March 7, 2025 • 31 mins
Cesar shares why listening is such an important skill in life and in business, and he delves into the story behind his book: The Powers of Addiction: Finding Freedom in Acceptance and Recovery, He discusses how advocating for oneself can help others support your goals and explains how focusing on really understanding people allows him to optimize individuals’ potential and build high-performing teams. Cesar also encourages us to embrace opportunities to connect with others and how it has benefitted his career.
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Episode Transcript
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Lan Elliott (00:00):
Hello and welcome to It's Personal Stories, a
hospitality podcast.
My name is Lan Elliott on behalfof It's Personal Stories.
And today I am so happy to havewith us Cesar Wurm.
He is a friend and a formercolleague and is just
(00:20):
wonderfully accomplished.
If you are not familiar withCesar, please go to our website
where you can learn more abouthis many accomplishments.
Welcome Cesar.
Cesar Wurm (00:31):
Thank you, Len.
Appreciate the kind introductionand for having me.
Thanks again for having me.
Super excited to be here.
Lan Elliott (00:38):
Oh, I am so excited to talk with you and to learn
more about you because you getto know people when you work
with them, but not reallystories.
But I am curious about yourjourney and what were the
inflection points along the way?
And is there a through line or afactor that you think was really
(00:59):
critical in your success?
Cesar Wurm (01:02):
Yeah.
Yes, I, yes, there are I think afew parts to this question.
I think one, I've been veryfortunate to somehow fall within
this industry that you and Ihave had the pleasure to work in
many years.
It's a very fulfilling industry.
I wasn't necessarily the beststudent coming up, so my options
(01:25):
of schooling have but I got anexperience to work in
hospitality early on in my life,and I enjoyed the interactions,
the atmosphere.
So then at the time in Brazilwas my first year of college
where hospitality was becoming.
An area of focus.
I joined a college there, wentto Switzerland, finished my
(01:46):
schooling, and then got here tothe U S to do really what I
thought would be a one yearinternship.
And 24 years later, I'm stillhere.
And yeah, when I look back on myjourneys, really a few things
that resonate and I see apattern, one is the.
I always been surrounded bygreat people.
(02:06):
I always been super fortunate tohave great people around me, top
alongside and, collaboratingfrom other areas.
So I always felt really luckyfrom that perspective and just
being able to learn from thesepeople, having people that
really gave me opportunities.
(02:27):
Sometimes before I was quiteready for those, but they knew
that, figure out or hadpotential to eventually get
where I needed to.
And I always really, I alwayshad the mentality of, I always
say yes to the opportunity andthen I worry, figure out how I'm
going to, how I'm going to doit, right?
Have some sleepless nightsfiguring out what did I do?
(02:50):
But but then, it always worksout somehow, right?
It's not always easy, but you goalong.
So I think that's really some ofthe patterns that I see looking
back that I reflect on.
I
Lan Elliott (03:03):
love the concept of saying yes, even when you're not
sure that you're ready, but justdiving into it and knowing that
you'll figure it out as you go.
I think a lot of us learn tobuild the airplane while it's
flying and it's such a greatskill.
One of the things we hear from alot of leaders is that curiosity
(03:24):
is a big part of their path andthe need to develop new skills
as they advance in theircareers.
And I'm curious, where do youseek out resources when you're
looking to grow as a
Cesar Wurm (03:39):
leader?
Yeah, that is a great questionbecause it's interesting we have
a daughter and she's 14 and WhenI look back as she grew, and
then as I get older, you startseeing our curiosity tends to
slow down a little bit from whenyou're like a young kid, you're
(03:59):
always asking why, why, why, whyis this, why is that, and then
eventually we start justaccepting some things as they
are.
So I think it's a very validpoint where we have to
intentionally You know, stayfocused and always ensure that
you're hungry to learn more.
And I think, there's a fewthings that I focus on to do
that.
One is listening.
(04:21):
It's like we've been talking,right?
We work together and I think wehave, we're surrounded in this
industry by so many people that,you may work in an everyday
situation or you may see them ina conference, whatever the case
may be.
But if you just really.
Listen to what people say.
It's amazing how much we canlearn right from their journeys,
(04:42):
from their experience.
So that has been something thathas been really helpful.
And then really second isreading for the most part.
I enjoy reading.
I don't read.
I usually tend to read thingsabout leadership, psychology.
These are things that are alittle bit easier for me to
relate than something that's alittle bit more very data is
(05:06):
strictly driven.
So I enjoy that.
So that, always gets curiosityon how to.
How to communicate, how toengage with people.
Then, of course, within ourindustry, there are so many good
publications and blogs.
So I always read those from timeto time.
But yeah, I think it's alwaysimportant to keep that and
always be open minded to otheropinions and differences.
(05:31):
Right?
Because a lot of times we may bedoing this for years.
And sometimes there's a fairlynewcomer.
That joins and they may havefresh, wonderful perspectives
that, we need to be open to it.
Lan Elliott (05:45):
I have been the beneficiary of your listening
skills.
I remember when I had a verydifficult project I was trying
to figure out.
And I remember my first meetingwith you and how you listened so
intently.
And then your answers were sospecific and spot on.
They weren't just, this is whatI normally say, that was really
responding to what the issueswere.
(06:07):
Were that we were discussing, soI think that skill of listening
really carefully can be reallypowerful and I love the reading
the leadership books.
Do you have a favorite one thatyou could share with our
audience?
Cesar Wurm (06:21):
Wow, I have a lot one that stuck to.
My mind is I read many years agois the leadership by John
Maxwell that helped me a lot.
My career as I was evolving andworking with the same people in
different capacities.
So that has helped me a lot froma mindset perspective.
(06:43):
But yeah, there was many aroundthe growth mindset that I really
enjoy that has been superbeneficial.
But yeah, that one jumps at mefor some reason,
Lan Elliott (06:54):
make a note to check that one.
Thank you for sharing that.
So speaking of books, yourecently published a book called
The Powers of Addiction, FindingFreedom and Acceptance and
Recovery, which I find to beextraordinary how you would work
as hard as I know you do andhave the time to write this
(07:15):
book, but tell me why you wrotethe book and I know one of the
themes in the book is thatvulnerability is a superpower.
So I am curious about that aswell.
Cesar Wurm (07:28):
Yeah.
So I wrote the book in kind oftwo main stages.
One was when I first startedgetting sober over 10 years ago.
It was really, I start.
Writing as if it was a book, butin reality, it was a lot of my
own processing of theinformation because how I was
(07:51):
carrying my life was I had torelearn everything I had to
relearn what to do with my time,how to structure my day, you
know what to do for a hobby thatis healthy and so on.
So that was very interestingbecause it's really.
I look back my, entire life andretrospective, internalizing a
lot of that.
(08:12):
So I wrote that.
For several months and then Istopped and then around COVID a
friend of mine he wrote a coupleof books and he made a comment
that he had, he stoppeddrinking.
So then I reached out to him, wereconnected and then I said,
Hey, I wrote these years agoand.
I had not never shared that withanyone except my wife and then I
(08:35):
gave to him and he read and hecalled me right away and said,
man, you gotta do something.
There is a book here.
So go finish it.
So what's the nudge that Ineeded?
And then, Thankfully, duringthat time, I was approaching my
eighth year of sobriety.
So I was in a very differentstage where I felt, I felt ready
(08:56):
to start sharing that because inthe beginning, I was very
ashamed.
I had a lot of guilt, had my ownbias about addiction.
And so it's interesting thateven though you experienced
that, you have all these allthese negative connections about
someone that has addiction.
And, but then I, how I reallyhad the courage, to, to put it
(09:19):
out there was two, two prongedapproach.
One, I was like, Hey, if I wantthings to change, if I want
people to see that differentlyor understand a little bit
better.
It has to start people like methat we went through it, because
if I don't do it, how can Iexpect anything to change?
And then the second one is if Ican help anyone avoid, some of
(09:43):
the things I went through.
Or even understand if they havea loved one that is going
through a similar situation.
Or just educate someone forwhatever reason.
I think that'll be worthwhilebecause I want to look back in
my life when I'm older and say,okay, I, I made it.
Some sort of positivecontribution above and beyond.
(10:04):
So
Lan Elliott (10:04):
absolutely.
And also the idea of helpingother people after your
experience.
Talk more about vulnerabilitybeing a superpower.
Because I post that at a familydinner recently, and I got a lot
of pushback on this idea.
So I'm curious to hear yourthoughts big theme in your book.
(10:28):
So
Cesar Wurm (10:28):
yeah, it is.
And listen, I am biased.
So perhaps, you're taking theperspective off.
or big believers.
So perhaps the truth somewherein the middle.
But the, it's not easy to getthere.
And I think it's not comfortabletoo.
And I think there is always,it's hard to strike a balance
(10:52):
between being too open.
Not being open enough and doingthis in an authentic way.
So I know that everyone isdifferent and that's when I
connect with people.
I share that, listen, justbecause I do it and the way I do
it, it's right for me at thisstage in my life and what I
(11:13):
believe in.
But it's different for everyone.
Some people are in differentstages.
They and that's okay.
And that's okay.
So I think at least what I tellpeople is at least you gotta be
authentic and vulnerable withyourself, right?
So whenever you look yourself inthe mirror.
That's you got to get there andthat's that was not easy for me
(11:35):
because for me to get sober,that was my first step, right?
I had to acknowledge hey, you'renot living the best way you can,
right?
If you keep doing this way, youlose everything.
And, I couldn't look myself inthe eyes and say to myself that
I was proud of who I was.
So that was the beginning of myjourney.
(11:55):
But then.
As I work through my own thingsand start evolving, then I start
opening up little by little.
And then that's when I realizedthat, whoa, this is powerful
because to your point, it's notsuper common, right?
It's not every day that you meetsomeone that they will be
(12:16):
vulnerable or share somethingabove and beyond the usual
business talk or friendlyconversation.
And the response that I got frompeople when I did that is was
eye opening to me because thenonce you start that, I always
got it back and from an expectedpeople, right?
(12:36):
People that are always veryclose with me then, because I
think creates a sense of trust,a sense of comfort when they
feel, okay, if he volunteeredthis information with me, then I
feel comfortable, perhaps share.
Little something or have adeeper connection.
And I think a lot of peoplecrave it, right?
To your point, we were always sobusy on our day to day.
(13:00):
We're always have like meetingsback to back.
You barely have time to doanything.
So I think when you have thosefew moments that you can have
that connection, it can beimpactful.
Lan Elliott (13:10):
I do think there is a way that you can connect with
someone if you're Ready for it.
If they're vulnerable andsharing themselves, you can
really connect in a much deeperway than the superficial way
that we normally move throughthe world when we're busy and
trying to get things done.
And I think in terms of buildingteams and in terms of building.
(13:32):
deeper relationships.
It's a really important piece ofit.
Because I think we spent a lotof time trying to be perfect all
the time.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
Yeah,
Lan Elliott (13:40):
I definitely tried that.
And I think just being a littlemore vulnerable with my
struggles would have gotten mefurther than trying to be
perfect.
So I love the way you've talkedabout that.
Cesar Wurm (13:51):
Yeah.
I thought you were perfect whenI was, I remember first time I
met with you I was prettyintimidated.
I said, man she's a smart woman.
She knows what she's doing.
Lan Elliott (14:01):
I know my corner of the world.
I didn't know anything aboutyour corner of the world.
But I do think one of the thingsyou do really well is develop
connections with people andrelationships with people.
And it's very easy to gravitatetowards you.
You always have a really warmsmile.
And I'm curious if developing anetwork, is that something
(14:26):
that's comfortable for you, howdo you do it in a way that's
authentic to you?
Cesar Wurm (14:33):
Yeah, I never had this asked this way.
It's I developed this from avery good space and a very not
so positive space.
So let me tell you that the goodspace is when I lost my mom when
I was 12.
But up until then, like we weresuper close and she was very,
(14:55):
very warm.
So and she was She got alongwith people very nicely.
So I think I learned a lot andemulate a lot from that.
Just that early exposure in lifeand so on.
And that I was carried througheverything in life, right?
From just connecting withpeople, being able to just
(15:15):
understanding other people'spoint of view.
Like a lot of times it's veryrare that I voice very strong
opinions, and can't.
Get along with someone, right?
Because I always try toempathize and see where people
are coming from, especially now,more so now that I went through
(15:35):
my journey of sobriety becauseyou understanding how sometimes
people are just not in a greatspace, right?
So it's not necessarily areflection of you or anything
like that.
And maybe just a space wherethey're at.
So I think just having,understanding that can help a
lot, but then I also, I'mashamed to say this, but a lot
(15:56):
of these also came with myaddiction because you become
very good about navigatingsituations.
And so you develop a lot ofthese skills as well that at the
time I was using, to survive,but sustain my lifestyle.
When, in reality, wasn't for ahealthy reason or the right
(16:17):
reason but I think that's whereit becomes the superpower,
right?
Because the ability to connect.
When you're doing that for thegood and the right intent, the
right reason, it is great.
And and I'm just really enjoyconnecting with people generally
speaking.
So yeah, it always camenaturally to me.
Lan Elliott (16:38):
It's wonderful to have your mother to remember her
and emulate that.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Yeah.
Lan Elliott (16:43):
That's a wonderful way to think about it.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
Yeah.
Lan Elliott (16:49):
Let's talk a little bit about mentors and champions.
And.
I'm curious if you've had themin your career and how important
do you think they are and howdoes one go about finding a
champion?
Cesar Wurm (17:06):
Yeah I've had and continue to have it.
And it's funny because some ofthem, it became organic.
So I have friends that I haveworked, as far as 20 plus years.
that they were my mentors thenand then they became my mentors
and they still today, eventhough it's not like a
(17:26):
traditional official mentor, butit's just, they become my big
brothers, big sister and justreally helped me continue to
develop even in a kind ofinformal way.
And then from time to time, Ilook for.
People either because of my roleor whatever the goals are in the
(17:48):
next few years, I really try tosurround myself with people that
can provide a differentperspective than I have, because
I, I know the things that I dowell, and I know my strengths,
but I also know where I'm notgood at and the things that I,
it's just not my forte.
I'm not wired that way, or ittakes me a lot of effort to do
(18:08):
something well.
So I like to get it.
people that will bring thatvalue.
But then also that I know theywill give me honest and
unfiltered feedback, but from agood place, right?
Not to hurt me or to put medown.
But so I always like to do that.
And one, it's interestingsomeone that has been like super
(18:30):
important my entire life isreally my wife Laura, because
she knows me so well, not onlyfrom a work standpoint, but also
from a personal that, she callsme on things and she holds me
accountable.
So I love that because, and Ihave to listen to her, right?
If I don't listen, then we havea problem.
Lan Elliott (18:52):
It is great to have those people around you who can
tell you really how it is.
Sometimes it's not always whatyou want to hear, but to
understand that sometimes youneed to hear it, but to find
those people that you feel safeto hear those things from and
that they have your bestinterest.
Cesar Wurm (19:13):
Yeah.
What about you?
Lan Elliott (19:17):
I think I struggled with finding a mentor because I
really tried to find someone wholooked like me and in and hotel
real estate.
There were not many people.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
No,
Lan Elliott (19:29):
I wasted a lot of time when I could have found
mentors that now I think aboutit more like a patchwork quilt
and I have mentors that help mewith different things.
To put together the differentaspects and the different needs
that I have.
And I reach out to differentpeople for different things.
That's probably moreappropriately called a personal
(19:50):
board of directors, but I foundthat worked better for me rather
than waiting for that oneperfect person.
And, but there's all differentways that people can get there,
but so valuable, right?
For seeing your blind spotsbecause you don't know what you
don't know.
And I've done much better to,instead of trying to be perfect
to.
Have asked for help.
Cesar Wurm (20:11):
Yeah, that is great.
Lan Elliott (20:15):
Wanted to move on to advocating for ourselves,
because this can be a challengefor some people to ask for that
thing that they want for whatmight be a raise.
It might be a promotion, and Iknow I've been guilty of that as
well.
I wanted something and then Ididn't tell anybody.
People don't read minds, so I'mcurious.
(20:41):
What advice would you offer topeople who are struggling to
find their voice and what is theright way to ask for something
that you want?
Cesar Wurm (20:50):
Yeah, that is a great one because it is hard.
I, to your point, like you Istruggle with it.
It's, for many people, itdoesn't come naturally because
you think you're bragging aboutyourself or you're being I don't
know, too aggressive is theright word, but you're, you're a
lot of times, I think, at leastto me.
(21:13):
Advocating for yourself almostbecomes a negative connotation
when it shouldn't, to yourpoint, is like I think if you
approach this from a good space,from a logical space and a value
proposition, I think, a lot oftimes people will expect you to
do that, and I think you'll besurprised the support you're
(21:35):
going to get, at least the fewtimes that I did that for
myself.
Again, very positive response,right?
I think you, the only tips Ihave is just make sure that you
have clarity on the ask, right?
And that, that is somewhatwithin reality, within reason
that you're asking for somethingthat, CEO of HG tomorrow, right?
(22:01):
That's not going to happen.
But if you say, Hey, listen, Iwould like to get here.
I think that in.
In a few months, I might beready either for project or the
next step and and this is why soI think at least even if you get
a not now type of response,that's okay, right?
Because it opens up the door forconversations to have a more
(22:25):
solid path.
So both parties have clarity andthen also shows what's the word
initiative.
I chose that you want somethingthat you're invested.
So I think there's a lot ofpositives.
And I think and you wouldwelcome your feedback.
But especially from when Istarted to today, I think
(22:46):
conversations about salarycompensation, just.
Recognition, generally speaking,I think is much more open and
there's an appetite to besomewhat much more imperative
than before.
That was very uneven.
And so I think that a lot oftimes that will be welcomed.
(23:06):
even if you don't get a, animmediate yes, I think there's a
lot of good that comes to it.
I
Lan Elliott (23:11):
absolutely agree.
And I think sometimes it helpspeople understand what you're
aspiring to do, and then theycan be helpful along your path.
If they understand where you'retrying to go, maybe they can
help you get there.
Maybe it's not now, but at leastthey can say, Hey, you want to
go from A to B.
This doesn't Get you immediatelythere, but we can give you these
(23:34):
projects that are going to setyou up better for success.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
And
Lan Elliott (23:38):
so I think sharing what you're looking for is a
little bit vulnerable, but it isalso a way for people to help
you.
Cesar Wurm (23:47):
Yes.
Yes.
And one, one thing that Ilearned the hard way earlier in
my career, and even like today,I really have to.
Purposefully think about it.
I think it's important forpeople to Kind of share, right?
Some of their efforts, some oftheir contributions, not, got to
(24:10):
be in a thoughtful way again,and something that is of value
that provides information toyour partners, people you work
with, but, it's not good whenthere is a void where people
say, Hey what Caesar does,right?
Or what is his value for theorganization?
If there is a void there thatpeople can't articulate, It's
(24:31):
not going to be most likely apositive void because people
usually goes to Hey, I'm doingX, Y and Z.
So if there is anything thatyou, someone can help develop
from that perspective and ensurethat there is a narrative there
that is, not noise, but real.
I think that will be reallybeneficial as well.
Lan Elliott (24:51):
Yeah, that's a really good point that people do
need to know what you do so thatif they're going to speak up on
your behalf, it's really helpfulif they know what you do.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
Yes.
Lan Elliott (25:03):
Let's talk about building high performing teams
because you led a number ofteams I know at IHG and at other
places.
How do you go?
About doing that, because youcome in and in your area in the
commercial area of the business,people are looking for you to
(25:24):
really help make a differencefor the hotel's top line, and
you either inherit a team or youhave to build a team.
How do you approach that?
And, what do you look for whenyou're interviewing for people
when you're building a team?
Cesar Wurm (25:40):
Yes, eat.
So I think whenever coming toeither a new position or a
situation thing is your firstquestion is a little bit off.
Learning and listening, I think,before you can figure out what
the next steps or where to go, Ithink is great to have a good
sense.
Of course, the data, thenumbers, you got to know that
(26:01):
really well.
But then also understand theculture, the each individual
player, what's their strengths,what they bring.
And, is everyone kind of beingoptimized?
And contributing, to the team'sperformance, because I think
once you understand the teamplayers, and I think that's
(26:22):
where a lot of my wings in mycareer came is from really
understanding people andunderstanding what's their
strengths, what drives them andthen just Over, take all the
hurdles so they can focus onjust being their true selves and
then their best selves.
And it's amazing, right?
When people feel that they'resupported, they have the
(26:45):
direction of where we're goingand what they, what part they're
playing on it and gettingconstant reassurance.
And whenever something doesn'tgo wrong you just address
quickly and move on.
That's when I found that things.
But a lot of times, for example,on, on hiring, I always try to
see what we may have the biggestopportunity at and try to find
(27:09):
someone that fits that, but Igot many things wrong, right?
I know a lot of times I thoughtthat, Hey I'm a good interviewer
and, I'm becoming better, butthere's always opportunity.
A lot of times you believe youhired the right person and then
end up not being the case.
And then but I think, justhaving.
(27:31):
Open, honest conversations upfront is very helpful where you
ensure that, hey, if this works,you see the right fit for both
parties.
So I don't know if I reallyanswered your question.
No, I
Lan Elliott (27:44):
think you did.
And I love the idea of reallygetting to know the players so
that you can figure out if youcan figure out what drives
people, you can really figureout how to motivate them and
make sure they're in the rightroles doing the right thing.
And ensuring that everybody'smoving in the same direction on
accomplishing what you need
Cesar Wurm (28:02):
to.
Yeah.
Because I am like, again, onthe, I tend to err on the human
side, perhaps too much, right?
I think you're going to haveleaders that is very system
oriented and process driven.
I'm a little bit more to theother side.
And I think regardless of howtechnology evolves and I think,
(28:22):
listen, that's always going tobe a benefit to that.
But I think the end of the day,what really makes or break or
really take something to thehighest levels will be people.
And having that ability toinfluence the situation,
whatever the case may be.
So that's where I spend a lot ofmy focus and try to.
(28:43):
Deliver.
Lan Elliott (28:44):
Caesar, you know how much I enjoy talking with
you, but the end of ourconversation and I had to final
quick questions for you.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
Okay.
Lan Elliott (28:55):
First is what advice would you give to your
younger self to 22 year oldCaesar starting his work life?
What advice would you give thatperson?
Cesar Wurm (29:08):
Be you.
I struggle a lot in early mycareer trying to think what
other people thought about me,right?
You'll never know what they'rethinking anyway, and it's not
your business.
So, just be yourself.
Try to get more comfortable inyour own skin.
That's when usually you tend tobe at your best.
(29:29):
Yeah, that's what I'll tell my.
Younger self.
Lan Elliott (29:33):
It's great advice.
It's easier said than done.
Yes, it is.
Great advice.
Definitely a journey to do that.
And one last questions.
Caesar, you've offered so muchgreat advice through your
journey and keeping in mind thatthe mission of its personal
stories is around empoweringpersonal success.
(29:54):
Do you have one final nugget ofadvice for our audience who are
looking to advance theircareers?
Cesar Wurm (30:01):
Yes, my advice would be to really embrace the
opportunity to connect withothers.
And what I mean by that to yourquestion about curiosity, take
advantage to connect withpeople, learn about them, learn
from them.
And you'll be surprised not howmuch you grow, how much you can
(30:22):
help others along the way, andthen how much eventually you'll
get in return.
Cause a lot of the opportunitiesI got in my career and in my
life, weren't immediateresponses or from engagement,
but are 10, 20, 30 years ago,and then eventually it comes.
(30:42):
So that is a wonderful journeybecause it.
The surprises never stop, and Ithink people can benefit a lot
from it.
Lan Elliott (30:52):
That was wonderful advice.
I wish I had that advice when Iwas 22 years old, by the way.
Thank you so much.
These are for being on.
I always love how warm andwelcoming you are.
And I definitely see all theparts of really connecting with
people authentically that you doso well.
I could see why that's a bigpart of your success.
(31:15):
So thank you for being on today.
Cesar Wurm (31:17):
Thank you.
And thanks again for everythingthat you're doing for our
industry for this developmentalconversations, because we need
more and more of this right foryounger generations to come.
And so you're doing an amazingjob.
Thank you again
Lan Elliott (31:34):
and for our audience.
If you've enjoyed thisconversation with Caesar, I hope
you'll go to our website.
It's personal stories dot com,where you can find many more in
industry leader interviews.
Thank you, Caesar.
Cesar Wurm (31:47):
Thank you.
Hello and welcome to It's Personal Stories, a
hospitality podcast.
My name is Lan Elliott on behalfof It's Personal Stories.
And today I am so happy to havewith us Cesar Wurm.
He is a friend and a formercolleague and is just
(00:20):
wonderfully accomplished.
If you are not familiar withCesar, please go to our website
where you can learn more abouthis many accomplishments.
Welcome Cesar.
Cesar Wurm (00:31):
Thank you, Len.
Appreciate the kind introductionand for having me.
Thanks again for having me.
Super excited to be here.
Lan Elliott (00:38):
Oh, I am so excited to talk with you and to learn
more about you because you getto know people when you work
with them, but not reallystories.
But I am curious about yourjourney and what were the
inflection points along the way?
And is there a through line or afactor that you think was really
(00:59):
critical in your success?
Cesar Wurm (01:02):
Yeah.
Yes, I, yes, there are I think afew parts to this question.
I think one, I've been veryfortunate to somehow fall within
this industry that you and Ihave had the pleasure to work in
many years.
It's a very fulfilling industry.
I wasn't necessarily the beststudent coming up, so my options
(01:25):
of schooling have but I got anexperience to work in
hospitality early on in my life,and I enjoyed the interactions,
the atmosphere.
So then at the time in Brazilwas my first year of college
where hospitality was becoming.
An area of focus.
I joined a college there, wentto Switzerland, finished my
(01:46):
schooling, and then got here tothe U S to do really what I
thought would be a one yearinternship.
And 24 years later, I'm stillhere.
And yeah, when I look back on myjourneys, really a few things
that resonate and I see apattern, one is the.
I always been surrounded bygreat people.
(02:06):
I always been super fortunate tohave great people around me, top
alongside and, collaboratingfrom other areas.
So I always felt really luckyfrom that perspective and just
being able to learn from thesepeople, having people that
really gave me opportunities.
(02:27):
Sometimes before I was quiteready for those, but they knew
that, figure out or hadpotential to eventually get
where I needed to.
And I always really, I alwayshad the mentality of, I always
say yes to the opportunity andthen I worry, figure out how I'm
going to, how I'm going to doit, right?
Have some sleepless nightsfiguring out what did I do?
(02:50):
But but then, it always worksout somehow, right?
It's not always easy, but you goalong.
So I think that's really some ofthe patterns that I see looking
back that I reflect on.
I
Lan Elliott (03:03):
love the concept of saying yes, even when you're not
sure that you're ready, but justdiving into it and knowing that
you'll figure it out as you go.
I think a lot of us learn tobuild the airplane while it's
flying and it's such a greatskill.
One of the things we hear from alot of leaders is that curiosity
(03:24):
is a big part of their path andthe need to develop new skills
as they advance in theircareers.
And I'm curious, where do youseek out resources when you're
looking to grow as a
Cesar Wurm (03:39):
leader?
Yeah, that is a great questionbecause it's interesting we have
a daughter and she's 14 and WhenI look back as she grew, and
then as I get older, you startseeing our curiosity tends to
slow down a little bit from whenyou're like a young kid, you're
(03:59):
always asking why, why, why, whyis this, why is that, and then
eventually we start justaccepting some things as they
are.
So I think it's a very validpoint where we have to
intentionally You know, stayfocused and always ensure that
you're hungry to learn more.
And I think, there's a fewthings that I focus on to do
that.
One is listening.
(04:21):
It's like we've been talking,right?
We work together and I think wehave, we're surrounded in this
industry by so many people that,you may work in an everyday
situation or you may see them ina conference, whatever the case
may be.
But if you just really.
Listen to what people say.
It's amazing how much we canlearn right from their journeys,
(04:42):
from their experience.
So that has been something thathas been really helpful.
And then really second isreading for the most part.
I enjoy reading.
I don't read.
I usually tend to read thingsabout leadership, psychology.
These are things that are alittle bit easier for me to
relate than something that's alittle bit more very data is
(05:06):
strictly driven.
So I enjoy that.
So that, always gets curiosityon how to.
How to communicate, how toengage with people.
Then, of course, within ourindustry, there are so many good
publications and blogs.
So I always read those from timeto time.
But yeah, I think it's alwaysimportant to keep that and
always be open minded to otheropinions and differences.
(05:31):
Right?
Because a lot of times we may bedoing this for years.
And sometimes there's a fairlynewcomer.
That joins and they may havefresh, wonderful perspectives
that, we need to be open to it.
Lan Elliott (05:45):
I have been the beneficiary of your listening
skills.
I remember when I had a verydifficult project I was trying
to figure out.
And I remember my first meetingwith you and how you listened so
intently.
And then your answers were sospecific and spot on.
They weren't just, this is whatI normally say, that was really
responding to what the issueswere.
(06:07):
Were that we were discussing, soI think that skill of listening
really carefully can be reallypowerful and I love the reading
the leadership books.
Do you have a favorite one thatyou could share with our
audience?
Cesar Wurm (06:21):
Wow, I have a lot one that stuck to.
My mind is I read many years agois the leadership by John
Maxwell that helped me a lot.
My career as I was evolving andworking with the same people in
different capacities.
So that has helped me a lot froma mindset perspective.
(06:43):
But yeah, there was many aroundthe growth mindset that I really
enjoy that has been superbeneficial.
But yeah, that one jumps at mefor some reason,
Lan Elliott (06:54):
make a note to check that one.
Thank you for sharing that.
So speaking of books, yourecently published a book called
The Powers of Addiction, FindingFreedom and Acceptance and
Recovery, which I find to beextraordinary how you would work
as hard as I know you do andhave the time to write this
(07:15):
book, but tell me why you wrotethe book and I know one of the
themes in the book is thatvulnerability is a superpower.
So I am curious about that aswell.
Cesar Wurm (07:28):
Yeah.
So I wrote the book in kind oftwo main stages.
One was when I first startedgetting sober over 10 years ago.
It was really, I start.
Writing as if it was a book, butin reality, it was a lot of my
own processing of theinformation because how I was
(07:51):
carrying my life was I had torelearn everything I had to
relearn what to do with my time,how to structure my day, you
know what to do for a hobby thatis healthy and so on.
So that was very interestingbecause it's really.
I look back my, entire life andretrospective, internalizing a
lot of that.
(08:12):
So I wrote that.
For several months and then Istopped and then around COVID a
friend of mine he wrote a coupleof books and he made a comment
that he had, he stoppeddrinking.
So then I reached out to him, wereconnected and then I said,
Hey, I wrote these years agoand.
I had not never shared that withanyone except my wife and then I
(08:35):
gave to him and he read and hecalled me right away and said,
man, you gotta do something.
There is a book here.
So go finish it.
So what's the nudge that Ineeded?
And then, Thankfully, duringthat time, I was approaching my
eighth year of sobriety.
So I was in a very differentstage where I felt, I felt ready
(08:56):
to start sharing that because inthe beginning, I was very
ashamed.
I had a lot of guilt, had my ownbias about addiction.
And so it's interesting thateven though you experienced
that, you have all these allthese negative connections about
someone that has addiction.
And, but then I, how I reallyhad the courage, to, to put it
(09:19):
out there was two, two prongedapproach.
One, I was like, Hey, if I wantthings to change, if I want
people to see that differentlyor understand a little bit
better.
It has to start people like methat we went through it, because
if I don't do it, how can Iexpect anything to change?
And then the second one is if Ican help anyone avoid, some of
(09:43):
the things I went through.
Or even understand if they havea loved one that is going
through a similar situation.
Or just educate someone forwhatever reason.
I think that'll be worthwhilebecause I want to look back in
my life when I'm older and say,okay, I, I made it.
Some sort of positivecontribution above and beyond.
(10:04):
So
Lan Elliott (10:04):
absolutely.
And also the idea of helpingother people after your
experience.
Talk more about vulnerabilitybeing a superpower.
Because I post that at a familydinner recently, and I got a lot
of pushback on this idea.
So I'm curious to hear yourthoughts big theme in your book.
(10:28):
So
Cesar Wurm (10:28):
yeah, it is.
And listen, I am biased.
So perhaps, you're taking theperspective off.
or big believers.
So perhaps the truth somewherein the middle.
But the, it's not easy to getthere.
And I think it's not comfortabletoo.
And I think there is always,it's hard to strike a balance
(10:52):
between being too open.
Not being open enough and doingthis in an authentic way.
So I know that everyone isdifferent and that's when I
connect with people.
I share that, listen, justbecause I do it and the way I do
it, it's right for me at thisstage in my life and what I
(11:13):
believe in.
But it's different for everyone.
Some people are in differentstages.
They and that's okay.
And that's okay.
So I think at least what I tellpeople is at least you gotta be
authentic and vulnerable withyourself, right?
So whenever you look yourself inthe mirror.
That's you got to get there andthat's that was not easy for me
(11:35):
because for me to get sober,that was my first step, right?
I had to acknowledge hey, you'renot living the best way you can,
right?
If you keep doing this way, youlose everything.
And, I couldn't look myself inthe eyes and say to myself that
I was proud of who I was.
So that was the beginning of myjourney.
(11:55):
But then.
As I work through my own thingsand start evolving, then I start
opening up little by little.
And then that's when I realizedthat, whoa, this is powerful
because to your point, it's notsuper common, right?
It's not every day that you meetsomeone that they will be
(12:16):
vulnerable or share somethingabove and beyond the usual
business talk or friendlyconversation.
And the response that I got frompeople when I did that is was
eye opening to me because thenonce you start that, I always
got it back and from an expectedpeople, right?
(12:36):
People that are always veryclose with me then, because I
think creates a sense of trust,a sense of comfort when they
feel, okay, if he volunteeredthis information with me, then I
feel comfortable, perhaps share.
Little something or have adeeper connection.
And I think a lot of peoplecrave it, right?
To your point, we were always sobusy on our day to day.
(13:00):
We're always have like meetingsback to back.
You barely have time to doanything.
So I think when you have thosefew moments that you can have
that connection, it can beimpactful.
Lan Elliott (13:10):
I do think there is a way that you can connect with
someone if you're Ready for it.
If they're vulnerable andsharing themselves, you can
really connect in a much deeperway than the superficial way
that we normally move throughthe world when we're busy and
trying to get things done.
And I think in terms of buildingteams and in terms of building.
(13:32):
deeper relationships.
It's a really important piece ofit.
Because I think we spent a lotof time trying to be perfect all
the time.
Speaker 3 (13:39):
Yeah,
Lan Elliott (13:40):
I definitely tried that.
And I think just being a littlemore vulnerable with my
struggles would have gotten mefurther than trying to be
perfect.
So I love the way you've talkedabout that.
Cesar Wurm (13:51):
Yeah.
I thought you were perfect whenI was, I remember first time I
met with you I was prettyintimidated.
I said, man she's a smart woman.
She knows what she's doing.
Lan Elliott (14:01):
I know my corner of the world.
I didn't know anything aboutyour corner of the world.
But I do think one of the thingsyou do really well is develop
connections with people andrelationships with people.
And it's very easy to gravitatetowards you.
You always have a really warmsmile.
And I'm curious if developing anetwork, is that something
(14:26):
that's comfortable for you, howdo you do it in a way that's
authentic to you?
Cesar Wurm (14:33):
Yeah, I never had this asked this way.
It's I developed this from avery good space and a very not
so positive space.
So let me tell you that the goodspace is when I lost my mom when
I was 12.
But up until then, like we weresuper close and she was very,
(14:55):
very warm.
So and she was She got alongwith people very nicely.
So I think I learned a lot andemulate a lot from that.
Just that early exposure in lifeand so on.
And that I was carried througheverything in life, right?
From just connecting withpeople, being able to just
(15:15):
understanding other people'spoint of view.
Like a lot of times it's veryrare that I voice very strong
opinions, and can't.
Get along with someone, right?
Because I always try toempathize and see where people
are coming from, especially now,more so now that I went through
(15:35):
my journey of sobriety becauseyou understanding how sometimes
people are just not in a greatspace, right?
So it's not necessarily areflection of you or anything
like that.
And maybe just a space wherethey're at.
So I think just having,understanding that can help a
lot, but then I also, I'mashamed to say this, but a lot
(15:56):
of these also came with myaddiction because you become
very good about navigatingsituations.
And so you develop a lot ofthese skills as well that at the
time I was using, to survive,but sustain my lifestyle.
When, in reality, wasn't for ahealthy reason or the right
(16:17):
reason but I think that's whereit becomes the superpower,
right?
Because the ability to connect.
When you're doing that for thegood and the right intent, the
right reason, it is great.
And and I'm just really enjoyconnecting with people generally
speaking.
So yeah, it always camenaturally to me.
Lan Elliott (16:38):
It's wonderful to have your mother to remember her
and emulate that.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Yeah.
Lan Elliott (16:43):
That's a wonderful way to think about it.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
Yeah.
Lan Elliott (16:49):
Let's talk a little bit about mentors and champions.
And.
I'm curious if you've had themin your career and how important
do you think they are and howdoes one go about finding a
champion?
Cesar Wurm (17:06):
Yeah I've had and continue to have it.
And it's funny because some ofthem, it became organic.
So I have friends that I haveworked, as far as 20 plus years.
that they were my mentors thenand then they became my mentors
and they still today, eventhough it's not like a
(17:26):
traditional official mentor, butit's just, they become my big
brothers, big sister and justreally helped me continue to
develop even in a kind ofinformal way.
And then from time to time, Ilook for.
People either because of my roleor whatever the goals are in the
(17:48):
next few years, I really try tosurround myself with people that
can provide a differentperspective than I have, because
I, I know the things that I dowell, and I know my strengths,
but I also know where I'm notgood at and the things that I,
it's just not my forte.
I'm not wired that way, or ittakes me a lot of effort to do
(18:08):
something well.
So I like to get it.
people that will bring thatvalue.
But then also that I know theywill give me honest and
unfiltered feedback, but from agood place, right?
Not to hurt me or to put medown.
But so I always like to do that.
And one, it's interestingsomeone that has been like super
(18:30):
important my entire life isreally my wife Laura, because
she knows me so well, not onlyfrom a work standpoint, but also
from a personal that, she callsme on things and she holds me
accountable.
So I love that because, and Ihave to listen to her, right?
If I don't listen, then we havea problem.
Lan Elliott (18:52):
It is great to have those people around you who can
tell you really how it is.
Sometimes it's not always whatyou want to hear, but to
understand that sometimes youneed to hear it, but to find
those people that you feel safeto hear those things from and
that they have your bestinterest.
Cesar Wurm (19:13):
Yeah.
What about you?
Lan Elliott (19:17):
I think I struggled with finding a mentor because I
really tried to find someone wholooked like me and in and hotel
real estate.
There were not many people.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
No,
Lan Elliott (19:29):
I wasted a lot of time when I could have found
mentors that now I think aboutit more like a patchwork quilt
and I have mentors that help mewith different things.
To put together the differentaspects and the different needs
that I have.
And I reach out to differentpeople for different things.
That's probably moreappropriately called a personal
(19:50):
board of directors, but I foundthat worked better for me rather
than waiting for that oneperfect person.
And, but there's all differentways that people can get there,
but so valuable, right?
For seeing your blind spotsbecause you don't know what you
don't know.
And I've done much better to,instead of trying to be perfect
to.
Have asked for help.
Cesar Wurm (20:11):
Yeah, that is great.
Lan Elliott (20:15):
Wanted to move on to advocating for ourselves,
because this can be a challengefor some people to ask for that
thing that they want for whatmight be a raise.
It might be a promotion, and Iknow I've been guilty of that as
well.
I wanted something and then Ididn't tell anybody.
People don't read minds, so I'mcurious.
(20:41):
What advice would you offer topeople who are struggling to
find their voice and what is theright way to ask for something
that you want?
Cesar Wurm (20:50):
Yeah, that is a great one because it is hard.
I, to your point, like you Istruggle with it.
It's, for many people, itdoesn't come naturally because
you think you're bragging aboutyourself or you're being I don't
know, too aggressive is theright word, but you're, you're a
lot of times, I think, at leastto me.
(21:13):
Advocating for yourself almostbecomes a negative connotation
when it shouldn't, to yourpoint, is like I think if you
approach this from a good space,from a logical space and a value
proposition, I think, a lot oftimes people will expect you to
do that, and I think you'll besurprised the support you're
(21:35):
going to get, at least the fewtimes that I did that for
myself.
Again, very positive response,right?
I think you, the only tips Ihave is just make sure that you
have clarity on the ask, right?
And that, that is somewhatwithin reality, within reason
that you're asking for somethingthat, CEO of HG tomorrow, right?
(22:01):
That's not going to happen.
But if you say, Hey, listen, Iwould like to get here.
I think that in.
In a few months, I might beready either for project or the
next step and and this is why soI think at least even if you get
a not now type of response,that's okay, right?
Because it opens up the door forconversations to have a more
(22:25):
solid path.
So both parties have clarity andthen also shows what's the word
initiative.
I chose that you want somethingthat you're invested.
So I think there's a lot ofpositives.
And I think and you wouldwelcome your feedback.
But especially from when Istarted to today, I think
(22:46):
conversations about salarycompensation, just.
Recognition, generally speaking,I think is much more open and
there's an appetite to besomewhat much more imperative
than before.
That was very uneven.
And so I think that a lot oftimes that will be welcomed.
(23:06):
even if you don't get a, animmediate yes, I think there's a
lot of good that comes to it.
I
Lan Elliott (23:11):
absolutely agree.
And I think sometimes it helpspeople understand what you're
aspiring to do, and then theycan be helpful along your path.
If they understand where you'retrying to go, maybe they can
help you get there.
Maybe it's not now, but at leastthey can say, Hey, you want to
go from A to B.
This doesn't Get you immediatelythere, but we can give you these
(23:34):
projects that are going to setyou up better for success.
Speaker 3 (23:37):
And
Lan Elliott (23:38):
so I think sharing what you're looking for is a
little bit vulnerable, but it isalso a way for people to help
you.
Cesar Wurm (23:47):
Yes.
Yes.
And one, one thing that Ilearned the hard way earlier in
my career, and even like today,I really have to.
Purposefully think about it.
I think it's important forpeople to Kind of share, right?
Some of their efforts, some oftheir contributions, not, got to
(24:10):
be in a thoughtful way again,and something that is of value
that provides information toyour partners, people you work
with, but, it's not good whenthere is a void where people
say, Hey what Caesar does,right?
Or what is his value for theorganization?
If there is a void there thatpeople can't articulate, It's
(24:31):
not going to be most likely apositive void because people
usually goes to Hey, I'm doingX, Y and Z.
So if there is anything thatyou, someone can help develop
from that perspective and ensurethat there is a narrative there
that is, not noise, but real.
I think that will be reallybeneficial as well.
Lan Elliott (24:51):
Yeah, that's a really good point that people do
need to know what you do so thatif they're going to speak up on
your behalf, it's really helpfulif they know what you do.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
Yes.
Lan Elliott (25:03):
Let's talk about building high performing teams
because you led a number ofteams I know at IHG and at other
places.
How do you go?
About doing that, because youcome in and in your area in the
commercial area of the business,people are looking for you to
(25:24):
really help make a differencefor the hotel's top line, and
you either inherit a team or youhave to build a team.
How do you approach that?
And, what do you look for whenyou're interviewing for people
when you're building a team?
Cesar Wurm (25:40):
Yes, eat.
So I think whenever coming toeither a new position or a
situation thing is your firstquestion is a little bit off.
Learning and listening, I think,before you can figure out what
the next steps or where to go, Ithink is great to have a good
sense.
Of course, the data, thenumbers, you got to know that
(26:01):
really well.
But then also understand theculture, the each individual
player, what's their strengths,what they bring.
And, is everyone kind of beingoptimized?
And contributing, to the team'sperformance, because I think
once you understand the teamplayers, and I think that's
(26:22):
where a lot of my wings in mycareer came is from really
understanding people andunderstanding what's their
strengths, what drives them andthen just Over, take all the
hurdles so they can focus onjust being their true selves and
then their best selves.
And it's amazing, right?
When people feel that they'resupported, they have the
(26:45):
direction of where we're goingand what they, what part they're
playing on it and gettingconstant reassurance.
And whenever something doesn'tgo wrong you just address
quickly and move on.
That's when I found that things.
But a lot of times, for example,on, on hiring, I always try to
see what we may have the biggestopportunity at and try to find
(27:09):
someone that fits that, but Igot many things wrong, right?
I know a lot of times I thoughtthat, Hey I'm a good interviewer
and, I'm becoming better, butthere's always opportunity.
A lot of times you believe youhired the right person and then
end up not being the case.
And then but I think, justhaving.
(27:31):
Open, honest conversations upfront is very helpful where you
ensure that, hey, if this works,you see the right fit for both
parties.
So I don't know if I reallyanswered your question.
No, I
Lan Elliott (27:44):
think you did.
And I love the idea of reallygetting to know the players so
that you can figure out if youcan figure out what drives
people, you can really figureout how to motivate them and
make sure they're in the rightroles doing the right thing.
And ensuring that everybody'smoving in the same direction on
accomplishing what you need
Cesar Wurm (28:02):
to.
Yeah.
Because I am like, again, onthe, I tend to err on the human
side, perhaps too much, right?
I think you're going to haveleaders that is very system
oriented and process driven.
I'm a little bit more to theother side.
And I think regardless of howtechnology evolves and I think,
(28:22):
listen, that's always going tobe a benefit to that.
But I think the end of the day,what really makes or break or
really take something to thehighest levels will be people.
And having that ability toinfluence the situation,
whatever the case may be.
So that's where I spend a lot ofmy focus and try to.
(28:43):
Deliver.
Lan Elliott (28:44):
Caesar, you know how much I enjoy talking with
you, but the end of ourconversation and I had to final
quick questions for you.
Speaker 3 (28:54):
Okay.
Lan Elliott (28:55):
First is what advice would you give to your
younger self to 22 year oldCaesar starting his work life?
What advice would you give thatperson?
Cesar Wurm (29:08):
Be you.
I struggle a lot in early mycareer trying to think what
other people thought about me,right?
You'll never know what they'rethinking anyway, and it's not
your business.
So, just be yourself.
Try to get more comfortable inyour own skin.
That's when usually you tend tobe at your best.
(29:29):
Yeah, that's what I'll tell my.
Younger self.
Lan Elliott (29:33):
It's great advice.
It's easier said than done.
Yes, it is.
Great advice.
Definitely a journey to do that.
And one last questions.
Caesar, you've offered so muchgreat advice through your
journey and keeping in mind thatthe mission of its personal
stories is around empoweringpersonal success.
(29:54):
Do you have one final nugget ofadvice for our audience who are
looking to advance theircareers?
Cesar Wurm (30:01):
Yes, my advice would be to really embrace the
opportunity to connect withothers.
And what I mean by that to yourquestion about curiosity, take
advantage to connect withpeople, learn about them, learn
from them.
And you'll be surprised not howmuch you grow, how much you can
(30:22):
help others along the way, andthen how much eventually you'll
get in return.
Cause a lot of the opportunitiesI got in my career and in my
life, weren't immediateresponses or from engagement,
but are 10, 20, 30 years ago,and then eventually it comes.
(30:42):
So that is a wonderful journeybecause it.
The surprises never stop, and Ithink people can benefit a lot
from it.
Lan Elliott (30:52):
That was wonderful advice.
I wish I had that advice when Iwas 22 years old, by the way.
Thank you so much.
These are for being on.
I always love how warm andwelcoming you are.
And I definitely see all theparts of really connecting with
people authentically that you doso well.
I could see why that's a bigpart of your success.
(31:15):
So thank you for being on today.
Cesar Wurm (31:17):
Thank you.
And thanks again for everythingthat you're doing for our
industry for this developmentalconversations, because we need
more and more of this right foryounger generations to come.
And so you're doing an amazingjob.
Thank you again
Lan Elliott (31:34):
and for our audience.
If you've enjoyed thisconversation with Caesar, I hope
you'll go to our website.
It's personal stories dot com,where you can find many more in
industry leader interviews.
Thank you, Caesar.
Cesar Wurm (31:47):
Thank you.
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