October 19, 2022 • 50 mins
As an eight-year-old boy from a large family, living together in a Brooklyn tenement, Mike Lew had a singular goal—to meet every person on the planet. Today, Mike and his Next Step Counseling, co-director Thomas Harrigan, travel the world providing individual therapy, couples counseling, group therapy, professional training, and public lectures around the globe.
Mike is a psychotherapist and cultural anthropologist, specializing in the field of culture and personality. Working in tandem with Margaret Mead and Colin Turnbull as mentors, he became a leading expert on sexual abuse recovery, especially with male survivors.
A turning point came when Mike made an appearance on the Oprah Winfrey Show, he returned home from the male survivor episode to an offer to write a book on recovery. Mike’s book, Victims No Longer Harper Collins 2004, now in its second edition (first edition published in 1990), is the classic guide for men recovering from childhood sexual abuse. The book continues to receive accolades for its clinical expertise and compassionate tone. This essential resource educates survivors and professionals about the recovery process, speaking to the pain, needs, fears, and hopes of the adult male survivor.
Mr. Lew has assisted thousands of men and women in their recovery and healing from childhood sexual abuse, rape, physical violence, emotional abuse, and neglect. He has consulted with the United Nations, National Institute of Mental Health, National Resource Center on Child Sexual Abuse, National Child Abuse Hotline, and the U.S. Navy, among many others.
Mike has taught at The University of California Santa Cruz, Quinnipiac College, The College of New Rochelle, and The City College of New York. His second book, Leaping Upon The Mountains: Men Proclaiming Victory over Sexual Child Abuse was published by Small Wonder Books in 1999.
Thom and Mike host Leaping Upon Mountains a transformative annual recovery summit retreat, at the Kirkridge Retreat Center in Bangor, Pa. We are thrilled to welcome this tireless champion for survivors of sexual abuse to this episode of Intrinsic Drive ®.
Intrinsic Drive ® is produced by Ellen Strickler and Phil Wharton and Andrew Hollingworth is sound editor and engineer. For more information on this and other episodes visit us at https://www.whartonhealth.com/intrinsicdrive.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Phil Wharton (00:00):
A lifetime of training, practice study, hard
work through discipline, someachieve excellence, mastery,
fulfillment, self actualization.
What can we learn from theirbeginnings, discoveries,
motivations and falls? How dothey dust themselves off and
resume their journey? Duringthese interviews, stories and
conversations, we reveal theirintrinsic drive.
(00:23):
As an eight year old boy from alarge family living together in
a Brooklyn tenement, Mike Lewhad a singular goal to meet
every person on the planet.
Today, Mike and his next stepcounseling co- director Thom
Harrigan traveled the worldproviding individual therapy,
(00:43):
couples counseling, grouptherapy, professional training,
and public lectures around theglobe. Mike is a psychotherapist
and cultural anthropologistspecializing in the field of
culture and personality. Workingin tandem with Margaret Mead and
Colin Turnbull as mentors, hebecame a leading expert on
(01:04):
sexual abuse recovery,especially with male survivors.
A turning point came when Mikemade an appearance on The Oprah
Winfrey Show. He returned homefrom the male survivor episode
to an offer to write a book onrecovery. Mike's book, Victims
No Longer is the classic guidefor men recovering from Sexual
(01:24):
Child Abuse. The book continuesto receive accolades for its
clinical expertise, andcompassionate tone. This
essential resource educatessurvivors and professionals
about the recovery process,speaking to the pain, needs,
fears and hopes of the adultmale survivor. Mr. Lew has
(01:46):
assisted 1000's of men and womenin the recovery and healing from
childhood sexual abuse, rape,physical violence, emotional
abuse and neglect. He hasconsulted with United Nations
National Institute of MentalHealth, National Resource Center
on child sexual abuse, NationalChild abuse hotline, and the US
(02:08):
Navy, among many others. Mike istaught at the University of
California Santa Cruz,Quinnipiac college, the College
of New Rochelle, and the CityCollege of New York. In his
second book, leaping upon themountains, men proclaiming
victory over Sexual Child abusewas published by small wonder
(02:30):
books in 1999. Thom and Mikehost Leaping Upon Mountains, a
transformative annual recoverysummit retreat at the Kirkridge
Retreat Center in Bangor,Pennsylvania. We are thrilled to
welcome this tireless championfor survivors of sexual abuse to
this episode of intrinsic drive.
(02:54):
Mike, thanks so much for beingwith us today on intrinsic
drive. It's such a pleasure tohave you with us, and welcome to
the show.
MIke Lew (03:02):
Thank you, Phil, it's my pleasure.
Phil Wharton (03:05):
Let's go to the beginning your Genesis, take us
to the beginning of your journeywith your work. And was it your
work as a culturalanthropologist alongside
Margaret Mead? And alongsideColin Turnbull? Or was there an
inciting moment for you in this?
MIke Lew (03:22):
I don't know that there was a moment so much as it
evolved, I, as you say, I wastrained as a cultural
anthropologist, and the specificfocus is psychological
anthropology, what's calledculture and personality. And one
(03:46):
of the things that you learnwhen you're training to be an
anthropologist, first of all, isthat every behavior makes sense.
If you understand the context,and if you don't, if it doesn't
make sense to you, it's eitherbecause you don't have enough
information, or because you'retrying to apply your perspective
(04:12):
on to somebody else who doesn'tshare that perspective. The
other thing you learn whenyou're training to be an
anthropologist is to shut up andlisten and pay attention. So,
later, I got a master's degreein counseling psych and started
(04:36):
working in private practice andI had a very general practice
about equal numbers of men andwomen all ages, various
presenting issues. And I wasdoing mostly short term work
(04:57):
because I am not by nature avery patient person. To say if I
were going to be a doctor, Iwould probably be a surgeon, my
tendency would be to open peopleup, get rid of the problems, sew
them up, and send them off.
Phil Wharton (05:17):
Wow.
MIke Lew (05:18):
But when I started working with trauma survivors, I
got dragged kicking andscreaming into doing longer and
longer term work, because that'swhat's required. It's, there is
no quick fix, there is no easyanswer. I didn't know very much
(05:38):
about sexual abuse, childhoodsexual abuse, I was in no way an
expert on sexual trauma. What Iknew about incest was that every
culture that I know of, has ataboo against incest. And I
(05:58):
figured societies don't createtaboos, just for the heck of it.
You know, they, they do itbecause there's something going
on that they want to prevent. Sowhen my clients, both male and
female, started talking aboutsexual abuse, and other sexual
(06:22):
trauma in childhood andadolescence, I believed them,
because I figured why would theymake this up? And so I started
looking for resources. And I Iwas at the time I was working in
(06:43):
Boston and Cambridge,Massachusetts. And for those who
don't know it, there are moretherapists per capita in Boston
and Cambridge than anywhereelse, anywhere else on the
planet, probably. And there is agroup for everything. And I
(07:08):
mean, literally everything. Ionce had a client who was a
member of a support group forCatholic, lesbian, former nuns,
who were in a primaryrelationship with Jewish
Daughters of Holocaustsurvivors.
Phil Wharton (07:29):
Talk about niche niche niche.
MIke Lew (07:32):
And there were enough people for a group, yeah, wow.
But there was no group for malesurvivors, and I thought that
was odd. At the time, the only Iwas looking for resources. The
only book that I found that waseven remotely helpful was Judith
(07:53):
Herman's first book called,Father Daughter Insest, which
was a good book, but as you cantell from the title, not
particularly directed towardmale survivors. And in fact, at
the time, in her first chapter,she wrote, fathers rarely abused
(08:14):
their son's. Well, I didn'tthink that could be true, since
that's not what I was hearingfrom my, from my male survivor
clients. She also wrote thatgroup was the treatment of
choice for women who had beenincestuously abused by their
(08:37):
fathers. So I started lookingfor a group for one of my female
clients. And I got her hooked upwith a group that Judith Herman
herself was leading. And itmoved her recovery forward,
exponentially.
Phil Wharton (08:55):
Okay. Okay.
MIke Lew (08:57):
So I started looking for a group for some of my male
clients, and there was nothing,there's nothing in Boston, there
was nothing in Cambridge, therewas nothing in New England. And
so in classic male fashion, whatI did about it was I started to
complain. And I complained toanyone who would listen largely
(09:21):
to Judith Herman and her groupof female therapists working
with female survivors. And theylet me complain way, way longer
than probably I should havedone, but they were patient. You
know, and I was railing aboutthe lack of services and the
(09:42):
lack of resources. And finally,as they stay in Boston, the
light dawned over Marblehead.
And I said, Okay, I'll start agroup. And the women therapists
got very supportive, veryencouraging. And I said, but I
don't know anything. I'mterrified. They said, well,
(10:03):
that's appropriate. They said,but don't worry. Because there's
so much shame and fear and guiltand confusion around this
subject, that it'll take you acouple of years, to get a group
together, men will sign up andchange their minds and, you
(10:25):
know, call and not show up. Soyou'll have plenty of time to
learn what you need to learn.
But they didn't say where I wasgoing to learn it. But okay, I
was reassured, and I sent out aflyer to all of the counseling
(10:48):
centers that I knew of, all ofthe departments of psychiatry
and social work of the areahospitals, which their were
many. And I put a small, tiny,classified ad in a local
newspaper. And within a fewweeks, I had two groups in a
(11:11):
waiting list.
Phil Wharton (11:12):
Wow, okay, that quickly
MIke Lew (11:14):
Which amazed me, I still didn't know anything. But
I figured the time was right,you know, people were ready. So
I started these groups. Andfortunately for me, survivors
are very generous. And theytaught me what I needed to know.
(11:36):
And, you know, for anyoneworking with survivors, as long
as you proceed with honesty andrespect, you know, they will
teach you what you need to know.
The thing I always say intrainings with professionals is
(11:56):
never lie to a survivor. Youknow, because the minute you do,
you've lost them forever. Andrightly so. Their expert,
they've been lied to all theirlives, and they're experts on
lying, so you've got nothing toteach them in the area of lying.
(12:19):
Be truthful, you don't have totell them everything. But no. Be
honest.
So I had these two groups. And Ialso started talking to any, to
anybody who would listen, I didlocal radio shows, l did TV
(12:43):
shows, I spoke to communitygroups and schools and colleges
and church groups. And mostlydoing a lot of whining about the
lack of awareness and the lackof services. And somehow, some
(13:05):
assertive gene kicked in withme. And I sent I contacted the
Oprah Winfrey Show, which at thetime was a live show out of
Chicago. And at first, theysaid, you know, thank you for
your interest. But that's notsomething we're interested in
(13:26):
doing right now. And theneventually, they got back to me
and said they would, they wantedto do a show on male sexual
abuse survivors. And they wantedme on as the so called expert.
And they were also going to havea panel of male survivors.
Phil Wharton (13:50):
And this is before victims who hadn't written the
text yet.
MIke Lew (13:53):
I'll get there. Okay, this was, this was a 1987, I
believe, and people weren'ttalking about it. And there was
this panel of three verycourageous male survivors who
came on to talk about their,their abuse history. And the
(14:24):
power of the media. They flew meto Chicago, I had to get right
back to my practice afterwards.
So as soon as the show was over,they whisked me into a limousine
drove me out to O'Hare Airport.
And as I was boarding theflight, the flight attendant
(14:46):
said to me, didn't I just seeyou on television?
Phil Wharton (14:49):
The power of that Yeah.
MIke Lew (14:51):
So I got home. And there were lots of messages on
my answering machine. One ofthem was from an editor and
publisher in New York, who said,I've been looking for someone to
write a book about this subject.
I think you're the person to doit. And I told him, No, you
know, I am not a writer. I havenever written anything I don't
(15:15):
know how to do and he said,"come to New York and we'll
talk". Okay. free trip to NewYork I'm there. So I get there.
And he said, I think you can doit. And I said, No, I don't
think I can never writtenanything in my life. He said,
I'll help you. And I said, Iwill try. So I went home. I
(15:40):
bought my first ever computer,one of those little old boxy.
Mac's. Called my then 12 yearold niece, and said, teach me
how to use this thing. Which shedid with a lot of eyerolling.
(16:02):
Mike, everybody knows that. Andwithout knowing where I was
going, in nine months, I had abook. And I think I was very
fortunate, because there wassuch a great need for a book on
(16:22):
the subject, that if the bookwas terrible, people still would
have latched on to it. And luck,and it could have done a lot of
harm. Luckily, the book wasn'tterrible. Now, it's I've
improved it over the years,different editions. But, you
(16:45):
know, it was a good book.
Phil Wharton (16:50):
Absolutely.
MIke Lew (16:50):
And you asked about what, you know, the impetus this
changed my life. You know, itwas as if somebody like kind of
grabbed me by the hair and swungme around and let me go. Because
I became an instant expert, longbefore I knew very much. And in
(17:14):
fact, if I knew how little Iknew then, I might never have
written the book. So that's theway it all began. And now my
work is primarily, it'soverwhelming with adult male
survivors, of all sorts of abusein childhood and adolescence,
(17:41):
and training professionals whoeither work with survivors or
want to work with survivors, andbasically that's it that's
that's how that's the genesis ofit all.
Phil Wharton (18:01):
Yes. And I think you've also taken us to your
acent. I mean that incitingmoment of being asked to be on
the number one syndicated talkshow in the world, just
jettisoned you into a place thatyou I am not ready coach you
know it as you say to youreditor No Let we have something
(18:22):
here let's move this forward.
What about the discovery Mike?
When you're going into what didyou learn through experiences
and events and what new thingscame to light? Mentors, coaches
teachers like your editor in NewYork what was revealed?
MIke Lew (18:45):
Well, I've been lucky to have lots of really powerful
mentors in my life. And some ofthe best of them just gave me
room and said, you know, you cando it, go off do it without too
much structure, or without toomuch pushing me in a specific
(19:11):
direction. I am in awe of theway directions my life has
turned. Because nothing wasplanned. I am not a planner. I
barely know when where I'm goingto have lunch today, let alone
(19:34):
planning for the future. So theway I describe it is that I walk
in one direction till I hit awall bounce off and walk in
another direction. And foundmyself on a career path which,
(19:55):
well let me tell you a story.
When I was a kid. My goal inlife was to meet everybody in
the world.
Phil Wharton (20:03):
Wow.
That's a great goal.
MIke Lew (20:06):
I thought that was, and I thought that was a
perfectly reasonable wonderfulgoal. And when I realized that,
A, it wasn't going to happen,and B, if it did happen, your
quality of the interactionwouldn't be terribly profound. I
(20:29):
was really devastated. Because Ithought, hey, this is really
what I want.
Phil Wharton (20:36):
And how old were you now? Do you have a
recollection of your age?
MIke Lew (20:40):
Eight, nine, ten. And without any conscious planning,
I found myself doing work thatcomes as close to that goal, as
I can imagine that I get totravel to these amazing places
(21:02):
I've worked in with Aboriginalcommunities in Australia
Phil Wharton (21:09):
And New Zealand.
Yeah. Asia, Africa.
MIke Lew (21:13):
Yeah. And it's, and I get to meet these extraordinary
people. Powerful, courageous,smart. Understanding both the
survivors and the people whocare about partners, family,
(21:34):
friends, and therapists.
Phil Wharton (21:37):
Advocates. Yeah, yeah.
MIke Lew (21:38):
And, you know, it's, it's kept me going, it's very
exciting to me. And I havemassive respect to the people I
get to meet and work with, and Ilearn all the time. And I
reckon if, if I stop learning,that's probably the time to
(21:59):
quit. But you know, when youreach my age, you start getting
these questions. Are you evergoing to retire? And my response
is, well, I'm doing work that Ilove, and that I'm passionate
about. And working withphenomenal people. That's on the
(22:25):
one hand, on the other hand,there's golf, and you know, I,
I'm not that interested in golf.
So as long as I'm able to, andpassionate about the work, I'll
continue to do it. And if I stopbeing passionate about it, then
I'll look for something else.
Phil Wharton (22:48):
That makes total sense. And it feels like Mike
some of these drives that urgedyou forward into the next
question, almost came as thatchild that eight or nine year
old, that wanted to meeteverybody. And now you're
bouncing against those walls orpulled in this direction, by an
(23:08):
unseen force. That's put youinto a world of powerful work,
but play, you're actuallyplaying at healing, you know, in
a very remarkable way. So
MIke Lew (23:23):
You know, I think that when we do, when we follow our
passion, we don't go too farwrong. I once I was doing a
professional training years ago,and during one of the breaks a
woman came up to me, and she wason a tear. She said, I don't
(23:44):
know how you can do this work.
It must be so difficult. It mustbe so painful, working with men
who were sexually abused asboys. And she was going on and
on and on. And when she pausedfor breath, I asked her, What do
you do? And she said, Oh, Iwork with children with cancer.
And I said, I wouldn't last fiveminutes working with kids with
(24:10):
cancer, I'd be a mess. But itwas what she did. It was her
passion. And she really didn'tthink twice about it. Yeah. I
think if you find that thingthat you don't think twice
about, because you love it.
Yeah. It's work, but it's notdebilitating.
Phil Wharton (24:31):
Yeah. Reminds me of a friend of mine when I lived
in Flagstaff, who a fireman whowas a smoke jumper. And he would
just smile about it is Eric, howdo you suit up and go into
those? He goes, Hey, it's goodwork. It's the gift of good
work. You know.
MIke Lew (24:48):
There you go.
This is so beautiful. I thinkyou know, it's like, what do you
think about external or internalmotivations for these drives
that keep you going in thisdirection? Any of those that
come to mind?
Well, I'm probably not as deep athinker as you are, but
Phil Wharton (25:13):
I don't know about that.
MIke Lew (25:15):
So I don't. I don't really analyze my motivation, I
figure, if I think it's a goodthing, and I'm able to do it, I
do it. You know, my, my family,my parents were always
(25:40):
encouraging good work, goodworks. And so I never felt held
back by their by negativejudgments. So. Again, I think
(26:02):
it was both a positive and anegative, that there was no real
body of existing informationoutright.
Phil Wharton (26:14):
That's right.
That's right.
MIke Lew (26:16):
That, you know, I didn't have a whole lot of
guidelines. I had to make my ownmistakes. But they were mine to
make. And some of thetraditional guidelines,
certainly, for work with malesurvivors of sexual abuse, some
of the existing conventionalwisdom is actually missing.
Phil Wharton (26:42):
Was flawed. So there was a gap, it was a gap
there.
MIke Lew (26:46):
And a lot of that is because a lot of the work with
men was based on work withsexual offenders. And what they
did was that they extrapolated,men who were incarcerated for
(27:09):
sexual offences, often claimedto have been abused as boys. And
what people did with that wasthat they turned it around said
that boys who were abused grewup to be offenders. And the
reality is, the vast majority ofmale survivors, both male
(27:32):
actually the vast majority ofboys or girls who are, don't
grow up to abuse. And in fact,many of them grow up to be
protectors. You know, they'vesaid, consciously or
unconsciously, I know what itfeels like to have experienced
(27:53):
this. And I'm going to dowhatever I can to make sure it
isn't done to other kids, whichis tremendous courage and
generosity to supply to kidswhat they never received.
And I think that's whywe have, I believe we have an
Phil Wharton (28:07):
Yes.
over representation of survivorsin the helping fields, who are
therapists in the medicalprofessions and police and child
protective workers. They'reputting themselves into
(28:30):
positions to protect and helpkids.
Yes. Yeah.
MIke Lew (28:36):
But I think that bite of the vampire theory, know that
a boy who is abused, is gonnagrow up to be an abuser, is one
of the things that keeps a lotof male survivors silent. That's
either the fear that they'rerepressing some, or the fear
(28:59):
that people will see them asabusers if they disclose. And
many male survivors have hadthat experience. It's happening
less than it used to. But coupleof decades ago, men could call a
rape crisis center looking forhelp and be treated as if they
(29:21):
were calling to confess. So youdon't have to have that
experience too many times toknow that it's not safe to talk
about.
Phil Wharton (29:33):
Again, another reinforcement to stay silent,
which is the one thing that willstop your progress of healing or
biggest. Mike in the fall orspeed bumps we have here on the
show. What about a lowest momentin your career or life overall?
Was there an inciting a majorevent in this?
MIke Lew (30:03):
Maybe that's yet to come. I don't know.
Phil Wharton (30:07):
That's great,
MIke Lew (30:08):
There were times when I thought you know, this is too
much for me. I get over thatfairly quickly. Because the
people I work with inspire methey energize me. I mean, it's
work.
Phil Wharton (30:28):
Yeah, absolutely.
MIke Lew (30:29):
But it's, I get to spend my life around heros and,
I don't know that many peoplecan say that. In the work I do
puts me in constant contact withheroic men, and people who care
(30:52):
about those heroic men, andthat's inspiring. And that's
energizing.
Phil Wharton (30:58):
Absolutely.
Absolutely. I was thinkingmaybe, you know, when I was
reading the book and hearing somuch about the testimonials from
the Boston hearings in theclergy, with the sexual abuse
cases and the devastation there,it was their time? Okay, maybe
(31:18):
you felt okay. I can't quitereach enough people or maybe the
Penn State uncoverings of theSandusky trial for sexual child
abuse there with the coaching?
Was there any of those periodswhen gosh, if there was if there
was more of us if we could domore?
MIke Lew (31:37):
Always. Yes, absolutely. In that sense.
Because what I believe is thatall of the major ills of society
begin with the idea of childrenas property. Because if
(32:01):
something is your property, youcan do anything you like with
it. You can sell it, you cankill it, You can harm it, you
can sexually abuse it. Becauseit's your property. And I think
if we can justify harming theweakest and most vulnerable
(32:22):
members of society, we canjustify anything. So we can
justify racism and sexism andhomophobia, anti semitism, anti
Islam. And we can justify rapingthe planet, and we can justify
war andGreed through our greed. Yeah,
(32:42):
yes. Yeah.
Yeah.
So it starts with the kids. Andthat's huge. Now, and we need
many more people recognizingthis and working on this, and
I'm just one guy. I'm anordinary, you know, I'm a
(33:05):
working class kid who is a childof an immigrant family. And I
was the first person in myfamily to go to college. No, so
from time to time I kind of lookaround and say now how did this
happen? How did I get here? Andcan I handle this? And
(33:29):
fortunately, there are more andmore people who are sharing this
vision that we have to starttreating children with respect.
We have to listen. And we haveto shine a light on the abuse so
that we can end it.
Phil Wharton (33:52):
That's right.
Yeah, I love this piece youwrote it was an Op-ed piece.
After the Penn State childhoodsexual abuse case broke. The
someone on the New York DailyNews, I think team asked you to
write this piece and it was youtitled it Believe Them. And I
just, you know, so powerful, youknow, speaking to the need to
(34:15):
increase or eliminate statute oflimitations on prosecution of a
child abuse, sex cases,survivors cannot be expected to
speak out until they are readyand able to that, that timing.
And so you know, no wonder thatsurvivors especially males
maintain their silence for somany years. Most of my clients
range in their lives was 20'sthrough 60's. It is unusual for
(34:38):
males in their teens and 20's tobegin to address these issues
and begin a difficult and oftenpainful journey of healing. And
just such a powerful piece thatunfortunately, they chose not to
run but. On the anvil if you Ithink we recovered the rollback,
because there's nothing youwould do differently. I mean,
(35:01):
you're pulled in thisdirections. And you know, maybe
it's the hand of God or whateveryou call it, you know, the
higher power that's filling thisgap. It's so needed. What would
you think about an event ordecision that forged you a
defining moment that shaped your
MIke Lew (35:21):
Just just to back up a second. I'm not sure there
destiny?
aren't things I wouldn't do? Iwouldn't do different.
Phil Wharton (35:30):
Oh, very good, good.
MIke Lew (35:34):
I don't spend a whole lot of time focusing on the
woulda, coulda, shoulda.
Phil Wharton (35:38):
Got it.
MIke Lew (35:40):
There's too much work to be done.
Phil Wharton (35:42):
Excellent.
Excellent. Excellent.
That makes sense.
MIke Lew (35:46):
That said, repeat your question.
Phil Wharton (35:48):
Yes. Thank you. On the anvil, what about an event
or decision that forged you adefining moment that shaped your
MIke Lew (35:56):
I'm not sure that I could tease one formative moment
destiny?
(36:16):
out. I think that everythingthat we experience contributes
to our our arsenal, ourunderstanding. And I don't think
anything gets lost. I mean, youknow, the years I spent as an
academic, I learned a lot. Thatwasn't the lost time even though
(36:40):
I'm not an academic and longer.
But also, I've worked in afactory. I learned things
working in a factory.
Phil Wharton (36:48):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
MIke Lew (36:49):
So, you know, as long as you can extract useful
information and experience thatall contributes to forming who
you are. And I don't know thatpeople really have one of those
(37:10):
major AHA, epiphany moments. Atleast I didn't, you know, it's
it was more of a gradualevolving, of understanding.
Hopefully, now, some maturityand some more and more openness.
Phil Wharton (37:34):
Yeah.
MIke Lew (37:35):
Yeah.
All these layers of experience.
Yeah, that's created this,pulling you in this direction,
created this idea of how you cannow as an impatient as a self
proclaimed impatient person,right, be such an amazing active
listener, and ability toidentify and be with these
heroes, you know.
(37:56):
But the experts, I mean,basically, you know, if I want
to learn something, I go to theexperts. And in the case of the
work I do, the experts are thesurvivors. I'll say to somebody
in the first meeting. You'velived with you for 50 years.
(38:18):
I've known you for 10 minutes.
Who's the expert here?
That's right. I love that.
That's so appropriate. Yeah.
You know,and I think part of the learning
of patience is to get pastdefensiveness. And I'll say to
people I work with. You don'thave to trust me. You know, that
(38:46):
making trust a prereq. Aprerequisite for a person whose
trust has been damaged. Doesn'tmake sense. In fact, by the time
people completely trust me, ourwork is pretty well done.
Phil Wharton (39:07):
And I love I love what you said at first, if I
tell you, you have to trust me,walk away.
MIke Lew (39:13):
Yeah. Absolutely. You know, it's not important that
you trust me it's important thatI be trustworthy. Whether or not
you trust me. And that the firsttime I get defensive, when you
disagree with again, walk away.
Because, you know, I expectpeople to test me I expect
(39:40):
people to be wary. Why wouldn'tthey know and I don't have all
the information. Part of theprocess of healing is giving me
that information is figuring outa safe way to do that. And one
(40:01):
of the things that I tellprofessionals when I do a
training is the secret of doinga really good group or workshop
for male survivors that I, ittook me years to learn it, I
(40:22):
just share it indiscriminatelynow. That is you create safety.
And then you get the hell out ofthe way. And to the degree that
you manage that, it's a doublebenefit for me. The male
survivors accomplish the mostimpressive, brilliant, creative
(40:46):
things. And I get the credit forit.
Phil Wharton (40:56):
If you're an egoist, you'd have a field day.
No, I love that fact that yousaid look, in these male groups
in these sexual abuse recoverygroups, especially like the
retreats, the compassion,there's a palpability have the
energy, of that compassion, ofthat transference of that
(41:17):
sharing that release of thesilence and isolation
dissipation.
MIke Lew (41:24):
And of course, well, I, I'm, I've become more and
more convinced over the years,that isolation is the enemy of
recovery. That abuse takes placein isolation and recovery has to
happen in thecompany of others.
But it's tricky. Becauseisolation can feel like safety.
(41:46):
I'm by myself, nobody's gonnamess with me. But, but it's not
safety, because it allows all ofthe abuse messages, the
negativity, hopelessness, thehelplessness, to replay like a
tape loop, without anything oranyone to contradict them. And
(42:06):
nobody, can understand a malesurvivor better than another
male survivor, which is whygroup and workshops are so
essential. I had one guy in oneof my groups who kept saying,
you know, in most of my life, Ifeel like, I'm speaking a
(42:28):
different language than everyoneelse. And I come to a group and
everyone understands.
Phil Wharton (42:36):
That's beautiful.
Yeah. Yeah. In your journey now,Mike, what's most important to
you and the work now? What doesthe road ahead look like for
you? And Thom, with Next StepCounseling and what's next?
MIke Lew (42:54):
Well, one of the things is encouraging more and
more people who are interestedin doing this work. You know,
I'm not likely to be around toomany more decades. And I think
(43:18):
the work has to continue. And itcan't be dependent on me, it
can't be dependent on Thom. Ithas, you know, there have to be
people committed to doing it.
All over the world. Andspecifically, people have to be
trained to do it within theirown communities. So, I mean, as
I've said, I say I've workedwith Aboriginal groups in
(43:43):
Australia. But the mosteffective work would be by
Aboriginal workers. However,that's defined. You know, I've
worked with Latinos and AfricanAmericans. Yeah. But they don't
(44:05):
come. They don't show up indroves. Why would they? Why
would they trust this old whiteguy? So the more people who, you
know, who take this on withintheir own communities, the
better I think I know when I'veworked, I remember one time. I
(44:28):
did a very large training in NewMexico for Native American
groups. And there were peoplefrom all sorts of tribal
backgrounds from all over,mostly the western United
States. And what they wereanticipating, was this old white
(44:50):
guy was going to show up andtell them what to do. And what I
asked at the beginning was Isaid, you're an ancient culture.
You've learned a lot. Tell mewhat you've learned. Tell me
what works for you. And tell mewhat you still need. And they
(45:14):
weren't used to hearing thatfrom an old white guy. Right.
But what I've learned, withoutexception, anywhere in the world
I've worked with any group I'veworked with, is if you approach
people with respect, theyrespond. I mean, that's, this
(45:38):
isn't rocket science. Treatpeople with respect, and they
will respond.
Phil Wharton (45:50):
It's being human.
The human experience. Oh, I lovethis. And Mike, if you look back
in the slipstream of your lifeand think about any parting gems
of advice or wisdom you'd liketo leave with us today?
MIke Lew (46:09):
Well, I think that what I'd like to say to
survivors, and I guess to peoplecare about survivors as well, is
that I know that recovery ispossible. That it's real. It
matters. And it's possible. AndI know this is true, because
(46:30):
I've seen hundreds and hundredsof survivors, male and female,
all around the world, activelyengaged in the recovery process,
actively making changes in theirown lives, in their families and
in their communities. So youknow, it's a hard job, turning
(46:54):
these negativities around. Butthe results, the results are
worth the effort. Changehappens. And the change is
profound.
Phil Wharton (47:08):
Yeah, and please, folks, I mean, go out and get
this updated and revisededition. I have it right here on
my desk. And it's just been sucha blessing for me as I start my
journey. Victims No Longer, TheClassic Guide for Men recovering
from Sexual Child Abuse, HarperCollins book, I think you
revised it in 2004. Mike, andthen in the other book that I
(47:33):
haven't read yet, but I lookforward to it Leaping Upon
Mountains, Men ProclaimingVictory over Sexual Child Abuse
is a 1999 book, from SmallWonder, and those
MIke Lew (47:44):
that's at the moment, that's only available as a
Phil Wharton (47:48):
As a as an Ebook now, okay, in that in that text
is an Ebook. And we'll have allthat in the liner notes of the
show. And please go to thewebsite for Mike and Tom in
their, in their counseling groupis www.nextstepcounseling.org.
And we'll also have that as alink and to keep up on all the
(48:10):
workshops coming up and and alsothe men's groups that are
online, isn't that right Mike?
Zoom groups are going on allover the world. And as the world
opens back up, post pandemic,hopefully, you'll be able to go
back and start training thepeople in the locales and
different countries and all overthe, our country on this
(48:31):
powerful work.
MIke Lew (48:34):
It's starting slowly.
We have a couple of workshopsset up in Pennsylvania, we have
one scheduled in the UK in July,and a professional training in
the UK. So we're we're comingback slowly. But you know,
things have been pretty crazythe last two, three years
Phil Wharton (48:53):
Really crazy.
Yeah, it's a blessing, you'reable to reach people online. And
that's obviously not the same asbeing in the room with them and
being able to, to be rightthere. So, Mike, it's just been
such a wonderful blessing tohave you on intrinsic drive. And
thank you so much for your timeand your service to the world
and for men suffering fromsexual child abuse and women all
(49:18):
around the world. Mike, thankyou.
MIke Lew (49:23):
Thank you.
Phil Wharton (49:25):
Thanks for being with us. We appreciate you
opting in, subscribing, andreviewing us, for thumbing us up
and following us on socials.
Liking us. We like you. Drop usa note. Tell us what stories
move you for books, videos,resources and more information.
(49:47):
Visit us atwww.whartonhealth.com forward
slash shop wharton health, andbe sure to join us for the next
episode of intrinsic drive.
A lifetime of training, practice study, hard
work through discipline, someachieve excellence, mastery,
fulfillment, self actualization.
What can we learn from theirbeginnings, discoveries,
motivations and falls? How dothey dust themselves off and
resume their journey? Duringthese interviews, stories and
conversations, we reveal theirintrinsic drive.
(00:23):
As an eight year old boy from alarge family living together in
a Brooklyn tenement, Mike Lewhad a singular goal to meet
every person on the planet.
Today, Mike and his next stepcounseling co- director Thom
Harrigan traveled the worldproviding individual therapy,
(00:43):
couples counseling, grouptherapy, professional training,
and public lectures around theglobe. Mike is a psychotherapist
and cultural anthropologistspecializing in the field of
culture and personality. Workingin tandem with Margaret Mead and
Colin Turnbull as mentors, hebecame a leading expert on
(01:04):
sexual abuse recovery,especially with male survivors.
A turning point came when Mikemade an appearance on The Oprah
Winfrey Show. He returned homefrom the male survivor episode
to an offer to write a book onrecovery. Mike's book, Victims
No Longer is the classic guidefor men recovering from Sexual
(01:24):
Child Abuse. The book continuesto receive accolades for its
clinical expertise, andcompassionate tone. This
essential resource educatessurvivors and professionals
about the recovery process,speaking to the pain, needs,
fears and hopes of the adultmale survivor. Mr. Lew has
(01:46):
assisted 1000's of men and womenin the recovery and healing from
childhood sexual abuse, rape,physical violence, emotional
abuse and neglect. He hasconsulted with United Nations
National Institute of MentalHealth, National Resource Center
on child sexual abuse, NationalChild abuse hotline, and the US
(02:08):
Navy, among many others. Mike istaught at the University of
California Santa Cruz,Quinnipiac college, the College
of New Rochelle, and the CityCollege of New York. In his
second book, leaping upon themountains, men proclaiming
victory over Sexual Child abusewas published by small wonder
(02:30):
books in 1999. Thom and Mikehost Leaping Upon Mountains, a
transformative annual recoverysummit retreat at the Kirkridge
Retreat Center in Bangor,Pennsylvania. We are thrilled to
welcome this tireless championfor survivors of sexual abuse to
this episode of intrinsic drive.
(02:54):
Mike, thanks so much for beingwith us today on intrinsic
drive. It's such a pleasure tohave you with us, and welcome to
the show.
MIke Lew (03:02):
Thank you, Phil, it's my pleasure.
Phil Wharton (03:05):
Let's go to the beginning your Genesis, take us
to the beginning of your journeywith your work. And was it your
work as a culturalanthropologist alongside
Margaret Mead? And alongsideColin Turnbull? Or was there an
inciting moment for you in this?
MIke Lew (03:22):
I don't know that there was a moment so much as it
evolved, I, as you say, I wastrained as a cultural
anthropologist, and the specificfocus is psychological
anthropology, what's calledculture and personality. And one
(03:46):
of the things that you learnwhen you're training to be an
anthropologist, first of all, isthat every behavior makes sense.
If you understand the context,and if you don't, if it doesn't
make sense to you, it's eitherbecause you don't have enough
information, or because you'retrying to apply your perspective
(04:12):
on to somebody else who doesn'tshare that perspective. The
other thing you learn whenyou're training to be an
anthropologist is to shut up andlisten and pay attention. So,
later, I got a master's degreein counseling psych and started
(04:36):
working in private practice andI had a very general practice
about equal numbers of men andwomen all ages, various
presenting issues. And I wasdoing mostly short term work
(04:57):
because I am not by nature avery patient person. To say if I
were going to be a doctor, Iwould probably be a surgeon, my
tendency would be to open peopleup, get rid of the problems, sew
them up, and send them off.
Phil Wharton (05:17):
Wow.
MIke Lew (05:18):
But when I started working with trauma survivors, I
got dragged kicking andscreaming into doing longer and
longer term work, because that'swhat's required. It's, there is
no quick fix, there is no easyanswer. I didn't know very much
(05:38):
about sexual abuse, childhoodsexual abuse, I was in no way an
expert on sexual trauma. What Iknew about incest was that every
culture that I know of, has ataboo against incest. And I
(05:58):
figured societies don't createtaboos, just for the heck of it.
You know, they, they do itbecause there's something going
on that they want to prevent. Sowhen my clients, both male and
female, started talking aboutsexual abuse, and other sexual
(06:22):
trauma in childhood andadolescence, I believed them,
because I figured why would theymake this up? And so I started
looking for resources. And I Iwas at the time I was working in
(06:43):
Boston and Cambridge,Massachusetts. And for those who
don't know it, there are moretherapists per capita in Boston
and Cambridge than anywhereelse, anywhere else on the
planet, probably. And there is agroup for everything. And I
(07:08):
mean, literally everything. Ionce had a client who was a
member of a support group forCatholic, lesbian, former nuns,
who were in a primaryrelationship with Jewish
Daughters of Holocaustsurvivors.
Phil Wharton (07:29):
Talk about niche niche niche.
MIke Lew (07:32):
And there were enough people for a group, yeah, wow.
But there was no group for malesurvivors, and I thought that
was odd. At the time, the only Iwas looking for resources. The
only book that I found that waseven remotely helpful was Judith
(07:53):
Herman's first book called,Father Daughter Insest, which
was a good book, but as you cantell from the title, not
particularly directed towardmale survivors. And in fact, at
the time, in her first chapter,she wrote, fathers rarely abused
(08:14):
their son's. Well, I didn'tthink that could be true, since
that's not what I was hearingfrom my, from my male survivor
clients. She also wrote thatgroup was the treatment of
choice for women who had beenincestuously abused by their
(08:37):
fathers. So I started lookingfor a group for one of my female
clients. And I got her hooked upwith a group that Judith Herman
herself was leading. And itmoved her recovery forward,
exponentially.
Phil Wharton (08:55):
Okay. Okay.
MIke Lew (08:57):
So I started looking for a group for some of my male
clients, and there was nothing,there's nothing in Boston, there
was nothing in Cambridge, therewas nothing in New England. And
so in classic male fashion, whatI did about it was I started to
complain. And I complained toanyone who would listen largely
(09:21):
to Judith Herman and her groupof female therapists working
with female survivors. And theylet me complain way, way longer
than probably I should havedone, but they were patient. You
know, and I was railing aboutthe lack of services and the
(09:42):
lack of resources. And finally,as they stay in Boston, the
light dawned over Marblehead.
And I said, Okay, I'll start agroup. And the women therapists
got very supportive, veryencouraging. And I said, but I
don't know anything. I'mterrified. They said, well,
(10:03):
that's appropriate. They said,but don't worry. Because there's
so much shame and fear and guiltand confusion around this
subject, that it'll take you acouple of years, to get a group
together, men will sign up andchange their minds and, you
(10:25):
know, call and not show up. Soyou'll have plenty of time to
learn what you need to learn.
But they didn't say where I wasgoing to learn it. But okay, I
was reassured, and I sent out aflyer to all of the counseling
(10:48):
centers that I knew of, all ofthe departments of psychiatry
and social work of the areahospitals, which their were
many. And I put a small, tiny,classified ad in a local
newspaper. And within a fewweeks, I had two groups in a
(11:11):
waiting list.
Phil Wharton (11:12):
Wow, okay, that quickly
MIke Lew (11:14):
Which amazed me, I still didn't know anything. But
I figured the time was right,you know, people were ready. So
I started these groups. Andfortunately for me, survivors
are very generous. And theytaught me what I needed to know.
(11:36):
And, you know, for anyoneworking with survivors, as long
as you proceed with honesty andrespect, you know, they will
teach you what you need to know.
The thing I always say intrainings with professionals is
(11:56):
never lie to a survivor. Youknow, because the minute you do,
you've lost them forever. Andrightly so. Their expert,
they've been lied to all theirlives, and they're experts on
lying, so you've got nothing toteach them in the area of lying.
(12:19):
Be truthful, you don't have totell them everything. But no. Be
honest.
So I had these two groups. And Ialso started talking to any, to
anybody who would listen, I didlocal radio shows, l did TV
(12:43):
shows, I spoke to communitygroups and schools and colleges
and church groups. And mostlydoing a lot of whining about the
lack of awareness and the lackof services. And somehow, some
(13:05):
assertive gene kicked in withme. And I sent I contacted the
Oprah Winfrey Show, which at thetime was a live show out of
Chicago. And at first, theysaid, you know, thank you for
your interest. But that's notsomething we're interested in
(13:26):
doing right now. And theneventually, they got back to me
and said they would, they wantedto do a show on male sexual
abuse survivors. And they wantedme on as the so called expert.
And they were also going to havea panel of male survivors.
Phil Wharton (13:50):
And this is before victims who hadn't written the
text yet.
MIke Lew (13:53):
I'll get there. Okay, this was, this was a 1987, I
believe, and people weren'ttalking about it. And there was
this panel of three verycourageous male survivors who
came on to talk about their,their abuse history. And the
(14:24):
power of the media. They flew meto Chicago, I had to get right
back to my practice afterwards.
So as soon as the show was over,they whisked me into a limousine
drove me out to O'Hare Airport.
And as I was boarding theflight, the flight attendant
(14:46):
said to me, didn't I just seeyou on television?
Phil Wharton (14:49):
The power of that Yeah.
MIke Lew (14:51):
So I got home. And there were lots of messages on
my answering machine. One ofthem was from an editor and
publisher in New York, who said,I've been looking for someone to
write a book about this subject.
I think you're the person to doit. And I told him, No, you
know, I am not a writer. I havenever written anything I don't
(15:15):
know how to do and he said,"come to New York and we'll
talk". Okay. free trip to NewYork I'm there. So I get there.
And he said, I think you can doit. And I said, No, I don't
think I can never writtenanything in my life. He said,
I'll help you. And I said, Iwill try. So I went home. I
(15:40):
bought my first ever computer,one of those little old boxy.
Mac's. Called my then 12 yearold niece, and said, teach me
how to use this thing. Which shedid with a lot of eyerolling.
(16:02):
Mike, everybody knows that. Andwithout knowing where I was
going, in nine months, I had abook. And I think I was very
fortunate, because there wassuch a great need for a book on
(16:22):
the subject, that if the bookwas terrible, people still would
have latched on to it. And luck,and it could have done a lot of
harm. Luckily, the book wasn'tterrible. Now, it's I've
improved it over the years,different editions. But, you
(16:45):
know, it was a good book.
Phil Wharton (16:50):
Absolutely.
MIke Lew (16:50):
And you asked about what, you know, the impetus this
changed my life. You know, itwas as if somebody like kind of
grabbed me by the hair and swungme around and let me go. Because
I became an instant expert, longbefore I knew very much. And in
(17:14):
fact, if I knew how little Iknew then, I might never have
written the book. So that's theway it all began. And now my
work is primarily, it'soverwhelming with adult male
survivors, of all sorts of abusein childhood and adolescence,
(17:41):
and training professionals whoeither work with survivors or
want to work with survivors, andbasically that's it that's
that's how that's the genesis ofit all.
Phil Wharton (18:01):
Yes. And I think you've also taken us to your
acent. I mean that incitingmoment of being asked to be on
the number one syndicated talkshow in the world, just
jettisoned you into a place thatyou I am not ready coach you
know it as you say to youreditor No Let we have something
(18:22):
here let's move this forward.
What about the discovery Mike?
When you're going into what didyou learn through experiences
and events and what new thingscame to light? Mentors, coaches
teachers like your editor in NewYork what was revealed?
MIke Lew (18:45):
Well, I've been lucky to have lots of really powerful
mentors in my life. And some ofthe best of them just gave me
room and said, you know, you cando it, go off do it without too
much structure, or without toomuch pushing me in a specific
(19:11):
direction. I am in awe of theway directions my life has
turned. Because nothing wasplanned. I am not a planner. I
barely know when where I'm goingto have lunch today, let alone
(19:34):
planning for the future. So theway I describe it is that I walk
in one direction till I hit awall bounce off and walk in
another direction. And foundmyself on a career path which,
(19:55):
well let me tell you a story.
When I was a kid. My goal inlife was to meet everybody in
the world.
Phil Wharton (20:03):
Wow.
That's a great goal.
MIke Lew (20:06):
I thought that was, and I thought that was a
perfectly reasonable wonderfulgoal. And when I realized that,
A, it wasn't going to happen,and B, if it did happen, your
quality of the interactionwouldn't be terribly profound. I
(20:29):
was really devastated. Because Ithought, hey, this is really
what I want.
Phil Wharton (20:36):
And how old were you now? Do you have a
recollection of your age?
MIke Lew (20:40):
Eight, nine, ten. And without any conscious planning,
I found myself doing work thatcomes as close to that goal, as
I can imagine that I get totravel to these amazing places
(21:02):
I've worked in with Aboriginalcommunities in Australia
Phil Wharton (21:09):
And New Zealand.
Yeah. Asia, Africa.
MIke Lew (21:13):
Yeah. And it's, and I get to meet these extraordinary
people. Powerful, courageous,smart. Understanding both the
survivors and the people whocare about partners, family,
(21:34):
friends, and therapists.
Phil Wharton (21:37):
Advocates. Yeah, yeah.
MIke Lew (21:38):
And, you know, it's, it's kept me going, it's very
exciting to me. And I havemassive respect to the people I
get to meet and work with, and Ilearn all the time. And I
reckon if, if I stop learning,that's probably the time to
(21:59):
quit. But you know, when youreach my age, you start getting
these questions. Are you evergoing to retire? And my response
is, well, I'm doing work that Ilove, and that I'm passionate
about. And working withphenomenal people. That's on the
(22:25):
one hand, on the other hand,there's golf, and you know, I,
I'm not that interested in golf.
So as long as I'm able to, andpassionate about the work, I'll
continue to do it. And if I stopbeing passionate about it, then
I'll look for something else.
Phil Wharton (22:48):
That makes total sense. And it feels like Mike
some of these drives that urgedyou forward into the next
question, almost came as thatchild that eight or nine year
old, that wanted to meeteverybody. And now you're
bouncing against those walls orpulled in this direction, by an
(23:08):
unseen force. That's put youinto a world of powerful work,
but play, you're actuallyplaying at healing, you know, in
a very remarkable way. So
MIke Lew (23:23):
You know, I think that when we do, when we follow our
passion, we don't go too farwrong. I once I was doing a
professional training years ago,and during one of the breaks a
woman came up to me, and she wason a tear. She said, I don't
(23:44):
know how you can do this work.
It must be so difficult. It mustbe so painful, working with men
who were sexually abused asboys. And she was going on and
on and on. And when she pausedfor breath, I asked her, What do
you do? And she said, Oh, Iwork with children with cancer.
And I said, I wouldn't last fiveminutes working with kids with
(24:10):
cancer, I'd be a mess. But itwas what she did. It was her
passion. And she really didn'tthink twice about it. Yeah. I
think if you find that thingthat you don't think twice
about, because you love it.
Yeah. It's work, but it's notdebilitating.
Phil Wharton (24:31):
Yeah. Reminds me of a friend of mine when I lived
in Flagstaff, who a fireman whowas a smoke jumper. And he would
just smile about it is Eric, howdo you suit up and go into
those? He goes, Hey, it's goodwork. It's the gift of good
work. You know.
MIke Lew (24:48):
There you go.
This is so beautiful. I thinkyou know, it's like, what do you
think about external or internalmotivations for these drives
that keep you going in thisdirection? Any of those that
come to mind?
Well, I'm probably not as deep athinker as you are, but
Phil Wharton (25:13):
I don't know about that.
MIke Lew (25:15):
So I don't. I don't really analyze my motivation, I
figure, if I think it's a goodthing, and I'm able to do it, I
do it. You know, my, my family,my parents were always
(25:40):
encouraging good work, goodworks. And so I never felt held
back by their by negativejudgments. So. Again, I think
(26:02):
it was both a positive and anegative, that there was no real
body of existing informationoutright.
Phil Wharton (26:14):
That's right.
That's right.
MIke Lew (26:16):
That, you know, I didn't have a whole lot of
guidelines. I had to make my ownmistakes. But they were mine to
make. And some of thetraditional guidelines,
certainly, for work with malesurvivors of sexual abuse, some
of the existing conventionalwisdom is actually missing.
Phil Wharton (26:42):
Was flawed. So there was a gap, it was a gap
there.
MIke Lew (26:46):
And a lot of that is because a lot of the work with
men was based on work withsexual offenders. And what they
did was that they extrapolated,men who were incarcerated for
(27:09):
sexual offences, often claimedto have been abused as boys. And
what people did with that wasthat they turned it around said
that boys who were abused grewup to be offenders. And the
reality is, the vast majority ofmale survivors, both male
(27:32):
actually the vast majority ofboys or girls who are, don't
grow up to abuse. And in fact,many of them grow up to be
protectors. You know, they'vesaid, consciously or
unconsciously, I know what itfeels like to have experienced
(27:53):
this. And I'm going to dowhatever I can to make sure it
isn't done to other kids, whichis tremendous courage and
generosity to supply to kidswhat they never received.
And I think that's whywe have, I believe we have an
Phil Wharton (28:07):
Yes.
over representation of survivorsin the helping fields, who are
therapists in the medicalprofessions and police and child
protective workers. They'reputting themselves into
(28:30):
positions to protect and helpkids.
Yes. Yeah.
MIke Lew (28:36):
But I think that bite of the vampire theory, know that
a boy who is abused, is gonnagrow up to be an abuser, is one
of the things that keeps a lotof male survivors silent. That's
either the fear that they'rerepressing some, or the fear
(28:59):
that people will see them asabusers if they disclose. And
many male survivors have hadthat experience. It's happening
less than it used to. But coupleof decades ago, men could call a
rape crisis center looking forhelp and be treated as if they
(29:21):
were calling to confess. So youdon't have to have that
experience too many times toknow that it's not safe to talk
about.
Phil Wharton (29:33):
Again, another reinforcement to stay silent,
which is the one thing that willstop your progress of healing or
biggest. Mike in the fall orspeed bumps we have here on the
show. What about a lowest momentin your career or life overall?
Was there an inciting a majorevent in this?
MIke Lew (30:03):
Maybe that's yet to come. I don't know.
Phil Wharton (30:07):
That's great,
MIke Lew (30:08):
There were times when I thought you know, this is too
much for me. I get over thatfairly quickly. Because the
people I work with inspire methey energize me. I mean, it's
work.
Phil Wharton (30:28):
Yeah, absolutely.
MIke Lew (30:29):
But it's, I get to spend my life around heros and,
I don't know that many peoplecan say that. In the work I do
puts me in constant contact withheroic men, and people who care
(30:52):
about those heroic men, andthat's inspiring. And that's
energizing.
Phil Wharton (30:58):
Absolutely.
Absolutely. I was thinkingmaybe, you know, when I was
reading the book and hearing somuch about the testimonials from
the Boston hearings in theclergy, with the sexual abuse
cases and the devastation there,it was their time? Okay, maybe
(31:18):
you felt okay. I can't quitereach enough people or maybe the
Penn State uncoverings of theSandusky trial for sexual child
abuse there with the coaching?
Was there any of those periodswhen gosh, if there was if there
was more of us if we could domore?
MIke Lew (31:37):
Always. Yes, absolutely. In that sense.
Because what I believe is thatall of the major ills of society
begin with the idea of childrenas property. Because if
(32:01):
something is your property, youcan do anything you like with
it. You can sell it, you cankill it, You can harm it, you
can sexually abuse it. Becauseit's your property. And I think
if we can justify harming theweakest and most vulnerable
(32:22):
members of society, we canjustify anything. So we can
justify racism and sexism andhomophobia, anti semitism, anti
Islam. And we can justify rapingthe planet, and we can justify
war andGreed through our greed. Yeah,
(32:42):
yes. Yeah.
Yeah.
So it starts with the kids. Andthat's huge. Now, and we need
many more people recognizingthis and working on this, and
I'm just one guy. I'm anordinary, you know, I'm a
(33:05):
working class kid who is a childof an immigrant family. And I
was the first person in myfamily to go to college. No, so
from time to time I kind of lookaround and say now how did this
happen? How did I get here? Andcan I handle this? And
(33:29):
fortunately, there are more andmore people who are sharing this
vision that we have to starttreating children with respect.
We have to listen. And we haveto shine a light on the abuse so
that we can end it.
Phil Wharton (33:52):
That's right.
Yeah, I love this piece youwrote it was an Op-ed piece.
After the Penn State childhoodsexual abuse case broke. The
someone on the New York DailyNews, I think team asked you to
write this piece and it was youtitled it Believe Them. And I
just, you know, so powerful, youknow, speaking to the need to
(34:15):
increase or eliminate statute oflimitations on prosecution of a
child abuse, sex cases,survivors cannot be expected to
speak out until they are readyand able to that, that timing.
And so you know, no wonder thatsurvivors especially males
maintain their silence for somany years. Most of my clients
range in their lives was 20'sthrough 60's. It is unusual for
(34:38):
males in their teens and 20's tobegin to address these issues
and begin a difficult and oftenpainful journey of healing. And
just such a powerful piece thatunfortunately, they chose not to
run but. On the anvil if you Ithink we recovered the rollback,
because there's nothing youwould do differently. I mean,
(35:01):
you're pulled in thisdirections. And you know, maybe
it's the hand of God or whateveryou call it, you know, the
higher power that's filling thisgap. It's so needed. What would
you think about an event ordecision that forged you a
defining moment that shaped your
MIke Lew (35:21):
Just just to back up a second. I'm not sure there
destiny?
aren't things I wouldn't do? Iwouldn't do different.
Phil Wharton (35:30):
Oh, very good, good.
MIke Lew (35:34):
I don't spend a whole lot of time focusing on the
woulda, coulda, shoulda.
Phil Wharton (35:38):
Got it.
MIke Lew (35:40):
There's too much work to be done.
Phil Wharton (35:42):
Excellent.
Excellent. Excellent.
That makes sense.
MIke Lew (35:46):
That said, repeat your question.
Phil Wharton (35:48):
Yes. Thank you. On the anvil, what about an event
or decision that forged you adefining moment that shaped your
MIke Lew (35:56):
I'm not sure that I could tease one formative moment
destiny?
(36:16):
out. I think that everythingthat we experience contributes
to our our arsenal, ourunderstanding. And I don't think
anything gets lost. I mean, youknow, the years I spent as an
academic, I learned a lot. Thatwasn't the lost time even though
(36:40):
I'm not an academic and longer.
But also, I've worked in afactory. I learned things
working in a factory.
Phil Wharton (36:48):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
MIke Lew (36:49):
So, you know, as long as you can extract useful
information and experience thatall contributes to forming who
you are. And I don't know thatpeople really have one of those
(37:10):
major AHA, epiphany moments. Atleast I didn't, you know, it's
it was more of a gradualevolving, of understanding.
Hopefully, now, some maturityand some more and more openness.
Phil Wharton (37:34):
Yeah.
MIke Lew (37:35):
Yeah.
All these layers of experience.
Yeah, that's created this,pulling you in this direction,
created this idea of how you cannow as an impatient as a self
proclaimed impatient person,right, be such an amazing active
listener, and ability toidentify and be with these
heroes, you know.
(37:56):
But the experts, I mean,basically, you know, if I want
to learn something, I go to theexperts. And in the case of the
work I do, the experts are thesurvivors. I'll say to somebody
in the first meeting. You'velived with you for 50 years.
(38:18):
I've known you for 10 minutes.
Who's the expert here?
That's right. I love that.
That's so appropriate. Yeah.
You know,and I think part of the learning
of patience is to get pastdefensiveness. And I'll say to
people I work with. You don'thave to trust me. You know, that
(38:46):
making trust a prereq. Aprerequisite for a person whose
trust has been damaged. Doesn'tmake sense. In fact, by the time
people completely trust me, ourwork is pretty well done.
Phil Wharton (39:07):
And I love I love what you said at first, if I
tell you, you have to trust me,walk away.
MIke Lew (39:13):
Yeah. Absolutely. You know, it's not important that
you trust me it's important thatI be trustworthy. Whether or not
you trust me. And that the firsttime I get defensive, when you
disagree with again, walk away.
Because, you know, I expectpeople to test me I expect
(39:40):
people to be wary. Why wouldn'tthey know and I don't have all
the information. Part of theprocess of healing is giving me
that information is figuring outa safe way to do that. And one
(40:01):
of the things that I tellprofessionals when I do a
training is the secret of doinga really good group or workshop
for male survivors that I, ittook me years to learn it, I
(40:22):
just share it indiscriminatelynow. That is you create safety.
And then you get the hell out ofthe way. And to the degree that
you manage that, it's a doublebenefit for me. The male
survivors accomplish the mostimpressive, brilliant, creative
(40:46):
things. And I get the credit forit.
Phil Wharton (40:56):
If you're an egoist, you'd have a field day.
No, I love that fact that yousaid look, in these male groups
in these sexual abuse recoverygroups, especially like the
retreats, the compassion,there's a palpability have the
energy, of that compassion, ofthat transference of that
(41:17):
sharing that release of thesilence and isolation
dissipation.
MIke Lew (41:24):
And of course, well, I, I'm, I've become more and
more convinced over the years,that isolation is the enemy of
recovery. That abuse takes placein isolation and recovery has to
happen in thecompany of others.
But it's tricky. Becauseisolation can feel like safety.
(41:46):
I'm by myself, nobody's gonnamess with me. But, but it's not
safety, because it allows all ofthe abuse messages, the
negativity, hopelessness, thehelplessness, to replay like a
tape loop, without anything oranyone to contradict them. And
(42:06):
nobody, can understand a malesurvivor better than another
male survivor, which is whygroup and workshops are so
essential. I had one guy in oneof my groups who kept saying,
you know, in most of my life, Ifeel like, I'm speaking a
(42:28):
different language than everyoneelse. And I come to a group and
everyone understands.
Phil Wharton (42:36):
That's beautiful.
Yeah. Yeah. In your journey now,Mike, what's most important to
you and the work now? What doesthe road ahead look like for
you? And Thom, with Next StepCounseling and what's next?
MIke Lew (42:54):
Well, one of the things is encouraging more and
more people who are interestedin doing this work. You know,
I'm not likely to be around toomany more decades. And I think
(43:18):
the work has to continue. And itcan't be dependent on me, it
can't be dependent on Thom. Ithas, you know, there have to be
people committed to doing it.
All over the world. Andspecifically, people have to be
trained to do it within theirown communities. So, I mean, as
I've said, I say I've workedwith Aboriginal groups in
(43:43):
Australia. But the mosteffective work would be by
Aboriginal workers. However,that's defined. You know, I've
worked with Latinos and AfricanAmericans. Yeah. But they don't
(44:05):
come. They don't show up indroves. Why would they? Why
would they trust this old whiteguy? So the more people who, you
know, who take this on withintheir own communities, the
better I think I know when I'veworked, I remember one time. I
(44:28):
did a very large training in NewMexico for Native American
groups. And there were peoplefrom all sorts of tribal
backgrounds from all over,mostly the western United
States. And what they wereanticipating, was this old white
(44:50):
guy was going to show up andtell them what to do. And what I
asked at the beginning was Isaid, you're an ancient culture.
You've learned a lot. Tell mewhat you've learned. Tell me
what works for you. And tell mewhat you still need. And they
(45:14):
weren't used to hearing thatfrom an old white guy. Right.
But what I've learned, withoutexception, anywhere in the world
I've worked with any group I'veworked with, is if you approach
people with respect, theyrespond. I mean, that's, this
(45:38):
isn't rocket science. Treatpeople with respect, and they
will respond.
Phil Wharton (45:50):
It's being human.
The human experience. Oh, I lovethis. And Mike, if you look back
in the slipstream of your lifeand think about any parting gems
of advice or wisdom you'd liketo leave with us today?
MIke Lew (46:09):
Well, I think that what I'd like to say to
survivors, and I guess to peoplecare about survivors as well, is
that I know that recovery ispossible. That it's real. It
matters. And it's possible. AndI know this is true, because
(46:30):
I've seen hundreds and hundredsof survivors, male and female,
all around the world, activelyengaged in the recovery process,
actively making changes in theirown lives, in their families and
in their communities. So youknow, it's a hard job, turning
(46:54):
these negativities around. Butthe results, the results are
worth the effort. Changehappens. And the change is
profound.
Phil Wharton (47:08):
Yeah, and please, folks, I mean, go out and get
this updated and revisededition. I have it right here on
my desk. And it's just been sucha blessing for me as I start my
journey. Victims No Longer, TheClassic Guide for Men recovering
from Sexual Child Abuse, HarperCollins book, I think you
revised it in 2004. Mike, andthen in the other book that I
(47:33):
haven't read yet, but I lookforward to it Leaping Upon
Mountains, Men ProclaimingVictory over Sexual Child Abuse
is a 1999 book, from SmallWonder, and those
MIke Lew (47:44):
that's at the moment, that's only available as a
Phil Wharton (47:48):
As a as an Ebook now, okay, in that in that text
is an Ebook. And we'll have allthat in the liner notes of the
show. And please go to thewebsite for Mike and Tom in
their, in their counseling groupis www.nextstepcounseling.org.
And we'll also have that as alink and to keep up on all the
(48:10):
workshops coming up and and alsothe men's groups that are
online, isn't that right Mike?
Zoom groups are going on allover the world. And as the world
opens back up, post pandemic,hopefully, you'll be able to go
back and start training thepeople in the locales and
different countries and all overthe, our country on this
(48:31):
powerful work.
MIke Lew (48:34):
It's starting slowly.
We have a couple of workshopsset up in Pennsylvania, we have
one scheduled in the UK in July,and a professional training in
the UK. So we're we're comingback slowly. But you know,
things have been pretty crazythe last two, three years
Phil Wharton (48:53):
Really crazy.
Yeah, it's a blessing, you'reable to reach people online. And
that's obviously not the same asbeing in the room with them and
being able to, to be rightthere. So, Mike, it's just been
such a wonderful blessing tohave you on intrinsic drive. And
thank you so much for your timeand your service to the world
and for men suffering fromsexual child abuse and women all
(49:18):
around the world. Mike, thankyou.
MIke Lew (49:23):
Thank you.
Phil Wharton (49:25):
Thanks for being with us. We appreciate you
opting in, subscribing, andreviewing us, for thumbing us up
and following us on socials.
Liking us. We like you. Drop usa note. Tell us what stories
move you for books, videos,resources and more information.
(49:47):
Visit us atwww.whartonhealth.com forward
slash shop wharton health, andbe sure to join us for the next
episode of intrinsic drive.
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