S05E22 - Gillian Yates (Incite Solutions Group) VocRehab pt2

In Part 2 and final episode of Invisible Injuries season 5, Andy Fermo continues his conversation with Gillian Yates, diving deeper into the rehabilitation journey for veterans and first responders. The episode explores how Insight Solutions Group customises its approach to help clients overcome psychosocial barriers like social isolation. Gillian explains that recovery often starts with small steps, like casual meetups for coffee or walks, where veterans are encouraged to reconnect with others and begin re-engaging with their community.

A key theme is empowerment—helping individuals take control of their lives again after years of military service or first responder roles where they were always told what to do. The conversation highlights the importance of giving clients the opportunity to make decisions and set their own goals, with Gillian emphasising that rehabilitation is about “doing” rather than just reflecting.

The episode also covers vocational rehabilitation, where the focus shifts to preparing clients to return to the workforce. Gillian explains how vocational assessments help determine whether veterans need additional training or can repurpose their existing skills for civilian jobs. 

The episode concludes with a discussion on the first responder community, particularly WA Police, where stigma around seeking help is slowly diminishing as mental health issues are openly acknowledged and supported within the organisation.

Key Takeaways | Insight

1. Start Small, Build Confidence | Rehabilitation starts with small steps, like casual meetups to break isolation.
2. Customized Recovery Plans | Each rehabilitation plan is tailored to individual needs and interests.
3. Empowering Veterans | Veterans learn to take control of their lives after being used to military orders.
4. Rehabilitation is About “Doing” | Progress is made by taking action, not just reflecting on past experiences.
5. Vocational Rehabilitation Focus | Helping veterans re-enter the workforce through training or repurposing skills.
6. Civilianization Challenges | Veterans must adapt to less structured civilian work environments.
7. Soft Communication Skills | Direct military communication styles need softening in civilian settings.
8. Work Trials | Veterans can try new jobs through work trials before fully committing.
9. Support in First Responder Communities | WA Police are becoming more open to mental health support without stigma.
10. Evolving Purpose | The goal is to help veterans evolve, not discard, their military experiences.

Contact -  Gillian Yates
Website: https://www.incitesolutions.com.au/
Help Lines Open Arms (VVCS) | Lifeline | RedSix app

"RESPECT, NO POLITICS, WE'RE VOLUNTEERS"

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Episode Transcript

Claire Fermo (00:04):
I welcome to invisible injuries podcast aimed
at bettering the wellbeing andmental health of veterans, first
responders and their immediatesupport experiencing post
traumatic stress by sharing thestories of the lived experiences
of our peers, the support staffand the clinicians. It's our aim

(00:25):
to make sure we can have ameaningful connection with our
audience and give them the ideasfor their own self care plan. If
you do like what you're hearing,subscribe to the channel and
share it with your friends.
Lastly, these stories may be atrigger for your post traumatic
stress. If your PTSD istriggered, we have links to

(00:46):
support in the description. Orif it's immediate, please call
lifeline on 1311, 14. Here'syour host, Andy fermo,

Andy Fermo (01:03):
so we've got the process for the rehabilitation
process. Have we covered a bitof that? Someone's ready. Now
let's go along that line there,someone's ready. You've done
your little checks there.
Someone's gone away if theyweren't ready, and now they're
ready. They said, Oh, you'reready for this, this to do, to
do some work in a rehabilitationprogram. Yes, it's a bit scary,

(01:25):
but I'm willing now to do somework. Where to from here.

Unknown (01:33):
Great question, where to depends on where they want to
go. And if that is a little bitvague and hazy, then potentially
I jump into the driver's seatfor a little bit and take a bit
more control, be a bit moreassertive with what the options
might be until that person isready to jump back in the

(01:53):
driver's seat. Typically, westart with Psychosocial
Rehabilitation, and specificallylooking at a couple of
activities that will help toovercome whatever psychosocial
barrier that person is facing.
So a typical barrier that wesee, which I mentioned before,
is social isolation. They'veleft the community, the fold,

(02:15):
the mateship of the military,and now there's nothing. And
oftentimes what we see is areluctance to engage with the ex
service community. For whateverreason, I typically find that
there's that initial reluctanceto engage and ultimately welcome
it with open arms, but typicallya real reluctance to potentially

(02:40):
leave the house, try somethingnew, connect with civilian
people, and so it doesn't reallyleave a lot of opportunity for
connection. So we look ataddressing that first. And it
may be that, you know, a smallone on one or small group type

(03:02):
environment might be the bestfit first or even online
options. You know, if communityengagement in person is not
possible, but slowly but surely,looking to tackle that
psychosocial barrier of socialisolation and promote
connection. And just in thesessions that we have, it's a

(03:26):
lot of talking, it's a lot oflooking at where somebody's at
in terms of achieving theirgoals and plotting the next
steps to address the next goalor work towards that original
goal that is social connection,we try and demedicalise the
service that we run. So it's notabout being a clinical service

(03:49):
or a real sterile kind ofservice. It's about being real
life and potentially going for awalk and talk meeting or meeting
at a cafe, having a coffee. Andin all of that, you know that
person's having to leave thehouse, is having to navigate,
ordering a coffee and talking tosomebody at the counter and then

(04:14):
engage with us. And

Andy Fermo (04:17):
that's really interesting, that you're saying
that Joe, because those littleprocesses there when someone's
not in a state, whatever thatmight be for them, and it's
preventing them from leaving thehouse and they're feeling
isolation. Those little stepsare massive, massive for people
when they leave the house, whenwe're going to do, I'm going to

(04:38):
go and do an activity now, mightbe walking and talking, but then
they might get in the head. I'dlove to talk about my problems
and all this. And the thing is,when you're actually and from
seeing so many different groupsthat are providing this, let's
walk and talk or coffee catchup. So there's many out there.
It's a lot of the organizersthat only they just rock up. I
think that that feeling ofsafety, of being. Able to say,

(05:00):
Yeah, okay, cool, such and suchis a new person. Welcome. You
don't need to. It's just aboutbeing introduced to new people.
Okay? But we're going to behere. You want to order your
coffee. What is it that you'vegot people of being of service?
And then you go, I don't needyou to talk about your ailment
or whatever you're goingthrough. It's just okay. We've,
we've got something in commonhere that's doing this, but

(05:21):
we've actually got an activity.
It's through an activity basedthat we can actually go and do
something, whether it's walkingand being fit, if you're able to
do that and have some mindfulmovement, or starting to
socially engage by havingconversations with people. And
there's a lot that you can findout from that. Actually, I'm not
in that social isolation bubblethat I thought it was Yeah,

(05:41):
because we are going through thesame thing through conversation,
yeah, yeah,

Unknown (05:46):
absolutely, yeah, totally. And a big part of our
role in guiding somebody throughthis rehab process is to
understand what sorts ofcommunity activities are on
offer.

Andy Fermo (05:59):
Could you give me some typical ones? Then you've
got so many, we talked touchedon to it. We've got, like, a
walking group or, yeah, or acoffee catcher. People are
varied interests. So what aresome of the interests there that
we could then, I

Unknown (06:12):
suppose, in terms of that, just that walking and
coffee that might be the waythat we as the rehab provider
connect with the individual, sothat that might not be the
psychosocial activity, per se,but it's still working towards
achieving that goal ofaddressing their social
isolation. But it's a safe spacewhere we know the background.

(06:34):
We've already done that initialrehabilitation assessment with
them. We know what the goalsare, and like, go out, meet them
for a coffee, and we're lookingat, okay, what are we doing to
address this goal? Yeah, how?
What sort of building blocks arewe going to put in place to do
this? And this is where thecommunity activities come into
play. So it might be that I helpthis person by doing a meet and

(06:58):
greet with an organization.
Let's say your organization, forexample, where you provide yoga
services to veterans. So wemight do a meet and greet with
you. Or there's a lovelyorganization connected by that
focus on building surfboardswith veterans, but also non

(07:21):
veterans alike. So civilianpeople, and they've got a space
where anyone can go and knock upthe surfboard in weeks, months.
They could take a year to do it.
And in doing that, there's asort of small group environment
that's established there. Indoing that, they get to focus on

(07:43):
their wood they're buildingsurrounded by other people.
Whether they want to talk tothose people or not is up to
them, but the opportunity forthe social connection is there
in a safe space.

Andy Fermo (07:58):
Yeah. And so going to that bit where you said, when
you know, with you doing yourcoffee catch up and walking,
that's almost like the meetingme halfway is that you're I'm
taking the time to meet you at alocation, and you're coming to
meet me here, but then we'rewalking together. We're walking
down the path, navigator anddriver walking down the path.
Then to see what it is that'smost likely as a what I'm

(08:19):
hearing is that as an OT thatyou can't read people's minds.
And by saying, Hey, this is theblanket thing that we send
everyone to. Isn't really acustom or class of bespoke to
their needs, yeah. And it's allreally needs based, which adds
an element of difficulty to it,because then you can't just go.
It's not one size fits all, no.
And then, and then these otheractivities that are coming in,
and they're more activities,enhancing opportunities is a big

(08:42):
one, isn't it? That word thatyou've said a few times as well
is that the opportunity forsomeone to do it is like leading
the horse to the water baitexactly

Unknown (08:54):
you take, yes, exactly Yeah, and if somebody is so I
guess the picture I've paintedthere is potentially somebody
that is really tentative, quiteavoidant, really hasn't got many
skills to do their own research.
They're not in a place wherethey can access the skills to be
able to come up with their ownideas about what they want to

(09:17):
do. So there's a little bit moreguidance. There a little bit
more support, but I'm alwaysworking towards, again, being
strengths based and promotingsomebody to take charge of their
own life. This can be achallenge for some people, where
they've been in a militaryenvironment, and they've been
told what to do for a decade,for two decades, they've been

(09:39):
told what to do, where to be,what time to turn up, what to
wear, so they don't realize thatwhen they leave that they now
have full control,

Andy Fermo (09:52):
empowered by choice, or disabled by choice. Too

Unknown (09:55):
much it can be completely overwhelming,
paralysis from over analysis orfrom two. Much absolutely
decision paralysis, get whattime to get up in the morning,
what to wear. Basically,

Andy Fermo (10:08):
here's the snooze button. Any consequences today
that's

Unknown (10:13):
no longer being able to train physically at the level
that they once did, and so nosort of exercise happens, and
there's this real snowballeffect. I've always got that in
the back of my mind, and alwayslooking to one, meet, meet
somebody where they are, buttwo, I guess, push, push them a

(10:36):
little to regain control. Sothat might be doing a bit of
research into what sort of artgroups there might be in their
local area, and then going alongto said art group to check it
out, to do some recon and see ifit's going to be suitable recon.

(11:00):
Hey,

Andy Fermo (11:01):
yeah, I like it. So she's talking the language.
Yeah? Awesome. Jill, yeah, theRecon is important.

Unknown (11:08):
It is important, yeah, and we might be able to
facilitate that process forpeople and do the meet and
greet, or let somebody do thaton their own. And maybe it's a
good fit, maybe it isn't a goodfit, but being able to make that
decision and feel empowered tomake that decision is huge. Once
that decision has been madeabout what activity is actually

(11:31):
going to be helpful for thatperson and address that
underlying psychosocial barrier,it's about doing it, not talking
about it now, actually doing it,jumping in and in terms of, you
know, My professionalbackground, I have a strong
belief that the therapy is aboutthe doing, the doing. Yes, yes.

(11:55):
It's not about the wallowing andthe sitting back and talking
about it. It's about takingaction. So

Andy Fermo (12:02):
there's always time for from what I'm hearing is
there's time for reflectiveexercises, but that's after the
doing, right? So because you canonly reflect once you've done
it, yes, but if you'rereflecting on something that
might have been done in thepast, and this is what I'm
hearing, right? So reflecting,if you're not in that sort of
space at the moment, I'mreflecting on my service way
back then. What could happenthat you can give yourself some

(12:24):
really negative connotationsabout I used to be able to do
this. Now I'm no longer able todo this, and now I'm out and I'm
away from all but if you're thengoing ready to do something new,
I'm ready to maybe repurposewhat I already know, but I don't
quite know it yet, because thethings are a bit hazy. Someone's
taken that driver's seat thatyou were talking about. Okay,

(12:44):
well, here, now, right? This.
Okay, let's give you theseoptions then, to empower you to
do this, because now, giving youthe introduction, or you've gone
and done your own recce, feelcomfortable about the space
here. Now it's actually okay.

Unknown (12:58):
Now let's do it. Yes, the

Andy Fermo (13:00):
big one. Yes, you're not going to get fit in an RPM
class if you're thinking aboutrolling those feet over.

Unknown (13:07):
Yeah, you got to show up and jump in. And military
people are actually really goodat doing that. It's what they've
been trained to do. So we cantap into those resources that
they have and that training thatthey've had, yes,

Andy Fermo (13:27):
absolutely amazing.
Yeah, and showing up is and Ithink that's one thing, though
we had that choice to be able togo and do something, right? So I
don't need to get up to do thistime. But just, and I use an
example of the yoga, and then Ijust said this to our veterans
the other day, Jill, is that,man, you guys are awesome. You
know why? Because you're alwayshere well before time, or at
least five or 10 minutes beforeyou need to be here. And that

(13:50):
really helps with with this,because you get to have a bit of
banter. You get to do it beforethe activity that help helps put
people in a good, relaxed space.
And I find that veterans andfirst responders are really good
at showing up punctually, sothat's at the correct time
beforehand, and then they'rethere. And that's a really

(14:10):
empowering thing to know thatyou can be there on time and
then do this, and showing up yesbefore that needs to be done is
massive. And I said, Look, man,you guys are always on time.
They're there, and that's what Ilove about it, yeah, yeah. I
know that community is going tobe they say, be there at 930
they're there at like, 920 Yeah.

Unknown (14:30):
No, no such thing as fashionably late. Gosh, I'm
laughing because I am thattypical civilian that is
fashionably late and forging acareer the way that I have with
military work and then workingwith veterans, I've really had
to look at myself and adjust.
Or, you know, if I am going tobe that sort of five minutes

(14:54):
late, communicate well ahead oftime. That's what's happening.
But. I guess this is quite anice segue into looking at what
comes after psychosocial rehab,really, in the space that we
work in, it's vocationalrehabilitation we're typically
working with, or always workingwith, people that are of working

(15:15):
age, so before the retirementage, and we want to support them
to re enter the workforce, toredeploy into something new. And
there's a real big adjustmentthere. If somebody has been in
the military for years, decades,in adjusting to the civilian
sort of way of doing things, oneof those key elements, is time

(15:39):
and punctuality and normalizingtardiness in in civilian work
settings, because it can windveterans up no end that their
boss was five minutes late ortheir colleague did not respect
time as much as they did, andsometimes that that can actually

(16:01):
lead to a real breakdown in thatperson's ability to perform that
role with that organization. Sothere's a lot of what I call
civilianization that needs tohappen to support that person to
be successful in a newenvironment. And I guess, yeah,
to redeploy effectively. So

Andy Fermo (16:21):
when we redeploy effectively, and what would
typically be, can you expand onsome of those things you like,
some things that need to happenin civilianization. You
mentioned earlier before, aboutyou learning the language of
speaking the language of thecohort that you're speaking,
that you're servicing, right?
Yeah, you're talking about thisnow, the civilianization from a
military the other way around.

(16:43):
Yes, and what does that looklike? Look

Unknown (16:45):
I think time, that example of time, is a big one,
and I don't necessarily thinkthat ex military individuals
need to change in a drastic way.
In that sense, it's just aboutbeing a little bit more
flexible. About not so rigid,yeah,

Andy Fermo (17:04):
yeah. Like your shoulders a little bit, yeah.
Remove the character. You'rewalking a little bit stiff. Just
relax

Unknown (17:13):
a little Yes. So a little bit more flexible. And
that that has its whole wholethere's a whole big space to
explore there, around being ableto relax about being more
mindful, being in the moment,not over planning and over
analyzing. So that's a lot ofthe pre work that we would do in

(17:36):
that psychosocial space, to tosupport somebody to be really
ready for work. Aside from time,there's some soft skills that we
look at as well. Military peoplebring massive skills in terms of
communication, ability to workwith teams, ability to lead and

(17:57):
take charge as well. So thoseare huge pluses and very
attractive for civilianemployers, actually, but where
there can be a pitfall with someof that is the very direct
communication.

Andy Fermo (18:16):
That's what I love about when I'm working with you,
Julissa, you're very direct,yeah, but it is. It can be,
isn't it?

Unknown (18:24):
It can be off putting to people that haven't been in
those environments that requirevery clear, very purposeful,
very direct comms, becausepeople's lives are on the line.
There's no time to fluff aroundwhen we're out of that military
setting. Now, it's a differentjungle there. There might be a

(18:47):
lot of time, and a lot of peoplehaven't had that exposure to
that direct form ofcommunication, and so just
softening a little bit isworthwhile, yeah. So

Andy Fermo (18:59):
like that sort of a bit of aggression. It can come
across. It could come be, itcould be perceived, yeah, as
that aggression. And that'ssomething that you So, right?
Because learning that languagenow, when you're an example,
would be, I need resources forsuch and such thing is, Hey
mate, boom. This is what weneed. We need it here by this
time, Hey, man, I just wanted tochat with you, how's your day

(19:21):
going? Maybe, do you reckonmaybe that you can fit in in
your busy schedule? To do this,this is what we're requiring. Is
that something that maybe youmight be able to deal with it?
Point, swear word, yeah. I needthis now, right? Is just that
softening? Yeah, I think there'sin communications and signals.
In particular, they used to callit. There was an acronym. It was

(19:44):
called clap, which is clear,loud as an order with pauses,
all right, so then that's whenyou're actually directing, yes,
giving an order to someonethat's all communicating. That's
what you just said, right? Yes.
Sometimes people go, hold on asecond. This guy's full of. I've
heard this person full onactually wasn't being too full
on this missionary job. Yeah.

Unknown (20:07):
Now I don't think it's necessary to really swing the
complete other way and be overlyengrossed in being really wishy
washy or too soft in thecommunication style, people
don't need to completely change.
And what is so wonderful is thatmilitary people will bring that

(20:28):
experience and that nichecommunication style into a new
workplace, which actually couldhelp that workplace. So it's
just about finding that balanceand fine tuning ever so
slightly, or just being awarethat it could be a thing just
to, Hey, watch out for this. Itmight be a thing for you. Yes,

Andy Fermo (20:53):
absolutely. Because just putting that sort of,
trying to use some analogiesthere, instead of being little
less abrasive, isn't it? Ifyou've got, if you got, like, a
sharp edges on a bit ofsomething like that's sharp,
maybe let's get the file andjust round off the edges, and
then take a little bit, becauseit's still the structures in and
just softening that little bitthere. So then that way the
perception of what it is,because it might not be as

(21:15):
critical in that example thatyou use, the vibes can be on the
line. We need to mission focusthis right now. There still
could be a mission, but it'sabout, okay, there's a little
bit more time, yes, less alittle bit less of consequence.
So then that way you canactually soften that yes action
a little bit. Yeah,

Unknown (21:35):
I think so. One example might be email communication. I
know in the military, there's alot of acronyms that are used,
and there might not be hello soand so, it just is the person's
name or no name, and just themessage, and that's it. No no
sort of sign off either. Andthat's okay. It might be

(21:58):
perceived as somewhat abrasive,somewhat insensitive. So a
simple Hi, so it's not usingacronyms as much, chat later or
thanks, and then a bit of a signoff. That's great little tips
like that.

Andy Fermo (22:14):
And not in caps. I had to bash that out of me, like
writing in capital, yeah, allcaps. That's like shouting, but
the basic,

Unknown (22:25):
yeah, look very basic, but practical. Yeah, that's what
our role is in that space.

Andy Fermo (22:32):
So some of those things that soft skills, time, a
little bit of flexibility aroundthe communication and how it may
be perceived from someone in thecivilian community. Maybe
another one, what would beanother?

Unknown (22:45):
Another one, I think, is learning to tolerate
processes being a little longer,taking a bit more time to come
to fruition in the civilianspace, if somebody gets an order
or a direction, it may not bedelivered then and there. There

(23:06):
might be a bit of a time, a bitof time before there's a
response. And so there's lessurgency. There's just more space
from stimulus and response. Andso again, tools like being able
to be mindful, to relax, to downregulate, helps with that

(23:31):
ability to go with the flow andtake things as they come.

Andy Fermo (23:35):
Yes, isn't it?
That's the thing, yeah. Andthat's massive, breaking it down
into these little steps abouthow these tools that are like
from a holistic point of view,these tools can actually be
implemented in being able tohave that transitional stage,
especially once we're ready in aprogram. How is it that I can
then use my skills to thenrepurpose them, and these are

(23:56):
some of those skills that I needto be able to reintegrate as
best as I can, yeah, and it isgoing to take time. Time is a
big one, but more time youmentioned that before is just
like, Okay, going with the flow.
It's not going to happenovernight. Is Yeah, yeah, no,
with along that process, yeah,

Unknown (24:15):
that's right. And then I guess the next piece is about
being confident in the skillsthat somebody has acquired
through their militaryexperience, and being confident
to use those and bring those tothe table, to step up,
sometimes, when that might beneeded, to take on leadership
roles, to really encouragecohesive teamwork. Because I

(24:40):
think a lot of civilianworkplaces could do with that.
And so there's huge skills thatmilitary people can bring to the
table, and it's about beingconfident about using those
skills

Andy Fermo (24:55):
Exactly. And I'm thinking we use the an example
of, just say, someone that wason the. Time there was a team
leader in, say, infantry orwhatever section that they were,
from a military point of view,you're working in the small
teams that's got that middlemanagement in, say, corporate
world, you're having to givedirections and orders for a job

(25:15):
to be done, and being able tofollow up or not to trust your
team that they know what theirroles are going to be. Very
important. I'm just saying I'musing the corporate world, but
in any other, many other rolesin the civilian world, those
things can come in. But thenwhat we were talking about just
before, as well, fitting thosebits in and repurposing those

(25:36):
skills need to be done with alittle bit more finesse and
those softer skills of nothaving as high expectations to
have things done yesterday, it'sgoing to take some time, and how
I go about asking someone to dothat? Yes, I'm not giving, I'm
giving the direction of whatneeds to be done as an order, so
to speak, but not so assertivelythat it's comes racing. Yes,

Unknown (25:58):
that's right. I think a key part in that is that whilst
there might still be hierarchyand structure to an
organization, there's a lot lessrigidity in that somebody that
may be at the ground level ofthe hierarchy is able and is
allowed to speak with somebodyat the top of The hierarchy, and

(26:20):
that is what happens in thecivilian space. And so that's a
complete shift in terms of thestructure of an organization.
And again, a little bit moreflexibility with that, not
taking offense if somebodydoesn't follow the chain of
command, it's not the end of theworld, if that happens?

Andy Fermo (26:42):
Yeah. And then I suppose also something that was
that, is that, is that thecivilian words a lot different
to military or as a firstresponder, so there's a lot of
political correctness that canalso that, that people have to
that's different, that's adifferent topic. Yes,
altogether. I don't want to be,I don't want to be ripping any
band aids or triggering it onthat issue that is very much a

(27:03):
big one as well, that peoplealso have to accept being in
that different environment, thatit's not as rigid as what a
military or first responder rolemodel,

Unknown (27:11):
yeah, yeah. And I think that new environment can
actually help with recovery inthe end, it's more relaxed, and
so that that will help toencourage somebody to be at ease
that little bit more. We don'twant to constantly be in that
overly stressed state and readyat any time that ready state.

(27:33):
It's actually not helpful for usall of the time, because there's
too much stress hormonecortisol, running through the
system and over time that has animpact on our bodies and our
health. So there's a lot to besaid about that integration into
the civilian way of doingthings, and not so much

(27:56):
disregarding the military roots,but evolving Absolutely And one
great tool to support with thisprocess initially is looking at
a work trial. One of the firststeps we might do with somebody
that's ready to re enter theworkforce is actually trial a

(28:18):
job, no strings attached. Try itbefore you buy.

Andy Fermo (28:22):
Try before you buy.
Yeah. And so how was someone asan OT when you've got someone in
the program, they've committedto doing this activity and
they're rocking up as part ofthat care that you're doing as
the case officer for thatparticular person, what then do
you guys do like when you'rechecking up on the clients when
they're in that program? Whatdoes that look like? Or what can

(28:44):
people expect?

Unknown (28:48):
Generally, it's fairly informal. It's a sort of
informal check in. There'sfairly regular checkpoints where
we want to continue to build arelationship and trust with our
client, and we want to check inon their progress. So it might
be as simple as, how has theweek gone? Tell me about what

(29:09):
you've been getting up to. Howare we going with this goal?
Somebody's goal might be toleave the house three times a
week and engage in an art class.
Engage in an art class is theactivity and the goal that
they're trying to achieve isbecoming less isolated, less
housebound, and so we'll beabout talking about how they're

(29:32):
going with that, and if thereare barriers to them achieving
that goal, looking at how we cantogether overcome those
barriers, we might useevaluation tools to help with
building some data as well. Sogenerally, in the initial
assessment phase, we would dosome sort of screening tool that

(29:55):
gives us some sort of outcome.
Measures in terms of howsomebody's going, whether that's
how they're goingpsychologically, how they feel
about how they're going, or howthey're going physically, if
they've got a physical injury,it might be a very holistic,
global sort of tool that we useas well to look at overall sort

(30:19):
of quality of life, and we mightlook at re administering that
tool at periodic times in theprogram, and also at the end of
the program, to really evaluatehow somebody is gone and to
gather data around building theefficacy For the program. But

(30:41):
going back to what I saidbefore, there's less focus on
being clinical, being amedically driven it's about
being real life and not being atreatment or therapeutic
service, because that'sgenerally already happening for
somebody, yeah, yeah. If it'snot, they've probably graduated

(31:02):
from that therapy or treatmentand completed that so our
service is different totreatment. It's, I guess, a
treatment adjunct,

Andy Fermo (31:13):
yeah, and so so on that. So we've got that
psychosocial piece, reducing theisolation and you mentioned
before we hit record as well,that there was other pathways in
terms of being able to repurposeor relearn new skills in terms
of the courses or training thatmight be available to our

(31:34):
client, the client. What couldthat be look like

Unknown (31:37):
in terms of psycho socially, or, yeah,

Andy Fermo (31:41):
like, it's like, would they be in a is that sort
of, you mentioned before, therewas the therapeutic courses
where you know if you're goingin, but can they go and then
also learn some new skills thatsay, like, a TAFE, or there
might be some, yeah, sure. So ifthey were keen on maybe a new
vocation, but they didn't quitehave all the skills in terms of,
once they got out, this is whatthe skill is. They might maybe

(32:04):
require a couple of other skillsto bring them up. I'm

Unknown (32:07):
following you. Yeah, certainly, one of the precursors
to looking at re engaging in theworkforce is determining if
somebody has relevant skills tore enter the workforce, and
relevant and current. So theymight have had some exposure to
say, various IT programs 10years ago. That space has very

(32:31):
much changed in that time, andso they might need to upskill in
that space, and there'sabsolutely provision to be able
to do that under arehabilitation program. That's
when the focus of the programgoes from a psychosocial focus
into a vocational focus. Avocational program means the

(32:52):
overall goal is return to work.
There's no hard and fasttimeline with when that has to
happen, compared with some inthe civilian space, in terms of
other schemes that supportinjured workers, there's very
strict timelines around whensomebody might need to get back
into work. The dva processes areless pressurized, and so we have

(33:17):
the luxury of time to be able toexplore and really, really
sustainably get somebody backinto good, meaningful work.
Yeah, we would typically do avocational assessment to have a
look at what somebody's skillsare, what they work experience

(33:38):
is what their interests are aswell, and whether they have the
skills and abilities to be ableto engage in tertiary training,
if that's necessary as well,because that's a whole beast
into itself, going to uni orgoing to TAFE and learning

(33:59):
something new, it takes quite abit of discipline. And again, it
takes that person needing to beready to do that. There's a big
financial commitment that youknow, dva have on the line in
terms of retraining somebody aswell. So we want to put forward
the right people for the righttraining to ensure that they're

(34:22):
going to go into the type ofwork that's right for them. Yes,
so that vocational assessmentisn't is an all encompassing
process that might take onesession, if somebody is really
quite clear on on what directionthey want to head in, or it
could take a few sessions there.

(34:44):
There's generally a bit of workthat the client needs to do as
well, which might involve workexperience, work trials,
actually putting themselves outthere in different types of
industries to get a feel forwhich direction they want to go.
Go in and get some skin in thegame. If they're looking at
doing some sort of tertiarytraining, whether that be a

(35:07):
university bachelor's course ora TAFE program, and they're not
sure about how they're going togo with studying, then we would
look at recommending a sort ofget ready for study, study prep,
type, course. Okay,

Andy Fermo (35:23):
so pathways there, so that reducing those
roadblocks that people might besetting themselves around, yeah,

Unknown (35:28):
really making sure they're conditioned and ready,
just like somebody in theinfantry goes through recruit
school, then goes throughinfantry training, and then they
are welcomed into the infantryfold. The same thing needs to
happen here, wherein, ifsomebody hasn't studied before,
we want to make sure that one,they've got the aptitude for it

(35:51):
and they're ready, and two,they've actually got some skin
in the game, and they've showedthat they know how to build a
study routine, because they'vedone a study prep course,
they've passed the course, andnow they're ready for a formal
study program. And

Andy Fermo (36:08):
this is where I'm thinking that I'm seeing that,
which comes back to that alsothe psycho skill sets. A lot of
this stuff as as the provider,is that you're guiding someone,
but you've got these multiplepathways that can be happening
at the same time. So one'sbuilding you up, then you get
there. That doesn't mean that ifyou've done these activities and
enjoying being sorry, gettinginto the reduction of social

(36:30):
isolation by doing activities,that helps also put you in a
good mindset to be able to learnand do something, because then
you've got these otheractivities going on
concurrently. Yeah, definitely.

Unknown (36:40):
And look, a lot of time people don't have to retrain.
They can repurpose the skillsthat they've already got and the
experience they've got to dateand re enter the workforce
immediately. It might be so I'vegot a massive success story that
I really love chatting about.
One of my veteran clientsthought that they wanted to do a

(37:00):
degree and thought that wastheir pathway, and it was going
to add a lot of time before theywere able to then get into work,
which was the ultimate goal.
Instead, what we were able to dowas find a really niche, suited
work trial the person was ableto test out this new industry,

(37:26):
figure out if it was for them.
The workplace recognized theyears of experience that this
and at the end of the work,trial offered a an incredibly
well paying role, full timerole, and this person accepted,
and now they are working, andit's just

Andy Fermo (37:45):
a well paid role,

Unknown (37:49):
yeah, without the need to go and get that degree,
because that work experiencethat they had was considered
just as good, just as much asthe piece of paper, if not more
than the piece of paper. Andthrough their sort of military
time, they had gained skills andquals as well. And so those

(38:10):
calls were repurposed through aprocess called recognition of
prior learning, okay, which wewould do again in that
vocational assessment phase tohelp understand what military
experience, how the militaryexperience and work converts
into civilian qualifications.
Yeah, love that example of how awork trial, which might seem

(38:34):
fairly simple, actually waspivotal in this person's entire
rehab process and journey.

Andy Fermo (38:44):
That's amazing, because then what you find I'm
hearing is that sometimes, ifyou haven't been been guided
through this navigation processof being ready to go back into
the workforce, what you mightthink is I need to do A, B and
C, but actually I've all got allthese skills from my years and
lived experience and everythingthat's accumulated, maybe

(39:06):
perhaps the recognition of priorlearning might do that. And the
opportunity to go into this thisrole and have a go, once you're
ready to do that, is amazing.
And then the opportunities couldcome out where, in this case,
the person who's offered an wellpaid role helps. That helps with
transition a little bit more,because then that also covers
off on the financial

Unknown (39:26):
absolutely, yeah, uncertainty. It's a really good
point, and it's a huge piecewe're always and DBAs mission is
to ensure that somebody can getback into a role that is
commensurate with what earningsthey were previously on in the
military, if more, yeah, so justnever go backwards, but to keep

(39:48):
moving forwards in terms of thatfinancial piece, so yeah, we
wouldn't be expecting somebodyto lower their standards around
what they, you know, earn. Andexpect to be paid, yes. So if
that means they they do need toretrain, then we can certainly
support that study pathway,provided the other boxes are

(40:11):
ticked in being able to justifythat is the right pathway for
that person, yeah, yeah. What Ilike about my earlier example as
well is that this person was intheir mid 50s, doing a degree
was going to add on a lot oftime and potentially make it

(40:31):
less possible to re enter theworkforce being that little bit
older. So we got tocircumnavigate all of that and
get work happening earlier, andI think they're probably better
for it.

Andy Fermo (40:46):
Yeah, that's that is such a great story.

Unknown (40:50):
It is. There's other examples of we've got a client
who has done got their realestate license. That's not
necessarily that traditionaltertiary pathway in terms of
university or TAFE, but theypresented and were keen to work
with people very confident hadthose skills to be able to sell.

(41:14):
And so they've gone into thatindustry, very different from
wearing a uniform and being inthe military, but repurposed
some of those skills that theyhad gained.

Andy Fermo (41:26):
What's that like when you actually see someone,
you working with someone for awhile that sort of it takes a
while for them to really open upand go, Well, I'm really
trusting my guide and my OT andmy case officer. Now, what's
that like for you from lookingat from the other side of the
that fence there to be able tosee, oh, actually, do you have
these skills and repurposing inthat change in mindset from from

(41:48):
the client? What's that like?

Unknown (41:50):
Oh, look, it's so rewarding. Um, yeah, the ability
to help somebody navigate theirfuture is hugely rewarding, and
it's why we do what we do. It'swhy we come to work every day,
and it's a privilege. Thiscohort of clientele, generally

(42:16):
speaking, are eager andmotivated, and that, in turn,
fuels me, that motivates me, andit's inspiring. Yeah, I don't
know what else to

Andy Fermo (42:26):
say. Oh, no, that's amazing. I was just nice to be
able to see what it is like, youknow, from that you mentioned
right at the start, this is justseeing that reward. And when you
see that switching from someoneactually, you know, that
desperation, or whatever it is,that is like, I can't do this
now. I'm no longer the personthat I was and etc to then going
on doing these things. Now I'mgonna have a crack at it, and

(42:46):
then, oh, actually, I've got alot of skill. I can bring a lot
of things to the table and dothis right. Which leads me to, I
know that we've covered on a lotof stuff, and there's a lot of
things to also that we couldkeep on talking about there.
Jill, but one other thing thatthat we did talk about, in
regards to the work that you'vebeen doing a fair bit more now,
was the first responder piece,and working with the

(43:09):
organizations like waypoll,where the focus is like, just
say, if we put a medicalretirement out of the picture,
where we're actually Talkingabout people who are still
operational, but something'shappened to them, and they're
using a service like, what, whatinsight Solutions Group is
providing to get them back tooperational status. You said it

(43:30):
wasn't too different. The focusthen is to go from because they
still operational, they're stillwithin the organization. They're
not that. There's nottransition. So what I guess I'm
asking is, what's that? Is thereany stigmas about it? Because,
you know, they did this, course,there is, is a vocational rehab
group seen as this, okay,they've done this, and are they
going to jump ship, or are they,is that? Oh, am I going to see

(43:52):
the quack type thing? What areyour experiences around the
space? Yeah,

Unknown (43:57):
it's a good question. I think there are some parallels
with I'm thinking back to mytime with ADF rehab as well. So
the internal mechanism tosupport people in uniform, this,
in this case, in the military,back into their military role.

(44:18):
There was a massive stigmaaround being downgraded, make
downgraded and needing a rehabprogram, people didn't
voluntarily sign up for that.
No, I think we do tend to seesome of that stigma in the likes
of WA Police as well, wherepeople are potentially reluctant

(44:39):
to own up to an injury or havingdifficulty with their mental
health for fear of what it'sgoing to do to their career.
That's

Andy Fermo (44:51):
right with a career suicide having Yeah, but there's
some

Unknown (44:54):
great internal support mechanisms there. There's a
recognition around the. Veryreal occupational hazards that
come with policing or being anyfrontline service. Yes,
absolutely, you generally aresigning up for a lot of hurt,
physically and psychologically.
They're putting their bodies onthe line. They're putting
themselves on the line everyday. And that comes with

(45:17):
consequences. There's a reallygood, yeah, like I say, internal
support structure in place. Sothere's, I guess, an internal
injury management or health andwell being team that are aware
of people that might need sickleave for work related non work

(45:37):
related injuries. If thatbecomes prolonged and there's a
longer recovery time frame,there's generally a level of
rehabilitation support to helpthat person manage that period
and where they can't handle thatinternally anymore, they
actually refer to us and otherexternal rehab providers, so

(46:01):
they consult those services outto us. We essentially do the
same thing in terms ofsupporting that journey for them
being injured, unable to dotheir operational work, and
helping them back into work.
Oftentimes, that will involveengaging with Officer and their

(46:22):
workplace so their OIC Officerin Charge to understand what
sort of non operational dutiesthey can do, and developing a
rehab plan that supports theirengagement in work, using work
as the therapy. Work helps therecovery, but it's not that sort
of frontline work. It's thatstep back, and then when they

(46:46):
are medically fit and clearedfor operational duties, it's
about getting back into that,yeah.

Andy Fermo (46:51):
Oh, that's great. So what I'm hearing is that then
that way, if that's the internalsystem within that organization,
they've exhausted at that pointin time, they've exhausted
whatever it is when theresources internally, they're
externally, outsourcing it to aprovider like insight Solutions
Group to then be able to workwith the member to get them to

(47:13):
that stage. And then, becauseyou're working with the OIC of
their on their progress, theidea is always to be able to get
them back to operational status,but you're using other elements,
like your Mongo I'm not going tobe on the like a front line on
the beat so type, so to speak.
But then there's other roleswithin a station that I might be
able to do in the meantime,because then it's still giving
them purpose around that.

(47:34):
Whether or not they like thoseroles exactly is a different
question, but it's about beingstill within that environment
and being contributing to thatspecific role, whatever it might
look like within thatorganization. Boom, once they're
on their Mac, you've helped themout. I'm just thinking that
might be a more, more like an EPtype sort of physical battle, or

(47:55):
seeing a seeing a counselor or apsychologist a psychiatrist, to
be able to get the head itdoesn't mean that they're a
liability. It's just like that'sliability. It's just like you
sorted out that's outside of theeyes of the main that the main
the head shed. But then that waythey know where the progress is,
you're giving them some workthat's still part of that
organization, and then hookingthem back into absolutely

Unknown (48:17):
what I have found really interesting and quite
refreshing with WA Police as anagency as a whole, is their
openness around men, the mentalhealth risks with policing. And
a lot of my clients will openlytalk about PTSD, depression,

(48:38):
anxiety, the impact of what theysee has its consequences. And
there's not shying away fromseeking, acknowledging what
might be going on, and thenseeking support for it. And
yeah, there tends to be a levelof like, I say, openness and
acceptance around the factthat's what's going on.

Andy Fermo (49:01):
So it's like that shift of normalizing the
conversations around that, soit's not so stigmatized. And
going, if I talk about this is,if I bring the subject up, that
means that you're likevulnerable and your reliability.
It's more about, let's just talkabout what happened then,
because instead of putting it,let's not talk about that
subject ever again. It's a manlike that was pretty heavy shit
that we went through today.
Let's just debunk that, debriefit, however that might look, and

(49:23):
then put any supports in if youneed any. But then let's go on
for the next day's worth ofoperations. And that's something
that the I really respect somuch with that with our
frontline workers, is thatthey're out there in it's a
domestic setting, but they'regoing out every single day, and
there's, you never know what'sgoing to be happening in that
line of work?

Unknown (49:42):
Yes, yeah, they see it all. That's for sure.

Andy Fermo (49:44):
Yeah, that's right.
Cool. No worries. Just so lookup. We've covered so much
information here, and so just torecap, with some parting moments
for otherwise, we could talk allday about this is that so would
you like to be able to sharewith our audience? If they're in
either one of the camps there,whether a military or first
responder that's looking to seeksome services from a vocation a

(50:07):
group like insight solutions,what do we what would be some
parting?

Unknown (50:13):
I think keeping an open mind about where your journey
can take you. And I think havingthat attitude can hold you in
good stead in terms of beingable to receive the right kind
of support or follow the rightpathway and ask questions

(50:37):
curious. Yeah, and there's a lotof resources and supports out
there. Reach out

Andy Fermo (50:44):
absolutely now, just on this last one, which kind of
so when you've got someone thatmight be reaching out, and they
still might have this hurdle tosay, Hey, I'm going to reach
out, but I don't want to, Idon't want to be seen like able
to do what I'm going to do, butI just need to have some stuff
worked on what would be like acouple of pathway or two to go
about that.

Unknown (51:06):
So if they've Sorry, I'm just trying to figure out,
okay, so this person, what mightbe going on for them? Can you
rephrase the question? Okay, so

Andy Fermo (51:15):
just say someone had some stuff going on, yes, and
they didn't want to sort ofjeopardize their career, so to
speak. But they know thatsomething like, let's say, maybe
get operational again, and noone wanted to reach out to be
able to see what services arethere? Obviously there's a chain
of command type pathway oranother one. Is there options

(51:37):
for that person, whoever itmight be, to be able to reach
out. So I guess you're talkingabout police Yeah, or pathways
that people can read you, yeah,yeah. So

Unknown (51:48):
if they are working, if they're working with the police
force, we would get ourreferrals through the vocational
rehab unit within WA Police,which is a unit within the
health and welfare division. Andso generally, that person needs

(52:09):
to make themselves known to thatdivision by being on extended
sick leave or having there's anincident and they've been
injured, and it's obvious thatthey're going to need some
Return to Work Support. Okay,they can ask that division to be
referred through to us, outsideSolutions Group, from my

(52:31):
understanding, it's thediscretion of that internal
unit, that vocational rehabunit, as to where that may go.
Okay, yeah, if we're looking atdefense and there's a member
that is feeling like theypotentially need to have a mech
review, something's happened, orthere's an accumulation of

(52:52):
issues going on, and they're notfeeling like they can perform
their sort of active role, theywould Need to go and have a
medical review or a MECC review,and that tends to trigger a
referral to the rehab teaminternally, yeah, so we, I don't
do that work anymore, becauseI'm not employed on base

(53:15):
anymore. The work that I do isthrough a dva referral. Okay, if
a veteran in this case wants toreach out and work with us, then
they would need to ask dvarehabilitation to be referred to
Insight solutions group who workin partnership with work rehab.

(53:38):
Okay, so

Andy Fermo (53:38):
that's the pathway.
So now suppose that was the bitin closing, because I want to
make sure then, that way, if anyone of our audiences out there,
regardless of whatever forcethat they're in or organization,
is those pathways about how theycan go about seeking the help
and being in contact, and thenwhat, from what I'm hearing, is
it's that referral sort ofstage, in whichever way that he
just

Unknown (54:00):
Yes. If people want the anonymity, there there are
options. So police, they have anEAP provider, a psychological
support provider, that they cancontact anonymously. They don't
have to let their agency knowthat they're seeking that
support, and they also don'thave to pay for that service.

(54:24):
That's often a benefit with mostemployers nowadays is there is
that employee assistanceprogram, so EAP support
available with with us when itcomes to working with veterans,
the veteran will need to reachout to dva and actually seek a

(54:44):
referral to us.

Andy Fermo (54:46):
That's the self referral.

Unknown (54:48):
If somebody reaches out to me directly, that's the
pathway that I set them on. Sothey're welcome to reach out
directly, but ultimately, thenthere's the process then engage
with Steve. Yay, to do that.

Andy Fermo (55:01):
Great. Thank you so much, and I should have been a
little bit more clearly withthat, yeah, to our audience. So
thank you so much for coming onthe show today and being able to
share your wealth of knowledge,especially around the psycho
piece, because I know that'sreally something that's that's
jam, and to be able to sharethat with how what the
expectations are if you're goingto be entering into the program,

(55:24):
or the work that you may need todo before you enter into that
program, through thepsychosocial activities is so
important. So thank you so much.
Jill,

Unknown (55:32):
thanks Andy, and thank you for the work that you're
doing and creating theseopportunities like this. It's
really wonderful the impact thatyou're having on the community.
So thank you.

Andy Fermo (55:43):
Thanks, mate, bye.

Claire Fermo (55:47):
Join us next time for the next episode of the
invisible injuries podcast.
Don't forget to subscribe formore great content. Follow us on
our socials, on Instagram, andyou can also visit our website,
www.invisibleinjuries.org.au,where you can access more
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