November 10, 2025 • 30 mins
Ideas don’t turn into impact on excitement alone. They need structure, ownership, and trust. We sit down with Mark, an IP advisor and blockchain compliance expert, to unpack how intangible assets—patents, trademarks, copyrights, code, data, and even carbon credits—quietly drive growth while shaping risk across industries.
We dig into the hidden engine of value that most founders overlook: dormant IP. Mark walks us through practical IP audits that surface what you already own, from unique processes and datasets to brand equity you can license or franchise. He explains why mindset comes first, then market size and timing, and how that sequence determines whether you defend aggressively, collaborate through licensing, or wait for the right moment. On the Web3 front, we challenge the myth that crypto is lawless. Clear names, protected code, and compliant launches build the trust that filters copycats, supports valuation, and attracts serious capital.
Sustainability threads through the conversation as we explore carbon markets and climate finance. Carbon may be intangible, but the credits and systems around it require rigorous legal frameworks. Mark shares how IP strategy supports climate tech adoption —from discovery to cross-border licensing—scaling faster than opening new offices. We also dive into brand stewardship beyond the certificate: monitoring registries, enforcing quickly, and using licensing to expand with lower risk. Along the way, we look ahead to more innovative tools—AI assessing brand strength, interoperable IP revenue tracking, and policy incentives for climate-aligned inventions.
If you’re building at the edge of tech or climate, this is your playbook for turning the invisible into compounding advantage. Hear how to protect before you launch, design risk into your roadmap, and monetize the assets you already have. Subscribe, share with a founder who needs this, and leave a review with the one IP question you want answered next.
Check out "Protection for the Inventive Mind" – available now on Amazon in print and Kindle formats.
The views and opinions expressed (by the host and guest(s)) in this podcast are strictly their own and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the entities with which they may be affiliated. This podcast should in no way be construed as promoting or criticizing any particular government policy, institutional position, private interest or commercial entity. Any content provided is for informational and educational purposes only.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
To grasp the power of intangible assets, you need
to have a level of vision.
You need to be sensible toprojection so that you can
understand the mechanics and seehow we can make it happen.
SPEAKER_05 (00:27):
Hello and welcome to Intangibilia.
Today we welcome a legalstrategist who speaks the
language of both innovation andimpact.
Mark is an IP advisor,blockchain compliance expert,
carbon project consultant, andfounder of IP Stance.
With over 15 years ofinternational experience, he
(00:47):
helps startups and entrepreneurstransform ideas into assets and
risk into opportunity.
From carbon markets tocode-based economies, Mark
brings a unique perspective onhow to protect innovation
without slowing it down.
In this conversation, we diveinto IP sustainability, Web3
compliance, and why the smartestideas need the strongest
(01:11):
foundations.
So we're gonna talk about firstuh yourself.
Tell us about yourself and howyou landed here in Geneva.
SPEAKER_03 (01:21):
Well, uh like um basically I'm um Geneva
homegrown.
Um I grew up in Geneva and uhdid all my uh my life here, uh
did all my scholar studies hereand until university, and then I
went to the UK to higherstudies, spent a few years in uh
(01:42):
in England, London, beforecoming back to Geneva, where I
started my uh professional uhcareer.
SPEAKER_05 (01:50):
Okay.
So you you uh traveled around alittle bit, you grew up here,
and then you went abroad tostudy to spread your wings.
Yes.
And then you came back home.
SPEAKER_04 (02:00):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_05 (02:01):
Perfect.
So you work at the intersectionof intellectual property,
blockchain, and sustainability.
What does three what does thesethree fields have in common that
most people don't realize?
SPEAKER_03 (02:15):
I would say the three the three things cover
risk.
In every business, there arerisk involved, every transaction
has risk involved, and most ofthe time risk is not um well
appreciated until a bad eventoccurs.
That's when people realize oh weshould have known better.
(02:38):
But in fact, uh risk is anintangible, I would say, um
topic.
It's not something that uh iswell um understood, and the
conversions of subjects bring anintersection to this intangible
asset topic because IP dealswith risk and compliance is
(03:02):
about mitigating the risk.
And this is where these twotopics merge.
And when it comes to the climateand sustainability, we're also
dealing with risk, and most ofthe time uh climate finance is
related to the intangible assetfinance because the carbon is
intangible by essence, and thecarbon finance, carbon credits
(03:26):
are the financial instrumentsaround it, but it's the
monetization of this intangibleasset that is the carbon.
So this is where I bring thelink between those three, and
knowing also that there are theuh uh SDGs that have been put in
place.
(03:46):
Companies are taking thesetopics much more seriously now,
and this is where they need to Iwould say make a substantial
effort when it comes to theirintangible capital and the
monetization, monetization ofit.
SPEAKER_05 (04:03):
So all of them deals with intangible items or assets
or or or uh things as well.
So there's it's always in thecollective imaginary.
SPEAKER_03 (04:15):
Yes.
SPEAKER_05 (04:17):
Um your firm, IP Stance, helps clients turn
intangible capital into tangiblegrowth.
What's one way you help fundersunlock hidden value?
SPEAKER_03 (04:30):
It's uh interesting question.
Um, most of the time, the bestway to go into it is to deep
dive in the entrepreneurialbusiness and look at the essence
of what they've been achieving.
And from there, we'll be able toassess through an IP audit.
We'll be able to assess what areall these intangible assets that
(04:54):
are sleeping in this uh businessthat uh the entrepreneur has not
realized he can value andmonetize.
And most of the time, this iswhere the the real value of a
company really lies.
It's in these dormant assets.
And uh the idea is to bring themto life and generate uh
(05:17):
additional income stream foryour business and use those
assets to help, I would say,sustain the business strategy,
the overall business strategy,so that you get an incremental
advantage and can move faster.
SPEAKER_05 (05:32):
Because the value is already there, but they haven't
recognized it.
SPEAKER_03 (05:36):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_05 (05:36):
Okay, that's that's very interesting.
So it's it's not uh because thepush is always to be creative,
innovative, to to to launch in,but it's good to do a uh uh a
self-reflection or like uh it'sgood to like the audit.
Yes.
To realize, well, wait, maybeyou don't need to create
something because you alreadyhave.
SPEAKER_03 (05:55):
And do that introspection.
It's a very well uh veryinteresting exercise because
most of the time people don'trealize how far they've come and
how much they know, and howsomething that they take for
granted can be useful to many.
SPEAKER_04 (06:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (06:15):
So this is uh basically the the challenge is
to uh help them realize and cometo terms with this thing you
don't value is actuallyextremely valuable and to make
visible the invisible.
SPEAKER_05 (06:27):
Yes, yeah, yeah, that's great, that's remarkable.
Um, so you have advised uh earlystage ventures and
multinationals.
When it comes to protectinginnovation, what changes the
game?
Size, timing, or mindset?
SPEAKER_03 (06:43):
I would say it all starts with mindset because um
to grasp the the I would say thepower of intangible assets, you
you need to have a level of uhvision, you need to be sensible
to projection so that you canunderstand the mechanics and see
(07:05):
how we can make it happen.
The the second aspect will bethe size, because the the size
of the company, the size of themarket will determine how
aggressive or defensive you willbe with the exploitation of the
assets.
And obviously, the timing inrelation to the market is also
(07:25):
key because if you come tooearly, no matter how much
marketing you're gonna do, uh itmight not work.
If it's too early, it's tooearly.
SPEAKER_05 (07:33):
It's not the moment for for it.
SPEAKER_03 (07:35):
Yes.
SPEAKER_05 (07:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (07:36):
So yeah, I would I would say put them in that order
of importance.
SPEAKER_05 (07:40):
Yeah, it makes sense.
And and mindset also is thehardest part as well, because uh
there's things that you cannotreally put in people's minds.
Exactly.
And because they're not open toit or they're just not willing
to take the the chance.
SPEAKER_03 (07:54):
Exactly.
If they don't uh acknowledge thechallenge and they don't reckon
that you have to go out of yourcomfort zone to discover and
see, explore the opportunities,then it might not be the right
fit and we can't pass the thatlevel.
SPEAKER_05 (08:15):
Yeah, makes sense.
Um and you have worked withtraditional IP um spaces and
frontier technologies liketokenization and decentralized
uh um fiance, DeFi.
How would you um how do youadapt legal thinking to new
tech?
SPEAKER_03 (08:35):
Well, there was also uh I would say similar to
sustainability questions, thiscommon factor of intangibility.
And even when we talk abouttech, there is there are a lot
of uh creation going on.
Uh developers create and writecodes, and even though now AI
(08:59):
has come into play, but the theessence is that the the codes
are written, protected bycopyrights, and until you start
to market it and put it outthere, the trademark dimension
doesn't really kick in.
But I would say by uh commonpractice, because people
(09:20):
sometimes overlook IP laws, theystarted to launch many products
in relation to blockchain andespecially cryptocurrencies, and
sometimes with similar names,and there's been a lot of I
would say um not so goodprojects with uh confusingly
similar names.
SPEAKER_05 (09:38):
Oh no, and so they tarnish the reputation of
someone who's doing it right.
SPEAKER_03 (09:42):
Exactly.
And um IP, IP laws are actuallythe perfect instrument to kind
of uh uh stop the bad behavior.
Yeah, of course.
And it is uh also a space wherethere is a lot of um uh
sensibilization to to make, torealize that it's not because
(10:03):
it's open that it's uh lawless.
There are some laws that arealready existent and very
suitable for the subject.
And the legislator adapted alsoin many jurisdictions to
recognize some of these uh Iwould say instruments as
securities also and regulationshave come into play.
(10:25):
So now compliance regulationsalso come in.
So it's a very I would saycross-border topic.
SPEAKER_04 (10:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (10:32):
And um it has, I would say, many years to go
ahead.
SPEAKER_05 (10:36):
So you can you can have uh harmonization between
them because the new tech, ofcourse, it is going to be there,
it's just only gonna get biggerand bigger, but that doesn't
mean that IP is gonna have lessof a role.
Actually, it's the contrary.
SPEAKER_04 (10:51):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_05 (10:51):
It's gonna help to build trust with the public,
make sure as well that everyoneis identified as they should,
and if they're not, then youfollow the legal process.
SPEAKER_03 (11:01):
Yes, that's that's the best way to put it.
And uh it's a matter of how tosay uh spreading the knowledge
for people to realize even if uha team launches a cryptocurrency
tomorrow, knowing that they canprotect themselves from a
copycat is something that theywould be happy to know.
Yeah, of course.
So it's uh just a matter of uhuh responding to the the
(11:25):
prospect's need to bring him asolution that is actually
effective for his problem.
SPEAKER_05 (11:32):
Yeah, perfect.
And what role IP strategy playin supporting sustainable
innovation, specifically in uhclimate-conscious ventures?
SPEAKER_03 (11:44):
Okay, it can help in many ways.
I would say that the firstaspect is uh regarding funding.
When it comes to uh financingnow, there is a great uh
interest in green bonds andgreen finance in general.
And you'd say that uh an RDdepartment working on a new
(12:07):
solution would be uh smartlyadvised to look into, I would
say, uh climate-friendly aspectof their innovation because it
would be simpler to attractinvestors if they're raising
funds.
And also when it comes to themarket prospect of the
(12:27):
innovation, uh it having a greendimension opens doors to many
more markets and opportunities.
So it is definitely uh, I wouldsay a new layer to adapt in
their uh thinking process asthey develop their innovations,
because it is basically here tostay, and the the climate issues
(12:50):
are not going to disappear.
SPEAKER_05 (12:52):
So probably they're gonna get bigger.
SPEAKER_03 (12:55):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_05 (12:58):
So if um you're one of the few IP professionals who
also speaks language ofblockchain compliance, which is
something sometimes uh lawyerswere a bit uh technology
adverse.
What's one major misconceptionfounders have when launching
Web3 products?
SPEAKER_03 (13:21):
Yes.
Uh most of the time, oh, um it'sopen, it's open source, it's
free world, it's there is nolaw, it's lawless.
No man's land.
Exactly.
You do what you want.
So, yes, that's the first thingto actually uh put in context
(13:41):
that no, there are many lawsthat apply to it.
It's not because you disregardit that they don't exist.
SPEAKER_04 (13:47):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_03 (13:47):
So first they're there, they exist, and then uh
let's see how this applies toyou.
Um another aspect, like Imentioned earlier, is the IP law
relevance when it comes tolaunching a service or a product
on the blockchain.
Uh don't ignore IP becausethat's your best protection from
(14:09):
copycats.
Um another issue would be umthinking that, oh, but why
should I care about it becauseso many projects have been
successful without it?
Well, rethink because when itcomes to valuation, you having
uh IP in your innovation willdefinitely have a strong
(14:35):
influence on a higher valuationfor your service or technology
versus no IP.
So it's a great barrier to entryand uh accelerator to valuation
and business growth.
SPEAKER_05 (14:48):
Yeah.
And also comparison is never agood exercise because you don't
know exactly how the company ismanaged, how they man amounted
to that success, or if they'redealing with any issues that
they're not of public knowledgeas well.
SPEAKER_03 (15:01):
Yes.
SPEAKER_05 (15:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (15:03):
Negotiations per se, most of the time you don't know
the details and what was reallysaid and discussed.
SPEAKER_05 (15:09):
So you cannot assume that everyone is having a great
time and you're just the onlyone struggling.
So um you have worked with umcarbon project development.
How are IP licensing andvaluation shaping the future for
the green economy?
SPEAKER_03 (15:28):
It's um contributing with um initiatives such as the
WIPO Green, for example, to agreat platform for um tech
innovators to showcase theirinnovation and for people in
need of implementing someforward-thinking products and
solutions to find actually aplace dedicated for the the
(15:52):
cause.
And uh also when it comes to uhagain raising funds with climate
finance, it is definitely of uhgreat importance and I would say
um agility to choose solutionsthat have this green dimension
(16:14):
because it really has um greatimpact on the mid and long term
of the project.
So yes.
SPEAKER_05 (16:22):
Choose wisely beforehand.
SPEAKER_03 (16:24):
Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_05 (16:26):
Um you talk uh about fortifying brands.
What makes a brand legallystrong beyond the trademark
certificate that we all know?
SPEAKER_03 (16:36):
Yes, the trademark certificate is the first step.
And a lot of trademark ownersstop there when in fact it's the
beginning of the journey becausestraight from being issued this
certificate, the good idea is tomonitor the registries and see
if uh anyone is trying to copyor inspire strongly from you.
(16:58):
If they're creatively illegally,you know because uh letting a
copycat slide, the longer youwait to react, the harder it's
going to be for you.
SPEAKER_02 (17:08):
Of course.
SPEAKER_03 (17:09):
So that this is the first thing.
And also uh when it comes toowning a trademark, the good the
next good idea is to exploitthat trademark and trying to
license or build a business tofranchise it because you never
know.
It might cost less to expandthrough a franchise versus
(17:31):
developing yourself umcross-border business.
So it's uh it has some benefits,especially when it comes to
tech.
If you have a solution, onlinesolution, you you might want to
just expand and license toanother territory to
exploitation of your solution,and it might be easier for you
(17:52):
to go that way versus trying toopen an office and recruit the
and put all the money or or findthe money to put it.
SPEAKER_05 (17:59):
Exactly.
So you can do it becausepartnership licensing is is is a
great way to expand withminimizing the risk as well.
SPEAKER_03 (18:07):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_05 (18:07):
And it's a way of of uh um monetizing your your
brand.
But you have to have a strongbrand first.
So there is of course checked,but monitor, make sure that is
no one is stepping out of theirnotice that somebody is uh in
infringing on your rights,you've got to take action.
(18:29):
Of course.
So because when you don't takeaction in many jurisdictions,
you're you're penalized by it.
SPEAKER_03 (18:34):
Yes, and you are devaluating your own brand by
not taking action.
That means that this certificateis worthless.
So you don't care exactly.
So what message are you sendingout?
So you you have to uh enforceyour rights.
SPEAKER_05 (18:48):
Yeah, of course, you have to you have to be your
first defender.
Um if you could reimagine howrisk is handled in startups,
(19:09):
what would you change?
SPEAKER_03 (19:13):
Taking risk consideration at a very early
stage.
Most of the time, too often wehear, oh, we'll think about that
later.
And this is actually uh killersentence because this thinking
about it later, you might neverget to that later because you
(19:34):
didn't consider it.
SPEAKER_05 (19:35):
Because it's never the right time.
SPEAKER_03 (19:36):
You see, and the that that right time uh is not
gonna come and land on you, youhave to create that opportunity.
And by having uh the strongestcase is the best way to convince
any partner, investor, or anyparty to contribute for your
project go forward.
(19:58):
So weaknesses are notrecommended.
It's better to come prepared andinspire trust and confidence for
people to follow.
SPEAKER_05 (20:07):
Yeah, because if you're asking people to trust in
you, you have to be trustworthy.
Exactly.
Yeah, makes sense.
And now we go to the moreinformed part of the of the
episode.
I'll ask you to pick one.
SPEAKER_01 (20:29):
Okay.
SPEAKER_05 (20:30):
So you can make you can explain yourself if you
want, but you don't have to.
Okay, are you ready?
SPEAKER_01 (20:36):
Ready.
SPEAKER_05 (20:38):
Carbon neutral trademarks or sustainability
linked IP clauses.
SPEAKER_03 (20:43):
Carbon neutral trademarks.
SPEAKER_05 (20:45):
Okay, glower crypto regulation or tailor frameworks
per region.
Tailored frameworks per region,tokenization for funding or
tokenization for communityengagement.
SPEAKER_03 (21:02):
Tokenization for funding.
SPEAKER_05 (21:04):
Okay, legal foresight or legal fire drills.
Legal foresight, smart contractsor smarter negotiations, smarter
negotiations, defensive IP or umcollaborative licensing.
SPEAKER_03 (21:31):
Collaborative licensing.
SPEAKER_05 (21:33):
We create more together, ESG backed, um baked
into business models or reportedat the end.
SPEAKER_03 (21:50):
Reported at the end.
SPEAKER_05 (21:51):
Okay.
A world where every pitch deckincludes an IP plan or where due
diligence does the heavylifting.
SPEAKER_03 (22:01):
Due diligence does the heavy lifting.
unknown (22:03):
Okay.
SPEAKER_05 (22:05):
And finally, launch first and protect later, or IP
first, even in beta.
SPEAKER_03 (22:12):
IP first, even in beta.
SPEAKER_05 (22:15):
Protect before you launch.
And now you can take the here,the palette.
Um, and you have to choose trueor futurist.
Okay.
So um the statement I'm gonnagive you um is you you regard it
as either true, so somethingthat is happening right now is
about to happen, or uh futuristthat is sci-fi when the future
(22:39):
is never gonna happen.
SPEAKER_01 (22:40):
Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_05 (22:42):
IP risk scores will become a key metric for venture
funding.
Climate innovation patents willcome with fast track incentive
tied to the ESD goals.
(23:03):
AI tools will assess brandstrength based on trademark
activity and sentiment data.
Every startup accelerator willinclude IP audits in their
program.
Entrepreneurs will generatelegal documents with blockchain
(23:27):
verified ownership metadata.
Open source hardware will drivemore patent filings than
software in the next years.
(23:56):
True.
That's nice, it's a beautifulthought.
Smart IP wallets will auto-tracklicensing revenue across
jurisdictions.
Interesting.
(24:16):
Governments will offer IP taxcredits to climate aligned
inventions.
(24:38):
True.
Okay, so now to wrap up theepisode.
If the next wave of innovationis built on trust, what's one
principle you believe shouldguide how we design, govern, and
protect our most transformativeideas?
SPEAKER_03 (25:09):
Okay.
SPEAKER_05 (25:10):
Don't worry, take your time.
It's a big question.
SPEAKER_03 (25:16):
How to take one on this?
Um we have to to come out of thecomfort zone at times.
Uh I would say that I'm quitecomfortable with the tools we
have at the at the moment.
Um I don't know if there is uhmaybe some harmonization with uh
(25:41):
IP financing issues because ituh requires I would say uh
better uh implementation.
Too few countries that haveproper uh framework on these
questions and that that probablyhinders on the capacity of some
(26:01):
countries to adopt the IPmindset and uh respect for IP.
Uh because it comes along withuh I would say financial
incentives as well.
So without this, it's uh it'shard to get some parties on
(26:23):
board.
Uh yeah, it's um it's a hardquestion.
SPEAKER_05 (26:30):
So um what do you think is the secret ingredients
in order for people to keeptrusting uh the system, to keep
try to build trust with AI,blockchain, all this Web3 uh
tech?
Everything that is uh new isalways scary, especially when
you don't understand it fully.
So, what would you think it willbe the secret ingredient?
(26:52):
So it will be full transparencyin the process that is being
made, or transparency in certainareas that people will be more
inclined to, or just uh theyshould just blindly trust uh
whatever is handed to them.
SPEAKER_03 (27:08):
It's hard to blindly trust, yeah.
Uh as is uh history showedbefore.
SPEAKER_05 (27:14):
Yeah, of course.
History has taught us to becareful.
SPEAKER_03 (27:18):
But uh you you don't want to there's a thin line
between putting too much burdenon creators and then creations
unhappen.
SPEAKER_04 (27:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (27:27):
And um there needs to be a free space so that there
can be the creativity, the thewhole experience can happen, and
this is when uh novelty comescomes into play.
Um but at the same time uh weneed some safeguards to to to
tell us uh basically the the therisk with each uh uh solution
(27:52):
and uh new innovation that weare adopting.
Um probably some reviews on newinnovation tools and so on.
Maybe this is some uh angle toto look at.
(28:12):
But it's really hard to to haveuh I would say uh marked uh
opinion on this.
Yeah.
It's uh it's very tricky.
SPEAKER_05 (28:23):
It's it's uh uh it's a tricky, tricky territory.
Well, thank you so much, Mark,and uh thank you for coming and
talking uh about uh the IP thatis uh both of our passion and
also beyond that is that allthis new technology that is a
wave uh crashing everything thatwe know, especially the work
(28:47):
that we do and how we how wecome about it.
And for sure, AI has been thebiggest one in this last uh two,
three years.
It became from something thatpeople talk about into we have
to we have access to it everyday now.
Or we are more conscious that wehave access to it every day.
Yes.
Uh so it's it's it's going to bean interesting future, and I
(29:10):
hope we're gonna be on the rightside of the future.
Um and thank you for remindingus that innovation is not just
about speed or hype, it's aboutdurability, structure, and
intention.
In a world of fast pivots of anold ideas, your work shows that
the strongest foundations areoften invisible, but they shape
(29:33):
everything, from IP to impact,it's not just what we build, but
how well we're protected.
Because innovation withoutstructure is just luck.
And we are here to build withpurpose.
SPEAKER_03 (29:46):
Yes, indeed.
SPEAKER_05 (29:47):
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_03 (29:48):
Thank you, Letizia.
SPEAKER_00 (29:51):
Thank you for listening to Intangibia, the
podcast of Intangible Law.
Plane talk about intellectualproperty.
Did you like what we talked to?
Today, please share with yournetwork.
Do you want to learn more aboutintellectual property?
Subscribe now on your favoritepodcast player.
Follow us on Instagram,Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter.
(30:12):
Visit our websitewww.intangiblia.com.
Copyright Leticia Caminero 2020.
All rights reserved.
This podcast is provided forinformation purposes only.
To grasp the power of intangible assets, you need
to have a level of vision.
You need to be sensible toprojection so that you can
understand the mechanics and seehow we can make it happen.
SPEAKER_05 (00:27):
Hello and welcome to Intangibilia.
Today we welcome a legalstrategist who speaks the
language of both innovation andimpact.
Mark is an IP advisor,blockchain compliance expert,
carbon project consultant, andfounder of IP Stance.
With over 15 years ofinternational experience, he
(00:47):
helps startups and entrepreneurstransform ideas into assets and
risk into opportunity.
From carbon markets tocode-based economies, Mark
brings a unique perspective onhow to protect innovation
without slowing it down.
In this conversation, we diveinto IP sustainability, Web3
compliance, and why the smartestideas need the strongest
(01:11):
foundations.
So we're gonna talk about firstuh yourself.
Tell us about yourself and howyou landed here in Geneva.
SPEAKER_03 (01:21):
Well, uh like um basically I'm um Geneva
homegrown.
Um I grew up in Geneva and uhdid all my uh my life here, uh
did all my scholar studies hereand until university, and then I
went to the UK to higherstudies, spent a few years in uh
(01:42):
in England, London, beforecoming back to Geneva, where I
started my uh professional uhcareer.
SPEAKER_05 (01:50):
Okay.
So you you uh traveled around alittle bit, you grew up here,
and then you went abroad tostudy to spread your wings.
Yes.
And then you came back home.
SPEAKER_04 (02:00):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_05 (02:01):
Perfect.
So you work at the intersectionof intellectual property,
blockchain, and sustainability.
What does three what does thesethree fields have in common that
most people don't realize?
SPEAKER_03 (02:15):
I would say the three the three things cover
risk.
In every business, there arerisk involved, every transaction
has risk involved, and most ofthe time risk is not um well
appreciated until a bad eventoccurs.
That's when people realize oh weshould have known better.
(02:38):
But in fact, uh risk is anintangible, I would say, um
topic.
It's not something that uh iswell um understood, and the
conversions of subjects bring anintersection to this intangible
asset topic because IP dealswith risk and compliance is
(03:02):
about mitigating the risk.
And this is where these twotopics merge.
And when it comes to the climateand sustainability, we're also
dealing with risk, and most ofthe time uh climate finance is
related to the intangible assetfinance because the carbon is
intangible by essence, and thecarbon finance, carbon credits
(03:26):
are the financial instrumentsaround it, but it's the
monetization of this intangibleasset that is the carbon.
So this is where I bring thelink between those three, and
knowing also that there are theuh uh SDGs that have been put in
place.
(03:46):
Companies are taking thesetopics much more seriously now,
and this is where they need to Iwould say make a substantial
effort when it comes to theirintangible capital and the
monetization, monetization ofit.
SPEAKER_05 (04:03):
So all of them deals with intangible items or assets
or or or uh things as well.
So there's it's always in thecollective imaginary.
SPEAKER_03 (04:15):
Yes.
SPEAKER_05 (04:17):
Um your firm, IP Stance, helps clients turn
intangible capital into tangiblegrowth.
What's one way you help fundersunlock hidden value?
SPEAKER_03 (04:30):
It's uh interesting question.
Um, most of the time, the bestway to go into it is to deep
dive in the entrepreneurialbusiness and look at the essence
of what they've been achieving.
And from there, we'll be able toassess through an IP audit.
We'll be able to assess what areall these intangible assets that
(04:54):
are sleeping in this uh businessthat uh the entrepreneur has not
realized he can value andmonetize.
And most of the time, this iswhere the the real value of a
company really lies.
It's in these dormant assets.
And uh the idea is to bring themto life and generate uh
(05:17):
additional income stream foryour business and use those
assets to help, I would say,sustain the business strategy,
the overall business strategy,so that you get an incremental
advantage and can move faster.
SPEAKER_05 (05:32):
Because the value is already there, but they haven't
recognized it.
SPEAKER_03 (05:36):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_05 (05:36):
Okay, that's that's very interesting.
So it's it's not uh because thepush is always to be creative,
innovative, to to to launch in,but it's good to do a uh uh a
self-reflection or like uh it'sgood to like the audit.
Yes.
To realize, well, wait, maybeyou don't need to create
something because you alreadyhave.
SPEAKER_03 (05:55):
And do that introspection.
It's a very well uh veryinteresting exercise because
most of the time people don'trealize how far they've come and
how much they know, and howsomething that they take for
granted can be useful to many.
SPEAKER_04 (06:14):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (06:15):
So this is uh basically the the challenge is
to uh help them realize and cometo terms with this thing you
don't value is actuallyextremely valuable and to make
visible the invisible.
SPEAKER_05 (06:27):
Yes, yeah, yeah, that's great, that's remarkable.
Um, so you have advised uh earlystage ventures and
multinationals.
When it comes to protectinginnovation, what changes the
game?
Size, timing, or mindset?
SPEAKER_03 (06:43):
I would say it all starts with mindset because um
to grasp the the I would say thepower of intangible assets, you
you need to have a level of uhvision, you need to be sensible
to projection so that you canunderstand the mechanics and see
(07:05):
how we can make it happen.
The the second aspect will bethe size, because the the size
of the company, the size of themarket will determine how
aggressive or defensive you willbe with the exploitation of the
assets.
And obviously, the timing inrelation to the market is also
(07:25):
key because if you come tooearly, no matter how much
marketing you're gonna do, uh itmight not work.
If it's too early, it's tooearly.
SPEAKER_05 (07:33):
It's not the moment for for it.
SPEAKER_03 (07:35):
Yes.
SPEAKER_05 (07:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (07:36):
So yeah, I would I would say put them in that order
of importance.
SPEAKER_05 (07:40):
Yeah, it makes sense.
And and mindset also is thehardest part as well, because uh
there's things that you cannotreally put in people's minds.
Exactly.
And because they're not open toit or they're just not willing
to take the the chance.
SPEAKER_03 (07:54):
Exactly.
If they don't uh acknowledge thechallenge and they don't reckon
that you have to go out of yourcomfort zone to discover and
see, explore the opportunities,then it might not be the right
fit and we can't pass the thatlevel.
SPEAKER_05 (08:15):
Yeah, makes sense.
Um and you have worked withtraditional IP um spaces and
frontier technologies liketokenization and decentralized
uh um fiance, DeFi.
How would you um how do youadapt legal thinking to new
tech?
SPEAKER_03 (08:35):
Well, there was also uh I would say similar to
sustainability questions, thiscommon factor of intangibility.
And even when we talk abouttech, there is there are a lot
of uh creation going on.
Uh developers create and writecodes, and even though now AI
(08:59):
has come into play, but the theessence is that the the codes
are written, protected bycopyrights, and until you start
to market it and put it outthere, the trademark dimension
doesn't really kick in.
But I would say by uh commonpractice, because people
(09:20):
sometimes overlook IP laws, theystarted to launch many products
in relation to blockchain andespecially cryptocurrencies, and
sometimes with similar names,and there's been a lot of I
would say um not so goodprojects with uh confusingly
similar names.
SPEAKER_05 (09:38):
Oh no, and so they tarnish the reputation of
someone who's doing it right.
SPEAKER_03 (09:42):
Exactly.
And um IP, IP laws are actuallythe perfect instrument to kind
of uh uh stop the bad behavior.
Yeah, of course.
And it is uh also a space wherethere is a lot of um uh
sensibilization to to make, torealize that it's not because
(10:03):
it's open that it's uh lawless.
There are some laws that arealready existent and very
suitable for the subject.
And the legislator adapted alsoin many jurisdictions to
recognize some of these uh Iwould say instruments as
securities also and regulationshave come into play.
(10:25):
So now compliance regulationsalso come in.
So it's a very I would saycross-border topic.
SPEAKER_04 (10:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (10:32):
And um it has, I would say, many years to go
ahead.
SPEAKER_05 (10:36):
So you can you can have uh harmonization between
them because the new tech, ofcourse, it is going to be there,
it's just only gonna get biggerand bigger, but that doesn't
mean that IP is gonna have lessof a role.
Actually, it's the contrary.
SPEAKER_04 (10:51):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_05 (10:51):
It's gonna help to build trust with the public,
make sure as well that everyoneis identified as they should,
and if they're not, then youfollow the legal process.
SPEAKER_03 (11:01):
Yes, that's that's the best way to put it.
And uh it's a matter of how tosay uh spreading the knowledge
for people to realize even if uha team launches a cryptocurrency
tomorrow, knowing that they canprotect themselves from a
copycat is something that theywould be happy to know.
Yeah, of course.
So it's uh just a matter of uhuh responding to the the
(11:25):
prospect's need to bring him asolution that is actually
effective for his problem.
SPEAKER_05 (11:32):
Yeah, perfect.
And what role IP strategy playin supporting sustainable
innovation, specifically in uhclimate-conscious ventures?
SPEAKER_03 (11:44):
Okay, it can help in many ways.
I would say that the firstaspect is uh regarding funding.
When it comes to uh financingnow, there is a great uh
interest in green bonds andgreen finance in general.
And you'd say that uh an RDdepartment working on a new
(12:07):
solution would be uh smartlyadvised to look into, I would
say, uh climate-friendly aspectof their innovation because it
would be simpler to attractinvestors if they're raising
funds.
And also when it comes to themarket prospect of the
(12:27):
innovation, uh it having a greendimension opens doors to many
more markets and opportunities.
So it is definitely uh, I wouldsay a new layer to adapt in
their uh thinking process asthey develop their innovations,
because it is basically here tostay, and the the climate issues
(12:50):
are not going to disappear.
SPEAKER_05 (12:52):
So probably they're gonna get bigger.
SPEAKER_03 (12:55):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_05 (12:58):
So if um you're one of the few IP professionals who
also speaks language ofblockchain compliance, which is
something sometimes uh lawyerswere a bit uh technology
adverse.
What's one major misconceptionfounders have when launching
Web3 products?
SPEAKER_03 (13:21):
Yes.
Uh most of the time, oh, um it'sopen, it's open source, it's
free world, it's there is nolaw, it's lawless.
No man's land.
Exactly.
You do what you want.
So, yes, that's the first thingto actually uh put in context
(13:41):
that no, there are many lawsthat apply to it.
It's not because you disregardit that they don't exist.
SPEAKER_04 (13:47):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_03 (13:47):
So first they're there, they exist, and then uh
let's see how this applies toyou.
Um another aspect, like Imentioned earlier, is the IP law
relevance when it comes tolaunching a service or a product
on the blockchain.
Uh don't ignore IP becausethat's your best protection from
(14:09):
copycats.
Um another issue would be umthinking that, oh, but why
should I care about it becauseso many projects have been
successful without it?
Well, rethink because when itcomes to valuation, you having
uh IP in your innovation willdefinitely have a strong
(14:35):
influence on a higher valuationfor your service or technology
versus no IP.
So it's a great barrier to entryand uh accelerator to valuation
and business growth.
SPEAKER_05 (14:48):
Yeah.
And also comparison is never agood exercise because you don't
know exactly how the company ismanaged, how they man amounted
to that success, or if they'redealing with any issues that
they're not of public knowledgeas well.
SPEAKER_03 (15:01):
Yes.
SPEAKER_05 (15:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (15:03):
Negotiations per se, most of the time you don't know
the details and what was reallysaid and discussed.
SPEAKER_05 (15:09):
So you cannot assume that everyone is having a great
time and you're just the onlyone struggling.
So um you have worked with umcarbon project development.
How are IP licensing andvaluation shaping the future for
the green economy?
SPEAKER_03 (15:28):
It's um contributing with um initiatives such as the
WIPO Green, for example, to agreat platform for um tech
innovators to showcase theirinnovation and for people in
need of implementing someforward-thinking products and
solutions to find actually aplace dedicated for the the
(15:52):
cause.
And uh also when it comes to uhagain raising funds with climate
finance, it is definitely of uhgreat importance and I would say
um agility to choose solutionsthat have this green dimension
(16:14):
because it really has um greatimpact on the mid and long term
of the project.
So yes.
SPEAKER_05 (16:22):
Choose wisely beforehand.
SPEAKER_03 (16:24):
Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_05 (16:26):
Um you talk uh about fortifying brands.
What makes a brand legallystrong beyond the trademark
certificate that we all know?
SPEAKER_03 (16:36):
Yes, the trademark certificate is the first step.
And a lot of trademark ownersstop there when in fact it's the
beginning of the journey becausestraight from being issued this
certificate, the good idea is tomonitor the registries and see
if uh anyone is trying to copyor inspire strongly from you.
(16:58):
If they're creatively illegally,you know because uh letting a
copycat slide, the longer youwait to react, the harder it's
going to be for you.
SPEAKER_02 (17:08):
Of course.
SPEAKER_03 (17:09):
So that this is the first thing.
And also uh when it comes toowning a trademark, the good the
next good idea is to exploitthat trademark and trying to
license or build a business tofranchise it because you never
know.
It might cost less to expandthrough a franchise versus
(17:31):
developing yourself umcross-border business.
So it's uh it has some benefits,especially when it comes to
tech.
If you have a solution, onlinesolution, you you might want to
just expand and license toanother territory to
exploitation of your solution,and it might be easier for you
(17:52):
to go that way versus trying toopen an office and recruit the
and put all the money or or findthe money to put it.
SPEAKER_05 (17:59):
Exactly.
So you can do it becausepartnership licensing is is is a
great way to expand withminimizing the risk as well.
SPEAKER_03 (18:07):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_05 (18:07):
And it's a way of of uh um monetizing your your
brand.
But you have to have a strongbrand first.
So there is of course checked,but monitor, make sure that is
no one is stepping out of theirnotice that somebody is uh in
infringing on your rights,you've got to take action.
(18:29):
Of course.
So because when you don't takeaction in many jurisdictions,
you're you're penalized by it.
SPEAKER_03 (18:34):
Yes, and you are devaluating your own brand by
not taking action.
That means that this certificateis worthless.
So you don't care exactly.
So what message are you sendingout?
So you you have to uh enforceyour rights.
SPEAKER_05 (18:48):
Yeah, of course, you have to you have to be your
first defender.
Um if you could reimagine howrisk is handled in startups,
(19:09):
what would you change?
SPEAKER_03 (19:13):
Taking risk consideration at a very early
stage.
Most of the time, too often wehear, oh, we'll think about that
later.
And this is actually uh killersentence because this thinking
about it later, you might neverget to that later because you
(19:34):
didn't consider it.
SPEAKER_05 (19:35):
Because it's never the right time.
SPEAKER_03 (19:36):
You see, and the that that right time uh is not
gonna come and land on you, youhave to create that opportunity.
And by having uh the strongestcase is the best way to convince
any partner, investor, or anyparty to contribute for your
project go forward.
(19:58):
So weaknesses are notrecommended.
It's better to come prepared andinspire trust and confidence for
people to follow.
SPEAKER_05 (20:07):
Yeah, because if you're asking people to trust in
you, you have to be trustworthy.
Exactly.
Yeah, makes sense.
And now we go to the moreinformed part of the of the
episode.
I'll ask you to pick one.
SPEAKER_01 (20:29):
Okay.
SPEAKER_05 (20:30):
So you can make you can explain yourself if you
want, but you don't have to.
Okay, are you ready?
SPEAKER_01 (20:36):
Ready.
SPEAKER_05 (20:38):
Carbon neutral trademarks or sustainability
linked IP clauses.
SPEAKER_03 (20:43):
Carbon neutral trademarks.
SPEAKER_05 (20:45):
Okay, glower crypto regulation or tailor frameworks
per region.
Tailored frameworks per region,tokenization for funding or
tokenization for communityengagement.
SPEAKER_03 (21:02):
Tokenization for funding.
SPEAKER_05 (21:04):
Okay, legal foresight or legal fire drills.
Legal foresight, smart contractsor smarter negotiations, smarter
negotiations, defensive IP or umcollaborative licensing.
SPEAKER_03 (21:31):
Collaborative licensing.
SPEAKER_05 (21:33):
We create more together, ESG backed, um baked
into business models or reportedat the end.
SPEAKER_03 (21:50):
Reported at the end.
SPEAKER_05 (21:51):
Okay.
A world where every pitch deckincludes an IP plan or where due
diligence does the heavylifting.
SPEAKER_03 (22:01):
Due diligence does the heavy lifting.
unknown (22:03):
Okay.
SPEAKER_05 (22:05):
And finally, launch first and protect later, or IP
first, even in beta.
SPEAKER_03 (22:12):
IP first, even in beta.
SPEAKER_05 (22:15):
Protect before you launch.
And now you can take the here,the palette.
Um, and you have to choose trueor futurist.
Okay.
So um the statement I'm gonnagive you um is you you regard it
as either true, so somethingthat is happening right now is
about to happen, or uh futuristthat is sci-fi when the future
(22:39):
is never gonna happen.
SPEAKER_01 (22:40):
Okay, okay.
SPEAKER_05 (22:42):
IP risk scores will become a key metric for venture
funding.
Climate innovation patents willcome with fast track incentive
tied to the ESD goals.
(23:03):
AI tools will assess brandstrength based on trademark
activity and sentiment data.
Every startup accelerator willinclude IP audits in their
program.
Entrepreneurs will generatelegal documents with blockchain
(23:27):
verified ownership metadata.
Open source hardware will drivemore patent filings than
software in the next years.
(23:56):
True.
That's nice, it's a beautifulthought.
Smart IP wallets will auto-tracklicensing revenue across
jurisdictions.
Interesting.
(24:16):
Governments will offer IP taxcredits to climate aligned
inventions.
(24:38):
True.
Okay, so now to wrap up theepisode.
If the next wave of innovationis built on trust, what's one
principle you believe shouldguide how we design, govern, and
protect our most transformativeideas?
SPEAKER_03 (25:09):
Okay.
SPEAKER_05 (25:10):
Don't worry, take your time.
It's a big question.
SPEAKER_03 (25:16):
How to take one on this?
Um we have to to come out of thecomfort zone at times.
Uh I would say that I'm quitecomfortable with the tools we
have at the at the moment.
Um I don't know if there is uhmaybe some harmonization with uh
(25:41):
IP financing issues because ituh requires I would say uh
better uh implementation.
Too few countries that haveproper uh framework on these
questions and that that probablyhinders on the capacity of some
(26:01):
countries to adopt the IPmindset and uh respect for IP.
Uh because it comes along withuh I would say financial
incentives as well.
So without this, it's uh it'shard to get some parties on
(26:23):
board.
Uh yeah, it's um it's a hardquestion.
SPEAKER_05 (26:30):
So um what do you think is the secret ingredients
in order for people to keeptrusting uh the system, to keep
try to build trust with AI,blockchain, all this Web3 uh
tech?
Everything that is uh new isalways scary, especially when
you don't understand it fully.
So, what would you think it willbe the secret ingredient?
(26:52):
So it will be full transparencyin the process that is being
made, or transparency in certainareas that people will be more
inclined to, or just uh theyshould just blindly trust uh
whatever is handed to them.
SPEAKER_03 (27:08):
It's hard to blindly trust, yeah.
Uh as is uh history showedbefore.
SPEAKER_05 (27:14):
Yeah, of course.
History has taught us to becareful.
SPEAKER_03 (27:18):
But uh you you don't want to there's a thin line
between putting too much burdenon creators and then creations
unhappen.
SPEAKER_04 (27:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (27:27):
And um there needs to be a free space so that there
can be the creativity, the thewhole experience can happen, and
this is when uh novelty comescomes into play.
Um but at the same time uh weneed some safeguards to to to
tell us uh basically the the therisk with each uh uh solution
(27:52):
and uh new innovation that weare adopting.
Um probably some reviews on newinnovation tools and so on.
Maybe this is some uh angle toto look at.
(28:12):
But it's really hard to to haveuh I would say uh marked uh
opinion on this.
Yeah.
It's uh it's very tricky.
SPEAKER_05 (28:23):
It's it's uh uh it's a tricky, tricky territory.
Well, thank you so much, Mark,and uh thank you for coming and
talking uh about uh the IP thatis uh both of our passion and
also beyond that is that allthis new technology that is a
wave uh crashing everything thatwe know, especially the work
(28:47):
that we do and how we how wecome about it.
And for sure, AI has been thebiggest one in this last uh two,
three years.
It became from something thatpeople talk about into we have
to we have access to it everyday now.
Or we are more conscious that wehave access to it every day.
Yes.
Uh so it's it's it's going to bean interesting future, and I
(29:10):
hope we're gonna be on the rightside of the future.
Um and thank you for remindingus that innovation is not just
about speed or hype, it's aboutdurability, structure, and
intention.
In a world of fast pivots of anold ideas, your work shows that
the strongest foundations areoften invisible, but they shape
(29:33):
everything, from IP to impact,it's not just what we build, but
how well we're protected.
Because innovation withoutstructure is just luck.
And we are here to build withpurpose.
SPEAKER_03 (29:46):
Yes, indeed.
SPEAKER_05 (29:47):
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_03 (29:48):
Thank you, Letizia.
SPEAKER_00 (29:51):
Thank you for listening to Intangibia, the
podcast of Intangible Law.
Plane talk about intellectualproperty.
Did you like what we talked to?
Today, please share with yournetwork.
Do you want to learn more aboutintellectual property?
Subscribe now on your favoritepodcast player.
Follow us on Instagram,Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter.
(30:12):
Visit our websitewww.intangiblia.com.
Copyright Leticia Caminero 2020.
All rights reserved.
This podcast is provided forinformation purposes only.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by Audiochuck Media Company.
The Brothers Ortiz
The Brothers Ortiz is the story of two brothers–both successful, but in very different ways. Gabe Ortiz becomes a third-highest ranking officer in all of Texas while his younger brother Larry climbs the ranks in Puro Tango Blast, a notorious Texas Prison gang. Gabe doesn’t know all the details of his brother’s nefarious dealings, and he’s made a point not to ask, to protect their relationship. But when Larry is murdered during a home invasion in a rented beach house, Gabe has no choice but to look into what happened that night. To solve Larry’s murder, Gabe, and the whole Ortiz family, must ask each other tough questions.