April 19, 2025 • 34 mins
David shares his journey from working in NYC restaurants to owning a Manhattan jazz bar, and how that experience motivated him to create humane workplaces, which ultimately led to him leading the University of Denver’s hospitality program. David also explains the benefits of making deposits of “idiosyncrasy credits” in helping one distinguish themselves.
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Lan Elliott (00:00):
Hello and welcome to its Personal Stories.
My name is Lan Elliot on behalfof its personal stories and
today I am delighted to have myfriend David Corson here with
us.
David is the director of theFritz Noble School of
Hospitality Management at theUniversity of Denver, and I am
thrilled to have him on.
David, welcome.
David Corsun (00:21):
Thank you so much, Lynn.
It's great to be with you.
Lan Elliott (00:24):
Thank you for making time for this.
We have 30 minutes, which I knowis gonna go really fast, so I'm
gonna jump right in.
And I wanted to start with yourjourney to leadership, because I
know a little bit about it.
I know that you ran a jazz clubin Manhattan at one point.
(00:45):
And there have been multiplesteps along the way to now
leading the hospitality programat the University of Denver.
Could you share some of theinflection points in your career
and if there was a factor orfactors that you think led to
your success?
David Corsun (01:02):
I'm happy to, so I have never done anything but
hospitality.
My next door neighbor as a kidgrowing up, owned a party
rentals company before I turned13.
I was the second guy on thetruck for that summer.
I started working in a cateringhall a year later.
And did so all through highschool.
(01:23):
I was working at a weddingSaturday night and a double on
Sunday every weekend pretty muchthat it was possible to do and
at that a, at a young age, I hadmore money than any of my
friends, anybody I knew becauseI was working so hard and and
loved it.
(01:43):
I ate it up.
And that was what reallypropelled me to pursue
hospitality.
I had a high school counselorwho said it's possible to study
hospitality.
I applied to Cornell the hotelschool and to several state New
(02:03):
York state business schools.
I grew up in New York City.
I was born in Manhattan, raisedin Queens.
I ended up in the hotel schoolat Cornell when I went up there
to interview the.
Faculty member who interviewedme asked me, where will you be
in 10 years?
I was 17 years old.
(02:24):
I had never been asked thatquestion or anyone like it, and
I did not even think, I said, in10 years I will own a
restaurant.
And it was a little less than 10years, it was two weeks before
my 27th.
Birthday that we signed thelease on the space that would
(02:45):
become Zanzibar and Grill, whichis the restaurant jazz club that
I co-owned and operated.
My path to Zanzibar includesseveral really pivotal stops for
me.
I worked the summer after myfirst year at.
Tavern on the green as a backwaiter and it was a team style
(03:09):
service.
And I loved being in the backbecause I loved the kitchen and
it provided me with anopportunity to learn by
watching.
And then the following summer,after sophomore year, I
apprenticed under Wolfgang Puckat Maison in Los Angeles in
pastries.
(03:29):
I spent.
14 weeks there with him whichwas obviously pretty pivotal for
me.
I have a very checkered past asan undergraduate student.
I was way better at work.
And at play than I was atschool.
And it was not because I wasn'tsmart, I think it was because I
(03:50):
thought I was smarter thaneveryone else and could get
through college the way I didhigh school, which is to say,
show up.
Do enough work.
So that showing up worked forme.
And that was not the case incollege in part because I was a
(04:10):
very straight arrow in highschool.
And let us say, I was not myfirst two years of college.
So Cornell actually invited meto take a semester off, and I
spent that semester, thatspring, winter, spring back at
Tavern first as a captain inMetro D and then I was the
(04:31):
assistant manager of the Garden,which is a 200 seat outdoor
dining room in Central Park.
And I was not yet 20 years old.
So I was playing above my age.
And this I think, is areflection of the maturity I
showed at work that I did notshow as a student.
(04:53):
I was really hungry to succeedat work.
I had not been so hungry tolearn in school.
When I graduated I apprenticedat Leser under Alens in New
York, which was a New York Timesthree star restaurant.
Out of three and spent a littleover two months there commuting
(05:17):
in from Queens and, makingmyself crazy because I was doing
that full-time and working apart-time job.
So I said to myself, you have tostop doing this.
You're probably not going to bea chef.
You need to get back into thefront of the house and get a
real job.
I went back to Tavern and I washired as a restaurant director.
(05:39):
I reported to the generalmanager within.
Six or seven months.
I was the senior restaurantdirector because of turnover.
I had other restaurant directorswho were peers, but essentially
reported to me and I had 145front of house employees
reporting to me.
At the age of 22.
(06:00):
At the time Tavern was thehighest grossing restaurant in
the country.
In 1980$3, we did$25 million inrevenue.
On Mother's Day, we did 3,500covers.
And it's over a hundred thousanddollars in revenue.
So I was I learned high volumewhich I had the experience of at
(06:24):
Tavern previously and finedining because some people might
dispute that, but that's whatTavern really was.
And it was an extraordinaryexperience.
I was young and I was.
I was ho, oddly, a combinationof humble and cocky.
(06:46):
I never told anybody how old Iwas with whom I worked because
that would have cut my legs outfrom under me.
And I got a call from aheadhunter about an opportunity
that I should not have takenanother pivotal.
Choice for me.
I took, I interviewed for andtook a job to help create a new
(07:11):
restaurant concept, and it was abig raise for me and an
opportunity to really strut mystuff and create something.
And I thought I was ready forthat.
And that hubris bit me becausethere was a managing partner who
(07:31):
actually owned the real estate.
And there was somebody who was apassive investor who was not
very passive.
I lasted two weeks in that job.
Thankfully it only took a coupleof weeks to find that job, but
the path to that job was aninteresting one as well.
I.
I interviewed with arestaurateur who didn't have
(07:57):
direct in.
He had certainly plenty ofinfluence in day to day.
He owned and operated tworestaurants in Manhattan.
And this person who I'll leavenameless who is interviewing me,
who was the owner, was a goodfriend of the GM I worked with
at Tavern.
(08:17):
And he spent an hour in thatinterview telling me why I was
an imbecile for having given uptavern for the job I took, why I
didn't deserve the opportunityto work for him because I was so
stupid.
And then he offered me the jobfor$5,000 more than I'd been
(08:40):
making at Tavern.
And I said, if this is how youtreat me during the wooing
process, I'm not coming.
You can take your money andshove it up your ass.
That is exactly what I told him.
And I got up and left and somemight say that I showed my
(09:02):
hubris again there, but I thinkthat was my first step.
Toward realizing that creating ahumane workplace was a critical
thing and that I couldn't worksomewhere that was inhumane.
I went on to be AssistantDirector of Operations for
(09:23):
Restaurant Associates at LincolnCenter.
And then I went to work in aMexican restaurant, a Tex-Mex
place.
That still exists on the eastside called El Rio Grande, and
while I was at Rio a formercolleague from Tavern with whom
I'd stayed in touch, got intouch with me and said, do you
(09:44):
wanna do a restaurant?
I was like, yes, absolutely.
We found a location half a blocksouth of where I was working and
nine blocks north of where Ilived.
And we acted as our own generalcontractors, but we didn't get
open in the amount of time wethought we would.
We opened in January of 88 twoand a half years later in order
(10:08):
not to commit homicide.
I sold my shares back to mypartners in exchange for being
absolved of all debt andresponsibility for the business
and left.
And, while I was contemplatingleaving Zanzibar, I had applied
to grad school at NYU.
(10:29):
A friend had gone theirundergrad in their hospitality
program and I was offered ateaching fellowship despite my
checkered undergraduate past.
And I guess my experience helpedme.
And I started, taking classesand teaching at NYU as a
full-time master's studentworking owing them.
(10:51):
I think 15 hours a week where Iwas supposedly a grad assistant.
What caused me to apply tograduate school was the
realization that the mostimportant thing I did in owning
and operating was that Iactually created a humane
workplace where people couldcome to work, bring their whole
selves, feel safe, and earn aliving wage.
(11:14):
And it was more important thananything I did for our guests,
but it made everything we didfor our guests possible.
And I realized that I could havea bigger impact if I could teach
young people to do the samething.
And the epiphany for me was thatI realized that you can't spell
(11:35):
hospitality without hostility.
And in my experience, most ofthe people running restaurants
were unbelievably hostile to thepeople with whom they worked.
Lan Elliott (11:49):
I love that story of your journey and the
vulnerability of sharing thehubris that was in there, but
also the learnings and also thepart of putting yourself in
positions where you might'vebeen in over your head, but you
took the chance anyways and yousaid, I'll figure this out and
(12:09):
I'll make this work.
Let's move on a bit tocontinuous growth because a lot
of leaders have shared this ideathat curiosity is an important
skill.
And being able to develop newskills as you advance in your
career.
'cause you need different thingsat different points in your
(12:29):
career.
Is there a leadership skill youwished you had developed
earlier, and if so, how did youdevelop it?
David Corsun (12:38):
I wish I had more self-awareness earlier.
I was fairly self-aware and Ithink I had a pretty high eq.
But I wa it was accidental, itwasn't purposeful.
I did things along the way thathelped me develop my own
(13:04):
thinking around leadership.
So part of applying to gradschool was that.
Again, some may say this ishubris.
I actually wrote a syllabus fora course I thought should be
taught in hospitality programs.
And it was around, I.
Leadership and it drew on acouple of different things.
(13:26):
It was philosophical.
It drew on lessons about humanbehavior that we, many of us,
anybody who's read Dr.
Seuss as a child, learned as achild, but never applied them in
that way.
Same for Winnie the Pooh.
The class was half aroundleadership philosophy and
(13:49):
developing oneself as the tooland then.
To actually practice thatself-development.
And this is where I think Istarted really tuning in to my
own self and my self-awareness.
And as much as myself-awareness, my ability to
read others' cues was throughwhile I was at Green Street.
(14:15):
I.
Did.
I took, IM improv classes andand comedy writing, and I was
performing improvisationalcomedy and standup in my spare
time, and I learned a lot aboutthe world from doing that.
I.
And a lot about myself, and so Iapplied many improvisational
(14:39):
theater games exercises in myteaching in that of that
material so that students wereforced to put into practice
things that would help them growpersonally.
Lan Elliott (14:53):
That is really incredible.
I would've loved to have takenthat class.
I think I would've had to beready to take that class, to be
honest.
Because self-awareness isn'tsomething you always have when
you're in your early twenties.
Maybe even much later for someof us.
But I do think restaurants are amicrocosm, to really understand
(15:14):
leadership when you're in.
The Wes and learning how to leadyour team through that very
stressful process and then comeback again and do it again and
again.
And yes bravo to you for takingand distilling all of that
experience and to something thatyou can teach.
David Corsun (15:35):
And I think to your point about curiosity, all
of this came from me realizingin running my own business that
the challenges I was facing on aday-to-day basis were more
physical than mental, and thenother than my own sanity and
that I wanted to be pushedintellectually.
(15:57):
And that was also a revelationto me, and I was hungry to
learn.
And that could only happen ingrad school.
Lan Elliott (16:05):
Finally, h Hungry to learn.
David Corsun (16:07):
Yeah.
Lan Elliott (16:08):
You had been learning all the way along in
real life.
Let's switch over to approach tochallenges and how you overcome
obstacles generally, becauseacademia can involve navigating
a lot of challenges, and I knowyou've told me that people from
(16:29):
business are not always supersuccessful in academia,
especially at the beginning.
It requires very different.
Tools and ways of working.
Could you share how you approacha problem?
How do you process it?
What tools do you look for?
What do you do first?
David Corsun (16:48):
The first thing I always have to remind myself is
to be patient.
Patience is not my strong suit,but I actually had an assistant
in my current role a couple ofassistants ago who said to me
one day, you are the mostpatient person I know.
And I burst out laughing and itwas because I was I managed my
(17:13):
emotions so well that Idisplayed patients that I was
like renting'cause it wasn'tmine.
And that was, that's the firstthing, because change happens in
the academy at a glacial pace.
One of the things that Irealized about leadership
(17:34):
earlier and applied in theacademic setting was that the,
other than vision, the mostimportant responsibility of a
leader is to remove the barriersto others' success.
And in an academic environment,maybe even more particularly
than business, although probablynot the barrier to everyone's
(17:56):
success, top number one,students, staff, and faculty is
money.
And so I set about as soon as Iwas made an administrator and
put in this role to createmoney.
That would break down thosebarriers, and that's been really
(18:16):
instrumental.
The New Yorker in me has helpedme un hurt me.
I ask for forgiveness moreoften, way more often than
permission, but I have found atthe University of Denver,
despite its age, it's it's olderthan the state of Colorado.
That, yeah.
(18:36):
Amazing.
1892.
That that if I have been able topay for it, I have been able to
do it.
It's a very entrepreneurialplace and going out and seeking
those resources, passionatelyselling a vision and what we
have to offer has been really akey to success and has removed
(18:59):
not only my own challenges, butthe challenges of those I work
with and teach.
We've, this is the sixth year ina row.
We do not have a junior or asenior with a student loan.
I.
Lan Elliott (19:14):
That's incredible what you have done with the
students and Denver is a privateuniversity.
Most students probably thinkthey can't afford to go there.
But with what you personallyhave brought to the hospitality
program, it is an astoundingaccomplishment, especially for
Thank you, the program and thevalue of the program and how
(19:34):
well your students are prepared.
David Corsun (19:38):
I I will say one last thing about challenges.
That's really.
Really critical is that I havesurrounded myself with a team
and with an advisory board thatconstantly challenges me to be
my best, me to think moreclearly, to generate better
(19:58):
ideas and not alone.
As a team, as a leader, and thatpush has made me so much better
at everything.
Lan Elliott (20:11):
Yeah, having been on the advisory board for a
couple years, I think one of themost important things that you
do is being open to advicebecause it's very easy to bring
in a group of people and getadvice, but continue to what
you've been doing all along.
But to open yourself up totaking that advice and saying,
(20:32):
maybe there's a different way Icould look at this, that.
That does take some trueself-awareness and the ability
to say, Hey, we can all getbetter.
And I see that in you all thetime, and I love that.
David Corsun (20:45):
Maybe I'm over some of the hubris.
Lan Elliott (20:49):
Maybe it's just earned now.
Let's talk a little bit aboutsupport systems, because one of
the things we've talked about isthis concept of having a
personal board of directors thatacts as our personal support
system, and can you share howyou identify who you include in
your.
(21:10):
Personal board of directors andwhat types of things do you rely
on them for?
David Corsun (21:16):
I have surrounded myself, as I said, in terms of
the advisory board with a groupof very senior executives who
challenge me.
That's a really important formof support.
It is the truth and recognizingthat there's not one best way
and that that I'm not this fontof all good ideas.
(21:40):
And it's, that's been anunbelievable I.
Support system to me, I openingmyself up to those challenges is
really important.
I will say that my teamchallenges me as well, and I am
very fortunate to have acolleague, Dr.
(22:01):
Sherry Young, whom I met ingraduate school in the PhD
program at Cornell.
Who's also my wife and she, Iwill tell you more than anyone
else, is my greatest supporterand the person who challenges me
most.
(22:21):
And I owe her so much for thatbecause she leverages the
safety.
She feels knowing that she canchallenge me and and even to
call me on defensiveness when Iexperience it.
And we.
(22:42):
Both of our PhDs are inorganizational behavior, and so
we know the same things or manyof them, and so we can call each
other on our stuff, and Sherryis not shy about doing that.
She doesn't do it.
In public typically she willquestion a decision or an idea
(23:06):
or push for a better one.
But when it comes to personalthings she definitely pushes me
in private and has made me amuch better person.
Lan Elliott (23:19):
It's incredible to have someone in your inner
circle that you trust and thatyou know when they're
challenging you.
It's coming from a place oflove.
Yes.
And that they wanna help you bebetter.
And that defensiveness that sodifficult sometimes to put down.
So
David Corsun (23:38):
I can give you a very quick example that I think
is pivotal and you'veexperienced it as an advisory
board member.
It was Sherry who said to me, I.
The members of your team need anew strategic plan.
We were coming out of Covid.
Covid gave everybody aconvenient reason to be in the
(24:00):
moment and to be reactionary,and I had allowed that.
That, that need to bereactionary to stall me, pushing
us as a group, as a team, towarda new strategic plan.
As soon as she said that, welaunched, we, and we put one
into place with the board'sratification in January, so it
(24:25):
was.
Like an eight month process,obviously to get there.
'cause it takes time.
But I feel so good about wherewe are now and where we're
heading and it is because theteam needed that direction.
Lan Elliott (24:42):
Yeah, I think what you've done is phenomenal in
addition to everything else youhad going on.
Being proactive and setting thelong-term goals for yourself and
your team will really serve youvery well.
Along those lines, sometimesadvocating for yourself can be.
(25:05):
Difficult, and it's hardsometimes to ask for what you
want.
And it's been said that somepeople, because they don't
advocate for themselves, it's achallenge for them to move ahead
to get promotions, to get onthose big projects that will
lead to career advancement.
(25:26):
And I'm curious what advice youhave for people in our audience
who are struggling to find.
Their voice.
What advice do you have for theright way to ask for something
you really want?
David Corsun (25:37):
I think you need to make yourself bulletproof.
That's first before you ask.
I.
I had a colleague at UNLV who ina faculty meeting, didn't speak
up a department meeting.
We were in the same department,and I knew that something that
had been said ran completelycounter to her values and her
(25:59):
beliefs, and she did not speakup.
And I asked her afterward, whynot?
And the response was, when theelephants come out to play, the
mice go hide.
I was like, wow, that ispowerful.
I could never live with myselfunder those circumstances.
(26:21):
Now pair that with the formerpresident of the university,
Carol.
Harder having told me once thatit was a useful strategy to do
high profile service that.
Enabled me to be known beyond mydepartment and my college.
(26:43):
That would make me moreindispensable, and ultimately it
made me bulletproof.
So I created an environment formyself through hard work in
which I was comfortable sayingwhat was on my mind, and doing
(27:03):
so in a way that.
Most of the time did not rufflefeathers.
I will say also though, that awillingness to own one's
mistakes and apologize sincerelyis so important and I have
apologized for with to studentsfor things that I have said that
(27:28):
inadvertently offended them.
And I think example that forthem is so powerful.
And being sincere in an apologyis very disarming, particularly
if the person didn't even letyou know they were upset.
(27:51):
And when you have theself-realization that you made
the mistake and you own it andapologize for it, it's very
disarming.
It's hard to stay angry atsomeone like that.
So all of those things, I thinkI have made it so that I feel
really quite comfortable inadvocating for myself.
Lan Elliott (28:15):
Yes, and I think all the money raising that you
did as well probably helps beingbulletproof.
David Corsun (28:20):
Yes, it does.
It absolutely does.
Lan Elliott (28:27):
David, I know that you and your team do an
incredible job mentoring yourstudents.
They're really the nextgeneration of hoteliers, and you
do it in the most wonderful,gracious way and.
It's so tailored to eachindividual.
I know that you know everysingle one of your students, and
(28:49):
I'm curious what you think isrequired for a young person to
distinguish themselves andadvance in their careers.
David Corsun (28:59):
So a lot of people say yes, and I believe that
saying yes is very important, Ithink saying yes.
And still maintaining enough ofa boundary so that you are
taking care of yourself first,because you can't be your best
(29:20):
you if you're not taking care ofyourself.
And so sometimes you have towork your way to a place where
you get to tailor how thathappens.
Nobody on my team schedules ameeting with me in it before
10:00 AM because I work outevery morning.
(29:41):
So I, and I eat breakfast beforeI work out, so I need an hour
between those two events.
I'm in the office, I leave thehouse by about 10, but, and I
can make it to a 10 o'clockmeeting, but I really don't love
it.
But I think I've earned that.
If I.
We're coming out into the worldof work and not wanting to work
(30:05):
before 10:00 AM that would bereally quite limiting and I
would not have earned that.
So I think knowing the cultureof the place you're in and
saying yes every time youpossibly can so that you are.
(30:26):
Doing exactly what the Chironsays there, distinguishing
yourself.
And at the same time, bydistinguishing yourself, making
yourself somewhat bulletproofyou're buying what are called or
putting in the bank, what arecalled idiosyncrasy credits.
So when you do make a mistake,you have made deposits that you
(30:48):
can then withdraw from.
And I've always tried to put waymore in that bank than I've
withdrawn.
Lan Elliott (30:59):
I love that idea of building credibility and it
being a bank, right?
You wanna have more depositsthan withdrawals.
Yeah.
And then you get a little leewaywhen you need to do something.
Wonderful.
One of our favorite questions onthe podcast is what advice would
(31:19):
you give to your younger self,and you've had such a journey.
I usually say 22 years old, butI'm gonna let you pick any point
in time.
What advice would you offer toyour younger self?
David Corsun (31:32):
I think the advice to my younger self is my college
age self.
And I very firmly believe in nothaving regrets about things I've
done.
I love where I am.
I love the life.
I live the people by whom I'msurrounded.
I got here because of everythingthat I have done to this moment.
(31:56):
So I have no regrets aboutthings I've done, but knowing
what I know now.
I would have told my youngerself, having the opportunity to
experiment and play a littleless dangerously, a little less
(32:19):
frequently and a little morehumbly early on.
Lan Elliott (32:25):
Beautiful.
Love that.
David, we're coming to the endof our time and you've shared a
lot of really fabulous advicewith our audience.
Thank you.
Keeping in mind that our missionis around empowering personal
success.
Is there one last nugget ofadvice that you would offer for.
(32:46):
Our audience.
David Corsun (32:47):
I, I hate giving advice even though I probably,
in telling these stories, Iprobably have because I don't
want responsibility for otherpeople's choices.
But the one piece of advice Igive perspective students when
they visit with us or I get tomeet them, and I think this
applies in.
Other settings in organizationalsettings that are not colleges
(33:12):
and universities.
Learning involves discomfort.
Growth involves discomfort, andI.
I think what's really importantin order to be able to manage
well, the discomfort, oneexperiences from learning and
growth is to find the placeswhere one feels comfortable.
(33:40):
The place, the organizationalculture the space.
If you don't do well with grayskies, go somewhere where the
sun shines a lot.
Know yourself well enough toseek out that comfort personally
so that you can best grow andchange and learn.
Lan Elliott (34:05):
Amazing.
So beautifully said.
Thank you so much, David.
I so appreciate you being on andsharing your extensive wisdom.
I learned from you all the time.
Thank you.
And so I am so appreciative tobe able to share your wisdom
with our audience.
And for our audience, if you'veenjoyed this conversation with
(34:26):
David, I hope you'll go to ourwebsite, it's personal
stories.com, where you can findmany more interviews with
hospitality industry leaders.
Thank you.
Hello and welcome to its Personal Stories.
My name is Lan Elliot on behalfof its personal stories and
today I am delighted to have myfriend David Corson here with
us.
David is the director of theFritz Noble School of
Hospitality Management at theUniversity of Denver, and I am
thrilled to have him on.
David, welcome.
David Corsun (00:21):
Thank you so much, Lynn.
It's great to be with you.
Lan Elliott (00:24):
Thank you for making time for this.
We have 30 minutes, which I knowis gonna go really fast, so I'm
gonna jump right in.
And I wanted to start with yourjourney to leadership, because I
know a little bit about it.
I know that you ran a jazz clubin Manhattan at one point.
(00:45):
And there have been multiplesteps along the way to now
leading the hospitality programat the University of Denver.
Could you share some of theinflection points in your career
and if there was a factor orfactors that you think led to
your success?
David Corsun (01:02):
I'm happy to, so I have never done anything but
hospitality.
My next door neighbor as a kidgrowing up, owned a party
rentals company before I turned13.
I was the second guy on thetruck for that summer.
I started working in a cateringhall a year later.
And did so all through highschool.
(01:23):
I was working at a weddingSaturday night and a double on
Sunday every weekend pretty muchthat it was possible to do and
at that a, at a young age, I hadmore money than any of my
friends, anybody I knew becauseI was working so hard and and
loved it.
(01:43):
I ate it up.
And that was what reallypropelled me to pursue
hospitality.
I had a high school counselorwho said it's possible to study
hospitality.
I applied to Cornell the hotelschool and to several state New
(02:03):
York state business schools.
I grew up in New York City.
I was born in Manhattan, raisedin Queens.
I ended up in the hotel schoolat Cornell when I went up there
to interview the.
Faculty member who interviewedme asked me, where will you be
in 10 years?
I was 17 years old.
(02:24):
I had never been asked thatquestion or anyone like it, and
I did not even think, I said, in10 years I will own a
restaurant.
And it was a little less than 10years, it was two weeks before
my 27th.
Birthday that we signed thelease on the space that would
(02:45):
become Zanzibar and Grill, whichis the restaurant jazz club that
I co-owned and operated.
My path to Zanzibar includesseveral really pivotal stops for
me.
I worked the summer after myfirst year at.
Tavern on the green as a backwaiter and it was a team style
(03:09):
service.
And I loved being in the backbecause I loved the kitchen and
it provided me with anopportunity to learn by
watching.
And then the following summer,after sophomore year, I
apprenticed under Wolfgang Puckat Maison in Los Angeles in
pastries.
(03:29):
I spent.
14 weeks there with him whichwas obviously pretty pivotal for
me.
I have a very checkered past asan undergraduate student.
I was way better at work.
And at play than I was atschool.
And it was not because I wasn'tsmart, I think it was because I
(03:50):
thought I was smarter thaneveryone else and could get
through college the way I didhigh school, which is to say,
show up.
Do enough work.
So that showing up worked forme.
And that was not the case incollege in part because I was a
(04:10):
very straight arrow in highschool.
And let us say, I was not myfirst two years of college.
So Cornell actually invited meto take a semester off, and I
spent that semester, thatspring, winter, spring back at
Tavern first as a captain inMetro D and then I was the
(04:31):
assistant manager of the Garden,which is a 200 seat outdoor
dining room in Central Park.
And I was not yet 20 years old.
So I was playing above my age.
And this I think, is areflection of the maturity I
showed at work that I did notshow as a student.
(04:53):
I was really hungry to succeedat work.
I had not been so hungry tolearn in school.
When I graduated I apprenticedat Leser under Alens in New
York, which was a New York Timesthree star restaurant.
Out of three and spent a littleover two months there commuting
(05:17):
in from Queens and, makingmyself crazy because I was doing
that full-time and working apart-time job.
So I said to myself, you have tostop doing this.
You're probably not going to bea chef.
You need to get back into thefront of the house and get a
real job.
I went back to Tavern and I washired as a restaurant director.
(05:39):
I reported to the generalmanager within.
Six or seven months.
I was the senior restaurantdirector because of turnover.
I had other restaurant directorswho were peers, but essentially
reported to me and I had 145front of house employees
reporting to me.
At the age of 22.
(06:00):
At the time Tavern was thehighest grossing restaurant in
the country.
In 1980$3, we did$25 million inrevenue.
On Mother's Day, we did 3,500covers.
And it's over a hundred thousanddollars in revenue.
So I was I learned high volumewhich I had the experience of at
(06:24):
Tavern previously and finedining because some people might
dispute that, but that's whatTavern really was.
And it was an extraordinaryexperience.
I was young and I was.
I was ho, oddly, a combinationof humble and cocky.
(06:46):
I never told anybody how old Iwas with whom I worked because
that would have cut my legs outfrom under me.
And I got a call from aheadhunter about an opportunity
that I should not have takenanother pivotal.
Choice for me.
I took, I interviewed for andtook a job to help create a new
(07:11):
restaurant concept, and it was abig raise for me and an
opportunity to really strut mystuff and create something.
And I thought I was ready forthat.
And that hubris bit me becausethere was a managing partner who
(07:31):
actually owned the real estate.
And there was somebody who was apassive investor who was not
very passive.
I lasted two weeks in that job.
Thankfully it only took a coupleof weeks to find that job, but
the path to that job was aninteresting one as well.
I.
I interviewed with arestaurateur who didn't have
(07:57):
direct in.
He had certainly plenty ofinfluence in day to day.
He owned and operated tworestaurants in Manhattan.
And this person who I'll leavenameless who is interviewing me,
who was the owner, was a goodfriend of the GM I worked with
at Tavern.
(08:17):
And he spent an hour in thatinterview telling me why I was
an imbecile for having given uptavern for the job I took, why I
didn't deserve the opportunityto work for him because I was so
stupid.
And then he offered me the jobfor$5,000 more than I'd been
(08:40):
making at Tavern.
And I said, if this is how youtreat me during the wooing
process, I'm not coming.
You can take your money andshove it up your ass.
That is exactly what I told him.
And I got up and left and somemight say that I showed my
(09:02):
hubris again there, but I thinkthat was my first step.
Toward realizing that creating ahumane workplace was a critical
thing and that I couldn't worksomewhere that was inhumane.
I went on to be AssistantDirector of Operations for
(09:23):
Restaurant Associates at LincolnCenter.
And then I went to work in aMexican restaurant, a Tex-Mex
place.
That still exists on the eastside called El Rio Grande, and
while I was at Rio a formercolleague from Tavern with whom
I'd stayed in touch, got intouch with me and said, do you
(09:44):
wanna do a restaurant?
I was like, yes, absolutely.
We found a location half a blocksouth of where I was working and
nine blocks north of where Ilived.
And we acted as our own generalcontractors, but we didn't get
open in the amount of time wethought we would.
We opened in January of 88 twoand a half years later in order
(10:08):
not to commit homicide.
I sold my shares back to mypartners in exchange for being
absolved of all debt andresponsibility for the business
and left.
And, while I was contemplatingleaving Zanzibar, I had applied
to grad school at NYU.
(10:29):
A friend had gone theirundergrad in their hospitality
program and I was offered ateaching fellowship despite my
checkered undergraduate past.
And I guess my experience helpedme.
And I started, taking classesand teaching at NYU as a
full-time master's studentworking owing them.
(10:51):
I think 15 hours a week where Iwas supposedly a grad assistant.
What caused me to apply tograduate school was the
realization that the mostimportant thing I did in owning
and operating was that Iactually created a humane
workplace where people couldcome to work, bring their whole
selves, feel safe, and earn aliving wage.
(11:14):
And it was more important thananything I did for our guests,
but it made everything we didfor our guests possible.
And I realized that I could havea bigger impact if I could teach
young people to do the samething.
And the epiphany for me was thatI realized that you can't spell
(11:35):
hospitality without hostility.
And in my experience, most ofthe people running restaurants
were unbelievably hostile to thepeople with whom they worked.
Lan Elliott (11:49):
I love that story of your journey and the
vulnerability of sharing thehubris that was in there, but
also the learnings and also thepart of putting yourself in
positions where you might'vebeen in over your head, but you
took the chance anyways and yousaid, I'll figure this out and
(12:09):
I'll make this work.
Let's move on a bit tocontinuous growth because a lot
of leaders have shared this ideathat curiosity is an important
skill.
And being able to develop newskills as you advance in your
career.
'cause you need different thingsat different points in your
(12:29):
career.
Is there a leadership skill youwished you had developed
earlier, and if so, how did youdevelop it?
David Corsun (12:38):
I wish I had more self-awareness earlier.
I was fairly self-aware and Ithink I had a pretty high eq.
But I wa it was accidental, itwasn't purposeful.
I did things along the way thathelped me develop my own
(13:04):
thinking around leadership.
So part of applying to gradschool was that.
Again, some may say this ishubris.
I actually wrote a syllabus fora course I thought should be
taught in hospitality programs.
And it was around, I.
Leadership and it drew on acouple of different things.
(13:26):
It was philosophical.
It drew on lessons about humanbehavior that we, many of us,
anybody who's read Dr.
Seuss as a child, learned as achild, but never applied them in
that way.
Same for Winnie the Pooh.
The class was half aroundleadership philosophy and
(13:49):
developing oneself as the tooland then.
To actually practice thatself-development.
And this is where I think Istarted really tuning in to my
own self and my self-awareness.
And as much as myself-awareness, my ability to
read others' cues was throughwhile I was at Green Street.
(14:15):
I.
Did.
I took, IM improv classes andand comedy writing, and I was
performing improvisationalcomedy and standup in my spare
time, and I learned a lot aboutthe world from doing that.
I.
And a lot about myself, and so Iapplied many improvisational
(14:39):
theater games exercises in myteaching in that of that
material so that students wereforced to put into practice
things that would help them growpersonally.
Lan Elliott (14:53):
That is really incredible.
I would've loved to have takenthat class.
I think I would've had to beready to take that class, to be
honest.
Because self-awareness isn'tsomething you always have when
you're in your early twenties.
Maybe even much later for someof us.
But I do think restaurants are amicrocosm, to really understand
(15:14):
leadership when you're in.
The Wes and learning how to leadyour team through that very
stressful process and then comeback again and do it again and
again.
And yes bravo to you for takingand distilling all of that
experience and to something thatyou can teach.
David Corsun (15:35):
And I think to your point about curiosity, all
of this came from me realizingin running my own business that
the challenges I was facing on aday-to-day basis were more
physical than mental, and thenother than my own sanity and
that I wanted to be pushedintellectually.
(15:57):
And that was also a revelationto me, and I was hungry to
learn.
And that could only happen ingrad school.
Lan Elliott (16:05):
Finally, h Hungry to learn.
David Corsun (16:07):
Yeah.
Lan Elliott (16:08):
You had been learning all the way along in
real life.
Let's switch over to approach tochallenges and how you overcome
obstacles generally, becauseacademia can involve navigating
a lot of challenges, and I knowyou've told me that people from
(16:29):
business are not always supersuccessful in academia,
especially at the beginning.
It requires very different.
Tools and ways of working.
Could you share how you approacha problem?
How do you process it?
What tools do you look for?
What do you do first?
David Corsun (16:48):
The first thing I always have to remind myself is
to be patient.
Patience is not my strong suit,but I actually had an assistant
in my current role a couple ofassistants ago who said to me
one day, you are the mostpatient person I know.
And I burst out laughing and itwas because I was I managed my
(17:13):
emotions so well that Idisplayed patients that I was
like renting'cause it wasn'tmine.
And that was, that's the firstthing, because change happens in
the academy at a glacial pace.
One of the things that Irealized about leadership
(17:34):
earlier and applied in theacademic setting was that the,
other than vision, the mostimportant responsibility of a
leader is to remove the barriersto others' success.
And in an academic environment,maybe even more particularly
than business, although probablynot the barrier to everyone's
(17:56):
success, top number one,students, staff, and faculty is
money.
And so I set about as soon as Iwas made an administrator and
put in this role to createmoney.
That would break down thosebarriers, and that's been really
(18:16):
instrumental.
The New Yorker in me has helpedme un hurt me.
I ask for forgiveness moreoften, way more often than
permission, but I have found atthe University of Denver,
despite its age, it's it's olderthan the state of Colorado.
That, yeah.
(18:36):
Amazing.
1892.
That that if I have been able topay for it, I have been able to
do it.
It's a very entrepreneurialplace and going out and seeking
those resources, passionatelyselling a vision and what we
have to offer has been really akey to success and has removed
(18:59):
not only my own challenges, butthe challenges of those I work
with and teach.
We've, this is the sixth year ina row.
We do not have a junior or asenior with a student loan.
I.
Lan Elliott (19:14):
That's incredible what you have done with the
students and Denver is a privateuniversity.
Most students probably thinkthey can't afford to go there.
But with what you personallyhave brought to the hospitality
program, it is an astoundingaccomplishment, especially for
Thank you, the program and thevalue of the program and how
(19:34):
well your students are prepared.
David Corsun (19:38):
I I will say one last thing about challenges.
That's really.
Really critical is that I havesurrounded myself with a team
and with an advisory board thatconstantly challenges me to be
my best, me to think moreclearly, to generate better
(19:58):
ideas and not alone.
As a team, as a leader, and thatpush has made me so much better
at everything.
Lan Elliott (20:11):
Yeah, having been on the advisory board for a
couple years, I think one of themost important things that you
do is being open to advicebecause it's very easy to bring
in a group of people and getadvice, but continue to what
you've been doing all along.
But to open yourself up totaking that advice and saying,
(20:32):
maybe there's a different way Icould look at this, that.
That does take some trueself-awareness and the ability
to say, Hey, we can all getbetter.
And I see that in you all thetime, and I love that.
David Corsun (20:45):
Maybe I'm over some of the hubris.
Lan Elliott (20:49):
Maybe it's just earned now.
Let's talk a little bit aboutsupport systems, because one of
the things we've talked about isthis concept of having a
personal board of directors thatacts as our personal support
system, and can you share howyou identify who you include in
your.
(21:10):
Personal board of directors andwhat types of things do you rely
on them for?
David Corsun (21:16):
I have surrounded myself, as I said, in terms of
the advisory board with a groupof very senior executives who
challenge me.
That's a really important formof support.
It is the truth and recognizingthat there's not one best way
and that that I'm not this fontof all good ideas.
(21:40):
And it's, that's been anunbelievable I.
Support system to me, I openingmyself up to those challenges is
really important.
I will say that my teamchallenges me as well, and I am
very fortunate to have acolleague, Dr.
(22:01):
Sherry Young, whom I met ingraduate school in the PhD
program at Cornell.
Who's also my wife and she, Iwill tell you more than anyone
else, is my greatest supporterand the person who challenges me
most.
(22:21):
And I owe her so much for thatbecause she leverages the
safety.
She feels knowing that she canchallenge me and and even to
call me on defensiveness when Iexperience it.
And we.
(22:42):
Both of our PhDs are inorganizational behavior, and so
we know the same things or manyof them, and so we can call each
other on our stuff, and Sherryis not shy about doing that.
She doesn't do it.
In public typically she willquestion a decision or an idea
(23:06):
or push for a better one.
But when it comes to personalthings she definitely pushes me
in private and has made me amuch better person.
Lan Elliott (23:19):
It's incredible to have someone in your inner
circle that you trust and thatyou know when they're
challenging you.
It's coming from a place oflove.
Yes.
And that they wanna help you bebetter.
And that defensiveness that sodifficult sometimes to put down.
So
David Corsun (23:38):
I can give you a very quick example that I think
is pivotal and you'veexperienced it as an advisory
board member.
It was Sherry who said to me, I.
The members of your team need anew strategic plan.
We were coming out of Covid.
Covid gave everybody aconvenient reason to be in the
(24:00):
moment and to be reactionary,and I had allowed that.
That, that need to bereactionary to stall me, pushing
us as a group, as a team, towarda new strategic plan.
As soon as she said that, welaunched, we, and we put one
into place with the board'sratification in January, so it
(24:25):
was.
Like an eight month process,obviously to get there.
'cause it takes time.
But I feel so good about wherewe are now and where we're
heading and it is because theteam needed that direction.
Lan Elliott (24:42):
Yeah, I think what you've done is phenomenal in
addition to everything else youhad going on.
Being proactive and setting thelong-term goals for yourself and
your team will really serve youvery well.
Along those lines, sometimesadvocating for yourself can be.
(25:05):
Difficult, and it's hardsometimes to ask for what you
want.
And it's been said that somepeople, because they don't
advocate for themselves, it's achallenge for them to move ahead
to get promotions, to get onthose big projects that will
lead to career advancement.
(25:26):
And I'm curious what advice youhave for people in our audience
who are struggling to find.
Their voice.
What advice do you have for theright way to ask for something
you really want?
David Corsun (25:37):
I think you need to make yourself bulletproof.
That's first before you ask.
I.
I had a colleague at UNLV who ina faculty meeting, didn't speak
up a department meeting.
We were in the same department,and I knew that something that
had been said ran completelycounter to her values and her
(25:59):
beliefs, and she did not speakup.
And I asked her afterward, whynot?
And the response was, when theelephants come out to play, the
mice go hide.
I was like, wow, that ispowerful.
I could never live with myselfunder those circumstances.
(26:21):
Now pair that with the formerpresident of the university,
Carol.
Harder having told me once thatit was a useful strategy to do
high profile service that.
Enabled me to be known beyond mydepartment and my college.
(26:43):
That would make me moreindispensable, and ultimately it
made me bulletproof.
So I created an environment formyself through hard work in
which I was comfortable sayingwhat was on my mind, and doing
(27:03):
so in a way that.
Most of the time did not rufflefeathers.
I will say also though, that awillingness to own one's
mistakes and apologize sincerelyis so important and I have
apologized for with to studentsfor things that I have said that
(27:28):
inadvertently offended them.
And I think example that forthem is so powerful.
And being sincere in an apologyis very disarming, particularly
if the person didn't even letyou know they were upset.
(27:51):
And when you have theself-realization that you made
the mistake and you own it andapologize for it, it's very
disarming.
It's hard to stay angry atsomeone like that.
So all of those things, I thinkI have made it so that I feel
really quite comfortable inadvocating for myself.
Lan Elliott (28:15):
Yes, and I think all the money raising that you
did as well probably helps beingbulletproof.
David Corsun (28:20):
Yes, it does.
It absolutely does.
Lan Elliott (28:27):
David, I know that you and your team do an
incredible job mentoring yourstudents.
They're really the nextgeneration of hoteliers, and you
do it in the most wonderful,gracious way and.
It's so tailored to eachindividual.
I know that you know everysingle one of your students, and
(28:49):
I'm curious what you think isrequired for a young person to
distinguish themselves andadvance in their careers.
David Corsun (28:59):
So a lot of people say yes, and I believe that
saying yes is very important, Ithink saying yes.
And still maintaining enough ofa boundary so that you are
taking care of yourself first,because you can't be your best
(29:20):
you if you're not taking care ofyourself.
And so sometimes you have towork your way to a place where
you get to tailor how thathappens.
Nobody on my team schedules ameeting with me in it before
10:00 AM because I work outevery morning.
(29:41):
So I, and I eat breakfast beforeI work out, so I need an hour
between those two events.
I'm in the office, I leave thehouse by about 10, but, and I
can make it to a 10 o'clockmeeting, but I really don't love
it.
But I think I've earned that.
If I.
We're coming out into the worldof work and not wanting to work
(30:05):
before 10:00 AM that would bereally quite limiting and I
would not have earned that.
So I think knowing the cultureof the place you're in and
saying yes every time youpossibly can so that you are.
(30:26):
Doing exactly what the Chironsays there, distinguishing
yourself.
And at the same time, bydistinguishing yourself, making
yourself somewhat bulletproofyou're buying what are called or
putting in the bank, what arecalled idiosyncrasy credits.
So when you do make a mistake,you have made deposits that you
(30:48):
can then withdraw from.
And I've always tried to put waymore in that bank than I've
withdrawn.
Lan Elliott (30:59):
I love that idea of building credibility and it
being a bank, right?
You wanna have more depositsthan withdrawals.
Yeah.
And then you get a little leewaywhen you need to do something.
Wonderful.
One of our favorite questions onthe podcast is what advice would
(31:19):
you give to your younger self,and you've had such a journey.
I usually say 22 years old, butI'm gonna let you pick any point
in time.
What advice would you offer toyour younger self?
David Corsun (31:32):
I think the advice to my younger self is my college
age self.
And I very firmly believe in nothaving regrets about things I've
done.
I love where I am.
I love the life.
I live the people by whom I'msurrounded.
I got here because of everythingthat I have done to this moment.
(31:56):
So I have no regrets aboutthings I've done, but knowing
what I know now.
I would have told my youngerself, having the opportunity to
experiment and play a littleless dangerously, a little less
(32:19):
frequently and a little morehumbly early on.
Lan Elliott (32:25):
Beautiful.
Love that.
David, we're coming to the endof our time and you've shared a
lot of really fabulous advicewith our audience.
Thank you.
Keeping in mind that our missionis around empowering personal
success.
Is there one last nugget ofadvice that you would offer for.
(32:46):
Our audience.
David Corsun (32:47):
I, I hate giving advice even though I probably,
in telling these stories, Iprobably have because I don't
want responsibility for otherpeople's choices.
But the one piece of advice Igive perspective students when
they visit with us or I get tomeet them, and I think this
applies in.
Other settings in organizationalsettings that are not colleges
(33:12):
and universities.
Learning involves discomfort.
Growth involves discomfort, andI.
I think what's really importantin order to be able to manage
well, the discomfort, oneexperiences from learning and
growth is to find the placeswhere one feels comfortable.
(33:40):
The place, the organizationalculture the space.
If you don't do well with grayskies, go somewhere where the
sun shines a lot.
Know yourself well enough toseek out that comfort personally
so that you can best grow andchange and learn.
Lan Elliott (34:05):
Amazing.
So beautifully said.
Thank you so much, David.
I so appreciate you being on andsharing your extensive wisdom.
I learned from you all the time.
Thank you.
And so I am so appreciative tobe able to share your wisdom
with our audience.
And for our audience, if you'veenjoyed this conversation with
(34:26):
David, I hope you'll go to ourwebsite, it's personal
stories.com, where you can findmany more interviews with
hospitality industry leaders.
Thank you.
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