Lessons From The Moon: Be Whole in Every Phase | 065

Somatic educator Elizabeth Jurgensen shares her interpretation of Native American moon teachings about patience and quality of life. Through the lens of her personal story, she walks us through the lessons we can glean from lunar cycles.   

In midlife, a car accident left her navigating menopause with serious physical injuries. Confronted by her inability to work and further her career as an educator, she found wisdom in the Grandmother Moon teaching. This tradition prompted a reexamination of Elizabeth’s beliefs about success, productivity, and purpose, and illuminated the traps of internalized capitalism.   

In our conversation, we explore the moon as a mirror for feminine growth—the quiet power of the dark phase, the discovery and discernment of waxing energy, the brilliance and weight of fullness, and the necessary softening, reflection, and integration of waning back to the new moon.  

Elizabeth invites us to embrace the contentment, trust, and pace of the moon—the slow and steady filling and emptying that allows us to savor every phase of the journey. Follow the moon’s lead, she says. Welcome change, bask in the dark and light of the moment, and celebrate the possibilities that come with each state.  

The moon reminds us that we are whole at every phase. We’re only seeing a sliver of the story. There’s more to come.  

TESS’S TAKEAWAYS 

• The moon gives us holistic perspectives on time and productivity.  
• Constantly moving and changing, the moon shows beauty in change.  
• The dark phase offers time to rest, ground, reflect, and recharge.  
• Waxing is an opportunity to check in and explore alternate possibilities. 
• The moon moves steadily to full. Embrace the slow and rhythmic reveal.  
• The temporary intensity of fullness offers growth and then clarity.  
• Rather than crashing from a high, waning invites us to savor, integrate, and celebrate.  
• Wanting more is not to be exiled. It’s an energy that carries us. 

ABOUT ELIZABETH JURGENSEN 

With a thirst for learning and achieving, Elizabeth has had multiple careers applying herself to education, research, and disciplined practice.   

Her post-college years were focused on the performing arts, as an actress and dancer. Moving to the corporate world, she got a business degree and worked in finance. Her next pivot was to work as a fitness instructor and wellness coach.   

Discovering her love for academics, she went back to school, getting a Master’s degree in a new field and teaching college students.  

Debilitating injuries from a car accident and ten years’ rehabilitation, made her work impossible, and brought Elizabeth to the next major phase of her life. She embraced somatics, exploring trauma healing, relational dynamics, and embodied awareness.  

The values of slowing down and turning inward, and the gifts of deep presence and self-care became central to her philosophy. She pursues them as ends in themselves, not toward goal-oriented pursuits, nor in a commercial practice.    

A certified somatic educator, Elizabeth integrates insights from ancient archetypes, women’s wisdom traditions, and the interplay of masculine and feminine energies. She shares what she knows in adaptive and informal ways to guide others. 

 

MEET TESS MASTERS:   

Tess Masters is an actor, presenter, health coach, cook, and author of The Blender Girl, The Blender Girl Smoothies, and The Perfect Blend, published by Penguin Random House. She is also the creator of the Skinny60® health programs.       

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Episode Transcript

Tess Masters (00:01):
Oh, Elizabeth, I am so excited to have this
conversation with you about themoon and what she has taught you
and what you're learning as anolder woman.
We start with the prayer thatyou like to share.

Elizabeth Jurgensen (00:21):
I would love to start with prayer. And
the first thing I want to sayis, this
is a Native American teaching,and there's different versions
of it, you know, depending onthe place in the country that

(00:42):
you're in. But the gist of itis, is that grandmother Moon
teaches us quality of life,because when she's empty, she
fills, and when she's full sheempties. And within that
quality, that that paradigm isthe concept of enough, that we

(01:05):
have enough, and that we willalways have enough, and that's
what actually creates quality oflife, that way of of being
content and with also trustingthat we will wax, we will wane.
We will be full, we will be atthe dark times, but the cycle is
never ending. We don't have toworry that we will get stuck in

(01:31):
a particular place. And what Ifind so comforting is when I go
outside at night and I just lookat the moon, it reminds me it's
constantly moving. It'sconstantly changing. It's a
little bit different everysingle night. And that reminds
me, nothing stays the same. So Idon't have to get all twisted

(01:55):
about where I am right now. Andask yourself, when we think
about quality, do we ever lookat the moon and say, Oh, she's
not so beautiful tonight? Yes, Ithink that was one of the

(02:16):
biggest lessons I took away fromthe moon teaching, because in
our culture, we focus on thebigness and the brightness, what
I would call the fullness of themoon. But I know I never go out
at night and say, Oh, it's onlya crescent moon. She's not
enough. I've never in my lifesaid that. I've always said

(02:39):
she's beautiful, right where sheis,

Tess Masters (02:44):
yes,

Elizabeth Jurgensen (02:46):
and that's about the contentment and about
the trust. And I guess what I'lljust start with is is, as you
know, the last oh, what would Isay? Decade plus of my life has
really been a challenge, andthat's why this teaching has

(03:07):
kind of helped anchor me,because I had to completely
reorient my relationship totime, my relationship to
success, my relationship toachievement, all of that within
the last decade, and thatcoincided with going through

(03:29):
menopause, and I didn't have alot of psycho spiritual support,
you know, with within that. ButI did have this teaching. I did
have this particular teachingthat I got from a friend of mine
who is what is very grounded inNative American teaching and

(03:50):
spiritual understandings, andit's something that I would just
say I hold onto, because itcreates trust for me, it creates
trust, because no matter whatphase of the moon is happening
at the moment, it's going tochange so I'm not stuck. It's

(04:11):
always going to be beautiful,right where I am, even if it
feels hard, and I will alwaysget another chance.

Tess Masters (04:20):
Oh, that's an important thing, isn't it? Yeah,
yeah.

Elizabeth Jurgensen (04:24):
Because we tend to get in our culture, we
tend to get really caught up inI have to do the thing now, or I
have to achieve the thing soon,because I'm not going to get
another chance. But if you thinkabout it, the moon goes through
a full cycle every 29 and a halfdays, and so in 29 every 29 and
a half days, she is big andbright and beautiful and just

(04:46):
full full full full full and itcomes around every single month,

Tess Masters (04:51):
as it does for women, whether you're
menstruating or not.

Elizabeth Jurgensen (04:54):
Yes, we we know that in our bodies, we have
a just an automatic. Connectionto that cyclical nature. And so
I'll just back up a minute foreverybody, everybody listening,
and you know you, Tess, I justwant to acknowledge what a
beautiful presence in my lifeyou have been and a support as

(05:16):
I've gone through this. But Ihad just started. This was back
in 2013 I had just finished anadvanced degree. I had gotten a
job in the field that I was soexcited about in academia. I had
research that I was doing, I hada book that I was going to
publish. I was teaching at auniversity that I loved. This

(05:39):
whole new career was opening up,and it felt like this is the
career I've been meant to havemy whole life. Yes, and I was
already 50, I'd had actuallyseveral careers before, but this
was the one that felt the mostlike me, the most like this is
where I belong. And then I wasin a car accident, and it was a

(06:06):
really bad car accident did alot of a lot of physical damage,
and the reckoning that I had togo through with that car
accident is what brought me tothis teaching and has completely
reoriented my way of looking atwho am I now at this phase in my

(06:29):
life.

Tess Masters (06:32):
Yeah, I remember the accident. I remember how
happy you were in that teachingjob because you are a born
teacher, and you're stillteaching, and you will always be
teaching as you are now. Andthat was a huge trauma, a huge
loss, a huge moment of grief foryou. So what was it in you that

(06:59):
allowed this teaching in when itwas presented to you, because
that was a choice. It was achoice to let it in. It was a
choice to embrace thisperspective and this way of
moving through this new chapter.You could have stayed in another
place of grief and denial andanger and all the things, but

(07:25):
you chose to really step intothis. So can you pinpoint that
moment where it just reallyresonated for you, when this was
presented to you?

Elizabeth Jurgensen (07:36):
Well, I've known this teaching for a long
time. Actually, it's but, yeah,there was actually a very
specific moment with anotherwoman. I think I want to say it
was, maybe might even been threeor four years after the
accident, because I did continueteaching. I did continue working
for a couple more years, and mybody just couldn't do it. It

(07:58):
just couldn't do it. I was intoo much pain, and I knew that I
couldn't be the teacher, theacademic, the writer, that I
really wanted to be, and that Ineeded to step back and just
literally take care of my healthand and take care of my body.
And I remember, I was sittingwith a woman who actually is
much younger than me. She's Shewould be now, she's at least a

(08:21):
couple decades younger than me,but she was, she was visiting my
husband and I at our home, andshe herself was really
struggling. She had just let goof a business that she had
started in a really good way.She had sold it to someone that
she felt good about it, but shewas sitting there going, I don't
know what's next. What do I donow? And she was in this real

(08:45):
anxiety about not knowing whatwas next, and what should she
be, and what should she do. AndI just remember, you know how
sometimes we just get downloadsfrom the universe. I don't know
where they come from, but I wasjust sitting there, and I went,
I actually said this to her. Isaid, You are me. You are a

(09:05):
younger me. And I said, Let'sjust really sit quietly with
this for a minute and take alook at why we get so anxious
when we're in between, when wedon't have a project, when we're
not achieving when, andparticularly when there's an

(09:27):
unknown, when we don't knowwhat's next.

Unknown (09:30):
And you know, I am terrible with that, you

Elizabeth Jurgensen (09:33):
and I have done the same thing, where we've
sat and you've and you've justbeen like, Elizabeth, I don't
know what am I doing, or yousaid, I want more. I want more.
I want more.

Tess Masters (09:44):
Concept of enough. When you were saying that
before, I was having a visceralreaction to that, going, oh
gosh, that's a daily, hourly bysecond by second practice for
me.

Elizabeth Jurgensen (09:55):
And so I in that moment, sitting there, what
I. Realized, I don't even knowwhy this teaching popped into my
head, but I realized we wereboth sitting in the Dark of the
Moon. Yes, we were both sittingin the dark time when you can't
comfortably, right, right? Weknow she's there, but we can't

(10:17):
see her. And we live in aculture. We live in a post
modern, capitalistic culturethat worships achievement,
money, fame. Why do so manyteenagers want to grow up to be
an influencer? You know, that'sjust that's the epitome of the
culture that we live in. And sheand I were really at the effect

(10:40):
of that I'm nothing if I'm notdoing something or if, and even
worse, I don't even have a planfor what I'm going to be doing,
you know? And what we realizedin that moment both of us, was
we actually got a real insightinto who we were as people, and

(11:01):
what I noticed was that if Iallow myself to sit in that dark
phase, the Dark of the MoonPhase, I am not a person that
creates out of nothing, likethere are plenty of people that
are just bursting with ideasthat they can just, you know,

(11:22):
something is born out of wholecloth. That's not me. I tend to
be somebody who looks around andthen chooses something that I'm
going to follow. And what Irealized is that's what the dark
time of the moon is for, yes,and if I sit in anxiety, and I'm

(11:45):
sitting there beating myself upthat I don't know what I'm
doing, like I was sitting theregoing, when is my body going to
heal? When am I going to feelbetter? When am I going to be
able to get back to the careerthat I lost? You know, When?
When? When? When? Instead oftaking it as an opportunity to
be, to just be sort of like, letme just rest here and take a

(12:06):
look around. And what she and Iboth realized is because we are
people that are really good atnoticing what would be a really
great something for us to hitchour wagon to. And when I had

(12:28):
that insight, I thought, oh,then I'm a person that really
needs this dark time. I needthis slow time. I need this rest
time. Because here's anotherthing that I saw about myself
through listening to her wasthat once I do decide this is
the thing that I'm going for, Igo all the way I'm going to go

(12:50):
back to school and get thedegree I'm going to or the
certification. I'm going to getreally well trained and well
versed in it, and I'm going tofind a job, or I'm going to
create a job that just reallygets in there and makes a huge
career or success out of it. AndI do that with projects too,
even even personal projects, butit takes me a little while to

(13:12):
find the thing, and I realized Ican't be discerning about that
unless I give myself that graceof sitting in the quiet, sitting
in the dark and just lookingaround,

Tess Masters (13:27):
and that is challenging. I know, for
somebody like me and you and Ihave spoken about this, that I
see the dark moon asnothingness, as Yes, as
emptiness, as failure asinaction. I mean, you know,
there's all these things that Iattach to that place, and I want

(13:51):
to

Elizabeth Jurgensen (13:51):
exile that place. So it's uncomfortable.

Tess Masters (13:55):
It's so uncomfortable because, you're
right, we have this, this desireto be seen, to be successful, to
be doing something. So whatwould you say to someone
listening right now, who'sgoing, Yep, that's me. Yeah,

(14:16):
yeah. How do you consciouslyremind yourself of the value of
the dark moon phase.

Elizabeth Jurgensen (14:27):
Well, it helps me when I remind myself
that the moon is still there. Ijust can't see her. It's the
only reason I can't see her isbecause of the way she's
orbiting around the Earth. Atthe moment, she's just in
shadow. It's not that she'sgone, and that's the myth that
we have told ourselves. Isbecause she's that we can't see

(14:50):
her, that she must be gone.It's, it's, it's a void, and
she's never coming

Tess Masters (14:55):
back right. Opportunities, never coming
back. The person's never comingback the right. Love, right
connection the

Elizabeth Jurgensen (15:04):
I never or the or, you know, like in my
fallow time when I was healingmy body and dealing with all the
aftermath of of this horriblecar accident and trying to
figure out, you know, where do Igo from here in the new body
that I have? I have a new I havea menopausal body that has now
been injured in a way that'sleft me with some, you know,

(15:24):
some minor disabilities, andthings were shifting in my
marriage, and we had moved acouple of years before, and
there were just so many thingsthat just kind of needed to
settle, and I wasn't allowingthings to just settle, and
that's what the Dark Of The Moonis for. Let it just settle. Just

(15:46):
rest. Rest is medicine, andagain, that's another thing in
our culture, rest is seen as awaste of time. We brag about
how, yes, there's a bazillionarticles all the time about how
to get more sleep, how to getbetter sleep, but really we're
proud of how sleep, Westernculture

Tess Masters (16:08):
seen as a proactive activity. Yes,
exactly. That's kind of a meansto an end.

Elizabeth Jurgensen (16:14):
It is I need to get rested so that I can
go out in the world and suit bea super achiever and do all the
things. And by the way, what I'mtalking about this focus on
achievement and constant motionand fame and all the things that
go into it. It's calledinternalized capitalism. We've

(16:35):
taken an outward system andwe've internalized it to the
degree that we think this is whoI am, and this is the way I'm
supposed to be, when this isactually a culture that has been
taught to us and there's anagenda behind this culture.

(16:58):
Because, of course, the harderwe work, the more we produce for
the people who make all themoney and own all the
businesses, and you know all ofthat. And even if you're a
business owner yourself, as youare, as I was at one time,
there's still that hustlemindset of, I can't stop for a
moment. I cannot stop for amoment, or I'm going to slide

(17:20):
backwards.

Tess Masters (17:21):
So what do you do in those moments where you catch
yourself in that net ofinternalized capitalism? As a
somatic practitioner, someonewho is constantly reminding
yourself to be in your body inexperience. What can you give us

(17:45):
to remind ourselves? Oh, it'sokay to enjoy the dark moon. The
rest

Elizabeth Jurgensen (17:58):
well, the first thing I do is I, usually,
I usually have to giggle atmyself a little bit because I'm,
I'm able now, and I'm able nowin a way that I wasn't in the
past to recognize, oh, that'sthe narrative that's running.
Yes, I'm, I'm at the effect ofinternalized capitalism right
now. And so I can have a littlelaugh at myself, which actually

(18:23):
right there that softens it alittle bit. Yes, and a practice
that I I really love, is justsitting, closing my eyes and
just saying to my or asking mybody, what are you feeling right
now? What are the sensationsright now that are going on? Is

(18:44):
there like a tight stomach orit? Or is my throat feeling
constricted, or is there aswirly feeling in my solar
plexus? Are my legs feelingjittery in some way, just
noticing what is showing up inmy actual physical body, because

(19:04):
that energy is a manifestationof my thoughts and feelings, and
just allowing that to be there,and just breathing with it, and
being able to say, Oh yeah,there's that, that weird swirl I
get right in my Solar Plexus.And you know, if I put my hand
there and I just breathe into itand just allow it, just allow

(19:28):
it. Because, like you said, thedark time or the fallow time,
when we're in between, or wedon't know what's going to
happen next, or we're trying tofigure out where we should go,
we see that as a void, and wesee it as passive, but it's,
it's actually got its ownenergy.

Tess Masters (19:45):
It and it's an engine. It is. It has. It has
that quality, if you allowyourself to yes, that

Elizabeth Jurgensen (19:53):
way, and that will show up in your body.
If you pay attention, you willfeel whatever energy is. Is
moving around in your body, evenwhen you are feeling at that
effect of you know, anxiety isgoing to show up in your body.
Anxiety, fear, concern, all ofthat, it is going to show up in
your body. Most people say youhave things like, my throat

(20:16):
feels tight, my stomach feelsupset. But sometimes it's even
really subtle. Sometimes it'slike I was saying, like, I
notice I do a lot of like,clenching and unclenching my
hands when I'm anxious, yeah?And I never noticed that until I
started really paying attentionto I stopped eating. I stopped

(20:37):
breathing. I do too. I'm abreath

Tess Masters (20:39):
holder for sure, yeah, remind myself breathe.
Take a breath. Yeah, I just stopbreathing, yeah.

Elizabeth Jurgensen (20:48):
And I find that just acknowledging and
allowing whatever I'm feeling inmy body, also just noticing
what's the quality of my mindright now. Is it racing? Does
it, do I feel kind of numb andfoggy? Am I? Are my thoughts,
you know? Or are they roaringand rushing like a stream, like

(21:12):
even that? And it kind of getsme out of my head, because I'm
on now paying attention towhat's the quality of my mind,
not the particular thoughts, butwhat's the quality, what's the
tone of them, what's thetexture?

Tess Masters (21:25):
Noticing, not a yes, just

Elizabeth Jurgensen (21:27):
a gentle, a gentle, just noticing and an
allowing and an acknowledging.That's the beautiful work you
can do during the dark time,because it's also cleansing.
It's also a way to go. What,what has been going on with me?
Because I know if I've beenreally, really busy, I can get
disconnected from my body, mythoughts, my feelings. And it's

(21:49):
only in the quieter time, in thedark, time in the fallow time
that I have the space Yeah, payattention and to recharge. Yes,

Tess Masters (22:00):
because otherwise you burst, and you really taught
me that through ourconversations about this in the
past, yes, yes, but I am anintrovert that presents as an
extrovert. I don't recharge fromother people. I recharge on my
own, and I'm exactly the same.Yeah, that dark moon is my

(22:20):
recharging, my refueling, my myregrouping, my catching up time.

Elizabeth Jurgensen (22:27):
Yes, catching up, I love that. It's
also a catching up. It's acatching up with yourself,

Tess Masters (22:33):
yes, and thank you for helping me see that in my
life, because I wasn't valuingthat. That was time well spent,
yeah,

Elizabeth Jurgensen (22:47):
yeah, and I wasn't either. And it's so
ironic, because I was forced tobe in a very prolonged, like,
years long, dark time like,Yeah, almost 10 years of healing
my body, you know, trying tofigure out just my limits

(23:07):
physically. And, you know, Iwould do something and I'd have
a setback. I won't go into allthat, but, but just the it was a
very prolonged dark time, andthen put menopause on top of
that, and the craziness of now,today, I feel this way.
Tomorrow, I feel this way. Myhormones are all over the place.
I can't sleep. I feel like a 13year old with my emotions. It

(23:32):
just felt, in fact, now that Ilook back on it, I'm actually so
grateful that I was able torecognize, oh, I'm in a dark
time, because there was actuallya lot happening. It just wasn't
happening in what we value,which is the outside world,
outside achievement. And what Iwas able to see with sitting

(23:54):
with this woman who wasbasically completely me 20 years
but just 20 years younger, wasthat we cannot find our next
thing unless we go through thatdark time. Yes, there has to be
a pause, especially for someonelike me that needs that chance

(24:17):
to kind of, you know, scan thefield and see what would be
really great to do next, knowingthat I'm going to go all in on
it. And I did make some mistakesduring that time, to the degree
I was able, I did take on somesmall volunteer opportunities. I
ended up being the chairpersonof an organization, and I did

(24:37):
them because I felt like Ishould, like I should be doing
something. It's not enough tojust be home and be quiet and
letting my body heal and figureand just sort of scanning the
horizon for what might pop upthat might look interesting
next. I felt like, no, I need toget out there and create and do
at least a little something. AndI ended up joining

(24:58):
organizations. That were notthey were fine, but they weren't
deeply aligned. I remember,

Tess Masters (25:06):
and I remember when you gave yourself
permission to exit that I reallyloved what you were saying a
moment ago about it being apause.

Elizabeth Jurgensen (25:16):
Yes, it's a pause, a sacred pause, a sacred
pause, and there's medicine inthat quiet, that quiet space,
there's deep medicine. And we asa as a culture, have really
stepped away from that. We givelip service to rest, but it's

(25:37):
exactly what you said a minuteago, for the end result of then
going out there, and, you know,becoming full again,

Tess Masters (25:45):
being stronger and even better than you were
yesterday, and being able to doeven more, and expanding your
capacity to the point thateveryone would just be amazed at
how much you could achieve.

Elizabeth Jurgensen (25:54):
Exactly, yes, exactly it's it's like the
rest. The rest is only to beeven bigger and better when you
when you re emerge from the Darkof the Moon. And so if you think
about it, that's not how themoon works. She comes out of the
dark, and she's just a littlesliver. She doesn't burst out of

(26:16):
the dark and is immediately fulland bright. She very gradually
emerges from that fallow, whatwe would call a fallow resting
phase. And it's a very gradualbut steady. And that's one of
the things I love about theteaching, is it really taught me

(26:39):
to value the steadiness and thediscipline of taking your time
getting to whatever the thing isthat you hope will be full and
bright. Oh,

Tess Masters (26:53):
I love the word discipline within the context of
this conversation, because lifeis a practice and a discipline.
Yeah,

Elizabeth Jurgensen (27:03):
yeah. And you notice how the moon it's
she's just a little bit biggerand a little bit brighter each
night, but it's gradual, and shedoesn't rush. And, like I was
saying, I'm not walking outthere going, Oh, she's not big
enough yet. I think she'sbeautiful in every phase. Yes,
absolutely every phase. And sothis what we call the waxing

(27:27):
phase, this deliberate,disciplined, slow growth. What I
saw about that, because,especially now, as I reflect
back and even in thisconversation with you, I'm
reminded of how just even myrecovery, my physical recovery
from that car accident, it'sbeen a slow, steady, disciplined

(27:49):
I had to do all the things youknow, physical therapy and I had
to do some somatic therapyaround the trauma, the emotional
trauma from The accident. I hadto do a lot of practices to stay
steadily on the path torecovery, and it was very slow,

(28:09):
very slow and very deliberate,and it was a discipline that I
had to give myself over to.

Tess Masters (28:17):
Yes, I love what you're saying about this. What's
coming up for me, as I'mlistening to you about this
phase, this gradual, slow andsteady. It's a really beautiful
phase, and invitation to checkin with your capacity,

Elizabeth Jurgensen (28:35):
absolutely, absolutely. And it's also a
chance to check in with do Ineed to reorient? Do I need to
perhaps change a little bit inhow I'm approaching this thing?
If we go too fast? That's kindof what happened with me. With
You know, I wasn't, I wasn'tworking for several years while

(28:58):
I was healing my body, but Ifelt like, oh my gosh, I need to
be doing something, because I'mI'm not. I don't have a purpose.
I'm not useful. I'm not a value.So I joined all these volunteer
organizations, chaired one ofthem, and sure enough, I made
mistakes, because I rushed inand said, Oh, I'll do that, or
I'll do that, or I'll take thatposition. And I couldn't always

(29:21):
come through as my best self,because I was it's still in a
certain like, my physicalcapacity wasn't always there, or
I didn't take the time to reallysuss out, in one instance, who
were the people that I wasreally going to be working with.
And it again, it turned out,okay, okay, in the end, but it

(29:43):
wasn't the the full experiencethat I would have really
enjoyed, because I didn't takemy time.

Tess Masters (29:50):
Yeah, but what I'm hearing is I'm listening to you
is we're gonna make mistakesregardless of which phase we're
in, what speed we're going at,how many, how many. Skills we
have, and that's how we learnand grow. But what I love about
this teaching and being in thisslow and steady phase is that

(30:10):
you allow yourself time to keepcatching up with yourself, to
keep scanning, to keepreadjusting, to keep
reorienting, and you have thattime to keep deciding if you
want to keep staying in thistestament

Elizabeth Jurgensen (30:32):
Exactly, and that's really key. You know,
in the context of the moon, ofcourse, she's going to be full
at us at a certain point, but inthe context of our life, not
everything is meant to come tofruition.

Tess Masters (30:47):
Oh, gosh, that's an really important point,
because we expect that it'ssupposed to, or we believe
that's that internalizedcapitalist again, that if you
study then it must be becauseyou're going to do a career with
it, or you're going to makemoney. It can't just be for the
pure enjoyment of the disciplineof learning and the fulfillment

(31:10):
of learning and growing andbeing in the process of study.
It has to be for something else,

Elizabeth Jurgensen (31:17):
exactly, exactly. And it became very
clear to me at a certain point,and I think you and I even had
to talk about this, that I eventhough I really did have, I
really had respect, like for theorganizations that I was
volunteering for, it wasn't thatI, it wasn't that I was just
grasping at anything. I mean, Idid do some due diligence, but

(31:38):
my my fear of being nothingbecause I wasn't working and I
wasn't producing, I I just tookwhat was in front of me without
a lot of discernment, and andthen once I was in, I didn't
feel like, Ooh, I should backout, because now I've committed

(32:01):
where, if I'd gone a little bitslower, or maybe just done one
at a time, and let me, you know,let me, let me, let me volunteer
for like six months with anorganization. Let's just even
feel how it feels to be avolunteer. But no, I took on
like five organizations.

Unknown (32:19):
I remember, I remember,

Tess Masters (32:22):
but the discernment piece that you're
bringing up is so key, and youhelped me see this, that you can
have more discernment at theslow and steady pace.

Elizabeth Jurgensen (32:37):
You can because you're gonna you're
gonna have a chance because ofthe slow and steady pace, it
gives you a chance to us, likeyou said, assess as you go,
reset as you go, and it givesyou a chance to back out if you
need to,

Tess Masters (32:51):
because you pay to back out, yes,

Elizabeth Jurgensen (32:55):
because, like I said, not everything is
going to turn into the fullmoon. Or the other thing that I
really learned is we tend to, inour capitalistic way of
thinking, that there's only oneversion of what

Tess Masters (33:10):
full is. Oh, that's an important point. Gosh,

Elizabeth Jurgensen (33:13):
but there may be many versions of what
full actually is. And what I'vereally been seeing, particularly
in the last few years, is that Imay start that waxing journey
toward a particular somethingthat I'm interested in or that I
hope to achieve, but it maychange along the way, but if I

(33:36):
go too fast, I won't notice thatthere's an opportunity for
change and that, and it doesn'tgive me the chance to say, you
know, I think I'm going tochange my version. I think I'm
going to tweak and I'm going togo toward this version of
fullness rather than the onethat I started out with. And a

(33:57):
perfect example of that is whenI did go back to school. I went
back to school in in my 40s foran advanced degree, and it
started to get a degree to teachhigh school. I was going to get
the state certification to teachhigh school. So I had to get a
degree. I had to I had to getanother bachelor's. Because of
the bat, the two bachelors I hadbefore didn't really count for

(34:20):
teaching subject matter in highschool. So I started that. I
found a great program, startedthe program, and I just, I would
say, maybe a semester or two in.And this is the beauty of act of
taking classes, is you're kindof forced to go slow and steady,
because you can only you have totake the class, you have to do
the class, you have to finishthe class before you can go on

(34:42):
to the next one. So it does giveyou some time. It's a nice
pacing. It gives you some timeto assess how you're doing. And
I remember I had two professorstell me you shouldn't be
teaching high school, and I wasdevastated because I had been
substitute teaching in highschool. For a few years, and I
loved it. I was like, This iswhat I meant to do. Yay. I found

(35:04):
my thing. And they said, No, youshould consider getting a
master's degree, and you shouldteach at the college level. They
said, I think, I think we, theyboth told me, We think you'll
burn out at the high schoollevel, that you'll that you'll
feel there's a freedom inteaching at the college level
that you don't have in K through12. And they said, We think you

(35:26):
would really thrive there. Whatdo you think? And I thought,
wow, but I never would havenoticed that coming my way if I
was only focused on this is whatmy fullness is going to look
like. It's getting the highschool it's getting the
bachelor's and the high schoolteaching degree. But because I
was kind of going slowly andsteadily, and I had remained

(35:48):
really open to my professors andmy colleagues who were also in
school and just taking feedback,I was really assessing as I was
going, I was really able to hearthat. And I switched course and
entered the master's program,and I did end up teaching at the
college level, and they wereright. I loved it. It felt more

(36:08):
like me than teaching at thehigh school level. So that's a
beautiful example of when wejust slow and steady,
disciplined and be open toperhaps changing course a little
bit along the way. What couldhappen when we reach the full
phase,

Tess Masters (36:28):
yeah. And what's coming up for me as I'm talking
to you, is we're able to dwellin possibility, to be open to
all possibilities. Yeah. And youknow, you and I've spoken about
this before, but I my naturaldepot position is to be tied to

(36:49):
one outcome and one outcomeonly, like you were talking
about,

Elizabeth Jurgensen (36:52):
right? And something that capitalism
teaches us this is this, ormaybe there's more than one, but
there's a very limited range ofacceptable outcomes that are
allowed, and so you have to pickone of one of those,

Tess Masters (37:10):
and that also comes from our family of origin,
too. Oh, sure, in familysystems, there are a system of
rules in every family, andthat's how we're conditioned to
then play out that set of rulesas we continue to grow and go
out into the world, and then wehave, you know, what you're
explaining is internalizedcapitalism into the mix as well.

(37:32):
And then the aperture continuesto narrow unless exactly, keep
it open

Elizabeth Jurgensen (37:39):
Exactly, exactly. And that's why I so
love this idea of the moon justvery slowly and steadily waxing
a little bit at a time. So ashuman beings, that gives us that
little bit of space to pause, tocourse correct, to reassess,
before we get in so deep thatmaybe we reach a fullness, and

(38:02):
we realize this isn't reallywhat I wanted, that can happen
too,

Tess Masters (38:07):
yes, and that has happened many times to me as it
has to you. And yes, no, I'msure you can relate to us.

Elizabeth Jurgensen (38:15):
Yeah, let's

Tess Masters (38:16):
talk about the full moon, because you really
helped me shift my perspective,or, as we've been saying, open
up what my view of it is andwhat it can look like. Because I
was only seeing it as fullachievement, full joy, full and

(38:38):
you helped me see, well, Tess,it can also be full pain, full
drama, full Yes, explosive.Listen, if you are, what does
that feel like in your body? Yousaid to me and and I'm gonna
burst, yeah, and you will if youstay there, because my natural
inclination is previously, untilI had this initial conversation
with you and started reallydiving into this, that I was

(39:01):
only comfortable in full moon.Yeah, full full, full
achievement, achievement,success, success in the light,
in the light, you know, and, andthat's exhausting.

Elizabeth Jurgensen (39:12):
It is exhausting, and it it also
doesn't allow room for anythingelse. I remember, I remember a
conversation you and I had whereyou were in so much distress
because you just wanted more,more more more more you. You
were, you were you were like,Elizabeth, I'm so full, but I

(39:33):
want to stay here, and I wantmore. And I said, and you will
blow up because you can't fit

Tess Masters (39:42):
anything. I anything, and I remember you
said to me,
so where's the room for the newthen,

Elizabeth Jurgensen (39:49):
exactly, exactly, if we stay, if we stay
at that peak fullness, how isthere room for anything else?
And how is there room for changeor growth, or if, or if we're in
a real even if it's the mostwonderful high achieving, like

(40:12):
where I was, I was just I was sohappy I'd gotten the job of my
dreams. I'd, you know, I'dcompleted my career. I had a
book that I was working on allthese things going on, there
wasn't room for anything morethan that. And in some ways,
that car accident, in taking allof that away from me, it created

(40:36):
room for what the perspectivethat I have now, I never would
have gotten this perspective ifI had continued on that path. I
never would have. It would have,and especially in academia,
where it's about continue toresearch, continue to publish,
continue to, you know, get abetter job, get a better, higher

(40:58):
teaching position, your studentsshould do better every semester.
Again, more, more, more, more. Iwould have just stayed on that
track until I probably burstuntil I that's what burnout
really is to me. Is it bursting?It's a bursting. We are holding
too much. We're too full,

Tess Masters (41:18):
yeah, but what's the beauty of the full moon?

Elizabeth Jurgensen (41:22):
Well, the beauty is that we get a chance
to shine our light on otherpeople for one thing, and that
was something that came to megoing back to that conversation
I was having with the woman whowas younger than myself, when I
shared my insight with her aboutthat we were the kind of people

(41:45):
that need this fallow time inorder to discern what our next
move was, because we wereprobably going to pick from
something that was offered to usrather than generate it
ourselves. So we had to be verydiscerning among the offerings.
What were what were we going totake? When I shared that with

(42:07):
her, she said, it makes me cry.She said, I want to just come
sit at your feet and worship youas an elder, because that just
completely changed herperspective of who she was as a
person, and I was and I justthought, I have something to

(42:28):
offer that isn't an achievement,

Tess Masters (42:33):
but it is,

Elizabeth Jurgensen (42:36):
but it's not the kind of achievement like
look how much money I Make, orlook at the job that I have, or
look at the product that Icreated that everybody wants, or
I'm the teacher that everybodywants to take the classes from.
It was literally just somethingthat I came to an insight about

(42:57):
for myself and for her, and Ifound a way to share it in a way
that she could understand it.

Tess Masters (43:03):
But to me, the way that you've taught me about
this, that was you being in yourfull moon, yes, yes, and at the
same time, that's

Elizabeth Jurgensen (43:14):
what I mean by shining my light on somebody
else, absolutely.

Tess Masters (43:18):
And I mean, I think that's a really important
part of this conversation isthat we're not only just in one
phase, just because we'recycling throughout the day of
rest and activity and waxing andwaning, likewise, throughout the
month, in our own internalcycle, and then we are cycling
through these various cycles,and It could all be in one day.

(43:42):
We're not sitting in the onephase. So these epiphanies that
we have while we're sitting inthis quietness, in the
stillness, either with ourselvesor in conversation and
relationship with others, wethen get these these openings
and these experiences withinthese other phases to remind us

(44:04):
the of our capacity to be allthe

Elizabeth Jurgensen (44:07):
things exactly, exactly. And like I was
saying earlier, the fullness canlook so many different ways. It
could be. It could be achievinga goal, or, you know, such as
getting the big job that wewanted, or making the amount of
money that we wanted, or, youknow, buying the house that we
wanted, or getting therelationship that we wanted. It

(44:31):
could be something like that,something that we've been
reaching for, something thatwe've been grasping for. It
could also be internal work ofsay you've been in therapy for a
long time and you finally,finally, you have a breakthrough
on something that's a fullness,that's a fullness that serves

(44:51):
you.

Tess Masters (44:52):
We don't. So we can look fullness, do we? No,

Elizabeth Jurgensen (44:55):
we don't we? Again, we internalize
capitalism, right? We. Look welook at only outside
achievements, and especiallyachievements that can be noticed
by other people. We are sohooked into. Am I getting
noticed by other people? Am Igetting approbation and

(45:17):
accolades from other people forwhat I've accomplished, because
what do we do when we see a fullmoon? Oh, my God, she's so
beautiful, she's so big, she'sso bright. We praise her so
highly when she's at her peak.

Tess Masters (45:33):
Yes, and it's on the news, look at the full moon
right? Everybody's outside, onlylooking at the

Elizabeth Jurgensen (45:41):
right, right, right, exactly. And we
name, we name the full moons,the Wolf Moon, the super moon,
the hunter's moon, but we don'tname, well, if you're in us, if
you're in the world of astrologyor astronomy, yes, there are
definitely names for all of thedifferent phases and all
throughout the month, but asjust a cultural, public

(46:04):
recognition of the full moon.Yeah, it's only the full moon
that is, that is onlyrecognized. And that's what
sinks into our, our, our psyche.Oh, the full moon is the thing
to be celebrated, because that'swhat is paid attention to.

Tess Masters (46:21):
Oh, gosh. And as you're saying this, what's
coming up for me is and then wewait. We're waiting. It's almost
like we're we are in a holdingpattern until the next full
moon, exactly, until the nextaccolade, until the next

Elizabeth Jurgensen (46:38):
Exactly. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Exactly.
And we end going back to whatyou were saying about the Dark
of the Moon, we see that assomehow a failure of void and
emptiness. We see the loss ofthe fullness as, again, a
failure, as as as a loss. Therecan be grief around that. Now I

(46:59):
also want to point out the wewere talking a little moment
ago, you mentioned about thatmaybe the fullness of the moon
is pain, like there's somethingreally painful that you're
moving to and you're just in thethick of it. Now there's two
ways to look at that. You couldlook at that as this is the Dark
of the Moon, but you could alsodefinitely look at it is, this

(47:22):
is the full This is the fullmoon. Because the pain may be
something coming to fruitionthat maybe you've ignored or has
not been dealt with, or thatyou've been feeding in a really
unhealthy way, and now it'sshowing up in its fullness. And

(47:44):
so we also have to be willing totake a look that brightness
shining down on us can be thesignal of, oh, this, this is
what I've created. Is thisreally what I wanted? So I think
that's important. And there'sanother piece to the full moon,

(48:06):
and I have a personal storyabout this too. While it's
wonderful to be in the full moonand feel like, Oh, I've achieved
and everybody's loving me, andI'm, I'm the greatest ever.
What's the what's that sayingthat James Cameron said, you
know, I'm on top of the world,or I'm the best in the world,
something like the world, theking of the world, right, right?

(48:26):
I'm the queen of the world. Whatcan also come up during that
phase is imposter syndrome, ohGod, somehow we don't deserve to
be here. So I really want tospeak to that. And this, I have
a very vivid memory. This wasback when I was in my 30s. I had

(48:46):
a I had a big, fancy job infinance, and it was a great job,
and I was really good at it, andI really loved it. And one year,
I got this giant Award forPerformance, and it was the
first year that my division forthe company I worked for had
decided to give this particularaward, and I found out later

(49:08):
that it was my performance thatmade them want to create this
award. So they based theparameters of how you get the
award on my performance forsubsequent years, so I was and,
but thank God. I didn't knowthat quite at the time, but I
got the award because it waspresented at a year end

(49:30):
conference where they showed thecompany numbers. And, you know,
yeah, yeah, yeah. And yay, howgreat we are. And I get the
award. And I was so surprised,but also really proud, because I
had worked really, really hardthat year. I just put my head
down and worked really hard. Andso it felt so good to get the
recognition. But I remember thenext morning, I woke up and I

(49:56):
said to myself, Oh, my God,they're going to expect. Me to
do this every year from now on.
So that was the the flip side ofbeing in that fullness and

(50:18):
getting all that recognition anddeservedly kind of basking in it
for a moment. But this innercritic came in that said, now
you have to repeat it everysingle year. And of course,
that's impossible,

Tess Masters (50:35):
yeah. And another part of that is what's next,
exactly. So I got to the top ofthe mountain. Now, what? Right?
Oh, where do I go? Now, therecan be a lot of anxiety right in
that, right?

Elizabeth Jurgensen (50:52):
Yes, and I, and I know that was also
something for me, because, asyou know, I've had, you know,
several careers about a decadeeach, and as each one was
winding down, and they usuallywound down, either not through
my choice, because I lost thejob or circumstances, or just
life changed, and it just wasn'ta fit anymore. But yes, that

(51:15):
anxiety of what's next, what'snext, what's next, and then
going back to the Dark of theMoon, I just did not recognize
that I was waning and headinginto the dark, but that that was
actually a very fruitfulprocess, because when we're kind
of coming down off of thatfullness, just like the coming

(51:38):
into The fullness, the waxinggives us a chance to go slowly
and to kind of reassess andmaybe recalibrate as we go. The
Waning Phases give us a chanceto assess what we've just done,
or what we've just been through,like, for instance, if the
fruit, like we were talkingabout, maybe the fullness is a
is a really painful somethingthat, you know, an aha, or a

(52:04):
very painful situation or verypainful episode, something like
that, as it begins to soften andwind down, we now have a chance
because of the slowness, theslowness and steadiness, The
discipline there is to learn tolet go. Learn to sit with the
feelings of letting go. Becauseoften, why we want to hang on to

(52:29):
the fullness is we fear how it'sgoing to feel when it's not full
anymore. Yeah, it's it's noteven sometimes it's not even so
much the loss of the thing thatwe achieved the brightness, the
fullness, it's what we're reallyafraid of, is that we're going
to feel bad once it's gone. Andwe don't want to feel those
feelings, so we want to stay inthe fullness. Yes, a way to

(52:53):
avoid getting to those feelings.

Tess Masters (52:55):
And as you were speaking, you were saying, you
know, the gradual winding down,I was sitting, going, No, it
feels like a crash, but it's

Unknown (53:05):
me. So

Tess Masters (53:06):
you talk to me about that, because that's what
was coming up in my body as Iwas listening to you, is that,
you know, when you're you'veachieved, you've achieved,
you've had the big night, oryou've had the big wedding day,
or you've had the big whateverit is, and then the adrenaline
sort of leaves your body, andyou go, Whoa, and you feel a bit
woozy and light headed and cool,boom. It feels like you're in

(53:28):
the abyss of the nothingness ofwhat do I do now? Oh god, it's
over. I've lost it, or whateverit is it feels, or it can feel
like a crash. So help me find myway into the perspective that
it's a winding down, and it is agentleness, just like the

(53:50):
ramping up from the dark to thefull, that the ramping down from
the full, and then cycling intothe invitation to rest and
regenerate and regroup and catchup with the storms in the quiet
that to remind how can we remindourselves that we are in a

(54:10):
gradual transition?

Elizabeth Jurgensen (54:13):
Yeah, well, what really helps me is first to
acknowledge, on a somatic level,there can, there can be an
actual crash because of thelike, you just said, the
adrenaline, the cortisol, ofwhat, like, let's say it was a
big event, like, like, yourwedding or, or, right? The

(54:33):
exactly, the oxytocin, like,like, let's say it's the
fruition of an amazingrelationship, or you just went
on an amazing vacation with youryour loved one, and it's just,
oh my gosh, it's just the mostamazing, loving, yummy,
delicious time. And now you'rehome, and it does in it, and
yeah, there's an actualphysiological where the where

(54:54):
all of the the hormones and allof the chemicals in your body
are readjusting, and

Tess Masters (54:59):
it literally falls. Like, the DT,

Elizabeth Jurgensen (55:02):
like, exactly like, and so, yeah, you
kind of have to just see. Here'sthe other thing. When we're in
the fullness, we also want to,because we don't want to feel
the crash. We pretend like it'snot gonna

Tess Masters (55:18):
happen. Such an important point. Styling of
those particular feelings andemotions. I say we don't

Elizabeth Jurgensen (55:27):
prepare. We don't prepare. We don't create a
soft landing for ourselves afterthe fullness

Tess Masters (55:35):
that's important. Yeah. So how do we do that?

Elizabeth Jurgensen (55:40):
Well, again, one of the ways is what I
just described, when you startto feel that, that let down is
just acknowledging what are youfeeling in your body, what are
the sensations, and just givingthem room to just be. It's okay.
It's normal and natural,especially as the as the all the

(56:02):
hormones and all the chemicalsare readjusting themselves and
also allowing the feelings to bethere, to acknowledge, I'm a
little sad that it's over now.I'm really sad that was so
great. I'm even acknowledgingI'm not really looking forward
to the next phase.

Tess Masters (56:23):
Oh yeah, because you can go into judgment, but
because you're having feelingsthat are uncomfortable or you
perceive as negative, you're notallowed to have them, but
somehow you're ungrateful, thegratitude and those other
feelings can exist together,right? And especially power in
harnessing them together

Elizabeth Jurgensen (56:45):
exactly. And especially if the fullness
was around, like achievingsomething really important, or,
like I said, this beautifulvacation with a loved one, then
to feel sad or perhaps evenangry that it's over, that it
can't continue. We don't if wedon't allow those feelings,

(57:05):
they're going to get stuck inour bodies somehow, and they're
going to make the transition toequanimity a lot harder, and
they're going to make the letdown feel even worse. But you
notice, what our grandmotherMoon does is she does it slowly.
She wanes very slowly, a littlebit at a time and again. I don't

(57:28):
go out at night and look at themoon and go, Oh, she's waning.
She's got a little slivermissing. I don't think of her as
having something missing,because she's getting smaller.

Tess Masters (57:42):
I And again, that's our perception, because
of the way that she's orbitingthe Earth,
just as full as she always was,or she's exactly

Elizabeth Jurgensen (57:56):
the same size, exactly the same size.

Tess Masters (57:59):
I remember you and I barely over laughing when you
were sharing that with me.
And it's, as you were sayingearly on in our conversation,
it's so important to remindyourself that it's exactly the
same size, and it's all thethings. It's just the orbit,

Elizabeth Jurgensen (58:21):
right? And you're just, it's, you're just
seeing, you're just seeing adifferent slice of her. That's
all and that's just kind of evenin in our lives, as we move
through our lives, anything thatwe're doing or witnessing at the
moment, that's all we're seeingat that moment. It's, it may not
be the whole thing. It's justthat little portion that we're

(58:45):
that we're seeing, and even thefull moon, it looks full to us,
but we're only seeing one sideof her. She's a whole round
sphere that we're not we're notseeing the other side that is

Tess Masters (59:00):
so important. To acknowledge Yes.

Elizabeth Jurgensen (59:04):
So, you know, so I've really, I'm so,
I'm so grateful for this test,you know, over the last few
years, just having to sit withthis idea of, what does the moon
mean to me? What is myrelationship to time now that
I'm not able to the degree thatI was before, to be out there,

(59:26):
you know, hustling, I justsometimes have to laugh at
myself to be because it's like,Elizabeth, you're not seeing the
whole picture. You're only just,you know, just be, take comfort
in that in some ways, you canonly see what you can see, and
there's actually a lot that youcan't see that's just waiting
for you. And that's where thetrust comes in. So going into

(59:51):
the waning phase, she's justvery gently, just peeling off
layers and layers. And if welook at like, let's say we
achieved something. A big orthere was a there was a big
difficulty that we just that wegot through, that was the
fullness we got through adifficulty and but there's still

(01:00:11):
a resonance there. It's not likeit's completely over, like when
you go on a great vacation, forexample, you still talk about
it. You might talk about it forweeks afterwards. That's part of
the waning. What you're doing inthat phase is you're allowing
yourself to integrate theexperience, allowing it to
really become part of you, tosink into your tissues, to sink

(01:00:34):
into your psyche, andparticularly if it was something
difficult, this is the period oftime that you you can say, what
did I learn from this? What am Itaking away from this? How did
this change me? How am Idifferent now? How does this
help me to walk forward in adifferent way than I used to?

(01:00:58):
And you can't do that if youjust jump from thing to thing to
thing, if you're just alwaysfull and then jumping to the
next full moon and then the nextfull moon, you never learn the
lessons. You never reallyintegrate what you've learned.
That's That's why we make thesame mistakes over and over a
lot of the time, and

Tess Masters (01:01:17):
that's why people have heart attacks and strokes.
Exactly. I mean, your body cutsyou down

Elizabeth Jurgensen (01:01:22):
if right, it's right, right? That's why
people burn out emotionally andmentally, is because they're
just jumping from Full Moon tofull moon to full moon, and
they're never getting themselvesa chance, giving themselves a
chance to gradually wind down.Like, even if you think about
like, let's say you're cryingabout something, like you're

(01:01:45):
just sobbing over something youdon't just all of a sudden say,
Okay, I'm done. You know, it's agradual, it's a very gradual
crying less and less and lessand softer and softer and softer
until finally, you know yourbody goes okay, I'm done, I'm
done, I'm done. Or even ifyou've done something really

(01:02:11):
hard, physically, even if youcollapse down on the ground,
because, let's say you've done abig, hard run, and you've run
out of breath, and now you haveto stop and you just collapse on
the ground. You aren't justimmediately back to normal. You
lay there and you breathe hardfor a few for for quite a while,
and it takes a while for yourbreath to come back to its
normal rhythm, and it takes awhile for your body to relax

(01:02:36):
into its normal state. It isn'tinstant, and that's what the
waning phase is for. It's togive you a time to process and
to come back to the reset periodgradually, because if we did it
too fast, we would blow out ournervous systems first of all,

(01:02:58):
and it gives us a chance tosavor if it was something
wonderful that that happened, ifthat fullness of the Moon was
something wonderful, it gives usa time to continue to remember
and integrate and savor it andjust the deliciousness of the
thing that happened, where, ifwe're looking for the next
thing, we're not savoring. Andthat was a mistake I made for

(01:03:19):
years, because I was just,what's the next thing? What's
the next thing? I didn't evengive myself credit for what I

Tess Masters (01:03:25):
had just achieved. Yeah,

Elizabeth Jurgensen (01:03:29):
I didn't even acknowledge what I had just
been through. If it wassomething difficult. I was just
like, nope. On to the nextthing.

Tess Masters (01:03:38):
Yeah, this is so key that the celebration doesn't
just occur in the moment of thefall, right, but that
integration, that reflection,that remembering, that savoring
is still part of Yes, lingeringexperience that exactly use and

(01:04:01):
informs the next

Elizabeth Jurgensen (01:04:03):
experience exactly, exactly, and
particularly it gives us achance to I love that word
lingering. What lingers with meis maybe something that I do
want to take forward intowhatever the next thing is that
I pursue.

Tess Masters (01:04:20):
Yeah. Oh,

Unknown (01:04:22):
notice what lingers if we go

Tess Masters (01:04:24):
slow, yes, yes,

Elizabeth Jurgensen (01:04:27):
we can't notice what's lingering if we're
going too fast,

Tess Masters (01:04:33):
yeah, I want to ask you about your perspective,
about holding the wanting more,because the desire for more is
there and it will be there, andyou've really helped me see and

(01:04:56):
hold my wanting more, not as amonster. Or a demon or something
to exile, but something tobefriend, and that I get to
choose how I hold the wanting ofthe more, because I was viewing
it as a defect, as as as a formof greed that I always wanted

(01:05:19):
more and then I could never besatiated, you know, by that
achievement or that achievement.So can you share that?

Elizabeth Jurgensen (01:05:27):
Yeah, I'd be happy to the wanting more,
the word it brings up for me themost is yearning, which has a,
how do I want to put it? It hasa really sweet it has a love in

(01:05:54):
it, like when you think aboutwhen you yearn for your lover,
there's there's such a feelingof, of, it's, it's, it's really
hard to put into words, butit's, it's a, it's a that desire
is what's drawing you forward.It's an energy drawing you

(01:06:18):
forward, or drawing you outward.I hesitate even to use the word
forward, because we have such aconcept of time as always linear
and always existing on thehorizontal plane, when actually
time exists on a vertical planeas well. We can go up and down
within this particular moment.And so that yearning, that

(01:06:40):
desire is what carries us. It'sthe magic carpet that we're
flying on. But it doesn't meanthat we can't enjoy the ride
while we're on it.

Tess Masters (01:06:56):
Yeah, I do love that word yearning. Thank you
for that, because, yeah, doeshave a yummy quality about it,

Elizabeth Jurgensen (01:07:06):
yeah, yeah. And if we didn't have that
desire, if we didn't have thatyearning, we would stay stuck a
lot of the time. And that wassomething I really struggled
with. You know, going back tothe Dark Side of the Moon, I
didn't see that. Actually, I didhave yearning and desire. I
thought I was just nothing, thatI was just like in a numb phase

(01:07:30):
or something like that, whenreally there was yearning and
desire bubbling underneath thesurface. I just wasn't in touch
with it, because I didn't valuethat time period, to let the
discerning, the desire in theyearning bubble, kind of like
lava deep down in the mountain.You know it's you've got to let

(01:07:51):
that bubble and cook and createitself before it comes up,
before it comes up and out. AndI just didn't recognize that.
That's what was going on with mein the dark phase, and that I
needed to rest and allow that tohappen. Because that takes, that
actually takes a lot of a lot ofenergy. So I think what I had

(01:08:11):
said to you was, could you allowwhat you're naming as greed?
Could you name it as a desireand yearning and let that carry
you without expectation.

Tess Masters (01:08:26):
Yes, that is what you said. And it was, it was, it
was so helpful, and it reallyshifted things for me. So thank
you, and thank you for sharingthat with with everyone. Oh
gosh, Elizabeth, I could talk toyou about this all day. It's so

(01:08:48):
nourishing. It's such abeautiful way to look at, at at
life.

Elizabeth Jurgensen (01:08:58):
It's been a it's been a gift for me,
especially as I shift into myelder years, because there is a
there is a sense of on one levelof waning. There's still a lot
of full moons to come. And as Iwas saying in the beginning, we

(01:09:20):
can trust every month there'sgoing to be a full moon. So I
completely trust there's goingto be many full moons that will
show up in my life, but justwithin my lifespan, if you look
at it, I'm I'm heading more intothe into the waning phase, and
what I'm so grateful for Tess isto such a degree I've been able

(01:09:41):
to once I understood whatinternalized capitalism was, to
be able to recognize that thatwas a false thing that was
imposed on me, that that way ofbeing was taught to me, imposed
on me, expected of me. Me, andto be able to say that's not

(01:10:04):
really me, that's not reallywhere I want to go, and
particularly because I'm aperson that is has a has a gift
of recognizing what is thevaluable thing that I would like
to pursue in front of me withanother person on my own,

(01:10:25):
whatever that looks like, givingmyself that space and time to
practice that discernmentinstead of just grabbing
something for the sake of doingsomething. I'm so grateful to be
in that place, because, as youknow, the studying that I've
been doing the last severalyears around somatic
facilitation and embodiment workand all of that, I feel no need

(01:10:49):
to hang out a shingle and sayI'm a somatic practitioner. Come
and pay me money, you know, towork with me, to me, if that
shows up organically. Lovely,lovely, lovely, but I'm not
going to push for it. I'm notgoing to push because that's not

(01:11:09):
honoring that slow and steadywaxing fullness waning dark
time. It's it's pushing andforcing. And right now, the way
I feel is it is a gift just tobe a person who takes what they
know and shares it with thosethey love.

Tess Masters (01:11:33):
Oh, gosh, and hopefully we all can feel that
way, because one

Elizabeth Jurgensen (01:11:40):
of my greatest joys is just sitting
and talking to you and sharingour sharing our insights,
likewise,

Tess Masters (01:11:48):
the laying at
each opposing ends of notopposing the each end of the day
bed or curling up on the couchor sitting opposite in the
living room, or all the spacessitting outside near the
fountain, and all the placesthat we've had these beautiful,
nourishing conversations, andthat that is not only enough,

(01:12:09):
but it's everything. It's sobeautiful, and, and, and it has
been such a source ofnourishment in my life, and will
continue to be so. Thank you somuch for how you show up in the
world and how you're choosing toshow up in the world. I always
close every episode with thesame question. I'll ask it
within the context of thisconversation, when we don't feel

(01:12:35):
like we have what it takes tomake it happen, or that the
moment isn't enough. What do yousay to yourself?

Elizabeth Jurgensen (01:12:49):
Well, the first thing I say to myself, and
that I would say to anyone else,including you, is drop into your
body and notice what are thesensations in your body at this
moment, as you contemplate thatquestion, or as you contemplate
that dream that you have, andjust notice, What is your body

(01:13:16):
telling you through itssensations you Yeah. And another
thing I would say is just ask alot of questions of yourself,
starting with if I have thisdream and I'm feeling like I

(01:13:36):
don't have what it takes, maybeasking, Is this really my dream,
or was this a dream that wasgiven to me by somebody else? Or
is this a dream that I think I'msupposed to have? Or what other
versions of this dream might bea possibility, rather than just

(01:14:00):
the one that I'm focusing on,there can be a lot of ease in
recognizing that the dream maynot even be worse in the first
place, and in that case, you canjust drop it, and then you don't
have to feel bad, or that it'spartly you, but partly something
that was imposed on you, or thatmaybe you Have a very like we

(01:14:21):
talked about that there. Weoften define what is fullness.
We have a narrow range of whatdo we define that as? So the I
think the questioning is areally important part of the
process, and it's always been myexperience that when I allow,
when I allow myself, the spaceto ask those questions that

(01:14:44):
whatever needs to be learned,whatever the answer is, it just
comes on its own. It's when weclamp down on this is what it
must be, and I must make ithappen, and then get caught up
in the anxiety of. But I don'thave what it takes. And you know
all of that, that's when that'swhen we limit ourselves. It's in

(01:15:07):
the questioning that we actuallysee we have to ask the questions
or we're not going to get ananswer.

Tess Masters (01:15:16):
Yeah, I love you. I look forward to it.

Elizabeth Jurgensen (01:15:23):
I love you too. Tess, thank you so much for
inviting me. I could I too?Could just talk to you for hours
to do this again?

Tess Masters (01:15:34):
And we will do that. We certainly

Elizabeth Jurgensen (01:15:38):
will. It's truly been my pleasure. Yeah.