Igor Data - Trust, Trace, Takedown: Building Integrity in a Decentralized World

With Igor Data, CEO and co-founder of Blin Analytics, we dig into the real mechanics of crypto crime and why the difference between loss and recovery often comes down to minutes, not months. Igor pulls back the curtain on demixing methods, behavior pattern analysis, and how AI and automation sift millions of transactions before a human makes the call. The theft may be digital, but the tells are human: tempo, timing, liquidity choices, and the inevitable mistake that cracks a years-long laundering chain.

We unpack how mixers actually work, why law enforcement pressure has reshaped their use, and what it takes to trace funds from wallet to exchange in a way that stands up to scrutiny. Ethics are non-negotiable here: no release of sensitive leads without a confirmed case and a verified victim, and evidence goes to police to request KYC and freezes. That principle reflects a deeper theme—trust the math, not the marketing. Blockchain’s transparency is architectural, while personal privacy must be preserved until due process kicks in.

The conversation turns practical and strategic. You’ll hear why phishing still dominates loss events, how to design a 24/7 incident playbook that actually gets funds frozen, and what role game theory plays in predicting laundering routes. We explore the case for ultra-low-cost microtransactions to reduce the web’s dependence on surveillance ads, and we look ahead to the near future: AI-powered anomaly detection, black-market evasion tools, and why decentralized trust still pairs best with centralized enforcement. If you hold digital assets, lead a security team, or want a clear-eyed view of blockchain investigations, this is your blueprint for acting fast, staying ethical, and seeing patterns where others see noise.

If this conversation helped you think differently about crypto security and digital trust, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway or question—we read every one.

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Episode Transcript

Igor Data (00:00):
Yeah, so the reddest red flag of all red flags is the
user.
Oh.
The the weakest um link in thetechnology currently is the user
and technical literacy level ofthe user, unfortunately.
Most of the cases we face arephishing, something like this

(00:25):
without any uh sophisticated uhhacking.
Okay.
We have like few big hackingcases which are very loud per
year, but uh in reality, most ofthe cases we face is just
someone was working in thecompany and stole the key.

(00:47):
Oh and now this person hasaccess to the wallet, so they
stole the money and ran away.

Leticia Caminero (01:10):
Today um we are joined by someone who
doesn't just the co-system, hebuilds chills for the digital
world.
Igor Data.
Igor, data or data?

Igor Data (01:21):
Oh, whatever you want, honestly.

Leticia Caminero (01:23):
Hi, hi everyone.
Okay.
Igor Data is the CEO, aco-founder of BLIN Analytics, a
Geneva-based firm usingcutting-edge technology to track
stolen cryptocurrency and fightmoney laundering.
He's also a veteran builder oftech platforms from gamer

(01:43):
networks to medical system, witha unique flair for blending
technical architecture andinvestigating thinking.

In this episode, we ask (01:51):
can algorithms catch criminals
faster than they innovate?
Is transparency enough whentech itself can deceive?
And how do we build ethicalcode in a world where crime is
decentralized?
Welcome.

Igor Data (02:09):
Hello everyone.
Uh, my name is Igor Data.
I am uh CEO of BLIN Analytics.
We focus on tracing, stolencrypto assets, so we fight uh
money laundering on theblockchain.

Leticia Caminero (02:21):
Ah, that's great.
And how did you end up inGeneva?

Igor Data (02:25):
So, in fact, it was completely random.
I found a new opportunity aftermoving from US.
I moved to Switzerland, and I'mquite happy here.
This is an amazing country, Ilove it.

Leticia Caminero (02:38):
So we're both uh transplants.

Igor Data (02:41):
Yeah, yeah.

Leticia Caminero (02:42):
And you have navigated diverse industries:
gaming, medicine, petroleum, andnow crime fighting.
What unifying passion fuelsyour tech leadership in all of
these different industries?

Igor Data (02:56):
Yeah, this is simple.
I can tell you I like to makepeople happy.
And when I see my uh friends orcolleagues or some other people
struggle with in some area withtheir problems, I like to think
about these problems, gather asmuch information as I can.
So then I start to kind of uhrotate this problem, this

(03:21):
information space in my mind.
And at some point in time I cansee like that's it, I can
connect the dots and find asolution for this.
Then I start working with thesepeople to better understand how
they see the world and how tobuild the product in a way they
would like to have it, and thenI bring it to them and they're

(03:42):
happy.

Leticia Caminero (03:42):
So that's a beautiful statement.
So it's it's to to bring joyinto people's lives.
Yeah, that's very nice.
In BLIN Analytics, um, is onthe front lines of anti-money
laundering, a very um cross-edg,very heavy kind of um work that
you do and crypto cryptoinvestigations.

(04:04):
What's the hardest part offollowing the money in a
decentralized environment?

Igor Data (04:09):
So a few years ago, I would say it was mixers, and
mixers are the services designedespecially to obfuscate the uh
path and make it impossible totrace stolen assets, not exactly
stolen, it's nothing bad uh inthe mixer per se.
But the in my area, criminalswas always using mixers to

(04:33):
obfuscate the path of the assetsso we cannot trace them.
So we were we were able tosolve, let's say, unsolvable
task and uh find a way how todemix and start tracing.
That was the beginning of uhBleen Analytics.
By the way, BLIN stands forblockchain investigations, so

(04:56):
this kind of stuff, so it's soeasy.
And uh this is why I thought itwas this the most difficult
part.
But uh lately, when uh thesemixers was massively suppressed
by law enforcement agencies, Ican tell that the speed, how
quick police can react, is thenew let's say, weak spot because

(05:24):
the perpetrators, thecriminals, they never stop, they
keep running away with moneyand you have to run as quick as
they do to catch them, right?

Leticia Caminero (05:34):
Of course, yeah.
So you will say that uh is thereaction time that takes uh this
is crucial.

Igor Data (05:40):
Reaction time is crucial.
I would even say if you havesome digital assets and one day
you realize that they werestolen, you should run to police
and open criminal case the sameday.
Oh, okay.
Even the same hour if you cando that.

Leticia Caminero (05:56):
The moment you realize that something is off.

Igor Data (05:58):
It it might be um it might have really serious impact
on the success of um uhfreezing the assets.

Leticia Caminero (06:08):
Because the faster you you follow them right
after the act, the easier it isto catch them.

Igor Data (06:13):
In fact, first few steps are the most important.
And if criminals manage toreach uh some exchanges that
might drastically reduce theprobability of success of the
investigation.
I mean of freezing the assets.
The investigation itself cantake months, sometimes years in

(06:38):
some specific cases.

Leticia Caminero (06:39):
Yeah, because they need to take it to court,
it's to be robust, it takes alot of steps.
Yeah.

Igor Data (06:44):
But if you want your assets being recovered, you have
to act very quickly.

Leticia Caminero (06:50):
Yeah, okay.
So report the moment you seesomething, say something.

Igor Data (06:54):
Yeah, like yell something.

Leticia Caminero (06:58):
Um if all transactions on blockchain are
visible, then why criminalsexpect to get away with the
stolen assets and how?

Igor Data (07:08):
Yeah, so as I said, there are these kind of mixer
services, and they work in a wayum that you can you can follow
the money, right?
But you don't know who owns themoney.
It's like several people willapproach the table and will put
all their money on the table,mix it, and then you take the
same amount that you put, butyou didn't take your money, you

(07:32):
take someone else's money, andthey're mixed, they're split
into small pieces and thenmixed, and then you receive them
back.
So from outside, you can followthe money, but it's not the
criminal who um who stole theassets.
So you have to uh understandwho is on the other side owning

(07:53):
what part of this money, andrebuilding this takes a lot of
time, statistical analysis,math, clustering, AI, that's
like a lot of effort.

Leticia Caminero (08:04):
But and and in this mixer, it could be people
who are innocent who just uhhappen to be there.

Igor Data (08:09):
There are a lot of people who like to keep their
privacy high, so they usemixers.
But unfortunately, a few yearsago, about 80% of incoming money
into the mixer was some illicitasset.
Yeah.

Leticia Caminero (08:28):
Okay, okay.
So it's it's more likely to beillicit than to be illegal.

Igor Data (08:32):
Yeah, that's why they were um highly uh suppressed by
sanctions.
You cannot disable the servicethat runs on blockchain because
it's decentralized, but you mayscare all good people to have a
risk that their real good assetswould be frozen, so they stop.

Leticia Caminero (08:55):
They won't be able to use them, yeah.

Igor Data (08:57):
Yeah, so they used it to some degree for some like
specific cases, but you don'tput a lot of money there
anymore.

Leticia Caminero (09:04):
Okay, because you you have the risk of us
being frozen just because itlooks suspicious.
Yeah.
Okay, it makes sense, makessense.
And if you're generally doingsomething, the last thing that
you want is to lose your money.
Yeah, but when you're acriminal, you have more.
By the style of the hacker, doyou have an idea where they come
from?

Igor Data (09:22):
Yeah, by the style of the hacker, we have an idea
where they come from and evenwhere they are located on uh on
the planet, most probably.
And is it one person, like fewpeople, or it's a big uh group,
or we can see that.
Yeah.

Leticia Caminero (09:39):
Well, that's interesting.
So it's like an artist.

Igor Data (09:43):
Yeah, so they all have distinct patterns, and what
we do when we startinvestigation, we build
behavioral pattern and then weuse automation tool to filter
millions of transactions to usefind the same behavioral
pattern, and then we analyze itmanually.
So we do not rely fully on theatom on automation, but uh we

(10:05):
use a lot of automation in ourwork.

Leticia Caminero (10:08):
So it sounds very close to the criminal
profiling way that what they dowhen they try to assess uh the
kind of person that they'redealing with or trying to find
the criminal.
Yeah.
Well, it's very interesting.
It's very interesting.
Yeah, it's very interesting.
There's a lot of uh a lot ofthings that you wouldn't think
is because for me it sounded itsounded at the beginning, it
sounded like it's just one andzeros and this very boring kind

(10:28):
of transaction, but no, it takesuh you have to know apart from
technology, psychology, you haveto know a lot of different
things.

Igor Data (10:35):
When to dive into that, you start seeing people.

Leticia Caminero (10:39):
Yeah, exactly, because people are uh hiding
behind all these technologies.
Yeah.
Okay, that's that's veryinteresting.
I love that.
I love that it's it's it's alsomore than it's more an art than
a science.

Speaker 9 (10:52):
It is an art, yeah.

Leticia Caminero (10:54):
Um you're dealing with real crime, real
money, real victims, and ofteninvisible code.
How do you balance efficiencyand ethics when building your
tools?

Igor Data (11:05):
Yeah, so the basis is that ethics is a very important
thing for us, so we neverrelease any data until there is
a criminal case with confirmedthe victim.
So the victim should go topolice and confirm that there is

(11:27):
their assets are stolen.
They open the criminal case.
We can start the investigationbefore until this like this
takes time sometimes.
But uh for this information tobe released, we need to have a
confirmed open criminal case.

Leticia Caminero (11:43):
Okay, you you need you need to have the backup
of the official authorities tobe able to work to make sense.

Igor Data (11:49):
And moreover, we have no right to get information
about the criminals.
So we trace them to theendpoints, like for example,
this is the exchange.
So we give this information topolice and say your money are
there.

Speaker 5 (12:03):
Okay.

Igor Data (12:03):
We ask them to freeze the asset temporarily.
Now you need to dive in ourreport and go to confirm them if
you believe so.
And then police requests theinformation about uh like KYC
information, IP addresses, allthat.
Um we cannot do that.

Leticia Caminero (12:22):
Of course.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We never do that.
Yeah, because you have theyou're you're not police
enforcement, so you have to youhave to be able to work
together.

Speaker 3 (12:29):
And you cannot go knocking on the door, like, hey,
I know you have yeah, I knowyou have something that's not
yours.

Igor Data (12:35):
Yeah, so we see a lot of movement on the blockchain,
we understand what is happening,moreover.
We follow other cases on opendata.
We like to follow everything wecan because it helps us to
understand where are ourclients' money and where
definitely not our clients'money.
Let's say North Koreans I saythey have this distinct pattern,

(12:58):
and it's very easy to removethem from uh the scene so we
don't spend time tracing them.
Yeah, but yeah.

Leticia Caminero (13:06):
So it you you go by um we call that like by um
descart.
So you you take something andyou go, this is it doesn't fit
this pattern, so you take thatperson out, or you take that
group out, and then you say,Okay, it doesn't, and then you
go very much, it's like it'salso like a scientific kind of
uh uh work because you you knowexactly what you're looking for,

(13:28):
correct?
So you don't waste your time.
Makes sense, yeah.

Igor Data (13:31):
Not only that, but uh also we dive into these
blockchain transactionsmanually, we look at them,
think, uh discuss, and it takestime.

Leticia Caminero (13:41):
Yeah, but it's so you enter a bit of the
criminal mind as well.
You you you try start thinkinghow they will think or how how
they react.

Igor Data (13:50):
Yeah, math and game theory helps here like a lot.
If you store some assets, youcan spend some portion of these
assets to launder this money,but you cannot spend a lot,
right?
You cannot spend more than youstore.

Speaker 8 (14:06):
Of course.

Igor Data (14:06):
Yeah, and you cannot spend like the same amount, most
probably, because it you haveno profit.
So that creates kind of balancebetween how much they are
willing, the perpetrators arewilling to spend on the money
laundering, and that limitstheir possibilities.

Leticia Caminero (14:26):
Oh, and do they have any preference of what
they they like to spend on?

Igor Data (14:31):
Yeah, you know, it's seasonal.
Like this year it's that, nextyear it's something different,
and it's kind of funny to lookhow they change their
strategies, most of them.
As you said in the beginning,the criminal innovation is very
scary, but in fact, most of thecriminals they are quite boring

(14:56):
and they follow the usualpatterns.
Most probably they discuss itwith other criminals, or they
don't know what we know, forexample, that uh we are already
seeing these patterns.
So, in fact, they don't reallylike to innovate.
They more like they hope thateverything will be fine for

(15:18):
them.

Leticia Caminero (15:19):
They go for the short things.
So do they buy virtual items ordo they buy physical items with
the money?

Igor Data (15:26):
If they buy physical items too early, they're they're
caught very fast.

Leticia Caminero (15:34):
Because then the m it's very easy to trace
the money.

Igor Data (15:37):
Okay.
There was a case like severalbillions, four billion, and uh
after several years oflaundering, the guy was caught
after a payment for, I don'tremember, PlayStation game or
something.

Speaker 3 (15:55):
Okay, so uh by by something very um not even that
expensive.

Igor Data (16:00):
Yeah, it was a mistake.
It's definitely it was amistake.
We uh we shared the data withuh FBI and we had this call and
uh showed them the structure wesee.
It was a huge structure, and uhafter uh some investigation on
the FBI side, they saw thatthere was a payment, and this

(16:24):
payment has a lot of personalinformation, and it was the end
uh of the investigation in thisin this case, and the guy uh the
guy went in jail and it was ahuge case.
Yeah.

Leticia Caminero (16:36):
Oh wow, by a so so minimal mistake, but there
you go, there's no perfectcrime, right?

Igor Data (16:41):
So there's don't do mistakes.
All of them think they willnever do mistakes, but this was
like several years.
You cannot you cannot launderthe same assets on the
blockchain where everyone seeswhat you do for several years
and never do a single mistake.
Okay, yeah, yeah.

Leticia Caminero (16:57):
We're humans, even criminals.

Igor Data (17:00):
Yeah.

Leticia Caminero (17:01):
Especially them.
Okay, interesting.
But I always have this um thisidea, you know, that the money
heist kind of films, all ofthis, uh, they're very good
criminals are smart andhandsome.
They're smart andsophisticated.
So everyone, everyone isrooting for the criminal, but
the reality is very different.
But I always wonder what whythey don't have an escape uh in

(17:24):
the real life, why they don'thave a sole escape route.
Because I think it's that ifI'm I'm not a criminal, I don't
have that mind.
I'm actually on the oppositeside, I'm a lawyer, right?
Uh, but I always wonder if if Iever do something extremely
crazy, I will try to have a wayout.
Because sometimes they do it,and then they're in the middle
with holding the holding the potof gold and they don't know

(17:46):
what to do with it.

Igor Data (17:48):
In fact, I can't say that the cases that we follow
there we crack them.
Uh, but a lot of cases are justclosed and not even
investigated because policedon't have enough uh resources
and time.
So a lot of criminals just gotlucky.

Leticia Caminero (18:07):
Oh, because it's it's not uh it's not as big
to for to be to be followed.

Igor Data (18:12):
Because they maybe they stole too little.

Leticia Caminero (18:14):
Okay.

Igor Data (18:15):
So no no one wants to invest time to to trace them,
unfortunately.

Leticia Caminero (18:20):
This is no recommendation for anyone to do
anything criminal.

Igor Data (18:24):
It's it's again the game theory comes into play
because if you stall just alittle bit, but in the same
time, you have the same risk asthe guy who stole several
billions.
But like, would would you wouldyou like to do that?
Uh it's kind of stupid.

Leticia Caminero (18:38):
And and and it's always in your head.
Once you once you do somethinglike that, you always I I well,
I will I will feel foreversomeone is looking at me.
I wouldn't I wouldn't havepeace.
I will ever feel like someoneuh is after me.

Igor Data (18:51):
So it's true.
And and they are lawenforcement, usually is slow but
uh imminent.

Speaker 3 (18:58):
It will catch you.

Igor Data (19:00):
They yeah, they they're they follow all that.

Leticia Caminero (19:12):
Um what role do you think blockchain can
really play in increasingdigital trust beyond the hype?

Igor Data (19:20):
So digital trust is an interesting thing when you
talk about blockchain, it's alittle bit counterintuitive.
Um as blockchain doesn't relyon trust and it does rely on
math.

Leticia Caminero (19:34):
Okay.

Igor Data (19:35):
It kind of increases trust into other uh agents on
the blockchain because if youknow that if uh it was accepted
by blockchain, it means thatit's there, it's true.
If you receive the transfer ofmoney, uh it's it's yours now.
No one can like do nothingexcept stealing your keys or

(19:56):
some other things, but if it'son the blockchain, it's yours,
and you don't need to trustanyone, and it removes the trust
from the um from the equation,from the equation, and it by
that in fact it sensitivizesmore to trust to other agents
because you don't need to buildthis trust beforehand.

(20:20):
Yeah, you can start working,you can do payments.
You if you see the smartcontracts that is activated
automatically in some cases,then it means it's activated
automatically and the eventhappened.
So you don't need to havetrust.
And in this case, it kind ofremoves uh headache about uh

(20:41):
should I trust and until whatpoint.
And if I trust this thisperson, yes, like if I trusted
yesterday, should I trust ittomorrow?
Okay, um, and um that removesall that, and I truly believe
blockchain is an amazing thingthat incentivizes trust by

(21:03):
removing trust from equation.

Leticia Caminero (21:05):
So the system is is is through in in itself,
yeah.
So you don't need to have uhthe the the mental load of
thinking, oh, should I trust itor not?
Because if you understand howit works, then by itself you
say, okay, I know the system isbuilt in a way that it cannot be
fooled.

Igor Data (21:23):
You trust the system.
Okay, you trust the system.
You trust the math.

Leticia Caminero (21:29):
What's one technological red flag you think
people ignore too often?

Igor Data (21:35):
Yeah, so the reddest red flag of all red flags is uh
the user.
Oh.
The the weakest um link in thetechnology currently is the user
and technical literacy level ofthe user, unfortunately.
Most of the cases we face arephishing, something like this,

(22:00):
without any uh sophisticated uhhacking.
Okay, we have like few bighacking cases which are very
loud per year, but uh inreality, most of the cases we
face is just someone was workingin the company and stole the

(22:22):
key.
Oh and now this person hasaccess to the wallet, so they
stole the money and ran away.
Or it was uh a phishing websiteor something else, something
like an email scene.
An email, and most of thepeople they they can tell when
they see the phishing emails,but they don't think that you're

(22:45):
stupid, they just look for themoments when you're sick, drunk,
tired, whatever distracted,yeah, distracted.
So they just it's a numbersgame, they send thousands and
thousands of emails hoping thatsome of one person will just
click the wrong button on thewrong day.

Leticia Caminero (23:03):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (23:04):
Well, my my parents are are a bit elderly now, and
my father, he always gets hethankfully now he asks uh us uh
what we think when he receivedthese kind of emails, but he
always I think he's in a in alist of potential easy to get
kind of uh um uh victims becausehe often gets this all these

(23:27):
emails from from his bank, fromuh from people asking for uh for
business venture for all thosethings.

Leticia Caminero (23:34):
And my father, he always trusts, he always
thinks it's it's it's somethingthat is trustworthy, but now at
least he asks.
But he has had some uh someincident, nothing major, but uh
still um he's he's oftentargeted in that way.
And I've seen that a lot thatthey often also target people
who are vulnerable, but maybenot in the in the in the

(23:55):
sophisticated world of theblockchain, which is uh a
different kind of um uh of user,but um overall is has you as
you were saying that they playwith the vulnerabilities.
So they play with uh people whoare not in the right mind in
the right moment, or people whoare um just doing something
else, and they they seesomething quick and they don't
really uh reflect on it.

(24:15):
So they they really play withthe um with whatever the person
might be maybe coming through oror happening in that moment.

Igor Data (24:22):
So true.
And in case of a bank, you cancall them and say, hey, uh stop
this payment or whatever, startthe investigation right now,
call the other bank and freezewhatever you can.
In blockchain, it's poof andit's it's gone.

Leticia Caminero (24:35):
It's gone.
It's gone.
Yeah, that's scary.
Yeah, so be careful what's uhso it's it's mostly like uh um
the behavior that they they'relooking for weaknesses, yeah.

Igor Data (24:48):
And they do it in a in a large scale to have uh a
few, just random, yeah, justrandom, hoping that someone will
click something by mistake.
And uh, if that happens, Ihighly recommend to act as
quickly as possible and putemotions aside for a few hours,
run to police, start thecriminal case, call us, and uh

(25:10):
we can if it's first hours, wecan try to freeze as much as we
can.

Leticia Caminero (25:17):
Okay, you can cry at the police station.
Yeah, if you need to.

Igor Data (25:20):
I would even say that if uh if we're talking not
about uh people but about thecompanies that deal with digital
assets on the blockchain, Iwould highly recommend to have
the protocol of actions, whatyou do in case it happens.
I understand that we don't wantto think about it, but in case
that happens, there should bealready a lot of questions

(25:45):
answered.
Who is going to present thecompany and go to police, start
open the case in what country,what legal entity, because some
companies have several legalentities.
So you should decide in whatcountry, in what exactly police
department you will go, who youwill talk to, when, and you have

(26:05):
to have these people on the onthe call on the phone 24-7 for
this case.
So it's kind of like if firehappens in the office, you need
to have a designated personwho's gonna lead the group who
will do any anything because alleveryone else will run in

(26:25):
circles and like cry and yell.

Leticia Caminero (26:28):
Yeah, yeah.
So it that's that's uh uh agreat advice.
So before anything happens,there should be a uh everyone
should know their roles.
Yeah, so uh the one who has togo to the police, the one who
has to gather the evidence, theone who who needs to also inform
the rest, so it stops all that.
So it's interesting to do itbeforehand.
So the person is kind ofprepared and know how they they

(26:51):
they go into action mode insteadof panic mode.

Igor Data (26:54):
Yeah, definitely.
That really helps.
So you need to have someprocedures to prevent these
kinds of situations, but youalso should have some procedures
to act quickly when it happens.
Just reach out, I can helpdefinitely to set up this kind
of stuff.

Leticia Caminero (27:12):
Yeah, makes sense, makes perfect sense.

Speaker 3 (27:13):
Don't panic.

Igor Data (27:15):
You panic after.

Speaker 3 (27:16):
Panic after, yeah.
The aftershock.

Igor Data (27:19):
Do this, do that, and then you can panic when someone
else and professionals are onthe case.

Speaker 3 (27:23):
Yeah, you hand over and then you can you can go to
your corner and panic.

Igor Data (27:27):
You can panic for a couple of months after.

Leticia Caminero (27:31):
Um, if we have um if we gave you the power to
redesign one digitalinfrastructure from scratch,
finance, ID, or regulatorycompliance, which will you
choose and why?

Igor Data (27:45):
Oh, honestly, this one not about blockchain.
Can I say, but maybe aboutblockchain?
I don't know.
It's not uh it's not I amreally annoyed with this the
price of the transactions of umlike bank card transactions,
Visa and MasterCard.
Um when you go to theconvenience store and they say

(28:06):
like at least five bucks, and orwe don't we cannot do the
transaction, it's because theprice of the transaction is
about 15-10 cents per eachtransaction.
And uh that is in fact thereason why we have so much
advertising on the internetbecause we don't have small
transactions, we don't havemicrotransactions, so they kind

(28:27):
of have to survive.
And uh, I honestly, if we couldrebuild this part, that would
really help everyone.
Convenience stores that wouldreduce the amount of advertising
on the internet, and um thatwould really help us to see the
world differently.
You like the post, you can likesend a couple of cents, and uh

(28:49):
it really helps to incentivizecreators, I believe so.

Leticia Caminero (28:55):
So to remove the uh the barrier of entry for
this transaction, yeah.
Because you have to have aminimum in order to be able to
pay for a transaction currently.
So the idea would be to make itopen.

Igor Data (29:10):
Yeah, yeah.
It would be great.
I hope we're gonna get there inuh in a couple of decades
because this Visa and MasterCarduh transaction networks, let's
say they were born when uhcompute resources were very
expensive.
Let's say it was a good thing.

Leticia Caminero (29:26):
It was a different world.

Igor Data (29:27):
Currently, it's um I would say it became several
times maybe orders magnitudecheaper.
So I hope I hope it the time iscoming for us to move from 10
cents to one cent transactions.

Leticia Caminero (29:42):
And then no cents.

Igor Data (29:44):
At some point in time, we might end up something
like this, yeah.
Okay.
Might end up.

Leticia Caminero (29:49):
So to make sure that the it is there's
there's no block in the process.
Yeah.
So if you wanna uh how how muchmoney do you want to send, you
will be.
Able to send it without the theminimum.

Igor Data (30:02):
Yeah, it's like public transport.
It might be not profitable, butit incentivize the economy in
the country.

Leticia Caminero (30:10):
So yeah, it's a public service.

Igor Data (30:13):
Yeah, it might we might end up having these kind
of transaction networks beingextremely cheap and not very
efficient, but at leastextremely cheap and on a
government level, maybe.
I'm not sure.
But I truly believe we mightend up with some kind of
blockchain structure.

Speaker 9 (30:31):
Okay.

Igor Data (30:32):
At the end.
Because it's it becomes moreand more efficient.
On the other hand, someblockchains they grow very fast.
But yeah, this honestly, from agovernment point of view,
blockchain is so transparent ifthey control it.
So I believe government willforce us to use blockchain in

(30:52):
like 30 years or so.

Speaker 8 (30:54):
Okay.

Igor Data (30:55):
Because they will be able to control everything, see
everything.
But on the other hand, youdon't know who's owning the
money because you cannot connectthe address on the blockchain
with the person.
But on the government side,they might force you to provide
the thing, and they will seeeverything, but uh the citizens

(31:20):
will not be able to see whatthey do each other of them.
Yeah.

Leticia Caminero (31:24):
Okay.
Okay.
Because they will have uh theprivilege information as the
government.

Igor Data (31:29):
It's kind of scary, but we can see about that.
Well, they already knoweverything about us, so not not
like not like everything, butyeah, a lot.

Leticia Caminero (31:39):
I um um I have a very clear idea of what I
think the future is gonna beabout um in 20, 30 years.
And I do believe that this umprivacy itself is not gonna be a
concept that we're gonna umthat we're gonna enjoy the same
way that we enjoy now.
Because the more technologygets into everyday life, the

(32:02):
more connected we are, the moreuh uh footprints we leave
behind.
So there's gonna be a pointthat it's it's gonna be
virtually everything that we doduring the day that is gonna be
recorded somehow.

Igor Data (32:14):
Yeah, true.
But it depends also on thesystem because the meanings to
control all these amounts ofinformation, if government has
this kind of technological uhthings to do that, it means that
we as um as people, we can alsohave a lot of technological

(32:35):
means to control the government.
So I hope it will kind of growto another system.
But uh yeah, in fact, on theperiod when government has
access to the technology that wedon't, it kind of gives
advantage on the umsurveillance.
But uh after some point intime, we become more and more

(33:00):
tech uh literate, so we start tocontrol government more and
more.
I mean, you can see that somegovernment officials they are
not aware of how technologyworks like at all.
And um it it creates like itgives more balance, yeah, it
creates a gap, yeah.
Unfortunately, but yeah.

Leticia Caminero (33:21):
Okay, okay.
So let's see, in in 50 years,we'd see we see it again and we
see who's right.

unknown (33:28):
Yeah.

Leticia Caminero (33:30):
Okay, so now we're gonna go to the flash
section.

Speaker 9 (33:33):
Let's do that.

Leticia Caminero (33:34):
Um, you have to pick one.
Um, you can also pick two orpick none.
Uh you're free to choose.
Um, and if you want to justifyyour choice, you can also
justify it, but you don't haveto.
Okay, are you ready?
Okay, let's go.
Okay.
Tracking the wallet or crackingthe code.

Igor Data (33:53):
So tracking tracking the wallet, I pick this one.
It's uh it's more interestingfor me.
Cracking the code is kind ofinteresting, but uh usually um
it's not how my brain works,unfortunately.

Leticia Caminero (34:04):
Okay, you like to follow the money?
Yeah.
Anti-money laundering rulesthat evolve slowly, or tools
that adapt fast.

Igor Data (34:13):
I pick both.
Okay.
Um tools should adapt fastbecause the world changes very
fast.
But if we have rules thatchanges very fast, it it's not
good.
So I prefer money launderingrules to evolve slowly, little
by little, and reflect what ishappening uh for some amount of

(34:36):
time, not just like yesterday.
And uh the tools should be dayone ready on the in the perfect
world that should be like that,yeah.

Leticia Caminero (34:47):
Okay.
Full transparency by design orprivacy first until suspicion
arises.

Igor Data (34:54):
I honestly believe privacy of the data is
important, extremely important,but transparency of the
architecture and of the code isalso the same level important.
So transparency of architectureand privacy uh of the data.

Leticia Caminero (35:14):
So the the both again.
Preventive algorithms orreactive intelligence?

Igor Data (35:22):
Currently, we like years and years we were um
trying to create best preventivepreventative algorithms, and
reactive intelligence was notfully automated, but currently
with the help of AI, we start tobe more reactive, more fast.

(35:44):
It's kind of evolution, and webecome faster creatures on the
net.

Leticia Caminero (35:49):
Yeah, and also you cannot really pursue a
crime that hasn't happened yet.

Igor Data (35:53):
Yeah.
So to some degree, yeah.
Uh huh.
Sometimes there are like a fewseconds or minutes when you can
see that already something ishappening.

Speaker 3 (36:02):
Something is building.
So you you you start lookinglike okay, just you see the
behavior and you know somethingis coming.
It's like the wave when it whenthe when the sea comes, comes
back, and you you know somethingis coming.

Igor Data (36:12):
Like a pimple more like that.

Speaker 3 (36:14):
Okay.
Oh god.

Leticia Caminero (36:31):
Centralized enforcement or decentralized
trust.

Igor Data (36:36):
So, yeah, as I said, decentralized trust.
Um, decentralized trust is likewhen you trust math and it
helps, but enforcement should becentralized.
Um, I truly believe we have todelegate the enforcement to some
controlled to some degree uhagencies, but uh decentralized

(36:58):
enforcement is kind of weird,but still possible at some point
in time.
But I don't believe that wehave technological means so far.
The the decentralizedenforcement, I don't see how it
may work currently in modernlife.

Leticia Caminero (37:16):
Okay.

Igor Data (37:17):
Protecting data sovereignty or pursuing digital
accountability, protecting dataand making big companies
accountable for their dataleaks, let's say, definitely.
We have to we have to protectour privacy.
We have to own our data.

(37:38):
Currently, our data is uh ownedby everyone else, theodal
companies, let's say, likeFacebook is kind of a country
and they own your that data andthey sell it, and uh you live
inside, and like othercompanies, they're similar in
their behavior.
So I believe we need to end theera of uh these kind of feudal

(38:04):
structures that own human data,and humans that don't own their
own data.
It's kind of weird, it'sincorrect.

Leticia Caminero (38:12):
So it's uh I I I like the the mental picture
of there's a tiny you in allthese companies just waving and
saying, Hey, take me back.

Igor Data (38:23):
Yeah, I have no power, no rights, and they can
ban you anytime, and they stillsell your data, and then they
hold all the control for now.

Leticia Caminero (38:31):
Disgusting.
Real time reporting orlong-term forensics?

Igor Data (38:38):
Real-time reporting is crucial currently for like
cases as usual criminal cases,let's say, but long time
forensics works really well whenyou fight um organized crime on
international level.

Leticia Caminero (38:58):
Okay.
Public private collaboration orindependent investigative
power.

Igor Data (39:04):
Independent investigative power is kind of a
big thing.
But I really hope that someaspects of the investigation
should always stay uh in controlof uh public agencies, law
enforcement agencies.
Yeah.
So yeah, but unfortunately Ihave to admit that if uh people

(39:31):
come to us to hire us to do theinvestigation, it means that the
public law enforcement agenciesor the police, they have no
possibility to perform theirduty and this is the problem
currently.
And in fact, I am starting anew project to create some tools

(39:54):
to give them to police that toallow them to act quicker.

Leticia Caminero (39:58):
Oh wow, that's great.
Can you tell us more?

Igor Data (40:00):
Yeah, it's um we we build a lot of tools internally
for our investigations, but theyhave almost no interface and
they have like verysophisticated parameters, and
it's uh not uh convenient to usethem.
So we we want to make them moreusable by normal people, not
just like data scientists orlike that, and try to allow

(40:25):
police to use them during theirinvestigations to automate some
cases.
Let's say if it will not workin 50% of cases, it's it's okay
if it will work automatically inother 50%, and it will just

(40:45):
unload this all this uh routinefrom police.
And if it if I say automatic,it means very fast.
Yeah, yeah.

Leticia Caminero (40:55):
Oh, that's wonderful.
That's wonderful.
I love that.
Yeah, me too.

Igor Data (40:59):
Thank you.

Leticia Caminero (41:00):
It's exciting also.

And uh final flash uh question: AI for flagging anomalies or (41:01):
undefined
human-led intuition.

Igor Data (41:12):
I would say uh both, because no, this is for the next
uh uh section.
Oh, it's we okay, okay.

Leticia Caminero (41:20):
AI AI for flagging anomalies or human-led
intuition.

Igor Data (41:24):
Both anyway.

Leticia Caminero (41:25):
Okay, same answer.

Igor Data (41:27):
To to train AI, you need to you need data labeled uh
usually or somehow processed byhumans by their intuition or
experience.
But AI itself is a tool thatallows allows you to see more,
and that makes you to get moreexperience, to see, to have

(41:48):
better understanding, and totrain better AI.
So it goes like in levels, oneafter another, and humans and AI
they work together to improveall the results of each other.
So it's kind of symbiosis.

Leticia Caminero (42:05):
Yeah, we still need humans, some of them.
Some okay, okay.
So now we're going to the game.
True or futurist.
So ready.
You have to choose either one.
Yeah.
Um, true meaning that is um itis happening right now, or it is

(42:27):
about to happen, uh uh, or isvery likely to happen.
And uh futurist meaning thatit's way in the future, sci-fi
is never gonna happen, maybe in50 years, 100 years, something
like that.
Okay.
Ready?

Igor Data (42:41):
Yeah.

Leticia Caminero (42:42):
Governments will use AI to flag suspicious
crypto transactions before theyare finalized.

Igor Data (42:48):
Yeah, true.
It's already there.
So it's already there, and uh,sometimes you can see that
something is happening even likea few seconds or minutes ago.
In some cases, you can detectit a few days before.
I mean, yeah, before I wouldsay before, seconds before,
minutes before, or sometimeshours or days in rare cases.
But all of that is alreadythere.

(43:11):
Luckily, in Europe we haveregulations that AI cannot be
the only decision maker.
You cannot you cannot show theAI report in the court and say
this is this AI decided, so weput this guy in jail.
So we don't we don't do thathere.
So it it it's it it's flagging,yes, it flags suspicious

(43:32):
transactions and it attractshuman attention to verify.

Leticia Caminero (43:37):
Okay, perfect.
So it's there, it's there.
Know your customer will evolveinto know your algorithm.

Igor Data (43:48):
I would say they will coexist.
Okay, in between uh the thequestion, the answer is very
simple.
You cannot put uh AI in jail sofar.
Yeah, so you need someone likeyour KYC stays, you need you
need someone who will be heldresponsible in some cases.
So you definitely need tounderstand the algorithms and AI

(44:10):
that stand behind uh thedecision making, but uh KYC
doesn't go anywhere.

Leticia Caminero (44:17):
Okay.
A hacker will eventually beprosecuted by an AI generated
forensic report.

Igor Data (44:24):
It's true.
The hacker is currently alreadyprosecuted by AI generated
forensic report, but you have toverify everything and collect
all the proofs and witness tothis particular case as a human.
You must do this manuallyanyway, and you have to explain
it to the judge anyway.

(44:46):
And uh you may use AI as atool, but you have to be the
decision maker as a human.

Leticia Caminero (44:54):
Okay, so it helps to build the case, but
there's a lot of still that thehuman has to do.

Igor Data (45:00):
Yeah, so AI itself cannot put the hacker into the
jail, but uh AI, in fact, does alot of work.

Leticia Caminero (45:07):
Okay, it's it's a good tool.
The centralized justice systemswill emerge to resolve Web3
disputes.

Igor Data (45:17):
I say it's kind of futuristic, but it doesn't mean
it will never happen because asI see the centralized justice
systems as a kind of new thing,new field, and they evolve.
And I would say every time westaying in our system currently

(45:38):
and seeing its flaws, we want tochange it and make it better.
So there the search for theperfect system never stops.
So we we always try to umdevelop the better system, but
as it takes time and uh try anderror approach.
So we need we will see a lot ofthem fail and we will see a lot

(46:01):
of them change and evolve.
And at some point in time, itmight lead that to the point
when we have a lot ofinformation to create even
better systems.

Leticia Caminero (46:12):
Okay, so the work is never done.

Igor Data (46:14):
The work is never done, and I I want to see the
progress in this area, it's kindof very interesting thing.

Leticia Caminero (46:19):
Okay.

Igor Data (46:20):
Yeah.

Leticia Caminero (46:21):
Anti-money laundering software will learn
to detect criminal intent beforetext and tone.

Igor Data (46:28):
Yeah, text and tone analysis is there already, so
it's true.
And I can tell we detect, we wedon't have text and tone on the
blockchain, but we can seetransactions, how they follow,
let's say we follow severalsequences of transactions, and
we can speak something at we cansay something about this

(46:51):
sequence.
They can be a lot of quicksmall transactions, or they can
be like scattered in time.
So this kind of analysis helpsus to understand more about what
is happening.
Sometimes you can see that theum the entity changed, so the
money got transferred to someother party that will focus on

(47:13):
money laundering.
So the hacker, let's say,steals the assets, and someone
else is laundering the assets,so they kind of exchange um to a
little bit less dirty money, sothey have very dirty and they
will focus on laundering.
And we can see that on theblockchain and from the pattern

(47:35):
itself, we can already detectthat.

Leticia Caminero (47:37):
Okay, so um between the criminals they have
the different roles then.

Igor Data (47:42):
It depends, yeah.
Sometimes if it's uh if it's uhif it's organized crime, yeah.

Leticia Caminero (47:48):
Okay, okay.
So one will be in charge oftaking, on the one uh
laundering, the other one of uhof of uh putting in a different
places.

Igor Data (47:56):
Yeah, it if that happens, you can definitely tell
that there is organized crimebehind.

Leticia Caminero (48:01):
Yeah, okay.
That's scary and interesting atthe same time.
Okay.
Privacy coins will be banned inmajor economies.

Igor Data (48:11):
I will say I don't believe so.
Okay.
Privacy coins, they they createa lot of problems when people
steal assets and they go toprivacy coins and it's
impossible to trace.
It's true.
But in fact, for some reason,hackers don't like them a lot.

(48:34):
Okay, because it's hard to sellthem, it's very easy to buy
them because you can buy them onthe exchange, and uh like some
people buy small amounts ofthese kind of coins to their
personal recreational use, let'ssay.
But when we're talking aboutyeah, but when we're talking

(48:56):
about like several, like like 20million stolen assets, if they
get there, it's very hard tolaunder them.

Leticia Caminero (49:06):
Oh, okay.

Igor Data (49:07):
Yeah.

Leticia Caminero (49:08):
So the the bigger the money, the the less
likely for them to use this uhprivacy coins.

Igor Data (49:13):
It depends.
Sometimes they're just crazy,but it's very random.
But most of the cases theydon't like to put a lot of this,
they can take some portion ofstolen assets and move to
privacy coins, but in most ofthe cases, they try to rush to
the exchanges and exchange thereto something liquid, not this

(49:37):
kind of stuff.
Okay, more liquid the better.
Yeah, so as I honestly believeprivacy coin will not be banned
in major economies because thethe harm is not that big, and
they are kind of funny, uh, theyare technologically very
advanced.
Okay, they're interesting, anduh there gives this a little bit

(50:00):
uh uh fresh air to some people,and they're kind of happy.
So it's you remember like inmatrix, you can have uh some fun
thinking that you escaped thematrix, and so yeah.

Speaker 3 (50:12):
When when you didn't, yeah, it's kind of stuck.
Interesting.
Well, I still believe that weare inside the matrix at in a
different kind of reality.
Try not to think about that.

Leticia Caminero (50:27):
And uh and there's so many but there I have
a lot of theories uh about thePalin universe, about all the
Mandela effects, all of thesethings.

Speaker 3 (50:34):
I think the old connection.
Yeah, sometimes it's very andit's scary, obviously.
Yeah, matrix uh stop.

Speaker 7 (50:41):
That's what you're doing.

Leticia Caminero (50:42):
And I personally have uh I have many
deja boos, so for me it's kindof like also a bit freaky.

Speaker 3 (50:48):
Yeah, it happens.

Leticia Caminero (50:50):
So yeah, uh we're in the matrix on some kind
of matrix, maybe not the onethat we are batteries, but in in
some other kind.
Okay, scary things.

Igor Data (51:00):
You'll be um you will be able to freeze a wallet
globally with one jurisdictionalorder until we end up having
like two, three, only two, threecountries on earth, and all of
them are tyrannies or empires,we won't be able to do that,

(51:22):
luckily.
Okay, so it's a good thing.
Um unfortunately it's a badthing for a victim, but in fact,
it's like it's really goodthing that we cannot just freeze
something that we want on onthe blockchain.
This is the idea, right?
But um in a kind ofgovernment-baked blockchains

(51:43):
later, we might have these kindof situations.
And for example, USDT uh theythey allow to freeze the assets.
Uh it's kind of centralizedcoin decentralized in some way,
but it's one-to-one to USD.

(52:04):
And they like to keep it clean,so they they will freeze the
assets if you ask.
Okay, so they would they willthey will try to be uh on the
safe side, but it's very rarelywhen hackers like spend a lot of
time there.

Leticia Caminero (52:21):
Okay, because they know that there's a higher
risk there.

Igor Data (52:24):
Uh they just don't like um stable coins, let's say.

Leticia Caminero (52:28):
Okay.
Anyway.
So futuristic.

Igor Data (52:32):
It's kind of I hope not.

Speaker 3 (52:34):
Let's say it's still possible.

Igor Data (52:40):
We're we're very close to that currently, but uh
yeah, I hope not.

Leticia Caminero (52:44):
Oh well, it's uh we're either gonna end up
like uh big brother or we'regonna end up in some other kind
of uh uh kind of sci-fi novel.

Igor Data (52:54):
We'll see about that.
AEI may change a lot of thingsin ways that we don't even
understand how it may happen.
Like first internet, no onewould say we will have we
wouldn't have Facebook orTikTok.

Leticia Caminero (53:08):
It's true.
It evolved in a way that no onewould have predicted.
Yeah.
Open source code will includebuilt-in ethical flags.

Igor Data (53:18):
It it's kind of futuristic, I think.

Leticia Caminero (53:21):
Okay.
Okay.

Igor Data (53:22):
But it's still possible.
But the thing is there are alot of people that don't have
any ethical like flags toinclude.
And on the other hand, manypeople might share different
ethical views and they mightinclude different things.
But usually on the blockchain,on on in my area on the

(53:44):
blockchain, they kind of veryopen on what you want to do with
your own money.
So not so much flags here.

Leticia Caminero (53:54):
Okay, okay.
Different styles.

Igor Data (53:56):
Yeah.

Leticia Caminero (53:57):
Smart contracts will include a
morality clause in the nearfuture.

Igor Data (54:03):
It's kind of futuristic.
It's kind of the same.
So the the smart contracts,they don't pop up out of blue,
the people create them, andpeople It's not magic.
It's not magic, yeah.
People decide what is good,what is bad, and in they might
include something there or not,but it's hard to verify if this

(54:25):
morality clause is followed.
So if you can put somethinginto the code, then yeah,
probably.

Leticia Caminero (54:36):
Okay, okay.
And finally, black marketplatforms will advertise AI
detention avoidance tools.

Igor Data (54:46):
Yeah, detection, AI detection avoidance avoidance
tools, there they're alreadythere.
Okay.
And not only the yeah, not onlyAI, like uh any kind of tools
you can buy there.
And uh there are some AI modelsthat has no limits on what they
could discuss, what they canthey do, hacking models or other

(55:10):
stuff.
It's there.
The question is, they're kindof too young to be really uh
dangerous now.
But there was a period of umtime in cybersecurity when the
term script kiddy was coined.
It was time when hacking waskind of automated on the script

(55:34):
level, and there was a lot of uhyoung people who were trying
these scripts to hack differentstuff, and they were not very uh
experienced, but it was erawhen uh prevention and
protection was not very um howto say sophisticated.

(55:56):
So this script uh Kiddies wasvery successful hacking
everything around, and uh it wasa transition period between um
complicated smart systems thatcan prevent hacking.
And I believe so that AI willgive us the possibility to hack

(56:17):
a lot of things in ways that wedidn't expect until we develop
better tools, probably alsobased on AI, to fight these
kinds of attacks.
Oh that will be a wave of thiskind of stuff maybe in the next
10 years that we will face thatlike a lot.

Leticia Caminero (56:36):
Yeah, because well it the technology that
evolves in both ways.
Evolves for for the good, forchasing criminals, but also
evolves for making criminalactivities.

Igor Data (56:46):
Yeah, and to to fight criminal activities, the
technology kind of evolves alittle bit um later.
Okay, and usually people whouse the systems they upgrade
their systems after somethinghappens.
Uh-huh.
So we're gonna have this uhsituation uh when it is normal

(57:09):
to read about a new hack everyday for a couple of years.

Leticia Caminero (57:15):
Well, we we have a saying in my home
country, Dominican Republic,that it's it's translated to uh
people put um a lock afterthey've been robbed.
Yeah.
So it's it's uh we say it a lotlike that because it's it's
it's human nature as well,because you'll you never think
it's gonna happen to you untilit does.

Speaker 9 (57:35):
Yeah.

Leticia Caminero (57:36):
Okay, so now the long view question.

Speaker 9 (57:42):
Okay.

Leticia Caminero (57:42):
If you had a backdoor key to every digital
system, what's one rule you'dlocked in permanently?

Igor Data (57:54):
Um if I had uh a backdoor key to every digital
system, you would have a newdark uh ruler indefinitely.

Speaker 3 (58:03):
So dear Frodo, keep the your teenager is emerging.
Keep the too much power.

Igor Data (58:13):
In fact, as I honestly see, uh humans are the
most uh weak link in the digitalsystem, and usually are the
main vector of attack is thehuman itself.
So tricking the human intodoing something because we
cannot limit humans to act asthey will.

(58:34):
Yeah, this is the purpose.
That would really help in somecases.
If you put the limit onyourself, let's say you cannot
transfer money uh faster than inthree days, you have to start
the transaction, then you needto confirm the next day.
That might help, but it limitsyou um your ability.
Yeah, limits a lot.

(58:56):
So we don't like that.
So we keep ourselves the powerto act quickly and have a huge
impact on what we own.
It also makes possible thatwhen the hackers get their hands
on your keys, they may actquickly and like stall your

(59:16):
assets.
So if I could fix the part ofthe system I would fix users,
because I see that hackers andperpetrators in cybersecurity
world, their advantage isusually level of technical

(59:36):
literacy and the gap betweennormal people and their level of
technical literacy is the mainway how they like it's the space
where they operate.

Leticia Caminero (59:47):
So that they take advantage because they know
better and they know more,yeah, and and the human is
limited.

Igor Data (59:54):
So reducing this gap and putting more effort into
learning.
More about uh important, let'ssay, most scary parts of this
technical stuff.
This is this is important forall of us.
We should raise the level oftechnical literacy as much as we

(01:00:14):
can.

Leticia Caminero (01:00:15):
So it will be a backdoor key to the to the
mindset of the users.

Igor Data (01:00:20):
Yeah, but the guy who has access to backdoor access
to the minds of billions ofpeople, uh, it's kind of uh
different story.

Leticia Caminero (01:00:30):
Well, if they if they map our uh conscience
into a machine, we'll be able todo that.

Igor Data (01:00:37):
At some point in time we will, definitely.
I truly, I honestly believethat the mind is fully described
by neural connections.
Yeah.
So if we map them, there was uhthis uh fruit fly brain already
scanned and uh mapped andstarted in virtual reality, and
they made it to sniff something,and it was turning to this

(01:01:01):
point to do this to the sameside.
So it in fact it lived withoutunderstanding what is happening,
it lived for uh for a second inspace.
But yeah, it's very smallbrain, but yeah, but it's a
spark advances uh exponentially,so yeah.
Okay.
100 years I thought, uh, didyou see this TV series upload?

Leticia Caminero (01:01:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I love for that kind of thing.
I love Black Mirror, I lovethis kind of like uh interesting
um alternative futures.
But I do believe it can happen.
It it can it can because it istrue that uh um the essence of
the human is not this physicaluh uh body that we have.

(01:01:46):
It's it's it's it's somethingthat it can be captured in other
vessels and why knowingtechnology.

Igor Data (01:01:52):
As I see it, we are less humans alive.
Like you know, like ancientRomans, they didn't know there
were ancient Romans.
Exactly, that's true.
That's true.
They were uh enjoying theprogress and the power and
everything.
And I want to say that themoment we already have genetical
therapy allowed in Europe, andit means we will change our

(01:02:16):
genes at some point in time sofast that you when you reach the
reproductive age, your genesare kind of obsolete.
And 30 years of your life,there might be so huge progress
in genes development that youmight want to assemble your
child just by cut catalog, likelike in in the store.

(01:02:40):
You buy the best genes and theywill be cheap because they will
be must-produced, everythingmust be produced is folks to be
to be affordable.

Speaker 3 (01:02:48):
So no disease, no aging.

Igor Data (01:02:55):
We will merge with the machine, I believe.

Speaker 3 (01:02:57):
Okay, we're gonna to some degree.

Igor Data (01:02:58):
It will be slowly like 200-300 years, but uh not
not not fast.
But we will get there.

Leticia Caminero (01:03:05):
But steady, but steady.
Maybe maybe our kids, which isgonna be we're gonna we will be
this the we'll see the the firstpart of it, our kids, maybe.
Okay, interesting.
Um, I I really um I'm reallypositive about the future
always, uh, but with uh kind ofuh uh a bit of a sinister kind

(01:03:28):
of thought also, because humanswe are capable of amazing
things, we are capable ofbeautiful things, but also awful
and atrocious things.

Speaker 3 (01:03:38):
So the future, I think, and it's just in a tie
rope and at any moment it'sgonna flip.

Speaker 9 (01:03:44):
So true.

Leticia Caminero (01:03:46):
Thank you, Igor, um, for demonstrating that
in constant in a constantlychanging battle between
criminals and coders, it is notjust about keeping up, it's
about coding smarter, it's aboutrecognizing patterns where
others see chaos and creatingsystems that remain robust under
pressure because it is this newfrontier, the crime scene,

(01:04:11):
isn't a back alley, is ablockchain.
The getaway car is adisappearing wallet, and the
investigator, often awell-trained algorithm armed
with intent, not instinct.
Uh at the heart of it all,though, it is a simple truth,
trust isn't built withbuzzwords, it is built with

(01:04:31):
architecture, clean, auditable,ethical architecture.
So here's to the digitaldetective like you, the
architect of accountability, andthe kind um of code that
catches more than just box.

Speaker 9 (01:04:46):
Yeah.

Leticia Caminero (01:04:48):
Thank you so much.
It was a lovely conversation.
Uh scary as well.

Speaker 3 (01:04:53):
A little bit.
Just as the future, beautifuland scary.

Igor Data (01:04:58):
Thank you, Letitia.
Thank you for having me in uhin Tai Hiblia podcast.
And um I'm really amazed thatuh it's a number one uh podcast
uh in uh intellectual rights uhin the podcast.
Amazing.

Leticia Caminero (01:05:12):
Oh thank you, thank you.
Through a lot of work now, butit's it's um it's a beautiful
project that I started out of.
I I I love IP, so it's it'ssomething that I I fell in love
with when I was studying in lawschool um a few years ago.
And after that, I just becamein love with IP because it's the
it's a part of the law thatreally talks about creation,

(01:05:35):
innovation, talks about theamazing things that humans can
do, because I was neverattracted to the other kind of
more serious part of the law,like land law, tax law, all of
these kind of things.

Speaker 3 (01:05:48):
I I admire people who do that.
You need that, but it's not me.
And I come from a family ofaccountants, so all my family is
there, CPA.

Leticia Caminero (01:05:57):
So for me, it's like no, I I run away from
numbers, from from too muchformality.
So I found in IP like this acreative outlet.
Uh, but also I found the lawbecause I'm very passionate
about the law, the norms, allthat.
Um I'm always very curious.
So yeah, that's uh and it hastaken me to this podcast.
This is my passion project, mymy third baby.

Igor Data (01:06:18):
Yeah, for all your passion, it gives amazing
results, right?

Leticia Caminero (01:06:23):
Yeah, it's true.
It's true.
I think for you it's the same.

unknown (01:06:25):
Thank you.

Speaker (01:06:26):
Yeah, it was so nice to meet you.
Nice to meet you too.
Thank you for listening toIntangibilia, the podcast of
Intangible Law.
Plain talk about intellectualproperty.
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(01:06:46):
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