S05E11 Stuart McKenzie (Road2Resilience) pt5

Episode Transcript
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Claire Fermo (00:04):
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(00:48):
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Andy Fermo (01:02):
G'day everyone, you're with Andy. And rounding
off our series on unleashingyour inner strength and the map
of resilience. Joining me is aregistered psychologist Stu
McKenzie. So thanks for joiningus on this episode again, mate.
And thank you, we were comingaround the corner now. And we've
we've gone through some deepstuff over the last few

(01:23):
episodes. And we've actuallyhonoured those bits, which are
the crux of what we're talkingabout, you know, is going
through, you know that, thatgrief and loss, which no one
wants to really do until itactually happens to them. Yes.
And that catastrophic way. Ialso wanted to you did mention
earlier on in a couple of theother episodes is, you know, we

(01:43):
covered off on some other thingslike you know, the leaving the
swamp of feelings, and, andtouched on things like the anger
and guilt mudflats, theavoidance marshes. And so those
things there with the anger wedid touch on on the last
episode. But there are locationsthat you might not necessarily
always want to be in for aprolonged or normal need to be

(02:06):
the subject matter expert, butin your ebook in the we do have
more information in though, onthose topics, right? Yes. And so
which which you've said that forour audience there they can have
access to the I would

Stu McKenzie (02:24):
say the the power of this unleash your inner
strength is the learning and thepsychoeducation that you get
from the whole picture. And Iwould you know, I'm not going to
promise that if we were dealingwith really intense anger
management issues, because we'restuck in the anger that that
this book is going to addressthat? Because I don't think it

(02:46):
is, I think, I think it's itspurpose is to show that
psychological landscape to showthere is a map, to be able to
identify where we are on themap, and to show that there's a
journey that we can take to comeout also to show the
relationships between resilienceand grief and loss. Yes. And

(03:08):
yeah, that it is a journey. It'sa journey of growth. And if we
can plant the seeds here throughthis podcast, so that you can
begin to blossom and grow.
Instead of shrivelling and dyinginside, then we've achieved this
book has achieved what it wantsto

Andy Fermo (03:30):
offer. That's right.
I mean it it does touch doestouch on some of those other
subjects, but just like a LonelyPlanet book, then you might have
or you know, a big Atlas, yougot the overall, we touch on all
these things. And then if youwanted to drill down on on that
particular subject, there'sother resources that are
available that you can go downand have a bit of a deep dive
there. But so rounding off,we've we've we've slugged it out

(03:54):
out of those bits now. So whereare we moving towards now on our
map?

So it's lighter now we've done really the swamp
of feelings is the is thatcentral piece of the map if you
like, and we went right to thebottom of that swamp in the last
episode. Yeah. And then nowwe're now we're lifting really
our energies beginning to livetime as passing this awareness.

(04:23):
The sparkling of hope is comingback into our life. And that's
really the place on the mapcalled the forest of hope. And
so we'll speak a little bitabout the forest of hope and
then the rocky paths and how therocky paths lead up to the sea
more mountains, which is wherewe we reengage with life in a in

(04:45):
a way where we we say what is itthat I want? What is my vision?
And I think sometimes we falldown at that point, because this
idea of knowing exactly what itis that we want to create, you
know, life by Design happens atthe top of the same more
mountains. That's where we say,what is it that I want what what

(05:05):
is connects to my values and mypersonal strengths. And that's
the work that we did onrelationship highway, the work
that we will do, clarifying yourvalues, understanding what your
five signature key strengthsare, I often say, you know, and
I like this analogy. You've gottwo hands out in front of you.

(05:26):
And on your right hand with yourpalm open and facing up, you
say, are my five, myunderstanding and knowing my
five character strengths arelike a superpower? And knowing
and clarifying my values is likea compass. And with a superpower
and a compass, I can I canachieve and create a life that I

(05:48):
want to live.

Andy Fermo (05:50):
Really? Oh, like that? Yeah, that's a really
that's a good way of putting ittogether, you know? Yeah, you
got the you got the traits andwhat it is holding that in one
hand, and then the compass,

the direction, direction, these are the
drivers, these are the thingsthat light me up these character
strengths are the things thatgive me energy when I spend time
in them. I'm energised, I'mconnected on my best self.
That's a great word. Yes. Yeah.
And, and the compass is aboutunderstanding my values, and
what's important to me. And thenI suppose when we've got those
two pieces, we are in a positionto say, how do I want my life to

(06:23):
look? Where is the destination?
Where do I want to I want tocreate, and that's a very
different space than the work ofthe map space. Yes, we have
jumped right to the end.

Andy Fermo (06:43):
But you know, as always, we're talking about the
journey. So we've got the recapof what's coming up, and then
that sort of the recap of wherewe've been. So now we just need
to fulfil all those little bitson right. And then so coming out
of that Marsh, you know, we'recovered in mud. You know,
there's a forest that we seethis, this forest, what's this,
this forest of hope?

Well, I like to think that the forest of hope
is, is the place where we beginto rebuild our energy where
we're, you know, there's, it's aplace where we can rest, and we
can exactly what I said we canreorient, we can rebuild our

(07:25):
energy ready to reengage withlife, when you still got this
dual processing model of doingthe work, doing what we have to
do. But doing what you have todo and doing the honouring, and
giving time and attention to theloss is important. But that's a
different, you know, being ableto cope in what we're doing, and

(07:48):
be okay, in what life demands ofus be that parenting be that our
job, whatever, on that part. Andthen honouring those feelings is
different to designing andcreating the life that we want
to live that requires acompletely different level of
energy. Yes. And that's a higherlevel of energy. And so I

(08:08):
suppose if we are to hike upthrough those rocky paths to the
same old mountains again, thenthe forest of hope is
essentially important, becausethat's where we begin to rebuild
our energy, life force. And bydoing the work that needed to be
done to get into the forest ofhope, hopefully, we've reclaimed

(08:28):
some of those split off bits,some of those bits that were
taking a lot of energy to keepat bay, you know, that
threatened to possess us, youknow, always think about road
rage. You know, this idea thatwhat what happens with road rage
is people just don't even thinkabout the consequences of what's
going on. And I think what itis, is, is what's happened is

(08:51):
this repent, repressed or splitoff part of them has come in and
knocked away their normalpersonality and possess them.
And they are completelypossessed by this absolutely
erratic, chaotic driving forceof this split off part. So the

(09:11):
speed of part builds energy andand can completely take us over
Yeah, so that we do things thatwere like, Oh, my God, why did I
do that? Yeah. When you lookback on it, or when you reflect
on it, you said that wasn't me?
Yeah. But but it was a split offpart of you that possessed you.
Yes. And took you over? Yes. Sofor so it's essentially
important that we integratethose split off parts and we've

(09:33):
spoken about

Andy Fermo (09:35):
on its on its own, it's not the best that you know,
it's like a It's got its, it cango in many different ways. Yes.
But then when you bring it backin those other components, if
you if you choose to accept tobring it back in or do the work
to bring something back in, itactually helps balance out.

You reclaim the energy that it was taking to
hold it at bay, and the energythat you You need to be able to
create a life of your choosing.
Yes, you can't do that whenyou've got split off parts, that
takes too much too much energyaway from your driving force
using all your energy to keepkeep those parts of you at bay,
which is interesting so far. Soin some respects, the work that

(10:19):
you've done through the placeson the map that we spoke about
is about reclaiming those parts.
And bringing them back in andgoing on this journey of
wholeness. And the forest ofhope really is, is, as we said,
where we just can rest? Yes,

Andy Fermo (10:37):
and what I like about that, you've got the rest
in the recuperate, right? So weyou know, and then you've got
the time as necessary to proceedthrough this forest, like in a
forest like any, like anyforest, in real life, it takes
time for it to grow. Here,

it's shady, it's in the the actual picture on the
map is like, is just sittingdown and having people around us
where we, you know, the wavesof, there's still a risk that we
can, you know, that the waveswill still come and will slide
back in and be swamped a littlebit by our feelings again, but
it's happening less and lessoften. And we are in a place

(11:12):
where we're, we're not activelybuilding and driving and
striving, and I'm gonna do this,and I want to achieve that. And
I'm setting goals and I'mhammering my way to those goals.
We're not doing that. But we'renot suffering as much either.
Well, that's

Andy Fermo (11:30):
right. I mean, you know, and I sort of, I remember
when we were still living onthe, on the Sunshine Coast, and
we're talking about this analogyof growth and nature and this
pope, right, is that after allthose for the 2019 fires, you
know, started in that area,pretty much burned down a lot of
a lot of Australia, and so manythings were burned. But I

(11:51):
remember clearly when we used todrive down from Noosa, down
towards the southern half of theSunshine Coast, is that all that
area was just black. All you cansee for miles was black, black,
black. Think this is a sad stateof affairs and you'd see the
smoulder odd smouldering treethat was there for ages and you
know, think okay, but then astime passed, then you see some

(12:14):
new growth coming. See the greenyou go, that's a little bit
hopeful there. You know, sixmonths pass. You got this one
here. That tree that wassmouldering from the from a tree
that was there for a long time.
Has got shoots coming through itright. Again,

yes. Yeah, it's and a lot that that's the
foresty Yeah, that analogy of ofNYCHA and serenity of something
that's a bit more serene, and alittle bit more, we feel held a
little bit more than than thechaos that we've

Andy Fermo (12:46):
asked. Right. Bonnie doon you know, how's the
serenity? Smell a two stroke.
Lovely, lovely. Oh,

really, that's where we spoke about that life
grows around. Grief. And really,this is this is that stage of
recuperate, really recuperation?
And I think we have to bepatient there as well. Like. And
it takes it takes that time, andit's about connections,
connections with peopleconnections with nature,
connections, connections withourselves, connections with, you

(13:24):
know, life and and activities oflife, I suppose. Yeah, we're
okay. We're okay. We might notbe supercharged and firing
towards our goals, but we'reokay.

Andy Fermo (13:42):
Yep, I'm what I like it. And this will be the sofa
for our audience who get thechance to be able to look at the
images within this, you know, tofollow along. In the forest of
her picture here, I can see thisis what I'm gonna describe it to
you. I've got the trees that arethey got the forest, the trees,
and then there's the Zig zigzaggy path, right. But there's

(14:03):
someone and I'm and I'm lookinghere that the person that's in
that sitting on the path issitting on a path. But they're
talking to someone, they've gotthis connection, walking on and
walking on it. They're justsitting on the path, and this
path is a zigzag. But there'ssomeone sitting just off the
path there, talking to them,giving them space or letting

(14:24):
them hold space, although thisis the way that I'm trying to
interpret it. And then thethey're there in support. Yeah,
right. You're there, you've gotthis forest that's there that
you might not necessarily needbe needing to go say, oh, I need
to set this smarter goal that'sgoing to earn me a million
dollars or do this, this andthis know, what we're talking
about is there's a path there.
Yes. I'm sitting on the pathnow. And I might be inching

(14:46):
through it. Yes. Someone that'swith me along the way. Yeah,
lovely. And there's some,there's some hope around that
life going around the grief.

You know, and this is a simplistic model in the
sense that you It sort of has alead. It's linear in the way
that we go through the differentstages. And but but it's
actually not like that. Allthose stages are happening at
once we, but there's a there's athere's a predominant theme.
Yes, absolutely. And that's thepredominant theme. Yes. That's
the theme there. Yeah. So one ofthe things I'd like to talk

(15:17):
about that's important in thatforest of Hope is the work of
Kirsten Neff. Now Kirsten Neff,Dr. Kirsten Neff, PhD, has done
a huge amount of research aroundself compassion. Yeah, and the
power power of self compassion.
And I think it's in this placeon the map where exploring self

(15:37):
compassion and learning tointegrate self compassion into
our lives is essentially is anessential piece of work to do

Andy Fermo (15:46):
here. So what does what would sell? What does self
compassion mean?

So self compassion is made up of three continuum.
So three lines, if you like,underneath each other, and the
first line is about how we sortof speak to ourselves in our
head. So the first one is, do wespeak to ourselves
compassionately, like our bestfriend? Who really cares for us
would? Or are we harsh andcritical? And do we put

(16:13):
ourselves down? You're stupididiot. Why did you do that for
you're such a weed? You know,and I know, we've all we have
all experienced, how we speak toourselves in our head on that,
that continuum. But she, she,you know, so she says, The first
piece of work and selfcompassion is, is being coming

(16:36):
once again, it's an awarenesspiece, becoming conscious of how
our internal monologue speaks tous. In terms of its tone, its
harshness, its judgement, youknow, it's it's real sense of,
whether it's whether it's,whether we are supporting
ourselves and building ourselvesup with our internal monologue,

(16:57):
or dialogue, or whether we arethrashing ourselves and beating
ourselves. And I've oftenthought to myself, if I don't
beat myself up in my head, I'mreally scared that I'll go to
what's gonna keep me on thestraight and narrow. It's not me
being hard. Yeah, in my head.
Yeah. But actually, compassion,and being compassionate to
yourself is more powerful forkeeping you on a path and

(17:23):
attract and getting you movingforward in life. So that's the
first first side so judgement,are we judgmental and harsh? Or
are we self compassionate andspeak kindly to ourselves and
build build ourselves up? Evenif we say to ourselves in the
third person, like, Stuart, it'sokay, you can, you can get
nervous when you do apresentation and feel like

(17:44):
you're on the verge of a bit ofpanic up there. But nobody
really can see that it was allhappening within you. And don't
be so hard on yourself. Youknow, you're doing a good job.
You're putting yourself outthere, you know, that's me
speaking in my head when I had awobbly moment. Yes. Yeah.
Presenting to Yeah, bloody 100psychologists or whatever, or a
school or is it? It's it'sinternal, though, isn't it? Yes.

(18:06):
Internal. Exactly. And it's, itfeels really strange to start
with. But you once you candisrupt a negative thought cycle
and say, there I go, I'm beingharsh and critical and
judgmental, I'm going to switchthat up. And I'm going to be
loving and supportive, and itfeels really odd to start with,
but it can become a overtime, itcan become a way that we begin

(18:33):
to relate to ourselves. Sothat's the first line. The
second line is is commonhumanity on one side, and, and
isolation on the other side. Soisolation is, why does this
happen to me? Why am I the onlyone in the world who gets
knocked around like this light,whereas, whereas on the other
end of that continuum is commonhumanity. And that's the idea

(18:56):
that everybody goes through it.
This is part of being the humancondition. And it's just my
time, you know, something's it'shappening for me now. But it
happens for everybody. You know,this idea that 70% of people in
in their lifetime willexperience a potentially

(19:17):
traumatic kind of event. And wespoke about that in previous
episodes, but it is a you know,and that's a potentially
traumatic event that doesn'ttalk about cumulative stresses
and that slow, slow grind down.
So and then the third part ofthat is over identification
versus mindfulness. So this islike, why am I such an angry

(19:37):
person all the time? I'm such aDISA. I'm such a that. As
opposed to that mindfulness,which is a step back that says,
well, that's interesting, thatI'm experiencing this at the
moment, but it doesn't have todefine who I am. Yet, so she
challenges us to move fromjudgement, isolation. And over

(19:57):
identification or possessionthat a feeling becomes who we
are to compassion, commonhumanity and the mind more
mindful way of being in theworld. And I just love that. I
love that work. It is seriouslypowerful work.

Andy Fermo (20:18):
I agree, I think it is it is. But when when when you
do get in, it takes a bit oftime to be able to shift that
mind, mindfulness thinking intoit, you know, and I suppose this
is where the 8020 rule comes in.
Right? So it's like youmentioned before, hey, Stu,
talking about yourself in thethird person in the third
person, my wife does all themummy this stuff again, the

(20:39):
third person again, doesn't feelweird. And so it's like, you
kind of detach yourself from thewhat you're doing, right? But
you, you can be really selfcritical. And that keeps you on
the straight and narrow. Butdoing the work that you know,
like 80 to 80% of the timeyou're doing this other work.
Yeah, being self compassion andthis and that. There might be

(21:00):
times where you want to keepyourself in check. And then go
this and that's okay. Yes.
Right. And that's that part ofthe awareness piece is go I know
that I'm doing this. It's notit's like you were saying with
the, you know, coping ugly. Yes.
Only for a small amount of time.
Yeah. If you did it for a smallamount of time. That's okay. I'm
acknowledges.

Or we might continue to cope ugly, but it
becomes a smaller part of ourlife. Yes. You know, and maybe
we'll never stop drinking, orwe'll never. We'll never stop,
you know, doing the activitythat was helping us code. Yes.
But now laugh also continues onaround that and we're growing
and expanding. And I thinkthat's probably more of a

(21:39):
realistic. Yes, that's

Andy Fermo (21:40):
right. You got to let the rat run every single
now. Before you put them back inthe wheel, letting the rat run.
Boom, go for your run. Get itout of your system now. Okay.
Yes, come back. Yeah, that's

exactly right.
Yeah, it 20 year rule, too,because you never all of
anything, you never 100% aboutthe idea that if you can get up
around that, that that mark ofof it becoming more of a more of
a part of our lives, more of away of being? We might never be
there all the time. But that's ano, no,

Andy Fermo (22:14):
because then you're not striving to be
perfectionists. Yeah. 100% allthe time. It's not achievable on
a sustained period all the time.
Yes. Yeah. Well, he'll he'll behuman that you've mentioned the
human condition many times overthe last few episodes. And it's
like, you know, when there'smistakes, we make these
decisions you go or you visitsome areas that you might not
want to, but it's only for thatshort amount of time. Yes. Yeah.

(22:35):
But I made the least the better,like in the micro and so forest
of hope, is a good place to beable to start to, to nourish to
grow, to go on. So now we'regoing for this we've, you know,
we covered off on the I think so

I think the you know this again, back to that
analogy that we did in anearlier episode, where we spoke
about grief being our entirelife like a 20% 20 cent coin.
Yeah, but then the grief maynever diminish, but our life
continues to grow around thatgrief, I think that fits really
well in the forest of hope thatwe continue, you know, we join,

(23:15):
we're part of a Men's Shed,we're part of a stand up
paddleboard club, we will beginto bring activities we'd start
to do was spend money on classiccars, we, we bring exercise back
into our life, we we we thinkabout eating well, we think
about, you know, we spoke aboutthose elements of mental

(23:38):
fitness, we, we begin tointegrate them into our lives in
a more conscious way. Yeah,yeah. So amazing.

Andy Fermo (23:46):
And, you know, just just sort of came to me like
with this, and then this iswhere, like, a lot of the
hunting community, you know,there's a lot of veterans in the
hunting community. And, youknow, there's that one that the
aspect of, you know, groundinganimals, right. That's, like,
always been a primal thing. Butwhen we're talking about the way

(24:06):
that they're going about,they're going into nature, but
they're navigating different,different areas, different parts
going down, these things aregoing through all these things.
And a lot of the guys don't everspeak too much about they don't
have to go and vocalise it,because they're they're doing
it. They're actually, I amwalking this ground here now.
And that's a therapy for me tobe able to go in. Yes. Because

(24:27):
if you actually go well, I'mdoing map to ground. That's part
of it. Yes. Right. And so someof these guys, I'm not saying
just guy, but I will say Guysand girls, right, but it's like
the conversation that I don'tfeel that I need to go to this
length here because my therapyis going here and inadvertently,

(24:48):
as sort of like sort of thepenny just dropped there. I'm
like, you know, with this map,you're navigating a lot of these
things, right?

Yes. Yeah. When you said map to ground what that
sounds like a map

Andy Fermo (24:59):
to ground Yeah. So if you have a look on your map,
and you can see this on yourGoogle Maps on the car,
sometimes when you have the mapcome up, it's like it's upside
down. Fuck, you know, unlessyour brain is is barking, I can
do

the old story. If you're old enough, no, but the
typical story of the person inyou, the man leaning over

Andy Fermo (25:25):
a bad navigate is bad. But it is so mad to ground
means orientating the map, likeyou would say, in the shopping
centre. Before I'm like, I'mgonna turn this around the right
way now, so now I know that theNABS of course the mall, I know
that the, you know, this placein this place is here. I can go,

(25:46):
I'm gonna get a map. I'm gonnaturn it around. That's, that's
where we need to go. Yes.
Because if the maps not orientedcorrectly, you might have all
the elements and you'll bewalking around in circles or the
wrong way. Yes, yes. Yes. Right.
So the Matlock round, you know,and I love navigating when that
was one of my favourite thingsthere is, you know, to get to
the navigation was was one big,big thing to be able to know

(26:11):
where you are. Or if you if youfound yourself, well, you
weren't quite sure istriangulating or finding a way
based on other things. Yeah. Solike that, if we, if we're
talking about that, before we gointo the other, you know, map to
ground can say if I was on themap, and I'm looking at the map
of resilience here. And I didn'treally like spending some time
in the hangar in anger andguilt, mud flats, and I've just

(26:32):
left the swamp. And I kind ofwas just through there. So I can
go, Well, this is my map here atthe moment. And go this is this
is where we are now I canactually take that time now. Oh,
that's where the forest is moremight walk towards that way.

rogaining. Right, guys. Yeah, yeah. People
actually,

Andy Fermo (26:52):
yes. racing on the map. And the clay said, That's a
great little sport, too. Yeah.
Yeah. Super fun. Like, you know,when you're going on the campus,
they're off time. So a lot ofthat map to ground really helps
you be able to get thosebearings and makes perfect
sense. Yeah, that's, that's howI teach my kids how I taught my
kids to go to get to school. Soit's not no, this is this road

(27:13):
here. This is dog alley. This isdog alley, where can we see now
okay, that city way? Well, Icould see the B, I can see the
biggest hotel that stands outlike dogs balls. And then we're
going to go through this wayhere or smells like this, or
we're going to meet the peoplewith the dogs come in. Yeah,
like that. So they're knowingthese these sensory things
without, you know, withoutknowing, but they know on them

(27:35):
that they're orientatingthemselves to where they need to
be. Yeah. You know, that's likean example for that. But also,
you know, when we're talkingabout map to ground and the map
of resilience, that's, yeah,

this is the path.
This is the map of the journeytowards resilience and
navigating the inevitability.
And I said it in our firstepisode, I think that that fire
drill of hope, you know, one,why don't you know, why aren't
we teaching people about thesethings? When when we know, it's

(28:10):
inevitable that loss will comeand knock at our door? We know
it's a part of the humancondition, why? It's probably
more likely in people's lives ina fire, but we spend time with
the fire sirens and masteringpeople and this is the muster
point. And that do we spend timetalking to people about that
psychological map and how tonavigate and where to muster

(28:31):
your energy? And that's back tothe forest of hope? That's,
that's a muster point. So, yeah,I

Andy Fermo (28:37):
mean, I try and wrap that up. And in the different
ways, I think, you know, istrying to do it so that you're
learning but you're not havingto, actually, in it more than
that could be a different topicto be able to go How can I get
this information over using overthings with, with what people
know? Yes. And I suppose I thinkwe've spoken to that quite a lot
in the last few episodes,because, you know, there's the

(28:57):
map and there's certain termsand categories that we're
talking about it, but with theexamples, it's like, okay, how
can I contextualise that now?
Yes. And then so whoever islistening to the podcast, at the
moment, will are cancontextualise this, or, or
connect with it. In my ownsituation. And this is if they
were talking about that this iswhat is in mind and then there's

(29:18):
a whole purpose. What is goingon? This is the, you know, you
you reflect what what we'retalking about now, and connect
that with your own experienceactually, and it doesn't
diminish whether, you know,those are the scripts were some,
you know, my old wall was worsethan yours or, or this is worse.
You experienced a traumatic orgrief or loss. And it's painful.
And these are the things thatwere gone about it in whatever

(29:41):
your situation is. Yep. And thatthat conscious

decision to pursue post traumatic growth. Yeah,
because of your post traumaticstress because of that.
Traumatic Stress. Yeah, butknowing that go Right, these are
a distinct possibilityprobability when you know the
map and how to get there.

Andy Fermo (30:07):
That's right. Yeah.
And that's it. But sometimes,you know, we might go through
the forest to hope we coming outon the other side. But
announced, I might see a bit ofa rocky path.

What does that mean? Yeah, so the rocky paths
if you like, when we haverebuilt our energy enough that
we stand, we're standing up, andwe're starting to reengage with
life again. And then it's like,well, I don't know if I want to
go back and do what I was doingbefore I feel different. Now.

(30:36):
I've, um, you know, this is themeaning. What is it that I want?
You know, life is short, maybe?
I don't know. Yes, life can takeon more of a sense of, I've got
to take the opportunities when Ican, I've got to, who is it that
I want to be? What are myvalues? And what are my
character strengths? And andwhen I look at the compass of my

(31:02):
values, and the the superpowerof my character strengths, where
is it that that come? Whatdirection? Is that compass
pointing in? Now that I knowthat? Where's that sort of Prop
prompting me to go so that I canlive a life that is more
meaningful? More? Morepurposeful, more connected? More

Andy Fermo (31:23):
rich? Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And you talked about
a rich, I'm enriches the

relationships that I have, you know, it doesn't
matter when you're on that bedin the hospital, saying goodbye
to the world. Everything thatyou have doesn't matter at all.
What matters is how you how youloved and how deeply you were
loved, how

Andy Fermo (31:43):
fulfilling that it means to have that, that I have
that sense of the things right?
Yeah. And, you know, youmentioned before, it's like, do
I want to so

I just want to say here, that love is about love
for ourselves. As much asanything else. Yeah, how much
did I love and how deeply did Ilove? Yes, that's as much for us
as it is for the relationshipsaround us. And I just wanted to
keep that in because noteverybody has loads of relation,

(32:15):
you know, loads of connectedrelationships,

Andy Fermo (32:17):
you don't need to have hit 50 million, like, you
know, you know, like, big a biginfluencer on the social media
is whatever is actually therefor you in your sphere. That is
meaning for you is your youknow, you only define what your
metrics are for success. You

I love that analogy. I've been climbing this
ladder, you know, it's been sohard, it's taken me years, I've
set goals, I strive I put somuch effort in. And I finally
get to the top of the buildingand realise that the ladders
against the wrong building.

Andy Fermo (32:50):
In fact, that was the Joneses ladder, oh, it's
going up the Joneses ladder, Iwasn't going up my ladder, you
know, and that's, that's a bigone, and does take a long time
to be able to even you know,like along that life journey, I
want to like Sue, what youmentioned before, is talking
about these things where you'vegot that rocky path, and you go,
does that actually my old lifenow? And what that looked like,

(33:13):
does that actually feel where Iam now where I'm ready for my
values to move forward toactually need to go back to that
I've got a choice. You know, amI strong enough now to be able
to go back to that, if it's nolonger serving me a purpose,
what that look like, but whatyou know, that's the inner
strength, right? Unleashing thegrown, I've grown. In those, you

(33:36):
know, using all those metaphorsthat we've used throughout the
series, you know, and you know,and particularly to the to, you
know, the ebook is theUnleashing the inner strength,
we've got this inner strength.
Now, I'm ready to get this rockypath, but the path might be a
little bit rocky, because we'reon we're unsure, well, we

might have to have a couple of, you know, we might
follow a path that's alreadythere, we might go back to
University of restudy, suddenly,we might go and we might change
our job, we might pick up somenew activities and, and meet
some different people, we, youknow, we might develop a hobby,

(34:13):
a new skill, or we might beatthrough the bush and develop our
own rocky path through there.
But the point is, it's it'spointing to a reengagement in
life that is now aligned withour values and our strengths.
That's what it's talking aboutcampus. Dan?

Andy Fermo (34:33):
In the what was at the end, yes, and we've got the
right and the left hand andcompass and then your your
values what you've, you know,that's where we're going. It's
more aligned with that.

You will also just the other day on Facebook post
came up about all the, you know,Robin Williams and a number of
celebrities who have taken theirlives where ostensibly from the
outside you'd say, oh my god,they had it all. They had The
world and the money in therecognition and the fame and the

(35:03):
fortune. And yet somehow, therewas an emptiness in there. And I
suppose the rocky piles areabout that there is about
pursuing something that ismeaningful, and that we're
connected to, and that thatdeepens our lives broadens our
lives, and aligns with who weare. So it's a journey of

(35:26):
rebuilding ourselves into, youknow, with this understanding
that I can be a differentperson. And when you think about
service people, you know,sometimes you land on the you
don't, you don't even need atrauma, you come out of service,
your complete way of being inthe world, which was very

(35:47):
disciplined and structured andregimented, daily, PT, sessions,
all everything there. And nowI'm in the CV world. Well, I'm
right on the rocky path, Zanna.
You know, you don't you know, inthat respect. Yeah, that's the
loss, the loss of who I wasbefore the loss of the structure
I had before the loss of thesupports I had before the loss
of who I was, perhaps thestatus. And this is back to the

(36:12):
retirement thing when peopleretire, and who am I now what
fills this space in my lifebetween who I was in a working
life and who I am now, you know,in a retirement life, that's a
rocky path that is an absoluterocky path journey. Retirement
is an excellent example of that,particularly if you hit

(36:35):
retirement, where you've beenworking five days a week, and
then you retire yet,

Andy Fermo (36:39):
and there's a lot of that as well, like, you know, as
someone might not need tonecessarily, you know, and I
want to acknowledge this for amoment, is that you know, what
we're talking about here, withthe map, it doesn't necessarily
always have to revolve aroundgrief, or that through that
thread, or the conversationaround every every soldier or
first responder is, when theyleave this organisation, they're

(37:02):
going to be broken. No, youknow, and that's not the case.
But what we're talking about isthat these these feelings, or
what happens, and let's talkabout he said of retirements,
one, you might have someone thatmight be 30 to 25, year, 30
years, and you know, that in acareer, that's

a Florida bank and ended up becoming the National
Bank Manager. That's

Andy Fermo (37:25):
right, you know, started from from the bottom and
30 years or a long time, andthat doesn't quite happen as
much jobs. But if someone's beenin that, for a while, that loss
and sense of purpose, or thatrocky path of where am I going
to go next? is a very real and abig one, isn't it?

Absolutely it it's really it's a re it's a
realigning who you are with whatyou do, and how you are in the
world, that better aligns withyour values and your strengths.

Andy Fermo (37:54):
But the journey is never ever like it's about, you
know, there's always that sayingabout the journey, right? It's
about the journey and get notthe destination. But look, let's
just say now we've taken thatjourney up the rocky path, but
we're using the tools that we'vehad, you know, our compass and
our morals and values will bealigned with giving ourselves
8020 rule to be able to, youknow, be aware that we can also

(38:19):
dip into spots that we might notwant to but it helps us re
energise and invigorate and getto the top. What's that called?

It's the same amount.

Andy Fermo (38:30):
And what am I seeing more of?

Well, it's, it's that idea that in some respects,
if you're going to use a hockeyanalogy, you've come off one
peak, where you've been able tosee the other peaks, and get a
real Vista sense of of yourwhole life and all the
possibilities that are in frontof you, and where should we go
now. And then you you start togo on that and and you come you

(38:55):
come down through a valley andthen and then you come back up
to another peak if you like. Sothat's a metaphor for kind of a
journey of a little bit ofgrace, a significant transition
in your life traumatic event.
And he you know, even already

Andy Fermo (39:08):
as well, like I'm looking here now, and I've gone
taking this journey. Yes, I'vegot that this clarity of where I
want need to be.

Yeah, so I suppose the defining feature of the CMO
mountains is the clarity youjust spoke about, but the vista
of life and possibility that isin front of you again. And this
comes absolutely back to yourcompass again. Where do I you
know, I've built some skills,etc, through the rocky paths.

Andy Fermo (39:36):
what else what else

when I look at my life, I look at the different
aspects of my life. What is itthat I when I'm in that space
where I have the I have theenergy I can see my future
again, I want to set some goals.
I want to achieve some things.
That that is the definingfeature if you like I'm standing

(39:59):
on On the top of those of thatsame, the same or mountains?
Yeah. Yeah, I think Tony Robbinstalks about getting a crystal
clear vision of what it is thatyou want to create. And then he
says the second piece is sittingin certainty, or trying to this

(40:24):
is this manifesting piece,trying to feel like it's already
happened trying to feel likethis is I am so certain that I'm
going to achieve this, I'm socertain it's going to happen. So
that's a that's a piece ofkeeping your energy high. So
first of all, knowing what it isI want to create keeping our
energy high. And then then thethird step is what's called

(40:45):
relentless pursuit. So that is,I will just keep pursuing what
it is that I'm afterrelentlessly through trial and
error. Until that I make ithappen. Yeah. And I think the
only place you can do that pieceof work from is the top of the
same more mountains. Yeah.

Andy Fermo (41:03):
And then someone gets given the gives the dog a
bone, you know, you're going topursue it that relentless
pursuit. Yeah. Because I thinkthough, when you're when you're
at the peak of a mountain, thenit gives you that that clarity
and using your, you know, you'vegot the big view, big, wide open
views, and you know, where youwant to go. But you need to get
back down off the mountain to beable to go down through the

(41:25):
ravine, might be going throughall that again. And you know,
well,

and maybe that's happening at the same time. As
you know, this is where thisisn't a linear journey. We've
simplified it. It's beensimplified for the sake of
understanding that journey. Butit's, it's more it's more
layered. And it's more nuancedthan yes, then that Yeah. But
certainly, you know, visiting Hplace reclaiming your energy

(41:51):
that's been stuck in thoseplaces. Is, is work well worth
doing. Because you are freeingup energy, you are releasing
energy from those split offparts of yourself and bringing
it back into your ability towhat Jung called it. Freud
called it your libido. Now,Freud's use of the word libido,

(42:19):
was sexual energy, and that'soften how we use that word
libido. But Jung who was thejust predecessor of Freud, he
used coined the term libido aslife force. Okay. Yeah. And I
really that's a that's abecause, you know, Freud was
caught in that post Victorianera where everything was about

(42:40):
sexual repression, and which itprobably was, where they were,
men would get excited looking atthe leg of a piano, or whatever.
But that idea of libido waslifeforce. And that's the I
really like that. Yeah, you knowthat we are building our libido,

(43:01):
our life force, our ability tobe in the world. And we're only
going to build that by doing thework of resolving some of the
unresolved and faced issues thatwe've tucked away. So there you
are at the top of that mountain,with with because if you're at
the top of that mountain, butyou still, you know, in your
life, go to a motivationalspeaker and you're like, Yes,
I'm going to achieve this andthis, and you haven't done the

(43:24):
work of the things that you'vetucked away. You're not going to
get very far. You know, you'remuch more likely once you've
done the work released, libidoreleased. lifeforce reclaimed
it, that you're going to be ableto create a life that, you know,
that is worth living. So I don'tthink you know, is that, you

(43:44):
know, that's this work of avision board. What was the
vision board is kind of likethat peace workers, if I could,
if there was no barriers, andyou know, what would what would
I have on my vision board? Yeah,like, yeah, which is a bit naff,
but um, but still, that idea of,I suppose a vision board is a is
a process of trying to figureout what is actually worth

(44:07):
striving for? What is it that Iwant, what I want to create,
what do I want to manifest in mylife? Yes.

Andy Fermo (44:12):
And I mean, you might be able to do that in many
different ways. You know, it'slike, you know, you don't need
to cut out bits and pieces.
Yeah, but you want to at leasthave some clarity or written it
down or vocalise what it is thatyou're going to do. Yes. Right.
And an example would that bejust taking it to our own
situation is when we'd startedwhen we created invisible
injuries, and we said, we'regonna do this tour, like, Okay,
I'm gonna do it. Now. I'm gonnasay that I'm doing this, this

(44:34):
will do it, how might How bestcan I actually do this? I'm
going to contact the paper and,you know, I was doing some other
things and I contacted the localpaper, and they did a piece on
it because you know, there wasstarting to be these other calls
for the for the Royal Commissionand all these bits and pieces.
And I said, we're going to bedoing a PTSD national awareness
campaign this before COVIDRight. And then so they wrote

(44:59):
this piece of what we were doingthis is this was a division
locked to in May, I'm not goingto tell a readership of 300,000
people on the Sunshine Coastthat I'm gonna do this and I'm
not because sure as hell, therewas the old data. There's the
old people that love to sitthere and read their breakfast
with a cup of coffee. Oh, hey,you're that bloke was here?
Yeah. Almost a veteran, I was aVietnam good on what you're

(45:22):
doing. When are you planning onsetting sail? Fly. But I need to
get there first, or I need to,you know, do all these other
bits. But I'll put it out there.
So the point was, is going tolook, that was the vision and
you had a crystal clear vision,the vision was very clear. But
if I didn't say anything, Ididn't know like, it could be
that vision. Yeah. But if youdon't make your steps, the

(45:44):
accountability pieces, I'mputting it out there. Now I'm
not I don't want to call myselfa liar. I'm not a liar. Fuck and
have to find a way to do this.
Yeah. And then we did do it. Andthen all these other things
perfect. Perfect.

You know, and for you. It wasn't like, you know,
you would had your own strugglewith some post traumatic. Yes,
the staff. There wasn't like youwere completely healed as a
person and complete everythingwas tacked to ISIS. Is it 20?
Isn't it? But that that was partof a process of my healing? Yes.

(46:20):
So this is this idea of layeredand yeah, you know, it's
layered. It's not, it's notlinear. So Oh, yeah.

Andy Fermo (46:25):
Well, absolutely, you know, and there's those bits
there, the rocky path that wasthe rocky path, and my heart is
like, you know, what I didn'tlike about that old thing. This
is where we're striving towards,yes. But then there was elements
as well. You know, sort of,they'd be places like in Kakadu,
you'd climb to the, we love thebushwalking. And specifically

(46:46):
for that you walk up the bloodyparty to be sweating their
major, and then you get to thetopping. Ah, yes, it's a bloody
good news. But now, gotta goback, you know what I mean? So
this time around, I made aforking. And now with all that,
so now we've come to the Seymourmountains, we've discovered
this, we're going to round off.
Now, we've talked about all ofthe things in the map, except

(47:08):
for this last mystery. So I'lllet you introduce that. Which is
the

well it's, there's not a lot to say about this,
it's this is really about thereengagement with alternative
with with the relationship withlife. And if you go back to, it
puts you back onto relationshiphighway. So in some respects,
you've brought you right backaround on relationship highway,
but this time on relationshippathways, you're a different

(47:35):
person, and the choices that youmake about the type of
relationships that you have therelationships with your work,
the relationships with yourhobby, hobbies, the
relationships with friends, etc,that's different. And sometimes
we let go of toxic friends thathaven't been helping us as, as
we're at this point, I'm not, Ineed to leave, I need to call

(47:56):
some things from my life.
They're not building me up.
They're pulling me down. Andit's just not helpful. So this
idea that when we reenterrelationship highway, we reenter
that relationship, thoserelationships, I, particularly
the relationship with ourselvesas a very different person. And

(48:18):
probably our relationship withother people takes on a
different quality and a richerquality. And our relationship
with the things we do is betteraligned with our values and
better aligned with ourstrengths. And so that's the
point and you know, thoserelationships inevitably will go
through a process against andthat's the whole point. Yeah,

(48:39):
that life continues on, wechange developmentally, there's
no stop to that. When you're 80,you've got some developmental
tasks, when you're 6070 You'vegot developmental tasks, they
never stop. So in that respect,I think that ones that I think
that ones that are absolutely

Andy Fermo (48:55):
so So just in summary, I suppose you did one
that up a little bit more withwith unleashing the inner
strength this dude like, just tolike in that last bit of
closing, what would you like tobe able to sort of some parting
words for our audience today? Isanything that sort of comes to
mind or?

Well, for me, just understanding that psychological
landscape is the awarenesspiece. And I said to you before,
awareness is 80% of change, or90, you know, so that's a huge
piece. There's a big pieceknowing where you are being able
to locate yourself on the map,help seeking when you're in the
swamp of feelings, honouringeach aspect, being patient with

(49:37):
yourself in the anger mudflatsand the good but understanding
that you're there and you'revisiting. You're not you don't
want to stay there. But beingokay being self compassionate,
learning, that learning thoseaspects of being compassionate
to yourself. Being more mindfulnot being over identified or
possessed by strong emotions.
The idea that you're notisolated in this, this is the

(50:00):
journey of, of common humanity.
And I suppose I'd like to finish

Andy Fermo (50:07):
with a poem. I love the poem. Poems is

this person who wrote these poems a little bit?
A little bit more than made themI thought I took a picture of
it, but I didn't. This poem isby a man named Robert Frost,
Robert Frost. And I haven't gotthe damn poem in front of me.

(50:35):
Read it, yes. But you'll noticeit's called The Road Less taken.
Yes. And basically, thefinishing lines in that poem is
to, you know, I stood at ajuncture where two roads went in
different directions in thewoods, and I looked down one
road, and it was a little bitovergrown, and I looked down the

(50:55):
other and it seemed to be easierand more worn and the leaves
were black, because people hadtrodden on them. And I could, I
had this choice to travel onthese two roads. And the poem
finishes by saying, Two roadsdiverged in a wood. And I, I
took the one less travelled by,and that has made all the

(51:18):
difference. And I think that's,you know, because they took the
road that was more difficult,but it's made all the
difference. So for me, buildingresilience, we need adversity to
build resilience. It's like weneed weights, and we need to
push against weights to buildmuscles. Adversity is what

(51:38):
builds character. Adversity iswhat builds psychological
strength. It builds resilience.
And when we reframe adversity,and understand that there that
we can navigate our way throughthat adversity and understand
that that is a process and ajourney that we're in such a
better place to navigate. BeingHuman in this world. That's

Andy Fermo (52:00):
right and unleashing your inner strength. Thank you
so much. So before we before wego, and that's just been
amazing. It's blown my mind overthe last few episodes that we've
done. And then you know, theamount that we've covered, some
deep, some light hearted, andhopefully our audience connects
within their own story and, orif their immediate support in

(52:25):
what they're going through, andthey can take some nuggets of
gold from this. But Stu, how canhow can people find out a little
bit more about what you do orthe work that you're doing with
with the book? Well.

I've got a web, the website is braveheart.ww dot
brave, which we can put in thelink now. Yes, that brave dash
heart.com.au. We can work withveterans, which is fully at no
cost to the veterans, we can,psychologists can connect with
them once a week for 20 minutes.
And we can journey with you orso we can be a co journey with

(53:03):
you and we can journey throughthem. Or we can just be your
well being person and touch baseand see how things are going.
Yeah. Or you can do a solo hikeby reading the book and doing
doing the online course. So youcan enrol in that online course
through braveheart.com.au. Andthat's probably the best way and

(53:23):
we'll put some other links in inthe training but knowing that
we've got you know that you'vegot access to this support that
can just touch base with youknow, we have 20 minute phone
calls with with our veterans andand what we can achieve in that
20 minutes once a week isphenomenal over time. Over time.
Absolutely phenomenal. And

Andy Fermo (53:47):
that's the thing, though. So like and this is
something for me and I know thatI've utilised a telehealth
service. For my own mentalhealth I find it's like a tuner,
you're into cars and you know,you don't need to go to the to
the workshop when everything'sright broken down, isn't it that
you take it to the workshop oryou do the work yourself?

(54:10):
Preventative

maintenance that and just just tweaking and
keeping yourself on tuned? Andyeah, and it's like therapy. You
know, we spoke about that beforeas in? Not really, it's forward
focused. Yes, it's aboutpsychoeducation. It's about
clarifying your values. It'sabout clarifying your strengths.
It's about understanding this,this journey. It's not backward

(54:32):
focused. That's right. It's notit's not looking back and going
deeply into your childhood oryou know, your parenting or your
etc.

Andy Fermo (54:41):
So that's right.
Well, thank you so much forjoining us for this series today
is very much appreciated. Andand we'll put the links on for
our audience to pursue at alater date.

Excellent. That's been an absolute privilege, an
absolute privilege. So thank youfor this opportunity, Andy.
Really appreciate and love whatyou're doing in this Nice. Thank
you. Brilliant.

Claire Fermo (55:04):
Join us next time for the next episode of the
invisible injuries podcast.
Don't forget to subscribe. Formore great content follow us on
our socials on Instagram. Andyou can also visit our website
www dot invisibleinjuries.org.au where you can
access more content. Thank youfor listening to invisible

(55:25):
injuries.

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