The Voice of the People Doth Choose Iniquity

Ian and Jim discuss the ascendancy of the wickedest person ever to assume the Presidency of the United States. 

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the very latest episode of

(00:17):
Inside Out.
I'm Ian Wilkes and I'm here withmy wonderful, inspiring podcast
partner, the one and true onlyJim Bennett.

SPEAKER_01 (00:29):
Hello,

SPEAKER_02 (00:30):
how are you?
It is me starting off in themost enthusiastic, excited way,
and you are struggling to matchmy enthusiasm.

SPEAKER_01 (00:40):
Well, I'm struggling to match a lot of enthusiasm
these days, at least these lastfew days.
Anyway...
But I interrupted you.
You were introducing thepodcast.
That's okay.

SPEAKER_02 (00:55):
I'm really excited and interested to talk about the
U.S.
election.
I think it's a major event.
I think it impacts not justAmericans, but people across the
world.
I'd like to get into some ofthat.
I'd love to have a, if we can, abalanced conversation about it.
You know, there are people atall political persuasions.

(01:16):
But I just want to, again,extend a warm welcome to all the
listeners to the Only True andLiving podcast.
upon the face of the earth, inwhom the Lord is somewhat
pleased, I think, with us.
We'll see where, you know, we'lltry to see what he thinks about
what's going on in the world.
I think if there's any time weneed the Lord, Jim, you know, in
the second coming, and I said itbefore, I think now would be a

(01:39):
good time.

SPEAKER_01 (01:40):
I think now would be a good time as well.
A little bit of housekeeping.
We have actually recordedanother podcast where we
continued answering those surveyquestions, and I want people to
listen to know that that we wantto answer all those survey
questions.
But we have sort of interjectedthis because the world has

(02:01):
changed dramatically since ourlast episode release.
And so we thought we probablyneed to be able to discuss this.
So I just wanted to let peopleknow that we haven't dropped the
ball on the survey questions.
We're going to continue toanswer those.
But today we're going to talkabout the end of the world.
That's how I see it at themoment.

SPEAKER_02 (02:21):
Yes, I appreciate you bringing that up about the
questionnaire, because I'mreally enjoying getting to those
questions at that survey thatthe church did.
So again, check back in soon.
We'll have that thirdinstallment of that review of
the survey questions there fromthe church shortly.
The election of Donald Trump,the 47th president of the United

(02:43):
States, and the signing of wellover 100...
Executive orders, 130 executiveorders, major decisions.
And I just noticed there,breaking news, that Trump signs
new executive order as part of acrackdown with US-Mexico border.
I have to say from the outsetthat I think we can agree that

(03:09):
there are many challenges facingAmerica and the world.
Immigration is not just aproblem in US, it's a problem in
UK, for example.
Economic security is achallenge, food security, energy
security.
These are all understandable,common areas of shared concern

(03:30):
across the world.
Right now, for example, here Iam in Canada, and the last 10
days, the politicians here havebeen scrambling.
We've had a resignation ofJustin Trudeau, who I believe
Trump is taking credit for, andhis demise was well before His
demise was in the making for thelast year or so because of a

(03:53):
whole series of corruptions andscandal going on within Canada.
Nothing to do with Trump.
Trump can't take any credit forthat.
Notwithstanding, we're seeingpolitical, significant political
changes here in Canada.
And we're seeing now the threatof 25% tariffs being placed on a
whole range of raft of Canadiangoods and services.
And the politicians herescrambling to to try to come up

(04:17):
with a solution how to deal withtrump uh part two part one point
two um so we you know the wholecountry's talking about it uh my
friends colleagues are talkingabout it it's affecting business
here there's concerns about whatthat means for business for um a
whole range of public policies,the economy of Canada.

(04:41):
Canada is about the tenth sizeeconomically of the U.S., very
insignificant militarily,economically.
When Canada goes to tradenegotiations with the U.S., the
analogy is that Canada is likegoing to a gunfight with a
knife.

(05:02):
Right.
The size and scale differencebetween Canada and the US in
terms of power is significant.
It's interesting because I thinkTrump is talking about a
political union, theconvergence, if you like, Canada
being the 51st state of theUnited States.

(05:23):
So not just an economic union,but a political one.
That's not gone down very well.
However, that said, There arepeople in Canada, many, and me
to some extent, open to the ideaof an economic union with the
United States.
I see a lot of advantages, a lotof benefits from that.
So these big announcements,these big executive orders,

(05:45):
which Trump has signed, 130thereabouts, some are very
controversial.
We can look at that.
The release of the January 6thperpetrators is interesting.
I'd love to talk about, get youropinion on that.
You know, when he's got hishand, you know, the oath of the

(06:06):
signing in of the oath and thepresident's speaking the oath
there to the presence in theconstitution, interesting how it
reconciles that with being aconvicted felon and then
releasing people who committedfelony and treason.
under the law of the US.
I'd love to get into that withyou.

(06:26):
But back home here in Canada, wewere all panicking.
We're scrambling, panicking,maybe panicking, not yet.
We'll see.
He said that tariffs will beimplemented February 1.
Then he's changed the date.
But there's quite a bit ofpanic.
Probably panic is the rightword.
There's concern over the Unionof Canada.
Alberta's broken off and wantsto develop its own energy

(06:50):
program with the U.S.
It's concerned that it didn'twant to get it by the tariffs.
So a whole series, a raft ofexecutive orders.
Some I think are okay.
We can get into that maybe.
Some are very controversial.
But just to get your initialhigh-level reaction, your
thoughts and feelings on this,the election, you know, the

(07:12):
first day or so with PresidentTrump and what you think is
going on.
And then we'll go from there andwe'll see where this
conversation goes.

SPEAKER_01 (07:20):
Okay.
I don't know where to start.
I don't...
So, again...

SPEAKER_02 (07:33):
Can I help you?
Sorry to interrupt.
Can I help you?
Sorry, because I know this isdifficult.
Any, you see any good things,uh, forecasted or in the first
couple of days, anything good?

SPEAKER_01 (07:46):
No.

SPEAKER_02 (07:48):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (07:49):
I mean, the only good I can think of is that it's
so bad that maybe it willinspire, um, inspire enough
resistance that we'll be able tocome out of it intact.
But I don't even see thatbecause I did not think that

(08:12):
Trump was going to be elected.
I did not think that we werethis fallen as a nation.
And we are.
And so, no, I don't see anythinggood within the last couple of
days.
I was texting a friend who Isaid, I thought this is worse

(08:33):
than I imagined it would be.
And I imagined it would bepretty awful.
So this is not a politicalpodcast.
And so I want to frame this interms of the purpose of the
podcast, which is exploring thechurch from the inside and from
the outside.
And my biggest negative reactionto this is what it says about

(08:57):
our church and about our faith.
And, you know, I've got a bunchof...
I've gone off of Twitter.
I no longer go to...
The only thing I post on Twitterare links to our episodes.
And my Twitter account isprivate, so you can only see my
tweets if you follow me.
And I'm not accepting any newfollowers, and I don't go to

(09:20):
Twitter.
But a friend of mine pointed outthat there's an account on
Twitter that I don't know.
It's an anonymous account.
But they screenshotted me fromBlue Sky, which is where I'm
posting now.
And I recommend anybody, you cancome find me,
jimbennett.bsky.social is myhandle and my username.

(09:50):
But they screenshotted it, andwhat I had said was, it's a
cruel irony that we'reinaugurating fascism on Martin
Luther King Day.
And they screenshotted it andthey just said, something like
Jim is lost to TDS.

(10:12):
TDS being Trump derangementsyndrome.
And then a whole lot of membersof the church were like, oh
yeah, he's terrible, he's lost.
One guy's like, I used torespect him and now he's gone
because...
And as I looked at that, it'sthe first time I've looked at
anything on Twitter for months.

(10:34):
I just thought, it's not justhow far we've fallen as a
nation, it's how far we'vefallen as a church.
If people can see opposition toDonald Trump as somehow
faithless, I mean, the onlycriticism, I didn't say anything
about the church.
My only criticism was aboutDonald Trump, and the criticism

(10:55):
I'm getting from fellow churchmembers is, Jim Bennett is
faithless because look how muchhe has disturbed people.
by Donald Trump.
And I talk about the crisis offaith that I had after the
election and that I'm stillhaving to some degree.

(11:19):
I mean, I made peace with it.
I was wrestling with the idea,do I need to quit the Tabernacle
Choir?
And thankfully, we weren't askedto perform at the inauguration.
I wouldn't have performed at theinauguration.
Actually, we were asked toperform at the inauguration of
Spencer Cox, the Utah governor.
And I've got no real beef withSpencer Cox, but I chose not to

(11:43):
participate in that just becauseany connection to politics at
the moment is not good for mymental health.
It's just, I've gotten throughthe time between the election
and the time of the inaugurationby literally ignoring I won't

(12:04):
look at his face.
I won't listen to his voice.
And I'm hesitant to even callhim by name.
It's just so loathsome and soloathsome because of my faith,
not in spite of my faith, not asa departure from my faith.

(12:29):
Everything I have been taught bythe Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints runs contraryto everything that Agent Orange
stands for.
And that's what I'm calling himthese days.
Everything he represents.
And so here we have theinauguration.
Here we have the inauguralspeech, which I did not watch,

(12:52):
but which I have read the newsabout and I've seen the
executive orders.
And we've already begunpreparing for concentration
camps, preparing for massdeportations.
He's going to begin by sending1,500 troops to the border.
He is going to send militaryunits into the streets of

(13:12):
Chicago to begin the massdeportations, which are contrary
to the position of the church,which the church has taken very
strong.
When he was president last time,the church spoke out against his
immigration proposals.
The church's policy positions onimmigrations run entirely

(13:34):
contrary to what's beingproposed now.
And yet somehow I'm faithlessbecause I oppose this man, this
odious, vile, vicious man whohas committed sexual assault,
who is a convicted felon, whotried to overthrow the
government, Somehow my faith isin question because I find this

(14:00):
unsettling.
I'm somehow deranged because Ifind this unacceptable.
And it is.
It's entirely unacceptable.
So the difficulty I have talkingabout this as if this is normal
is that it is not normal.

(14:21):
Or it should not be normal, butit has become normal.
The fact that now all of thosecharges against Trump have been
dismissed because he's nowpresident.
He will not be punished for hisfelonies.
Thankfully, the felonies willstill be on his record.
He can't say he's not a felon,but they waived all punishment
for any of that.

(14:44):
We now live in a country, or atleast I live in a country.
I'd very much like to live inyour country because my country
now no longer believes in therule of law.
My country no longer believesthat it's unacceptable to try to
overthrow the government.
He has pardoned 1,500 people whoengaged in violent riots that

(15:08):
left five people dead and weresummarily sentenced for their
crimes.
And he has pardoned all of them,1,500 people, including people
who assault police officers.
Republicans are supposed to bethe law and order party?
And somebody was asking him,he's like, well, why did you

(15:31):
pardon this guy who tased apolice officer and put him in
the hospital?
And his only answer was, well, Idon't know.
I mean, we have gone through thelooking glass.
We are on the other side to thepoint where we no longer believe
in the rule of law.
We no longer believe thatdecency matters.

(15:54):
See, this is the thing thatdrives me nuts about this, is
that it's not that I'mpolitically opposed to him.
It is that I am morally opposedto him.
And the fact that people cannotsee that difference, the fact
that people frame this as, well,here's his one policy I like,

(16:15):
but I don't like that policy.
I'm going to talk about this.
It's the Bart Simpson, you know,when Sideshow Bob was running
for mayor.
And Homer Simpson goes, well, Idon't like his kill Bart policy,
but I do like his kill Selmapolicy.
I mean, you can't normalize thisand not come away damaged as a
nation.

(16:36):
I posted on Facebook that all ofus can now remember where we
were when America ended.
And I really feel that way.
I feel like America has ended.
It's not like democracy is atrisk.
Democracy essentially is over.
because we have simply turnedover our morality, our decency

(16:57):
to a man who has none of his ownand is willing to just take all
of ours and burn it on the altarof sacrifice to power and
mendacity and evil.
So, you know, So that's my frameof mind.

(17:19):
So I'm more than happy to answerspecific questions and engage in
a specific discussion, but I amnot coming at this as, well,
geez, I'm going to weigh somegood policy proposals with some
bad policy proposals.
I'm coming at this with, we havejust elected Satan.

(17:39):
And I can't imagine Satan beinga worse person person than
Donald, he's just, he's evil.
I live in a country that has nowsigned up for fascism and we

(18:00):
have an evil, evil want to bedictator who will very likely
succeed at being a dictator, Ithink, as time goes forward.
So that's where I am.
Where are you?

SPEAKER_02 (18:15):
I'm worried about...
I just wanted to say, by theway, you were right to remind us
and certainly remind ourlisteners that we're not a
political podcast.
We're a religious podcast.
We need to always make thatcorrelation between the church

(18:37):
and state.
And by the way, I think thechurch sent two apostles to the
inauguration.
And I give you my naturalinstinct response from that, and
I think it's reliable.
I think it's very consistentwith the way a lot of people
might feel, maybe.
And my interpretation of that isthat the church endorses Donald

(18:58):
Trump.
If you don't agree with someone,you don't show up at their
inauguration.
I mean, you deliberately do notshow, and you make a statement.
saying why you're not showingand you don't agree with some of
the policies.
I can only presume that thechurch, by sending the two
apostles, agree with and endorseand support Donald Trump, which

(19:26):
is worrying.
The church says it doesn't takea position politically.
Does he send to everyinauguration then?
I think it probably does sendsomeone, some representative
then.
Is that right?

SPEAKER_01 (19:38):
Well, I had a conversation with Mike Levitt,
who is the president of theTabernacle Choir and former
governor of Utah and actually aformer cabinet secretary of
Health and Human Services in theBush administration.
And the conversation was aboutmy concern that the choir was
going to be asked to sing at theinauguration.

(20:04):
And he told me that they had notbeen asked.
And that if they had been asked,it would have been difficult for
us to do it because we werepreparing to go to Peru on tour.
But he told me a story aboutPresident Hinckley coming to his
inauguration when he wasinaugurated as Utah's governor

(20:27):
in 1992.
He was elected the same year myfather was elected to the
Senate.
He and my father were very goodfriends.
He spoke at my father's funeral.
And he said that PresidentHinckley said to him, I want you
to know, Governor Leavitt, thatwe're not here for you.
We're here out of respect foryour office.

(20:48):
And he insisted, and I believethe church believes this, he
insisted that when the choirsang the last time at the Trump
inauguration in 2017, that theywere there to honor him.
the presidency, not to honor thepresident.

(21:10):
And I do believe that that wasthe thinking behind what the
apostles did.
And I do think they sendapostles to inaugurations.
I think that this is normal.
But there's that word again,because we're treating something
that isn't normal as normal,which is a problem.
Somebody else also made thepoint that in 2020, It took the

(21:34):
church three weeks toacknowledge President Biden's
victory and to publiclycongratulate him.
They publicly congratulatedDonald Trump the day after the
election.
So there's a disparity there intheir willingness to just

(21:55):
quickly acknowledge, whereas JoeBiden had won the election I
mean, you can say, well, theoutcome wasn't as certain the
day after.
Well, that's true.
It was certain within two days.
You didn't have to wait threeweeks, but they did, and they

(22:17):
didn't wait three weeks forDonald Trump.
They very happily and cheerfullycongratulated him the day after
the election.
So I don't think church leaders—see this as an endorsement.
I think church leaders see thisas normal.

(22:39):
But that's the problem.
That's the problem.
It was the problem allthroughout the campaign that the
church treated this like justanother election.
And it wasn't.
It wasn't just another election.
This was an election where wevoted to end constitutional

(22:59):
protections.
Already, Donald Trump has issuedan executive order nullifying
the 14th Amendment to theConstitution, which says that
every person born in the UnitedStates is a citizen of the
United States.
And by executive order, DonaldTrump has said that is no longer
true.

(23:19):
Now, this will be subject tocourt challenges, and it may
very well be that Donald Trumpis unsuccessful in nullifying an
amendment to the Constitutionunilaterally.
But it's not a sure thing.
This is where we are now.

(23:42):
We are where, geez, when DonaldTrump does something that is on
its face blatantlyunconstitutional, we don't know
whether or not that's going tobe held up.
We don't know if theConstitution is going to
continue to stand.
He has gotten people on theSupreme Court who have told him
that what he does is thatessentially he is above the law,

(24:06):
that he is immune fromprosecution, even if he commits
criminal acts while he is inoffice.
So, I mean, that's terrifying.
And, you know...
And the church, we're the onesthat continue to say that the
Constitution is inspired andthat we're the ones who will
save the Constitution as ithangs by a thread.

(24:28):
And here we are handing thescissors to the guy who's trying
to cut the thread in as manyplaces as he possibly can.
I wanted

SPEAKER_02 (24:40):
to talk to you about this, about the relationship
between the church and Trump.
You know, they...
sent to apostles.
They've done that before.
It's fairly common custom.
We use the word normal.
Things certainly are not normal.
In normal circumstances, I canunderstand the church sending a

(25:04):
delegation of leaders, whoeverwins.
I get that.
It's important the church has agood relationship with the
federal government.
However, it's also important ofthe church, being the only true
church on the earth, to take astand when things are screwing.
I'm not normal, and we areliving in a very strange,
unusual, and abnormal period.

(25:27):
You asked me for my reaction, myconcern.
As a non-American Canadian,Brits, or you Brit-Canadian
here, I'm concerned about theeconomy in Canada.
It could have a pretty severeimpact on people.
the Canadian economy as a whole,so that's a factor.

(25:51):
I'm concerned that the termguardrails that most democratic
nations have in place with andfor their leaders, in the US
those guardrails now I think arebeing bulldozed down, smashed,

(26:12):
changed, modified, reorganized.
I think it's a radical shakeupof the American political
system.
Those political guardrails,those guardrails that keep
presidents in checks, thosechecks and balances, which you

(26:33):
need.
You can't have one individualwho's got supreme ultimate
power.
They end up becoming...
Like Darth Vader or the Emperor,the Supreme High Lord Commander
who dictates every single thingand controls everything, a
dictator essentially, anindividual who has no respect

(26:55):
for law.
I think when that happens, andit's certainly happening in the
UK as well, a lot of laws havebeen modified and changed
constantly you know, our system,we have a parliamentary system,
you have a very differentsystem.
But my concern with the, um,with Trump is, you know, where's

(27:18):
the checks and balances?
Where's the guardrails?
Where's the respect for law?
I, you know, when I was watchingthe inauguration, uh, it didn't,
I don't think he put his hand onthe Bible.
No, he didn't.
He didn't put his hand on theBible.
Anyway, the Bible was used as a,a, um, you know, it's always
been used, traditional, uh,symbol of truth and divinity and

(27:44):
allegiance to God.
And Trump, as a Christian, hebelieves that.
He believes that his life wasspared to save America again.
Angels were watching him andguarding him and making sure
that he wasn't assassinated.

(28:07):
because he needed to fulfill agreater purpose, a greater
destiny, and that was God-given.
So he has a relationship withhis faith.
That's very important to him.
The two problems I've got isthat when he is raising his
right hand to uphold theConstitution of the United

(28:28):
States and make these othercommitments, the first thought I
had was, how does that work ifyou're a convicted felon?
how do you put your right handup and support the very
foundations of America and theprinciples from which America
was based on, the standards andthe values, which were inspired,

(28:50):
I believe, in the church.
You said that the churchbelieves that and holds that
position.
Yet you have someone here who isabove the law, who is a
convicted felon.
There's also, while...
Staying on this theme, there'salso Trump's reaction to the
sermon that was delivered by thechurch minister there.

(29:12):
I think it was yesterday.
I don't have a name, if you'llforgive me.
I did watch the video.
I did send you a message onthat.
And for our listeners, if youhaven't seen that, if you just
go put in Trump church ministerresponse, the minister, I

SPEAKER_01 (29:31):
think it was yesterday.
Yes.
Her name is Marianne EdgarBudde, or Budde, B-U-D-D-E.
I'm not sure how to pronounceit.

SPEAKER_02 (29:40):
Okay.
I couldn't remember her name.

SPEAKER_01 (29:42):
She's an Episcopal bishop.

SPEAKER_02 (29:45):
She's a bishop.
Yeah, she's a minister.
She's a bishop for the church.
She gave an inspiring talk,remarks, comments, communicated
directly, looked straight atPresident Trump in the
congregation and talked aboutMany people in the country are
worried, they're concerned,they're frightened.

(30:08):
She talked about the rights ofgay rights and LGBTQ rights,
etc.
And she pleaded with him to showkindness and mercy.
She pleaded with him to considerkindness and mercy in his
immigration policies.
You know, I can understand to anextent, limited extent, There's

(30:30):
a major problem in America withregards to immigration.
It is a problem.
But I don't think Trump has...
This hammer solution is not thesolution.
And the minister there, thebishop there, was speaking about
pleading with Trump to take athoughtful, careful, respectful,

(30:52):
and measured response.
That's what I got from that.
As I listened to that video acouple of times, I could not
find fault with anything thatshe said.
However, Trump's comments, hesays here that he's found her,
he said, President Trump calledremarks by the Bishop of the
National Cathedral nasty in toneonly hours after she delivered a

(31:17):
plea to have mercy on immigrantand refugee families and LGBTQ
Americans.
That is disturbing.
If something like that cannotreach the present United States,
then he's, as the Book of Mormonteaches, as Nephi taught, he's

(31:39):
past feeling.
And I think that's thesituation, Jim.
I think Trump is past feeling.
I believe his relationships arealmost entirely transactional.
And something else I heard on anews commentary that in order to
reach him, to connect with him,to engage him, even to have some

(32:00):
level of success with him, youhave to deliver on his terms.
And his terms are what's bestfor him.
Not America, necessarily,clearly, not America, not
American people, perhaps a lotof them, maybe some of them, but
if it ticks all over hispersonal political boxes, it

(32:24):
makes him look good.
And it's clear, and you don'twant to listen to him, and I can
understand that.
A lot of the time he grates me.
But every time he opens hismouth, almost every time, if not
every time, he talks about howgreat he is, and this wouldn't
have happened if he was thepresident.

(32:45):
This would have happened if hewas president.
And that was his idea.
It's all about, and it's soobvious to me, directing credit
and attention to himself it's apersonal ego uh egomaniac is the
word i would use he's like a hesees himself as a demigod and if

(33:05):
you don't engage him or don'tmeet his terms or doesn't make
him if he makes him look goodand powerful and gets him you
know everyone talking about himi mean all the mainstream media
you know if i go to the bbc andthe itv news websites now and
other ones that i follow there'sa couple in america Almost, not
every line, but almost everyline and sub-headline is him.

(33:26):
He's dominating the media.
And he loves that.
He loves the media attention.
He loves the credits.
Anything else not working, it'sbecause he's not involved and
that's why it's failing.
If it's successful, it's becausehis hand is in it.
He's got his hand in it.

(33:46):
So my reaction, I'm veryworried.
putting it mildly.
I'm concerned about, obviously,how it impacts my family, you
know, our life here in Canada.
There's economics there.
I'm concerned that there's acomplete disrespect to the rule

(34:06):
of law.
The laws simply don't matternow.
I think, you know, for someoneto commit these kind of crimes
and to evade any punishment is,I mean, the Book of Mormon in
Alma 42 says One of my favoritechapters talks about the
relationship between mercy andjustice, right?
And so when we commit a crime, asin or a crime, we'll do

(34:30):
something wrong.
The church clearly, and you andI taught this, been taught this,
taught this, continue to teachthis and learn from this, has a
process for repentance andforgiveness.
So we make a mistake.
We say sorry.
Well, first of all, weacknowledge that we made a

(34:50):
mistake.
We acknowledge that we werewrong.
I'm trying to remember thatsimple pattern that the church
taught, that we taught asmissionaries all those years
ago.
We recognize that we didsomething wrong.
We say sorry.
We repent.
We then try to restore it.
We try to fix it.
And then we learn from it anddon't do it again.

(35:11):
And then from there, we learnthat hopefully we have, because
we are forgiven, we have animproved capacity to forgive
others because they makemistakes.
And we also teach strongly thatwe obey the law and that we
uphold the law and we honormagistrates, kings and queens,
and we uphold the law.

(35:31):
That's what we say as a church.
That's what we teach themembers.
And Trump, unfortunately, livesin a very different world.
He has no respect for the law.
He's broken the law.
He's evaded punishment.
And to me, that defeats andfrustrates the fundamental

(35:52):
principles, not just of thechurch, but of the human
experience.
Whereas it's like the law of thejungle.
You can go and do whatever youwant, regardless.
And don't worry, there are noconsequences.
There are no guardrails.
There's no accountability.

(36:13):
And if people are askingquestions about your
accountability, well, let'sdeflect them.
Let's redirect them ontosomething else.
Let's talk about those things inorder to deflect away from the
real intent, the real agendathat Trump has got.
And so that's my...

(36:33):
I've got a lot more than justthat, to be honest.
But they're some of my initialthoughts and concerns.
I want to ask you, Jim...
What do you think is theultimate intent of Trump?
What is he trying to achieve?

(36:54):
Is he genuine about wanting tomake America again?
And I'm sure there's some truthto that.
Or is there another motive,ulterior motive here, which is
what I said earlier?
Is it ultimately about him andhis legacy and how he marks
himself or influences hisPosition in history is it those

(37:16):
two or is it is it those two oris it more?
What do you think sir behind hismotive ultimately?
What is he trying to achieve?

SPEAKER_01 (37:26):
That's an actually very simple question to answer
This is a man with severenarcissistic personality
malignant narcissism malignantnarcissist personality disorder
and This is a man who ispsychologically incapable of
empathy, psychologicallyincapable of seeing anything

(37:51):
from anyone else's point ofview, and psychologically
incapable of anything beyond atransactional relationship.
I mean, this is a pathology.
This isn't just that he's evil,which he is.
It's that he does not have thecapacity to care about anything

(38:17):
beyond himself and not justhimself, but beyond the moment
in which he finds himself.
He cannot, one of the thingsthat was so startling on the
campaign trail and still justdrives me absolutely nuts is
that we overlooked it and didn'tcare is, for instance, in the

(38:43):
debate where Kamala Harris justdestroyed him, which it didn't
matter because he won, but shedestroyed him by getting him to
say ridiculous things becausehe's not capable of letting
anything go.
So All of his advisors weresaying, you need to talk about

(39:07):
inflation.
You need to talk aboutimmigration.
You need to talk about issues.
And instead, all Kamala Harrishas to do is bait him into
saying they're eating the dogs,they're eating the cats, because
he can't let it go.
And this Episcopal bishop, says,I mean, she was very blunt, but

(39:32):
she wasn't particularly cruel.
She didn't call him names.
She didn't insult him.
She said, I hope you will havemercy on all of these people who
are afraid.
And he can't just let that go.
I mean, he's frickin' presidentof the United States with more
power than any president of theUnited States has ever had

(39:54):
because he has spent the pastfour years, past eight years,
dismantling, as you call them,the guardrails that have
protected us from a president'sworst instincts prior to now.
And those guardrails are nowentirely gone.
And so having an Episcopalbishop you know, say have mercy

(40:18):
on you should be something youkind of just laugh off and move
on.
Or if you had any shred ofdecency, something you should
actively consider and do.
But he can't do that.
He's not capable of doing that.
He's not capable of empathy.
He is not capable of envisioninga future of any kind.

(40:44):
Everything he does istransactional everything he does
is to satisfy an immediateappetite right in the moment and
this is the this is the onething that has the potential to
save us is that that breedstotal and utter incompetence and

(41:07):
trump is totally and utterlyincompetent so uh What saved us
in 2016 and in those four yearswas that he surrounded himself
with competent people.
And he ended up firing all ofthem because he couldn't stand
them.
He'll end up firing all theincompetent people that he's

(41:29):
just hired because he can'tstand it if anybody else is
successful.
He can't stand it if anybodyelse gets the limelight.
It is all this black hole ofinsatiable need Everything he
does.
But the reason why theincompetence won't save us is

(41:50):
that he has surrounded himselfwith people who will encourage
it and will execute on it.
Whereas before, he wassurrounded by people who would
at least push back, at least tosome degree.
And they get fired, and thensomebody else gets hired, and
they get fired.
And It's going to continue to belike that.

(42:13):
One of the things that peoplearen't talking about as much as
they need to, but it shows justhow abnormal this is.
Every president prior to DonaldTrump released all their
financial information prior tobecoming president.
He's the first president tonever, we've never had him

(42:36):
release his tax returns.
But More importantly, they'vealso divested themselves of all
of the investments that wouldenrich them if they were
president.
If you remember, Dick Cheneycame under fire because it took
him a little while to get out ofHalliburton Oil, where he, I

(42:58):
think he was the CEO, or atleast he was on the board.
He had a lot of Halliburtonstock and he sold all of them.
when he became vice president,because he recognized that would
be a clear conflict of interestand it would violate the
constitutional emolumentsclause, which insists that you
cannot benefit from foreigngovernments or foreign nationals

(43:23):
paying you if you are presidentof the United States.
This is in the constitution andit was completely ignored,
Trump's first term, And now itis so blatantly ignored in the
sense that Trump created a newcryptocurrency right before the

(43:44):
inauguration that is now worthon paper upwards of$3 billion to
him.
I think the total marketcapitalization is higher than
that, but his cut of it, hecreated$3 billion out of
nothing.
And now foreign nationals andforeign governments can buy up

(44:08):
this mean coin as much as theywant to and enrich Donald Trump.
And it's just absolutely theopposite of what the
Constitution says is legal.
And there will be noconsequence.
And there's no mechanism forconsequence.

(44:29):
The only way...
we can say this is bad is if twothirds of Republicans in the
Senate, well, two thirds of thesenators, but which would
require, you know, at least 20or so Republicans to impeach
him, to convict him.

(44:50):
And he's been impeached twice.
Both times it was an open andshut case that he had done what
he was accused of doing.
But since impeachment is apolitical process and not a
legal process, you can ignoreblatant unconstitutional crimes.
This is bribery.
The impeachment clause says forbribery or other high crimes and

(45:16):
misdemeanors.
But bribery is singled out asthe one crime that is absolutely
impeachable.
And here he is setting up amechanism where anybody in the
world can bribe him, and we cansee it happen in broad daylight,
and he just laughs.

(45:37):
What are you gonna do?
What are you gonna do?
There's nothing we can do.
And this is now normal.
This is now normal.
When we were furious that ittook Dick Cheney too much time
to sell his stock, we're now ata place where, oh, here, you
want$3 billion based on anon-asset?

(45:57):
that is just a vehicle for moneylaundering, for people to throw
money at you, here it is.
Enjoy.
This is where we are.
This is what is normal.
This is why I say the UnitedStates, it's not that, oh, the
country's in danger.
The country is pretty much over.
Can we rebuild the country infour years?

(46:20):
I doubt it.
But because we're already ontrack to just destroying all of
the rule of law that has held ustogether as a country until
then.
And it's just going to getuglier and uglier and uglier.
And I know I'm ranting a littletoo long.
One quick other thing, becauseagain, this is not a political

(46:40):
podcast.
This is a religious podcast.
Latter-day Saints voted forDonald Trump by a margin of two
to one.
I think it was smaller thantheir margin in 2016.
I think it was about the same asthe margin which Latter-day
Saints voted for Donald Trump in2020 when he lost.

(47:04):
But two-thirds of Latter-daySaints, roughly, voted for
Donald Trump thinking thatDonald Trump is their friend,
that Donald Trump is a friend tothe church.
that Donald Trump represents theinterests of the church.

(47:24):
Nothing could be further fromthe truth because the people who
enable Donald Trump, the peoplethat Donald Trump turns to for
religious and theological adviceare people who hate Latter-day
Saints far more than they hateDemocrats.

(47:46):
They are more than happy to takeour votes When we are useful,
take our votes, take our money.
When we are useful, we are nolonger useful to Donald Trump.
We may be useful to theRepublican party at large, but
Donald Trump has absolutely noincentive.

(48:08):
to do anything but screw overLatter-day Saints.
And remembering that this is aman who is nothing but
transactional, is so venal thatall he wants to do is get
revenge.
Who does he hate more thananybody else in terms of elected
officials?
Who was the only Republican thatvoted to convict him in the

(48:30):
United States Senate who was amember of the Republican Party?
That man was Mitt Romney.
That man was a Latter-day Saint.
and before, the man is aLatter-day Saint, and before
Donald Trump decided he neededMormon votes, he said awful
things about the church.

(48:50):
His advisors have said awfulthings about the church.
And I really think that all ofthese mega Mormons are in for a
rude awakening as all of thisstuff comes to unravel and all
of the people come to collectfrom Donald Trump, the favors,
the first people to be thrownunder the bus are going to be

(49:12):
the Latter-day Saints.
You can take that to the bank.
So there, there's my rant.
I'm sounding pretty depressing,aren't I?
Well, I...

SPEAKER_02 (49:27):
The thing is, there is...
You know, a feeling ofdepression is not unfounded.
I mean, there's a real...
This is...
It's hard to find the word.
This is a whole different scale.
It's on a different...
It's in a different universe.
It's not even in the sameuniverse.

(49:47):
It's...
I can't find the word.
It's monumental.
It's cataclysmic.
It's apocalyptic.
It continues on the trajectoryof some of the things he wants
to do.
It's going to be...
upheaval.
I just want to go back to, youwere talking a bit about the

(50:09):
nature of the man, and rightlyso, because he's driven by his
nature, you know, the nature ofthe man.
We talk about the nature of theman, right?
And then just going back to whatI thought was an extraordinary
and very kind and very balancedmessage from the Bishop Marian
Edgar Boudet, if I pronounced itright, you know, who led the

(50:33):
National Cathedral PrayerService at the inauguration.
She talked about, you know, sheurged him to show mercy and to
scare individuals, you know,gay, lesbian, transgender
children.
She said, you know, these arechildren in Democratic,
Republican, independentfamilies, some who said were
feeling for their lives.

(50:53):
She talked about the vastmajority of immigrants are not
criminals.
They pay taxes and are goodneighbors.
They are faithful members of ourchurches, mosques, and
synagogues, gurdwara, andtemples.
And she also added, God teachesus that we are to be merciful to
the stranger, but we wantstrangers in this land.
I thought it was a beautifulmessage.

(51:14):
And then to the nature of theman, in a very lengthy rant on
his social media platform, hedescribed...
Bishop Boudet as a radical lefthardline Trump hater, adding
that she brought her church intothe world of politics in a very
ungracious way, and hecriticized her tone as nasty.

(51:38):
He also described the service asboring, uninspiring, and she
owes an apology, needs todeliver a public apology.
That's By any normal standards,just an extraordinary response
to what is a very thoughtful andvery kind plea to the present

(51:59):
United States of America.
It's not just quiet and lookingin disdain, right?
Putting your head down whilstyou're speaking and then leaving
it there to what you saidearlier.
The fact is reacting with furyand anger to something like
that.
It just speaks to the nature ofthe man.

(52:19):
which you spoke to earlier.
Another reaction I'd like to getfrom you, maybe that's not the
right word because I don't wantto cause you any more discomfort
than what you're going throughalready, but I really would like
to get your opinion on this aswell.
That was the remarks that ElonMusk gave during, I think it was

(52:43):
just the, was it the justpost-election gathering?
where Trump had been elected, ofcourse.
And he described the Trump,sorry, Elon Musk described the
event as no ordinary politicalevent.

(53:06):
He said, this one reallymattered.
Thank you for making it happen.
Thank you.
He then, he also talked aboutthis being a juncture or a
turning point in civilization,or words to that effect.
And then at some point, halfwaythrough or towards the end of
his remarks, he appeared to givewhat many are calling a Nazi

(53:31):
salute, not just once, twice.
I watched it.
To me, it appears that as thoughhe thumped his heart first and
then he gave the salute.
And so I was maybe thinking itwasn't a Nazi salute.
It could have been.
If it was, it was stupid anddisturbing.

(53:51):
And it may have been a Nazisalute.
I think we have to...
I think that also speaks tothe...
The answer to that question isalso, is that the nature of the
man?
But he turned around, facing thepeople behind him, and he gave a
second what appeared to be aNazi salute.
I was shocked by that.

(54:12):
Even if it wasn't that...
It's a very stupid thing to do.
That salute originally, I think,came from the Romans.
The Roman Empire would give thatsalute.
I think it's in one of thegladiator movies where they tap
the chest and they saluteCaesar.
I think there's some historywith the Romans and the

(54:34):
gladiators.
And of course, with the Naziparty, that was a symbol salute
to swear allegiance andallegiance to Adolf Hitler and
his cause of fascism.
And so what was your reaction?
First of all, did you see that?
Of course.

(54:54):
And secondly, what's yourreaction to that?

SPEAKER_01 (54:59):
No, there's no way to miss it.
I mean, that's been all over thenews everywhere.
The sheer stupidity of ElonMusk, his brevity, I remember
the first time I ever heard hisname was on The Simpsons.
He was a guest star on TheSimpsons, and he did a terrible

(55:20):
vocal performance.
I remember thinking, this is theworst.
Whoever this guy is, he's aterrible, terrible voice actor.
This was several years ago.
But he was introduced on TheSimpsons as this colossal
genius.
who came down in a spaceship tovisit Homer Simpson.
And he was changing the worldwith his just...

(55:42):
And I went, I've never heard ofthis guy.
I didn't realize he was such agenius.
If you go watch Star Trek, Ithink it's either Star Trek
Enterprise or it might just beStar Trek Discovery.
I think it's Star TrekDiscovery, which is one of the
new Star Trek series.
They start talking about thegeniuses that shaped...

(56:03):
the history of the future.
You know, this takes place inthe 24th century and they talk
about Albert Einstein and ElonMusk in the same breath.
Elon Musk's name comes up inStar Trek.
And so, and Tesla, you know, isjust so amazed.

(56:23):
So, so initially my, my thoughtwas this guy must be some
amazing genius.
That's how he's being introducedto the world.
You can't trust Star Trek andThe Simpsons.
Who can you trust?
And what's become so apparent isthat this man is deeply, deeply
stupid.
He bought Twitter and ran itinto the ground to the point

(56:46):
where it has lost something liketwo-thirds of its user base.
It has lost more than two-thirdsof its value since it was
bought.

SPEAKER_02 (56:56):
He overpaid by$10 billion

SPEAKER_01 (56:58):
easily.

SPEAKER_02 (56:59):
Easily.
Idiot.

SPEAKER_01 (57:00):
And just an idiot.
And the way he managed it to thepoint where I can't ever, can't
use it again.
But over and over and overagain, this guy says things that
are stupid.
This guy does things that arestupid.
And is just a profoundly stupidman with enough money, more

(57:22):
money than the entire churchcombined in one pocketbook, the
richest man in the world.
So what he does, what he says,we have to pay attention to it.
We have no choice but to payattention to this stupid,
stupid, stupid man.
So I think it is possible.

(57:44):
I think it is possible that ElonMusk did not realize that what
he was doing was a Nazi salute.
I don't think it's likelybecause he is stupid, but I
don't think he is that stupidnot to be able to see the– this

(58:09):
is a guy who comments on worldevents, who has made statements
that have been interpreted asanti-Semitic, who talks about
his obsession with the RomanEmpire.
Some people are saying, oh, thisis a Roman salute.
This is a Nazi salute.
Well, yeah, the Nazi salute isthe Roman salute.
The swastika is the Gamodiancross.

(58:31):
Prior to World War II, theswastika was a symbol of peace.
It has since been co-opted.
The swastika was on fighter jetsin World War I, American fighter
planes.
I don't know if they had jets.
I think they were prop planes.
But the swastika was a symbol ofpeace.

(58:54):
prior to World War II and theNazi party co-opted it.
And now you cannot use theswastika and say, well, I'm
using it in a pre-World War IIcontext, which is essentially
what, well, it's a Roman salute,not a Nazi salute means.
Because first of all, the Romansweren't great folks either.

(59:20):
But second of all, It has beenco-opted by the Nazis.
The Romans were trying to createthe First Reich.
The Nazis were trying to createthe Third Reich.
They knew exactly what they weredoing when they co-opted the
Roman salute.
So every single person watchingthat salute knew exactly what it

(59:42):
was.
So I have to think that ElonMusk knew exactly what it was
and did it anyway.
And The media reports it like,well, gee, that was odd.
I wonder what he meant.
Golly, that was...
I mean, the headlines are thingslike, odd salute from Elon Musk.
It's not an odd salute.
It's a Nazi salute.

(01:00:04):
And everybody who saw it knowsit.
And this is the world we nowlive in.
We have to say the black iswhite and down is up and day is
night because...
Elon Musk says it is, and DonaldTrump says it is.
And this is where we are.
So, I mean, in the grand schemeof things, this is a stupid man

(01:00:28):
making a stupid gesture, makingan evil gesture.
It's not the same as setting uplegal bribery for the president
or trying to nullify theConstitution with an executive
order.
But it...
I don't think there is anythingelse that happened in the last
few days that so clearly,symbolically sums up where we

(01:00:53):
are than Elon Musk just in broaddaylight declaring that he is a
Nazi and declaring this isfascism.
Because that's what it was.
It's a declaration of fascism.
And if he had done that atBiden's administration...
The first person to scream athim and condemn him would have

(01:01:15):
been Joe Biden.
If he had done that at George W.
Bush's inauguration, any othernormal politician, Republican or
Democrat, you give a Nazi saluteat an inauguration and you're
canceled.
AOC did a video, said one of thebasic fundamental principles of

(01:01:38):
America is we hate Nazis.
It's not one of the basicfundamental principles of
America anymore.
We now have to make excuses forNazis.
That's where we are.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:50):
When I saw it, I was shocked.
And then I thought, well, Imean, I saw him thump his heart
the first time he did it.
I thought, well, as I lookedinto it, I thought, well, maybe
he didn't.
Maybe it was a stupid thing todo.
And he was using thatinadvertently, accidentally, if
you like, to show his...

(01:02:12):
joy, if you like.
I know that sounds very naive,and in hindsight, it is naive.
But when I look into the natureof the man again, it's clear it
was something more than just amistake, or appears to be much
more than a mistake.
Max Keiser, who was theexecutive officer of the Jewish

(01:02:34):
Council of Australia, said hebelieved that Musk had
unambiguously made a Nazi saluteand criticized the ADL for
defending the billionaire.
He said it was clear signal tohis rabid white nationalists and
neo-Nazi followers that healigns with their values.
He also talked about hisplatform X.
So this is the executive officeof the Jewish Council.

(01:03:02):
He said that Musk is well knownfrom...
I didn't know this actuallyuntil I researched it today, but
he's well known for promotingracist neo-Nazi content and has
recently endorsed the far-rightalternative in Germany, the AFT.
I did hear about that on thenews.
That's the geopolitical party.
And he goes on to say that weshould all be very concerned
that the right-hand man of themost powerful person in the

(01:03:23):
world is a Nazi.
The ADL continues to disgracethemselves by defending most
gesture while basicallyattacking expressions of
pro-Palestinian solidarity.
as anti-Semitic.
What's interesting, and I didn'tknow a great deal about that
side of Musk, who I agree withyou is very stupid and idiotic.

(01:03:44):
Even from a businessperspective, he's way overpaid
for Twitter.
And a lot of his Teslaoperations, when he gets
involved, begin to fail.
I think he's a genius when itcomes to ideas.
But when it comes to running andoperating a business, no chance.
There's no way I would have himin charge.
Here's me speaking as anon-billionaire, of course.

(01:04:07):
What's interesting is, andagain, I don't believe that,
accept that, on lots ofdifferent things, Musk is
intelligent because he isn't.
It's interesting that with thereactions and people seeing that
salute, the research and say,well, yeah, this is a Nazi

(01:04:28):
salute.
Even the people who've lookedinto it and weren't quite sure
at the beginning, and many ofthem have come to that
conclusion.
What are your thoughts thenabout the silence of Trump,
who's at the moment had notcommented, that I can see, on
Musk's Nazi salute?

(01:04:50):
I knew the question I have is,isn't it correct that the
church...
historically had somerelationship with the Nazi
Party.
When the Nazi Party was in powerright at the early stages, I
think this is even at the timeof when Adolf Hitler was getting

(01:05:10):
involved with the Nazi Party,that the church leaders met with
the Nazi leaders back then.
This is before the emergence ofthe Second World War in 1939,
sorry, 1939 to 1945.
Evidence seems to exist wherethe church leaders met with the
Nazi party.

(01:05:31):
And of course, that's before thewar and that relationship was in
place at that time.
But my first question is, whatdo you think to the silence of
Trump and Musk's Nazi salute?
What do you know, if anything,about the relationship?
Did the church have arelationship with the Nazi party
in the past?
What do you know about that?

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:53):
Well, to answer your first question, again, it's a
very simple answer, is thatTrump doesn't care.
If anything, Trump is happyabout it.
I think you sort of have to putyourself into the kind of feral
mindset, the reptilian brain,where everything is, how does

(01:06:14):
this affect me?
How does this hurt people Idon't like?
I think Trump is just gleefulabout at seeing all of the
hand-wringing and the complaintsbecause he looks at it and goes,
ha-ha, they can't do anything.
This is more proof that I win.

(01:06:34):
I mean, he's won everything.
It's not just he's won thepresidency.
He ran for president not becausehe wanted to be president.
He ran for president because ifhe didn't run for president,
he'd be in jail.
I mean, there's absolutely noquestion about that.
And so now he's won, and nowhe's untouchable.
And so I'm thinking that helooks at that and it's not even,

(01:06:56):
doesn't even occur to him tocondemn it.
And it's absolutely, I mean,this is the guy who said that
there were very fine people onboth sides, remember?
The neo-Nazis were marching inCharlottesville.
And so I think he's just, ha,ha, ha, ha.
So what if it was a Nazi salute?

(01:07:17):
Nothing you can do about it.
And is just relishing it.
Nothing brings him more joy thanthe suffering of his enemies.
Nothing makes him happier thanseeing his opponents miserable.
That's how transactional he is.
With regard to the church inNazi Germany, there are pictures

(01:07:38):
of my great-grandfather, HeberJ.
Grant, at some kind of confab inGermany prior to World War II
where there is a huge swastikaon a flag in the background.
And that picture has beenbrandished as proof that the
church was complicit with theNazis.
I think that that is a grossoverstatement.

(01:08:03):
because I think the church veryclearly, just as the church now
sent two apostles to theinauguration, the church then
felt it necessary to interactwith legitimate government of
countries that had members ofthe church.

(01:08:24):
And Germany had a fairly largemembership of the church in
comparison to other Europeancountries in the 30s.
And That picture was takenbefore World War II, before, you
know, so I think, yeah, thechurch was trying very hard to

(01:08:45):
get along with the government ofGermany, which at that point had
been elected legitimately, thesame way we've legitimately
elected fascism here.
And that took a dark turn.
And I don't think there is anyevidence of the church being
complicit with the Nazis oncethe war started.

(01:09:09):
Once the war started, I thinkthe church was very much on the
side of the Allies.
But you also have to account forthe story of Helmuth Huebner.
Helmuth Huebner was executed bythe Nazis at the age of 17.
And he had spent a great deal oftime opposing the Nazis, and he

(01:09:31):
was a Latter-day Saint.
To the church's, I think,everlasting shame, he was
excommunicated from the churchfor his activity against the
German government.
So I think that is probably thebest evidence that the church
was kind of on the wrong side tosome degree.

(01:09:53):
But I don't think that thechurch was collaborating with
the Nazi government.
The church was trying to do whatthey're trying to do now, which
is sit on the sidelines as eviltakes control.
And it didn't end well for thechurch in the 30s and the 40s.
It's not going to end well forthe church now.

UNKNOWN (01:10:16):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:16):
As we come into the end of the podcast, I want to
ask you for your thoughts onwhat might be the biggest
question I'm asking you in thisconversation.
With all that's going on, andwe're at the very beginning of
the Trump presidency, we'removing at breakneck speeds.

(01:10:37):
The speed itself is frightening.
The lack of attention, poorattention to detail.
You know, Trump doesn't likedetail.
He said that.
He is the big picture thinker.
Detail is not important to him.
We're seeing a whole series ofdecisions that are going to
impact all kinds of people indifferent ways.

(01:10:59):
What are your thoughts, Jim, onwhat the role of the church is
What the responsibility of thechurch leaders is at this time
in relation to this new Trumppresidency, what can it do?
What should it do?
What must it do to influenceTrump, if it can at all, to hold

(01:11:22):
him to account, to bring some ofthe guardrails back, to help
bring some of the checks andbalances back?
So there's a few questionsthere, but if I could summarize,
what do you think is or shouldbe the role of the church and
the church leaders, the prophet,to influence Trump for the

(01:11:45):
better and to bring some of thechurch values and principles
into the conversation toinfluence Trump and to also
communicate to the world thatthe church is concerned, it has
a role to play, It is themouthpiece of God.
We have a prophet on the earth.

(01:12:08):
And it's looking at thesituation very seriously and
taking responsibility for itsplaying position as the only
true church upon the face of theearth.
What's your thoughts on that,the role and responsibility of
the church and leaders inregards to the Trump presidency

(01:12:29):
and what can and should and mustit do going forward?

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:34):
Well, the role of the church is not political.
The role of the church is totestify of Jesus Christ and to
bring people to Christ.
So in that regard, I do notthink it is the role of the
church to be the politicalopposition to Donald Trump.

(01:12:56):
I do think it is the role of thechurch, and I think that it has
been the role of the church thatthe church, has not stepped up
to fulfill, which is to educateits membership on principles of

(01:13:17):
basic fundamental human decencyto the point where they can
recognize the evil that has justtaken office in the United
States.
I think where the church, Ithink, has let us down with
regard to Donald Trump is in itstreating of Donald Trump as

(01:13:41):
normal, as just anotherdevelopment, as just another
partisan difference betweenright and left, Republican,
Democrat, and not as afundamental threat to not just
American democracy, which Ireally insist is pretty much

(01:14:02):
over.
I mean, you think he's going tostep down after this term?
You think he's not going to runfor a third term?
What, just because theConstitution says he can't?
Well, he's already nullifying,he's nullified one amendment to
the Constitution.
What's another one?
He's taught many times that he'sgoing to run for a third term.

(01:14:25):
And he's going to make it sothat running for a third term
will essentially just beperformative.
Our only hope is that if he diesof natural causes and he's 78,
he's overweight, he's got, youknow, I think he's a good
candidate for a heart attack ora stroke.

(01:14:46):
But if he's barely on lifesupport, he will continue to
hold power for as long as helives.
And I think where the church hasfallen down is in not warning us
that this is not acceptable.
If you remember that BYUprofessor, he posted scriptures
outside his door, Mosiah 29,verses 26 and 27.

(01:15:09):
Now, it is not common that thevoice of the people desireth
anything contrary to that whichis right, but it is common for
the lesser part of the people todesire that which is not right.
Therefore, this shall ye observeand make it your law to do your
business by the voice of thepeople.
And if the time comes that thevoice of the people doth choose

(01:15:29):
iniquity, Then is the time thatthe judgments of God will come
upon you.
Yea, then is the time he willvisit you with great
destruction, even as he has hitor two visited this land.
I think that verse screensDonald Trump.
Screens Donald Trump.

(01:15:50):
That is exactly what we havedone.
We have chosen iniquity.
We have said, yes, this manraped women.
We don't care.
Yes, this man committedfelonies.
We don't care.
Yes, this man started a riot totry to overthrow the government,
and the riot left five peopledead.
We don't care.
We still want this guy.

(01:16:11):
We choose iniquity.
And because we think thatsomehow that's going to help us,
that's going to be good.
So the role of the church is notto— lead rallies against Donald
Trump, it's to remind people ofMosiah 2927.

(01:16:32):
Remind them what that means.
Remind them of the principlesthat the United States of
America has thrown away with theelection of Donald Trump.
And I don't see the church beingwilling to do that.
I see the church at this pointin time continuing to pretend
that this is normal.

(01:16:53):
And I don't necessarily blamethem because I think so many
people, you know, so many peoplejust thought this was just
another choice.
They just thought this wasnormal.
We have normalized so much evilthat, you know, I think I
mentioned in the last time wetalked about Trump that I was in
McDonald's the day after theelection.

(01:17:15):
And a guy walked in and helooked at the menu and he wasn't
joking.
And he said, Donald Trump justwon.
Why haven't the prices comedown?
And he meant it because the wayTrump promised that somehow, I
mean, now he's saying herecognizes he can't bring prices
down.
He's not going to do anything.
What he's going to do is passtariffs that are going to raise

(01:17:38):
prices.
We're starting a trade war withyour country.
And we're going to drive upprices by 30, 40 percent.
Inflation is going to go throughthe roof under Donald Trump.
But Donald Trump told everybodythat Joe Biden was the reason
why their hamburgers cost more.
And so some idiot votes forDonald Trump, walks into
McDonald's the next day andgoes, how come my quarter
pounder still costs so muchmoney?

(01:18:00):
I mean, it's just where it's noteven just the church.
All of our institutions have letus down because we we were able
to look at iniquity and stillsee it as a viable choice, as a
nation.
And it's going to be a very,very long time before we recover

(01:18:21):
from that, if we ever do.
And I look at this, and I don'tknow that we ever do.
I mean, this may be thebeginning of the kinds of
tribulations that can only berectified with the return of the
Savior, because we have botchedit.
We have botched it so badly.
You know, history repeats itselffirst as tragedy and then as

(01:18:45):
farce.
I don't see this as farce.
I see this as tragedy.
We are repeating the mistakes ofpre-World War II Germany.
We have elected a fascist.
We have thrown in with fascism.
We have chosen iniquity.
And I think it's the church'srole to let us understand that

(01:19:07):
understand the principles.
No matter where you think theminimum wage should be, no
matter what you think thehighest tax bracket should be,
no matter what you consider interms of policy, it is not
acceptable to choose indecencyand think that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 (01:19:28):
Well, Jim, I really appreciate having this
conversation with you.
It's a very emotiveconversation.
You know, these things affectour lives in very fundamental
ways in America, Canada, forsure, certainly around the
world.
We could talk much more on this.
I'm reminded by, I think it wasPresident Hinckley that talked

(01:19:50):
about there is safety andsecurity in living the gospel.
When I heard that, I thought,yeah, if I stick to the gospel,
and the gospel, not themechanics of the gospel or the
church mechanics or theoperations of the church, but
the principles of honesty,integrity, decency, doing the
right thing, forgiveness,repentance, owning up when we

(01:20:14):
made a mistake, admitting thatwe're wrong, we're not always
right, having a level ofhumility, those fundamental
principles that Christ possessedand many, many of the people
have possessed across differentreligions over the years.
lifespan of humans.
And then to your point, theimportance of learning from

(01:20:36):
history.
If we can't learn from themistakes of the past and the
Second World War and the FirstWorld War, if we can't learn
from those atrocities, the painand the destruction of people's
lives, if we can't learn fromthat, then history will repeat
itself.
The difference now is that we'reliving in a very different time.

(01:21:00):
We're living in the nuclear age.
There were the nuclear threatsback in the Second World War.
Those conversations weren'thappening, but they're happening
now.
And it's worrying.
Without guardrails, withoutthose standards and those
fundamental guardrails of thefundamental values and standards

(01:21:21):
that we should live by in orderto you know, be decent human
beings towards each other.
Without those, then it becomes ajungle and it's dog eat dog and
you then repeat history.
This may have been a verydifficult conversation with you,

(01:21:42):
so thank you for having thisconversation.
I definitely wanted to get youropinion and views on these
things.
Just want to remind ourlisteners that the next
installment will be the thirdpart of the survey questionnaire
that the church put out.
We hope to conclude that on partthree.
We hope that you enjoyed thisconversation.

(01:22:04):
Again, we're not trying to beover-political.
We are trying to highlight thedistinction, the relationship
between the church and politics.
And we also, Jim and I agree, Ithink if there's ever a time
where we need help from thedivine, help from God and Jesus
Christ and And anyone else who'sgot the power to help us from

(01:22:26):
the heavens, that time is now.
So Jim, I want to thank you forthis conversation.
And I want to thank all of ourlisteners.
Until next time, we wish you thebest from the team here at
Inside Out.
Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 (01:22:41):
Thank you, Liam.

SPEAKER_02 (01:22:42):
Thank you, Jim.

UNKNOWN (01:22:43):
Thank you.