August 8, 2023 • 49 mins
Can you find comfort in the unknown? Tune in to this inspiring episode of Intuitive Choices as we host the fearless Gloria Ginsberg, who exemplifies living life on her own terms. Gloria bravely opens up about her life's journey, from an introspective childhood to her philosophical outlook which has steered her towards a peaceful acceptance of life's uncertainties. Her candid recollections of a challenging past, marked by surviving incest and learning to advocate for herself, are truly empowering.
As we delve into Gloria's world, we explore the transformative power of setting personal boundaries. She provides a fresh perspective on maintaining independence within a long-lasting marriage and the significant role of interdependence in her life. Gloria's story is a testament to the resilience of the human spirit even in the face of adversity. Her wisdom and experiences offer valuable life lessons and inspiring insights into facing the unknown with confidence and peace. Listen in as Gloria Ginsberg masterfully paints a picture of an intuitive life lived boldly.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey everybody, I'm Kimberly Dobbs.
Speaker 3 (00:06):
And I'm Jacob Miller.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
And we'd like to welcome you to another episode
of Intuitive Choices.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
Kim and I are mental health therapists working in
Philadelphia.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
But wait, jacob, that's not all we are.
I mean, I'm blind and you're anOrthodox too.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Yes, kim, that's correct.
That's why this podcast isinteresting.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
But what really makes this podcast interesting is
that each week we invite a guestto speak about how their own
intuitive choices have led themto live a more meaningful life.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
We hope that this conversation encourages you to
make meaningful choices in yourown life.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Alright, off we go.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Let's do it.
Hey, everyone just wanted tolet you know that today's
episode covers a briefdiscussion of recovering from a
sexual assault and therefore maynot be appropriate for all
listeners.
And, without further ado,please enjoy the episode.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
I'm Kimberly Dobbs.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
And I'm Jacob Miller.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
And we'd like to welcome you to Intuitive Choices
.
And today we are so honored andprivileged to welcome our guest
, a woman by a woman by the nameof Gloria Ginsburg.
She's joining us today.
Kind of serendipitously, I washaving a conversation with a
dear friend of mine who happensto be Gloria's granddaughter,
(01:19):
and this, this particularperson's name is Antonia, and
while Antonia and I werespeaking, we were on FaceTime
and Gloria and Antonia says tome oh Kim, let me introduce you
to my grandmother.
Her name's Gloria, and before Iknew it, I was on a FaceTime
call with this, with thisamazing woman, and she was
telling me that she was tellingme that she had recently moved
(01:43):
from Southern California toNorthern California.
And then, gloria, you saidsomething that struck me.
I'm not sure if you rememberwhat it was that you said that
struck me, but I'm going to justask you do you remember what
you said to me about why youmoved to Northern California?
Speaker 4 (02:01):
Oh, why I moved to be well, I don't know if I
remember it you got to remind mebut at one of the reasons is to
be near my daughter.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
That's right, and and and, gloria, you said to me.
You said, well, I'll tell you.
And you said it's so matter offact.
You said I came here to die.
That's what you said to me.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
Yes, I did say that.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
You did, and when you said that to me, I it really,
it really like hit a chord, apositive one, and I wasn't able
to stop thinking about thatstatement or you for several
days following our conversationand I thought there was
(02:47):
something about what you, howyou, how you said those words to
me that felt to me so peaceful,and I thought I want to hear
more about Gloria, more abouthow she was able to say
something like that was such,seemingly with such confidence
(03:11):
and peace and acceptance, andtherefore started the ball
rolling and inviting you on totalk with Jacob and I about you
and about this process of comingto Northern California and, in
your words, to die.
So I guess we'll start with thefirst question is how did you,
how do you think you were ableto say that with such confidence
(03:32):
?
Tell me, tell us a little more.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
When I think about it .
When I was a little girl, Ithought about dying I.
That's not new to me, it's.
It's stayed in the back of myhead my whole life.
So death is part of living andwas part of me, and that's my
(03:57):
pussy cat talk.
So it I felt that it camecasual enough to be able to say
that.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
So at the same time, gloria it definitely makes sense
.
But in our experience or I willmaybe I won't speak for Kim in
my experience it's not so commonto meet anyone, let alone a
little girl, who's already likecontemplating, you know, the
last stages of life in a waythat allows them to hit those
(04:33):
stages of life with as muchmatter of factness and
confidence as you have.
So would it be?
possible to tell us a little bitmore about, maybe, if you're
comfortable, what was going onas a little girl or what's going
on now.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
When I was a little girl, I was always kind of
philosophical.
I came from a defunct,defunctional home, so I was
always looking for thatspirituality that kept me in a,
(05:10):
a place that I felt comfortablewith.
And when I wouldn't get theanswers and a lot of times I
didn't I say there's alwaystomorrow.
Wow, that's really beautifulyeah, as a little girl, I knew I
wasn't going to die, but as anold lady, haha.
(05:36):
So it's still the same thoughtas a child, only in a decrepit
body.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
And so there's this concept right of dying that you,
that you speak of as a womannow, as you speak of it as a
little girl, right, this, thisconcept of?
Speaker 4 (06:00):
dying.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Yeah, did.
Did you have like in reflection, do you feel like you had as
much peace around this idea ofof death as a little girl as you
do now at 88?
Speaker 4 (06:19):
No, because I don't know what's going to happen.
I don't have peace at knowingwhat's going.
I don't know.
So the I don't know is part ofwho I am my whole life.
Hmm.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Can you so say more about that, the I don't know
Right?
Speaker 4 (06:41):
So well, I'm trying to say the I don't know is part
of my philosophy, you know, andyou know I've always envied not
jealous, but envied people whodid know, because there are so
many religious people in theworld and I wish I had the
(07:05):
answer the way they do theconfidence in the answer the way
that they do?
Exactly.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:11):
Exactly, yeah, yeah, exactly.
I always think maybe they knowmore than me, but when I think
about it, I know that they don'tknow more than me.
They're only humans.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Yeah, so it's really.
What we're talking about ismore of a comfortability with
this idea of not knowing,because nobody really knows.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
That makes me feel better, okay, good.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Yeah, that makes me feel better, then I shouldn't
quit my day job.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
No, no, don't quit your day job, but I don't know
about your night job.
What are?
Speaker 1 (07:54):
you doing this is my night job.
Go ahead and see this podcast.
So, jacob, why don't you askone of the questions and we can
delete?
Speaker 3 (08:04):
this little chat, sure thing.
Okay, yeah, gloria, before Iask my question, I just say I
really am so grateful forspeaking.
I'm just like I reallyappreciate the energy that you
bring into our conversation.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
Thank you, honey, I remember what you said.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Thank you.
So you know, it just so happens.
I myself, like, was aphilosophy major when I was in
college.
I shifted to being a therapistlater on in life, and so I'm
like doing my best to not godown the philosophy route with
you right now.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
You're doing great.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Thank you.
You know when I think aboutwhat it sounds like is you have
a.
You've had a lifetime ofdeveloping your own personal
philosophy of life, of what itdoesn't mean to be.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
Gloria, that is true.
That is true.
I feel that.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
What were some of the can you?
Can you speak to some of thethings that happened in your
life that allowed you to developthat philosophy?
Speaker 4 (09:02):
Well, yes, I can, if it's acceptable, on the radio or
whatever you call this.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
This is a public forum, so it's up to you on how
much you would like to share tothe general public.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
It's been my goal for a number of years now to share
that I was a incest victim, butnow I'm an incest survivor.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Those words really.
I mean, they just hit me, butthey would hit anyone who would
hear them.
So I can't even imagine what ittakes to reach the level of
being a survivor.
How can you even, how did youeven begin that process, and at
what stage did you realize thatyou had transcended into the
(09:55):
state of being a survivor?
Speaker 1 (09:58):
You're speaking from a victim to survivor right.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
Right, I did have physical symptoms that told me
that I can't live like that, andit made me come out of the
closet.
I couldn't close my eyes,literally.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
You mean literally?
Yes, okay.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
What's the difference between literally and
figuratively?
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Literally is, you actually were not able to close
your eyes at any point.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
Okay, that's what I mean.
Wow, that's when I realized Ican't.
I was married, I had justgotten married.
And what happens if my husbandfinds out about it?
I mean, how would I explain it?
Because being in the closetalso means you've got a heavy
(11:00):
duty secret.
Yeah, and that was a secretfrom my husband as well.
Right, so I ended up you'll beproud of this I ended up in a
therapist's office.
Oh yeah, my husband went to USCand he was going to school
(11:27):
there to get his PhD.
University of SouthernCalifornia.
Yeah, okay.
And while we were there, I toldhim I'm going to go to a
therapist and he shouldn't askme why.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Okay, he respected that boundary.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
He did.
He did accept that, and what?
Speaker 1 (11:51):
bravery that took, especially because we also have
to put ourselves back at thattime.
I was just going to ask do youmind letting us know, like
around, what year it was?
Speaker 3 (12:00):
when you went.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
I went to the school therapist.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
So you were, how old roughly I was.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
I just got married, so I was 19.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
So at 19 years old it was probably around 19,.
You know, 49 or 1950.
No, no, no 1955.
1955.
So we're talking in the mid1950s.
This gal, very brave andcourageous brave and
courageously decided okay, theseare these physical symptoms I'm
(12:40):
experiencing as the result ofthis trauma, and decided I need
to work this out.
I'm going to go to a therapist.
And then you told your husbandand don't ask me about it, I'm
just going to go do this thing.
That's great.
Very very ahead of your time,jacob, wouldn't you say?
Speaker 3 (12:57):
I certainly would yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
Well, the unbelievable miracle for me was
when I walked to the door.
I knew I had to do that.
I knew I had to say I am anincest victim.
I just knew it.
Would we call that somethinglike a gut feeling and we like,
(13:22):
on that one hour show, call itan intuitive moment, but to make
a little light of it, I wouldcall it an eye feeling rather
than a gut feeling.
Okay, that's fine.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
But you knew that there was some sort.
There was the.
You hoped that there would be arelief from whatever was going
on with your eyes by speakingthis out to the professional.
Speaker 4 (13:45):
I just wanted to close my eyes.
Yeah, yes, and I walked inthere and I told her that, and I
swear to you, I could close myeyes from there on in, wow.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
It was like somebody up there was leading me to that.
Not me, but somebody up there.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
The phrase I like to use is like something bigger
than we are Right, somethinglike inexplicable that we can't.
Yeah, exactly that just guidedme toward that.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Yeah, and since that time I have experienced little
miracles.
I call them little miraclesbecause then that's something to
be such an eye opener about,and they can always be put in
coincidence, right.
Right, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
I don't know if there's such a thing as a little
miracle.
At the end of the day, I thinkany miracle is a big miracle.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
Yeah, there's magnitude to every miracle, yeah
, but you know, I believe thatwe have little miracles
happening to us every minute,but we don't recognize it
because we don't have time tohow do you make time?
Speaker 1 (15:01):
How did you make time ?
How did you, as Gloria, maketime to recognize these miracles
?
Speaker 4 (15:08):
It's called awareness , and because of awareness I
went to therapy.
Most of my life have gonethrough therapy not now and not
for a long time, but most of mytime yet and it's helped me a
(15:28):
great deal.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
So I want to ask you, because what we didn't say was
that you were recently diagnosedwith pancreatic cancer, right,
right, and we're talking stagefour, okay, Right Stage four.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
you say with a chuckle.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Yeah, interesting Right, tell us why you're
laughing.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
It's a.
To me it doesn't matter.
I don't, because if I had stageone I couldn't fix it.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
Again, you're just displaying the level of
acceptance you have over bothwhat life has given you, and
then there's a level ofacceptance that you have in your
own ability to make the most ofit.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
Oh yeah, I guess that's that's true, to make the
most of it.
Every day I wake up, oh yeah,oh yeah, I yes, and you know
it's a wonderful feeling.
I don't even try.
What's a wonderful feelingRight there.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Can you?
Speaker 4 (16:40):
name it.
What do you?
Speaker 1 (16:41):
say it.
What is, what does that looklike for you?
What do I mean?
It's when you say most of it'sthere, that makes you feel like
laughter, smiling, grateful, andyeah, that's a very personal
(17:01):
thing.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
Yeah, Gloria, I think most people who are far from
from sexual trauma, who are farfrom from an incest trauma, they
would say to themselves like Ican't imagine, like if I would
ever be able to get past that.
Or you know people, you knowwe're social people, we see
people go through things and wesay I would never be able to get
, to get through that.
How were you able to not onlymake the decision to go into
(17:32):
therapy, but to make thedecision to really become I'm
going to circle back to it butto become this go from victim to
survivor?
Like what stages along the way?
Speaker 4 (17:46):
what types of mind experiences that you have to go
through.
There is no.
For me there wasn't any stages,it just happened.
Of course, I could close myeyes.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Closing your eyes itself was the relief that that
allowed you to move from victiminto survivor.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
Yes, because then I felt normal.
To me, survivor means youpersonally feel normal, even
though whatever happened to youdoesn't matter, but you feel
normal From there on in.
I had to work very hard onlearning what boundaries are, so
that was my whole basic of life, even with my kids to know
(18:34):
boundaries.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Can you give us an example?
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 4 (18:40):
Okay, let me blow my nose first.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Sure, you got it Okay .
Speaker 4 (18:48):
What do I mean by a boundary?
Like with your daughters, yousaid, for example yeah,
especially my daughters, becauseI wanted them to be normal.
So I guess that's a funny word,but I guess that's so.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
So you had to go through your own growth in order
to maximize the lives of yourchildren and grandchildren,
great grandchildren.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
Say that again.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
It sounds like you had a drive to make yourself as
well as possible for the sake ofyour children and grandchildren
and great grandchildren.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
Yes, and also anyone who was a girl or a woman,
whatever that.
They stand on their own twofeet.
That's very important to me.
Do you feel like?
Speaker 1 (19:45):
you modeled that for your daughters as they were
growing up, did I feel, do you?
Speaker 4 (19:52):
feel like you modeled .
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Maybe.
In what ways did you model it?
Oh?
Speaker 4 (19:55):
I mean, you know what I'm really positive about my
modeling behavior?
I never had that.
I had my mother, who was a verypassive woman, very tied to her
mother, lived with her motherand fought like there's no
(20:18):
tomorrow.
Yeah, and never had the chanceto get the wisdom that I have.
I know that because, you know,I live with my mother and she
died young.
She died at 47.
That was very sad, because Ifeel sad about that, but I also
(20:41):
figure that I like to think thatit was fixed.
The it was fixed.
I like to think that maybethrough me, maybe that's the
ancestry that we passed on andwe, that's the fact we do.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
So by fixing you mean repaired right, repaired, yeah,
okay.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
Right, yes, so I feel as if that I appreciate that I
was more repaired than my mother.
Wow, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
And Gloria.
We have that in common.
My mother, too, died when shewas 47 years old.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
And how old are you now?
I am 40.
Okay, you've got seven yearsbefore.
You have no one to emulate.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
No, you know, no one's ever said that to me in
that way before.
That's really interesting, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:43):
That's gonna be hard, but it's very freeing.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
Hard, but freeing Gloria, that is such a beautiful
concept.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
My jaw literally dropped, youknow, because A lot of things
are coming together for me rightnow, but it seems like the
experience of, of knowing thatafter your mother's passing, you
(22:09):
had no one left to emulate that.
Is it possible that that'ssupercharged you to make sure
you taught as much as you couldto your family so that when yes,
my good.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
My mother was very passive with her family, and I
didn't want to be, so I became avery aggressive person, person.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
What, what, in what ways that aggression serve you
and in what ways do you think itheld you back a little oh?
Speaker 4 (22:40):
It held me back a lot and Many ways people can't
handle, don't necessarilyhandled my Big mouth, okay, yeah
, my pushyness, mm-hmm, but I'mI'm pleased with it because
(23:05):
that's part of learningboundaries.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
And and always advocating for yourself yeah,
okay.
So when when we're talkingboundaries a big part of
boundaries for you, gloria, waslearning how to and similarly to
that example of saying to your,to your husband, teddy, hey,
I'm gonna therapy and we'regonna talk about why, just gonna
go to therapy, is thisadvocating for yourself right.
Speaker 4 (23:31):
That's true.
And the first thing you knowanother Interesting thing the
first thing I ever feltadvocating for myself was a bath
.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Oh, like taking a bath and a bathtub.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
Yes, and it belonged to nobody and I didn't have to
share it and I all of the above.
Is that interesting?
Because when I cooked orcleaned or even bought a clothes
or whatever, I always felt thatwas part of the family.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Wow when was that?
When we like?
Was it a specific like momentwhen, when you took a specific
bath or just your whole life,you felt like the bath was for
you?
Speaker 4 (24:13):
When?
When was it?
Certainly was after I couldn'tclose my eyes, okay, but you
know it's very hard for me tokeep things in perspective.
Concerning my therapy, because,like I said, I've been doing it
when I was 19 up until my guessis See, because when I came out
(24:39):
of the closet I was about 50.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
That's a long time that process, though.
You mean five zero.
I just want to make sure thateverybody hears that correctly
five zero, not one five right,like you were.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
No, I was five, oh, and my father was still alive
and, according to therapy, yougotta face your, your
scaringness or whatever.
And so I did, and, and that wasreally the beginning of wasn't
(25:16):
the beginning of my illness, butI Felt better than yeah, I, and
I felt I felt better for myfather, who also was keeping it
a secret.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
Yeah you felt better for your father after
confronting him yes, because heowned it a.
Speaker 4 (25:40):
Lot of ownership okay , yes, he owned it.
He apologized, and he even moreso.
When I knew about his history,of course I wasn't interested in
his history all those years,but then I was.
I Could see the sadness becausehe was a victim as well by his
(26:08):
brother.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Do you feel, and maybe this is a, this is you
know, maybe we I don't know how,if we'll keep this question or
not, but it's interesting thatyou, you've moved, almost like
this cosmic shift in you, fromthis idea of I am a, you know, a
victim of incest to I am asurvivor of sexual trauma.
(26:32):
And You're saying about yourfather.
Right and you just referred tohim as a victim.
Do you do you feel like he evermoved into survivor hood versus
?
Speaker 4 (26:49):
You know that's such a good question and I've never
asked that to myself, but I'mgonna try to answer it.
When I realized that my fatheralso suffered, I, I Empowered
him and he felt better and youfelt it from him.
(27:12):
I did.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Yeah, I did it's almost something that he might
not have even had to have saidexplicitly.
It was just something like youfelt the shift from him.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
Yes, I did.
From the anger to theacceptance yes, I did.
That's incredible.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
To go from.
You know you mentioning how,after your mother passed,
there's no one left to emulateand to become a model for your
own father as well.
It's just, it's a testament.
You're you're completely blownaway by what a force for good
you are in this world.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (27:48):
And yeah, thank you for being blown away, but come
back soon.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
So, too, I want to piggyback on that right, which
makes me think of this idea oflike our legacy right, and yes,
you know, yeah, yeah.
What do you, what do you feelyou'd like your legacy to be For
everybody, for your own family,for people listening who have
(28:17):
never met you but have had orhaving the privilege to like,
acquaint themselves with youthrough our podcast?
What do you want your legacy tobe?
Speaker 4 (28:27):
It's an interesting question too, and I don't want
to go into the you know, the allthe sayings that go with it,
but I want my family to be happy, whatever that means to own
(28:47):
their own lifestyle and to beproud of it.
Those are the things I want formy family.
Yes.
And of course we all want goodhealth and good wealth.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Yeah that's really true.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Preach, preach on.
Speaker 4 (29:07):
Yeah, but more important to me is to enjoy your
life, even in your misery,because if you don't enjoy your
life, you're going to take itaway.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
How do you do that?
How do you find a way to enjoyyour life in your misery?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Make fun of it.
I think that's your legacy girl.
That's what you're modeling.
That's what you've modeled inyour 88 years and I, we didn't
give you we didn't do theintroduction yet, but the you
went to clown college right as aquick aside.
I did, yeah, so I find thatreally interesting.
Speaker 4 (29:50):
Well, that's when my husband died.
I needed something to make mesmile, true, so making fun of
you.
I went to clown college and Idid that for about a year and
then I stopped doing it.
Like everything else, I dothings for nine months.
(30:10):
It's like giving birth.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
And then you have enough, just like a woman of
nine months who has enough.
So, gloria, everyone on thiscall, to my knowledge, we're all
Jewish, we're all part of theJewish family and I didn't know
that.
Yeah, and something that, likeyou, often hear people say to
one another and you know, aftersomeone passes, is about a love
(30:40):
that we say is may the memory bea blessing.
And exactly, and as you'rereaching this stage of life and
you're facing it head on, whatexperiences in your life do you
hope will be blessings to yourfriends and family?
Speaker 4 (31:00):
Open this to listen to people and really hear what
they say.
A process of giving, like Ireally, now that you told me,
talk about the world, talk aboutthe world.
I did not know I was on aJewish program.
Speaker 3 (31:23):
It's not a Jewish program, but we all happen to be
Jewish.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
We all just happen to be Jewish.
Speaker 4 (31:28):
That's the meaning of the Jewish program.
It's a true thing Gloria.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
So, take it wherever you'd like.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
Okay and not pro-program.
It's a plan on words.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
Yeah, it's a program, not a pogrom.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
I always felt I was Jewish.
I never felt that I had all myyears that I had to prove I was
Jewish and many people did notaccept me because I don't follow
the culture.
Well, I am cultured because ofmy accent, but okay.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
But I don't follow the rules during my life, but it
doesn't sound like you'refollowing.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
It doesn't sound like you follow Jewish rules,
American rules, societal rules.
You do your own thing.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
Yes, you're so right.
Yeah, but it's good that someof these rules are made lower,
because I need to be held downlike everybody else.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
Those boundaries.
Speaker 4 (32:48):
Yeah, exactly, those are my best, so your husband,
theodore.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
You called him.
I believe you called him, teddy, right?
He passed away a few years ago.
Yeah.
And in our conversation a fewdays ago that I was referring to
, you had mentioned that he wasdid not have a.
He just had a very differentview about his own end stage of
(33:20):
life than you do.
And unfortunately, yeah, so whatwas that like to be his, to be
his partner while he was goingthrough that, while, all the
while, from the inside of you,you, you know you you had a very
different feeling about dyingand generally, the thing I got
(33:41):
me through was my attitude ofbeing selfish and I'm sorry, and
I still wouldn't do anythingdifferent, but I'm sorry, I
couldn't be there for him Even,you know, during his four months
(34:03):
of agony.
I call it what?
Why do you say you were selfish?
What does that mean?
Speaker 4 (34:11):
I needed my space.
I had to get away from thissickly man I.
I needed to make myself feelokay.
So I went out a lot and Ilearned a lot.
One of the things I learnedwhile Ted was dying was
(34:32):
independence.
Wow, yeah, and so I took on allthe things that Ted did, wow.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
Out of necessity.
Speaker 4 (34:49):
Out of yes, out of out of necessity and wanting it.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
Yeah Well, I think that's one of the best ways to
take on something that'snecessary is to also want it,
that's true.
Speaker 4 (35:01):
That's true, but and never get it, because I, if I
had been an independent person,I would have divorced.
What do you mean by that?
I don't understand that.
Kim definitely understood whatyou meant, but I don't
understand what you mean.
I do Well maybe you don'tunderstand it because you're a
man, I would love to learn, ifpossible.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
If you could tell me.
Speaker 4 (35:24):
Most wives are dependent rather than
independent those that becomeindependent are the ones who
choose divorce.
Those that remain dependent.
Stay because it's the godlything to do.
Stay because they set thoseboundaries, or maybe they have
(35:54):
independence within the marriage.
You're not being told what todo.
So that's to me that, I guess,one of the differences.
Can you depend on independence?
Can you be, can you be?
Speaker 3 (36:07):
independent and stay married?
Yes, but I don't understand it,because now?
Speaker 4 (36:12):
I'm not independent.
There are two people standingthere, so that, to me, is a
compromise.
Can I see that people can beindependent and be married, no,
(36:34):
but I can see peopleinterdependent Beautiful yeah,
so for context.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
I think that's a good point, so for context, gloria,
you were married for over 50years.
We're talking about a timeperiod.
We're talking the 1950s and 60sand 70s, all the way to now,
all the way to when, when Teddypassed away, and you are
(37:04):
referring to a dynamic in whichyou were very dependent upon
your husband for for manydifferent things.
I you know Jacob says Kim canrelate, I can right I had grown
very dependent for you know, asI was going blind and and, and I
(37:26):
think that of course I dobelieve that that two people can
be married and beinterdependent, which I think is
a beautiful way to put it.
But what I think, is soextraordinary about what you're
saying is that yet again in yourlife well, maybe we'll call it
a little miracle, maybe not butthis moment in life where you
(37:47):
had enough self awareness to go,I am.
I am dependent on this person.
Here is this life experiencethat is happening in front of me
, which was your your husbandwas dying and all of a sudden,
you started to really recognizewhat it feels like to be in a
(38:08):
situation where you had todepend on yourself, truly right.
Speaker 4 (38:13):
Part of it is, if you think about it, it's sleeping
alone.
That's a very dependent placeto be, when you've always slept
with someone?
Speaker 3 (38:24):
Yeah, my, my grandparents.
They've married 70 years.
I went, my grandfather passedaway and one of the hardest
things for my grandmother aftermy grandfather passed, when I
mean they were in their 90s.
But she said she, she lost herhot water bottle.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Which yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
She just really missed sleeping next to my
grandfather.
Speaker 4 (38:51):
I would have asked her do you like hot water bottle
?
Speaker 3 (39:00):
You know I don't want to go too far in a tangent, but
my grandmother's memory startedto fade when she, when she got
older, and she used to hold mygrandfather's hand and tell
people you know, we've never hada fight and my grandfather
would laugh and laugh.
Speaker 4 (39:20):
Yeah, I guess you do.
Yeah.
And I, I, you know thatdependency I never questioned, I
never asked.
Now to this day, and I'm awarethat I can't sleep with my
grandkids, who want to sleepwith me, uh-huh.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
And why do you think?
Speaker 4 (39:42):
that is.
I think that comes from mydependency my whole life
sleeping with someone.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
It's almost like this , this way, almost, it almost
feels like the bathtub thing,where this is like.
This is my bed, this is my bath, this belongs to me and yeah,
and it's this this this thistangible way of being like this
is mine.
This belongs to me, right.
Speaker 4 (40:12):
Yeah, and Ted would make me laugh because he'd go
around saying mine, mine, mine.
He's the laugh that's happening, you mean in saying that he was
.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
You think he was like mocking you a little bit, or
what?
How do you?
Think.
Like teasing you.
Speaker 4 (40:29):
Yes, I think he was mocking me and making it
humorous.
Yeah.
Right.
He was like, instead of beingserious this is one of the
things I loved about him andthen he took things even more
serious than I did.
So you know it was a catch.
Catch can.
Speaker 3 (40:51):
How did you meet your husband?
Speaker 4 (40:54):
A blind date, oh my gosh.
Well, I gotta tell you thestory there because it shows my
personality.
Okay.
Okay, my girlfriend set up ablind date.
It was six of us and we allpushed the fit in this car and I
(41:16):
gotta know this is the 52.
So the cars are generally largeenough and you can sit on
somebody's lap.
Everything changed when theymade that rule that you can't do
that.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
You know the, you know the law to wear a seatbelt,
those kinds of things.
Speaker 4 (41:35):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
So anyhow, I'm waiting for mydate to come up.
The come up the stairs and hisname was Al and he was very cute
, but he was very short.
How tall are you?
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Yeah, how tall are you?
How tall are you, Gloria?
Speaker 4 (41:59):
10 or now.
Then I was five two.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Oh, and he was considered short.
Okay, I got you, keep going.
Speaker 4 (42:10):
Oh, yeah, I could have.
Yeah, he was considered short,so I was wearing high heels.
I mean six inch high heels.
They were hard.
I was so pissed off and hewalked out.
I threw my heels out and put onmy loafers.
(42:35):
Okay, so I we got downstairsand there was this tall, in my
eyes lanky, pimple-faced guy wholooked harmless.
So I said hello, he was withanother girl and you know what
(42:59):
he did.
When I was getting in the car,he pushed Al away and he said to
me you can sit on my lap.
Wow, that was the end of Al.
Wow, so then just a fist crack,but yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Wow, that's a great story, gloria.
I'm just going to do a timecheck with Jacob.
I think we should start to wrapup.
Speaker 3 (43:32):
It's somewhere a little less than 45 minutes, but
in that ballpark and I think weshould ask our closing question
.
So Gloria, it has been such anunbelievable pleasure speaking
with you.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Yeah, I'm so honored.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
And thank you, that's wonderful.
Oh no, it's really, it's beensuch a, such a joy that that, no
, we get to speak with you, andso is there anything that we
haven't asked you that you wouldlike to speak about?
Speaker 4 (44:02):
I'm so proud of being of living in the here and now.
So what you ask is something inthe past that I missed or
needed, and, as far as I'mconcerned, I don't have a future
.
Yeah.
So there is nothing in the hereand now that I can think of.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
Which says to me that right here and right now, you
and correct me if I'm wrong,because I don't want to speak
for your feelings that you arecontent in your life right now.
Speaker 4 (44:46):
I think you're right.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
Okay, that resonates with you, that you, that you're
just, you're feeling content.
Speaker 4 (44:54):
I think you're right and I'm pleased with that.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Yeah, Well, I think that you are I really are
incredibly inspiring.
Because, I'm going to explainto you because, you know, the
death for all of us is reallyjust a concept, and for the
majority of us it's incrediblyscary.
(45:20):
And.
I think that just through thisconversation there are things
that you have said that I knowfor myself, can only speak for
myself, that I don't know.
It just makes me feel a littlebit more at peace with this,
with the concept for me that Ifeel scary yeah.
Speaker 4 (45:40):
I feel really good with you, you're welcome and I
finally get a chance to say I'mJewish.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
Yes, loud and proud sister.
Loud and proud, yes.
Speaker 4 (45:53):
Yeah, and I thank you for giving me the opportunity
to say it.
It adds to my contentment.
That's really wonderful, that'sbeautiful.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Now we're just going to wrap up, but one thing that
we want to know is you know ifthere is a charity that you feel
really particularly connectedwith that you'd like maybe our
listeners.
Sometimes they offer you knowthey'll go in and they'll make
donations, things like that.
We would love to give you anopportunity to share that with
our audience.
Speaker 4 (46:25):
I don't know how to say it ICLU, iclu, what's that?
Yeah, what?
The lawyers that come in andthe ACLU.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Yeah, I think it's the ACLU.
Speaker 3 (46:42):
The ACLU, the American Civil Liberties Union.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Yes, Okay, so we will put that in our show notes, a
link to that.
So that if any of our listenerswould like to make a donation
to that charity, they can, orthat organization.
Speaker 4 (46:59):
Yeah, well, they can make a donation to the Catholic
charity, to anything they want.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
I'm in glory of Good for you.
Speaker 3 (47:10):
You just like when people give.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (47:13):
That's a great message.
Speaker 3 (47:14):
Yeah, and thank you, sure thing, and thank you, and I
don't know if this gives youanything, but when people set
boundaries, we so often feelselfish and what I heard and you
talking about the experience ofyou know like this is my bed
and this is my tub and my back.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
And the last four months of Teddy's life being
like I was selfish because I seta boundary.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
I just wish that people were able to know when
they set a boundary forthemselves for the sake of
maintaining their well-being, sothey can continue to take care
of themselves and the peoplearound them.
I don't think that's selfish.
I think that's self-full.
These are ways people need tofill themselves up.
Speaker 4 (48:01):
Well, but I believe also in make it.
No, fake it till you.
Make it, yeah Well, you made it, you made it.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
You you, girl you made it, my dear, you made it.
It could be all a fake.
Not at all.
Speaker 3 (48:21):
You're as real as they come, Gloria.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Yeah, yeah, all right , I'm still crying, okay.
Well, we really appreciate you,we really appreciate this
conversation and we are going tocall it a wrap.
So thank you Good.
Speaker 4 (48:35):
Now we will go to eat Enjoy.
Speaker 3 (48:38):
Enjoy, I have a wonderful day.
Speaker 4 (48:40):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (48:41):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (48:41):
Bye-bye.
Speaker 4 (48:43):
Bye-bye.
Speaker 3 (48:46):
We want to thank you so much for listening to today's
episode.
If anything in today's episodespoke to you, please like
subscribe rate and review.
Also, don't forget to sharethis podcast with friends and
family.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
And if there's anybody that you know that you
think would be a great guest onintuitive choices, please email
us atintuitivechoicespodcastgmailcom.
Finally, if you want to knowmore about our mental health
practice, intuitive counselingand wellness, please check us
out atintuitivecounselingofphillycom.
Hey everybody, I'm Kimberly Dobbs.
Speaker 3 (00:06):
And I'm Jacob Miller.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
And we'd like to welcome you to another episode
of Intuitive Choices.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
Kim and I are mental health therapists working in
Philadelphia.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
But wait, jacob, that's not all we are.
I mean, I'm blind and you're anOrthodox too.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Yes, kim, that's correct.
That's why this podcast isinteresting.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
But what really makes this podcast interesting is
that each week we invite a guestto speak about how their own
intuitive choices have led themto live a more meaningful life.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
We hope that this conversation encourages you to
make meaningful choices in yourown life.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Alright, off we go.
Speaker 3 (00:35):
Let's do it.
Hey, everyone just wanted tolet you know that today's
episode covers a briefdiscussion of recovering from a
sexual assault and therefore maynot be appropriate for all
listeners.
And, without further ado,please enjoy the episode.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
I'm Kimberly Dobbs.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
And I'm Jacob Miller.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
And we'd like to welcome you to Intuitive Choices
.
And today we are so honored andprivileged to welcome our guest
, a woman by a woman by the nameof Gloria Ginsburg.
She's joining us today.
Kind of serendipitously, I washaving a conversation with a
dear friend of mine who happensto be Gloria's granddaughter,
(01:19):
and this, this particularperson's name is Antonia, and
while Antonia and I werespeaking, we were on FaceTime
and Gloria and Antonia says tome oh Kim, let me introduce you
to my grandmother.
Her name's Gloria, and before Iknew it, I was on a FaceTime
call with this, with thisamazing woman, and she was
telling me that she was tellingme that she had recently moved
(01:43):
from Southern California toNorthern California.
And then, gloria, you saidsomething that struck me.
I'm not sure if you rememberwhat it was that you said that
struck me, but I'm going to justask you do you remember what
you said to me about why youmoved to Northern California?
Speaker 4 (02:01):
Oh, why I moved to be well, I don't know if I
remember it you got to remind mebut at one of the reasons is to
be near my daughter.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
That's right, and and and, gloria, you said to me.
You said, well, I'll tell you.
And you said it's so matter offact.
You said I came here to die.
That's what you said to me.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
Yes, I did say that.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
You did, and when you said that to me, I it really,
it really like hit a chord, apositive one, and I wasn't able
to stop thinking about thatstatement or you for several
days following our conversationand I thought there was
(02:47):
something about what you, howyou, how you said those words to
me that felt to me so peaceful,and I thought I want to hear
more about Gloria, more abouthow she was able to say
something like that was such,seemingly with such confidence
(03:11):
and peace and acceptance, andtherefore started the ball
rolling and inviting you on totalk with Jacob and I about you
and about this process of comingto Northern California and, in
your words, to die.
So I guess we'll start with thefirst question is how did you,
how do you think you were ableto say that with such confidence
(03:32):
?
Tell me, tell us a little more.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
When I think about it .
When I was a little girl, Ithought about dying I.
That's not new to me, it's.
It's stayed in the back of myhead my whole life.
So death is part of living andwas part of me, and that's my
(03:57):
pussy cat talk.
So it I felt that it camecasual enough to be able to say
that.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
So at the same time, gloria it definitely makes sense
.
But in our experience or I willmaybe I won't speak for Kim in
my experience it's not so commonto meet anyone, let alone a
little girl, who's already likecontemplating, you know, the
last stages of life in a waythat allows them to hit those
(04:33):
stages of life with as muchmatter of factness and
confidence as you have.
So would it be?
possible to tell us a little bitmore about, maybe, if you're
comfortable, what was going onas a little girl or what's going
on now.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
When I was a little girl, I was always kind of
philosophical.
I came from a defunct,defunctional home, so I was
always looking for thatspirituality that kept me in a,
(05:10):
a place that I felt comfortablewith.
And when I wouldn't get theanswers and a lot of times I
didn't I say there's alwaystomorrow.
Wow, that's really beautifulyeah, as a little girl, I knew I
wasn't going to die, but as anold lady, haha.
(05:36):
So it's still the same thoughtas a child, only in a decrepit
body.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
And so there's this concept right of dying that you,
that you speak of as a womannow, as you speak of it as a
little girl, right, this, thisconcept of?
Speaker 4 (06:00):
dying.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Yeah, did.
Did you have like in reflection, do you feel like you had as
much peace around this idea ofof death as a little girl as you
do now at 88?
Speaker 4 (06:19):
No, because I don't know what's going to happen.
I don't have peace at knowingwhat's going.
I don't know.
So the I don't know is part ofwho I am my whole life.
Hmm.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Can you so say more about that, the I don't know
Right?
Speaker 4 (06:41):
So well, I'm trying to say the I don't know is part
of my philosophy, you know, andyou know I've always envied not
jealous, but envied people whodid know, because there are so
many religious people in theworld and I wish I had the
(07:05):
answer the way they do theconfidence in the answer the way
that they do?
Exactly.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:11):
Exactly, yeah, yeah, exactly.
I always think maybe they knowmore than me, but when I think
about it, I know that they don'tknow more than me.
They're only humans.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Yeah, so it's really.
What we're talking about ismore of a comfortability with
this idea of not knowing,because nobody really knows.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
That makes me feel better, okay, good.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Yeah, that makes me feel better, then I shouldn't
quit my day job.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
No, no, don't quit your day job, but I don't know
about your night job.
What are?
Speaker 1 (07:54):
you doing this is my night job.
Go ahead and see this podcast.
So, jacob, why don't you askone of the questions and we can
delete?
Speaker 3 (08:04):
this little chat, sure thing.
Okay, yeah, gloria, before Iask my question, I just say I
really am so grateful forspeaking.
I'm just like I reallyappreciate the energy that you
bring into our conversation.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
Thank you, honey, I remember what you said.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Thank you.
So you know, it just so happens.
I myself, like, was aphilosophy major when I was in
college.
I shifted to being a therapistlater on in life, and so I'm
like doing my best to not godown the philosophy route with
you right now.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
You're doing great.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
Thank you.
You know when I think aboutwhat it sounds like is you have
a.
You've had a lifetime ofdeveloping your own personal
philosophy of life, of what itdoesn't mean to be.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
Gloria, that is true.
That is true.
I feel that.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
What were some of the can you?
Can you speak to some of thethings that happened in your
life that allowed you to developthat philosophy?
Speaker 4 (09:02):
Well, yes, I can, if it's acceptable, on the radio or
whatever you call this.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
This is a public forum, so it's up to you on how
much you would like to share tothe general public.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
It's been my goal for a number of years now to share
that I was a incest victim, butnow I'm an incest survivor.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Those words really.
I mean, they just hit me, butthey would hit anyone who would
hear them.
So I can't even imagine what ittakes to reach the level of
being a survivor.
How can you even, how did youeven begin that process, and at
what stage did you realize thatyou had transcended into the
(09:55):
state of being a survivor?
Speaker 1 (09:58):
You're speaking from a victim to survivor right.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
Right, I did have physical symptoms that told me
that I can't live like that, andit made me come out of the
closet.
I couldn't close my eyes,literally.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
You mean literally?
Yes, okay.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
What's the difference between literally and
figuratively?
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Literally is, you actually were not able to close
your eyes at any point.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
Okay, that's what I mean.
Wow, that's when I realized Ican't.
I was married, I had justgotten married.
And what happens if my husbandfinds out about it?
I mean, how would I explain it?
Because being in the closetalso means you've got a heavy
(11:00):
duty secret.
Yeah, and that was a secretfrom my husband as well.
Right, so I ended up you'll beproud of this I ended up in a
therapist's office.
Oh yeah, my husband went to USCand he was going to school
(11:27):
there to get his PhD.
University of SouthernCalifornia.
Yeah, okay.
And while we were there, I toldhim I'm going to go to a
therapist and he shouldn't askme why.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Okay, he respected that boundary.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
He did.
He did accept that, and what?
Speaker 1 (11:51):
bravery that took, especially because we also have
to put ourselves back at thattime.
I was just going to ask do youmind letting us know, like
around, what year it was?
Speaker 3 (12:00):
when you went.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
I went to the school therapist.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
So you were, how old roughly I was.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
I just got married, so I was 19.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
So at 19 years old it was probably around 19,.
You know, 49 or 1950.
No, no, no 1955.
1955.
So we're talking in the mid1950s.
This gal, very brave andcourageous brave and
courageously decided okay, theseare these physical symptoms I'm
(12:40):
experiencing as the result ofthis trauma, and decided I need
to work this out.
I'm going to go to a therapist.
And then you told your husbandand don't ask me about it, I'm
just going to go do this thing.
That's great.
Very very ahead of your time,jacob, wouldn't you say?
Speaker 3 (12:57):
I certainly would yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
Well, the unbelievable miracle for me was
when I walked to the door.
I knew I had to do that.
I knew I had to say I am anincest victim.
I just knew it.
Would we call that somethinglike a gut feeling and we like,
(13:22):
on that one hour show, call itan intuitive moment, but to make
a little light of it, I wouldcall it an eye feeling rather
than a gut feeling.
Okay, that's fine.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
But you knew that there was some sort.
There was the.
You hoped that there would be arelief from whatever was going
on with your eyes by speakingthis out to the professional.
Speaker 4 (13:45):
I just wanted to close my eyes.
Yeah, yes, and I walked inthere and I told her that, and I
swear to you, I could close myeyes from there on in, wow.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
It was like somebody up there was leading me to that.
Not me, but somebody up there.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
The phrase I like to use is like something bigger
than we are Right, somethinglike inexplicable that we can't.
Yeah, exactly that just guidedme toward that.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Yeah, and since that time I have experienced little
miracles.
I call them little miraclesbecause then that's something to
be such an eye opener about,and they can always be put in
coincidence, right.
Right, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
I don't know if there's such a thing as a little
miracle.
At the end of the day, I thinkany miracle is a big miracle.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
Yeah, there's magnitude to every miracle, yeah
, but you know, I believe thatwe have little miracles
happening to us every minute,but we don't recognize it
because we don't have time tohow do you make time?
Speaker 1 (15:01):
How did you make time ?
How did you, as Gloria, maketime to recognize these miracles
?
Speaker 4 (15:08):
It's called awareness , and because of awareness I
went to therapy.
Most of my life have gonethrough therapy not now and not
for a long time, but most of mytime yet and it's helped me a
(15:28):
great deal.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
So I want to ask you, because what we didn't say was
that you were recently diagnosedwith pancreatic cancer, right,
right, and we're talking stagefour, okay, Right Stage four.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
you say with a chuckle.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Yeah, interesting Right, tell us why you're
laughing.
Speaker 4 (15:53):
It's a.
To me it doesn't matter.
I don't, because if I had stageone I couldn't fix it.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
Again, you're just displaying the level of
acceptance you have over bothwhat life has given you, and
then there's a level ofacceptance that you have in your
own ability to make the most ofit.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
Oh yeah, I guess that's that's true, to make the
most of it.
Every day I wake up, oh yeah,oh yeah, I yes, and you know
it's a wonderful feeling.
I don't even try.
What's a wonderful feelingRight there.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Can you?
Speaker 4 (16:40):
name it.
What do you?
Speaker 1 (16:41):
say it.
What is, what does that looklike for you?
What do I mean?
It's when you say most of it'sthere, that makes you feel like
laughter, smiling, grateful, andyeah, that's a very personal
(17:01):
thing.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
Yeah, Gloria, I think most people who are far from
from sexual trauma, who are farfrom from an incest trauma, they
would say to themselves like Ican't imagine, like if I would
ever be able to get past that.
Or you know people, you knowwe're social people, we see
people go through things and wesay I would never be able to get
, to get through that.
How were you able to not onlymake the decision to go into
(17:32):
therapy, but to make thedecision to really become I'm
going to circle back to it butto become this go from victim to
survivor?
Like what stages along the way?
Speaker 4 (17:46):
what types of mind experiences that you have to go
through.
There is no.
For me there wasn't any stages,it just happened.
Of course, I could close myeyes.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Closing your eyes itself was the relief that that
allowed you to move from victiminto survivor.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
Yes, because then I felt normal.
To me, survivor means youpersonally feel normal, even
though whatever happened to youdoesn't matter, but you feel
normal From there on in.
I had to work very hard onlearning what boundaries are, so
that was my whole basic of life, even with my kids to know
(18:34):
boundaries.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Can you give us an example?
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 4 (18:40):
Okay, let me blow my nose first.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Sure, you got it Okay .
Speaker 4 (18:48):
What do I mean by a boundary?
Like with your daughters, yousaid, for example yeah,
especially my daughters, becauseI wanted them to be normal.
So I guess that's a funny word,but I guess that's so.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
So you had to go through your own growth in order
to maximize the lives of yourchildren and grandchildren,
great grandchildren.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
Say that again.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
It sounds like you had a drive to make yourself as
well as possible for the sake ofyour children and grandchildren
and great grandchildren.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
Yes, and also anyone who was a girl or a woman,
whatever that.
They stand on their own twofeet.
That's very important to me.
Do you feel like?
Speaker 1 (19:45):
you modeled that for your daughters as they were
growing up, did I feel, do you?
Speaker 4 (19:52):
feel like you modeled .
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Maybe.
In what ways did you model it?
Oh?
Speaker 4 (19:55):
I mean, you know what I'm really positive about my
modeling behavior?
I never had that.
I had my mother, who was a verypassive woman, very tied to her
mother, lived with her motherand fought like there's no
(20:18):
tomorrow.
Yeah, and never had the chanceto get the wisdom that I have.
I know that because, you know,I live with my mother and she
died young.
She died at 47.
That was very sad, because Ifeel sad about that, but I also
(20:41):
figure that I like to think thatit was fixed.
The it was fixed.
I like to think that maybethrough me, maybe that's the
ancestry that we passed on andwe, that's the fact we do.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
So by fixing you mean repaired right, repaired, yeah,
okay.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
Right, yes, so I feel as if that I appreciate that I
was more repaired than my mother.
Wow, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
And Gloria.
We have that in common.
My mother, too, died when shewas 47 years old.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
And how old are you now?
I am 40.
Okay, you've got seven yearsbefore.
You have no one to emulate.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
No, you know, no one's ever said that to me in
that way before.
That's really interesting, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:43):
That's gonna be hard, but it's very freeing.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
Hard, but freeing Gloria, that is such a beautiful
concept.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
My jaw literally dropped, youknow, because A lot of things
are coming together for me rightnow, but it seems like the
experience of, of knowing thatafter your mother's passing, you
(22:09):
had no one left to emulate that.
Is it possible that that'ssupercharged you to make sure
you taught as much as you couldto your family so that when yes,
my good.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
My mother was very passive with her family, and I
didn't want to be, so I became avery aggressive person, person.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
What, what, in what ways that aggression serve you
and in what ways do you think itheld you back a little oh?
Speaker 4 (22:40):
It held me back a lot and Many ways people can't
handle, don't necessarilyhandled my Big mouth, okay, yeah
, my pushyness, mm-hmm, but I'mI'm pleased with it because
(23:05):
that's part of learningboundaries.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
And and always advocating for yourself yeah,
okay.
So when when we're talkingboundaries a big part of
boundaries for you, gloria, waslearning how to and similarly to
that example of saying to your,to your husband, teddy, hey,
I'm gonna therapy and we'regonna talk about why, just gonna
go to therapy, is thisadvocating for yourself right.
Speaker 4 (23:31):
That's true.
And the first thing you knowanother Interesting thing the
first thing I ever feltadvocating for myself was a bath
.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Oh, like taking a bath and a bathtub.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
Yes, and it belonged to nobody and I didn't have to
share it and I all of the above.
Is that interesting?
Because when I cooked orcleaned or even bought a clothes
or whatever, I always felt thatwas part of the family.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Wow when was that?
When we like?
Was it a specific like momentwhen, when you took a specific
bath or just your whole life,you felt like the bath was for
you?
Speaker 4 (24:13):
When?
When was it?
Certainly was after I couldn'tclose my eyes, okay, but you
know it's very hard for me tokeep things in perspective.
Concerning my therapy, because,like I said, I've been doing it
when I was 19 up until my guessis See, because when I came out
(24:39):
of the closet I was about 50.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
That's a long time that process, though.
You mean five zero.
I just want to make sure thateverybody hears that correctly
five zero, not one five right,like you were.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
No, I was five, oh, and my father was still alive
and, according to therapy, yougotta face your, your
scaringness or whatever.
And so I did, and, and that wasreally the beginning of wasn't
(25:16):
the beginning of my illness, butI Felt better than yeah, I, and
I felt I felt better for myfather, who also was keeping it
a secret.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
Yeah you felt better for your father after
confronting him yes, because heowned it a.
Speaker 4 (25:40):
Lot of ownership okay , yes, he owned it.
He apologized, and he even moreso.
When I knew about his history,of course I wasn't interested in
his history all those years,but then I was.
I Could see the sadness becausehe was a victim as well by his
(26:08):
brother.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Do you feel, and maybe this is a, this is you
know, maybe we I don't know how,if we'll keep this question or
not, but it's interesting thatyou, you've moved, almost like
this cosmic shift in you, fromthis idea of I am a, you know, a
victim of incest to I am asurvivor of sexual trauma.
(26:32):
And You're saying about yourfather.
Right and you just referred tohim as a victim.
Do you do you feel like he evermoved into survivor hood versus
?
Speaker 4 (26:49):
You know that's such a good question and I've never
asked that to myself, but I'mgonna try to answer it.
When I realized that my fatheralso suffered, I, I Empowered
him and he felt better and youfelt it from him.
(27:12):
I did.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
Yeah, I did it's almost something that he might
not have even had to have saidexplicitly.
It was just something like youfelt the shift from him.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
Yes, I did.
From the anger to theacceptance yes, I did.
That's incredible.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
To go from.
You know you mentioning how,after your mother passed,
there's no one left to emulateand to become a model for your
own father as well.
It's just, it's a testament.
You're you're completely blownaway by what a force for good
you are in this world.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (27:48):
And yeah, thank you for being blown away, but come
back soon.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
So, too, I want to piggyback on that right, which
makes me think of this idea oflike our legacy right, and yes,
you know, yeah, yeah.
What do you, what do you feelyou'd like your legacy to be For
everybody, for your own family,for people listening who have
(28:17):
never met you but have had orhaving the privilege to like,
acquaint themselves with youthrough our podcast?
What do you want your legacy tobe?
Speaker 4 (28:27):
It's an interesting question too, and I don't want
to go into the you know, the allthe sayings that go with it,
but I want my family to be happy, whatever that means to own
(28:47):
their own lifestyle and to beproud of it.
Those are the things I want formy family.
Yes.
And of course we all want goodhealth and good wealth.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Yeah that's really true.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Preach, preach on.
Speaker 4 (29:07):
Yeah, but more important to me is to enjoy your
life, even in your misery,because if you don't enjoy your
life, you're going to take itaway.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
How do you do that?
How do you find a way to enjoyyour life in your misery?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Make fun of it.
I think that's your legacy girl.
That's what you're modeling.
That's what you've modeled inyour 88 years and I, we didn't
give you we didn't do theintroduction yet, but the you
went to clown college right as aquick aside.
I did, yeah, so I find thatreally interesting.
Speaker 4 (29:50):
Well, that's when my husband died.
I needed something to make mesmile, true, so making fun of
you.
I went to clown college and Idid that for about a year and
then I stopped doing it.
Like everything else, I dothings for nine months.
(30:10):
It's like giving birth.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
And then you have enough, just like a woman of
nine months who has enough.
So, gloria, everyone on thiscall, to my knowledge, we're all
Jewish, we're all part of theJewish family and I didn't know
that.
Yeah, and something that, likeyou, often hear people say to
one another and you know, aftersomeone passes, is about a love
(30:40):
that we say is may the memory bea blessing.
And exactly, and as you'rereaching this stage of life and
you're facing it head on, whatexperiences in your life do you
hope will be blessings to yourfriends and family?
Speaker 4 (31:00):
Open this to listen to people and really hear what
they say.
A process of giving, like Ireally, now that you told me,
talk about the world, talk aboutthe world.
I did not know I was on aJewish program.
Speaker 3 (31:23):
It's not a Jewish program, but we all happen to be
Jewish.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
We all just happen to be Jewish.
Speaker 4 (31:28):
That's the meaning of the Jewish program.
It's a true thing Gloria.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
So, take it wherever you'd like.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
Okay and not pro-program.
It's a plan on words.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
Yeah, it's a program, not a pogrom.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
I always felt I was Jewish.
I never felt that I had all myyears that I had to prove I was
Jewish and many people did notaccept me because I don't follow
the culture.
Well, I am cultured because ofmy accent, but okay.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
But I don't follow the rules during my life, but it
doesn't sound like you'refollowing.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
It doesn't sound like you follow Jewish rules,
American rules, societal rules.
You do your own thing.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
Yes, you're so right.
Yeah, but it's good that someof these rules are made lower,
because I need to be held downlike everybody else.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
Those boundaries.
Speaker 4 (32:48):
Yeah, exactly, those are my best, so your husband,
theodore.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
You called him.
I believe you called him, teddy, right?
He passed away a few years ago.
Yeah.
And in our conversation a fewdays ago that I was referring to
, you had mentioned that he wasdid not have a.
He just had a very differentview about his own end stage of
(33:20):
life than you do.
And unfortunately, yeah, so whatwas that like to be his, to be
his partner while he was goingthrough that, while, all the
while, from the inside of you,you, you know you you had a very
different feeling about dyingand generally, the thing I got
(33:41):
me through was my attitude ofbeing selfish and I'm sorry, and
I still wouldn't do anythingdifferent, but I'm sorry, I
couldn't be there for him Even,you know, during his four months
(34:03):
of agony.
I call it what?
Why do you say you were selfish?
What does that mean?
Speaker 4 (34:11):
I needed my space.
I had to get away from thissickly man I.
I needed to make myself feelokay.
So I went out a lot and Ilearned a lot.
One of the things I learnedwhile Ted was dying was
(34:32):
independence.
Wow, yeah, and so I took on allthe things that Ted did, wow.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
Out of necessity.
Speaker 4 (34:49):
Out of yes, out of out of necessity and wanting it.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
Yeah Well, I think that's one of the best ways to
take on something that'snecessary is to also want it,
that's true.
Speaker 4 (35:01):
That's true, but and never get it, because I, if I
had been an independent person,I would have divorced.
What do you mean by that?
I don't understand that.
Kim definitely understood whatyou meant, but I don't
understand what you mean.
I do Well maybe you don'tunderstand it because you're a
man, I would love to learn, ifpossible.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
If you could tell me.
Speaker 4 (35:24):
Most wives are dependent rather than
independent those that becomeindependent are the ones who
choose divorce.
Those that remain dependent.
Stay because it's the godlything to do.
Stay because they set thoseboundaries, or maybe they have
(35:54):
independence within the marriage.
You're not being told what todo.
So that's to me that, I guess,one of the differences.
Can you depend on independence?
Can you be, can you be?
Speaker 3 (36:07):
independent and stay married?
Yes, but I don't understand it,because now?
Speaker 4 (36:12):
I'm not independent.
There are two people standingthere, so that, to me, is a
compromise.
Can I see that people can beindependent and be married, no,
(36:34):
but I can see peopleinterdependent Beautiful yeah,
so for context.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
I think that's a good point, so for context, gloria,
you were married for over 50years.
We're talking about a timeperiod.
We're talking the 1950s and 60sand 70s, all the way to now,
all the way to when, when Teddypassed away, and you are
(37:04):
referring to a dynamic in whichyou were very dependent upon
your husband for for manydifferent things.
I you know Jacob says Kim canrelate, I can right I had grown
very dependent for you know, asI was going blind and and, and I
(37:26):
think that of course I dobelieve that that two people can
be married and beinterdependent, which I think is
a beautiful way to put it.
But what I think, is soextraordinary about what you're
saying is that yet again in yourlife well, maybe we'll call it
a little miracle, maybe not butthis moment in life where you
(37:47):
had enough self awareness to go,I am.
I am dependent on this person.
Here is this life experiencethat is happening in front of me
, which was your your husbandwas dying and all of a sudden,
you started to really recognizewhat it feels like to be in a
(38:08):
situation where you had todepend on yourself, truly right.
Speaker 4 (38:13):
Part of it is, if you think about it, it's sleeping
alone.
That's a very dependent placeto be, when you've always slept
with someone?
Speaker 3 (38:24):
Yeah, my, my grandparents.
They've married 70 years.
I went, my grandfather passedaway and one of the hardest
things for my grandmother aftermy grandfather passed, when I
mean they were in their 90s.
But she said she, she lost herhot water bottle.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Which yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
She just really missed sleeping next to my
grandfather.
Speaker 4 (38:51):
I would have asked her do you like hot water bottle
?
Speaker 3 (39:00):
You know I don't want to go too far in a tangent, but
my grandmother's memory startedto fade when she, when she got
older, and she used to hold mygrandfather's hand and tell
people you know, we've never hada fight and my grandfather
would laugh and laugh.
Speaker 4 (39:20):
Yeah, I guess you do.
Yeah.
And I, I, you know thatdependency I never questioned, I
never asked.
Now to this day, and I'm awarethat I can't sleep with my
grandkids, who want to sleepwith me, uh-huh.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
And why do you think?
Speaker 4 (39:42):
that is.
I think that comes from mydependency my whole life
sleeping with someone.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
It's almost like this , this way, almost, it almost
feels like the bathtub thing,where this is like.
This is my bed, this is my bath, this belongs to me and yeah,
and it's this this this thistangible way of being like this
is mine.
This belongs to me, right.
Speaker 4 (40:12):
Yeah, and Ted would make me laugh because he'd go
around saying mine, mine, mine.
He's the laugh that's happening, you mean in saying that he was
.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
You think he was like mocking you a little bit, or
what?
How do you?
Think.
Like teasing you.
Speaker 4 (40:29):
Yes, I think he was mocking me and making it
humorous.
Yeah.
Right.
He was like, instead of beingserious this is one of the
things I loved about him andthen he took things even more
serious than I did.
So you know it was a catch.
Catch can.
Speaker 3 (40:51):
How did you meet your husband?
Speaker 4 (40:54):
A blind date, oh my gosh.
Well, I gotta tell you thestory there because it shows my
personality.
Okay.
Okay, my girlfriend set up ablind date.
It was six of us and we allpushed the fit in this car and I
(41:16):
gotta know this is the 52.
So the cars are generally largeenough and you can sit on
somebody's lap.
Everything changed when theymade that rule that you can't do
that.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
You know the, you know the law to wear a seatbelt,
those kinds of things.
Speaker 4 (41:35):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
So anyhow, I'm waiting for mydate to come up.
The come up the stairs and hisname was Al and he was very cute
, but he was very short.
How tall are you?
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Yeah, how tall are you?
How tall are you, Gloria?
Speaker 4 (41:59):
10 or now.
Then I was five two.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Oh, and he was considered short.
Okay, I got you, keep going.
Speaker 4 (42:10):
Oh, yeah, I could have.
Yeah, he was considered short,so I was wearing high heels.
I mean six inch high heels.
They were hard.
I was so pissed off and hewalked out.
I threw my heels out and put onmy loafers.
(42:35):
Okay, so I we got downstairsand there was this tall, in my
eyes lanky, pimple-faced guy wholooked harmless.
So I said hello, he was withanother girl and you know what
(42:59):
he did.
When I was getting in the car,he pushed Al away and he said to
me you can sit on my lap.
Wow, that was the end of Al.
Wow, so then just a fist crack,but yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Wow, that's a great story, gloria.
I'm just going to do a timecheck with Jacob.
I think we should start to wrapup.
Speaker 3 (43:32):
It's somewhere a little less than 45 minutes, but
in that ballpark and I think weshould ask our closing question
.
So Gloria, it has been such anunbelievable pleasure speaking
with you.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Yeah, I'm so honored.
Speaker 3 (43:47):
And thank you, that's wonderful.
Oh no, it's really, it's beensuch a, such a joy that that, no
, we get to speak with you, andso is there anything that we
haven't asked you that you wouldlike to speak about?
Speaker 4 (44:02):
I'm so proud of being of living in the here and now.
So what you ask is something inthe past that I missed or
needed, and, as far as I'mconcerned, I don't have a future
.
Yeah.
So there is nothing in the hereand now that I can think of.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
Which says to me that right here and right now, you
and correct me if I'm wrong,because I don't want to speak
for your feelings that you arecontent in your life right now.
Speaker 4 (44:46):
I think you're right.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
Okay, that resonates with you, that you, that you're
just, you're feeling content.
Speaker 4 (44:54):
I think you're right and I'm pleased with that.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Yeah, Well, I think that you are I really are
incredibly inspiring.
Because, I'm going to explainto you because, you know, the
death for all of us is reallyjust a concept, and for the
majority of us it's incrediblyscary.
(45:20):
And.
I think that just through thisconversation there are things
that you have said that I knowfor myself, can only speak for
myself, that I don't know.
It just makes me feel a littlebit more at peace with this,
with the concept for me that Ifeel scary yeah.
Speaker 4 (45:40):
I feel really good with you, you're welcome and I
finally get a chance to say I'mJewish.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
Yes, loud and proud sister.
Loud and proud, yes.
Speaker 4 (45:53):
Yeah, and I thank you for giving me the opportunity
to say it.
It adds to my contentment.
That's really wonderful, that'sbeautiful.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Now we're just going to wrap up, but one thing that
we want to know is you know ifthere is a charity that you feel
really particularly connectedwith that you'd like maybe our
listeners.
Sometimes they offer you knowthey'll go in and they'll make
donations, things like that.
We would love to give you anopportunity to share that with
our audience.
Speaker 4 (46:25):
I don't know how to say it ICLU, iclu, what's that?
Yeah, what?
The lawyers that come in andthe ACLU.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Yeah, I think it's the ACLU.
Speaker 3 (46:42):
The ACLU, the American Civil Liberties Union.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Yes, Okay, so we will put that in our show notes, a
link to that.
So that if any of our listenerswould like to make a donation
to that charity, they can, orthat organization.
Speaker 4 (46:59):
Yeah, well, they can make a donation to the Catholic
charity, to anything they want.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
I'm in glory of Good for you.
Speaker 3 (47:10):
You just like when people give.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (47:13):
That's a great message.
Speaker 3 (47:14):
Yeah, and thank you, sure thing, and thank you, and I
don't know if this gives youanything, but when people set
boundaries, we so often feelselfish and what I heard and you
talking about the experience ofyou know like this is my bed
and this is my tub and my back.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
And the last four months of Teddy's life being
like I was selfish because I seta boundary.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
I just wish that people were able to know when
they set a boundary forthemselves for the sake of
maintaining their well-being, sothey can continue to take care
of themselves and the peoplearound them.
I don't think that's selfish.
I think that's self-full.
These are ways people need tofill themselves up.
Speaker 4 (48:01):
Well, but I believe also in make it.
No, fake it till you.
Make it, yeah Well, you made it, you made it.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
You you, girl you made it, my dear, you made it.
It could be all a fake.
Not at all.
Speaker 3 (48:21):
You're as real as they come, Gloria.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Yeah, yeah, all right , I'm still crying, okay.
Well, we really appreciate you,we really appreciate this
conversation and we are going tocall it a wrap.
So thank you Good.
Speaker 4 (48:35):
Now we will go to eat Enjoy.
Speaker 3 (48:38):
Enjoy, I have a wonderful day.
Speaker 4 (48:40):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (48:41):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (48:41):
Bye-bye.
Speaker 4 (48:43):
Bye-bye.
Speaker 3 (48:46):
We want to thank you so much for listening to today's
episode.
If anything in today's episodespoke to you, please like
subscribe rate and review.
Also, don't forget to sharethis podcast with friends and
family.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
And if there's anybody that you know that you
think would be a great guest onintuitive choices, please email
us atintuitivechoicespodcastgmailcom.
Finally, if you want to knowmore about our mental health
practice, intuitive counselingand wellness, please check us
out atintuitivecounselingofphillycom.
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