October 19, 2023 • 7 mins
The devastating pogrom of Israeli Civilians on October 7th has effecting millions throughout the world. The ensuing violence and vitriol across the world has deepened that pain. What can those of us facing explicit trauma and/or vicarious trauma do to keep on going? In this short conversation Kim and Jacob reflect on their experiences in a way that they hope will be helpful for others.
Stay safe. Be well. Please seek out help if you are struggling.
Stay safe. Be well. Please seek out help if you are struggling.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey Kim, hey Jacob.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
What's on your mind?
Speaker 1 (00:07):
So after the massacre in Israel on October 7th, we
tried to record an episode totalk about nonsense, I think.
I think at least it was not totalk about nonsense, but it was
me blabbering to you about whatI was processing.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
No, that's not what happened.
That's not what happened.
What?
Speaker 1 (00:24):
happened.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
So understandably so.
After the massacre on October7th came in and you were like
Kim, I can't stop crying and Ihave to process this, and I feel
like just talking this out withyou could potentially be really
helpful.
And I was like all right, let'sgo for it.
So that's what we.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
That was the conversation which we recorded,
which I had thought maybe wewould publish, but we're
definitely not publishing that.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yeah, not that there's anything wrong with it.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
It's just not for this, whatever, yeah, okay, this
is what I think I've realizedsince then.
Yeah, I think I wasexperiencing trauma.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Yeah, you know what we call that.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
What.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Vicarious trauma.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
I don't know if it's vicarious.
I mean, it isn't isn'tvicarious.
We can maybe touch that onbecause I just felt personally
attacked.
You know, like these are peoplewho want to.
If they could kill me, theywould kill me, they would, yeah,
so vicarious.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
I think it is.
I don't want to get into theweeds of it, that's fine.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
But I I.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
But you're not there and you're not experiencing it,
but you do feel a level oftrauma knowing that A that's
happening to other people andyou're taking in all kinds of
imagery and and things around itand I think that I think that
(01:54):
it's very important to that itvery well, because you are.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Jewish, that if you were there, that it would very
likely happen to you as well.
I think, if we're going to,yeah, if we're going to call it
vicarious trauma which againI'll process a little bit, I
don't know how the terms apply.
I'm not a trauma therapist, butyou are, you're trained in
trauma, yeah, yeah, and soyou're saying I'm experiencing
vicarious trauma.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Yeah, I think that this is a big part of what's
happening for you, for sure.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Of which, I agree, there is definitely a high level
of vicarious trauma.
I think there's there's othertraumas going on here, but this
is the point.
This is what I want to talk toyou about.
I think I was experiencing alevel of processing which could
be described as like a freezeresponse to that trauma,
vicarious or not.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Right.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
And and so like.
To my understanding, there'sfour responses to trauma or
stress.
Right, there's so fight, flight, freeze and phone.
And I was in like a freezepattern, which makes me feel
like I didn't have agency and Ireally didn't know what to do.
You know, like I'm not, there'sno one to confront, there's
nowhere to go.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, it's just the experience.
There's no way to like fix it,fix the situation.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
But this is how I think I ended up fixing it for
myself.
It just took a while to realizewhat I needed to do, and that
was figure out.
What did it mean for me tofight and feel my own agency?
Yeah, or feel your own agencyvia fighting right yeah and and
the ways in which I did that wasI Reached out to people in my
community to just feel connectedto them.
I I also.
(03:14):
Why do you?
Why do you?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
think you did that like?
What do you think connectingwith people in your community
did for you?
Like, name it.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
I'm trying to think.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Can I tell you what I did for you?
Yeah it made you not feel soalone.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Yes, which the freeze response inherently made me
feel alone because I wasn'tconnecting with other people
right and other ways in which Ifeel like I engage in like
quote-unquote, like, like, likefight or agency was to Tell
people I love them, which iswhat you're saying, is the
connection.
You know, that's a form of afight tell people I love them
(03:58):
and by me connecting with them,I wanted them to also feel like
they weren't alone.
And each of the four Stress ortrauma responses that we just,
we just named, each one of themcould be appropriated at a
certain point.
There's times where we have torun, there's times we have to
freeze, there's times we have tophone, and the time was after
fight.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Well, here's the thing when you're experiencing a
trauma response like your, Imean that that part of your
brain, right your prefrontalcortex, goes offline.
So there isn't really a part ofyou that's going.
Maybe I ought to stick aroundfor this, Of course maybe I
ought to run right, but I thinkwhat was?
I think what you're reallynaming is that, like your actual
Trauma response was like youjust froze.
Yes and then, as you started tomove through that right, your
(04:36):
prefrontal cortex started tocome back online.
Then you started to go Okay,how can I feel better?
Yes how can I move through thisincredible pain and discomfort
that I'm experiencing?
Speaker 1 (04:52):
And that was with tapping into my agency and doing
what I know how to do, which isuse my words to connect with
others.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
That's me, that's a personal thing and I would say
that that's that.
I would say that's kind ofuniversal right, as if you're a
human being and you havelanguage.
Yeah, that's a big, that's abig tool for us.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
What are?
What are other ways that youmaybe have seen clients engage
in their own agency to movethrough trauma?
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Oh, Gosh music, listening to music, even being
creative, lots of people findsome comfort in, in books, even
even say what we want aboutsocial media.
But social media, you know,used for good, can be incredibly
helpful, right, because it kindof goes back to what you were,
(05:33):
what we were talking about, younot feeling alone, you know
you're reaching out to yourfriends, you're reaching out to
family, and Sometimes we justkind of need to feel like we're
not alone in this.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Yeah, yeah, and I truly believe that that in this
moment we are not alone, but weneed to just continue to Remind
ourselves and remind others thatwe are together, to not let it
be, but to engage in thatconnection.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Yep, and sometimes, you know, working for that
connection can be hard, but it'sworth it right.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
We, we really do.
I think.
As human beings, we are createdfor connection and I think that
it it does, it can really helpfill our cup.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
So, so, this is just what I'd like to say me to wrap
out, to end up this like littleMoment yeah if anyone is
experiencing trauma explicitlyor vicarious trauma.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Yeah um.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Seek mental health Counseling therapy yeah, get
help into whatever fashion thatthat will serve you and figure
out how to engage in your ownagency and give yourself some
slack to know that you're, thatyou're processing like a normal
human response to fear.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Normative normative normative.
Look at me like nitpicking you.
Yeah to know that, like you donot have to do it alone.
No, no should and it doesn'tnecessarily meet have to be a
mental health professional,obviously someone who is
traumatized, ideal and also, youknow, just just Finding
(07:08):
yourself, your community and andbeing a part of that in
whatever way you can yeah, socare for yourself, care for
others and and Everyone shouldbe well I.
Hey Kim, hey Jacob.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
What's on your mind?
Speaker 1 (00:07):
So after the massacre in Israel on October 7th, we
tried to record an episode totalk about nonsense, I think.
I think at least it was not totalk about nonsense, but it was
me blabbering to you about whatI was processing.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
No, that's not what happened.
That's not what happened.
What?
Speaker 1 (00:24):
happened.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
So understandably so.
After the massacre on October7th came in and you were like
Kim, I can't stop crying and Ihave to process this, and I feel
like just talking this out withyou could potentially be really
helpful.
And I was like all right, let'sgo for it.
So that's what we.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
That was the conversation which we recorded,
which I had thought maybe wewould publish, but we're
definitely not publishing that.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yeah, not that there's anything wrong with it.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
It's just not for this, whatever, yeah, okay, this
is what I think I've realizedsince then.
Yeah, I think I wasexperiencing trauma.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Yeah, you know what we call that.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
What.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Vicarious trauma.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
I don't know if it's vicarious.
I mean, it isn't isn'tvicarious.
We can maybe touch that onbecause I just felt personally
attacked.
You know, like these are peoplewho want to.
If they could kill me, theywould kill me, they would, yeah,
so vicarious.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
I think it is.
I don't want to get into theweeds of it, that's fine.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
But I I.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
But you're not there and you're not experiencing it,
but you do feel a level oftrauma knowing that A that's
happening to other people andyou're taking in all kinds of
imagery and and things around itand I think that I think that
(01:54):
it's very important to that itvery well, because you are.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Jewish, that if you were there, that it would very
likely happen to you as well.
I think, if we're going to,yeah, if we're going to call it
vicarious trauma which againI'll process a little bit, I
don't know how the terms apply.
I'm not a trauma therapist, butyou are, you're trained in
trauma, yeah, yeah, and soyou're saying I'm experiencing
vicarious trauma.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Yeah, I think that this is a big part of what's
happening for you, for sure.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Of which, I agree, there is definitely a high level
of vicarious trauma.
I think there's there's othertraumas going on here, but this
is the point.
This is what I want to talk toyou about.
I think I was experiencing alevel of processing which could
be described as like a freezeresponse to that trauma,
vicarious or not.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Right.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
And and so like.
To my understanding, there'sfour responses to trauma or
stress.
Right, there's so fight, flight, freeze and phone.
And I was in like a freezepattern, which makes me feel
like I didn't have agency and Ireally didn't know what to do.
You know, like I'm not, there'sno one to confront, there's
nowhere to go.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, it's just the experience.
There's no way to like fix it,fix the situation.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
But this is how I think I ended up fixing it for
myself.
It just took a while to realizewhat I needed to do, and that
was figure out.
What did it mean for me tofight and feel my own agency?
Yeah, or feel your own agencyvia fighting right yeah and and
the ways in which I did that wasI Reached out to people in my
community to just feel connectedto them.
I I also.
(03:14):
Why do you?
Why do you?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
think you did that like?
What do you think connectingwith people in your community
did for you?
Like, name it.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
I'm trying to think.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Can I tell you what I did for you?
Yeah it made you not feel soalone.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Yes, which the freeze response inherently made me
feel alone because I wasn'tconnecting with other people
right and other ways in which Ifeel like I engage in like
quote-unquote, like, like, likefight or agency was to Tell
people I love them, which iswhat you're saying, is the
connection.
You know, that's a form of afight tell people I love them
(03:58):
and by me connecting with them,I wanted them to also feel like
they weren't alone.
And each of the four Stress ortrauma responses that we just,
we just named, each one of themcould be appropriated at a
certain point.
There's times where we have torun, there's times we have to
freeze, there's times we have tophone, and the time was after
fight.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Well, here's the thing when you're experiencing a
trauma response like your, Imean that that part of your
brain, right your prefrontalcortex, goes offline.
So there isn't really a part ofyou that's going.
Maybe I ought to stick aroundfor this, Of course maybe I
ought to run right, but I thinkwhat was?
I think what you're reallynaming is that, like your actual
Trauma response was like youjust froze.
Yes and then, as you started tomove through that right, your
(04:36):
prefrontal cortex started tocome back online.
Then you started to go Okay,how can I feel better?
Yes how can I move through thisincredible pain and discomfort
that I'm experiencing?
Speaker 1 (04:52):
And that was with tapping into my agency and doing
what I know how to do, which isuse my words to connect with
others.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
That's me, that's a personal thing and I would say
that that's that.
I would say that's kind ofuniversal right, as if you're a
human being and you havelanguage.
Yeah, that's a big, that's abig tool for us.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
What are?
What are other ways that youmaybe have seen clients engage
in their own agency to movethrough trauma?
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Oh, Gosh music, listening to music, even being
creative, lots of people findsome comfort in, in books, even
even say what we want aboutsocial media.
But social media, you know,used for good, can be incredibly
helpful, right, because it kindof goes back to what you were,
(05:33):
what we were talking about, younot feeling alone, you know
you're reaching out to yourfriends, you're reaching out to
family, and Sometimes we justkind of need to feel like we're
not alone in this.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Yeah, yeah, and I truly believe that that in this
moment we are not alone, but weneed to just continue to Remind
ourselves and remind others thatwe are together, to not let it
be, but to engage in thatconnection.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Yep, and sometimes, you know, working for that
connection can be hard, but it'sworth it right.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
We, we really do.
I think.
As human beings, we are createdfor connection and I think that
it it does, it can really helpfill our cup.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
So, so, this is just what I'd like to say me to wrap
out, to end up this like littleMoment yeah if anyone is
experiencing trauma explicitlyor vicarious trauma.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Yeah um.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Seek mental health Counseling therapy yeah, get
help into whatever fashion thatthat will serve you and figure
out how to engage in your ownagency and give yourself some
slack to know that you're, thatyou're processing like a normal
human response to fear.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Normative normative normative.
Look at me like nitpicking you.
Yeah to know that, like you donot have to do it alone.
No, no should and it doesn'tnecessarily meet have to be a
mental health professional,obviously someone who is
traumatized, ideal and also, youknow, just just Finding
(07:08):
yourself, your community and andbeing a part of that in
whatever way you can yeah, socare for yourself, care for
others and and Everyone shouldbe well I.
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