Waterfall Plunge: Jon Cheney's Journey Through Whitewater Kayaking and Life

#154 - Imagine plunging down a 35-foot waterfall strapped inside a kayak, or trying to compose a stunning piano piece that captures the serenity of nature. These are just fragments of Jon Cheney's extraordinary journey as a creator, adventurer, entrepreneur, and man of faith.

From his early years in a musical household where his parents prioritized owning a grand piano before even having proper furniture, to his teenage years in Paraguay learning Spanish, Jon's life has been defined by embracing new challenges. His remarkable ability to master languages – including Mandarin Chinese during his church mission – parallels his approach to music composition, where he sees patterns and structures that most miss.

The heart of our conversation explores Jon's passion for whitewater kayaking and the profound life lessons it's taught him. "You're going to flip over in life," Jon explains with the wisdom of someone who's faced Class 5 rapids and business setbacks alike. "But when you've learned that you can flip over and then get back up and be okay, then the world really opens up." This philosophy has guided him through entrepreneurial ventures, creative pursuits, and personal challenges.

What makes Jon's perspective particularly refreshing is his recent epiphany about pursuing multiple passions. After years of praying for divine guidance on which path to choose – music, adventure, business, or writing – he found peace in Elder Uchtdorf's simple wisdom: "It mattereth not, only be faithful." This liberating principle has energized Jon to embrace all facets of his creative spirit rather than waiting for permission to begin.

Whether you're considering your own adventure into whitewater kayaking, struggling to choose between multiple passions, or simply seeking inspiration from someone who's mastered the art of getting back up after life flips you over, Jon's story will leave you both entertained and equipped with a new perspective on life's rapids. Follow Jon on Instagram @cheneypiano or on his website joncheney.com to continue following his journey of creation and adventure!

Want to be a guest on Journey with Jake? Send me a message on PodMatch, here: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/journeywithjake

Visit LandPirate.com to get your gear that has you, the adventurer, in mind.  Use the code "Journey with Jake" to get an additional 15% off at check out.

Visit geneticinsights.co and use the code "DISCOVER25" to enjoy a sweet 25% off your first purchase.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Have you ever plunged down a 35-foot waterfall or
composed a beautiful piece ofmusic on the piano?
What about living in a foreigncountry as a teenager or
learning to speak MandarinChinese?
My guest, john Cheney, has doneall of this and more.
In this episode, we dive intoJohn's thrilling adventures in
whitewater kayaking.
But beyond hisadrenaline-fueled experiences,

(00:22):
john is also a creator involvedin so many pursuits that it can
sometimes feel overwhelming toknow which path to take.
Fortunately, john is a man offaith and his guiding principle
one that I love as well issimple it mattereth not only be
faithful.
Get ready for an episode fullof adventure, inspiration and
valuable life lessons with JohnCheney.

(00:45):
Welcome to Journey with Jake.
This is a podcast aboutadventure and how, through our
adventures, we can overcome thechallenges of life that come our
way.
While I expect you will learnsome things about different
adventures, this show willentertain you.
Each episode will featuredifferent guests or guests as
they share experiences andstories from the different
adventures they have been on.
Not only will you beentertained, but you'll also

(01:07):
hear the failures and trialseach guest faces and what they
have done or are doing toovercome the hardships that come
their way.
My goal is to take each of uson a journey through the
experiences of my guests, withthe hope that you'll be
entertained and inspired toovercome your day-to-day
challenges.
After all, it's not all aboutthe destination, as it is fun.

(01:30):
Welcome back to the show.
I'm Jake Bushman, your host ofJourney with Jake.
Today's episode is a fascinatingconversation with John Cheney.
From whitewater kayaking tocompels and music.

(01:52):
John is incredibly talented andI know you're going to love
hearing his stories and insights.
Before we dive in, just a fewquick housekeeping items If you
haven't already.
Be sure to subscribe to Journeywith Jake wherever you listen
to podcasts.
You can also watch episodes onYouTube.
Just search Journey with Jakepodcast.
And while you're there, don'tforget to subscribe and hit that
like button.
Want to connect with me and getbehind the scenes content?

(02:13):
Follow me on Instagram atJourney with Jake podcast to see
clips from past and upcomingepisodes and say hello.
Journey with Jake is proud to bepart of the Podmatch podcast
Network.
If you're looking for moregreat independent podcasts,
check out podmatchcom forwardslash network.
This is the first time I've hada kayaker on the show and I
know you'll enjoy not onlyJohn's thrilling stories but

(02:36):
also the powerful life lessonshe shares.
If you like this episode, youmight also enjoy episode 18 with
Brooke Wheeler, where sheshares her experiences with pack
rafting and river rafting.
All right, let's jump in.
Here's my conversation withJohn Cheney.
All right, I'm excited.
Today I have John Cheney on thecall.
I was messing up.
I was calling him Cheney.
I bet a lot of people do that.

(02:56):
Most people call you Cheney.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
All right, very common.
I will answer to both.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
All right, that's good, because I call people all
kinds of things on this podcastsometimes, so I apologize if I
say it wrong.
Just you know, grin and bear itand correct me.
Cheney, john Cheney.
Hey, welcome to Journey withJake.

Speaker 2 (03:12):
Thanks so much, jake.
Glad to glad to meet you andexcited to be here today and
talk about adventure.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
Absolutely, we talk about adventure on this podcast.
That's what it's all about.
It's about overcomingchallenges through adventure,
but it's also your journey.
It's a journey with Jake, soit's kind of who you are, where
you come from, things you'velearned, how you've grown,
things like that.
So, before we dive into some ofyour adventures and we're going
to get into some whitewaterkayaking, which seems really

(03:39):
cool to me, so we're going totalk about that, amongst some
other things but before we dothat, tell us a little bit about
John, where you're from, kindof a little background, so we
know who you are.

Speaker 2 (03:48):
Originally from Houston, texas, you know, born
and raised there.
Four sisters I'm the oldest offive had wonderful parents born
of goodly parents, as they sayand when I turned 12, we ended
up.
We were actually about to moveto Utah, which is a pretty cool
story.
But we ended up detouring toParaguay for a few years and my
parents were served as missionpresidents there and that was an
adventure for sure.

(04:08):
I was a teenager, you know, ina foreign country, learned
Spanish, lots of great memoriesthere and then came back, you
know, we ended up, you know,moving to Utah after that and
ended up in Sandy.
That's where I went to highschool and then BYU.
I served a mission in Taiwan,came back, majored in Chinese
and in business, got married andnow I have four kids and been
married for about 13 years nowand we live in West Mountain,

(04:31):
utah.
I love to do a bunch of things.
Obviously, whitewater, kayaking, I really love to create.
I've always loved having aGoPro with me.
I've got one just sitting righthere.
I always have a GoPro, whetherit's for adventure or just, you
know, going to the bottom of apool or something, something fun
like that, or even, just, youknow, handing it to my kids as
they go down a slide.
So I always like creatingvideos and music and I'm a

(04:52):
musician, I'm a composer, I'vegot TVs, got a piano there and a
piano leaning up against thewall over there with more
computers, and another pianoright there and guitars, and
another piano right there andguitars.
And anyway, I love music, I lovecreating and that really
probably drives everything thatI do is this creation thing and
I actually really love toinspire others to create as well

(05:12):
.
And so, from that creation bugthat's in me, I'm also an
entrepreneur and have started afew companies and sold them and
done a lot of stuff in thatarena and I'm writing a book and
again, it's just if it'screation.
I'm probably dabbling in it andprobably doing most of it just
okay, but I really enjoy it, Ilove, I love.
What I believe is is a Godgiven gift of creation that

(05:33):
everybody has, not just me.
Everyone has that gift tocreate.
I think that's a, I think that'san eternal gift.
That's really, really exciting,whether it's the power of
creation of other humans byactually having children, all
the way down to hey, you knowwhat?
I'm going to knit somethingtoday, or I'm going to make a
beautiful meal, or I'm going to,you know, compose a symphony,

(05:55):
or whatever it might be Right.
And then today you have, youknow, influencers, you have
social media everyone's and so Ithink that I think that, uh,
I'm probably just like everybodyelse and I love to create and
share that with others.

Speaker 1 (06:07):
Wow, You've done a lot.
There's a whole bunch of thingshappening that you've done
Probably a whole bunch more.
You're not an old man by anystretch.
You've probably got a lot morethings that are going to be
happening for you.
Let's talk about that creationfor a minute.
Yeah, Is there anything as akid growing up?
What were the things that youdid as a kid?
That kind of drove, thatcreation?
I mean lot of instruments.
But the piano I started when Iwas very, very young.

(06:28):
My parents were musical.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
My parents when they were young.

(06:53):
You know, I was probably twoyears old or so when they bought
their first grand piano.
And they had a grand pianobefore they had a bed frame,
they had a mattress and a boxspring on the ground and they
said we need to buy a piano, weneed music in our house.
And they just kind of made thatdecision early on and and I was
taught by my mom and my grandmajust you know, here and there,
nothing really like oh hey,let's sit down and have your 30
minute piano lesson, kind ofjust offhand.
And then, probably at about theage of four or five, I started

(07:16):
with some piano lessons, hadthem for until I was about 12,
pretty, pretty regularly, andthen moved to Paraguay and then
I was kind of on my own fromthen.
But yeah, it started young and,and I think probably probably
about the age of 15, I reallystarted composing a lot, and
I'll back up a tiny bit there.
At about age 13, I wasintroduced to a new type of

(07:37):
music that I didn't really havemuch experience with, which was
called jazz Right, and jazzrequires a lot of on the spot
creation, like you have to.
They say, okay, hey, it's yourturn to do a solo and start
improvising and all I have issome chords in front of me and
there's, you know, a rhythmsection going drums and a bass
and some chord progressions andI just have to make something up

(07:58):
on the spot, on the fly.
And that was really.
I was really uncomfortable thefirst time I had to do that and,
you know, after doing it a fewthousand times I got better at
it and started saying, hey, Ican probably write my own music
and I started coming up with myown things and anyway.
But I've always just lovedcreation and I really love media
.
I remember growing up watchingthings like Star Wars and stuff

(08:21):
like that that everybody did.
But I just loved payingattention to the details and
thinking about how it was made.
Like how did they get that shot?
How did they do that technology?
How did they?
How did they make that laserlook like that?
Like what was that exactly?
Was that a computer generatedthing or was it some sort of
prop or something anyway?
So I would always just kind ofthink about how things were made

(08:41):
and then got into videocreation pretty young as well
that's a good description of youthen.

Speaker 1 (08:45):
A creator, because it sounds like music, media, those
are two huge big things.
When you think of creators,those are two big things you
think of.
Did you ever have when you werea kid and you had those.
You know you're, you'relearning the piano Cause I, you
know I've heard of some kids whoare forced into it or whatever,
and they resent it.
Did you ever have any feelingslike that?

(09:05):
Or do you always enjoy it?
Or was there moments whereyou're like, eh, I don't know
about music?

Speaker 2 (09:09):
I had a pretty good teacher, that kind of let me
choose what I wanted to learnwithin a certain boundary, right
?
She'd say here are some books,pick something that you like.
And I picked the theme toJurassic Park and I picked, you
know, the theme to whateverIndiana Jones and the John
Dunbar theme and Dances withWolves, and you know whatever.

(09:31):
I just I learned all this moviemusic and that you know, before
we got on here, I was playingmy trusty Spotify playlist of
soundtracks.
I love soundtracks and I writea lot, like many of the great
soundtrack composers JohnWilliams, thomas Newman, alan
Silvestri, all those guys and soI think I just got inspired
early on because I didn't, Iwasn't forced to do it.

(09:53):
Then I moved to Paraguay.
I'm a teenager looking forstuff to do.
You know, we don't have amission.
President's homes aren't likecrazy big and nice.
They're fine, they're verycomfortable, no complaints there
.
But we had a piano and atrampoline outside and even had
a pool.
But you know, I can only dothose other things so much.
And I just found myselfconstantly coming back to the
piano saying, hey, this is cool,and I'd pull out those movie

(10:15):
books and I'd have these moviebooks of 200 different movies
and I'd just read through thewhole thing.
I got so good at it and I justreally enjoyed it.
And then I started.
I started getting good at atthis and I just really enjoyed
it.
And then I started, I startedgetting good at at this jazz
piece where I would then be ableto say, okay, now, instead of
only having the notes that areon in front of me, what can I
add to it or take away from it,or how can I change it?

(10:35):
Or can I move it up and down?
Can I change keys?
Can I?
Can I just modify it to becomea little bit more my own?
And that was the stepping stonetowards saying, okay, I can
completely compose somethingthat's that's my own now and now
it just comes naturally to tobe able to do it.
But creation, the beginning ofcreation, is hard.
When you first start, it's noteasy.

Speaker 1 (10:56):
Yeah, no for sure.
And and I don't have any musicabilities at all.
So when I hear someone say thatthey compose and you kind of
were explaining a little bitthere, that that kind of helped
me understand a little bit it'salmost to me it's like a foreign
language.
And there you are, and thereyou are in paraguay learning
spanish, which is a foreignlanguage 100.

Speaker 2 (11:16):
Yeah, they say that chinese is.
Chinese is one of the hardestlanguages to learn, and I
learned that on my mission.
And you know chinese, yeah, Ilearned it very, very quickly,
and it wasn't because I thinkI'm just really smart, I think
it was because, number one, Ihad already learned Spanish, so
I'd already learned how toapproach communicating in a
different language.
And, number two, chinese has atone system where you have one,

(11:39):
two, three, four, five.
You have five different tones,at least in Mandarin, seven in
Cantonese.
But you have this tone systemthat is kind of musical.
You have a high one and a lowone, and a rising tone and a
lowering tone and differentthings like that.
And so there's no question thatmusic was a language, and so I
already knew English and then Ilearned Spanish and I was a
musician and so going to Chinesewas, I think, god just said,

(12:01):
hey, he'll be able to learnChinese easily, head on over
Right, and so I really loved it.
I really loved Chinese.
It became really, really goodand really took the language
apart.
Again, I liked understandingwhy the language was put
together in the way it is, andChinese is just a bunch of

(12:21):
symbols, a bunch of codes kindof right, where you have, like,
the symbol for glory, which isactually three trees over fire.
Right, that's the symbol forglory.
And so what does that mean, Idon't know.
To me it reminds me of aburning bush and something
glorious happening as a resultof that, or glory being
displayed, and so I likeunderstanding the why behind how
things are put together, and Ithink that's part of what makes

(12:43):
me at least a curious creator,learning that Chinese, I mean
obviously.

Speaker 1 (12:47):
Then you majored in that in college and business
combined the two.

Speaker 2 (12:52):
Yeah, I figured honestly, I, I.
So I, when I first went intoBYU, I was a, I was a declared
accounting major, and it'sbecause of what my dad had done
and he was very successful.
And you, and it's because whatmy dad had done and he was very
successful, and you know, he didall these great things and I'm
like, well, hey, he did allright, I'll just kind of follow
in his footsteps.
I went to my first class.
I don't know if you went to byuor took accounting or if you
did, if norm nemro was theteacher at the time.

(13:14):
He's been there forever, butman, that guy, even on 2x speed,
was really tough to watch andlisten and learn from.
And anyway, I, just, I, just Ididn't Debits and credits.
I'm still trying to figure itout.
That's probably why I'm alwaysin debt.
No, I'm just kidding.
But bottom line is I justdidn't really enjoy it and so I
quickly changed to a music major.
I said I got to do somethingthat I really enjoy.
So I switched to a music majorand that was fun for about four

(13:37):
classes.
And then I was like the teachersaid no, I want you to write
something that's like this and Idon't want you to do this thing
, I want you to really do this.
And I was like, no, I don'tlike being told how to create, I
want to do it my way.
Then I went on a mission.
I had some time to think aboutit, came back and I was like,
all right, I know, I want to bean entrepreneur, what is the?
But I also had this thing, this, this thought in my mind of

(13:59):
president Hinckley had saidobtain as much education as
possible.
And I just had that in my mind.
So I said, okay, the way I'mgoing to apply that in my life
is, you know, beside, being alifelong learner, but for
college, I'm just going tograduate, right, I'm going to
figure out what's the fastestway out of here.
And Chinese was the fastest wayout of it because you could
graduate with a huge amount ofcredits, because it's a really
difficult thing, and so I wasimmediately a junior.

(14:21):
I also had, you know, 70credits, ap credits or so from,
you know, from high school, andthings like that, and so I had I
had, you know a quick pathwayout.
But I also said, you know what,if I'm doing Chinese, I do want
to make money.
You know, in life.
I do want to do that too.
I don't want to just be aChinese professor, but I bet you
there's going to be a growingneed to do business with China,

(14:43):
and so that was my first.
I did it, and here I am.
I have used my Chinese.
I'm not quite doing.
I have been to China severaltimes and actually done a decent
amount over there, but mycurrent business doesn't really
do it much.
So anyway, wow.

Speaker 1 (14:57):
I love it.
Wow Incredible Languages, musicand, in the meantime, adventure
.
You love adventure For you,John.
What does adventure mean to you?
Just going?

Speaker 2 (15:08):
outside Honestly, like I mean there's.
You can obviously haveadventures inside as well, but
going outside for me is reallywhat I think about when I say
I'm an adventurer.
I'm outside hiking, I'mkayaking, I'm skiing, maybe I'm
even golfing and looking for myball that I hit off on the side.
It's more of an adventureRunning, jogging, I'm skiing,
maybe I'm even golfing andlooking for my ball that I hit
off on the side.
It's more of an adventurerunning, jogging, hiking,

(15:29):
climbing, whatever I can find inthe mountains, just going up
and saying, hey, I see that peak, let's get up there Right.
Or I wonder what's in that cave?
Can we get to that spot rightthere?
Anyway, I love adventure.
I've always been no-transcript,connect more with my son and do

(16:11):
stuff, and so he was looking.
One day in outside magazine Ijust kind of saw this little ad
for a kayak school out inNorthern California called Otter
Bar and in fact I've got asticker of it right there and
that kayak school was this kindof private thing, like very like
small, 15 people per week, acouple thousand bucks for the
whole week, all included, andjust like top notch, really fun.

(16:34):
So you want to go kayaking?
I said, sure, why not?
I didn't really think much ofit, but I went there and turned
out turns out that the kayakingworld is not huge, right, it's
not like the NBA, where there'smillions, hundreds of millions
or a billion fans.
It's relatively small.
The best in the world are theones that end up teaching later

(16:54):
on, and so and you know, atleast at the really, really good
places like Otter Bar and OtterBar was best of the best, right
, it was the Sturgis family andone of their sons, rush Sturgis,
was a world champion multipletimes over, about a year older
than me, and I got to learn frompeople like that how to kayak
and the way that they talkedabout it and the way that they
taught it, and then just theexperience of finally getting

(17:16):
onto big rapids.
And you start small, right, andthen you work up, you learn how
to roll the boat over and allthat stuff.
But the first time you go downto class three rapid these huge
things or you learn how to surfon a wave where you can just
going back and forth and youcould just sit there all day
long on this standing wave anddo tricks and all this stuff.
I was hooked, man.
I came home from that week andI said I'm a kayaker and I ended

(17:37):
up going back to that sameschool about 11 different times
over the years and it ended upshunning because of COVID,
unfortunately.
So you can't go there anymore.
There are plenty of greatschools and if you want to learn
about them, I can point you inthe right direction, but the
sport of kayaking really, reallysaid okay, yeah, you're an
adventurer, this is what youwant to do, and I even got to
the point where I was asponsored kayaker at one point,

(17:57):
getting free gear and thingslike that to post videos and
content and stuff like that.
I don't do that anymore becauseI used to paddle a hundred days
a year and now I'm lucky if Iget in 20, still love it.
I still, I still will go topretty big and you know I can
jump on a class five rapid andwork my way down comfortably and
you know, not squeezing toohard on the paddle, but lots of

(18:19):
good stories.

Speaker 1 (18:20):
So class five, that's like the most, that's the
biggest rapids, or what kind of?
Give me the differentdistinctions If you say class
five, is that big time rapids wetalking about?

Speaker 2 (18:29):
Maybe people that are climbers or maybe, if you're
familiar with climbing as well,you have all these different,
these, all these differentratings where you have kind of a
512 or a 57 or you know.
You have all these differentkind of classifications.
Whitewater, I don't thesedifferent kind of
classifications, whitewater Idon't think has a very good
system.
But yes, one to five is thetypical system where one is

(18:50):
going to be kind of flat water.
Two is oh, you got some rapids,got some stuff going on.
A three is you have rapids withobstacles that possibly can
hold you and flip you over andthings like that.
Class four is you have multipleobstacles and multiple moves
that you have to make and thedanger level is up even higher.
Five is very large, powerfulwater with multiple obstacles,
with must make moves that you,you, you gotta make them right

(19:13):
or else you're going to be,you're going to be in trouble
potentially, and and then youhave maybe a little bit of a
rating system that goes to hey,this is a five plus or a five
minus or a three plus or a threemonth.
So you get a little bit inthere.
Really, I think the ratingsystem should be okay.
What's the difficulty in termsof what I just said, in terms of
like number of obstacles, mustmake moves, things like that.
And then I think there shouldbe a consequence or a danger

(19:35):
rating attached to it, becauseI've been on class three rapids
where if I flip over and swim,I'm going to scrape up my legs
and be bleeding or maybe get aconcussion or something like
that, even though the whitewater on top isn't that bad but
it's shallow and it's fast Right, whereas I've been in class
five rapids where if I were to,if I were to swim, yeah, I mean

(19:56):
I'd get sucked underwater acouple of times, but I'm not
going to get all scraped up andbanged up in the same way.
It's kind of it's kind ofinteresting.
You kind of learn how to dealwith it.
And then there's technicallyclass six, which is usually
something that hasn't been run.
Usually, once it's been run,it's then bumped down to a five
plus and there should probablybe some sort of a rating for
waterfalls, which are a totallydifferent beast.
And there's some people thatkayak and the biggest waterfall

(20:17):
I've ever done is like thebiggest single drop I've done is
just about 35, maybe 40 feet,and the highest that has been
done by other kayakers is 189feet, as you can imagine.
You know, my 35 footer isactually probably a five plus
rapid, right, but so is the 189footer.
That doesn't really make sense.

(20:38):
Plus plus plus, yeah, maybe youshould just say a W before it.
Right, it's a W, five plus,right, it's the hardest level of
waterfall you can do anyway.
But yeah, kayaking is.
Kayaking is a really fun, areally fun sport that not a lot
of people do because it's hardto get into.

Speaker 1 (20:56):
Yeah, I don't.
I think you're my first kayakerI've ever had on the show, so
I've had you know, I've hadsomebody went whitewater rafting
and stuff that you know not ina kayak Totally, totally
different thing.
Yeah, so was it Otter Bar?
What was the name of the place?
Again that you went, otter Bar?
Yep, so is it.
Are they just there on a riveror do they have a man-made thing
, or how did that work?

Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah, so this one is in Northern California in a
small literally fork in the roadcalled forks of salmon, and
population you know 31 maybe andit's I might be generous on
that like anyway.
So it's very, very, very small.
They show it's in northerncalifornia, very, very remote,
you.
You go up kind of near readingkind of your mount shasta in
that area and then it kind ofgoes south.
You know about an hour and ahalf kind of on one lane roads
along rivers and things likethat, through the mountains and
really beautiful drive.
I really miss that drive.

(21:48):
I wish I could.
I haven't done it in, you know,since COVID really, but I used
to do it almost every year.
It was kind of my annualpilgrimage to get out there.
But they had the Salmon River,california Salmon River,
different Idaho Salmon, and thenthey have another river called
the Klamath river, which is areally big one.
That's been in the newsactually a little bit lately
because of some a bunch of damsthat have been taken down that

(22:08):
were kind of blamed a little bit, you know, for you know,
governor Newsom and things likethat, with the fires and water
supplies and things like thatreally had nothing to do with
the dams being taken down, butsomebody wanted to cast blame
there, but there's a, a, anindigenous tribe there that you
know really holds those waterssacred and they, they opened it
back up all the way.
I got rid of all the dams allthe way, all the way through, so

(22:28):
it's free flowing again now.
But anyway, the klamath river isa big kind of warmer water, but
big.
You know huge waves that justare all over the place and throw
you all over the place and youfeel like you're in the middle
of a big maelstrom, whereas thesalmon is more tight and rocks
and precise moves and things,and so there's there's different
types of, just like there'sdifferent types of skiing.

(22:49):
Right, you could like skithrough trees and that's very
tight, specific, you know makeyour line and you're going to
end up, you know base planningwith, you know hugging a tree,
and then there's, you know, wideopen, you know groomers and and
there's powder skiing andthings like that.
So there's different types ofrivers as well, where some are
tight as well, where some aretight and small, low volume.
Some are tight and small withbig volume and they push through

(23:10):
hard, and then others are justhuge, massive things that that
have you know holes that can eatbuses, and anyway it's, it's
fun to.
Otter Bar is in a place whereyou have probably probably 30 to
40 runs like places.
You can go to three-milestretch here, seven-mile stretch
here, nine-mile stretch here,whatever, within about an hour,

(23:31):
and so you just go all up.
So it's a perfect place to havebeginners, and the best in the
world can go there and get theirmoney's worth.

Speaker 1 (23:41):
So when you go and you get in the water for the
first time and you're doing this, you said when you got done
with that week, you're like I'mhooked.
What was it?
You know what was it?
Was there a moment, that firstweek, where you're like
something happened Like kind oftell me about that.

Speaker 2 (23:53):
So kayaking- is tough to get people into, mostly
because of what happens whenthings go wrong, and they will
go wrong.
When you first get onto a riverand the water starts moving,
you're upside down very quickly,like it's just.
You don't understand how I mean, do you ski?

Speaker 1 (24:07):
I don't ski no, so yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:09):
What about water skiing?

Speaker 1 (24:11):
I've water skied yeah .

Speaker 2 (24:12):
Perfect.
Have you ever caught an edgewrong, right when you're going
to turn, and you accidentallyput an edge down and you just
you're off Right and the boathas to to come around and get
you right?
The same is true on a kayakright.
Or on skis on, you know, snowskis right.
If you catch an edge you'regoing to go down.
But when you're in water andyou're strapped in and you have
this thing called a spray skirtthat keeps the water out, so

(24:33):
you're literally just kind ofstuck in there and you can grab
the spray skirt and you can ripit off and push yourself out and
swim to the edge and drag yourgear to the side.
But you can imagine if you'rein a big rapid you don't want to
do that, right?
I was talking a second agoabout like a, you know, a class
three rapid that's very fast.
And, by the way, what I'mtalking about is the Provo River
right, bridal Veil Right underthere.
It's fast and swift and sharpand people die in there every

(24:55):
year literally.
You know just people that gettoo close or they go say I'm
going to swim that and you knowbad things happen, or maybe a
kid falls in and there's.
There's tragedies here andthere, but kayakers have to
learn how to roll their boatover, back over, and it's called
an Eskimo roll or just a roll,and it's a.
It's kind of a weird move.
It took me three days to get itright.
They started on Monday.

(25:15):
By Wednesday I figured it outright after hours and hours and
hours of practicing and so alsoafter many times, you know,
flipping over in the river andhaving to do what I just said
gather all my gear and get it tothe side and pick up this huge
heavy boat with water and try toempty it out, and it's just
exhausting.
I'm like, oh my gosh, I have todo this one more time, right.
And so most people stop beforethey get their role.

(25:39):
Because, first of all, I've seena lot of you have taught a lot
of people to kayak too, right, Iactually ran a kayak school
while I was at BYU.
It was one of the things I didon the side and I had eight
boats and I've just, you know,put up ads and take people and
teach them how to kayak on theProvo river, right On the easy
section where people enter toright.
But even there, you know whenpeople flip over and I've told
them okay, look, grab your sprayskirt, grab this, handle

(26:04):
yourself out and I'll help you.
We'll get to the side.
But they just, you know, theyflip over and they're just
flailing and they've forgotteneverything I've taught them.
And that would be me.
It's okay, right, there'snothing wrong with that, but,
but it's scary.
It's bottom line is it's scaryto be stuck upside down in water
.
It's just scary.
Once you get that, then you'renot afraid of flipping, then you
learn how to not flip.

(26:24):
That's step three, right, butreally you are going to flip
when you're learning.
And if you can learn how toflip back up, then you can keep
going.
And I think we'll take a pausefor a second here, because I
think it's a good life lessonthat I've really taught a lot.
You're going to flip over inlife.
You absolutely are.
I've done it way more times thanmost people probably.
Over in life, you absolutelyare.
I've done it way more timesthan most people probably, but

(26:46):
some self-inflicted and some not.
But when you flip over, youjust got to get back up, right,
you got to get back up, get backon the horse, whatever you're,
whatever you want to call it,and keep going.
And when you've learned thatyou can flip over and then get
back up and be okay and it'sokay, then the world of kayaking
really opens up.
Now when the teacher, theinstructor, says, okay, I want

(27:09):
you to, I want you to go behindthat rock and catch that Eddie,
and then I want you to zipacross this big wave and try to
catch this other Eddie overthere by the, by the rock wall.
Well, when I, if I know I'mgoing to flip, doing those
things like there's about eightedge changes I'm going to have
to do, and if I, if I miss oneof them, I'm over I'm going to
be afraid to kind of go for it.
But if I know I'm going to beokay if I flip over and then get

(27:30):
back up, now I can really pushhard to go and try that new move
.
And then I nailed the move, ooh, and that feels really good.
Right, it's like when you hit agood golf shot, you're just
like, yes, I'm coming backtomorrow.

(27:51):
You know, getting to a pointwhere you can have those
successes is harder in kayakingthan it is in something like
golf or soccer or basketball orone of those less consequential
things.
Right, extreme sports.
I wrote an article on that Ipublished on LinkedIn.
I don't know, or basketball orone of those less consequential
things, right, extreme sports.
I wrote an article that Ipublished on LinkedIn, I don't

(28:12):
know, maybe a month ago, maybetwo months ago, I'm not sure
when it was, but it basicallysaid that startups are like
extreme sports and big companiesare like team sports.
Basketball, whatever right.
If you mess up in an extremesport like skydiving, you might
die, right.
If you mess up in kayaking onsomething really big, you might
die, right.
If you mess up rock climbingyou didn't put in some anchor
right and your rope wasn'twhatever you might die.

(28:33):
Or, at the very least, maybeyou won't die, but you might get
injured pretty bad, right.
Whereas if you mess up on thebasketball court, whatever Right
.
And so in a startup you're goingto, you have maybe three people
on your team early on and ifone person messes up really bad,
the company might be dead.

(28:54):
It's gone, right.
And yeah, you might be able torecover and go do something else
.
You know the people aren'tactually going to die, but the
company is gone.
Whereas for Microsoft, you takethat shot and you miss.
You know, maybe you get fired.
Company's fine, company doesn'tcare, company goes on.
So that team sport, the teamwill continue on you as an
individual contributor, maybeeven if you miss the shot.

(29:17):
You're okay and you'll you know, they might not even fire you.
At worst case scenario theyfire you, but it comes down to
making, just being willing topush through some discomfort.
If you can push through thediscomfort, kayaking becomes one
of the best sports on theplanet.

Speaker 1 (29:33):
That's a good way to look at it, because I've watched
a few of those competitions onTV with these kayakers and it
just seems like such hard workand I think that's what it is.
I think for someone like me orsomeone who hasn't ever done,
it's kind of like man, maybe notbecause it's, you know, yeah,
it's scary to be upside down andnot, you know, in water, not be
able to breathe, like that's ascary feeling, it's a panicky

(29:53):
feeling, and so when I watchthem doing, you know, going up
against, you know, the, thewater, and it's just amazing how
they do that and they flip overlike it's no problem for them.
But obviously it takes practice.
So took you a few days, soundslike when you first were doing
this.
You got that figured out andthat got you hooked because then
you could start, you know whatit was.

Speaker 2 (30:14):
I think it was the transition of being scared
constantly and scared might notbe quite the right word, because
I wasn't necessarily scared ofdrowning.
I learned quickly how to getout.
I knew it wasn't going to die,but it's still not fun to be
accidentally thrown over Right,sometimes even violently.
If it's a strong wave andyou're going for something big,
right and you know, it kind ofjust whips you over and you're

(30:36):
just like, ok, you know, but I'mnervous, I'm worried that's
going to happen, because I'veI've experienced oh my gosh, now
I'm over and I'm cold and Ican't breathe.
I don't know what's going on.
And now I have to get to theside.
In case, you know, one of theinstructors doesn't come to me.
There actually is a way that theinstructor can come up and you
put your hands on the side.
It's called a T-rescue, right.
You actually you flip over andyou roll into a ball like this,

(31:06):
so you put your head kind, andwhich was really putting them up
out of the water.
Then you tap on the boat likethis and then you rub your hands
back and forth along the sideof the boat, moving back and
forth, waiting for theinstructor's boat to touch your
hand and you know cause?
He's just going to comebarreling in and try to T.
You know T bone your boat sothat you can, so that he can get
to you quickly, so that you canget up and start breathing

(31:26):
again.
And you feel it and you go, oh,and then, boom, you can pop
yourself up.
Before you know how to roll,you can use another boat to help
you.
And so I learned how to do thatand that got a little bit better
, especially if I knew, okay,we're practicing this, this is
this spot.
We're going to go from here tothis spot, to this spot, and you
know, a lot of times on a river, you can actually, even though
the river is moving down,there's rocks and boulders and

(31:47):
banks and things, things callededdies, where the water is
actually now going upstreamRight, and so you can stop and
work on different features andmoves and learn how to navigate
around the river.
We would stop at some placesand I see, ok, there's nothing
dangerous right here below me,it's easy water.
If I flip upside down, I canhold my breath for 15 or 20

(32:08):
seconds, no big deal, I'm gonnawait for the instructor to get
me.
And if after 20 seconds I sayyou know what, I'm not feeling
comfortable anymore.
I pop it and I get it no bigdeal.
And so I learned that I couldget up like that.
And then I learned okay, nowI'm, now I'm comfortable hanging
out for 20 seconds upside down.
By the way, today I don't likehanging upside down for 20
seconds.
I'm hitting rocks with myhelmet, you know, and I'm

(32:31):
usually in harder water, and soif I flip over, boom, I'm up in
half a second.
Lickety split as fast as I cannow, but when you're learning
and you're on calm, easy stuffyou can.
So you just learn to getcomfortable in uncomfortable
situations, and that's reallywhat happened throughout that
week On Monday, the way that theinstructor I actually later
went on to be to attend theirinstructor classes where I

(32:54):
learned how to be an autobarguide right, and I'd go in the
early season when the water'shuge and I was out of my class I
felt, you know, that whole timethere were so many good
kayakers there there were likeeight of us, but they were all
better than me.
At the beginning of the weekthey really hammer you hard hey,
get your head down, get thathand down, get this down.
You know, as you go throughoutthe week you get more confident,
more comfortable, and by Fridaythey're taught to say, hey,

(33:16):
look, even if they're stillmaking some of those mistakes,
they've improved, and so justfocus on the improvements.
By the end of the week theyshould be getting praises from
you the whole way down.
They should feel confident,they should do all this, and so
that's just good coaching andgood teaching etiquette.
And they were very, very, verygood at doing that, and so I
probably.
That's probably why I gottricked into loving it.

(33:37):
I thought I was good, I thoughtit was awesome.
I was like I sucked at thebeginning of the week because
they told me how bad I wasconstantly and by the end of the
week I was amazing and hey,good job.
Oh my gosh, I can't believe youhit that move.
That was so good.
Look at that roll Boom, you'renailing it.
Your form is incredible,whatever you know, like all
those things, and of course,that led me to come back the
next year.
And then you know, you go 10,11, 12 years to something like

(34:01):
that, while kayaking in betweenand having all those fun
misadventures by yourself andlearning how to do it,
navigating bigger things and,you know, meeting other kayakers
that are going through similarprogressions.
Yeah, it just they.
They, they got me, they got mehooked, they got you hooked.

Speaker 1 (34:14):
Is there a place where people say this is where
the kayakers like to go, Like isthere a certain place, or do
you have a place for you that'slike this is John's place, that
he loves to kayak?

Speaker 2 (34:25):
Yeah, I mean, everybody has their own favorite
rivers, of course.
I'll give about five favoriteones and I'll tell you why
they're different, right?
First of all, utah.
Utah has a lot of outdoors,lots of rivers, not lots of
great kayaking.
There's a good saying that thebest kayaking in Utah is in
Idaho, and that's very true.
One of the best places to kayakis up near Boise on the Payette

(34:47):
Rivers.
If you go up to Banks Idaho,which is about 45 minutes, 50
minutes from Boise, you have thehardest Class 5 whitewater down
one channel you have on theSouth Fork.
You have Class 3, class 4whitewater and then down the
main channel, both of thosechannels come together and it's
called the main Payette and youhave Class 3 whitewater.
That's bigger and more fun.

(35:08):
And you know, people raft itand all those things.
People raft both channels.
Well, actually they don'treally do.
The North Fork, the North Fork,the five, is too dangerous for
your average, for your average,joe.
I've never done it.
Too consequential, if I were tocome out of my boat, even
though I look at moves and I'mlike I think I could make those

(35:29):
moves right, like I'm prettysure I could do it like I'm a
good classified kayaker I can.
I'm actually 90 positive.
I could go down it and nail it,but it's that 10.
If I decide to go down it andit messes me up, it's it's like
sharp granite underneath there,like, and people just break
their leg.
It's's crazy stories on theNorth Fork, but they hold a huge
championship there every year.
You know it's a good place butit's not for everybody.

(35:52):
There's a certain level ofconsequence that I'm just not
willing to tackle these days.
Maybe it's because I'm olderand I'm not as stupid as I was.

Speaker 1 (36:02):
I was gonna say maybe , yeah, when you're in your 20s,
maybe would you have consideredit.

Speaker 2 (36:05):
Yeah, I probably would have more at that, but now
I'm like, look, I can find myclass five thrills with less
consequence.
That's why I think there needsto be that dual scale of some
consequences versus thedifficulty of the actual
whitewater itself.
Anyway.
So I really love banks here inUtah.
Honestly, the Bridal Veilsection of the Provo River as a

(36:26):
home run is primo.
The only thing that itstruggles with a little bit is
its season is relatively short.
Right, it can be on for threeweeks, sometimes sometimes two
weeks.
One year it was open for fourmonths and I was just in heaven,
I was there every day, justlike crank out, I can go from
top to bottom about six miles inI don't know 45 minutes, so I

(36:49):
can get in a couple of laps andthen you know, head home and
I've, I've been gone for twohours, whatever.
Really fun.
So I like that.
I also love if you've ever heardof Joe's Valley, which is you
head out towards price, justhead up price canyon, and then
you hit price and then you goSouth for about 45 minutes and
you're there and Joe's Valley isactually a world-class rock
climbing destination.
There happens to be a riverthat runs right down that Canyon
out of the reservoir, out ofJoe's Valley reservoir, and it

(37:11):
is awesome, it's beautiful.
So I love those places.
Now, if you go outside of this,you know Utah, idaho area.
I really love Otter Bar.
I love the rivers, theCalifornia salmon, and they just
obviously have a special place.
I love those rivers and I canliterally, even though I haven't
been there in six years, Icould say, all right, let me
take you down a run in my head.
I'll draw it out for you and say, yeah, this is this rapid

(37:33):
You're going to need to go hereand there's a little spot you're
going to try to hit.
I just know it's amazing how itsticks with you.
But my favorite trip I've everbeen on is in Mexico with one of
the best kayakers in the world,a guy named Evan Garcia, and he
put on basically a clinic kindof and he's like, hey, john,
come down and again it's a smallworld.
This guy is a world champion,like number one world champion.

(37:54):
You know extreme whitewaterkayaking, like does big
waterfalls, all these things andreally really cool guy, amazing
whitewater kayaker, and he'slike yeah, come down to the
clinic, come, you know, let meshow you all the waterfalls and
all the things I like to do andI'm like, all right, let's go.
And it was.
It was a full week of class,five whitewaters, biggest

(38:19):
whitewater trip I've ever donein my life and and I really felt
like I had to step up my gameto to do that.
But I did it with you know,almost one-on-one coaching type
for a few minutes, and so I'mgoing to coach you for a week
and then we'll we'll let youplay for a minute or for you
know, for five minutes during agame or something.
It's kind of like that, right,you get to, you get to be with
the best of the best and havethem show you how to do it, and
then you get to.
You know, enjoy that.
So I really really love that.
I've got lots of in sports islike entrepreneurship article

(38:45):
that I wrote actually revolvesaround my trip to Mexico, and so
you can read that, see picturesand videos and fun stuff of
what I did.
So, anyway, love that and Ireally love actually the Ottawa
river is a really fun one inCanada, ottawa, okay, and it's.
It's big water, right, which isdifferent than what I normally
hear.
Provo is baby water right,whereas the Ottawa is just huge,

(39:07):
huge, huge, wide rivers andmassive waves and just huge
rolling things that just likeyou throw you know you're going
up a wave and you're like goingup it for a while, really really
fun.
And then I've actually raftedthe Grand Canyon.
I haven't kayaked it, I'vereally really wanted to rafted
it twice and man, that is.
That's some of the bestwhitewater and adventure there

(39:28):
is on the planet.
Doesn't really get much betterthan that.

Speaker 1 (39:32):
I want to hear about this 35 foot waterfall, Kind of
what was the situation behindthis?
And then, what's it like goingover a waterfall in a kayak.
I mean, that's gotta be for me.

Speaker 2 (39:43):
it's scary, but Scary is a word for it Absolutely
Nerve wracking.
I've got a good video of youcan watch it on YouTube.
It's maybe five or six minuteslong.
It just kind of shows me goingand doing.
Have you ever been up toYellowstone?

Speaker 1 (39:56):
I have.

Speaker 2 (39:56):
Yes, and have you ever stopped at Lower Mesa
waterfall, lower Mesa Falls andUpper Mesa Falls?
I believe so.
I believe so.
Yeah, I bet you have.
Most people have that, havebeen up there.
It's a good, easy turn off andyou go and it's just this
beautiful waterfall.
In fact I'll just pull up aquick picture of it so you can
kind of get it in your mind.

(40:16):
But it's a two-tier waterfall.
It's actually 60 feet but youdo like 20, 25 feet and then 35
feet, right, it's like boom, andyou go and then boom, right,
and it's like boom and you goand then boom, right, and it's,
and it's really, really abeautiful, a beautiful spot.
When the first time I went there, you you kayak kind of the, the
river henry's fork, of the, ofthe snake, basically is what it

(40:36):
is and there's a bunch ofwaterfalls kind of warm up
things, and then you then youactually have to, you have to
not repel, but you have to kindof use some ropes and climb over
something and just kind ofcarefully scramble down, because
you can't do upper mesa falls,it's about a 200 foot waterfall
that lands on rocks and it's notgoing to happen, and so you
have to walk down that and thenyou and then you kind of hike
along and you get back in theriver.
Then you hike along for a minutepast middle mesa falls and then

(40:59):
you, uh, and you kind of walkaround that one too, because
it's also kind of weird, andthen you get out and you just
kind of walk up to the edge, youput your boat down on the edge.
So this is lower Mesa Falls, soif I can get it to center on
the screen there, so it's about65 feet.
Like I said, you can see.

Speaker 1 (41:15):
I can see the little middle part yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:17):
You can do it.
Actually, right here is whereyou go off.
You go off here and then youstop in there and then you go
off again.
Gotcha, you can go off if youwant to do it all at once right
there, but that's a very riskymove because there's a flake
that comes out, some rocks thatstick out and you have to not
hit that.
So, again, one of those thingswhere I probably physically
could do it, but it's just notworth it.

(41:38):
If I'm a foot or two off and Ihit that and I, you know, and I
roll weird and you know I don'tto.
I don't want to hurt myself,right, nor base falls from a
danger standpoint is relativelylow.
You need to be able to psychyourself up.
You need to be confident enoughto understand, okay, when I hit

(41:58):
the water, it's going to, it'sgoing to hit me hard, and so you
have to build a deal with thatright, smacking you in the chest
and in the face, and you got toput your body in the right
place.
You're very possibly going toroll over.
So you need to be able to getsmacked in the face hard and
stay, you know, calm and roll upand you're good, you did it
right.
That happens, and so I hadworked up to the point where I
thought I could do that and Iremember getting to the edge and

(42:21):
I'm like that's just like.
This is crazy.
I can feel the feeling that Ifelt, just thinking about it.
The cool thing about when you'rekayaking with other people,
especially when they've done itbefore you.
You see them do it.
I'm really really good atfollowing someone.
Like, if I see someone do it,I'm like I got this, like when I
was in Mexico a side detourstory when I was in Mexico.
There's this one rapid that's alittle tiny chute.

(42:44):
It goes down and then itsmashes into a wall and shoots
to the right and smashes intoanother one shoots to the left.
It's called S turn and it'sjust a little tiny thing.
We walked up to it, we all gotout and a few people said, yeah,
I'm going to walk around thisand I was like, yeah, I'm going
to walk around this too.
There's no way.
Then I stood there and Iwatched six people do it and I
was like I got this and I did itright, so I can be talked into

(43:08):
it right Inside here, like noone.
By the way, the kayakingcommunity is really, really cool
.
They don't pressure you.
They want you to say I feellike, this is good.
Nobody ever says, ah, youwalked around that.
I've never heard that be saidever.
They're like I'm glad youwalked around, that.
Do you have a good, solid day?
Because you want to come awaywith a good experience.
You don't want to have thatmisadventure that turns you off

(43:31):
from the sport because you'renow terrified of smashing your
face against a wall or somethingweird right now.
Obviously, that doesn't mean goafter something you're not
ready for, but you want to.
You know, if you can do it,then do it Right.
So anyway, but no one's goingto push you.

(43:51):
So back to Laura Mesa.
I watched a couple other peopledo it and I'm like, okay, well,
I'm the only one left here and Ican either, you know, carry my
boat back like six miles, or Ican just follow them.
So here we go, and I remember,sitting down in my kayak and I
was just like, all right, it'sprayer time.
And I was just just help me tobe safe and make it down.
No-transcript of push it, andyou're off the edge right, the

(44:18):
first one's about a 20 footerand you just kind of go off.
Maybe it's like 23 feet,something like that.
Anyway, so I go and I just kindof go off and boom, I'm like,
hey, I'm fine, I'm awake.
And now all of a sudden, youknow, the next one's right there
.
That's the big one, right, andI'm like I have nothing to do
but just go for it.
And so I'm just I'm going to goover and, boom, come back up

(44:43):
and I'd roll up and I'd turnaround.
I'm like, yeah, you know, it'sfunny.
I remember the hit being prettyhard.
I remember being like wow, thatwas more intense than I
expected.
That was my first big waterfall.
I was just like that was a bighit, like I felt like a bus just
kind of hit me right, but itwas a soft water bus, you know.
You know kind of like gettinghit by a water balloon in the

(45:03):
head, but like a hundred of themfrom all sides.
Anyway, we finished out the run, great day, high fives all
around.
I'm like, all right, guys, I'm,you know, they were camping for
the night.
I'm like I'm driving home, I'mheading back to Salt Lake, and
so I actually drove from San, orlet's see, where was I living
at the time.
Anyway, I think I was in.

(45:35):
I think kind of like my body'slike, okay, you're safe now, and
I'm just like man, that's justpretty sore.
I wonder what that's from.
Then I'm like, well, duh,apparently, you know you got to
do it right, right.
I mean it's, it's fun to watch.
You know Red Bull videos andfun, crazy stuff and things.
It's very easy to be like, oh,it's cool, I want to do a 30
foot waterfall or a 50 foot or a70, but I can do that and, like

(45:57):
soft, they just go, they rollup and they're all smiling and
happy, but no it that peoplebreak ribs and teeth and hands
and wrists and you know cause?
It's, it's gravity, still.
Gravity still works, even forkayakers, and gotta, you, gotta,
do it right, right, if I wereto do it again right now, I
would you know, if I were rightnow on the edge I haven't
kayaked in six months I wouldget in my boat right now and do

(46:19):
it and I actually feel like Iwould do it better today than I
did it back when I did it, Idon't know, eight years ago or
so, whenever that was, becauseI've thought about it a lot.
I actually, when I learned howto roll, the reason I learned
how to roll was because I wastold by one of the instructors.
They said look, you got to dothis motion and you got to put
it's very, it's verycounterintuitive motion.
You have to, like, put your eardown and you have to.

(46:40):
You have to, like, get rid ofall of the resistance in the
role in order to do it.
And so you have to practicethis move.
And he's like just do it like 20or 30 times, but right before
you go to bed, just lay in bedand just do the motion just over
and over.
Boom, like this, right.
And just while laying down inbed and I woke up the next
morning I went out, nailed it,right.

(47:00):
There's some psychology withthat.
You remember things better ifyou do it right before bed.
Things like that, that anyway,that worked for me.
That worked for me and I wasable to do it.
But but I just visualizing a lotof the rivers and the things
that have gone right or haven'tgone right.
I think about them over andover and over.
I play them back in my head.
When I did that waterfall, Ididn't stay upright, which is

(47:22):
okay, right, it's totally fine.
Like when you, when you plug awaterfall, the water is going to
do what it's going to do withyou.
It's cool if you can manage topush out a little bit, manage to
stay up, going over the edge,and you can.
You know a lot of people willvisualize things before they
could do it.
But the first time the waterhits you in in the face, right,

(47:53):
you know, all bets are off.
Right, it's this classic.

Speaker 1 (47:56):
First time you get punched in the face, you know
you forget everything's gooduntil you get punched in the
face, right?

Speaker 2 (48:00):
yeah, exactly you're gonna just start forgetting
things.
And so, now that I've had timeto internalize that, I've also
done 30 more waterfalls sincethat, and maybe maybe 70 more
waterfalls since I last did thatat lower Mason, and now I feel
like I'd be able to pop off thefirst edge.
I know exactly what I'm doing.
Great, make sure the GoPro isgood.
All right, let's kick to theedge here.
Nice stroke there, boom.

(48:21):
I, you know I can do it.
I'm like, as I'm telling youthat, I'm like in my mind, I I'm
.
I've seen the water and I'veseen what my boat is doing Like.
I have the ability to visualizethat just because I've spent a
lot of time focusing on it.

Speaker 1 (48:34):
Something that's interesting about this whole
thing.
There's a lot of you know, theadrenaline of going down a
waterfall.
There's going up waves, there'sa lot of intense things that
are happening, but you saidsomething that I thought was
interesting.
You said, right before you didit, though, you said a little
prayer to yourself.
How does praying, how doescalmness, peace, how does that

(48:55):
play into any of this, or doesit?
How does it?

Speaker 2 (48:58):
It absolutely does.
It absolutely does.
Peace is one of the things thatI, in my creations, that I try
to portray and I try to share.
Right, I try to set another way.
I try to bring the spirit intopeople's lives through the
things that I share.
Hopefully, right, not a hundredpercent of my content, but a

(49:19):
lot of it, is going to have someangle of peace, right, oh, this
is just so beautiful.
Or I hope you can feel what I'mfeeling right now when I look
at this.
Or hey, let me play this musicfor you.
What does it make you feel?
And hey, whatever, right, if Iplay a special musical number in
church, right, I'm hoping thatsomebody in the audience is just
going to be touched by thespirit and feel something and
get an answer.
Or whatever, it is right, feelsome love.
But peace is so important.

(49:41):
Even in the middle of fallingdown a waterfall, you need to
have a clear mind and if youdon't have peace while you're,
you know, walking up to thewaterfall or you're driving away
from the waterfall, whileyou're in that moment, you don't
want any distractions.
Now I will say, I will say thisone thing, I'll give one, one
little caveat there when you areon a river, in the middle of a

(50:03):
rapid, you really aren'tthinking about much other than
that you get.
You enter what many people callflow state, right, when your
body just kind of takes over.
Nothing else matters.
My taxes don't matter when I'm,when I'm approaching that lip,
they don't matter at all.
My fight that I had withsomeone doesn't matter.

(50:24):
My whatever, you kind of itkind of all queers out a little
bit Right.
But one of the things I'veworked on, you know, every every
year, at the beginning of myweek at Otter Bar, they would
say well, what do you want towork on this week?
Right, and that became aninteresting question for me.
The longer I went because youknow the second year, I'm like I
really want to nail my role andI want to progress from class

(50:45):
three to class four and I wantto get good at this move and
whatever.
So I'd have very specificthings.
But then I get to where I'mcomfortable in class four.
I'm a good kayaker, I cantackle a five, whatever.
And then I got to where I'mcomfortable on class five.
So what do I work on now?
What am I supposed to do now?
What I wanted to work on wasawareness in the chaos.

(51:05):
That takes a lot of purposefulconcentration on developing that
skill.
I could show you pictures orvideo of me in the middle of
just crazy stuff going on, butinside my head it's kind of like
they talk about for a footballplayer, right, like the game

(51:25):
slows down, right, people say,oh, I got to college.
I'm like, oh my gosh, it was sofast.
They just run at me fromeverywhere.
They moved to the NFL andthey're like, oh my gosh,
everyone's so fast.
And then you're there for awhile and all of a sudden you're
like, okay, the game has sloweddown.
I see things, I know what'sgoing on.
I see this and I understand outof the corner of my eye what's
happening here and so I can moveout of the pocket and whatever.

(51:46):
Now I say, okay, I'm going downthis rapid called the MAW, m-a-w
.
The MAW, it's crazy and it'sjust big like crazy rapid and
it's kind of one of the biggerones that you do when you're
you're just getting into classfour and you're like, okay, this
is, this is the meat of the.
This is the crux of the day.
We got to get past this rapidand now I know it perfectly.
I enter.
I'm top left, eddie, and I'mgoing to then come out and I'm

(52:09):
going to go.
I'm going to just kind of zipdown and do a little s turn
behind another huge boulder inthe middle.
I'm going to cut over the tothe, to the right side of the
river.
I'm going to go down andthere's going to be a huge
boulder right here and there's a, there's a hole right here and
there's this right here.
And okay, if I move over herenow, okay, now I can look over,
I can see this because I knowwhat's below me here.
So just Just learning how tounderstand to stand, you know,

(52:31):
walk up next to a rapid and belike, okay, this matters, this
matters, this matters,everything else I can figure out
on the fly.
Then I jump in the rapid andI'm like okay, I don't want to
touch here, I do want to aim forthis, here's the cool move or
whatever it is Right.
And so now I'm in and I'll haveto make decisions.
Sometimes I'm like I'm not inthe position for the cool move,

(52:51):
so I'm not going to go for it,and I have to make that decision
in point one seconds.
Right, I'm going to like, oh, Ican't take that stroke.
So I'm going to instead go thisway and go there and I'm going
to hit that, and if you take onesecond to make that decision,
you can make mistakes Right.
Getting into that flow state,being able to slow down, being
able to understand what's goingaround in that chaos, is what I

(53:14):
think is part of the fun and whyI love it.
Slowing down that puzzle andfiguring it out to where I can
enjoy it and appreciate thechaos that's going on.
It's organized chaos.
It's predictable.

Speaker 1 (53:26):
Predictable organized chaos.

Speaker 2 (53:28):
You know that water is going to go down.
You know that when water hitssomething, it's going to bounce
off of it.
You start to learn theseprinciples that then put
together features that make up ariver, and you learn how to use
them and harness them for yourown good.
This has been fascinating.

Speaker 1 (53:40):
I've never knew anything about whitewater raft
kayaking, so hearing aboutkayaking, what's all involved,
has been fascinating For you.
What are some of the challengesthat you think you face?
And it doesn't even have to bewith with kayaking, it can be
just life in general for John.

Speaker 2 (54:01):
Maybe everyone's like this, but I feel like I'm
really good at doing everythingwrong the first time, like in
big, dramatic ways, likestarting a company and losing
millions of dollars and startinganother one and not doing it.
You know nailing it, figuringit out, and you know, going to
college and failing my firstsemester, which I did, and then,
you know, ended up graduatingwith all A's that last semester
Amazing, right.
And you know figuring out howto, how to deal with things.

(54:23):
And so maybe back to some ofwhat I said in the beginning
right, learning how to, how tohit something wrong and then
regroup, get back up and say,all right, I'm going to, I'm
going to keep going, right, Ican roll and I can roll back up
and I'm still okay.
And obviously there's abeautiful, you know, a beautiful
thing that helps us get overthose challenges, which is the
savior.
Right, savior understands whatwe've been through.

(54:44):
Not only that, he died and wentthrough the process to enable
us to repent and to to do betterand to try again.
You know, even if it's just,even if it wasn't something that
we went and we sinned orwhatever, maybe we just did
something wrong, right, heunderstands that too.
He can help us learn how to youknow, or at least give us the
strength to get back up and tryagain and do something.

(55:05):
Do something like that you knowI've had.
I've had a million challengesin my life that you know I got.
I've had a million challengesin my life that you know I got
sued a couple years ago.
That cost me a lot of money totry to defend and it was
completely bogus.
But they were accusing me oflike horrible things that you
know like if they happened to betrue, I would have gone to jail
for like 10 years Like crazystuff Right, like fraud, wire

(55:28):
fraud type stuff, and it was allbogus, it all got dismissed and
all those things right.
But facing those things like man, it it like really works at you
.
You know, and you know anybody,if you, if you, if you raise
capital and you do whatever you,people are going to come after
you.
Whether you're successful ornot successful, they're going to
come after you for more moneyand say they deserve more and

(55:49):
whatever.
Like it's just part of the gameand so I'm not, I'm not mad
about that anymore, but at thetime man that was, I had to, I
had to like study peoplethroughout history that were
accused of things that clearlyweren't you know were false, and
how did they deal with that?
That public, you know you.

(56:09):
That public, you know peoplelooking down on you or maybe
just privately, like man.
How do I deal with that?
Why, this isn't fair, like, whyis this happening to me?
Like why, why, right, trying toanswer those, why questions has
been really, really tough, whyare these challenges coming
Right?
And I understand.
I, like you know, if I'msitting on the other side and
someone's telling me thesethings, I'm sitting on the other

(56:30):
side and someone's telling methese things, I'm saying, look,
you got to trust the process.
You learn.
You know, what am I supposed tolearn here?
What you know, you becomestronger through trials.
When everything's going great,you're not really learning.
When you have trials, youbecome stronger, and so I've
been able to, I've been able towork through those things and
study lots of wonderful people,whether they're prophets or just
great other people, or even thesavior himself.
How did he deal with?
You know, he was accused of allkinds of things, right, and how

(56:52):
did he deal with that?
How can I take a perfectapproach to responding to this?
And did I nail it.
No, I probably got an F on that, but you know.
But I appreciate the trials, Iappreciate the challenges, I
appreciate when I roll upsidedown.
Kayaking is one of those thingswhere you get immediate
feedback.
If you do it wrong, you'reupside down right, or you know

(57:12):
something like that.
Or if you're, you know, ifyou're mountain biking, you know
you do something weird.
Boom, you know.
Okay, now you're bleeding onyour elbow and whatever.
I appreciate those sports andextreme sports.
There's that immediate feedback, like okay, I did something
wrong, now let me think about itand sometimes I won't right.

(57:38):
There's a huge rapid down inMexico called meat grinder and
it lives up to its name.
It's terrifying, one of themost terrifying rapids I've ever
done and the first time I didit I got meat grinded.
I just got sucked right intothis about a 30, again, probably
about a 35 foot drop, but allthe water is just coming right
into this like hole and I justwent right down into the hole
just washing machine for 10, 12seconds, then roll up and it was

(58:00):
like like just so tired, itwears you out, it wears your
muscles out really fast.
Fighting water, water alwayswins.
In the long run.
They will win right.
Water never gives up and youwill eventually so anyway.
They will win right.
Water never gives up and youwill eventually so anyway.
But you're just throwing youaround and then finally I'm up
and I'm just like, okay.
But then a couple of days laterwe came back and I'm like I'm
going to get this right.
And even though I had beenwashing machined, I knew what I

(58:26):
had done wrong and I knew what Ineeded to try this time.
And this time I over-corrected,went straight up and backwards
down the same thing, you knowanyway.
So I got meat grinded againtwice in a row and now I want to
go do it again so that I canget.
I've only done it twice.
It's hard to get in there.
It's a crazy, epic adventure.
Again, part of that article, ifyou want to, if you want to read
about it, see a picture of it.
Challenges though they they're,they give you feedback, right,

(58:47):
they teach you about yourselfand they give you opportunities
to grow.
Ultimately, that's what, what.
That's why we're here on earth.
It's a test to see how werespond to the bad times and
whether or not we stay faithful.
Right, someone?
I studied a lot.
I studied a lot was Job.
Job had everything go wrong,right, god, let him let Satan

(59:09):
test Job.
Everything go wrong, right God,let him let Satan test Job.
Satan was sure he would give upand he didn't.
God or Job.
Job had a lot of questions.
He asked why?
A lot of times, but he but he's.
But he never said you know, Iforsake thee.
Right, he never gave up.
He never blamed God.
He just asked why?

(59:30):
What am I supposed to learnhere?
Right and man, if you just keepasking that question and
working hard and being faithfuland doing everything you can,
then you're going to get through.
You're going to get throughanything.
You know, I've been I told you,I think before we started this
call and I'm writing a bookcalled time and all eternity and
it's.
You know, I've got maybe 30pages of outlines and I've got

(59:51):
the whole first chapter written,things like that.
So it's, I could probably knockit out in a month if I really,
really dedicated myself andpushed everything else aside.
But I have, you know, I don'tknow, probably ADD or something
like that.
I like to do a lot of things,but that book, that book is
about, you know, the idea behindit is.
I want to do all these thingsand I don't have enough time on
earth to do them, and so I haveto figure out, you know, how am

(01:00:12):
I going to spend my time wisely?
How am I going to figure it out?
And I've just been trying tofigure out.
Okay, god, what do you want meto do with my life?
Like, what's the main thing?
Like, I'm really good at thepiano and I compose and I write,
I put out albums of peacefulmusic and I do videos and I get
lots of followers and cool,right.
I also really love adventureand I also really, I actually

(01:00:38):
really love building thesoftware and being an
entrepreneur and trying to putsolutions into the world that
can help with whatever, and, andI like doing all these things
and I can keep going, right, Icould.
There's about 10 things I wantto do and I just can't do them
all, and so I've been reallypraying a lot, saying what?
Please just tell me, right,that's what I want.
But I got the answer, like twodays ago, from President

(01:00:59):
Uchtdorf or from Elder Uchtdorf.
He and his wife spoke to theyoung adults and I didn't watch
that fireside I think it wasSunday, maybe Saturday, just a
few days ago, but I saw a clipof it the next day that some one
of these awesome you knowchurch Instagram pages posts and
he basically said that Josephand and and crew were asking
what should we do now?

(01:01:19):
What should we do next, whatshould we do with this?
And he said his answer was itmattereth not do what you want.
Figure it out right, go do whatyou want, like yes.
Sometimes God is going to saylike he did for my dad back in
1998, he said I'm going to youwere planning on moving to Utah.
I'm going to detour you forthree years.
I'm going to send you on amission, then you can go to Utah

(01:01:40):
.
Right, and you got to bewilling at the time when God
says I need you for a minute tosay yes, or maybe I need you for
an apostle's lifetime, right,maybe I need you for 50 years.
And I think a lot of us wouldbe willing to do that and we're
kind of all looking for that, Ithink.
I think a lot of times we'resaying what should I do?
I want to do what you want meto do when God's saying no, I

(01:02:06):
need you to grow and figure thatout for yourself.
It matter if not?
And then he adds one more tagthat's important Only be
faithful, just do what you'resupposed to be good, live all
the principles, keep yourcovenants, do the things you
know you're supposed to do.
And it doesn't matter if you'rea janitor or a CEO or a kayaker
or a musician or an influenceror a homemaker or whatever a
chicken tender, right.

(01:02:28):
Whatever the heck you want todo, do that thing, nuts, go big,
be rich.
Don't be rich.
Go be the president, go bewhatever you know.
And now again, like I said, Ido believe that some people are
pushed in certain directions andI've.
I've asked myself many timeslike man, I've got this gift,
I'm in the top one percent ofone percent of pianists in the

(01:02:48):
world.
Should I go all in on that?
And I've definitely put morefocus on that, probably over the
last year.
But I still feel poles towardsthe other things that I want to
do.
But I've just felt an amazingpiece over the last two or three
days thinking about like itjust boom from from elder
Uchtdorf when he said that I waslike it matters not.

Speaker 1 (01:03:07):
It matters not.

Speaker 2 (01:03:12):
Okay, I'm not supposed to just see, but my, my
problem was this, and I'mdefinitely guilty of this I
think I was putting off a lot ofthings that I wanted to do,
waiting for an answer on whichone should I start, which one
should I really go in all in on,like I want to do this and I
want to do this, but but tell me, tell me what I'm supposed to
do and I'll go that direction.
Right, and I just said that,like blanks, it matter.

(01:03:32):
If not, okay, fine.
Oh my gosh, I all of a suddenfeel energized to say I'm just
gonna start doing stuff and andyou know, elder could talk a
little bit more, and otherpeople have talked about a lot.
Right that the the two roadstalk from elder holland.
Right, where you know you godown this path and wait.
You sent me down the wrong path.
But you did it quickly and boom, there was a.
There was an obstacle there.
So I quickly knew I me down thewrong path.

(01:03:53):
But you did it quickly and boom, there was a.
There was an obstacle there.
So I quickly knew I went downthe wrong path.
Okay, we got to backtrack andnow we're good on the right one,
right, I do believe that.
I believe that God will.
You know, once we start goingdown a path, if we happen to
choose poorly, he'll, he'll helpus out.
Yeah, for sure.
It's not like an Indiana Jones,where you drink the wrong cup
and it's over, right, yeah,right, get up and go do
something, and it matters not,and you're going to run into

(01:04:15):
obstacles, you're going to hurtthings, you're going to hurt
yourself, you're going to youknow whatever and fix those
things.
Do better, work hard and aslong as you follow that tag,
only be faithful, be faithful,absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:04:28):
You'll be fine, john.
This was fun, this wasfascinating for me to learn
about kayaking for one, but two,just to learn about who you are
, and I know, before I eventalked to you today, I was kind
of like looking at who you wereand what you've done.
I'm like man, this guy's doneeverything and I'm in my mind
too I've I kind of felt thatoverwhelmed, like he's done so
much, and so I appreciate yousharing this, because it

(01:04:51):
mattereth not only be faithful.
I think that's a great lessonin everything in our adventures,
in our lives, with our familiesbeing faithful.
So I appreciate you sharingthat.
Thank you so much for coming onJourney with Jake.

Speaker 2 (01:05:05):
My pleasure.
Thanks so much for having me,Jake.

Speaker 1 (01:05:07):
A special thank you to John Cheney for joining me on
the show and sharing his loveof kayaking, music, creativity
and the many life lessons he'slearned along the way.
To keep up with John, be sureto follow him on Instagram at
Cheney Piano that isC-H-E-N-E-Y-P-I-A-N-O, and to

(01:05:36):
hear more of his beautiful pianomusic, visit johncheneycom.
That's J-O-N-C-H-E-N-E-Ycom.
John, thank you again forinspiring all of us with your
journey and the person you are.
Guests like John are what makethis podcast so special, and I
want to take a moment to thankall of my past and future guests
.
Journey with Jake has led me tomore friendships and connections
than I ever could have imagined, and I'm truly grateful for
that.
I'm also incredibly grateful toyou for tuning in.
With millions of podcasts outthere, the fact that you take

(01:05:58):
the time to listen means theworld to me.
If you enjoy the show, pleaseconsider leaving a rating and
review on Apple Podcasts orSpotify.
It is one of the best ways tohelp others discover Journey
with Jake.
And, speaking of Journey withJake, we have another fantastic
guest coming your way next weekto help others discover Journey
with Jake.
And speaking of Journey withJake, we have another fantastic
guest coming your way next weekI had the pleasure of talking

(01:06:18):
with Ross Alcorn, who discoveredhis passion for travel,
especially helping othersexperience it.
That passion led to him starthis own business and podcast,
and I can't wait for you to hearhis story.
Remember, it's not always aboutthe destination, as it is about
the journey.
Take care everybody.