February 27, 2025 • 37 mins
In this engaging podcast episode, Mike Gamble, Chairman and CEO of SearchWide Global, delivers actionable insights for both candidates and companies. He outlines practical strategies for mapping career paths and acing interviews, while also sharing proven methods for retaining top talent and driving innovation in the competitive talent landscape. Mike underscores the importance of aligning talent marketing, employer branding, and cultivating an authentic culture to build workplaces that truly resonate with professionals. Join me for an enlightening conversation with Mike and discover valuable takeaways that can transform your approach to career growth and talent management
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dorothy Dowling (00:01):
Greetings.
I am Dorothy Dowling and welcometo It's Personal Stories, a
hospitality podcast thathighlights the inspiring
journeys of leaders in thehospitality industry.
We are a non profit organizationdedicated to personal
empowerment.
I am delighted to welcome MikeGamble, chairman and CEO of
Search White Global.
Mike, it is such an honor tohave you with us today.
Mike Gamble (00:22):
Dorothy, great to be with you.
Really looking forward to it.
Wonderful.
Dorothy Dowling (00:27):
Let's get to it, Mike.
I think the first question Iwould like to hear from you is
that you've been in executivesearch for quite a while now,
but you started your career inthe hotel industry as a sales
and marketing leader, and youspent time in the CBP space.
I'm wondering if you can share abit about your journey and some
of those career inflectionpoints with our audience.
Mike Gamble (00:45):
Yeah, I would love to.
Dorothy, I'm going to tell you aquick story.
Back to college days.
I promise it won't be too long,but it's interesting and a
little funny.
I was at the university ofWisconsin, green Bay, studying
business and my dentist saidwhat do you want to study?
And I said business.
And he said but what do you likein business?
And I said, I love.
Hotels and resorts because I'veworked at one in the summers for
(01:07):
the last four or five years.
He said you should go to theUniversity of Wisconsin Stout.
They have a hotel restaurantdegree and program there.
This, by the way, Dorothy, thisis in the early to mid 80s.
I got into the dentist chair,called my father and said, I'm
going to transfer University ofWisconsin Stout.
They have a degree in hotelrestaurant.
My father said, are you sureit's a four year degree?
(01:29):
And those words are ring so truetoday that he was skeptical that
I could really earn a degree andI did.
I went to Stout and those werein the days when University of
Wisconsin Stout was graduatingabout a thousand students in
hotel restaurant, and I was justI was lucky Dorothy to go there
to earn my degree and then to behired by Marriott right out of
(01:49):
Stout and even luckier.
To get put into the salestraining program with Marriott.
So nine wonderful years movedall over the country, loved
every single minute of it whenthe Philadelphia convention and
visitors bureau opportunity cameup, I think some were surprised
and some thought maybe I was alittle crazy to leave the
company.
(02:09):
And I was running global salesfor Chicago West at that time
for Marriott.
But I saw this opportunity inPhiladelphia as one that.
It's not that I really had adesire to work in a CVB.
It just looked like a job thatseemed interesting to me.
So I embarked on that as seniorvice president of sales and
marketing for the Philly CVB.
And I'll tell you, Dorothy, thatfor me was a very pivotal moment
(02:33):
in my career.
It, it broadened my perspectiveof the industry that what I
learned about.
The depth and dearth of ourindustry was just fascinating in
the world of course, conventiontrade show working with the
convention center in Philly, butmore importantly, politics and
just all those aspects.
So I wouldn't trade that foranything in the world, loved
(02:56):
that job.
And those were in the days wherePhilly was really embarking on a
rebirth of the community.
So it was fun to be a part ofthat.
And then.
Love the job.
Wasn't looking for my next gig.
But here here came anopportunity to start search by
global.
And that was 25 years ago nowthat we really started this
company in September of 1999.
So we're 25 and a half years ofexecutive search and travel,
(03:21):
tourism, hospitality events.
And it's been a good run.
So that's my story.
Dorothy Dowling (03:28):
I think you shared some very interesting
pieces.
My part of was just the formaleducation and then how you
really embrace the opportunityat Marriott, because they are
definitely one of the leaders inthe business that provide
amazing professional developmentfor their teammates.
So I, I do think the disciplinethat you approach your career.
And then I also share, just thatcourage to, to make the leap and
(03:51):
to.
Maybe a nontraditional careerchoice that broadened your
understanding of the industryand just the complexity of our
industry.
And as you said, working in aCBB or an association, there's
just so many different voicesthat 1 has to learn to navigate
support and consider as you'remaking your decision.
Those are all really good thingsfor people to think about in
(04:12):
terms of really having anintentional career map.
So thank you for sharing thatwith us.
Mike Gamble (04:18):
Yeah, I
Dorothy Dowling (04:19):
wonder if we can move a little bit into, just
a lot of the expertise that youbring from the executive search
space.
And, part of is really just thetrends that are really shaping
our industry in terms of talenttoday, Mike, and I'm just
wondering if there's anythingthat you can share that you see
as being very notable in termsof recruiting and talent
sourcing.
Mike Gamble (04:40):
Yeah, boy, there are quite a few things.
Of course, I'd have to, I'd beremiss not to start with
technology and AI.
And when I started the business25 years ago, gosh, we didn't
have LinkedIn.
And so when you thought abouthow to find talent, where to
find talent was very differentthan it is today.
And when you think now of thedigital platforms.
That are available.
It's really almost overwhelming,but I think that again, we're at
(05:02):
an inflection point as itrelates to sourcing talent.
And I think is going to reallychange the game there and
already has.
But the other thing I'd say,though, is maybe a simpler thing
is that.
The good, and I think the smartcompanies have that have
effective recruiting andretention have really realized
that they've got to have anamazing culture and a place
(05:24):
where employees feel thatthey're contributing to
something bigger than the jobthat they're in.
And when we see our, see clientsof ours who.
Who can really connect thosedots for the team members all
the way from the C suite, allthe way to the front line,
Dorothy, it just seems that theynot only can recruit the best
talent, but they can retain thebest talent because they've
(05:45):
really figured out that kind ofthat magic connection, if you
will between what makes theculture go.
But more importantly, whatreally gets the associate
motivated.
The other thing, though, I dohope is that we'll be able to
continue to evolve in moreskills based hiring.
Because as Dorothy, in ourindustry it's pretty
traditional.
(06:05):
We'd love to hire people who'vebeen in the chair before.
And I get that.
But I think, again, with AI,what AI will allow us to do is
to really look at people fromother industries and analyze the
transferable skills.
Where might they have experiencethat's very transferable to our
industry and then help usanalyze where are the downfalls
(06:26):
and where might they need moretraining to scale up to a role
with us.
So that's what I'm hopingcontinues to evolve as it
relates to technology and AI.
Dorothy Dowling (06:35):
I do think that whole element of purpose and I
know all talent today, they wantto be connected to organizations
where they think they can make adifference.
I think that's a reallyimportant message to our
audience.
And I also really love yourmessage, Mike, in terms of us
being more open to think outsidethe box in terms of how we fill
roles and then how we reallybuild out those development
(06:57):
plans.
And I do think AI is going toempower us to be far more
efficient in terms ofidentifying the opportunities
for development as well as.
Actually providing a lot of thatcoaching through some of the
tools that are being developedby some of the big providers in
the space.
I'm wondering, we can talk alittle bit about return to
office or RTO, because thatcertainly is a hot button in the
(07:19):
industry.
Maybe more broadly, it's notjust our industry, but it seems
that it's continuing to evolve alot of businesses over the last
several months have taken a muchmore, I don't know, stricter
approach.
I guess it'd be the words I'duse and they're using, they're
shifting from 3 to 4 summer backto 5 days a week.
I'm just wondering what yourpoint of view is on return to
(07:41):
office trends and how you see itevolving in the next few years.
Mike Gamble (07:45):
Yeah, great question.
Big question, Dorothy.
That's.
But you're right.
It's in all industries, butspecifically ours now as well.
I don't know if you saw theMcKinsey study this week.
I'll have to be sure to send itto you.
In fact, I think it just cameout yesterday.
With the headlines that RTO willnot make employees more
(08:05):
productive, and that's a bigstatement, and it's a good read,
and I think that my, my sense onthis, and I know, where I stand
here, I think that, I think ifyou have an opportunity to have
a hybrid workforce, and again,in our industry, that's
different, we have a lot ofpeople that have to work with
us.
In the store, if you will in thehotel in the convention center
whatever the case might be.
(08:26):
And so you have to balance that.
You certainly have those who canwork remotely and do not need to
be in an office.
So that's an important balance.
But I think that I feel like ifyou can be hybrid, I think we'll
hybrid will be a part of ourworkforce for a very long time.
But I also think it'll swingback and forth.
With the unemployment rate andthe and it'll just be a pendulum
(08:46):
and it's really supply anddemand, right?
It's when the reality is, as theunemployment rate goes up,
companies will realize that theyneed to be more flexible, just
as we were, Dorothy, duringcoming out of COVID.
That is really, we were allremote, of course, but you can
see how slow that was to comeback to RTO.
It's essentially taken about 4or 5 years now.
(09:08):
And I just continue to cautionpeople To say that, to recruit
the best talent, retain the besttalent, boy it's more about the
productivity.
Then it is where they're doingthe work.
And that's why I think this newMcKinsey study is interesting.
And I look at amazing leaders inother industries like Jamie
diamond.
He's a brilliant man.
I do not agree with anythingthat he says about this topic.
(09:29):
And when he talks about that,people aren't productive.
Those who don't work in anoffice aren't productive and
they don't hustle.
That's just not true.
And yeah, I think that Dorothyto me speaks a little bit to the
gap.
Between the leaders that aretypically boomers, or in some
case, even above and the nextfuture generations and how they
want to work.
So I just I feel prettypassionately as you know about
(09:52):
this topic.
And I just think it's 1 that wehave to be cautious and not make
things mandatory and reallyfocus on productivity.
More than where they're doingthe work is really where I fall
on that.
Dorothy Dowling (10:06):
I think having that metric focused approach
that you're identifying Mike isreally something that leaders
have to embrace because I dothink there's certain roles as
you've identified that wherethere are no options that people
have to be on property or inoffice for but roles that afford
people some of that flexibility.
I do think as long as they'redriving home, the business
(10:26):
outcomes.
Then that should be the metricsthat people drive some of that
decisioning around.
Yeah, so I'm wondering if wecould explore a little bit more
on culture, benefits,compensation and really get your
point of view in terms of howexpectations may be shifting or
have shifted from both thecandidate and an employer
(10:48):
perspective.
Mike Gamble (10:51):
Yeah, Dorothy, boy, the one thing and Gallup really
emphasizes this, there's always,there's been much more focused
on culture but the well being ofthe employees, the associates in
the meaningful work.
Are two things that I think arepretty new for all of us in the
last few years, the nextgeneration is currently and will
(11:11):
continue to work differentlythan you and I did I we both
came up, we went where thecompany told us to go and we
work 70 hours a week and wewore, I wore that as a badge of
honor.
That amount of time was justwhat I did.
We moved and I had my life fitin with that.
And I think today that thegenerations want to, younger
generation want to live theirbest life and have a job that
(11:32):
fits in with that.
And that's a different mindsetand mentality.
And some good companies arereally understanding that.
And that doesn't, again, doesnot mean that you give up
productivity in order to havethat.
It's just a different way towork than what we're all
perhaps.
And yeah, I think that the otherpiece that we hear a lot,
(11:55):
Dorothy from candidates is thatculture and a great boss and
being are more important thanmoney from many, especially in
the Z, the Gen Z and some of theyounger generations, not all,
I'm not trying to stereotypegenerations, but again that's
different than I think mygeneration the baby boomer
(12:17):
generation where I was verydriven.
Yeah.
By what's my next job?
What kind of a position willthat be?
And how much will I make?
That's terrific.
I'm ready to go up the corporateladder and show me the way.
That's not going to be the case.
So I think that those are thethings that we see are most
competitive today, Dorothy, andthat it's less about people.
(12:38):
They want good benefits.
They want good pay.
They want all those things.
Of course.
But honestly, they're notranking them as high as some of
the other things that Imentioned, and that is, again,
culture, but also the personyou're going to work for.
Dorothy Dowling (12:49):
And I think that's really important again,
messages like for our audience,because I know for me.
I was really disturbed when Isaw the Gallup engagement
scores, particularly for the U.
S.
And seeing that we're at ourlowest engagement scores with
our teammates than we have everbeen in our history.
So I think that mindset ofculture being a good leader to
(13:13):
your teammates and then alsoreally recognizing that This
work life harmony for a lot ofthese individuals is really
important and they will holdtheir leaders accountable to
that.
So great messaging.
So I'd like to move on because Iknow our audience is always
interested about their careerand how to manage, their career.
(13:35):
I'm wondering if you could offerany thoughts in terms of what
makes a candidate stand out intoday's competitive marketplace.
Mike Gamble (13:43):
I, I've noticed In the last 10 years, I guess I'd
say, Dorothy, the emphasis on,on, on soft skills, on human
skills, on EQ, of course coupledall of that coupled with
authenticity.
I think that, it's easier tofind those who have the
technical ability, understandthe role and can do the job, but
(14:04):
what differentiates peopleoftentimes is the, are their
soft skills, their human skills,again, that EQ.
And the way in which they areable to collaborate, deliver
messages.
Things like that, I think theother piece that I would say is
it's amazing, Dorothy, how manydon't think to do homework about
the employer that they're goingto potentially interview with.
(14:27):
And so we spend a lot of timehelping our candidates to
understand how important that isbecause.
You have to be, you have to doyour research and be well
researched before you go intoany interview.
And we see the candidates thatdo that stand out.
Those who do not are eliminatedimmediately.
And it's not even close becausethere's nothing more flattering.
(14:49):
Then, and you know the story,you've hired hundreds, maybe
thousands in your career.
Nothing more flattering thanthose candidates who've really
done their homework.
And you feel, wow, you've reallyresearched the company, me, our
team, like that feels good.
And there's nothing moreinsulting than the opposite.
When all of a sudden you'resitting there in 20 minutes
realizing, did you even look atour website?
Have you even seen our digitalplatform?
(15:11):
And so Those pieces, as simpleas that is, that differentiates
the candidates today.
And then lastly, Dorothea, it'sthe follow up.
There just isn't any follow upafter the interviews.
And I mean at the C level, okay,all the way through.
But at the most senior of execswill often say, don't forget
the.
To send a note, and ahandwritten one is really
(15:33):
special, but at least an email.
And so again, I know I have fourkids, Dorothy, they're 25 to 32,
and I would tell them when theywere out, looking for their
first jobs, I said, you candifferentiate yourself.
And you're competitive set bydoing a couple of these things.
Cause they think that you'llimmediately separate yourself,
with just these, again, thesehuman skills.
Dorothy Dowling (15:55):
I think that's really great advice.
And I think, salespeople oftenare very good.
Doing all of that kind ofresearch, because that's how
they build a piece of business.
And so I think if people takethat mindset and get out there
and do a lot of the digitalresearch, but quite frankly,
Mike, I think often, they haveto get out and do some of the
physical research and if there'ssites involved and other kinds
(16:16):
of things to get out there andtry and experience whatever.
The product or services so thatthey can have a point of view
from a customer point of viewand hopefully add some value as
they interview through thatprocess.
I'd like to turn the table nowand also ask about hiring
leaders, because as we talkedabout employees wanting to hire
their boss, what can a hiringleader learn from you in terms
(16:40):
of how they can positionthemselves to the best
candidates so that they choosethe job and decide to come on
board.
Mike Gamble (16:48):
Yeah, boy, again, a great question.
There's a real message that issent based on your interview
process, Dorothy, and how eitherefficient or clunky that is.
And so we often talk a lot aboutthat.
If when you're interviewing andeven onboarding, if there's even
after you hire someone thatfirst.
A few interviews, and then thosefirst couple of months in the
(17:09):
job, it really should be thebest of each other.
And if it's not, then you know,that's not going to be a good
long term relationship, right?
And so I think that, I thinkagain, it's helping our clients
to understand that, hey,authenticity rules let's show
the real culture.
It's easy for candidates toreally identify if the culture
is real or not.
(17:29):
I'll tell you the companiesthat, I think the companies that
concentrate on their brandpromise.
For their current and futureemployees are the ones that are
really winning.
And you know who I think isdoing that well, Dorothy, is
Hilton.
I think they've been doing thatwell for quite a few years for
such a large hotel company.
But the way in which they talkto their current employees and
(17:50):
their future employees andtheir, and that brand promise
about being a part of the Hiltonfamily.
And Marriott does a good jobtoo, don't get me wrong, I'm not
trying to say others don't.
But they really stand outbecause I think it's very
intentional.
And so I think it gives them anadvantage.
To when they're recruiting andhopefully even retaining because
again, it's just it's too easyto though you can't fake it
(18:12):
during the interview.
The employers just can't becauseit's too easy with glass door,
too many ways to find out ifit's real or not.
So you better have an authenticand real culture to start with
or you're gonna, you're gonnalose the talent war for the most
part.
And we really do believe that.
Our clients who've got thatbuttoned up and figured out they
get they are able to recruit andretain the best talent.
(18:32):
That's, there's really no debatethere.
So those are a couple of thingsthat I would highlight.
Dorothy Dowling (18:38):
Okay, that's great advice.
I'm, I'd like to expand on thata little bit because she
referenced retention, which, forme is critically important
because as we think about salesand marketing roles, holding on
to the customers you have isalways job one.
And I would say the same appliesto talent.
So are there other.
Ideas that you could expand uponthat great companies are really
(18:59):
deploying to hold on to theiremployees and keep them engaged.
Mike Gamble (19:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
This one's not very not verycreative and probably doesn't
seem that out of the box, butit's this mutual trust and
respect.
Dorothy and that gets back alittle bit to the return to
office and remote work versusnot, and are we really trust
that they're working and if, arewe measuring them properly so
that we can trust them?
And I think that let's notmicromanage, let's not watch the
(19:28):
clock and see when they'reworking.
Let's measure the right things.
I think it's really important.
One thing that jumps out that Iwould not have said 10 years ago
is sabbaticals.
Dorothy it's amazing.
We see that in the destinationsector and the hotel sector
venues with more and moresabbaticals being offered.
And I'll tell you the, and I'mat the C suite and all honestly,
(19:49):
all the way through theorganization, but starting in
the C suite.
And I think that is reallyrefreshing because that's hard
to do when you think about itfor a small company or a large
one, when I think about it, I'vegot a little over 20 employees.
Gosh, how would I let someone doa 3 month or a 6 month
sabbatical, but the companieswho have figured it out?
I think that's a bigdifferentiator.
(20:10):
And lastly.
It's what, again, you and I havetalked about a lot, this
investing in the skilldevelopment of your people and
in their mental health and intheir wellbeing and when they
really feel like you care aboutthem and improving their skills
and improving their mentalhealth.
(20:31):
Wow, I think that is a recipe tokeep someone long term within
your organization because again,it creates an authentic and
meaningful relationship, betweenthe employee and the employer.
So those are a couple of thingsthat Dorothy that stick out to
me.
Dorothy Dowling (20:46):
I think the big message that I really like that
you offered Mike is this elementof trust because relationships
are based on trust.
And I do think.
If I think about some of theengagement scores that Gallup
released this year I think thatis one of the underlying
problems is that employees don'tfeel value to respected and
(21:06):
trusted.
And that's an area that I thinkwe all have to do some
thoughtful, unpacking to figureout how do we do that better.
Mike Gamble (21:14):
Yeah, I think you're right.
Dorothy Dowling (21:16):
So I'd like to move on to some of the big roles
because there's so many peoplethat, have big aspirations that
they'd like to land in the Csuite someday.
So I'd like to give you thissentence and say, if you had to
fill in the blank, the strongestC suite candidates possess these
attributes, what would you say?
Mike Gamble (21:37):
Boy, this list could get, can get long pretty
quickly, Dorothy, but I have afew that I keep at the top of my
list.
And I don't mean to be redundantbut I am this high EQ is a big
one in this authenticity isanother, but then I think right
after that about humility.
And I and I see some and I'msorry, Dorothy.
(22:02):
I thought we lost each other.
I see that sometimes people justlose that and lose the fact
that, we're all humans and wecan I think we can lead with
humility and I think that'simportant.
And listen, of course integrityand ethics.
That's high on the list.
But this collaborative piece,Dorothy of at all levels, we
have found that in the C suitethat it's Even CEOs and C level
(22:25):
executives have really learnedover the years to be a great
leader.
You've got to be a collaborativeteam leader and team builder.
And so that's high on my list.
Empathy.
Again, I can give you a list of20 but those are the ones that
it, you know from me that areright off the, a good strategic
vision.
Passion but again, I lead withthe EQ, the authenticity and the
(22:46):
humility are the ones that wehear the most and we see the
most and that our clients.
Dorothy Dowling (22:51):
Mike and truly, I do think that element of
humility and people not thinkingthat the smartest person in the
room and they have all theanswers is a very important
skill set for people torecognize because there's so
many great thoughts that comefrom teammates if we give them
the space and the comfort tooffer their ideas.
(23:12):
So I'm also wondering if youcould share some of your
favorite interview questionswhen you're assessing those
leadership capabilities and Csuite executives.
Mike Gamble (23:21):
I think if anyone's watching that's worked with us
especially for C levelinterviews there, when you get
to that final one or two, andthey're either presenting or,
you're on that second or thirdinterview a favorite of ours,
and which turns out to be afavorite of our clients is to
really, to really understand thevision of a leader is to say,
Hey let's think five years fromnow, and what is the
(23:44):
organization and your team?
Look like under your leadershipand how did you get there?
And I think that the way inwhich leaders can work through a
question like that, I think isinteresting.
And it it allows our clients toreally unpack the way that they
think about a big question likethat.
Another one is About status quo,give us an example of when
(24:07):
you've had to challenge thestatus quo.
And how did you approach thesituation?
What was the outcome?
That's another one, Dorothy.
And a third one, because this weknow this happens in all
industries and all businesses,we all have dilemmas, but when
there's an ethical dilemma, giveus an example of when you've had
a situation that was an ethicaldilemma and in your role and as
(24:32):
a leader and for your team andfor your company, how'd you
resolve it?
And what you learned from it.
And so those are three favoritesthat, but I honestly think they
become our candidates favoritestoo, because they've likely have
multiple examples of all those.
And yeah, those are a couplethat I'd like to share.
Dorothy Dowling (24:50):
I think those are great questions to really,
they're very thought provokingand hopefully the audience
that's listening and watchingcan think through some of those
things because I do think youhave to.
Really spend some time investingin how you would articulate
those perspectives on thosequestions.
Yeah I know you referenced someof the mistakes in terms of
(25:11):
follow up after interviews, etcetera.
But I'm wondering if there'sanything else you might offer to
the audience in terms of commonmistakes that you see executives
making interviews and whatadvice you would give them to
stand out.
Mike Gamble (25:25):
Yeah.
It's first, first we always haveto remember there's a lot of
adrenal adrenaline.
You get it's an intenseinterview.
If it's with a committee or ifit's what, whatever it might be,
you've, you're usually prettycharged up and ready to go.
One thing that we say right awayis just always remember that
you're not running the meetingAnd what that means is it's just
(25:46):
a simple thing that we say it isto, and that is to say.
They're running the meeting.
And so you're listening to thequestions and answering the
questions.
And so that's a big one for us.
The other one is again, back tomy do your homework, because I
think that all through aninterview, if you've done your
homework, you then have to bereally specific about how you
(26:07):
sprinkle that knowledge inthroughout the interview.
And I think that it doesn't haveto be obvious and it's not all
at once.
And it's just, you sprinkle itin an hour and a half or two
hours and Boy, that will letthat will leave the interviewer
or the committee with a verygood taste in their mouth.
The big one, Dorothy, I have tosay though is try to answer the
question that was asked.
(26:28):
Not two or three additionalquestions you think you should
answer with the originalquestion that was asked.
And that's hard.
That again is hard.
When there's a lot of adrenalineand it's that one question.
And then all of a sudden, fiveminutes later, we're suddenly
talking, we're answering thesame thing, but we're talking
about something completelydifferent.
It's that ability to say, gosh,they'll get there.
(26:49):
The interviewer will get there.
Just remember, they're runningthe meeting.
And so just try to follow theircadence.
I think that's a big piece forus.
And then lastly and this is abig one too, is you've got to
have some questions ready again,nothing worse.
And you, Dorothy, you and I haveboth been there.
I wish I was just there recentlywith my own company and I said
(27:10):
what questions do you have forme?
And.
Really none.
Gosh, don't tell me you don'thave any questions.
There have to be some questions,right?
And that's important.
And I think that I think thetype of questions at the sea
level.
I think the type of questionsyou ask is equally as important.
And so I think you have to havea couple of very tactical
questions.
And I think you have to have acouple of very big 30, 000 foot
(27:32):
visionary questions so that youdon't run the risk of leaving
the room and then saying, Ohgosh, they're only tactical or
gosh they're too big of athinker.
I think mixing both together aresuper important.
So those are a few things.
I know that probably soundedlike a really long list,
Dorothy, but those are a coupleof things that come to mind.
for C suite interviews.
Dorothy Dowling (27:52):
I think those are really impactful pieces of
wisdom that you've shared, Mike.
And to me, it really just speaksto the nature of being prepared
and being very thoughtful.
But I do think I think thatadvice of understanding who's
running the meeting is reallyimportant, especially for senior
leaders, because they're used tobeing in that other chair.
(28:14):
So thank you for sharing that.
That's a great piece of advice.
I'm wondering if we can move onin terms of thinking about
career growth for a lot of thelisteners that are paying that
are partaking in this interview.
And 1 of the questions that weoften ask are.
Our advisors that joined thispodcast is about professional
(28:36):
networking and how important itis in career advancement and
what advice you would give toindividuals as they start out
their careers in terms of that,is it important and how do they
go about building it?
Mike Gamble (28:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's an important question.
I, even in our small littlecompany, Dorothy, and we're
involved in a lot of industryassociations, greater industry
associations, and one of myrules is I, that's fine.
We're, I think we're a part ofprobably 35 plus organizations
and the rule is simple.
You can, you're not just goingto be a member.
We're going to get involved andwe're gonna get involved at the
(29:11):
committee level, eventually,perhaps at the board level.
That's really important.
It's important for your personalgrowth.
It's important for our companyand our brand, and I think all
those things are true.
Dorothy, I've worked for threecompanies in my career.
And one of course is my own, buttwo of those opportunities came
to me through my involvement andengagement in industry
(29:32):
associations and networking andlearning and growing.
But then people getting to knowme and who I am as a person and
how I work in a volunteercapacity.
And I think that I really, I'llnever forget that.
And I look at our younger groupsnow, and I think they want that.
And I think many say, Oh, theydon't want to do that.
(29:53):
That's not true.
I think they'd love to do it andthey want to be a part of an HSM
AI or an MPI.
And boy, we'd encourage, weencourage everyone to do that.
I think it's an important partof your career growth.
And for, and I think it's veryimportant part.
For your company engagement aswell.
You're, they're representingyour company, but you're also
representing yourself and you'reupskilling and learning a lot of
(30:14):
new things from a personalperspective, as much as
professional.
So that's a big one for me isget involved and and really do
it in a meaningful way.
And I think that makes a bigdifference in the career
journey.
Look you and I really got toknow each other.
We've known of each other,really got to know each other
through HSMAI.
And it's just, it's the naturalway, isn't it?
(30:36):
And I don't want anyone to everforget that.
What an important part that isin your career journey, too.
Dorothy Dowling (30:41):
Yeah, no, I totally concur with everything
you said, Mike.
And I do think for people thatare earlier in their career,
getting involved, it justaffords them not only a front
row seat from an observationallearning opportunity, but.
Just building some of that peermentorship and growth.
It's, it really is substantive.
(31:01):
I'm wondering if we could talk alittle bit about an ideal
relationship between a candidateand an executive curator,
because I'm not sure everyonereally understands that.
Mike Gamble (31:12):
Yeah, no that's fair.
That's Dorothy.
That was the biggest eye openerfor me 25 years ago when I
started is I suddenly realizedpeople thought I was Jerry
Maguire and that I was going torepresent them as a person,
right?
And I said, no, I'm not JerryMaguire.
I work for our clients.
And I think we have nearly 50opportunities we're working on
today with 50 great clients.
And I often say we're like arealtor, we're working for the
(31:33):
seller in this case, it's forour clients.
But the reality is we caredeeply.
About the candidates and we wantto nurture their journey as well
and have and help them to showup the best that they can, if
we're fortunate enough to putthem in front of one of our
clients.
And so that's a delicatebalance, but the reality is we
were paid by our clients and wework on their behalf, but we're
there to help make a deal.
(31:54):
We want to find the best talentwe can for them.
And what I would say is it's theideal relationship is all about
trust and honesty.
And when we work hard to helpthem to understand so that the
candidates understand what ourrole is, but that we're in the
long term relationship businesswith them, this isn't a
transaction business.
And so sometimes you may not getthat job, or you might, this
(32:16):
might not be the one for you.
We're going to maintain thatrelationship and find the right
fit.
And I think that piece of trustand honesty is critically
important.
Honesty is critically importantbecause.
Boy, neither one of us want tobe surprised during that journey
and we certainly don't forsomething you maybe didn't share
with us that you should havethat'll come up during an
interview.
(32:36):
And so that's, those are thethings that we really focused on
the focus on the most to havegood relationship.
Worked in our behalf.
I'll tell you, the opposite ofit is, Dorothy, I, we just the
honesty piece is a big one.
And when you've been in businesson 25 years, imagine the history
of resumes that we have.
So there are times where I'llsay, gosh, you sent us this
(32:57):
resume 18 years ago, where isthat job in that job?
Let's just have an honestconversation about that because,
this is the story of yourprofessional life.
Let's not take things offbecause it's convenient or it
was a short stint at that hotelor whatever the case might be.
Let's include it and just tellthe story.
It's a part of your story.
It's okay.
So that's the way we approachit.
Dorothy Dowling (33:19):
I do appreciate you being so honest, Mike, in
terms of really clearlyestablishing that you're there
to support the client.
And obviously the candidate ispart of that process and you do
have long term investments inthose relationships, but it is
understanding that is therelationship that candidate
should expect when they'redealing with a recruiter.
(33:40):
We're coming up near the end ofour interview here, Mike, and.
I'm just wondering if you couldoffer your best piece of advice
for individuals in thehospitality industry who want to
build a career map and plantheir career journey with
intention.
Mike Gamble (33:57):
Yeah, I think the big one, Dorothy, is to find a
good mentor or two, and I thinkthat I don't want to say that we
have not done that as well inthe last five or 10 years, but I
don't feel like we have, I justseemed easier to me maybe 15
years ago.
I I just, I don't know, but itstarts.
(34:18):
there with me.
And I think being then reallyintentional with your career
dreams and aspirations.
And I think mentor, a mentor canhelp you with that.
And that can come in many forms,it can be a previous boss,
coworker, whatever the casemight be.
And I, so I think that's a bigpiece of it.
And we talked about it gettinginvolved getting involved in
industry organizations is.
(34:39):
Is a big one.
But then lastly, and this onesounds so simple, Dorothy, but
we have to remember this simpleadage that, don't ever burn a
bridge.
And what's happened in the lastfew years with this ghosting by
the way, we see it on the clientside and the candidate side.
And honestly, it's appalling tome.
I'm thinking, what are wethinking here?
(35:00):
And for an executive searchfirm, we have a long memory and
a great database that's not theway we treat one another.
We just don't do that.
We don't not show up forinterviews or not show up for a
job and just think that's goingto drift away.
That's just not the way that wewant to act or treat one
another.
And that's a piece that we takethe time to talk to people about
(35:21):
that.
If they, if that happens tohappen to us, we help them to
understand how that can impact.
Your career long term, that'sthe same as burning a bridge is
what we now today call ghosting,right?
It's just it's something thatpeople just won't forget and but
again, I would say that it goesfor that goes for clients as
well I think we have to be a lotbetter about the way in which we
(35:43):
communicate with one anotherWhat important things like this
potential jobs.
So those are a few takeaways,Dorothy that I'd have today.
And yeah, I'd be interested tohear if you've got any to add to
that.
Dorothy Dowling (35:56):
No, I think you've just offered so many
brilliant ideas for bothcandidates and employers, Mike,
but I've always been of thatsame mindset about never burning
a bridge because the world issmall.
Our industry is small.
And I've always said to people,be careful of that informal
reference check, because whenyou do burn a bridge, you never
ever know who knows some of theindividuals that you might be
(36:20):
trying to get a role with andthem just being silent or
sometimes not being positiveabout your candidacy may be the
end of that opportunity for you.
So I agree with everything thatyou presented, Mike, and I'm
just so grateful for yourhonesty and candor.
I do think there's so manyindividuals that are.
Working on their career journeysand definitely want an
(36:42):
intentional career map to attainthe kind of dreams that they
have.
So I'm grateful that you tookthe time with us today.
I'm thankful of all of the greatwisdom that you shared with our
audience, and it really has beena privilege to speak with you.
So thank you.
Mike Gamble (36:57):
I feel the same way.
And thanks for inviting me.
And it's always great talking toyou, Dorothy.
I enjoyed it very much.
Dorothy Dowling (37:03):
Likewise, so if I may, I'd also like to thank
our audience and just offer ifyou've enjoyed this interview
today, I hope you'll visit us onour website.
It's personal stories dot com,where you'll see webcasts and
podcasts from other industryleaders that I know will empower
your knowledge and feel yourspirit.
So we hope to see you there.
Greetings.
I am Dorothy Dowling and welcometo It's Personal Stories, a
hospitality podcast thathighlights the inspiring
journeys of leaders in thehospitality industry.
We are a non profit organizationdedicated to personal
empowerment.
I am delighted to welcome MikeGamble, chairman and CEO of
Search White Global.
Mike, it is such an honor tohave you with us today.
Mike Gamble (00:22):
Dorothy, great to be with you.
Really looking forward to it.
Wonderful.
Dorothy Dowling (00:27):
Let's get to it, Mike.
I think the first question Iwould like to hear from you is
that you've been in executivesearch for quite a while now,
but you started your career inthe hotel industry as a sales
and marketing leader, and youspent time in the CBP space.
I'm wondering if you can share abit about your journey and some
of those career inflectionpoints with our audience.
Mike Gamble (00:45):
Yeah, I would love to.
Dorothy, I'm going to tell you aquick story.
Back to college days.
I promise it won't be too long,but it's interesting and a
little funny.
I was at the university ofWisconsin, green Bay, studying
business and my dentist saidwhat do you want to study?
And I said business.
And he said but what do you likein business?
And I said, I love.
Hotels and resorts because I'veworked at one in the summers for
(01:07):
the last four or five years.
He said you should go to theUniversity of Wisconsin Stout.
They have a hotel restaurantdegree and program there.
This, by the way, Dorothy, thisis in the early to mid 80s.
I got into the dentist chair,called my father and said, I'm
going to transfer University ofWisconsin Stout.
They have a degree in hotelrestaurant.
My father said, are you sureit's a four year degree?
(01:29):
And those words are ring so truetoday that he was skeptical that
I could really earn a degree andI did.
I went to Stout and those werein the days when University of
Wisconsin Stout was graduatingabout a thousand students in
hotel restaurant, and I was justI was lucky Dorothy to go there
to earn my degree and then to behired by Marriott right out of
(01:49):
Stout and even luckier.
To get put into the salestraining program with Marriott.
So nine wonderful years movedall over the country, loved
every single minute of it whenthe Philadelphia convention and
visitors bureau opportunity cameup, I think some were surprised
and some thought maybe I was alittle crazy to leave the
company.
(02:09):
And I was running global salesfor Chicago West at that time
for Marriott.
But I saw this opportunity inPhiladelphia as one that.
It's not that I really had adesire to work in a CVB.
It just looked like a job thatseemed interesting to me.
So I embarked on that as seniorvice president of sales and
marketing for the Philly CVB.
And I'll tell you, Dorothy, thatfor me was a very pivotal moment
(02:33):
in my career.
It, it broadened my perspectiveof the industry that what I
learned about.
The depth and dearth of ourindustry was just fascinating in
the world of course, conventiontrade show working with the
convention center in Philly, butmore importantly, politics and
just all those aspects.
So I wouldn't trade that foranything in the world, loved
(02:56):
that job.
And those were in the days wherePhilly was really embarking on a
rebirth of the community.
So it was fun to be a part ofthat.
And then.
Love the job.
Wasn't looking for my next gig.
But here here came anopportunity to start search by
global.
And that was 25 years ago nowthat we really started this
company in September of 1999.
So we're 25 and a half years ofexecutive search and travel,
(03:21):
tourism, hospitality events.
And it's been a good run.
So that's my story.
Dorothy Dowling (03:28):
I think you shared some very interesting
pieces.
My part of was just the formaleducation and then how you
really embrace the opportunityat Marriott, because they are
definitely one of the leaders inthe business that provide
amazing professional developmentfor their teammates.
So I, I do think the disciplinethat you approach your career.
And then I also share, just thatcourage to, to make the leap and
(03:51):
to.
Maybe a nontraditional careerchoice that broadened your
understanding of the industryand just the complexity of our
industry.
And as you said, working in aCBB or an association, there's
just so many different voicesthat 1 has to learn to navigate
support and consider as you'remaking your decision.
Those are all really good thingsfor people to think about in
(04:12):
terms of really having anintentional career map.
So thank you for sharing thatwith us.
Mike Gamble (04:18):
Yeah, I
Dorothy Dowling (04:19):
wonder if we can move a little bit into, just
a lot of the expertise that youbring from the executive search
space.
And, part of is really just thetrends that are really shaping
our industry in terms of talenttoday, Mike, and I'm just
wondering if there's anythingthat you can share that you see
as being very notable in termsof recruiting and talent
sourcing.
Mike Gamble (04:40):
Yeah, boy, there are quite a few things.
Of course, I'd have to, I'd beremiss not to start with
technology and AI.
And when I started the business25 years ago, gosh, we didn't
have LinkedIn.
And so when you thought abouthow to find talent, where to
find talent was very differentthan it is today.
And when you think now of thedigital platforms.
That are available.
It's really almost overwhelming,but I think that again, we're at
(05:02):
an inflection point as itrelates to sourcing talent.
And I think is going to reallychange the game there and
already has.
But the other thing I'd say,though, is maybe a simpler thing
is that.
The good, and I think the smartcompanies have that have
effective recruiting andretention have really realized
that they've got to have anamazing culture and a place
(05:24):
where employees feel thatthey're contributing to
something bigger than the jobthat they're in.
And when we see our, see clientsof ours who.
Who can really connect thosedots for the team members all
the way from the C suite, allthe way to the front line,
Dorothy, it just seems that theynot only can recruit the best
talent, but they can retain thebest talent because they've
(05:45):
really figured out that kind ofthat magic connection, if you
will between what makes theculture go.
But more importantly, whatreally gets the associate
motivated.
The other thing, though, I dohope is that we'll be able to
continue to evolve in moreskills based hiring.
Because as Dorothy, in ourindustry it's pretty
traditional.
(06:05):
We'd love to hire people who'vebeen in the chair before.
And I get that.
But I think, again, with AI,what AI will allow us to do is
to really look at people fromother industries and analyze the
transferable skills.
Where might they have experiencethat's very transferable to our
industry and then help usanalyze where are the downfalls
(06:26):
and where might they need moretraining to scale up to a role
with us.
So that's what I'm hopingcontinues to evolve as it
relates to technology and AI.
Dorothy Dowling (06:35):
I do think that whole element of purpose and I
know all talent today, they wantto be connected to organizations
where they think they can make adifference.
I think that's a reallyimportant message to our
audience.
And I also really love yourmessage, Mike, in terms of us
being more open to think outsidethe box in terms of how we fill
roles and then how we reallybuild out those development
(06:57):
plans.
And I do think AI is going toempower us to be far more
efficient in terms ofidentifying the opportunities
for development as well as.
Actually providing a lot of thatcoaching through some of the
tools that are being developedby some of the big providers in
the space.
I'm wondering, we can talk alittle bit about return to
office or RTO, because thatcertainly is a hot button in the
(07:19):
industry.
Maybe more broadly, it's notjust our industry, but it seems
that it's continuing to evolve alot of businesses over the last
several months have taken a muchmore, I don't know, stricter
approach.
I guess it'd be the words I'duse and they're using, they're
shifting from 3 to 4 summer backto 5 days a week.
I'm just wondering what yourpoint of view is on return to
(07:41):
office trends and how you see itevolving in the next few years.
Mike Gamble (07:45):
Yeah, great question.
Big question, Dorothy.
That's.
But you're right.
It's in all industries, butspecifically ours now as well.
I don't know if you saw theMcKinsey study this week.
I'll have to be sure to send itto you.
In fact, I think it just cameout yesterday.
With the headlines that RTO willnot make employees more
(08:05):
productive, and that's a bigstatement, and it's a good read,
and I think that my, my sense onthis, and I know, where I stand
here, I think that, I think ifyou have an opportunity to have
a hybrid workforce, and again,in our industry, that's
different, we have a lot ofpeople that have to work with
us.
In the store, if you will in thehotel in the convention center
whatever the case might be.
(08:26):
And so you have to balance that.
You certainly have those who canwork remotely and do not need to
be in an office.
So that's an important balance.
But I think that I feel like ifyou can be hybrid, I think we'll
hybrid will be a part of ourworkforce for a very long time.
But I also think it'll swingback and forth.
With the unemployment rate andthe and it'll just be a pendulum
(08:46):
and it's really supply anddemand, right?
It's when the reality is, as theunemployment rate goes up,
companies will realize that theyneed to be more flexible, just
as we were, Dorothy, duringcoming out of COVID.
That is really, we were allremote, of course, but you can
see how slow that was to comeback to RTO.
It's essentially taken about 4or 5 years now.
(09:08):
And I just continue to cautionpeople To say that, to recruit
the best talent, retain the besttalent, boy it's more about the
productivity.
Then it is where they're doingthe work.
And that's why I think this newMcKinsey study is interesting.
And I look at amazing leaders inother industries like Jamie
diamond.
He's a brilliant man.
I do not agree with anythingthat he says about this topic.
(09:29):
And when he talks about that,people aren't productive.
Those who don't work in anoffice aren't productive and
they don't hustle.
That's just not true.
And yeah, I think that Dorothyto me speaks a little bit to the
gap.
Between the leaders that aretypically boomers, or in some
case, even above and the nextfuture generations and how they
want to work.
So I just I feel prettypassionately as you know about
(09:52):
this topic.
And I just think it's 1 that wehave to be cautious and not make
things mandatory and reallyfocus on productivity.
More than where they're doingthe work is really where I fall
on that.
Dorothy Dowling (10:06):
I think having that metric focused approach
that you're identifying Mike isreally something that leaders
have to embrace because I dothink there's certain roles as
you've identified that wherethere are no options that people
have to be on property or inoffice for but roles that afford
people some of that flexibility.
I do think as long as they'redriving home, the business
(10:26):
outcomes.
Then that should be the metricsthat people drive some of that
decisioning around.
Yeah, so I'm wondering if wecould explore a little bit more
on culture, benefits,compensation and really get your
point of view in terms of howexpectations may be shifting or
have shifted from both thecandidate and an employer
(10:48):
perspective.
Mike Gamble (10:51):
Yeah, Dorothy, boy, the one thing and Gallup really
emphasizes this, there's always,there's been much more focused
on culture but the well being ofthe employees, the associates in
the meaningful work.
Are two things that I think arepretty new for all of us in the
last few years, the nextgeneration is currently and will
(11:11):
continue to work differentlythan you and I did I we both
came up, we went where thecompany told us to go and we
work 70 hours a week and wewore, I wore that as a badge of
honor.
That amount of time was justwhat I did.
We moved and I had my life fitin with that.
And I think today that thegenerations want to, younger
generation want to live theirbest life and have a job that
(11:32):
fits in with that.
And that's a different mindsetand mentality.
And some good companies arereally understanding that.
And that doesn't, again, doesnot mean that you give up
productivity in order to havethat.
It's just a different way towork than what we're all
perhaps.
And yeah, I think that the otherpiece that we hear a lot,
(11:55):
Dorothy from candidates is thatculture and a great boss and
being are more important thanmoney from many, especially in
the Z, the Gen Z and some of theyounger generations, not all,
I'm not trying to stereotypegenerations, but again that's
different than I think mygeneration the baby boomer
(12:17):
generation where I was verydriven.
Yeah.
By what's my next job?
What kind of a position willthat be?
And how much will I make?
That's terrific.
I'm ready to go up the corporateladder and show me the way.
That's not going to be the case.
So I think that those are thethings that we see are most
competitive today, Dorothy, andthat it's less about people.
(12:38):
They want good benefits.
They want good pay.
They want all those things.
Of course.
But honestly, they're notranking them as high as some of
the other things that Imentioned, and that is, again,
culture, but also the personyou're going to work for.
Dorothy Dowling (12:49):
And I think that's really important again,
messages like for our audience,because I know for me.
I was really disturbed when Isaw the Gallup engagement
scores, particularly for the U.
S.
And seeing that we're at ourlowest engagement scores with
our teammates than we have everbeen in our history.
So I think that mindset ofculture being a good leader to
(13:13):
your teammates and then alsoreally recognizing that This
work life harmony for a lot ofthese individuals is really
important and they will holdtheir leaders accountable to
that.
So great messaging.
So I'd like to move on because Iknow our audience is always
interested about their careerand how to manage, their career.
(13:35):
I'm wondering if you could offerany thoughts in terms of what
makes a candidate stand out intoday's competitive marketplace.
Mike Gamble (13:43):
I, I've noticed In the last 10 years, I guess I'd
say, Dorothy, the emphasis on,on, on soft skills, on human
skills, on EQ, of course coupledall of that coupled with
authenticity.
I think that, it's easier tofind those who have the
technical ability, understandthe role and can do the job, but
(14:04):
what differentiates peopleoftentimes is the, are their
soft skills, their human skills,again, that EQ.
And the way in which they areable to collaborate, deliver
messages.
Things like that, I think theother piece that I would say is
it's amazing, Dorothy, how manydon't think to do homework about
the employer that they're goingto potentially interview with.
(14:27):
And so we spend a lot of timehelping our candidates to
understand how important that isbecause.
You have to be, you have to doyour research and be well
researched before you go intoany interview.
And we see the candidates thatdo that stand out.
Those who do not are eliminatedimmediately.
And it's not even close becausethere's nothing more flattering.
(14:49):
Then, and you know the story,you've hired hundreds, maybe
thousands in your career.
Nothing more flattering thanthose candidates who've really
done their homework.
And you feel, wow, you've reallyresearched the company, me, our
team, like that feels good.
And there's nothing moreinsulting than the opposite.
When all of a sudden you'resitting there in 20 minutes
realizing, did you even look atour website?
Have you even seen our digitalplatform?
(15:11):
And so Those pieces, as simpleas that is, that differentiates
the candidates today.
And then lastly, Dorothea, it'sthe follow up.
There just isn't any follow upafter the interviews.
And I mean at the C level, okay,all the way through.
But at the most senior of execswill often say, don't forget
the.
To send a note, and ahandwritten one is really
(15:33):
special, but at least an email.
And so again, I know I have fourkids, Dorothy, they're 25 to 32,
and I would tell them when theywere out, looking for their
first jobs, I said, you candifferentiate yourself.
And you're competitive set bydoing a couple of these things.
Cause they think that you'llimmediately separate yourself,
with just these, again, thesehuman skills.
Dorothy Dowling (15:55):
I think that's really great advice.
And I think, salespeople oftenare very good.
Doing all of that kind ofresearch, because that's how
they build a piece of business.
And so I think if people takethat mindset and get out there
and do a lot of the digitalresearch, but quite frankly,
Mike, I think often, they haveto get out and do some of the
physical research and if there'ssites involved and other kinds
(16:16):
of things to get out there andtry and experience whatever.
The product or services so thatthey can have a point of view
from a customer point of viewand hopefully add some value as
they interview through thatprocess.
I'd like to turn the table nowand also ask about hiring
leaders, because as we talkedabout employees wanting to hire
their boss, what can a hiringleader learn from you in terms
(16:40):
of how they can positionthemselves to the best
candidates so that they choosethe job and decide to come on
board.
Mike Gamble (16:48):
Yeah, boy, again, a great question.
There's a real message that issent based on your interview
process, Dorothy, and how eitherefficient or clunky that is.
And so we often talk a lot aboutthat.
If when you're interviewing andeven onboarding, if there's even
after you hire someone thatfirst.
A few interviews, and then thosefirst couple of months in the
(17:09):
job, it really should be thebest of each other.
And if it's not, then you know,that's not going to be a good
long term relationship, right?
And so I think that, I thinkagain, it's helping our clients
to understand that, hey,authenticity rules let's show
the real culture.
It's easy for candidates toreally identify if the culture
is real or not.
(17:29):
I'll tell you the companiesthat, I think the companies that
concentrate on their brandpromise.
For their current and futureemployees are the ones that are
really winning.
And you know who I think isdoing that well, Dorothy, is
Hilton.
I think they've been doing thatwell for quite a few years for
such a large hotel company.
But the way in which they talkto their current employees and
(17:50):
their future employees andtheir, and that brand promise
about being a part of the Hiltonfamily.
And Marriott does a good jobtoo, don't get me wrong, I'm not
trying to say others don't.
But they really stand outbecause I think it's very
intentional.
And so I think it gives them anadvantage.
To when they're recruiting andhopefully even retaining because
again, it's just it's too easyto though you can't fake it
(18:12):
during the interview.
The employers just can't becauseit's too easy with glass door,
too many ways to find out ifit's real or not.
So you better have an authenticand real culture to start with
or you're gonna, you're gonnalose the talent war for the most
part.
And we really do believe that.
Our clients who've got thatbuttoned up and figured out they
get they are able to recruit andretain the best talent.
(18:32):
That's, there's really no debatethere.
So those are a couple of thingsthat I would highlight.
Dorothy Dowling (18:38):
Okay, that's great advice.
I'm, I'd like to expand on thata little bit because she
referenced retention, which, forme is critically important
because as we think about salesand marketing roles, holding on
to the customers you have isalways job one.
And I would say the same appliesto talent.
So are there other.
Ideas that you could expand uponthat great companies are really
(18:59):
deploying to hold on to theiremployees and keep them engaged.
Mike Gamble (19:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
This one's not very not verycreative and probably doesn't
seem that out of the box, butit's this mutual trust and
respect.
Dorothy and that gets back alittle bit to the return to
office and remote work versusnot, and are we really trust
that they're working and if, arewe measuring them properly so
that we can trust them?
And I think that let's notmicromanage, let's not watch the
(19:28):
clock and see when they'reworking.
Let's measure the right things.
I think it's really important.
One thing that jumps out that Iwould not have said 10 years ago
is sabbaticals.
Dorothy it's amazing.
We see that in the destinationsector and the hotel sector
venues with more and moresabbaticals being offered.
And I'll tell you the, and I'mat the C suite and all honestly,
(19:49):
all the way through theorganization, but starting in
the C suite.
And I think that is reallyrefreshing because that's hard
to do when you think about itfor a small company or a large
one, when I think about it, I'vegot a little over 20 employees.
Gosh, how would I let someone doa 3 month or a 6 month
sabbatical, but the companieswho have figured it out?
I think that's a bigdifferentiator.
(20:10):
And lastly.
It's what, again, you and I havetalked about a lot, this
investing in the skilldevelopment of your people and
in their mental health and intheir wellbeing and when they
really feel like you care aboutthem and improving their skills
and improving their mentalhealth.
(20:31):
Wow, I think that is a recipe tokeep someone long term within
your organization because again,it creates an authentic and
meaningful relationship, betweenthe employee and the employer.
So those are a couple of thingsthat Dorothy that stick out to
me.
Dorothy Dowling (20:46):
I think the big message that I really like that
you offered Mike is this elementof trust because relationships
are based on trust.
And I do think.
If I think about some of theengagement scores that Gallup
released this year I think thatis one of the underlying
problems is that employees don'tfeel value to respected and
(21:06):
trusted.
And that's an area that I thinkwe all have to do some
thoughtful, unpacking to figureout how do we do that better.
Mike Gamble (21:14):
Yeah, I think you're right.
Dorothy Dowling (21:16):
So I'd like to move on to some of the big roles
because there's so many peoplethat, have big aspirations that
they'd like to land in the Csuite someday.
So I'd like to give you thissentence and say, if you had to
fill in the blank, the strongestC suite candidates possess these
attributes, what would you say?
Mike Gamble (21:37):
Boy, this list could get, can get long pretty
quickly, Dorothy, but I have afew that I keep at the top of my
list.
And I don't mean to be redundantbut I am this high EQ is a big
one in this authenticity isanother, but then I think right
after that about humility.
And I and I see some and I'msorry, Dorothy.
(22:02):
I thought we lost each other.
I see that sometimes people justlose that and lose the fact
that, we're all humans and wecan I think we can lead with
humility and I think that'simportant.
And listen, of course integrityand ethics.
That's high on the list.
But this collaborative piece,Dorothy of at all levels, we
have found that in the C suitethat it's Even CEOs and C level
(22:25):
executives have really learnedover the years to be a great
leader.
You've got to be a collaborativeteam leader and team builder.
And so that's high on my list.
Empathy.
Again, I can give you a list of20 but those are the ones that
it, you know from me that areright off the, a good strategic
vision.
Passion but again, I lead withthe EQ, the authenticity and the
(22:46):
humility are the ones that wehear the most and we see the
most and that our clients.
Dorothy Dowling (22:51):
Mike and truly, I do think that element of
humility and people not thinkingthat the smartest person in the
room and they have all theanswers is a very important
skill set for people torecognize because there's so
many great thoughts that comefrom teammates if we give them
the space and the comfort tooffer their ideas.
(23:12):
So I'm also wondering if youcould share some of your
favorite interview questionswhen you're assessing those
leadership capabilities and Csuite executives.
Mike Gamble (23:21):
I think if anyone's watching that's worked with us
especially for C levelinterviews there, when you get
to that final one or two, andthey're either presenting or,
you're on that second or thirdinterview a favorite of ours,
and which turns out to be afavorite of our clients is to
really, to really understand thevision of a leader is to say,
Hey let's think five years fromnow, and what is the
(23:44):
organization and your team?
Look like under your leadershipand how did you get there?
And I think that the way inwhich leaders can work through a
question like that, I think isinteresting.
And it it allows our clients toreally unpack the way that they
think about a big question likethat.
Another one is About status quo,give us an example of when
(24:07):
you've had to challenge thestatus quo.
And how did you approach thesituation?
What was the outcome?
That's another one, Dorothy.
And a third one, because this weknow this happens in all
industries and all businesses,we all have dilemmas, but when
there's an ethical dilemma, giveus an example of when you've had
a situation that was an ethicaldilemma and in your role and as
(24:32):
a leader and for your team andfor your company, how'd you
resolve it?
And what you learned from it.
And so those are three favoritesthat, but I honestly think they
become our candidates favoritestoo, because they've likely have
multiple examples of all those.
And yeah, those are a couplethat I'd like to share.
Dorothy Dowling (24:50):
I think those are great questions to really,
they're very thought provokingand hopefully the audience
that's listening and watchingcan think through some of those
things because I do think youhave to.
Really spend some time investingin how you would articulate
those perspectives on thosequestions.
Yeah I know you referenced someof the mistakes in terms of
(25:11):
follow up after interviews, etcetera.
But I'm wondering if there'sanything else you might offer to
the audience in terms of commonmistakes that you see executives
making interviews and whatadvice you would give them to
stand out.
Mike Gamble (25:25):
Yeah.
It's first, first we always haveto remember there's a lot of
adrenal adrenaline.
You get it's an intenseinterview.
If it's with a committee or ifit's what, whatever it might be,
you've, you're usually prettycharged up and ready to go.
One thing that we say right awayis just always remember that
you're not running the meetingAnd what that means is it's just
(25:46):
a simple thing that we say it isto, and that is to say.
They're running the meeting.
And so you're listening to thequestions and answering the
questions.
And so that's a big one for us.
The other one is again, back tomy do your homework, because I
think that all through aninterview, if you've done your
homework, you then have to bereally specific about how you
(26:07):
sprinkle that knowledge inthroughout the interview.
And I think that it doesn't haveto be obvious and it's not all
at once.
And it's just, you sprinkle itin an hour and a half or two
hours and Boy, that will letthat will leave the interviewer
or the committee with a verygood taste in their mouth.
The big one, Dorothy, I have tosay though is try to answer the
question that was asked.
(26:28):
Not two or three additionalquestions you think you should
answer with the originalquestion that was asked.
And that's hard.
That again is hard.
When there's a lot of adrenalineand it's that one question.
And then all of a sudden, fiveminutes later, we're suddenly
talking, we're answering thesame thing, but we're talking
about something completelydifferent.
It's that ability to say, gosh,they'll get there.
(26:49):
The interviewer will get there.
Just remember, they're runningthe meeting.
And so just try to follow theircadence.
I think that's a big piece forus.
And then lastly and this is abig one too, is you've got to
have some questions ready again,nothing worse.
And you, Dorothy, you and I haveboth been there.
I wish I was just there recentlywith my own company and I said
(27:10):
what questions do you have forme?
And.
Really none.
Gosh, don't tell me you don'thave any questions.
There have to be some questions,right?
And that's important.
And I think that I think thetype of questions at the sea
level.
I think the type of questionsyou ask is equally as important.
And so I think you have to havea couple of very tactical
questions.
And I think you have to have acouple of very big 30, 000 foot
(27:32):
visionary questions so that youdon't run the risk of leaving
the room and then saying, Ohgosh, they're only tactical or
gosh they're too big of athinker.
I think mixing both together aresuper important.
So those are a few things.
I know that probably soundedlike a really long list,
Dorothy, but those are a coupleof things that come to mind.
for C suite interviews.
Dorothy Dowling (27:52):
I think those are really impactful pieces of
wisdom that you've shared, Mike.
And to me, it really just speaksto the nature of being prepared
and being very thoughtful.
But I do think I think thatadvice of understanding who's
running the meeting is reallyimportant, especially for senior
leaders, because they're used tobeing in that other chair.
(28:14):
So thank you for sharing that.
That's a great piece of advice.
I'm wondering if we can move onin terms of thinking about
career growth for a lot of thelisteners that are paying that
are partaking in this interview.
And 1 of the questions that weoften ask are.
Our advisors that joined thispodcast is about professional
(28:36):
networking and how important itis in career advancement and
what advice you would give toindividuals as they start out
their careers in terms of that,is it important and how do they
go about building it?
Mike Gamble (28:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's an important question.
I, even in our small littlecompany, Dorothy, and we're
involved in a lot of industryassociations, greater industry
associations, and one of myrules is I, that's fine.
We're, I think we're a part ofprobably 35 plus organizations
and the rule is simple.
You can, you're not just goingto be a member.
We're going to get involved andwe're gonna get involved at the
(29:11):
committee level, eventually,perhaps at the board level.
That's really important.
It's important for your personalgrowth.
It's important for our companyand our brand, and I think all
those things are true.
Dorothy, I've worked for threecompanies in my career.
And one of course is my own, buttwo of those opportunities came
to me through my involvement andengagement in industry
(29:32):
associations and networking andlearning and growing.
But then people getting to knowme and who I am as a person and
how I work in a volunteercapacity.
And I think that I really, I'llnever forget that.
And I look at our younger groupsnow, and I think they want that.
And I think many say, Oh, theydon't want to do that.
(29:53):
That's not true.
I think they'd love to do it andthey want to be a part of an HSM
AI or an MPI.
And boy, we'd encourage, weencourage everyone to do that.
I think it's an important partof your career growth.
And for, and I think it's veryimportant part.
For your company engagement aswell.
You're, they're representingyour company, but you're also
representing yourself and you'reupskilling and learning a lot of
(30:14):
new things from a personalperspective, as much as
professional.
So that's a big one for me isget involved and and really do
it in a meaningful way.
And I think that makes a bigdifference in the career
journey.
Look you and I really got toknow each other.
We've known of each other,really got to know each other
through HSMAI.
And it's just, it's the naturalway, isn't it?
(30:36):
And I don't want anyone to everforget that.
What an important part that isin your career journey, too.
Dorothy Dowling (30:41):
Yeah, no, I totally concur with everything
you said, Mike.
And I do think for people thatare earlier in their career,
getting involved, it justaffords them not only a front
row seat from an observationallearning opportunity, but.
Just building some of that peermentorship and growth.
It's, it really is substantive.
(31:01):
I'm wondering if we could talk alittle bit about an ideal
relationship between a candidateand an executive curator,
because I'm not sure everyonereally understands that.
Mike Gamble (31:12):
Yeah, no that's fair.
That's Dorothy.
That was the biggest eye openerfor me 25 years ago when I
started is I suddenly realizedpeople thought I was Jerry
Maguire and that I was going torepresent them as a person,
right?
And I said, no, I'm not JerryMaguire.
I work for our clients.
And I think we have nearly 50opportunities we're working on
today with 50 great clients.
And I often say we're like arealtor, we're working for the
(31:33):
seller in this case, it's forour clients.
But the reality is we caredeeply.
About the candidates and we wantto nurture their journey as well
and have and help them to showup the best that they can, if
we're fortunate enough to putthem in front of one of our
clients.
And so that's a delicatebalance, but the reality is we
were paid by our clients and wework on their behalf, but we're
there to help make a deal.
(31:54):
We want to find the best talentwe can for them.
And what I would say is it's theideal relationship is all about
trust and honesty.
And when we work hard to helpthem to understand so that the
candidates understand what ourrole is, but that we're in the
long term relationship businesswith them, this isn't a
transaction business.
And so sometimes you may not getthat job, or you might, this
(32:16):
might not be the one for you.
We're going to maintain thatrelationship and find the right
fit.
And I think that piece of trustand honesty is critically
important.
Honesty is critically importantbecause.
Boy, neither one of us want tobe surprised during that journey
and we certainly don't forsomething you maybe didn't share
with us that you should havethat'll come up during an
interview.
(32:36):
And so that's, those are thethings that we really focused on
the focus on the most to havegood relationship.
Worked in our behalf.
I'll tell you, the opposite ofit is, Dorothy, I, we just the
honesty piece is a big one.
And when you've been in businesson 25 years, imagine the history
of resumes that we have.
So there are times where I'llsay, gosh, you sent us this
(32:57):
resume 18 years ago, where isthat job in that job?
Let's just have an honestconversation about that because,
this is the story of yourprofessional life.
Let's not take things offbecause it's convenient or it
was a short stint at that hotelor whatever the case might be.
Let's include it and just tellthe story.
It's a part of your story.
It's okay.
So that's the way we approachit.
Dorothy Dowling (33:19):
I do appreciate you being so honest, Mike, in
terms of really clearlyestablishing that you're there
to support the client.
And obviously the candidate ispart of that process and you do
have long term investments inthose relationships, but it is
understanding that is therelationship that candidate
should expect when they'redealing with a recruiter.
(33:40):
We're coming up near the end ofour interview here, Mike, and.
I'm just wondering if you couldoffer your best piece of advice
for individuals in thehospitality industry who want to
build a career map and plantheir career journey with
intention.
Mike Gamble (33:57):
Yeah, I think the big one, Dorothy, is to find a
good mentor or two, and I thinkthat I don't want to say that we
have not done that as well inthe last five or 10 years, but I
don't feel like we have, I justseemed easier to me maybe 15
years ago.
I I just, I don't know, but itstarts.
(34:18):
there with me.
And I think being then reallyintentional with your career
dreams and aspirations.
And I think mentor, a mentor canhelp you with that.
And that can come in many forms,it can be a previous boss,
coworker, whatever the casemight be.
And I, so I think that's a bigpiece of it.
And we talked about it gettinginvolved getting involved in
industry organizations is.
(34:39):
Is a big one.
But then lastly, and this onesounds so simple, Dorothy, but
we have to remember this simpleadage that, don't ever burn a
bridge.
And what's happened in the lastfew years with this ghosting by
the way, we see it on the clientside and the candidate side.
And honestly, it's appalling tome.
I'm thinking, what are wethinking here?
(35:00):
And for an executive searchfirm, we have a long memory and
a great database that's not theway we treat one another.
We just don't do that.
We don't not show up forinterviews or not show up for a
job and just think that's goingto drift away.
That's just not the way that wewant to act or treat one
another.
And that's a piece that we takethe time to talk to people about
(35:21):
that.
If they, if that happens tohappen to us, we help them to
understand how that can impact.
Your career long term, that'sthe same as burning a bridge is
what we now today call ghosting,right?
It's just it's something thatpeople just won't forget and but
again, I would say that it goesfor that goes for clients as
well I think we have to be a lotbetter about the way in which we
(35:43):
communicate with one anotherWhat important things like this
potential jobs.
So those are a few takeaways,Dorothy that I'd have today.
And yeah, I'd be interested tohear if you've got any to add to
that.
Dorothy Dowling (35:56):
No, I think you've just offered so many
brilliant ideas for bothcandidates and employers, Mike,
but I've always been of thatsame mindset about never burning
a bridge because the world issmall.
Our industry is small.
And I've always said to people,be careful of that informal
reference check, because whenyou do burn a bridge, you never
ever know who knows some of theindividuals that you might be
(36:20):
trying to get a role with andthem just being silent or
sometimes not being positiveabout your candidacy may be the
end of that opportunity for you.
So I agree with everything thatyou presented, Mike, and I'm
just so grateful for yourhonesty and candor.
I do think there's so manyindividuals that are.
Working on their career journeysand definitely want an
(36:42):
intentional career map to attainthe kind of dreams that they
have.
So I'm grateful that you tookthe time with us today.
I'm thankful of all of the greatwisdom that you shared with our
audience, and it really has beena privilege to speak with you.
So thank you.
Mike Gamble (36:57):
I feel the same way.
And thanks for inviting me.
And it's always great talking toyou, Dorothy.
I enjoyed it very much.
Dorothy Dowling (37:03):
Likewise, so if I may, I'd also like to thank
our audience and just offer ifyou've enjoyed this interview
today, I hope you'll visit us onour website.
It's personal stories dot com,where you'll see webcasts and
podcasts from other industryleaders that I know will empower
your knowledge and feel yourspirit.
So we hope to see you there.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!