September 17, 2024 • 39 mins
Dr Sonia Henry's book "Put Your Feet in the Dirt, Girl," lit a flame for the creation of this podcast. The desire to get to know more about this woman's life was top on our list. And that we did!
We sit down with this physiotherapist turned rural GP to discuss how the COVID-19 pandemic redirected her life path from the hustle and bustle of city life for more meaning and connection in remote healthcare.
She was astounded by the breathtaking yet under-served regions of the Kimberleys and Northern New South Wales. Through her stories, Sonia reveals the stark disparities in healthcare access and systemic issues plaguing remote Indigenous communities.
We discuss the meaningful patient interactions that make GP work so unique, her passion for writing, and the balancing act of becoming a published author while practicing medicine full-time.
The episode wraps up with a deep dive into doctor wellbeing, particularly in rural settings. Sonia discusses the sense of community and connectedness often found in remote areas, in contrast to the isolation of urban environments.
Her heartfelt anecdotes shed light on the critical need for systemic changes to support healthcare professionals better.
This episode of It Takes Heart has CEO of cmr Sam Miklos hosting alongside Head of Talent and Employer Branding, Kate Coomber.
We Care; Music by Waveney Yasso
More about Sonia's Charity of Choice:
MBA NSW (Medical Benevolent Association of NSW)
The Medical Benevolent Association of NSW-ACT (MBA NSW-ACT) is a registered ACNC charity run by Doctors for Doctors and their families. We provide counselling, case management referral and short-term financial assistance through times of crisis, illness, accident, mental health conditions, grief and loss of income to help doctors in NSW and ACT to recover and return to well-being and independence. We also run preventative workshops and peer support programs as well as actively advocating to improve the systems and workplaces that doctors work in. Visit https://www.mbansw.org.au for more information.
Get to know cmr better!
Follow @ittakesheartpodcast on Instagram, @cmr | Cornerstone Medical Recruitment on Linked In, @cornerstonemedicalrec on TikTok and @CornerstoneMedicalRecruitment on Facebook.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sam Miklos (00:00):
We care for the land and sea.
Waveney Yasso (Acknowledgeme (00:06):
We care for the energy.
We care for our community.
Sam Miklos (00:14):
We care, welcome to.
It Takes Heart.
I'm Sam Miklos and I'm KateCoomba.
We hope you enjoy theseincredible stories of healthcare
professionals making adifference in communities across
Australia and beyond.
Through our conversations, welook to celebrate the spirit of
community and care.
(00:34):
We acknowledge the traditionalcustodians of the land who have
long practised and sharedancient methods of healing,
providing care and support fortheir communities with wisdom
passed down through generations.
Kate Coomber (00:46):
Join us as we explore what it truly means to
take heart.
Sam Miklos (00:55):
Yes, today.
Sonia Henry is a physio turnedrural GP and now the author of
two books.
Sonia is incredibly passionateabout improving healthcare
outcomes, particularly forremote Australia and First
Nations people.
She's also a huge advocate fordoctors' wellbeing.
Her most recent book, put yourFeet in the Dirt Girl, inspired
me to create this very podcast.
Sonia's honesty, humanity andcare for others shone through
(01:18):
the pages and we so connectedwith her desire for health
equity across Australia.
Welcome Sonia to the it TakesHeart podcast.
Sonia Henry (01:26):
Thanks, I really appreciate being on here.
Sam Miklos (01:28):
I've got to tell you you genuinely are like the
inspiration.
Kate and I had been talkingabout getting this podcast
started and we were sort of likewhat's it about?
What's it about?
And these elderly neighboursthat walk past my house every
morning, after like years ofliving in the neighbourhood,
stopped me and said what do youfor work?
And I said I have a medicalrecruitment business.
And they said have you everread this book?
(01:49):
Put your feet in the dirt, girl.
And I said no, I've not.
They said have you heard ofSonia Henry?
And I was like no, no, I don'tknow.
And the next day they walkedback past the house with your
book but they had it in thisziploc bag as if it was their
most precious book.
They owned to read this, youwill love it.
And I was like okay, andhonestly, like I couldn't stop
(02:11):
reading it.
And I said to Kate I was likethis is what we were trying to
get at.
It's the stories, like readingthe chapters of the places that
you went to.
They're the stories that wehear from our candidates all the
time and it's like that's whatit is.
It's just hearing the storiesand and getting people's um
awareness up around, like theseincredible communities that no
one would imagine is there, andand so many of our professionals
(02:32):
you know, here in sydney andbrisbane and melbourne.
I just don't know.
Kate Coomber (02:36):
So thank you for that and then it's been shared
around because I think just theum, the knowledge that can be
gained from all of your storiesfor our recruitment team and
being able to talk to candidatesreally well about the locations
and what to expect, I think isso valuable Definitely.
Sonia Henry (02:57):
No, thanks, it's a cool story actually.
Kate Coomber (03:00):
I like the fact that it was the elderly
neighbours too.
Sonia Henry (03:02):
Yeah, they just loved it Really cool.
No thanks, yeah, they justloved it Really cool.
No thanks, yeah, that's great.
Kate Coomber (03:07):
That's great to hear and I know in your book you
talked about wanting to go toEurope and you're joining us
from Europe today.
I guess is this the big tripyou wanted to do in COVID and
then didn't.
Sam Miklos (03:21):
I jumped in the Pilbara and said it's similar
Portugal.
Yeah, yeah, similar Portugal,right yeah?
Sonia Henry (03:26):
yeah, I mean, well, technically, western Australia
and Western Europe, the coast ofWestern Portugal, actually are
quite similar.
I had some photos for the booktaken, which was sort of amusing
it looked like I'm in WesternAustralia, but actually I was on
the Atlantic coast of Portugal,because the sun sets on the
same side here.
I think that's sort of funny.
No well, I have been to Europesince the book came out.
(03:47):
But yeah, it's good to be, it'sgreat to be back.
I mean, I'm quite a nomadicperson at heart.
I suppose I've always reallyenjoyed travelling.
Europe is, you know, it's abeautiful continent and there's
so many places to see.
So it was, you know, the wholething as it worked out that I
then became very passionateabout remote Australia.
It's not something that I wouldhave predicted for myself, but
(04:11):
that's the beauty of life, isn'tit?
Sam Miklos (04:13):
You never know where you're going to end up and what
does you know when you're nottravelling?
How do you divide your time?
Because I guess at the end ofthe book I can't remember where
you were, right at the very end,and then like, are you back in
Sydney?
Do you do your contractback-to-back?
Sonia Henry (04:26):
Well, I've actually continued to work remotely
since the book was finished.
I mean it was actually kind offunny, like my book was launched
I did all this national media,which I was quite surprised by
actually the amount of interestin the book, but you know, it
was really great.
But then I went straight tolike Broken Hill and then over
to Western Australia for threemonths and worked in like the
(04:47):
Kimberley and through the CoralCoast and yeah, so nothing
really changed in terms of whereI was working or what I was
doing, and then we had this tripplanned.
So, yeah, I still work.
I guess I have the kind of myfavourite spots that I go back
to now.
Where are they?
(05:08):
I really like the Kimberley partof Western Australia I mean I
think everyone does.
The scenery is reallyspectacular and it also parts of
North Western New South Walesyou know I'm familiar with and
whilst the landscape isn't quiteas startling as the Kimberley,
you know there's greatcommunities out there and it's
not so hard to get to.
I suppose Like a flight toDubbo and a two-hour drive is
(05:31):
not quite like crossing theentire country from Sydney and
there's lots of differentoptions.
I mean, I got a text from afriend the other day who wants
to now go and work.
You know relaying.
I hope I've had some part ininspiring that.
But yeah, I think you can workpretty much anywhere.
But now I've sort of lost thatneed for new adventures.
I suppose I've sort of got toreturn to the same place.
Sam Miklos (05:57):
And when you're in Sydney.
Sonia Henry (05:59):
Are you practising as well?
Well, I have a virtual job,which is very convenient.
It also ties in a bit to theremote stuff because it covers a
lot of the stuff we do iscovering nurse run small
hospitals in rural victoria whootherwise wouldn't be able to
see a doctor, um, so I guess Ihaven't really let go.
Yeah, I can do that fromanywhere.
(06:20):
So I do that part-time and thenI work when I plan to work in
between, probably three to sixmonths of the year in remote
hours.
Sam Miklos (06:28):
Fantastic.
So you started out as a physioand then went on to become a
doctor.
What was it that attracted youto healthcare in the first place
?
And then I guess why thetransition from physiotherapy to
medicine?
Sonia Henry (06:41):
So there's a few times I was like like, oh, my
mom wanted me to be a doctor I'mlike well, I'm amazing a lot of
people feel that way.
But no, I was also, to be honest, I was also very interested in
people like I liked the humanaspect of medicine.
I was never that sciencey atschool or anything like that
(07:02):
like I mean, I did well atscience and but I sort of my
passions were much more in thehumanities, like English history
.
You know I've always been likethat, but I like the human side
of it.
I like the diagnostic processas well.
It's quite satisfying, um, butultimately patients are all
people, just like doctors areall people.
So without recognizing patientsas human and understanding the
(07:26):
human story, I guess you can't.
It's hard to enjoy medicinewithout that and I think, if you
like that, you know lots ofdoctors have been created like
me and I think we all enjoy thatside of it.
And you know I met a lot ofgreat people in training and
that sort of thing.
So yeah, I guess that's how itall began.
Physio wise, I was veryinterested in sport when I was
(07:48):
growing up, like that was prettysporty and I wanted to be a
football, but a physio sorry,it's early here I wanted to be a
physio for like a sport teamand all that stuff, and I did
that for a while but it wasn'tas uh, glamorous as as what,
what I had envisaged.
And then actually, when Istarted medicine, I ended up
(08:08):
deferring for a year because Iwasn't really sure what I wanted
to do and I was going to go toEurope and I had a job lined up
with an opportunity to beEnglish ballet company.
I mean, this is many years agonow.
Yeah, yeah, it was cool.
Actually it was through a girlI knew, through football,
ironically, that I was doingwith the different Sydney and I
(08:30):
broke my arm like three daysbefore I left to try and ski the
test to get onto the ski patrol.
I didn't thread broke becauseI'm a keen skier and I obviously
couldn't work because I had abroken arm.
So the uni sort of rang me whenI was in Europe and we're like
well, what's your plan?
(08:51):
Are you going to come back?
Are you going to stay in Europe?
And I I was going to sort ofsay, look, I'm done, I think
I'll just keep it up.
But I then randomly went backto the ski resort in Switzerland
and met a Spanish doctor whohad gone there for a mountain
rescue course and she her nameis Sarah, I still remember and
she's told me all this coolstuff you could do with medicine
and all the places you couldsee, and she's like I think you
should go back and that's sortof what decided um how I would
(09:11):
return and then it all happenedlike that I love when you can
have such key people in yourlife that really do change the
direction of what yeah, I'venever forgotten her.
Isn't that funny.
You know that you met thisrandom Spanish woman, but she
was so nice and so, um, laterallack of ego, and and you had a
very interesting life and um,and then I thought I could have
(09:34):
a life like that and I sort ofhave.
Yeah, I was just gonna say,yeah, she's been my beacon all
this time, but yeah, that's sortof how it happened.
Kate Coomber (09:44):
I love the um, the human element of what you're
talking about.
I think we've had some guestson on the series who really talk
about the human interactionwith their patients are really
the the most memorable momentsfor them throughout their career
, not necessarily always theclinical decision they made or
something like that.
It's really having those, thosehuman interactions that really,
I guess, drives the purpose andpassion oh, definitely, yeah,
(10:09):
definitely.
Sonia Henry (10:09):
I mean I don't think there's many jobs where
you do have as much humaninteraction, particularly being
gp, because I mean I'm seeingthe patient awake most of the
time you, um, you are able tointeract with them on a more
normal level, as in they're notlying on quadras in a bed and
you're having to interact withthem on a more normal level, as
in they're not lying unconsciousin a bed and you're having to
do something really dramatic orwhatever.
(10:30):
You sort of are able to talkwith them about their life, and
I think that that real window ismost unique to general practice
.
Sam Miklos (10:39):
Absolutely.
Kate Coomber (10:43):
And I guess, how did being an author come about?
Sonia Henry (10:47):
I always wanted to write books.
Yeah, yeah, that's what Iwanted to do my whole life,
really.
I mean, that's what I imaginedfor myself.
You know, I wanted to be awriter, but like my parents said
, you know, writers starve,doctors don't starve but um
sometimes writers don't starveat all, but not quite there yet
in terms of being able to justwrite full-time.
(11:07):
The dream, uh, no, um, and Ialways liked words and I really
liked books, and I saw a bookthat I suppose a bit of another
world to escape into.
Um, and it was another thing, Iguess another window into a
different place.
Um, and then I, it's very hardto become a published author, so
that took many years to finallyget a publishing contract, but
(11:30):
uh, then it did, and you knowI've had two books published,
none of which have been easy.
I mean, it's a tough roadwriting book and working
full-time but um, you know you'dhave to be crazy to do it, as
someone said.
Sam Miklos (11:41):
But then people are crazy, so they do it.
A third in the mix, so weexpect yeah, well, I'm trying.
Sonia Henry (11:49):
You've got to go into like medical crime fiction,
but I've only written 10 000words because I've been kind of
just too busy enjoying europe,so but that's definitely my,
I've got to get back to it so,um, for those who have not read
your book that are hearing thistoday, can you tell us how you
went from working as a GP inSydney to then exploring remote
(12:10):
medicine?
Sam Miklos (12:12):
How did that come about?
Sonia Henry (12:12):
Yeah, so I was meant to be.
I'd finished my exams andeverything, like you know.
I finally got my fellowship andeverything was, you know,
pretty good, and then I haddecided to go to Dublin.
I had a job lined up in Irelandand then the international
(12:37):
borders shut because of COVID,literally like three days after,
I had sort of sort of a littlebit stuck out.
I mean it had been a work inprogress, yeah.
And then, you know, I was sortof sort of a little bit stuck
out.
I mean it had been a work inprogress, yeah, yeah, um.
And then I, you know, I sort ofalso, at this point in my life,
I just wanted to really get away, um, for lots of different
reasons, and then I was reallystuck and it was a terrible
(13:00):
feeling to be so stuck becauseyou sort of I mean everyone felt
like that during COVID.
But it's such a strangesituation, I think, for all of
us, but particularly I felt verysorry for people who, you know,
for whatever reason, want toget away and want to do
something different.
You know, there's always thismoment you're like we're like
this has happened, all that'shappened, and I want to go
overseas, or I want to go hereand you suddenly just can't, and
(13:20):
but anyway.
So luckily, being a GP, I didhave the capacity to work.
So I looked at pretty much likejobs, remote Australia.
I rang a few agencies and thena job.
I saw a job that said he was asolo doctor in the Pilbara
region of Western Australia.
Um yeah, I was like, oh yeah,that looks pretty far away and
(13:41):
then I googled it and it lookedlike really far away.
And then it kind of feels like afew days later I was on a plane
landing in Perth, which wasbizarre in itself, Obviously
flying in the time of COVID isreally.
Sam Miklos (13:53):
And then the next thing it's like Perth, like it's
.
Oh yeah, and flying in the.
Kate Coomber (13:58):
It was like lots of different countries, right it
was.
Yeah, it was really weird Stateto state it was like we were
being run.
Yeah.
Sonia Henry (14:06):
Yeah, it was very.
It was all you know talking.
You know you really hear aboutthe borders in terms of
Australia right, we don't reallyhave more land, we're a giant
island.
Right, we don't have bordersper se, but it all felt very
kind of World War II.
I remember this talk aboutborders and land and the
separation between this stateand that state.
(14:26):
It was really strange.
So that was weird in itself.
And then getting obviously intothe middle of the Western
Australian games, it was evenweirder.
But you know, it was amazingreally.
Sam Miklos (14:38):
Did you feel, you know, coming from practising in
Sydney to then the Pilbara, youknow, in those first few weeks
of work there did you feelclinically equipped?
You know, it's sometimes thethings that you're faced with
and it's such a different role,in some ways, to be the solo
doctor.
Sonia Henry (14:55):
Well, I mean, that's a good question, like I
suppose I didn't feel, I feltlike my skill set was was solid,
but I felt that it was theaccess to imaging and the access
to specialist care.
And then also the realizationof this sort of mythical, uh
(15:17):
idea of there'll be air support.
You know, they kept sayingthere'll be air support.
So you kind of imagine orconceptualize that there's this
sort of fleet of planes arrivingif there's a major problem and
the patient can be sort ofwhisked off.
But the reality is it's notreally like that.
I mean, you know, the, the airsupport, in whichever place
you're in whether that's likecare flight or rfgs or you know
(15:39):
there's a few options is thatthey're quite understaffed and
they don't have enough planesand then they're very busy.
So you know, the air supportisn't probably going to get
there as quickly as what youhoped, it's not going to run at
all.
So that was a real, that was ashock.
So there was sort of like thislow level oh, it's very hard to
(15:59):
see a specialist or a patienthaving to wait, and unless they
can get to Perth.
But then you had your moreacute scenarios where you sort
of realized that you could doyour best, but I mean, without
the right equipment and theright sort of things, that if
they were to go wrong, thatwould be very difficult.
Um, and it was, you know, likea few sort of hairy things
(16:21):
happened and I sort of got outof there before anything really
catastrophic happened, but sixweeks after I left, something
did, you know?
And yeah, like there's nosugarcoating, that aspect of it.
Sam Miklos (16:32):
How did you find, you know, going from Sydney, the
razzle and dazzle of Sydney, tosome of those remote locations
that you worked?
Did you find that a shock inyourself?
You know some of those towns,like the one, iga, or like the
accommodation, even amenities,yeah, I mean sometimes there's
not a big club, like that's whatit's really like.
(16:55):
I guess the things you maybelike they still had the rose,
but it was renamed, I think thepink line.
Sonia Henry (17:02):
You, lion, you know , yeah, the Pink Lion, I still
call it that actually sometimes.
Yeah, I think it was.
Look, I'm pretty flexible and Iunderstood that I wasn't going
to, you know, the Sheraton, likeit was.
Yes, not the Four Seasons, butI found the landscape very
beautiful, you know, and I'm nota particularly precious person.
(17:23):
So some places were better thanothers in terms of
accommodation and that kind ofthing.
And you know, you knew you weregoing into the outback, so you
didn't really expect there to belike a cold.
Yeah, I had that idea.
But then some places I went toafter that, well, the remoteness
I mean even the Pilbara isextraordinarily remote, like you
have no concept of the spaceand the distances until you're
(17:48):
there.
I think there's a line in mybook where I said you haven't
seen land until you've seen someof the stations in WA, and that
is, I think, still true.
Kate Coomber (17:57):
Like I've seen land in New South Wales.
Those drive out there with yourphone nearly going flat and you
know those things are preparingpeople flat and you know those
things into that concept.
Sonia Henry (18:10):
You know I was all a bit slapdash.
Yeah, I should have lookingback.
I should have.
That's because a few of ourreviews in my book I don't
normally read reviews, it'sactually reviews have been very
positive.
But you're kind of nasty, like Ican't believe she went out
there so unprepared.
But I'm like you got no idea.
Like being a doctor you'realways unprepared.
Like I mean, these people seemto think we have this kind of
(18:30):
like hr setup where there's likethese inductions.
I'm like let's just try and bea junior doctor, sweetheart.
Like I feel like running backto us like the whole thing's
just a bit all over the place.
But yeah, I mean, was Irealized how remote it was, but
yeah, the isolation of the, thered earth and the filbert just
(18:51):
stretching for miles, but it'salso spectacular.
So you kind of are in this sortof terrible fear like oh no,
I'm really going nowhere to alsothis real appreciation for this
incredible old place thatyou're in, um, but yeah,
obviously I mean when I workedthrough the territory and stuff
as well, that that was my most.
I think I've never seen suchconditions like that in a first
(19:15):
world country, you know, inaustralia.
That really shocked me.
Kate Coomber (19:18):
Yeah, I'd love it yeah, sure, I think that some of
our audience may not reallyeven understand.
I think there's the location ofbeing remote and the landscapes
around you, but then the peopleand the communities that are
there and the differences Iguess of then being sent to.
You know hundreds of kilometreswest of Alice Springs or you
(19:41):
know very, very remote whereyou're in these communities,
like the access to healthcare.
The access and the type of careand working in Indigenous health
specifically.
Can you maybe share some realdifferences that you've seen and
what is it like?
Sonia Henry (20:03):
I mean because I worked in the Pilbara, which was
a mining kind of.
I mean there were lots ofactually First Nations or
Indigenous patients there, butit wasn't because it was a
mining.
There was a bit more money, itwas a bit less well, it was
still very remote but it didn'tfeel as neglected, I guess.
And then I went to work acrossback over to the east and I
(20:24):
worked in northwest New SouthWales in a.
It was a town but it had beenwhat was called a community.
So it only been the last twodecades and you transition from
being an Aboriginal community toa functional town.
For people who don't know, whenthey use this term community,
it's almost like a euphemism tosome extent.
Some communities are very niceand the people have, you know,
(20:46):
quite good quality of life, butacross the board they're kind of
remnants of missions orreserves when the First Nations
people were taken away and putinto these setups and they've
sort of I guess it's persistedsince that time.
So the whole origins of thatwere pretty bad to begin with,
right yeah, um but yeah, butthen this town that I lived in,
(21:10):
it was the health outcomes thatreally shocked me.
Um, it was the, the diabetesand the.
I mean, my first patient therewas like a 26 year old who had a
blood sugar of 32.
Um, and you know there's a lotof ignorance still around
aboriginal health in australia,where people do say this really
annoys me.
I mean, not only is it drivenby racial intent, I think a lot
(21:31):
of the time it's also incrediblyignorant.
When people look at aboriginalpeople, you know it's the
alcohol or the diet, thesetropes who it's?
It's their fault or it's yourfault, you know?
Um, but I mean, the thing isthat, simply, physiologically,
at 26, even if your diets arecooling which I'm not saying
necessarily this patient wasyour body regulates and you, you
(21:54):
can process and you don't endup with raging hormone and
diabetes.
Yeah, um, and sure you did, as Isaw lots of young people
because of this.
You know, sort of previousposition to that which was what
happens when you're forciblyremoved from your land and then,
over generations, areessentially force-fed the wrong
foods and then you get to thiscorrect point where but it
(22:15):
wasn't just like, it wasn't justlike these textbook statistics,
like I still remember callingmy dad one night and like the,
even the blood results weredifferent.
You know this sort ofpro-inflammatory response in
grey's white.
They'll raise inflammatorymarkers that there was no real
explanation for.
Like I had a friend actuallywho had like really low ferritin
(22:38):
but incredibly high hemoglobin,which is sort of I can't
remember quite the details, butit was physiologically almost
like impossible to the pointwhere the specialist at rpa got
involved and it was like youkind of see this stuff in
sometimes in nepal, like in highaltitude climates, and I was
like, are you related to it innepalese?
just like I think so, dog, likeI mean it was.
People don't understand medicalissues that are facing ab
(23:05):
people in Australia.
And then couple that with beingin the middle of absolutely
nowhere with other stuff, likethere was no bus to get to the
nearest major place, which is450 kilometers away.
Um, there's no ambulanceservice out there in terms of
New South Wales ambulanceservice, that spot.
So you can't just call anambulance if someone is, you
have to argue with some airsupport somewhere and a computer
(23:28):
to come and get the patient.
Like the whole thing was yeah.
So I rang dad and I was like Ican't believe that there's
people here who are sufferinglike this.
You know it was.
I was in tears, it was reallyshocking, and I had to speak to
a dermatologist about othersyphilis, a lot of syphilis
because of skin changes,secondary dyslexia, which is
also pretty rare to see, and hesaid he's seen leprosy out there
(23:51):
.
Wow, and it's certainly in theterritory, which is unbelievable
.
So that was very difficult toget my head around.
Sam Miklos (23:59):
And from what you've seen, you know, what do you
think can be done to bridge thatgap?
Like it's such a big gap that Ithink, like you're unaware of?
Sonia Henry (24:09):
Yeah, I think it's probably acknowledgement of the
fact that there is this gap andthere's lots of things inside
the gap.
We found out that the gap isthis empty chasm, but actually
it's full of history and denialand lots of different things.
You know, we've got a lot ofmoney in Australia, particularly
like the mining companies andall our minerals, that sort of
(24:31):
thing.
Like actually we could havebetter health services if we
really made a brave decision.
Yeah, but we don't.
You know there's a lot of.
It's so complicated and it's sodifficult.
But if you speak to Aboriginalpeople, it's not really that
complicated.
They're sort of like you know,we just want more doctors out
here, we want better hospitals,we want cheaper food yeah, stuff
(24:53):
like that.
There's shops out there thatfood prices are really jacked up
so you can't really just go toColes and buy all your veggies
because you're dealing withcosts.
It's like this forgotten partof Australia.
You know, quite startling torealise that that existed within
my own country.
Sam Miklos (25:11):
You know, when you've gone into any of the new
communities.
How do you build trust?
You know, how do you when theysay, hey, I'm coming in, and if
they haven't had a doctor for awhile, or they've had, you know
turnover of doctors, yeah, how?
Sonia Henry (25:27):
do you get that trust?
I mean, I haven't reallystruggled so much with that just
because, like I think I'm apretty kind of average person,
in the sense that I don't reallythink I'm better than the
patients, or like I've alwayshad a good ability to kind of
merge with the place that I'm inand with the people.
And I think patients are smart,like they're instinctive, they
kind of pick up on whetheryou're going to be like you know
(25:48):
, I'm the doctor in the ivorytower and you're my patient,
because, realistically, you'rein a place that is so different
to where you've come from.
They're going to teach you moreabout it than what you're
probably going to teach them.
And also, I think I was sorelieved to have someone there
who actually listened to them.
Yeah, you know, and I wasinterested in them and I was
interested in their stories andtheir conditions and how to help
(26:09):
them.
So, yeah, sometimes you cancome into towns and people can
be a bit reserved, but thatdidn't take long for me for that
to change and I found it veryeasy to make friends.
And that's what I liked aboutthis kind of place is that
everyone was actually verywelcoming at the end.
Sam Miklos (26:27):
Yeah, I was going to ask you that Did you find you
made networks, you know, movingaround from a couple of weeks
here, a couple of weeks there?
Sonia Henry (26:32):
Yeah, yeah, definitely, I'm still friends
with them today.
So, yeah, like it wasn't.
I don't think that for me, interms of socialising, people say
, oh, you get lonely, so someplaces are a bit different to
others, but places like theKimberley through WA, and yeah,
I mean, I've got friends allover Australia now, so I think
(26:53):
that sometimes it's more funthan being in Sydney a lot of
the time.
Kate Coomber (26:57):
Yeah, we've got people who say that, that
sometimes when they're in thecities people are isolated.
Now and sometimes when they goout more rural, remote there's
such a connected community outthere sometimes and people are
making maybe more of an effortto get to know people and
they're feeling more connectedthan than when they're in their
city oh, absolutely like.
Sonia Henry (27:17):
I think that I mean particularly if you wanted a
bit of a change as the gp or,you know, dr goodman, from
emergency or gp, pretty much allones you can do it so easily.
But if you wanted a bit of achange as a GP or a doctor who
would move around maybeemergency or GP, pretty much all
the ones you can do it soeasily.
But if you were so like Ireally need a change.
I'm sort of at this point wheremy life's stagnating a bit, for
whatever reason.
I think working remotely issuch a great thing to do.
(27:39):
I mean not only for the factyou're actually helping people,
but it's good for your ownmedicine and your own personal
growth, I guess.
Kate Coomber (27:46):
It sounds like you're probably testing your
skill set when you're in some ofthese locations at times.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, do youthink?
Sometimes, when you're in theselocations, when you're not
supported with all of theresources, your skill set is
expanding constantly?
Sonia Henry (28:02):
Yeah, it is, and look, that part of it is not.
I've never been a hero or acowboy doctor who's like got off
on the remoteness and how hardit is, and I mean, all I saw was
how unfair it was that thesepatients couldn't access this
stuff that everyone could accessin cities, um, and that's quite
scary.
But look, the help is there ifyou ask for it it's.
Look, it's not.
I agree, it's not like you canjust have someone run down and
(28:26):
help you from there, butactually you'd be surprised.
It's a and you can pick andchoose where you go, like you
know places, like on an hour atthe hospital with lots of
doctors, I had lots ofcolleagues where I worked and it
was very collegial and you knowyou, actually there was
education and that sort of thing.
So you can, kind of you canwork your way up to some of the
(28:47):
more remote locations and also,simply because you're a geek,
there's lots of choice.
You don't have to go somewhereif you think it's going to be
too hard and too dangerous, andthat would be.
My advice, of course, is toalways sort of figure out, maybe
ask some more pointed questions, which perhaps I should have
done.
Kate Coomber (29:03):
I think you're clearly very adaptable and I
think not everybody is adaptableand flexible.
Sonia Henry (29:08):
No, no yeah.
Kate Coomber (29:09):
For anyone listening who thinks that maybe
this could be a good option forthem.
I'd really be thinking aboutwhere they're comfortable, what
do they need surrounding them,and then for someone to maybe
map them to the right locationand health service time in their
career, and you know, they canevolve and go from there.
But there might be a bit of astepping stone to that.
Sonia Henry (29:30):
Yeah, and if you're going for an agency, you need
to have some really frankdiscussions, maybe speak to
previous doctors multipleprevious doctors who've been
there, and also because it'stotally different sitting in an
office sending people places toactually being on the ground
there working there.
Oh yeah, I don't want people tothink, oh, everything in remote
(29:52):
Australia is so great and sowonderful.
I mean, that's like afictionalised version of the
story.
It's not like that, but thereare, like I said, there's lots
of different options.
Sam Miklos (30:03):
Sonia, what about you know the wellbeing piece,
for you know you're sopassionate about wellbeing for
doctors.
Can you talk to us about whatwellbeing looks like?
What is it in wellbeing thatyou think we really need to be
more aware of?
Sonia Henry (30:19):
I think, look, doctor wellbeing has been a bit
of a problem for years.
I mean, I don't really thinkit's any better.
I wrote an article in 2017,anonymously, called there's
Something Rotten Inside theMedical Profession, which is a
response to a Spanish doctordying by suicide very young
doctors and there was lots ofresponses to that and everyone
went crazy and you know, thehealth minister sent me some
(30:44):
response to my open letter and Ididn't know it was me,
obviously.
I just read it on the train.
It was like, you know, we'reall really this is really bad,
but I'm on a medical councilcalled New South Wales Medical
Benevolent Association, which isa council that exists for
doctors in distress yeah,totally confidential and stuff,
and you know anyone can ring up,but the amount of calls we're
(31:05):
getting is only increasing.
Wow, there's been lots ofrecent suicides of doctors in
the last 12 months.
That we sort of.
Yeah, I think hospital trainingprograms are still very
difficult.
Being a GP is also tough.
You know like the media lovesto jump on the backs of Gps all
the time and which all of thesethings create, these vortexes of
(31:30):
um, stress and difficulty.
Um, and you know there needs tobe lots of changes when it
comes to looking after thewell-being of doctors, but they
haven't quite got there yet.
There are some good initiatives.
I think we need, you know, toopen up the training positions I
I think austral Australia alsoneeds to change its attitude
towards doctors, in a sense ofinstead of.
(31:51):
There's a sort of like we allneed doctors, but we're also
like beating doctors downbecause we're perceived to be
these really rich people inivory towers, which is so far
from the truth.
I mean your 60-year-old plasticsurgeon from 30 years ago maybe
, but not the case these days.
So much.
Kate Coomber (32:08):
It's that small percentage that they might be
focusing on there, rather thanthe person.
Sonia Henry (32:14):
Yeah, exactly.
Kate Coomber (32:15):
Because we want to be attracting people into this
profession right and making surethat it can be a well-supported
, long-lasting career.
Sonia Henry (32:24):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And you know what?
Like I always say to him I doquite a lot of talks for medical
students.
I say the thing about generalpractice.
I mean, look, people want to dowhatever they want to
specialise in, but the greatthing about being a GP is you
can create the life that youwant, which is actually much
more important than what peopleunderstand.
I mean, when you're 19 or 25and you're in medical school and
you're like, well, this isgoing to be this, that or the
(32:46):
rest of it, but life changes andevolves and flexibility, good
financial remuneration and alsothe ability to have work
whenever you need work is quiteamazing, I think.
And I've got some friends whohave quite high-powered jobs in
London and that sort of thing,but they're nowhere near the job
(33:09):
stability that you have as ageneral practitioner.
Sam Miklos (33:12):
When you talk about changes that need to be made.
What are some of the changesthat you think could be made to
just create better wellbeing forthe doctors?
Sonia Henry (33:22):
Oh, they need to be much more practical.
Like I said, they need to openup the training spots for the
colleges.
So then people can't be stuckbeing unaccredited registrars
for like 10 years and then stillgetting onto a training program
I mean stuff like that.
Yeah, and there needs to be.
I think we also need toacknowledge the gp shortage in
australia, like the governmentsneed to acknowledge it instead
of sort of because they don'twant to do gp training because
(33:44):
they're paid less during theregistrar years and in the
hospital.
I think they are changing someof that.
Someone said I think my dadsent me an article that
queensland and victoria arechanging their awards or
something.
They need to do that in newsouth wales as well.
Um, I think we need toacknowledge we've got a really
severe shortage in australia ofdoctors and no one can replace
doctors, that we've got all thissort of pharmacy prescribing
(34:06):
nurse practitioners which youknow, nurse practitioners are
great.
I'm not to be honest yeah, butthey're not.
It's not like being a doctor.
You don't have that kind oftraining and I always say to
people who should have wouldcounter that I'm like well,
you're perfectly welcome to goand spend 50 000 years at wall
and then 10 years training anddoing a very expensive
fellowship, like no one'sstopping you from doing that.
(34:28):
And until you do it, you don'tknow the breadth of knowledge
that you require.
Um, and I think we need as acountry and as a government is
to acknowledge the shortage andto actually either you know, fix
a pay structure, makeconditions more attractive if we
want doctors to work remotely,we have to have much better
infrastructure out there reallyeither fix a pay structure, make
conditions more attractive.
If we want doctors to workremotely, we have to have much
(34:50):
better infrastructure out therereally to attract people
long-term.
I've been interviewed byregional health ministers and
all of these things are.
What people want is practicalsolutions, and that's usually
driven by money and politics.
Whether that will change changeI don't know, but in the
meantime you can still enjoy avery satisfying life as a doctor
(35:11):
.
But you just have to be awareof these issues and work your
way around them and it soundslike find the right place for
you and varying yes, it's asubject to where you are, what
the health services, what theresources are, and find what
it's going to be very bespokefor everyone.
Yeah, and then you have thecapacity to find that bespoke
(35:31):
experience if you like.
It's funny, we went bespoke inrelation to remote outback
Australia.
Sam Miklos (35:37):
I'm not listening to you out there.
I know this is the word bespoke.
It's a funny word to use.
It's so funny.
Kate Coomber (35:44):
I'ming Australia.
Sonia Henry (35:48):
I think friends and stuff who work in Broome and
live there and they'll livethere for the rest of their
lives and they love it, and Ican say, wow, broome is a
fantastic place and there's lotsof people, oh, it's fantastic.
Yeah, so you know, you can makeit work very easily.
Kate Coomber (36:06):
You just have to have the guts to kind of step
outside your comfort zone, Iguess definitely.
Well, look for every um guestthat's coming on the show.
We're raising a bit ofawareness for a charity of your
choice and donating 500 also.
What's the charity for youtoday, sonia?
Sonia Henry (36:17):
well.
I mean, I've actually alreadyspoken about it.
So my charity of choice is thatis the council, that I'm a
board, not a board member, acouncil member.
Or we don't have a board, not aboard member, a council member.
Or if we don't have a board,it's the Medical Benevolence
Association of New South Wales,which is quite a I hate the word
secretive, but it's justbecause it's been around for 150
years, so their marketinghasn't been that great.
(36:40):
I mean, our new executiveofficer is excellent, but it's a
council of doctors, somespecialists, some gps also.
Gps are specialists I shouldnot say that um and they've been
around for years where theydevote.
It's a totally not-for-profitcharity, um, and we have
meetings every month where we umjust go through cases of
(37:01):
doctors or family members ofdoctors who have called us up,
who are in real distress, be bethat financial, emotional.
The council actually providesreally practical solutions.
We fundraise, we have socialworkers on board, we have a
financial advisor.
Certainly, if you hear some ofthe stories you hear, you
realise that doctors aren'tliving this dream life that
(37:21):
everyone thinks that they are,and it's a great cause.
It's totally managed just bythese.
I think there's about 10 of us12 of us on the council and no
one's paid or anything.
It's literally just a councilto help doctors who feel they
have nowhere else to turn.
Sam Miklos (37:38):
Yeah, what a fabulous show.
Thank you yeah it's great.
Sonia Henry (37:41):
It's a great organisation.
I'm very proud to be part of it.
I was just going to say I'mproud to be part of that.
Sam Miklos (37:46):
Yeah, it's really great to hear that and hopefully
from today we'll be able toshine a little bit of awareness
as well, like where you say it'ssecretive, like to get a little
bit of marketing in thatdirection, even with our team
making sure that they know to beletting our doctors know that.
Sonia Henry (37:59):
um yeah, um well, I think there's a great, there's
a queensland branch, there's atouring branch, but um we have
to communicate with the branches.
But louise, who's thatexecutive officer?
She?
Sam Miklos (38:11):
knows all that stuff .
Fantastic, sonia.
Thank you so much for your time.
It's been great to speak withyou.
We both really enjoyed the bookand, um, we so appreciate you
jumping on it.
It's like 6 am or something foryou there, like you like.
Oh, that's so fresh.
We really can't wait to see thethird book and oh thanks.
Sonia Henry (38:30):
I think it's been great.
Thanks very much for thetalking.
Kate Coomber (38:33):
Good luck with the podcast well, thank you, you
must pop in.
Sonia Henry (38:38):
Oh, I will I like, I like bruce benton great town
um.
It's really come on in the last10, 15 years.
Kate Coomber (38:45):
It really has.
Sonia Henry (38:47):
So many cool restaurants and yeah, no, no,
definitely no.
Thanks very much I reallyappreciate it.
Sam Miklos (38:53):
Fantastic, thank you .
Enjoy your trip.
Thanks for listening.
Don't forget to share, rate andreview.
This allows us to reach morepeople and share more incredible
stories.
Click the follow or subscribebutton to ensure you never miss
an episode.
We care for the land and sea.
Waveney Yasso (Acknowledgeme (00:06):
We care for the energy.
We care for our community.
Sam Miklos (00:14):
We care, welcome to.
It Takes Heart.
I'm Sam Miklos and I'm KateCoomba.
We hope you enjoy theseincredible stories of healthcare
professionals making adifference in communities across
Australia and beyond.
Through our conversations, welook to celebrate the spirit of
community and care.
(00:34):
We acknowledge the traditionalcustodians of the land who have
long practised and sharedancient methods of healing,
providing care and support fortheir communities with wisdom
passed down through generations.
Kate Coomber (00:46):
Join us as we explore what it truly means to
take heart.
Sam Miklos (00:55):
Yes, today.
Sonia Henry is a physio turnedrural GP and now the author of
two books.
Sonia is incredibly passionateabout improving healthcare
outcomes, particularly forremote Australia and First
Nations people.
She's also a huge advocate fordoctors' wellbeing.
Her most recent book, put yourFeet in the Dirt Girl, inspired
me to create this very podcast.
Sonia's honesty, humanity andcare for others shone through
(01:18):
the pages and we so connectedwith her desire for health
equity across Australia.
Welcome Sonia to the it TakesHeart podcast.
Sonia Henry (01:26):
Thanks, I really appreciate being on here.
Sam Miklos (01:28):
I've got to tell you you genuinely are like the
inspiration.
Kate and I had been talkingabout getting this podcast
started and we were sort of likewhat's it about?
What's it about?
And these elderly neighboursthat walk past my house every
morning, after like years ofliving in the neighbourhood,
stopped me and said what do youfor work?
And I said I have a medicalrecruitment business.
And they said have you everread this book?
(01:49):
Put your feet in the dirt, girl.
And I said no, I've not.
They said have you heard ofSonia Henry?
And I was like no, no, I don'tknow.
And the next day they walkedback past the house with your
book but they had it in thisziploc bag as if it was their
most precious book.
They owned to read this, youwill love it.
And I was like okay, andhonestly, like I couldn't stop
(02:11):
reading it.
And I said to Kate I was likethis is what we were trying to
get at.
It's the stories, like readingthe chapters of the places that
you went to.
They're the stories that wehear from our candidates all the
time and it's like that's whatit is.
It's just hearing the storiesand and getting people's um
awareness up around, like theseincredible communities that no
one would imagine is there, andand so many of our professionals
(02:32):
you know, here in sydney andbrisbane and melbourne.
I just don't know.
Kate Coomber (02:36):
So thank you for that and then it's been shared
around because I think just theum, the knowledge that can be
gained from all of your storiesfor our recruitment team and
being able to talk to candidatesreally well about the locations
and what to expect, I think isso valuable Definitely.
Sonia Henry (02:57):
No, thanks, it's a cool story actually.
Kate Coomber (03:00):
I like the fact that it was the elderly
neighbours too.
Sonia Henry (03:02):
Yeah, they just loved it Really cool.
No thanks, yeah, they justloved it Really cool.
No thanks, yeah, that's great.
Kate Coomber (03:07):
That's great to hear and I know in your book you
talked about wanting to go toEurope and you're joining us
from Europe today.
I guess is this the big tripyou wanted to do in COVID and
then didn't.
Sam Miklos (03:21):
I jumped in the Pilbara and said it's similar
Portugal.
Yeah, yeah, similar Portugal,right yeah?
Sonia Henry (03:26):
yeah, I mean, well, technically, western Australia
and Western Europe, the coast ofWestern Portugal, actually are
quite similar.
I had some photos for the booktaken, which was sort of amusing
it looked like I'm in WesternAustralia, but actually I was on
the Atlantic coast of Portugal,because the sun sets on the
same side here.
I think that's sort of funny.
No well, I have been to Europesince the book came out.
(03:47):
But yeah, it's good to be, it'sgreat to be back.
I mean, I'm quite a nomadicperson at heart.
I suppose I've always reallyenjoyed travelling.
Europe is, you know, it's abeautiful continent and there's
so many places to see.
So it was, you know, the wholething as it worked out that I
then became very passionateabout remote Australia.
It's not something that I wouldhave predicted for myself, but
(04:11):
that's the beauty of life, isn'tit?
Sam Miklos (04:13):
You never know where you're going to end up and what
does you know when you're nottravelling?
How do you divide your time?
Because I guess at the end ofthe book I can't remember where
you were, right at the very end,and then like, are you back in
Sydney?
Do you do your contractback-to-back?
Sonia Henry (04:26):
Well, I've actually continued to work remotely
since the book was finished.
I mean it was actually kind offunny, like my book was launched
I did all this national media,which I was quite surprised by
actually the amount of interestin the book, but you know, it
was really great.
But then I went straight tolike Broken Hill and then over
to Western Australia for threemonths and worked in like the
(04:47):
Kimberley and through the CoralCoast and yeah, so nothing
really changed in terms of whereI was working or what I was
doing, and then we had this tripplanned.
So, yeah, I still work.
I guess I have the kind of myfavourite spots that I go back
to now.
Where are they?
(05:08):
I really like the Kimberley partof Western Australia I mean I
think everyone does.
The scenery is reallyspectacular and it also parts of
North Western New South Walesyou know I'm familiar with and
whilst the landscape isn't quiteas startling as the Kimberley,
you know there's greatcommunities out there and it's
not so hard to get to.
I suppose Like a flight toDubbo and a two-hour drive is
(05:31):
not quite like crossing theentire country from Sydney and
there's lots of differentoptions.
I mean, I got a text from afriend the other day who wants
to now go and work.
You know relaying.
I hope I've had some part ininspiring that.
But yeah, I think you can workpretty much anywhere.
But now I've sort of lost thatneed for new adventures.
I suppose I've sort of got toreturn to the same place.
Sam Miklos (05:57):
And when you're in Sydney.
Sonia Henry (05:59):
Are you practising as well?
Well, I have a virtual job,which is very convenient.
It also ties in a bit to theremote stuff because it covers a
lot of the stuff we do iscovering nurse run small
hospitals in rural victoria whootherwise wouldn't be able to
see a doctor, um, so I guess Ihaven't really let go.
Yeah, I can do that fromanywhere.
(06:20):
So I do that part-time and thenI work when I plan to work in
between, probably three to sixmonths of the year in remote
hours.
Sam Miklos (06:28):
Fantastic.
So you started out as a physioand then went on to become a
doctor.
What was it that attracted youto healthcare in the first place
?
And then I guess why thetransition from physiotherapy to
medicine?
Sonia Henry (06:41):
So there's a few times I was like like, oh, my
mom wanted me to be a doctor I'mlike well, I'm amazing a lot of
people feel that way.
But no, I was also, to be honest, I was also very interested in
people like I liked the humanaspect of medicine.
I was never that sciencey atschool or anything like that
(07:02):
like I mean, I did well atscience and but I sort of my
passions were much more in thehumanities, like English history
.
You know I've always been likethat, but I like the human side
of it.
I like the diagnostic processas well.
It's quite satisfying, um, butultimately patients are all
people, just like doctors areall people.
So without recognizing patientsas human and understanding the
(07:26):
human story, I guess you can't.
It's hard to enjoy medicinewithout that and I think, if you
like that, you know lots ofdoctors have been created like
me and I think we all enjoy thatside of it.
And you know I met a lot ofgreat people in training and
that sort of thing.
So yeah, I guess that's how itall began.
Physio wise, I was veryinterested in sport when I was
(07:48):
growing up, like that was prettysporty and I wanted to be a
football, but a physio sorry,it's early here I wanted to be a
physio for like a sport teamand all that stuff, and I did
that for a while but it wasn'tas uh, glamorous as as what,
what I had envisaged.
And then actually, when Istarted medicine, I ended up
(08:08):
deferring for a year because Iwasn't really sure what I wanted
to do and I was going to go toEurope and I had a job lined up
with an opportunity to beEnglish ballet company.
I mean, this is many years agonow.
Yeah, yeah, it was cool.
Actually it was through a girlI knew, through football,
ironically, that I was doingwith the different Sydney and I
(08:30):
broke my arm like three daysbefore I left to try and ski the
test to get onto the ski patrol.
I didn't thread broke becauseI'm a keen skier and I obviously
couldn't work because I had abroken arm.
So the uni sort of rang me whenI was in Europe and we're like
well, what's your plan?
(08:51):
Are you going to come back?
Are you going to stay in Europe?
And I I was going to sort ofsay, look, I'm done, I think
I'll just keep it up.
But I then randomly went backto the ski resort in Switzerland
and met a Spanish doctor whohad gone there for a mountain
rescue course and she her nameis Sarah, I still remember and
she's told me all this coolstuff you could do with medicine
and all the places you couldsee, and she's like I think you
should go back and that's sortof what decided um how I would
(09:11):
return and then it all happenedlike that I love when you can
have such key people in yourlife that really do change the
direction of what yeah, I'venever forgotten her.
Isn't that funny.
You know that you met thisrandom Spanish woman, but she
was so nice and so, um, laterallack of ego, and and you had a
very interesting life and um,and then I thought I could have
(09:34):
a life like that and I sort ofhave.
Yeah, I was just gonna say,yeah, she's been my beacon all
this time, but yeah, that's sortof how it happened.
Kate Coomber (09:44):
I love the um, the human element of what you're
talking about.
I think we've had some guestson on the series who really talk
about the human interactionwith their patients are really
the the most memorable momentsfor them throughout their career
, not necessarily always theclinical decision they made or
something like that.
It's really having those, thosehuman interactions that really,
I guess, drives the purpose andpassion oh, definitely, yeah,
(10:09):
definitely.
Sonia Henry (10:09):
I mean I don't think there's many jobs where
you do have as much humaninteraction, particularly being
gp, because I mean I'm seeingthe patient awake most of the
time you, um, you are able tointeract with them on a more
normal level, as in they're notlying on quadras in a bed and
you're having to interact withthem on a more normal level, as
in they're not lying unconsciousin a bed and you're having to
do something really dramatic orwhatever.
(10:30):
You sort of are able to talkwith them about their life, and
I think that that real window ismost unique to general practice
.
Sam Miklos (10:39):
Absolutely.
Kate Coomber (10:43):
And I guess, how did being an author come about?
Sonia Henry (10:47):
I always wanted to write books.
Yeah, yeah, that's what Iwanted to do my whole life,
really.
I mean, that's what I imaginedfor myself.
You know, I wanted to be awriter, but like my parents said
, you know, writers starve,doctors don't starve but um
sometimes writers don't starveat all, but not quite there yet
in terms of being able to justwrite full-time.
(11:07):
The dream, uh, no, um, and Ialways liked words and I really
liked books, and I saw a bookthat I suppose a bit of another
world to escape into.
Um, and it was another thing, Iguess another window into a
different place.
Um, and then I, it's very hardto become a published author, so
that took many years to finallyget a publishing contract, but
(11:30):
uh, then it did, and you knowI've had two books published,
none of which have been easy.
I mean, it's a tough roadwriting book and working
full-time but um, you know you'dhave to be crazy to do it, as
someone said.
Sam Miklos (11:41):
But then people are crazy, so they do it.
A third in the mix, so weexpect yeah, well, I'm trying.
Sonia Henry (11:49):
You've got to go into like medical crime fiction,
but I've only written 10 000words because I've been kind of
just too busy enjoying europe,so but that's definitely my,
I've got to get back to it so,um, for those who have not read
your book that are hearing thistoday, can you tell us how you
went from working as a GP inSydney to then exploring remote
(12:10):
medicine?
Sam Miklos (12:12):
How did that come about?
Sonia Henry (12:12):
Yeah, so I was meant to be.
I'd finished my exams andeverything, like you know.
I finally got my fellowship andeverything was, you know,
pretty good, and then I haddecided to go to Dublin.
I had a job lined up in Irelandand then the international
(12:37):
borders shut because of COVID,literally like three days after,
I had sort of sort of a littlebit stuck out.
I mean it had been a work inprogress, yeah.
And then, you know, I was sortof sort of a little bit stuck
out.
I mean it had been a work inprogress, yeah, yeah, um.
And then I, you know, I sort ofalso, at this point in my life,
I just wanted to really get away, um, for lots of different
reasons, and then I was reallystuck and it was a terrible
(13:00):
feeling to be so stuck becauseyou sort of I mean everyone felt
like that during COVID.
But it's such a strangesituation, I think, for all of
us, but particularly I felt verysorry for people who, you know,
for whatever reason, want toget away and want to do
something different.
You know, there's always thismoment you're like we're like
this has happened, all that'shappened, and I want to go
overseas, or I want to go hereand you suddenly just can't, and
(13:20):
but anyway.
So luckily, being a GP, I didhave the capacity to work.
So I looked at pretty much likejobs, remote Australia.
I rang a few agencies and thena job.
I saw a job that said he was asolo doctor in the Pilbara
region of Western Australia.
Um yeah, I was like, oh yeah,that looks pretty far away and
(13:41):
then I googled it and it lookedlike really far away.
And then it kind of feels like afew days later I was on a plane
landing in Perth, which wasbizarre in itself, Obviously
flying in the time of COVID isreally.
Sam Miklos (13:53):
And then the next thing it's like Perth, like it's
.
Oh yeah, and flying in the.
Kate Coomber (13:58):
It was like lots of different countries, right it
was.
Yeah, it was really weird Stateto state it was like we were
being run.
Yeah.
Sonia Henry (14:06):
Yeah, it was very.
It was all you know talking.
You know you really hear aboutthe borders in terms of
Australia right, we don't reallyhave more land, we're a giant
island.
Right, we don't have bordersper se, but it all felt very
kind of World War II.
I remember this talk aboutborders and land and the
separation between this stateand that state.
(14:26):
It was really strange.
So that was weird in itself.
And then getting obviously intothe middle of the Western
Australian games, it was evenweirder.
But you know, it was amazingreally.
Sam Miklos (14:38):
Did you feel, you know, coming from practising in
Sydney to then the Pilbara, youknow, in those first few weeks
of work there did you feelclinically equipped?
You know, it's sometimes thethings that you're faced with
and it's such a different role,in some ways, to be the solo
doctor.
Sonia Henry (14:55):
Well, I mean, that's a good question, like I
suppose I didn't feel, I feltlike my skill set was was solid,
but I felt that it was theaccess to imaging and the access
to specialist care.
And then also the realizationof this sort of mythical, uh
(15:17):
idea of there'll be air support.
You know, they kept sayingthere'll be air support.
So you kind of imagine orconceptualize that there's this
sort of fleet of planes arrivingif there's a major problem and
the patient can be sort ofwhisked off.
But the reality is it's notreally like that.
I mean, you know, the, the airsupport, in whichever place
you're in whether that's likecare flight or rfgs or you know
(15:39):
there's a few options is thatthey're quite understaffed and
they don't have enough planesand then they're very busy.
So you know, the air supportisn't probably going to get
there as quickly as what youhoped, it's not going to run at
all.
So that was a real, that was ashock.
So there was sort of like thislow level oh, it's very hard to
(15:59):
see a specialist or a patienthaving to wait, and unless they
can get to Perth.
But then you had your moreacute scenarios where you sort
of realized that you could doyour best, but I mean, without
the right equipment and theright sort of things, that if
they were to go wrong, thatwould be very difficult.
Um, and it was, you know, likea few sort of hairy things
(16:21):
happened and I sort of got outof there before anything really
catastrophic happened, but sixweeks after I left, something
did, you know?
And yeah, like there's nosugarcoating, that aspect of it.
Sam Miklos (16:32):
How did you find, you know, going from Sydney, the
razzle and dazzle of Sydney, tosome of those remote locations
that you worked?
Did you find that a shock inyourself?
You know some of those towns,like the one, iga, or like the
accommodation, even amenities,yeah, I mean sometimes there's
not a big club, like that's whatit's really like.
(16:55):
I guess the things you maybelike they still had the rose,
but it was renamed, I think thepink line.
Sonia Henry (17:02):
You, lion, you know , yeah, the Pink Lion, I still
call it that actually sometimes.
Yeah, I think it was.
Look, I'm pretty flexible and Iunderstood that I wasn't going
to, you know, the Sheraton, likeit was.
Yes, not the Four Seasons, butI found the landscape very
beautiful, you know, and I'm nota particularly precious person.
(17:23):
So some places were better thanothers in terms of
accommodation and that kind ofthing.
And you know, you knew you weregoing into the outback, so you
didn't really expect there to belike a cold.
Yeah, I had that idea.
But then some places I went toafter that, well, the remoteness
I mean even the Pilbara isextraordinarily remote, like you
have no concept of the spaceand the distances until you're
(17:48):
there.
I think there's a line in mybook where I said you haven't
seen land until you've seen someof the stations in WA, and that
is, I think, still true.
Kate Coomber (17:57):
Like I've seen land in New South Wales.
Those drive out there with yourphone nearly going flat and you
know those things are preparingpeople flat and you know those
things into that concept.
Sonia Henry (18:10):
You know I was all a bit slapdash.
Yeah, I should have lookingback.
I should have.
That's because a few of ourreviews in my book I don't
normally read reviews, it'sactually reviews have been very
positive.
But you're kind of nasty, like Ican't believe she went out
there so unprepared.
But I'm like you got no idea.
Like being a doctor you'realways unprepared.
Like I mean, these people seemto think we have this kind of
(18:30):
like hr setup where there's likethese inductions.
I'm like let's just try and bea junior doctor, sweetheart.
Like I feel like running backto us like the whole thing's
just a bit all over the place.
But yeah, I mean, was Irealized how remote it was, but
yeah, the isolation of the, thered earth and the filbert just
(18:51):
stretching for miles, but it'salso spectacular.
So you kind of are in this sortof terrible fear like oh no,
I'm really going nowhere to alsothis real appreciation for this
incredible old place thatyou're in, um, but yeah,
obviously I mean when I workedthrough the territory and stuff
as well, that that was my most.
I think I've never seen suchconditions like that in a first
(19:15):
world country, you know, inaustralia.
That really shocked me.
Kate Coomber (19:18):
Yeah, I'd love it yeah, sure, I think that some of
our audience may not reallyeven understand.
I think there's the location ofbeing remote and the landscapes
around you, but then the peopleand the communities that are
there and the differences Iguess of then being sent to.
You know hundreds of kilometreswest of Alice Springs or you
(19:41):
know very, very remote whereyou're in these communities,
like the access to healthcare.
The access and the type of careand working in Indigenous health
specifically.
Can you maybe share some realdifferences that you've seen and
what is it like?
Sonia Henry (20:03):
I mean because I worked in the Pilbara, which was
a mining kind of.
I mean there were lots ofactually First Nations or
Indigenous patients there, butit wasn't because it was a
mining.
There was a bit more money, itwas a bit less well, it was
still very remote but it didn'tfeel as neglected, I guess.
And then I went to work acrossback over to the east and I
(20:24):
worked in northwest New SouthWales in a.
It was a town but it had beenwhat was called a community.
So it only been the last twodecades and you transition from
being an Aboriginal community toa functional town.
For people who don't know, whenthey use this term community,
it's almost like a euphemism tosome extent.
Some communities are very niceand the people have, you know,
(20:46):
quite good quality of life, butacross the board they're kind of
remnants of missions orreserves when the First Nations
people were taken away and putinto these setups and they've
sort of I guess it's persistedsince that time.
So the whole origins of thatwere pretty bad to begin with,
right yeah, um but yeah, butthen this town that I lived in,
(21:10):
it was the health outcomes thatreally shocked me.
Um, it was the, the diabetesand the.
I mean, my first patient therewas like a 26 year old who had a
blood sugar of 32.
Um, and you know there's a lotof ignorance still around
aboriginal health in australia,where people do say this really
annoys me.
I mean, not only is it drivenby racial intent, I think a lot
(21:31):
of the time it's also incrediblyignorant.
When people look at aboriginalpeople, you know it's the
alcohol or the diet, thesetropes who it's?
It's their fault or it's yourfault, you know?
Um, but I mean, the thing isthat, simply, physiologically,
at 26, even if your diets arecooling which I'm not saying
necessarily this patient wasyour body regulates and you, you
(21:54):
can process and you don't endup with raging hormone and
diabetes.
Yeah, um, and sure you did, as Isaw lots of young people
because of this.
You know, sort of previousposition to that which was what
happens when you're forciblyremoved from your land and then,
over generations, areessentially force-fed the wrong
foods and then you get to thiscorrect point where but it
(22:15):
wasn't just like, it wasn't justlike these textbook statistics,
like I still remember callingmy dad one night and like the,
even the blood results weredifferent.
You know this sort ofpro-inflammatory response in
grey's white.
They'll raise inflammatorymarkers that there was no real
explanation for.
Like I had a friend actuallywho had like really low ferritin
(22:38):
but incredibly high hemoglobin,which is sort of I can't
remember quite the details, butit was physiologically almost
like impossible to the pointwhere the specialist at rpa got
involved and it was like youkind of see this stuff in
sometimes in nepal, like in highaltitude climates, and I was
like, are you related to it innepalese?
just like I think so, dog, likeI mean it was.
People don't understand medicalissues that are facing ab
(23:05):
people in Australia.
And then couple that with beingin the middle of absolutely
nowhere with other stuff, likethere was no bus to get to the
nearest major place, which is450 kilometers away.
Um, there's no ambulanceservice out there in terms of
New South Wales ambulanceservice, that spot.
So you can't just call anambulance if someone is, you
have to argue with some airsupport somewhere and a computer
(23:28):
to come and get the patient.
Like the whole thing was yeah.
So I rang dad and I was like Ican't believe that there's
people here who are sufferinglike this.
You know it was.
I was in tears, it was reallyshocking, and I had to speak to
a dermatologist about othersyphilis, a lot of syphilis
because of skin changes,secondary dyslexia, which is
also pretty rare to see, and hesaid he's seen leprosy out there
(23:51):
.
Wow, and it's certainly in theterritory, which is unbelievable
.
So that was very difficult toget my head around.
Sam Miklos (23:59):
And from what you've seen, you know, what do you
think can be done to bridge thatgap?
Like it's such a big gap that Ithink, like you're unaware of?
Sonia Henry (24:09):
Yeah, I think it's probably acknowledgement of the
fact that there is this gap andthere's lots of things inside
the gap.
We found out that the gap isthis empty chasm, but actually
it's full of history and denialand lots of different things.
You know, we've got a lot ofmoney in Australia, particularly
like the mining companies andall our minerals, that sort of
(24:31):
thing.
Like actually we could havebetter health services if we
really made a brave decision.
Yeah, but we don't.
You know there's a lot of.
It's so complicated and it's sodifficult.
But if you speak to Aboriginalpeople, it's not really that
complicated.
They're sort of like you know,we just want more doctors out
here, we want better hospitals,we want cheaper food yeah, stuff
(24:53):
like that.
There's shops out there thatfood prices are really jacked up
so you can't really just go toColes and buy all your veggies
because you're dealing withcosts.
It's like this forgotten partof Australia.
You know, quite startling torealise that that existed within
my own country.
Sam Miklos (25:11):
You know, when you've gone into any of the new
communities.
How do you build trust?
You know, how do you when theysay, hey, I'm coming in, and if
they haven't had a doctor for awhile, or they've had, you know
turnover of doctors, yeah, how?
Sonia Henry (25:27):
do you get that trust?
I mean, I haven't reallystruggled so much with that just
because, like I think I'm apretty kind of average person,
in the sense that I don't reallythink I'm better than the
patients, or like I've alwayshad a good ability to kind of
merge with the place that I'm inand with the people.
And I think patients are smart,like they're instinctive, they
kind of pick up on whetheryou're going to be like you know
(25:48):
, I'm the doctor in the ivorytower and you're my patient,
because, realistically, you'rein a place that is so different
to where you've come from.
They're going to teach you moreabout it than what you're
probably going to teach them.
And also, I think I was sorelieved to have someone there
who actually listened to them.
Yeah, you know, and I wasinterested in them and I was
interested in their stories andtheir conditions and how to help
(26:09):
them.
So, yeah, sometimes you cancome into towns and people can
be a bit reserved, but thatdidn't take long for me for that
to change and I found it veryeasy to make friends.
And that's what I liked aboutthis kind of place is that
everyone was actually verywelcoming at the end.
Sam Miklos (26:27):
Yeah, I was going to ask you that Did you find you
made networks, you know, movingaround from a couple of weeks
here, a couple of weeks there?
Sonia Henry (26:32):
Yeah, yeah, definitely, I'm still friends
with them today.
So, yeah, like it wasn't.
I don't think that for me, interms of socialising, people say
, oh, you get lonely, so someplaces are a bit different to
others, but places like theKimberley through WA, and yeah,
I mean, I've got friends allover Australia now, so I think
(26:53):
that sometimes it's more funthan being in Sydney a lot of
the time.
Kate Coomber (26:57):
Yeah, we've got people who say that, that
sometimes when they're in thecities people are isolated.
Now and sometimes when they goout more rural, remote there's
such a connected community outthere sometimes and people are
making maybe more of an effortto get to know people and
they're feeling more connectedthan than when they're in their
city oh, absolutely like.
Sonia Henry (27:17):
I think that I mean particularly if you wanted a
bit of a change as the gp or,you know, dr goodman, from
emergency or gp, pretty much allones you can do it so easily.
But if you wanted a bit of achange as a GP or a doctor who
would move around maybeemergency or GP, pretty much all
the ones you can do it soeasily.
But if you were so like Ireally need a change.
I'm sort of at this point wheremy life's stagnating a bit, for
whatever reason.
I think working remotely issuch a great thing to do.
(27:39):
I mean not only for the factyou're actually helping people,
but it's good for your ownmedicine and your own personal
growth, I guess.
Kate Coomber (27:46):
It sounds like you're probably testing your
skill set when you're in some ofthese locations at times.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, do youthink?
Sometimes, when you're in theselocations, when you're not
supported with all of theresources, your skill set is
expanding constantly?
Sonia Henry (28:02):
Yeah, it is, and look, that part of it is not.
I've never been a hero or acowboy doctor who's like got off
on the remoteness and how hardit is, and I mean, all I saw was
how unfair it was that thesepatients couldn't access this
stuff that everyone could accessin cities, um, and that's quite
scary.
But look, the help is there ifyou ask for it it's.
Look, it's not.
I agree, it's not like you canjust have someone run down and
(28:26):
help you from there, butactually you'd be surprised.
It's a and you can pick andchoose where you go, like you
know places, like on an hour atthe hospital with lots of
doctors, I had lots ofcolleagues where I worked and it
was very collegial and you knowyou, actually there was
education and that sort of thing.
So you can, kind of you canwork your way up to some of the
(28:47):
more remote locations and also,simply because you're a geek,
there's lots of choice.
You don't have to go somewhereif you think it's going to be
too hard and too dangerous, andthat would be.
My advice, of course, is toalways sort of figure out, maybe
ask some more pointed questions, which perhaps I should have
done.
Kate Coomber (29:03):
I think you're clearly very adaptable and I
think not everybody is adaptableand flexible.
Sonia Henry (29:08):
No, no yeah.
Kate Coomber (29:09):
For anyone listening who thinks that maybe
this could be a good option forthem.
I'd really be thinking aboutwhere they're comfortable, what
do they need surrounding them,and then for someone to maybe
map them to the right locationand health service time in their
career, and you know, they canevolve and go from there.
But there might be a bit of astepping stone to that.
Sonia Henry (29:30):
Yeah, and if you're going for an agency, you need
to have some really frankdiscussions, maybe speak to
previous doctors multipleprevious doctors who've been
there, and also because it'stotally different sitting in an
office sending people places toactually being on the ground
there working there.
Oh yeah, I don't want people tothink, oh, everything in remote
(29:52):
Australia is so great and sowonderful.
I mean, that's like afictionalised version of the
story.
It's not like that, but thereare, like I said, there's lots
of different options.
Sam Miklos (30:03):
Sonia, what about you know the wellbeing piece,
for you know you're sopassionate about wellbeing for
doctors.
Can you talk to us about whatwellbeing looks like?
What is it in wellbeing thatyou think we really need to be
more aware of?
Sonia Henry (30:19):
I think, look, doctor wellbeing has been a bit
of a problem for years.
I mean, I don't really thinkit's any better.
I wrote an article in 2017,anonymously, called there's
Something Rotten Inside theMedical Profession, which is a
response to a Spanish doctordying by suicide very young
doctors and there was lots ofresponses to that and everyone
went crazy and you know, thehealth minister sent me some
(30:44):
response to my open letter and Ididn't know it was me,
obviously.
I just read it on the train.
It was like, you know, we'reall really this is really bad,
but I'm on a medical councilcalled New South Wales Medical
Benevolent Association, which isa council that exists for
doctors in distress yeah,totally confidential and stuff,
and you know anyone can ring up,but the amount of calls we're
(31:05):
getting is only increasing.
Wow, there's been lots ofrecent suicides of doctors in
the last 12 months.
That we sort of.
Yeah, I think hospital trainingprograms are still very
difficult.
Being a GP is also tough.
You know like the media lovesto jump on the backs of Gps all
the time and which all of thesethings create, these vortexes of
(31:30):
um, stress and difficulty.
Um, and you know there needs tobe lots of changes when it
comes to looking after thewell-being of doctors, but they
haven't quite got there yet.
There are some good initiatives.
I think we need, you know, toopen up the training positions I
I think austral Australia alsoneeds to change its attitude
towards doctors, in a sense ofinstead of.
(31:51):
There's a sort of like we allneed doctors, but we're also
like beating doctors downbecause we're perceived to be
these really rich people inivory towers, which is so far
from the truth.
I mean your 60-year-old plasticsurgeon from 30 years ago maybe
, but not the case these days.
So much.
Kate Coomber (32:08):
It's that small percentage that they might be
focusing on there, rather thanthe person.
Sonia Henry (32:14):
Yeah, exactly.
Kate Coomber (32:15):
Because we want to be attracting people into this
profession right and making surethat it can be a well-supported
, long-lasting career.
Sonia Henry (32:24):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And you know what?
Like I always say to him I doquite a lot of talks for medical
students.
I say the thing about generalpractice.
I mean, look, people want to dowhatever they want to
specialise in, but the greatthing about being a GP is you
can create the life that youwant, which is actually much
more important than what peopleunderstand.
I mean, when you're 19 or 25and you're in medical school and
you're like, well, this isgoing to be this, that or the
(32:46):
rest of it, but life changes andevolves and flexibility, good
financial remuneration and alsothe ability to have work
whenever you need work is quiteamazing, I think.
And I've got some friends whohave quite high-powered jobs in
London and that sort of thing,but they're nowhere near the job
(33:09):
stability that you have as ageneral practitioner.
Sam Miklos (33:12):
When you talk about changes that need to be made.
What are some of the changesthat you think could be made to
just create better wellbeing forthe doctors?
Sonia Henry (33:22):
Oh, they need to be much more practical.
Like I said, they need to openup the training spots for the
colleges.
So then people can't be stuckbeing unaccredited registrars
for like 10 years and then stillgetting onto a training program
I mean stuff like that.
Yeah, and there needs to be.
I think we also need toacknowledge the gp shortage in
australia, like the governmentsneed to acknowledge it instead
of sort of because they don'twant to do gp training because
(33:44):
they're paid less during theregistrar years and in the
hospital.
I think they are changing someof that.
Someone said I think my dadsent me an article that
queensland and victoria arechanging their awards or
something.
They need to do that in newsouth wales as well.
Um, I think we need toacknowledge we've got a really
severe shortage in australia ofdoctors and no one can replace
doctors, that we've got all thissort of pharmacy prescribing
(34:06):
nurse practitioners which youknow, nurse practitioners are
great.
I'm not to be honest yeah, butthey're not.
It's not like being a doctor.
You don't have that kind oftraining and I always say to
people who should have wouldcounter that I'm like well,
you're perfectly welcome to goand spend 50 000 years at wall
and then 10 years training anddoing a very expensive
fellowship, like no one'sstopping you from doing that.
(34:28):
And until you do it, you don'tknow the breadth of knowledge
that you require.
Um, and I think we need as acountry and as a government is
to acknowledge the shortage andto actually either you know, fix
a pay structure, makeconditions more attractive if we
want doctors to work remotely,we have to have much better
infrastructure out there reallyeither fix a pay structure, make
conditions more attractive.
If we want doctors to workremotely, we have to have much
(34:50):
better infrastructure out therereally to attract people
long-term.
I've been interviewed byregional health ministers and
all of these things are.
What people want is practicalsolutions, and that's usually
driven by money and politics.
Whether that will change changeI don't know, but in the
meantime you can still enjoy avery satisfying life as a doctor
(35:11):
.
But you just have to be awareof these issues and work your
way around them and it soundslike find the right place for
you and varying yes, it's asubject to where you are, what
the health services, what theresources are, and find what
it's going to be very bespokefor everyone.
Yeah, and then you have thecapacity to find that bespoke
(35:31):
experience if you like.
It's funny, we went bespoke inrelation to remote outback
Australia.
Sam Miklos (35:37):
I'm not listening to you out there.
I know this is the word bespoke.
It's a funny word to use.
It's so funny.
Kate Coomber (35:44):
I'ming Australia.
Sonia Henry (35:48):
I think friends and stuff who work in Broome and
live there and they'll livethere for the rest of their
lives and they love it, and Ican say, wow, broome is a
fantastic place and there's lotsof people, oh, it's fantastic.
Yeah, so you know, you can makeit work very easily.
Kate Coomber (36:06):
You just have to have the guts to kind of step
outside your comfort zone, Iguess definitely.
Well, look for every um guestthat's coming on the show.
We're raising a bit ofawareness for a charity of your
choice and donating 500 also.
What's the charity for youtoday, sonia?
Sonia Henry (36:17):
well.
I mean, I've actually alreadyspoken about it.
So my charity of choice is thatis the council, that I'm a
board, not a board member, acouncil member.
Or we don't have a board, not aboard member, a council member.
Or if we don't have a board,it's the Medical Benevolence
Association of New South Wales,which is quite a I hate the word
secretive, but it's justbecause it's been around for 150
years, so their marketinghasn't been that great.
(36:40):
I mean, our new executiveofficer is excellent, but it's a
council of doctors, somespecialists, some gps also.
Gps are specialists I shouldnot say that um and they've been
around for years where theydevote.
It's a totally not-for-profitcharity, um, and we have
meetings every month where we umjust go through cases of
(37:01):
doctors or family members ofdoctors who have called us up,
who are in real distress, be bethat financial, emotional.
The council actually providesreally practical solutions.
We fundraise, we have socialworkers on board, we have a
financial advisor.
Certainly, if you hear some ofthe stories you hear, you
realise that doctors aren'tliving this dream life that
(37:21):
everyone thinks that they are,and it's a great cause.
It's totally managed just bythese.
I think there's about 10 of us12 of us on the council and no
one's paid or anything.
It's literally just a councilto help doctors who feel they
have nowhere else to turn.
Sam Miklos (37:38):
Yeah, what a fabulous show.
Thank you yeah it's great.
Sonia Henry (37:41):
It's a great organisation.
I'm very proud to be part of it.
I was just going to say I'mproud to be part of that.
Sam Miklos (37:46):
Yeah, it's really great to hear that and hopefully
from today we'll be able toshine a little bit of awareness
as well, like where you say it'ssecretive, like to get a little
bit of marketing in thatdirection, even with our team
making sure that they know to beletting our doctors know that.
Sonia Henry (37:59):
um yeah, um well, I think there's a great, there's
a queensland branch, there's atouring branch, but um we have
to communicate with the branches.
But louise, who's thatexecutive officer?
She?
Sam Miklos (38:11):
knows all that stuff .
Fantastic, sonia.
Thank you so much for your time.
It's been great to speak withyou.
We both really enjoyed the bookand, um, we so appreciate you
jumping on it.
It's like 6 am or something foryou there, like you like.
Oh, that's so fresh.
We really can't wait to see thethird book and oh thanks.
Sonia Henry (38:30):
I think it's been great.
Thanks very much for thetalking.
Kate Coomber (38:33):
Good luck with the podcast well, thank you, you
must pop in.
Sonia Henry (38:38):
Oh, I will I like, I like bruce benton great town
um.
It's really come on in the last10, 15 years.
Kate Coomber (38:45):
It really has.
Sonia Henry (38:47):
So many cool restaurants and yeah, no, no,
definitely no.
Thanks very much I reallyappreciate it.
Sam Miklos (38:53):
Fantastic, thank you .
Enjoy your trip.
Thanks for listening.
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