April 13, 2025 • 41 mins
Dorothy Dowling interviews Ryan Mann from McKinsey & Company in the 'It's Personal Stories' podcast. Ryan shares his career journey, the pivotal role of COVID in his professional life, and the importance of asking the right questions in consulting. He discusses leadership in consulting, time management, nurturing talent, and future disruptions in the hospitality industry. Ryan emphasizes core skills like synthesis, problem breakdown, and differentiating between facts and insights. He concludes with advice on self-reflection and focusing on learning, not just achieving titles.
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Dorothy Dowling (00:05):
Greetings.
I am Dorothy Dowling and welcometo its Personal Stories, a
hospitality podcast thathighlights the inspiring
journeys of leaders in thehospitality industry.
We are a nonprofit organizationdedicated to personal
empowerment.
I am delighted to welcome RyanMann, partner at McKinsey and
Company.
Ryan, it is such an honor tohave you with us today.
Ryan Mann (00:28):
Thank you Dorothy.
It's an honor to be with youtoday.
Dorothy Dowling (00:32):
So Ryan, we always like to start our
interview talking about ourguests career journey.
So I'm hoping you would sharewith our audience what inspired
you to pursue a career inconsulting and what led you to
focus on the hospitality sector.
Ryan Mann (00:47):
Absolutely.
you and I have something veryimportant in common.
We're both Canadians.
You grew up in Ontario.
I grew up in Montreal, Quebec.
Despite my love for hockey,after graduating from McGill
with a degree in marketing, Imoved as far away from the cold
as I possibly could.
And I took a job in Los Angeles,in, in brand and advertising
(01:07):
research.
I enjoyed the job.
I loved living in la.
Love the beach, love thesummertime weather.
But after five or so years Ifound myself itching for
something new.
So I went to business school inChicago at Northwestern.
And that's where I learned moreabout consulting and decided to
give it a try.
So I joined McKinsey about adecade ago after completing a
(01:29):
summer internship with the firm.
And when I started at McKinsey,I like, like most first year
consultants, had no idea what Iwanted to do.
I thought I'd try a fewindustries and a few functions
before settling on a major, andI did just that in my first
year.
So I did a project in banking.
I did a project in lifereinsurance of all topics.
(01:50):
A fun study for a largeretailer.
I was having fun.
I was working long hourstraveling across the country,
living out of a suitcase, but.
As I was starting to feel like Iwas getting the hang of
consulting, I didn't, I stillhadn't found the spark that
would give me that extra jolt ofenergy and passion.
I soon found it though, in, inhotels.
So in my third year at McKinsey,I had the privilege of
(02:13):
partnering with an iconic hotelchain on a digital
transformation, and it waseye-opening for me.
I finally felt like I had landedon my passion.
I found the hospitality sector.
It was just beautifully complex.
Certainly not for the faint ofheart, but I loved it.
It had a language that franklyjust spoke to me.
Hotels play such an importantrole in our lives.
(02:35):
They care for us.
They house us at our very bestmoments in celebrations,
sometimes at are most vulnerablemoments.
And most importantly, though,the industry attracts what I
found to be the perfectintersection of smart and kind
people.
And these were people that Iwanted to be around.
I wanted to learn from them andI wanted to help them, make them
as successful as possible.
(02:57):
So I felt like I had finallytruly found my home.
At the time, McKinsey actuallyhad only a small hotel practice,
and so I decided to go all in onthe sector and help grow it by
building, world class knowledgeand insights and recruiting some
of our best people to it.
And.
Today I'm proud that our hotelsector and our travel sector
more broadly, it's one of ourfastest growing worldwide and
(03:20):
one that attracts our very besttalent to our engagements.
Dorothy Dowling (03:24):
There's a couple things that you said
there, Ryan.
What always has attracted me tothe industry is just the sense
of the inventory beingperishable.
So it creates a sense of urgencyand, just a level of
prioritizing in terms of makingdecisions.
I, but I do love what you saidabout the people in our industry
'cause I do think they're trulyspecial and I think you are one
(03:44):
of those special people.
So I'm really grateful thatyou're part of our industry.
Thank you.
I'm just wondering if you cantalk a little bit about defining
moments.
I know you talked a little bitabout your going back to school
and that approach that you tookat McKinsey, but were there some
pivotal moments that reallydrove some of your career
decisioning?
Ryan Mann (04:03):
Yeah, so look like many of my generation, I have to
point to Covid as a careerdefiner.
O overnight all of my clientwork disappeared.
And on a personal level, Icouldn't fly home to see my
parents.
My now wife and I had to cancelour wedding after delaying it
three times, and, of coursethere was a global pandemic
going on, so you had to dealwith that and it's very scary.
(04:26):
But through the darkness, I'dsay there were many moments that
shaped me both personally andprofessionally.
So with no client work at all Iraised my hand to lead a team
focused on travel's, response toCovid.
You've gotta think back andremember, Dorothy, at the time,
the world was turning upsidedown every day.
Nobody knew what to make of it.
And at McKinsey, our think tank,the McKinsey Global Institute.
(04:48):
Was working around the clockseven days a week to collect as
much data as possible.
So what I did is I took whatthey were doing took those
inputs, turned them intoinsights for the travel
industry.
I had a team.
We wrote articles, we publishedvideos.
We held weekly webinars to getas much info as we possibly
could into the hands of ourbeloved travel industry.
(05:09):
Every week we had about 500 orso organizations join us on
these webinars, and it washumbling to be able to.
Help folks makes even theslightest bit of sense out of
the world at the time.
We did this for nine months.
And through this effort, I'llsay I, I learned the true power
of global collaboration as wellas the power of truly just
(05:30):
service, right?
So in a crisis, run toward thefire, do what you can to help no
matter how big or small acontribution you think you're
making.
In my case, it was just tryingto get some information out
about our industry.
Dorothy Dowling (05:43):
That's an incredible story, Ryan, and I do
think that Covid reallyredefined many of us.
And I do think that nature of uscollaborating and trying to
support each other through someof the challenges as well as
share information was I.
W was defining for many.
And I've always respectedMcKinsey because you do make an
investment in the industry andtrying to enable all of us to be
(06:05):
smarter and better informed.
But I do think the work that youdid through Covid was
extraordinary.
So I thank you for taking thatand for helping all of us unpack
what data was out there and.
Also just be a friend and amentor to many as we all
struggled through some of thepersonal and professional
challenges that we all facedduring that time.
(06:25):
Absolutely.
So I'm wondering if you can talka little bit about great
leadership and what it lookslike in consulting, because
obviously you have to be on theforefront of change.
You've gotta be looking andadapting and really offering a
lot of strategic thinking toyour clients, and you're
constantly being tested in thatarena.
So I'm hoping you might offerthings to our audience about how
(06:47):
you approach all of thatchallenge.
Ryan Mann (06:50):
I remember in my interview for McKenzie, my
interviewer asked me a similarquestion and I replied with this
great story that I hadmeticulously prepared for my
prior roles in marketingresearch.
And the story was about how Ihad to show leadership on my
team when the team just wasn'tfunctioning very well.
And I, as the manager had tomake some tough calls.
And I'll actually never forgetthe feedback my interviewer gave
(07:11):
me.
She said that's an interestingstory.
But it's the wrong story.
I.
For consulting because in yourprior role, your team had to
listen to you.
You were the boss.
But in consulting, nobody has tolisten to you.
You're nobody's boss.
Definitely not your client'sbosses, and that means they
don't have to listen to you atall.
So you've gotta find other waysto be effective here.
I, I hadn't even been offeredthe job when I received that
(07:34):
feedback, but it totally shapedthe way I think about leadership
and consulting.
In some ways I think of my jobas a catalyst, whether that's to
make a decision to transform anorganization to build a new
business.
And I can't do this by tellinganyone what to do.
I have to instead come up withan independent perspective of
the answer, build a case for itwith facts, perspectives,
(07:54):
scenarios, leadership alignment.
And I've actually found that asI've grown as a partner in
consulting, my leadership styleshifted away from always have to
have the answer to trying to askthe right question.
And to me, I think this is themost interesting part of what I
get to do every day.
And it's a large part of what'skept me here for a decade.
Dorothy Dowling (08:17):
Okay, I'm gonna unpack that a little bit more,
but I do think that wholeelement of continuing to
challenge and offer questions iscritically important in terms of
really getting to what problemis trying to be solved for, and
then also continuing to iterateon some of those solutions,
which I know McKenzie hasincredible discipline in terms
(08:38):
of.
Really solving for their clientsand supporting their client's
problems.
I'm wondering if I can move onand talk a little bit about time
management and priority setting,because we both know that I.
Consulting is notoriouslydemanding.
It has tremendous amounts oftravel, and you're often in an
(09:00):
environment where you are on avirtual stage where people are
listening to you.
You have to be speaking withauthority and from a position of
knowledge.
I would love to hear how youpersonally manage all those time
demands and you set prioritieswhen everything that's on your
plate feels urgent.
Ryan Mann (09:17):
Yeah, it's a great question.
So look at this point in mycareer, a, after having done it
for about a decade, I generallyhave a good sense of how long
most things on my plate willtake me to do.
And I also schedule my days tothe minute so I know exactly how
much time I have.
Now inevitably demand is higherthan supply, and I solve this
(09:37):
through my network of trustedcolleagues.
Not a day goes by when I don'tmake an introduction to a
colleague who's better suited tomeet a client, answer a
question, write a report.
I.
I am very fortunate, I think, towork with some of the most
talented and passionate peoplein the world.
And so I feel very good aboutsaying things like, look I'd
love to do this, but let meintroduce you to Melinda or Alex
(10:01):
or Daniel or Christian.
I have complete trust in themand I know they'll absolutely
knock this out of the park.
And so that I think has helpedme have leverage over time, gain
control over my calendar.
Dorothy Dowling (10:13):
I think that's really great advice and you do
have an, a remarkable team ofpeers as well as teammates that
you can bring into solving thosekinds of challenges.
Ryan but I'd like to hear alittle bit more in terms of the
client deliverables, becauseoften they're hiring you.
I know how much global travelyou're doing.
And I know the kinds ofchallenges that people are
(10:35):
asking for your assistance with.
So I would love to hear, and Iknow you just became a new dad
not too long ago and you gotmarried recently, so I would
love to hear how you manage thatwork life pharmacy, harmony, and
also role model that for yourteam.
Ryan Mann (10:53):
Look, this is a bit of a hot take, Dorothy but I
don't aim for, I don't aim forbalance.
Balance implies some degree ofeven split across personal and
work and I frankly just don'tthink that's attainable.
Not in consulting and not inmost jobs, in careers these
days.
It's funny actually how thiscell phone, which was supposed
to free us from the oppressivelandline, which required you to
(11:14):
sit by your phone if you wereexpecting an important call,
it's actually made us less freein some sense.
Because now work is always justa glance away, seven days a
week, 24 hours a day, especiallywith a global mandate.
In that context, finding momentsof sanity is absolutely critical
for me to be able to do the deepthinking that I need to do to be
effective in my role.
(11:35):
I.
If I'm just completing tasks allday I can't do what you
described and speak about thingsand have a perspective.
So for me, these moments areoften when my flight's taking
off.
When I'm ironing my clothes forthe day, when I'm showering, I
just try and find those pocketsof time.
And then the other thing thatkeeps me grounded and you
mentioned him, it's my 16 monthold son, Noah.
(11:56):
And holding him in my arms.
It's the best.
And he puts everything intoperspective.
And I've absolutely been late tomeetings because I've spent an
extra five minutes snugglingwith him.
And to be honest, I neitherregret this, nor do I apologize
for it.
It's what makes it all worth it.
Dorothy Dowling (12:11):
Yeah, that's a beautiful story and Noah is a
beautiful boy.
Ryan and I think just actuallyallowing for that kind of
humanity and giving peoplepermission to, take those
moments.
Because I do think it restoresour soul as well as I do think
those moments of reflectionallow us to bring much more.
Meaningful thought to problemsthat we're trying to support
(12:32):
others with.
So thank you for that.
And I do agree about yourthought process on work-life
balance.
That's why I think it's soimportant that we find work
that's fulfilling because thenwork doesn't really seem like
work.
So thank you for that.
Thank you.
So I know you talked earlierabout this journey and when you
went through the interviewprocess and unpacking problems
(12:54):
with clients really starts withlistening and really honing in
on the problem that you'retrying to solve.
But I'd love to hear how youactively listen and what advice
do you have for leaders that arelistening to you today in terms
of how do you become a betterlistener?
Ryan Mann (13:11):
Yeah.
Look, I think Dorothy'seffective problem solving you,
you're spot on, starts withactive listening.
And I think the active listeningrequires at least two mindsets.
The first is respect andhumility.
Not to start with thecounterfactual, but.
I find that most people whodon't actively listen have their
talking points or their answersalready in their heads, and
(13:34):
they're just waiting for you tostop talking so that they could
make their point.
And active listening isdifferent.
It requires you to want to learnfrom the person you're engaging
with.
It's not about making sure yourideas get out there.
It's about collectively gettingto even stronger ideas together.
That's the first.
I think the second is curiosity.
(13:54):
I think the best activelisteners are also genuinely
curious people.
They care to understand how youthink.
I.
It.
Why you think that way?
Your motivations.
Do, Dorothy you probablyremember the late night wars of
the nineties, right?
So Leno versus Letterman andLeno always won in the ratings,
but I think True comedy fans allgenerally prefer Letterman.
(14:15):
At least that's my opinion.
And it's because.
While Leno's interviews oftenfollowed a script, one question
after the next, Letterman wouldreally get into the trenches
with his guests and exploreideas together.
And that sometimes led to somepretty weird interviews, but
also sometimes led to comedygold.
And so Letterman ceiling wasmuch higher.
And I think the same is true inproblem solving.
(14:37):
You've gotta get into thetrenches, you've gotta ask
questions, you've gotta listencarefully and build together.
That's where the magic happens.
Dorothy Dowling (14:46):
I think that leads me to this next question
because earlier you spoke aboutthe investment that McKinsey
makes in terms of educatingothers and providing really
great thought leadership interms of how we can continue to
tap our game.
And I.
I've always loved a lot of theMcKinsey assets that I've been
able to buy over the years.
And this whole concept of yourstructured thinking approach and
(15:09):
how you think about mutuallyexclusive collective exhaustive
approaches when you'reapproaching complicated
problems.
I.
I'm just wondering if you canspeak a little bit about that
thought leadership that you'veoffered to so many of us and
what that means in terms of yourconsulting efforts.
Ryan Mann (15:26):
Yeah.
L let me talk about mutuallyexclusive, collectively
exhaustive, which actuallylittle known fact, even though
most people pronounce it.
Mei, myself included, by theway, it's actually according to
the person who pended pronouncedme, like Greece okay.
So thank you.
The concept actually stems froma classic McKinsey framework,
which we call the PyramidPrinciple.
(15:47):
And it was codified by BarbaraPinto, who was our firm's first
female MBA professional hire.
And in her role, like mostpartners, she was spending a lot
of time editing documents andshe found herself constantly
reorganizing the team's ideasinto a structure that looked a
lot like a pyramid.
And she developed that into atool.
(16:07):
So it's a tool to structure yourthoughts.
At the top of the pyramid is themain recommendation or the idea
under that are the arguments.
And then under that are thesupporting insights and
conclusions.
And each point above has to be asummary of those below'cause
it's derived from them.
And as Barbara would say it, youcan't derive an idea from a
(16:30):
grouping.
Unless the ideas in the groupingare logically the same and in
logical order.
So this concept requires thatthose groups of ideas are Missy
divided pieces that are mutuallyexclusive of each other and
collectively exhaustive in termsof the whole.
And then on our teams, thesepieces then often turn into the
work streams that we assign toour consultants.
(16:53):
In our team, problem solvings,we consistently ask each other.
Is this answer truly Mei?
Is this framework, is this listtruly Mei?
Are we missing something?
Is there overlap?
And I'll tell you, as a youngconsultant, there was no worse
day.
And when a partner came into theroom, looked at your analysis
and tells you didn't nail it,this isn't right, you've gotta
scrap it.
(17:13):
'cause it's not Macy.
Dorothy Dowling (17:16):
So I'm glad you pronounced it for me'cause I
have said maci for a while andthat was one of the reasons why
I avoided it until you said it.
But I do think that disciplineapproach to thinking and really
continuing to iterate on that issomething our audience can take
back.
And for those people that arelistening, McKinsey has a lot of
resource tools that arepublished that you can buy on
(17:36):
Amazon or other places.
And you can also subscribeobviously to a lot of.
The McKinsey newsletters thatyou referenced earlier, Ryan,
but I do think they make usbetter leaders regardless of
whether we're consulting or not,in terms of really thinking
through problem solving at amuch more strategic level.
So I appreciate you talkingabout that pyramid and how I.
(17:58):
The relatability of all of thosethings flow up to the
recommendation.
Thank you.
I wanna go back to questions ifI may, because we talked about
how important that is aboutasking the right questions.
So I'm really hoping you canhone in and help us a little bit
about how you continue toiterate on asking those
strategic questions before youjump into the solution or the
(18:21):
recommendation.
Ryan Mann (18:22):
Yeah, I can't emphasize how important it is to
ask the right questions.
The least successful projectsI've been a part of have
actually all had the sameproblem in common.
We jumped right into solutioningbefore making sure we were
asking the right questions.
My teams will spend anuncomfortable amount of time
upfront with our clientsdefining the problem, and it's
(18:45):
actually absolutely normal forus to end up asking a different
question.
And the one we started with.
So lemme give you a recentexample.
I was working on an operationstudy with a client recently,
and the exam question they askedus was how to make a particular
process more effective.
And, we thought about it and wecreated all of our trees and
started to think about how wewould solve this.
(19:05):
But as we dug into it weactually took a step back and
reframed the question and saidmaybe a, an interesting thought
experiment is, does this processneed to even exist?
And surprisingly because thiscompany had been doing this
process for 30 years, the answeractually turned out to be no.
And so we saved months of work,millions of dollars just by
(19:27):
asking the right question.
Dorothy Dowling (19:31):
I'm thinking about the hospitalities that
leaders that are on this calltoday.
Obviously we're facing, again, alot of uncertainty and
volatility in terms of what'sgoing on in the macro
environment and whether we'regonna be facing any kind of
economic downturn.
I'm just wondering what kind ofadvice you might give to
hospitalities leaders about howdo they make decisions in highly
(19:54):
uncertain times.
Ryan Mann (19:56):
Yeah, the world we live in is definitely
increasingly uncertain and evenvolatile.
And and this environment,business leaders have to adapt.
There's no choice.
I think the answer to yourquestion, Dorothy, is to get
really specific about the typeof uncertainty you're facing.
And I actually usually thinkabout three types of
uncertainty.
So in, in the first, there's aclear enough view of the future,
(20:17):
not exactly sure, but you'repretty sure what it's gonna be.
And imagine predicting RevPARfor the next quarter, right?
There still some uncertainty.
That uncertainty probablywouldn't change the answer of
what you would go do.
And so in those situations wherethere's a clear enough view of
the future, I generallyencourage my clients to develop
a single forecast for thosesituations.
(20:39):
In the second, there are smallnumber of discreet alternative
futures that are possible.
So imagine, the impact ofpotential travel bans on your
hotel.
It's impossible or foolish tobet on just one scenario in that
situation.
So my advice to clients in thesesituations is to establish
probabilities and figure outwhat parts of your strategy
(21:00):
would need to change dependingon which alternatives comes to
pass.
And, super important here is tofigure out what are the early
markers that will tell youwhether you're headed toward one
alternative versus another.
So being early, ideally first tonotice these that helps you move
faster than your competitors andget ahead of whatever future is
(21:21):
unfolding.
That's the second.
The third is where there's atrue range of potential futures
that are possible.
Now there are a limited numberof key variables that define
that range, but the actualoutcome could lie, frankly,
anywhere within it.
And there aren't any naturaldiscreet scenarios within that.
So for hotels, imagine, a chainintroducing a new brand in a new
(21:43):
chain scale.
It could grow anywhere from zeroto a hundred to 200 hotels in
the next two years, but therearen't any obvious scenarios
within that range.
And so here what I recommend toclients is to develop.
Two to three scenarios, no morewithin that range, each with
distinct and unique implicationsfor what you would go do if
(22:03):
they're too similar.
You don't need to waste timecreating that scenario.
And these scenarios should beprobable.
But they won't rep, they won'trepresent all of the possible
potential outcomes.
And then what you do is you goback to what you do in that
second type of uncertainty andyou model the implications and
you look out for the markers.
So those are the three types ofscenarios that I tend to look at
(22:24):
in uncertainty.
Dorothy Dowling (22:26):
I I think that's fabulous advice, and I do
think that focusing onprobability and then creating a
disciplined thought plan aroundeach one can power everyone in
terms of.
Reducing the amount ofuncertainty and certainly having
a game plan based on what kindof new information might be
surfacing on a daily or weeklybasis.
So thank you for that.
(22:47):
I wanna go back to a book thathas been pretty instrumental to
me, which is in McKinsey Way,and I love that book.
I share it with many because itreally helped me frame up some
of my communication approachesand.
I do love the rule of three.
That's part of it, and I'm justwondering if you can expand a
little bit on that and why thatis really helpful for
(23:08):
individuals to keep in mind whenthey have a story they wanna
communicate.
Ryan Mann (23:12):
Yeah, it's a great book.
And you actually just heard mename three things it's a good
segue.
So the rule of three essentiallysays that when presenting your
key points, you should presentthem in threes, not in twos or
fours.
So why three?
The reason for three, frankly,is it's as much art as it is
science.
So we found over time that threepoints tend to be more
memorable.
(23:33):
More clear and more confident.
And three, also forces a choicein a way that two doesn't and
four sometimes overwhelms.
And so we landed on three.
For us it's become very naturalto think in threes and to
communicate in threes.
It's not always three, but it'soften three.
And it just sounds better to uswhen it's in threes.
Dorothy Dowling (23:53):
Yeah, no, I really like it and I think it
ties back to that pyramidprinciple too, Ryan, in terms of
just making sure that thenarrative actually ties back to
each one of those points thatyou're making in the rule of
three.
And I do think from an audience.
Point of view, it allows peopleto absorb your information,
manage this expectations aboutwhat's coming.
(24:14):
And then it also, I think, makesit far more memorable.
I'd like to build on that alittle bit because you're an
incredible speaker.
I've had the good fortune ofbeing in the audience several
times and you've been on stage.
So I'd love for you to sharewith the audience about how do
you prepare yourself to deliversuch impactful communications
when you're on stage.
Ryan Mann (24:34):
Yeah.
And as part of my role leadingour hospitality sector I have
the privilege of often speakingat conferences and offsites, and
I always try to do a ton of prepahead of any of these
engagements.
Every day I am compulsivelyreading Skift CoStar,
hospitality today, BTN, otherreligiously.
And I amp that up ahead of anengagement.
I also talk to folks, clients,other partners not just in North
(24:56):
America, but across the globe tohear what they're hearing and
seeing even our own internaltravel buyers to get their
perspectives.
And then I do some real deepthinking to develop my own
perspectives on the points thatI want to convey.
And I often try to convey themin a contrary invoice so you
know, nobody needs another suittelling them that Gen AI has the
(25:16):
potential to transform tripitinerary planning.
That's boring.
It's played out and it's not,frankly, something I feel very
passionate about.
And so I, I look for that kernelof passionate interest'cause I
think the audience will feel it.
And I try to structure myspeeches around those.
So whether it's the future ofmanaged business travel, or why
hotel loyalty needs a revampedor, the opportunity for luxury
(25:39):
hospitality to leapfrog andappeal to a whole new
generation.
These are the topics that, thatI want to bring.
Original thinking too and I feelpassionate about sharing more
broadly.
Dorothy Dowling (25:51):
If I could, I just wanna emphasize a few
points that you made.
One message I heard was just theoutside preparation that you
invest in, making sure thatyou're bringing good content.
Two is just your dailycommitment to staying informed,
and I agree with you on all ofthe various trade pubs that you
just identified in terms ofkeeping us up to speed on.
A lot of what is happening on adaily basis.
(26:14):
But the other piece that Ireally love that you brought
forward, Ryan, is taking acontrarian point of view because
I do think people hearingsomething different is, allows
them to think differently aswell.
That's great advice for ouraudience.
So thank you.
I wonder if we can talk a littlebit about the industry because
the hospitality industry is seenas a traditional industry.
We're tied up in a lot of legacysystems and other kinds of
(26:36):
things that, from a capitalinvestment that I think makes us
much more traditional in ourapproach.
I'm wondering if you can Iidentify for the audience, what
do you think some of the bigdisruptors that are coming in
the next three to five years?
Ryan Mann (26:50):
I'm excited.
I think there are a number ofreally exciting areas to watch,
but I think the first point I'dmake here, Dorothy, is that
whether we're looking threeyears out or 30 years out, I
actually think the core ofhospitality will remain.
It's absolutely true that Gen AIis making waves and making
changes, and it's absolutelytrue that vacation rentals have
boomed over the past 15 years,but hotels are doing fine.
(27:13):
And I think they will continuedoing fine.
A warm smile, a clean room, acomfy bed to rest for the night.
There is no disruption that willupend this.
I bet.
Anything on that?
That said, there are a number ofchanges that, that I am excited
about.
First I think distribution'sgonna shift meaningfully.
It's only a matter of timebefore gen AI engines start to
(27:33):
embed auction elements andbecome the evolution of paid
meta search.
You combine that with the majorchains, investing in their CRSs
to enable things like attributebased selling, and I think we're
gonna see a whole new world ofmerchandising across channels
and distribution going forward.
Dorothy Dowling (27:49):
Yeah, I totally agree.
I think that content andattribute selling and I do think
the way we serve content back toconsumers is going to change
dramatically, and we are goingto have to shift away from some
of the legacy systems that we'vebeen so dependent on and embrace
some of this new technology andpotentially right off some of
those capital investments thathave been made over.
The last few decades.
Ryan Mann (28:10):
It's about time that we invest in some of these and
move forward, right?
We've been merchandising roomsand rates forever.
It's about time we move forward.
Dorothy Dowling (28:17):
Yeah.
And I do think the B2C spacedoes it so much better than the
B2B that we've gotta recognizethat those customers do not live
in discreet places.
That they expect to see the samekind of solution in the business
travel space as they see in theconsumer space.
So it.
Ryan Mann (28:32):
I think in business travel, we'll see a much more
touchless journey.
It'll totally transform thecustomer experience of business
travel.
My business travel profile, whydoesn't it pull in a 360 view of
my preferences, my behavior, myloyalty status?
It should, right?
On the flight side, I think NDCshould finally start delivering
personalized bundles.
(28:53):
We'll see that in the nextcouple of years, we're already
seeing it in pockets.
And then on the lodging side, Ishould be receiving nudges to
select bundled rates thatbenefit me, for example, points
offers.
But these things should alsobenefit my company.
So I think we're gonna see thatgoing forward.
Yeah.
The other thing I'm excitedabout here is, how travel shifts
to cater to the needs and wantsof younger generations in
(29:14):
particular.
It's not just that youngergenerations in survey after
survey tell us how much theylove travel'cause that's true,
but it's also that youngergenerations are about to inherit
I hope you're sitting down forthis Dorothy, but$84 trillion in
the largest wealth transfer inhistory.
So you combine a, a group oftravelers who disproportionately
(29:34):
value vacations now with theability to spend on those
vacations.
And I think our sector is gonnabe supported by some real tail
tailwinds in the near term.
Dorothy Dowling (29:42):
Yeah, I agree.
I totally agree, Ryan, and Ithink keeping those data points
in mind, because the other partthat I also keep in mind is just
the demography shift and thelevel of retirement and
engagement that we have, timeand money that's continuing to
shift in terms of people'sinterest in travel and
investment and experiences.
Ryan Mann (30:02):
Exactly.
I
Dorothy Dowling (30:04):
am wondering if I could speak a little bit with
you more about the commercialleadership evolution, because I
would love to hear how you seethe role of commercial leaders
evolving in hospitality and whatskills will be most successful
for their future success.
Ryan Mann (30:19):
Yeah.
I think commercial leaders haveto be.
The very best collaborators intheir business, their role is
really an integrative one.
They've gotta integratedistribution, marketing brands,
OTAs, care centers, sales,loyalty.
They gotta work with operationsand they've gotta make it all
feel very seamless.
They also increasingly need tofind ways to do more with less,
(30:40):
especially as we head into aperiod of relatively slower
growth.
And I think what that means isfinding ways to use technology
in smart ways so that you canreallocate resources and funds
to areas that woulddisproportionately benefit from
it.
And then I think commercialleaders need to be expert clear
communicators.
As the major chains continue tocollect brands and loyalty
(31:01):
programs lose some of theirshine, right?
The chief commercial officer hasto be able to clearly and
persuasively communicate theirorganization's value prop, what
makes'em unique and worthy ofyour staying and being the voice
of your brand and doing so in aclear and compelling way is
absolutely crucial.
Dorothy Dowling (31:19):
There's a lot to unpack there, but I do think
the two main points that I heardwas just this need to
collaborate across all the linesof business as well as all of
the subject matter experts,Ryan, to really make sure that
we're leveraging the diversityof thought and bringing much
more alignment in terms of a goto market approach.
And I also agree with your pointof view in terms of being a very
(31:40):
clear communicator andunderstanding your value
proposition.
Winning and losing is often.
You have to have your offensivestrategy, you have to have your
defensive strategy, but youalways have to understand the
value proposition that you bringto the customer as well.
I'm wondering if we could talk alittle bit about talent because
I have been extraordinarilyimpressed with some of the
teammates that I know have beennurtured by you.
(32:01):
I would love to hear how youactually take on that
responsibility, developingtalent within McKinsey and
nurturing high performingconsultants.
Ryan Mann (32:11):
I, I look for three things.
Passion, curiosity, andcreativity.
The rest I can teach, but when Ifind someone with passion,
curiosity, and creativity, Iknow I've found a star and I
overinvest to develop thisperson.
Our culture at McKinsey is anapprenticeship culture.
We learn by doing, and so Ibring folks, I support onto my
(32:33):
teams.
I, I carefully give themopportunities to stretch and.
As I've become more senior here,I've also grown much more
comfortable not being the firstvoice in the room.
So often my managers or theassociate partners will lead the
presentation and I'll weigh inor ask questions throughout.
I.
We also have a very strongfeedback culture at McKinsey.
And in truth we probably got abit away from it during Covid
(32:56):
especially when everyone wasjust remote.
But it's definitely back and wedo in the moment feedback.
We also do more structured,regular feedback sessions across
teams and I think feedback hasto go both ways.
I always ask everyone, no matterhow junior or senior for
feedback on my performance andengagement'cause.
I think we always have a lot tolearn, by the way, and that's
not just team members.
That also for me includesclients.
Dorothy Dowling (33:18):
I think that's really great advice and I do
think that structured feedbackis something we can all learn
from because I do think in thisworld of, hybrid work and other
things it's the way we stayconnected to each other and
support each other and reallyhelp with that growth.
And I know everyone isstruggling with talent in terms
of building and nurturing, so Ithink that.
(33:38):
Concept of how to do that wellis something our audience can
really learn from you.
I'd also like to ask about howyou build Future Ready Teams and
how you coach your teammates.
How to build Future Ready Teams.
They're still required todeliver on the consulting and
the short term businessrequirements that you have
within your scope of work.
Ryan Mann (34:00):
Yeah.
In, in some ways you can't have.
You can't get the benefit ofhaving a long-term plan without
delivering short-term results,right?
You gotta earn your way to thatlong-term plan.
So this is critical, and that'strue for organizations.
That's also true for teams.
And I think the piece that oftengets missed is succession
planning.
I.
Having a really strong bench andnurturing that bench is really
(34:22):
important.
I coach my clients to always bethinking about what their team
members in their group should bedoing in two years, not today
what they should be doing in twoyears and what they're doing
today how that'll set them upfor the next role.
When I was a young consultant, Ialways thought if I could make
myself irreplaceable, I'd alwayshave a job.
And now I actually think aboutthis differently.
I wanna make myself replaceableso that I have the time and the
(34:44):
space to focus on the next role.
And I think this is reallyimportant and it's something I
spend a lot of time coaching myclients on.
Dorothy Dowling (34:52):
Again, I think that's very impactful advice,
and I think to have that twoyear vision of what work they
will want someone to be able todo and actually building that
capability with their team isreally important.
So I thank you for that as well.
Ryan.
I'm just wondering for ouraudience of aspiring leaders
that are listening to you, howwould you help them think more
(35:14):
like a consultant?
Ryan Mann (35:16):
I don't know that aspiring hospitality leader
should necessarily think morelike us.
But there are parts of ourtoolkit that I think could
benefit everyone.
For example, a few tricks that Iwould take with me if I were to
return to industry.
So let me give you a few.
One is synthesis.
So summarizing a large number offacts and anecdotes into their
essence.
(35:37):
I often ask my teams, what's theone or two sentence summary and
what are the implications forthe client's business?
I sit in a lot of meetings in myrole as I'm sure you do and your
audience does.
And you can imagine how many ofthem just tend to go on and on
and swirl to the point whereit's hard to know what's been
decided.
And I love when someone raisestheir hand at that point and
(36:00):
says something like, let me tryto synthesize or let, try to
summarize what we just talkedabout or just decided and what
the next steps are.
And I think that clarity helpsmove a problem forward in
spades.
So I think that's reallyimportant.
The second thing I'd say is theability to break a problem down
into bite-sized chunks.
McKinsey, we get called in tosolve some of that, the hairiest
(36:20):
problems you could think of, andit could be pretty intimidating,
especially in the first coupleof weeks when we're still
wrapping our heads around it,but we're trained to immediately
take that problem and startbreaking it down into components
at a level where each componentcan be solved independently.
We have many tricks, many toolsto do this, but I think that the
essence is don't getintimidated.
(36:41):
Problem solving is a contactsport, and you've gotta jump in
order to make progress.
And then, the third one I'llgive you here, Dorothy, is I
think it's really important torecognize the difference between
a fact and an insight.
Anyone can collect facts, butpushing yourself to really think
about what is the insight?
Will this insight cause you tothink differently about a
(37:03):
decision?
I think that's actually themagic.
There aren't typically hundredsof these.
They are few and far between,but your job is to hunt these
down, turn over every stoneuntil you find them, because
that's what can be truly gamechanging for an organization's
trajectory.
Dorothy Dowling (37:19):
I think that I.
Insights is very impactful,Ryan, so I'm gonna take that one
myself.
But I do think the way you'vebuilt the bridge between facts
and really offering somethingthat could be game changing for
the business is something everyleader could benefit from.
So we're coming up to the end ofour interview, Ryan, and I'm
just wondering, I know you.
(37:39):
Identified a lot of publicationsthat you read very frequently,
but I'm just wondering ifthere's any books or other ideas
or around podcasts or frameworksthat might have been helpful to
you or continue to be helpfulthat you might offer to our
audience in terms of how theycan continue their journey?
Ryan Mann (37:57):
Yeah.
I love I just recently read thisbook I love it, was called A
More Beautiful Question byWarren Berger, and what it does
is it turns questions into anart form.
I.
And when I noticed it or when Iread it, rather, I noticed an
immediate change in how I wasasking questions and I think
asking better questions leads tobetter answers.
So that was a really good bookand I, I definitely recommend
reading that.
(38:18):
I also never miss the ethicistcolumn in the New York Times.
Reading through how the ethicistreasons through impossible
questions I think has made me abetter problem solver.
Dorothy Dowling (38:29):
Again, thank you for that.
And I'm gonna buy that book'cause I haven't read it yet
myself, so I'll look forward tothat.
Yeah.
The last question that we alwaysask is if there's any final
piece of advice that you'd liketo offer to the individuals in
the hospitality industry thatare listening to you today?
Ryan, in terms of how they maywanna build their career map and
plan their journey withintention,
Ryan Mann (38:51):
I'd say throw away the map.
The world is changing so fastthat maps won't really do you
any good.
You can't connect the dotsforward anyway.
You can only connect thembackwards, and I think there are
a few really valuable practices,but spending too much time
planning has only limitedutility.
A couple of the practices that Iwould recommend are one,
(39:13):
self-reflect a lot.
Spend time after every bigmilestone or project reflecting
on what went well, what you dodifferently next time, and
importantly, write it down.
Revisit it every few months andthen start to connect dots and
find themes.
And I think those will guideyour next move.
(39:33):
And then think about what youwanna learn, not where you wanna
be.
I think we can really get caughtup in titles or promotions or
wins but a career is not meantto be limited.
And linear.
It is not a race.
So rather than saying, I want tobe a director in two years,
instead, focus on the skills youwant build.
And the things you wanna learnand experience, and I honestly
(39:54):
think that this will be not onlymore fulfilling, but it'll
probably take you to places younever could have imagined to
begin with.
I.
Dorothy Dowling (40:02):
I've always personally believed that a
career is a marathon.
It's not a sprint.
So I do think the way you'vearchitected that process Ryan,
and not saying that, you canhave some degree of intention in
terms of where you wanna go, butyou're talking more about.
Being a learning journey and agrowth journey.
And I've, I'm a big fan of CarolDweck, have been for many years,
and I always love her thoughtprocess of not yet, because that
(40:25):
just means that it is somethingthat sometime in the future that
we will get there.
So if I could just close, andexpress my appreciation, Ryan,
for just offering so muchwonderful wisdom to our audience
today and being so well preparedas you always are, and I know
the audience is going to takeyour advice to heart and it will
certainly help all of us tobecome better in the roles that
(40:47):
we have today.
And.
And prepare us for the future.
So thank you.
And if I could, I also wouldlike to thank our audience
because if you've enjoyed thisinterview with Ryan today, I
hope you'll visit us on ourwebsite, it's personal
stories.com, where you will seewebcasts and podcasts from other
industry leaders that willempower your knowledge and feel
your spirit.
So I hope to see you there andagain, thank you from the bottom
(41:09):
of my heart, Ryan, for makingtime for this important
conversation today.
Ryan Mann (41:14):
Thank you, Dorothy.
Always a pleasure.
Dorothy Dowling (41:16):
Likewise.
Greetings.
I am Dorothy Dowling and welcometo its Personal Stories, a
hospitality podcast thathighlights the inspiring
journeys of leaders in thehospitality industry.
We are a nonprofit organizationdedicated to personal
empowerment.
I am delighted to welcome RyanMann, partner at McKinsey and
Company.
Ryan, it is such an honor tohave you with us today.
Ryan Mann (00:28):
Thank you Dorothy.
It's an honor to be with youtoday.
Dorothy Dowling (00:32):
So Ryan, we always like to start our
interview talking about ourguests career journey.
So I'm hoping you would sharewith our audience what inspired
you to pursue a career inconsulting and what led you to
focus on the hospitality sector.
Ryan Mann (00:47):
Absolutely.
you and I have something veryimportant in common.
We're both Canadians.
You grew up in Ontario.
I grew up in Montreal, Quebec.
Despite my love for hockey,after graduating from McGill
with a degree in marketing, Imoved as far away from the cold
as I possibly could.
And I took a job in Los Angeles,in, in brand and advertising
(01:07):
research.
I enjoyed the job.
I loved living in la.
Love the beach, love thesummertime weather.
But after five or so years Ifound myself itching for
something new.
So I went to business school inChicago at Northwestern.
And that's where I learned moreabout consulting and decided to
give it a try.
So I joined McKinsey about adecade ago after completing a
(01:29):
summer internship with the firm.
And when I started at McKinsey,I like, like most first year
consultants, had no idea what Iwanted to do.
I thought I'd try a fewindustries and a few functions
before settling on a major, andI did just that in my first
year.
So I did a project in banking.
I did a project in lifereinsurance of all topics.
(01:50):
A fun study for a largeretailer.
I was having fun.
I was working long hourstraveling across the country,
living out of a suitcase, but.
As I was starting to feel like Iwas getting the hang of
consulting, I didn't, I stillhadn't found the spark that
would give me that extra jolt ofenergy and passion.
I soon found it though, in, inhotels.
So in my third year at McKinsey,I had the privilege of
(02:13):
partnering with an iconic hotelchain on a digital
transformation, and it waseye-opening for me.
I finally felt like I had landedon my passion.
I found the hospitality sector.
It was just beautifully complex.
Certainly not for the faint ofheart, but I loved it.
It had a language that franklyjust spoke to me.
Hotels play such an importantrole in our lives.
(02:35):
They care for us.
They house us at our very bestmoments in celebrations,
sometimes at are most vulnerablemoments.
And most importantly, though,the industry attracts what I
found to be the perfectintersection of smart and kind
people.
And these were people that Iwanted to be around.
I wanted to learn from them andI wanted to help them, make them
as successful as possible.
(02:57):
So I felt like I had finallytruly found my home.
At the time, McKinsey actuallyhad only a small hotel practice,
and so I decided to go all in onthe sector and help grow it by
building, world class knowledgeand insights and recruiting some
of our best people to it.
And.
Today I'm proud that our hotelsector and our travel sector
more broadly, it's one of ourfastest growing worldwide and
(03:20):
one that attracts our very besttalent to our engagements.
Dorothy Dowling (03:24):
There's a couple things that you said
there, Ryan.
What always has attracted me tothe industry is just the sense
of the inventory beingperishable.
So it creates a sense of urgencyand, just a level of
prioritizing in terms of makingdecisions.
I, but I do love what you saidabout the people in our industry
'cause I do think they're trulyspecial and I think you are one
(03:44):
of those special people.
So I'm really grateful thatyou're part of our industry.
Thank you.
I'm just wondering if you cantalk a little bit about defining
moments.
I know you talked a little bitabout your going back to school
and that approach that you tookat McKinsey, but were there some
pivotal moments that reallydrove some of your career
decisioning?
Ryan Mann (04:03):
Yeah, so look like many of my generation, I have to
point to Covid as a careerdefiner.
O overnight all of my clientwork disappeared.
And on a personal level, Icouldn't fly home to see my
parents.
My now wife and I had to cancelour wedding after delaying it
three times, and, of coursethere was a global pandemic
going on, so you had to dealwith that and it's very scary.
(04:26):
But through the darkness, I'dsay there were many moments that
shaped me both personally andprofessionally.
So with no client work at all Iraised my hand to lead a team
focused on travel's, response toCovid.
You've gotta think back andremember, Dorothy, at the time,
the world was turning upsidedown every day.
Nobody knew what to make of it.
And at McKinsey, our think tank,the McKinsey Global Institute.
(04:48):
Was working around the clockseven days a week to collect as
much data as possible.
So what I did is I took whatthey were doing took those
inputs, turned them intoinsights for the travel
industry.
I had a team.
We wrote articles, we publishedvideos.
We held weekly webinars to getas much info as we possibly
could into the hands of ourbeloved travel industry.
(05:09):
Every week we had about 500 orso organizations join us on
these webinars, and it washumbling to be able to.
Help folks makes even theslightest bit of sense out of
the world at the time.
We did this for nine months.
And through this effort, I'llsay I, I learned the true power
of global collaboration as wellas the power of truly just
(05:30):
service, right?
So in a crisis, run toward thefire, do what you can to help no
matter how big or small acontribution you think you're
making.
In my case, it was just tryingto get some information out
about our industry.
Dorothy Dowling (05:43):
That's an incredible story, Ryan, and I do
think that Covid reallyredefined many of us.
And I do think that nature of uscollaborating and trying to
support each other through someof the challenges as well as
share information was I.
W was defining for many.
And I've always respectedMcKinsey because you do make an
investment in the industry andtrying to enable all of us to be
(06:05):
smarter and better informed.
But I do think the work that youdid through Covid was
extraordinary.
So I thank you for taking thatand for helping all of us unpack
what data was out there and.
Also just be a friend and amentor to many as we all
struggled through some of thepersonal and professional
challenges that we all facedduring that time.
(06:25):
Absolutely.
So I'm wondering if you can talka little bit about great
leadership and what it lookslike in consulting, because
obviously you have to be on theforefront of change.
You've gotta be looking andadapting and really offering a
lot of strategic thinking toyour clients, and you're
constantly being tested in thatarena.
So I'm hoping you might offerthings to our audience about how
(06:47):
you approach all of thatchallenge.
Ryan Mann (06:50):
I remember in my interview for McKenzie, my
interviewer asked me a similarquestion and I replied with this
great story that I hadmeticulously prepared for my
prior roles in marketingresearch.
And the story was about how Ihad to show leadership on my
team when the team just wasn'tfunctioning very well.
And I, as the manager had tomake some tough calls.
And I'll actually never forgetthe feedback my interviewer gave
(07:11):
me.
She said that's an interestingstory.
But it's the wrong story.
I.
For consulting because in yourprior role, your team had to
listen to you.
You were the boss.
But in consulting, nobody has tolisten to you.
You're nobody's boss.
Definitely not your client'sbosses, and that means they
don't have to listen to you atall.
So you've gotta find other waysto be effective here.
I, I hadn't even been offeredthe job when I received that
(07:34):
feedback, but it totally shapedthe way I think about leadership
and consulting.
In some ways I think of my jobas a catalyst, whether that's to
make a decision to transform anorganization to build a new
business.
And I can't do this by tellinganyone what to do.
I have to instead come up withan independent perspective of
the answer, build a case for itwith facts, perspectives,
(07:54):
scenarios, leadership alignment.
And I've actually found that asI've grown as a partner in
consulting, my leadership styleshifted away from always have to
have the answer to trying to askthe right question.
And to me, I think this is themost interesting part of what I
get to do every day.
And it's a large part of what'skept me here for a decade.
Dorothy Dowling (08:17):
Okay, I'm gonna unpack that a little bit more,
but I do think that wholeelement of continuing to
challenge and offer questions iscritically important in terms of
really getting to what problemis trying to be solved for, and
then also continuing to iterateon some of those solutions,
which I know McKenzie hasincredible discipline in terms
(08:38):
of.
Really solving for their clientsand supporting their client's
problems.
I'm wondering if I can move onand talk a little bit about time
management and priority setting,because we both know that I.
Consulting is notoriouslydemanding.
It has tremendous amounts oftravel, and you're often in an
(09:00):
environment where you are on avirtual stage where people are
listening to you.
You have to be speaking withauthority and from a position of
knowledge.
I would love to hear how youpersonally manage all those time
demands and you set prioritieswhen everything that's on your
plate feels urgent.
Ryan Mann (09:17):
Yeah, it's a great question.
So look at this point in mycareer, a, after having done it
for about a decade, I generallyhave a good sense of how long
most things on my plate willtake me to do.
And I also schedule my days tothe minute so I know exactly how
much time I have.
Now inevitably demand is higherthan supply, and I solve this
(09:37):
through my network of trustedcolleagues.
Not a day goes by when I don'tmake an introduction to a
colleague who's better suited tomeet a client, answer a
question, write a report.
I.
I am very fortunate, I think, towork with some of the most
talented and passionate peoplein the world.
And so I feel very good aboutsaying things like, look I'd
love to do this, but let meintroduce you to Melinda or Alex
(10:01):
or Daniel or Christian.
I have complete trust in themand I know they'll absolutely
knock this out of the park.
And so that I think has helpedme have leverage over time, gain
control over my calendar.
Dorothy Dowling (10:13):
I think that's really great advice and you do
have an, a remarkable team ofpeers as well as teammates that
you can bring into solving thosekinds of challenges.
Ryan but I'd like to hear alittle bit more in terms of the
client deliverables, becauseoften they're hiring you.
I know how much global travelyou're doing.
And I know the kinds ofchallenges that people are
(10:35):
asking for your assistance with.
So I would love to hear, and Iknow you just became a new dad
not too long ago and you gotmarried recently, so I would
love to hear how you manage thatwork life pharmacy, harmony, and
also role model that for yourteam.
Ryan Mann (10:53):
Look, this is a bit of a hot take, Dorothy but I
don't aim for, I don't aim forbalance.
Balance implies some degree ofeven split across personal and
work and I frankly just don'tthink that's attainable.
Not in consulting and not inmost jobs, in careers these
days.
It's funny actually how thiscell phone, which was supposed
to free us from the oppressivelandline, which required you to
(11:14):
sit by your phone if you wereexpecting an important call,
it's actually made us less freein some sense.
Because now work is always justa glance away, seven days a
week, 24 hours a day, especiallywith a global mandate.
In that context, finding momentsof sanity is absolutely critical
for me to be able to do the deepthinking that I need to do to be
effective in my role.
(11:35):
I.
If I'm just completing tasks allday I can't do what you
described and speak about thingsand have a perspective.
So for me, these moments areoften when my flight's taking
off.
When I'm ironing my clothes forthe day, when I'm showering, I
just try and find those pocketsof time.
And then the other thing thatkeeps me grounded and you
mentioned him, it's my 16 monthold son, Noah.
(11:56):
And holding him in my arms.
It's the best.
And he puts everything intoperspective.
And I've absolutely been late tomeetings because I've spent an
extra five minutes snugglingwith him.
And to be honest, I neitherregret this, nor do I apologize
for it.
It's what makes it all worth it.
Dorothy Dowling (12:11):
Yeah, that's a beautiful story and Noah is a
beautiful boy.
Ryan and I think just actuallyallowing for that kind of
humanity and giving peoplepermission to, take those
moments.
Because I do think it restoresour soul as well as I do think
those moments of reflectionallow us to bring much more.
Meaningful thought to problemsthat we're trying to support
(12:32):
others with.
So thank you for that.
And I do agree about yourthought process on work-life
balance.
That's why I think it's soimportant that we find work
that's fulfilling because thenwork doesn't really seem like
work.
So thank you for that.
Thank you.
So I know you talked earlierabout this journey and when you
went through the interviewprocess and unpacking problems
(12:54):
with clients really starts withlistening and really honing in
on the problem that you'retrying to solve.
But I'd love to hear how youactively listen and what advice
do you have for leaders that arelistening to you today in terms
of how do you become a betterlistener?
Ryan Mann (13:11):
Yeah.
Look, I think Dorothy'seffective problem solving you,
you're spot on, starts withactive listening.
And I think the active listeningrequires at least two mindsets.
The first is respect andhumility.
Not to start with thecounterfactual, but.
I find that most people whodon't actively listen have their
talking points or their answersalready in their heads, and
(13:34):
they're just waiting for you tostop talking so that they could
make their point.
And active listening isdifferent.
It requires you to want to learnfrom the person you're engaging
with.
It's not about making sure yourideas get out there.
It's about collectively gettingto even stronger ideas together.
That's the first.
I think the second is curiosity.
(13:54):
I think the best activelisteners are also genuinely
curious people.
They care to understand how youthink.
I.
It.
Why you think that way?
Your motivations.
Do, Dorothy you probablyremember the late night wars of
the nineties, right?
So Leno versus Letterman andLeno always won in the ratings,
but I think True comedy fans allgenerally prefer Letterman.
(14:15):
At least that's my opinion.
And it's because.
While Leno's interviews oftenfollowed a script, one question
after the next, Letterman wouldreally get into the trenches
with his guests and exploreideas together.
And that sometimes led to somepretty weird interviews, but
also sometimes led to comedygold.
And so Letterman ceiling wasmuch higher.
And I think the same is true inproblem solving.
(14:37):
You've gotta get into thetrenches, you've gotta ask
questions, you've gotta listencarefully and build together.
That's where the magic happens.
Dorothy Dowling (14:46):
I think that leads me to this next question
because earlier you spoke aboutthe investment that McKinsey
makes in terms of educatingothers and providing really
great thought leadership interms of how we can continue to
tap our game.
And I.
I've always loved a lot of theMcKinsey assets that I've been
able to buy over the years.
And this whole concept of yourstructured thinking approach and
(15:09):
how you think about mutuallyexclusive collective exhaustive
approaches when you'reapproaching complicated
problems.
I.
I'm just wondering if you canspeak a little bit about that
thought leadership that you'veoffered to so many of us and
what that means in terms of yourconsulting efforts.
Ryan Mann (15:26):
Yeah.
L let me talk about mutuallyexclusive, collectively
exhaustive, which actuallylittle known fact, even though
most people pronounce it.
Mei, myself included, by theway, it's actually according to
the person who pended pronouncedme, like Greece okay.
So thank you.
The concept actually stems froma classic McKinsey framework,
which we call the PyramidPrinciple.
(15:47):
And it was codified by BarbaraPinto, who was our firm's first
female MBA professional hire.
And in her role, like mostpartners, she was spending a lot
of time editing documents andshe found herself constantly
reorganizing the team's ideasinto a structure that looked a
lot like a pyramid.
And she developed that into atool.
(16:07):
So it's a tool to structure yourthoughts.
At the top of the pyramid is themain recommendation or the idea
under that are the arguments.
And then under that are thesupporting insights and
conclusions.
And each point above has to be asummary of those below'cause
it's derived from them.
And as Barbara would say it, youcan't derive an idea from a
(16:30):
grouping.
Unless the ideas in the groupingare logically the same and in
logical order.
So this concept requires thatthose groups of ideas are Missy
divided pieces that are mutuallyexclusive of each other and
collectively exhaustive in termsof the whole.
And then on our teams, thesepieces then often turn into the
work streams that we assign toour consultants.
(16:53):
In our team, problem solvings,we consistently ask each other.
Is this answer truly Mei?
Is this framework, is this listtruly Mei?
Are we missing something?
Is there overlap?
And I'll tell you, as a youngconsultant, there was no worse
day.
And when a partner came into theroom, looked at your analysis
and tells you didn't nail it,this isn't right, you've gotta
scrap it.
(17:13):
'cause it's not Macy.
Dorothy Dowling (17:16):
So I'm glad you pronounced it for me'cause I
have said maci for a while andthat was one of the reasons why
I avoided it until you said it.
But I do think that disciplineapproach to thinking and really
continuing to iterate on that issomething our audience can take
back.
And for those people that arelistening, McKinsey has a lot of
resource tools that arepublished that you can buy on
(17:36):
Amazon or other places.
And you can also subscribeobviously to a lot of.
The McKinsey newsletters thatyou referenced earlier, Ryan,
but I do think they make usbetter leaders regardless of
whether we're consulting or not,in terms of really thinking
through problem solving at amuch more strategic level.
So I appreciate you talkingabout that pyramid and how I.
(17:58):
The relatability of all of thosethings flow up to the
recommendation.
Thank you.
I wanna go back to questions ifI may, because we talked about
how important that is aboutasking the right questions.
So I'm really hoping you canhone in and help us a little bit
about how you continue toiterate on asking those
strategic questions before youjump into the solution or the
(18:21):
recommendation.
Ryan Mann (18:22):
Yeah, I can't emphasize how important it is to
ask the right questions.
The least successful projectsI've been a part of have
actually all had the sameproblem in common.
We jumped right into solutioningbefore making sure we were
asking the right questions.
My teams will spend anuncomfortable amount of time
upfront with our clientsdefining the problem, and it's
(18:45):
actually absolutely normal forus to end up asking a different
question.
And the one we started with.
So lemme give you a recentexample.
I was working on an operationstudy with a client recently,
and the exam question they askedus was how to make a particular
process more effective.
And, we thought about it and wecreated all of our trees and
started to think about how wewould solve this.
(19:05):
But as we dug into it weactually took a step back and
reframed the question and saidmaybe a, an interesting thought
experiment is, does this processneed to even exist?
And surprisingly because thiscompany had been doing this
process for 30 years, the answeractually turned out to be no.
And so we saved months of work,millions of dollars just by
(19:27):
asking the right question.
Dorothy Dowling (19:31):
I'm thinking about the hospitalities that
leaders that are on this calltoday.
Obviously we're facing, again, alot of uncertainty and
volatility in terms of what'sgoing on in the macro
environment and whether we'regonna be facing any kind of
economic downturn.
I'm just wondering what kind ofadvice you might give to
hospitalities leaders about howdo they make decisions in highly
(19:54):
uncertain times.
Ryan Mann (19:56):
Yeah, the world we live in is definitely
increasingly uncertain and evenvolatile.
And and this environment,business leaders have to adapt.
There's no choice.
I think the answer to yourquestion, Dorothy, is to get
really specific about the typeof uncertainty you're facing.
And I actually usually thinkabout three types of
uncertainty.
So in, in the first, there's aclear enough view of the future,
(20:17):
not exactly sure, but you'repretty sure what it's gonna be.
And imagine predicting RevPARfor the next quarter, right?
There still some uncertainty.
That uncertainty probablywouldn't change the answer of
what you would go do.
And so in those situations wherethere's a clear enough view of
the future, I generallyencourage my clients to develop
a single forecast for thosesituations.
(20:39):
In the second, there are smallnumber of discreet alternative
futures that are possible.
So imagine, the impact ofpotential travel bans on your
hotel.
It's impossible or foolish tobet on just one scenario in that
situation.
So my advice to clients in thesesituations is to establish
probabilities and figure outwhat parts of your strategy
(21:00):
would need to change dependingon which alternatives comes to
pass.
And, super important here is tofigure out what are the early
markers that will tell youwhether you're headed toward one
alternative versus another.
So being early, ideally first tonotice these that helps you move
faster than your competitors andget ahead of whatever future is
(21:21):
unfolding.
That's the second.
The third is where there's atrue range of potential futures
that are possible.
Now there are a limited numberof key variables that define
that range, but the actualoutcome could lie, frankly,
anywhere within it.
And there aren't any naturaldiscreet scenarios within that.
So for hotels, imagine, a chainintroducing a new brand in a new
(21:43):
chain scale.
It could grow anywhere from zeroto a hundred to 200 hotels in
the next two years, but therearen't any obvious scenarios
within that range.
And so here what I recommend toclients is to develop.
Two to three scenarios, no morewithin that range, each with
distinct and unique implicationsfor what you would go do if
(22:03):
they're too similar.
You don't need to waste timecreating that scenario.
And these scenarios should beprobable.
But they won't rep, they won'trepresent all of the possible
potential outcomes.
And then what you do is you goback to what you do in that
second type of uncertainty andyou model the implications and
you look out for the markers.
So those are the three types ofscenarios that I tend to look at
(22:24):
in uncertainty.
Dorothy Dowling (22:26):
I I think that's fabulous advice, and I do
think that focusing onprobability and then creating a
disciplined thought plan aroundeach one can power everyone in
terms of.
Reducing the amount ofuncertainty and certainly having
a game plan based on what kindof new information might be
surfacing on a daily or weeklybasis.
So thank you for that.
(22:47):
I wanna go back to a book thathas been pretty instrumental to
me, which is in McKinsey Way,and I love that book.
I share it with many because itreally helped me frame up some
of my communication approachesand.
I do love the rule of three.
That's part of it, and I'm justwondering if you can expand a
little bit on that and why thatis really helpful for
(23:08):
individuals to keep in mind whenthey have a story they wanna
communicate.
Ryan Mann (23:12):
Yeah, it's a great book.
And you actually just heard mename three things it's a good
segue.
So the rule of three essentiallysays that when presenting your
key points, you should presentthem in threes, not in twos or
fours.
So why three?
The reason for three, frankly,is it's as much art as it is
science.
So we found over time that threepoints tend to be more
memorable.
(23:33):
More clear and more confident.
And three, also forces a choicein a way that two doesn't and
four sometimes overwhelms.
And so we landed on three.
For us it's become very naturalto think in threes and to
communicate in threes.
It's not always three, but it'soften three.
And it just sounds better to uswhen it's in threes.
Dorothy Dowling (23:53):
Yeah, no, I really like it and I think it
ties back to that pyramidprinciple too, Ryan, in terms of
just making sure that thenarrative actually ties back to
each one of those points thatyou're making in the rule of
three.
And I do think from an audience.
Point of view, it allows peopleto absorb your information,
manage this expectations aboutwhat's coming.
(24:14):
And then it also, I think, makesit far more memorable.
I'd like to build on that alittle bit because you're an
incredible speaker.
I've had the good fortune ofbeing in the audience several
times and you've been on stage.
So I'd love for you to sharewith the audience about how do
you prepare yourself to deliversuch impactful communications
when you're on stage.
Ryan Mann (24:34):
Yeah.
And as part of my role leadingour hospitality sector I have
the privilege of often speakingat conferences and offsites, and
I always try to do a ton of prepahead of any of these
engagements.
Every day I am compulsivelyreading Skift CoStar,
hospitality today, BTN, otherreligiously.
And I amp that up ahead of anengagement.
I also talk to folks, clients,other partners not just in North
(24:56):
America, but across the globe tohear what they're hearing and
seeing even our own internaltravel buyers to get their
perspectives.
And then I do some real deepthinking to develop my own
perspectives on the points thatI want to convey.
And I often try to convey themin a contrary invoice so you
know, nobody needs another suittelling them that Gen AI has the
(25:16):
potential to transform tripitinerary planning.
That's boring.
It's played out and it's not,frankly, something I feel very
passionate about.
And so I, I look for that kernelof passionate interest'cause I
think the audience will feel it.
And I try to structure myspeeches around those.
So whether it's the future ofmanaged business travel, or why
hotel loyalty needs a revampedor, the opportunity for luxury
(25:39):
hospitality to leapfrog andappeal to a whole new
generation.
These are the topics that, thatI want to bring.
Original thinking too and I feelpassionate about sharing more
broadly.
Dorothy Dowling (25:51):
If I could, I just wanna emphasize a few
points that you made.
One message I heard was just theoutside preparation that you
invest in, making sure thatyou're bringing good content.
Two is just your dailycommitment to staying informed,
and I agree with you on all ofthe various trade pubs that you
just identified in terms ofkeeping us up to speed on.
A lot of what is happening on adaily basis.
(26:14):
But the other piece that Ireally love that you brought
forward, Ryan, is taking acontrarian point of view because
I do think people hearingsomething different is, allows
them to think differently aswell.
That's great advice for ouraudience.
So thank you.
I wonder if we can talk a littlebit about the industry because
the hospitality industry is seenas a traditional industry.
We're tied up in a lot of legacysystems and other kinds of
(26:36):
things that, from a capitalinvestment that I think makes us
much more traditional in ourapproach.
I'm wondering if you can Iidentify for the audience, what
do you think some of the bigdisruptors that are coming in
the next three to five years?
Ryan Mann (26:50):
I'm excited.
I think there are a number ofreally exciting areas to watch,
but I think the first point I'dmake here, Dorothy, is that
whether we're looking threeyears out or 30 years out, I
actually think the core ofhospitality will remain.
It's absolutely true that Gen AIis making waves and making
changes, and it's absolutelytrue that vacation rentals have
boomed over the past 15 years,but hotels are doing fine.
(27:13):
And I think they will continuedoing fine.
A warm smile, a clean room, acomfy bed to rest for the night.
There is no disruption that willupend this.
I bet.
Anything on that?
That said, there are a number ofchanges that, that I am excited
about.
First I think distribution'sgonna shift meaningfully.
It's only a matter of timebefore gen AI engines start to
(27:33):
embed auction elements andbecome the evolution of paid
meta search.
You combine that with the majorchains, investing in their CRSs
to enable things like attributebased selling, and I think we're
gonna see a whole new world ofmerchandising across channels
and distribution going forward.
Dorothy Dowling (27:49):
Yeah, I totally agree.
I think that content andattribute selling and I do think
the way we serve content back toconsumers is going to change
dramatically, and we are goingto have to shift away from some
of the legacy systems that we'vebeen so dependent on and embrace
some of this new technology andpotentially right off some of
those capital investments thathave been made over.
The last few decades.
Ryan Mann (28:10):
It's about time that we invest in some of these and
move forward, right?
We've been merchandising roomsand rates forever.
It's about time we move forward.
Dorothy Dowling (28:17):
Yeah.
And I do think the B2C spacedoes it so much better than the
B2B that we've gotta recognizethat those customers do not live
in discreet places.
That they expect to see the samekind of solution in the business
travel space as they see in theconsumer space.
So it.
Ryan Mann (28:32):
I think in business travel, we'll see a much more
touchless journey.
It'll totally transform thecustomer experience of business
travel.
My business travel profile, whydoesn't it pull in a 360 view of
my preferences, my behavior, myloyalty status?
It should, right?
On the flight side, I think NDCshould finally start delivering
personalized bundles.
(28:53):
We'll see that in the nextcouple of years, we're already
seeing it in pockets.
And then on the lodging side, Ishould be receiving nudges to
select bundled rates thatbenefit me, for example, points
offers.
But these things should alsobenefit my company.
So I think we're gonna see thatgoing forward.
Yeah.
The other thing I'm excitedabout here is, how travel shifts
to cater to the needs and wantsof younger generations in
(29:14):
particular.
It's not just that youngergenerations in survey after
survey tell us how much theylove travel'cause that's true,
but it's also that youngergenerations are about to inherit
I hope you're sitting down forthis Dorothy, but$84 trillion in
the largest wealth transfer inhistory.
So you combine a, a group oftravelers who disproportionately
(29:34):
value vacations now with theability to spend on those
vacations.
And I think our sector is gonnabe supported by some real tail
tailwinds in the near term.
Dorothy Dowling (29:42):
Yeah, I agree.
I totally agree, Ryan, and Ithink keeping those data points
in mind, because the other partthat I also keep in mind is just
the demography shift and thelevel of retirement and
engagement that we have, timeand money that's continuing to
shift in terms of people'sinterest in travel and
investment and experiences.
Ryan Mann (30:02):
Exactly.
I
Dorothy Dowling (30:04):
am wondering if I could speak a little bit with
you more about the commercialleadership evolution, because I
would love to hear how you seethe role of commercial leaders
evolving in hospitality and whatskills will be most successful
for their future success.
Ryan Mann (30:19):
Yeah.
I think commercial leaders haveto be.
The very best collaborators intheir business, their role is
really an integrative one.
They've gotta integratedistribution, marketing brands,
OTAs, care centers, sales,loyalty.
They gotta work with operationsand they've gotta make it all
feel very seamless.
They also increasingly need tofind ways to do more with less,
(30:40):
especially as we head into aperiod of relatively slower
growth.
And I think what that means isfinding ways to use technology
in smart ways so that you canreallocate resources and funds
to areas that woulddisproportionately benefit from
it.
And then I think commercialleaders need to be expert clear
communicators.
As the major chains continue tocollect brands and loyalty
(31:01):
programs lose some of theirshine, right?
The chief commercial officer hasto be able to clearly and
persuasively communicate theirorganization's value prop, what
makes'em unique and worthy ofyour staying and being the voice
of your brand and doing so in aclear and compelling way is
absolutely crucial.
Dorothy Dowling (31:19):
There's a lot to unpack there, but I do think
the two main points that I heardwas just this need to
collaborate across all the linesof business as well as all of
the subject matter experts,Ryan, to really make sure that
we're leveraging the diversityof thought and bringing much
more alignment in terms of a goto market approach.
And I also agree with your pointof view in terms of being a very
(31:40):
clear communicator andunderstanding your value
proposition.
Winning and losing is often.
You have to have your offensivestrategy, you have to have your
defensive strategy, but youalways have to understand the
value proposition that you bringto the customer as well.
I'm wondering if we could talk alittle bit about talent because
I have been extraordinarilyimpressed with some of the
teammates that I know have beennurtured by you.
(32:01):
I would love to hear how youactually take on that
responsibility, developingtalent within McKinsey and
nurturing high performingconsultants.
Ryan Mann (32:11):
I, I look for three things.
Passion, curiosity, andcreativity.
The rest I can teach, but when Ifind someone with passion,
curiosity, and creativity, Iknow I've found a star and I
overinvest to develop thisperson.
Our culture at McKinsey is anapprenticeship culture.
We learn by doing, and so Ibring folks, I support onto my
(32:33):
teams.
I, I carefully give themopportunities to stretch and.
As I've become more senior here,I've also grown much more
comfortable not being the firstvoice in the room.
So often my managers or theassociate partners will lead the
presentation and I'll weigh inor ask questions throughout.
I.
We also have a very strongfeedback culture at McKinsey.
And in truth we probably got abit away from it during Covid
(32:56):
especially when everyone wasjust remote.
But it's definitely back and wedo in the moment feedback.
We also do more structured,regular feedback sessions across
teams and I think feedback hasto go both ways.
I always ask everyone, no matterhow junior or senior for
feedback on my performance andengagement'cause.
I think we always have a lot tolearn, by the way, and that's
not just team members.
That also for me includesclients.
Dorothy Dowling (33:18):
I think that's really great advice and I do
think that structured feedbackis something we can all learn
from because I do think in thisworld of, hybrid work and other
things it's the way we stayconnected to each other and
support each other and reallyhelp with that growth.
And I know everyone isstruggling with talent in terms
of building and nurturing, so Ithink that.
(33:38):
Concept of how to do that wellis something our audience can
really learn from you.
I'd also like to ask about howyou build Future Ready Teams and
how you coach your teammates.
How to build Future Ready Teams.
They're still required todeliver on the consulting and
the short term businessrequirements that you have
within your scope of work.
Ryan Mann (34:00):
Yeah.
In, in some ways you can't have.
You can't get the benefit ofhaving a long-term plan without
delivering short-term results,right?
You gotta earn your way to thatlong-term plan.
So this is critical, and that'strue for organizations.
That's also true for teams.
And I think the piece that oftengets missed is succession
planning.
I.
Having a really strong bench andnurturing that bench is really
(34:22):
important.
I coach my clients to always bethinking about what their team
members in their group should bedoing in two years, not today
what they should be doing in twoyears and what they're doing
today how that'll set them upfor the next role.
When I was a young consultant, Ialways thought if I could make
myself irreplaceable, I'd alwayshave a job.
And now I actually think aboutthis differently.
I wanna make myself replaceableso that I have the time and the
(34:44):
space to focus on the next role.
And I think this is reallyimportant and it's something I
spend a lot of time coaching myclients on.
Dorothy Dowling (34:52):
Again, I think that's very impactful advice,
and I think to have that twoyear vision of what work they
will want someone to be able todo and actually building that
capability with their team isreally important.
So I thank you for that as well.
Ryan.
I'm just wondering for ouraudience of aspiring leaders
that are listening to you, howwould you help them think more
(35:14):
like a consultant?
Ryan Mann (35:16):
I don't know that aspiring hospitality leader
should necessarily think morelike us.
But there are parts of ourtoolkit that I think could
benefit everyone.
For example, a few tricks that Iwould take with me if I were to
return to industry.
So let me give you a few.
One is synthesis.
So summarizing a large number offacts and anecdotes into their
essence.
(35:37):
I often ask my teams, what's theone or two sentence summary and
what are the implications forthe client's business?
I sit in a lot of meetings in myrole as I'm sure you do and your
audience does.
And you can imagine how many ofthem just tend to go on and on
and swirl to the point whereit's hard to know what's been
decided.
And I love when someone raisestheir hand at that point and
(36:00):
says something like, let me tryto synthesize or let, try to
summarize what we just talkedabout or just decided and what
the next steps are.
And I think that clarity helpsmove a problem forward in
spades.
So I think that's reallyimportant.
The second thing I'd say is theability to break a problem down
into bite-sized chunks.
McKinsey, we get called in tosolve some of that, the hairiest
(36:20):
problems you could think of, andit could be pretty intimidating,
especially in the first coupleof weeks when we're still
wrapping our heads around it,but we're trained to immediately
take that problem and startbreaking it down into components
at a level where each componentcan be solved independently.
We have many tricks, many toolsto do this, but I think that the
essence is don't getintimidated.
(36:41):
Problem solving is a contactsport, and you've gotta jump in
order to make progress.
And then, the third one I'llgive you here, Dorothy, is I
think it's really important torecognize the difference between
a fact and an insight.
Anyone can collect facts, butpushing yourself to really think
about what is the insight?
Will this insight cause you tothink differently about a
(37:03):
decision?
I think that's actually themagic.
There aren't typically hundredsof these.
They are few and far between,but your job is to hunt these
down, turn over every stoneuntil you find them, because
that's what can be truly gamechanging for an organization's
trajectory.
Dorothy Dowling (37:19):
I think that I.
Insights is very impactful,Ryan, so I'm gonna take that one
myself.
But I do think the way you'vebuilt the bridge between facts
and really offering somethingthat could be game changing for
the business is something everyleader could benefit from.
So we're coming up to the end ofour interview, Ryan, and I'm
just wondering, I know you.
(37:39):
Identified a lot of publicationsthat you read very frequently,
but I'm just wondering ifthere's any books or other ideas
or around podcasts or frameworksthat might have been helpful to
you or continue to be helpfulthat you might offer to our
audience in terms of how theycan continue their journey?
Ryan Mann (37:57):
Yeah.
I love I just recently read thisbook I love it, was called A
More Beautiful Question byWarren Berger, and what it does
is it turns questions into anart form.
I.
And when I noticed it or when Iread it, rather, I noticed an
immediate change in how I wasasking questions and I think
asking better questions leads tobetter answers.
So that was a really good bookand I, I definitely recommend
reading that.
(38:18):
I also never miss the ethicistcolumn in the New York Times.
Reading through how the ethicistreasons through impossible
questions I think has made me abetter problem solver.
Dorothy Dowling (38:29):
Again, thank you for that.
And I'm gonna buy that book'cause I haven't read it yet
myself, so I'll look forward tothat.
Yeah.
The last question that we alwaysask is if there's any final
piece of advice that you'd liketo offer to the individuals in
the hospitality industry thatare listening to you today?
Ryan, in terms of how they maywanna build their career map and
plan their journey withintention,
Ryan Mann (38:51):
I'd say throw away the map.
The world is changing so fastthat maps won't really do you
any good.
You can't connect the dotsforward anyway.
You can only connect thembackwards, and I think there are
a few really valuable practices,but spending too much time
planning has only limitedutility.
A couple of the practices that Iwould recommend are one,
(39:13):
self-reflect a lot.
Spend time after every bigmilestone or project reflecting
on what went well, what you dodifferently next time, and
importantly, write it down.
Revisit it every few months andthen start to connect dots and
find themes.
And I think those will guideyour next move.
(39:33):
And then think about what youwanna learn, not where you wanna
be.
I think we can really get caughtup in titles or promotions or
wins but a career is not meantto be limited.
And linear.
It is not a race.
So rather than saying, I want tobe a director in two years,
instead, focus on the skills youwant build.
And the things you wanna learnand experience, and I honestly
(39:54):
think that this will be not onlymore fulfilling, but it'll
probably take you to places younever could have imagined to
begin with.
I.
Dorothy Dowling (40:02):
I've always personally believed that a
career is a marathon.
It's not a sprint.
So I do think the way you'vearchitected that process Ryan,
and not saying that, you canhave some degree of intention in
terms of where you wanna go, butyou're talking more about.
Being a learning journey and agrowth journey.
And I've, I'm a big fan of CarolDweck, have been for many years,
and I always love her thoughtprocess of not yet, because that
(40:25):
just means that it is somethingthat sometime in the future that
we will get there.
So if I could just close, andexpress my appreciation, Ryan,
for just offering so muchwonderful wisdom to our audience
today and being so well preparedas you always are, and I know
the audience is going to takeyour advice to heart and it will
certainly help all of us tobecome better in the roles that
(40:47):
we have today.
And.
And prepare us for the future.
So thank you.
And if I could, I also wouldlike to thank our audience
because if you've enjoyed thisinterview with Ryan today, I
hope you'll visit us on ourwebsite, it's personal
stories.com, where you will seewebcasts and podcasts from other
industry leaders that willempower your knowledge and feel
your spirit.
So I hope to see you there andagain, thank you from the bottom
(41:09):
of my heart, Ryan, for makingtime for this important
conversation today.
Ryan Mann (41:14):
Thank you, Dorothy.
Always a pleasure.
Dorothy Dowling (41:16):
Likewise.
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