February 22, 2024 • 47 mins
Join us on a journey through language and culture with Lorie Roule, a multilingual expert from the intelligence community. From her fascination with French in fifth grade to her proficiency in Russian, Arabic, and Turkish, Lorie shares insights into the joy of language learning and the art of conversational code-switching. Explore the significance of language proficiency in high-stakes translation scenarios where precision and strategy intersect in communication.
Imagine a world where communication bridges diverse populations, regardless of age. Discover the cognitive flexibility that enables lifelong learning and the importance of language education in national security. Inspired by Lori's post-retirement advocacy, we highlight language learning as a vital societal asset.
Language embodies both strategy and emotion. Journey with us as we explore the emotional depth of language, connecting cultures and fostering personal relationships. Celebrate stories of language revitalization, including the Reencuentro Taino Conference (https://www.tainoconference.org/) and the efforts of organizations like Planet Word and 7,000 Languages to preserve human expression. Join us for a heartfelt reflection on the power of language to connect, empower, and advocate for sustainable language programs.
Contact Norah :
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Website: https://fluency.consulting
Your journey to discover the richness of language starts here. Join us on the website and embark on a learning adventure like never before!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Norah Jones (00:02):
Welcome to this podcast with my colleague and
friend, Lorie Roule.
Inspiration, imagination, allkinds of life and career
applications that illustrate inher life the power of language
and culture.
How about in your lfife?
Introduction (00:22):
Welcome to episode 121 of it's About Language,
hosted by Nora Lulich-Jones.
Today, we're joined by LorieRoule, whose passion for
language was ignited in herfifth grade French class and led
to a distinguished career inthe intelligence community.
With expertise in Russian,Arabic, French and more, Lorie
(00:42):
advocates for languageproficiency and cultural
understanding.
Join us as she shares insightson the transformative power of
multilingualism.
Norah Jones (00:53):
Lorie Roule, it's a great pleasure to welcome you
to it's About Language.
I'm delighted to have thisconversation with you today, my
friend.
Lorie Roule (01:00):
Thank you.
I'm so excited to be here, nora, thank you.
Thank you for this honor.
Norah Jones (01:05):
You know it's been so much fun over these well
decades in Virginia to have beenable to work in the language
field and I've been especiallyappreciative of and an
admiration of your work with theintelligence community and the
impact of language in theintelligence community.
But let folks know about thehistory of yourself, your own
(01:30):
language background and familycultural background that led you
to using languagesprofessionally in the
intelligence community.
Lorie Roule (01:41):
Oh, thanks, Nora, for that great question.
I mean, language has been sucha part of me I would say my
whole life, and my firstexposure really was kind of
twofold around the age of 10.
So, fifth grade, lucky in apublic school system to have
been offered the opportunity totake French, and loved it, just
(02:01):
gravitated towards it At thesame time.
Yeah, my heritage is bothPolish and Italian and lived
with my Polish-speakinggrandmother who had not used
Polish in years and years andyears and I used to torture that
poor lady by making word listsOkay, grandma, how do you say
this in Polish?
How do you say this in Polish?
I'm thinking I could teachmyself the language in that way.
I did end up learning a lot ofPolish words, but from there
(02:26):
just kept up with the Frenchthroughout school, added a
couple other languages along theway Latin, german while still
in high school.
Love Latin because it taught meso much about how languages can
work, and I love that aspect oflanguage as well.
Went on to college, took alittle Russian in college, took
a little Polish in college,again a little formally, and
(02:49):
then at that time the governmentwas looking for people that
knew languages and that's reallywhat got me my job Started off
in, yeah, national Security,working for the National
Security Agency.
This was mid-80s, so Russian wasthe flavor of the day and I had
some Russian and so put to workas a language analyst for a few
(03:10):
years and then switched over tothe CIA, the Central
Intelligence Agency, wherethroughout my career again I did
other kinds of things.
I was very much involved inintelligence collection and
management of that collection,but used my languages, picked up
some additional languagesArabic and Turkish, used those
(03:31):
languages, and then I also hadthe pleasure of working various
language programs, includingDirector, actually, of our
Intelligence Language School atCIA and a position called the
Senior Language Authority, whichreally is all things language
kind of managing all thingslanguage for an organization,
and many of the intelligenceorganizations had what are known
(03:53):
as these SLA Senior LanguageAuthorities Retired about five
years ago or so, but languagestill with me, it is so much
with me and reinvented myself.
Perhaps I always had a bit ofthis, but as a language advocate
, so really trying to say well,here's what my experience has
been, certainly only in thenational security realm, but
language is all around us andit's something that I can speak
(04:17):
to firsthand, so why not be outthere advocating for the
importance of language, for theimportance of the cultural
understanding that it brings,for the importance of connection
, connecting peoples Powerful?
Norah Jones (04:31):
I hope everybody will run out and sign up for
language courses right, based onthat, my dear.
But let me unpack a little bit.
You just collected languagesthere as you rolled through some
of those years, so let's take alook first at the implications
of learning language, then we'lldeal with some of the other
(04:52):
steps in that process that youjust went through.
When you began to learn alanguage, you're a fairly
typical human, an intelligenthuman.
What do you have to say aboutlearning language and languages
such that you were able tocollect a group like that?
(05:13):
How do you encourage those thatare potentially frightened of
learning a language with yourown experience?
Lorie Roule (05:20):
Yeah, it's a great question.
I think starting off with thatfirst exposure as a kid really
helps in not being afraid.
In learning a language you justreally have to dive right in
and find every opportunity touse it and not be so worried
about making mistakes soundingsilly.
I think kids can embrace that alittle bit better.
(05:42):
The other thing, nora, is thatonce you learn one, I really
think it is a lot easier tolearn another.
To give two examples yeah,french is a bit closer to
English.
An English speaker typicallydoesn't have too much struggle
with the French, but somethinglike Arabic, that's a lot
(06:03):
different.
It's a different languagefamily.
But yet knowing how languageswork in general or what to
expect when you're learninganother language think helps
immensely as you begin tobroaden into these other
languages and you begin to findpatterns.
By the way, lots of cognates InArabic actually there are
cognates that are similar toEnglish or sometimes similar to
(06:24):
the French.
One of my favorite stories, if Icould just segue for a moment
in maybe my language learningand I consider myself always a
learner I have to say I've neverstopped learning even languages
that I already have, becausethere's always something new out
there.
But I loved situations I wasthrown into a few times where
you start in one language andbecause I had the other language
(06:46):
I could segue over.
So conversation in French withsomebody, say, from Lebanon,
where you can flow back andforth between French and Arabic,
just thrills me.
I love those kinds ofsituations.
There are plenty of people inthe world that can do that
fluently in so many differentlanguages.
It's a great feeling.
Norah Jones (07:06):
It is a great feeling.
And yet you have justdemonstrated the fact that you
took the what you call prettymuch the fearlessness of
children and you bring it oninto adulthood.
The story there, and youalluded to the fact of doing it
not necessarily perfectly.
There are some folks that mayfeel that they have, that are
(07:29):
listeners that may feel likethey've missed the boat.
It's too.
They're too old, they can'tstart now.
They're scared People will makefun of them.
All of those things arepossible, I suppose, but how is
it you have gone with thesemultiple languages into
something that's a high pressurearea security?
That should lead some pathwaysto some stories of encouragement
(07:52):
for adults.
Lorie Roule (07:53):
Oh, absolutely so, when you're.
You know, I would say thatlearning a language in the
intelligence community if it's abrand new language one, yeah,
you have to be fearless, youhave to dive right in, you have
to find opportunity to use itfrom day one.
But it is serious business.
This isn't, you know, thisperiod of time that you spend,
for example, in some languagesit can be as long as two years.
(08:15):
In other languages certainly alot less than that.
But this is a full time,serious job and, as you can
imagine, for national securitypurposes it literally could be a
matter of life and death.
You know, words have meaning,and understanding the nuance and
understanding the culture wherethese words are spoken you
don't want to put yourself in asituation where either you're
(08:37):
miscommunicating something oryour misunderstanding something,
somebody's telling yousomething really important in
that language.
You want to be absolutely surethat you understand exactly
what's happening there, becausethat ultimately gets fed up to
decision makers Eventually, inEnglish, of course, but you know
(08:57):
you want to make sure that thatinformation is accurate.
So, yeah, high stakes here whenwe're talking about that, but
you know, if I could just saybroadly, high stakes in other
areas to think about health.
Think about if you make amistake and you're using
language in a health situation,how difficult that could be,
where, if you make a mistake inthat, or think about a business
(09:18):
deal, you know million dollar,multi million dollar business
deal Mistakes can be made.
And again I stress the culturalaspect of that too.
Norah Jones (09:26):
Well and I just don't know me as I'm listening
to you that mistakes can be madein communication in families
that are all speaking the samelanguage and come from the same
background because they've allbeen living together their whole
lives.
That is such an interestinginsight into the pressure that
is on language and culturalunderstanding happens and many
(09:48):
different kinds of situations.
Speaking of storytelling, whenyou think about the experiences
that you've had using theselanguages under circumstances
where you wanted to be sure youunderstood, both linguistically
and culturally, what washappening, do you have a story
that's like?
This really got my attention orI've enjoyed sharing this story
(10:11):
?
Lorie Roule (10:12):
You know.
One thing that comes to minddoesn't quite answer your
question, but I think it isimportant to know is I think
self awareness in language isreally important and there are
lots of ways to communicateright if you only have basic
knowledge of the language.
You can use your body language,you can use, you know, facial
expressions and things to kindof help support that.
But when you have what what'sknown in government is sort of
(10:35):
that professional proficiencylevel, which is you know kind of
the conversation we're having,we're able to have this, say, in
another language or we can getinto you know kind of nuance and
understand opinion and thatsort of thing, when you have
those skills, you need to know,you need to be self aware about
where exactly your weaknessesare and therefore it's not quite
(10:56):
a story although I might haveone in a minute, but not quite a
story but it's really havingthose techniques to be able to
question again.
Okay, I heard you say this isthat right?
Or I didn't understand thisword.
What does that mean?
And not think that you goteverything or you fully
understood everything.
(11:16):
And again, we do this inEnglish together.
English speakers love the timepeople do it in other languages,
but when you're cross languageyou really have to check
yourself and kind of be carefulon that.
My one story that is aboutpressure in this regard is I was
in a situation where we gotsome very important information
(11:36):
that actually was going toimpact on a major incident.
Can't get into details here,but I would just say a major
incident that you know peoplereading the paper might well
hear about and nobody in myorbit in my office knew the
language but me and it was timesensitive and I had to try in
this case was translation.
(11:57):
I had to translate this thingand I had people breathing down
my neck and I think thetechnique I had to use there was
back up everybody.
Just give me some space tofocus here, because I need to
get this, I need to get it right.
There's nobody I can consultwith.
So you know I need to do my mybest To get this out there and
(12:17):
make sure it's accurate.
So it can be you know, can be abit of a pressure cooker
sometime sure can.
Norah Jones (12:23):
But look at, look at what.
There's so many Aspects there,Lorie, that are so powerful.
I'm going to talk now aboutback filling into education.
Okay, you have mentioned this.
Folks, give me a little bit oftime.
I have to be able toconcentrate.
And especially, you referred toself awareness, listening
(12:44):
carefully, questioning.
In the proficiency area we callalso the negotiation of meaning
and understanding.
Of course, when you'retranslating, you can't negotiate
.
You have to be able to kind ofnegotiate with the context, I
suppose.
But when you're, you take alook at the experiences you have
had and when you look at thekinds of experiences that
(13:07):
government, business and othersare looking for in language and
culturally Adapt individuals,what particular things can you
say?
When you're teaching languages,please be sure that students
also learn.
How would you fill thatsentence out?
Lorie Roule (13:29):
absolutely.
Nor, you know, I've been a bigbeliever in making the learner
probably have anything, but inthis case we're talking about
language, but making the learnerof language smart, about
learning language, how do youbest learn?
So, yeah, of course, yourinstructor is going to dictate
that, obviously, to a certainextent.
(13:52):
And you know, I've been in asituation where I had an
instructor who really wasn't aninstructor, it was just a person
that happened to speak Arabic.
And you know, I would meet withthis nice young, nice elderly
gentleman in this case, you know, on a bi-weekly basis or
whatever to practice my Arabic.
I was my own instructor.
I had to dictate to this personhere's what we're going to work
on because, you know, he justdidn't know how to teach, and
(14:14):
teaching is an art and aprofession as well and you have
to know how to do that.
So, I think, knowing that as alearner, you have to be pushed,
you have to be pushed intouncomfortable zones to really,
you know, use and flex thosenewly acquired language muscles,
language skills and I wouldalso say that I know today, you
(14:35):
know, kind of the norm aroundeducation now is more of this
performance, task-based, reallybeing able to do something with
the language and I think that'ssuper meaningful to today's
learners and instructors inmaking that connection for
students about here's what we'regoing to learn.
But now let's all practice it.
Let's do something, let's havea role, let's do a scenario,
(14:59):
let's perform something, let'smake a phone call and rent an
apartment or whatever type ofthing, because the learner then
makes that connection to thereal world and this is how I can
actually put this language touse.
And then the strategies comeback to play.
Right Back to that imperfection.
I don't have to know the wordfor lobster if I'm at the
restaurant ordering lobster, butif I know the words for kind of
(15:22):
big red fish make my claws, youknow, with my hands I can
communicate and that's thebeauty of it.
You can still make yourselfknown even if your language is
not perfect.
And I did want to say one otherthing about learning as an older
adult.
If you will, you know we havein mind you can't learn anymore.
(15:44):
You know you kind of cementedyour brain's hardwired.
We know that.
We know now that the brain issuper neuroplastic and can
accommodate new things.
But I did some interviews withsome people a while ago.
I think you know this, nora,because I actually had mentioned
this to you a while ago and oneof the gentlemen I interviewed
talked about how, you know, inhis adulthood he decided to
(16:05):
learn Spanish because the jobthat he was in he dealt with a
lot of Spanish speakingindividuals and he didn't learn
a lot, he just learned enoughfor niceties and you know some
basic conversation and it openedso many doors for him in terms
of being able to establishrapport, relationships, that
sort of thing.
So for your listeners out there, it is never too late to pick
(16:31):
up language and go, for it isreally what I would say.
Norah Jones (16:37):
That's a great exhortation there and it was
interesting how beautifully yousaid it's about the humanity
right there.
It doesn't have to beimmediately applied to some kind
of practical thing outside of.
It's practically fun to behuman and to connect to one
another.
When you used the phraseearlier in this conversation
(16:59):
that the government was lookingfor foreign languages looking
for languages in to make a bigdifference in the national
security area, in thisparticular case, what seems to
be the status right now in theUnited States or and or the
world the listeners are outsideof the United States as well
(17:21):
With regard to governments andbusinesses, potentially on their
own, and also that may servegovernmental military procedures
.
Looking for languages.
Are they looking for languages?
Lorie Roule (17:35):
I would say definitely yes.
If anybody googled variousorganizations, both in national
security, maybe in elsewhere,but you know we are talking
about national security soGoogle those websites of those
various organizations and youwill see their language
requirements.
Not only for jobs where youknow like I managed a school, so
we obviously have instructors,you have to have the language
(17:55):
obviously to have that job butfor so many other jobs where
language enables you to do abetter job at what you're doing,
whether that's analysis orcollection or technical or
whatever, the governmentdefinitely is looking for
languages.
That said, what I would sayabout the government and based
on my own experience and whatI've kind of observed, even post
government, is and I actuallywrote a paper on this for the
(18:19):
National Intelligence Universitya while ago I think we tend to
be pretty reactive in government, we're not proactive in
thinking about language Anybody.
And for readers out there againwho aren't necessarily in the
United States, but if you justlook at the history of the
United States or the history ofthe world, you can pretty much
predict those languages thatwere important at those times
(18:40):
German, japanese during WorldWar II, you know, russian during
the Cold War and maybe nowagain Ukrainian, recently Arabic
, pashto, you know all thedifferent languages at different
sort of major internationalevents and in most cases and
again this is out there in thepublic domain the government's
been kind of one step behind.
(19:00):
Oh, my goodness, we needJapanese speakers.
The military said way back whenwhat do we do?
You know, and we're always inthat situation of what do we do?
Now?
We need people who can speakthe languages of these countries
where you know it's aboutadversaries, but it's also about
allies.
It's about being able to worktogether and establish those
(19:20):
human relationships that makethe world a safer place at the
end of the day.
So I would say, yes, governmentstill needs language.
That hasn't changed.
The world's just that muchsmaller.
The challenges are that muchmore interconnected.
Think Russian, not just aboutRussia, but Russian and cyber.
Think you know Arabic andclimate change.
(19:43):
Whatever the topic is, languagereally comes into play and I
only see that need growing and Iwould say, you know, I don't
think the government's doing abad job, but I think if it could
position itself to be moreproactive in things.
The other thing and I thinkthis is true in government, but
probably broadly too we see itin our school systems as well.
(20:03):
We tend to be, as a country,short-sighted about language.
Oh my gosh, it's reallyimportant.
We have to invest in it.
We're gonna grow budgets, we'regonna invest in it.
Yes, yes, yes.
We understand that at this giventime, japanese is important,
and then the problem goes awayand the attention goes away, and
then we suffer because yearslater, well, we have a need
(20:23):
again.
So how do we not be, not onlybe proactive, but Sustained and
mindful?
And when I think of education,or I also very much think of the
cognitive benefits thatlearning a language brings To an
individual and their ability,then it builds confidence.
For example, if you're willingto put yourself out there and
(20:44):
make mistakes in anotherlanguage, you're a great speaker
, you can get up on a stagesomewhere you know, you have
great negotiating skills.
There are so many skills thatyou can that you can parlay from
learning language that we tendto forget that, and that's a
benefit to our kids and to ourfuture, and yet we cut language
programs.
What are we thinking?
Norah Jones (21:05):
that sustainability , sustainability you win.
You had retired from theintelligence community's work,
specific work.
You have immersed yourself inadvocacy.
What are some of the pathwaysto advocacy for this language
(21:26):
future that you are engaged inright now.
What can the listeners learn,not only about you, but
potentially about what they canbe involved in?
Lorie Roule (21:36):
Yeah, I really appreciate that question, norah.
I've been a big believer alwaysin an Individual has the power
to kind of lead from where theyare.
As an individual, you know youcan only get too far.
When you join groups of people,you maybe you can get a little
bit further, particularly ifthey're like-minded people with
like-minded goals.
So I literally kind of stumbledupon knowledge of the JNCL
(21:58):
Nicholas language advocacy dayon the hill that takes place
every year.
We have our next one coming uphere at the end of February.
I just kind of stumbled uponthat.
I didn't even know that existedwhen I was in government.
I probably should have but Ididn't, and I wonder how many my
government could have done that.
I wonder how many my governmentcolleagues didn't know that
existed.
But that was an opportunity togo on the hill and you know it's
(22:20):
it's a lot of educators, butit's people beyond education
like myself, and really speakwith our congressional
Representatives about theimportance of language.
And, by the way, I thinkcongress by and large gets this.
Yeah, and it's not.
It's a bipartisan issue too,which is the beauty of it too.
I mean language.
You know who can argue with?
Language for national securityin particular, but really
language for just about anysector.
(22:41):
People can't really argue withthat.
Yeah, there is a need for that,no question about that.
So so now I go to the languageadvocacy days every year,
representing both my state ofVirginia, but I do have a little
part-time job where I'm workingwith a company in New Hampshire
that does language learningtechnology, transparent language
, and so I've represented orI've gone and talked to
(23:01):
congressional representativesfrom New Hampshire too, which
has really been kind of a coolexperience.
And then I ran into a dearfriend of mine from government,
a different organization Hisname is Tom Haynes who, along
with some colleagues, wererunning a state level advocacy
group called Global Virginia.
(23:21):
And I love the name becauseit's about the desire there is
to make every virginian citizenMore than one language in some
way shape, no matter what theage, no matter what the language
is.
You know, some of these peopleare obviously Not native English
speakers but whatever theirlanguage happens to be, and
partner it with another languageFor the benefit of the state
(23:43):
and our citizenry, for all thereasons that I mentioned Making,
you know, being able to be aglobal citizen, kind of, in the
world today.
So I've been very involved inboth of those groups.
Um, with global Virginia, I mean, I would do want to put a plug
in.
We've got a summit coming up.
It's a virtual summit.
It's going to be held on march19th and it is open to anyone.
(24:04):
So, um, I know, nora, you'll bementioning the website there Um
, our global virginiaorg.
People can go there and peoplecan sign up, and that actually
has a very specific theme to it.
What's the business case forlanguage skills today?
How do we marry need out there,particularly for trade economy
(24:26):
business, with Skill sets thatdo exist, and how do we pull
those two together?
So we're not kind of thinkingin terms of stovepipes.
So I'm really excited to seewhat comes of this.
We're going to have a couplepanels one addressing those
business skills or language forbusiness, and the other one
addressing language equity andaccess, which I think is another
(24:47):
Super important area in thisfield.
Norah Jones (24:50):
I'm looking forward to that summit again march 19th
2024, and the website again,Lorie, why don't?
Lorie Roule (24:59):
you.
Yes, it is wwwglobalvirginia,all one word, dot org.
And the registration link isright there when you open it up.
Norah Jones (25:09):
There'll be information, also with this
podcast, on my website, fluencydot consulting.
So I invite you to take a lookthere and follow the rabbit
trails there.
And so, taking a look at, whatis it when you then speak with,
engage with, work withbusinesses or those that Are
(25:34):
thinking about this concept Uh,is there a pushback that says,
well, english is a globallanguage, so this isn't really
necessary?
Uh, here in the united states,I know that that is a phrase
that is being used to.
Potentially it's used aboutone's own language other on
other places.
(25:55):
So help, help our listeners tounderstand what it is that you
do and, from an advocacy anddiscussion point of view, that
says the experience of someonespeaking the language that you
happen to be speaking is notnecessarily the fullest
expression of what we need, ifthat, in fact, is what is
happening.
Lorie Roule (26:14):
Yes, I mean definitely.
There's always that kind ofpushback, even among Students
who wanna you know, who are inschool still in saying, or in
college.
You know, why should I studylanguage?
You know, particularly with aand other things out there, like
, do I really need to know other, another language Businesses I
think probably some businesseswould have that same kind of
(26:34):
response to this.
I would say our advocacy upuntil now primarily has been
with helping Educators andstudents understand yeah, just
what can you do with a Frenchmajor in my case, and what does
that look like.
And you know, not just fornational security so, but, like
I said, for health, forhospitality, for real estate,
for music, for all kinds ofthings.
(26:56):
So that's been enjoyable towork that front of it and, I
think, helpful to our educators,in particular with their
students.
We've said wait over if youwill into the business arena,
because we do think that youknow there been studies out
there.
I think actual did a study aboutlanguage and business.
You know, if you look at ourown Virginia statistics, the
Virginia Chamber of Commerceactually touted the importance
(27:18):
of language in its blueprint for2030.
So there is a recognition.
I would say, by and large, thatlanguage is important and kind
of for a couple reasons here.
One is, yes, trade its moneyright boils down to money, you
know, being able to reallyconverse with people in other
countries and make deals, etc.
Etc.
That's an important aspect ofit.
(27:39):
But our country also has kind ofa growing Diverse population
where, for you know, many peoplelanguage English is not their
first language and they end upbeing hired by these various
companies in these variousbusinesses because they have
great language skills.
But I've seen now where peoplewho are working other their
(28:03):
fellow employees or maybemanagers or whatever there's
this desire to say I also wantto better connect, say, with my
employees.
You know, I run a group ofpeople that for whom maybe
English isn't their firstlanguage and, yeah, they speak
English.
That's fine, but I really wantto be able to get a deeper
connection with them as a goodmanager type of thing.
So we're seeing some of thatoccur as well, which is really
(28:26):
exciting.
So I think businesses absolutelyshould pay attention to our
educational system, should bedismayed when they hear a major
university is now cut itslanguage majors, for example.
And this is a concern of all ofus, not just those in education
, this is a concern of all of usand for business.
(28:49):
You can't on the one handclamor and say, yeah, having
somebody with language skills.
I mean I've had businesses sayto me All things being equal, on
a resume, if the person alsohas another language, they have
a foot up and getting this job,type of thing.
So you can't say that on theone hand and yet ignore what
might be happening with budgetsand things like that and
(29:09):
struggling and teacher shortages.
I mean that's another hugeproblem here in so many fields,
but in the language field aswell.
Norah Jones (29:18):
And one of the words that you used as you were
speaking.
There is about deeper connectionwith, say, the workers that are
in a business, and presumablywe could talk about those that
are in an office capacity Inalmost any industry, including
(29:40):
governmental and military and soforth.
When we take a look at some ofthe aspects of the ways that
businesses can struggle toattract and retain good
employees, there's a seems to bea connection between a few, if
you pardon the expression therebetween the ability to use
(30:04):
language but languages otherthan, say, english, let's go for
that for just a second but alsoan understanding, through the
learning of language, how peoplecommunicate and how do that do?
Go back to our beginning of ourconversation, how to do that
listening, that self awareness,that effective questioning of
(30:29):
one's hearing, one'sunderstanding.
There's a really big picturehere of what language can
sensitize people within businessindustry to be able to attract,
retain and increase theeffectiveness of their employees
, just straight up, because ofhow language works with the
human brain.
(30:50):
Am I like speaking somethingthat makes sense based on your
experience?
Lorie Roule (30:55):
Yeah, absolutely it makes sense, nora.
I mean, at the end of the day,I think that language is about
connection and humanrelationships.
And think of any businessenvironment.
You know, you really have toknow how people work.
You know whether you're amanager and you're managing
people, or you're a colleagueand these are your peers, or you
(31:17):
know your managers, becausethere's such a thing as managing
up to, but really in a goodsense, and I mean that too.
But this whole idea of humanrelationships, language really
does come into play and howpeople think absolutely really
language playing such animportant role and just
understanding one another.
And when you mentioned the wordretention, I think what
(31:39):
resonates, obviously salariesare important and those kinds of
things, monetary rewards.
People have to make a living,but I think a primary factor
that makes people happy at work,find joy at work, is when they
have meaningful work and reallyhave a sense that they belong,
and language is a huge part ofthat.
(32:00):
So embracing somebody for thebackground that they bring, the
experiences that they bring andthe languages plural perhaps
that they bring to the job, Ithink really, whether they're
actively using that language onthe job or not, you know, I had
a story from a friend who doestours, gives tours, and he's a
(32:21):
retiree, and he said that youknow, it's here in the DC area.
So, as you can imagine, we havevisitors from a lot of
different countries and he knowslike six or seven languages.
He's just amazing and he knowsthem all pretty well.
And so he has a tour group fromGermany and suddenly he's
switching into German.
You know, this is just a funactivity that he's doing.
You know, it doesn't have to belike part of your day to day
(32:43):
job.
In fact, I have a hypothesisthat if you have another
language, you will use it.
You will find a way to use itno matter what, and I've seen so
many examples of that.
Norah Jones (32:57):
Give us one, give us another one.
Lorie Roule (32:58):
So this was a beautiful story of somebody that
I interviewed who is aphysician's assistant and she
doesn't need language for herjob.
You know she's in a hospital,works in a hospital, but she
happened to have studied Spanishand actually did an immersion,
I think, in Peru or somewhereshe had mentioned to me, for
(33:20):
like three months or whatever.
So her Spanish was pretty good.
And during COVID and she livesin a big city during COVID there
were a number of patients whocontracted COVID this was in the
early stages of the pandemicwho, you know, might have been
homeless, might not have hadmuch of an income, and here they
(33:41):
are in this situation whereit's a life-threatening disease
and they don't speak Englishvery well, but they speak
Spanish and she was able to useher Spanish again not part of
her day-to-day job, but shehappened to have Spanish to
comfort these people, to letthem know that they were going
to be housed in a hotel for theduration of their illness, to
let them know what was going tohappen to them, what procedures
(34:02):
were going to take place.
I mean, that is a really thatwas a story that brought tears
to my eyes of somebody whohappened to have Spanish, right
place, right time using it.
Norah Jones (34:14):
That connection that allows us to be humane
under difficult circumstances,even if we are not officially
using the language for our work,as you say.
Thank you for sharing that verytouching story.
Laura, you've been and areengaged in this advocacy.
How, then, do you feel thatothers could be engaged in
(34:37):
advocacy?
What kind of insights would youlike to provide, an
encouragement would you like toprovide to folks who are looking
at advocacy at various levelsand various approaches?
Please?
Lorie Roule (34:48):
Well, there are the formal kinds of things that
exist.
I mentioned the languageadvocacy days.
That's at the national level.
That's open to anybody and,nora, you'll probably put
something on your website sopeople can figure out how they
can join that certainly.
So that's out there.
Global Virginia, which isn'tlimited to Virginians.
So if you want to be a part ofthat, we absolutely come to our
summit.
That's what I could say on that.
(35:08):
But even at an individual level, I'll give you a concrete
example of something thatoccurred maybe a month or two
ago.
I get newsletters from mycongressional representative.
You know constituents.
A newsletter comes out.
It's talking about STEM, whichis great.
That's important.
Those are important skill setsand opportunities for high
school students around STEMWonderful.
(35:30):
So I received this newsletterand I think, hmm, why doesn't
this congressperson mentionedsomething about world languages
and how important they are?
So I wrote to them, got invitedto the office.
They want to do a roundtablearound language.
So this is just Lorie Ruhl,private citizen, saying I want
to try to do something herewithin my power to do gets back
(35:51):
to that kind of leading fromwhere you are.
If you're in a business inparticular, whether you're a
parent or not, why not check outyour like local school district
and see if you can come talkabout what your business does?
You know, I don't know if theystill have.
You know, kind of bring yourparent to class days or career
days or whatever that might looklike, but check it out, go
(36:12):
there.
The other thing is being alsosmart about what language
learning looks like today.
There are some wonderful wayslanguages being taught that are
different from what Iexperienced years ago, even
though I adored and lovelanguages.
But you know, people tendpeople tend to have that.
Oh yeah, I failed high schoolSpanish because you know we were
doing conjugations all day long.
It doesn't look like that inthe language classroom anymore.
(36:34):
So, being smart about what thatlooks like, I'll put in another
plug for business.
If you're in a business, canyou offer an opportunity for an
internship for a high schoolstudent that somehow touches on
language in some way, shape orform?
That would be a cool thing todo.
So I think you know, if I werestarting off on this nor and
(36:55):
saying how can I get involved, Iwould look at my immediate
surroundings, the landscapearound me.
Where can I make a difference?
Is it a school district?
Is it businesses that I know Isit interacting with
congressional representatives orlocal right State level
representatives or your localchamber of commerce, but making
(37:16):
your voice heard and your voiceknown is something that's within
anyone's power to do.
Norah Jones (37:22):
That it is Well said, anyone's power, the joy
that is and the energy that areclearly in your voice as we are
speaking, is so much fun.
And that brings out anotherconcept here the wonderful
pathways that we can follow asindividuals to things that we
find interesting.
And I love, when I talk toguests, to be able to find out
(37:45):
what interesting pathwayslanguage has taken them that
people might not predict.
For example, we have on mywebsite the information about
you and fluency dot consulting,and one of the resources that is
listed there is aboutreencuentro, taino conference.
(38:06):
Tell us about that.
That.
That Spanish word means whatthis particular Taino conference
is all about.
Lorie Roule (38:14):
Yes, so I was honored to be asked to be part
of the advisory board for arelatively recent effort.
That was from a dear, dearfriend of mine.
Her name is Priscilla Cologne.
She, with others working withothers though embarked on a
journey to revive the Tainolanguage, which was a language
(38:38):
that so the and I don't speakSpanish.
Actually, I'm trying to teachmyself Spanish now, I just want
you to know that's my nextlanguage adventure, but I'm not
that fluent.
But it really means revivingreviving of the Taino language
that was thought to have diedlike 500 years ago, and it
hasn't.
And people in she's from PuertoRico and people in that part of
(39:00):
the world and in other countries, in the Caribbean in particular
, that is the language thattheir Families spoke, that she's
embarked on a revival of, andshe held a conference, or she
and others organized a hugeconference last summer in Puerto
Rico with attendees from allwalks of life art,
(39:23):
archaeologists, artists,linguists, filmmakers.
There was so much energy aroundthis effort to revive the
language, and the intent is tonow move forward with a whole I
mean for me, who's a bit of abystander giving some advice
here and there to help her andsome ideas to think about
(39:46):
Watching how this whole thingExplorished in a matter of just
a couple years.
She's also written some kidsbooks that are in both English
and Taino, english and Spanishor Spanish and Taino.
It's just amazing and that kindof set me on this whole aspect
of my language journey, which isthere are a lot of languages
(40:07):
out there that both needRevitalized, that need invested
in their endangered languages,and it gets back to that point
of belonging.
Nora gets back to that point ofreally recognizing people,
honoring where they came fromand Ensuring that we as humanity
don't lose the preciousness ofthese languages and how people
(40:31):
think and etc.
Etc.
So you know, put out a plug foranother organization out there.
I know 7,000 languages, 7,000languages dot org and they're
all about helping variouslanguages language communities
revive their languages.
In the United States thatincludes many, many Native
American.
(40:51):
You know languages, as you canimagine as well.
Norah Jones (40:55):
Absolutely, and it's been interesting because I
had just recently had aninterview with a guest, tim
Brooks, with endangeredAlphabet's org, and that the
right revitalization oflanguages spoken and written is
just fascinating, I think,absolutely fascinating.
So there's a pathway listenersfor the, the, the joy of that
(41:21):
belonging and that identitythat's found through
revitalization Potentially ofboth individuals lives has also
these groups.
You also have one of theresources of reference to the
planet, word.
Can you tell us about how yougot engaged with that and what,
how that interacts with whatyou're Enjoying doing with
(41:43):
languages in your background?
Lorie Roule (41:46):
Yes, so Probably my favorite museum in Washington
DC is planet word has beenaround all that long.
It actually opened during thepandemic but Anne Friedman Was
the inspiration behind it andcreated it and is the head of it
, and I was very honored.
I think it was because ourhusbands knew one another and
(42:07):
somehow the connection betweenshe and me was made and you know
, she offered for me to be amember of her Auguste very
Auguste advisory board.
But I mean, this is a museumthat is certainly, you know,
languages around the world comeinto play and they've got this
great display where you can hearvarying languages around the
(42:27):
world.
But it's also about the love oflanguage itself, the words, the
importance of words, how theyplay in poetry, how they play in
advertising, how words are usedto convince, manipulate,
negotiate it really, for anybodyout there, like I do and in
(42:48):
fact you know you're in mylibrary here I've got like
shelves of books about languagesand how languages work.
For anybody who's interested inthat planet word is a must Must
see if you will, and they'vegot a lot of.
You know, if your listeners arein many different countries and
can't easily travel to theStates, they've got a lot of
virtual programs as well thatyou might want to sign up and
listen to on a whole host oftopics about the love of
(43:11):
language.
Norah Jones (43:11):
Great.
I'm looking forward to folkshaving a chance to look at that
and thank you for what you'redoing in in Enjoying it and also
being part of the board so thatit can continue to flourish.
Thanks for that dedication toLorie.
We're coming to where that isto finish the conversation,
(43:32):
unfortunately, because I justenjoy everything we always chat
about.
One last question what is itthat you would like to Bring up
that I had not yet asked about,but that's on your heart, or
that you feel is so important toreemphasize?
However, you would like tointerpret that last word that
(43:52):
you make sure that our listenershear from you as we end this
podcast.
Lorie Roule (43:59):
Thank you, nora, for that opportunity, and I
loved conversing with you.
I do feel like we could go onall day, but unfortunately all
good things must come to an end,so it's okay with you.
I'd actually like to leave youwith a quote from my mom.
When I interviewed a bunch ofpeople from different walks of
life a couple months ago aboutLanguage and how they use their
(44:23):
language, and stories like thephysician's assistant story that
I came up with, I also decidedto interview my parents, and my
dad had actually learned ASL.
Just a quick sidebar, he hadactually learned American Sign
Language because he had a deafemployee work for him and that
was fantastic and you know hetook the time as a foreman to
(44:45):
learn the language so that hecould converse with her, which
was so he talked about that.
But here's what my mom saidlanguage is very important to
bring people together.
Communication may bring peace.
If we can communicate togetherin a caring and loving way,
there will be peace in the world.
Thanks, mom.
Norah Jones (45:06):
Please thank her from me, too, and from the
listeners.
What, uh, what a touching,powerful.
And thank you for bringingtears to my eye and voice, and
Please do thank your mom forbeing a person who understands
exactly what language can do.
What a fine ending.
(45:28):
Thank you, my friend, for beinghere today, for sharing all of
your passion and skills, or atleast as many as we could fit in
in the time of the podcast foreveryone.
Continue, please, your powerfulwork and leadership.
Thank you for all you're doing.
Lorie Roule (45:44):
Thank you, nora, it was my great pleasure to be
here.
Norah Jones (45:48):
Thank you for listening to this podcast with
my guest, Lorie Roule.
Check out Laurie and theresources and references at my
website, fluency dot Consulting,and take a look around in your
life and the lives of those youknow around you.
Where do you see the power oflanguage and culture at work?
(46:11):
You, you.
Welcome to this podcast with my colleague and
friend, Lorie Roule.
Inspiration, imagination, allkinds of life and career
applications that illustrate inher life the power of language
and culture.
How about in your lfife?
Introduction (00:22):
Welcome to episode 121 of it's About Language,
hosted by Nora Lulich-Jones.
Today, we're joined by LorieRoule, whose passion for
language was ignited in herfifth grade French class and led
to a distinguished career inthe intelligence community.
With expertise in Russian,Arabic, French and more, Lorie
(00:42):
advocates for languageproficiency and cultural
understanding.
Join us as she shares insightson the transformative power of
multilingualism.
Norah Jones (00:53):
Lorie Roule, it's a great pleasure to welcome you
to it's About Language.
I'm delighted to have thisconversation with you today, my
friend.
Lorie Roule (01:00):
Thank you.
I'm so excited to be here, nora, thank you.
Thank you for this honor.
Norah Jones (01:05):
You know it's been so much fun over these well
decades in Virginia to have beenable to work in the language
field and I've been especiallyappreciative of and an
admiration of your work with theintelligence community and the
impact of language in theintelligence community.
But let folks know about thehistory of yourself, your own
(01:30):
language background and familycultural background that led you
to using languagesprofessionally in the
intelligence community.
Lorie Roule (01:41):
Oh, thanks, Nora, for that great question.
I mean, language has been sucha part of me I would say my
whole life, and my firstexposure really was kind of
twofold around the age of 10.
So, fifth grade, lucky in apublic school system to have
been offered the opportunity totake French, and loved it, just
(02:01):
gravitated towards it At thesame time.
Yeah, my heritage is bothPolish and Italian and lived
with my Polish-speakinggrandmother who had not used
Polish in years and years andyears and I used to torture that
poor lady by making word listsOkay, grandma, how do you say
this in Polish?
How do you say this in Polish?
I'm thinking I could teachmyself the language in that way.
I did end up learning a lot ofPolish words, but from there
(02:26):
just kept up with the Frenchthroughout school, added a
couple other languages along theway Latin, german while still
in high school.
Love Latin because it taught meso much about how languages can
work, and I love that aspect oflanguage as well.
Went on to college, took alittle Russian in college, took
a little Polish in college,again a little formally, and
(02:49):
then at that time the governmentwas looking for people that
knew languages and that's reallywhat got me my job Started off
in, yeah, national Security,working for the National
Security Agency.
This was mid-80s, so Russian wasthe flavor of the day and I had
some Russian and so put to workas a language analyst for a few
(03:10):
years and then switched over tothe CIA, the Central
Intelligence Agency, wherethroughout my career again I did
other kinds of things.
I was very much involved inintelligence collection and
management of that collection,but used my languages, picked up
some additional languagesArabic and Turkish, used those
(03:31):
languages, and then I also hadthe pleasure of working various
language programs, includingDirector, actually, of our
Intelligence Language School atCIA and a position called the
Senior Language Authority, whichreally is all things language
kind of managing all thingslanguage for an organization,
and many of the intelligenceorganizations had what are known
(03:53):
as these SLA Senior LanguageAuthorities Retired about five
years ago or so, but languagestill with me, it is so much
with me and reinvented myself.
Perhaps I always had a bit ofthis, but as a language advocate
, so really trying to say well,here's what my experience has
been, certainly only in thenational security realm, but
language is all around us andit's something that I can speak
(04:17):
to firsthand, so why not be outthere advocating for the
importance of language, for theimportance of the cultural
understanding that it brings,for the importance of connection
, connecting peoples Powerful?
Norah Jones (04:31):
I hope everybody will run out and sign up for
language courses right, based onthat, my dear.
But let me unpack a little bit.
You just collected languagesthere as you rolled through some
of those years, so let's take alook first at the implications
of learning language, then we'lldeal with some of the other
(04:52):
steps in that process that youjust went through.
When you began to learn alanguage, you're a fairly
typical human, an intelligenthuman.
What do you have to say aboutlearning language and languages
such that you were able tocollect a group like that?
(05:13):
How do you encourage those thatare potentially frightened of
learning a language with yourown experience?
Lorie Roule (05:20):
Yeah, it's a great question.
I think starting off with thatfirst exposure as a kid really
helps in not being afraid.
In learning a language you justreally have to dive right in
and find every opportunity touse it and not be so worried
about making mistakes soundingsilly.
I think kids can embrace that alittle bit better.
(05:42):
The other thing, nora, is thatonce you learn one, I really
think it is a lot easier tolearn another.
To give two examples yeah,french is a bit closer to
English.
An English speaker typicallydoesn't have too much struggle
with the French, but somethinglike Arabic, that's a lot
(06:03):
different.
It's a different languagefamily.
But yet knowing how languageswork in general or what to
expect when you're learninganother language think helps
immensely as you begin tobroaden into these other
languages and you begin to findpatterns.
By the way, lots of cognates InArabic actually there are
cognates that are similar toEnglish or sometimes similar to
(06:24):
the French.
One of my favorite stories, if Icould just segue for a moment
in maybe my language learningand I consider myself always a
learner I have to say I've neverstopped learning even languages
that I already have, becausethere's always something new out
there.
But I loved situations I wasthrown into a few times where
you start in one language andbecause I had the other language
(06:46):
I could segue over.
So conversation in French withsomebody, say, from Lebanon,
where you can flow back andforth between French and Arabic,
just thrills me.
I love those kinds ofsituations.
There are plenty of people inthe world that can do that
fluently in so many differentlanguages.
It's a great feeling.
Norah Jones (07:06):
It is a great feeling.
And yet you have justdemonstrated the fact that you
took the what you call prettymuch the fearlessness of
children and you bring it oninto adulthood.
The story there, and youalluded to the fact of doing it
not necessarily perfectly.
There are some folks that mayfeel that they have, that are
(07:29):
listeners that may feel likethey've missed the boat.
It's too.
They're too old, they can'tstart now.
They're scared People will makefun of them.
All of those things arepossible, I suppose, but how is
it you have gone with thesemultiple languages into
something that's a high pressurearea security?
That should lead some pathwaysto some stories of encouragement
(07:52):
for adults.
Lorie Roule (07:53):
Oh, absolutely so, when you're.
You know, I would say thatlearning a language in the
intelligence community if it's abrand new language one, yeah,
you have to be fearless, youhave to dive right in, you have
to find opportunity to use itfrom day one.
But it is serious business.
This isn't, you know, thisperiod of time that you spend,
for example, in some languagesit can be as long as two years.
(08:15):
In other languages certainly alot less than that.
But this is a full time,serious job and, as you can
imagine, for national securitypurposes it literally could be a
matter of life and death.
You know, words have meaning,and understanding the nuance and
understanding the culture wherethese words are spoken you
don't want to put yourself in asituation where either you're
(08:37):
miscommunicating something oryour misunderstanding something,
somebody's telling yousomething really important in
that language.
You want to be absolutely surethat you understand exactly
what's happening there, becausethat ultimately gets fed up to
decision makers Eventually, inEnglish, of course, but you know
(08:57):
you want to make sure that thatinformation is accurate.
So, yeah, high stakes here whenwe're talking about that, but
you know, if I could just saybroadly, high stakes in other
areas to think about health.
Think about if you make amistake and you're using
language in a health situation,how difficult that could be,
where, if you make a mistake inthat, or think about a business
(09:18):
deal, you know million dollar,multi million dollar business
deal Mistakes can be made.
And again I stress the culturalaspect of that too.
Norah Jones (09:26):
Well and I just don't know me as I'm listening
to you that mistakes can be madein communication in families
that are all speaking the samelanguage and come from the same
background because they've allbeen living together their whole
lives.
That is such an interestinginsight into the pressure that
is on language and culturalunderstanding happens and many
(09:48):
different kinds of situations.
Speaking of storytelling, whenyou think about the experiences
that you've had using theselanguages under circumstances
where you wanted to be sure youunderstood, both linguistically
and culturally, what washappening, do you have a story
that's like?
This really got my attention orI've enjoyed sharing this story
(10:11):
?
Lorie Roule (10:12):
You know.
One thing that comes to minddoesn't quite answer your
question, but I think it isimportant to know is I think
self awareness in language isreally important and there are
lots of ways to communicateright if you only have basic
knowledge of the language.
You can use your body language,you can use, you know, facial
expressions and things to kindof help support that.
But when you have what what'sknown in government is sort of
(10:35):
that professional proficiencylevel, which is you know kind of
the conversation we're having,we're able to have this, say, in
another language or we can getinto you know kind of nuance and
understand opinion and thatsort of thing, when you have
those skills, you need to know,you need to be self aware about
where exactly your weaknessesare and therefore it's not quite
(10:56):
a story although I might haveone in a minute, but not quite a
story but it's really havingthose techniques to be able to
question again.
Okay, I heard you say this isthat right?
Or I didn't understand thisword.
What does that mean?
And not think that you goteverything or you fully
understood everything.
(11:16):
And again, we do this inEnglish together.
English speakers love the timepeople do it in other languages,
but when you're cross languageyou really have to check
yourself and kind of be carefulon that.
My one story that is aboutpressure in this regard is I was
in a situation where we gotsome very important information
(11:36):
that actually was going toimpact on a major incident.
Can't get into details here,but I would just say a major
incident that you know peoplereading the paper might well
hear about and nobody in myorbit in my office knew the
language but me and it was timesensitive and I had to try in
this case was translation.
(11:57):
I had to translate this thingand I had people breathing down
my neck and I think thetechnique I had to use there was
back up everybody.
Just give me some space tofocus here, because I need to
get this, I need to get it right.
There's nobody I can consultwith.
So you know I need to do my mybest To get this out there and
(12:17):
make sure it's accurate.
So it can be you know, can be abit of a pressure cooker
sometime sure can.
Norah Jones (12:23):
But look at, look at what.
There's so many Aspects there,Lorie, that are so powerful.
I'm going to talk now aboutback filling into education.
Okay, you have mentioned this.
Folks, give me a little bit oftime.
I have to be able toconcentrate.
And especially, you referred toself awareness, listening
(12:44):
carefully, questioning.
In the proficiency area we callalso the negotiation of meaning
and understanding.
Of course, when you'retranslating, you can't negotiate
.
You have to be able to kind ofnegotiate with the context, I
suppose.
But when you're, you take alook at the experiences you have
had and when you look at thekinds of experiences that
(13:07):
government, business and othersare looking for in language and
culturally Adapt individuals,what particular things can you
say?
When you're teaching languages,please be sure that students
also learn.
How would you fill thatsentence out?
Lorie Roule (13:29):
absolutely.
Nor, you know, I've been a bigbeliever in making the learner
probably have anything, but inthis case we're talking about
language, but making the learnerof language smart, about
learning language, how do youbest learn?
So, yeah, of course, yourinstructor is going to dictate
that, obviously, to a certainextent.
(13:52):
And you know, I've been in asituation where I had an
instructor who really wasn't aninstructor, it was just a person
that happened to speak Arabic.
And you know, I would meet withthis nice young, nice elderly
gentleman in this case, you know, on a bi-weekly basis or
whatever to practice my Arabic.
I was my own instructor.
I had to dictate to this personhere's what we're going to work
on because, you know, he justdidn't know how to teach, and
(14:14):
teaching is an art and aprofession as well and you have
to know how to do that.
So, I think, knowing that as alearner, you have to be pushed,
you have to be pushed intouncomfortable zones to really,
you know, use and flex thosenewly acquired language muscles,
language skills and I wouldalso say that I know today, you
(14:35):
know, kind of the norm aroundeducation now is more of this
performance, task-based, reallybeing able to do something with
the language and I think that'ssuper meaningful to today's
learners and instructors inmaking that connection for
students about here's what we'regoing to learn.
But now let's all practice it.
Let's do something, let's havea role, let's do a scenario,
(14:59):
let's perform something, let'smake a phone call and rent an
apartment or whatever type ofthing, because the learner then
makes that connection to thereal world and this is how I can
actually put this language touse.
And then the strategies comeback to play.
Right Back to that imperfection.
I don't have to know the wordfor lobster if I'm at the
restaurant ordering lobster, butif I know the words for kind of
(15:22):
big red fish make my claws, youknow, with my hands I can
communicate and that's thebeauty of it.
You can still make yourselfknown even if your language is
not perfect.
And I did want to say one otherthing about learning as an older
adult.
If you will, you know we havein mind you can't learn anymore.
(15:44):
You know you kind of cementedyour brain's hardwired.
We know that.
We know now that the brain issuper neuroplastic and can
accommodate new things.
But I did some interviews withsome people a while ago.
I think you know this, nora,because I actually had mentioned
this to you a while ago and oneof the gentlemen I interviewed
talked about how, you know, inhis adulthood he decided to
(16:05):
learn Spanish because the jobthat he was in he dealt with a
lot of Spanish speakingindividuals and he didn't learn
a lot, he just learned enoughfor niceties and you know some
basic conversation and it openedso many doors for him in terms
of being able to establishrapport, relationships, that
sort of thing.
So for your listeners out there, it is never too late to pick
(16:31):
up language and go, for it isreally what I would say.
Norah Jones (16:37):
That's a great exhortation there and it was
interesting how beautifully yousaid it's about the humanity
right there.
It doesn't have to beimmediately applied to some kind
of practical thing outside of.
It's practically fun to behuman and to connect to one
another.
When you used the phraseearlier in this conversation
(16:59):
that the government was lookingfor foreign languages looking
for languages in to make a bigdifference in the national
security area, in thisparticular case, what seems to
be the status right now in theUnited States or and or the
world the listeners are outsideof the United States as well
(17:21):
With regard to governments andbusinesses, potentially on their
own, and also that may servegovernmental military procedures
.
Looking for languages.
Are they looking for languages?
Lorie Roule (17:35):
I would say definitely yes.
If anybody googled variousorganizations, both in national
security, maybe in elsewhere,but you know we are talking
about national security soGoogle those websites of those
various organizations and youwill see their language
requirements.
Not only for jobs where youknow like I managed a school, so
we obviously have instructors,you have to have the language
(17:55):
obviously to have that job butfor so many other jobs where
language enables you to do abetter job at what you're doing,
whether that's analysis orcollection or technical or
whatever, the governmentdefinitely is looking for
languages.
That said, what I would sayabout the government and based
on my own experience and whatI've kind of observed, even post
government, is and I actuallywrote a paper on this for the
(18:19):
National Intelligence Universitya while ago I think we tend to
be pretty reactive in government, we're not proactive in
thinking about language Anybody.
And for readers out there againwho aren't necessarily in the
United States, but if you justlook at the history of the
United States or the history ofthe world, you can pretty much
predict those languages thatwere important at those times
(18:40):
German, japanese during WorldWar II, you know, russian during
the Cold War and maybe nowagain Ukrainian, recently Arabic
, pashto, you know all thedifferent languages at different
sort of major internationalevents and in most cases and
again this is out there in thepublic domain the government's
been kind of one step behind.
(19:00):
Oh, my goodness, we needJapanese speakers.
The military said way back whenwhat do we do?
You know, and we're always inthat situation of what do we do?
Now?
We need people who can speakthe languages of these countries
where you know it's aboutadversaries, but it's also about
allies.
It's about being able to worktogether and establish those
(19:20):
human relationships that makethe world a safer place at the
end of the day.
So I would say, yes, governmentstill needs language.
That hasn't changed.
The world's just that muchsmaller.
The challenges are that muchmore interconnected.
Think Russian, not just aboutRussia, but Russian and cyber.
Think you know Arabic andclimate change.
(19:43):
Whatever the topic is, languagereally comes into play and I
only see that need growing and Iwould say, you know, I don't
think the government's doing abad job, but I think if it could
position itself to be moreproactive in things.
The other thing and I thinkthis is true in government, but
probably broadly too we see itin our school systems as well.
(20:03):
We tend to be, as a country,short-sighted about language.
Oh my gosh, it's reallyimportant.
We have to invest in it.
We're gonna grow budgets, we'regonna invest in it.
Yes, yes, yes.
We understand that at this giventime, japanese is important,
and then the problem goes awayand the attention goes away, and
then we suffer because yearslater, well, we have a need
(20:23):
again.
So how do we not be, not onlybe proactive, but Sustained and
mindful?
And when I think of education,or I also very much think of the
cognitive benefits thatlearning a language brings To an
individual and their ability,then it builds confidence.
For example, if you're willingto put yourself out there and
(20:44):
make mistakes in anotherlanguage, you're a great speaker
, you can get up on a stagesomewhere you know, you have
great negotiating skills.
There are so many skills thatyou can that you can parlay from
learning language that we tendto forget that, and that's a
benefit to our kids and to ourfuture, and yet we cut language
programs.
What are we thinking?
Norah Jones (21:05):
that sustainability , sustainability you win.
You had retired from theintelligence community's work,
specific work.
You have immersed yourself inadvocacy.
What are some of the pathwaysto advocacy for this language
(21:26):
future that you are engaged inright now.
What can the listeners learn,not only about you, but
potentially about what they canbe involved in?
Lorie Roule (21:36):
Yeah, I really appreciate that question, norah.
I've been a big believer alwaysin an Individual has the power
to kind of lead from where theyare.
As an individual, you know youcan only get too far.
When you join groups of people,you maybe you can get a little
bit further, particularly ifthey're like-minded people with
like-minded goals.
So I literally kind of stumbledupon knowledge of the JNCL
(21:58):
Nicholas language advocacy dayon the hill that takes place
every year.
We have our next one coming uphere at the end of February.
I just kind of stumbled uponthat.
I didn't even know that existedwhen I was in government.
I probably should have but Ididn't, and I wonder how many my
government could have done that.
I wonder how many my governmentcolleagues didn't know that
existed.
But that was an opportunity togo on the hill and you know it's
(22:20):
it's a lot of educators, butit's people beyond education
like myself, and really speakwith our congressional
Representatives about theimportance of language.
And, by the way, I thinkcongress by and large gets this.
Yeah, and it's not.
It's a bipartisan issue too,which is the beauty of it too.
I mean language.
You know who can argue with?
Language for national securityin particular, but really
language for just about anysector.
(22:41):
People can't really argue withthat.
Yeah, there is a need for that,no question about that.
So so now I go to the languageadvocacy days every year,
representing both my state ofVirginia, but I do have a little
part-time job where I'm workingwith a company in New Hampshire
that does language learningtechnology, transparent language
, and so I've represented orI've gone and talked to
(23:01):
congressional representativesfrom New Hampshire too, which
has really been kind of a coolexperience.
And then I ran into a dearfriend of mine from government,
a different organization Hisname is Tom Haynes who, along
with some colleagues, wererunning a state level advocacy
group called Global Virginia.
(23:21):
And I love the name becauseit's about the desire there is
to make every virginian citizenMore than one language in some
way shape, no matter what theage, no matter what the language
is.
You know, some of these peopleare obviously Not native English
speakers but whatever theirlanguage happens to be, and
partner it with another languageFor the benefit of the state
(23:43):
and our citizenry, for all thereasons that I mentioned Making,
you know, being able to be aglobal citizen, kind of, in the
world today.
So I've been very involved inboth of those groups.
Um, with global Virginia, I mean, I would do want to put a plug
in.
We've got a summit coming up.
It's a virtual summit.
It's going to be held on march19th and it is open to anyone.
(24:04):
So, um, I know, nora, you'll bementioning the website there Um
, our global virginiaorg.
People can go there and peoplecan sign up, and that actually
has a very specific theme to it.
What's the business case forlanguage skills today?
How do we marry need out there,particularly for trade economy
(24:26):
business, with Skill sets thatdo exist, and how do we pull
those two together?
So we're not kind of thinkingin terms of stovepipes.
So I'm really excited to seewhat comes of this.
We're going to have a couplepanels one addressing those
business skills or language forbusiness, and the other one
addressing language equity andaccess, which I think is another
(24:47):
Super important area in thisfield.
Norah Jones (24:50):
I'm looking forward to that summit again march 19th
2024, and the website again,Lorie, why don't?
Lorie Roule (24:59):
you.
Yes, it is wwwglobalvirginia,all one word, dot org.
And the registration link isright there when you open it up.
Norah Jones (25:09):
There'll be information, also with this
podcast, on my website, fluencydot consulting.
So I invite you to take a lookthere and follow the rabbit
trails there.
And so, taking a look at, whatis it when you then speak with,
engage with, work withbusinesses or those that Are
(25:34):
thinking about this concept Uh,is there a pushback that says,
well, english is a globallanguage, so this isn't really
necessary?
Uh, here in the united states,I know that that is a phrase
that is being used to.
Potentially it's used aboutone's own language other on
other places.
(25:55):
So help, help our listeners tounderstand what it is that you
do and, from an advocacy anddiscussion point of view, that
says the experience of someonespeaking the language that you
happen to be speaking is notnecessarily the fullest
expression of what we need, ifthat, in fact, is what is
happening.
Lorie Roule (26:14):
Yes, I mean definitely.
There's always that kind ofpushback, even among Students
who wanna you know, who are inschool still in saying, or in
college.
You know, why should I studylanguage?
You know, particularly with aand other things out there, like
, do I really need to know other, another language Businesses I
think probably some businesseswould have that same kind of
(26:34):
response to this.
I would say our advocacy upuntil now primarily has been
with helping Educators andstudents understand yeah, just
what can you do with a Frenchmajor in my case, and what does
that look like.
And you know, not just fornational security so, but, like
I said, for health, forhospitality, for real estate,
for music, for all kinds ofthings.
(26:56):
So that's been enjoyable towork that front of it and, I
think, helpful to our educators,in particular with their
students.
We've said wait over if youwill into the business arena,
because we do think that youknow there been studies out
there.
I think actual did a study aboutlanguage and business.
You know, if you look at ourown Virginia statistics, the
Virginia Chamber of Commerceactually touted the importance
(27:18):
of language in its blueprint for2030.
So there is a recognition.
I would say, by and large, thatlanguage is important and kind
of for a couple reasons here.
One is, yes, trade its moneyright boils down to money, you
know, being able to reallyconverse with people in other
countries and make deals, etc.
Etc.
That's an important aspect ofit.
(27:39):
But our country also has kind ofa growing Diverse population
where, for you know, many peoplelanguage English is not their
first language and they end upbeing hired by these various
companies in these variousbusinesses because they have
great language skills.
But I've seen now where peoplewho are working other their
(28:03):
fellow employees or maybemanagers or whatever there's
this desire to say I also wantto better connect, say, with my
employees.
You know, I run a group ofpeople that for whom maybe
English isn't their firstlanguage and, yeah, they speak
English.
That's fine, but I really wantto be able to get a deeper
connection with them as a goodmanager type of thing.
So we're seeing some of thatoccur as well, which is really
(28:26):
exciting.
So I think businesses absolutelyshould pay attention to our
educational system, should bedismayed when they hear a major
university is now cut itslanguage majors, for example.
And this is a concern of all ofus, not just those in education
, this is a concern of all of usand for business.
(28:49):
You can't on the one handclamor and say, yeah, having
somebody with language skills.
I mean I've had businesses sayto me All things being equal, on
a resume, if the person alsohas another language, they have
a foot up and getting this job,type of thing.
So you can't say that on theone hand and yet ignore what
might be happening with budgetsand things like that and
(29:09):
struggling and teacher shortages.
I mean that's another hugeproblem here in so many fields,
but in the language field aswell.
Norah Jones (29:18):
And one of the words that you used as you were
speaking.
There is about deeper connectionwith, say, the workers that are
in a business, and presumablywe could talk about those that
are in an office capacity Inalmost any industry, including
(29:40):
governmental and military and soforth.
When we take a look at some ofthe aspects of the ways that
businesses can struggle toattract and retain good
employees, there's a seems to bea connection between a few, if
you pardon the expression therebetween the ability to use
(30:04):
language but languages otherthan, say, english, let's go for
that for just a second but alsoan understanding, through the
learning of language, how peoplecommunicate and how do that do?
Go back to our beginning of ourconversation, how to do that
listening, that self awareness,that effective questioning of
(30:29):
one's hearing, one'sunderstanding.
There's a really big picturehere of what language can
sensitize people within businessindustry to be able to attract,
retain and increase theeffectiveness of their employees
, just straight up, because ofhow language works with the
human brain.
(30:50):
Am I like speaking somethingthat makes sense based on your
experience?
Lorie Roule (30:55):
Yeah, absolutely it makes sense, nora.
I mean, at the end of the day,I think that language is about
connection and humanrelationships.
And think of any businessenvironment.
You know, you really have toknow how people work.
You know whether you're amanager and you're managing
people, or you're a colleagueand these are your peers, or you
(31:17):
know your managers, becausethere's such a thing as managing
up to, but really in a goodsense, and I mean that too.
But this whole idea of humanrelationships, language really
does come into play and howpeople think absolutely really
language playing such animportant role and just
understanding one another.
And when you mentioned the wordretention, I think what
(31:39):
resonates, obviously salariesare important and those kinds of
things, monetary rewards.
People have to make a living,but I think a primary factor
that makes people happy at work,find joy at work, is when they
have meaningful work and reallyhave a sense that they belong,
and language is a huge part ofthat.
(32:00):
So embracing somebody for thebackground that they bring, the
experiences that they bring andthe languages plural perhaps
that they bring to the job, Ithink really, whether they're
actively using that language onthe job or not, you know, I had
a story from a friend who doestours, gives tours, and he's a
(32:21):
retiree, and he said that youknow, it's here in the DC area.
So, as you can imagine, we havevisitors from a lot of
different countries and he knowslike six or seven languages.
He's just amazing and he knowsthem all pretty well.
And so he has a tour group fromGermany and suddenly he's
switching into German.
You know, this is just a funactivity that he's doing.
You know, it doesn't have to belike part of your day to day
(32:43):
job.
In fact, I have a hypothesisthat if you have another
language, you will use it.
You will find a way to use itno matter what, and I've seen so
many examples of that.
Norah Jones (32:57):
Give us one, give us another one.
Lorie Roule (32:58):
So this was a beautiful story of somebody that
I interviewed who is aphysician's assistant and she
doesn't need language for herjob.
You know she's in a hospital,works in a hospital, but she
happened to have studied Spanishand actually did an immersion,
I think, in Peru or somewhereshe had mentioned to me, for
(33:20):
like three months or whatever.
So her Spanish was pretty good.
And during COVID and she livesin a big city during COVID there
were a number of patients whocontracted COVID this was in the
early stages of the pandemicwho, you know, might have been
homeless, might not have hadmuch of an income, and here they
(33:41):
are in this situation whereit's a life-threatening disease
and they don't speak Englishvery well, but they speak
Spanish and she was able to useher Spanish again not part of
her day-to-day job, but shehappened to have Spanish to
comfort these people, to letthem know that they were going
to be housed in a hotel for theduration of their illness, to
let them know what was going tohappen to them, what procedures
(34:02):
were going to take place.
I mean, that is a really thatwas a story that brought tears
to my eyes of somebody whohappened to have Spanish, right
place, right time using it.
Norah Jones (34:14):
That connection that allows us to be humane
under difficult circumstances,even if we are not officially
using the language for our work,as you say.
Thank you for sharing that verytouching story.
Laura, you've been and areengaged in this advocacy.
How, then, do you feel thatothers could be engaged in
(34:37):
advocacy?
What kind of insights would youlike to provide, an
encouragement would you like toprovide to folks who are looking
at advocacy at various levelsand various approaches?
Please?
Lorie Roule (34:48):
Well, there are the formal kinds of things that
exist.
I mentioned the languageadvocacy days.
That's at the national level.
That's open to anybody and,nora, you'll probably put
something on your website sopeople can figure out how they
can join that certainly.
So that's out there.
Global Virginia, which isn'tlimited to Virginians.
So if you want to be a part ofthat, we absolutely come to our
summit.
That's what I could say on that.
(35:08):
But even at an individual level, I'll give you a concrete
example of something thatoccurred maybe a month or two
ago.
I get newsletters from mycongressional representative.
You know constituents.
A newsletter comes out.
It's talking about STEM, whichis great.
That's important.
Those are important skill setsand opportunities for high
school students around STEMWonderful.
(35:30):
So I received this newsletterand I think, hmm, why doesn't
this congressperson mentionedsomething about world languages
and how important they are?
So I wrote to them, got invitedto the office.
They want to do a roundtablearound language.
So this is just Lorie Ruhl,private citizen, saying I want
to try to do something herewithin my power to do gets back
(35:51):
to that kind of leading fromwhere you are.
If you're in a business inparticular, whether you're a
parent or not, why not check outyour like local school district
and see if you can come talkabout what your business does?
You know, I don't know if theystill have.
You know, kind of bring yourparent to class days or career
days or whatever that might looklike, but check it out, go
(36:12):
there.
The other thing is being alsosmart about what language
learning looks like today.
There are some wonderful wayslanguages being taught that are
different from what Iexperienced years ago, even
though I adored and lovelanguages.
But you know, people tendpeople tend to have that.
Oh yeah, I failed high schoolSpanish because you know we were
doing conjugations all day long.
It doesn't look like that inthe language classroom anymore.
(36:34):
So, being smart about what thatlooks like, I'll put in another
plug for business.
If you're in a business, canyou offer an opportunity for an
internship for a high schoolstudent that somehow touches on
language in some way, shape orform?
That would be a cool thing todo.
So I think you know, if I werestarting off on this nor and
(36:55):
saying how can I get involved, Iwould look at my immediate
surroundings, the landscapearound me.
Where can I make a difference?
Is it a school district?
Is it businesses that I know Isit interacting with
congressional representatives orlocal right State level
representatives or your localchamber of commerce, but making
(37:16):
your voice heard and your voiceknown is something that's within
anyone's power to do.
Norah Jones (37:22):
That it is Well said, anyone's power, the joy
that is and the energy that areclearly in your voice as we are
speaking, is so much fun.
And that brings out anotherconcept here the wonderful
pathways that we can follow asindividuals to things that we
find interesting.
And I love, when I talk toguests, to be able to find out
(37:45):
what interesting pathwayslanguage has taken them that
people might not predict.
For example, we have on mywebsite the information about
you and fluency dot consulting,and one of the resources that is
listed there is aboutreencuentro, taino conference.
(38:06):
Tell us about that.
That.
That Spanish word means whatthis particular Taino conference
is all about.
Lorie Roule (38:14):
Yes, so I was honored to be asked to be part
of the advisory board for arelatively recent effort.
That was from a dear, dearfriend of mine.
Her name is Priscilla Cologne.
She, with others working withothers though embarked on a
journey to revive the Tainolanguage, which was a language
(38:38):
that so the and I don't speakSpanish.
Actually, I'm trying to teachmyself Spanish now, I just want
you to know that's my nextlanguage adventure, but I'm not
that fluent.
But it really means revivingreviving of the Taino language
that was thought to have diedlike 500 years ago, and it
hasn't.
And people in she's from PuertoRico and people in that part of
(39:00):
the world and in other countries, in the Caribbean in particular
, that is the language thattheir Families spoke, that she's
embarked on a revival of, andshe held a conference, or she
and others organized a hugeconference last summer in Puerto
Rico with attendees from allwalks of life art,
(39:23):
archaeologists, artists,linguists, filmmakers.
There was so much energy aroundthis effort to revive the
language, and the intent is tonow move forward with a whole I
mean for me, who's a bit of abystander giving some advice
here and there to help her andsome ideas to think about
(39:46):
Watching how this whole thingExplorished in a matter of just
a couple years.
She's also written some kidsbooks that are in both English
and Taino, english and Spanishor Spanish and Taino.
It's just amazing and that kindof set me on this whole aspect
of my language journey, which isthere are a lot of languages
(40:07):
out there that both needRevitalized, that need invested
in their endangered languages,and it gets back to that point
of belonging.
Nora gets back to that point ofreally recognizing people,
honoring where they came fromand Ensuring that we as humanity
don't lose the preciousness ofthese languages and how people
(40:31):
think and etc.
Etc.
So you know, put out a plug foranother organization out there.
I know 7,000 languages, 7,000languages dot org and they're
all about helping variouslanguages language communities
revive their languages.
In the United States thatincludes many, many Native
American.
(40:51):
You know languages, as you canimagine as well.
Norah Jones (40:55):
Absolutely, and it's been interesting because I
had just recently had aninterview with a guest, tim
Brooks, with endangeredAlphabet's org, and that the
right revitalization oflanguages spoken and written is
just fascinating, I think,absolutely fascinating.
So there's a pathway listenersfor the, the, the joy of that
(41:21):
belonging and that identitythat's found through
revitalization Potentially ofboth individuals lives has also
these groups.
You also have one of theresources of reference to the
planet, word.
Can you tell us about how yougot engaged with that and what,
how that interacts with whatyou're Enjoying doing with
(41:43):
languages in your background?
Lorie Roule (41:46):
Yes, so Probably my favorite museum in Washington
DC is planet word has beenaround all that long.
It actually opened during thepandemic but Anne Friedman Was
the inspiration behind it andcreated it and is the head of it
, and I was very honored.
I think it was because ourhusbands knew one another and
(42:07):
somehow the connection betweenshe and me was made and you know
, she offered for me to be amember of her Auguste very
Auguste advisory board.
But I mean, this is a museumthat is certainly, you know,
languages around the world comeinto play and they've got this
great display where you can hearvarying languages around the
(42:27):
world.
But it's also about the love oflanguage itself, the words, the
importance of words, how theyplay in poetry, how they play in
advertising, how words are usedto convince, manipulate,
negotiate it really, for anybodyout there, like I do and in
(42:48):
fact you know you're in mylibrary here I've got like
shelves of books about languagesand how languages work.
For anybody who's interested inthat planet word is a must Must
see if you will, and they'vegot a lot of.
You know, if your listeners arein many different countries and
can't easily travel to theStates, they've got a lot of
virtual programs as well thatyou might want to sign up and
listen to on a whole host oftopics about the love of
(43:11):
language.
Norah Jones (43:11):
Great.
I'm looking forward to folkshaving a chance to look at that
and thank you for what you'redoing in in Enjoying it and also
being part of the board so thatit can continue to flourish.
Thanks for that dedication toLorie.
We're coming to where that isto finish the conversation,
(43:32):
unfortunately, because I justenjoy everything we always chat
about.
One last question what is itthat you would like to Bring up
that I had not yet asked about,but that's on your heart, or
that you feel is so important toreemphasize?
However, you would like tointerpret that last word that
(43:52):
you make sure that our listenershear from you as we end this
podcast.
Lorie Roule (43:59):
Thank you, nora, for that opportunity, and I
loved conversing with you.
I do feel like we could go onall day, but unfortunately all
good things must come to an end,so it's okay with you.
I'd actually like to leave youwith a quote from my mom.
When I interviewed a bunch ofpeople from different walks of
life a couple months ago aboutLanguage and how they use their
(44:23):
language, and stories like thephysician's assistant story that
I came up with, I also decidedto interview my parents, and my
dad had actually learned ASL.
Just a quick sidebar, he hadactually learned American Sign
Language because he had a deafemployee work for him and that
was fantastic and you know hetook the time as a foreman to
(44:45):
learn the language so that hecould converse with her, which
was so he talked about that.
But here's what my mom saidlanguage is very important to
bring people together.
Communication may bring peace.
If we can communicate togetherin a caring and loving way,
there will be peace in the world.
Thanks, mom.
Norah Jones (45:06):
Please thank her from me, too, and from the
listeners.
What, uh, what a touching,powerful.
And thank you for bringingtears to my eye and voice, and
Please do thank your mom forbeing a person who understands
exactly what language can do.
What a fine ending.
(45:28):
Thank you, my friend, for beinghere today, for sharing all of
your passion and skills, or atleast as many as we could fit in
in the time of the podcast foreveryone.
Continue, please, your powerfulwork and leadership.
Thank you for all you're doing.
Lorie Roule (45:44):
Thank you, nora, it was my great pleasure to be
here.
Norah Jones (45:48):
Thank you for listening to this podcast with
my guest, Lorie Roule.
Check out Laurie and theresources and references at my
website, fluency dot Consulting,and take a look around in your
life and the lives of those youknow around you.
Where do you see the power oflanguage and culture at work?
(46:11):
You, you.
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