August 8, 2023 • 51 mins
Picture growing up with night blindness, receiving a diagnosis for a degenerative eye condition in high school, and then facing the reality of complete vision loss as an adult. This is the story of our co-host, Kimberley Dobbs, a mental health therapist and mother who has taken this journey with Retinitis Pigmentosa. Kimberley opens up about her life, sharing her compelling journey and the impact of her mother's cancer diagnosis during her own period of self-discovery. Her story serves as a testament to resilience, compassion, and undying hope.
Kimberley's narrative is not just about the challenges of living with Retinitis Pigmentosa; it’s about the power of human spirit and the art of making informed choices. From selecting a career path to deciding to have children before losing her vision, she shares insights on how she navigated these life-altering decisions. With her, we explore her experience with human growth hormone treatments in childhood and how it instilled in her a spirit of perseverance. Her anecdotes are a rich tapestry of life’s highs and lows, courage and faith. Step into Kimberley's world to find inspiration, discover a fresh perspective on joy, and learn to appreciate the beauty of human diversity.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey everybody, I'm Kimberly Dobbs.
Speaker 3 (00:06):
And I'm Jacob Miller.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
And we'd like to welcome you to another episode
of Intuitive Choices.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
Kim and I are mental health therapists working in
Philadelphia.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
But wait, jacob, that's not all we are.
I mean, I'm blind and you're anOrthodox too.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Yes, kim, that's correct.
That's why this podcast isinteresting.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
But what really makes this podcast interesting is
that each week we invite a guestto speak about how their own
intuitive choices have led themto live a more meaningful life.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
We hope that this conversation encourages you to
make meaningful choices in yourown life.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Alright, off we go.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Let's do it.
Would you mind introducingyourself?
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Sure, well, I'm Kimberly Dobbs and I am 40 years
old and I am a mental healththerapist in the great city of
Philadelphia.
That's right, I've been atherapist for 17 years and I
(01:02):
have a group practice in CenterCity, philly, philadelphia, and
what's it?
Called, and it's calledintuitive counseling and
wellness.
I have a fabulous guide dognamed Ursula who gets me to, and
I'm a pro, and I've got twoincredible teenage kids and I'm
(01:28):
blind.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Yeah, were you always blind?
Speaker 1 (01:32):
No, I went blind over time from a condition called
retinitis pymintosa, so it is adegenerative eye condition of
the retina and so it's a geneticcondition.
Although nobody in my familyhas it and it for me, and it's
(01:53):
so interesting because it soundslike such a rare disease or
condition or whatever you wantto call it, it is not that rare.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
What's not that rare look like.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
I think a few million people have it in the world and
it's just more common than youthan you think and it started
for me and it looks differentlylike from person to person from.
Rp person to RP person.
It's like it doesn't show upexactly the same.
(02:31):
RP is the people who have it.
Yeah, we'll call it RP from noone.
And when I was younger, Ialways had a night blindness, so
I wasn't able to see in thedark.
But the funny thing is likethis was just like a totally.
This was like just normal.
Like, oh, kim can't see in thedark and it's fine.
I went to sleep boy camp allsummer as a kid.
(02:52):
It was just like this normalthing.
Kim has night blindness andnobody ever really thought
anything of it.
And then one day, my freshmanyear of high school, I was a
homecoming homecoming dance andI went to the homecoming
incoming dance and it was dark,of course, and this is not the
first dark event I've ever beento, but it was like the first
(03:14):
dark event I went to where Ithought like this sucks, like I
can't see anything and I love todance.
I should like say that.
So the dance is over.
My mother comes to pick us up,my friends and I, and I say to
her look, can we figure outwhat's going on with this night
blindness?
I really want to, like weshould see if there's anything
(03:36):
they can do for us.
At this point I'm like in a 14years old, 14 and a half.
So my mother takes me to aretina specialist down in Miami,
because that's where we'reliving down in Florida at the
time and I did all these testsall day.
I don't remember much about it,I just remember it was
uncomfortable and it was hoursand hours and they pulled my mom
into another room.
(03:57):
What was uncomfortable about it,like what kind of the tests are
really different now becauseit's 2023 versus 1998, but they
were like they would they likeput this like contact, this like
plastic contact, kind of insidemy eye but like outside my eye,
and it was all this gel so like, if you can imagine, just your
(04:17):
eyes are just wildly irate, likeit's just irritated, and these
tests took hours and you had asight to sit in one spot, like
looking at bright lights, likeit was hours of these like tests
and again they're verydifferent.
Now I had the Marie Dunn, liketwo years ago, and I was like
wow, technology has come a longway.
(04:38):
Because I was dreading it, youknow, and so they didn't tell me
.
They didn't tell me what I.
They just told me I hadsomething called rod cone
dystrophy, which is somethingelse other than retinitis.
It was another condition.
They're very similar to eachother, but either way, they told
.
They told me this Internet wasnot really a thing, like it's
(04:59):
not, like I went, I could gohome and Google it and they said
to me in front of my mom lateron they said, oh, you know,
there are support groups forthis, so we get home that night
and I was like mom, like Ireally want to join a support
group.
It would really cool to likemeet people who are, like, also
night blind, and she never toldme that the prognosis was
blindness.
(05:20):
She never told me that it's dayblindness.
Yeah, it would lead toeventually lead to blindness.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Did you know how long ?
Speaker 1 (05:29):
I didn't know anything.
I didn't know anything.
She didn't tell me anything.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Did the doctors tell your parents, like I have?
Speaker 1 (05:33):
no idea I'm going to get to that.
So my mom doesn't tell meanything.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
And this was what was her mood like?
Could you tell her?
Speaker 1 (05:41):
No, just kind of just nothing.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
Matter of fact, we just went to the doctors.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
We went to the doctors.
We have this name for it.
There's nothing they can doabout the night blindness, but
and there's a support group forit.
That's all I knew.
Okay.
And then at the end of what wasit?
My freshman year of high school, so that was the beginning of
my freshman year of the end offreshman year, my mother gets
diagnosed with cancer no cancer,so like April or May of that
(06:10):
year, so it was 97 to 98.
, so I got the dates a littlemixed up, but either way.
So she gets diagnosed withcancer and then she ended up
dying like nine months later.
Oh my gosh In January of 1999.
And I'm saying this because allthe while, like she still did,
wls, going blind, so goingthrough that, everything happens
(06:32):
with that.
And then one day and Iliterally happened this way I
woke up in the morning, mysenior year of high school, and
I opened my eyes and somethinglooked.
It just looked different.
Just what I, the view lookeddifferent.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Like blurrier, less crisp.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
It's hard to even say .
I think it was.
I don't even know.
People have asked me that Idon't even know how to describe
it.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
I was off.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
I knew it was off.
I something was off.
I kept holding my hand over oneeye and then going back and
forth and being like somethingis not right.
And I look in the mirror andI'm like my reflection just
doesn't look the same.
And you know I'm I had, I was acontact user, like contact lens
user, and you know, justsomething felt different.
(07:18):
So I call up my aunt and I'mlike, look, something's wrong
with my eyes.
I don't know what it is.
So my dad and my aunt fly me upto the Wilmar Institute of
Johns Hopkins in Maryland and Igo through that entire day of
testing again like three yearslater, and this time the doctor
(07:39):
was like, ok, you have retinitispymotosa.
So it's like, officially, whatI have is retinitis pymotosa.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
What's the second word?
Speaker 1 (07:45):
So it's pigmentosa P I G M E N T O S A pigmentosa.
So she says this is what I have, and my twin sister was with me
too.
So it's like my aunt and myuncle, my twin, myself, and
she's like so, unfortunately,this, this is a degenerative
condition, which means that youwill continue to lose more of
(08:08):
your eyesight.
And my twin, in a very like youknow, very exacerbated, was
like well, how long does shehave?
And I just looked at my sisterand was like we got this, like
let me.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
So I were you so calm in that moment.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
I had a similar conversation three weeks prior
to my mom dying with heroncologist, because everybody
was sort of like she's going tolive, she's going to live, and I
just had this incredible,incredible gut feeling that she
was dying.
And I had had that feeling formonths.
And finally we, the oncologist,came to the house and I just
(08:48):
looked at him, very similarly tothe way that I did with the eye
doctor, and I said is my motherdying?
And he's like, well, she has,you know, she's, she's very,
very sale.
He didn't want to tell thisteenager that is not that her
mom was dying.
So I just said I was like canyou just tell me?
Like I just need to know, likeI need this information.
(09:09):
And he said yeah, he just saidyes, and I said, well, how long
does she have?
Maybe three weeks?
And I said OK, and then Ilooked at him and I put my hand
up and I said do you mind if Icry for a minute?
He said sure, and so I put myhead down and I cried and then I
said thank you, and I literallysaid thank you, and I got up
(09:31):
and went into my bedroom youknow when cried, and this felt
similarly, although I didn'thave a moment, I didn't, I
didn't cry, but I did say so.
So, yeah, what's, what's like,what's the timeline?
And she said, well, a lot ofpeople, that a lot of women,
when they, when they getpregnant, for some reason, we
(09:52):
don't really understand why, butthey, they lose a lot of their
eyesight when they are pregnant.
And which makes sense to me nowbecause I'm like, ok, because
like a lot of your nutrients,right, or it's dead, you know it
goes to the baby, right yeah?
And and that was true, that didhappen with both my pregnancies,
my my significant vision losshappened in both my pregnancies.
(10:14):
And and she said but for themost part, most people are like
fully blind, I mean they'll havelike light perception, which I
do have, by the age of 40.
That was pretty pretty spot on.
So and I said, ok, and you know, a part of me maybe feels like
maybe I kind of knew that, likeI knew that this wasn't going to
(10:36):
like get any better.
Also, when you're 17 years old,40 years old feels like an
eternity away, like it didn'tfeel scary to me.
I remember not feeling scared.
I remember feeling bummed outand upset, but I didn't feel
scared For me.
I started to kind of go well,what do I then?
(10:58):
What do I want to do with mylife?
Like, if I'm going to be blind,how, how does that, how does
that life look?
And so I decided I was going tobe a therapist, because how do
you get from one to the other?
When you say what do you mean?
Speaker 3 (11:16):
how do you get from?
I'm going to be blind, so Iwill be a therapist.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
I was going to college.
I was about to go to college toto go to the University of
Rhode Island for school and youknow, I knew I'd have to pick a
major and I knew I loved talkingto people, I love connecting
with people, and I knew that Ineeded to, like I say this but I
(11:46):
don't necessarily believe thisnow as a 40 year old like, oh, I
had to pick a career at 17,.
But that's like that was thenarrative, right, that was, you
know, I was like that's what Iwas.
Like, oh, you have to pick acareer.
Like I have to know what I'mgoing to be when I grow up.
I have to know what I'm doinghere.
I'm not because I'm going, notjust because I'm going blind,
but because, like that's justsort of like what was kind of
taught to me.
(12:06):
So I'd always wanted to be ateacher.
So that's a, that's a piece ofinformation I forgot, I left out
.
So I wanted to be a teacher,like a high school teacher.
And so I changed my mind andthought, well, I really like
people.
I'll become a therapist becauseI won't need eyesight to do
(12:27):
therapy.
I don't need eyesight to talkto people.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
I am personally grateful that's the decision
that you made in that moment,but I have to imagine you would
have been able to be a teacher.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I think you know I've thoughtabout it here and there in the
last like 10 years, not goingback to teaching but being like,
oh, I could have done that.
That that would have been okay.
But you know, again, it waslike it wasn't like I was like
asking people.
I wasn't like, you know, Ididn't, I didn't do any kind of
informational interviewing.
I was kind of like I was alonein that process, like really
(13:03):
alone in that process.
You know, like, okay, I'm goingto like go to college, I'm
going to, you know, pick a major, I'm going to pick a career and
I'm going to pursue that.
And I'm going to do thatknowing that at some point I
won't be able to see anymore.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Do you think there was something about knowing you
were going to overcome thehardship of losing your vision
on top of overcoming thehardship of having lost your
mother, that you thought youwould have something to offer to
people in therapy that would bedifferent than you as a teacher
?
Speaker 1 (13:42):
No, not a conscious thought.
You hear the question yeah.
Okay.
Yeah, even if it wasn'tconscious.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Even it wasn't conscious.
Do you think?
Speaker 1 (13:48):
I think that that potentially, like unconsciously,
that could have been happening,but I was.
I would say um no, I would saythat started to become um no.
I remember thinking throughgrad school that I was really,
(14:08):
and in college I was reallyfascinated with with death and
dying.
So I minored in Thanatology.
That transition of life todeath is really extraordinary,
like really incredible.
And so you know, I hadconsidered like going into like
just exclusively griefcounseling, things like this.
(14:31):
You know, bereavement work, soin that way I think it kind of,
but like that's that feels likemore like surface, not like this
, like deep undercurrent of likeI feel like because of my life
experiences, I can add value inthis very particular way as a
therapist.
That didn't happen.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
I um, I know you've thought about this a lot, or at
least like this is like this,like you told the story before.
I know it's only makes sense.
It just I think there's a depththere that is really profound,
because, I think it again, youcould have just stayed being a
(15:12):
teacher.
I think that it almost feelslike a, like a, really a cosmic
shift or something miraculous,like, oh no, this is what I'm
doing instead, because I heardthis information.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
That feels.
That feels more right than like, whether it was conscious or
unconscious, it it to me it itfeels like more of like a like
you, like you just said almostcosmic, or like like a universal
kind of like shift into thisother direction.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Like it's so interesting, it's like a calling
yeah, yeah, it would havehappened anyway, even though you
hadn't gone to the doctor,right, yeah, but by going to the
doctor and hearing theinformation the way you did when
you did it, it crystallized apath for you that hadn't been
perceptible before.
Yep, so you're at school.
Yeah.
(15:59):
You become a therapist, youmove from Rhode Island to where.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
I, so I graduated college.
That was the other thing I did.
I graduated college in threeyears.
How come?
It was interesting, I'll say itdifferently.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
What led to that choice?
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Yeah, no, that's a great thought.
I love that.
Yeah, I kind of accelerated mylife a bit.
I, I, I don't want to ever takeaway from what it could be like
to get a terminal diagnosis, aterminal illness kind of thing,
but it, I think it was a littlelike that for me, like, oh, I've
(16:44):
got to like do these thingsbecause this is how much this is
like what's going to happen.
So, again, like my firstsemester, freshman year, I was
like I'm going to graduate inthree years and I did.
I, my now ex husband, slashhusband, emeritus slash friend
(17:06):
David, and I got engaged my lastyear of college.
I was 21 years old.
I got married at 22.
And I remember like having veryintentional conversations about
having children, young, younger, because I literally said, okay
, I'm going to like this isprobably going to make me go
(17:27):
blind and I'd rather have moreeyesight on the front end of
this than not.
Then then when the kids, youknow, when I am older and I'm
already blind.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
So that is.
It is such a wild decision tohave children to begin with and
everyone knows they give thingsup when they have children but
to know the likelihood of youalso giving up vision as part of
that trade, I can't comprehendthat.
(17:59):
I know that's what happened,you know but, I, just can't.
And it's so interesting.
It's interesting because, likeeveryone gives up things when
they decide to have children andif they don't, then they're
very disappointed when thechildren arise and they see what
they can't do anymore.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
But to know that at the front end, Thank you for
saying you know, no one's eversaid that to me before.
Really.
Yeah, yeah, I never, I never,yeah, I quite literally have
never thought about it like thatat all.
I thought about it like likehow can actually kind of
(18:38):
circling back to what you weretalking about about this like
harmony between meaning andpragmatics?
and practicality around, likeokay, what can make this?
And again, I don't think thiswas like like I'm talking about
this very, very practicallyright now and it was not.
I remember sitting down withDavid and saying I really want
(19:01):
to try to have another childWe'd had Molly already and he
was like I don't know if we canafford it.
You know the same conversationsI think all of my new, my new
mom slash dad clients are havingright now around like you know,
the financial, you knowchallenges around children and
those kinds of things.
And he's like I really don'tthink we can afford it.
And I said to him I don't know,like maybe this is the benefit
(19:24):
of being 26 that I said I thinkit'll work out, like I just, I
think it'll be fine.
You know, let's just, I really.
I remember crying to him andbeing like I really I really
think we need to do this now.
And he said okay.
And then we, you know, thankGod, we, we really, we really
(19:50):
very thankfully did not have weeasily got pregnant with both of
our kids.
And then God had very healthypregnancies with both of my
children and and that was thehardest one that pregnancy not
the pregnancy wasn't hard, but Istarted using like a cane, a
white cane, like right afterhaving Alex your second, your
(20:16):
second child?
Yes, and and you know it's funnyI have three siblings.
Two of them are older and oneis my twin sister nobody has it.
By the way, nobody has this,can, nobody has blindness in my
family and they all have youngerkids.
My twin sister has a six yearold, my brother has a nine month
old and a two year old and myother sister has a three and a
(20:38):
half year old son and I spendtime with them a lot.
Right, we're all really closeand it's like man, thank God.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
thank God because Thank God for what's with us.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Thank God that I had my kids with more eyesight on
the front end, like it's just,it's a weird thing to be around
really, really young children.
Look, it is not to say that Icouldn't handle being a mom,
blind, I think.
Look, I don't think blindersshould stop us from doing
anything.
I always say we're not disabled, we're differently abled.
(21:15):
But it's sure as hell is easier.
So to have a 15 year old and a13 year old when I'm blind, you
know, and versus having a threeyear old and a five year old
being blind, totally different.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
So I cannot begin to imagine taking care of my three
and a half month old son withany less senses than I currently
have.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Yeah, I mean, it's a thing right, like, would it be
possible?
Yeah, but like again, you know,would it have been harder?
Yes, yeah, that's a unique.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
You appreciate how unique that mindset is of even
knowing like it would bepossible.
What experiences have you hadin your life that afforded you
the ability to choose themindset of?
It would have been harder, butit would have been possible.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
So you're telling me that having the mindset of it
would have been harder butpossible is interesting to you.
Very.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Why?
What's the what, the counterquestion?
You don't think it's a.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Tell me why you think it's interesting, and then I
think I'll be able to answeryour question better.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
It is interesting because I think that's one of
the points of this podcast.
How can people cultivate amindset like that?
Okay.
That it doesn't matter if itwould be harder, it's still
possible, cause I think thedefault mindset of most people I
meet in general and the peopleI meet in my work as a therapist
(22:55):
.
They get stuck when harderimmediately becomes impossible.
And the work we do is say no,no, no, no, definitely harder,
acknowledging it's harder stillpossible.
That's all the work we're doing.
Not all of it, but asignificant portion.
Yep, harder, I'm not going totake it away from you.
I'm not going to say it's notharder, acknowledging it's
(23:17):
harder, in fact.
Maybe I'll show you how it'seven harder than you acknowledge
which is why you feel it'simpossible.
Let's give you more insight onactually how hard it is.
Now we can approach it, figureout what to do so, the mindset
that seemingly manifested in youmore naturally than others.
(23:37):
Yep, that would have beenharder, but still possible.
How do you get there?
Speaker 1 (23:44):
I think I've had, I think I had, a lot of
experiences in my life that werehard, and what's coming to me
is something else about me isI'm also only four foot 10.
Okay.
And I'm saying that because atlike three years old, I wasn't
(24:12):
even on the growth chart fromlike what I was told.
I was so small that I wasn'teven.
I was like wasn't even on thegrowth chart, whatever that
means.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
And you're saying that in and of itself is like
what have been a thing.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Well, it was.
Yeah, like you know, when wetalk about percentiles, like
with your son Akiva, and you'relike, oh, he's in the top
percentiles, I like was in thelowest percentile, if not, like
even on the, there was like a,you know, a growth chart of like
where you're supposed to be ata certain age and.
I like, was so small that Iwasn't even on it.
Okay.
And my parents decided this wasthe early 80s that they were
(24:50):
going to put me a part of like apilot program for human growth
hormone, and so I still rememberit.
I had to go to a hospital.
I was three and a half yearsold and I called it the blue
thing.
I don't even know what it was.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
The hospital was the blue thing or the treatment.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
The treat, the, the test I had to take.
It was a an ongoing multi hourblood test, maybe like two or
three hours, and now I know itwas.
It was an IV and they wrapped,blew something around like a
blue brace around my arm to keepthe IV in, because I was so
(25:33):
little.
I remember it, I remember whatit looked like, I remember the
waiting room.
I remember the place that inthe waiting room.
I remember crying every timethey brought me, but I have a
very good memory.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
I remember crying.
That's also something like yourmemory is incredible and I have
to imagine that also has helpedin.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
I maybe.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
But I don't think it's a maybe.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
I can't cause you I like yeah, I'll let you keep
going.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
The point of this, the reason why I'm telling you
this, is because I remember allof those things and I remember
crying every time they drew myblood cause I thought it was
painful, even though it probablywasn't painful.
That test determined that I wasnot actually growth hormone
deficient.
But this is the 80s and I don'tknow.
But I, my parents, were able toput me apart of this pilot
(26:30):
program and I got human growthhormone, anyway, and I had to
take an injection every otherday, and these were
intramuscular, which meant thatthey were, they would go into
the muscle.
And, again the 80s, theseneedles were not very, very thin
, they were very thick, and mymother had to give me this
injection before school everyother day, to the point where,
(26:53):
like, I wouldn't even be able towalk up the stairs because so,
and we did this for years and Itook these injections for years.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
Okay, you do you feel like you were actively choosing
to take those injections?
I was not.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
In fact I actively did not want to take those
injections.
But to circle back to youroriginal question around, like
this is harder but it's possible.
Like you know, it's I've that,I think significantly,
significantly shaped.
It's not my mother dying, it'snot the blindness.
(27:35):
I actually think it was goingthrough that experience of being
really really small,internalizing that this is not
okay.
Like my physically, who I am,is like not okay.
So we're going to like dowhatever we can to make this
better for you.
And even though I didn't want,it was very painful and it
(27:59):
continued to be painful and andyou know, for year, I mean, I
took these injections for years,how many years?
About about 11 years, 11 years,11 years till I was 15 years old
.
So you know, and it didn't, itwasn't always it was
(28:21):
intramuscular, but you know andmaybe it's a conversation for
another day you know kind oftransition to like you know, you
know the injections were alittle bit easier because they
weren't intramuscular injections, but then there were every day.
It was like a whole thing.
But the point is, is that itwas like this, this again, I
don't think this is like adirect connection of like okay,
this thing is like why have thismindset of like?
(28:42):
Just because it's harderdoesn't mean it's not possible.
But I think going through thatlike and like, like it was, it
was hard, you know what I mean.
And and I like in some weirdway, like I remember thinking
like kind of a badass because Igive myself injections and like
(29:05):
I'm kind of like I'm tough, youknow.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
You are tough.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
And it was like this.
It was just the way that wholeexperience again, I don't know,
I don't know specifically,because, again, it's not like.
It's like, oh, because it just,you know, it makes me think
things are possible.
It wasn't that.
I just think that that shapedme to being able to persevere
(29:29):
despite that it like wasn't okay, like I didn't like it, I
didn't like it, it didn't.
I remember thinking like isthis even helping?
Like I'm still short as f***you know what I'm saying Like
but yeah, so, but that's that'sliterally what I thought.
I thought like I would think itlike it's still so short, like
(29:51):
I don't even know if this isworking, but I'm still doing
this anyway, so, yeah, so that's, that's a, that's like a nice
detour to like you know, justgive you a little bit more of my
background and like I thinksome of the things that like
shaped who I am and why I am.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
There's a benefit in.
I think, really think there's agift in knowing how hard life
is, and I think people try toconvince themselves either it's
not hard or that it shouldn't behard.
I don't think it should hasanything to do with it.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
You know I really embody this idea that hardship
it's all relative to only yourown experience.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
Oh, for sure.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
So for me, like sure, I get like, look, I'm a
therapist, right, so I mean Italk to people about their own
hardships all the time and youknow, by comparison, I'm just
like wow, and also, you know,it's, it's we only know what
we're living.
You know, I mean, sure, like wehave empathy and I mean most of
(30:51):
us do and so I can trulyempathize.
I can, I am a very empatheticperson, even empathic, you know.
But like just not comparingyourself to other people and
being like, okay, like this ishard for me, right, it doesn't
have to be relative to anythingelse.
That you're your you're, youare your own benchmark.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
Frustration is frustration and every emotion
you feel is eternal.
Yeah.
What's interesting to me aboutour conversations and about the
podcast and about our work astherapists is we have
conversations that transmitcommunal knowledge of how to
(31:36):
overcome hardship conceptually,so that when you face it
literally, it eases the process.
Yeah, that's.
That's, I think, more miraculousthan people give credit to, and
I think one of the primarybenefits of us being therapists
is that we learn About a segmentof the human experience of
(32:00):
overcoming hardship all day longwhen we need with different
clients and what we can do is,as the nexus of those
conversations is not only shareprinciples of psychology and
Therapy that can help people,but we we are like we hold
communal knowledge of the whatpeople are coming to us with and
we can.
Think, ah, I one client wentthrough something similar and
(32:20):
this helped them intuitively.
Let me share something thatthey had said with you that they
would.
You would never come up inconversation because it may be
too intimate, too hard, but likewe can Transmit that
information for people, I thinkthat's our hope for the podcast
also.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Yeah, a hundred percent agree, and even from our
, I think even even pulling fromour own, our own life
experiences.
Speaker 3 (32:42):
Yeah you know, this may not be relevant, but
actually I bet it is relevant.
I just don't know how to bringit up in a more natural segue.
Can you talk to me a little bitabout your grandmother and how
she may have been Significant orhelpful in the hardships that
you yourself faced orimpediments that you yourself
(33:04):
faced?
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Yeah, it's.
It's funny you bring her up,because a few minutes ago I was
actually thinking about her as Iwas talking Um.
So my grandmother, grandmaFanny, she is going to be 93
years old In 11 days.
Wow and she is a survivor ofthe Holocaust.
(33:25):
She.
What she experienced was Reallyreally, really crazy.
Can't get into it now, but yeah, hmm.
But what's interesting is thatAbout a month and a half ago I
(33:45):
had a bar mitzvah for my son andshe hadn't she hadn't, like,
left her house in three yearsbecause, you know, we were all
dealing with a pandemic and shetraveled up here to the
Philadelphia area from FloridaTo see her great-grandson Be bar
(34:06):
mitzvah for people who don'tknow what bar mitzvah is, what's
the significance Like?
Speaker 3 (34:10):
why would she be willing to go so far?
And I'm gonna defer to youbecause no, no, this year your
son's bar mitzvah.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Well it's, it's a pretty significant rite of
passage into Judaism.
It's it's when the Jewish boybecomes a man at 13 years old,
and there's a ceremony thatcomes along with that, where the
Jewish boy or girl becausethere's spot mitzvah now too,
(34:38):
although that's a relativelynewer Tradition they will read
from the Torah, because prior toyour bar or about mitzvah, you
are not to read from the Torah.
That's my understanding, okay.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
It's at those for when a girl is 12 and a boy is
13.
They are not responsible forthemselves.
Yeah, and because they don'thave responsibility, they're not
given privileges or they can'tDo something for someone else.
Reading Torah is actuallyyou're reading Torah on behalf
of the whole congregation, andso because a boy before the age
(35:17):
of 13 is, not obligated inlearning Torah.
Because they're not obligated inanything, they can't do it for
someone else.
But once they themselves becomeobligated and responsible for
themselves, then they can do.
They can be an actor, amessenger.
Yep to carry out the obligationfor someone else, so I I think
(35:40):
this, we, this is.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
This is really great, because I you and I Were both
Jewish.
You are with the docks and I amReconstructionist, which is,
we'll get into it and I'll getinto it.
We'll get into it, and I don'teven know how to explain it, but
I'm, I'm, I.
Sometimes they would say I'mlike a secular juice, so it's
very this is also the reason whyI think we have such
(36:04):
interesting, for for us I'm notnecessarily for everybody else
but why our conversations areinteresting, but anyway, yes.
So my grandmother decided tocome up After the bar mitzvah.
She, she went home and wetalked on the phone and she says
, kimberley, that was the mostbeautiful bar mitzvah I've ever
been to in my entire life she'sbeen to a lot of them and I said
(36:29):
, oh my gosh, grandma, thank you, I can't even believe you came.
I mean, I've said all this toher when she was there.
But and she said I don't knowhow you did it.
I don't know how you pulled offsuch a beautiful bar mitzvah
without being able to see You'rethe most incredible person I
(36:49):
know and I Was like I've neversaid this to my grandmother.
My grandmother never reallyarticulated that sentiment to me
, I don't know.
She said exactly that likeyou're the most it.
But she said yeah it was thatsentiment.
She goes I couldn't believe it.
You're so amazing, you know,you've made so much of your life
.
And then I said you know,grandma, I, I got that from you.
(37:16):
And she said no, no.
I said no, grandma, yes, yes,this is a conversation was like
only like three weeks ago.
I said yes, I did.
I said I really need you toknow like you survived Hitler
and Came to the United States asa 17 year old girl all alone,
(37:44):
and the person that you weresupposed to stay with, your
uncle, had died Like prior, likewhile you were in transit on
the boat on the way to America,and you literally had to create
a life for yourself withoutknowing the language and just
surviving Auschwitz.
And I said that is why I amextraordinary, because you are
(38:09):
extraordinary.
And then she told me that.
Then she said when are yougonna come visit me?
Because you bring light into mylife.
I think she deflected a littlebit, if I'm being honest.
Speaker 3 (38:22):
Yeah, but she's allowed.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
She's allowed, she gets a pass, but it was really,
it was probably the mostprofound Dialogue I'd ever had
with my grandmother, and thathappened just three weeks ago.
So, yeah, I I Think that it is,um, I don't know like when it
that's modeled to you or Ofcourse, are able to manifest it
(38:48):
without it being modeled ofcourse, of course, and and and,
even if it is modeled to youMaybe, maybe it's not the same,
but yeah to me, yeah, I um that,I think it really.
I think it was played a hugerole in In my approach to life
(39:11):
and also, you know, not fornothing, but my grandmother has
really instilled in us.
Like you know, we have aresponsibility as as Jews, you
know, because she survived theHolocaust their responsibility
to what to Continue to carry onJudaism and those kinds of
(39:35):
things.
Right, so that you know topractice Judaism, to carry it on
those kinds of things, yeah, so, not not necessarily saying
that we do or don't, but it wassomething that was really, you
know, encouraged.
Speaker 3 (39:53):
So Maybe that is a unique thing that the Jews do
carry with them.
It's like how to survivebecause, like the Holocaust may
be the most thing that's mostrecent, but there's, like every
generation, there's actuallysomething, yeah, resembling a
Holocaust, and we just keep, wekeep going Yep, that's what we
(40:13):
do, and now they're going.
It's like thriving and yeah andI think you and I I Feel a
similar sentiment, that like notbecause of our Judaism
necessarily, but like we justlove to see people who can
thrive.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
I I love to see, I think I love when, I love when
people thrive, and I think thatI really Love to help people
find Whatever they need to findwithin themselves literally
anyone yeah well, you and I aresimilar that we will help any
(40:51):
single person we meet Be theirbest selves.
Speaker 3 (40:55):
Yeah, even if we disagree with who that best self
might be like on a personallevel, like an Uh, either a
professional level or a levelhigher than our own person hoods
, we just like to see people betheir best selves.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
Yeah, yeah, and like whatever I, I think that
whatever yeah, without withoutinserting what, what my Like,
what my version of a person'sbest self like.
Speaker 3 (41:21):
Yeah, it's yeah, exact without inserting your
version of a person's best self.
What a person feels that theyare thriving?
Yeah, that person is a personthat's filled with like kindness
and and a healthy sense ofcompetition that like is not
like gonna take anything foranyone else.
Those people are givers, thosepeople are conduits of
(41:41):
confidence and respect, andthose that can look radically
different for different people.
Yeah, but you get there Via thechoices that you make.
Yeah we spoke about severalchoices that you made In the
past.
In the episode so far, we spokeabout the choice to
(42:03):
Continuously get your GH yourhuman growth hormone shots and
even though it was hard, you didit anyway and you had the
impression of yourself that youwere bad.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
I felt like I actually didn't have a choice in
that, but yeah so what part ofit did you have a choice in?
Speaker 3 (42:18):
was your mindset yeah , right yeah.
You chose the mindset to getthrough taking the human growth
hormone shots.
Yeah, you chose to havechildren, even though it was
gonna be get the cost of yourvision.
You chose to become a therapistbecause it would maximize your
Desire to speak with people yourgift is speaking with people
(42:38):
and manifesting a career thatwas meaningful to you.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
How do you make those choices?
Are they the same?
Are they different?
Speaker 1 (42:50):
You mean like, where does that come from within me?
Yeah, I think that I don't know.
I think that it comes from aplace of wanting to live and
Knowing what it feels like when,like knowing what joy feels
like and knowing that, for me,joy experiencing joy, I think
(43:15):
that's a good thing.
I think that's a good thing.
I think that's a good thingthat, for me, joy experiencing
joy comes from, you know, livinga life of meaning.
Speaker 3 (43:30):
Is joy, the guiding force in Allowing you to make
those decisions the pursuit ofJoyful moments.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
Yeah, not excitement.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
Yeah, I think.
I think it's a huge dealbecause excitement could be like
I'm gonna go.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
Oh, I'm gonna look for.
I look forward to this trip.
I'm going on.
Speaker 3 (43:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
No, no, it's like deep, satisfactory, meaningful
joy joy Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
There's 10 words for happiness in Hebrew and each has
specific meanings okay.
But the one that most peopleare familiar with, and the one
you may be most familiar with,is Simcha.
Yeah, what's a simcha?
So it's a party you know youhave an assembly.
Yeah but the depth of the wordsimcha is the type of joy that
(44:32):
comes from the process of tryingto manifest something.
Simcha is the joy of theprocess.
Yeah and it's hard.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
But even even when something's hard, the process of
something is hard, like you canstill feel, you can still
experience joy.
Speaker 3 (44:58):
Absolutely yeah, but and I'll say differently you
have to go through somethingthat's hard to experience that
type of joy.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
The pursuit of joy pursuit ofjoy I.
Think it's, it's, it's like itjust drives me.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:20):
And you have clarity on that also.
A lot of people.
It's hard for them to find thatclarity, but there's a pseudo
joy that's really.
That's something.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
Yeah, I and like and also just I just really want to
be very clear.
It's hard to describe what,what joy feels like in the body,
but I can tell you it is, it isnot, it's not, it's not.
It's not excitement, it's not.
I think it's beyond the body,yeah, and I think it's it.
(45:52):
It's like embodied, I don'teven know like it's, like it's
transcendent, yeah, it's, it's,it's for, it's transcendent,
like that's how I mean it,that's, that's.
That's what I feel like joyreally is.
Is this transcendent experiencein your mind, body and your
(46:12):
spirit, that that like it's sofunny, I keep getting this like
vision of my head like that justmakes that just sort of creates
a smile, like literally, like aliteral smile, you know, and it
doesn't have to be a smile, butit's just the feeling of a
(46:35):
smile the feeling of a smile andit's like okay, and I and I
think Somewhere in my 40 yearsearlier, early on, like Lee, I
think I learned early on whatthat feels like, but again not
(46:55):
and not in like this, likeIntoxicating Lee, like I'm
looking for excitement kind ofway.
I really want to be clear aboutthat.
But I think I learned what itfeels like to embody joy.
Speaker 3 (47:06):
It's a meal versus a piece of candy.
Yeah it's more like an entirediet.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
Yeah, oh well for you maybe yeah.
But that's what I, that's,that's what it is, and so for me
it's like.
I think, when you are talkingabout this idea of like, like,
what drives me to have thismindset of like?
You know it's hard, but it'sstill possible, or it's?
Speaker 3 (47:32):
hard, but it's still possible.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
Part of the Still possible participating in life,
even when things get hard.
Or it's like Because at theroot, at like the root of my
existence, on it like a cellularlevel, driving everything like
my engine.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, is like the, thepursuance or pursuit.
(47:57):
What's the word pursuit?
Pursuit of joy, of joy and Like, and and what I've learned, and
not in the so far, you know,like not not that far, not that
long ago, I mean the last 15years or something is Like Mike,
(48:17):
the conduit for that is throughmeaningful experiences.
Speaker 3 (48:26):
So that's what I do that's a deep, a deep truth.
Yeah, there's really a guidingprinciple.
Thank you for giving medifferent language for that,
because it's like it's not justyou know, it's not just like
I've worked with clients andsaid, like to pursue meaning,
yeah, but like that's kind of Isee how short-sighted that is
because it like what do you meanmeaning?
Speaker 1 (48:45):
How do?
Speaker 3 (48:45):
you know it's meaningful, etc.
Because if you're engaging insomething meaningful, it
manifests in a sentiment of joy.
Yeah, I was talking to a friendover Over the weekend on
Shabbat, on the Sabbath, andhe's a very deep guy.
I asked him how Does he know hehe Achieve that meaning, he he
(49:16):
achieved a level of depth in a,in a in Jewish prayer.
Mm-hmm.
Like how do you go?
How does he know?
He went beyond saying the words, like actually accomplishing
his goal of the prayer, becauseprayer and Judaism is not just
like, it's actually prayers, nota good translation, the word is
actually self-reflection.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
Yeah, so how do you?
Speaker 3 (49:35):
know you, appropriately self-reflected
Mm-hmm, and he says when he,when he steps Because when Jews
pray they stand at the pinnacleof the prayer when he steps away
from his moment of prayer, fromhis self-reflection, when he
thinks he did it well, he gets ajust the feeling of that was
(49:59):
right or I am more aligned withmyself than I was before I
stepped into it.
And I think that's what you'retalking about.
When you, when youappropriately self reflect and
align yourself with who you'resupposed to be, it is Very
difficult and at times evenpainful, but when you do it with
the best intentions and withthe right mindset, you step away
(50:23):
from having made that decisionwith that feeling of joy.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
Maybe not right away, but it gets you yeah,
definitely not right away, butit gets you.
Speaker 3 (50:34):
Yep, that was great.
I had one more question I wantto ask you, but that, I think,
is a nice place to wrap up.
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (50:43):
Yeah, I mean you can ask me the question and we can
always cut it out.
Speaker 3 (50:46):
Yeah, I feel like this is a little silly at this
point, but I still want to askthe question If you could time
travel and you had five minutesto meet a younger version of
yourself, which version ofyourself would you meet with and
what would you say to her?
Speaker 1 (51:08):
When you texted me your questions and you were like
I don't love them, I had afeeling that you might have been
referring to that question.
No, that's the one I like themost okay good, because that's
the one I loved the most too,and Even, just even, just like
closing my eyes and visualizingMe at different parts of my life
(51:30):
.
It was I like I get emotionallybeen even just thinking about
it.
It's like a very, very, veryevocative Question.
I think it's even moreemotional for me Talking Like
having this whole conversationtoday, that's doing this episode
(51:52):
with you and then and thenanswering this question at the
end.
Mm-hmm, when I read thequestion originally before we,
like this morning, when you sentme the questions, the, it was
me at 11 and and it was just avery simple like everything will
(52:15):
be okay Because 11 and 12 was.
That was a difficult time, youknow, of like going through
puberty and Dealing with likeNot really liking what I looked
like.
You know, and you know lots andlots of people at that at my, at
(52:41):
that time of my life, were likeI was getting bullied, a lot
like that kind of thing andtelling myself everything was
gonna be okay.
But what's interesting is when,with the context of our
conversation today in the USthat question it both Me at
three and a half four years old,getting that blood test at the
(53:04):
beginning of that whole, youknow, 11 year relationship with
human growth were bone andmyself and puberty, because
actually, believe it or not, theconversation for another day,
but my puberty kind of like allof that stuff, was very much a
factor in in that experience,and so it was.
(53:28):
It was both.
Those ages came to my mind justnow listening to you answer the
or ask the question, and I'mthinking if I could, if I could
say something to those two partsof me, it would be.
I know this is painful now, butit's gonna.
(53:49):
It's gonna shape who you areand you don't know what that
means yet, but I promise youEverything will be okay.
That's what I would say.
Speaker 3 (54:02):
You just have to trust that, the process how
would those younger versions ofyourself respond to hearing that
?
Speaker 1 (54:09):
well, what I see in my mind is they like hug me,
like they're like comforted bythat yeah yeah, yeah, because
it's like there's so much stressand challenge and like in, like
(54:34):
every day, every day, foreverybody, and I think we deal
with it.
Some of us deal with it.
You know it's easier to dealwith than others, but we all
have it yeah.
But like there's thissimultaneous existence of beauty
that Also exists.
Sometimes it's harder to to tolike bring that into focus, but
(55:03):
like it's there yeah it is sothere in the hard times even in
the hard times, I Think a bigpart of the work I do with my
clients and maybe this, you know, this stems from just like my
(55:23):
again like a core belief isDoing some reframing, you know,
because, hey, like things reallylook like a bunch of Maybe it
might feel like a bunch ofmanure right now, and it is.
It is easier to point outbeauty, beauty for other people
(55:44):
right when you're not living init, which is also, I think, of
the beauty of therapy.
Yeah and the benefit of therapyis having somebody objectively,
you know, walk you through yourlife with you.
But yeah, that's a big, bigpart of the work I do is like I
can see it, part in the pun.
Speaker 3 (56:04):
When I Talk to people about like my job, my office
and whatever my life looks likeas a therapist, etc.
And I go oh yeah, my my.
I know you don't like when Icall you my boss, I say what am
I?
Speaker 1 (56:19):
You're my boss.
Speaker 3 (56:20):
Yeah, this is my, my boss is blind and like what
You're like, like, how blind,and I know you well enough.
I don't think it'd be offendedby this, but I was like, like
the cane, the dog, like.
The whole thing like reallyshe's really blind.
Yeah, like they're like, oh mygod, I could never see her as a
(56:40):
therapist.
I was like why?
And they're like my problemsdon't matter.
They're like how could I sitdown across from her?
And and you know, like I wouldlike I could.
I feel so bad and what I alwayspush back them is like, if
that's true, maybe you realizethat your superficial problems
don't matter, but you'd be thebest person to have you get to
(57:02):
the heart of it.
Well you really help you get tothe next step.
Speaker 1 (57:06):
Wow, that's an, you know it's.
It's interesting.
It's interesting big.
Yeah, that's that's.
I Don't realize that.
I just had a client that I'vebeen seeing for two years tell
me that she was.
She made an appointment with me.
She had talked to multipletherapists, consults, and we had
a nice console and she said,god, I really love talking to
(57:28):
you.
I'm that, I think I really wantto schedule an appointment.
She called her adult son it waslike 30 and was like I'm gonna
go see this therapist, but she'sblind and I'm kind of scared
and Her someone's like I'd bescared too Like what is it gonna
be like?
She's like I don't know whatshould I do?
Like what's it gonna be like?
(57:49):
And she just told me this liketwo sessions ago she goes, you
just get it.
You just you just get it.
She goes.
You know I hope you are, youaren't offended that I and I
said no, I, you know, I feltthankful that she did, are that
she shared her, her fears of me.
But it is interesting because,you know, I don't, I don't know
(58:11):
any different.
All right, I Really would alsolike to use this platform, this
podcast platform, as, like youknow, like an opportunity to
also, like you know, educatepeople on differences amongst
human beings and like educatingpeople on on that right like Not
in like a weird way, but justyou know the mostly the
(58:35):
blindness.
Like helping people to likede-stigmatizing that for people
a little bit so that people havea healthier, like more
comprehensive, understanding ofwhat what it actually looks like
.
So, all right, that was great,all right, kim.
Speaker 3 (58:50):
Well, thanks for going first.
Speaker 1 (58:52):
Well, one of us had to go and I'm glad it wasn't me.
Thanks for listening.
Speaker 3 (58:57):
See you later.
We want to thank you so muchfor listening to today's episode
.
If anything in today's episodespoke to you, please like.
Subscribe great review.
Also, don't forget to sharethis podcast with friends and
family.
Speaker 1 (59:10):
And if there's anybody that you know that you
think would be a great guest onintuitive choices, please email
us at intuitive dot choices dotpodcast at gmailcom.
Finally, if you want to knowmore about our mental health
practice, intuitive counselingand wellness, please check us
out at intuitive counseling ofPhilly comm.
Hey everybody, I'm Kimberly Dobbs.
Speaker 3 (00:06):
And I'm Jacob Miller.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
And we'd like to welcome you to another episode
of Intuitive Choices.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
Kim and I are mental health therapists working in
Philadelphia.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
But wait, jacob, that's not all we are.
I mean, I'm blind and you're anOrthodox too.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Yes, kim, that's correct.
That's why this podcast isinteresting.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
But what really makes this podcast interesting is
that each week we invite a guestto speak about how their own
intuitive choices have led themto live a more meaningful life.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
We hope that this conversation encourages you to
make meaningful choices in yourown life.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Alright, off we go.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Let's do it.
Would you mind introducingyourself?
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Sure, well, I'm Kimberly Dobbs and I am 40 years
old and I am a mental healththerapist in the great city of
Philadelphia.
That's right, I've been atherapist for 17 years and I
(01:02):
have a group practice in CenterCity, philly, philadelphia, and
what's it?
Called, and it's calledintuitive counseling and
wellness.
I have a fabulous guide dognamed Ursula who gets me to, and
I'm a pro, and I've got twoincredible teenage kids and I'm
(01:28):
blind.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Yeah, were you always blind?
Speaker 1 (01:32):
No, I went blind over time from a condition called
retinitis pymintosa, so it is adegenerative eye condition of
the retina and so it's a geneticcondition.
Although nobody in my familyhas it and it for me, and it's
(01:53):
so interesting because it soundslike such a rare disease or
condition or whatever you wantto call it, it is not that rare.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
What's not that rare look like.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
I think a few million people have it in the world and
it's just more common than youthan you think and it started
for me and it looks differentlylike from person to person from.
Rp person to RP person.
It's like it doesn't show upexactly the same.
(02:31):
RP is the people who have it.
Yeah, we'll call it RP from noone.
And when I was younger, Ialways had a night blindness, so
I wasn't able to see in thedark.
But the funny thing is likethis was just like a totally.
This was like just normal.
Like, oh, kim can't see in thedark and it's fine.
I went to sleep boy camp allsummer as a kid.
(02:52):
It was just like this normalthing.
Kim has night blindness andnobody ever really thought
anything of it.
And then one day, my freshmanyear of high school, I was a
homecoming homecoming dance andI went to the homecoming
incoming dance and it was dark,of course, and this is not the
first dark event I've ever beento, but it was like the first
(03:14):
dark event I went to where Ithought like this sucks, like I
can't see anything and I love todance.
I should like say that.
So the dance is over.
My mother comes to pick us up,my friends and I, and I say to
her look, can we figure outwhat's going on with this night
blindness?
I really want to, like weshould see if there's anything
(03:36):
they can do for us.
At this point I'm like in a 14years old, 14 and a half.
So my mother takes me to aretina specialist down in Miami,
because that's where we'reliving down in Florida at the
time and I did all these testsall day.
I don't remember much about it,I just remember it was
uncomfortable and it was hoursand hours and they pulled my mom
into another room.
(03:57):
What was uncomfortable about it,like what kind of the tests are
really different now becauseit's 2023 versus 1998, but they
were like they would they likeput this like contact, this like
plastic contact, kind of insidemy eye but like outside my eye,
and it was all this gel so like, if you can imagine, just your
(04:17):
eyes are just wildly irate, likeit's just irritated, and these
tests took hours and you had asight to sit in one spot, like
looking at bright lights, likeit was hours of these like tests
and again they're verydifferent.
Now I had the Marie Dunn, liketwo years ago, and I was like
wow, technology has come a longway.
(04:38):
Because I was dreading it, youknow, and so they didn't tell me
.
They didn't tell me what I.
They just told me I hadsomething called rod cone
dystrophy, which is somethingelse other than retinitis.
It was another condition.
They're very similar to eachother, but either way, they told
.
They told me this Internet wasnot really a thing, like it's
(04:59):
not, like I went, I could gohome and Google it and they said
to me in front of my mom lateron they said, oh, you know,
there are support groups forthis, so we get home that night
and I was like mom, like Ireally want to join a support
group.
It would really cool to likemeet people who are, like, also
night blind, and she never toldme that the prognosis was
blindness.
(05:20):
She never told me that it's dayblindness.
Yeah, it would lead toeventually lead to blindness.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Did you know how long ?
Speaker 1 (05:29):
I didn't know anything.
I didn't know anything.
She didn't tell me anything.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Did the doctors tell your parents, like I have?
Speaker 1 (05:33):
no idea I'm going to get to that.
So my mom doesn't tell meanything.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
And this was what was her mood like?
Could you tell her?
Speaker 1 (05:41):
No, just kind of just nothing.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
Matter of fact, we just went to the doctors.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
We went to the doctors.
We have this name for it.
There's nothing they can doabout the night blindness, but
and there's a support group forit.
That's all I knew.
Okay.
And then at the end of what wasit?
My freshman year of high school, so that was the beginning of
my freshman year of the end offreshman year, my mother gets
diagnosed with cancer no cancer,so like April or May of that
(06:10):
year, so it was 97 to 98.
, so I got the dates a littlemixed up, but either way.
So she gets diagnosed withcancer and then she ended up
dying like nine months later.
Oh my gosh In January of 1999.
And I'm saying this because allthe while, like she still did,
wls, going blind, so goingthrough that, everything happens
(06:32):
with that.
And then one day and Iliterally happened this way I
woke up in the morning, mysenior year of high school, and
I opened my eyes and somethinglooked.
It just looked different.
Just what I, the view lookeddifferent.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Like blurrier, less crisp.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
It's hard to even say .
I think it was.
I don't even know.
People have asked me that Idon't even know how to describe
it.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
I was off.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
I knew it was off.
I something was off.
I kept holding my hand over oneeye and then going back and
forth and being like somethingis not right.
And I look in the mirror andI'm like my reflection just
doesn't look the same.
And you know I'm I had, I was acontact user, like contact lens
user, and you know, justsomething felt different.
(07:18):
So I call up my aunt and I'mlike, look, something's wrong
with my eyes.
I don't know what it is.
So my dad and my aunt fly me upto the Wilmar Institute of
Johns Hopkins in Maryland and Igo through that entire day of
testing again like three yearslater, and this time the doctor
(07:39):
was like, ok, you have retinitispymotosa.
So it's like, officially, whatI have is retinitis pymotosa.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
What's the second word?
Speaker 1 (07:45):
So it's pigmentosa P I G M E N T O S A pigmentosa.
So she says this is what I have, and my twin sister was with me
too.
So it's like my aunt and myuncle, my twin, myself, and
she's like so, unfortunately,this, this is a degenerative
condition, which means that youwill continue to lose more of
(08:08):
your eyesight.
And my twin, in a very like youknow, very exacerbated, was
like well, how long does shehave?
And I just looked at my sisterand was like we got this, like
let me.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
So I were you so calm in that moment.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
I had a similar conversation three weeks prior
to my mom dying with heroncologist, because everybody
was sort of like she's going tolive, she's going to live, and I
just had this incredible,incredible gut feeling that she
was dying.
And I had had that feeling formonths.
And finally we, the oncologist,came to the house and I just
(08:48):
looked at him, very similarly tothe way that I did with the eye
doctor, and I said is my motherdying?
And he's like, well, she has,you know, she's, she's very,
very sale.
He didn't want to tell thisteenager that is not that her
mom was dying.
So I just said I was like canyou just tell me?
Like I just need to know, likeI need this information.
(09:09):
And he said yeah, he just saidyes, and I said, well, how long
does she have?
Maybe three weeks?
And I said OK, and then Ilooked at him and I put my hand
up and I said do you mind if Icry for a minute?
He said sure, and so I put myhead down and I cried and then I
said thank you, and I literallysaid thank you, and I got up
(09:31):
and went into my bedroom youknow when cried, and this felt
similarly, although I didn'thave a moment, I didn't, I
didn't cry, but I did say so.
So, yeah, what's, what's like,what's the timeline?
And she said, well, a lot ofpeople, that a lot of women,
when they, when they getpregnant, for some reason, we
(09:52):
don't really understand why, butthey, they lose a lot of their
eyesight when they are pregnant.
And which makes sense to me nowbecause I'm like, ok, because
like a lot of your nutrients,right, or it's dead, you know it
goes to the baby, right yeah?
And and that was true, that didhappen with both my pregnancies,
my my significant vision losshappened in both my pregnancies.
(10:14):
And and she said but for themost part, most people are like
fully blind, I mean they'll havelike light perception, which I
do have, by the age of 40.
That was pretty pretty spot on.
So and I said, ok, and you know, a part of me maybe feels like
maybe I kind of knew that, likeI knew that this wasn't going to
(10:36):
like get any better.
Also, when you're 17 years old,40 years old feels like an
eternity away, like it didn'tfeel scary to me.
I remember not feeling scared.
I remember feeling bummed outand upset, but I didn't feel
scared For me.
I started to kind of go well,what do I then?
(10:58):
What do I want to do with mylife?
Like, if I'm going to be blind,how, how does that, how does
that life look?
And so I decided I was going tobe a therapist, because how do
you get from one to the other?
When you say what do you mean?
Speaker 3 (11:16):
how do you get from?
I'm going to be blind, so Iwill be a therapist.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
I was going to college.
I was about to go to college toto go to the University of
Rhode Island for school and youknow, I knew I'd have to pick a
major and I knew I loved talkingto people, I love connecting
with people, and I knew that Ineeded to, like I say this but I
(11:46):
don't necessarily believe thisnow as a 40 year old like, oh, I
had to pick a career at 17,.
But that's like that was thenarrative, right, that was, you
know, I was like that's what Iwas.
Like, oh, you have to pick acareer.
Like I have to know what I'mgoing to be when I grow up.
I have to know what I'm doinghere.
I'm not because I'm going, notjust because I'm going blind,
but because, like that's justsort of like what was kind of
taught to me.
(12:06):
So I'd always wanted to be ateacher.
So that's a, that's a piece ofinformation I forgot, I left out
.
So I wanted to be a teacher,like a high school teacher.
And so I changed my mind andthought, well, I really like
people.
I'll become a therapist becauseI won't need eyesight to do
(12:27):
therapy.
I don't need eyesight to talkto people.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
I am personally grateful that's the decision
that you made in that moment,but I have to imagine you would
have been able to be a teacher.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I think you know I've thoughtabout it here and there in the
last like 10 years, not goingback to teaching but being like,
oh, I could have done that.
That that would have been okay.
But you know, again, it waslike it wasn't like I was like
asking people.
I wasn't like, you know, Ididn't, I didn't do any kind of
informational interviewing.
I was kind of like I was alonein that process, like really
(13:03):
alone in that process.
You know, like, okay, I'm goingto like go to college, I'm
going to, you know, pick a major, I'm going to pick a career and
I'm going to pursue that.
And I'm going to do thatknowing that at some point I
won't be able to see anymore.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Do you think there was something about knowing you
were going to overcome thehardship of losing your vision
on top of overcoming thehardship of having lost your
mother, that you thought youwould have something to offer to
people in therapy that would bedifferent than you as a teacher
?
Speaker 1 (13:42):
No, not a conscious thought.
You hear the question yeah.
Okay.
Yeah, even if it wasn'tconscious.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Even it wasn't conscious.
Do you think?
Speaker 1 (13:48):
I think that that potentially, like unconsciously,
that could have been happening,but I was.
I would say um no, I would saythat started to become um no.
I remember thinking throughgrad school that I was really,
(14:08):
and in college I was reallyfascinated with with death and
dying.
So I minored in Thanatology.
That transition of life todeath is really extraordinary,
like really incredible.
And so you know, I hadconsidered like going into like
just exclusively griefcounseling, things like this.
(14:31):
You know, bereavement work, soin that way I think it kind of,
but like that's that feels likemore like surface, not like this
, like deep undercurrent of likeI feel like because of my life
experiences, I can add value inthis very particular way as a
therapist.
That didn't happen.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
I um, I know you've thought about this a lot, or at
least like this is like this,like you told the story before.
I know it's only makes sense.
It just I think there's a depththere that is really profound,
because, I think it again, youcould have just stayed being a
(15:12):
teacher.
I think that it almost feelslike a, like a, really a cosmic
shift or something miraculous,like, oh no, this is what I'm
doing instead, because I heardthis information.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
That feels.
That feels more right than like, whether it was conscious or
unconscious, it it to me it itfeels like more of like a like
you, like you just said almostcosmic, or like like a universal
kind of like shift into thisother direction.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Like it's so interesting, it's like a calling
yeah, yeah, it would havehappened anyway, even though you
hadn't gone to the doctor,right, yeah, but by going to the
doctor and hearing theinformation the way you did when
you did it, it crystallized apath for you that hadn't been
perceptible before.
Yep, so you're at school.
Yeah.
(15:59):
You become a therapist, youmove from Rhode Island to where.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
I, so I graduated college.
That was the other thing I did.
I graduated college in threeyears.
How come?
It was interesting, I'll say itdifferently.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
What led to that choice?
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Yeah, no, that's a great thought.
I love that.
Yeah, I kind of accelerated mylife a bit.
I, I, I don't want to ever takeaway from what it could be like
to get a terminal diagnosis, aterminal illness kind of thing,
but it, I think it was a littlelike that for me, like, oh, I've
(16:44):
got to like do these thingsbecause this is how much this is
like what's going to happen.
So, again, like my firstsemester, freshman year, I was
like I'm going to graduate inthree years and I did.
I, my now ex husband, slashhusband, emeritus slash friend
(17:06):
David, and I got engaged my lastyear of college.
I was 21 years old.
I got married at 22.
And I remember like having veryintentional conversations about
having children, young, younger, because I literally said, okay
, I'm going to like this isprobably going to make me go
(17:27):
blind and I'd rather have moreeyesight on the front end of
this than not.
Then then when the kids, youknow, when I am older and I'm
already blind.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
So that is.
It is such a wild decision tohave children to begin with and
everyone knows they give thingsup when they have children but
to know the likelihood of youalso giving up vision as part of
that trade, I can't comprehendthat.
(17:59):
I know that's what happened,you know but, I, just can't.
And it's so interesting.
It's interesting because, likeeveryone gives up things when
they decide to have children andif they don't, then they're
very disappointed when thechildren arise and they see what
they can't do anymore.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
But to know that at the front end, Thank you for
saying you know, no one's eversaid that to me before.
Really.
Yeah, yeah, I never, I never,yeah, I quite literally have
never thought about it like thatat all.
I thought about it like likehow can actually kind of
(18:38):
circling back to what you weretalking about about this like
harmony between meaning andpragmatics?
and practicality around, likeokay, what can make this?
And again, I don't think thiswas like like I'm talking about
this very, very practicallyright now and it was not.
I remember sitting down withDavid and saying I really want
(19:01):
to try to have another childWe'd had Molly already and he
was like I don't know if we canafford it.
You know the same conversationsI think all of my new, my new
mom slash dad clients are havingright now around like you know,
the financial, you knowchallenges around children and
those kinds of things.
And he's like I really don'tthink we can afford it.
And I said to him I don't know,like maybe this is the benefit
(19:24):
of being 26 that I said I thinkit'll work out, like I just, I
think it'll be fine.
You know, let's just, I really.
I remember crying to him andbeing like I really I really
think we need to do this now.
And he said okay.
And then we, you know, thankGod, we, we really, we really
(19:50):
very thankfully did not have weeasily got pregnant with both of
our kids.
And then God had very healthypregnancies with both of my
children and and that was thehardest one that pregnancy not
the pregnancy wasn't hard, but Istarted using like a cane, a
white cane, like right afterhaving Alex your second, your
(20:16):
second child?
Yes, and and you know it's funnyI have three siblings.
Two of them are older and oneis my twin sister nobody has it.
By the way, nobody has this,can, nobody has blindness in my
family and they all have youngerkids.
My twin sister has a six yearold, my brother has a nine month
old and a two year old and myother sister has a three and a
(20:38):
half year old son and I spendtime with them a lot.
Right, we're all really closeand it's like man, thank God.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
thank God because Thank God for what's with us.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Thank God that I had my kids with more eyesight on
the front end, like it's just,it's a weird thing to be around
really, really young children.
Look, it is not to say that Icouldn't handle being a mom,
blind, I think.
Look, I don't think blindersshould stop us from doing
anything.
I always say we're not disabled, we're differently abled.
(21:15):
But it's sure as hell is easier.
So to have a 15 year old and a13 year old when I'm blind, you
know, and versus having a threeyear old and a five year old
being blind, totally different.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
So I cannot begin to imagine taking care of my three
and a half month old son withany less senses than I currently
have.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Yeah, I mean, it's a thing right, like, would it be
possible?
Yeah, but like again, you know,would it have been harder?
Yes, yeah, that's a unique.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
You appreciate how unique that mindset is of even
knowing like it would bepossible.
What experiences have you hadin your life that afforded you
the ability to choose themindset of?
It would have been harder, butit would have been possible.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
So you're telling me that having the mindset of it
would have been harder butpossible is interesting to you.
Very.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (22:29):
Why?
What's the what, the counterquestion?
You don't think it's a.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Tell me why you think it's interesting, and then I
think I'll be able to answeryour question better.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
It is interesting because I think that's one of
the points of this podcast.
How can people cultivate amindset like that?
Okay.
That it doesn't matter if itwould be harder, it's still
possible, cause I think thedefault mindset of most people I
meet in general and the peopleI meet in my work as a therapist
(22:55):
.
They get stuck when harderimmediately becomes impossible.
And the work we do is say no,no, no, no, definitely harder,
acknowledging it's harder stillpossible.
That's all the work we're doing.
Not all of it, but asignificant portion.
Yep, harder, I'm not going totake it away from you.
I'm not going to say it's notharder, acknowledging it's
(23:17):
harder, in fact.
Maybe I'll show you how it'seven harder than you acknowledge
which is why you feel it'simpossible.
Let's give you more insight onactually how hard it is.
Now we can approach it, figureout what to do so, the mindset
that seemingly manifested in youmore naturally than others.
(23:37):
Yep, that would have beenharder, but still possible.
How do you get there?
Speaker 1 (23:44):
I think I've had, I think I had, a lot of
experiences in my life that werehard, and what's coming to me
is something else about me isI'm also only four foot 10.
Okay.
And I'm saying that because atlike three years old, I wasn't
(24:12):
even on the growth chart fromlike what I was told.
I was so small that I wasn'teven.
I was like wasn't even on thegrowth chart, whatever that
means.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
And you're saying that in and of itself is like
what have been a thing.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Well, it was.
Yeah, like you know, when wetalk about percentiles, like
with your son Akiva, and you'relike, oh, he's in the top
percentiles, I like was in thelowest percentile, if not, like
even on the, there was like a,you know, a growth chart of like
where you're supposed to be ata certain age and.
I like, was so small that Iwasn't even on it.
Okay.
And my parents decided this wasthe early 80s that they were
(24:50):
going to put me a part of like apilot program for human growth
hormone, and so I still rememberit.
I had to go to a hospital.
I was three and a half yearsold and I called it the blue
thing.
I don't even know what it was.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
The hospital was the blue thing or the treatment.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
The treat, the, the test I had to take.
It was a an ongoing multi hourblood test, maybe like two or
three hours, and now I know itwas.
It was an IV and they wrapped,blew something around like a
blue brace around my arm to keepthe IV in, because I was so
(25:33):
little.
I remember it, I remember whatit looked like, I remember the
waiting room.
I remember the place that inthe waiting room.
I remember crying every timethey brought me, but I have a
very good memory.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
I remember crying.
That's also something like yourmemory is incredible and I have
to imagine that also has helpedin.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
I maybe.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
But I don't think it's a maybe.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
I can't cause you I like yeah, I'll let you keep
going.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
The point of this, the reason why I'm telling you
this, is because I remember allof those things and I remember
crying every time they drew myblood cause I thought it was
painful, even though it probablywasn't painful.
That test determined that I wasnot actually growth hormone
deficient.
But this is the 80s and I don'tknow.
But I, my parents, were able toput me apart of this pilot
(26:30):
program and I got human growthhormone, anyway, and I had to
take an injection every otherday, and these were
intramuscular, which meant thatthey were, they would go into
the muscle.
And, again the 80s, theseneedles were not very, very thin
, they were very thick, and mymother had to give me this
injection before school everyother day, to the point where,
(26:53):
like, I wouldn't even be able towalk up the stairs because so,
and we did this for years and Itook these injections for years.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
Okay, you do you feel like you were actively choosing
to take those injections?
I was not.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
In fact I actively did not want to take those
injections.
But to circle back to youroriginal question around, like
this is harder but it's possible.
Like you know, it's I've that,I think significantly,
significantly shaped.
It's not my mother dying, it'snot the blindness.
(27:35):
I actually think it was goingthrough that experience of being
really really small,internalizing that this is not
okay.
Like my physically, who I am,is like not okay.
So we're going to like dowhatever we can to make this
better for you.
And even though I didn't want,it was very painful and it
(27:59):
continued to be painful and andyou know, for year, I mean, I
took these injections for years,how many years?
About about 11 years, 11 years,11 years till I was 15 years old
.
So you know, and it didn't, itwasn't always it was
(28:21):
intramuscular, but you know andmaybe it's a conversation for
another day you know kind oftransition to like you know, you
know the injections were alittle bit easier because they
weren't intramuscular injections, but then there were every day.
It was like a whole thing.
But the point is, is that itwas like this, this again, I
don't think this is like adirect connection of like okay,
this thing is like why have thismindset of like?
(28:42):
Just because it's harderdoesn't mean it's not possible.
But I think going through thatlike and like, like it was, it
was hard, you know what I mean.
And and I like in some weirdway, like I remember thinking
like kind of a badass because Igive myself injections and like
(29:05):
I'm kind of like I'm tough, youknow.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
You are tough.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
And it was like this.
It was just the way that wholeexperience again, I don't know,
I don't know specifically,because, again, it's not like.
It's like, oh, because it just,you know, it makes me think
things are possible.
It wasn't that.
I just think that that shapedme to being able to persevere
(29:29):
despite that it like wasn't okay, like I didn't like it, I
didn't like it, it didn't.
I remember thinking like isthis even helping?
Like I'm still short as f***you know what I'm saying Like
but yeah, so, but that's that'sliterally what I thought.
I thought like I would think itlike it's still so short, like
(29:51):
I don't even know if this isworking, but I'm still doing
this anyway, so, yeah, so that's, that's a, that's like a nice
detour to like you know, justgive you a little bit more of my
background and like I thinksome of the things that like
shaped who I am and why I am.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
There's a benefit in.
I think, really think there's agift in knowing how hard life
is, and I think people try toconvince themselves either it's
not hard or that it shouldn't behard.
I don't think it should hasanything to do with it.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
You know I really embody this idea that hardship
it's all relative to only yourown experience.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
Oh, for sure.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
So for me, like sure, I get like, look, I'm a
therapist, right, so I mean Italk to people about their own
hardships all the time and youknow, by comparison, I'm just
like wow, and also, you know,it's, it's we only know what
we're living.
You know, I mean, sure, like wehave empathy and I mean most of
(30:51):
us do and so I can trulyempathize.
I can, I am a very empatheticperson, even empathic, you know.
But like just not comparingyourself to other people and
being like, okay, like this ishard for me, right, it doesn't
have to be relative to anythingelse.
That you're your you're, youare your own benchmark.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
Frustration is frustration and every emotion
you feel is eternal.
Yeah.
What's interesting to me aboutour conversations and about the
podcast and about our work astherapists is we have
conversations that transmitcommunal knowledge of how to
(31:36):
overcome hardship conceptually,so that when you face it
literally, it eases the process.
Yeah, that's.
That's, I think, more miraculousthan people give credit to, and
I think one of the primarybenefits of us being therapists
is that we learn About a segmentof the human experience of
(32:00):
overcoming hardship all day longwhen we need with different
clients and what we can do is,as the nexus of those
conversations is not only shareprinciples of psychology and
Therapy that can help people,but we we are like we hold
communal knowledge of the whatpeople are coming to us with and
we can.
Think, ah, I one client wentthrough something similar and
(32:20):
this helped them intuitively.
Let me share something thatthey had said with you that they
would.
You would never come up inconversation because it may be
too intimate, too hard, but likewe can Transmit that
information for people, I thinkthat's our hope for the podcast
also.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Yeah, a hundred percent agree, and even from our
, I think even even pulling fromour own, our own life
experiences.
Speaker 3 (32:42):
Yeah you know, this may not be relevant, but
actually I bet it is relevant.
I just don't know how to bringit up in a more natural segue.
Can you talk to me a little bitabout your grandmother and how
she may have been Significant orhelpful in the hardships that
you yourself faced orimpediments that you yourself
(33:04):
faced?
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Yeah, it's.
It's funny you bring her up,because a few minutes ago I was
actually thinking about her as Iwas talking Um.
So my grandmother, grandmaFanny, she is going to be 93
years old In 11 days.
Wow and she is a survivor ofthe Holocaust.
(33:25):
She.
What she experienced was Reallyreally, really crazy.
Can't get into it now, but yeah, hmm.
But what's interesting is thatAbout a month and a half ago I
(33:45):
had a bar mitzvah for my son andshe hadn't she hadn't, like,
left her house in three yearsbecause, you know, we were all
dealing with a pandemic and shetraveled up here to the
Philadelphia area from FloridaTo see her great-grandson Be bar
(34:06):
mitzvah for people who don'tknow what bar mitzvah is, what's
the significance Like?
Speaker 3 (34:10):
why would she be willing to go so far?
And I'm gonna defer to youbecause no, no, this year your
son's bar mitzvah.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Well it's, it's a pretty significant rite of
passage into Judaism.
It's it's when the Jewish boybecomes a man at 13 years old,
and there's a ceremony thatcomes along with that, where the
Jewish boy or girl becausethere's spot mitzvah now too,
(34:38):
although that's a relativelynewer Tradition they will read
from the Torah, because prior toyour bar or about mitzvah, you
are not to read from the Torah.
That's my understanding, okay.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
It's at those for when a girl is 12 and a boy is
13.
They are not responsible forthemselves.
Yeah, and because they don'thave responsibility, they're not
given privileges or they can'tDo something for someone else.
Reading Torah is actuallyyou're reading Torah on behalf
of the whole congregation, andso because a boy before the age
(35:17):
of 13 is, not obligated inlearning Torah.
Because they're not obligated inanything, they can't do it for
someone else.
But once they themselves becomeobligated and responsible for
themselves, then they can do.
They can be an actor, amessenger.
Yep to carry out the obligationfor someone else, so I I think
(35:40):
this, we, this is.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
This is really great, because I you and I Were both
Jewish.
You are with the docks and I amReconstructionist, which is,
we'll get into it and I'll getinto it.
We'll get into it, and I don'teven know how to explain it, but
I'm, I'm, I.
Sometimes they would say I'mlike a secular juice, so it's
very this is also the reason whyI think we have such
(36:04):
interesting, for for us I'm notnecessarily for everybody else
but why our conversations areinteresting, but anyway, yes.
So my grandmother decided tocome up After the bar mitzvah.
She, she went home and wetalked on the phone and she says
, kimberley, that was the mostbeautiful bar mitzvah I've ever
been to in my entire life she'sbeen to a lot of them and I said
(36:29):
, oh my gosh, grandma, thank you, I can't even believe you came.
I mean, I've said all this toher when she was there.
But and she said I don't knowhow you did it.
I don't know how you pulled offsuch a beautiful bar mitzvah
without being able to see You'rethe most incredible person I
(36:49):
know and I Was like I've neversaid this to my grandmother.
My grandmother never reallyarticulated that sentiment to me
, I don't know.
She said exactly that likeyou're the most it.
But she said yeah it was thatsentiment.
She goes I couldn't believe it.
You're so amazing, you know,you've made so much of your life
.
And then I said you know,grandma, I, I got that from you.
(37:16):
And she said no, no.
I said no, grandma, yes, yes,this is a conversation was like
only like three weeks ago.
I said yes, I did.
I said I really need you toknow like you survived Hitler
and Came to the United States asa 17 year old girl all alone,
(37:44):
and the person that you weresupposed to stay with, your
uncle, had died Like prior, likewhile you were in transit on
the boat on the way to America,and you literally had to create
a life for yourself withoutknowing the language and just
surviving Auschwitz.
And I said that is why I amextraordinary, because you are
(38:09):
extraordinary.
And then she told me that.
Then she said when are yougonna come visit me?
Because you bring light into mylife.
I think she deflected a littlebit, if I'm being honest.
Speaker 3 (38:22):
Yeah, but she's allowed.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
She's allowed, she gets a pass, but it was really,
it was probably the mostprofound Dialogue I'd ever had
with my grandmother, and thathappened just three weeks ago.
So, yeah, I I Think that it is,um, I don't know like when it
that's modeled to you or Ofcourse, are able to manifest it
(38:48):
without it being modeled ofcourse, of course, and and and,
even if it is modeled to youMaybe, maybe it's not the same,
but yeah to me, yeah, I um that,I think it really.
I think it was played a hugerole in In my approach to life
(39:11):
and also, you know, not fornothing, but my grandmother has
really instilled in us.
Like you know, we have aresponsibility as as Jews, you
know, because she survived theHolocaust their responsibility
to what to Continue to carry onJudaism and those kinds of
(39:35):
things.
Right, so that you know topractice Judaism, to carry it on
those kinds of things, yeah, so, not not necessarily saying
that we do or don't, but it wassomething that was really, you
know, encouraged.
Speaker 3 (39:53):
So Maybe that is a unique thing that the Jews do
carry with them.
It's like how to survivebecause, like the Holocaust may
be the most thing that's mostrecent, but there's, like every
generation, there's actuallysomething, yeah, resembling a
Holocaust, and we just keep, wekeep going Yep, that's what we
(40:13):
do, and now they're going.
It's like thriving and yeah andI think you and I I Feel a
similar sentiment, that like notbecause of our Judaism
necessarily, but like we justlove to see people who can
thrive.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
I I love to see, I think I love when, I love when
people thrive, and I think thatI really Love to help people
find Whatever they need to findwithin themselves literally
anyone yeah well, you and I aresimilar that we will help any
(40:51):
single person we meet Be theirbest selves.
Speaker 3 (40:55):
Yeah, even if we disagree with who that best self
might be like on a personallevel, like an Uh, either a
professional level or a levelhigher than our own person hoods
, we just like to see people betheir best selves.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
Yeah, yeah, and like whatever I, I think that
whatever yeah, without withoutinserting what, what my Like,
what my version of a person'sbest self like.
Speaker 3 (41:21):
Yeah, it's yeah, exact without inserting your
version of a person's best self.
What a person feels that theyare thriving?
Yeah, that person is a personthat's filled with like kindness
and and a healthy sense ofcompetition that like is not
like gonna take anything foranyone else.
Those people are givers, thosepeople are conduits of
(41:41):
confidence and respect, andthose that can look radically
different for different people.
Yeah, but you get there Via thechoices that you make.
Yeah we spoke about severalchoices that you made In the
past.
In the episode so far, we spokeabout the choice to
(42:03):
Continuously get your GH yourhuman growth hormone shots and
even though it was hard, you didit anyway and you had the
impression of yourself that youwere bad.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
I felt like I actually didn't have a choice in
that, but yeah so what part ofit did you have a choice in?
Speaker 3 (42:18):
was your mindset yeah , right yeah.
You chose the mindset to getthrough taking the human growth
hormone shots.
Yeah, you chose to havechildren, even though it was
gonna be get the cost of yourvision.
You chose to become a therapistbecause it would maximize your
Desire to speak with people yourgift is speaking with people
(42:38):
and manifesting a career thatwas meaningful to you.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
How do you make those choices?
Are they the same?
Are they different?
Speaker 1 (42:50):
You mean like, where does that come from within me?
Yeah, I think that I don't know.
I think that it comes from aplace of wanting to live and
Knowing what it feels like when,like knowing what joy feels
like and knowing that, for me,joy experiencing joy, I think
(43:15):
that's a good thing.
I think that's a good thing.
I think that's a good thingthat, for me, joy experiencing
joy comes from, you know, livinga life of meaning.
Speaker 3 (43:30):
Is joy, the guiding force in Allowing you to make
those decisions the pursuit ofJoyful moments.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
Yeah, not excitement.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
Yeah, I think.
I think it's a huge dealbecause excitement could be like
I'm gonna go.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
Oh, I'm gonna look for.
I look forward to this trip.
I'm going on.
Speaker 3 (43:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
No, no, it's like deep, satisfactory, meaningful
joy joy Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
There's 10 words for happiness in Hebrew and each has
specific meanings okay.
But the one that most peopleare familiar with, and the one
you may be most familiar with,is Simcha.
Yeah, what's a simcha?
So it's a party you know youhave an assembly.
Yeah but the depth of the wordsimcha is the type of joy that
(44:32):
comes from the process of tryingto manifest something.
Simcha is the joy of theprocess.
Yeah and it's hard.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
But even even when something's hard, the process of
something is hard, like you canstill feel, you can still
experience joy.
Speaker 3 (44:58):
Absolutely yeah, but and I'll say differently you
have to go through somethingthat's hard to experience that
type of joy.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
The pursuit of joy pursuit ofjoy I.
Think it's, it's, it's like itjust drives me.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:20):
And you have clarity on that also.
A lot of people.
It's hard for them to find thatclarity, but there's a pseudo
joy that's really.
That's something.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
Yeah, I and like and also just I just really want to
be very clear.
It's hard to describe what,what joy feels like in the body,
but I can tell you it is, it isnot, it's not, it's not.
It's not excitement, it's not.
I think it's beyond the body,yeah, and I think it's it.
(45:52):
It's like embodied, I don'teven know like it's, like it's
transcendent, yeah, it's, it's,it's for, it's transcendent,
like that's how I mean it,that's, that's.
That's what I feel like joyreally is.
Is this transcendent experiencein your mind, body and your
(46:12):
spirit, that that like it's sofunny, I keep getting this like
vision of my head like that justmakes that just sort of creates
a smile, like literally, like aliteral smile, you know, and it
doesn't have to be a smile, butit's just the feeling of a
(46:35):
smile the feeling of a smile andit's like okay, and I and I
think Somewhere in my 40 yearsearlier, early on, like Lee, I
think I learned early on whatthat feels like, but again not
(46:55):
and not in like this, likeIntoxicating Lee, like I'm
looking for excitement kind ofway.
I really want to be clear aboutthat.
But I think I learned what itfeels like to embody joy.
Speaker 3 (47:06):
It's a meal versus a piece of candy.
Yeah it's more like an entirediet.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
Yeah, oh well for you maybe yeah.
But that's what I, that's,that's what it is, and so for me
it's like.
I think, when you are talkingabout this idea of like, like,
what drives me to have thismindset of like?
You know it's hard, but it'sstill possible, or it's?
Speaker 3 (47:32):
hard, but it's still possible.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
Part of the Still possible participating in life,
even when things get hard.
Or it's like Because at theroot, at like the root of my
existence, on it like a cellularlevel, driving everything like
my engine.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, is like the, thepursuance or pursuit.
(47:57):
What's the word pursuit?
Pursuit of joy, of joy and Like, and and what I've learned, and
not in the so far, you know,like not not that far, not that
long ago, I mean the last 15years or something is Like Mike,
(48:17):
the conduit for that is throughmeaningful experiences.
Speaker 3 (48:26):
So that's what I do that's a deep, a deep truth.
Yeah, there's really a guidingprinciple.
Thank you for giving medifferent language for that,
because it's like it's not justyou know, it's not just like
I've worked with clients andsaid, like to pursue meaning,
yeah, but like that's kind of Isee how short-sighted that is
because it like what do you meanmeaning?
Speaker 1 (48:45):
How do?
Speaker 3 (48:45):
you know it's meaningful, etc.
Because if you're engaging insomething meaningful, it
manifests in a sentiment of joy.
Yeah, I was talking to a friendover Over the weekend on
Shabbat, on the Sabbath, andhe's a very deep guy.
I asked him how Does he know hehe Achieve that meaning, he he
(49:16):
achieved a level of depth in a,in a in Jewish prayer.
Mm-hmm.
Like how do you go?
How does he know?
He went beyond saying the words, like actually accomplishing
his goal of the prayer, becauseprayer and Judaism is not just
like, it's actually prayers, nota good translation, the word is
actually self-reflection.
Speaker 1 (49:34):
Yeah, so how do you?
Speaker 3 (49:35):
know you, appropriately self-reflected
Mm-hmm, and he says when he,when he steps Because when Jews
pray they stand at the pinnacleof the prayer when he steps away
from his moment of prayer, fromhis self-reflection, when he
thinks he did it well, he gets ajust the feeling of that was
(49:59):
right or I am more aligned withmyself than I was before I
stepped into it.
And I think that's what you'retalking about.
When you, when youappropriately self reflect and
align yourself with who you'resupposed to be, it is Very
difficult and at times evenpainful, but when you do it with
the best intentions and withthe right mindset, you step away
(50:23):
from having made that decisionwith that feeling of joy.
Speaker 1 (50:27):
Maybe not right away, but it gets you yeah,
definitely not right away, butit gets you.
Speaker 3 (50:34):
Yep, that was great.
I had one more question I wantto ask you, but that, I think,
is a nice place to wrap up.
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (50:43):
Yeah, I mean you can ask me the question and we can
always cut it out.
Speaker 3 (50:46):
Yeah, I feel like this is a little silly at this
point, but I still want to askthe question If you could time
travel and you had five minutesto meet a younger version of
yourself, which version ofyourself would you meet with and
what would you say to her?
Speaker 1 (51:08):
When you texted me your questions and you were like
I don't love them, I had afeeling that you might have been
referring to that question.
No, that's the one I like themost okay good, because that's
the one I loved the most too,and Even, just even, just like
closing my eyes and visualizingMe at different parts of my life
(51:30):
.
It was I like I get emotionallybeen even just thinking about
it.
It's like a very, very, veryevocative Question.
I think it's even moreemotional for me Talking Like
having this whole conversationtoday, that's doing this episode
(51:52):
with you and then and thenanswering this question at the
end.
Mm-hmm, when I read thequestion originally before we,
like this morning, when you sentme the questions, the, it was
me at 11 and and it was just avery simple like everything will
(52:15):
be okay Because 11 and 12 was.
That was a difficult time, youknow, of like going through
puberty and Dealing with likeNot really liking what I looked
like.
You know, and you know lots andlots of people at that at my, at
(52:41):
that time of my life, were likeI was getting bullied, a lot
like that kind of thing andtelling myself everything was
gonna be okay.
But what's interesting is when,with the context of our
conversation today in the USthat question it both Me at
three and a half four years old,getting that blood test at the
(53:04):
beginning of that whole, youknow, 11 year relationship with
human growth were bone andmyself and puberty, because
actually, believe it or not, theconversation for another day,
but my puberty kind of like allof that stuff, was very much a
factor in in that experience,and so it was.
(53:28):
It was both.
Those ages came to my mind justnow listening to you answer the
or ask the question, and I'mthinking if I could, if I could
say something to those two partsof me, it would be.
I know this is painful now, butit's gonna.
(53:49):
It's gonna shape who you areand you don't know what that
means yet, but I promise youEverything will be okay.
That's what I would say.
Speaker 3 (54:02):
You just have to trust that, the process how
would those younger versions ofyourself respond to hearing that
?
Speaker 1 (54:09):
well, what I see in my mind is they like hug me,
like they're like comforted bythat yeah yeah, yeah, because
it's like there's so much stressand challenge and like in, like
(54:34):
every day, every day, foreverybody, and I think we deal
with it.
Some of us deal with it.
You know it's easier to dealwith than others, but we all
have it yeah.
But like there's thissimultaneous existence of beauty
that Also exists.
Sometimes it's harder to to tolike bring that into focus, but
(55:03):
like it's there yeah it is sothere in the hard times even in
the hard times, I Think a bigpart of the work I do with my
clients and maybe this, you know, this stems from just like my
(55:23):
again like a core belief isDoing some reframing, you know,
because, hey, like things reallylook like a bunch of Maybe it
might feel like a bunch ofmanure right now, and it is.
It is easier to point outbeauty, beauty for other people
(55:44):
right when you're not living init, which is also, I think, of
the beauty of therapy.
Yeah and the benefit of therapyis having somebody objectively,
you know, walk you through yourlife with you.
But yeah, that's a big, bigpart of the work I do is like I
can see it, part in the pun.
Speaker 3 (56:04):
When I Talk to people about like my job, my office
and whatever my life looks likeas a therapist, etc.
And I go oh yeah, my my.
I know you don't like when Icall you my boss, I say what am
I?
Speaker 1 (56:19):
You're my boss.
Speaker 3 (56:20):
Yeah, this is my, my boss is blind and like what
You're like, like, how blind,and I know you well enough.
I don't think it'd be offendedby this, but I was like, like
the cane, the dog, like.
The whole thing like reallyshe's really blind.
Yeah, like they're like, oh mygod, I could never see her as a
(56:40):
therapist.
I was like why?
And they're like my problemsdon't matter.
They're like how could I sitdown across from her?
And and you know, like I wouldlike I could.
I feel so bad and what I alwayspush back them is like, if
that's true, maybe you realizethat your superficial problems
don't matter, but you'd be thebest person to have you get to
(57:02):
the heart of it.
Well you really help you get tothe next step.
Speaker 1 (57:06):
Wow, that's an, you know it's.
It's interesting.
It's interesting big.
Yeah, that's that's.
I Don't realize that.
I just had a client that I'vebeen seeing for two years tell
me that she was.
She made an appointment with me.
She had talked to multipletherapists, consults, and we had
a nice console and she said,god, I really love talking to
(57:28):
you.
I'm that, I think I really wantto schedule an appointment.
She called her adult son it waslike 30 and was like I'm gonna
go see this therapist, but she'sblind and I'm kind of scared
and Her someone's like I'd bescared too Like what is it gonna
be like?
She's like I don't know whatshould I do?
Like what's it gonna be like?
(57:49):
And she just told me this liketwo sessions ago she goes, you
just get it.
You just you just get it.
She goes.
You know I hope you are, youaren't offended that I and I
said no, I, you know, I feltthankful that she did, are that
she shared her, her fears of me.
But it is interesting because,you know, I don't, I don't know
(58:11):
any different.
All right, I Really would alsolike to use this platform, this
podcast platform, as, like youknow, like an opportunity to
also, like you know, educatepeople on differences amongst
human beings and like educatingpeople on on that right like Not
in like a weird way, but justyou know the mostly the
(58:35):
blindness.
Like helping people to likede-stigmatizing that for people
a little bit so that people havea healthier, like more
comprehensive, understanding ofwhat what it actually looks like
.
So, all right, that was great,all right, kim.
Speaker 3 (58:50):
Well, thanks for going first.
Speaker 1 (58:52):
Well, one of us had to go and I'm glad it wasn't me.
Thanks for listening.
Speaker 3 (58:57):
See you later.
We want to thank you so muchfor listening to today's episode
.
If anything in today's episodespoke to you, please like.
Subscribe great review.
Also, don't forget to sharethis podcast with friends and
family.
Speaker 1 (59:10):
And if there's anybody that you know that you
think would be a great guest onintuitive choices, please email
us at intuitive dot choices dotpodcast at gmailcom.
Finally, if you want to knowmore about our mental health
practice, intuitive counselingand wellness, please check us
out at intuitive counseling ofPhilly comm.
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