September 17, 2025 • 22 mins
In this episode of the Instant Payments Podcast, host Tal Clark (CEO of Instant Financial) continues his conversation with Kevin O'Bold, VP of Finance at Ultra Steak. They dive deep into the impact of digital tipping, pay-at-the-table technology, and electronic payments on restaurant operations, employee satisfaction, and business efficiency. Kevin shares real-world insights on transitioning from cash to digital, optimizing labor, customizing tip pools, and the future of technology in the hospitality industry. The discussion also covers leadership advice for those aspiring to grow in the restaurant business.
Chapters & Timestamps:
00:00 – Introduction & Welcome Back
00:29 – The Shift to Pay-at-the-Table and Digital Payments
01:55 – Impact of Electronic Tipping: Efficiency & Transparency
04:15 – Employee Experience: Daily Tip Access & Financial Wellbeing
07:15 – Reducing Cash Handling & Courier Service Costs
09:00 – Employee Feedback and Retention Benefits
12:08 – Customizing Tip Pools and Automation
15:01 – Technology Needs: Forecasting, AI, and Labor Optimization
19:10 – Balancing Technology with Human Touch in Hospitality
21:15 – Dynamic Pricing: Opportunities and Challenges
23:45 – Leadership Advice for Restaurant & Hospitality Professionals
26:20 – Closing Thoughts & Where to Learn More
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tal Clark (00:06):
Welcome to the Instant Payments Podcast.
I'm your host, Tal Clark,CEO of Instant Financial.
And we're back for part two of ourconversation with Kevin O'Bold,
VP of Finance at Ultra Steak, arestaurant company that operates brands
including Aspen Creek Grill, AspenTap House, and Slim Chickens with
more than 3,000 employees nationwide.
Kevin, thanks again for joining us.
(00:27):
Let's jump back in.
One of the things I wanted to reallypick up from our last conversation
where we left off was you weretalking about pay at the table and as
someone who has been in and around thecredit card, debit card, prepaid card
processing business for about 20 years,
I, along with probably anybody elsein that space really appreciates that.
I see restaurants today, especiallynormally smaller, privately operated
(00:50):
restaurants that are giving discounts forcash, and it drives me a little crazy.
I have to say that, and it just drivesme a little crazy because the cost
of handling cash is so much more thanthat couple of percentage points that
you're paying for that credit card use.
And you mentioned that tips are goingup because you've got pay at the
table using your credit card, whichagain, everybody in the space knows
(01:14):
that and tries to communicate that.
The checks in the restaurantsgo up as well, right?
If people are paying with credit card,they're gonna spend more money with you.
You're not going to have anycost of cash handling and your
employees get paid more with tips.
Would you agree with all that?
Kevin O'Bold (01:30):
Yeah, you nailed it.
I mean, that's the ancillarybenefits from the business side of
things of why we can roll it out.
Tal Clark (01:37):
Yeah, it drives me a little crazy.
So that's probably a littleoff topic here for us.
But when I see that in a restaurantor any establishment especially
those that position themselves ashigher end restaurants and you're,
and then you get a check that wantsyou to give you a discount for pay
cash, I'm like, are you kidding me?
Anyway, so that's a little bit off topic.
Well, let's talk about.
Let's talk again about the tips piece ofthis and you mentioned tips are going up.
(02:02):
We've been working with you guys fora little bit on tips really since
2020 to make sure we've got you ina digital tipping environment and
a pay card solution so everybodygets their money in real time.
You've processed we're showing you'veprocessed more than 575,000 tips with
us, totaling over $30 million alongwith another $6 million going to back
(02:25):
of house employees will payroll card.
You're also seeing a $52 average tipand a $80 average payout in 2025.
And 7,000 all time active users.
From your perspective, just gimme a littlebit on how partnering with instant and
then just electronic payments in generalhas added efficiencies to your business.
Kevin O'Bold (02:46):
Well, just you reading off those numbers just
wow, that's a lot of employees.
That's a lot of years that we'vebeen doing this and just shows
you how important tipping isto a full service restaurant.
It brings me back to just ask like,how did we do this beforehand?
It wasn't that long ago, but it seemsonce you do it, you can't go backwards.
We used to have stores thatwould handle cash in envelopes.
(03:09):
Obviously, they would not wantto pay that cash out daily.
They'd hold onto it.
So you're talking probably a week,maybe even two weeks if we decided
to put it on a paycheck that thoseemployees are getting their cash.
Sometimes they're confused onwhat those calculations are.
It's not really transparent, it'sjust someone hand you some cash,
maybe showing you a report, but it'sa POS messy report in the backend.
(03:31):
They, they don't know really howto read it, maybe understand it.
And you've gotta somehow communicatethat to payroll for W2 purposes.
They've gotta know how to recordit at the end of the year.
And I just think that it had so manybenefits to us to go electronic and
really help the employees experience aswell, which is what really sold us on it.
(03:52):
We've talked about they can nowreceive their tips daily, or even we
run a lunch shift and a dinner shift.
We can do a mid shift and they canhave their money before they walk
out to the parking lot to go home.
That improves their financialsituation and their personal cash flow.
I also think some of them use justthe tip cards as a bank in a way.
We have so many underbanked employees, soit's a free mobile app that they can use.
(04:15):
So it's a quasi bankingrelationship that they have.
And I think it increasestheir transparency.
They can see the transactionscoming in and out.
There's that audit trail thatwe can have on the backend to
help communicate that with them.
And then I've talked aboutbefore, just the safety aspect.
That we were very concerned that wehad, several people, 20, 30 people every
(04:36):
night leaving in a dark parking lot,1:00, 2:00 AM after a long shift, and
then they've got cash in their pocket.
And we didn't like thatsafety concern for them.
So just being able to move itelectronically and everyone
knows that we're doing thatincrease that peace of mind.
Tal Clark (04:53):
Yeah.
Kevin O'Bold (04:55):
I think we talked about just the courier service changes as well.
I did not expect this.
I knew it would help a little bitwith the cash handling, but we were
able to cut our courier servicein half after we rolled this out.
So just not having to deal withthe courier service or picking up
and just how expensive that is.
And, sometimes they're late, sometimesthey don't bring their change order.
(05:15):
Well, the less cash that we have, theless of concerns those were for us.
We've eliminated those issues.
Tal Clark (05:21):
That's great.
For anybody that's listening andthat may not be familiar with that.
And, I've heard some details aroundcost at other places, but what does
that courier service typically cost?
Is it, do they charge by trip orby the volume of money they bring?
How do they charge andwhat does that look like?
Kevin O'Bold (05:38):
Yeah, they'll nickel and dime you.
It's a very much, it dependswhere the vault is that they
have to deliver the cash to.
It depends how much timethey have in your restaurant.
So I think a lot of our locationsare down to eight minutes or less.
You've gotta get 'em in,you gotta get 'em out.
You gotta find a manager that can openthe safe for them, have them count it, get
your receipts and get them out of there.
(05:59):
Because they'll start chargingyou extra if they have to be
behind on their shift for the day.
You're, you're trying to managethat the best you can, but you got
a thousand things to worry aboutduring a shift at a restaurant.
And it's almost like they're not heldaccountable to when they have to be at
your back door every single day and whenthey're gonna be on time and be efficient.
(06:20):
So you don't know what you'regonna run into with the safes too.
They could have some kind oftechnical or connection issue
opening it up and counting it.
Something could break.
A spring could be loose.
So you're just managing thatwhole piece of the courier service
process and it adds up real quickly.
Tal Clark (06:36):
Yeah.
It's crazy.
Go back to, again, you thinkabout people actually doing things
that might bring cash into arestaurant, which is just crazy.
And the other way to deal with this,some places and they're becoming
more rare, some places have electedto push tips to a normal payroll
cycle, which is typically two weeks.
We think that's a pretty awfuldecision, especially from an
(06:58):
employee's perspective that wouldlike to receive their money every day.
Did you guys even ever think aboutthat at all, or did you ever push
any tips to payroll before this?
Kevin O'Bold (07:08):
Some locations we did that just because, I think it was
at the time, the easiest way to, toget it all correct and get it in the
employee's hands in the best way.
But you actually would start to see likea, from a recruiting and retention effort,
new hires would come into our restaurants,never worked for us and they're like,
Hey, I worked down the street at thisrestaurant, and they've got tip cards.
(07:30):
I get my tips in this way electronicallyat the end of every shift.
So this is really hard to accept.
Or we'd have retention issues where theywould leave because they'd hear of a
friend saying- 'hey, come over here.'
You'll get cash in yourpocket a lot quicker.
And that's just something we didn'twant to lose to the competition
on what seems something that'ssimple that we can put in place.
(07:51):
And if employees are expecting itanyway, we gotta deliver on that.
Tal Clark (07:55):
Yeah, that makes sense.
And it is one of those thingsthat seems pretty obvious, right?
You have employees who'vebeen getting their money every
day, it may have been cash.
And we're able to get you and others outof the cash business without impacting
the way they have access to their money.
Have you guys, what are you doingin regards to so we talked about
getting cash outta the restaurants.
We talked about thetips piece a little bit.
(08:17):
What do you, what's yourfeedback from the employees?
Have you had much directfeedback from employees?
I guess you've seen some of the benefits.
You've seen recruiting and retentionbenefits but do you get much
direct feedback from employeesabout how you're managing their
tips and how they're receiving payand do they like what's going on?
Kevin O'Bold (08:35):
Yeah, it was, especially when we rolled it out,
it was night and day and theysaid, we're not going backwards.
We like this a lot.
We like having these cardsand we found some unique ways
to use it other than tips.
Sometimes we roll out contests.
We used to have to like, okay, we gottago get a gift card or something at a
gas station to, to hand out how are wegonna give them some time of a reward?
(08:57):
Well, sometimes they just want cash.
So you just say, okay, I'll giveyou your contest award winner
some money on your pay card.
Other times it's just unique waysof doing a per diem for travelers
going to a new store opening.
So it opened our mind to, okay, we can,we can use tip cards for that as well.
So we keep finding differentways to use it other than tips.
(09:17):
And so the employees love that,that it's got the flexibility.
Tal Clark (09:20):
Super, super.
I don't know if the team's told youyet, but we're working towards being
a hundred percent virtual card.
Goal of eliminating some of these plasticsthat you guys might be managing right now.
Definitely we'll stay in touch with youon that because things have changed so
much in the last four or five years.
We're talking about oneof those things, right?
Which is, let's, cash has gone away,but then we want to get the remainder
of the cash outta the restaurants.
(09:41):
And that's a big goal of oursin working with you and others.
But also, many of these legacy cardprograms have been the same since
I helped start one back in 2001.
And then there's someothers out there as well.
But, using plastic cards for thelast 24 years needs to go away
and it's time for it to go away.
So that's one thingwe're really focused on.
(10:02):
So hopefully we can get that toyou guys when you're ready and
eliminate the plastics that arethere, and go completely virtual.
What are you seeing inregards to incentives?
Do you guys talk complex tippooling or tips disbursements?
I know we're working with you now onsome software to manage some of that.
Talk a little bit about howthat's helped and what that's
meant for you guys as well.
Kevin O'Bold (10:23):
Yeah, so once we got on the tip card kind of system we took it a
level deeper and wanted to automate tippayouts, tip calculations, and tip pools.
What was unique, I think, for ourlocations is that we really needed
custom calculations per location.
We rolled this out six months ago workingwith you guys and I've got 10 locations
(10:46):
that we went live on, and all 10 had avery different way that they wanted to
allocate their tips to their tip pooland different strategies that they have.
One would just be, it's noteasy to recruit certain support
positions in the restaurant.
I've got one store that says I don't evenwant any hostesses in my pool because
(11:07):
they're easy to hire, but I can't hirebartenders, so I wanna weight more of
the pool payouts to bartenders so Ican you know, recruit and retain them.
Other stores are having drasticallydifferent like to go volumes.
And so just having those togo people also supported.
Maybe busing or food running.
Because we have lower volumeto gos at that location, they
(11:30):
can have a multi-purpose jobgetting them into the pool.
And then we have a couple locationsthat have a service well, that's
really unique and how they're working.
And the actual hours that they're working.
It's not very much, but theywant to be involved in the tip
pool to make it worth their time.
So just being able, theflexibility and customization.
To let the stores keepdoing what they're doing.
(11:51):
Because they know it works for theirlabor optimization and their recruiting.
But it also saves managers time becausethey don't have to manage this on an
Excel spreadsheet in the back officeor try to explain it to whoever's
closed on the restaurant that night.
It can be pretty complex and notreally understanding how it works.
And it could take a lot of time.
(12:11):
It take 20, 30, 40 minutes at ahigh volume restaurant to get all
this done at the end of the night.
And so we just eliminated allthat time and just said, log in.
You may have one thing you need to lookat just to do your checks and balances,
and as soon as you click that button topay everybody out, it'll happen instantly.
And, and we've got all thetransparency on the backend.
Tal Clark (12:32):
That's great.
It is great that it's adding value to you.
I did not realize that therewas a custom by restaurant
that was a benefit to you guys.
First of all, I think that's great tohear that really gives your managers
the opportunity to operate the storethe way they need to operate and I
think that might be unique relativeto maybe larger concepts because
(12:52):
I think typically what you hear iseverybody wants a one size fits all.
It helps them, I guess from a corporateperspective, maybe it helps to have
more control and perspective ofsome, but it sounds like you guys
are taking a different approach,which really sounds interesting.
I'm sure this is bringing value to yourmanagers and to your employees as well.
Kevin O'Bold (13:11):
Yeah, and it was hard to find a partner that could do it custom.
Because like you said,everyone goes the opposite way.
Saying I've got a one size fits all.
To be able to find that partnershiphas been really beneficial.
Tal Clark (13:21):
That's good.
Well, let's talk a little bit aboutwhat you're seeing going forward, Kevin.
What are some of the other thingsthat, in your role you're touching
a little bit of everythingwithin that restaurant business.
What are you looking at that you wouldlike Instant or someone else to deliver
to you guys over the next three years?
What do you think, what's thenext big technology need for you
(13:43):
guys that you've got your eye on?
Kevin O'Bold (13:46):
Yeah.
For us, I think forecasting sales downto a granular level, maybe incorporating
AI is gonna be really important.
There's a lot of elementsto forecasting sales.
That's hard to do.
You can have a manager log fromlast year or last week to use your
comps off of but forecasting yoursales can hurt you either way.
If you under forecast your sales, you'regetting slammed, the employee experience,
(14:09):
the guest experience diminishes.
But if you over forecast orunder forecast sales, it can be
detrimental to your business.
We've got weather.
To focus on concert seasons.
Little league baseballs in town,traffic off the highway affected
your sales for a given night.
And we always say to our restaurantsto staff for the sales that you
(14:29):
want, not the sales that you have.
So when we've got three to fourtable stations, we're really focused
on making sure that we've got thepeople in place to drive sales.
But forecasting is reallythe starting point.
You build your schedules off that yourpars in the back a house off of that
your ordering systems off of that.
So the tighter you are the better yourmargins are gonna be flowing down.
Tal Clark (14:53):
Okay.
Kevin O'Bold (14:54):
And yet, yeah, go ahead.
Tal Clark (14:56):
No, I was gonna say I'm pretty much a novice to that part
of the restaurant business for sure.
So when you're talking aboutforecasting sales, is that,
are you doing that by location?
So is that the manager responsibilityto forecast back to you and
the team at headquarters.
Kevin O'Bold (15:12):
Yeah, so we asked them to forecast out at
least two weeks in advance.
That's how they set theirschedules is two weeks.
Some stores can do it on a more granularbasis, but, the tools that they have
are, they're sufficient, to some degree.
But we still think just being off 50 guestcounts or, a 100 bucks, 200 bucks here or
(15:32):
there really can make a big effect whenyou multiply it out 365 days, 10 locations
it's a big swing one way or the other.
Tal Clark (15:40):
Are there tools out there right now from an AI perspective that
you think are valuable from a forecastingperspective, or do you think that's
still something yet to be developed,to be proficient enough to help you?
Kevin O'Bold (15:52):
Yeah, the ones that we've looked at, they always seem to be add-ons
and it's hard to integrate them in.
So it's just another login,another thing to have in your
system, in your tech stack.
We really hope that the partnerswe're with now can develop them
and get it to where it needs to be.
But we may have to, just finda partner that, that knows what
we're looking for and can haveall of those elements built in.
(16:16):
You may have operators turnoverin this high turnover business,
and they weren't there last yearto experience that seasonality.
They weren't there to understandwhat that local market looked like.
So AI can bring all those differentvariables into play and help your
calculations and, and forecasting.
Tal Clark (16:33):
Well, that's interesting.
It sounds like there might be a businessopportunity out there for someone
if nobody's meeting that need yet.
So anything else from a labor optimizationperspective, compensation, anything
else that you're watching where youneed some help or do you feel like
you're in a pretty good spot there?
Kevin O'Bold (16:50):
I feel like we could always optimize labor a little bit better.
Scheduling analytics seemed to be anopportunity for us just getting the
right matrix set up being able to avoidovertime, having schedule enforcement go
back to the time and attendance system.
To make sure that they're notclocking in before you say
they're scheduled for their shift.
(17:11):
And we really wanna dive deeperinto performance metrics.
We have a philosophy ofyou eat what you kill.
We're very results driven.
So I want to see whatyour tip percentages are.
Are they trending higher or lower?
What are your comps look like?
What do your check averages look like?
When we have contests or LTOs, howmuch are you pushing those modifiers,
(17:33):
being able to track down to.
How much are you pushingmodifiers for somebody else?
All those kind of factor intohow you build your schedules.
And like we said, in the high turnoveren environment, it's hard to keep up.
Sometimes you really need a softwareand a tool that can manage the
whole bit for you to make your, yourlabor optimized as much as possible.
(17:55):
But I think sometimes we.
I get in this habit of just getting reallyexcited about all these new tools, AI
coming in, machine learning, and sometimesa lot of my operators have to slow me
down, say, Kevin, sometimes eliminatinga human element in the hospitality
space is not the right way to go.
We talked about doing thisat pay at the table devices.
(18:15):
I said, oh, you can get one that, thatdoes both, that sends the order back to
the kitchen when they take the order.
Then it also has a payment device whenthey're ready to, to close the checkout.
And they said, yeah, but that, thatpurposely takes away a human touchpoint
when you're taking their orderand writing it down, pen to paper.
So it's something that we've beenintentional to not touch and to
(18:37):
not eliminate from the experience.
And I've also been really interestedin dynamic pricing especially
with to go orders delivery online.
It's been a good experience becauseto me it works in airlines and
hotels and it has for decades.
Why can't it work for restaurants?
But just the consumerhas had some backlash.
(19:00):
I know Wendy's tried it a while agoand they had some bad press about it.
You really have to pay attentionto your models and limitations.
But, we, we've tested itand seen what it can do.
But, again, it's just, it'snot the right time to do it.
And add that confusion to the gueststhat it's coming in, expecting a certain
value and then you surprise 'em withhey, you're ordering at this time of
(19:21):
day, so the price has jumped on you.
Tal Clark (19:23):
Well, I'm with you on a lot of things, but I can't imagine
if I if I went in one day, myhamburger was seven bucks and I went
in two days later was nine bucks.
Kevin, I might be alittle irritated with you.
Kevin O'Bold (19:32):
Exactly.
Tal Clark (19:33):
Well, look, you've had a strong career path at Ultra Steak
and I'm sure it's, you've got moreto come and you've really done some
great things at that organization, Ithink you've been ahead of the curve
and payments and pay at the table.
And what we've done with you guys fortips and payouts and the whole deal.
So what advice would you give to othersin a restaurant or hospitality space
(19:55):
that really are looking to maybe they'repart of a restaurant group today and
they wanna move into a leadershiprole, or, or maybe it's someone that's,
graduating from a university somewhereand considering getting in the hospitality
space, what advice would you share?
Kevin O'Bold (20:11):
Yeah.
I would say begin with the end in mind.
It's the Stephen Covey SevenHabits of Highly Effective People.
You, you have to establish thatclear vision, get design the systems,
intentionally build the leadership toget you where you want to go but also
keep that balance between your, yourpeople side and your metrics side.
(20:32):
Sometimes the high growth companies canbe too numbers focused and you need to
remember that human leadership element.
Stop to give recognitionand encouragement.
And I think I'm also proof thatyou don't have to come from the
hospitality space to contribute valueto an organization and help it grow.
So I can't even cut meat very well,but I can help out in other ways.
(20:55):
And I think just having theright people on the bus.
Making sure they're in theright seat is very important.
You can have a lot of talented people,but if you don't organize them in the way
that they can best contribute to the team,you may not get where you want to go.
And I heard a really good quotefrom Jim Sullivan a long time ago.
He defined what perfect hospitality was.
(21:16):
He says 'That's when the guestdoesn't have to ask for anything.'
And I just thought, that's impossible.
There's no way you're gonna readthe guest's mind at all times.
And anticipate what their needs are.
But it's a really cool challenge,and something that we strive to
achieve and always improve upon.
So I think just striving for thatperfection is really what it's all about.
Tal Clark (21:39):
Super.
Well, Kevin, I think that's greatand I appreciate you, appreciate
the partnership and I reallyhave enjoyed our conversation.
Thank you for joining us on this two partseries for the Instant Payments Podcast.
Your perspective on the restaurantoperations, the finance and
technology that we've talkedabout is incredibly insightful and
we really appreciate your time.
(22:00):
To our audience.
You can follow Kevin's work andlearn more at UltraSteak.com.
And be sure to subscribe to the InstantPayments podcast at instant.co/podcast
or wherever you listen.
Leave us a review and tell uswho we should talk to next.
Kevin, thanks again andthank you for tuning in.
Talk to you guys soon.
Welcome to the Instant Payments Podcast.
I'm your host, Tal Clark,CEO of Instant Financial.
And we're back for part two of ourconversation with Kevin O'Bold,
VP of Finance at Ultra Steak, arestaurant company that operates brands
including Aspen Creek Grill, AspenTap House, and Slim Chickens with
more than 3,000 employees nationwide.
Kevin, thanks again for joining us.
(00:27):
Let's jump back in.
One of the things I wanted to reallypick up from our last conversation
where we left off was you weretalking about pay at the table and as
someone who has been in and around thecredit card, debit card, prepaid card
processing business for about 20 years,
I, along with probably anybody elsein that space really appreciates that.
I see restaurants today, especiallynormally smaller, privately operated
(00:50):
restaurants that are giving discounts forcash, and it drives me a little crazy.
I have to say that, and it just drivesme a little crazy because the cost
of handling cash is so much more thanthat couple of percentage points that
you're paying for that credit card use.
And you mentioned that tips are goingup because you've got pay at the
table using your credit card, whichagain, everybody in the space knows
(01:14):
that and tries to communicate that.
The checks in the restaurantsgo up as well, right?
If people are paying with credit card,they're gonna spend more money with you.
You're not going to have anycost of cash handling and your
employees get paid more with tips.
Would you agree with all that?
Kevin O'Bold (01:30):
Yeah, you nailed it.
I mean, that's the ancillarybenefits from the business side of
things of why we can roll it out.
Tal Clark (01:37):
Yeah, it drives me a little crazy.
So that's probably a littleoff topic here for us.
But when I see that in a restaurantor any establishment especially
those that position themselves ashigher end restaurants and you're,
and then you get a check that wantsyou to give you a discount for pay
cash, I'm like, are you kidding me?
Anyway, so that's a little bit off topic.
Well, let's talk about.
Let's talk again about the tips piece ofthis and you mentioned tips are going up.
(02:02):
We've been working with you guys fora little bit on tips really since
2020 to make sure we've got you ina digital tipping environment and
a pay card solution so everybodygets their money in real time.
You've processed we're showing you'veprocessed more than 575,000 tips with
us, totaling over $30 million alongwith another $6 million going to back
(02:25):
of house employees will payroll card.
You're also seeing a $52 average tipand a $80 average payout in 2025.
And 7,000 all time active users.
From your perspective, just gimme a littlebit on how partnering with instant and
then just electronic payments in generalhas added efficiencies to your business.
Kevin O'Bold (02:46):
Well, just you reading off those numbers just
wow, that's a lot of employees.
That's a lot of years that we'vebeen doing this and just shows
you how important tipping isto a full service restaurant.
It brings me back to just ask like,how did we do this beforehand?
It wasn't that long ago, but it seemsonce you do it, you can't go backwards.
We used to have stores thatwould handle cash in envelopes.
(03:09):
Obviously, they would not wantto pay that cash out daily.
They'd hold onto it.
So you're talking probably a week,maybe even two weeks if we decided
to put it on a paycheck that thoseemployees are getting their cash.
Sometimes they're confused onwhat those calculations are.
It's not really transparent, it'sjust someone hand you some cash,
maybe showing you a report, but it'sa POS messy report in the backend.
(03:31):
They, they don't know really howto read it, maybe understand it.
And you've gotta somehow communicatethat to payroll for W2 purposes.
They've gotta know how to recordit at the end of the year.
And I just think that it had so manybenefits to us to go electronic and
really help the employees experience aswell, which is what really sold us on it.
(03:52):
We've talked about they can nowreceive their tips daily, or even we
run a lunch shift and a dinner shift.
We can do a mid shift and they canhave their money before they walk
out to the parking lot to go home.
That improves their financialsituation and their personal cash flow.
I also think some of them use justthe tip cards as a bank in a way.
We have so many underbanked employees, soit's a free mobile app that they can use.
(04:15):
So it's a quasi bankingrelationship that they have.
And I think it increasestheir transparency.
They can see the transactionscoming in and out.
There's that audit trail thatwe can have on the backend to
help communicate that with them.
And then I've talked aboutbefore, just the safety aspect.
That we were very concerned that wehad, several people, 20, 30 people every
(04:36):
night leaving in a dark parking lot,1:00, 2:00 AM after a long shift, and
then they've got cash in their pocket.
And we didn't like thatsafety concern for them.
So just being able to move itelectronically and everyone
knows that we're doing thatincrease that peace of mind.
Tal Clark (04:53):
Yeah.
Kevin O'Bold (04:55):
I think we talked about just the courier service changes as well.
I did not expect this.
I knew it would help a little bitwith the cash handling, but we were
able to cut our courier servicein half after we rolled this out.
So just not having to deal withthe courier service or picking up
and just how expensive that is.
And, sometimes they're late, sometimesthey don't bring their change order.
(05:15):
Well, the less cash that we have, theless of concerns those were for us.
We've eliminated those issues.
Tal Clark (05:21):
That's great.
For anybody that's listening andthat may not be familiar with that.
And, I've heard some details aroundcost at other places, but what does
that courier service typically cost?
Is it, do they charge by trip orby the volume of money they bring?
How do they charge andwhat does that look like?
Kevin O'Bold (05:38):
Yeah, they'll nickel and dime you.
It's a very much, it dependswhere the vault is that they
have to deliver the cash to.
It depends how much timethey have in your restaurant.
So I think a lot of our locationsare down to eight minutes or less.
You've gotta get 'em in,you gotta get 'em out.
You gotta find a manager that can openthe safe for them, have them count it, get
your receipts and get them out of there.
(05:59):
Because they'll start chargingyou extra if they have to be
behind on their shift for the day.
You're, you're trying to managethat the best you can, but you got
a thousand things to worry aboutduring a shift at a restaurant.
And it's almost like they're not heldaccountable to when they have to be at
your back door every single day and whenthey're gonna be on time and be efficient.
(06:20):
So you don't know what you'regonna run into with the safes too.
They could have some kind oftechnical or connection issue
opening it up and counting it.
Something could break.
A spring could be loose.
So you're just managing thatwhole piece of the courier service
process and it adds up real quickly.
Tal Clark (06:36):
Yeah.
It's crazy.
Go back to, again, you thinkabout people actually doing things
that might bring cash into arestaurant, which is just crazy.
And the other way to deal with this,some places and they're becoming
more rare, some places have electedto push tips to a normal payroll
cycle, which is typically two weeks.
We think that's a pretty awfuldecision, especially from an
(06:58):
employee's perspective that wouldlike to receive their money every day.
Did you guys even ever think aboutthat at all, or did you ever push
any tips to payroll before this?
Kevin O'Bold (07:08):
Some locations we did that just because, I think it was
at the time, the easiest way to, toget it all correct and get it in the
employee's hands in the best way.
But you actually would start to see likea, from a recruiting and retention effort,
new hires would come into our restaurants,never worked for us and they're like,
Hey, I worked down the street at thisrestaurant, and they've got tip cards.
(07:30):
I get my tips in this way electronicallyat the end of every shift.
So this is really hard to accept.
Or we'd have retention issues where theywould leave because they'd hear of a
friend saying- 'hey, come over here.'
You'll get cash in yourpocket a lot quicker.
And that's just something we didn'twant to lose to the competition
on what seems something that'ssimple that we can put in place.
(07:51):
And if employees are expecting itanyway, we gotta deliver on that.
Tal Clark (07:55):
Yeah, that makes sense.
And it is one of those thingsthat seems pretty obvious, right?
You have employees who'vebeen getting their money every
day, it may have been cash.
And we're able to get you and others outof the cash business without impacting
the way they have access to their money.
Have you guys, what are you doingin regards to so we talked about
getting cash outta the restaurants.
We talked about thetips piece a little bit.
(08:17):
What do you, what's yourfeedback from the employees?
Have you had much directfeedback from employees?
I guess you've seen some of the benefits.
You've seen recruiting and retentionbenefits but do you get much
direct feedback from employeesabout how you're managing their
tips and how they're receiving payand do they like what's going on?
Kevin O'Bold (08:35):
Yeah, it was, especially when we rolled it out,
it was night and day and theysaid, we're not going backwards.
We like this a lot.
We like having these cardsand we found some unique ways
to use it other than tips.
Sometimes we roll out contests.
We used to have to like, okay, we gottago get a gift card or something at a
gas station to, to hand out how are wegonna give them some time of a reward?
(08:57):
Well, sometimes they just want cash.
So you just say, okay, I'll giveyou your contest award winner
some money on your pay card.
Other times it's just unique waysof doing a per diem for travelers
going to a new store opening.
So it opened our mind to, okay, we can,we can use tip cards for that as well.
So we keep finding differentways to use it other than tips.
(09:17):
And so the employees love that,that it's got the flexibility.
Tal Clark (09:20):
Super, super.
I don't know if the team's told youyet, but we're working towards being
a hundred percent virtual card.
Goal of eliminating some of these plasticsthat you guys might be managing right now.
Definitely we'll stay in touch with youon that because things have changed so
much in the last four or five years.
We're talking about oneof those things, right?
Which is, let's, cash has gone away,but then we want to get the remainder
of the cash outta the restaurants.
(09:41):
And that's a big goal of oursin working with you and others.
But also, many of these legacy cardprograms have been the same since
I helped start one back in 2001.
And then there's someothers out there as well.
But, using plastic cards for thelast 24 years needs to go away
and it's time for it to go away.
So that's one thingwe're really focused on.
(10:02):
So hopefully we can get that toyou guys when you're ready and
eliminate the plastics that arethere, and go completely virtual.
What are you seeing inregards to incentives?
Do you guys talk complex tippooling or tips disbursements?
I know we're working with you now onsome software to manage some of that.
Talk a little bit about howthat's helped and what that's
meant for you guys as well.
Kevin O'Bold (10:23):
Yeah, so once we got on the tip card kind of system we took it a
level deeper and wanted to automate tippayouts, tip calculations, and tip pools.
What was unique, I think, for ourlocations is that we really needed
custom calculations per location.
We rolled this out six months ago workingwith you guys and I've got 10 locations
(10:46):
that we went live on, and all 10 had avery different way that they wanted to
allocate their tips to their tip pooland different strategies that they have.
One would just be, it's noteasy to recruit certain support
positions in the restaurant.
I've got one store that says I don't evenwant any hostesses in my pool because
(11:07):
they're easy to hire, but I can't hirebartenders, so I wanna weight more of
the pool payouts to bartenders so Ican you know, recruit and retain them.
Other stores are having drasticallydifferent like to go volumes.
And so just having those togo people also supported.
Maybe busing or food running.
Because we have lower volumeto gos at that location, they
(11:30):
can have a multi-purpose jobgetting them into the pool.
And then we have a couple locationsthat have a service well, that's
really unique and how they're working.
And the actual hours that they're working.
It's not very much, but theywant to be involved in the tip
pool to make it worth their time.
So just being able, theflexibility and customization.
To let the stores keepdoing what they're doing.
(11:51):
Because they know it works for theirlabor optimization and their recruiting.
But it also saves managers time becausethey don't have to manage this on an
Excel spreadsheet in the back officeor try to explain it to whoever's
closed on the restaurant that night.
It can be pretty complex and notreally understanding how it works.
And it could take a lot of time.
(12:11):
It take 20, 30, 40 minutes at ahigh volume restaurant to get all
this done at the end of the night.
And so we just eliminated allthat time and just said, log in.
You may have one thing you need to lookat just to do your checks and balances,
and as soon as you click that button topay everybody out, it'll happen instantly.
And, and we've got all thetransparency on the backend.
Tal Clark (12:32):
That's great.
It is great that it's adding value to you.
I did not realize that therewas a custom by restaurant
that was a benefit to you guys.
First of all, I think that's great tohear that really gives your managers
the opportunity to operate the storethe way they need to operate and I
think that might be unique relativeto maybe larger concepts because
(12:52):
I think typically what you hear iseverybody wants a one size fits all.
It helps them, I guess from a corporateperspective, maybe it helps to have
more control and perspective ofsome, but it sounds like you guys
are taking a different approach,which really sounds interesting.
I'm sure this is bringing value to yourmanagers and to your employees as well.
Kevin O'Bold (13:11):
Yeah, and it was hard to find a partner that could do it custom.
Because like you said,everyone goes the opposite way.
Saying I've got a one size fits all.
To be able to find that partnershiphas been really beneficial.
Tal Clark (13:21):
That's good.
Well, let's talk a little bit aboutwhat you're seeing going forward, Kevin.
What are some of the other thingsthat, in your role you're touching
a little bit of everythingwithin that restaurant business.
What are you looking at that you wouldlike Instant or someone else to deliver
to you guys over the next three years?
What do you think, what's thenext big technology need for you
(13:43):
guys that you've got your eye on?
Kevin O'Bold (13:46):
Yeah.
For us, I think forecasting sales downto a granular level, maybe incorporating
AI is gonna be really important.
There's a lot of elementsto forecasting sales.
That's hard to do.
You can have a manager log fromlast year or last week to use your
comps off of but forecasting yoursales can hurt you either way.
If you under forecast your sales, you'regetting slammed, the employee experience,
(14:09):
the guest experience diminishes.
But if you over forecast orunder forecast sales, it can be
detrimental to your business.
We've got weather.
To focus on concert seasons.
Little league baseballs in town,traffic off the highway affected
your sales for a given night.
And we always say to our restaurantsto staff for the sales that you
(14:29):
want, not the sales that you have.
So when we've got three to fourtable stations, we're really focused
on making sure that we've got thepeople in place to drive sales.
But forecasting is reallythe starting point.
You build your schedules off that yourpars in the back a house off of that
your ordering systems off of that.
So the tighter you are the better yourmargins are gonna be flowing down.
Tal Clark (14:53):
Okay.
Kevin O'Bold (14:54):
And yet, yeah, go ahead.
Tal Clark (14:56):
No, I was gonna say I'm pretty much a novice to that part
of the restaurant business for sure.
So when you're talking aboutforecasting sales, is that,
are you doing that by location?
So is that the manager responsibilityto forecast back to you and
the team at headquarters.
Kevin O'Bold (15:12):
Yeah, so we asked them to forecast out at
least two weeks in advance.
That's how they set theirschedules is two weeks.
Some stores can do it on a more granularbasis, but, the tools that they have
are, they're sufficient, to some degree.
But we still think just being off 50 guestcounts or, a 100 bucks, 200 bucks here or
(15:32):
there really can make a big effect whenyou multiply it out 365 days, 10 locations
it's a big swing one way or the other.
Tal Clark (15:40):
Are there tools out there right now from an AI perspective that
you think are valuable from a forecastingperspective, or do you think that's
still something yet to be developed,to be proficient enough to help you?
Kevin O'Bold (15:52):
Yeah, the ones that we've looked at, they always seem to be add-ons
and it's hard to integrate them in.
So it's just another login,another thing to have in your
system, in your tech stack.
We really hope that the partnerswe're with now can develop them
and get it to where it needs to be.
But we may have to, just finda partner that, that knows what
we're looking for and can haveall of those elements built in.
(16:16):
You may have operators turnoverin this high turnover business,
and they weren't there last yearto experience that seasonality.
They weren't there to understandwhat that local market looked like.
So AI can bring all those differentvariables into play and help your
calculations and, and forecasting.
Tal Clark (16:33):
Well, that's interesting.
It sounds like there might be a businessopportunity out there for someone
if nobody's meeting that need yet.
So anything else from a labor optimizationperspective, compensation, anything
else that you're watching where youneed some help or do you feel like
you're in a pretty good spot there?
Kevin O'Bold (16:50):
I feel like we could always optimize labor a little bit better.
Scheduling analytics seemed to be anopportunity for us just getting the
right matrix set up being able to avoidovertime, having schedule enforcement go
back to the time and attendance system.
To make sure that they're notclocking in before you say
they're scheduled for their shift.
(17:11):
And we really wanna dive deeperinto performance metrics.
We have a philosophy ofyou eat what you kill.
We're very results driven.
So I want to see whatyour tip percentages are.
Are they trending higher or lower?
What are your comps look like?
What do your check averages look like?
When we have contests or LTOs, howmuch are you pushing those modifiers,
(17:33):
being able to track down to.
How much are you pushingmodifiers for somebody else?
All those kind of factor intohow you build your schedules.
And like we said, in the high turnoveren environment, it's hard to keep up.
Sometimes you really need a softwareand a tool that can manage the
whole bit for you to make your, yourlabor optimized as much as possible.
(17:55):
But I think sometimes we.
I get in this habit of just getting reallyexcited about all these new tools, AI
coming in, machine learning, and sometimesa lot of my operators have to slow me
down, say, Kevin, sometimes eliminatinga human element in the hospitality
space is not the right way to go.
We talked about doing thisat pay at the table devices.
(18:15):
I said, oh, you can get one that, thatdoes both, that sends the order back to
the kitchen when they take the order.
Then it also has a payment device whenthey're ready to, to close the checkout.
And they said, yeah, but that, thatpurposely takes away a human touchpoint
when you're taking their orderand writing it down, pen to paper.
So it's something that we've beenintentional to not touch and to
(18:37):
not eliminate from the experience.
And I've also been really interestedin dynamic pricing especially
with to go orders delivery online.
It's been a good experience becauseto me it works in airlines and
hotels and it has for decades.
Why can't it work for restaurants?
But just the consumerhas had some backlash.
(19:00):
I know Wendy's tried it a while agoand they had some bad press about it.
You really have to pay attentionto your models and limitations.
But, we, we've tested itand seen what it can do.
But, again, it's just, it'snot the right time to do it.
And add that confusion to the gueststhat it's coming in, expecting a certain
value and then you surprise 'em withhey, you're ordering at this time of
(19:21):
day, so the price has jumped on you.
Tal Clark (19:23):
Well, I'm with you on a lot of things, but I can't imagine
if I if I went in one day, myhamburger was seven bucks and I went
in two days later was nine bucks.
Kevin, I might be alittle irritated with you.
Kevin O'Bold (19:32):
Exactly.
Tal Clark (19:33):
Well, look, you've had a strong career path at Ultra Steak
and I'm sure it's, you've got moreto come and you've really done some
great things at that organization, Ithink you've been ahead of the curve
and payments and pay at the table.
And what we've done with you guys fortips and payouts and the whole deal.
So what advice would you give to othersin a restaurant or hospitality space
(19:55):
that really are looking to maybe they'repart of a restaurant group today and
they wanna move into a leadershiprole, or, or maybe it's someone that's,
graduating from a university somewhereand considering getting in the hospitality
space, what advice would you share?
Kevin O'Bold (20:11):
Yeah.
I would say begin with the end in mind.
It's the Stephen Covey SevenHabits of Highly Effective People.
You, you have to establish thatclear vision, get design the systems,
intentionally build the leadership toget you where you want to go but also
keep that balance between your, yourpeople side and your metrics side.
(20:32):
Sometimes the high growth companies canbe too numbers focused and you need to
remember that human leadership element.
Stop to give recognitionand encouragement.
And I think I'm also proof thatyou don't have to come from the
hospitality space to contribute valueto an organization and help it grow.
So I can't even cut meat very well,but I can help out in other ways.
(20:55):
And I think just having theright people on the bus.
Making sure they're in theright seat is very important.
You can have a lot of talented people,but if you don't organize them in the way
that they can best contribute to the team,you may not get where you want to go.
And I heard a really good quotefrom Jim Sullivan a long time ago.
He defined what perfect hospitality was.
(21:16):
He says 'That's when the guestdoesn't have to ask for anything.'
And I just thought, that's impossible.
There's no way you're gonna readthe guest's mind at all times.
And anticipate what their needs are.
But it's a really cool challenge,and something that we strive to
achieve and always improve upon.
So I think just striving for thatperfection is really what it's all about.
Tal Clark (21:39):
Super.
Well, Kevin, I think that's greatand I appreciate you, appreciate
the partnership and I reallyhave enjoyed our conversation.
Thank you for joining us on this two partseries for the Instant Payments Podcast.
Your perspective on the restaurantoperations, the finance and
technology that we've talkedabout is incredibly insightful and
we really appreciate your time.
(22:00):
To our audience.
You can follow Kevin's work andlearn more at UltraSteak.com.
And be sure to subscribe to the InstantPayments podcast at instant.co/podcast
or wherever you listen.
Leave us a review and tell uswho we should talk to next.
Kevin, thanks again andthank you for tuning in.
Talk to you guys soon.
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