October 26, 2022 • 24 mins
In the first episode of this new podcast from The Commission on Rehabilitation Counselor Certification (CRCC), Dr. Susan Sherman speaks with CRCC Executive Director Pam Shlemon about her career in rehabilitation counseling. Dr. Sherman's insights stem from all chapters of her professional life, including time running a State VR Agency, running a rehabilitation counseling program at East Carolina University, and her time as President of the CRCC Board of Directors.
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Episode Transcript
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Pam Shlemon (00:04):
Hello and welcome to Inside Rehabilitation
Counseling, presented by theCommission on Rehabilitation
Counselor Certification.
I'm Pam Shleman, executivedirector of ccc, and we're so
glad to have you here for whatis the first of many
conversations we'll share withyou as we dive into the art and
science of rehabilitationcounseling.
What we're hoping to achievewith the podcast is to take you
(00:24):
on a journey through the lens ofcertified rehab counselors,
employers, clients, and everyonein between about the important
and meaningful work of certifiedrehab counselors.
We can all agree thatindividuals with disabilities
are the bedrock for why we dowhat we do.
We will bring you inspiringstories, lessons, perspectives,
and insights with the goal toeducate, empower, and bring
(00:45):
voice to the profession ofrehabilitation counseling.
In our first episode, we bringyou Dr.
Susan Sherman.
Dr.
Sherman has decades ofexperience as both a
practitioner and formerassistant director of the
Georgia State VocationalRehabilitation Program and
master's program andrehabilitation and career
counseling at East CarolinaUniversity.
Dr.
Sherman told us that being a CRCis who she is at her core, and
(01:07):
she took the time to share withus why she dedicated her career
to this field.
Well, good morning, Dr.
Sherman.
It's a pleasure to have you joinus on this podcast.
Um, we would like to, um, beginby asking you a few questions.
We know you've been a certifiedrehab counselor for many years,
and we first wanna thank you foryour dedication and service to
(01:28):
this field.
So if you could just tell us howyou got into the field of
rehabilitation counseling andwhat drew you to the work?
Dr. Susan Sherman (01:35):
I'm gonna give you the honest answer.
I was a psychology major, as somany people are, and it was at
Florida State and it was verySkinnerian and I wasn't gonna
touch rats, so I looked in thecatalog, you know, it was on
paper back then.
And I flipped around and I sawcounseling and I saw rehab
counseling, and I thought,That's it, that's what I wanna
(01:56):
do.
And I was gonna go into thecounseling program, but it was
just a master's program.
So, you know, what I wanted tobe when I grew up was a
psychiatric and substance abusecounselor.
So like most young people wannabe.
But I saw that rehab counselinghad both a bachelor's and a
master's.
And so I went into thebachelor's program.
(02:16):
I transferred in there.
And then I ended up graduatingwith my degree in rehabilitation
services and was looking atmaster's programs.
And again, was looking at thecounseling program, but they
offered me some trainingshipmoney and I was putting myself
through college, and that'sbasically how I ended up in the
master's program.
Pam Shlemon (02:37):
How would you say that the master's program when
you went into it, differs fromtoday's master's program?
Or has it differed?
Dr. Susan Sherman (02:45):
I think it's kind of similar.
I mean, the person who was mymajor professor, at Florida
State, Jeannie Bolen Patterson,and you all may know that name
had been very active in thefield.
It's certainly more laid outtoday.
I think there are specificcourses that I agree every
(03:06):
beginning counselor needs.
I don't see a lot of differencethat I can remember.
Pam Shlemon (03:11):
How would you explain what a rehab counselor
does if you were speaking tosomeone who wasn't aware of this
field?
And as we know, many peopledon't know what a rehab
counselor does,
Dr. Susan Sherman (03:23):
So you want the elevator speech.
And so what I would say tosomebody and what I've said all
my career is that,rehabilitation counselors assist
people with both physical andmental disabilities all
disabilities to becomeself-sufficient.
And look at employment if that'sappropriate for them, and look
(03:43):
at independent living skills, ifthat's appropriate for them, or
a combination.
But we assist people withdisabilities, generally
speaking, to go to work.
Pam Shlemon (03:51):
We also know that you worked in the Georgia VR
Agency as the Assistant directorof the VR program.
Yes.
How do you think having a CRCrunning a state bay program
makes a
Dr. Susan Sherman (04:03):
Difference?
I started out as an independentliving counselor, which you may
or may not know.
And then I got recruited toGeorgia to work in the Roosevelt
Warm Springs Institute forRehabilitation, and that's the
center that Franklin DellRoosevelt and when he had polio.
So I got recruited to go there.
And then ended up, you know,kind of moving through the ranks
(04:25):
became a psychiatric andsubstance abuse counselor in
Atlanta.
Ended up with because of myindependent living background
doing a lot of different kindsof work.
And so again, I kept gettingpromoted.
Um, you know, I would look at,see, you know, they'd have an
opening and, and you'd thinkabout who would walk through
that door.
And I'm like, Yeah, might aswell be me.
(04:47):
And and so I, I became theeventually became the assistant
director of the agency above mewas political.
They came and went, I did notwant that job because I had a
longer time horizon toretirement.
And so that's sort of how Ibecame the assistant director of
the agency.
And under me was assistivetechnology, a policy qa,
(05:09):
technical assistance, all kindsthe training grants back then.
All that kind of thing was underme.
Pam Shlemon (05:17):
How long were you with the Georgia VR?
Dr. Susan Sherman (05:19):
I was there almost 29 years.
Pam Shlemon (05:21):
29 years.
Wow.
And during that time, I know thelaws have changed slightly since
then.
Did you recruit certified rehabcounselors or re rehab
counselors or bachelor's levelfolks to work with individuals
with disabilities?
Dr. Susan Sherman (05:35):
It's always been important to me that people
have bottom line competency.
and to me that's what your CRCsays.
You at least understandrehabilitation counseling.
so when, C S P D came aboutcomprehensive system of
personnel development, ourleadership team met and we
decided that our counselors, ourmaster's level counselors,
(05:57):
needed to be crc.
It would, it's appropriate thatthey have that credential, to do
the kind of work they do.
And so we implemented that inthe state of Georgia requiring,
our counselors to have CRCs.
And those that didn't wanna dothat at the time could go into
other kinds of positions likeaccount rep working with
businesses, or we have assistantkind of positions, but our CRCs
(06:20):
were required and they may stillbe required in Georgia to have a
crc, in order we met C S P Dthat way.
but I also felt confident thatwe had staff that knew what they
were doing.
And
Pam Shlemon (06:32):
Would, I'm assuming you would agree that today that
still should be
Dr. Susan Sherman (06:35):
The Absolutely.
Okay.
That's the bottom line.
I think when they did away withC S P D, my heart broke.
I didn't, um, I still don'tunderstand it because to me, we
should want the most qualifiedpeople working with individuals
with disabilities.
Pam Shlemon (06:53):
I couldn't agree more.
After you left state vr, youbecame correctly, if I'm wrong,
a counselor educator and, andthen eventually the director of
the re rehab counseling master'sprogram in East Carolina
University.
Tell me about your experiencebeing on the education side of
things.
Dr. Susan Sherman (07:09):
Well, it's, it's, it's been an inter it was
an interesting shift.
Um, you know, most people thathave served in positions like
director or assistant directorof VR agencies do not go back to
school and get a PhD cuz youknow, that's crazy.
And so I lost my mind and,looked around some rehab
programs and Michigan Statesaid, Come and we'll pay you to
do this.
They wanted me for some grant, agrant they got, I was getting
(07:32):
the same offers from Universityof Wisconsin Madison because
what I realized afterwards, as,as Fong Chan and Michael Leahy
had gone in and our granttogether, and they both wanted
me to do that, it was aroundstate agencies.
But as I was looking atretirement, I have to tell you
that I was trying to figure outwhat I wanted to be when I grew
up.
And all my friends told me, Youneed to be a counselor educator.
(07:53):
I, I do a lot of training.
I've done a lot of training, andthings and I thought, well, I
can bring practice to theory.
And, and so that's what I did.
As a counselor educator, Ibrought practice to theory.
And it concerns me sometimesthat you have young educators
that have never been in apractice.
I think everybody should have atleast two to five years at least
(08:17):
in the field before they get,get a PhD in this field.
so they know what they'retalking about, um, in practice.
And so I decided that would be agood thing to do to help create
counselors that I would hire.
And I have to tell you, I waspicky.
I, there were certain schoolsthat we didn't hire from because
they couldn't answer thequestion, What is rehabilitation
(08:37):
counseling?
Seriously?
And and so I would, you know, Iwanted to create a program where
people would be, excited and mycounselors would be competent.
Pam Shlemon (08:47):
Well, as you know, I've been with the organization
almost four years now and earlyon you were the one of the first
individuals I reached out to.
And why I did that is becauselooking, you know, through some
pass rates of students and whatprograms had successes with
their students passing the crc,but not just the crc, just
talking to students about theirprogram.
(09:09):
East Carolina was always one ofthe top.
And your program consistentlyunder your direction,
consistently had, um, pass ratesof 100% for most of the years
that I've been with ccc.
So one, I wanna congratulate youand commend you on the excellent
work that you did as thedirector there.
(09:31):
We wish we could clone you andwe could have more of you around
cuz it's so important.
Mm-hmm.
.
Um, tell me a little bit aboutwhat you did to facilitate the
success of your students.
Dr. Susan Sherman (09:42):
Well, obviously I stayed credentialed.
You know, we were COREaccredited.
we were one of the last programsthat got re-accredited under
CORE.
and then we were moved, over, toCACREP once CACREP and CORE
merged.
And of course, you know, I wasinvolved in some of that.
You're never a prophet in yourown land.
And so for me, I walked into aprogram that isn't a department
(10:07):
of basically mental health andsubstance abuse, which I didn't
have a problem with.
I thought that was great, youknow, cause that's what I wanted
to be when I grew up.
Right.
And so under that, we all taughtacross lines.
So I taught the clinical programand they taught my rehab
program.
There were some differences likevocational evaluation and stuff
(10:27):
that we taught, but I also usedthe exam as my exit exam, my
final for the program.
I was able to do that.
And I did, the other programused the CPC exam.
my students once they got theCRC in North Carolina today,
(10:48):
were able to then turn aroundand apply for licensure.
The other programs, people hadto then take the NCC to qualify
for licensure.
So I like to tell people that wecan do everything they can do
only more and better.
And it's true.
We can do everything they cando.
Pam Shlemon (11:04):
Couldn't agree with you more on that.
What do you identify as the mostsignificant changes in the
classroom in regards topreparing students for the CRC
exam and the profession as awhole?
Dr. Susan Sherman (11:15):
We need to have counseling skills.
We need to have rehab skills.
Um, and we need to be able toput those together.
You know, we need to know aboutvarious disabilities.
We need to know how to evaluatesomebody to give them the best
services.
I think all those things arecritical to becoming a good
counselor, a good rehabcounselor.
(11:37):
My biggest concerns is thatsomething happened on the way of
CACREP, and that is during theprocess, there was supposed to
be one rehab program,rehabilitation counseling, and
somehow they kept their clinicalrehab program and then brought
in the traditional rehabprograms.
(11:58):
Eventually it was supposed tomerge into one.
And I'm hopeful that it willstill do that because, you know,
just like in marriage and familycounseling or school counseling,
there's rehab counseling.
Okay.
There's not 400 variations.
So today I'm concerned about youhave some schools that have both
programs.
I'm concerned aboutaccreditation a lot.
I think programs should beaccredited.
(12:20):
And if you're gonna be acounselor, you need to be
accredited today.
in my opinion, you know, one ofour, the things students look
for is flexibility.
Mm-hmm.
, I've beenlicensed since 1987, which was
the, around the inception oflicensure.
And so I think it's importantthat we also help our CRCs, our
(12:41):
rehab counselor and graduatesbecome licensed as well.
So they have options, studentneeds options.
I'm still licensed in Georgia.
I'm licensed in Michigan, andI'm licensed.
you may know they're now thelicensed clinical mental health
counselors in North Carolina.
Why have I kept that all theseyears?
Because I believe in what I tellstudents, options are important.
(13:02):
You never know where you'regonna be.
If you would've told me that Iwould be a counselor educator
when I got into this field, Iwould've lacked you out of the
room.
if you would've told me I'd havebeen the assistant director of
the agency, I'm like, Yeah,right.
I wanna be a, a counselor.
so you never know.
And you want to have choices.
I mean, even in retirement, I'mkeeping things up because I
(13:24):
wanna have choices.
You know what, if I get bored intwo years, I doubt it.
But what if I do and wanna goand open a little practice or
something, you know, or do someconsulting.
You should keep up yourcredentials.
It's important.
Pam Shlemon (13:35):
And you alluded a little bit to the core CACREP
merger, and I think that was avery significant merger that
happened in the field.
I'm not sure some would say thatwas a good thing or not such a
good thing.
And CRC has been working veryhard to, with CACREP to ensure
that you, well know, you're veryfamiliar with what, what's
(13:56):
termed as the role and functionstudy in evidence-based
research.
Right.
To show the survey, the studythat was completed actually
demonstrates the minimum compnecessary for a student coming
out of a master's program to beable to know the minimum
competency levels to besuccessful, and most
importantly, to be able to workwith those individuals'
(14:17):
disabilities.
They deserve that qualityAbsolutely.
Service.
And if they don't have that, theindividual that's gonna suffer,
we know are those that are beingserved, those individuals with
disabilities.
When, when our organization,because we are accredited
program through NCCA, we arerequired to do every five years
(14:38):
the role and function study wenow call it the job task
analysis research study.
That's just a more contemporaryterm that's being used in the
field today.
It has not changed.
The whole survey is still thesame.
When we come up with the sameknowledge domains, competencies
and skills necessary, thatblueprint is something that we
(15:00):
believe K Crap should use astheir guide to develop their
standards.
And more importantly, educatorsshould be using to develop their
syllabi, the curriculum.
Dr. Susan Sherman (15:10):
Absolutely.
Pam Shlemon (15:12):
Without that, we are going to hear, what we're
hearing today unfortunately, isfrom state VR agencies and
others, that there's folks arecoming out of these programs
that are not qualified.
We're not talking about CRCs,we're talking about those that
don't pass the CRC or don't sitfor the crc.
They're not getting those skillsand that minimal competency
(15:33):
necessary.
How important to you is, and Iknow that you're very familiar
with the role and functionstudy, and I know you've used
that.
Can you talk a little bit abouthow you infuse that as your
guide to your curriculum?
Dr. Susan Sherman (15:47):
It's absolutely the guide, those
areas, those competencies haveto be infused into what we
teach.
And so for me, it was a matterof making sure those areas were
infused in what we teach in theco in the courses that we
develop, you know, the amount ofcourses we have, those kinds of
things.
So yeah, I mean, I, I think it'scritical.
I am very concerned aboutprograms not being, CACREP
(16:13):
accredited today.
very concerned.
And I'm, I'm concerned aboutpeople not passing the CRC
because how could you go througha rehab master's program and not
pass the CRC?
I mean, something's wrong.
and, and it has a lot to do withperhaps some of the direction
programs are going in, or evensome of the directors who
(16:35):
haven't had to be in the fieldfor 29 years.
Okay.
Or actually, right.
I was also worked in Florida, soit was longer than that.
They don't have to be in thefield for 30 some odd years, but
they have to have anunderstanding, They have to have
an understanding of what goes onin the field, Which is why I say
to you that I don't believe, andI've said this to the doc
program at ECU, I don't believepeople, should ever go be
(16:58):
accepted into a doctoral programunless they've had a minimum of
two to five years experience.
So they know what they'reteaching, and they know how to
infuse, they know how importantit's to know certain things, you
know, under these domains.
I just think it's critical.
It's critical for the future ofour field.
Pam Shlemon (17:15):
I also believe right or wrong people mean folks
may not agree with me, thatthose that are teaching the
programs, the master's programsin rehabilitation counseling
should be CRCs.
Dr. Susan Sherman (17:25):
Totally.
I can't imagine, I can't imaginehaving a director rehabilitation
counseling program is not a CRC.
I mean, I just can't imagine.
Yeah.
Pam Shlemon (17:34):
And we do have those.
But speaking on those samelines, what advice would you
offer rehab counselor educatorsto improve their student pass
rates?
And you may have already alludedto this a little bit, just based
on the, your response to thelast question.
Dr. Susan Sherman (17:48):
I, I, I think I would, um, make sure that what
I was teaching was in under thedomains of, of the, what was the
role in function study.
I, I think they would have, theyneed to do that.
I think they need to take itthemselves.
I mean, how can you helpsomebody if you don't know what
it's on?
Don't know how to take ityourself.
You know how to study for it.
I then, one of the things that Idid, and I think it's critical,
(18:11):
is that we have to tell ourstudents, Yeah, you've been here
for two years.
You need to study for this exam.
and I would, um, let them knowwhat materials were out there
and, and so I would make surethat they had what they needed
and before they took the exam.
And I can't imagine any chair ofa, a program, a director of a
program who wouldn't see thatbeing done.
(18:32):
Um, because A, it's importantfor the field, and b, it's
important for the university, Iwould think, to have good pass
rates and, and be credentialedand, and all those things,
particularly in a competitiveworld.
Why would I come to you ifyou're not that?
I looked at Michigan State andUniversity of Wisconsin Madison
for my PhDs.
They were the two top schools inthe field.
Pam Shlemon (18:55):
I know in, preparing for our podcast, you
had mentioned, and I know yousaid this many times, that being
a rehab counselor, um, it's whoyou are at your core.
.
Can you elaborate on that just abit?
What did the work mean to youand how did it shape you as a
Dr. Susan Sherman (19:12):
Person?
Well, I am a counselor, but I'mnot just a counselor.
I'm a rehabilitation counselor.
I can do everything they can doand more.
I mean, I keep saying that, butit's true.
and throughout my career, um, II, I have been truly blessed to
be able to do the kinds ofactivities I've done.
I worked on the Americans withDisabilities Act pre ada.
(19:34):
I was a 504 coordinator for theDepartment of Human Resources.
I was the first state ADAcoordinator in Georgia i n the
governor's office after the lawpassed.
I was at the signing.
I, I mean, I'd done so muchsocial justice work to in the
field, which is to me, part ofwho you are as a rehabilitation
counselor.
You can't just say, Okay, I'm gonna be a counselor, you know,
(19:55):
eight to five and turn it off.
And I believe we have aresponsibility to, um, make the
world a better place than whenyou found it.
And I think that that's beenpart of my core is that I
believe and could be my age.
I'm certainly looking at what'sgoing on today.
You know, I've been to a lot ofmarches, you know mm-hmm.
(20:17):
.
And to me, that CRE helps createthe person.
I am the person who believes insocial justice work, who
believes in just, not justequality, but equity for people.
Yes.
Okay.
This is what I mean when I, andto me, that's who a
rehabilitation counselor is attheir core.
They wanna see the world abetter place.
They wanna make life better, forother people.
(20:39):
And in this case, peopleprobably with significant
disabilities.
and I've seen the difference theworld has made just since I've
been in the field.
And I guess that's a lot of whoI am, who I've always been, and
who I always will be.
If you are not a rehabilitationcounselor at your core, you
shouldn't be director of aprogram because we need people
(21:00):
who understand that, who canfeel it.
I mean, I can feel it.
And it's, it's been about mylife's work.
Pam Shlemon (21:06):
Just hearing you speak makes me emotional because
you can tell it.
That is who you are.
I know that certainly allcounselors play a special role
in their field, butrehabilitation counselors really
stand out because they trulywork holistically on the whole
individual.
They're not just, they're notjust treating one area.
You all are doing tremendousamount of work and to a group
(21:28):
that is typically underservedand marginalized, and they
deserve the same rights.
We all do.
And absolutely.
What would be, I know we askedwhat would be the most valuable
piece of advice you would offerto a, we have counselor
educator.
What would you say to a new CRCor a professional considering
coming in or a student comingin, thinking about coming into
(21:49):
this profession?
Dr. Susan Sherman (21:50):
There are a lot of different options in our
field.
Yeah.
You know, you can go intoprivate rehab, you can make
money.
You can go into state rehab andget a pension.
you know, we have a lot ofoptions.
You can work at an independentliving center.
You can work at a communitymental health center.
Okay.
You can work as a substanceabuse counselor.
We, we can do anything we wantto do that we're interested in
(22:13):
and we're trained in.
Okay.
And so my advice would be to getto know people in the field,
become active in the field.
I've been active in this fieldall my life, my whole career.
whether it was starting at theBig Ben Rehabilitation
Association, being on the boardwhen I was in my master's
(22:34):
program, or just got out of it,becoming the National Rehab
Association President.
I've served on the CCC boardtwice.
and the first time nobodythought I would ever get on the
board.
I don't know if you know, butback then it was pretty much
educators and private rehabpeople.
(22:55):
So nobody thought I would get onthe board.
And I did.
I even bit my tongue for thefirst 30 minutes in a meeting,
and then I'd had enough.
Pam Shlemon (23:04):
Well, seriously is better for it.
Dr. Susan Sherman (23:06):
Well, I thank you.
it's been my honor to serve onthe CCC board, to serve as your
president, to serve as yourchairs for ethics and, and, you
know, standards and exam and,and everything I've done.
You know, it, it, it's been,it's been an honor.
And I've got, you know, it'sexciting to me to look back on
(23:27):
my career and think about thelives I've touched and how many
lives those people are gonnatouch.
Whether it's been my staff orcounselors, my supervisors who
supervise them or as aprofessor, counselor, educator,
director of a program.
it's, it's really been, it'squite an amazing career.
(23:47):
And I would say to them, you canhave that too.
Pam Shlemon (23:51):
That's gonna do it for our first episode of Inside
Rehabilitation Counseling.
Please join us next month for aconversation with Kyle Walker,
Executive Director of StoutVocational Rehabilitation
Institute, and Russ Thelin,Senior Policy Fellow and program
specialist at UMass BostonInstitute for Community
Inclusion on the launch of theCertified Rehabilitation
Leadership Certification.
(24:11):
If you have any questions you'dlike us to answer, please let us
know by emailing us at contactus@crccertification.com.
Be sure to subscribe to InsideRehabilitation Counseling on
Apple Podcasts, Spotify, GooglePodcast, or wherever you're
listening to us today.
You can find us on Facebook,Twitter, and LinkedIn@ crccert,
and visit our website atcrccertification.com.
(24:34):
Until next time, I'm PamShleman, Executive Director of
CRCC.
Thank you for listening toInside Rehabilitation
Counseling.
Hello and welcome to Inside Rehabilitation
Counseling, presented by theCommission on Rehabilitation
Counselor Certification.
I'm Pam Shleman, executivedirector of ccc, and we're so
glad to have you here for whatis the first of many
conversations we'll share withyou as we dive into the art and
science of rehabilitationcounseling.
What we're hoping to achievewith the podcast is to take you
(00:24):
on a journey through the lens ofcertified rehab counselors,
employers, clients, and everyonein between about the important
and meaningful work of certifiedrehab counselors.
We can all agree thatindividuals with disabilities
are the bedrock for why we dowhat we do.
We will bring you inspiringstories, lessons, perspectives,
and insights with the goal toeducate, empower, and bring
(00:45):
voice to the profession ofrehabilitation counseling.
In our first episode, we bringyou Dr.
Susan Sherman.
Dr.
Sherman has decades ofexperience as both a
practitioner and formerassistant director of the
Georgia State VocationalRehabilitation Program and
master's program andrehabilitation and career
counseling at East CarolinaUniversity.
Dr.
Sherman told us that being a CRCis who she is at her core, and
(01:07):
she took the time to share withus why she dedicated her career
to this field.
Well, good morning, Dr.
Sherman.
It's a pleasure to have you joinus on this podcast.
Um, we would like to, um, beginby asking you a few questions.
We know you've been a certifiedrehab counselor for many years,
and we first wanna thank you foryour dedication and service to
(01:28):
this field.
So if you could just tell us howyou got into the field of
rehabilitation counseling andwhat drew you to the work?
Dr. Susan Sherman (01:35):
I'm gonna give you the honest answer.
I was a psychology major, as somany people are, and it was at
Florida State and it was verySkinnerian and I wasn't gonna
touch rats, so I looked in thecatalog, you know, it was on
paper back then.
And I flipped around and I sawcounseling and I saw rehab
counseling, and I thought,That's it, that's what I wanna
(01:56):
do.
And I was gonna go into thecounseling program, but it was
just a master's program.
So, you know, what I wanted tobe when I grew up was a
psychiatric and substance abusecounselor.
So like most young people wannabe.
But I saw that rehab counselinghad both a bachelor's and a
master's.
And so I went into thebachelor's program.
(02:16):
I transferred in there.
And then I ended up graduatingwith my degree in rehabilitation
services and was looking atmaster's programs.
And again, was looking at thecounseling program, but they
offered me some trainingshipmoney and I was putting myself
through college, and that'sbasically how I ended up in the
master's program.
Pam Shlemon (02:37):
How would you say that the master's program when
you went into it, differs fromtoday's master's program?
Or has it differed?
Dr. Susan Sherman (02:45):
I think it's kind of similar.
I mean, the person who was mymajor professor, at Florida
State, Jeannie Bolen Patterson,and you all may know that name
had been very active in thefield.
It's certainly more laid outtoday.
I think there are specificcourses that I agree every
(03:06):
beginning counselor needs.
I don't see a lot of differencethat I can remember.
Pam Shlemon (03:11):
How would you explain what a rehab counselor
does if you were speaking tosomeone who wasn't aware of this
field?
And as we know, many peopledon't know what a rehab
counselor does,
Dr. Susan Sherman (03:23):
So you want the elevator speech.
And so what I would say tosomebody and what I've said all
my career is that,rehabilitation counselors assist
people with both physical andmental disabilities all
disabilities to becomeself-sufficient.
And look at employment if that'sappropriate for them, and look
(03:43):
at independent living skills, ifthat's appropriate for them, or
a combination.
But we assist people withdisabilities, generally
speaking, to go to work.
Pam Shlemon (03:51):
We also know that you worked in the Georgia VR
Agency as the Assistant directorof the VR program.
Yes.
How do you think having a CRCrunning a state bay program
makes a
Dr. Susan Sherman (04:03):
Difference?
I started out as an independentliving counselor, which you may
or may not know.
And then I got recruited toGeorgia to work in the Roosevelt
Warm Springs Institute forRehabilitation, and that's the
center that Franklin DellRoosevelt and when he had polio.
So I got recruited to go there.
And then ended up, you know,kind of moving through the ranks
(04:25):
became a psychiatric andsubstance abuse counselor in
Atlanta.
Ended up with because of myindependent living background
doing a lot of different kindsof work.
And so again, I kept gettingpromoted.
Um, you know, I would look at,see, you know, they'd have an
opening and, and you'd thinkabout who would walk through
that door.
And I'm like, Yeah, might aswell be me.
(04:47):
And and so I, I became theeventually became the assistant
director of the agency above mewas political.
They came and went, I did notwant that job because I had a
longer time horizon toretirement.
And so that's sort of how Ibecame the assistant director of
the agency.
And under me was assistivetechnology, a policy qa,
(05:09):
technical assistance, all kindsthe training grants back then.
All that kind of thing was underme.
Pam Shlemon (05:17):
How long were you with the Georgia VR?
Dr. Susan Sherman (05:19):
I was there almost 29 years.
Pam Shlemon (05:21):
29 years.
Wow.
And during that time, I know thelaws have changed slightly since
then.
Did you recruit certified rehabcounselors or re rehab
counselors or bachelor's levelfolks to work with individuals
with disabilities?
Dr. Susan Sherman (05:35):
It's always been important to me that people
have bottom line competency.
and to me that's what your CRCsays.
You at least understandrehabilitation counseling.
so when, C S P D came aboutcomprehensive system of
personnel development, ourleadership team met and we
decided that our counselors, ourmaster's level counselors,
(05:57):
needed to be crc.
It would, it's appropriate thatthey have that credential, to do
the kind of work they do.
And so we implemented that inthe state of Georgia requiring,
our counselors to have CRCs.
And those that didn't wanna dothat at the time could go into
other kinds of positions likeaccount rep working with
businesses, or we have assistantkind of positions, but our CRCs
(06:20):
were required and they may stillbe required in Georgia to have a
crc, in order we met C S P Dthat way.
but I also felt confident thatwe had staff that knew what they
were doing.
And
Pam Shlemon (06:32):
Would, I'm assuming you would agree that today that
still should be
Dr. Susan Sherman (06:35):
The Absolutely.
Okay.
That's the bottom line.
I think when they did away withC S P D, my heart broke.
I didn't, um, I still don'tunderstand it because to me, we
should want the most qualifiedpeople working with individuals
with disabilities.
Pam Shlemon (06:53):
I couldn't agree more.
After you left state vr, youbecame correctly, if I'm wrong,
a counselor educator and, andthen eventually the director of
the re rehab counseling master'sprogram in East Carolina
University.
Tell me about your experiencebeing on the education side of
things.
Dr. Susan Sherman (07:09):
Well, it's, it's, it's been an inter it was
an interesting shift.
Um, you know, most people thathave served in positions like
director or assistant directorof VR agencies do not go back to
school and get a PhD cuz youknow, that's crazy.
And so I lost my mind and,looked around some rehab
programs and Michigan Statesaid, Come and we'll pay you to
do this.
They wanted me for some grant, agrant they got, I was getting
(07:32):
the same offers from Universityof Wisconsin Madison because
what I realized afterwards, as,as Fong Chan and Michael Leahy
had gone in and our granttogether, and they both wanted
me to do that, it was aroundstate agencies.
But as I was looking atretirement, I have to tell you
that I was trying to figure outwhat I wanted to be when I grew
up.
And all my friends told me, Youneed to be a counselor educator.
(07:53):
I, I do a lot of training.
I've done a lot of training, andthings and I thought, well, I
can bring practice to theory.
And, and so that's what I did.
As a counselor educator, Ibrought practice to theory.
And it concerns me sometimesthat you have young educators
that have never been in apractice.
I think everybody should have atleast two to five years at least
(08:17):
in the field before they get,get a PhD in this field.
so they know what they'retalking about, um, in practice.
And so I decided that would be agood thing to do to help create
counselors that I would hire.
And I have to tell you, I waspicky.
I, there were certain schoolsthat we didn't hire from because
they couldn't answer thequestion, What is rehabilitation
(08:37):
counseling?
Seriously?
And and so I would, you know, Iwanted to create a program where
people would be, excited and mycounselors would be competent.
Pam Shlemon (08:47):
Well, as you know, I've been with the organization
almost four years now and earlyon you were the one of the first
individuals I reached out to.
And why I did that is becauselooking, you know, through some
pass rates of students and whatprograms had successes with
their students passing the crc,but not just the crc, just
talking to students about theirprogram.
(09:09):
East Carolina was always one ofthe top.
And your program consistentlyunder your direction,
consistently had, um, pass ratesof 100% for most of the years
that I've been with ccc.
So one, I wanna congratulate youand commend you on the excellent
work that you did as thedirector there.
(09:31):
We wish we could clone you andwe could have more of you around
cuz it's so important.
Mm-hmm.
Um, tell me a little bit aboutwhat you did to facilitate the
success of your students.
Dr. Susan Sherman (09:42):
Well, obviously I stayed credentialed.
You know, we were COREaccredited.
we were one of the last programsthat got re-accredited under
CORE.
and then we were moved, over, toCACREP once CACREP and CORE
merged.
And of course, you know, I wasinvolved in some of that.
You're never a prophet in yourown land.
And so for me, I walked into aprogram that isn't a department
(10:07):
of basically mental health andsubstance abuse, which I didn't
have a problem with.
I thought that was great, youknow, cause that's what I wanted
to be when I grew up.
Right.
And so under that, we all taughtacross lines.
So I taught the clinical programand they taught my rehab
program.
There were some differences likevocational evaluation and stuff
(10:27):
that we taught, but I also usedthe exam as my exit exam, my
final for the program.
I was able to do that.
And I did, the other programused the CPC exam.
my students once they got theCRC in North Carolina today,
(10:48):
were able to then turn aroundand apply for licensure.
The other programs, people hadto then take the NCC to qualify
for licensure.
So I like to tell people that wecan do everything they can do
only more and better.
And it's true.
We can do everything they cando.
Pam Shlemon (11:04):
Couldn't agree with you more on that.
What do you identify as the mostsignificant changes in the
classroom in regards topreparing students for the CRC
exam and the profession as awhole?
Dr. Susan Sherman (11:15):
We need to have counseling skills.
We need to have rehab skills.
Um, and we need to be able toput those together.
You know, we need to know aboutvarious disabilities.
We need to know how to evaluatesomebody to give them the best
services.
I think all those things arecritical to becoming a good
counselor, a good rehabcounselor.
(11:37):
My biggest concerns is thatsomething happened on the way of
CACREP, and that is during theprocess, there was supposed to
be one rehab program,rehabilitation counseling, and
somehow they kept their clinicalrehab program and then brought
in the traditional rehabprograms.
(11:58):
Eventually it was supposed tomerge into one.
And I'm hopeful that it willstill do that because, you know,
just like in marriage and familycounseling or school counseling,
there's rehab counseling.
Okay.
There's not 400 variations.
So today I'm concerned about youhave some schools that have both
programs.
I'm concerned aboutaccreditation a lot.
I think programs should beaccredited.
(12:20):
And if you're gonna be acounselor, you need to be
accredited today.
in my opinion, you know, one ofour, the things students look
for is flexibility.
Mm-hmm.
the, around the inception oflicensure.
And so I think it's importantthat we also help our CRCs, our
(12:41):
rehab counselor and graduatesbecome licensed as well.
So they have options, studentneeds options.
I'm still licensed in Georgia.
I'm licensed in Michigan, andI'm licensed.
you may know they're now thelicensed clinical mental health
counselors in North Carolina.
Why have I kept that all theseyears?
Because I believe in what I tellstudents, options are important.
(13:02):
You never know where you'regonna be.
If you would've told me that Iwould be a counselor educator
when I got into this field, Iwould've lacked you out of the
room.
if you would've told me I'd havebeen the assistant director of
the agency, I'm like, Yeah,right.
I wanna be a, a counselor.
so you never know.
And you want to have choices.
I mean, even in retirement, I'mkeeping things up because I
(13:24):
wanna have choices.
You know what, if I get bored intwo years, I doubt it.
But what if I do and wanna goand open a little practice or
something, you know, or do someconsulting.
You should keep up yourcredentials.
It's important.
Pam Shlemon (13:35):
And you alluded a little bit to the core CACREP
merger, and I think that was avery significant merger that
happened in the field.
I'm not sure some would say thatwas a good thing or not such a
good thing.
And CRC has been working veryhard to, with CACREP to ensure
that you, well know, you're veryfamiliar with what, what's
(13:56):
termed as the role and functionstudy in evidence-based
research.
Right.
To show the survey, the studythat was completed actually
demonstrates the minimum compnecessary for a student coming
out of a master's program to beable to know the minimum
competency levels to besuccessful, and most
importantly, to be able to workwith those individuals'
(14:17):
disabilities.
They deserve that qualityAbsolutely.
Service.
And if they don't have that, theindividual that's gonna suffer,
we know are those that are beingserved, those individuals with
disabilities.
When, when our organization,because we are accredited
program through NCCA, we arerequired to do every five years
(14:38):
the role and function study wenow call it the job task
analysis research study.
That's just a more contemporaryterm that's being used in the
field today.
It has not changed.
The whole survey is still thesame.
When we come up with the sameknowledge domains, competencies
and skills necessary, thatblueprint is something that we
(15:00):
believe K Crap should use astheir guide to develop their
standards.
And more importantly, educatorsshould be using to develop their
syllabi, the curriculum.
Dr. Susan Sherman (15:10):
Absolutely.
Pam Shlemon (15:12):
Without that, we are going to hear, what we're
hearing today unfortunately, isfrom state VR agencies and
others, that there's folks arecoming out of these programs
that are not qualified.
We're not talking about CRCs,we're talking about those that
don't pass the CRC or don't sitfor the crc.
They're not getting those skillsand that minimal competency
(15:33):
necessary.
How important to you is, and Iknow that you're very familiar
with the role and functionstudy, and I know you've used
that.
Can you talk a little bit abouthow you infuse that as your
guide to your curriculum?
Dr. Susan Sherman (15:47):
It's absolutely the guide, those
areas, those competencies haveto be infused into what we
teach.
And so for me, it was a matterof making sure those areas were
infused in what we teach in theco in the courses that we
develop, you know, the amount ofcourses we have, those kinds of
things.
So yeah, I mean, I, I think it'scritical.
I am very concerned aboutprograms not being, CACREP
(16:13):
accredited today.
very concerned.
And I'm, I'm concerned aboutpeople not passing the CRC
because how could you go througha rehab master's program and not
pass the CRC?
I mean, something's wrong.
and, and it has a lot to do withperhaps some of the direction
programs are going in, or evensome of the directors who
(16:35):
haven't had to be in the fieldfor 29 years.
Okay.
Or actually, right.
I was also worked in Florida, soit was longer than that.
They don't have to be in thefield for 30 some odd years, but
they have to have anunderstanding, They have to have
an understanding of what goes onin the field, Which is why I say
to you that I don't believe, andI've said this to the doc
program at ECU, I don't believepeople, should ever go be
(16:58):
accepted into a doctoral programunless they've had a minimum of
two to five years experience.
So they know what they'reteaching, and they know how to
infuse, they know how importantit's to know certain things, you
know, under these domains.
I just think it's critical.
It's critical for the future ofour field.
Pam Shlemon (17:15):
I also believe right or wrong people mean folks
may not agree with me, thatthose that are teaching the
programs, the master's programsin rehabilitation counseling
should be CRCs.
Dr. Susan Sherman (17:25):
Totally.
I can't imagine, I can't imaginehaving a director rehabilitation
counseling program is not a CRC.
I mean, I just can't imagine.
Yeah.
Pam Shlemon (17:34):
And we do have those.
But speaking on those samelines, what advice would you
offer rehab counselor educatorsto improve their student pass
rates?
And you may have already alludedto this a little bit, just based
on the, your response to thelast question.
Dr. Susan Sherman (17:48):
I, I, I think I would, um, make sure that what
I was teaching was in under thedomains of, of the, what was the
role in function study.
I, I think they would have, theyneed to do that.
I think they need to take itthemselves.
I mean, how can you helpsomebody if you don't know what
it's on?
Don't know how to take ityourself.
You know how to study for it.
I then, one of the things that Idid, and I think it's critical,
(18:11):
is that we have to tell ourstudents, Yeah, you've been here
for two years.
You need to study for this exam.
and I would, um, let them knowwhat materials were out there
and, and so I would make surethat they had what they needed
and before they took the exam.
And I can't imagine any chair ofa, a program, a director of a
program who wouldn't see thatbeing done.
(18:32):
Um, because A, it's importantfor the field, and b, it's
important for the university, Iwould think, to have good pass
rates and, and be credentialedand, and all those things,
particularly in a competitiveworld.
Why would I come to you ifyou're not that?
I looked at Michigan State andUniversity of Wisconsin Madison
for my PhDs.
They were the two top schools inthe field.
Pam Shlemon (18:55):
I know in, preparing for our podcast, you
had mentioned, and I know yousaid this many times, that being
a rehab counselor, um, it's whoyou are at your core.
Can you elaborate on that just abit?
What did the work mean to youand how did it shape you as a
Dr. Susan Sherman (19:12):
Person?
Well, I am a counselor, but I'mnot just a counselor.
I'm a rehabilitation counselor.
I can do everything they can doand more.
I mean, I keep saying that, butit's true.
and throughout my career, um, II, I have been truly blessed to
be able to do the kinds ofactivities I've done.
I worked on the Americans withDisabilities Act pre ada.
(19:34):
I was a 504 coordinator for theDepartment of Human Resources.
I was the first state ADAcoordinator in Georgia i n the
governor's office after the lawpassed.
I was at the signing.
I, I mean, I'd done so muchsocial justice work to in the
field, which is to me, part ofwho you are as a rehabilitation
counselor.
You can't just say, Okay, I'm gonna be a counselor, you know,
(19:55):
eight to five and turn it off.
And I believe we have aresponsibility to, um, make the
world a better place than whenyou found it.
And I think that that's beenpart of my core is that I
believe and could be my age.
I'm certainly looking at what'sgoing on today.
You know, I've been to a lot ofmarches, you know mm-hmm.
(20:17):
And to me, that CRE helps createthe person.
I am the person who believes insocial justice work, who
believes in just, not justequality, but equity for people.
Yes.
Okay.
This is what I mean when I, andto me, that's who a
rehabilitation counselor is attheir core.
They wanna see the world abetter place.
They wanna make life better, forother people.
(20:39):
And in this case, peopleprobably with significant
disabilities.
and I've seen the difference theworld has made just since I've
been in the field.
And I guess that's a lot of whoI am, who I've always been, and
who I always will be.
If you are not a rehabilitationcounselor at your core, you
shouldn't be director of aprogram because we need people
(21:00):
who understand that, who canfeel it.
I mean, I can feel it.
And it's, it's been about mylife's work.
Pam Shlemon (21:06):
Just hearing you speak makes me emotional because
you can tell it.
That is who you are.
I know that certainly allcounselors play a special role
in their field, butrehabilitation counselors really
stand out because they trulywork holistically on the whole
individual.
They're not just, they're notjust treating one area.
You all are doing tremendousamount of work and to a group
(21:28):
that is typically underservedand marginalized, and they
deserve the same rights.
We all do.
And absolutely.
What would be, I know we askedwhat would be the most valuable
piece of advice you would offerto a, we have counselor
educator.
What would you say to a new CRCor a professional considering
coming in or a student comingin, thinking about coming into
(21:49):
this profession?
Dr. Susan Sherman (21:50):
There are a lot of different options in our
field.
Yeah.
You know, you can go intoprivate rehab, you can make
money.
You can go into state rehab andget a pension.
you know, we have a lot ofoptions.
You can work at an independentliving center.
You can work at a communitymental health center.
Okay.
You can work as a substanceabuse counselor.
We, we can do anything we wantto do that we're interested in
(22:13):
and we're trained in.
Okay.
And so my advice would be to getto know people in the field,
become active in the field.
I've been active in this fieldall my life, my whole career.
whether it was starting at theBig Ben Rehabilitation
Association, being on the boardwhen I was in my master's
(22:34):
program, or just got out of it,becoming the National Rehab
Association President.
I've served on the CCC boardtwice.
and the first time nobodythought I would ever get on the
board.
I don't know if you know, butback then it was pretty much
educators and private rehabpeople.
(22:55):
So nobody thought I would get onthe board.
And I did.
I even bit my tongue for thefirst 30 minutes in a meeting,
and then I'd had enough.
Pam Shlemon (23:04):
Well, seriously is better for it.
Dr. Susan Sherman (23:06):
Well, I thank you.
it's been my honor to serve onthe CCC board, to serve as your
president, to serve as yourchairs for ethics and, and, you
know, standards and exam and,and everything I've done.
You know, it, it, it's been,it's been an honor.
And I've got, you know, it'sexciting to me to look back on
(23:27):
my career and think about thelives I've touched and how many
lives those people are gonnatouch.
Whether it's been my staff orcounselors, my supervisors who
supervise them or as aprofessor, counselor, educator,
director of a program.
it's, it's really been, it'squite an amazing career.
(23:47):
And I would say to them, you canhave that too.
Pam Shlemon (23:51):
That's gonna do it for our first episode of Inside
Rehabilitation Counseling.
Please join us next month for aconversation with Kyle Walker,
Executive Director of StoutVocational Rehabilitation
Institute, and Russ Thelin,Senior Policy Fellow and program
specialist at UMass BostonInstitute for Community
Inclusion on the launch of theCertified Rehabilitation
Leadership Certification.
(24:11):
If you have any questions you'dlike us to answer, please let us
know by emailing us at contactus@crccertification.com.
Be sure to subscribe to InsideRehabilitation Counseling on
Apple Podcasts, Spotify, GooglePodcast, or wherever you're
listening to us today.
You can find us on Facebook,Twitter, and LinkedIn@ crccert,
and visit our website atcrccertification.com.
(24:34):
Until next time, I'm PamShleman, Executive Director of
CRCC.
Thank you for listening toInside Rehabilitation
Counseling.
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