February 20, 2025 • 31 mins
Bill shares how he differentiates Ferguson Partners by meeting his clients’ many needs and the founding of his nonprofit foundation - Centers of Excellence by scaling the Marriott Sorenson Howard University idea to 25 universities. We discuss the chapters of his new book ‘Living Beyond Your Dreams’ and he used the powerful and inspiring stories of Tom Baltimore, Leslie Hale, Daryl Carter and Mit Shah to illustrate the essence of several principles in his book - ‘Character Counts’, ‘Get Back up’, ‘Find Your Champions’, ‘Live to Learn’, ‘Play the Hand You’re Dealt, and ‘But Don’t Settle’. Don’t miss his valuable tips on preparing for job interviews and how he evaluates top candidates.
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Episode Transcript
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David Kong (00:00):
Greetings.
I'm David Kong, the founder andprincipal of It's Personal
Stories.
Today, I'm delighted to welcomeBill Ferguson.
He is the founder and cochairman of Ferguson Partners.
It's a global talent managementcompany specializing in real
estate, hospitality, andhospital services.
(00:21):
It's a great pleasure to haveyou, Bill.
Bill Ferguson (00:23):
Well, David, thank you so much for having me
on your show.
You've had a wonderful list ofvery impressive speakers.
I'm honored to be part of thatcompany.
David Kong (00:33):
It's wonderful to have you.
Bill, let's start with yourcareer journey.
I have known you for a while andI've also read up on you.
You've had such a remarkablejourney.
Would you mind to share some ofthe key inflection points that
shaped that journey and led youto your current success?
Bill Ferguson (00:51):
Yeah, it was, it was an interesting journey.
When I get out of businessschool, I was always intrigued
with the recruiting business.
I actually had an offer comingout of business school to become
the assistant.
To the chairman of one of therecruiting firms, and I thought
that was a little bit of heresy,but I was always intrigued by
the business.
And so I ended up joiningRussell Reynolds in the Chicago.
(01:15):
I became the assistant to thepresident, so I ended up in a
role that I thought I reallyshouldn't end up in 2 years
before when I went to GeneralMills.
I spent about 9 years atReynolds and great training, co
head of the real estatebusiness.
When I decided one day, David,that I wanted to be more
involved in some of thestrategic conversations that our
(01:38):
clients were having, I wantedmore access to the boardroom.
I came up with the concept ofplagiarizing the old Booz Allen
Hamilton.
And a lot of your viewers maynot remember, but Booz Allen
back in the day, and we'retalking the early 80s anyway,
85, 86, was actually in thesearch business.
(01:59):
They were in the managementconsulting business.
And they were in the executivecompensation business.
And I said, that sounds like aninteresting aggregation of
services because you can worknot only to help a client think
through their strategy, but alsoexecute.
And I really wanted to go outand apply this concept to our
(02:20):
industry, which I define as realassets, which is everything from
real estate to infrastructure.
I knew I couldn't be everythingto everybody as an
entrepreneurial firm.
I knew I wanted to be globalbecause firms like Blackstone
and Hilton were global firms.
And so I embarked upon thisjourney.
I created a firm that was aglobal talent management firm.
(02:42):
And we have businesses now,besides our board and C suite
search business, we have threeconsulting businesses, executive
comp, management consulting, andleadership consulting.
And they all work together toserve pretty much the entire
spectrum.
of talent management services aclient can have.
(03:02):
So it's been a greatrelationship approach for us,
and it's worked very well.
We've been in business for 35years, and we've at least done
something right.
So, it was just one of thosethings where I said, I want to
try it.
I knew if it didn't work, Icould always go back to Russell
Reynolds or another search firm.
And fortunately, I've neverlooked back.
So it's been a good story.
David Kong (03:22):
Congratulations on your tremendous success and
Ferguson Partners is such a wellrespected global company.
I'm delighted to have you on ourshow to share your wisdom with
the audience.
Now, aside from FergusonPartners, you also founded the
Centers of LeadershipExcellence.
It's a nonprofit and I waswondering if you can share the
(03:45):
mission and the impact thatyou're hoping to achieve through
this foundation.
Bill Ferguson (03:50):
It's interesting, David, since you were one of the
great CEOs in the hospitalitybusiness, it did all start
around the hospitality business.
Arne Sorensen was a dear friendand he died prematurely from
pancreatic cancer.
And the Marriott family made a20 billion gift.
To Howard University, and theycreated the Marriott Sorensen
(04:14):
Hospitality Center forLeadership Excellence, and the
concept behind the center wasthat they wanted to expose
talented undergraduate students,typically diverse undergraduate
students, to a career inhospitality.
So they created a hospitalityminor.
Uh, they hired a director to runthe program, and they started
(04:38):
teaching, I think, a couple ofcourses a semester, and may now
be up to as many as five, uh,courses per semester.
And then Marriott went out oftheir way with these students
who were minoring inhospitality, and there were
probably 15 to 20 at a time.
They helped them find summerjobs as sophomores and juniors.
and full time jobs as seniors.
(05:01):
And I looked at this concept andI said, if you scale this
concept from one college,meaning Howard, to many, maybe
25 colleges, and could access amuch broader population of
talented students, and providethem with an introduction to not
(05:21):
only the hospitality business,but all other facets of real
estate and infrastructure, youcould really create.
a wonderful conduit ofleadership talent.
Many students are firstgeneration going to college.
Very few of them do anythingabout our industry.
And so we started the foundationabout three years ago.
(05:43):
It's been marvelouslysuccessful.
We've raised well over 8million, and we now have 150
students in the program, andwe've got another 50 corporate
partners who will hire thesestudents either as summer
interns, as sophomores andjuniors, or full time as
(06:03):
seniors.
So we're very blessed.
Thank goodness for Marriott.
Thank goodness for Arnie.
Uh, because it just has been awonderful and very meaningful
experience for me.
And I count my blessings everyday.
Arnie was a very special leaderand I just have always been very
honored to know him.
And it's great to createsomething that should be a
(06:26):
legacy to him as well.
David Kong (06:29):
Thank you for taking a very good idea from Barney
Sorensen and Marriott a stepfurther and expanding it into 25
universities.
You're right, why stop at HowardUniversity, you know, and to
that many more universities,you're helping that many more
people.
Thank you for doing that.
Now, back to your, uh, searchbackground, I, I admire the fact
(06:51):
that you have over four decadesof search experience, and I was
wondering if you can share withthe audience some of the key
attributes that companies arelooking for these days, and
individuals, and C suitepositions, and how they can
develop these qualities.
Bill Ferguson (07:08):
CEO succession and search work, so it's a very
relevant question.
Our industry, historically, hasbeen a very entrepreneurial
industry.
And I would say over mylifetime, uh, it's experienced a
fundamental metamorphosis.
It's gone from basically localto global.
It's gone from private topublic.
(07:31):
And it's gone from basicallyregional to institutional.
And as it's morphed and scaled,leadership has become
increasingly important inrunning these big enterprises.
And in an industry where a lotof people start off as
dealmakers, It's not always easyto make that transition into
leadership.
(07:51):
And what we look for, what ourclients look for in succession
candidates is really at theintersection of what I would
call a leadership and strategy.
Great CEOs have to be greatleaders, but they also have to
be great strategic thinkers.
And those are two skill sets,David, that are not easy to
(08:12):
learn.
You can't necessarily pick up abook, read a book and become a
great leader.
Or become a great strategist,the only advice I can give
younger people growing acrosscorporate America is find a good
mentor, find somebody whorespects who is greatly and is a
(08:34):
great strategist and just doeverything you can to absorb
what that person does, why theydo it and why they're
successful.
David Kong (08:44):
You're so right.
Leadership and strategy are twoimportant attributes and it's.
Very difficult to develop thesequalities organically.
You've got to work for people orwith people that have those
skills and you learn by osmosisor you have someone mentor you.
That's how we can start todevelop those skills.
(09:04):
So thank you for sharing thatvery important.
Absolutely.
Now, I'm also curious, what aresome of the favorite questions
that you like to ask candidatesand.
What are some of the answersthat stood out in your mind?
Bill Ferguson (09:17):
It's a good question, David.
I always like to ask thequestion, why?
And when I'm interviewing acandidate, I also encourage my
clients to do the same thing.
I like to ask two questions.
One is why they feel they arequalified for the job.
And then secondly, I like to askwhy they're interested.
(09:42):
And I can learn very quicklyabout how somebody thinks, how
well prepared they are, andultimately how much they take
responsibility for their owncareer and success.
Because with good people, it'snot about how many opportunities
(10:03):
they're going to have.
It's a question about making theright choices as far as the
opportunities that they do take.
And that's all about beingthoughtful and ultimately being
prepared and really knowingyourself, you know, what you're
good at, what you're not, whatyou like, what you don't, and
being prepared to say no insituations where you don't think
(10:27):
there's a good fit, and alsobeing prepared to aggressively
go after something that you feelreally would match well your
skill set and your abilities.
David Kong (10:37):
Very good advice.
Thank you for sharing that.
I am also curious, what would beyour advice for someone who is
preparing for an interview?
And is there a differencebetween preparing for an
interview with a recruiterversus a company?
Bill Ferguson (10:55):
It depends on the recruiter, David, and how good
an interviewer they are.
I think at the levels where wework, where I work, clients
expect me to interview asthoroughly as they're going to
interview, and if they don'tpass my test, chances they
aren't going to pass theclient's test either.
So it's just extremely importantto really dive deeply on their
(11:21):
qualifications, their interestlevel.
And I find over time thathistory repeats itself.
And so if I walk through aperson's career, and I start to
see certain fact patterns,certain behavior patterns, if I
see people who get knocked tothe ground and get back up, and
(11:44):
they never quit.
Or they have an idea, it's acreative idea, and they run it
to ground.
And It may not work, but thatdoesn't stop them from doing
something again.
It's really all about theconviction, the tenacity, and
quite honestly, the creativity.
Um, to really step outside thebox, to some degree like I did
(12:08):
when I formed the company,because there was no company
like that I could pattern after.
Um, but those types ofattributes speak volumes to me,
uh, relative to who the personis and what they've accomplished
in their life.
And chances are what we hopethem to accomplish in the
future.
David Kong (12:26):
Such good advice, Ian.
And like you're saying, historyrepeats itself.
A person's track record can tellyou a lot about that person.
Let's talk about your new book,Living Beyond Your Dreams.
I love this book, by the way.
I've read it twice now.
Let's start with your motivationbehind this book.
What, what are you hoping toachieve?
Bill Ferguson (12:47):
In faith of full disclosure, I feel a little bit
like a person, you know, piningupon a stock and they want to
know whether I'm an investor ornot.
Just for all your audience, youare one of the 24 CEOs in
essence profiled in the book andvery blessed to have you
participate and share your lifestory with me, which was once
again, was fascinating and we'llget into that a little later,
(13:09):
but thank you for being part ofwhat was just a marvelous
journey.
What motivated me to write thebook, to be frank, was our
industry, which is arguably thelargest industry in the country
when you look at it in itstotality.
And quite honestly, the largestindustry in the world had become
so ineffective at identifyingand recruiting diverse talent.
(13:33):
I had a number of friends, I'msure you did too, who would go
to Wharton, they'd go toStanford, they'd go to Harvard,
and they'd interview eightstudents, and all diverse
students, and these studentswould end up going to Goldman
Sachs, they'd go to McKinsey,And these friends of ours would
(13:57):
have the audacity to come backand say, Bill, I tried.
And I said, No, you didn't.
You failed because you looked inthe wrong places.
Okay.
So the whole genesis behind thefoundation is to identify
colleges, uh, that were rich inundergraduate diversity.
(14:20):
And in many cases hadundergraduate real estate minors
or related minors, so that weknew the diversity was there,
uh, we knew they were interestedin our industry and then our job
was to go out and find the bestand the brightest and in
essence, give them kind ofexposure to the foundation.
(14:41):
And for those who were acceptedinto the foundation to then
introduce them to companies inour industry.
We asked him said, okay, well,if you can't find these
students, we'll go out and findthem and we'll introduce them to
your company and all the greatcompanies across our industry.
So the reality was that a lot ofthe CEOs were just looking in
(15:02):
the wrong places to source thetalent, and I think we've
cracked the code in doing that,and that's why the foundation
has been as successful as ithas.
And just in case you're Audiencemay or may not be familiar with
the foundation.
We have a very special valueproposition for the students to
get into the foundation.
(15:24):
And we accepted 50 sophomoresout of 200 applicants for this
last class.
They get tuition assistance.
We give them 10, 000 in tuitionassistance.
The average tuition is 22, 000.
So we pay for about half of it.
We give them holisticmentorship.
Which means both professionalmentorship, which prepares them
(15:46):
for a career in the industry,but we also give them personal
mentorship.
We assign a coach to everystudent, and David is, we'll
talk about this in a bit.
The hurdles these students face,even in getting through college,
are monumental.
The cost factor is a big factor,and a lot of them try to get
through college, earning amodest amount of income, working
(16:09):
three or four jobs.
So the tuition assistance ismeant to allow them to really
focus on going to school and notmaking money.
And then on the mentorship side,you'd be amazed at how many of
their mothers and fathers askthem to quit school to go to
work to help pay for the family.
Or, heaven forbid, you get adrug addicted brother or sister.
(16:30):
who says, why don't you c side?
And this is a lot e money.
You can sell drugs a career.
So there are a issues thataffect these we're not there to
help t Chances, they're notgoing to graduate, and if they
don't graduate, we're nevergoing to have an opportunity to
(16:52):
give them exposure to what youand I feel is probably the
greatest industry in the world,and then we find them their
career opportunities as well astheir summer internships.
So the foundation is reallydesigned to do everything we can
to allow these students to havea fulfilling and rich experience
at the undergraduate level,graduate, and then it's up to
(17:15):
our corporate partners.
To give them a great experienceonce they join the company's
full time.
So it is a very special valueproposition that fortunately a
lot of the students feel is awonderful opportunity for them.
David Kong (17:29):
I applaud you for this wonderful undertaking.
You're helping so many peoplethat are underprivileged and
would otherwise not do well ornot be in the industry.
So I appreciate all that you doto cultivate our leaders of
tomorrow.
Thank you.
Bill Ferguson (17:45):
Yeah, it is amazing, David, because a lot of
these are our first generationcollege attendees.
And most of them, none of theirrelatives or anybody they know
has ever been in our business.
So the opportunity to exposethem to the business and really
give them a chance to learn thebusiness, it's a game changing
situation.
(18:06):
And I just feel so blessed to beable to offer them the
opportunity.
David Kong (18:11):
It is game changing.
Now, your book covers 11principles, and I love all of
them.
But two particularly resonatedwith me because that happens to
be the advice my parents gave mewhen I left Hong Kong.
And these two chapters,Character Counts and Get Back
Up, tremendously resonated withme.
(18:31):
Would you mind to share thebackground and advice from these
two chapters?
Bill Ferguson (18:36):
I feel that integrity is fundamental to any
great leader, to really anygreat human being.
There are many differentopportunities for us to cut
corners and do the right thing,but maybe totally not do the
right thing.
And, and the reality is that Ifound in all my days of working
with leaders and assessingleaders.
(18:58):
That integrity is fundamental.
In fact, if you look at thetagline on my email, I said,
leadership is all abouthumility, it's all about
integrity, integrity, and it'sall about generosity.
And I have conviction around allthree of those attributes to
(19:19):
ultimately be a successfulleader.
It reminds me of my interviewwith Tom Baltimore.
at Park Hotels.
And he said to me one time, hesaid, Bill, the more you give,
the more you get.
And I said, Tom, what do youmean by that?
And he said, I spend atremendous amount of time
(19:40):
developing people.
And it takes a lot of time and alot of energy.
But I get so much back for thatbecause they continue to grow
and be successful.
And I feel like I've made adifference in their lives.
It's just harkens back to thiswhole idea of integrity.
(20:00):
And doing the right thing andbeing selfless.
David Kong (20:03):
Yeah, I enjoy reading that chapter very much.
And another chapter, find yourchampions, also resonated with
me.
And this ties into ourconversation earlier about
mentorship to develop leadershipand strategy skills.
Would you mind to share sometips on finding and
(20:23):
collaborating with champions?
Bill Ferguson (20:26):
It's a situation where I think as a younger
person, David, you have to bebold.
For instance, I think aboutLeslie Hale.
And Leslie's also profiled inthe book.
The CEO of RLJ Lodging Trust.
I think she's been interviewedon your show before.
And Leslie was bold enough to,what I call, redefine her
Pearson.
(20:46):
Tom was in the office, I can'tremember if it was every
Saturday or every Sunday, but hewas in the office one of those
two days every week.
And she made a point of being inthere with him and learning from
him and so forth.
And some may think it's a littlebold to say, I'm going to
redefine my peer set as TomBaltimore.
(21:07):
But look where she is today.
She's the CEO of ROJ.
She's on the board of DeltaAero.
She was on the board of Macy'sbefore that.
And she did it all respectfully.
But she knew that she couldlearn a lot from Tom.
And the same thing with JodiMcLean at Edens.
I think when she came intoEdens, Joe Edens was still
(21:28):
running the company, andobviously hard to get a CEO's
time.
She knew that he came in earlyevery morning, and guess what?
Guess who else was in earlyevery morning?
She was.
And so she had time to spendwith him, and to learn from him,
and to talk to him.
And once again, it gets back toredefining your Peer Set.
She did it respectfully, but sheknew If she was going to
(21:52):
ultimately learn and besuccessful, she didn't know if
she was going to run thatcompany or not.
As it turns out, she did.
You have to find your champions.
You have to be bold enough todevelop a relationship, learn
from them and stay with them andsuccess speaks for itself.
David Kong (22:09):
Yeah, for sure.
This ties into the next chapter,which is live to learn.
I've always been a fan of.
The continuous learning habit,and I, I love this because if
you want to be successful, youhave to put in the effort and
you have to want to learn.
So, would you mind to share theessence in this chapter?
Bill Ferguson (22:31):
I think about our interview.
You are a person who was aconstant learner, whether it was
a Hyatt or even before when youwere in Hawaii, when you were in
the restaurant businessinitially, you were always
learning and you were not onlylearning about the business.
But you were learning aboutleadership and different
leadership styles and whatworked and I can remember when I
was interviewing you said at onepoint I didn't really have the
(22:53):
charisma of a lot of leaders andI think that's what's required
to be a leader and you werearound enough leaders and you
looked at the ones that weresuccessful and you said not all
leaders need to have charisma.
I think you used the word ooze,Chris, and you're exactly right.
I always tell clients, don'tfall in love with the
(23:14):
personality, fall in love withthe person, and look where you
ended up.
And you weren't afraid though,to your credit, you weren't
afraid to voice your ambition.
And that is so critical, andit's much different than
charisma.
You were bold enough to tellpeople ultimately where you
wanted to go, and you wanted tobe a CEO, and guess what, you
ended up there.
(23:35):
Right.
But you did it respectfully, butyou were always learning and you
weren't afraid to be who youwere.
And at the end of the day, youwere a great leader.
So kudos to you for your careerand your success.
David Kong (23:50):
Thanks for sharing that story.
I appreciate that.
Now, many leaders that weinterviewed said challenges are
opportunities in disguise.
So your chapter is on get backup, play the hand you've dealt
with and Don't settle.
Deeply resonated with me becausequite frequently we go through
(24:12):
challenges.
We feel defeated, deflated, andour minds are not in a good
place.
And we need to wake up andrealize that it could be an
opportunity in disguise.
And it's our mental attitudethat actually determines how
things pan out.
Can you share some of thehighlights in these chapters?
Bill Ferguson (24:32):
Oh, I can indeed.
premise behind the book when youtalk about living beyond your
dreams.
What I was trying to do was toprofile the people who became
CEOs and the hurdles they had toovercome to get there, because I
would argue that yourgeneration, my generation,
earlier generations, when, youknow, you're not a white Anglo
(24:56):
Saxon male, uh, you haveadditional hurdles that you have
to get over, uh, in order tobecome great CEOs.
I think we're more enlightenedtoday.
Uh, than we were a couple ofgenerations before, uh, but
still, and that's what thebook's all about, is to show the
students that if you persevereand stay the course and don't
(25:17):
give up, uh, because there aregoing to be hurdles put in front
of you that not everybody hasput in front of them, uh, they
can succeed.
There, there are a lot of greatexamples, and if you think about
Daryl Carter, uh, who's a dearfriend, uh, Daryl's African
American.
He runs the largest privateaffordable housing business in
the country.
He was at the University ofMichigan as an undergraduate
(25:41):
student.
And David, you're talking 19,maybe 75, 76.
And, and a professor took himaside one day, David, and you
read about this in the book, andsaid, son, you don't belong
here.
And he said, what do you mean?
(26:02):
And he said, son, you don'tbelong here.
So he went home to his mother.
And he said, mom, what did thisperson mean?
And she said, yeah, she, she hada great response.
She said, I don't care what hemeant.
You go back to school tomorrow.
And you finish school.
(26:23):
And you embark upon a careerthat you're passionate about.
And you know what?
You're going to be successful.
And that's exactly what he did.
And, and if it wasn't for hismom saying, okay, you stay the
course, you don't give up orwhatever, you're going to be,
you're going to be successful.
And, and that's just oneexample.
I think about Mitch Shaw thatno, right.
(26:45):
When Mitt came over to theStates, his dad owned a hotel,
and the tender age is 16 yearsold.
He was put running the frontdesk, and he ran into all kinds
of customers who were rude, andthey weren't happy with what was
going on.
Probably a limited service hotelis my guess.
(27:07):
And there were days where hewould walk home with his head
hanging down and say, is thisworth it?
Or he would see all his friendsat the playground and he'd have
to go back to work and you knowwhat he got through all that.
And he said, you know what?
I'm going to stay the course.
Uh, I have an obligation to myfamily and I, I like this
(27:27):
industry and I think it's goingto be great.
And there's just another exampleof somebody who persevered.
And then the last, the lastperson once again is Leslie
Hale.
Leslie grew up in Washington, D.
C.
The South part of L.
A.
Okay, where too many people likeher became a statistic,
literally, and she and herparents on the weekends will
(27:52):
drive the family outside ofSouthern L.
A.
And say, you know what?
This is there.
There is a little life.
And so she got through highschool, went to a great college,
went on to Harvard BusinessSchool, and she is who she is.
But it would have been so easyto paint her life as one where
you're never going to get out ofthose surroundings and make a
(28:14):
difference.
And yet she persevered and shedid it.
So there, those are threeexamples of people who I have
enormous respect for.
I know you do too, because weknow them all in our industry
and they're great leaders.
But they ran into theseobstacles and they overcame
them.
And thank God they did becausethey've been great mentors and
(28:36):
developers of subsequentgenerations of talent.
And we're very blessed to havethem as friends and peers in the
industry, for sure.
David Kong (28:44):
Thanks for sharing these very inspiring stories.
The book is chock full of them.
And that's why I read it twice.
I find inspiration every time Iread it.
I feel so empowered afterreading those chapters.
So thank you.
Appreciate the hard work inputting this book together.
I highly recommend it.
We're coming to the end of theshow.
I was wondering if you couldshare a final piece of advice on
(29:07):
self empowerment.
Bill Ferguson (29:10):
Yeah, I think self empowerment is a
combination of factors.
I think it starts with yourheart or drive.
You've got to have thosefundamental genetics or learned
attributes.
And then you have to be smartenough to surround yourself with
people who can help you developinto a great leader.
(29:33):
And, and so I think it's acombination of having that
heart, that soul, thatconviction, and then just being
smart enough, thoughtful enoughto surround yourself with people
that you respect and are willingto mentor you and develop you
and you have to be humble enoughto learn from them.
(29:54):
And get through whatever lifethrows at you.
So it's a little bit of theinside and it's a little bit of
the outside that allows peopleto become self empowered.
Yeah.
David Kong (30:04):
Very good advice.
Thank you.
I appreciate you sharing that.
Bill Ferguson (30:07):
Yeah.
And Bill,
David Kong (30:08):
thank you for taking the time to be on our show to
share your wisdom.
I find your insightstremendously helpful and
inspirational in many ways.
Thank you, Bill.
Bill Ferguson (30:18):
Thank you.
Thank you, David, for all youdid in our industry.
And how many people youmentioned, you were a great peer
to so many of the great CEOs andthis next chapter is wonderful,
the mission you're on now, andI, I honestly believe that the
best way to address the economicdivide in this country is to do
what we're doing, which is togive people a great opportunity.
(30:42):
And let them self actualize.
So, thank you for all you'redoing as
David Kong (30:46):
well.
I absolutely agree.
Thank you again.
Bill Ferguson (30:49):
For
David Kong (30:49):
our audience, if you enjoyed this interview, I hope
you can join us on our website.
It's personalstories.
com You'll find over 250 otherinterviews.
We'll hope to see you there.
Thank you.
Bill Ferguson (31:03):
Thank you, David.
Appreciate the opportunity.
Greetings.
I'm David Kong, the founder andprincipal of It's Personal
Stories.
Today, I'm delighted to welcomeBill Ferguson.
He is the founder and cochairman of Ferguson Partners.
It's a global talent managementcompany specializing in real
estate, hospitality, andhospital services.
(00:21):
It's a great pleasure to haveyou, Bill.
Bill Ferguson (00:23):
Well, David, thank you so much for having me
on your show.
You've had a wonderful list ofvery impressive speakers.
I'm honored to be part of thatcompany.
David Kong (00:33):
It's wonderful to have you.
Bill, let's start with yourcareer journey.
I have known you for a while andI've also read up on you.
You've had such a remarkablejourney.
Would you mind to share some ofthe key inflection points that
shaped that journey and led youto your current success?
Bill Ferguson (00:51):
Yeah, it was, it was an interesting journey.
When I get out of businessschool, I was always intrigued
with the recruiting business.
I actually had an offer comingout of business school to become
the assistant.
To the chairman of one of therecruiting firms, and I thought
that was a little bit of heresy,but I was always intrigued by
the business.
And so I ended up joiningRussell Reynolds in the Chicago.
(01:15):
I became the assistant to thepresident, so I ended up in a
role that I thought I reallyshouldn't end up in 2 years
before when I went to GeneralMills.
I spent about 9 years atReynolds and great training, co
head of the real estatebusiness.
When I decided one day, David,that I wanted to be more
involved in some of thestrategic conversations that our
(01:38):
clients were having, I wantedmore access to the boardroom.
I came up with the concept ofplagiarizing the old Booz Allen
Hamilton.
And a lot of your viewers maynot remember, but Booz Allen
back in the day, and we'retalking the early 80s anyway,
85, 86, was actually in thesearch business.
(01:59):
They were in the managementconsulting business.
And they were in the executivecompensation business.
And I said, that sounds like aninteresting aggregation of
services because you can worknot only to help a client think
through their strategy, but alsoexecute.
And I really wanted to go outand apply this concept to our
(02:20):
industry, which I define as realassets, which is everything from
real estate to infrastructure.
I knew I couldn't be everythingto everybody as an
entrepreneurial firm.
I knew I wanted to be globalbecause firms like Blackstone
and Hilton were global firms.
And so I embarked upon thisjourney.
I created a firm that was aglobal talent management firm.
(02:42):
And we have businesses now,besides our board and C suite
search business, we have threeconsulting businesses, executive
comp, management consulting, andleadership consulting.
And they all work together toserve pretty much the entire
spectrum.
of talent management services aclient can have.
(03:02):
So it's been a greatrelationship approach for us,
and it's worked very well.
We've been in business for 35years, and we've at least done
something right.
So, it was just one of thosethings where I said, I want to
try it.
I knew if it didn't work, Icould always go back to Russell
Reynolds or another search firm.
And fortunately, I've neverlooked back.
So it's been a good story.
David Kong (03:22):
Congratulations on your tremendous success and
Ferguson Partners is such a wellrespected global company.
I'm delighted to have you on ourshow to share your wisdom with
the audience.
Now, aside from FergusonPartners, you also founded the
Centers of LeadershipExcellence.
It's a nonprofit and I waswondering if you can share the
(03:45):
mission and the impact thatyou're hoping to achieve through
this foundation.
Bill Ferguson (03:50):
It's interesting, David, since you were one of the
great CEOs in the hospitalitybusiness, it did all start
around the hospitality business.
Arne Sorensen was a dear friendand he died prematurely from
pancreatic cancer.
And the Marriott family made a20 billion gift.
To Howard University, and theycreated the Marriott Sorensen
(04:14):
Hospitality Center forLeadership Excellence, and the
concept behind the center wasthat they wanted to expose
talented undergraduate students,typically diverse undergraduate
students, to a career inhospitality.
So they created a hospitalityminor.
Uh, they hired a director to runthe program, and they started
(04:38):
teaching, I think, a couple ofcourses a semester, and may now
be up to as many as five, uh,courses per semester.
And then Marriott went out oftheir way with these students
who were minoring inhospitality, and there were
probably 15 to 20 at a time.
They helped them find summerjobs as sophomores and juniors.
and full time jobs as seniors.
(05:01):
And I looked at this concept andI said, if you scale this
concept from one college,meaning Howard, to many, maybe
25 colleges, and could access amuch broader population of
talented students, and providethem with an introduction to not
(05:21):
only the hospitality business,but all other facets of real
estate and infrastructure, youcould really create.
a wonderful conduit ofleadership talent.
Many students are firstgeneration going to college.
Very few of them do anythingabout our industry.
And so we started the foundationabout three years ago.
(05:43):
It's been marvelouslysuccessful.
We've raised well over 8million, and we now have 150
students in the program, andwe've got another 50 corporate
partners who will hire thesestudents either as summer
interns, as sophomores andjuniors, or full time as
(06:03):
seniors.
So we're very blessed.
Thank goodness for Marriott.
Thank goodness for Arnie.
Uh, because it just has been awonderful and very meaningful
experience for me.
And I count my blessings everyday.
Arnie was a very special leaderand I just have always been very
honored to know him.
And it's great to createsomething that should be a
(06:26):
legacy to him as well.
David Kong (06:29):
Thank you for taking a very good idea from Barney
Sorensen and Marriott a stepfurther and expanding it into 25
universities.
You're right, why stop at HowardUniversity, you know, and to
that many more universities,you're helping that many more
people.
Thank you for doing that.
Now, back to your, uh, searchbackground, I, I admire the fact
(06:51):
that you have over four decadesof search experience, and I was
wondering if you can share withthe audience some of the key
attributes that companies arelooking for these days, and
individuals, and C suitepositions, and how they can
develop these qualities.
Bill Ferguson (07:08):
CEO succession and search work, so it's a very
relevant question.
Our industry, historically, hasbeen a very entrepreneurial
industry.
And I would say over mylifetime, uh, it's experienced a
fundamental metamorphosis.
It's gone from basically localto global.
It's gone from private topublic.
(07:31):
And it's gone from basicallyregional to institutional.
And as it's morphed and scaled,leadership has become
increasingly important inrunning these big enterprises.
And in an industry where a lotof people start off as
dealmakers, It's not always easyto make that transition into
leadership.
(07:51):
And what we look for, what ourclients look for in succession
candidates is really at theintersection of what I would
call a leadership and strategy.
Great CEOs have to be greatleaders, but they also have to
be great strategic thinkers.
And those are two skill sets,David, that are not easy to
(08:12):
learn.
You can't necessarily pick up abook, read a book and become a
great leader.
Or become a great strategist,the only advice I can give
younger people growing acrosscorporate America is find a good
mentor, find somebody whorespects who is greatly and is a
(08:34):
great strategist and just doeverything you can to absorb
what that person does, why theydo it and why they're
successful.
David Kong (08:44):
You're so right.
Leadership and strategy are twoimportant attributes and it's.
Very difficult to develop thesequalities organically.
You've got to work for people orwith people that have those
skills and you learn by osmosisor you have someone mentor you.
That's how we can start todevelop those skills.
(09:04):
So thank you for sharing thatvery important.
Absolutely.
Now, I'm also curious, what aresome of the favorite questions
that you like to ask candidatesand.
What are some of the answersthat stood out in your mind?
Bill Ferguson (09:17):
It's a good question, David.
I always like to ask thequestion, why?
And when I'm interviewing acandidate, I also encourage my
clients to do the same thing.
I like to ask two questions.
One is why they feel they arequalified for the job.
And then secondly, I like to askwhy they're interested.
(09:42):
And I can learn very quicklyabout how somebody thinks, how
well prepared they are, andultimately how much they take
responsibility for their owncareer and success.
Because with good people, it'snot about how many opportunities
(10:03):
they're going to have.
It's a question about making theright choices as far as the
opportunities that they do take.
And that's all about beingthoughtful and ultimately being
prepared and really knowingyourself, you know, what you're
good at, what you're not, whatyou like, what you don't, and
being prepared to say no insituations where you don't think
(10:27):
there's a good fit, and alsobeing prepared to aggressively
go after something that you feelreally would match well your
skill set and your abilities.
David Kong (10:37):
Very good advice.
Thank you for sharing that.
I am also curious, what would beyour advice for someone who is
preparing for an interview?
And is there a differencebetween preparing for an
interview with a recruiterversus a company?
Bill Ferguson (10:55):
It depends on the recruiter, David, and how good
an interviewer they are.
I think at the levels where wework, where I work, clients
expect me to interview asthoroughly as they're going to
interview, and if they don'tpass my test, chances they
aren't going to pass theclient's test either.
So it's just extremely importantto really dive deeply on their
(11:21):
qualifications, their interestlevel.
And I find over time thathistory repeats itself.
And so if I walk through aperson's career, and I start to
see certain fact patterns,certain behavior patterns, if I
see people who get knocked tothe ground and get back up, and
(11:44):
they never quit.
Or they have an idea, it's acreative idea, and they run it
to ground.
And It may not work, but thatdoesn't stop them from doing
something again.
It's really all about theconviction, the tenacity, and
quite honestly, the creativity.
Um, to really step outside thebox, to some degree like I did
(12:08):
when I formed the company,because there was no company
like that I could pattern after.
Um, but those types ofattributes speak volumes to me,
uh, relative to who the personis and what they've accomplished
in their life.
And chances are what we hopethem to accomplish in the
future.
David Kong (12:26):
Such good advice, Ian.
And like you're saying, historyrepeats itself.
A person's track record can tellyou a lot about that person.
Let's talk about your new book,Living Beyond Your Dreams.
I love this book, by the way.
I've read it twice now.
Let's start with your motivationbehind this book.
What, what are you hoping toachieve?
Bill Ferguson (12:47):
In faith of full disclosure, I feel a little bit
like a person, you know, piningupon a stock and they want to
know whether I'm an investor ornot.
Just for all your audience, youare one of the 24 CEOs in
essence profiled in the book andvery blessed to have you
participate and share your lifestory with me, which was once
again, was fascinating and we'llget into that a little later,
(13:09):
but thank you for being part ofwhat was just a marvelous
journey.
What motivated me to write thebook, to be frank, was our
industry, which is arguably thelargest industry in the country
when you look at it in itstotality.
And quite honestly, the largestindustry in the world had become
so ineffective at identifyingand recruiting diverse talent.
(13:33):
I had a number of friends, I'msure you did too, who would go
to Wharton, they'd go toStanford, they'd go to Harvard,
and they'd interview eightstudents, and all diverse
students, and these studentswould end up going to Goldman
Sachs, they'd go to McKinsey,And these friends of ours would
(13:57):
have the audacity to come backand say, Bill, I tried.
And I said, No, you didn't.
You failed because you looked inthe wrong places.
Okay.
So the whole genesis behind thefoundation is to identify
colleges, uh, that were rich inundergraduate diversity.
(14:20):
And in many cases hadundergraduate real estate minors
or related minors, so that weknew the diversity was there,
uh, we knew they were interestedin our industry and then our job
was to go out and find the bestand the brightest and in
essence, give them kind ofexposure to the foundation.
(14:41):
And for those who were acceptedinto the foundation to then
introduce them to companies inour industry.
We asked him said, okay, well,if you can't find these
students, we'll go out and findthem and we'll introduce them to
your company and all the greatcompanies across our industry.
So the reality was that a lot ofthe CEOs were just looking in
(15:02):
the wrong places to source thetalent, and I think we've
cracked the code in doing that,and that's why the foundation
has been as successful as ithas.
And just in case you're Audiencemay or may not be familiar with
the foundation.
We have a very special valueproposition for the students to
get into the foundation.
(15:24):
And we accepted 50 sophomoresout of 200 applicants for this
last class.
They get tuition assistance.
We give them 10, 000 in tuitionassistance.
The average tuition is 22, 000.
So we pay for about half of it.
We give them holisticmentorship.
Which means both professionalmentorship, which prepares them
(15:46):
for a career in the industry,but we also give them personal
mentorship.
We assign a coach to everystudent, and David is, we'll
talk about this in a bit.
The hurdles these students face,even in getting through college,
are monumental.
The cost factor is a big factor,and a lot of them try to get
through college, earning amodest amount of income, working
(16:09):
three or four jobs.
So the tuition assistance ismeant to allow them to really
focus on going to school and notmaking money.
And then on the mentorship side,you'd be amazed at how many of
their mothers and fathers askthem to quit school to go to
work to help pay for the family.
Or, heaven forbid, you get adrug addicted brother or sister.
(16:30):
who says, why don't you c side?
And this is a lot e money.
You can sell drugs a career.
So there are a issues thataffect these we're not there to
help t Chances, they're notgoing to graduate, and if they
don't graduate, we're nevergoing to have an opportunity to
(16:52):
give them exposure to what youand I feel is probably the
greatest industry in the world,and then we find them their
career opportunities as well astheir summer internships.
So the foundation is reallydesigned to do everything we can
to allow these students to havea fulfilling and rich experience
at the undergraduate level,graduate, and then it's up to
(17:15):
our corporate partners.
To give them a great experienceonce they join the company's
full time.
So it is a very special valueproposition that fortunately a
lot of the students feel is awonderful opportunity for them.
David Kong (17:29):
I applaud you for this wonderful undertaking.
You're helping so many peoplethat are underprivileged and
would otherwise not do well ornot be in the industry.
So I appreciate all that you doto cultivate our leaders of
tomorrow.
Thank you.
Bill Ferguson (17:45):
Yeah, it is amazing, David, because a lot of
these are our first generationcollege attendees.
And most of them, none of theirrelatives or anybody they know
has ever been in our business.
So the opportunity to exposethem to the business and really
give them a chance to learn thebusiness, it's a game changing
situation.
(18:06):
And I just feel so blessed to beable to offer them the
opportunity.
David Kong (18:11):
It is game changing.
Now, your book covers 11principles, and I love all of
them.
But two particularly resonatedwith me because that happens to
be the advice my parents gave mewhen I left Hong Kong.
And these two chapters,Character Counts and Get Back
Up, tremendously resonated withme.
(18:31):
Would you mind to share thebackground and advice from these
two chapters?
Bill Ferguson (18:36):
I feel that integrity is fundamental to any
great leader, to really anygreat human being.
There are many differentopportunities for us to cut
corners and do the right thing,but maybe totally not do the
right thing.
And, and the reality is that Ifound in all my days of working
with leaders and assessingleaders.
(18:58):
That integrity is fundamental.
In fact, if you look at thetagline on my email, I said,
leadership is all abouthumility, it's all about
integrity, integrity, and it'sall about generosity.
And I have conviction around allthree of those attributes to
(19:19):
ultimately be a successfulleader.
It reminds me of my interviewwith Tom Baltimore.
at Park Hotels.
And he said to me one time, hesaid, Bill, the more you give,
the more you get.
And I said, Tom, what do youmean by that?
And he said, I spend atremendous amount of time
(19:40):
developing people.
And it takes a lot of time and alot of energy.
But I get so much back for thatbecause they continue to grow
and be successful.
And I feel like I've made adifference in their lives.
It's just harkens back to thiswhole idea of integrity.
(20:00):
And doing the right thing andbeing selfless.
David Kong (20:03):
Yeah, I enjoy reading that chapter very much.
And another chapter, find yourchampions, also resonated with
me.
And this ties into ourconversation earlier about
mentorship to develop leadershipand strategy skills.
Would you mind to share sometips on finding and
(20:23):
collaborating with champions?
Bill Ferguson (20:26):
It's a situation where I think as a younger
person, David, you have to bebold.
For instance, I think aboutLeslie Hale.
And Leslie's also profiled inthe book.
The CEO of RLJ Lodging Trust.
I think she's been interviewedon your show before.
And Leslie was bold enough to,what I call, redefine her
Pearson.
(20:46):
Tom was in the office, I can'tremember if it was every
Saturday or every Sunday, but hewas in the office one of those
two days every week.
And she made a point of being inthere with him and learning from
him and so forth.
And some may think it's a littlebold to say, I'm going to
redefine my peer set as TomBaltimore.
(21:07):
But look where she is today.
She's the CEO of ROJ.
She's on the board of DeltaAero.
She was on the board of Macy'sbefore that.
And she did it all respectfully.
But she knew that she couldlearn a lot from Tom.
And the same thing with JodiMcLean at Edens.
I think when she came intoEdens, Joe Edens was still
(21:28):
running the company, andobviously hard to get a CEO's
time.
She knew that he came in earlyevery morning, and guess what?
Guess who else was in earlyevery morning?
She was.
And so she had time to spendwith him, and to learn from him,
and to talk to him.
And once again, it gets back toredefining your Peer Set.
She did it respectfully, but sheknew If she was going to
(21:52):
ultimately learn and besuccessful, she didn't know if
she was going to run thatcompany or not.
As it turns out, she did.
You have to find your champions.
You have to be bold enough todevelop a relationship, learn
from them and stay with them andsuccess speaks for itself.
David Kong (22:09):
Yeah, for sure.
This ties into the next chapter,which is live to learn.
I've always been a fan of.
The continuous learning habit,and I, I love this because if
you want to be successful, youhave to put in the effort and
you have to want to learn.
So, would you mind to share theessence in this chapter?
Bill Ferguson (22:31):
I think about our interview.
You are a person who was aconstant learner, whether it was
a Hyatt or even before when youwere in Hawaii, when you were in
the restaurant businessinitially, you were always
learning and you were not onlylearning about the business.
But you were learning aboutleadership and different
leadership styles and whatworked and I can remember when I
was interviewing you said at onepoint I didn't really have the
(22:53):
charisma of a lot of leaders andI think that's what's required
to be a leader and you werearound enough leaders and you
looked at the ones that weresuccessful and you said not all
leaders need to have charisma.
I think you used the word ooze,Chris, and you're exactly right.
I always tell clients, don'tfall in love with the
(23:14):
personality, fall in love withthe person, and look where you
ended up.
And you weren't afraid though,to your credit, you weren't
afraid to voice your ambition.
And that is so critical, andit's much different than
charisma.
You were bold enough to tellpeople ultimately where you
wanted to go, and you wanted tobe a CEO, and guess what, you
ended up there.
(23:35):
Right.
But you did it respectfully, butyou were always learning and you
weren't afraid to be who youwere.
And at the end of the day, youwere a great leader.
So kudos to you for your careerand your success.
David Kong (23:50):
Thanks for sharing that story.
I appreciate that.
Now, many leaders that weinterviewed said challenges are
opportunities in disguise.
So your chapter is on get backup, play the hand you've dealt
with and Don't settle.
Deeply resonated with me becausequite frequently we go through
(24:12):
challenges.
We feel defeated, deflated, andour minds are not in a good
place.
And we need to wake up andrealize that it could be an
opportunity in disguise.
And it's our mental attitudethat actually determines how
things pan out.
Can you share some of thehighlights in these chapters?
Bill Ferguson (24:32):
Oh, I can indeed.
premise behind the book when youtalk about living beyond your
dreams.
What I was trying to do was toprofile the people who became
CEOs and the hurdles they had toovercome to get there, because I
would argue that yourgeneration, my generation,
earlier generations, when, youknow, you're not a white Anglo
(24:56):
Saxon male, uh, you haveadditional hurdles that you have
to get over, uh, in order tobecome great CEOs.
I think we're more enlightenedtoday.
Uh, than we were a couple ofgenerations before, uh, but
still, and that's what thebook's all about, is to show the
students that if you persevereand stay the course and don't
(25:17):
give up, uh, because there aregoing to be hurdles put in front
of you that not everybody hasput in front of them, uh, they
can succeed.
There, there are a lot of greatexamples, and if you think about
Daryl Carter, uh, who's a dearfriend, uh, Daryl's African
American.
He runs the largest privateaffordable housing business in
the country.
He was at the University ofMichigan as an undergraduate
(25:41):
student.
And David, you're talking 19,maybe 75, 76.
And, and a professor took himaside one day, David, and you
read about this in the book, andsaid, son, you don't belong
here.
And he said, what do you mean?
(26:02):
And he said, son, you don'tbelong here.
So he went home to his mother.
And he said, mom, what did thisperson mean?
And she said, yeah, she, she hada great response.
She said, I don't care what hemeant.
You go back to school tomorrow.
And you finish school.
(26:23):
And you embark upon a careerthat you're passionate about.
And you know what?
You're going to be successful.
And that's exactly what he did.
And, and if it wasn't for hismom saying, okay, you stay the
course, you don't give up orwhatever, you're going to be,
you're going to be successful.
And, and that's just oneexample.
I think about Mitch Shaw thatno, right.
(26:45):
When Mitt came over to theStates, his dad owned a hotel,
and the tender age is 16 yearsold.
He was put running the frontdesk, and he ran into all kinds
of customers who were rude, andthey weren't happy with what was
going on.
Probably a limited service hotelis my guess.
(27:07):
And there were days where hewould walk home with his head
hanging down and say, is thisworth it?
Or he would see all his friendsat the playground and he'd have
to go back to work and you knowwhat he got through all that.
And he said, you know what?
I'm going to stay the course.
Uh, I have an obligation to myfamily and I, I like this
(27:27):
industry and I think it's goingto be great.
And there's just another exampleof somebody who persevered.
And then the last, the lastperson once again is Leslie
Hale.
Leslie grew up in Washington, D.
C.
The South part of L.
A.
Okay, where too many people likeher became a statistic,
literally, and she and herparents on the weekends will
(27:52):
drive the family outside ofSouthern L.
A.
And say, you know what?
This is there.
There is a little life.
And so she got through highschool, went to a great college,
went on to Harvard BusinessSchool, and she is who she is.
But it would have been so easyto paint her life as one where
you're never going to get out ofthose surroundings and make a
(28:14):
difference.
And yet she persevered and shedid it.
So there, those are threeexamples of people who I have
enormous respect for.
I know you do too, because weknow them all in our industry
and they're great leaders.
But they ran into theseobstacles and they overcame
them.
And thank God they did becausethey've been great mentors and
(28:36):
developers of subsequentgenerations of talent.
And we're very blessed to havethem as friends and peers in the
industry, for sure.
David Kong (28:44):
Thanks for sharing these very inspiring stories.
The book is chock full of them.
And that's why I read it twice.
I find inspiration every time Iread it.
I feel so empowered afterreading those chapters.
So thank you.
Appreciate the hard work inputting this book together.
I highly recommend it.
We're coming to the end of theshow.
I was wondering if you couldshare a final piece of advice on
(29:07):
self empowerment.
Bill Ferguson (29:10):
Yeah, I think self empowerment is a
combination of factors.
I think it starts with yourheart or drive.
You've got to have thosefundamental genetics or learned
attributes.
And then you have to be smartenough to surround yourself with
people who can help you developinto a great leader.
(29:33):
And, and so I think it's acombination of having that
heart, that soul, thatconviction, and then just being
smart enough, thoughtful enoughto surround yourself with people
that you respect and are willingto mentor you and develop you
and you have to be humble enoughto learn from them.
(29:54):
And get through whatever lifethrows at you.
So it's a little bit of theinside and it's a little bit of
the outside that allows peopleto become self empowered.
Yeah.
David Kong (30:04):
Very good advice.
Thank you.
I appreciate you sharing that.
Bill Ferguson (30:07):
Yeah.
And Bill,
David Kong (30:08):
thank you for taking the time to be on our show to
share your wisdom.
I find your insightstremendously helpful and
inspirational in many ways.
Thank you, Bill.
Bill Ferguson (30:18):
Thank you.
Thank you, David, for all youdid in our industry.
And how many people youmentioned, you were a great peer
to so many of the great CEOs andthis next chapter is wonderful,
the mission you're on now, andI, I honestly believe that the
best way to address the economicdivide in this country is to do
what we're doing, which is togive people a great opportunity.
(30:42):
And let them self actualize.
So, thank you for all you'redoing as
David Kong (30:46):
well.
I absolutely agree.
Thank you again.
Bill Ferguson (30:49):
For
David Kong (30:49):
our audience, if you enjoyed this interview, I hope
you can join us on our website.
It's personalstories.
com You'll find over 250 otherinterviews.
We'll hope to see you there.
Thank you.
Bill Ferguson (31:03):
Thank you, David.
Appreciate the opportunity.
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