S05E19 - Robert Kilsby (ex SAS & Mountain Road Racing) pt1

In this first part of the Invisible Injuries podcast featuring Robert Kilsby, Andy Fermo dives into the incredible journey of a 21-year Special Forces veteran. Robert opens up about his rural upbringing, his early influences from Scouts, and the Army Reserve, which eventually inspired his path into the military. He reflects on his training, beginning at 17, and his eventual selection for the SAS. Throughout the episode, Robert shares gripping stories of his time in Vietnam, including experiences with scouting, patrolling, and collaborations with U.S. Navy SEALs. His recollections shed light on the camaraderie, challenges, and personal growth he experienced during his service, especially as one of the youngest members in his unit. Despite the traumatic environments, Robert’s attitude of persistence and pursuit of excellence helped him thrive. He emphasises the mindset required to not only survive but excel in high-pressure military operations. As the episode progresses, Andy and Robert explore deeper topics around trauma, the nature of PTSD, and the ways in which soldiers cope both during and after service. The episode sets the stage for a powerful exploration of Robert’s transition from military life to new challenges and self-care in the second part.

Key Takeaways

• Early Preparation - Robert’s rural upbringing and time in Scouts prepared him for military life.
• Pursuit of Excellence | Robert was always driven to be at the "top of the tree," seeking out challenges.
• Scouting as a Skill | Scouting in military operations required not just physical but mental skills, honed through experience.
• Coping Mechanisms | Robert found ways to cope with the pressures of military life, even before fully understanding PTSD.
• Blind Determination | Even without formal military experience, Robert thrived due to his sheer determination during selection.
• Team Trust | The trust between patrol members, especially in dangerous environments, was key to survival and success.
• Adaptation | Learning from others and constantly improving was a theme in Robert’s military career.
• Resilience | Robert’s resilience allowed him to push through the toughest challenges, including mentally.
• Trauma & Ignorance | Many veterans don’t realize the cumulative trauma they’ve experienced until much later.
• Meaningful Work | Finding purpose post-military was essential for Robert’s well-being and sense of fulfillment.

Contact -  Robert Kilsby
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mountainroadracing
Website: https://www.mountainroadracing.au/about-us
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"RESPECT, NO POLITICS, WE'RE VOLUNTEERS"

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Episode Transcript

Claire Fermo (00:04):
Music, welcome to invisible injuries, podcast
aimed at bettering the wellbeingand mental health of veterans,
first responders and theirimmediate support experiencing
post traumatic stress by sharingthe stories of the lived
experiences of our peers, thesupport staff and the
clinicians. It's our aim to makesure we can have a meaningful

(00:27):
connection with our audience andgive them the ideas for their
own self care plan. If you dolike what you're hearing,
subscribe to the channel andshare it with your friends.
Lastly, these stories may be atrigger for your post traumatic
stress. If your PTSD istriggered, we have links to

(00:48):
support in the description. Orif it's immediate, please call
lifeline on 1311, 14. Here'syour host, Andy fermo

Andy Fermo (01:02):
G'day, and welcome to another episode of the
invisible injuries podcast. I'myour host, Andy fermo, and today
a very special guest. His name'sRobert klisby. He served 21
years as a Special Forcesoperator and had a very varied
career, which we're really keento find out about. But these

(01:24):
days, he also runs a mountainroad racing and and he's doing
some great work to be able tohelp out the veterans there and
also be in the motorsport game.
So, uh, big welcome to the show.
Yeah.

Unknown (01:36):
Robert kuhlsby, that's right. So yeah, thanks, mate.
It's nice to be here. And afterhaving a bit of a chat with you,
I think it'll be interesting tore explore my life a little bit.

Andy Fermo (01:48):
Yeah, fantastic mates. Robert, let's start from
the start, as we do with withall of our guests on the show.
What was it that sort of drewyou to the military or Vietnam
veteran? But what was it thatsort of drew you to the military
mate?

Unknown (02:02):
Like a lot of guys, not a country boy, really, I wasn't
in the city so much, but I wasborn in Lee Creek, right up in
the desert in South Australia,and lived in little country
towns, mostly. And as we know, alot of country boys end up
joining the services. They seemto anyway, I was in the Cubs and
then Boy Scouts and all that asI was growing up. So I was very

(02:24):
much in the outdoor adventurebusiness, really, as a kid. And
my father and mother alwayswere. I had a terrific
upbringing. Actually, I've gotto say they brought me up to be
pretty independent kid and havea go and have a crack at things.
So that's that's not a bad breakin the foundation of being in
the services, really. So infact, when I was in high school,
I was also an Army Reservesoldier in CMF. They called it

(02:47):
in those days, says the militarypause, or whatever. And so I was
now the guys were in the fourthyear high school, which was the
fifth year high school in thosedays. I was down in Adelaide, by
then, in the Adelaide Boys Highbut I noticed everyone else was
getting the parties and allthat. When I was down the road
in 10th, 10th battalion, whichis a first world war battalion,

(03:07):
actually, Adelaide, and I washumping 3.5 inch mortars around
the place and things like thatas a teenage high school
student. So I had a very unusualstart, in a way. But from that,
I thought, this is a life, thisarmy stuff. And I was, I must
admit, I met a on an ArmyReserve training trip out at El

(03:29):
Alamein. Some people might knowit out there the the I met a guy
who was a an ex SAS officer asone of the one of the staff or
instructors on that big exerciseroom, and I looked at him, and I
thought, That's pretty histeam's damn professional. And
maybe if I joined the army, Imight end up something like
that. And that was the sort ofNexus. And then I went back to

(03:52):
school after that, and I then Itold my dad, I'm going to leave
the army. I'm going to leave theschool and get into the army. So
I did that. So I joined about 17and a half actually, as enlisted
there and Adelaide, and then didall the normal stuff, went to
capuca and and did it rightthere. And because I'd already
done a lot of the things by thetime I got to capuca reserve for

(04:12):
six months, and I really lovedthe life. I love the main ship
to the camaraderie, and I lovethe outdoor stuff and work with
new stuff. And that's just beenmy life as a kid. And yeah,
right from I was delayed downmazea to

Andy Fermo (04:30):
rob, just Robert. So why? I just wanted to paraphrase
and ask some questions inregards to that. So as a country
kid, you, you mentioned, and alot of other guy that the guests
that we've had before really dohave that skill from being out
in the bush and being working onthe land and being outdoors. Now
you said that you'd already youjoined like a reserve unit the

(04:53):
10th, wasn't it when you were inhigh school and you saw that
bloke that was in the with theSCA. Professional soldier type
that you were saying that youwanted to model yourself off.
Now, did you know about the SASat that time?

Unknown (05:07):
Never heard of it. And I wasn't heavy in the military
history at that time. I gotsteady. I got well in when I
joined the military, but when Ijoined the regulars. But I
didn't know what SAS. All I knewwas it was someone said, Oh,
that's the top of the tree interms of combat, infantry type
of work. And I thought, that'swhere I want to be. I want to be

(05:28):
at the top of the tree. So Ialways had that sort of pursuit
of excellence, sort of feel inme from a kid, Yeah,

Andy Fermo (05:34):
amazing. And when you were in kapuka. And so
someone who who went through,and then going to Vietnam as
well when you went throughkapuka, I just wanted to see
what that type of training wasat that time, because was
Vietnam well underway when youwent, what was the story there?
Yeah,

Unknown (05:52):
well, Vietnam War was, in fact, the reason I go back a
step here. I remember sitting atthe back of my class. Everyone
else was reading theirtextbooks, and I was reading the
newspaper where I was talkingabout the Battle of caisson in
68 a big battle. And I thought,and I read between the lines,
and I thought, this bloody waris going to not be long here.

(06:13):
The Americans are starting tomake noises about pulling out
and all this sort of stuff. AndI thought that war's going to be
finished before I can get there,so I thought I better hurry up.
So I joined the regulars just totry and catch the wall before it
finished. So pretty, pretty wildidea to a lot of kids these
days, but, yeah, but that's theway I thought thought. And so

(06:34):
the when I went to capuco, the Ijust loved all the training, and
there wasn't anything I didn'tlike about it, really. I thought
it was funny how people yelledat you and things like that, and
I didn't faze me at all. Ithought, oh, that's what they
do, and that's their problem,not mine, you know. And because
I was always cracking in thereand doing extra. And so I

(06:55):
there's an old saying in thearmy, never volunteer, but I
like to volunteer foreverything, you know, especially
if there's opportunity there.
So, so the training was, waspretty good. There was the war
was on, so a lot of guys, theytended to try and get a good
number for infantry. Yeah, we'reall regulars there in capuca,
because I think the nationalservice was on at that time.

(07:17):
Yeah, we're older guys, a lot ofyounger guys in capuca, of
course, and the regulars, theolder, the old nachos. So it's
like 2122 sort of age group frommemory. And they were training
in different like skyville, andthink of scrivel, and then also
pakkapandaul. And they had theNash training capucas thing,
yeah. So it was lot of youngblokes, 1817, 1819, sort of

(07:40):
people. So that was good. Andgraduated from there. And I say,
where do you want to go? And Isaid, infantry. And just to try
and make sure, and of course,they sent me to infantry,
because I was right into theinfantry stuff. And it went to
Ingleburn in those days, theinfantry Center at Ingleburn up
near Liverpool in Sydney, whichis was hard yards in those days,

(08:01):
was real working class sort ofthing, and punch a soldier and
punch a bloke in the Liverpoolpub and all this sort of stuff.
Education in that regard. Oh,not

Andy Fermo (08:13):
much has changed, mate.

Unknown (08:15):
So I went through Ingleburn really well, and I was
doing all those crazy thingslike everyone else to get out of
the pub. When I was on the I wasdoing extra training on the in
the obstacle course out the backby myself, and all this sort of
stuff. Because I figured if Iwas going to go anywhere, I
better be good at it. Whateverthat was, I didn't know really.

(08:36):
In the end, I was the youngestguy in the platoon. So this was
something that's gone allthrough my career. I was always
the youngest guy. In fact, I wasthe youngest guy in the last sa
squadron in Vietnam, youngestguy on the regiment for a while
as well, so on. So I was theyoungest guy in the in my
platoon in Ingleburn and but Iwas still made one of the three

(08:59):
sort of squad leaders, orsection commander type, they
allocate three guys, and I wasone of those. Even though I was
the youngest, we had guys inthat push from a couple of guys
out of Long Bay jail. And it wasa few characters, interesting
characters, yeah, in my section,in fact. So I was up against it,
but I loved that, and I didreally well. And in fact, that

(09:20):
we I didn't actually graduatefrom Ingleburn, interestingly
enough, because I was picked upto go to the west even before I
graduated, for whatever reasonand because I applied while I
was in infantry center, and oneof my mates who joined the army
with Lenny Smith, who was agreat soldier, he applied at the
same time, and We ended up goingover there together. It was

(09:42):
interesting because he joinedthe army the same day I did. He
was in the same platoon. Hewasn't Melbourne, and we met him
at Spencer Street Station, whenwe trailed over from Adelaide
and met these, all these otherblokes. We went to compete
together. But so Leno and meended up going together to the
west. But it was interestingbecause we're. Last exercise in,

(10:02):
I remember this fairly vividly,because it was a pretty torrid
time, the last exercise in wherewas a Tuli pass, I think in
those days, mud and the jungleand all this was up, digging
holes and up. Platoon took thesergeant was a bit of a hard
ass, and so he actually made usdo an obstacle course. Build an
obstacle course in the junglethere. So we used to go over

(10:25):
that time and time again. Didn'tworry me. I loved it and but
there was a few disgruntleddiggers in the that was a bit
over the top, but any anyway wewould come to come. It was a
payday, and I was I had an oldoccasion with a couple of guys
in my section. One of them, hewon the punch up. So we were out
the back having a bit of a punchup, and I did slightly better

(10:46):
than him, I think. And so we'regood friends after that, of
course. But the doc said, Oh,hey, day is the pay guys have
arrived in those days. Ofcourse, the guy, the second
lieutenant, would turn up with ayoung digger or Lance Corporal
or something with a pistol, andthey'd pay you out, even in the
field the front up and say, Paytrack, sir, and all that sort of

(11:08):
stuff in those days. And I wentand got my pay, and they said,
pack your bags. Kills me. You'regoing to the west. So I got
chipped out of there with thepay blokes. Went back to
engleburn and all by myself.
There was everyone out was onfinal exercise, so it was a
pretty lonely time there bymyself. I didn't know what was
going to happen. So anyway, hada tub and went to the orderly

(11:28):
room and packed up. And thenthere was Leno from another
platoon there waiting as thesame time. And I said, Where you
going to and he says, we go intothe West mate. And so we flew
off to start the selectionprocess in Western Australia. So
I all those guys that I waswith, they all went to Vietnam,
pretty much. A couple of themwere wounded and one was killed,

(11:48):
I think, but they were greatguys, and I was still in touch
with a couple of today,

Andy Fermo (11:55):
and when you went over to the west, and so that
was still okay, you'd beenearmarked. And that's a
different sort of pathway to howit works these days, but maybe
not too far from what you'redescribing. Robert, and when you
got there, did when you heard AmI going, Oh, you're going over
West. Did you actually, by thattime know what the top of the
tree was and why I

Unknown (12:17):
looked into it a little bit more, and just going back a
step when they did this, theydid the normal application, and
then they send the selectionboard panel around, which was
usually the SI of the course, acaptain or a major in those
days, and the regimental siteofficer or and also the RSM
figure, or it is delegate, yep.
And so you go in there, and theyask you questions about this and

(12:38):
that, and about your past andwhat you like as a kid even. And
they said, you're pretty young,because I was still, I wasn't
18, then when that happened, Iwas still just 17 when they
interviewed me, because I theythought, oh, we'll give him an
interview, this bloke, and thenhave a bit of a laugh. And they
said, we're pretty young. And Isaid, I'm young. I said, I know
what I'm doing. And then I said,I'm gonna go there one way or

(13:00):
another. So if you want me towait, by all means, because you
know, most blokes still in thosedays that come from battalions,
and like I do today, you know,from other parts of the Army,
and they normally reasonablyexperience before they go for
selection, whereas I had no realunit experience, rather than
just training and being acracker of that sort of stuff.

(13:22):
And I said, you want to not beback, because I'm fair enough,
but I'll be back. I'm not goingto go away now. The next No, I
didn't hear any more about it.
And next thing, I'm on a planeto the west, you know. So they
thought, you know, this bloketells good jokes or something,
we'll put him on the trip. Nice.

Andy Fermo (13:39):
And how did that put you having that experience,
coming from a training commandstraight into the selection
process, which kind of remindsme a bit at the moment they've
got it. It's called the DRSscheme, which is the direct
recruiting scheme, where cutseries will come off the street,
and then they'll go straightthrough the training and then
into the selection process forCommando. So that was at my time
as well. It's probably changednow somehow. But when you went

(14:01):
there, how did that training putyou in the stead for you hadn't
been you mentioned the guys comefrom the battalions have got
that groundwork and thatexperience. But did you think
that was a detriment to youcoming there from a training
command and then going in, orwas it more about I'm ready for
this adventure and and I'mpretty much a blank slate to
absorb what you're training mewith, what was the awesome camp?

Unknown (14:23):
There's a couple of aspects of this, right? So the
first thing is that I'm 17. Justturned 18 at the Boxing Day. By
the time I did selection, I justturned 18, which was the
youngest in the selection group.
There was quite a number of us.
And I think 23 finished, andonly five of us, or six of us
were passed as it turned out. SoI went in with the attitude,

(14:46):
let's This is great. Let's havea crack at this. And I that was
my full attitude since when Iwas a kid, and people say, Oh,
selection was really hard andthings like that, but I can't
remember it as being hard atall. I just loved it. I thought
it was funny. It was deadly,deadly serious at the same time.
But I was up. I said, if I'm notgood enough, I'll kick me up.

(15:07):
Yeah, but I'll leave it. I'mgoing to have a crack at this.
So there was that sort of youngattitude, if you like, and made
a good background for that. Andthe second thing is, when you
say, oh, did you think it was adetriment? I didn't have any
sense of that at all. In asense, it was blind ignorance.
Yeah, I just loved it. I lovedall the tests, I loved the

(15:30):
hardship, I loved the sacrificethat you need for this sort of
thing. And I, like, you know, itwas interesting. I remember on a
run one time and blokes werefalling out and crashing. And I
thought, This is shit up. Do youknow I'm still here, and these
blokes are falling away, andthey're a lot more experienced
than I am. And I thought, Thisis shit up. This is great, you
know? So the other thing aboutit is selection. That's always

(15:53):
been in my mind, and certainlywhen I've been involved with the
selection process in variousways in the regiment, what that
what they're recruiting is whatthey're and selecting is the
personality of the guy. A lot ofpeople who are very experienced
soldiers, they don't make itsometimes. So it's not about
your military skills or notreally. It's about whether

(16:15):
you're going to keep gettingback up after seven times, knock
down and get up again. Andthat's got nothing to do with
real military skills, really, inmany ways, you can absorb that
through your military career andall that. But they're looking
for a personality type. And so Iobviously, as far as they were
concerned, because they passedme in the end, out of a I think

(16:36):
they laughed, reckon I told goodjokes or something. But they
they were looking for that typeof person, so I didn't have any
sense of detriment, though I'mnot as good as these guys, or
because there were some veryexperienced soldiers there, but
so a lot of them didn't make it,because then their attitudes
were different, or whatever thecase might be. There's

Andy Fermo (16:55):
those traits within that inherent personality trait,
within the type of personalitythat is really a lot of the
other stuff can be trained, oryou can learn those bits. But if
you're looking at a baselinetype of personality values and
all those other course bits ofthat make up the person that
would be most suited to thatenvironment, that's what they're

(17:15):
looking for. That's what

Unknown (17:16):
you're saying. You know, I think the general
philosophy right through thesedays is they have a these days
have a pretty long reinforcementcycle, so where they take that
piece of clay and they give themall the skills they need to do a
difficult job down the track. Soin those days, of course,
because the wall was on, we gota lot of that sort of training

(17:37):
when we went to our squadron,once we graduated and got badged
and did the Para course, andthen we went to the squadron and
you learned all of that fromguys who just come back from
Vietnam, other Patrol membersand senior guys. He didn't learn
on the job, in a sense, fromdoing a lot of hard training,
yeah, including a couple ofmonths in Papua New Guinea
before he went the infantry.
Went to conundrum andinnisfailos later on, and so

(17:59):
they were had that. But thesquadron did two, two months
flat out in Papua, New Guinea,which is hard yards. Yeah,

Andy Fermo (18:08):
it's just knowing that terrain, that terrain was
just crazy, like I did Kokodalast year. And it's, it's here
to do that with the full pack.
And I just think back to thewhen you're going tactical and
you're trying to go through,you're not using those bloody
pathfinding yourself, it's,yeah, it's

Unknown (18:26):
hard yards up there.
So, very difficult. Drone, youthink back to the Kokoda boys in
the second, 14th and 39battalion against the Japs era.
I think Jesus, hard yardssupplied over that. Drone,

Andy Fermo (18:37):
well, yeah. And or even pulling the boys up, and,
you know, when they wereinjured, and slinging them over
a shoulder and having to climbup and take all those other big
bloody weapons. I just wasgobsmacked when you actually see
it for real, and having to doit, yeah, no, it's

Unknown (18:50):
a good experience for you. That one

Andy Fermo (18:52):
absolutely and so that puts you in good stead,
then for Vietnam. So you, fromwhat I'm hearing, Robert, is
that you're pretty much as oneof the younger blokes or the
youngest at that time, yeah,within a squadron, then bang,
you did your two months inPapua. Was it straight over to
Vietnam?

Unknown (19:08):
No, the thing was that when you go, I did my selection
in this first half of the years,I think around about, around
about March, April, somethinglike that. And then from there,
we went over to did theparachute course over in those
days, William Town Center now,but and then after that, you we

(19:29):
then use allocated the twosquadron. And two Squadron were
the next to gozing. So then wedid, we trained with our
brothers for 10 months, orsomething, two months of which
was in Papua, New Guinea. Butall of these other we did a lot
of training exercises, coursesand all sorts of things. So all
of that, what they call now thereinforcement cycle. We do a lot

(19:49):
of courses and a lot of trainingover a long period of time. It
was all done within thesquadron, and you're working
with the guys you're going tofight with, yeah. So it's a very
comprehensive thing, and somepeople. Yeah, some people fell
by the wayside. They said, Oh,this is not for me, or they move
squadrons or something likethat, because they had different
personal issues, family orwhatever. But most guys were

(20:10):
right into it and cracking on.
So it was and that had beengoing on. We were the last
squadron in Vietnam, as itturned out, yeah, but all the
squadrons, that's what it was athree year cycle. It wasn't a
trickle system, it was a unitsystem. Yep, you're with your
squadron. And that's why people,when they think back to the
redwood days, especially inthose days, they always remember
that squadron they were with,because they spent a lot of time

(20:31):
in there with the blokes andeverything. It was good,

Andy Fermo (20:34):
absolutely. And that was the last platoon that went
over with our squadron twosquadron was the last rotation.
So you got there, you're almostmissed out, but you got there,
right? You got Yes,

Unknown (20:45):
you know, yes. I gotta say, when they pulled the pin, I
think the old golf Whitlam was awas a blow in charge at that
time, and they'd already decidedbefore he came on, that they
were gonna finish up, because ofthe Americans were in their
processes and all that. But Igotta, I loved operations. I
just asked me all over. And so Iwas a scout there, and I reveled
him being a scout, being up thefront. And they had a

(21:07):
tremendous, bloody marvelouspatrol commander. And the
marvelous, you probably knowthis name Hans Fleer was our
patrol two. IC, DCM, yes. So ourpatrol was a was a cracker, one
great patrol commander, grandBrammer. And so I was in pretty
good hands by the time I got toVietnam, and we did a great job

(21:28):
there. And there was some aninteresting time there as well.
Apart from we did a lot ofoperations, there lot of
missions, a lot of patrols. Butone of the, one of the
highlights for me, in a sense,was working with a SEAL team
too. Oh yeah. Cool down theDelta. We used to do exchanges
with them, and now they'd sendsome of our patrols down. We
work in with their theirplatoons. We were with November

(21:51):
platoon down in Dong tam for acouple of weeks, and it was just
brilliant. I did four ups withthem, and it was just something
else. I just loved it then. Butso when they pulled the pin on
us, I thought, you're on. Westill got a few things to do
here. Honestly, I was a littlebit pissed off. I was glad to
have survived. Yeah, I can't sayI've never been afraid of death,

(22:14):
but as a soldier, you're moreafraid of having your arm shot
off or something like that. Whatare you going to do with that?
Then it's a challenge. Deathdoesn't then it still doesn't
concern me, really. It's the bigsleep because he was we had some
we worked hard in the squadron.
We did a lot of patrols. We hada lot, all of our corporals and
sergeants and and, and some ofour, couple of our officers were

(22:37):
ex Vietnam. They've already doneit to, yep, with it, with it. So
we're in very good hands. Theleadership was excellent and

Andy Fermo (22:47):
by and large. And did you go? So just on that,
though, Robert, so when you didgo over with the blokes that you
trained with the head shed, orthe sort of command group that
you're talking about, theyalready had that experience from
a couple of rotations, or atleast one. So the guys that were
actually in the particularplatoon, had they been over as
well, or there was a quite afair bit of

Unknown (23:07):
experience, I'll give me. So I was in, I was in F
troop for courage, right? And Ftroop in two, sort of but so in
my there was, there's fivepatrols in the troop, by and
large, if you're up to strike.
One is, which is run by the inthose second lieutenant, yeah,
Commander, yeah. Not muchexperience still, is still. Most
of them were pretty reasonable.

(23:28):
And ours Brian Russell, he waspretty, pretty reasonable. But
then you've got a troop Sergeantwho's probably on his third sort
of tour. Now, these are 12 monthtours, these tours we're talking
about, right? Yeah, long one, soand so in my the patrol
commanders in my troop, you hadso, you had the two sergeants,

(23:49):
three, yeah, two sergeants haddone a previous stance with with
two squadron in 68 and then twoof us sergeants were on their
fourth operational tour afterDoug lawnio, they've done two
tours with a with they were onthe second tour with sa
Squadron, and they'd also done atour of the training team as

(24:10):
Warren officers. Wow. And one,one of them, Dave shield, was
DCM from that time as well.
Yeah. We had two DCM winners,which is one on the VC in those
days in the troop, and we hadquite a number of blokes who
were very experienced. And thenyou had first time guys like
myself in the squadron for thefirst tour, about probably
making up about a third, orbitter, not a half of the

(24:32):
troops. So it was a veryexperienced troops. And as a
result, and that was the caseright through the six years of
our squadrons went there. Everysquadron got two, two trips out
of it. We did an eight monthtour at the end. So it wasn't a
12 month tour for us. Hence mychagrin.

Andy Fermo (24:50):
He ripping me off.
Two months type thing, ripping

Unknown (24:53):
me off, but, but so these guys had a huge, huge
amount of experience. And as aresult, when you look at the
results of the associated. In inVietnam, I think we only had, I
think we had one guy. We lostpeople, both from accidents and
things like that, but theearlier, one guy died of wounds
from Kia sort of thing, contact,and we did extremely well. We

(25:16):
probably had the best record inVietnam of any unit there, of
all their nations, at a guess ofwhat we did, I often say
flippantly to to civilians. Theysaid, why'd you join? That must
be really crook. And I said, No,I joined essays because I heard
they had really low casualties.
So I thought that's a good placeto go in the war. But that's
just my throwaway line. A coupleof bees.

Andy Fermo (25:41):
Yeah, I love to hear the different points of view and
those experiences of how youcome in. And so in that eight
times you touched on it with theone that one Kia, and then the
other injuries and that duringyour tour. Now, and I'm not
going to ask about any sort ofoperational details with the
with all those missions that youwere doing. What was that the

(26:01):
most rewarding thing that Idon't really ask this when you
were there, what were some ofthe rewarding things that you
did, like in terms of for youpersonally, in from a growth
perspective of being ondeployments with the unit that
you

Unknown (26:13):
were with, I was completely in focus and narrow
minded towards my job as apatrol Scout, and I always
really in the piece with Themanagement. I thought scout is
just the guy that put out thefront that anyone can do it. But
as I, as it turned out, I foundthat it was an actual particular
skill set, in a sense, butmainly personality. Sense,
personality, Cent, I thoughteventually, and because everyone

(26:37):
was cross trained in the patrolof four or five blokes, and I
was a medic as well patrol here,so as medic and stuff, that was
my first course, actually, andin the end, at the end of my
time in there, so I crosstrained in just about every
skill there, just about witheveryone and um, but I was
completely focused in on beingthe guy out the front. So I had

(26:58):
180 degrees out in front of me.
I found, to my found, to mysurprise, that I also had the
ground in front of me. Myfootsteps. I walked over a I
nearly walked over a 500 poundbomb that hadn't exploded one
time in the J Yeah. And mypatrol commander, who was
incredibly supportive, becausehe'd been a scout himself, and

(27:18):
he taught me to scout Well,yeah. And he said, You got to
look down there, mate, look atthat. And I'm just about crap
myself. He said, Yeah, step onthis bomb there. So I learned,
you learn like that from and Ilooked there, and patrol
commander look in the trees overthe top of me. So I didn't have
to look in the trees, and prettymuch I didn't have to worry

(27:39):
about that, because I knew he hehad me back there, and he was
doing that. So I had 180degrees, and that was me against
the world, right? Me against allbad going, yeah. And I thought
that was a pretty good Mitchmix. Loved it, and so I was
really focused on doing afantastic job as best I could.
And I used to talk to otherscouts all the time. I've got a
particular philosophy, or mediaof them, but one of them is

(28:01):
every day is a school day. So Ilike talking to other people in
my line of work and seeing howthey did it and how their patrol
commanders worked them, andeveryone was a bit different. So
you gain a lot of knowledge fromthat sort of professional sort
of cross, cross information.
Absolutely, no, if you want to.
And I certainly wanted to. Iwanted to be the best that I

(28:24):
could be. Yeah,

Andy Fermo (28:26):
that's right. And saying that and this, we'll talk
to this a bit later on, as weprogress through to what you're
doing now, that cross trainingand being able to share that
knowledge, as opposed to justkeeping it in, actually helps
you be able to become thatbetter soldier, or whoever it
is, from that professional pointof view, because you're really
taking in all those bits, andthen you could go, Look, I like
that. I don't like that. Why didyou do it this way? Maybe if the

(28:48):
situation come around, I canbetter myself. And I think that
makes much more rounded soldier.
Anyway,

Unknown (28:54):
I think it does, as we were saying before, it's not
something necessarily that youcan learn if you haven't got
that attitude, yeah, anyway, youjust, you might be a good
soldier or but you're not agreat soldier, or you're not
being able to inspire others,and so on. So I, I was brought
this, brought home to thisbusiness of a scouting one of

(29:16):
the other guys actually wasLeto, my old mate mentioned,
yeah, he was in another patrolin there, and he's quite a good
one as well. And he got bittenby a spider or something out of
patrol. After about two daysout, he was pretty crook, and
the signal came back in with theold Moscow and said, I need to
replace the scout. I need ascout. I didn't want to anyone

(29:40):
else he won the scout. So theword went around the hill there,
said, right, who we got in, whowe got here, who's a scout? And
they wouldn't. They weren'tthinking about just anybody.
They needed a particular Scoutto replace a scout. And I
thought, and that's whathappened, and I was I already
had my rations for anothermission. Than that. So I was

(30:01):
given two hours notice to be onthe chopper to go and replace,
as it turned out, and went outand a little right out in the
bush, long way behind the linesin a little bell Sue chopper
with me and the pilot, and withme and my gear and that. And I
also took a sandbag full ofBucky milks and things

Andy Fermo (30:19):
like that. Oh yeah.
So yeah, always come bearinggifts long, yeah,

Unknown (30:24):
I remember that. But so that was quite an experience.
But I was taken by the fact thatthere were two of us on the Hill
who were scouts at that time,who were available, but the
other I had the reversionsalready for a patrol, and the
other guy was further back inthe prep sort of time. And so I
was picked for that, get on thechopper sort of stuff. Yeah. So
that was a bit of anilluminating thing to me, that

(30:46):
so scouting, to me was, as itturned out, it was a big deal,
and a lot of guys would never dothat job, because they think,
no, I don't like it or whatever,but they were really happy being
a SIG or a man or a demodemolition guy or all those. And
so there's a few guys who reallylove that scouting thing. It's a
bit, it's a bit sort ofgunslinger ish,

Andy Fermo (31:05):
yeah, like I said, it takes a different type of
personality, but even withincertain specific roles, within,
uh, within a team, to go, yeah,no, I'm happy to be able to do
that. Like in a traditionalsection. It's like he could be
number one or number two, bodyback, and you go, that's not the
best way to be able to paintthat bloody role, is it? But

Unknown (31:22):
as a result, you know, they were very cognizant of
this. So they always had thebest people for the best jobs
within the patrol in terms, butyou're all cross trained, you
could still do the other jobs,yeah. But that way the patrols
was a, it's a pursuit ofexcellent selection sort of
process and and it worked prettywell. I think for most patrols
that way, they write people forthe right, right tasks and

(31:45):
things amazing. And the it wasinteresting. You're one of our,
one of our big strengths, if wemessed up, the old troop
sergeant and me were at oppositeends of the a scale. That a bit
of a generational clash there, Ithink so I used to, I didn't
like being in the base much. Iwas always itching to get out of
rocks, and so I used to play upa bit here and there, no doubt.

(32:07):
And he's, he always said, Ron,are you blokes? You mess up
anymore? I'm going to send youdown the hill, and you'll be
wearing one of those big brownhats in the battalion. Be a poor
Scout doing 20 clicks a day downthere. And then, oh no, don't
throw me in the rivals. It was abit of a laugh, but it was so it
was a very you're with you.
You're with guys. You trainedwith our teams of me for a long
time. You Have you fought withthem. And the bonds as from your

(32:30):
own experience going back toyour operational time, very
strong. And when our patrol haseventually died we were all
surprised. We thought he'd bethe last one to go, but he died
of cancer. But we, we've had abasically a lover food, for 50
odd years with all their guys inthe patrol, and it's just like
yesterday when you see him. Andso it's an incredible bond. And

(32:53):
you know, yeah, that's

Andy Fermo (32:57):
right, it could be a couple of years between catch
ups, but within 10, within fiveminutes, you're back to the the
old antics again, and it's likeyour bloody in your 20s again,
right? That's right, runningamok, doing you're doing what
you do.

Unknown (33:11):
I still call myself an elderly teenager, so, yeah, it's
cool. So I gotta, I'm too old.
They won't give me a gunanymore, so I'm gonna race cars
and things like that.

Andy Fermo (33:20):
Oh, exactly. And we'll get to that. I did ask
about what was some of thosemore pivotal points? Robert, I'm
gonna go to the other end of thescale there. And obviously we
could talk a bit more about thepost Vietnam part. Yeah, so in
terms of the traumas and thatthere, how, what was it that you
did when you were exposed? AndI'm mindful of any details, so
I'm

Unknown (33:40):
going to try and work this as best. Think, I think you
can talk about this in a coupleof facets, or a few facets,
really. But one is that whenyou're in a highly trained
group, even though you talkabout an essays patrolling those
days and immediately, themissions they would carry out
today are the similar you'regoing into the behind their
lines, as the cliche goes, we'regoing into their territory, not

(34:02):
ours, long way from help. So thefurther away you were from help,
by the time you're through theyou might be on the run even.
And you put the little code wordradio thing, we need to get out
of here in a hurry, he might beon the run. You're always
outnumbered just about all thetime by a lot. Yeah, we're

Andy Fermo (34:19):
to patrol, patrol the five, well, it's

Unknown (34:22):
That's right, so, so that's the thing that that we
used to think about, becausethat's our job. So that's fine,
and we were very confident,obviously, with what we could do
and everything. But if you gaveyourself time to think about and
you could probably be worriedabout it, but everyone was
getting stuck into their job,really. So that's a good coping
mechanism for against trauma andthings like that. A lot of

(34:42):
people saw a lot of things, andit was interesting that I had
very good coping mechanism forsuch a long time that I used to
think PTSD. I never knewanything about that, and most
blokes were the same. It comesit takes a long time to be to
realize or get a group. Orunravel, or sometimes, so I'm
late comer to it in terms ofdiagnosis, yeah, but certainly

(35:06):
you go through the same trauma.
But it was interesting when Ifinally, was finally diagnosed
with PTSD, for example, it runup to that various psychologists
and psychologists are saying,what was the incident? That that
was a traumatic incident. I saidI could never think of an
incident. I could never whatincident, I don't know, and I
was just still a job, but it,but I figured out after a while

(35:26):
that actually there was 100incidents, but I just thought
that was normal job, right?
Yeah, that's all part of thejob, isn't it? You just pick
yourself up and get on with itand and you're trained to do
that, and also your personalitythat they select is able to
handle that generally? No, youreally use never quits guy. You
keep on getting back up. Youkeep on planning again. And

(35:49):
that's the nature of specialforces in general, I think, no
doubt, and all the rest of it.
But so I had trouble coming upwith any trauma. But I do
remember one, one particularthing I for my first the mission
with the SEAL team. What theyused to do the SEAL team was
like the bad boys of the US Navyin those days. They weren't

(36:10):
highly regarded. They were realcowboys, regarded as real
outlaw, cowboy type of people.
And they have to, they had toget their own intelligence,
basically, and then concocttheir own missions. They used to
do these, what they call theIntel runs that the diary the
captain of the platoon. Theirplatoons are about 15 people,
yeah, it's run by a NavyLieutenant orbs. That's for the

(36:34):
rank in the seals and the chiefPatty officers and all that sort
of stuff. And they used to dothese Intel runs. So you go
around all these differentbases, he'd dress in his navy
greens with his cap and as aNavy type of officer. And then
he had three bad guys dressed injeans and T shirts and for beer

(36:58):
in the in this Jeep as hisprotection group. And I went
along as one of those guys onthis trip. We went and we, geez,
we transverse some really badcountry, getting from one base
to another base to talk to theirintel guys and say who you got
and what's happening in yourdistrict and all this sort of
thing. That's how they concoctedtheir missions, right? They
didn't have an over and over.
They weren't in part of the Navyintelligence, in a sense, they

(37:20):
go around and cook up their ownmissions, which, which was
always pretty, pretty good,successful. But the the platoon,
before November platoon was, I'mpretty sure it was x ray
platoon, and they were decimatedin a riverine operation. They
were they had a lot ofcasualties and dead and stuff
like that. So it was dangerousstuff down the door. There's,

(37:41):
there was a huge number ofbaddies down there, and it was
highly populated area. So we hadto cross this river, the big
river, and we got on this bigferry. And I remember there's
this us. It was a, it wasprobably an Air Force Jeep which
had been swiped with the boltcutters off a tree in Saigon,
and then they painted US Navy onit. That's how they used to get

(38:04):
their vehicles, these guys. Andso we're in this now new Navy
Jeep, and sitting in this and Ialways remember this later on. I
didn't think of it at the timebecause I was very tense, ready
to shoot anybody, because we'rein this we're surrounded by
South Vietnamese civilians,mainly, but you but many of them
could have been BC, all of that,and they're all looking at us

(38:26):
with daggers. And there was like300 we're surrounded by 300 400
people. And this thing tookabout half an hour to cross a
river and stuff like that. And Ialways remember back to that,
thinking that was prettytraumatic. Actually, we were
ready to die. Basically, yes, wegot caught up in this ferry, and
anyway, nothing happened. It wasfine. You don't have to have

(38:46):
things happen. No, no.
Individual married, no. And Idon't think I made it up. All
the other guys felt the same.
Said we got out there. Webreathe easy. We thought another
one

Andy Fermo (38:58):
that's right, that's it's that impending. It's that
impending feeling of somethingthat's gonna go down, and it
could go either one of two ways,and could happen pretty bloody
quickly. And if you go somewhereand you're picking up on that
vibe, you got 300 400 peoplelook at this. You're like, oh
yeah, you're not supposed to behere, mate. I think the way
you're meant to be somewhereelse, that that sort of feeling.

Unknown (39:19):
But we were ready to down blazing. We didn't have
safe safety on the weapons. Wewere ready to rock, yeah. And,
but it was, this is the end ofit.

Andy Fermo (39:28):
Absolutely. Yeah.
And, like we mentioned before,Robert that as well, is that
when they first diagnosed you,and they are the specialists
asking all these questions thatcomplex PTSD piece about as from
speaking with previous guestswith the complex that's a very
big that's a very real thingthat compounding many incidents
is not just one, but many. Overa long time, your body still has
the output of this and thesymptoms from a traumatic event.

(39:51):
You know what I mean? It's thetraumatic event, whether it's a
singular one or and so movingforward. Forward from just an

Unknown (40:01):
addition to that, yeah, like all of our guys, like all
of our guys in the regimentthere, the shooters anyway,
yeah, we had a lot of injuriesbecause the training is very
difficult, and you probably knowthat from your own experience
from pre regiment, but thetraining is difficult, it's very
realistic, and we've lost a lotmore people in training than we
ever have on operations. But soyou're always you've got a lot

(40:21):
of injuries going on, which isconnected with the mental side
of things as well, right?
Because you're overcomingvarious levels of pain on a
fairly normal basis. Uh, many ofthe guys are like that, and all
our guys have been like that,all the operators and some are
fortunate, the more fortunatethan others. I don't have any
mental issues as it with me,took a long time for me to

(40:43):
unravel, because I, when I wentto my first proper psychiatrist,
probably in in early 2000s like,probably about 2002 three or
something like that. That waswhat was that? It was like 30
years after the war sort ofthing, and I've been but I've
been a soldier for 21 years aswell, doing all the training, as

(41:05):
well as other operations andstuff. But the said to me that
she had a big file on me rightafter only seven business and I
thought, What's in that pile?
And because I was I finally justsaid, I'll just tell them what
they asked me. I won't sellmyself as something else, or,

(41:25):
yeah, as you do. I'll just tellit as it is and just be and see
what they're making that which Iwas, and she had a scrappy
follow me, and she said, I said,Well, I must be I'm pretty good,
aren't I? She said, No, really.
And I said, she said, You gotand this is what she said. I
don't know with her, justquoting her, whether why she

(41:48):
said this, I don't know. I'mstill not completely believing
it. But so you got one of theworst cases of PTSD I've seen in
a bit. I'm veteran. I said thatcan't be, right? I didn't see
much. I didn't do much. I didn'thave people dying around me,
like in Kokoda or something. Hedidn't have blokes getting their
legs that aren't blown off.
Blah, blah, blah. I didn't see alot of that. Saw a little bit,
and you were there, but notmuch. And but it's all these

(42:10):
other all these other dramatictimes and other injuries and
things like that, nearly in atraining accident or something
like that. But she said, butalso you've got one of the best
coping mechanisms that I've everseen from anybody that made me
feel a little bit better. Butshe said, That's why you've been

(42:30):
able to keep on going. And Ithought, crikey, that was like
news to me, all that. And Ithought, Oh, okay. In fact, she
said, I I'd like you to comeback. I've got a few psychiatric
psychiatrist colleagues that I'dlike to get together, and I'll
get them, I'll get you to tellthem how you do that stuff. And
I thought, hell no, right, no,I'm not going to do that. That's

(42:55):
a bridge too far for me. I washaving a hard enough time
telling the truth over six,seven visits tonight. It was up
in Ipswich, and I had to driveback home each time. And I
nearly killed myself a few timesa traffic accidents, because my
head wasn't there. Yes. So eachsession, every once, every few
weeks, or three weeks orsomething, was a trauma in
itself, in a sense, pissing upbasically no

Andy Fermo (43:17):
worries about Hold on. I'm just going to pause you
there for a moment, because, wefast forwarded a lot in terms of
that sort from the post Vietnamto your career. I just want to
back it up so then that way, wecan have that precedent of you
coming into what happened whenthings started to unravel, like
in those early 2000s when youstarted seeing a psychic, and
when all these, all these otherbits started simmering to the

(43:39):
top right. So you served your 21years and post Vietnam. Then
there was that period where itwas a bit of a peacetime army
for a while afterwards. But thatdidn't detract from, because you
guys, you said that there wassome really crazy you trained
hard to be able to do yourthings. And there was some sort
of, obviously, some traumasthere, from some near misses and

(44:00):
the like from, from all thoseother pieces. Now, during what
was it? Can I see what, what itwas like, because your, your,
your mindset was different interms of, there was a lot of
Vietnam veterans that sort ofsay as well, and, and not
detracting from that.

Unknown (44:15):
I mean, they, I remember they, they had a dress
parade or something like that,where people had to wear their
medals and all that sort ofstuff. And it was really
interesting. So about by 75 forexample, there was still a very
high proportion of Vietnamveterans there with their medals
on, yeah, which is very unusualin a post war unit across the
board, yeah, because most guysgo through the war when they get

(44:39):
out, and then the new guys comein and etc. So there was so
there was a lot of experience.
The the average age of theregiment in those days was about
2728 Yeah, very experienced guysstaying in the waiting for the
next mission, right, waiting forthe next war. Remember when I
left the seal compound in DongTam, their little enclave there?
And we said to you later, boys,and one of the seals yelled out,

(45:01):
see your next war man. Lovethat. But so that's what a lot
of guys are, professionalsoldiers who were waiting for
the next war to come along. Andthey trained very hard right
through the 80s and 90s and allthat. And that's one of the
reasons why the boys did, didpretty well in, you know, places
like Iraq and Afghanistan andthings like that, because all

(45:22):
that, all of those guys waitingfor the next war, training their
guts out, yeah, and developingand innovating and and all of
that. So that's well known,that's well received in the
regiment, actually, yes, eventhough they didn't go anywhere,
there's a long time of peace andbut it was that effort that was
there put in. So I one thingwith me. I was able to get

(45:43):
selected in the regiment earlyfor unconventional warfare,
right? So this actually becamemy specialty in my career. Is,
and it still is, in a sense,what I think about. It's all
about guerrilla warfare and allsorts of operations, special
operations around that. So thatwas really interesting to me.
Even they had a lot of veryexperienced guys in there, in

(46:03):
that small group that we didthere. And so we're going back
now to 73 and I did that until7070 right through for about 18
months or so. And then theystarted thinking, Oh, this is a
bit embarrassing. We talk aboutcertain wars in other people's
countries, back in Canberra,and, oh, I don't know, a bit of

(46:25):
bit of calm this down, a bit.
But of course, it's a veryimportant set of skills. And in
fact, one regiment now has gotthe, again, has got the the
responsibility for that area.
And that sort of when they Kaiby sad. I thought, there's
nothing going on here. I'm not apeacetime soldier, really. So I
thought, No, we're gonna go andI so I thought that I'd do a

(46:47):
language course, because they,they seemed to open up a world
of different things. Yeah, wewent over there thinking I was
going to do Indonesian becausewe're done Indonesian language
in the UW side of things and allthat. Those one of the skills
areas, and I did pretty wellwith the aptitude, was I was
always right. I'll go over andhave a year doing Indonesian and

(47:07):
playing ping pong most of time,because having party on in point
cook radical languages for 12months, I went over there and I
saw my name on the on theChinese course. There was six of
us on the course. We worked likebuggers the whole year, flat
out, and they'll end on stillwet and party. So after that, I

(47:28):
went into intelligence, right?
And as I mentioned to youbefore, worked cumulatively with
then called defense signalsdirector DSD, now called ASD for
about five years, and did a lotof things in there. And that was
pretty interesting. And twoyears of that I was in, I lived

(47:48):
in Hong Kong, for example, 600yep, there on the sharp end of
the thing, so to speak. And thiswas a big there was another foot
in another camp in a sense ofprofessionalism. And then I was
coming back from, I was comingback from, from Hong Kong in
right at the end of 1979 Ifigured that there's nothing
left for me to do in the army.
There's no war on. So I couldn'tbe very satisfied. I thought,

(48:11):
I'm not a peacetime dude. I'mnot interested in that. I'm
interested in operations. So Ithought, I'll get out, and the
next big thing is business. I'llgo into operations in business.
So with my background andlanguage and all that, I
thought, I'll start. I'll be aconsultant to help Australian
people, the Australiancompanies, do business in
Chinese. Oh, yeah. And I likechallenges. I don't like doing

(48:32):
easy stuff. And when I got backmy my old troop commander from
UW ran me up, and he says, I'mpicking up a squadron, and then
what are you doing? I said, I'mgetting out you've done 12 years
or whatever it was. It's justpeacetime stuff. He said, I'm
picking up a squadron. I wantyou to come back and and be with
us in the squadron, becauseit'll fair bit of time for me,

(48:53):
obviously, from the UW days andin that Robo tree. And he and I
said, no, no. And he said, Isaid, I've done all that before.
And he said, No. He said, I'mnot talking about being an
operator from the on the thatside of it. I'm talking about
running my Intel for me. And Iwent, Oh, yeah, alright, no, I'm
still getting there. But half anhour later, the old house

(49:16):
banging away. And I gave him aring and said,

Andy Fermo (49:21):
hey, the car was dangling down there ready for
you to snap at it. Right? Boom,

Unknown (49:26):
yeah, he knew what to say to me. So the old regiment
heart got me as I the candlestarted to flicker again, so I
went back there. And then I hada really interesting time in the
next few years in the regimentwhere I did all the Intel side
of it. And then those days, itwasn't like now, where you've
got a huge Intel overview andOverwatch and collaboration with

(49:48):
a whole bunch of differentagencies, but in those days we
were probably we had to generateit. So I was in a really good
position, because I'd done allthe operations side pretty much,
and certainly in theunconventional side. As well,
yes. So I was able to basicallybe the squadron IO type of
figure and come up with somepretty innovative stuff. And
given the, given my backgroundin n UW, and also my

(50:11):
understanding of militaryhistory, I was able to come up
with some pretty good stuff. Butin so did that in the war roles
a bit. And then I went into, andI did two years consecutive in
counter tourism work, runningtheir intel for him, so in the
squadron. So I was that wasgood, because I used to shoot
just like the operators all thetime, and did a lot of that, and

(50:33):
did all their stuff as well. Butmost of the time I was doing
scenarios and all sorts ofthings around the around
Australia, and doing a lot ofrecces and all that sort of so
it was an interesting time forme, interesting

Andy Fermo (50:43):
that you could a bit like, besides having that
operational experience and beingthe shooter there is going to
the other sort of training sidethere and making it you
mentioned before, Robert thatyou want to train hard and then
work easy, but you have to comeup with those scenarios and all
those training things to be ableto take into account different
things that are going on, geopolitically, and then within,

(51:04):
from different points of view,and then actually make it as
realistic as you can. Right yourtraining in those

Unknown (51:09):
days, developing a lot of collaboration with the
National Intelligence agenciesand things like that. So there
was a, from my point of view,there was a quite a lot of cross
flow of information andcollaboration and training,
indeed, with some of them. Sothen I got a couple of short
stints at school of militaryintelligence as a, firstly, as a

(51:30):
staff sergeant, which was a incourse rank, and then, and then,
as it were two, in the secondtrance. But I've done a lot of
writing and developing in thattime. And so I was picked up. I
think I was the first in coolguy to pick up the infantry slot
of a week. So I majored down atthe island at that time, at Swan
island with the special, whatthey call the Special Warfare

(51:52):
wing in those days, and that wasas a detachment of the
headquarters of one commanderregiment who had the
responsibility at that time. Andnow they've gone back, and
they've been re given thatformerly, they've been given
that responsibility for thattheory, which is very important.
And so that was interesting,that that that time was very
close to when I only had onemore year in the army after

(52:17):
that, officially, before I cameback and did Psyops and stuff
that that two years as a we sawMojo. There was the peak of my
career, in a sense, because allof the things that I've absorbed
and experienced and learned andall that I was able to put into
that job. So it's a very rarething, I think that people get
that chance. Yeah, they haveeverything, and I'm not talking

(52:39):
and they do a rank or havingthose sort of things, because
that was, I'd never thoughtabout that sort of stuff,
mainly, but it was just all theskill areas and the thought
process, the concepts andinnovation and development all
went into that one job, to me,was my sort of Everest,

Andy Fermo (52:57):
yeah, absolutely.
And it's not, it is great to beable to be able to hear, yeah,
absolutely. It is great to beable to hear that was that
culmination of all thatexperience and being able to put
everything in and then have thatrole that was there at that time
ready for you to be able to go,bang, I'm going to hit the
ground running.

Unknown (53:13):
It's pretty rare when you think a lot of guys, I
remember a lot of guys in theregular army, they said, Oh, I
went where they sent me, and Ihad a good crack at it, and all
this sort of stuff. But theywere never in a position where
they were able to literally getall of that stuff and apply it
into one job. And that was afantastic, satisfying thing for
me. It wasn't easy, but I don'tlike doing easy thing.

Andy Fermo (53:36):
We'll get to that.
So when you finally decided toleave that sort of second time
around, old mate, didn't whack acarrot in. Did you leave on your
terms or we Yeah,

Unknown (53:44):
pretty much they actually came my court said at
that time was just interesting,and sometimes I've I've never
regret things that I've done orhaven't done even, but they came
to me and said, Oh, we've got agood posting for you. We're
going to send you back to theregiment, as a way one do the
int side for the regiment now.
And I thought, No, I I thoughtit was still peace time. And I

(54:09):
thought, That soundsinteresting. I could be
innovative there, and I couldmake it, make the role well. And
they thought I'd die for thechance, right? And I surprised
them. I said, No, I don't thinkso. I'm going to get out. I'm
going to I'd like to go back asan instructor to smi and they
went, what? Because we'd boughta block of land up here in Mount

(54:30):
temporary. And I thought, No,I've got to retire. I was some
like 38 3940 or whatever it was.
And I thought, I've had a careerin the military. It's peace
time. If it was war time, I'dnever leave. But it was peace
time, and I thought, I've got tomake another career. I'm young,

(54:51):
and I've seen all these guysthat stay in the army for a long
time to just breathe in there,being there, yeah, for me. So I
thought I said, No. Yeah, eventhough that was a sort of
absolute plum thing, they wereoffering me, really, and it
would have been instrumental.
Later on, I'd still be there andwe would, I would have been on
operations 10 years later, butwhatever, all the operations
that came about eight, 910,years later. But I So, I said

(55:14):
no. And so we built a house, andall this I retired. And then
about the year or two afterthat, I was, I went in and did
as I mentioned before,consulting one year, close to a
year back in smi as you know,normally, I was a way to
training officer with theBritish exchange officer doing
all the resistance tointerrogation stuff and all that

(55:34):
kind of stuff and all that now,but I, but my main job there was
to help develop psyops, which Iwas one of our specialties in
UW. So that was, that was aninteresting time. It's the next
big thing. So go in thebusiness, try and do the best I
can there and make money and doall that business stuff that was
pretty much my career. Was

Andy Fermo (55:55):
that, did you end up doing that same model that you
mentioned before, like going inand helping people build
business overseas. They're usingNo,

Unknown (56:03):
I just went in and I I thought, we're going to teach
myself this stuff. So I learnedto push myself to do a lot of
things in sales and marketingand learn, learn all that stuff.
And because that's the biggestthing in business, really, the
other people that get paid themost typically. And so I pushed
myself to do that, and but Irealized actually, I'd been in

(56:24):
sales all my time in themilitary, telling, usually
telling people they didn'tthings I didn't want to hear,
selling ideas and innovation andin the things that I'd be
repurposing, though there'sspecial force units, they're in
the business of trying to sellthemselves all the time, so they
get another job. That's the nameof the game release. And so that
was the right side. I've beenworking for myself pretty much

(56:46):
for the last till I retired,officially, around about 2014 I
got out by the time I finishedthat extra bit in the full time
home reserve there sign up. SoI'd done, I'd had about, that
was about 1994 or something likethat, probably about 20 years
then I went into business, and Iwas simultaneously, in many

(57:08):
cases, I was helping people buyinvestment properties and things
like that. A lot of things insales, marketing, I was worked
for a terrific friend of mine,very close friend of mine, with
the crisis and emergencymanagement consultancy around
the world, dealing with them,big business teams and stuff
like that was built. And so Iwas able to bring some of that
military experience into thatsort of field, which is good.

(57:32):
And then finally, I thought, nothat. And I met a guy who was by
the, I'll go back a step in 20021002 or one or two. I was going
what I describe as going out thedoor backwards, right, going
back in the toilet bowl. I wasstarting to unravel a bit, and
mentally, and what's this allabout? Just rubbish sort of

(57:55):
thing. And so I, being me, Idecided I needed something to do
while I was going out the backdoor was I was starting to think
about taking taking pictures ofme off the walls and doing all
that stuff right getting ready.
And I thought, I need to dosomething while I'm doing all
that, because I don't like beinginactive. So I said I've got a
couple of Alfa Romeos there thatI've always liked and and had as

(58:17):
road cars, and then I'll restorethem for my sons and give them a
car before I head off, before Igo. And I wasn't, I wouldn't say
I was suicidal, but I was inthat downward spiral, right?
Yes, and because making moneyfor making money is isn't
anything meaningful, not to meanyway. So I've lost this
meaning in my life. In a sense,I had a great family, everything

(58:40):
like that. From my own personalstandpoint, I wasn't doing
anything meaningful, and thatstarted to unravel me. I wasn't
able to, I said, copingmechanisms. Who cares? I went to
the Alfred Motor Club inBrisbane, and I found to get a
few tips on how to restore thesecars and stuff like that. And I
found these guys, a lot of themwere racing around the track,

(59:02):
and their Alpha Romeos competingevery couple of weeks and things
like that, went Oh. And the oldblame started to cut the off
competition stuff. And I thoughtthat's something even better
that I can do while I'm goingout the back door. So I started
looking at actually finding anold car, old alpha that I could
do up and maybe do a bit of thatbefore I left and and that's

(59:23):
what took me into competition.
And I found, I found that trackracing was all right, but it's a
bit, it's sort of bit likeplaying golf. You're trying to
perfect the swing hit thatperfect corner the split second
quicker than around the cornerthat he did last time. There's
only so many corners, but I wasinvited to have a look at tarmac

(59:43):
rally, where rallying and DiRTRally is a bit expensive on
tyres and all those sort ofthings, and damage to the car
picked up tarmac rally. And Ilike fingering through the hills
anyway. And so I had a look atthat. And I said, Well, what's
the hardest thing you can do?
Then they said, Oh, targetTasmania is the hardest. Hardly
anyone does that. And I said,Oh, that sounds like me.

Andy Fermo (01:00:07):
There's the challenge, right? Yeah, I

Unknown (01:00:09):
just, I just can't help myself anyways. So I started
having a meaningful thing. Istarted having goals again and
things like that. And thentarget Tasmania was, it was for
me. Then it was very expensiveand harder to get your car
ready, and a long way to go andall this sort of thing. So I did
a sort of a step up thing intarget in classic Adelaide in
2003 and my first major, as Icall it now, and and that saved

(01:00:33):
me really going back, you know,I thought this is very
uplifting. This area. All theseguys are all submitting crews
and that. But they're all someof them are quite wealthy, some
of them not so wealthy, andthey're all pursuing excellence
here. They're working in smallteams. Sounds like, yeah, so it
saved me, and I got my website.
I've said that in the blurb,yeah, saved me there and and
then. So I continue with that.

(01:00:57):
So I I was able to save myselfand not go down the Googler. Can
I? Can

Andy Fermo (01:01:01):
I just pause that bit there because of this? I
think it's really important withwhat you've just said there, and
I want to unpack that a littlebit more. Robert, if we could
please

Claire Fermo (01:01:11):
join us next time for the next episode of the
invisible injuries podcast.
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