S05E20 - Robert Kilsby (ex SAS & Mountain Road Racing) pt2 - Invisible Injuries - Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Claire Fermo (00:04):
I welcome to invisible injuries podcast aimed
at bettering the wellbeing andmental health of veterans, first
responders and their immediatesupport experiencing post
traumatic stress by sharing thestories of the lived experiences
of our peers, the support staffand the clinicians. It's our aim

(00:25):
to make sure we can have ameaningful connection with our
audience and give them the ideasfor their own self care plan. If
you do like what you're hearing,subscribe to the channel and
share it with your friends.
Lastly, these stories may be atrigger for your post traumatic
stress. If your PTSD istriggered, we have links to

(00:46):
support in the description. Orif it's immediate, please call
lifeline on 1311, 14. Here'syour host, Andy fermo,

Andy Fermo (01:02):
you mentioned before, and you've talked about
it, but I'll just talk about youmentioned before those having
those suicidal ideologies,you're in a role that you were
doing, but it got to that pointwhere you'd lost that spark, or
the lost that flame, or sense ofpurpose, in a sense, right? You
mentioned that there were thingsthat were starting to unravel.
You know, were things startingto unravel before you noticed

(01:23):
them? Or what was that sort ofstory there where you go, oh
shit, actually, I'm starting togo down the drain. There. Was
there a specific thing or not aspecific thing? But when was it
that you started noticing thatthings weren't quite right?

Unknown (01:37):
I think really it was a I guess a lot of guys who are
transitioning out of themilitary now and before, and
especially those guys who aremedically discharged and that
they get out, and then all of asudden, they're in a different
dog eat dog world, and no onegives a rat's ass about them,
etc, in comparison with being inthat accountable, structured
sort of military life generallyturn up on time. And so there's

(02:02):
that sort of drift that thatwhat's this? So there was a bit
of that in there, probably. AndI, up until then, I've been
working phonetically. I've beendoing one two jobs at the time,
all sorts of things going crazy.
So my coping mechanisms wereexcellent, right? But then after
a while, I thought making moneyfor money started unraveling in
that respect. So it's a bit,it's a bit akin to this

(02:23):
transition thing with guyscoming out of the military,
yeah, but it happened to melater in terms of I've been I
thought when I was making errorswith personal finances, and then
relationships were difficultsometimes, and thought it's just
not happening. And so that's howI was. When I say I was
unraveling. It wasn't I didn'twant to punch people or, no, no,

(02:44):
I get it. They're trying to kickthe boss in the ass or anything
like that. I work for myself,which is hard yards for most
people. Anyway, I'd always dothat. I believe that. I believe
in myself, so I can work formyself, but a lot of people find
that difficult, but I think it'sthe only way, because it's
challenging is more rewarding ifyou can do it properly,

Andy Fermo (03:05):
like when you were in a sorry Robert, so when you
were, when you were in thatvulnerable state where you
started noticing yourselfunraveling, as you call it. You
mentioned earlier as well, isthat when you, when you finally
started seeing some specialiststhere around about, that's a
circa that around about thattime. And that woman had that
Compendium, the EncyclopediaBritannica, on your worst case

(03:28):
ever, and then she said you hadthe coping with 5007

Unknown (03:31):
probably by the time I got to see her. But I've seen
two or three otherpsychologists, so I remember
going to I did this because ofmy family, because my wife. So

Andy Fermo (03:41):
that was the decision. So, so that decision
to go and see someone was, whatwas

Unknown (03:46):
your wasn't for me. It was for my wife, for example,
yeah and other family memberswho said I should see someone,
or, yeah, something like that.
And my coping mechanisms up tothat point were, were exemplary,
right? So I wasn't thinking thatsomething wrong with me, or I
need help, or whatever I'msaying, I'm traveling okay here.
But then I thought my wife, Idid it for her, really, to see

(04:10):
what, whether there was aproblem. And I remember going,
my very first guy I went saw wasa was an ex sergeant, infantry
sergeant, who was a advocate orsomething in the RSL in the Gold
Coast there somewhere. And Iwent and saw him, and I said,
Don and I don't have anyproblems here. He said, What are
you hearing at the moment? Isaid, What do you mean what I'm

(04:30):
hearing? He said, are youhearing? And I said, Well,
there's a lot of cricketsoutside the window. He said,
There's tinnitus. There's nocrickets outside their windows.
I said, Oh, I'm really, I mean,think of this. But bunch of
crickets everywhere. And hesaid, So the other question he
asked me was, see. He said, Howdo you feel if you see some bad
things happen to people in frontof you or and I said, Nothing.

(04:51):
Why wouldn't I feel anything?
And he said, What do you mean?
Nothing. I said, I'm numb tothat. I I'm just, I'll go and
help, and I'm trying. Going tojump in there and save, which
I'd done a couple of times withcrashes and things like that,
but I don't feel anything thereat that time. And he said, mate.
He said, That's a good sign ofPTSD. He said, You got a few
things so you need to sort outand and so he recommended a

(05:14):
psychiatrist, a psychologist tome, psychologist, not a
psychologist. And so I went andsaw her for about four four
event, and she said, and shesaid, After this, she said,
you're one of the most positivepeople I've ever met. She says,
you're on top of you're so faradvanced from a lot of other
people that I but you. Butsomewhere in there, she said,
definitely there's a few thingswrong in there, but I can't put

(05:38):
my finger on it, because I'm inthe sales business, I'm saying,
Yep, let's do it. This is thestory. So I was too proactive.
And so that was the first time.
And then then I investigated. Ikept doing this from my family,
really, because I thought thewife had been with me for a very
long time. She'd been putting upwith me for a long time, and I'd

(05:59):
made errors and this sort ofstuff. And I thought, no, I
better do it for her. Thetrouble is, I wasn't doing it
for myself, right, in a sense.
So I I then went to psychiatristin the Gold Coast, who I heard
was really good with Vietnamveterans, understood them and
understood what they've beenthrough and all that. And he had
a lot of clients who wereVietnam veterans at that time.
And I went to see him, and hesaid that he came to the idea

(06:21):
that there was nothing wrongwith me. And I thought to
myself, mate, you need to handin your license. By that time, I
was doing a fair bit ofretrospective thinking,
reflective thinking, and I knewthat it wasn't quite right. I
did try one of the things. ThenI went to this other

(06:42):
psychiatrist who had the bigfollow me, and she, she did a
good job, and I went about itthe wrong way. So it went there
first, and then I paid her forthe for her time, which is
probably under bucks orsomething, at that time for me
then. And then I thought, Oh,now I've got this. I'll be able
to go to DBA, I suppose, andthey can deal with it or

(07:03):
whatever. And then they, ofcourse, had the pleasure of
telling me that they can'treimburse me for all that stuff,
and you've gone about itcompletely the right way, and
you can't do this, you can't dothat. And if you so, they sent
me some bonds, which I didn'tanswer typical all this. And
then I went and said, What's thestory? And I said, if you don't
do this, we're not going to dealwith the utility 75 or utility
75 or 65 or whatever. And Isaid, Well, you can stick it up

(07:25):
your jumper, mate in the warpopular vernacular this. And I
went back to life and kept onbanging away. So there was these
attempts then. And then finally,I was doing the I had a
navigator with me who I'd met inanother element, and he was a,
he was an ex Ford observer withthree hour hour in Vietnam. So

(07:48):
he was an art who was very goodat his job. And he was a company
forward observer as a corporal,not as an officer. And he saw a
lot of blows around him getknocked over and things like
that, being in the infantry, andso he was bugging himself, but
he'd use this psychiatrist thatI went to, and he recommended me

(08:08):
to go to see her. And so that'swhere it happened. And he said,
mate, you need help, really. AndI could see from him there were
certain things about him that Isaw him myself. Ah, and he, in
due course, became a navigatorwith me in the 2008 target
Tasmania, which is a big deal,right? Yeah. And I trained him

(08:29):
up, and he came in and did that,and did a good, pretty
reasonable job. And I saw inhim, they again, like in 2003
when I when it first saved me?
Yeah, I saw the impact on him.
It was really good. So I keptthis in my mind before then I'd
already, by that time, I was inthe business of trying to build

(08:50):
a team where we could helpveterans do this. And that
started in 2006 actually goingback couple years before. And he
was my navigator there, and thenI there was actually, it was
actually a two commando regimentguy who inspired me to this idea
of motorsport, helping, helpingpeople. Because he was, he'd
been injured in in Afghanistan,I think end of the ID Nick

(09:14):
Blakes, I think they're in thebush range or something. So he
was a hugely injured or then,but he was, he drove a very fast
deaths in 240 Z and he wassponsored, well, he was
supporting legacy, oh yeah. Andit was really good, and he did
very well. And he had a veteransnavigating for him and stuff
like that. And he was the guythat I got the idea from,

(09:38):
though, let's do that. Let'ssupport something. And then my
original thing was, had a littlebit of at least, if I do this, I
can get sponsors and things likethat. Because he had sponsors.
He had sponsors of legacyhelping him do that so he could
help legacy. And I thought, atleast you could rally for free.

Andy Fermo (09:59):
There's. Is, yeah, motorsports expensive,

Unknown (10:03):
very expensive, right?
So it can be anyway, and anyway,so that's where I first got the
idea, from him, and I alwayscredit him with that
inspiration. And startedmountain road racing and to, you
know, as a team, and it's beensince then, it's taken me all
this time until 2020 22 put thatteam together where it's
actually working done. I've gonedown a fair bit of rabbit holes

(10:24):
and dead ends and had a lot ofrejection, but I'm completely
focused on being the best scoutI am, or get

Andy Fermo (10:35):
enough ones who've been knocked down a few times a
and that's a fair that's

Unknown (10:38):
both applied that thing, yeah. And as a result,
all that persistence has paidoff. So we've got a pretty
working, working model now wherewe're up and running. But the so
I brought up again, I broughtall that marketing experience
and all those other things tomake sure we did that. It's been
very interesting people. Youthink, oh, they'll be right into
this. And because they help,supposedly helping veterans. And

(11:01):
they live in one of the bar ofit, you know, it's just too hard
for them or something. And otherpeople, you think, Oh, they
said, Geez, that's brilliant tome, and

Andy Fermo (11:10):
I love it. Yeah, hold on, see what. Robert, so I
just wanted to pause that for amoment, because there's, there's
been some absolute big nuggetsof gold that you've really
shared in this last sort of 10or 12 minutes or something like
that. And that, the first one Iwant to be able to do is that
spark again, right? So you'veyou mentioned right at the start
there that your personalitytrait was always to be able to

(11:31):
be the best they can be. Andthen at some point, things
started to unravel. This is postmilitary career in whatever it
was. And Yeah, at first, whenyou sought help, it was because
you had immediate support, say,and you use the example of your
wife, that I was doing it forher, I'm going to go and I'm
feeling something. I'm going togo and see someone, because
she's put up with a lot of myshit over the years. I'm going

(11:53):
to go and see someone about itand see if there is now that
connection at first reallywasn't there as much with the
people that those first people,there was some avenues to be
going around. But like I said,is that what I'm picking up is
that you were persistent inbeing able to find someone that
actually did connect with you.
And then in the end, I'm talkingfrom a specialist point of view,

(12:13):
is that this person that was theforward observer that said, Hey,
Lee, go and see someone, becauseyou saw that connection, that
that social connection, wherethat person had very similar
traits in some regards that yougo, I'm respecting that I'm
gonna actually go and seesomeone else about this, which
takes you to that 272 1007 bit,where you were going on having

(12:34):
some help there, but then youwere going about it for your
own, for your own sake, right?
As opposed to, I'm going to doit for someone else. I'm going
to go and do this. Butsimultaneously, there's
something that you found 2003you got sold on the undertaker
tarmac rally sort of thing,where competition side, you had

(12:57):
a small group of people then,very similar to what you were
used to, again, like repurposed,right? So small teams, pursuit
of excellence, highlyspecialized role within that
team, to give you that model,which was then now under, under
the rally, mountain road racing,then you actually had this model
that you needed to work on. Andthen from that 2007 point to

(13:20):
where you are. Let's take it to2022 which couple of years after
that is that the refining right?
And I'm reading between thelines there about unconventional
warfare. It takes a lot of timeto be able to see what works and
see what doesn't. But it's thattrait of wanting to be able to
have that pursuit of excellence,and that personality trait of
why you said before, right atthe start, they look to be

(13:42):
selected in the Special Forces,or with the SAS was looking for
a certain personality of someonethat gets knocked down but is
going to come back up and seehow you're resilient to being
able to do this right. So nowyou've got this model that
you're at and that you're happywith mountain road racing. Now,
you've got a team and a model,you're helping veterans. And

(14:03):
then through racing, this iswhat I'm picking up, is that
through racing, that it has thatsort of sense of healing without
you know, you've got someonethat's a specialist that's
dealing with the specific stuff.
But then through racing and theteam and the model that you've
got now, people are finding thatsense of purpose just like you

(14:24):
have?

Unknown (14:24):
Yeah, I think so, as well documented, I'd like to
actually go back and touch onsomething that I haven't touched
on I was involved with trying toput the team together and work
in a genre where we could do notonly track, not only time out
rally, but track racing withanother car, another gentleman,
there's mate of mine fromessays. But that didn't work out

(14:47):
for a variety of reasons, but soI decided, one time, I was
visiting my son in Albury, and Isaw a sign on the Hume Weir or
something, saying 2250kilometers from the Murray
mouth. And I thought that's along way. And I thought Shit
that'd be worth doing. So Iended up starting to plan
straight away to paddle a seakayak 2450 clicks down the

(15:11):
Murray River, which I did in2021 as a something hard to do,
basically, and was supported bya couple of guys without it as
well, one of whom was a formerclearance diver. We went down
together pretty much the wholeway it was during the covid
time. So we had to do it in twophases. We used to depend on
what the covid rules are. Weused to camp on the other bank

(15:32):
of the state, or something likethat. But anyway, so I ended up
doing all that and got home intime from a 70th birthday. And
that was a, I suppose a lot ofpeople have said, that's a good
achievement. And then we about amonth after that, I was
diagnosed with stage fourcancer, non Hodgkin's lymphoma.

(15:53):
She's Yeah, and so I spent allof 22 with our diagnosis, and
then long treatment and andrecovery from the treatment, in
a sense, all the 22 a bit like,a bit like a lot of people in
the in in history, have thoughtup pretty interesting things
when they've been incarceratedor in hospitals or under the

(16:14):
pump. And then so I managed tore, engage or revisit mountain
road racing and and then so on.
At the end of 22 by then, I'dreset my goals and all that sort
of thing. So that chance a year,I feel like, if I can call it
that, and I was, I'm fine fromthat now, he survived another

(16:34):
one was a sort of like a speedbump in the highway life. So it
took me back. It put me back ayear on my goals. Yeah, so I'm
like, I thought we'll so 23 wastheir inaugural setup year again
for Rejuve the team, and then at24 and 25 instead of 23 and 24
we get now is that is the goalto do this for a two year, two

(16:59):
full season period, yeah, andthen I'll be looking, and I'll
say to all your listeners, I'mlooking for someone to come in
and take over the mantle, takeover the legacy at the end the
next year. And so join up beforethen and train yourself, because
it's a brilliant thing. So I'mlooking for a succession there

(17:19):
so people can take on thelegacy, because it's turned out,
and I always knew this from 2003anyway, it's a brilliant thing
for God who are drifting and whoare recovering from these mental
and physical illnesses, and that

Andy Fermo (17:33):
absolutely, absolutely Robert, and we'll
speak to that with exactly whatyou guys are doing with mountain
road racing and especially thesenext two seasons In a minute,
but

Unknown (17:42):
sorry if I went back there a bit. No, it's good
because it gives

Andy Fermo (17:45):
it very important, and also it gives context as
well to some of the other bits.
And what I picked up off thatpart of the story as well, which
is setting up to that modelwhere you wanted to with
mountain road racing, but havinghaving been diagnosed with
cancer, and then having to livethe cancer year, right? And this
is all during covid andeverything like that. How is it

(18:05):
that the cancer or your trainingand or lived experience, did
that help make you resilient interms of being able to deal with
the cancer, or did that changeyour perspective on how to move
forward with it?

Unknown (18:20):
No, not really. I've got a very proactive viewpoint
on myself. Personally, to me,life is just full of choices.
You can choose to do whatever,from the very bad to the very
good, right? Yeah, but so Ialways put myself on the top of
the list. When I'm thinking ofsomeone to blame. I'd normally
put myself on the top and thenwork down from there. Yeah. Most

(18:40):
people never have their own nameon that list, but so I take full
responsibility for me, and Ispend a lot of time making sure
that that's the case. And sogoing back to the thing about
the thing about the cancer isjust a delay. So my view is it's
a bit like I often use thatanalogy of the story you get an
aircraft, and they say, in asafety brief, when the oxygen

(19:03):
mask comes down, put yours onfirst before you deal with your
son or daughter or your friendor neighbor or whatever. And so
I think this is a very keything. And to me is if you're
not going to look after yourselfand make sure your own health is
the best you can't help anyoneelse. So I have that I use that

(19:25):
analogy because it's easy forpeople to understand. I totally
agree with that one. I use thatmyself. It's a cracker, right?
Yeah, you never has been there,but so that's the first thing.
So the way I then view it isthat what I do is I look for the
very best medical help I canfind. So I say, if I've got a
surgery or illness or something,I say, drop me out your best
specialist that you can find.
And I always work from the topdown. And luckily, if it wasn't

(19:48):
for the DVA, the Gold Card help,which they've been brilliant
for, that I'd be dead long ago,really, because I've got a lot
of things that I've overcome andthank goodness for. Out for the
family as well, but the so whatI do is I look after myself as
best I can, and I don't messaround like check myself all the
time. Even blokes in their 40sand 50s should do this, or even

(20:09):
younger, but certainly in the40s onwards, and regular
checkups and start taking careof themselves, because they
can't help anyone else,including their family, if
they're down the Googlerthemselves, health wise. So the
other thing I do is I then, so Igot the I've got a real medical
army. I call them my medicalarmy. There's various

(20:32):
specialists in there for thisand that, because I've got this
and that wrong with me here. AndI just do whatever they tell me
to do. I don't bring my own egoto the door. And I don't say, Oh
no, I rung up Dr Google. And hesays this, or there's not Dr
Google. A lot of people do that,yeah, absolutely original that.
And so I just do what they tellme they've spent decades being

(20:56):
as good as they are. Make sure Ipick the right ones, and then I
just do what they bloody tellme, and then I get on with my
own life. So I don't try and bethem, or like when I fly on a
plane. I don't need to know allthe avionics and how many rivets
are in the thing. I just need tonotice there's a good chance

(21:16):
that we'll get to the other end,right, not paying the deals,
payment of price. So I'm likethat. So that's one thing I
don't have to worry about. And Ianother thing I mentioned is,
which is very important, Ithink, with the things in
recovery, people in recovery, isI never I try as hard as I
possibly can, and I never spareany emotional energy on things I

(21:37):
can't control. That's a big one,a because most people are
reactive, not proactive. Arethey reactive? And they I'm here
because of the weather of thegovernment or the bloody wife or
the husband or the whatever. Idon't I that way I can clear
myself for the mission. So I Isee life. There's a succession
of problems to solve, and awiser wealthy man once told me.

(22:00):
He said, If you want a biggerincome, you got to find bigger
problems to solve. He said,

Andy Fermo (22:11):
Well, peace, if

Unknown (22:14):
you want to in other words, if you want a more
rewarding life, you got to dothe harder things in life, the
easy stuff doesn't pay muchreward. And

Andy Fermo (22:23):
who, in their right mind would try and paddle to
2400 kilometers, or whatever itis, down the Murray mate in the
middle of covid?

Unknown (22:30):
Some people say it's crazy, but no, I

Andy Fermo (22:32):
reckon that's awesome. I was wanting to do
that on a paddleboard.

Unknown (22:36):
People say, Oh, what was it like? And I said, was it
pretty arduous? But I didn'trealize I had cancer at the
time, so it was getting stuckinto me while I was doing it. So
I guess it's an achievement tobe able to persist and still
achieve the aim. So that's allright, that sort of gives

Andy Fermo (22:50):
me not a war stopper made. It's not a war stopper.
You still paddle the thing evenwith cancer. No, that's fine.
That's right, knocking at thedoor. Now, a

Unknown (22:56):
lot of people had a lot worse, you know, I'm saying. So,
Robert, look, now

Andy Fermo (22:59):
that we've moved there, we've talked about the
cancer and that, that viewpoint,that, and there's a lot of stuff
to what, to that mentalcondition that you're that
you're dealing with, is, okay,yes, I've got it. I've got, I've
got PTSD, or complex PTSD. I'vegone and seen the specialist,
but I'm still going to crack onwith my life, and this is what
we're talking about now, andwhere I really want to start
focusing on with mountain roadracing, because I know that you

(23:22):
mentioned before that you gotthe program, you got the next
two sort of seasons and and I'mjust looking to confirm with the
with your website and youradvisory team, or meeting the
team. You've got a lot in there.
You've got your psychologists,you've got your marketing and
all that. So can you speak tothat a bit more?

Unknown (23:39):
Mate? Yeah. The thing is, what we're doing here is a
difficult thing to do, right? Iknow that because no one else is
doing it, that's usually a goodcombat indicator. So to do that
properly, first of all, first ofall, you need a fair bit of
money for it. In a big business,just not a lot of money, but in
an average bloke on the street,it sounds like a fair bit of

(24:00):
money than it probably is tomost people, because these
things are not cheap to go into,but it's extremely rewarding.
It's worth the candle sort ofthing, yeah, but to get that
money, I've got to I spend mostof my time as team principal
talking to prospective sponsorsand sponsors, and we're
privately funded, fullyphilanthropic 100% and not for

(24:23):
profit. So we don't, there's nocolor TV sets taken to heaven or
anything like that. So we don'temploy any staff. We're just
taking on a bookkeeper now,because that what this means to
run a run a thing like thatsuccessfully, you've got to run
it as a business, yes, yes, 100%so a lot of people are not
familiar with that side of it,because being running a

(24:46):
business, a small business,effectively, is not easy for
most people. It's certainly noteasy for me, because I get a
whole bunch of components ifyou're going for a time at rally
in Victoria or Tasmania orsomething like that from
Queensland, but you got you.
Veterans on the crew and allthat. You got a lot of moving
bits in this. And these guys,they transport there, they they
get involved with it and stop,like a day trip, like most of

(25:08):
the esos that you see, a lot ofthings are what I call day
trips, because that's for a fewhours. It might be a good,
interesting exercise, but it'sjust for a few hours. It gives
you a bit of a memory. Andthat's all very well, but this
is experiential. This is a sortof a life changing or it can be
a life changing activity, whichyou can take into further

(25:30):
activity. So that's what I knowit is. And it's underwater from
Queensland. You got operation,you got finance, you got HR,
you've got transport, you've gotaccommodation, all of these
things, and someone's got to payfor all of that. So on the prime
driver or one of the cars, we'venow got two, two cars, another
owner, driver with us, withanother Alfa Romeo 147 GTA,

(25:50):
which is a brilliant so there'stwo of us involved. That means,
and when we go away, we overloadour team. You don't need all
these people for these sort ofevents, but we overlaid our team
so we'll have a so the navigatoris a veteran, the crew chief is
a veteran, and the four servicecrew guys, these men and women,
were all new positions, andthey're all veterans, right? And

(26:14):
you don't need them all.
Sometimes there's not much forthem to do at this time. But I,
but my biggest word I've I'vecome to grips with, here is the
word I like most about all ofthis stuff, is engage. Engage.
Now, because most guys, most menand women who are suffering,
then many women are sufferingthe same. Oh, of course they

(26:37):
are, yeah, and most of them intheir recovery journey, and it's
a journey. It's not adestination. In their recovery
journey in the bunker, theydon't want to talk to people,
they don't want to, they'retrying to cope. They don't
engage with life, a lot of it,and when they do, they make
mistakes because they're notsupported, or all sorts of
things. And so they get back inthe bunker, stay in the bunker,

(26:58):
and just pretend to be whateverthey think they should be. So
this is all about coming out ofthe bunker and engaging. So here
they are. They they're on thistrip away from Mum for more than
a day, five to six days, orsomething like that. I don't say
that flippantly, but sometimesdifficult for people in recovery
to think of these things, andthey're all of a sudden, they're

(27:22):
in an uplifting environment,right? So they're surrounded by
other submiss Mostly just metalcities, but civilian people. But
all of these people are in theirown life. They're all in the
pursuit of excellence. So it's avery uplifting thing. And the
rallying group in motorsport inparticular is very friendly.
They help each other. Theyracing is a little bit different

(27:42):
track racing. You don't comenear my engine because you must
find out what secrets I've gothere. You stay away from my pit
area. But I don't mean thatentirely, but not the low, lower
level so much. But certainly inrally, it's very Can I give you
a hand with that, mate? And it'sa very military style of place,
in a sense, and

Andy Fermo (28:01):
it sounds like it's very resource, the resourceful
nurse as well. I'm picking upthose tones as well. Yeah,

Unknown (28:07):
you're working in small teams with our crew and stuff
like that. You with like mindedpeople or veterans in the crew
and stuff like that. They're allin their different levels of
journey. Some are, you know,they could be disabled in some
way, as long as they can walkaround and maybe pick up a
spinner and tell a joke thatthat's good enough for us, and
as long as they can try to fitin that, but they will fit in

(28:30):
because it's a very upliftingenvironment, seeing the pursuit
of exits and all these other aresurrounded by all these people
in these rally events, right?
It's a very it's verytherapeutic in a way, because
it's like being back in themilitary, whatever the service
they were, or job they were.
It's not about special forces,by the way. So we're we're just
about ready to rock and roll inthe Time Out West, over there,

(28:53):
in this and as it turns out,we're going to have all access
those veterans as a one off, ina sense, because we're supported
by the regiment, to resourcesfund and so on as so that's
really good. I'm very glad aboutthat, and I'll get with a lot of
old mates and all that sort ofstuff as well. Yeah, but it's
for all services. It's for menand women. It's for ABLE

(29:13):
disabled. And this businessabout engaging is what it's all
about. And I find, same as Ifound with myself that it's a
very Oh, wow. This is good. Thisis terrific. And even if there's
not much to do with servicecrews, supporting the crew chief
is like a leadership position,like a section commander or
patrol commander, or think he'sgot to look after his guys there

(29:37):
and make sure they're all allgood. Everyone's looking after
each other's back, just likemilitary, right? So I think it's
a, I don't think I know thatit's a really good thing to do.
Now, the other big one is itdoesn't cost them anything to do
it. Wow. That's

Andy Fermo (29:51):
amazing. And when you say, does it cost them
anything to do it? Is that likethem rocking up and then doing
those bits there? So theyvolunteer. We

Unknown (29:58):
rock them up. We rock.
Them up. We'll fly them fromcapital city to capital city, if
the things in Victoria. We flythem from Brisbane or Adelaide
or wherever they might comefrom, and get them to Melbourne.
We get them picked up the partof the crew. We can accommodate
them. We even give themallowance so they start while
they're with us. They could gothere and spend none of their
own money, if they wanted to,they can spend as much as they

(30:21):
like, course, but they don'thave to. They're fully
accommodated. So if you were tooutsource one of these events
for a person, in other words, ifthat person said, Oh, I'd like
to go on something like that,was it going to cost me? But
probably, if you could find anoutsourcing company which would
do this, they'd probablycharging him somewhere between
four and 6000 bucks for theprivilege right to do the same

(30:43):
stuff. So we has got it to thegot it down to where we can
pretty much do this from. AndI'm saying this in terms of
people out there who might be inyour listeners who'd like to
support us. We're coming in ataround about less than off from
less than 2000 the veteran forthat experience, which he
doesn't pay for, right? Yeah,it's bang for your buck, big

(31:04):
time. It's really good, and it's

Andy Fermo (31:07):
interesting. I do be able to do that, because
obviously you've put a lot oftime and effort, and there's a
lot of money going into theprograms of what you're doing,
not attempting to do you'redoing it right? And you've got
these the target races that arecoming in, and you're looking
for people to be able to be partof this experiential thing
that's going on, right, and aspart of a team. So there's a

(31:28):
couple of layers about this. Andso with our audience that are
listening in, when they hearthese what's actually the
dollar? Let's talk about brasstax and the dollar value. It
costs money to get them there,but for someone to be who is
wanting to have thatexperiential thing to in their
own journey of recovery and ormanagement of their condition,

(31:51):
whether it's physical or mental,is they're getting a team that
is part of it. It's a veryuplifting team that helps them.
You don't need to talk about anyof this stuff, but you've got
this commonality, one, theracing, and then two, whether
you're you've been in a veteranor a first responder, I'm
assuming, as well, with how theycome in. So they commit to it,

(32:11):
but the commitment is thatcommitment to the journey that
gives them what they're doingand you're coming along and
knowing this value that comesin, because it's not free and
it's not cheap to get there, isthat, that that's being covered,
right? But then for someone whohas an immense benefit of the
moving forward from thatexperience that really helps

(32:33):
them in terms of it, you know,numb talk, they say, if they've
dva, you're doing a vocationalrehabilitation program. And
there's some amazing ones outthere. But this one is also
helping out rides. If this ishelping someone to get back onto
the perch, get back in the gameand be engaged with life,
getting out of the bunker, so tospeak. That is much more

(32:54):
valuable in terms of monetarywise, that $2,000 investment of
what it's costing in that backwhat's happening in the
background for them, movingforward, pro life, being engaged
and going on to do differentthings and challenging
themselves in the pursuit of ofexcellence, whatever that might
be for them, is massive.

Unknown (33:16):
Yeah, that's right.
Even one of the things on thewebsite there, which is mountain
road racing.au. Yes, one of thethings you see there is some of
the jobs there, and including inNavigator and crew chief and
service crews, they list whatthese sort of guys do, yes. But
also there's, there's a slotthere for officials, right? So
someone might not, they mightsay, What would mine beneficial?
Because officials are the otherstructure behind these events,

(33:40):
and most of them are volunteers.
But when they volunteer, forexample, for the mount Baldwin
sprint, which we're going towith two cars in 2627 or block
type, down in Victoria, there'sgoing to be, there's going to be
a few 100 officials there, andthey're most just about all of
them are volunteers, but theyget looked after. They get

(34:03):
accommodated. So it's a realexperience for them. Now, so
these officials, so that we willhelp train up guys as well for
if they'd like to be anofficial. Now, these officials,
for example, as you'rementioning there, could go all
the way to becoming a FormulaOne official being flown around

(34:23):
the world doing Formula One ifthey wanted to, if they wanted
to Baden up. Because there's alot, it's sort of like being a
me an umpire or somebody in thefooty match for kids end up
doing the grand final in the MCG

Andy Fermo (34:36):
or something.
There's pathways andopportunities that are, yeah,

Unknown (34:39):
luckily, I've really satisfying, interesting, really
interesting stuff, and it couldgo international if they wanted
it. So that's what we offer interms of just artists. So what
we're not trying to do is, andsome people have asked me this,
I'll just mention what we're nottrying to do is get a few guys
and train them up and make themgood at. This time at rally. So

(35:01):
by and large, in theory, guysjust get one gig. Because what
we want to do is look after 100guys in a year, 80 guys in a
year, or something like that, asmoney, as many as we can do,
rather than have a few guys whodo a number of gigs. Sure,
because that's not to me, that'snot a very efficient way to
because what we're trying to dois get the people to engage, and

(35:24):
they will engage, and some willengage more than others. It
depends on where they are ontheir journey, and they can,
we'll get them into other teamsso they want another gig.
There's always teams are lookingfor navigators and service
crewed and guys to be involved.
And it's a fantasticenvironment, right? And so I
couldn't be more positive, asyou can tell,

Andy Fermo (35:44):
yeah, that's amazing. And really, that model
that you've got going on at themoment as well, what that
allows, if you're thinking aboutusing like the mountain road
raising and the tarnack rallyplatform, to be able to in your
journey, if that was somethingof interest to you to explore,
you could do it as thatexperiential once off and then
from a point of view that youguys are doing, right? So the

(36:05):
more people that you're gettingthrough, they're going to get
that experience. Because whatthey take away from it is that
engagement, to be able to dothings, what it with, whatever
they're doing. However, there'salso pathways, if you were right
into it, that you could go, Hey,actually, this might be
something for me, and then Imight explore this in other
ways. And then the pathway younever know, like you mentioned

(36:25):
before, is you could go frombeing an official here to
somewhere in that top tier ofracing. That's not out of the
realms, right? But what it is,it's enabling someone to go,
Hey, I'm going to repurposemyself. And this is of something
of interest, if I want to comeback. Yeah, great. But if not, I
had a great experience here. Itwas over multiple days, not just

(36:46):
a couple of hours, that I got tobe able to be part of the team.
Again, I'm an enabled I wassurrounded by positive and
uplifting people, and then I wasalso engaged. During that time,
I was engaged, then now I couldgo off now, and maybe I might
want to paddle 2400 kilometersin a fitted boat, I don't know.
Give them

Unknown (37:05):
confident. Give them confidence.

Andy Fermo (37:07):
Yeah, grab to buy the balls.

Unknown (37:08):
Yeah, yeah. I'm not finished yet. I can still talk
to people, yeah. And boy, andthose people I met at that do
there, they were fascinating,because they're doing all this
stuff, and they're not veterans.
They, you know, they they'vebuilt businesses, they've done
all sorts of things, and peoplethat we mix with in these
events, they really respect us,they really respect veterans,
and they love talking to ourguys, and so it's a real good

(37:29):
environment. The other thing I'dsay is that our team
psychologist is not a clinicalpsychologist, per se. He's a
sports performance psychologist,yes. So he works with institutes
of sports and those sort ofthings, and he's a real part of
the team. I talk to him everyweek. He's part of the planning
deal. And what we do is we'regathering a little bit of data.

(37:50):
It's all anonymous, but we'redoing this so we can prove this
in terms of medical issue. Youknow how engaging and suitable
it is. And in fact, we just,we've just set up an agreement
with the University ofQueensland, which is really
important this, and they've gota, like, a PhD type student
who's doing all the researchwith us, and they'll embed with

(38:14):
the team, and we'll go away andstart writing reports and thesis
is on this sort of aspect of,you know, brilliant how
efficient this is for guys inrecovery.

Andy Fermo (38:25):
You know, absolutely. And then that's
really great. We're not missing

Unknown (38:29):
around as fully on business as we're doing it
properly. There's no it's notjust a jolly. I don't need to go
rallying. I've done six targetTasmanians. I've done a shed
full of majors. So I don't needit, but it gives me a great
pleasure to be able to helpthese guys, men and women, and
the ones that we've donealready, in three rallies that
we've done so far, is justbrilliant. So it's really good

Andy Fermo (38:53):
to the metrics behind that is you've got the
three rallies behind that now,and you've got that sort of
formula to be able to get thatexperiential feedback. You know
it works. You're gettingfeedback. You've got a study on
it that's happening, to be ableto at least put what you're
getting back into that sort ofstatistical and data point of

(39:13):
view. That's evidence based,right? So evidence based, you
come back, not saying, Oh, Ijust reckon it works. It's
literally, this is the data andmetrics behind

Unknown (39:20):
it. There's actually plenty of written about this,
about extreme sports,motorsports being very good for
veterans in recovery around theworld, and particularly UK and
USA. There's not much Sweden inAustralia terms. So we're on the
cutting edge of that with UQnow. So that's going to be
brilliant. The other thing isthat we're just to reiterate or

(39:44):
enhance what you're saying therebefore we're not that's why we
called it initially, veteransinto motorsport, but we call it
veterans in motorsport now. Wejust changed their the program
title a little bit, becausethese guys can go on and. Only
get involved with activity.
Motorsport in Australia issomething like a $12 billion
business. Well, that's huge. Youare. It's huge, right? So in

(40:09):
other words, when I say thatthere's all these different
components of the motor, whatindustry of all sorts of things,
from engineering to topsychology, to all sorts of
things, activities, generationof this and that, and support
the physical everything. Sothere's a lot of employment
opportunities. Therefore, ifthey and we're a car country,

(40:30):
everyone and so it makes a lotof sense to me that this is a
real Avenue people can get intoif they'd like to, but if the
if, at the very least, theycheck it out and and they can do
that on the website, the goingon the website, they can hit the
sign me up button to say theirname and their phone number and

(40:53):
their email or something likethat, and say, I'd like to be
something like a navigator orcrew chief or something, or it
just service crew, that'd begreat. And then they submit
that. I get an email straightaway. Then I get in touch with
them on the phone. But my phonenumber's on their website. Yep,
I can tell it to you now if

Andy Fermo (41:13):
you Yeah, absolutely, yeah. So, so, just
so that we could bring you, Ican ring

Unknown (41:17):
them whatever 24/7 Robert's

Andy Fermo (41:20):
away, or maybe what, 24/7 So Robert, with that, with
the program. How, having saidthat, how were the touch points
to be able to get in contactwith you, or one of the teams at
Mountain racing? So let's startwith the website, and then go
from there.

Unknown (41:36):
Yeah. So the website is ww.of, course, mountain road
racing. One word, mountain roadracing, because that's what we
see race through mountains,right? Yeah. So mountain road
racing.au, there's no com inthere, just IU, I've gone to the
dark side. So.au.au, yeah. Sothat's the website, and

(41:56):
generally it's reasonablyupdated. I get a bit way laid
with this 100 things. Sosometimes it needs a little bit
of updating at the moment, butit generally is, if you give you
a real good picture as youprobably looked at it, yeah,
yes, absolutely. And it's not abad one. There's a lot of
information there. And along theway, there's these little sign
me up buttons you'll see comeup, especially when you're

(42:17):
looking at the crew jobs andthings like that. And it's
simply a matter of just click onthat, and then, a little, like a
preliminary the expression ofinterest comes up, in a sense,
where you just say, Oh, this ismy name, this is my phone
number, this is my email. Ithink it includes email, but you
and then says, and then you cantick a box to be, you know,

(42:40):
considered for this or that, orthis or that, the crew chief or
navigator or and so we trainnavigators, so that's an
exciting thing for people toactually want to be in the car,
yeah, rocketing around theplace, but fully trained with
all the goods and bits andpieces. They don't have to
provide their own gear with allof that's provided to them and

(43:01):
the crew chiefs and the servicecrews and all that. It's all
it's on the job training aswell, but we run courses for
navigators and things like that.
Yeah. So, and then as soon asthey go submit, they can fill it
out, but they got to push thesubmit button. So I remember a
lot of guys are feeling thatthat, and they didn't push
submit. So I had to ring them upagain and say, Hey, push submit.
So when you push them in, thenthat automatically sends an

(43:24):
email to me, saying, oh, FredSmith has indicated like to be
involved or whatever. And then Igive him a ring, or one of the
managers gives him a ring andsays, hey, here you go. What's
your story? Has a bit of a quickconversation, gives them a
chance to ask questions of usand things like that. And so we
have a bit of that, and wefigure it out now. So we've got

(43:47):
different rallies, differenttimes they might not be
available, so some people mightbe still working, because our
target audience, really, for allof this, is the if I can say
this is a younger veteran fromSomalia, Timor, Iraq,
Afghanistan and onwards, becausethey're the guys that are, well,
there's a lot of guys sufferingfrom the last 20 years or so,

(44:09):
and that they're our targetaudience, old guys like me. Most
of us are running out of path,right? If I find another elderly
teenager like myself who's stillrocking and rolling. Yeah,
there's nothing wrong with thembeing there as well. But by and
large, our target audience forthe guys we're most interested
in is our current sort of

Andy Fermo (44:28):
youngest engaging, yeah, engaging, that, uh,
contemporary veteran community,Yep,

Unknown (44:35):
yeah, yeah. So some are still working, you know, the
then a lot of them are stillgot, you know, families and
things like that. And some ofthem are a bit older, or they're
not working anymore, or they've,you know, retired, uh,
medically, or so, oh, come asSo, some of them, especially the
guys that are working, theymight have to get time off or
something like that, or getapproval from their families

(44:56):
even, or some of that for thetime. But. Generally, for most
of the rallies, we do a two dayweekend affairs. But you got to
get there. You got to prepare.
You got to, if you navigator,you got to go there and get
involved with reconnaissance andall sorts of things. So it might
be, generally, for most people,it's about a five day trip away
from your state. And so, yeah,it's just, it's just a brilliant

(45:21):
thing. You got me on my favoritetopic now so I can,

Andy Fermo (45:27):
yeah, that's it. So, Robert, so just so that it's
clear for myself in theaudience. Days, if someone's
wanting to be able to engage inone of the rallies that you guys
do, and there's severalthroughout the year, even if you
are working, or you might bemedically retired, whatever your
situation is that the commitmentwould be, say five to seven days

(45:48):
for a rally. In reality that youneed to, Okay, put in for

Unknown (45:52):
leave weekend, because it's over a weekend as well. So
fine for business days, yeah, so

Andy Fermo (45:57):
over a weekend. So just say an extended, long
weekend. So to say that they'resigning on, sign me up as a
that's my commitment for thisexperiential activity. I'm going
to go somewhere. So whether I'mworking or medically retired, or
whatever the situation is, atsome point you're knowing, okay,
if I've signed on the line,you're going to know the dates
well in advance. That works foryou. Then you're going to be

(46:19):
flown out. Or if it's in yourstate, that's the commitment of
the days for that experientialactivity, and then in whatever
role and capacity that you guysare doing. So then that way it's
giving them that's something tolook forward to as well. So if
you have to wait for a rally togo in, that's something to look
forward to. And as far, they maynot be

Unknown (46:39):
available for the next one or something, because at
work or the family or whateverthat's they're on our list, but
we're always trying to pull upour list for our rallies, so
they're just in the list, and ifthey can't do the first one,
they'll probably be right forthe second. That happens from
time to time. It's inevitableyou might not be available for
whatever reason, for one or theother, but along the way,

(47:01):
there's going to be anopportunity for you if you want
it then. So I would suggest thatthe main thing is people check
out the website. They can ringme straight away. They don't
have to even sign up. They canjust see my phone number there
the team principal and give me aring.

Andy Fermo (47:16):
And are you on social media as well? Robert,
yeah, so, so

Unknown (47:20):
we're going to mountain road racing page on Facebook,
yep. But also I'm down as downas my my main Facebook page is
my personal one is Robertgilsby. They're more than
welcome to contact me throughthere. My avatar actually is me
in the race suit under the mountBulla sign with a glass of
champagne in my hand.

Andy Fermo (47:41):
Of course, it's with the champagne, right? And
because there's an

Unknown (47:43):
old Russian saying, a risk, no champagne,
that's, that's,I thought that was, that was a
good day. But the thing is, withus anyway, we're not trying to
be on the podium or anythinglike that. There's no issue of
risk there at all, really. Wecover all the risks. I'm very
experienced with the cometrallies and so on. Some of our
guys, everything is just aterrific just everything taken

(48:04):
care of and and just get outthere and have a crack and see
how to look yourself. And theman, you could open up all new
wells for you if you wanted itto

Andy Fermo (48:16):
Amazing. Amazing.
Robert, so just in in closing,you mentioned you're going to be
here in in WA and so that mightbe a little bit close from the
time of recording for the andyou're obviously here for the
for the anniversary. But whatare the upcoming ones? Because
our episodes gonna be, what arethe upcoming ones following for
to the year's end?

Unknown (48:36):
And so anybody over in the West, there's a tarmac
rally. The tarmac West iscalled, they used to be called
Target West. And that's onbetween the 12th and the 15th of
September. And please come upand say hello to us. There'd be
a whole bunch of veterans there.
We got two, two cars in the inone category, which is a
category where they it's not afull competition sort of car,

(48:58):
the cage and all that my so mycar is fully caged up at 600
kilometers an hour, cap on theopen entry and things like that.
So that's a full on Drive. Andthe the other two cars are an AC
a Shelby Cobra. I see the Cobrareplica, which is bit flash, and
then a big Batman looking car,stingway, Black Corbett,

(49:21):
Stingray, left hand drive, yeah.
So they'll be nice there, sowe'll all be there, and be great
to see anybody that comes up tous and say, Hey, listen, I
listened to Andy fermo, and hereI am. And what is this? What you
Blake should doing? So anyone inthe Perth area during that time?
It's based out of those CBD inPerth. So it's Langley park

(49:41):
there. Sure it's easy to findus. And you got my phone number
from the website. You can ringme anytime. Then the other one,
the next one, the cab off therank is mountain sprint. So
we're going up to the resort inMelbourne, which is some of the
steepest roads in Australia todrive on, and we'll have our
second car there now. Cool. Mycar is called car alpha, and the

(50:02):
other car is called car Romeo.
So alpha, and both alpha Romeos,yeah, and so we'll have two cars
there. So we're actually lookingfor to fill it up with a crew,
with the crew, so there's sixguys in each crew, which are
veterans. So there's 12 guys inthat one event. We'll be able to
help amazing, amazing and Imean, and by the way, if nothing

(50:26):
else, so go away with our Tshirt and cap and all that sort
of stuff. And that'll be on ourring and back list. And so
there'll be other things to dolater on. We've got, we've got
plans in the future, actually,not just in in tarmac rally, but
maybe endurance motorbikeexplorations, and,

Andy Fermo (50:45):
oh, maybe, yeah, think desert race or something
like that.

Unknown (50:48):
Some, also some snow training, adventure stuff. Um,

Andy Fermo (50:52):
watch this space. Or I may, I reckon that there's,
there's a lot there. And if, ifwe could, would so the the
invites absolutely extended outinto our networks. If you've got
the the social media tiles thatwe could share, can you please
share them to me, but thank youso much, mate for coming on onto
the to the show and guestingwhat sharing your story, and

(51:16):
then also the amazing work thatyou're doing now with mountain
road racing, because I reckonit's a shit hot way to be able
to get our veterans re engagedand give them some possible
pathways to be able to have somegrowth during their journey.
Thank you so much.

Unknown (51:29):
Yeah, I find that just one thing also not to have the
last word at all, but the youhave to have another last word
after this,

Andy Fermo (51:36):
you're right mate, you can have the last word.

Unknown (51:38):
The thing is that I find, I find that a lot of
veterans who are in recovery,they literally don't put their
hand up right. There's still inthe bucket. They don't know,
I'll have a look. Maybe theydon't put the hand up. So for
guys in the in the in that sortof situation, I would just
commend to them that they justgive me a ring and they can ask
questions and do their duediligence and do all that stuff

(52:01):
they don't have to submit on thewebsite if they don't want to.
We're in the self Higher Selffire business. People can.
People can do what they like.
They can take as much territoryas they like. They can get
involved with us on the team aswell. That's the other thing.
Yeah, they can be part of ourteam and and be part of the
organization of arranging forall the other guys. And some

(52:23):
people might say this is allvery nice, but it's not for me,
but they might know someone whowould really love it. And so
let's get the information outthere and get the guys in
because it's tremendous,absolutely

Andy Fermo (52:37):
mate. Well, thank you very much. That was a
perfect last word, so I'm notgoing to add to that. It was a
great way to be able to finishoff the episode. Mate, thank you
so much. Updates.

Unknown (52:47):
Mate, all the best.
Take care.

Claire Fermo (52:52):
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S05E20 - Robert Kilsby (ex SAS & Mountain Road Racing) pt2

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}S05E20 - Robert Kilsby (ex SAS & Mountain Road Racing) pt2