Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, everybody would
like to welcome you to another
episode of Intuitive Choices.
Today I am so excited to havean old colleague I should say
great friend, Tim Ragh.
He is a person that I metbecause he was, I'm like,
(00:26):
looking right at you, rightBecause he was going for his
license as a professionalcounselor and you needed some
supervision, right?
Speaker 3 (00:35):
That's right, so you
went on to psych today.
Uh huh, little therapist finder.
Yup, as she was with Ursula.
Oh no, yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
And you reached out
to me for some supervision for
your hours.
And we got on the phone andthat's pretty typical, right To
kind of like am I a good fit foryou as a supervisor?
Vice versa, and I distinctlyremember you were using a lot of
big academic types of wordsthat, quite honestly, I didn't
(01:06):
know what a lot of it meant andI had a lot of uh, huh, yeah,
great.
And we get to the end of theconversation and in my mind I'm
like, well, this isn't a fit.
I said, well, it was reallynice to speak with you and, like
you know, take some time, thinkabout it.
And you didn't take any time,you just said, no, this sounds
great.
And we scheduled, we scheduledsupervision together.
(01:30):
And, um, and we probably willwe'll talk about it later as to
like why you went with me asyour supervisor, right, what
that was.
But but it was um, so we, youdid that.
Then, um, you did get yourlicense and in the midst of all
of it, the pandemic happened.
And my end of that, of thatpandemic story, is that I had to
(01:52):
have an office suite inPhiladelphia and I did.
It was just me.
In my practice, I was a singlepractitioner and I just was
renting out my offices to othertherapists and, uh, then the
pandemic happens nobody's goingto an office.
And so, ultimately, I was likethis is the time I'm going to
try to expand, and I asked youif you would be my guinea pig
(02:14):
and you, um, it's um, it's muchmore simple.
I'm making this much moresimple than the decision
actually was for you.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
But you said yes, and
we lived happily ever after.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
No, so and uh.
But here we are, because you,oh and and a critical piece to
this story is you,single-handedly are responsible
for me and for Jacob and Iconnecting.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
That's correct,
that's right.
Speaker 4 (02:40):
You know, temple
connection, temple university,
yeah, yeah, we graduated fromthe same program Not at the same
time, luckily and I was doingone of my courses advanced
counseling techniques.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Uh-huh.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
We came in to give a
little presentation about your
work, your background and itvery much resonated with myself
and uh, dr Heidi Hutman gave meyour, your information, put us
in touch and then, when it cametime to look for a job after I
did not get any success, uh,reaching out to people on psych
today, uh, you said you weremaking uh, yet another life
(03:14):
transition, yep, and um, we dida little warm handoff and I kind
of like shark teeth, yep.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
That's right.
That's right.
It worked out perfectly.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
Oh, this is another
like really weird,
philosophically inclined verboseuh eloquent, uh young male
clinician and we're just goingto put you in.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
You know what's so
funny?
I do, I think this is a funnystory to tell, is um?
Dr Hutman, heidi, uh, dearfriend, now again, thanks to
both of you has become a verydear friend of mine.
But uh, when we were talking Iwas like I was like she's like
look, but here's the thing,they're like there's there's
some overlap in these guys butlike you can't just do a switch
out?
Speaker 4 (03:53):
Like it's like
they're not very different.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
You know, in her own,
like Heidi like but, that was
why I took her to the.
I was like no, no, no, totally,totally.
In my mind I'm like, oh, thisis going to be great.
I just have to remember to callJacob Jacob and not Tim.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
But you did very well
.
Yeah, I'm happy to hear that.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Better than my first
boss.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
Yeah, good, good,
good, oh, gosh and gosh.
What a shout out to Heidi.
Oh seriously, I love so muchlove for.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
Heidi, yeah, I friend
Tim, yeah, we mentioned briefly
and kind of hopefully, likeveiled it appropriately, that
you've been through sometransitions in your life, which
part of the reason I want tobring you on as an individual,
who who can be a little bit of acase study as our guest that we
like to have about how do youmove from one place in life to
another.
So without further ado.
Welcome to intuitive choices.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Thank you, gosh, I'm
so excited to be here.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
This is really great.
Yeah, I mean gosh.
I mean when you say that justmy mind just goes nuts with all
the different things that youknow, the transitions and
everything.
But you know, I think whatyou're getting at there is that
what I do now, which isdistinctly not therapy, is
farming.
I live at a farm, I work at afarm.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Literally.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
I work at a farm now.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
I'm gosh, what a
departure.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
An arrival.
Just yes, oh, precisely yeah.
Both hands, we might you mighteven say yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Distinctly different
from being in a little drywall
box counseling people one at atime.
Hey, hey, yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Don't knock it yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
That's right.
No, it's really important work,important work.
Speaker 4 (05:25):
What type of hats
have you worn throughout your
life?
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Oh, that's a great
question.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
That's a good
question.
I'm a doctor right.
Therapist oh, let's not forget.
Coffee master oh, black apronat Starbucks.
Worked at Starbucks for fouryears, earned that black apron
coffee master, that was a roleyou know.
Work to Trader Joe's for fouryears, that was sort of a
college gig.
But in terms of roles, in termsof like hats, like the thing
(05:51):
I'm doing now right isn't somuch actually direct production
of food, it's farm related.
I mean, it's part of a farmoperation.
But really what I'm doing nowin the hat that I'm wearing,
that I'm so, so, so excitedabout, that I think has so much
potential for the world is landmanager.
Oh, that's fantastic, Right?
So I'm really sort of likeproperty management, land
management.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
So open up land
management a little bit.
What is it?
Because that's not just like.
That sounds so much more thanbeing a farmer, it's really like
on another level.
Yeah, I didn't realize you weredoing that, that's great,
that's right.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
That's right.
So I think probably this islike let's just start talking
about permaculture.
Now you know this is You'regoing to have to define a lot of
terms.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
Yeah, it's
permaculture.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
You don't have a and
everybody you don't have an
agricultural-based audience.
So we got to that's right.
We're going to do somefast-mattering.
Everybody understands with yourbig words.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
More big words.
Yeah, it's very unbranded foryou, tim.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
So I mean, you know,
everyone's got their own little
elevator pitch.
Permaculture is a whole systemsdesign and decision-making
philosophy that is used todesign systems that meet human
needs without ecological cost.
So really meeting human needs,yes Like actually yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
I was going to say
like all of that, like
accidentally, wow yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
So permaculture says
like, look, oh my God, look at.
You know, the permaculture viewof the modern world is like oh
my God, look at everything thatwe've not accounted for.
You know, I need not invokemuch more than the fact that
we're all full of microplasticsto illustrate that.
Like, look at what we haven'taccounted for in a way that
we've been trying to meet ourneeds, you know, and so you know
(07:28):
, here's a little bit of whatI've actually been doing at the
farm this year.
We had and so you know I'mgetting ahead of myself a little
bit here Snipes Farm is where Iam right, and so we're in
Morrisville, Pennsylvania, we'rejust north of Philadelphia, so
we have this terrific programthat just started this year and
it's a connection with a schoolthat's nearby, called George
(07:49):
School.
George School is now coming toSnipes Farm and it's really
exciting.
It's just a religion program,right?
So all of the freshmen atGeorge School now every year
come to Snipes Farm for sixweeks and it's a service program
, right?
And so I was one of the peoplewho was on this.
I've got a background inteaching, and we'll talk about
that a little bit, and, you know, obviously got a background in
(08:11):
therapy.
People is what I do right and soI was there for the first
session for these kids arrivingat the farm for each of the
cohorts Because it's a differentcohort, monday through Thursday
and you know the way that Iframed it for them was like you
are here to help us because weare in earnest trying to solve
the question of agriculture.
If you think about it from thescale of global civilization,
(08:34):
we've not figured out how tomeet our needs in such a way
that we're not also wrecking ourhabitat and or exacting
incredible cruelty upon oneanother.
Right.
Thinking about prisoners thatare put to farm, thinking about
slaves and servants andindentured servitude, and we've
really not figured it out right.
(08:55):
And so what I said to them isdon't let the full supermarkets
fool you.
And so that really probably isthe best encapsulation that I
can give a permanent culture Donot let the full supermarkets
fool you.
And at the same time.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
we know that there is
theoretically enough nutrients
on the planet to feed the planet, we don't know how to get it to
the people.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
That's right.
That's right, that's right,without wrecking the top soil.
And there's actually.
I mean, you can find this stuffthere's.
You know, I've read once apamphlet that was in circulation
in the Senate in the 1890s andit was all about the crisis of
diminishing top soil and peoplewere, you know, posing in this
pamphlet that it was a realcrisis because there wasn't
going to be nutrients in thefood that we were eating in
(09:34):
short order.
That was 1890s, so, anyway.
So permaculture is this way ofgetting at.
How do we meet human needsacross all different types of
human needs, but doing it insuch a way that we're not, you
know, wrecking our habitat orexploiting one another, or
accepting incredible cruelty,and you're doing this at your
farm.
That's right.
That's right and really, youknow it's big, broad strokes,
(09:57):
right.
So permaculture there's apermaculture perspective for
thinking about a farm such asthe farm that I'm at now is what
is this here to do in terms ofthe region and the world?
Right and so?
We're thinking about that fromfirst principles what functions
do we want this farm to play,both in the local community and
in the wider region of the world.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
It's not just it's
not.
It's not as simple as to say iswe want, is what is the land
capable of and what can weexactly?
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
And so there's this
intricate matching process.
You take a really deepecological site assessment, you
figure out exactly what is goingon where you are in terms of
the nature that's there and whatis.
You know what, what you'recapable of doing in an ecology
like that and a natural settinglike that, and then you
secondarily take a look at whatthe human needs are, and then
you sort it out.
Speaker 4 (10:45):
I had no idea this is
where we're going to go today,
but I was just reading this,like before I came in this
morning.
But we, just so like the Jewishpeople over the world, just
began rebegan the cycle ofreading the Torah, which is like
an year long cycle.
And this is the first week.
Okay, so we're starting thisweek and so first story in the
Torah, story of Adam and Eve inthe Garden of Eden.
(11:06):
And when God puts Adam and Evein the Garden of Eden, he says
this is the, you should be inthe garden.
It's crazy to think people inthe Garden of Eden like was
there work to do?
Yeah, god put Adam and Eve inthe Garden to work, which is
we'll put that aside.
He says to work in the Gardenand to keep the Garden.
And then part of the exile fromParadise was they still have to
(11:31):
work and preserve and keep theland.
But now it says by the sweat ofyour brow.
So there's like another levelof effort and difficulty that's
going to be involved in that,but not exempting them from the
obligation of working whilepreserving the land.
So this is a regardless of ifyou're Jewish or if you're in an
(11:52):
Abrahamic faith at all, or evenif you're religious, to
appreciate that this is afoundational text of Western
civilization and parts ofEastern civilization.
And the first story says youhave to work your whole life and
it's not enough to just extractnutrients from the world around
you.
It's paramount, as afoundational base of
civilization, to preserve theland as well.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
Yeah, and from our
perspective at the farm, you
know, the family is Quaker right, and so one of the six core
values is stewardship.
Yeah, that's exactly whatyou're talking about right it is
stewardship of something ratherthan extraction from it.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
And the to be a
steward is the combination of
both work and service to thework.
That's right, yeah.
So, how did you become a farmer?
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Yeah, you are not a
farmer, I'm a steward of the
work, like.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
I'm sitting here and
I'm like God.
This is all really interesting.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Like this is so
interesting.
It's actually like a level thatI didn't even know right, yeah,
I'm just like like yeah, youwent from therapy to this world
and like I do think this is likea good time to kind of segue
into like I wrapping my mindaround like how did you go from
one to the other?
(13:07):
You know?
Speaker 3 (13:08):
Yeah, that's right.
It was about four, five yearsago where it became clear that
that was the direction that mywife and I were going, so sure
that my wife is the seventhgeneration of the folks in this
family that have stewardedSnipes Farm where it is.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
She happens to be the
11th generation in the county.
Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
But you know, she's
the seventh generation at this
farm, which was originallypurchased.
I think I'm right in saying itwas 1848.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
So it sounds like
real Pennsylvania Quakers yeah
yeah, like all the way you knowbefore Like original yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Yeah, because before
they were the Snipes they were
the Moons, right, and there'sbooks on books, on books about
the Moons that you know werepart of the first wave of
Quakers that came toPennsylvania.
You know 1630s et cetera.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
Yeah, it's pretty
amazing.
It's pretty amazing legacy tobe a part of.
Yeah, you know, one of the coolthings about the farm is that
it was a nursery for a very longtime, right, and so, you know,
I sometimes stop and just wonderin awe of how many trees in the
Philadelphia region you know,started life at Snipes Farm.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
Oh, that's fantastic.
Yeah, yeah.
And so it makes it a naturalfit, A nursery being a place
that would like foster saplingsand then be used to put it in
the woods.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
You know, sometimes
it was a tree farm right, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, andso you know that legacy is
there and that's one of thethings that makes us, you know,
so excited about permaculture.
You know, because that has areal emphasis on, you know,
perennial crops, right.
Tree crops right Things likechestnuts and hazelnuts, and you
(14:33):
know, even acorns.
You're foraging for white oakacorns.
I mean, people forget that youneed this stuff.
Yeah.
Right and you don't have to plowthe ground up to get it Right.
So, as you say, it's this youknow you're meeting your needs
through doing it, but whilstyou're doing it, you're caring
for it right and lo and behold,that is just being in a much
(14:56):
better balance with everythingelse around you.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Yeah, but did you
think that it would be like that
?
You would be this?
I don't.
I think it's like a bigger wordthan commit it Like, it's like,
you're really it's like it'sit's like you're one with it,
versus like when you're talkingabout four or five years ago.
This was sort of like always onthe agenda that you and
(15:19):
Charlotte would, you know, moveon to the farm and begin farming
.
But you went to school for amaster's in counseling right.
So there's like two very likedifferent, different things here
.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
that's exactly right.
And so, to complete the thought, right, it was like when we
realized that we were headingthat direction it was sort of
like well, you know, what doesone do with a farm?
You know, and thank goodness, Ifell down the rabbit hole of
permaculture.
You know, thank you YouTube.
Yeah, you know, really truly,it was like just just starting
(15:55):
to search for key terms and then, you know, sort of fell on that
it's not everyone that takes upa more difficult form of
farming.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
Like it's, it's
difficult enough to be a farmer.
That's why so many people moveto cities, you know.
So what is it within yourselfthat was like?
Permaculture is an authenticway for me to be a farmer.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
So two things, and
there's really rich connections
for me.
You know there's a whole otherconversation about Joanna.
Macy and Buddhism and generalsystems theory, and all of that
literally, and you know I'm notkidding you.
That all plays into why.
You know I it's not some.
You know, I feel that it's notso much that I found
(16:35):
permaculture as I recognized itof course right.
And you know I think about TickNaut Hanh talking about engaged
Buddhism.
You know, I would argue thatthat's what permaculture is.
In many ways it's engaged.
Speaker 4 (16:49):
Buddhism.
For people who don't know anyof those words that you just
said, absolutely Via describingyour work on the farm, can you
give us a taste of engagedBuddhism?
Sure, yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
That'll be helpful
for me especially as a mother.
We do.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
Permaculture is
wonderful because you can sort
of take it from the nuts andbolts and it's like well, what
would be the right place to putthis tree Right?
That's the question that youcan ask with permaculture.
But also because it's got suchan incredible emphasis on people
care and that balance betweenearth care and people care.
It's inherently a very powerfulsocial organizing tool, right
(17:25):
and so a lot of what I'm doingis actually using the clinical
skills that I was using as atherapist, that I was taught in
grad school, that I honed inpractice, to get people to
communicate with one another, sothat we fix the systems such
that they are doing what theypurport to do.
And so what I'm?
Finding is that there's thislike and I'm still sort of
(17:48):
bowled over by it, but it reallyfeels to me like the clinical
skills that I have are just likeit's like this is what the
world needs, right.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
And we need more
therapists right.
But there is a part of methat's like gosh, I hope there's
a bunch more of us.
So it's kind of like springforth from the therapy room to
sort of put things to rights,put things to rights in
nonprofits and put things torights at farms and all sorts of
social services.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
I feel how the things
you're saying are connected.
But, I don't know if otherpeople will know how they are
connected.
So can we put some more wordsto the feelings, and I think I'm
gonna go, maybe really bigpicture.
This is not usually where we gowith on the podcast, but it
sounds like you have an inherentworld view.
(18:38):
Yes, both how the world isinherently and how you'd like to
see it revealed and manifest.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
Yes, yes, well put.
Speaker 4 (18:47):
Let's try to describe
the worldview and then see how
that is applied to differentareas of your life at different
times.
What's the worldview.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
So the worldview,
yeah, the worldview.
And I sort of pointed to this alittle bit earlier, talking
about John Amacy and Buddhism,right, so at some point in my
life, I suppose in the early 20s, I sort of realized the extent
to which I'm suffering, and fromthat began this sort of long
meditation on the nature ofsuffering and that quite swiftly
(19:16):
brought me to Buddhism Allabout suffering.
Speaker 4 (19:19):
What's the connection
to Buddhism?
How do people like what issuffering, People who know
literally yeah, that's rightAbout Buddhism what to do about
suffering?
Speaker 3 (19:26):
Perhaps this is the
best way to put that.
Oh, it turns out you'resuffering.
We can tell you why that is andhow to become skillful in the
face of it is such that, yes,ultimately you're gonna
reconcile yourself to the factthat, inevitably, you're gonna
suffer, but whilst doing it,there's immense good that you
can do.
And so I think that that's whatshows up for me when I think
(19:47):
about Buddhism and that part ofit, so anyway.
So I think it also bearsmentioning that at the same time
that I was getting really intoBuddhism, I was actually also
getting into chaos theory.
Not only chaos theory, butstuff like complexity theory and
modern general systems theory.
What's chaos theory?
Chaos theory is this branch ofmath that comes around in sort
(20:09):
of the 80s right, and it's sortof like.
As I understand it, it's likethis one sort of eccentric
professor in each mathdepartment of universities
across the country, and it'searly internet and they start
sharing formula with one another, and we've got computers at
that time, and so they're doingall sorts of really cool imaging
based on really intricate math.
(20:29):
Basically, chaos theory sayslisten, everything in the world
is connected and everythingoperates in a nonlinear manner,
and so there is order, but it'snot where you imagined it would
be.
And if you want to get at theorder and you want to learn to
skillfully work with order.
(20:50):
To bring order into being, forexample, you need to acknowledge
first that everything isconnected right and that
everything inherently behaves inthis very nonlinear way.
Speaker 4 (21:02):
So it's intimately
related to the idea of the
fractal nature of existence thatthere are like root patterns in
the world both physical andspiritual Tendencies.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
I often say root
tendencies.
Speaker 4 (21:14):
That manifest
themselves in complex yet
identifiable ways at every levelof existence.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Yes, that's right.
That's right.
And complexity theory says thateverything is self-organized.
Yeah right.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
And so you're tapping
in to those macro ideas in
harmony with your understandingof suffering and Buddhism.
Yeah, that's right and that isembedding itself at the core of
your worldview, and you'reseeing your understanding of the
pattern of existence unfoldingin different ways again and
again and again.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Yes, Okay, guys.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
I'm gonna ask you a
question, Tim.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
I'm ready.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
How did you know you
were suffering?
Speaker 3 (21:54):
What did it feel?
Speaker 1 (21:54):
like.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Good yeah, thank you,
you're welcome, that's why.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Tim and I need Kim.
Speaker 4 (22:00):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Yeah.
I was like look, if I hear onemore term that I don't know the
definition of, yeah, good.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Grounding.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Grounding is
occurring.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Ground control to
major Tim Okay.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
So but all to
exercise like look, you know,
tim, what I you know.
It's so easy for us to and Ispeak like like for humans to
intellectualize, or like use ourthoughts to help logic through
and like create understandingabout the world around us.
(22:35):
Right, but you were like, andkudos to you for taking those
steps right, you do a lot ofreading, you turn to YouTube.
You I mean I know thispersonally about you that you,
like, went to a Buddhistmonastery for six weeks.
All those things are great.
And also, what does it feellike to suffer?
And how did you know?
Speaker 3 (22:53):
Yeah, yeah, a Judith
Herman comes to mind, the
psychiatrist who wrote Traum and.
Recovery.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Uh-huh, yeah great.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Dismemberment.
Okay, right, to be alone,that's how I knew I was
suffering, I was alone.
Speaker 4 (23:07):
I was alone.
But then you see the synonym.
So how do you know you're?
Speaker 3 (23:10):
alone.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
Well, I mean, you
know, I think there's another
part of the story, right that Imove here from England when I'm
12 in 1997.
And so you know, literally,there are ways in which I, at
that time, I was alienatedprofoundly.
Whoa, okay, wait, wait, yes, soyou moved from England at 12
years old, let's also talk aboutlike any.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
when you do a big
move Jacob, you and I have
talked about this.
I think doing a big move, likewhere you're like uprooted from
your hometown, move someplacedifferent, even if it's just
like a school change right in adifferent city, like that I see
it time and time again couldactually be like a pretty
traumatizing experience.
Not to assume that yours wastraumatizing, but to then I mean
(23:57):
we're talking about from onecountry to another, yeah, and it
was right.
Yeah, I'll just say it.
What traumatizing?
Yeah it was traumatizing.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
You know, I think
we're.
You know bold statement, butyou know, I think we're supposed
, roughly speaking.
I think we're supposed to becreatures of place.
Certainly we're supposed to becreatures of tribe.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
I mean goodness.
I mean, you know, theexpectation that you're supposed
to be able to thrive in.
These atomized immediate familyunits that have been, sort of
like, plucked apart and almostpurposefully alienated over a
period of decades consume moreyou know, refer to as the
atomization project.
You know we're not, you know soanyway.
So you know, yeah, traumatizingin a very much field.
(24:37):
Like I was uprooted and I feltthat it was later on in life
that I'd read trauma andrecovery.
If I Judith Herman, where shefirst proposes this idea to the
world, that there is such athing as complex trauma.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:49):
Chronic trauma.
Right, this is where this comesfrom.
And the added, one of the addedcomplexes I was imagined is the
uncanniness of moving from oneEnglish-speaking country to
another English-speaking countryand you're like why, like
you're speaking my language, Iam English, you're speaking
English and I have no idea whatyou're saying, or the cultural
cues, or even that you were youraccent right.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
I can remember like I
grew up on Long Island until I
was nine and moved to Floridaand I mean just made fun of
endlessly for the way that.
I talked right, even though,like we're all American, we all
speak English.
So for you, like you said,scrutinized.
So there's like this, likealoneness that you felt.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
And objectification.
I think through that, you know,because I try to express
something, I try to be heard bysomebody, and they would just
sort of marvel at the way thatmy voice sounded and perhaps
even on the heels of me, havingsaid something quite serious in
earnest would say say somethingabout the queen.
Yeah, you know and that'sobjectifying as well, right so
(25:52):
alienated and objectified tosome degree, and I think that
that's right.
The point about the languagetwo countries separated by a
common language.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,that's no big deal so like.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
but suffering, you
know, like, is a feeling, right,
it's like, it's a feeling youhave in your body.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
You know, I think,
what comes to mind in this
moment?
It's desolate.
There's a desolation of spirit.
You know, I felt an emptinessin my heart, a desolation of
spirit, like a complete lack oforientedness to what I was
supposed to be doing.
Right, because that's the otherthing you don't realize.
You know, it's one of thesubtler effects of moving from
(26:31):
one place to another it's, allof a sudden, the scripts have
changed on you.
What am I supposed to be here?
What are even the scripts?
I've not been in thiscollective consciousness before.
I'm not even like this operatingsystem and yeah, I'm supposed
to orient, lonely as I was,alone as I was.
Speaker 4 (26:49):
The sense of
suffering set in.
Or I'll say at what point didthe sense of suffering set?
Speaker 3 (26:55):
in as I started to
drift back down out of
dissociation.
Speaker 4 (26:58):
When did dissociation
begin?
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
You know 14.
So I moved here when I'm 12.
By the time I'm 14, mygranddad's died, my brother's
been hospitalized for the firsttime for a suicide attempt, and
you know that's you know Was heolder than you.
No 18 months younger than I am.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
And he's, you know
he's with us.
Still, I don't have arelationship with him, but you
know he's got schizophreniaright.
We didn't know it at that time,when, you know, he was 13 and I
was 14 and he was beinghospitalized for the first time.
Oh my.
God.
But you know, and then my dadleft, yeah, my dad, we were in
this wrong country, and my dadleft, and so, you know, it was
me and mum and my two siblings,and, yeah, you know, and so I
(27:40):
didn't even realize, I had noappreciation for how numb I was,
for how dissociated I was.
And you know, and I look backnow and I see a little bit of
derealization, I see, you know,depersonalization at times, and
so it's that.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
Yeah, people don't
know what those things mean.
Yeah, right, right.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
So I just sort of
feel not real.
So, to feel, like me, is noteven real, like the subject of
the experience, isn't even real.
And then, so you know, toanswer the question, the
suffering sets in when you startto.
You know you float back downout of the dissociation and
thank goodness for dissociationright.
It's a sort of the breaker onthe fuse box so to speak.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Say that all the time
it sort of gets you out of
trouble.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
It's a great
short-term solution.
Speaker 4 (28:23):
It comes at long-term
costs and in many ways, thank
God for the dissociation it'snecessary to survive.
Thank.
God for the ability to perceivethat you're suffering.
Yes, truly truly, truly.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
Skillfulness begins
there.
Yeah Right, I am suffering.
This is not what I want from me, and so skillfulness begins
there, but so doesself-compassion, doesn't it?
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Well did it for you.
Well, hopefully it does.
I mean that's unnecessary.
Speaker 4 (28:47):
You guys, I know you
know the pain of suffering, and
then I think self-compassioncould be one of the last things
I was just about to say.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
I'm gonna shoot from
the hip here and say I don't
think that self-compassionstarted.
I actually think you're heretoday having this conversation
because you think that you nowhave self-compassion.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
Yeah, yeah, that's
right.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
But I would argue
that your process to get there,
all the choices you've made,right Decisions you've made,
things that didn't go well,things that did go well, I think
all have everything to do withyou learning that.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
Yeah, and I think it
makes sense of the
intellectualization too.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
You know when I say
the beginning of self-compassion
.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
I look back and I
actually see this sort of just a
flailing attempt to solve theproblem, you know, and I sort of
articulate compassion as like adesire for suffering to cease
right, and so in some sense, Sayone more time A desire for
suffering to cease.
Speaker 4 (29:44):
What is it?
Compassion?
Speaker 3 (29:45):
okay, that's how I
sort of and roughly a Buddhist
conception of compassion, wherecompassion itself is a desire
for another being to not besuffering in the way that
they're suffering.
Just suppose against empathy,which I would just say is the
ability to imagine as though youwere seeing out from their
perspective.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
How did you know you
wanted to be a therapist?
Speaker 3 (30:06):
It was a very natural
consequence.
Thank you very much of tryingto do something with how much I
was suffering and I had.
You know.
I just hard to know at thispoint there's an argument to be
made that I just got accustomedto that sort of social problem
(30:26):
solving.
Let's say you know, and sort ofjust being on hand at 14, being
too old, too young sort ofthing you know.
I think that that's a lot of it.
Speaker 4 (30:35):
What type of problem
solving did you see yourself
engaging in?
Speaker 3 (30:39):
Just like deep,
constant attunement with my mom.
I was gonna say it was your mom, right With my mom who was
thank goodness I mean thankgoodness we had each other, but
she was the thing right when Iwas 14 and in the wrong country.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
I think it's so funny
that you keep saying it that
way.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
Yeah, yeah, 14 in the
wrong country and it's sort of
like, okay, yeah, I gotta propyou up.
Gotta make sure you're okay andnobody was propping you up, yeah
well yeah, yeah, but you know,I sometimes refer to this when I
was doing therapy.
I'd sometimes refer to this ascutting out the middleman.
You know, because there I wasas a teenager, right, and I'm
propping up mom instead ofpropping myself up.
(31:22):
Yeah.
Right, and you know there aretimes where that's perfectly
appropriate.
But if that becomes a patternthat you're no longer aware of
and you're constantly seeking tomake things better for yourself
by manipulating people aroundyou, well, as a 14 year old you
have limited access to resources.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
Exactly the gut
reaction for so many children in
a position like that is bystrengthening the caregiver,
then the individual can receivemore care.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
And you know I was a
Boy Scout.
A scout is helpful, yeah, Right.
Speaker 4 (31:55):
I was being helpful.
Yeah, idealistic, visionary,capable, intelligent, but 14.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
But 14,.
Yep, that's right.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
And so, in some ways,
was it a natural.
What did it feel natural foryou to become a therapist?
Speaker 3 (32:11):
Yeah, yeah, and I was
aghast.
I mean, being in a cohort ingrad school was a real
eye-opener to me, because Irealized just how much I'd been
doing it, and how skillful I'dbecome, and so for me, the
formal learning of it was more amatter of mapping the formal
concepts into what I alreadyknew.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
So that's really
interesting.
I wanna ask you why he'slaughing.
But I also wanna be like didyou really want to?
Did you really wanna be atherapist?
Speaker 3 (32:48):
No.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
Okay, I'm like.
Speaker 3 (32:50):
He was a therapist.
Speaker 4 (32:52):
It's not he was a
therapist and he needed the
degree to get paid for it.
No, but what I mean is I don'twanna speak to you.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
No, no, no but, yes,
but also like I think that it
was so natural for you to,because you were already doing
that work, and I think yourmotive to want to like make it
official, so to speak, is allreal.
But when I think about likedoing therapy, like I'm just.
(33:19):
That's why I'm asking Like doyou?
Really actually want to do that.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Right, I mean I'm
down to that Want to be that
right Like not yeah.
Yeah, I mean, part of it isgrowing up in therapy, okay, and
having had really badexperiences of therapy but also
having those really goodexperiences of therapy, right,
and so it was something, andthat was when I got to grad
school and it's just like wait,I'm like one of two people in my
cohort who's been in therapymyself as a client.
(33:45):
That's incredible to me.
Yes, I mean that was definitelypart of it.
But yeah, I think you'rehitting the nail on the head,
kim, because certainly this wasmore true when I was in school
for my undergraduate degree, forearly childhood education, and
I encountered plenty of peoplewho'd known that they were gonna
be a teacher since they were inkindergarten and had like a
very fleshed out image of thatin their mind of them, an image
(34:10):
that they were identified with,right, it was an image of
themselves doing the thing thatthey were working toward that
they'd identified with.
That definitely wasn't true forme.
It was more okay, teachingdoesn't quite feel like the
right fit and so perhaps I cando something just adjacent and
oh huh, if I really look at thisfrom the perspective of what
(34:33):
are the skills that I have andwhat does the economy need, I
could make money working as atherapist.
Okay, so it really was.
I think you're absolutely right.
I think it was much less imagedriven.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Wow, but then I'm
thinking about the evolution of
your life so far as you've livedit and I'm just like it's
almost like you had to gothrough all of you went through
all of that to learn, to kind ofkeep nudging you in a direction
(35:09):
that was ultimately going toallow you to do something in
your life that felt more aligned.
Yeah.
Does that feel true?
Speaker 3 (35:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
There is without doubtsomething drawing me forward
into form.
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (35:27):
The vocation yes what
.
The word vocation comes fromthe root vocal like a call, and
so when I heard what Tim wassaying, that talks about being
drawn forth, it's actually beingthe calling.
It's what we say is a calling.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
We talk about the
calling all the time, but that's
what he was saying.
Speaker 4 (35:48):
I know and I'm
reading a lot of call young
right now.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
So I said I said but
it's like you blurted it out,
Like I was just like, didsomebody say that?
I'm going to be totally honestit?
Speaker 4 (35:55):
is not so common.
I get to sit in a room withsomeone who I just know it's
going to like be there.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
I'm so glad that you
have this right now.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
I actually was like
all morning I was like I cannot
wait.
I've even like told a couple ofpeople I was like cannot wait
to get Jacob and Tim in the roomtogether.
Like I just feel like magic isgoing to happen.
I don't know if it's going totranslate.
Speaker 4 (36:19):
No, we're going to
have various etheric
conversations.
I got to edit out because nowI'm going to like, even if they
could theoretically beinterested, if we like,
explained every term is like notwhat they're going for in this.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
You need like a
little jingle or something right
now A little etymologicalmoment with Jacob.
Speaker 4 (36:35):
Ethymological side.
I think my wife wishes therewas one also at home.
Speaker 3 (36:41):
Just turn to look
directly into the camera.
Break the fourth wall.
Ethymological moment.
No, seriously, you know, thebest psychologist I ever saw was
so heavy on the etymology, ohreally Like slowing me down.
Wait, slow down.
Let's think about that wordthat you just use.
It's powerful.
Every time you speak, you castthe spell.
Speaker 4 (37:02):
Slow down.
You know, he's really great,yeah, yeah.
Okay.
How do you know when you'rebeing called toward something
authentic, as opposed to adistraction or an illusion or
yeah, as far as I can tell, thebest rule of thumb at this point
is that it hurts.
So for you, what kind of hurts?
It doesn't sound like it'ssuffering hurt you were just
(37:24):
talking about it opposed to adistraction.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
No wait, it didn't
hurt.
This is like Suffering didn'thurt.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
This is like tension
hurt.
No, you're saying it's adifferent type of hurt,
different type.
Speaker 4 (37:31):
Okay, yeah, as
opposed to the desolation of the
suffering that I was referringto before.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
This is much more of
like an agitated, restless,
tense tornness.
Speaker 4 (37:42):
Okay, staring at a
profound truth and not
inherently wanting it to be true.
Speaker 3 (37:49):
Yes, and mustering my
courage to not be a coward
about what I've seen what.
I've glimpsed that needs tohappen next.
Oh my God, yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Did you feel that way
when you decided to leave
intuitive counseling?
Speaker 3 (38:02):
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Describe that
experience for you, because we
never talked about it.
It would be cool to do it likeon the air.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
I was on my last legs
.
It really had been sort of outof the frying pan into the fire
from the community.
Mental health facility thatyou're in From grad school, no,
from grad school into that, okay, and so this really was a safe
place to sort of land, butreally not terribly resourced,
(38:31):
yeah.
But you know, loved workinghere, loved the folks that I
worked with, of course, but yeahit was.
It was really difficult and Ifelt very lost and I knew as
much that it was a logicalstopping point that I was moving
(38:52):
physically to a different place.
There was a thing that washappening with my family.
My fiance then, as she was atthe time, and I were moving to
the farm, moving to her family'sfarm.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Which is something
that you had always known was
going to happen.
Right, that was a part of the.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
Had been for four or
five years.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
Yeah, exactly, yeah,
absolutely.
Speaker 3 (39:12):
Friends of mine have
actually joked in the past that
my sort of storyline is somewhat, like you know, 19th century
Jane Austen novelism.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it
is a little bit.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
Packing up and we're
off to the home farm, back up to
the home farm or whatever.
But yeah, you know, when Imoved, you know I knew that I
needed to rest and my basicvision was like well, you know,
at the very least I'll givemyself three months.
And.
I'll see about finding apractice in lower Bucks County,
somewhere you know where it canbe a part of a group practice,
(39:43):
Because you know we reallydidn't appreciate at that time
just how swiftly we would becomeso central to the operation at
Snipes Farm.
And so at that time, you knowit really was, and everybody and
you know, and Charlotte'sfamily, was expecting for me to
continue to do therapy and then,like, on a much slower basis,
on a much longer time frame,we'd slide into the operation
(40:03):
and the management andeverything that didn't happen.
Yeah.
And when I was leaving it wasyeah, it was.
It was really difficult.
Yeah.
And I was very, very torn.
And you know, of course youknow.
The other thing to talk aboutthere is that part of the
context is just financial fearand anxiety, you know not
exactly a safety net here tospeak of, I mean especially
(40:24):
coming from a Europeanperspective you know it feels
dangerous.
You know, life here just sortof feels like you're on a high
wire all of the time and there'sno net below you.
No, but yeah, no, it was a timeof consternation.
Speaker 4 (40:36):
It was a time of
inner conflict.
Speaker 3 (40:37):
It was a time of deep
fear.
Speaker 4 (40:39):
What's the?
Speaker 3 (40:39):
conflict.
You know it was the bestcompromise that I'd come up with
at that point was that maybe Icould get away with doing
something like three days oftherapy a week and then I'd
spend the other days, plus theweekend, you know, growing
shiitake mushrooms and having acouple of like small scale
farming integrations that overtime I could sort of slide into
(41:02):
the main operation.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
That's nice farm.
Speaker 3 (41:04):
But mostly what I had
in my imagination was that you
know, I'd find a group practiceto be and then the you know sort
of homestead on the side, andthat we'd.
You know we'd slowly becomeintegrated, but I didn't want to
do it, you know.
Speaker 4 (41:17):
I didn't want to do
the slow integration or the
split self therapy.
Yeah, I didn't want to dotherapy.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
And then I knew it
and it's not because I didn't
want to do it, and you know,this is where I'm going to begin
to get a little bit morehalting right, because we're
dealing with hyperobjects andgestalts and things that
actually cannot quite bearticulated into English.
It's really hard to put thesefeelings into words, but I just
(41:42):
knew that there was somethingelse that I had to do.
There was more, and, you know,important context here, I think,
is to talk a little bit aboutclimate change and our moment,
and so that's what I'm referringto quite specifically when I
felt like there's more that Ican do, there's more that I can
do and especially here, right,because it's sort of you know
(42:03):
what are the rough heuristics Dothe most that you can with your
gifts and with your assets,roughly speaking, something like
that.
And it was like oh, okay, so,oh, it's so, it's going to be us
, out of all of the cousins thatare like moving to Snipes Farm,
that are going to be the nextgeneration.
Like I was talking aboutearlier with permaculture, what
(42:24):
does one do with a farm?
Well, you know, that questionis being asked in the context of
like what are the farm produce?
Organic vegetables right.
Speaker 4 (42:32):
Broad speaking.
Speaker 3 (42:33):
Yeah, organic
vegetables.
And it's also an educationcenter.
So there's a terrific summercamp that operates at Snipes
Farm and Education Center.
You know there's an afterschoolnow.
The farm goes out to localschools to do programming,
nutrition, programming, schoolgardens, that kind of thing.
It really is amazing.
It's a nonprofit, it's a 501c3.
(42:55):
And we just couldn't be moreproud of the work that it does.
Speaker 4 (42:59):
That's fantastic.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
Yeah, it's like the
family's like baby, like the
family's like in it for likethis, like no, we're just, we're
here to do good.
What good can we do here?
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Well, and it's so
fascinating because I maybe this
is a little too woo-woo, but Ijust think, like you met
Charlotte Yep, and you've beentogether, I think, for 10 years.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
Yeah, that's right
For family.
You did Congratulations.
It's like the wedding, thankyou, it's beautiful, wonderful.
Speaker 1 (43:25):
Yes, congratulations,
and you.
She just so happens to have afamily farm.
Yep.
Because I look at it reallyzoomed out where, where and when
.
You're like, I didn't liketherapy.
It just didn't feel like it wasenough and I'm going well, it's
not so much that, it's enoughthat you get to grow shiitake
mushrooms or that it's enoughthat you get to.
(43:46):
You know that you created thechicken coop, that you created
the chicken coop, that youcreated right Things like that.
It's, it's, it's this, likelarger.
What have you been called to doin this lifetime?
Yep, and all these differentpieces have come together to
allow you to actualize thisthing.
(44:08):
And then again, going back towhat I was saying a little while
ago, like that, you know, youwere, you were going through
these life experiences that werejust helping to kind of nudge
you along To put you in theexact place.
Yeah, with the exact people.
Yeah, and I don't want to makeit sound like it was just magic,
like poof, this stork justdropped you right, it's nice.
Speaker 4 (44:30):
Right.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
That's not what
happened, you know, but because,
of course, there was like amyriad of decisions you've had
to make along the way, which isagain.
Like the whole point of ourconversation is like how did you
know to make those choices?
That's a rhetorical.
I don't need to answer thatright now, but it's just like
it's a little bit blowing mymind how you ended up, how you
ended up where you are right.
Speaker 3 (44:52):
Now that it's like
everything that you've lived had
kind of had to happen, noteverything, but most things I
love, the woo, and let me extendthe woo a little bit further
because you know, I had beenvery unsuccessfully dating using
, you know, online platformslike okay Cupid, when I met
Charlotte, and so I was workingat the parent infant center in
(45:14):
West Philadelphia.
Now that would have been likewhen I was in school, sort of
finishing up my education degree, my undergraduate degree.
Okay.
So I was working with this guyand I distinctly remember
plucking up my courage right,and so a little bit of context
here is I identify as somebodywho's on the spectrum like, and
I distinctly remember pluckingup my courage to like do
(45:35):
something out of the norm for me, which is to really try to
foster a kind of connection withthis guy, and I thought he was
just so cool.
He's from Oregon, he's fromOregon and he took one look at
my Subaru at the time and hesaid man, you would love the
West Coast.
And I just I'm sure I likeblushed at the time.
Anyway, so we have this littlebit of a connection right, and
(45:56):
it really was memorable enoughthat I was growing, I was in the
growing edge there.
I really like put myself out ina limb, and you know, in short
order, one evening he said hey,man, you got a bike right, you
bike here?
I said yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I just moved to WestPhiladelphia, right, which is
terrifying.
I finally made it out of thesuburbs down to the city and I
was living down in West Phillyby myself, and so I said yeah,
(46:16):
absolutely.
And he said you got to comeback to my house for pizza.
Nice.
So yeah, I was my first bikeride across the city.
You know, of course, it was awhole other conversation.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
That sounds
terrifying, by the way.
Speaker 3 (46:26):
Terrifying yeah
absolutely my goodness.
Speaker 4 (46:29):
But I meet Charlotte
right and so she was there the
house, having pizza also.
Speaker 3 (46:33):
Right and the plot
thickens because the way that
she'd met this guy's this guy,craig's girlfriend at the time
is she'd been at a karaoke barand she caught sight of this
woman.
And so this day cannot tell youwhat possessed her to walk
across the room to introduceherself, but that's exactly what
(46:54):
she did and that's how the twoof us were introduced, right.
And then those folks, sophieand Craig, moved out of the city
, sort of three months later,something like that.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
They were on their
way, they did their job.
So Charlotte met this perfectstranger, introduces herself and
says we need to be friends,right.
Speaker 3 (47:12):
Yes, yes, we need to
be friends.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
And then I think it's
10 years later I know this
story because this is the storythey told, one of the stories
they told at their weddingceremony that happened last
month and then said and thenthey've been best friends for
the last 10 years, but that's.
You were brought to thisgathering, she was brought to
the gathering and you guys.
Speaker 3 (47:33):
And we connected,
yeah, and 10 years ago.
Speaker 4 (47:37):
And Craig and his
girlfriend had no intent of like
.
Oh, that's like no, nomatchmaking.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
Yeah, it really.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
it really was sort of
like they almost couldn't,
because neither one is you knowCraig or what's her name.
Speaker 3 (47:52):
Sophie.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
Sophie knew, like
Sophie didn't know Charlotte
well enough.
Yeah, I didn't know you all,right, so but again it like, it
just goes back to like when youthink about you know, like when
you think about your life'smoments not just you but I think
anybody who's listening to this, you know, because there is a
level of like hindsight.
You know we can kind of makethose connections and go wow,
like if that hadn't havehappened, this would have never
(48:14):
right Again, had you notpresented in Heidi's class.
Jacob would not be sitting inthis room with me.
You know what I mean.
It's like it's really.
Speaker 4 (48:23):
But in each of those
moments, as much of these like
serendipitous divine moments asthere are.
It always requires theindividual to act.
Speaker 1 (48:34):
And tune into what
they're experiencing inside.
Right they're, they're theguidance right.
The whole point of thisconversation is like what does
that feel like?
How do you know what that is sothat you can follow it?
Yeah Right, like even Nilekused to have a Charlotte.
Like how did she know what wasit that was happening for her to
(48:55):
be like?
I gotta go and this is there'sno language, jacob.
Speaker 3 (49:01):
You said act, yeah,
and the word that launched into
my mind was resolve.
Speaker 4 (49:08):
A fixed meaning of
anyone's experience, the
opportunity to resolve, to act.
Speaker 3 (49:14):
But I think also
there's something about.
I mean, if we're all so complexand we're also interconnected
all of the time, doesn't it meanthat each instance is a moment
in which the universe isresolved into what it actually
does rather than all the thingsthat it could have done?
There's like this sort ofpairing down.
That's the moment itself.
Speaker 4 (49:35):
That's like the
impossibility of an actual
moment and the imperceptibilityof the actual moment.
There's the reflection of itand the anticipation of it, but
there's no perception as it'scoming.
Okay, tim, I think we touchedon a little bit in our
pre-interview.
Maybe we even touched on it abit in the beginning of our time
(49:56):
today, but you mentioned it.
Maybe took you a little longerthan the traditional undergrad
to finish your undergraduatedegree.
Speaker 3 (50:04):
What?
Speaker 4 (50:04):
does that even mean?
Speaker 3 (50:09):
A little longer.
Yeah, so I guess in the Statesit's four years.
Speaker 4 (50:13):
It's a sort of
unstated expectation for a
bachelor's degree.
And how long it take you Well.
Speaker 3 (50:19):
I graduated high
school in 2003 and I got my
undergraduate degree from Templeearly childhood education.
That was 2014.
That's my math is about 11years.
Speaker 4 (50:33):
Were you enrolled in
the program that entire time?
Speaker 3 (50:36):
No, no, no.
When did?
Speaker 4 (50:37):
you get enrolled into
a program.
Speaker 3 (50:39):
That was late, and so
I finally resolved to go for
education, but before that I hadbeen in theater, and so, before
that, really truth be told, Iwas sort of by default of not
having any other plans.
I was at Beloved MontgomeryCounty Community College, thank
(51:02):
goodness for it.
Speaker 4 (51:04):
My mom is a teacher.
This one, she loved it.
Speaker 3 (51:11):
I just flopped around
and failed things and withdrew
from classes.
Speaker 1 (51:18):
You failed Like you
failed classes.
Speaker 3 (51:21):
By virtue of failing
to withdraw.
It was just calamitous Right.
So my brother's schizophreniacontinues to develop, all this
through time and gets much moresevere, and so really what I'm
doing is my family life and justtrying to navigate that as best
as possible.
I had a friend die in theretragic circumstances, and that
(51:45):
was just.
I'm just going to drop outagain, whatever this is meaning.
But why even being enrolled?
Truly Right.
Speaker 4 (51:53):
No, I mean it.
Why did you enroll?
Why didn't you work?
Why did you feel compulsion tobe in a university?
Speaker 3 (52:00):
I was looking around.
I was living in Ambla and we'dmoved from Bluebell and I knew
what it would be.
I wasn't somebody who'd had anyexperience with blue collar
trades or anything like that, soI knew damn well if I didn't
(52:24):
persevere with higher education,the best I could do is sort of
be like a manager of a retailstore or something like that.
Speaker 4 (52:33):
And you didn't see
that as your life.
I just couldn't Right, but why?
Speaker 3 (52:38):
I listen to say this
in such a flip way.
But I mean, there's a degree towhich an answer to that which
is appropriate and true is justradiohead Like the band yeah
like the band sort of blew mymind wide open.
So, like I said, I moved herewhen I'm 12.
(53:00):
And you know what's happening?
In 1997 and music is okaycomputer came out and I think I
listened to that album and justthat album for years and to this
day I would argue that theywere extraordinarily prescient
in their writing and producingof that album and that they
captured the sort of crisis ofmeaning and the nihilism that
(53:24):
came to a point years after thatalbum came out.
But they were seeing it, theywere expressing it's almost a
reference is also like dataism,right, dataism like post World
War One.
It's this like expression ofthe horror, it's like just
letting out a little bit of thefeeling of the moment.
And I think that radiohead weredoing that with okay computer
(53:46):
and it really affected me and itwas just such emotional depth.
Speaker 4 (53:50):
And that is what
drove you to do your best to
stay in school.
Speaker 3 (53:53):
Right, yeah, to do
more To escape the nihilism,
yeah like, yeah, it was meaning,it was pursuit of meaning, but
it was also pursuit of findingsomething to do with myself in
an incredible, like I mentionedbefore, in an incredible vacuum.
Speaker 1 (54:07):
So wrong country you
were able to extrapolate all of
that.
No, I can extrapolate that.
That's sort of a hindsight.
Speaker 3 (54:18):
But yes, I mean you
know, and you know it speaks
volumes of what is communication.
But yes, certainly I mean theriches, riches game from from
that album and their followingalbums for me and it really sort
of kept me in because there'sthis yearning in it, right Like
at the end of the day, if youlisten to something like that,
(54:40):
at the very center of it, isthis really deep, very, very,
very earnest desire for us tonot be squandering human life in
the way we are.
It is atrocious, right.
And so you hear in that albumtheir dissociation, their
lostness in the absurdity ofjust.
You know you imagine being ontour and like playing stadiums
(55:03):
and stuff like that.
And you know you.
You know you spend time inurban centers in the United
States of America and thenihilism is there.
Speaker 1 (55:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (55:13):
I had this push.
Speaker 4 (55:15):
Yeah, my grandfather
passed away and it congratulates
the sentiment of how do I getthe most life for my life?
Speaker 1 (55:21):
I think that's the
same sentiment Right?
How do you?
Speaker 4 (55:24):
get the most life for
your life and people do not.
And she's like whoa man, likecalm down, like you're gonna
like give yourself an embolismis like you know you can.
You can do that in in in a in acontrolled and beautiful way.
That doesn't mean tofrantically grab life, yeah it
means it means to create asystem for yourself where you
maximize your selfhood.
Speaker 1 (55:43):
Yes, so what a
visualizing of you navigating
that.
Your college experience is notso much what you're describing
Jacob it actually sounds sobeautiful and eloquent how you
described it but rather likekind of a little bit like a lost
boy, you know, and and justbeing like this, almost like a
little bit of a fear of, okay,if I don't do this, what would I
(56:07):
do?
So I'll just do this.
Speaker 4 (56:09):
Yeah, I hope I spoke
to the seed, not the experience.
Speaker 1 (56:14):
But yeah, so I'm just
like, but then and then you
said something really important,which is a really great, it's
just a fantastic thing, which isperseverance.
Yeah, yeah.
And yeah, that interesting howmusic can really really help
help people to, to kind ofchannel or get in touch with
parts of ourselves that we needto.
(56:34):
But, yeah, but to have I?
Just how did you continue tofail classes, drop out?
You know the money right, allthe, the money that, like,
you're not recouping if you'rehow is your self image being
affected during?
Great.
That's sort of where I was likegoing with us yeah.
Speaker 3 (56:50):
Yeah, I mean immense
shame.
You know, I just sort of cameout of my, my teenage
experiences with it just immenseshame and gosh.
You know.
You know, a little bit beforewe got got to recording we were
talking about attribution andgosh.
You know, I really hadconcluded that I was the problem
.
You know.
I mean, you know, let's be alittle bit more accurate A part
(57:13):
of me had concluded that yeah,at the very least yeah.
And so you know it wasdifficult.
But you know again, thankgoodness for dissociation you
know, especially when you don'tknow that it's happening.
Okay, it just sort of gives youenough elbow room to like put
one foot in front of you in themeantime and it's like yep, okay
, you know, like gosh, you know,the image that comes to mind is
(57:36):
working at Starbucks and beingdone with a shift at 1245 at
night and being on the hook tobe back there to open at 445 the
next morning and just sleepingin the parking lot.
you know that's how I gotthrough that time One foot in
front of the other, not not evenknowing the degree to which I
was the word.
Speaker 1 (57:53):
Faith, then, because
I was a grit.
Well, grit for sure, but, likeyou have to have some degree of
faith in what the what am I,what it like I just, yes, you
had grit, but it's like there's.
You put one foot in front ofthe other, but we could argue
that not everybody puts one footin front of the other.
Speaker 3 (58:14):
Yeah, here we're
getting to, you know, a much
deeper internal conflict andexistential conflict, you know.
So I was.
I was brought up Church ofEngland and I was confirmed
quite early on, before we leftEngland, when I was 12 years old
and I distinctly remember Imean I was on board, I was
totally on board.
My mom's side of the family hadbeen very Christian.
You know, my mom was like goshshe was.
(58:36):
There's so many generations ofwomen in her family have been
married at that exact samevillage church.
You know, back through history.
So anyway, so you know, fastforward to my confirmation.
My dad's side was, was atheist,you know, my, my, my
grandfather.
My dad's side was a researchchemist with a, with a PhD,
which is incredible because hecame from a mining family, so
(58:57):
that was only that way by virtueof scholarships, etc.
Most of his friends, you know,stopped being in school at like
13 years old or whatever, butanyway.
So he takes me aside on the dayof my confirmation and this is
where this grand split reallyfirst starts to take and he says
listen, take this with a grainof salt, take all of this with a
grain of salt and never forgetthe more people have been killed
(59:19):
in the name of gods thananything else in human history.
And so you know, simultaneouslythere's humanitarianism in that
right, very secular, atheisthumanitarianism.
But, also in.
That is a rejection of thedivine that I had been feeling
as a little lad sitting inchurch listening to him, and it
(59:40):
does.
It does feel different in theUK, the Church of England,
really, it doesn't.
You know.
The next nearest thing here isthe Presbyterian church, I
suppose.
But you know, I really did feelit, I really did feel it.
And then there was this splitthat was introduced.
You know.
So when you're talking aboutthat, kim, and you're talking
about like, is it grit, is itsomething?
Speaker 1 (59:57):
else.
Speaker 3 (59:58):
And when I say faith,
I'm not really speaking to
religion, I'm speaking like yeahokay, right, but but yeah, like
you know, and so I had you know, this one part of my intellect
that you know, that you knowrapidly during my teenage years,
sort of internalizes everythingthat you typically internalize
in terms of like materialist,reductionist, modern scientific
(01:00:22):
thinking, right, the scientismwe don't talk enough about
science as a religion, scientism.
So I internalize that.
And yet what perseveres,despite that, is the ineffable
qualities of knowing damn wellthat I'm a self.
What does that mean?
(01:00:43):
Oh, my goodness right.
Speaker 4 (01:00:45):
I know what do you
say when you're well the, the,
the.
You know what he means.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:00:51):
So when you're a self
what does that mean?
Speaker 3 (01:00:53):
So let me put it this
way.
So here's science telling methat my experience of perception
, my experience of consciousness, my experience of noticing
anything, or awareness, oremotions, it is all just an
emergent function of the rightright, right, right, right,
right the brain okay.
Right, and I knew that wasn'ttrue.
Yeah.
Despite also believing it to betrue, right, so talk about parts
(01:01:16):
work, I mean that was the sortof grand split that sets in, and
so to some degree a throughline for me, and, you know, one
might sort of evoke the image ofan ember has has has been that,
knowing damn well on theineffable level that that which
cannot quite be articulated, oryou know adequately, yeah, that.
(01:01:38):
I am real and I am here andthere is something to do with me
.
Speaker 4 (01:01:44):
Science becomes
science to scientism, as he said
, when it makes.
The science should tell youwhat you know.
Yes, so I can talk about whatyou know.
Yeah, but when it makes theleap and says well, you, you're,
your selfhood doesn't exist,because we have no way to
determine it.
There's actually beyond scienceit is, there's not, and
endlessly frustrating to me,having like studied, like you
(01:02:04):
know, my background inneuroscience and philosophy.
Speaker 1 (01:02:06):
That's right, that's
right.
Speaker 4 (01:02:07):
And I'm very grateful
for Dr Dr Jeremy Tissere, being
my advisor and his openness to,to selfhood and phenomenology
and even mystical, yeah,experiences in general, but I
just it's such a shame that wedon't hold space for the mystery
(01:02:28):
and beauty of selfhood thatcannot be quantified.
Speaker 3 (01:02:30):
Yeah, you look out at
the world right now and look at
the folks who are teenagersright now, the folks who are
young adults right now, justflailing around suffering
nihilism.
Yeah, needlessly.
Needlessly Because I mean youcan even get out at an agnostic
level, right, I mean we justdon't like.
Why are we peddling this stuff?
(01:02:51):
Even if you take the scientismworldview as it is, there is
inherent meaning in engaging incompassionate acts.
Speaker 4 (01:02:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:03:00):
Yeah, right, and so
why, you know it's.
I almost get to the point whereit's like, oh gosh, like me,
thinks the lady does protest toomuch.
Speaker 4 (01:03:08):
But then it's like
but why?
You know yes, yeah.
Cause you make people depressed.
You sell more iPhones like comeon.
Speaker 1 (01:03:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:03:15):
Is it really that you
know it can't be that easy.
Right, right, right.
Speaker 4 (01:03:18):
Right, wow, and I was
reading a book by Rolo May
called the meaning of anxiety.
Mm-hmm.
And he brings a quote fromSarenkirche Raward, where he
says I'm paraphrasing, but it'ssomething along the lines of
like the scientific method givesus more facts and less
(01:03:38):
certainty, mm-hmm.
And that lack of certainty iswhat creates anxiety, and the
anxiety could be like you know.
In the face of that anxiety, doyou accept it, which leads
denialism, perhaps as a hopes toalleviate the anxiety yes,
exactly.
Or do you fight back againstthe anxiety and this may become?
We can come a little fullcircle, a little perhaps.
Speaker 1 (01:04:00):
I don't know, guys we
are, we are Bring it around,
bring it around Ready.
Let's see what you think ofthis one.
Okay.
Speaker 4 (01:04:08):
You know, Tim, I see
the brief, the brief glimpses of
your life that you shared withus today, during the recording,
is your inherent drive to orderyourself.
There was so much chaos, bothinternally and externally around
you, and a constant attempt toorder that by caring for
(01:04:31):
yourself via caring for yourmother, via caring for yourself
via work, and caring foryourself via embracing the
suffering of being in school orattending to complete your
degree over 10 years andembracing, like there's a love
of self in that, even thoughit's painful and in a lot of
ways that's what education canbe is.
This is gonna be difficulthopefully not painful.
(01:04:52):
This is gonna be difficult, butthrough embracing this
difficulty we're going to growthe self Now, in continuing to
do so, which you have notstopped yet it got you to right
it got you to being an educatorof children to an educator of
yourself, an adult, via therapyto the point now where you've
(01:05:12):
learned that you are a farmer.
Speaker 1 (01:05:17):
Yeah, that's right,
but not even just a farmer, but
like he's teaching again, butlike doing it in this-.
Speaker 4 (01:05:23):
That's a higher and
higher level of alleviating the
anxiety via embracing theordering power of a certain type
of love.
Yes, and that's what I'mfiguring out more and more over
the last couple of months.
That keeps hitting me in theface.
Speaker 1 (01:05:36):
The ordering.
Can I just say that?
Back to you the ordering powerof love.
Speaker 4 (01:05:41):
Right, that love has
the ability to create order in
chaotic systems.
Love, oh my God, guys, that'sthe name of the episode.
Speaker 1 (01:05:53):
Love has the ability.
Oh my God, Ursula Love has theability say it again.
Speaker 4 (01:05:59):
Love has the ability
to create order in chaotic
systems, and maybe I get thetitle or not, but I think that's
just what I've seen.
Speaker 1 (01:06:07):
Like it's true, true
again and again.
Speaker 4 (01:06:12):
And I'm just grateful
that you were able to tap in in
that internal love for yourself, even if you didn't know.
That's what it was.
We are going to find order thatcomes out of this type of love.
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3 (01:06:23):
And what comes to
mind is?
I referred to complexity theoryearlier, right.
So, organization that isexactly what you're talking
about the move to higher andhigher orders of organization
that work better and better.
Yeah, and it's love it's lovethat does.
Speaker 1 (01:06:38):
What an interesting
direction this whole
conversation went in.
Speaker 3 (01:06:41):
I knew it would be
something, but I could never
predict it, I've been, soexcited I've been so looking
forward to this.
It's been really good to beback here.
It's been really nice to spendthis time with the two of you.
I mean just, I'm not practicingtherapy right now, but I tell
you what I mean to be amongsttherapists is just such a joy,
to be amongst people who are sothoughtful and like-minded and
(01:07:05):
intuitive right and.
I think it bears repeating, kim,that that is exactly what made
me feel at the end of thatinitial phone conversation that
you and I had, that I wanted towork with you.
And then sitting here with youphysically for that first time
was what confirmed it for me.
You know, I sort of knew, butit confirmed it for me and it
was just, it was all aboutintuition.
The times in my life I'verefuted because it's supposedly
(01:07:29):
not real right, but I've broughtit along with me nevertheless
out of faith, and I think thatwas correct to use that term
faith when we were talking aboutthat earlier.
And thank goodness you know,because look at where I've been,
look at where I've gotten toand you know, watch me go.
(01:07:49):
As you say, Jacob, right, it'slove it's love that does this.
It's love that moves everythingforward and continues to
resolve things into the way thatthey will be, and we have
immense power, and that, I think, is a takeaway.
You know, I wanna sort of geton the top of the tallest
building and just like yell itover and over and over again.
When we're talking aboutnihilism, there is something to
(01:08:10):
love.
Yeah, yeah.
And you and in everyone else.
There is something there tolove.
There is an object that you candirect that love toward.
We just have to keep refutingthis insanity that we are not
real.
Yeah.
Right, which is little meatrobots.
And you know we're very directto love and when you say we, I
(01:08:30):
just wanna when you say we, youmean the perceived conscious
self.
Speaker 4 (01:08:37):
Yes, that's right
that our consciousness is real.
We have a mind, we have a soul.
There is something there thatis profoundly real, and that's
what's to be treasured and loved.
And loved.
Speaker 1 (01:08:47):
And loved you and in
everyone else.
Yeah, that's right.
Okay.
So, speaking of love, I loveyou very much for coming on here
.
It feels like a real gift.
Feels like a real gift thatI've met you and I just just
like, I just have gratefulnesslosing from me All right.
Speaker 4 (01:09:07):
Thanks for thanks for
Kim.
Thanks for the love you havetowards your clients to make a
practice.
So, that we could.
We could meet here as well.
Yeah, that's, that's comingfrom your life.
Speaker 3 (01:09:16):
Great for you.
Thanks guys.
Yeah, absolutely, it's true,okay.
Speaker 1 (01:09:20):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (01:09:22):
Thank you so much for
listening to today's episode.
If anything in today's episodespoke to you, please like,
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Speaker 1 (01:09:39):
And if there's
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