August 8, 2023 • 42 mins
Ever wondered what would happen if you checked out of the rat race and went searching for the meaning of life? What would it be like to go from the bustling streets of Manhattan to the holy city of Jerusalem? This is the story of our co-host, Jacob Miller. In this episode, Kimberley Dobbs unwraps Jacob's story and his unique path that led to the world of therapy.
As we walk you through a transformational journey from Manhattan to Israel, we delve into Jacob's evolving interests that led from psychology research at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center to an inspired life cultivated at Machon Yaakov, a Yeshiva in the Har Nof neighborhood of Jerusalem. After leaving Machon Yaakov, Jacob felt his life would be best spent helping others become their best selves via talk therapy. Get ready for an enlightening episode of Intuitive Choices that is bound to transform your perspective on life.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey everybody, I'm Kimberly Dobbs.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
And I'm Jacob Miller.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
And we'd like to welcome you to another episode
of Intuitive Choices.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Kim and I are mental health therapists working in
Philadelphia.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
But wait, jacob, that's not all we are.
I mean, I'm blind and you're anOrthodox too.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Yes, kim, that's correct.
That's why this podcast isinteresting.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
But what really makes this podcast interesting is
that each week we invite a guestto speak about how their own
intuitive choices have led themto live a more meaningful life.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
We hope that this conversation encourages you to
make meaningful choices in yourown life.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Alright, off we go.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Let's do it.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Hey Jacob.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Hi Kim.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
So today on our podcast Intuitive Choices, we're
going to get to know you alittle.
Okay, how does that feel?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
I'm nervous.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Really yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Why?
Because I just asking myself alot of questions, like I want
our audience to get a sense ofwho I am, to see if my input
would be like useful to them inour podcast and like they'd be
interested in me and the kind ofquestions I have to ask.
(01:15):
But I'm also like asking myselflike there is a fine line
between, like sharing thingsthat are important for people to
know and things that I want tokeep private, and I don't know
where that line is, but I alsodon't want to hide anything, so
I'm just going to go for it.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Okay, there's always going to be.
We can look it up, but there'salways going to be things about
ourselves that are not foreverybody to hear.
They're just ours.
Good, let's move into the modeof.
I think how important it is forour audience to know who we are
.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
That's really what we're doing here, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Right, and so the place I'd like to start with you
is I personally don't believethat we end up doing this kind
of work.
Mental health therapy, whetheryou are a psychologist, whether
you are a mental healthcounselor, social worker,
marriage, family therapist,whatever it is even like you
know that I don't think that weend up here on accident doing
(02:15):
this kind of work.
I believe that we, eachindividual person, has like the
journey of what led us to becomea therapist.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
It's a calling.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
I believe it's a calling.
Do you believe it's a calling?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
I think, if you're lucky, it's a calling, I think
some people will end up beingtherapists because they, you
know, I don't know why, butthere's a lot of us where it's a
calling and that's what avocation is Like.
That's what vocation means,like vocal Like.
Oh, I love that.
I just remember doing my firstday of my master's program.
Yeah, one of the professors Ican't remember who like, asked
(02:54):
like.
Who here is like, the personwho all their friends come to
them for advice and, likeeveryone in the room raised
their hands like oh, that wascool.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Yeah, yeah, that was cool.
Cool Because why?
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Because what was that moment for you?
I think when you're the kind ofperson who your friends all
come to you for advice and evenyou have certain people you go
to for advice, there's only likeone of those people per friend
group often.
You know what I mean.
So like we don't, we know youdon't meet the other ones who
are?
Like the nodes of advice givingand like solace and counsel
(03:28):
right.
So it was cool that we were allin one place and we all wanted
to get better at this gift andskill of like knowing how to be
there for someone.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Okay, so what was your journey then?
Speaker 2 (03:41):
There's something in my core that.
I think one of my purposes inlife is to comfort people, but
not to comfort them just to, youknow, feel good in the moment.
It's to comfort and theninspire to keep on going and I
see that as like being anadvisor, as a counselor, as a
(04:01):
therapist.
I lost sight of that over time.
I think a lot of people youknow their families want them to
talk about your family, so yourfamily and your family growing
up.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Maybe there was some kind of messaging that, hey,
you're gonna, you're gonna,you're gonna do this, you're
gonna do that.
Right, what was the messaging?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
The messaging was I loved nature and I loved science
.
And I think my parents,especially my mom, like locked,
locked onto that.
And like you're gonna be ascientist of some kind, but
there's also like a big artisticcomponent to who I am.
Okay, like a gravitationtowards the humanities.
(04:48):
That was always like nice likeit was encouraged my family to
like art and music, but itwasn't like what anyone was
going to do.
And why is that we had a sensethat we did not have as much
financially as the people aroundus.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
But but we were capable of.
I was capable of making moremoney than my parents had and so
I had an obligation to do soand that kind of made me lose
sight of like the morehumanities side of me and I
shifted towards sciences.
So, like I loved biology, Iloved nature, I thought I was
going to do something in likethe hard sciences at some point.
But I actually don't like mathor sitting in a room by yourself
(05:25):
and looking at slides and yeah.
It just wasn't enough for me.
I have like a real deep driveTo see beauty in the world and I
think the world is beautiful.
Okay, but to be a biologist waslike not for me.
I did not want to be a doctorbecause it seemed like way too
hard and I didn't have thediscipline.
And that kind of strangelyculminated my senior year of
(05:52):
high school of like I Wanted tostudy neuroscience.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Oh, oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
I had seen a Ted talk by via Sramashandran, which I
really in sees a fantasticneuroscientist out in California
.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
I wonder if we can put that like that link in the
show.
That's not great yeah he'sreally influential.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
He's the one who, like, developed, like, like the
mirror therapy to get rid ofphantom limbs.
Oh, wow he did a lot of otherstuff.
He also happens to be an arthistorian, art critic.
Okay fuses those worldstogether.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
But I just so.
This person really must haveresonated with you.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Yeah, it was like an 18 minute Ted talk and I was
like I am interested ineverything I like art and
science and music and I was likeI want to study the thing that
understands the world, which isthe brain.
Right, like I'm in.
Okay, my parents were happy.
My mom was happy because, likeall neuroscience, like that
sounds like Really fancy and itsounds like something's gonna
make a lot of money, so that'sgood for you.
(06:50):
And then I started college atMuhlenburg College in Allentown
and Ready to study neuroscience,I was like what it was like one
of the first people in my yearto declare neuroscience, when
right up to Dr Jeremy, to Sarah,and became my advisor.
Okay, I'm very grateful to him.
He Was sitting at thecrossroads of neuroscience,
(07:15):
philosophy and religion and Justto see how beautiful the, the
human nervous system, is in themind and brain.
Yeah that can have these variousdifferent experiences which are
held in our physicality by likeminute reactions between
(07:35):
different chemicals and whatever.
And I'm not gonna go into thedetails of it because, honestly,
been like a decade and I don'tremember as well, but I just
fell in love with neuroscienceand I I blasted through the
program and.
I finished all my corerequirements when I was like a
sophomore, okay, and then I hadlike the another half of college
(07:57):
that I had to fill that spacewith okay and because my my
drives, my educational interests, whatever led me to philosophy,
and so I have a bachelor's inneuroscience and philosophy, and
my philosophy really focused onPhenomenology, which is the
(08:19):
study of how things appear to usand what we learn about them.
So which melds very well withneuroscience, because
neuroscience wants to know howto I Mean how to neurons fire.
So it can be like everything.
Anything is like Likeneuromuscular issues or whatever
.
Or it can be like literally howdoes our brain hold
consciousness?
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Along the way also had a religion minor that I
couldn't declare because theywanted me to pay an extra $5,000
, but I did the coursework.
Oh god, I'm not bitter aboutthat at all.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
No, not at all.
I can't hear it, even in theleast.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
No.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Well, I'm gonna, I want to, I want to just circle
back really quickly to so,neuroscience, philosophy,
religion, yeah, mental healthcounselor.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Mm-hmm, I Would.
I wanted to know whatconsciousness is at.
When I graduated college, Iwanted to know what
consciousness is and how we canhave a conscious experience that
is linked to our body.
That was all I wanted to dowhen I graduated.
I Arrogantly thought I couldbecome a consciousness
(09:25):
researcher.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Why is that arrogant?
Speaker 2 (09:28):
because those jobs like don't really exist and it's
not really so respectedAcademically at least it really
wasn't when I was graduating.
I don't think if the fieldschanged since then.
And then Dr Tassara recommendedthat and I wasn't ready for a
PhD program Like I had a lot ofmaturing left to do and stuff
and dr Tassara recommended I geta job in a psych lab that works
(09:50):
with human subjects okaythere's like a stepping ground
to get to a consciousness laband I applied to 40 jobs in
Philadelphia because I wanted tostay in my hometown.
I did not get a single messageback from any job and I was
cleaning Tables at a physicaltherapy clinic outside of
(10:10):
Philadelphia.
I was making $10 an hour,living at home part-time, okay,
and I was very miserable and sadand reached out to as many
people as I could in my networkand I had a friend from college
who had a friend who worked atSloan Kettering Cancer Center,
memorial Sloan Kettering CancerCenter in Manhattan.
(10:33):
Okay and she called me up andsaid there was an opening in her
lab.
It was a lab studying howCancer patients quit smoking and
stay quit After they're donetheir treatment.
I got the job Okay and I movedto New York and I worked there
for two years in this lab as aresearch assistant and a
(10:55):
recruiter to these psychologicalstudies and I just saw such
amazing, amazing things in howpeople With like stage 4 cancer
or even like stage 1 cancer likeit is important for me to quit
smoking Because I want to provemyself I can do this right.
Some said I want to prove myselfto myself I can do this before
(11:15):
I die, and it was like almost aguarantee that they would.
They would pass and they justwanted to assert their will in
the world before they.
They were gone and Some peoplewere just like the cancer was
enough of a wake-up for them tobe like.
This is stupid.
I'm like killing myself.
I actually see how much I wantto live now and I don't want to
smoke anymore.
Yeah and I was just so inspired.
(11:36):
I was spending hours likeInterview, like doing like a
what's called qualitativeinterviews yeah, just asking
people about how they were intheir process, like what was
going well for them, what wasdifficult for them, and these
conversations were just soincredibly meaningful to me and
also like the cool conversationswas having other people in the
(11:57):
department, and theconversations became more
important to me than theresearch and the work.
And then I Was letting some ofmy duties slip a little bit and
we had a, a conversation with mysupervisors like this is not
the right fit for you, is it?
And I was like no, I don't wantto do research and I can't sit
in this room that has no windowsfor another year.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Wow.
And so we parted ways butcritical, like a critical piece
to the story, at least in myopinion, is what.
I don't know how aware of ityou were at the time, but
Recognizing how much Meaning you, how meaningful conversations.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Yeah, we're to you, that's all that's.
That's always been my greatestpleasure and I just wanted to
know what it meant to be aperson.
I guess it's important to saythat I was in, as I would say to
my dad, and I was like all thetime I would tell my dad from
time was really young, like Ialways had friends, but I never
felt like part of like the groupthat I want to be a part of.
(13:05):
For a long time I was reallyalienated.
I Like went from a privateJewish school to a public school
from sixth grade to seventhgrade.
I just never fully knew how tofit in anywhere.
I was okay and I would say tomy dad I just like I do not know
how to be, I just wish I knewhow to be.
(13:26):
And he was like it's gonna workout, like as soon as you're an
adult, like you're gonna be fine.
It's just like he's essentiallytell me, like my mind was too
old for a kid, like I didn'tknow how to.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Be a kid so I want to .
I want to just kind of circleback to the moment when you
realized what do you have thatconversation with your
supervisor?
Okay, this isn't a good fit forme.
I Love meet the meaningfulconversations I'm having.
I do not like research at all.
Yeah um, and then what?
(14:01):
Because I know, after SloanKettering, you took off to
Jerusalem.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Oh, there was one more step which is really
important.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Oh, thank you for bringing us back.
Yeah, so what was the stepbetween those two?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
things.
So my third year in Manhattan.
I left MSK and I worked for asmall healthcare startup and one
of the my friend who got me toMSK she had left to help start
this other company.
She was their second employee,my third maybe, and I was the
fourth, and we were helping kidsget access to Medicaid
(14:33):
programming in New York City andthat job paid me way more money
than MSK did and I also had somuch more free time.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Wow, starting to when we talk about, you know,
recognizing that work-lifebalance, and also write this
idea of being if you are goingto work right, it is your time
in exchange for money.
Yeah, you know, the idea isthat it not be soul crushing.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Yeah, which was really important for me Also.
It's important for me, it wasimportant for me to be in a job
where I, like, reallyappreciated my boss and saw my
boss as someone who was like anups not that my boss's MSK
wasn't upstanding, it's that wasactively cultivating me as an
employee or as whatevertrajectory I was on like sort of
(15:29):
like a boss slash mentor iswhat.
I was striving for.
I actually really liked thesecond job.
They gave me a lot of autonomyand really respected my opinion,
and so that was like sort oflike a boost in self-confidence
after I felt like I was a reallylow place after leaving that
job at MSK.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
So what, then, inspired you to move to
Jerusalem?
Speaker 2 (15:49):
In college.
I dropped a lot of stuff when Iwas living in New York.
From my first year living inNew York, I was no longer on the
track team, I no longer had myacademic course load and I had a
little bit of money for thefirst time and I was like having
a real good time in Manhattanwith, like my college friends,
you were like cut and loose.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
cut and loose got it.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
And after a year of that I was like I am tired of
being hungover.
Too many of my Sundays arewasted being hungover.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
But here's the thing.
Do you realize, like I guessthat let me ask this as a
question.
I know you're tired of beinghungover.
You can look back and go.
All of my you know theseSundays were wasted.
You know my time was beingwasted recuperating from
drinking the night before, butlike what happened in you that
(16:43):
got you to wake up.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
I was very inspired in college, studying
Confucianism under Dr StevenCattino, about how beautiful the
human being is and the humanexperience.
Not that Confucius ever saidanything like this, but there's
a sentiment I got from studyingConfucianism that like the
reason you do the right thing isself-evident, like there's no,
it's not because of social good,it's not because it makes you
feel good, it's like a humanbeing knows the difference
(17:07):
between right and wrong andyou're supposed to do it.
And that was my guidingprinciple and I just felt like I
wasn't doing the right thing.
Not that it was like, not thatit wasn't inherently the right
thing, but it wasn't right forme.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
And this goes back, you know, sort of again, like
this underlying theme of whatyou know, your intuition, right,
that that's what I would callit.
You don't call it will right,but this idea that like
something in you, this gutfeeling was, like something's
not aligning.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Something right, would you?
Does that resonate with you ornot?
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Absolutely Okay.
But I didn't know where to gonext and I started going to a
synagogue that was like nearishto me.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
It just occurred to me is how, a little bit all over
the place, your Jewish identityis.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Yeah, I don't know how to fit into a box and I
always do the thing that likeresonates with me the most.
Like I won't, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Just in general.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
We're talking generally speaking, yeah, but,
but it's interesting.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
So so Rabbi Bodner said Yep, it was a Friday night
service, it was really nice.
And he said well, you know, youcan come tomorrow morning,
saturday services, and I teach aclass on Tuesdays.
And I just did everything, andthat was a year of me and Rabbi
Bodner, I went to the Fridayclass, I went to the Saturday
morning services, I went to theTuesday class, I joined like a,
(18:36):
like a, like a couple studiesgroup.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
What was his first name?
Aviyad Aviyad.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Rabbi Aviyad, was that his given name?
Yeah, he's Israeli.
Oh, okay, got it.
And.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
I'm asking because I went to elementary school with a
boy named David Bodner.
Okay, yeah, keep going.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
And we resonated.
You know he's, he's a, he washalf, so already half Ashkenazi
and he kind of like got me alittle bit and he asked me to
help him host these young,professional Shabbat dinners
that he wanted to bring, likemore people into the synagogue.
And after a year of likehelping him host these dinners,
(19:16):
I didn't have any friends orOrthodox it was not, the
community was not vibing with me.
I had all my friends fromcollege where I spent all my
social time with, who I loved,still loved dearly, and like
this Jewish thing was justsomething that I was kind of
like doing for me on the side.
And then, a year after hostingthese dinners, someone came up
to me and they said oh, you gotto come meet Rabbi Jack.
He's great, I got nothing tolose.
(19:36):
I liked these two people atthis dinner.
They were like some of thefirst people I met in like this
Orthodox world that like I evenvibed with at all.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
And so I was like fine, I'll go meet Rabbi Jack.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
And then what?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
And I go meet Rabbi Jack.
The next week I go to Shabbatdinner at a event he was hosting
and I was like hey, rabbi Jack,you know like nice to meet you,
a little hesitant myself, buthe like asked me about myself
and I was like, oh, I grew upwith these like this, like
Israeli Moroccans inPhiladelphia, and I didn't know
this.
But he was, he was Moroccan,venezuelan Moroccan, and he goes
(20:06):
Habibi, which is like like it'sa term of endearment.
He gives me a hug and I, thatwas it.
That's all I needed.
I needed someone to call meHabibi and give me a hug.
Rabbi Jack was like invited meto his house for Shabbat dinner
and I was talking at the Shabbattable and his wife asked me
when I had gone to Yeshiva.
And I was like, oh, I neverbeen to Yeshiva.
(20:26):
And Rabbi Jack laughed and he'slike yeah, but you probably
should go.
And Yeshiva is, of course, likethe institution for like Jewish
learning is what a Yeshiva is.
And I was like I don't go toYeshiva.
Like Orthodox people go toYeshiva, like ultra-Orthodox
people go to Yeshiva, charedipeople go to Yeshiva.
I was like I'm just like a guy.
And Then I met all these alumniwho had gone to this Yeshiva
(20:48):
called Mahonyakov, who was forpeople who did not grow up
religious, and I met a lot ofthese alumni and they were all
living lives similar to thelives I wanted to live.
You know, they were Jewish,they had beautiful families,
they had full careers and I justnever had met Jews like this
and I didn't know, I didn't knowwas an option, yep, to be in
the world and also to be likeconnected to Torah and Judaism.
(21:12):
And Seven months after I metRabbi Jack, I did this like
program in Somerset, england,which is like an English
countryside and they have likean idyllic, beautiful, like I
Don't know what's called like avilla.
I guess that they, that theyguys want to try Yeshiva.
And I was like a pre-Yeshiva,yeshiva, yeah and I went there
(21:34):
for a week and I met the rabbiswho work at this Yeshiva okay.
And I studied Gamara at greaterdepth than I ever had with Rabbi
Jack, and I'm sitting therestudying Gamar with this, with
this Rabbi, rabbi Jonathan Taub,and I'm just like this is More
difficult and complex thananything I ever learned in my
entire life and I have a degreein philosophy.
(21:55):
I was like what did I evenlearn?
I'm like, what is like?
What did I do?
And at the end of the trip Ihave a meeting with Rabbi Jacobs
, who's the director of theYeshiva, and he says he's like
so he seemed like he had a Goodtime on this trip.
I was like oh, I had the besttime.
Yeah he was like so you shouldprobably come to Yeshiva.
And I was like yeah, I'm gonnacome next year.
(22:16):
He's like why, why not thisyear?
And I was like well, I got ajob, I got a lease, and he looks
at me, he goes.
You know, you could quit yourjob and break your lease and I
was like oh, Crap.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Well, I just got the chill.
So it's like that moment ofwhat do I choose?
Speaker 2 (22:34):
So I want and I heard in my ears this like Confucian
idea Just to do what is right isself-evident, and I was like
what?
I'm either gonna go back toManhattan and spend one every
other paycheck, either on rentor on booze, or I'm gonna go to
Israel learn any Yeshiva how tobe my best self.
I was like come on, and andthat was it, and it, and, and
(22:56):
something clicked for you.
Yeah, it was on the 4th of Julyand I called my parents to tell
them I was gonna go to Yeshiva.
Okay and I told my mom like myheart was pounding and she was
just like okay, and handed thephone to my dad and I was like
he's like, what'd you just sayto your mom?
I was like I told her I wasgonna go to Yeshiva in August.
(23:17):
This was July 4th.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
I said I was going.
Yeah, hey, next month I'm gonnago to Israel, yeah and.
What did dad say?
Speaker 2 (23:28):
is that is there any similar program in the US?
I said there is not and he goesare you going toward something
or are you running away fromsomething?
Beautiful and I said goingtoward something, and he goes
and I guess you got to go, and Iwas like, yeah, I have to go.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Oh, my god, I feel like crying.
Okay, so you have this.
I I get to.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Yeshiva, the yeshiva.
I go to has is a two-yearprogram.
It's called Machon Yaakov.
It's in Harnofen in Jerusalem.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Right.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
The hard of his, a neighborhood in Jerusalem and
Grand over simplification it's.
It's headed by a rabbi namedRabbi Barrow Gershengfeld, who
himself is from the Philadelphiasuburbs.
He went to the same high schoolas me, actually in Abington.
Wow, brilliant, incredible mandoes not do him justice in any
way and he runs to Yeshiva's.
One is called Machon Shloma,ones called Machon Yaakov, and
(24:17):
the curriculum they're prettymuch whatever different guys,
but like the same program orless.
The first year is to havepeople who did not grow up in
orthodox communities to reallyacclimate themselves to the
broader orthodox world and kindof know how to walk the walk.
Okay, once you know how to walkthe walk, the second year is
about what is your place inJudaism?
(24:39):
Who are you as an individual?
How do you maximize your drives, desires, talents, skills and
become the most beautiful personyou can be?
All within the underpinnings ofJudaism.
Essentially, you build abeautiful vessel the first year
and you fill it with the beststuff you can fill it with the
(25:00):
second year.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Wow, that makes sense .
Oh yeah, yeah, 100%.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Second year it was like what am I gonna do when I
go back home?
I had no idea, but this being ayeshiva for people who didn't
grow up religious called likeHozri, meshuvah or Balachuva
essentially people who like comeback home is how we phrase it
People would just come to me inmy room and We'd have like a
couple drinks and we just talkabout life and, based off my
(25:26):
experiences and understandingsof like consciousness and the
little psychology I knew,whatever we just like a really
meaningful discussions.
And then I was like Could I dothis for my career?
Like could I just havemeaningful you and I've never
talked about this?
Yeah, so I had a lot of friendswho just like come by and they
just tell me about theirproblems and it was super nice.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
So again something clicked.
Yeah right like somethingclicked for you, so interesting
to hear this like.
So you said like it just.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Things should be how they should be right.
So Rabbi Yosif Lin, who's theDean of Students at Mahonyakov,
was finishing up his PsyD inorganizational development and
he needed a research assistantto help him finish his
dissertation.
So I was like I am a researchassistant who works in
psychology by trade, yeah, andhe was like you want to do this
(26:20):
and I was like I'd love to, andhis thesis was about workplace
satisfaction, and which is a lotof the work he does at my home.
Yako is like where do theseguys want to go to work, when
they, when they leave after thesecond?
Year yeah yeah, and he isreally big on talking about the
the balance between what you'regood at, what the world needs
(26:41):
and what's going to give you thefinancial stability that you're
looking for.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
I Want to press the pause button there for a second
and say to you that when so whenwe started talking about, like,
the messaging that you got fromyour parents about like gotta
make money, you gotta do it,gotta gotta do a career that,
like is gonna make you money,money, money that's really what
we're talking about is that that, like that Trifecta of those
(27:05):
three things the financialstability you know how are you
going to do something that'smeaningful, right, and then be
able to sustain a life?
Yeah yeah, and potentially yourgoal right to have a family and
all of these things right to notjust sustain your life but that
of like your family.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Yeah, yeah, and you have a responsibility to take
care of your family, you know.
If you choose to have one yeah,if you choose to have a family,
you have a responsibility.
Okay, and by the beginning ofmy second year, I guess, I Was
like I'm gonna be, I'm gonna bea therapist, and it was like am
(27:43):
I gonna apply to PhD programs ormaster's programs?
And, having never studiedpsychology before, really, I
mean I wanted to classes inschool but I didn't like study
psychology.
Yeah, I was like can I commitmyself to a PhD program?
And I could not that was liketoo much, yeah, and so I applied
to about five master's programsthroughout the US and Very
(28:05):
gratefully and happily chose togo to Temple University.
I loved the interview.
My whole family has gone toTemple University my parents and
uncles.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Yeah, grandfather.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Yeah, I feel very comfortable there.
I could live like in the Jewishcommunity I grew up and having
reentered it, as someone who wasfully Orthodox and like a
participating member in adifferent, different tier, and
it was COVID.
It was still.
It was during COVID.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yeah, I'm like what?
Speaker 2 (28:35):
I'm gonna move to another city where I don't know.
No one ever Locked inside alltime like I'm gonna go somewhere
I'm the most comfortable andcan get the best degree possible
.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
This.
This feels like such ano-brainer, yeah, like, oh my
goodness, gracious yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
So it was also hard for me to push back against my
rabbis, because I have aninclination to like just follow
an authority figure, because myrabbis wanted me to go to some
of the more prestigious schoolsI'd gotten into and they,
frankly, you know, meant wellbut didn't know so much about
the psych world as a whole or myown connection to Philadelphia
and Temple, and I had to make adifferent decision.
(29:06):
That's how you push yourselfaway from like your own
intuition or your will, when you, when you, when you Try to
offload it to someone elseinstead of developing it
yourself.
That is one way.
Yes, and that's something arabbi Gershwin was really big
about is is we.
He trained us to try to get intouch with our own, our own
self-knowledge and sense of self.
He's like I'm not gonna makedecisions for you.
He's like there's not my job,right, I want you to make, to
(29:30):
build this relationship withyourself.
So I called one of the rabbiswho was like loosely affiliated
with you, with the Ashiva, buthe's a master educator in Israel
and beyond.
His names are by Noah or Lueck,and I told her, by other way,
how it's hard for me to goagainst.
Like you know, we're out byJacob's, right, by Lynn.
They want me to go to this IvyLeague school, but I just I'm
worried it's gonna hurt myrelationship with them if I like
(29:51):
go to temple instead, orwhatever.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Oh and.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Rabbi Orlewech, who's this like Beyond?
Brilliant, kind, soft-spokenman screams at me and he goes
Judaism is not a cult.
He says Judaism is not a cult,he's like.
He's like if you go against thethe advice of your mentors and
advisors and they sever thatrelationship, they are not good
(30:15):
mentors or advisors.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
He's like.
He's like.
I know, rabbi Landon Rajig, fora long time.
They're allowed to expresstheir opinion.
You got to do is right for you,that's right?
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Okay, let's go for it , wow.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
I love that.
I mean that journey is Perfect.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
I love.
I loved my program.
I loved learning the thefundamental skills of being a
mental health counselor.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
I loved feeling so connected to something and being
really good at it, and that'swhat it made me realize like why
did I spend so much time in thehard sciences like I did not
like it?
I was interested by it but Iwasn't good at it and I felt
like insufficient all the time.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Well, let's, let's, let's, let's say for, but no,
because that's your process,right?
Yeah, so your process was Iliked it, I explored it and then
I realized I wasn't really goodat it and it didn't really like
set my heart on fire and.
You just took us through yourwhole process and it's so
(31:26):
fascinating because you're likeI don't know why I did that.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
I'm like really yeah, okay, I know, yes, I can tell
you.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
That was the most organic, you know process of how
you got to be here.
In this I mean not exactlyright here, but you know yeah
you know, to, at least to thepoint where you got your
counseling degree, or like howyou ended up there.
And Judaism where you stand in,judaism like it was.
(31:54):
It's not like you just woke upand we're like I'm done with New
York, say love you, I'm goingIsrael.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Like that's not what happened.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
It was actually an incredibly beautiful Evolution
of like the human process andexperience.
Yeah, I mean it's.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
I appreciate.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Yeah, no, that's.
I think it's important toacknowledge.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
I really a Thing.
I I know this facilitated thedecisions as well, but my
grandfather passed away.
Actually, like just before Istarted the second job in New
York okay, like I was alwaysfinishing up at MSK is when my
(32:37):
grandfather passed.
I was like 24, 25 and there'sno way that I have a word grand
enough to describe how importanthe was to my life and how much
he, like, cultivated my ownWell-being and my sense of self,
my, my love of beauty in theworld, my love of like Judaism,
(33:00):
my love of Philadelphia, ofAmerica, of art, music, history,
like he just loved life so much.
And when he Passed, he passedwhile I was on the train on the
way back to Philadelphia to tryto see him before he you was
gone and.
I Got to the hospital and, likemy whole family's there,
(33:24):
everyone's crying and I go in.
There's a Jewish custom to sitwith the body, so it's not by
itself.
And if the body's guarded likethe whole time Until it's buried
, which is always within,ideally it tries to be within 24
hours.
Yeah and I'm sitting there andI'm looking at my grandfather's
(33:46):
body and I Just keep telling usI was like Bob, I had 93 years.
Bob, I had 93 years incredibleyeah and 24.
I was like what am I gonna dowith the rest of my life?
That when I leave the worldlike I have a family who's also
here at the hospital, like, likewith me and I just saw him as
(34:10):
becoming a master of himselfthroughout his lifetime and I
was like I want to be a masterof myself.
I hope I get to 93 years and Ijust kept asking myself, like
how do I get the most life formy life?
Speaker 1 (34:23):
In that moment.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Yeah, I mean with wow how do I get the most life for
my life?
And then I came home, actuallywent to his house after leaving
the hospital To set up the housefor the Shiva, which is like
this seven-day morning periodafter someone dies in Judaism in
Judaism and I Collapsed on theground in the basement and they
(34:47):
fell into the fetal position andjust started crying and I.
It's so weird.
These are the words that I said.
I was saying like my Baba, myKing and I have cried only a
handful of times in my adultlife, which is not something I'm
proud of, it's just.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Yeah, it's like maybe we should talk about that.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Yeah, we can talk about that a lot here and it was
probably like, honestly, thefourth or fifth time I had cried
since I was 11.
Oh my god and I wanted to cryfor him and I needed to get so
many things out and Like,philosophically speaking, like
we have very negativeconnotation of Kings in the US
(35:29):
or in the world at large rightnow.
You know kings are tyrannicaland stuff like that.
But a true king, a noble kingthere's almost nothing better
someone who is there to takecare of you in the and the
kingdom.
That you're almost one entity,that.
It's a paternal relationship.
It's a.
(35:49):
It's a loving, caringrelationship and the king is
someone who has the most powerand vantage point to make
certain decisions for thekingdom.
In the the there's two wordsfor like a ruler in Hebrew.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
We often think of a king as a tyrant right.
That word in Hebrew is a Moshe,someone who like, is Overview
and forcing you to do something.
The word for a king that's morecommon is a melech, and the
word melech really means someonewho consults with you.
It's a totally differentconceptualization.
(36:22):
A king- totally different andthe king is like the head of the
nation, but the nation is apart of the king.
There's a phrase in Judaism isin melech below Um.
There's no such thing as a kingwithout a nation.
They make each other, they'reone entity.
And that's just how I feltabout my grandfather.
He was the real patriarch ofour family, and now that he was,
he was gone.
(36:43):
There was no one to take hisplace, so I had to become my own
leader.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Oh, what, what a moment.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
I I'm thinking about Something you said when we first
started this conversation today.
Hmm, when you said about when Isaid how did you, how did you,
get to deciding that you wantedto be a therapist?
Mm-hmm and you said that yousaw yourself Like oh my goodness
yeah say it again.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
It's like an advisor to a king.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
And that's exactly what came to me.
When you said I don't know why.
I said like my baba, my king,and I'm like, oh my god, do you?
I?
Just, I just got a wonder, youknow, like there's, maybe
there's there's a connectionthere around, like how integral
(37:34):
your grandfather was.
Yeah as as like a guiding forceand influential force for you.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
It's so I'm gonna tell you a story that's gonna
hammer that home a little bit, alittle bit more.
My grandfather would come to uswith like the whole family
questions all the time.
He would never you'd not belike make unilateral decisions
all too often.
I mean so, whatever he has toevery, every person has to make
decision like yeah, of course.
But we are.
I was probably like five yearsold and I'm the second youngest
of ten cousins, so it's just me,my brother and my immediate
(38:03):
family, my younger brother, butin the whole, all the cousins,
there was ten of us okay and mygrandfather sits us down one day
Over the summer, every Thursdaywe would go to his house.
All the cousins go to his houseevery Thursday.
We call it camp Thursday.
Oh and my grandfather would.
He was a master educator, youknow.
So he would either run the camphimself or he'd bring in his
(38:25):
doctoral students to run theCampformin.
They would like do psychometrictests on us and stuff.
Well, we thought it was fun.
We didn't know what's going on.
Anyway, one day he sits, allthe cousins around the table and
he goes look, you all call meBaba, you.
The reason you call me Baba isbecause Jackie, the oldest
cousin, loved Baba Blacksheep.
I would sing her BabaBlacksheep all the time.
(38:46):
So she will call me Bababecause I sing her Baba
Blacksheep.
He's like this is a made-upname, he doesn't mean anything.
He was like.
So, right now, all the cousins,I'm gonna let you vote on a new
name for me, a name that makessense and we all just like what?
Like your Baba, and he was like.
I understand that he's like,but do you want to call me like
(39:06):
Zady?
You want to call me Saba?
You want to call me grandpa?
He's like.
This is your one and onlychance.
Like you can all vote ascousins on what you want to call
me, or we're closing the bookand everyone's like.
It's Baba.
It wasn't even like everyonefreaked out.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Nobody even raised their hand.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Everybody was just like yeah yeah, but that is like
that is how.
That's how he involved us inthe process.
Like it's a wild thing.
Yeah, he respected us so much.
Yep, he valued our opinions andour intellect nation.
I not all my cousins, but likeme and my brother, and like
sometimes a few my cousins, butreally me, my brother, every
(39:42):
single Friday night, shabbatdinner.
It's a big deal in the Jewishculture and beyond the religious
sphere.
Every Friday night growing up, Iwould go to his house for
Shabbat dinner, literally 18years straight.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
I don't think I don't think I missed one.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
That's incredible and at the dinner table.
He would ask us to.
What was going on in politics?
What was going on in the news?
What's going on in school?
Can you have a conversation atthe table?
Do you know how to set thetable?
Do you know how to sitappropriately?
And it wasn't an.
It never felt oppressive.
It was like we.
There was nothing I felt betterthan making Baba proud.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
But it also it sounds like he operated in the world.
Operated in the world with suchIncredible self-awareness and
intention.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Yeah, and he modeled that.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Yeah, you know what I'm saying.
My grandmother also.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
My grandmother certainly did as well, but it
was a different thing comingfrom him.
You know something about him.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Yeah, sometimes, sometimes the other thing I'd
like to Know from you isobviously, we're here doing this
podcast, right, it's calledintuitive choices and we kind of
just you you gave us atherapist, how like your
relationship with Judaism and Ibut I want to know, like, why
are you doing this?
Why are you doing this podcast?
I just look, there's nothing.
(41:04):
I think that is more beautifulthan a person striving to be
their best selves.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Yeah, there's nothing more beautiful in existence
than the human being so real,and I think that's a really good
question.
I think that's a really goodquestion, and People are capable
of cultivating their own beauty, and I hope that by listening
(41:31):
to our conversations, they'lltake steps in that direction of
cultivating their own innatebeauty.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Exactly.
I think that's like beautifullysaid yeah, yeah, all right.
Well, I think that.
I think that that's a reallybeautiful place to end for today
.
I think it's great Good to get,good to know you yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
Okay, all right, bye, bye.
We want to thank you so muchfor listening to today's episode
.
If anything in today's episodespoke to you, please like
subscribe great review.
Also, don't forget to sharethis podcast with friends and
family.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
And if there's anybody that you know that you
think would be a great guest onintuitive choices, please email
us at intuitive choices dotpodcast at gmailcom.
Finally, if you want to knowmore about our mental health
practice, intuitive counselingand wellness, please check us
out at intuitive counseling ofPhilly comm.
Hey everybody, I'm Kimberly Dobbs.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
And I'm Jacob Miller.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
And we'd like to welcome you to another episode
of Intuitive Choices.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Kim and I are mental health therapists working in
Philadelphia.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
But wait, jacob, that's not all we are.
I mean, I'm blind and you're anOrthodox too.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Yes, kim, that's correct.
That's why this podcast isinteresting.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
But what really makes this podcast interesting is
that each week we invite a guestto speak about how their own
intuitive choices have led themto live a more meaningful life.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
We hope that this conversation encourages you to
make meaningful choices in yourown life.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Alright, off we go.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Let's do it.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Hey Jacob.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Hi Kim.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
So today on our podcast Intuitive Choices, we're
going to get to know you alittle.
Okay, how does that feel?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
I'm nervous.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Really yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Why?
Because I just asking myself alot of questions, like I want
our audience to get a sense ofwho I am, to see if my input
would be like useful to them inour podcast and like they'd be
interested in me and the kind ofquestions I have to ask.
(01:15):
But I'm also like asking myselflike there is a fine line
between, like sharing thingsthat are important for people to
know and things that I want tokeep private, and I don't know
where that line is, but I alsodon't want to hide anything, so
I'm just going to go for it.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Okay, there's always going to be.
We can look it up, but there'salways going to be things about
ourselves that are not foreverybody to hear.
They're just ours.
Good, let's move into the modeof.
I think how important it is forour audience to know who we are
.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
That's really what we're doing here, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Right, and so the place I'd like to start with you
is I personally don't believethat we end up doing this kind
of work.
Mental health therapy, whetheryou are a psychologist, whether
you are a mental healthcounselor, social worker,
marriage, family therapist,whatever it is even like you
know that I don't think that weend up here on accident doing
(02:15):
this kind of work.
I believe that we, eachindividual person, has like the
journey of what led us to becomea therapist.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
It's a calling.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
I believe it's a calling.
Do you believe it's a calling?
Speaker 2 (02:30):
I think, if you're lucky, it's a calling, I think
some people will end up beingtherapists because they, you
know, I don't know why, butthere's a lot of us where it's a
calling and that's what avocation is Like.
That's what vocation means,like vocal Like.
Oh, I love that.
I just remember doing my firstday of my master's program.
Yeah, one of the professors Ican't remember who like, asked
(02:54):
like.
Who here is like, the personwho all their friends come to
them for advice and, likeeveryone in the room raised
their hands like oh, that wascool.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Yeah, yeah, that was cool.
Cool Because why?
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Because what was that moment for you?
I think when you're the kind ofperson who your friends all
come to you for advice and evenyou have certain people you go
to for advice, there's only likeone of those people per friend
group often.
You know what I mean.
So like we don't, we know youdon't meet the other ones who
are?
Like the nodes of advice givingand like solace and counsel
(03:28):
right.
So it was cool that we were allin one place and we all wanted
to get better at this gift andskill of like knowing how to be
there for someone.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Okay, so what was your journey then?
Speaker 2 (03:41):
There's something in my core that.
I think one of my purposes inlife is to comfort people, but
not to comfort them just to, youknow, feel good in the moment.
It's to comfort and theninspire to keep on going and I
see that as like being anadvisor, as a counselor, as a
(04:01):
therapist.
I lost sight of that over time.
I think a lot of people youknow their families want them to
talk about your family, so yourfamily and your family growing
up.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Maybe there was some kind of messaging that, hey,
you're gonna, you're gonna,you're gonna do this, you're
gonna do that.
Right, what was the messaging?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
The messaging was I loved nature and I loved science
.
And I think my parents,especially my mom, like locked,
locked onto that.
And like you're gonna be ascientist of some kind, but
there's also like a big artisticcomponent to who I am.
Okay, like a gravitationtowards the humanities.
(04:48):
That was always like nice likeit was encouraged my family to
like art and music, but itwasn't like what anyone was
going to do.
And why is that we had a sensethat we did not have as much
financially as the people aroundus.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
But but we were capable of.
I was capable of making moremoney than my parents had and so
I had an obligation to do soand that kind of made me lose
sight of like the morehumanities side of me and I
shifted towards sciences.
So, like I loved biology, Iloved nature, I thought I was
going to do something in likethe hard sciences at some point.
But I actually don't like mathor sitting in a room by yourself
(05:25):
and looking at slides and yeah.
It just wasn't enough for me.
I have like a real deep driveTo see beauty in the world and I
think the world is beautiful.
Okay, but to be a biologist waslike not for me.
I did not want to be a doctorbecause it seemed like way too
hard and I didn't have thediscipline.
And that kind of strangelyculminated my senior year of
(05:52):
high school of like I Wanted tostudy neuroscience.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Oh, oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
I had seen a Ted talk by via Sramashandran, which I
really in sees a fantasticneuroscientist out in California
.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
I wonder if we can put that like that link in the
show.
That's not great yeah he'sreally influential.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
He's the one who, like, developed, like, like the
mirror therapy to get rid ofphantom limbs.
Oh, wow he did a lot of otherstuff.
He also happens to be an arthistorian, art critic.
Okay fuses those worldstogether.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
But I just so.
This person really must haveresonated with you.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Yeah, it was like an 18 minute Ted talk and I was
like I am interested ineverything I like art and
science and music and I was likeI want to study the thing that
understands the world, which isthe brain.
Right, like I'm in.
Okay, my parents were happy.
My mom was happy because, likeall neuroscience, like that
sounds like Really fancy and itsounds like something's gonna
make a lot of money, so that'sgood for you.
(06:50):
And then I started college atMuhlenburg College in Allentown
and Ready to study neuroscience,I was like what it was like one
of the first people in my yearto declare neuroscience, when
right up to Dr Jeremy, to Sarah,and became my advisor.
Okay, I'm very grateful to him.
He Was sitting at thecrossroads of neuroscience,
(07:15):
philosophy and religion and Justto see how beautiful the, the
human nervous system, is in themind and brain.
Yeah that can have these variousdifferent experiences which are
held in our physicality by likeminute reactions between
(07:35):
different chemicals and whatever.
And I'm not gonna go into thedetails of it because, honestly,
been like a decade and I don'tremember as well, but I just
fell in love with neuroscienceand I I blasted through the
program and.
I finished all my corerequirements when I was like a
sophomore, okay, and then I hadlike the another half of college
(07:57):
that I had to fill that spacewith okay and because my my
drives, my educational interests, whatever led me to philosophy,
and so I have a bachelor's inneuroscience and philosophy, and
my philosophy really focused onPhenomenology, which is the
(08:19):
study of how things appear to usand what we learn about them.
So which melds very well withneuroscience, because
neuroscience wants to know howto I Mean how to neurons fire.
So it can be like everything.
Anything is like Likeneuromuscular issues or whatever
.
Or it can be like literally howdoes our brain hold
consciousness?
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Along the way also had a religion minor that I
couldn't declare because theywanted me to pay an extra $5,000
, but I did the coursework.
Oh god, I'm not bitter aboutthat at all.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
No, not at all.
I can't hear it, even in theleast.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
No.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
Well, I'm gonna, I want to, I want to just circle
back really quickly to so,neuroscience, philosophy,
religion, yeah, mental healthcounselor.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Mm-hmm, I Would.
I wanted to know whatconsciousness is at.
When I graduated college, Iwanted to know what
consciousness is and how we canhave a conscious experience that
is linked to our body.
That was all I wanted to dowhen I graduated.
I Arrogantly thought I couldbecome a consciousness
(09:25):
researcher.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Why is that arrogant?
Speaker 2 (09:28):
because those jobs like don't really exist and it's
not really so respectedAcademically at least it really
wasn't when I was graduating.
I don't think if the fieldschanged since then.
And then Dr Tassara recommendedthat and I wasn't ready for a
PhD program Like I had a lot ofmaturing left to do and stuff
and dr Tassara recommended I geta job in a psych lab that works
(09:50):
with human subjects okaythere's like a stepping ground
to get to a consciousness laband I applied to 40 jobs in
Philadelphia because I wanted tostay in my hometown.
I did not get a single messageback from any job and I was
cleaning Tables at a physicaltherapy clinic outside of
(10:10):
Philadelphia.
I was making $10 an hour,living at home part-time, okay,
and I was very miserable and sadand reached out to as many
people as I could in my networkand I had a friend from college
who had a friend who worked atSloan Kettering Cancer Center,
memorial Sloan Kettering CancerCenter in Manhattan.
(10:33):
Okay and she called me up andsaid there was an opening in her
lab.
It was a lab studying howCancer patients quit smoking and
stay quit After they're donetheir treatment.
I got the job Okay and I movedto New York and I worked there
for two years in this lab as aresearch assistant and a
(10:55):
recruiter to these psychologicalstudies and I just saw such
amazing, amazing things in howpeople With like stage 4 cancer
or even like stage 1 cancer likeit is important for me to quit
smoking Because I want to provemyself I can do this right.
Some said I want to prove myselfto myself I can do this before
(11:15):
I die, and it was like almost aguarantee that they would.
They would pass and they justwanted to assert their will in
the world before they.
They were gone and Some peoplewere just like the cancer was
enough of a wake-up for them tobe like.
This is stupid.
I'm like killing myself.
I actually see how much I wantto live now and I don't want to
smoke anymore.
Yeah and I was just so inspired.
(11:36):
I was spending hours likeInterview, like doing like a
what's called qualitativeinterviews yeah, just asking
people about how they were intheir process, like what was
going well for them, what wasdifficult for them, and these
conversations were just soincredibly meaningful to me and
also like the cool conversationswas having other people in the
(11:57):
department, and theconversations became more
important to me than theresearch and the work.
And then I Was letting some ofmy duties slip a little bit and
we had a, a conversation with mysupervisors like this is not
the right fit for you, is it?
And I was like no, I don't wantto do research and I can't sit
in this room that has no windowsfor another year.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Wow.
And so we parted ways butcritical, like a critical piece
to the story, at least in myopinion, is what.
I don't know how aware of ityou were at the time, but
Recognizing how much Meaning you, how meaningful conversations.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Yeah, we're to you, that's all that's.
That's always been my greatestpleasure and I just wanted to
know what it meant to be aperson.
I guess it's important to saythat I was in, as I would say to
my dad, and I was like all thetime I would tell my dad from
time was really young, like Ialways had friends, but I never
felt like part of like the groupthat I want to be a part of.
(13:05):
For a long time I was reallyalienated.
I Like went from a privateJewish school to a public school
from sixth grade to seventhgrade.
I just never fully knew how tofit in anywhere.
I was okay and I would say tomy dad I just like I do not know
how to be, I just wish I knewhow to be.
(13:26):
And he was like it's gonna workout, like as soon as you're an
adult, like you're gonna be fine.
It's just like he's essentiallytell me, like my mind was too
old for a kid, like I didn'tknow how to.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Be a kid so I want to .
I want to just kind of circleback to the moment when you
realized what do you have thatconversation with your
supervisor?
Okay, this isn't a good fit forme.
I Love meet the meaningfulconversations I'm having.
I do not like research at all.
Yeah um, and then what?
(14:01):
Because I know, after SloanKettering, you took off to
Jerusalem.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Oh, there was one more step which is really
important.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Oh, thank you for bringing us back.
Yeah, so what was the stepbetween those two?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
things.
So my third year in Manhattan.
I left MSK and I worked for asmall healthcare startup and one
of the my friend who got me toMSK she had left to help start
this other company.
She was their second employee,my third maybe, and I was the
fourth, and we were helping kidsget access to Medicaid
(14:33):
programming in New York City andthat job paid me way more money
than MSK did and I also had somuch more free time.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Wow, starting to when we talk about, you know,
recognizing that work-lifebalance, and also write this
idea of being if you are goingto work right, it is your time
in exchange for money.
Yeah, you know, the idea isthat it not be soul crushing.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Yeah, which was really important for me Also.
It's important for me, it wasimportant for me to be in a job
where I, like, reallyappreciated my boss and saw my
boss as someone who was like anups not that my boss's MSK
wasn't upstanding, it's that wasactively cultivating me as an
employee or as whatevertrajectory I was on like sort of
(15:29):
like a boss slash mentor iswhat.
I was striving for.
I actually really liked thesecond job.
They gave me a lot of autonomyand really respected my opinion,
and so that was like sort oflike a boost in self-confidence
after I felt like I was a reallylow place after leaving that
job at MSK.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
So what, then, inspired you to move to
Jerusalem?
Speaker 2 (15:49):
In college.
I dropped a lot of stuff when Iwas living in New York.
From my first year living inNew York, I was no longer on the
track team, I no longer had myacademic course load and I had a
little bit of money for thefirst time and I was like having
a real good time in Manhattanwith, like my college friends,
you were like cut and loose.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
cut and loose got it.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
And after a year of that I was like I am tired of
being hungover.
Too many of my Sundays arewasted being hungover.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
But here's the thing.
Do you realize, like I guessthat let me ask this as a
question.
I know you're tired of beinghungover.
You can look back and go.
All of my you know theseSundays were wasted.
You know my time was beingwasted recuperating from
drinking the night before, butlike what happened in you that
(16:43):
got you to wake up.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
I was very inspired in college, studying
Confucianism under Dr StevenCattino, about how beautiful the
human being is and the humanexperience.
Not that Confucius ever saidanything like this, but there's
a sentiment I got from studyingConfucianism that like the
reason you do the right thing isself-evident, like there's no,
it's not because of social good,it's not because it makes you
feel good, it's like a humanbeing knows the difference
(17:07):
between right and wrong andyou're supposed to do it.
And that was my guidingprinciple and I just felt like I
wasn't doing the right thing.
Not that it was like, not thatit wasn't inherently the right
thing, but it wasn't right forme.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
And this goes back, you know, sort of again, like
this underlying theme of whatyou know, your intuition, right,
that that's what I would callit.
You don't call it will right,but this idea that like
something in you, this gutfeeling was, like something's
not aligning.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Something right, would you?
Does that resonate with you ornot?
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Absolutely Okay.
But I didn't know where to gonext and I started going to a
synagogue that was like nearishto me.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
It just occurred to me is how, a little bit all over
the place, your Jewish identityis.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Yeah, I don't know how to fit into a box and I
always do the thing that likeresonates with me the most.
Like I won't, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Just in general.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
We're talking generally speaking, yeah, but,
but it's interesting.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
So so Rabbi Bodner said Yep, it was a Friday night
service, it was really nice.
And he said well, you know, youcan come tomorrow morning,
saturday services, and I teach aclass on Tuesdays.
And I just did everything, andthat was a year of me and Rabbi
Bodner, I went to the Fridayclass, I went to the Saturday
morning services, I went to theTuesday class, I joined like a,
(18:36):
like a, like a couple studiesgroup.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
What was his first name?
Aviyad Aviyad.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Rabbi Aviyad, was that his given name?
Yeah, he's Israeli.
Oh, okay, got it.
And.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
I'm asking because I went to elementary school with a
boy named David Bodner.
Okay, yeah, keep going.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
And we resonated.
You know he's, he's a, he washalf, so already half Ashkenazi
and he kind of like got me alittle bit and he asked me to
help him host these young,professional Shabbat dinners
that he wanted to bring, likemore people into the synagogue.
And after a year of likehelping him host these dinners,
(19:16):
I didn't have any friends orOrthodox it was not, the
community was not vibing with me.
I had all my friends fromcollege where I spent all my
social time with, who I loved,still loved dearly, and like
this Jewish thing was justsomething that I was kind of
like doing for me on the side.
And then, a year after hostingthese dinners, someone came up
to me and they said oh, you gotto come meet Rabbi Jack.
He's great, I got nothing tolose.
(19:36):
I liked these two people atthis dinner.
They were like some of thefirst people I met in like this
Orthodox world that like I evenvibed with at all.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
And so I was like fine, I'll go meet Rabbi Jack.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
And then what?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
And I go meet Rabbi Jack.
The next week I go to Shabbatdinner at a event he was hosting
and I was like hey, rabbi Jack,you know like nice to meet you,
a little hesitant myself, buthe like asked me about myself
and I was like, oh, I grew upwith these like this, like
Israeli Moroccans inPhiladelphia, and I didn't know
this.
But he was, he was Moroccan,venezuelan Moroccan, and he goes
(20:06):
Habibi, which is like like it'sa term of endearment.
He gives me a hug and I, thatwas it.
That's all I needed.
I needed someone to call meHabibi and give me a hug.
Rabbi Jack was like invited meto his house for Shabbat dinner
and I was talking at the Shabbattable and his wife asked me
when I had gone to Yeshiva.
And I was like, oh, I neverbeen to Yeshiva.
(20:26):
And Rabbi Jack laughed and he'slike yeah, but you probably
should go.
And Yeshiva is, of course, likethe institution for like Jewish
learning is what a Yeshiva is.
And I was like I don't go toYeshiva.
Like Orthodox people go toYeshiva, like ultra-Orthodox
people go to Yeshiva, charedipeople go to Yeshiva.
I was like I'm just like a guy.
And Then I met all these alumniwho had gone to this Yeshiva
(20:48):
called Mahonyakov, who was forpeople who did not grow up
religious, and I met a lot ofthese alumni and they were all
living lives similar to thelives I wanted to live.
You know, they were Jewish,they had beautiful families,
they had full careers and I justnever had met Jews like this
and I didn't know, I didn't knowwas an option, yep, to be in
the world and also to be likeconnected to Torah and Judaism.
(21:12):
And Seven months after I metRabbi Jack, I did this like
program in Somerset, england,which is like an English
countryside and they have likean idyllic, beautiful, like I
Don't know what's called like avilla.
I guess that they, that theyguys want to try Yeshiva.
And I was like a pre-Yeshiva,yeshiva, yeah and I went there
(21:34):
for a week and I met the rabbiswho work at this Yeshiva okay.
And I studied Gamara at greaterdepth than I ever had with Rabbi
Jack, and I'm sitting therestudying Gamar with this, with
this Rabbi, rabbi Jonathan Taub,and I'm just like this is More
difficult and complex thananything I ever learned in my
entire life and I have a degreein philosophy.
(21:55):
I was like what did I evenlearn?
I'm like, what is like?
What did I do?
And at the end of the trip Ihave a meeting with Rabbi Jacobs
, who's the director of theYeshiva, and he says he's like
so he seemed like he had a Goodtime on this trip.
I was like oh, I had the besttime.
Yeah he was like so you shouldprobably come to Yeshiva.
And I was like yeah, I'm gonnacome next year.
(22:16):
He's like why, why not thisyear?
And I was like well, I got ajob, I got a lease, and he looks
at me, he goes.
You know, you could quit yourjob and break your lease and I
was like oh, Crap.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Well, I just got the chill.
So it's like that moment ofwhat do I choose?
Speaker 2 (22:34):
So I want and I heard in my ears this like Confucian
idea Just to do what is right isself-evident, and I was like
what?
I'm either gonna go back toManhattan and spend one every
other paycheck, either on rentor on booze, or I'm gonna go to
Israel learn any Yeshiva how tobe my best self.
I was like come on, and andthat was it, and it, and, and
(22:56):
something clicked for you.
Yeah, it was on the 4th of Julyand I called my parents to tell
them I was gonna go to Yeshiva.
Okay and I told my mom like myheart was pounding and she was
just like okay, and handed thephone to my dad and I was like
he's like, what'd you just sayto your mom?
I was like I told her I wasgonna go to Yeshiva in August.
(23:17):
This was July 4th.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
I said I was going.
Yeah, hey, next month I'm gonnago to Israel, yeah and.
What did dad say?
Speaker 2 (23:28):
is that is there any similar program in the US?
I said there is not and he goesare you going toward something
or are you running away fromsomething?
Beautiful and I said goingtoward something, and he goes
and I guess you got to go, and Iwas like, yeah, I have to go.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Oh, my god, I feel like crying.
Okay, so you have this.
I I get to.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Yeshiva, the yeshiva.
I go to has is a two-yearprogram.
It's called Machon Yaakov.
It's in Harnofen in Jerusalem.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Right.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
The hard of his, a neighborhood in Jerusalem and
Grand over simplification it's.
It's headed by a rabbi namedRabbi Barrow Gershengfeld, who
himself is from the Philadelphiasuburbs.
He went to the same high schoolas me, actually in Abington.
Wow, brilliant, incredible mandoes not do him justice in any
way and he runs to Yeshiva's.
One is called Machon Shloma,ones called Machon Yaakov, and
(24:17):
the curriculum they're prettymuch whatever different guys,
but like the same program orless.
The first year is to havepeople who did not grow up in
orthodox communities to reallyacclimate themselves to the
broader orthodox world and kindof know how to walk the walk.
Okay, once you know how to walkthe walk, the second year is
about what is your place inJudaism?
(24:39):
Who are you as an individual?
How do you maximize your drives, desires, talents, skills and
become the most beautiful personyou can be?
All within the underpinnings ofJudaism.
Essentially, you build abeautiful vessel the first year
and you fill it with the beststuff you can fill it with the
(25:00):
second year.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Wow, that makes sense .
Oh yeah, yeah, 100%.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Second year it was like what am I gonna do when I
go back home?
I had no idea, but this being ayeshiva for people who didn't
grow up religious called likeHozri, meshuvah or Balachuva
essentially people who like comeback home is how we phrase it
People would just come to me inmy room and We'd have like a
couple drinks and we just talkabout life and, based off my
(25:26):
experiences and understandingsof like consciousness and the
little psychology I knew,whatever we just like a really
meaningful discussions.
And then I was like Could I dothis for my career?
Like could I just havemeaningful you and I've never
talked about this?
Yeah, so I had a lot of friendswho just like come by and they
just tell me about theirproblems and it was super nice.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
So again something clicked.
Yeah right like somethingclicked for you, so interesting
to hear this like.
So you said like it just.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Things should be how they should be right.
So Rabbi Yosif Lin, who's theDean of Students at Mahonyakov,
was finishing up his PsyD inorganizational development and
he needed a research assistantto help him finish his
dissertation.
So I was like I am a researchassistant who works in
psychology by trade, yeah, andhe was like you want to do this
(26:20):
and I was like I'd love to, andhis thesis was about workplace
satisfaction, and which is a lotof the work he does at my home.
Yako is like where do theseguys want to go to work, when
they, when they leave after thesecond?
Year yeah yeah, and he isreally big on talking about the
the balance between what you'regood at, what the world needs
(26:41):
and what's going to give you thefinancial stability that you're
looking for.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
I Want to press the pause button there for a second
and say to you that when so whenwe started talking about, like,
the messaging that you got fromyour parents about like gotta
make money, you gotta do it,gotta gotta do a career that,
like is gonna make you money,money, money that's really what
we're talking about is that that, like that Trifecta of those
(27:05):
three things the financialstability you know how are you
going to do something that'smeaningful, right, and then be
able to sustain a life?
Yeah yeah, and potentially yourgoal right to have a family and
all of these things right to notjust sustain your life but that
of like your family.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Yeah, yeah, and you have a responsibility to take
care of your family, you know.
If you choose to have one yeah,if you choose to have a family,
you have a responsibility.
Okay, and by the beginning ofmy second year, I guess, I Was
like I'm gonna be, I'm gonna bea therapist, and it was like am
(27:43):
I gonna apply to PhD programs ormaster's programs?
And, having never studiedpsychology before, really, I
mean I wanted to classes inschool but I didn't like study
psychology.
Yeah, I was like can I commitmyself to a PhD program?
And I could not that was liketoo much, yeah, and so I applied
to about five master's programsthroughout the US and Very
(28:05):
gratefully and happily chose togo to Temple University.
I loved the interview.
My whole family has gone toTemple University my parents and
uncles.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Yeah, grandfather.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Yeah, I feel very comfortable there.
I could live like in the Jewishcommunity I grew up and having
reentered it, as someone who wasfully Orthodox and like a
participating member in adifferent, different tier, and
it was COVID.
It was still.
It was during COVID.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yeah, I'm like what?
Speaker 2 (28:35):
I'm gonna move to another city where I don't know.
No one ever Locked inside alltime like I'm gonna go somewhere
I'm the most comfortable andcan get the best degree possible
.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
This.
This feels like such ano-brainer, yeah, like, oh my
goodness, gracious yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
So it was also hard for me to push back against my
rabbis, because I have aninclination to like just follow
an authority figure, because myrabbis wanted me to go to some
of the more prestigious schoolsI'd gotten into and they,
frankly, you know, meant wellbut didn't know so much about
the psych world as a whole or myown connection to Philadelphia
and Temple, and I had to make adifferent decision.
(29:06):
That's how you push yourselfaway from like your own
intuition or your will, when you, when you, when you Try to
offload it to someone elseinstead of developing it
yourself.
That is one way.
Yes, and that's something arabbi Gershwin was really big
about is is we.
He trained us to try to get intouch with our own, our own
self-knowledge and sense of self.
He's like I'm not gonna makedecisions for you.
He's like there's not my job,right, I want you to make, to
(29:30):
build this relationship withyourself.
So I called one of the rabbiswho was like loosely affiliated
with you, with the Ashiva, buthe's a master educator in Israel
and beyond.
His names are by Noah or Lueck,and I told her, by other way,
how it's hard for me to goagainst.
Like you know, we're out byJacob's, right, by Lynn.
They want me to go to this IvyLeague school, but I just I'm
worried it's gonna hurt myrelationship with them if I like
(29:51):
go to temple instead, orwhatever.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Oh and.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Rabbi Orlewech, who's this like Beyond?
Brilliant, kind, soft-spokenman screams at me and he goes
Judaism is not a cult.
He says Judaism is not a cult,he's like.
He's like if you go against thethe advice of your mentors and
advisors and they sever thatrelationship, they are not good
(30:15):
mentors or advisors.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
He's like.
He's like.
I know, rabbi Landon Rajig, fora long time.
They're allowed to expresstheir opinion.
You got to do is right for you,that's right?
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Okay, let's go for it , wow.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
I love that.
I mean that journey is Perfect.
Speaker 2 (30:33):
I love.
I loved my program.
I loved learning the thefundamental skills of being a
mental health counselor.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
I loved feeling so connected to something and being
really good at it, and that'swhat it made me realize like why
did I spend so much time in thehard sciences like I did not
like it?
I was interested by it but Iwasn't good at it and I felt
like insufficient all the time.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Well, let's, let's, let's, let's say for, but no,
because that's your process,right?
Yeah, so your process was Iliked it, I explored it and then
I realized I wasn't really goodat it and it didn't really like
set my heart on fire and.
You just took us through yourwhole process and it's so
(31:26):
fascinating because you're likeI don't know why I did that.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
I'm like really yeah, okay, I know, yes, I can tell
you.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
That was the most organic, you know process of how
you got to be here.
In this I mean not exactlyright here, but you know yeah
you know, to, at least to thepoint where you got your
counseling degree, or like howyou ended up there.
And Judaism where you stand in,judaism like it was.
(31:54):
It's not like you just woke upand we're like I'm done with New
York, say love you, I'm goingIsrael.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Like that's not what happened.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
It was actually an incredibly beautiful Evolution
of like the human process andexperience.
Yeah, I mean it's.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
I appreciate.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Yeah, no, that's.
I think it's important toacknowledge.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
I really a Thing.
I I know this facilitated thedecisions as well, but my
grandfather passed away.
Actually, like just before Istarted the second job in New
York okay, like I was alwaysfinishing up at MSK is when my
(32:37):
grandfather passed.
I was like 24, 25 and there'sno way that I have a word grand
enough to describe how importanthe was to my life and how much
he, like, cultivated my ownWell-being and my sense of self,
my, my love of beauty in theworld, my love of like Judaism,
(33:00):
my love of Philadelphia, ofAmerica, of art, music, history,
like he just loved life so much.
And when he Passed, he passedwhile I was on the train on the
way back to Philadelphia to tryto see him before he you was
gone and.
I Got to the hospital and, likemy whole family's there,
(33:24):
everyone's crying and I go in.
There's a Jewish custom to sitwith the body, so it's not by
itself.
And if the body's guarded likethe whole time Until it's buried
, which is always within,ideally it tries to be within 24
hours.
Yeah and I'm sitting there andI'm looking at my grandfather's
(33:46):
body and I Just keep telling usI was like Bob, I had 93 years.
Bob, I had 93 years incredibleyeah and 24.
I was like what am I gonna dowith the rest of my life?
That when I leave the worldlike I have a family who's also
here at the hospital, like, likewith me and I just saw him as
(34:10):
becoming a master of himselfthroughout his lifetime and I
was like I want to be a masterof myself.
I hope I get to 93 years and Ijust kept asking myself, like
how do I get the most life formy life?
Speaker 1 (34:23):
In that moment.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Yeah, I mean with wow how do I get the most life for
my life?
And then I came home, actuallywent to his house after leaving
the hospital To set up the housefor the Shiva, which is like
this seven-day morning periodafter someone dies in Judaism in
Judaism and I Collapsed on theground in the basement and they
(34:47):
fell into the fetal position andjust started crying and I.
It's so weird.
These are the words that I said.
I was saying like my Baba, myKing and I have cried only a
handful of times in my adultlife, which is not something I'm
proud of, it's just.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Yeah, it's like maybe we should talk about that.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Yeah, we can talk about that a lot here and it was
probably like, honestly, thefourth or fifth time I had cried
since I was 11.
Oh my god and I wanted to cryfor him and I needed to get so
many things out and Like,philosophically speaking, like
we have very negativeconnotation of Kings in the US
(35:29):
or in the world at large rightnow.
You know kings are tyrannicaland stuff like that.
But a true king, a noble kingthere's almost nothing better
someone who is there to takecare of you in the and the
kingdom.
That you're almost one entity,that.
It's a paternal relationship.
It's a.
(35:49):
It's a loving, caringrelationship and the king is
someone who has the most powerand vantage point to make
certain decisions for thekingdom.
In the the there's two wordsfor like a ruler in Hebrew.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
We often think of a king as a tyrant right.
That word in Hebrew is a Moshe,someone who like, is Overview
and forcing you to do something.
The word for a king that's morecommon is a melech, and the
word melech really means someonewho consults with you.
It's a totally differentconceptualization.
(36:22):
A king- totally different andthe king is like the head of the
nation, but the nation is apart of the king.
There's a phrase in Judaism isin melech below Um.
There's no such thing as a kingwithout a nation.
They make each other, they'reone entity.
And that's just how I feltabout my grandfather.
He was the real patriarch ofour family, and now that he was,
he was gone.
(36:43):
There was no one to take hisplace, so I had to become my own
leader.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Oh, what, what a moment.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
I I'm thinking about Something you said when we first
started this conversation today.
Hmm, when you said about when Isaid how did you, how did you,
get to deciding that you wantedto be a therapist?
Mm-hmm and you said that yousaw yourself Like oh my goodness
yeah say it again.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
It's like an advisor to a king.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
And that's exactly what came to me.
When you said I don't know why.
I said like my baba, my king,and I'm like, oh my god, do you?
I?
Just, I just got a wonder, youknow, like there's, maybe
there's there's a connectionthere around, like how integral
(37:34):
your grandfather was.
Yeah as as like a guiding forceand influential force for you.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
It's so I'm gonna tell you a story that's gonna
hammer that home a little bit, alittle bit more.
My grandfather would come to uswith like the whole family
questions all the time.
He would never you'd not belike make unilateral decisions
all too often.
I mean so, whatever he has toevery, every person has to make
decision like yeah, of course.
But we are.
I was probably like five yearsold and I'm the second youngest
of ten cousins, so it's just me,my brother and my immediate
(38:03):
family, my younger brother, butin the whole, all the cousins,
there was ten of us okay and mygrandfather sits us down one day
Over the summer, every Thursdaywe would go to his house.
All the cousins go to his houseevery Thursday.
We call it camp Thursday.
Oh and my grandfather would.
He was a master educator, youknow.
So he would either run the camphimself or he'd bring in his
(38:25):
doctoral students to run theCampformin.
They would like do psychometrictests on us and stuff.
Well, we thought it was fun.
We didn't know what's going on.
Anyway, one day he sits, allthe cousins around the table and
he goes look, you all call meBaba, you.
The reason you call me Baba isbecause Jackie, the oldest
cousin, loved Baba Blacksheep.
I would sing her BabaBlacksheep all the time.
(38:46):
So she will call me Bababecause I sing her Baba
Blacksheep.
He's like this is a made-upname, he doesn't mean anything.
He was like.
So, right now, all the cousins,I'm gonna let you vote on a new
name for me, a name that makessense and we all just like what?
Like your Baba, and he was like.
I understand that he's like,but do you want to call me like
(39:06):
Zady?
You want to call me Saba?
You want to call me grandpa?
He's like.
This is your one and onlychance.
Like you can all vote ascousins on what you want to call
me, or we're closing the bookand everyone's like.
It's Baba.
It wasn't even like everyonefreaked out.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Nobody even raised their hand.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Everybody was just like yeah yeah, but that is like
that is how.
That's how he involved us inthe process.
Like it's a wild thing.
Yeah, he respected us so much.
Yep, he valued our opinions andour intellect nation.
I not all my cousins, but likeme and my brother, and like
sometimes a few my cousins, butreally me, my brother, every
(39:42):
single Friday night, shabbatdinner.
It's a big deal in the Jewishculture and beyond the religious
sphere.
Every Friday night growing up, Iwould go to his house for
Shabbat dinner, literally 18years straight.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
I don't think I don't think I missed one.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
That's incredible and at the dinner table.
He would ask us to.
What was going on in politics?
What was going on in the news?
What's going on in school?
Can you have a conversation atthe table?
Do you know how to set thetable?
Do you know how to sitappropriately?
And it wasn't an.
It never felt oppressive.
It was like we.
There was nothing I felt betterthan making Baba proud.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
But it also it sounds like he operated in the world.
Operated in the world with suchIncredible self-awareness and
intention.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Yeah, and he modeled that.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Yeah, you know what I'm saying.
My grandmother also.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
My grandmother certainly did as well, but it
was a different thing comingfrom him.
You know something about him.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Yeah, sometimes, sometimes the other thing I'd
like to Know from you isobviously, we're here doing this
podcast, right, it's calledintuitive choices and we kind of
just you you gave us atherapist, how like your
relationship with Judaism and Ibut I want to know, like, why
are you doing this?
Why are you doing this podcast?
I just look, there's nothing.
(41:04):
I think that is more beautifulthan a person striving to be
their best selves.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Yeah, there's nothing more beautiful in existence
than the human being so real,and I think that's a really good
question.
I think that's a really goodquestion, and People are capable
of cultivating their own beauty, and I hope that by listening
(41:31):
to our conversations, they'lltake steps in that direction of
cultivating their own innatebeauty.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Exactly.
I think that's like beautifullysaid yeah, yeah, all right.
Well, I think that.
I think that that's a reallybeautiful place to end for today
.
I think it's great Good to get,good to know you yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
Okay, all right, bye, bye.
We want to thank you so muchfor listening to today's episode
.
If anything in today's episodespoke to you, please like
subscribe great review.
Also, don't forget to sharethis podcast with friends and
family.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
And if there's anybody that you know that you
think would be a great guest onintuitive choices, please email
us at intuitive choices dotpodcast at gmailcom.
Finally, if you want to knowmore about our mental health
practice, intuitive counselingand wellness, please check us
out at intuitive counseling ofPhilly comm.
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