September 9, 2025 • 30 mins
Rod shares his journey from working in high school catering services to becoming President of HVS. He reflects on his growth as a public speaker and his preparation, his approach to leadership, and why he prioritizes and models wellness and self-care. As an openly gay, Latino senior executive, Rob highlights the critical role that workplace culture, inclusion, and representation play in shaping his leadership.
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Rachel Humphrey (00:02):
I am Rachel Humphrey with its Personal
Stories at Hospitality Podcast.
We are a nonprofit out ofArizona in the hospitality
industry dedicated to empoweringpersonal success, and I'm really
excited to be joined today byRod Cluff, the president of HBS.
Rod, welcome to the program.
Rod Clough (00:19):
Thank you very much.
Happy to be here.
Rachel Humphrey (00:21):
Rod, we're gonna jump right in.
Spend a little bit of time todaytalking about your specific
journey to leadership and thenalso some of the insights you've
learned along the way.
One of the things that everybodyknows I love about the
hospitality industry is howincredibly unique two journeys
can be, and yet people still endup in roles of leadership within
the hospitality industry.
I think it's one of the mostspecial aspects of the industry.
(00:43):
So tell us a little bit aboutyou, your background, your
journey to leadership, and howyou got to where you are today.
Rod Clough (00:49):
Sure.
I grew up in a college town inBoulder, Colorado just down the
road from where I'm living now.
And, my first foray intoleadership was way back in high
school.
I had a job at CU Catering.
My dad at the time was doing alot of business with catering
and gotten to know the cateringdirector there.
(01:12):
He was associate Dean at one ofthe colleges and, and so I got
an afterschool job there andjust fell in love with it and
stuck around because I loved itso much.
And then a supervisory roleopened up and I jumped into it.
It was great fun to lead eventsand be in charge, make sure the
(01:32):
customers were happy, make surethe staff was doing, figuring
out how to.
Make sure the staff did theirjobs, but quite often the staff
or almost always, the staff wasolder than me.
They were college students forthe most part.
And then just pull, pullingeverything off without a hitch
from beginning to end.
It was a lot of fun.
And so I realized that I had apassion for it for working with
(01:55):
people and leading people, butat the same time.
Enjoying the work and makingrooms come to life and
everybody, enjoying their momentin whatever event we were doing.
Looking back on my life, I feellike that job, strangely enough,
like really had a lot of it, itended up having a lot of kind of
(02:15):
core importance.
For who?
Who it, I should say.
It.
It, it provided a really goodfoundation for my, starting my,
starting in the hospitalityindustry.
Rachel Humphrey (02:28):
I love hearing that there's something that
really, your first experienceled to a lifelong career in an
industry.
Tell us how that role at CU thenled to what you're doing with
HVS.
Rod Clough (02:41):
So my leader in that role now, I had grown up my
father was a chemical engineer.
And still is.
He loves his work.
Even to this day, he's writingtextbooks and rewriting
textbooks with his best friend.
A brilliant man and I rememberbeing in high school my junior
(03:01):
year, I was in AP physics and Iwas really struggling and I have
a vague memory of going down tothe dining room table, which is
where my dad always worked witha problem that I couldn't figure
out.
And I was a straight A studentand it was really hard that a,
was really hard to get and.
(03:23):
I, he said it in a loving way, Ithink.
But there was a look, I think onhis face of you're struggling
with this and you wanna be anengineer.
So that was a moment.
And then back to my cateringstory the manager of catering
division.
At the time her name was Tara.
She had gone to the CornellHotel School and was a grad, and
(03:45):
she took me to the side and sawhow much I was enjoying the
work, and she just planted theseed.
She's you should go to collegefor this.
You can make a career out ofthis.
And growing up in a world ofengineers and really a world of
stem, which is all I knew and myfriends knew, and they were all
applying for these positions.
(04:06):
Or these these college tracks.
I thought, oh my gosh, this isamazing.
And I, so I took that idea and Iran with it.
I applied to Cornell got intothe hotel school and never
looked back.
But if I hadn't had thatcatering job and met Tara.
And if Tara hadn't taken me tothe side and seen something in
me to plant the seed and eventell me that this even existed,
(04:30):
because back then in 19, oh mygosh, when was that?
1988.
There was no internet.
And yeah, there were co, therewere counselor offices in high
schools that you could go to,but they wouldn't have known of
the Cornell Hotel School inBoulder, Colorado.
So it was.
It was one of those momentswhere, wow, okay this is meant
(04:51):
to be.
Rachel Humphrey (04:52):
I am a big believer in sliding doors, and
so I think that those momentsthat change the direction that
your life takes so manyimportant themes in there.
Not just about having someonewho sees something in you and
makes a recommendation to you,but then taking that risk or
your dad giving you the side eyethat you interpreted to be that
maybe that wasn't your path.
(05:12):
One of the interesting things tome about your journey is you've
been with HBS for almost 30years, or just over 30 years
now.
We do see in hospitality,certainly a lot of longevity,
maybe different from some otherindustries.
I'm curious how you think yourleadership has changed over
time, and when you're at thesame company for that length of
(05:32):
time, how do you stay fresh?
How do you make sure that youdon't get complacent?
In that same with that samecompany.
Rod Clough (05:41):
Sure.
So I, I think my leadershipcertainly has changed over time.
I think in the beginning wasvery rigid and to the point
where I would write outprocedures and come up with
checklists and just be look ateverything in such minute
detail.
(06:01):
And real realizing that back inthe beginning when I was
learning the craft myself andhiring people that also didn't
know the craft, I had to do thatjust as a function of the work
and the function of building ateam along with wrapping it in a
really good culture so that thenthose folks wouldn't leave me.
(06:22):
And.
So over time, as I've built myteam and my leaders have stayed,
I've been able to release thatneed to oversee that level of
minutiae and manage that andmove on to looking at different
things and looking.
(06:43):
Looking at bigger picture thingsor looking at things that bring
me more satisfaction over timebecause the minutia can become
very draining.
So that's been nice to be ableto have a team that sticks with
you and then they then.
Take on the training and the,and that level of leadership in
their own light.
(07:03):
And I know they don't, they'renot training their people the
way I train them.
They're putting their own spinon things and that's great.
One of the other things Ibelieve in is really hands off
leadership.
Like once, once you findsomebody.
Who can be, who is reallyexceptional, just let them be
exceptional.
And there's no need to bechecking in on them all the time
(07:23):
and to see exactly what they'redoing and how they're doing it.
So that's been, another way.
That I've evolved.
There was another part to yourquestion I think that I didn't
quite, is how
Rachel Humphrey (07:33):
do you stay fresh with being with the same
company?
'cause for a lot of people, thefamiliar becomes very easy.
And this role is anything buteasy.
So how do you stay fresh?
Rod Clough (07:43):
So one of the complaints that I've received
from some employees over theyears is that we're always
changing and they.
It's come through on like myannual surveys that I, employee
surveys that I do that they're,some folks just don't like that.
They would write in the surveyspecifically.
They're like, rod needs to stopchanging our processes.
(08:05):
He needs to stop coming out withchange and new ideas.
We just need a moment tobreathe.
And that's just how I'm wired.
So I am always looking for newideas for the next best thing
for.
Brilliance that's out there inthe world.
I love borrowing that and seeinghow it can fit at HVS and
(08:27):
putting our own little spin onit and then launching it.
And sometimes it works andsometimes it doesn't work.
And then after a few years, wequietly let it retire and then
we come up with something elsethat's new.
And so we've ultimately overtime found a team of people that
kind of thrive in that.
Culture of what's next andwhatever's next.
(08:48):
It's prob probably gonna begreat, but I'm.
Where I learn my content is fromall sorts of different places.
I will be out at hotels and Isee a hotel being run
extraordinarily well, and I'llask a GM what they're about,
what they're doing.
I'll have, I have great, a greatset of friends that are in all
sorts of different industriesand they bring ideas to the
(09:10):
table.
I'm a recent, I've recently fellin love with podcasts and, and
also listening to books and I'mmore of a listener, not a
reader, but listening topeople's life stories and a lot
of autobiographies and businessbooks too and wellness books,
all sorts of different types ofbooks.
(09:30):
These authors have great ideasand so those tend to trickle
their way into HVS.
We have.
All sorts of different funchallenges that we do, or
gatherings that we do.
And we create this world wherethe ultimate goal is to create a
world where people don't wannaleave.
And it does take you back tothat our parents' generation, I
(09:52):
think where people would starttheir careers in the fifties and
sixties and early seventies,and.
And you would do so with thisintention of this is where my
career is gonna be.
I'm not gonna quit in two years.
And so that's how I, and my dadbeing a tenured professor,
that's how I was brought up.
He never ever left his job.
(10:14):
And so that was my world.
And very different from theworld today where folks wanna
stay for a couple years and thenmove on.
So we have to learn to celebratethat and embrace that reality.
But also let folks know, I'mgetting off on a tangent here,
but get, let folks know thatthis is a great place to stay.
And we'll make it fun and andthe ideas can come from
(10:37):
anywhere.
Rachel Humphrey (10:37):
Rod, I didn't know we had that in common.
My father was also a tenuredprofessor for 55 years at the
same college in New England, andI didn't know it any other way
when I left school as well.
I always love to share with ouraudience why someone was a
particular interest to me toinvite.
'cause as you just said, how youlike to learn through podcasts.
(10:58):
I like to share people's lifejourneys and insights.
Through the podcast and you hadreached out to me and said, Hey,
I can see that you areadvocating for greater
representation of women in theindustry and it is something
that we share in common.
I wanted to read the quotesspecifically because I was very
impressed by it, and I reachedout to you about it.
Your bio says.
(11:20):
As an openly gay Latino seniorexecutive, rod strongly believes
in fostering a welcome,welcoming workplace for all.
And I was really taken by thatbecause not only the focus on
culture, which is so importantin our leadership nowadays, but
also in representation.
And I was wondering if you couldshare a little bit about that
(11:42):
importance for you and is thatalso part of your evolving
leadership journey or has thatbeen with you from the
beginning?
Rod Clough (11:50):
Yeah.
It's been with me a from thebeginning.
I did grow up very much in awhite world.
Boulder, Colorado is not adiverse place.
But it was a loving city and awelcoming city.
It wasn't really until I got toCornell, where in Ethan, Cornell
in itself is not highly diverse,but it was certainly more
(12:12):
diverse than Boulder.
And I was exposed to all sortsof newness that I had never seen
before, and it was wonderful.
And I myself, back in the dayyou didn't really come out when
you were a kid like they dotoday.
So I didn't come out until I wasnearly 30.
And at that point I was in, atHVS and in, back in the Boulder
(12:36):
office before I launched my owndivision, right before I
launched my own division.
And the leader of the Boulderoffice at the time.
And the employees in the Boulderoffice were.
Amazing.
And like most of my closestfriends when I came out it
there, it just wasn't anysurprise.
It was like, okay, thank God hefinally came out.
But it was that.
(12:56):
And then a couple years later,me launching my own division and
also the founder of the companyand the Rushmore family.
Being very welcoming of e ofall.
They set a great culture fromthe get go.
Their second office ever wasco-owned and led by a woman,
Suzanne Mellon, who'sextraordinary in her own right.
(13:16):
And she's been
Rachel Humphrey (13:17):
a guest on the podcast as well.
Rod Clough (13:18):
Okay, great.
Suzanne's amazing and so I wasvery.
I did the work early on to bevery confident and proud of who
I was and what I represented it,what I represented it in my
orientation and also and with myskin color.
And I wanted to, and I knewothers weren't quite as, didn't
(13:42):
have that upbringing that I hadthat was so positive.
I did have my negative momentsin there, but they didn't
really.
Frame who I was.
There was a lot of positivitysurrounding that and I wanted to
be out and celebrate it from theget go.
What's happened, interestinglyenough over the course of the
past five years is that I have,and through the reading I've
(14:05):
done and listening that I'vedone and conversations that I've
had, is I've, I have evolved andI am very proud of who I am, but
I'm also equally.
Proud of and respectful of whateverybody else is because
everybody is different and comesfrom their own unique group and
(14:28):
they have their own challengesand identities that they come
with.
So they're all welcome too.
So my cisgender white men thatare who they are in every way
are.
If you think about it they'rejust as different as everybody
else's.
Like they have their own uniqueaspects and I hope, and I've
(14:53):
engendered a culture where theyknow that they're just as
welcome as my trans staff are,or as my.
My conservative Christian staffare versus my agnostic staff
are, or atheists.
It, it is what it is.
Like we're all so different whenyou get to building these teams.
(15:15):
You just want, we wanna focus onthe work and we want to focus on
funding our passion and workinghard, but we want to do so in a
place where we know we're gonnabe safe.
And and that's really what,that's really what I believe in.
And so by me just coming out andsaying this is who I am, I wanna
just put that out there, that Ifeel safe here.
(15:37):
And so you too should feel safe.
Rachel Humphrey (15:39):
It's really incredible and I'm very
appreciative for your sharing itwith us as part of your journey
and as part of your leadershipas well.
When we talk aboutrepresentation, one other aspect
of that, certainly, and you andI have talked about this, is.
Representation across industrystages as industry leaders.
If most of our industry'sleadership maybe fits into one
(16:03):
either gender description orrace or ethnicity description,
how do we make sure thatrepresentation that you are
experiencing with your companyis reflected across our stages?
I'm curious in public speaking,because you do a lot of it,
whether it's at conferences orpodcasts or other things, if
that's something you've alwaysbeen comfortable with, do you
have.
Process that you implementbefore you're going to take the
(16:26):
stage.
Any advice you would have asyou're bringing up the next
generation of speakers at HVSthat you impart on them?
Rod Clough (16:33):
Sure.
So it, it really wasn't.
Something I did very much.
It's a new, it's a new musclefor me.
I've grown up with a bit ofimposter syndrome, I think is
the right saying where I havesurrounded myself always with
even back, gosh to when I was ingrade school.
(16:54):
I would always find the smarterkid in class and I would become
friends with them.
I did it all through Cornell.
I just would, I would do thatand then they would inspire me
and really push me, and I wouldwanna excel as much as they,
they were excelling.
And so too, here at HVSI, Iwould surround myself with the
(17:15):
best, but.
But by doing that, it's a littlebit daunting because you wanna
take the stage, but you're like,but I'm not quite the smartest
person here, so let me have thesmartest person take the stage.
And so for the first 20 to 25years of my career, really 25
years of my career, I didn'ttake the stage because there was
(17:35):
always somebody in my mind.
That I thought was a little bitsmarter and a little bit better
than me.
I had to completely change my,the way I was thinking about
public speaking and and.
And embrace and realize that, Iam smart enough and I can take
the stage and I would take thestage at my company events and I
(17:57):
would lead them and people, Iwould get the entire ballroom
laughing and they, I wouldfinish the day at my annual
summits and people would just belike, rod, you've got, not to
toot my own horn, but they'd belike lying gift on stage.
And you made that so much funand you connected with
everybody.
Why aren't you doing this morein, in an industry ballroom?
(18:19):
And so I finally did, I'm like,you know what?
I love being on stage.
So let me lean into this.
And then, this is only justrecently where I realized I I'm
beginning to realize that more.
It doesn't always just have tobe the same two or three people
speaking at a company, and thatit can be everybody at all
(18:40):
levels, because we're all sosmart at this.
And everybody has a story totell.
So I did, I've been working onit.
I've been, I have been trainingI took a class immersive
storytelling, which you, whichis a fantastic class taught by
Ali Hoit and Carter Wilson.
I did that.
I through, through that class,really.
(19:01):
And other things that I've takenon and other teachings I've
taken on the importance ofpracticing in advance.
I, some are even saying, you,you should practice a a speech
15 or 20 times before you giveit.
That takes a lot of time whenit's an hour long speech.
So I don't, I'm not quite atthat level yet but the
(19:22):
importance of practicingrecording yourself listening
back, planning everything out.
It's really a big deal and itdoes make a big difference.
My rule when I take the stage inaddition to practicing and
making sure that I'm ready to goeven if I know the content, like
you still need to practice, but,is to I desperately want to the
(19:44):
room to chuckle.
They don't need to do a bellylaugh, but I want a chuckle at
some point during the speech.
And then I'd love, this has onlyhappened a couple times, but if
I can get somebody at the end ofthe conference when they're.
Recapping the highlights of theconference.
(20:04):
If one of those highlights couldbe me that's always a feel good
love that it means that, I madean impression because the last
thing you want to do.
Is b just another one of thevery smart and brilliant
conference speakers, but theones where you're like, okay, I
can't wait to, for, to get ontothe next speaker.
This person is just notthrilling me.
(20:26):
And so a lot of that does goback to storytelling.
What story are you telling?
How are you connecting with theaudience?
How are you making it fun andinteresting?
And then, yes, throwing in thedata and the insight along the
way but make it fun.
Rachel Humphrey (20:40):
I love the intentionality that you are
approaching it with though, withthe goals in mind, with the
practice investing in yourselfto get it right.
I also liked what you said aboutyour own imposter syndrome
being.
A hindrance to your publicspeaking, but listening to the
voices of others who are like,you should be doing this more.
And sometimes I find that if Ilet my support system's voices
(21:02):
be louder than my own, thengreat things can happen after
that.
I wanna switch gears for asecond to building a great team,
because you have talked aboutbringing leaders along who then
you allow to lead.
You've talked about.
Having this team around you.
As far as the public speakinggoes, having a culture where you
want people to feel safe whenyou're actually interviewing,
(21:24):
when you are looking to expandyour team, is there an it factor
that you're looking for?
Is there, are there traits,common traits that you found
like, my best hires have kind ofthese things in common.
What are you looking at whenyou're trying to make those
important decisions?
Rod Clough (21:40):
So that's a tough one for me, to be honest.
The, we have a re a rigoroushiring process where folks
initially have to answer somescreening questions and then
have a screening interview, andthen we do a an exam where folks
have to do a lot of writing andnumerical work and pass the exam
(22:03):
with a high score.
And then once that's done, we doa day in the life.
And we bring somebody intotheir, the office that they're
gonna be in, and they spend agood part of a day with us.
Going to lunch, hanging out,looking at what we're doing a
couple things to help us outthat day and just to see if, see
how it's gonna go.
But then beyond that, likethat's all we can really do.
(22:25):
We, depending on how all thatgoes, we will hire somebody and.
And usually it works out.
But, every now and then it, itjust doesn't.
And so for us it's more of atime will tell kind of thing.
We do hire I think from the getgo but even in our last hiring
class, we had.
Five, or six people start andtwo of them, this was back in
(22:51):
like March and two of them havemoved on.
It just didn't end up being agood fit.
I will say though, over time, ifpeople stay with it and they
love the work and they love theculture, and then they wanna
move into that leadership rolewe do a good job of at embracing
that and helping people alongthat path.
Rachel Humphrey (23:11):
I think it's a good recognition that not every
fit is a great fit, though.
You're right.
You can have a great hire and itnot be a right fit and vice
versa.
I could talk with you all daylong and we're gonna end up
running out time.
So I'm gonna do a couple ofrapid fire ones with you.
There's a.
Kind of a renewed interest rightnow, especially for me, but in
self-care and wellness andprobably in a lot of the folks
(23:32):
that are joining your team.
I'm curious if you have aself-care or wellness journey,
if you have somenon-negotiables.
Are you, do you do a good job oftaking care of yourself in this
demanding role?
And what insight or advice wouldyou give to some of our rising
leaders who might be strugglingto find that balance between
establishing a career and takingcare of themselves?
Rod Clough (23:55):
Yeah, I love this question.
I am a huge believer in wellnessboth education wise and
execution wise.
I had the busiest month of mylast five years, this last month
because we landed a hugeengagement and going into that,
I just knew I'm gonna, I'm gonnakeep my fitness going.
(24:17):
I've got.
I go to the gym every morning tonot every morning, but four days
out of the week I'll go to thegym for weightlifting, but every
day I go walking and I walk foran hour each day, and it's
usually my podcast hour.
I'll listen to a few of myfavorite podcasts or a book.
(24:38):
I've got a walking playlist thatI have or I'll schedule.
I go at a pretty good pace, butI can do some phone calls on, on
my walks as well.
So I normally start my daybetween five and 6:00 AM'cause
I'm in Colorado and it's, it'searly to rise here in Colorado
when you live west of New York.
And then by nine or 10 o'clockin the morning, I'm ready for a
(25:01):
break.
So I'll do that.
And then that is married with avery.
Careful regimen of eating for meand drinking a lot of water no
soda.
Focusing on my sleep, makingsure that I'm in bed every night
by 9:00 PM I wake up early butI'm to bed early as well.
And we've got a wellnesscommittee at HBS.
(25:22):
We do wellness challengesthrough well able we really we
give everybody a water, Tumblr.
We, I share my stories ofwellness and my staff see that
I'm prioritizing wellness.
I'm on Strava.
They can join me on Strava, theycan see where I'm working out,
where I'm walking every day.
And people love that.
They love knowing that if thepresident's doing it, and the
(25:44):
president's stepping away fromhis desk for an hour to go
walking.
Maybe I can too.
I love
Rachel Humphrey (25:50):
the modeling.
That's so important.
I love that you have thenon-negotiables of the walking
in the gym.
Yeah.
And then hydration and otherthings.
Sleep is the one that stillalludes me, but I'm trying to
get better at it.
But I love modeling it and forother people to know that's what
you're doing and that it's okay.
'cause it really.
Forces the importance of it.
One of my favorite questionsalways to ask because I think we
(26:13):
are all works in progress and weare all continuing to evolve as
people, as careerists, what itmay be is what advice we would
give to our younger self.
So I'm curious, rad, as you sithere today and you think back,
whether it be to that boy in thecatering department or to you're
taking off or graduating fromCornell.
What would you tell 18 or21-year-old Rod, either about
(26:35):
how things have turned out foryou or maybe something that you
wish you knew then that you knowtoday?
Rod Clough (26:40):
Oh gosh, there's a lot.
I think I wouldn't, I probablywouldn't have jumped so head
over heels into my firstrelationship because it took me
a minute to find my currenthusband and we always think of
oh my gosh, what if we had foundourselves a little earlier in
life?
But that's, that's one thing.
I didn't embrace fitness untillater on in my life and I love
(27:01):
it and I wish I had done that inmy twenties.
And more reading.
I'm just, like I said, I'm alistener, but, and we didn't, I
don't think we, there wasn'treally a lot of books on tape
back then and in the nineties,but but more reading.
More reading.
I really push with my staff to,we have a dashboard online that
pops up on your screen at thebeginning of your day.
(27:23):
And you put, you can uploadyour, you're meant to upload a y
photo and it sits at the topright hand corner of your
screen.
And then.
Through our Franklin Coveytraining, which we've done a lot
of and continue to we all haveour big rocks that you're
supposed to be spending time onthe stuff that matters and it's
important.
So you have your y photo andthose big rocks and it's all
(27:45):
about getting out of thewhirlwind of the work and
understanding that the work thatwe're doing at HVS is funding
our passion.
And I wish I would have donethat more as a kid.
Of what is my passion?
And I don't have to just beworking all the time.
Like I can actually be spendingmore of these younger years
having just a little bit morefun.
(28:07):
I think I would've told myyounger self, it's all gonna be
okay.
You can take some of that money.
Instead of socking away andsaving it, which saving is good,
but maybe have a little bit morefun.
I don't think I had enough fun.
Rachel Humphrey (28:21):
I love that.
I like the, everything will beokay.
I feel like that's what I usedto my answer to.
This used to be the everythingwill be okay.
Now it's more focused on takingcare of yourself as part of.
Daily routine, but I love thateverything will be okay.
As we sit here today, thinkingabout the motto of its personal
stories, which is empoweringpersonal success, is there any
(28:44):
final advice that you wouldleave our audience with?
Rod Clough (28:49):
I think for personal success, and if I were to just
be able to burrow intosomebody's soul and to just.
Tell them really how, what itmeans is to, like I said, just
to really understand what thatbigger picture goal is for you
(29:11):
and to really structure time andeffort around how does that look
in your life and what are youdoing?
Time is just, I, maybe thishappens once you turn 50, I'm
not sure.
But for me, when I turned 50,all of a sudden time started
moving a lot faster than when Iwas in my thirties and forties.
(29:33):
And I imagine when I turn 60it's gonna move even faster.
And I think just taking chargeof that understanding that time
is moving quickly and it's ourmost valuable resource.
And how are you using it?
What are you doing?
We put all this planning intoour work.
How are we gonna complete thisassignment and how are we gonna
get this out to the client?
(29:55):
Why aren't we doing that withour lives?
We could be doing, I think, sucha better job of that.
So that's my advice.
Rachel Humphrey (30:02):
That's great advice.
Rod, I'm so excited that youjoined me today, shared more
about your personal journey,some of the things that you've
learned along the way.
I'm really grateful to have youjoin the podcast today.
So thank you very much for doingso.
Rod Clough (30:16):
It's been my pleasure.
Thank
Rachel Humphrey (30:18):
you very much and to your audience, we hope
you've enjoyed my time todaywith Rod.
You can visitover@itspersonalstories.com.
If you are out walking on yourpod and you wanna be listening
to podcasts, we have about 250interviews with our industry's
most impactful leaders.
We hope you'll check them outthere.
But Rod, thank you very muchagain and thank you for your
leadership.
Rod Clough (30:38):
Thank you.
I.
I am Rachel Humphrey with its Personal
Stories at Hospitality Podcast.
We are a nonprofit out ofArizona in the hospitality
industry dedicated to empoweringpersonal success, and I'm really
excited to be joined today byRod Cluff, the president of HBS.
Rod, welcome to the program.
Rod Clough (00:19):
Thank you very much.
Happy to be here.
Rachel Humphrey (00:21):
Rod, we're gonna jump right in.
Spend a little bit of time todaytalking about your specific
journey to leadership and thenalso some of the insights you've
learned along the way.
One of the things that everybodyknows I love about the
hospitality industry is howincredibly unique two journeys
can be, and yet people still endup in roles of leadership within
the hospitality industry.
I think it's one of the mostspecial aspects of the industry.
(00:43):
So tell us a little bit aboutyou, your background, your
journey to leadership, and howyou got to where you are today.
Rod Clough (00:49):
Sure.
I grew up in a college town inBoulder, Colorado just down the
road from where I'm living now.
And, my first foray intoleadership was way back in high
school.
I had a job at CU Catering.
My dad at the time was doing alot of business with catering
and gotten to know the cateringdirector there.
(01:12):
He was associate Dean at one ofthe colleges and, and so I got
an afterschool job there andjust fell in love with it and
stuck around because I loved itso much.
And then a supervisory roleopened up and I jumped into it.
It was great fun to lead eventsand be in charge, make sure the
(01:32):
customers were happy, make surethe staff was doing, figuring
out how to.
Make sure the staff did theirjobs, but quite often the staff
or almost always, the staff wasolder than me.
They were college students forthe most part.
And then just pull, pullingeverything off without a hitch
from beginning to end.
It was a lot of fun.
And so I realized that I had apassion for it for working with
(01:55):
people and leading people, butat the same time.
Enjoying the work and makingrooms come to life and
everybody, enjoying their momentin whatever event we were doing.
Looking back on my life, I feellike that job, strangely enough,
like really had a lot of it, itended up having a lot of kind of
(02:15):
core importance.
For who?
Who it, I should say.
It.
It, it provided a really goodfoundation for my, starting my,
starting in the hospitalityindustry.
Rachel Humphrey (02:28):
I love hearing that there's something that
really, your first experienceled to a lifelong career in an
industry.
Tell us how that role at CU thenled to what you're doing with
HVS.
Rod Clough (02:41):
So my leader in that role now, I had grown up my
father was a chemical engineer.
And still is.
He loves his work.
Even to this day, he's writingtextbooks and rewriting
textbooks with his best friend.
A brilliant man and I rememberbeing in high school my junior
(03:01):
year, I was in AP physics and Iwas really struggling and I have
a vague memory of going down tothe dining room table, which is
where my dad always worked witha problem that I couldn't figure
out.
And I was a straight A studentand it was really hard that a,
was really hard to get and.
(03:23):
I, he said it in a loving way, Ithink.
But there was a look, I think onhis face of you're struggling
with this and you wanna be anengineer.
So that was a moment.
And then back to my cateringstory the manager of catering
division.
At the time her name was Tara.
She had gone to the CornellHotel School and was a grad, and
(03:45):
she took me to the side and sawhow much I was enjoying the
work, and she just planted theseed.
She's you should go to collegefor this.
You can make a career out ofthis.
And growing up in a world ofengineers and really a world of
stem, which is all I knew and myfriends knew, and they were all
applying for these positions.
(04:06):
Or these these college tracks.
I thought, oh my gosh, this isamazing.
And I, so I took that idea and Iran with it.
I applied to Cornell got intothe hotel school and never
looked back.
But if I hadn't had thatcatering job and met Tara.
And if Tara hadn't taken me tothe side and seen something in
me to plant the seed and eventell me that this even existed,
(04:30):
because back then in 19, oh mygosh, when was that?
1988.
There was no internet.
And yeah, there were co, therewere counselor offices in high
schools that you could go to,but they wouldn't have known of
the Cornell Hotel School inBoulder, Colorado.
So it was.
It was one of those momentswhere, wow, okay this is meant
(04:51):
to be.
Rachel Humphrey (04:52):
I am a big believer in sliding doors, and
so I think that those momentsthat change the direction that
your life takes so manyimportant themes in there.
Not just about having someonewho sees something in you and
makes a recommendation to you,but then taking that risk or
your dad giving you the side eyethat you interpreted to be that
maybe that wasn't your path.
(05:12):
One of the interesting things tome about your journey is you've
been with HBS for almost 30years, or just over 30 years
now.
We do see in hospitality,certainly a lot of longevity,
maybe different from some otherindustries.
I'm curious how you think yourleadership has changed over
time, and when you're at thesame company for that length of
(05:32):
time, how do you stay fresh?
How do you make sure that youdon't get complacent?
In that same with that samecompany.
Rod Clough (05:41):
Sure.
So I, I think my leadershipcertainly has changed over time.
I think in the beginning wasvery rigid and to the point
where I would write outprocedures and come up with
checklists and just be look ateverything in such minute
detail.
(06:01):
And real realizing that back inthe beginning when I was
learning the craft myself andhiring people that also didn't
know the craft, I had to do thatjust as a function of the work
and the function of building ateam along with wrapping it in a
really good culture so that thenthose folks wouldn't leave me.
(06:22):
And.
So over time, as I've built myteam and my leaders have stayed,
I've been able to release thatneed to oversee that level of
minutiae and manage that andmove on to looking at different
things and looking.
(06:43):
Looking at bigger picture thingsor looking at things that bring
me more satisfaction over timebecause the minutia can become
very draining.
So that's been nice to be ableto have a team that sticks with
you and then they then.
Take on the training and the,and that level of leadership in
their own light.
(07:03):
And I know they don't, they'renot training their people the
way I train them.
They're putting their own spinon things and that's great.
One of the other things Ibelieve in is really hands off
leadership.
Like once, once you findsomebody.
Who can be, who is reallyexceptional, just let them be
exceptional.
And there's no need to bechecking in on them all the time
(07:23):
and to see exactly what they'redoing and how they're doing it.
So that's been, another way.
That I've evolved.
There was another part to yourquestion I think that I didn't
quite, is how
Rachel Humphrey (07:33):
do you stay fresh with being with the same
company?
'cause for a lot of people, thefamiliar becomes very easy.
And this role is anything buteasy.
So how do you stay fresh?
Rod Clough (07:43):
So one of the complaints that I've received
from some employees over theyears is that we're always
changing and they.
It's come through on like myannual surveys that I, employee
surveys that I do that they're,some folks just don't like that.
They would write in the surveyspecifically.
They're like, rod needs to stopchanging our processes.
(08:05):
He needs to stop coming out withchange and new ideas.
We just need a moment tobreathe.
And that's just how I'm wired.
So I am always looking for newideas for the next best thing
for.
Brilliance that's out there inthe world.
I love borrowing that and seeinghow it can fit at HVS and
(08:27):
putting our own little spin onit and then launching it.
And sometimes it works andsometimes it doesn't work.
And then after a few years, wequietly let it retire and then
we come up with something elsethat's new.
And so we've ultimately overtime found a team of people that
kind of thrive in that.
Culture of what's next andwhatever's next.
(08:48):
It's prob probably gonna begreat, but I'm.
Where I learn my content is fromall sorts of different places.
I will be out at hotels and Isee a hotel being run
extraordinarily well, and I'llask a GM what they're about,
what they're doing.
I'll have, I have great, a greatset of friends that are in all
sorts of different industriesand they bring ideas to the
(09:10):
table.
I'm a recent, I've recently fellin love with podcasts and, and
also listening to books and I'mmore of a listener, not a
reader, but listening topeople's life stories and a lot
of autobiographies and businessbooks too and wellness books,
all sorts of different types ofbooks.
(09:30):
These authors have great ideasand so those tend to trickle
their way into HVS.
We have.
All sorts of different funchallenges that we do, or
gatherings that we do.
And we create this world wherethe ultimate goal is to create a
world where people don't wannaleave.
And it does take you back tothat our parents' generation, I
(09:52):
think where people would starttheir careers in the fifties and
sixties and early seventies,and.
And you would do so with thisintention of this is where my
career is gonna be.
I'm not gonna quit in two years.
And so that's how I, and my dadbeing a tenured professor,
that's how I was brought up.
He never ever left his job.
(10:14):
And so that was my world.
And very different from theworld today where folks wanna
stay for a couple years and thenmove on.
So we have to learn to celebratethat and embrace that reality.
But also let folks know, I'mgetting off on a tangent here,
but get, let folks know thatthis is a great place to stay.
And we'll make it fun and andthe ideas can come from
(10:37):
anywhere.
Rachel Humphrey (10:37):
Rod, I didn't know we had that in common.
My father was also a tenuredprofessor for 55 years at the
same college in New England, andI didn't know it any other way
when I left school as well.
I always love to share with ouraudience why someone was a
particular interest to me toinvite.
'cause as you just said, how youlike to learn through podcasts.
(10:58):
I like to share people's lifejourneys and insights.
Through the podcast and you hadreached out to me and said, Hey,
I can see that you areadvocating for greater
representation of women in theindustry and it is something
that we share in common.
I wanted to read the quotesspecifically because I was very
impressed by it, and I reachedout to you about it.
Your bio says.
(11:20):
As an openly gay Latino seniorexecutive, rod strongly believes
in fostering a welcome,welcoming workplace for all.
And I was really taken by thatbecause not only the focus on
culture, which is so importantin our leadership nowadays, but
also in representation.
And I was wondering if you couldshare a little bit about that
(11:42):
importance for you and is thatalso part of your evolving
leadership journey or has thatbeen with you from the
beginning?
Rod Clough (11:50):
Yeah.
It's been with me a from thebeginning.
I did grow up very much in awhite world.
Boulder, Colorado is not adiverse place.
But it was a loving city and awelcoming city.
It wasn't really until I got toCornell, where in Ethan, Cornell
in itself is not highly diverse,but it was certainly more
(12:12):
diverse than Boulder.
And I was exposed to all sortsof newness that I had never seen
before, and it was wonderful.
And I myself, back in the dayyou didn't really come out when
you were a kid like they dotoday.
So I didn't come out until I wasnearly 30.
And at that point I was in, atHVS and in, back in the Boulder
(12:36):
office before I launched my owndivision, right before I
launched my own division.
And the leader of the Boulderoffice at the time.
And the employees in the Boulderoffice were.
Amazing.
And like most of my closestfriends when I came out it
there, it just wasn't anysurprise.
It was like, okay, thank God hefinally came out.
But it was that.
(12:56):
And then a couple years later,me launching my own division and
also the founder of the companyand the Rushmore family.
Being very welcoming of e ofall.
They set a great culture fromthe get go.
Their second office ever wasco-owned and led by a woman,
Suzanne Mellon, who'sextraordinary in her own right.
(13:16):
And she's been
Rachel Humphrey (13:17):
a guest on the podcast as well.
Rod Clough (13:18):
Okay, great.
Suzanne's amazing and so I wasvery.
I did the work early on to bevery confident and proud of who
I was and what I represented it,what I represented it in my
orientation and also and with myskin color.
And I wanted to, and I knewothers weren't quite as, didn't
(13:42):
have that upbringing that I hadthat was so positive.
I did have my negative momentsin there, but they didn't
really.
Frame who I was.
There was a lot of positivitysurrounding that and I wanted to
be out and celebrate it from theget go.
What's happened, interestinglyenough over the course of the
past five years is that I have,and through the reading I've
(14:05):
done and listening that I'vedone and conversations that I've
had, is I've, I have evolved andI am very proud of who I am, but
I'm also equally.
Proud of and respectful of whateverybody else is because
everybody is different and comesfrom their own unique group and
(14:28):
they have their own challengesand identities that they come
with.
So they're all welcome too.
So my cisgender white men thatare who they are in every way
are.
If you think about it they'rejust as different as everybody
else's.
Like they have their own uniqueaspects and I hope, and I've
(14:53):
engendered a culture where theyknow that they're just as
welcome as my trans staff are,or as my.
My conservative Christian staffare versus my agnostic staff
are, or atheists.
It, it is what it is.
Like we're all so different whenyou get to building these teams.
(15:15):
You just want, we wanna focus onthe work and we want to focus on
funding our passion and workinghard, but we want to do so in a
place where we know we're gonnabe safe.
And and that's really what,that's really what I believe in.
And so by me just coming out andsaying this is who I am, I wanna
just put that out there, that Ifeel safe here.
(15:37):
And so you too should feel safe.
Rachel Humphrey (15:39):
It's really incredible and I'm very
appreciative for your sharing itwith us as part of your journey
and as part of your leadershipas well.
When we talk aboutrepresentation, one other aspect
of that, certainly, and you andI have talked about this, is.
Representation across industrystages as industry leaders.
If most of our industry'sleadership maybe fits into one
(16:03):
either gender description orrace or ethnicity description,
how do we make sure thatrepresentation that you are
experiencing with your companyis reflected across our stages?
I'm curious in public speaking,because you do a lot of it,
whether it's at conferences orpodcasts or other things, if
that's something you've alwaysbeen comfortable with, do you
have.
Process that you implementbefore you're going to take the
(16:26):
stage.
Any advice you would have asyou're bringing up the next
generation of speakers at HVSthat you impart on them?
Rod Clough (16:33):
Sure.
So it, it really wasn't.
Something I did very much.
It's a new, it's a new musclefor me.
I've grown up with a bit ofimposter syndrome, I think is
the right saying where I havesurrounded myself always with
even back, gosh to when I was ingrade school.
(16:54):
I would always find the smarterkid in class and I would become
friends with them.
I did it all through Cornell.
I just would, I would do thatand then they would inspire me
and really push me, and I wouldwanna excel as much as they,
they were excelling.
And so too, here at HVSI, Iwould surround myself with the
(17:15):
best, but.
But by doing that, it's a littlebit daunting because you wanna
take the stage, but you're like,but I'm not quite the smartest
person here, so let me have thesmartest person take the stage.
And so for the first 20 to 25years of my career, really 25
years of my career, I didn'ttake the stage because there was
(17:35):
always somebody in my mind.
That I thought was a little bitsmarter and a little bit better
than me.
I had to completely change my,the way I was thinking about
public speaking and and.
And embrace and realize that, Iam smart enough and I can take
the stage and I would take thestage at my company events and I
(17:57):
would lead them and people, Iwould get the entire ballroom
laughing and they, I wouldfinish the day at my annual
summits and people would just belike, rod, you've got, not to
toot my own horn, but they'd belike lying gift on stage.
And you made that so much funand you connected with
everybody.
Why aren't you doing this morein, in an industry ballroom?
(18:19):
And so I finally did, I'm like,you know what?
I love being on stage.
So let me lean into this.
And then, this is only justrecently where I realized I I'm
beginning to realize that more.
It doesn't always just have tobe the same two or three people
speaking at a company, and thatit can be everybody at all
(18:40):
levels, because we're all sosmart at this.
And everybody has a story totell.
So I did, I've been working onit.
I've been, I have been trainingI took a class immersive
storytelling, which you, whichis a fantastic class taught by
Ali Hoit and Carter Wilson.
I did that.
I through, through that class,really.
(19:01):
And other things that I've takenon and other teachings I've
taken on the importance ofpracticing in advance.
I, some are even saying, you,you should practice a a speech
15 or 20 times before you giveit.
That takes a lot of time whenit's an hour long speech.
So I don't, I'm not quite atthat level yet but the
(19:22):
importance of practicingrecording yourself listening
back, planning everything out.
It's really a big deal and itdoes make a big difference.
My rule when I take the stage inaddition to practicing and
making sure that I'm ready to goeven if I know the content, like
you still need to practice, but,is to I desperately want to the
(19:44):
room to chuckle.
They don't need to do a bellylaugh, but I want a chuckle at
some point during the speech.
And then I'd love, this has onlyhappened a couple times, but if
I can get somebody at the end ofthe conference when they're.
Recapping the highlights of theconference.
(20:04):
If one of those highlights couldbe me that's always a feel good
love that it means that, I madean impression because the last
thing you want to do.
Is b just another one of thevery smart and brilliant
conference speakers, but theones where you're like, okay, I
can't wait to, for, to get ontothe next speaker.
This person is just notthrilling me.
(20:26):
And so a lot of that does goback to storytelling.
What story are you telling?
How are you connecting with theaudience?
How are you making it fun andinteresting?
And then, yes, throwing in thedata and the insight along the
way but make it fun.
Rachel Humphrey (20:40):
I love the intentionality that you are
approaching it with though, withthe goals in mind, with the
practice investing in yourselfto get it right.
I also liked what you said aboutyour own imposter syndrome
being.
A hindrance to your publicspeaking, but listening to the
voices of others who are like,you should be doing this more.
And sometimes I find that if Ilet my support system's voices
(21:02):
be louder than my own, thengreat things can happen after
that.
I wanna switch gears for asecond to building a great team,
because you have talked aboutbringing leaders along who then
you allow to lead.
You've talked about.
Having this team around you.
As far as the public speakinggoes, having a culture where you
want people to feel safe whenyou're actually interviewing,
(21:24):
when you are looking to expandyour team, is there an it factor
that you're looking for?
Is there, are there traits,common traits that you found
like, my best hires have kind ofthese things in common.
What are you looking at whenyou're trying to make those
important decisions?
Rod Clough (21:40):
So that's a tough one for me, to be honest.
The, we have a re a rigoroushiring process where folks
initially have to answer somescreening questions and then
have a screening interview, andthen we do a an exam where folks
have to do a lot of writing andnumerical work and pass the exam
(22:03):
with a high score.
And then once that's done, we doa day in the life.
And we bring somebody intotheir, the office that they're
gonna be in, and they spend agood part of a day with us.
Going to lunch, hanging out,looking at what we're doing a
couple things to help us outthat day and just to see if, see
how it's gonna go.
But then beyond that, likethat's all we can really do.
(22:25):
We, depending on how all thatgoes, we will hire somebody and.
And usually it works out.
But, every now and then it, itjust doesn't.
And so for us it's more of atime will tell kind of thing.
We do hire I think from the getgo but even in our last hiring
class, we had.
Five, or six people start andtwo of them, this was back in
(22:51):
like March and two of them havemoved on.
It just didn't end up being agood fit.
I will say though, over time, ifpeople stay with it and they
love the work and they love theculture, and then they wanna
move into that leadership rolewe do a good job of at embracing
that and helping people alongthat path.
Rachel Humphrey (23:11):
I think it's a good recognition that not every
fit is a great fit, though.
You're right.
You can have a great hire and itnot be a right fit and vice
versa.
I could talk with you all daylong and we're gonna end up
running out time.
So I'm gonna do a couple ofrapid fire ones with you.
There's a.
Kind of a renewed interest rightnow, especially for me, but in
self-care and wellness andprobably in a lot of the folks
(23:32):
that are joining your team.
I'm curious if you have aself-care or wellness journey,
if you have somenon-negotiables.
Are you, do you do a good job oftaking care of yourself in this
demanding role?
And what insight or advice wouldyou give to some of our rising
leaders who might be strugglingto find that balance between
establishing a career and takingcare of themselves?
Rod Clough (23:55):
Yeah, I love this question.
I am a huge believer in wellnessboth education wise and
execution wise.
I had the busiest month of mylast five years, this last month
because we landed a hugeengagement and going into that,
I just knew I'm gonna, I'm gonnakeep my fitness going.
(24:17):
I've got.
I go to the gym every morning tonot every morning, but four days
out of the week I'll go to thegym for weightlifting, but every
day I go walking and I walk foran hour each day, and it's
usually my podcast hour.
I'll listen to a few of myfavorite podcasts or a book.
(24:38):
I've got a walking playlist thatI have or I'll schedule.
I go at a pretty good pace, butI can do some phone calls on, on
my walks as well.
So I normally start my daybetween five and 6:00 AM'cause
I'm in Colorado and it's, it'searly to rise here in Colorado
when you live west of New York.
And then by nine or 10 o'clockin the morning, I'm ready for a
(25:01):
break.
So I'll do that.
And then that is married with avery.
Careful regimen of eating for meand drinking a lot of water no
soda.
Focusing on my sleep, makingsure that I'm in bed every night
by 9:00 PM I wake up early butI'm to bed early as well.
And we've got a wellnesscommittee at HBS.
(25:22):
We do wellness challengesthrough well able we really we
give everybody a water, Tumblr.
We, I share my stories ofwellness and my staff see that
I'm prioritizing wellness.
I'm on Strava.
They can join me on Strava, theycan see where I'm working out,
where I'm walking every day.
And people love that.
They love knowing that if thepresident's doing it, and the
(25:44):
president's stepping away fromhis desk for an hour to go
walking.
Maybe I can too.
I love
Rachel Humphrey (25:50):
the modeling.
That's so important.
I love that you have thenon-negotiables of the walking
in the gym.
Yeah.
And then hydration and otherthings.
Sleep is the one that stillalludes me, but I'm trying to
get better at it.
But I love modeling it and forother people to know that's what
you're doing and that it's okay.
'cause it really.
Forces the importance of it.
One of my favorite questionsalways to ask because I think we
(26:13):
are all works in progress and weare all continuing to evolve as
people, as careerists, what itmay be is what advice we would
give to our younger self.
So I'm curious, rad, as you sithere today and you think back,
whether it be to that boy in thecatering department or to you're
taking off or graduating fromCornell.
What would you tell 18 or21-year-old Rod, either about
(26:35):
how things have turned out foryou or maybe something that you
wish you knew then that you knowtoday?
Rod Clough (26:40):
Oh gosh, there's a lot.
I think I wouldn't, I probablywouldn't have jumped so head
over heels into my firstrelationship because it took me
a minute to find my currenthusband and we always think of
oh my gosh, what if we had foundourselves a little earlier in
life?
But that's, that's one thing.
I didn't embrace fitness untillater on in my life and I love
(27:01):
it and I wish I had done that inmy twenties.
And more reading.
I'm just, like I said, I'm alistener, but, and we didn't, I
don't think we, there wasn'treally a lot of books on tape
back then and in the nineties,but but more reading.
More reading.
I really push with my staff to,we have a dashboard online that
pops up on your screen at thebeginning of your day.
(27:23):
And you put, you can uploadyour, you're meant to upload a y
photo and it sits at the topright hand corner of your
screen.
And then.
Through our Franklin Coveytraining, which we've done a lot
of and continue to we all haveour big rocks that you're
supposed to be spending time onthe stuff that matters and it's
important.
So you have your y photo andthose big rocks and it's all
(27:45):
about getting out of thewhirlwind of the work and
understanding that the work thatwe're doing at HVS is funding
our passion.
And I wish I would have donethat more as a kid.
Of what is my passion?
And I don't have to just beworking all the time.
Like I can actually be spendingmore of these younger years
having just a little bit morefun.
(28:07):
I think I would've told myyounger self, it's all gonna be
okay.
You can take some of that money.
Instead of socking away andsaving it, which saving is good,
but maybe have a little bit morefun.
I don't think I had enough fun.
Rachel Humphrey (28:21):
I love that.
I like the, everything will beokay.
I feel like that's what I usedto my answer to.
This used to be the everythingwill be okay.
Now it's more focused on takingcare of yourself as part of.
Daily routine, but I love thateverything will be okay.
As we sit here today, thinkingabout the motto of its personal
stories, which is empoweringpersonal success, is there any
(28:44):
final advice that you wouldleave our audience with?
Rod Clough (28:49):
I think for personal success, and if I were to just
be able to burrow intosomebody's soul and to just.
Tell them really how, what itmeans is to, like I said, just
to really understand what thatbigger picture goal is for you
(29:11):
and to really structure time andeffort around how does that look
in your life and what are youdoing?
Time is just, I, maybe thishappens once you turn 50, I'm
not sure.
But for me, when I turned 50,all of a sudden time started
moving a lot faster than when Iwas in my thirties and forties.
(29:33):
And I imagine when I turn 60it's gonna move even faster.
And I think just taking chargeof that understanding that time
is moving quickly and it's ourmost valuable resource.
And how are you using it?
What are you doing?
We put all this planning intoour work.
How are we gonna complete thisassignment and how are we gonna
get this out to the client?
(29:55):
Why aren't we doing that withour lives?
We could be doing, I think, sucha better job of that.
So that's my advice.
Rachel Humphrey (30:02):
That's great advice.
Rod, I'm so excited that youjoined me today, shared more
about your personal journey,some of the things that you've
learned along the way.
I'm really grateful to have youjoin the podcast today.
So thank you very much for doingso.
Rod Clough (30:16):
It's been my pleasure.
Thank
Rachel Humphrey (30:18):
you very much and to your audience, we hope
you've enjoyed my time todaywith Rod.
You can visitover@itspersonalstories.com.
If you are out walking on yourpod and you wanna be listening
to podcasts, we have about 250interviews with our industry's
most impactful leaders.
We hope you'll check them outthere.
But Rod, thank you very muchagain and thank you for your
leadership.
Rod Clough (30:38):
Thank you.
I.
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