May 28, 2024 • 35 mins
In part 2 of 5 in the "Road 2 Resilience - Unleash your inner strength"
Host Andy and registered psychologist Stu McKenzie discuss the concept of the "relationship highway," highlighting the evolving nature of priorities and values throughout life. Stu McKenzie and Andy Fermo delve into the importance of developmental psychology beyond childhood, emphasising that growth and change persist throughout adulthood.
They stress the significance of values clarification and strengths identification in fostering personal development and well-being. The conversation touches on the notion of "mental fitness" as a crucial aspect of overall health, drawing parallels to physical fitness.
The hosts explore coping mechanisms for navigating life's challenges, distinguishing between gradual transitions (voluntary off-ramps) and sudden upheavals (catastrophe bridges). The metaphor of grief as a static circle within life's expansion resonates, emphasizing the importance of processing loss while continuing to grow.
Overall, the episode advocates for proactive self-awareness and resilience-building to thrive amidst life's uncertainties.
Key Takeaways
- Developmental psychology extends beyond childhood, impacting growth throughout adulthood.
- Values clarification and strengths identification are integral to personal development and well-being.
- Practicing mental fitness is as crucial as physical health in fostering resilience and coping skills.
- The metaphor of grief as a static circle amidst life's growth underscores the importance of processing loss while continuing to evolve.
- Gradual transitions (voluntary off-ramps) and sudden upheavals (catastrophe bridges) represent different challenges in life navigation.
- Cultivating proactive self-awareness and resilience-building is essential for thriving amidst life's uncertainties.
Contact - Stuart McKenzie
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Claire Fermo (00:05):
Welcome to invisible injuries podcast,
aimed at bettering the wellbeing and mental health of
veterans, first responders, intheir immediate support
experiencing post traumaticstress. By sharing the stories
of the lived experiences of ourpeers, or support staff and the
clinicians, it's our aim to makesure we can have a meaningful
(00:28):
connection with our audience,and give them the ideas for
their own self care plan. If youdo like what you're hearing,
subscribe to the channel andshare it with your friends.
Lastly, these stories may be atrigger for your post traumatic
stress. If your PTSD istriggered, we have links to
(00:49):
support in the description. Orif it's immediate, please call
lifeline on 1311 14. Here's yourhost, Andy fermo.
Andy Fermo (01:01):
In the last part of the chat, we had a student
explain his story, and andbackground and how he came to be
writing this the map ofresilience, and the unleash your
inner strength ebook, we wentthrough an overview of all the
12 components of this map. Andif you haven't done so already,
(01:25):
I invite you to click on thelink to get a copy of the map.
So you can refer to it. It's onour on the description, or a
stream has also been very kindto be able to share a copy of
his ebook, which is verycomprehensive. And what we're
going to be unpacking a fair bitnot all because there's so much
information and key points. Thefirst part of the of the of the
(01:48):
map, though, do is relationshiphighway. Oh, we're on the
highway, you know, so can youcan you speak to a little bit
more of that.
Stu McKenzie (01:58):
I will. I just wanted to preface that with the
with the really great book thatwas released in 2021, by a
professor of psychology atColumbia University by the name
of George banana. And he spent acareer studying resilience
studying grief and loss. And hewrote a book called The End of
(02:21):
trauma. So his like, his idea islike trauma is just being
bandied around everywhere. Now.
Everything's traumatic,everybody's traumatised. And he
was quite critical of that. Andso he wrote a book called The
End of trauma, how the newscience of resilience is
changing how we think aboutPTSD. So that's the title of the
book, because that's a boldtitle, the end of trauma. Now,
(02:44):
the new science of resilience ischanging the way that we think
about PTSD. Yes.
Andy Fermo (02:53):
And I think that that's a big one there that you
just mentioned, is changing theway that we think about it. Yes.
Right. Is it going to end? Or isit the continual but you have to
keep working on it? There's theother facets.
Stu McKenzie (03:03):
Yeah, yeah.
Because how we think aboutsomething, yeah, the stories we
tell ourselves about somethingbecomes the reality of that
something. Yeah. So changing themind. So it's important to
examine the stories that we tellourselves. Yeah,
Andy Fermo (03:17):
look at it from a different light, you know,
Stu McKenzie (03:20):
I always say, as a psychologist, my job is to work
with you around the issue. AndI, what I do is I look at it
from this angle, let's go aroundthe compass. So I look at it
from the south point, then Itake you to the West Point, and
we look at it and I'll take youto the north point. And we look
at it, I take you to the EastPoint, and we look at it maybe a
(03:42):
couple of east west southwestpoints. And by the time you've
looked at it from all of thoseangles, it's completely changed.
So often. So that's just myrole. That's what I do I hold
space. Yes, that's, I thinkthat's
Andy Fermo (03:55):
a three dimensional world. We can go north, we can
check the different factor inthat sphere, right. And so
that's, but that's take, Ithink, just sort of, from what
my understanding of what you'vejust said, then you it's not
just linear and just onedirection, because you know,
you've got to look at it from adifferent angle to unpack it and
go, Well, if I was looking atsomething from this angle, what
(04:17):
am I observations from thisparticular viewpoint
perspective? Is
Stu McKenzie (04:22):
everything Yes.
And it's caught in that lovelylittle saying, when you change
the way you see what you seechanges. And I really love that
when you change the way you seewhat you see changes. But back
to George
Andy Fermo (04:40):
No, no, no, no, that was good to be able to preface
that definitely. Yes, JesseGeorgia and
Stu McKenzie (04:45):
Georgia was that relationship
Andy Fermo (04:48):
and you know, this is this is like taxiing down
that sort of bit to get to thehighway. Yeah, that's the way
Oh, yeah, we're on the on ramp.
That's a good way gatheringspeed momentum. We talked about
the motion part piece earlier.
So
Stu McKenzie (05:00):
Well, George banana did some study around 911
When that happened, and theyflew in psychologists from all
over America expecting there tobe this huge demand for post
traumatic stress counselling andpeople sitting around twiddling
psychologists sit aroundtwiddling their thumbs. The
demand never came the slot ofpeople desperate for support,
(05:20):
never game. And he was reallyinterested in why that was the
case. And he proposes thatpeople are overwhelmingly
resilient to adversity. And whatwe often interpret as PTSD are
signs of natural processes ofgrief. So they're misinterpret.
So this is a misunderstanding ofgrief and grief such a it's a
(05:43):
tricky cat. Yes, because it'sdifferent for everybody, you
know. And it can it is. It's aunknown quantity. But I'm
learning how to do so. So heproposes, after four decades of
research, that we need todevelop a set of strategies for
(06:09):
managing strong feelings.
Because in the end, what he saystrauma is is a dysregulated
nervous system. So it's yourfight or flight response. It's,
it's I want to get out of here.
Or I'm angry, and I get angry atpeople. So it's a fight flight,
sympathetic nervous systemresponse, I'm going to fight you
or I want to get out of hereanxiety. And what he suggests is
if you can if you've got a deepset of strategies that you can
(06:31):
use to regulate your nervoussystem, where's the trauma?
Andy Fermo (06:38):
Does that make sense? Yeah. And as Yeah, no,
you got me in thought here tosee the shofar.
Stu McKenzie (06:43):
And what he says is one strategy will work for
you once in one context, but itmight not work for you again,
the next time in anothercontext. So you've got to be a
scientist about saying, right,that didn't work. I push that
away, I'll go to my nextstrategy. Is that working,
square breathing, no squarebreathe, it's not working for me
now. Right? I need to distractmyself, no distractions, not
working, I need to go tosomething further I need, I need
(07:04):
a deep and wide set ofstrategies to reregulate my
nervous system in the moment.
And if I can reregulate mynervous system in the moment,
where's the trauma, there is notrauma. Because that's what
trauma is a dysregulated hypervigilant nervous system. So
Andy Fermo (07:19):
disappears. The
Stu McKenzie (07:21):
end of trauma.
Andy Fermo (07:24):
Very invariant, hey, that I put yourself out of
works. But so definitely, andobviously, it's had an impact on
can we just sort of mentionedthat what was the name of that
book?
Stu McKenzie (07:38):
George banana. And that's how I spelt it wrong. No,
no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It'sx actually spent. Spelt B O N A
N N. O. George Bowen. Right. Andthe book was called The End of
trauma. And then
Andy Fermo (07:56):
so how was it that, you know, sort of what, what
really paid you with his book?
And your synopsis of it, thenwith the end of trauma? And how
does that sort of relate to whatyou're talking about here? In in
in, you know, even if we weredispersed a component in here?
Was that the relationship? Well,how does it tie in?
Stu McKenzie (08:13):
I think what what it ties in for me is that each
stage each step, each place onthat map that we went through in
the last episode, there's a setof skills that are going to that
we need to develop to navigatethat, yes, successfully.
Andy Fermo (08:31):
Perfect. Yeah. And then so that sort of sets that
preface there, as you weresaying, is putting the things in
place, so that we can manage it,even though you know, we talked
to like the end state, there wasthe end of the trauma, but it's
actually putting, putting thingsthat might work for you in your
particular situation. And it'snot just, you know, it's
situation dependent, but also,this might work for me today,
(08:53):
but it might not work tomorrow,but I've got something else in
the tool or this might
Stu McKenzie (08:56):
mean this moment, but not in that moment. So what
are the skills what other skillscan I draw on? And particularly
that's a swamp of feelings, thekind of analogy but it but it is
about developing the attitudes,the knowledge and the skills to
navigate each stage andrelationship highway? We finally
got there. Yes.
Andy Fermo (09:13):
We've we've come in we've, we've gone through the
merge onto the freeway, and we
Stu McKenzie (09:20):
know Western Australians is hopeless and
hopeless
Andy Fermo (09:23):
and merging. But now we are at speed. We've crossed
over the lanes and we're on.
We're on the relationshipHighway, which I'll just preface
there is a meaningful life isbuilt on the foundation of
quality relationships. Yep, yep.
Well, that's
Stu McKenzie (09:36):
where, what what matters in the end, I think if
Gina Rinehart all the money inthe world, what's her
relationships like with herkids? They're all in court.
They're all fighting each other.
I just think it's a I just thinkit's a values campus problem.
But I'm not genuine heart. Sothere's just you know,
everybody's values aredifferent, and we'd do well to
(09:57):
understand whatever values, andreally the work that we do on
relationship highway, is we dovalues clarification work. So I
can say to you my values,freedom, flexibility,
authenticity and autonomy.
Because I've done the work onclarifying my values, and our
drive my decision making fromthose four values, freedom, I
(10:19):
have to have the choice to moveor move jobs, I need to be able
to move I can't be constrainedin flexibility, I need to be
able to shift my attention andmy focus and cope a little bit
probably with a little bit ofattention deficit. Freedom,
flexibility, authenticity, and,you know, I, I work to be the
(10:41):
same person I am, regardless ofthe setting and to drop masks
and being an authentic person inthe world. And autonomy is part
of the reason why I do well isbecause I don't want to be owned
by an organisation. Yes.
Andy Fermo (10:54):
And you know, it's great that you're working from
those values. And even just sortof mentioning earlier on and
call with your story there. Andhow you've come to talk about
this. And this is, we talkedearlier on about a different
theme, right, which was flippingthe script and, and seeing what
your values are, even though youmight not be able to be in this
pigeonhole of, okay, I'm justgonna work just nine to five and
(11:15):
do this and the flexibility, youwant autonomy, you want to be
able to have the choice to beable to change all these things.
And what was the fifth, thethird, the fourth one,
Stu McKenzie (11:27):
freedom, freedom, flexibility, authenticity, is
the authentic,
Andy Fermo (11:31):
you know, and to be yourself and love, regardless of
what setting. And that sort ofdrives exactly where we are with
this. And, you know, I thinkthat that's a lot of things
there in terms of thatrelationship highway, because
those are things that we seek
Stu McKenzie (11:42):
is where you do the work when you're not, but
when you're not going throughsomething. Yes, this is the
preventative proactive piece.
You do when you've got a bit ofspace in your life, where you're
on a relationship where you'renot getting knocked over. These
are the skills that you canbuild. But people we don't stop
to build those skills, becauserelationship always zoom isn't
lost. Grace going, you know,where? How do we create the
(12:05):
space, the time, and this iswhat I like about what I call
light therapy. When I say light,I mean is in heavy, heavy and
light. And that's some that'ssome therapeutic work you can do
around skills, building andpower, building the skills of
resilience through through alight therapeutic approach
rather than a heavy, deep,psychoanalytic.
Andy Fermo (12:27):
Right.
Stu McKenzie (12:28):
Do you know, heavy therapeutic approach?
Andy Fermo (12:31):
Because not everyone, not everyone is right
into going into that, that deepreally takes a lot out of you,
doesn't it?
Stu McKenzie (12:38):
Well, that's back to the old Freud. And Jung, you
mean psychoanalysis? You know,they've been in psychoanalysis.
10 years? So it's for the richpeople really? Yeah. But, ya
know, we're talking, we'vedeveloped a little company
called single sessionpsychology. And there's there's
a whole range of contemporaryknowledge coming out that you
(12:59):
can achieve an enormous amountin a single session. Yes, even
if you only have one.
Andy Fermo (13:03):
Right. And then that's it. And then so what's
going to it's what's containedwithin that session there. Yeah,
to be able to cover thequestions you're asking. Yeah,
the main, the method and theframework.
Stu McKenzie (13:13):
Yep. And there's a whole growing body of evidence,
which is actually a disruptor.
In the psychology world? Well,because
Andy Fermo (13:20):
then that's the whole thing about where's my
money? Yeah. Well, you try it,you just tried to shut down your
home, then by saying the end oftrauma, right. So nothing is
fixed change there, if you'renot flexible with you what it's
doing. And so when we're talkingabout things like that, that
preventative and proactivepeace, you know, I'm reading
here in the eBook, you know,we've got the relationships with
(13:42):
others relationships with livingthings, nonliving things, and
ourselves, and then relationswith it, or the spiritual
spirituality, I paste, youmentioned that right at the
start of our talk. So can youcan you speak to that a little
bit more?
Stu McKenzie (13:57):
So I suppose the quality of our relationships
determines the quality of ourlives is what we said, you know,
and for me, I mean, that's avalues question, too, because
because some people might findother ways to have a quality
life without qualityrelationships, but I don't know.
But the piece, the piece thatwe're really interested in, you
(14:17):
know, the piece we're interestedin is, is the relationships with
ourselves, our thoughts, ourbehaviours, our bodies, our
expectations, that's the piecethat is the real work to do.
Yes, you know, unless you've gotan unless there's anger
management issues, and you'repushing other people away. It's
always about a relationship withyourself anyway, everything
comes out of a relationship,when you get the relationship
with yourself. Right. Everythingelse gets, right.
Andy Fermo (14:39):
Yes. And, you know, and sort of moving from that
generic and and I almost gotcaught out on that as well. Just
because we're on a, you know,we're talking about veterans,
first responders in theirimmediate support within that
community, and ecosystem andworld is, you know, I think that
what you were just mentioning,Stu, was that relationships with
yourselves once you are nolonger You know, a serving
(15:00):
member of whatever, organisationwhether it's a military or or
first responder, right andredefining yourself in that
relationship. You know, that'sreally big, you know, thoughts,
feelings, body expectations,dreams, or even overcoming some
of those the egocentric typestuff, yes. Those barriers that
you might sit on yourself. Yeah.
Because that's what you define.
(15:22):
Yep. You?
Stu McKenzie (15:25):
I, yes, I agree.
And you're right. It's thosetransition moments that
challenge people, isn't it wherethey've got to re reinvent
themselves moved from a verystructured way of being in the
world, yes, to a veryunstructured way. And so you
lost a little bit of who am Inow? Yes,
Andy Fermo (15:42):
etcetera. And so you mentioned before you you get
locked in, in your book as well,you know, you got this
fundamental truth of life, isthat all relationships change,
can you can you just expand onthat a little bit more I can.
Stu McKenzie (15:57):
As we grow, what's important to us that 12, at six,
eight is different to what'simportant to us at 18 is
different to what's important tous at 24. Now, it's interesting,
when I went to uni,developmental psychology
finished at about 20. So thatwas, that's the study of
developmental psychology. Butwhat we've realised is
(16:20):
development and change neverstops. So it happens in your
20s, mid 20s, it happens in your30s, it happens in your 40s, it
happens in your 50s, it happensin your 60s, happens in your
70s, that happens, right to thepoint where you let go of the
world, and move out of theworld, all of those have their
particular unique developmentalaspects. And when I say that, I
(16:42):
mean, psychology has studiedsome of that development. But
But I think that, you know, thisawareness that we could give as
much attention to the stages inthe 20s of development that we
gave to those childhood stagesof development, obviously,
developmental psychology was itsown field focused on kids, which
is a huge field, but what wasthe field focusing on people in
(17:03):
their 20s? Nothing? So I'msaying that that is really
that's really expanded?
Andy Fermo (17:10):
And where are you seeing it now? You know, sort of
you've talked about like backthen that there was not really
that much.
Stu McKenzie (17:15):
I think there is that growing awareness now that
development never stops, Changenever stops. And with the world
moving faster, and faster andfaster Change never stops. We
are in a VUCA, I think is theacronym, which is volatile,
unpredictable. Karen, what
Andy Fermo (17:34):
the hell? Yeah. Oh, that's okay. We can find out and
then you can Google it, youknow, the Google or chat GPT
might be able
Stu McKenzie (17:44):
to, what I wanted to say is, is the work
particularly that we're focusingon in the relationship highway
stage is very valuesclarification so that you can
come out with a clearer sense ofwhat your values are, and
strength, what are yourstrengths? So there's the VIIa,
which is the Values in Action,which gives you your top 24
strengths? Yeah, we'll work onyour top five character
strengths. So what are they? Arethey teamwork? They vitality?
(18:09):
Are they prudence? Are they anynumber of character strengths
that has a huge science behindit now? So because that
Andy Fermo (18:17):
gives people empowerment is what they've got,
you know, you know, that sort ofthing about being enough? You
are enough? And if you identifythose strengths that we're
talking about now?
Stu McKenzie (18:25):
How do I drive those strengths into what I do
in my life, and the evidence isthat if I drive the strength in,
drive those strengths into whatI'm doing, I'm going to
flourish, I'm going to be, I'mgoing to have high well being,
and I'm going to find meaning inlife, because I'm using my key
strengths. But if you don't knowwhat your key character
strengths are, you can't do it.
So there's something key here tome about values clarification,
what are the values that droveme and I can articulate them?
(18:48):
And what are the strengths? Whatare my top five signature
strengths? They call them? Sothat's signature
Andy Fermo (18:55):
strings, right? Yes, strength? Yeah, like power
moves, right? Boom. This is my,this is my string. And I think
that there's when when people dothat, and following, like, a lot
of, you know, support forums andthat in the work that that I we
do is that when you actuallywhen when you see someone have
that that light bulb moment, andthey don't you can actually see
(19:17):
from almost from some of theposts that were that that
change, you know, like sometimeswe talk about, you know, that
things like social media can bereally toxic when people are
wanting to vent. But then wedon't actually acknowledge as
much when people actually sharetheir wins, which is, which is
the growth piece when you go Oh,yeah. That person or the, you
(19:37):
know, that shifted, somehow andsomething might have in their
sphere has shifted for them nowto be in a different mindset.
You know, they might have someclarity about you know, who they
are, they might have gone on ajourney. It might take some
time, but then when they startposting again, oh, well, you've
had some growth here and like,you know, this is clarifying.
You are yeah, I've come back nowin a better way in a different
(19:59):
mindset. Not so toxic? In what?
Stu McKenzie (20:02):
We do see that?
Don't you do get a littleglimpse into people's lives on
what they post?
Andy Fermo (20:06):
Oh, yeah, big one there, you know, sort of, I
think that's the old EW and recoming down and, and analysing
those little bits and pieces,you know, it's like, what's
different about the tone? Andyeah, these things, what's the
w, that was the trade that I wasin, in the military as an
electronic warfare. So you getyou get you get a whole bunch of
information that was coming infrom many different sources. And
(20:28):
then you'd sort of analyse itand go, here's the here's the
gist. Yeah, here's the gist ofwhat's happening. And an example
would have been, like, when wewere in Afghanistan, we'd used
to listen in on, they calledthem icons, these these radios,
you know, like a walkie talkie.
And then you know, someone wouldbe talking about the tone would
be someone, and then anothertime, and that person's the same
(20:50):
name. But they sound verydifferent. The way they talk is
different, their tone isdifferent, something's happened,
have they have they no longerwith us. And then someone's
taking the same name, but assomeone else, or as what the,
you know, these things aretalking about red flag, yeah,
red flag. So all these littlethings, and that was part of
(21:11):
piecing together, you know, inthis context, again, of what
we're talking about, withrelationships and, and having
clarity around it. We, you know,we've identified strengths, and
we've identified the values andthen getting some clarity around
where we are on the relationshiphighway. Now. So without
unpacking too much of it. Isthat Is that something that
we've sort of covered? Yeah,well, terms of the
Stu McKenzie (21:35):
last piece around values and strength. The last
piece is, is what we call psychoeducation.
Andy Fermo (21:41):
Okay, that's very important. I don't want to miss
out on that, though. So
Stu McKenzie (21:43):
psycho education is, is maybe like our first, the
first episode we did, which iswhere we learn what psychology
has discovered about being humanand in the world, and it's
evidence based and, or differentways of different knowledge.
It's the knowledge piece, it'sso it's, I hear, it's
understanding that, that there'sa process that I'm going to go
(22:06):
through, I'm not going to bestuck in this swamp for forever,
because the thing about emotionsis, when you're in them, it's
like, they possess you. It'slike, it's like, you're gonna be
there for forever. It's like,you can't see you lose hope.
Yeah, I'm stuck here forforever, you know, but but
having a piece ofpsychoeducation, which says,
well, we'll know because there'ssome other places on this map.
(22:28):
And here's the here's actuallythe way through. Yeah, that that
psychoeducation. Yes.
Andy Fermo (22:34):
And that's the big one, and you just spoke to it
earlier on is that the educationpiece, but also training, to
look at it from a differentperspective and change training
the mind to look at it from thatbit.
Stu McKenzie (22:46):
So if you go, if you go to the last piece for
relationship, which will bemental fitness, yes. And so that
mental fitness is understandingthrough psycho education, that
mental fitness is just asimportant as our physical health
as the food we eat. And thatjust like brushing our teeth
every day, we could also getinto some habits of practising
(23:11):
the 10 skills of mental fitness,for example.
Andy Fermo (23:15):
Yeah, I mean, you just coining that now. I look
out for the new ebook comingout. Every good publish in the
US. That's amazing. So you know,mental fitness, strength, the
clarity. They're amazing. Yeah.
Stu McKenzie (23:31):
So there's the work in relationship I
clarifying your values,identifying your top signature
strengths, doing somepsychoeducation around this
resilience and grief and lossand the world and understanding
mental fitness and bringing someof those habits into our ways of
being in the world.
Andy Fermo (23:46):
Yes, yeah. And that all comes down to as well just
to summarise in the two wordsthat you did mention right at
the start of this word, which isthe preventative piece, and the
proactive peace and proactive isthe actual learning. And the
preventative is actually goingthrough this even though you
might not be experiencing itright now. Exactly. You know, in
the now like you spoke aboutpeople don't want to deal with
it until they're dealing withit. Exactly.
Stu McKenzie (24:07):
That's why yes, that's why all of these are
positively focused. And really,I suppose the benefit of that
word, mental fitness coming intoour lexicon coming into, is that
mental health or Well, certainlymental illness has got a stigma.
You don't tell anyone thatyou've got a mental illness.
(24:28):
Mental illness has a stigmamental health as much as they
tried to shift mental illness tothe people use mental health as
if it's a problem. They say theyhave a mental health problem, or
mental health becomes a negativeword. And I suppose the good
thing about evolving to thisidea of mental fitness, is that
a lot of the stigma aroundhealthy mind. practices to give
(24:54):
our mind well, yes, there's nota stigma around mental fitness.
No,
Andy Fermo (24:58):
oh, that's Yeah, and like, you know, sort of it cuz
it's like, you know, sort of youbeing from a military point of
view, you might you know, whenyou're in, you can be fit,
you've got this regime of beingreally physically fit and
strong. And you get out in likeyou let yourself go, you're
trying to find yourself and thenyou go, Well, I'm not working
out I'm not doing these coolthings now and then you start to
get you're not you're not fitanymore. Link
Stu McKenzie (25:20):
the link down there. Yeah, all of those
aspects are linked to a link toeach other,
Andy Fermo (25:26):
like a muscle. Yes, the invisible muscle, right, the
invisible fitness that we'retalking about. And that mental
strength fitness, that can beworked? Yes, yeah, you know,
we're, we're, we're doingworkouts for this. And you
wouldn't
Stu McKenzie (25:38):
send you don't send soldiers into active duty
without enormous amount ofskills, building, preparation,
fitness, you know, mindset, youknow, absolute training. And I
suppose what I'm sort ofsuggesting here with the
relationship highway work, isthat life is going to come and
throw us some real challenges.
And none of us are going toescape that because that is
(26:02):
life. Loss is going to knock atour door, as I said before, but
what are the what's thepreparation work we've done for
when that comes? Yeah. Andthat's back? Well,
Andy Fermo (26:12):
yeah. of hope, the fire drill in the fire. And the
military, and even in the firstresponder. Well, they they do
that? Yeah, that's calledrehearsing, going away. So just
say, if there's deploymentshappening, and you can, you
might have it set in a sort of,if it's a bit more of a, a more
of a peacetime military role,both happens is that you're
going away for training, andyou're working up and you go
(26:35):
somewhere, and I'd speak to sortof the training that we were
doing during that sort ofreally, operationally focused
period, is you go away, you'd goaway to these training, you go
away with the people that we'retalking about to wrap this up,
right. We are there with yourcompany, you got to know,
relationships. Yeah, you'reseeing what the values are,
what's happening here. How do wedo this together? You're
(26:56):
building that you've got clarityaround what I'm talking about?
Yeah, I'm talking from a contextof being within the organisation
still, yes. But then I think ouraudience will also connect with
that, because you go, we'redoing this. This is what we did
when you're in Yes. Now, this iswhat we're talking about, that
you can be doing. When you'reout here. Yeah. And working on
those other bits. Yeah. ofmental fitness. Yes. Especially,
(27:20):
you know, in on the relationshiphighway before. Before we see
that big detour. And you know,when we're coming up to the
bridge, you see what'shappening. happens here in LA
many cities. There we are. Geez,look, I look at my Google Maps.
I've seen a big red sign. I'mdriving along. I see. It's red.
Everyone's banged up. You seeall the brake lights coming on.
(27:41):
And everyone's slowing down.
What's going on here? We'regonna have a sticky beak right
at the freeway on the freeway.
Yes, yes.
Stu McKenzie (27:48):
Someone breaking down on the
Andy Fermo (27:50):
16th. I'm
Stu McKenzie (27:53):
gonna have to slow down at all. The
Andy Fermo (27:55):
RSSI. But so we're talking
Stu McKenzie (27:59):
COVID was a test free bridge for the world. Yes.
Wasn't that we
Andy Fermo (28:03):
are We there was a cause. And so as we're going to
that catastrophe dry, so holdon. Did we miss one section?
Well, he's a voluntary offeringtheir voluntary offering for the
bridge. So that's, is that whatwe're kind of talking about here
now. So we've seen that there'ssomething happening, right?
There's something's bubbling inthe distance, or maybe? Yes,
(28:24):
yes. So we got to volunteerbecause we're talking about, we
have to get out now. Because
Stu McKenzie (28:29):
the difference between catastrophe bridge and
the voluntary off ramp is you'reexactly right where you said we
can see something bubbling onthe voluntary off ramp, so we
can prepare ourselves. We'repreparing ourselves, mentally,
we're going through it overtime, a lot, a person who dies
of a long illness, and weexpecting them to go so across
all that time we've been doing,we've been making things, you
(28:49):
know, we've been processing andso most of the time, they
actually slip away the worksdone. Yeah, because we saw it
bubbling. But the differencebetween voluntary off ramp and
catastrophe bridge is that youdid not see it coming. It comes
in sideswipes. You.
Andy Fermo (29:02):
Whatcha Yeah. And so,
Stu McKenzie (29:05):
so that was perfect. You did a good job of,
Andy Fermo (29:07):
yeah, the left loop operation left right punch, it
comes in, swaps in and knocksyou out. That's almost like a
king hit from the, you know,from the side that you didn't
see. And so what what would yousay is as the that some point?
How does, how does, how do thosetwo things sort of interlink
from when when you can
Stu McKenzie (29:30):
get to I suppose the concept is relationships
will change at some point. Andthat some point is either
catastrophe bridge, or thevoluntary off ramp. Yes, at some
point. Yes, at some point andmost of their relationships
change on the voluntaryoffering. Most of the time. It's
slow, it's gradual. It'sevolution is not quite the word.
(29:54):
It happens over time. It'sgradual, we change we grow, we
develop
Andy Fermo (30:00):
So just say if I'm putting it into context of of
someone that's been, you know,as a military or first
responder, and that voluntaryoff ramps there, say voluntary
off ramp, you can seesomething's bubbling now and you
make some changes in but you doyou separate, right, you know,
because he would have spoken toquite a lot of people in regards
(30:20):
to their transition out of themilitary. So you've got guys,
you've got members that takethis voluntary off ramp, but
they leave on their terms. Butthen you've got some, you know,
and then there's a transitionprocess there. And then, after
you've done that work that youtalked about old grandma, you've
done the work they've passedaway, you've still done all that
work. Yeah. But in, in, in somein many cases, though, you know,
(30:42):
like, we're talking aboutsomething where it's physical
or, like, you know, a mental,were medically discharged,
saying yes, or, or something'shappened, or even. It's come and
sideswiped you before you readto it took away your vision away
the vision board, you expectedyour life journey to be That's
right. expectation andeverything. So now it's been
(31:03):
taken away. And then that's notvoluntary, is that that's kind
of that's that catastrophe foryou.
Stu McKenzie (31:09):
I think it's certainly more of that that
catastrophe bridge theme whereit wasn't. We weren't an agent,
we had no say in it. We didn'tsee it coming. And it kind of it
just, it's come. It's justhappened. Yes. So. And if you
(31:35):
say that, yes. Coming? Yes. Andobviously, it was last saying
you're not on the right. Or, youknow, it was about rebuilding a
set of beliefs really?
Andy Fermo (31:43):
Well. That's right.
I mean, it was like a no, no, Imean, I only mentioned this, the
spirituality piece there, andyou'd like to get that get that.
But that was definitely a signfrom somewhere that said, Hey,
mate, this is a slap to the facetoday, Hey, wake up now. or
something's happening. Yeah,we're gonna give you a big sign,
whatever that might be.
Stu McKenzie (32:00):
Not that I had that meaning for me at 23 or 30,
or even 35 or 40. It's aboutmaking that it's about
consciously creating the spaceand time to reflect and make
that meaning. Because in theend, when, when we are bereft by
(32:21):
Yes, by grief, we all stay stuckin it, or we, we make meaning of
it. There's a lovely littlediagram of grief, which I love
because it honours grief sobeautifully. Kubler Ross has
stages of grief, where youremember them denial, anger,
avoidance, bargaining,depression, and acceptance. And
(32:44):
it's this idea that you wentthrough this, these stages of
denying then bargaining of God,if you can keep him alive, I'll
go to church every Sunday,whatever bargaining depression
and avoidance acceptance, I'vemarked it up. But it's this idea
that you get to a point ofaccepting growth acceptance, so
(33:05):
it's either it's finished, butthere's a that's been really
highly criticised as being alinear view of grief and loss.
And everybody goes throughdifferent stages at different
times. And they're not linear atall. And everybody's experience
is different. But a differentanother model that I really love
is this model that life growsaround grief. There's this idea
that grief is this big for me atthe moment. So imagine a 20 cent
(33:26):
coin on the table, that 20 thatcircle of that 20 cent coin is
my whole life. And all of it isgrief, it's all black, my whole
life is affected by it. But whathappens is the size of that
might never change, that griefmight be the same for forever,
never get to the point of but mylife continues to grow. So the
(33:46):
circle around that gets biggerand bigger and bigger. And as my
life grows, the grief is stillthe same, but my life is so much
bigger.
Andy Fermo (33:52):
You know and so just having said that Stuart and
painted a picture in my head,which is a very it's quite a
quite a famous picture if you'reif you're sort of like a bit of
a history buff up on the wall,right? So and don't don't slay
me for out there in the audienceabout it. So I'm gonna give a
synopsis right? That was my oldjob there is giving a gist of
what the story was without thefull, you know, so there was a
(34:15):
kid who got called up about tojoin the military. And so when
when they did that, when he didthat he had his bike. He was
still young kid at the time. Andhe strapped he tied the bike to
a little small tree at the time.
But then, years, years later,they found this bike. Where was
the tree had grown around andthe bike was 10 metres up in the
(34:37):
air and someone said, Well, howthe hell did that? How did how
the hell did that bike get upthere? Yeah. And how did this
tree mature, the tree had justgrown around, and then took the
whole thing with it. So whatyou're saying is like with this
is this coin, the gross netmight not change and may never
change. But if you use Choosehow you got around, right? Yeah,
(35:00):
it's always gonna be there.
Stu McKenzie (35:03):
You know, what just occurred to me then too.
And in my 20s, I remembercoining a term that I called
yelling at a sapling, which waslike, why can't I do I want to
do more, I want my life to belike this, whatever. And, and I
coined this metaphor of, it'slike standing out yelling at a
sapling, that's just this big tosay, why don't you be a big
(35:23):
tree? Why aren't you going fastenough? And because a lot of
this stuff is we just, it's agrowth and development thing.
Yeah, it's not a fixed thing. Soso the other thing if you're
really hard on yourself,pressing yourself, like I did in
my early 20s, and 30s. Once I'dframe that as yelling at a
sapling, then I had a frame ofsaying, Stop yelling at a
(35:46):
sapling, it's a stupid thing todo you just happen is not gonna
grow faster with the yelling atit, make sure it's got the
right. nutrients, and it'swatered and it grows to you give
it the chance of growing to itsfull potential.
Andy Fermo (35:59):
Well, you know, I mean, the person yelling at the
sapling might be a bit hangry.
They got to feed it something.
And maybe have a Snickers, red,amen. So you know, so these are
all intertwine, though, which,which is a great sort of part
here. So you
Stu McKenzie (36:18):
know, feelings is actually going to be a section,
because that's a big,
Andy Fermo (36:25):
that's a big section. So we're just sort of
over previewing it now. Yeah,I'm talking about like just
wrapping up these these firstsort of three bits, he was
talking about the relationshiphighway, talking about the
voluntary offering andcatastrophe. And then the
catastrophe free bridging thetwo really big underlying points
there is that that voluntary offramp, similar to what you said
(36:48):
before, was doing that, youknow, that pre work. In this
case, in your example, therewas, you know, our old Nana,
Jude was, was terminally ill,but you put all those systems,
you're sort of you saw itcoming, you're doing the grief,
you're doing preparation, you'repreparing the funeral. So when
she slips away, everything's inplace.
Stu McKenzie (37:05):
Exactly.
Psychologically, your head is inthe right place. Your heart is
in the right place. Yeah, youhad the chance to say all of the
things you wanted to say thatyou had the chance to get your
relationship right. So that youwould have no regrets
whatsoever. Yeah. And then Butthen sometimes living years.
Andy Fermo (37:24):
You do it anyway, that's not the voice. These are
the DJs coming out. He couldhave got to fix up the word
there. You know, I think, yes.
It's always you know, there'salways a song that I find when
you're having conversations andthat song comes. That comes into
mind, who big song for a longtime, you know, we had that on?
And it was
Stu McKenzie (37:43):
about him taking the opportunity to speak to his
dad in the living years ratherthan Yes. Yeah. No regret
Andy Fermo (37:50):
of not being able to say what you wanted to say.
Stu McKenzie (37:53):
Yeah. Because?
Because they snatched away.
That's the catastrophe. Yeah,exactly. So that's beautiful.
You've done a beautiful jobthere of really teasing out the
difference between the voluntaryoff ramp, and yeah,
Andy Fermo (38:05):
and then when someone comes in, it's like that
lady night out in Sydney. Andyou know, you're out there
formerly in the cross, and youget bang, you got the late night
punch. One Punch, wonder, andthen you know, you've got the
catastrophe fridge and say,Come, yeah, right. And then that
causes all sorts of chaos. Chaosis a good word. Yeah. And it's
(38:26):
gonna, it's right there. Yeah,it is, you know, a force the
major, you know, that's gonnacome in. So I think we've really
covered off on that one, therewill be, you know, the ebook
that's Jews written has got alot more detail, which is
available to you to be able tounpack a lot of the things and
there are a lot of words here,I'm just looking at thinking
about emotions and behaviours,but that's our swamp of feeling.
(38:48):
So come and join us on this,this next section where we
really cover quite a fair bit ofground because this is a big,
big pot. So we'll see you on thenext module.
Claire Fermo (39:00):
Join us next time for the next episode of the
invisible injuries podcast.
Don't forget to subscribe. Formore great content, follow us on
our socials on Instagram. Andyou could also visit our website
www dot invisibleinjuries.org.au where you can
access more content. Thank youfor listening to invisible
(39:21):
injuries.
Welcome to invisible injuries podcast,
aimed at bettering the wellbeing and mental health of
veterans, first responders, intheir immediate support
experiencing post traumaticstress. By sharing the stories
of the lived experiences of ourpeers, or support staff and the
clinicians, it's our aim to makesure we can have a meaningful
(00:28):
connection with our audience,and give them the ideas for
their own self care plan. If youdo like what you're hearing,
subscribe to the channel andshare it with your friends.
Lastly, these stories may be atrigger for your post traumatic
stress. If your PTSD istriggered, we have links to
(00:49):
support in the description. Orif it's immediate, please call
lifeline on 1311 14. Here's yourhost, Andy fermo.
Andy Fermo (01:01):
In the last part of the chat, we had a student
explain his story, and andbackground and how he came to be
writing this the map ofresilience, and the unleash your
inner strength ebook, we wentthrough an overview of all the
12 components of this map. Andif you haven't done so already,
(01:25):
I invite you to click on thelink to get a copy of the map.
So you can refer to it. It's onour on the description, or a
stream has also been very kindto be able to share a copy of
his ebook, which is verycomprehensive. And what we're
going to be unpacking a fair bitnot all because there's so much
information and key points. Thefirst part of the of the of the
(01:48):
map, though, do is relationshiphighway. Oh, we're on the
highway, you know, so can youcan you speak to a little bit
more of that.
Stu McKenzie (01:58):
I will. I just wanted to preface that with the
with the really great book thatwas released in 2021, by a
professor of psychology atColumbia University by the name
of George banana. And he spent acareer studying resilience
studying grief and loss. And hewrote a book called The End of
(02:21):
trauma. So his like, his idea islike trauma is just being
bandied around everywhere. Now.
Everything's traumatic,everybody's traumatised. And he
was quite critical of that. Andso he wrote a book called The
End of trauma, how the newscience of resilience is
changing how we think aboutPTSD. So that's the title of the
book, because that's a boldtitle, the end of trauma. Now,
(02:44):
the new science of resilience ischanging the way that we think
about PTSD. Yes.
Andy Fermo (02:53):
And I think that that's a big one there that you
just mentioned, is changing theway that we think about it. Yes.
Right. Is it going to end? Or isit the continual but you have to
keep working on it? There's theother facets.
Stu McKenzie (03:03):
Yeah, yeah.
Because how we think aboutsomething, yeah, the stories we
tell ourselves about somethingbecomes the reality of that
something. Yeah. So changing themind. So it's important to
examine the stories that we tellourselves. Yeah,
Andy Fermo (03:17):
look at it from a different light, you know,
Stu McKenzie (03:20):
I always say, as a psychologist, my job is to work
with you around the issue. AndI, what I do is I look at it
from this angle, let's go aroundthe compass. So I look at it
from the south point, then Itake you to the West Point, and
we look at it and I'll take youto the north point. And we look
at it, I take you to the EastPoint, and we look at it maybe a
(03:42):
couple of east west southwestpoints. And by the time you've
looked at it from all of thoseangles, it's completely changed.
So often. So that's just myrole. That's what I do I hold
space. Yes, that's, I thinkthat's
Andy Fermo (03:55):
a three dimensional world. We can go north, we can
check the different factor inthat sphere, right. And so
that's, but that's take, Ithink, just sort of, from what
my understanding of what you'vejust said, then you it's not
just linear and just onedirection, because you know,
you've got to look at it from adifferent angle to unpack it and
go, Well, if I was looking atsomething from this angle, what
(04:17):
am I observations from thisparticular viewpoint
perspective? Is
Stu McKenzie (04:22):
everything Yes.
And it's caught in that lovelylittle saying, when you change
the way you see what you seechanges. And I really love that
when you change the way you seewhat you see changes. But back
to George
Andy Fermo (04:40):
No, no, no, no, that was good to be able to preface
that definitely. Yes, JesseGeorgia and
Stu McKenzie (04:45):
Georgia was that relationship
Andy Fermo (04:48):
and you know, this is this is like taxiing down
that sort of bit to get to thehighway. Yeah, that's the way
Oh, yeah, we're on the on ramp.
That's a good way gatheringspeed momentum. We talked about
the motion part piece earlier.
So
Stu McKenzie (05:00):
Well, George banana did some study around 911
When that happened, and theyflew in psychologists from all
over America expecting there tobe this huge demand for post
traumatic stress counselling andpeople sitting around twiddling
psychologists sit aroundtwiddling their thumbs. The
demand never came the slot ofpeople desperate for support,
(05:20):
never game. And he was reallyinterested in why that was the
case. And he proposes thatpeople are overwhelmingly
resilient to adversity. And whatwe often interpret as PTSD are
signs of natural processes ofgrief. So they're misinterpret.
So this is a misunderstanding ofgrief and grief such a it's a
(05:43):
tricky cat. Yes, because it'sdifferent for everybody, you
know. And it can it is. It's aunknown quantity. But I'm
learning how to do so. So heproposes, after four decades of
research, that we need todevelop a set of strategies for
(06:09):
managing strong feelings.
Because in the end, what he saystrauma is is a dysregulated
nervous system. So it's yourfight or flight response. It's,
it's I want to get out of here.
Or I'm angry, and I get angry atpeople. So it's a fight flight,
sympathetic nervous systemresponse, I'm going to fight you
or I want to get out of hereanxiety. And what he suggests is
if you can if you've got a deepset of strategies that you can
(06:31):
use to regulate your nervoussystem, where's the trauma?
Andy Fermo (06:38):
Does that make sense? Yeah. And as Yeah, no,
you got me in thought here tosee the shofar.
Stu McKenzie (06:43):
And what he says is one strategy will work for
you once in one context, but itmight not work for you again,
the next time in anothercontext. So you've got to be a
scientist about saying, right,that didn't work. I push that
away, I'll go to my nextstrategy. Is that working,
square breathing, no squarebreathe, it's not working for me
now. Right? I need to distractmyself, no distractions, not
working, I need to go tosomething further I need, I need
(07:04):
a deep and wide set ofstrategies to reregulate my
nervous system in the moment.
And if I can reregulate mynervous system in the moment,
where's the trauma, there is notrauma. Because that's what
trauma is a dysregulated hypervigilant nervous system. So
Andy Fermo (07:19):
disappears. The
Stu McKenzie (07:21):
end of trauma.
Andy Fermo (07:24):
Very invariant, hey, that I put yourself out of
works. But so definitely, andobviously, it's had an impact on
can we just sort of mentionedthat what was the name of that
book?
Stu McKenzie (07:38):
George banana. And that's how I spelt it wrong. No,
no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It'sx actually spent. Spelt B O N A
N N. O. George Bowen. Right. Andthe book was called The End of
trauma. And then
Andy Fermo (07:56):
so how was it that, you know, sort of what, what
really paid you with his book?
And your synopsis of it, thenwith the end of trauma? And how
does that sort of relate to whatyou're talking about here? In in
in, you know, even if we weredispersed a component in here?
Was that the relationship? Well,how does it tie in?
Stu McKenzie (08:13):
I think what what it ties in for me is that each
stage each step, each place onthat map that we went through in
the last episode, there's a setof skills that are going to that
we need to develop to navigatethat, yes, successfully.
Andy Fermo (08:31):
Perfect. Yeah. And then so that sort of sets that
preface there, as you weresaying, is putting the things in
place, so that we can manage it,even though you know, we talked
to like the end state, there wasthe end of the trauma, but it's
actually putting, putting thingsthat might work for you in your
particular situation. And it'snot just, you know, it's
situation dependent, but also,this might work for me today,
(08:53):
but it might not work tomorrow,but I've got something else in
the tool or this might
Stu McKenzie (08:56):
mean this moment, but not in that moment. So what
are the skills what other skillscan I draw on? And particularly
that's a swamp of feelings, thekind of analogy but it but it is
about developing the attitudes,the knowledge and the skills to
navigate each stage andrelationship highway? We finally
got there. Yes.
Andy Fermo (09:13):
We've we've come in we've, we've gone through the
merge onto the freeway, and we
Stu McKenzie (09:20):
know Western Australians is hopeless and
hopeless
Andy Fermo (09:23):
and merging. But now we are at speed. We've crossed
over the lanes and we're on.
We're on the relationshipHighway, which I'll just preface
there is a meaningful life isbuilt on the foundation of
quality relationships. Yep, yep.
Well, that's
Stu McKenzie (09:36):
where, what what matters in the end, I think if
Gina Rinehart all the money inthe world, what's her
relationships like with herkids? They're all in court.
They're all fighting each other.
I just think it's a I just thinkit's a values campus problem.
But I'm not genuine heart. Sothere's just you know,
everybody's values aredifferent, and we'd do well to
(09:57):
understand whatever values, andreally the work that we do on
relationship highway, is we dovalues clarification work. So I
can say to you my values,freedom, flexibility,
authenticity and autonomy.
Because I've done the work onclarifying my values, and our
drive my decision making fromthose four values, freedom, I
(10:19):
have to have the choice to moveor move jobs, I need to be able
to move I can't be constrainedin flexibility, I need to be
able to shift my attention andmy focus and cope a little bit
probably with a little bit ofattention deficit. Freedom,
flexibility, authenticity, and,you know, I, I work to be the
(10:41):
same person I am, regardless ofthe setting and to drop masks
and being an authentic person inthe world. And autonomy is part
of the reason why I do well isbecause I don't want to be owned
by an organisation. Yes.
Andy Fermo (10:54):
And you know, it's great that you're working from
those values. And even just sortof mentioning earlier on and
call with your story there. Andhow you've come to talk about
this. And this is, we talkedearlier on about a different
theme, right, which was flippingthe script and, and seeing what
your values are, even though youmight not be able to be in this
pigeonhole of, okay, I'm justgonna work just nine to five and
(11:15):
do this and the flexibility, youwant autonomy, you want to be
able to have the choice to beable to change all these things.
And what was the fifth, thethird, the fourth one,
Stu McKenzie (11:27):
freedom, freedom, flexibility, authenticity, is
the authentic,
Andy Fermo (11:31):
you know, and to be yourself and love, regardless of
what setting. And that sort ofdrives exactly where we are with
this. And, you know, I thinkthat that's a lot of things
there in terms of thatrelationship highway, because
those are things that we seek
Stu McKenzie (11:42):
is where you do the work when you're not, but
when you're not going throughsomething. Yes, this is the
preventative proactive piece.
You do when you've got a bit ofspace in your life, where you're
on a relationship where you'renot getting knocked over. These
are the skills that you canbuild. But people we don't stop
to build those skills, becauserelationship always zoom isn't
lost. Grace going, you know,where? How do we create the
(12:05):
space, the time, and this iswhat I like about what I call
light therapy. When I say light,I mean is in heavy, heavy and
light. And that's some that'ssome therapeutic work you can do
around skills, building andpower, building the skills of
resilience through through alight therapeutic approach
rather than a heavy, deep,psychoanalytic.
Andy Fermo (12:27):
Right.
Stu McKenzie (12:28):
Do you know, heavy therapeutic approach?
Andy Fermo (12:31):
Because not everyone, not everyone is right
into going into that, that deepreally takes a lot out of you,
doesn't it?
Stu McKenzie (12:38):
Well, that's back to the old Freud. And Jung, you
mean psychoanalysis? You know,they've been in psychoanalysis.
10 years? So it's for the richpeople really? Yeah. But, ya
know, we're talking, we'vedeveloped a little company
called single sessionpsychology. And there's there's
a whole range of contemporaryknowledge coming out that you
(12:59):
can achieve an enormous amountin a single session. Yes, even
if you only have one.
Andy Fermo (13:03):
Right. And then that's it. And then so what's
going to it's what's containedwithin that session there. Yeah,
to be able to cover thequestions you're asking. Yeah,
the main, the method and theframework.
Stu McKenzie (13:13):
Yep. And there's a whole growing body of evidence,
which is actually a disruptor.
In the psychology world? Well,because
Andy Fermo (13:20):
then that's the whole thing about where's my
money? Yeah. Well, you try it,you just tried to shut down your
home, then by saying the end oftrauma, right. So nothing is
fixed change there, if you'renot flexible with you what it's
doing. And so when we're talkingabout things like that, that
preventative and proactivepeace, you know, I'm reading
here in the eBook, you know,we've got the relationships with
(13:42):
others relationships with livingthings, nonliving things, and
ourselves, and then relationswith it, or the spiritual
spirituality, I paste, youmentioned that right at the
start of our talk. So can youcan you speak to that a little
bit more?
Stu McKenzie (13:57):
So I suppose the quality of our relationships
determines the quality of ourlives is what we said, you know,
and for me, I mean, that's avalues question, too, because
because some people might findother ways to have a quality
life without qualityrelationships, but I don't know.
But the piece, the piece thatwe're really interested in, you
(14:17):
know, the piece we're interestedin is, is the relationships with
ourselves, our thoughts, ourbehaviours, our bodies, our
expectations, that's the piecethat is the real work to do.
Yes, you know, unless you've gotan unless there's anger
management issues, and you'repushing other people away. It's
always about a relationship withyourself anyway, everything
comes out of a relationship,when you get the relationship
with yourself. Right. Everythingelse gets, right.
Andy Fermo (14:39):
Yes. And, you know, and sort of moving from that
generic and and I almost gotcaught out on that as well. Just
because we're on a, you know,we're talking about veterans,
first responders in theirimmediate support within that
community, and ecosystem andworld is, you know, I think that
what you were just mentioning,Stu, was that relationships with
yourselves once you are nolonger You know, a serving
(15:00):
member of whatever, organisationwhether it's a military or or
first responder, right andredefining yourself in that
relationship. You know, that'sreally big, you know, thoughts,
feelings, body expectations,dreams, or even overcoming some
of those the egocentric typestuff, yes. Those barriers that
you might sit on yourself. Yeah.
Because that's what you define.
(15:22):
Yep. You?
Stu McKenzie (15:25):
I, yes, I agree.
And you're right. It's thosetransition moments that
challenge people, isn't it wherethey've got to re reinvent
themselves moved from a verystructured way of being in the
world, yes, to a veryunstructured way. And so you
lost a little bit of who am Inow? Yes,
Andy Fermo (15:42):
etcetera. And so you mentioned before you you get
locked in, in your book as well,you know, you got this
fundamental truth of life, isthat all relationships change,
can you can you just expand onthat a little bit more I can.
Stu McKenzie (15:57):
As we grow, what's important to us that 12, at six,
eight is different to what'simportant to us at 18 is
different to what's important tous at 24. Now, it's interesting,
when I went to uni,developmental psychology
finished at about 20. So thatwas, that's the study of
developmental psychology. Butwhat we've realised is
(16:20):
development and change neverstops. So it happens in your
20s, mid 20s, it happens in your30s, it happens in your 40s, it
happens in your 50s, it happensin your 60s, happens in your
70s, that happens, right to thepoint where you let go of the
world, and move out of theworld, all of those have their
particular unique developmentalaspects. And when I say that, I
(16:42):
mean, psychology has studiedsome of that development. But
But I think that, you know, thisawareness that we could give as
much attention to the stages inthe 20s of development that we
gave to those childhood stagesof development, obviously,
developmental psychology was itsown field focused on kids, which
is a huge field, but what wasthe field focusing on people in
(17:03):
their 20s? Nothing? So I'msaying that that is really
that's really expanded?
Andy Fermo (17:10):
And where are you seeing it now? You know, sort of
you've talked about like backthen that there was not really
that much.
Stu McKenzie (17:15):
I think there is that growing awareness now that
development never stops, Changenever stops. And with the world
moving faster, and faster andfaster Change never stops. We
are in a VUCA, I think is theacronym, which is volatile,
unpredictable. Karen, what
Andy Fermo (17:34):
the hell? Yeah. Oh, that's okay. We can find out and
then you can Google it, youknow, the Google or chat GPT
might be able
Stu McKenzie (17:44):
to, what I wanted to say is, is the work
particularly that we're focusingon in the relationship highway
stage is very valuesclarification so that you can
come out with a clearer sense ofwhat your values are, and
strength, what are yourstrengths? So there's the VIIa,
which is the Values in Action,which gives you your top 24
strengths? Yeah, we'll work onyour top five character
strengths. So what are they? Arethey teamwork? They vitality?
(18:09):
Are they prudence? Are they anynumber of character strengths
that has a huge science behindit now? So because that
Andy Fermo (18:17):
gives people empowerment is what they've got,
you know, you know, that sort ofthing about being enough? You
are enough? And if you identifythose strengths that we're
talking about now?
Stu McKenzie (18:25):
How do I drive those strengths into what I do
in my life, and the evidence isthat if I drive the strength in,
drive those strengths into whatI'm doing, I'm going to
flourish, I'm going to be, I'mgoing to have high well being,
and I'm going to find meaning inlife, because I'm using my key
strengths. But if you don't knowwhat your key character
strengths are, you can't do it.
So there's something key here tome about values clarification,
what are the values that droveme and I can articulate them?
(18:48):
And what are the strengths? Whatare my top five signature
strengths? They call them? Sothat's signature
Andy Fermo (18:55):
strings, right? Yes, strength? Yeah, like power
moves, right? Boom. This is my,this is my string. And I think
that there's when when people dothat, and following, like, a lot
of, you know, support forums andthat in the work that that I we
do is that when you actuallywhen when you see someone have
that that light bulb moment, andthey don't you can actually see
(19:17):
from almost from some of theposts that were that that
change, you know, like sometimeswe talk about, you know, that
things like social media can bereally toxic when people are
wanting to vent. But then wedon't actually acknowledge as
much when people actually sharetheir wins, which is, which is
the growth piece when you go Oh,yeah. That person or the, you
(19:37):
know, that shifted, somehow andsomething might have in their
sphere has shifted for them nowto be in a different mindset.
You know, they might have someclarity about you know, who they
are, they might have gone on ajourney. It might take some
time, but then when they startposting again, oh, well, you've
had some growth here and like,you know, this is clarifying.
You are yeah, I've come back nowin a better way in a different
(19:59):
mindset. Not so toxic? In what?
Stu McKenzie (20:02):
We do see that?
Don't you do get a littleglimpse into people's lives on
what they post?
Andy Fermo (20:06):
Oh, yeah, big one there, you know, sort of, I
think that's the old EW and recoming down and, and analysing
those little bits and pieces,you know, it's like, what's
different about the tone? Andyeah, these things, what's the
w, that was the trade that I wasin, in the military as an
electronic warfare. So you getyou get you get a whole bunch of
information that was coming infrom many different sources. And
(20:28):
then you'd sort of analyse itand go, here's the here's the
gist. Yeah, here's the gist ofwhat's happening. And an example
would have been, like, when wewere in Afghanistan, we'd used
to listen in on, they calledthem icons, these these radios,
you know, like a walkie talkie.
And then you know, someone wouldbe talking about the tone would
be someone, and then anothertime, and that person's the same
(20:50):
name. But they sound verydifferent. The way they talk is
different, their tone isdifferent, something's happened,
have they have they no longerwith us. And then someone's
taking the same name, but assomeone else, or as what the,
you know, these things aretalking about red flag, yeah,
red flag. So all these littlethings, and that was part of
(21:11):
piecing together, you know, inthis context, again, of what
we're talking about, withrelationships and, and having
clarity around it. We, you know,we've identified strengths, and
we've identified the values andthen getting some clarity around
where we are on the relationshiphighway. Now. So without
unpacking too much of it. Isthat Is that something that
we've sort of covered? Yeah,well, terms of the
Stu McKenzie (21:35):
last piece around values and strength. The last
piece is, is what we call psychoeducation.
Andy Fermo (21:41):
Okay, that's very important. I don't want to miss
out on that, though. So
Stu McKenzie (21:43):
psycho education is, is maybe like our first, the
first episode we did, which iswhere we learn what psychology
has discovered about being humanand in the world, and it's
evidence based and, or differentways of different knowledge.
It's the knowledge piece, it'sso it's, I hear, it's
understanding that, that there'sa process that I'm going to go
(22:06):
through, I'm not going to bestuck in this swamp for forever,
because the thing about emotionsis, when you're in them, it's
like, they possess you. It'slike, it's like, you're gonna be
there for forever. It's like,you can't see you lose hope.
Yeah, I'm stuck here forforever, you know, but but
having a piece ofpsychoeducation, which says,
well, we'll know because there'ssome other places on this map.
(22:28):
And here's the here's actuallythe way through. Yeah, that that
psychoeducation. Yes.
Andy Fermo (22:34):
And that's the big one, and you just spoke to it
earlier on is that the educationpiece, but also training, to
look at it from a differentperspective and change training
the mind to look at it from thatbit.
Stu McKenzie (22:46):
So if you go, if you go to the last piece for
relationship, which will bemental fitness, yes. And so that
mental fitness is understandingthrough psycho education, that
mental fitness is just asimportant as our physical health
as the food we eat. And thatjust like brushing our teeth
every day, we could also getinto some habits of practising
(23:11):
the 10 skills of mental fitness,for example.
Andy Fermo (23:15):
Yeah, I mean, you just coining that now. I look
out for the new ebook comingout. Every good publish in the
US. That's amazing. So you know,mental fitness, strength, the
clarity. They're amazing. Yeah.
Stu McKenzie (23:31):
So there's the work in relationship I
clarifying your values,identifying your top signature
strengths, doing somepsychoeducation around this
resilience and grief and lossand the world and understanding
mental fitness and bringing someof those habits into our ways of
being in the world.
Andy Fermo (23:46):
Yes, yeah. And that all comes down to as well just
to summarise in the two wordsthat you did mention right at
the start of this word, which isthe preventative piece, and the
proactive peace and proactive isthe actual learning. And the
preventative is actually goingthrough this even though you
might not be experiencing itright now. Exactly. You know, in
the now like you spoke aboutpeople don't want to deal with
it until they're dealing withit. Exactly.
Stu McKenzie (24:07):
That's why yes, that's why all of these are
positively focused. And really,I suppose the benefit of that
word, mental fitness coming intoour lexicon coming into, is that
mental health or Well, certainlymental illness has got a stigma.
You don't tell anyone thatyou've got a mental illness.
(24:28):
Mental illness has a stigmamental health as much as they
tried to shift mental illness tothe people use mental health as
if it's a problem. They say theyhave a mental health problem, or
mental health becomes a negativeword. And I suppose the good
thing about evolving to thisidea of mental fitness, is that
a lot of the stigma aroundhealthy mind. practices to give
(24:54):
our mind well, yes, there's nota stigma around mental fitness.
No,
Andy Fermo (24:58):
oh, that's Yeah, and like, you know, sort of it cuz
it's like, you know, sort of youbeing from a military point of
view, you might you know, whenyou're in, you can be fit,
you've got this regime of beingreally physically fit and
strong. And you get out in likeyou let yourself go, you're
trying to find yourself and thenyou go, Well, I'm not working
out I'm not doing these coolthings now and then you start to
get you're not you're not fitanymore. Link
Stu McKenzie (25:20):
the link down there. Yeah, all of those
aspects are linked to a link toeach other,
Andy Fermo (25:26):
like a muscle. Yes, the invisible muscle, right, the
invisible fitness that we'retalking about. And that mental
strength fitness, that can beworked? Yes, yeah, you know,
we're, we're, we're doingworkouts for this. And you
wouldn't
Stu McKenzie (25:38):
send you don't send soldiers into active duty
without enormous amount ofskills, building, preparation,
fitness, you know, mindset, youknow, absolute training. And I
suppose what I'm sort ofsuggesting here with the
relationship highway work, isthat life is going to come and
throw us some real challenges.
And none of us are going toescape that because that is
(26:02):
life. Loss is going to knock atour door, as I said before, but
what are the what's thepreparation work we've done for
when that comes? Yeah. Andthat's back? Well,
Andy Fermo (26:12):
yeah. of hope, the fire drill in the fire. And the
military, and even in the firstresponder. Well, they they do
that? Yeah, that's calledrehearsing, going away. So just
say, if there's deploymentshappening, and you can, you
might have it set in a sort of,if it's a bit more of a, a more
of a peacetime military role,both happens is that you're
going away for training, andyou're working up and you go
(26:35):
somewhere, and I'd speak to sortof the training that we were
doing during that sort ofreally, operationally focused
period, is you go away, you'd goaway to these training, you go
away with the people that we'retalking about to wrap this up,
right. We are there with yourcompany, you got to know,
relationships. Yeah, you'reseeing what the values are,
what's happening here. How do wedo this together? You're
(26:56):
building that you've got clarityaround what I'm talking about?
Yeah, I'm talking from a contextof being within the organisation
still, yes. But then I think ouraudience will also connect with
that, because you go, we'redoing this. This is what we did
when you're in Yes. Now, this iswhat we're talking about, that
you can be doing. When you'reout here. Yeah. And working on
those other bits. Yeah. ofmental fitness. Yes. Especially,
(27:20):
you know, in on the relationshiphighway before. Before we see
that big detour. And you know,when we're coming up to the
bridge, you see what'shappening. happens here in LA
many cities. There we are. Geez,look, I look at my Google Maps.
I've seen a big red sign. I'mdriving along. I see. It's red.
Everyone's banged up. You seeall the brake lights coming on.
(27:41):
And everyone's slowing down.
What's going on here? We'regonna have a sticky beak right
at the freeway on the freeway.
Yes, yes.
Stu McKenzie (27:48):
Someone breaking down on the
Andy Fermo (27:50):
16th. I'm
Stu McKenzie (27:53):
gonna have to slow down at all. The
Andy Fermo (27:55):
RSSI. But so we're talking
Stu McKenzie (27:59):
COVID was a test free bridge for the world. Yes.
Wasn't that we
Andy Fermo (28:03):
are We there was a cause. And so as we're going to
that catastrophe dry, so holdon. Did we miss one section?
Well, he's a voluntary offeringtheir voluntary offering for the
bridge. So that's, is that whatwe're kind of talking about here
now. So we've seen that there'ssomething happening, right?
There's something's bubbling inthe distance, or maybe? Yes,
(28:24):
yes. So we got to volunteerbecause we're talking about, we
have to get out now. Because
Stu McKenzie (28:29):
the difference between catastrophe bridge and
the voluntary off ramp is you'reexactly right where you said we
can see something bubbling onthe voluntary off ramp, so we
can prepare ourselves. We'repreparing ourselves, mentally,
we're going through it overtime, a lot, a person who dies
of a long illness, and weexpecting them to go so across
all that time we've been doing,we've been making things, you
(28:49):
know, we've been processing andso most of the time, they
actually slip away the worksdone. Yeah, because we saw it
bubbling. But the differencebetween voluntary off ramp and
catastrophe bridge is that youdid not see it coming. It comes
in sideswipes. You.
Andy Fermo (29:02):
Whatcha Yeah. And so,
Stu McKenzie (29:05):
so that was perfect. You did a good job of,
Andy Fermo (29:07):
yeah, the left loop operation left right punch, it
comes in, swaps in and knocksyou out. That's almost like a
king hit from the, you know,from the side that you didn't
see. And so what what would yousay is as the that some point?
How does, how does, how do thosetwo things sort of interlink
from when when you can
Stu McKenzie (29:30):
get to I suppose the concept is relationships
will change at some point. Andthat some point is either
catastrophe bridge, or thevoluntary off ramp. Yes, at some
point. Yes, at some point andmost of their relationships
change on the voluntaryoffering. Most of the time. It's
slow, it's gradual. It'sevolution is not quite the word.
(29:54):
It happens over time. It'sgradual, we change we grow, we
develop
Andy Fermo (30:00):
So just say if I'm putting it into context of of
someone that's been, you know,as a military or first
responder, and that voluntaryoff ramps there, say voluntary
off ramp, you can seesomething's bubbling now and you
make some changes in but you doyou separate, right, you know,
because he would have spoken toquite a lot of people in regards
(30:20):
to their transition out of themilitary. So you've got guys,
you've got members that takethis voluntary off ramp, but
they leave on their terms. Butthen you've got some, you know,
and then there's a transitionprocess there. And then, after
you've done that work that youtalked about old grandma, you've
done the work they've passedaway, you've still done all that
work. Yeah. But in, in, in somein many cases, though, you know,
(30:42):
like, we're talking aboutsomething where it's physical
or, like, you know, a mental,were medically discharged,
saying yes, or, or something'shappened, or even. It's come and
sideswiped you before you readto it took away your vision away
the vision board, you expectedyour life journey to be That's
right. expectation andeverything. So now it's been
(31:03):
taken away. And then that's notvoluntary, is that that's kind
of that's that catastrophe foryou.
Stu McKenzie (31:09):
I think it's certainly more of that that
catastrophe bridge theme whereit wasn't. We weren't an agent,
we had no say in it. We didn'tsee it coming. And it kind of it
just, it's come. It's justhappened. Yes. So. And if you
(31:35):
say that, yes. Coming? Yes. Andobviously, it was last saying
you're not on the right. Or, youknow, it was about rebuilding a
set of beliefs really?
Andy Fermo (31:43):
Well. That's right.
I mean, it was like a no, no, Imean, I only mentioned this, the
spirituality piece there, andyou'd like to get that get that.
But that was definitely a signfrom somewhere that said, Hey,
mate, this is a slap to the facetoday, Hey, wake up now. or
something's happening. Yeah,we're gonna give you a big sign,
whatever that might be.
Stu McKenzie (32:00):
Not that I had that meaning for me at 23 or 30,
or even 35 or 40. It's aboutmaking that it's about
consciously creating the spaceand time to reflect and make
that meaning. Because in theend, when, when we are bereft by
(32:21):
Yes, by grief, we all stay stuckin it, or we, we make meaning of
it. There's a lovely littlediagram of grief, which I love
because it honours grief sobeautifully. Kubler Ross has
stages of grief, where youremember them denial, anger,
avoidance, bargaining,depression, and acceptance. And
(32:44):
it's this idea that you wentthrough this, these stages of
denying then bargaining of God,if you can keep him alive, I'll
go to church every Sunday,whatever bargaining depression
and avoidance acceptance, I'vemarked it up. But it's this idea
that you get to a point ofaccepting growth acceptance, so
(33:05):
it's either it's finished, butthere's a that's been really
highly criticised as being alinear view of grief and loss.
And everybody goes throughdifferent stages at different
times. And they're not linear atall. And everybody's experience
is different. But a differentanother model that I really love
is this model that life growsaround grief. There's this idea
that grief is this big for me atthe moment. So imagine a 20 cent
(33:26):
coin on the table, that 20 thatcircle of that 20 cent coin is
my whole life. And all of it isgrief, it's all black, my whole
life is affected by it. But whathappens is the size of that
might never change, that griefmight be the same for forever,
never get to the point of but mylife continues to grow. So the
(33:46):
circle around that gets biggerand bigger and bigger. And as my
life grows, the grief is stillthe same, but my life is so much
bigger.
Andy Fermo (33:52):
You know and so just having said that Stuart and
painted a picture in my head,which is a very it's quite a
quite a famous picture if you'reif you're sort of like a bit of
a history buff up on the wall,right? So and don't don't slay
me for out there in the audienceabout it. So I'm gonna give a
synopsis right? That was my oldjob there is giving a gist of
what the story was without thefull, you know, so there was a
(34:15):
kid who got called up about tojoin the military. And so when
when they did that, when he didthat he had his bike. He was
still young kid at the time. Andhe strapped he tied the bike to
a little small tree at the time.
But then, years, years later,they found this bike. Where was
the tree had grown around andthe bike was 10 metres up in the
(34:37):
air and someone said, Well, howthe hell did that? How did how
the hell did that bike get upthere? Yeah. And how did this
tree mature, the tree had justgrown around, and then took the
whole thing with it. So whatyou're saying is like with this
is this coin, the gross netmight not change and may never
change. But if you use Choosehow you got around, right? Yeah,
(35:00):
it's always gonna be there.
Stu McKenzie (35:03):
You know, what just occurred to me then too.
And in my 20s, I remembercoining a term that I called
yelling at a sapling, which waslike, why can't I do I want to
do more, I want my life to belike this, whatever. And, and I
coined this metaphor of, it'slike standing out yelling at a
sapling, that's just this big tosay, why don't you be a big
(35:23):
tree? Why aren't you going fastenough? And because a lot of
this stuff is we just, it's agrowth and development thing.
Yeah, it's not a fixed thing. Soso the other thing if you're
really hard on yourself,pressing yourself, like I did in
my early 20s, and 30s. Once I'dframe that as yelling at a
sapling, then I had a frame ofsaying, Stop yelling at a
(35:46):
sapling, it's a stupid thing todo you just happen is not gonna
grow faster with the yelling atit, make sure it's got the
right. nutrients, and it'swatered and it grows to you give
it the chance of growing to itsfull potential.
Andy Fermo (35:59):
Well, you know, I mean, the person yelling at the
sapling might be a bit hangry.
They got to feed it something.
And maybe have a Snickers, red,amen. So you know, so these are
all intertwine, though, which,which is a great sort of part
here. So you
Stu McKenzie (36:18):
know, feelings is actually going to be a section,
because that's a big,
Andy Fermo (36:25):
that's a big section. So we're just sort of
over previewing it now. Yeah,I'm talking about like just
wrapping up these these firstsort of three bits, he was
talking about the relationshiphighway, talking about the
voluntary offering andcatastrophe. And then the
catastrophe free bridging thetwo really big underlying points
there is that that voluntary offramp, similar to what you said
(36:48):
before, was doing that, youknow, that pre work. In this
case, in your example, therewas, you know, our old Nana,
Jude was, was terminally ill,but you put all those systems,
you're sort of you saw itcoming, you're doing the grief,
you're doing preparation, you'repreparing the funeral. So when
she slips away, everything's inplace.
Stu McKenzie (37:05):
Exactly.
Psychologically, your head is inthe right place. Your heart is
in the right place. Yeah, youhad the chance to say all of the
things you wanted to say thatyou had the chance to get your
relationship right. So that youwould have no regrets
whatsoever. Yeah. And then Butthen sometimes living years.
Andy Fermo (37:24):
You do it anyway, that's not the voice. These are
the DJs coming out. He couldhave got to fix up the word
there. You know, I think, yes.
It's always you know, there'salways a song that I find when
you're having conversations andthat song comes. That comes into
mind, who big song for a longtime, you know, we had that on?
And it was
Stu McKenzie (37:43):
about him taking the opportunity to speak to his
dad in the living years ratherthan Yes. Yeah. No regret
Andy Fermo (37:50):
of not being able to say what you wanted to say.
Stu McKenzie (37:53):
Yeah. Because?
Because they snatched away.
That's the catastrophe. Yeah,exactly. So that's beautiful.
You've done a beautiful jobthere of really teasing out the
difference between the voluntaryoff ramp, and yeah,
Andy Fermo (38:05):
and then when someone comes in, it's like that
lady night out in Sydney. Andyou know, you're out there
formerly in the cross, and youget bang, you got the late night
punch. One Punch, wonder, andthen you know, you've got the
catastrophe fridge and say,Come, yeah, right. And then that
causes all sorts of chaos. Chaosis a good word. Yeah. And it's
(38:26):
gonna, it's right there. Yeah,it is, you know, a force the
major, you know, that's gonnacome in. So I think we've really
covered off on that one, therewill be, you know, the ebook
that's Jews written has got alot more detail, which is
available to you to be able tounpack a lot of the things and
there are a lot of words here,I'm just looking at thinking
about emotions and behaviours,but that's our swamp of feeling.
(38:48):
So come and join us on this,this next section where we
really cover quite a fair bit ofground because this is a big,
big pot. So we'll see you on thenext module.
Claire Fermo (39:00):
Join us next time for the next episode of the
invisible injuries podcast.
Don't forget to subscribe. Formore great content, follow us on
our socials on Instagram. Andyou could also visit our website
www dot invisibleinjuries.org.au where you can
access more content. Thank youfor listening to invisible
(39:21):
injuries.
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