EP. 179 - 'Brave New Work: How Filmmakers Are Adapting in a Difficult Climate' (Live at _And Friends) - Just Get A Real Job

Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Hello, I'm Jamie McKinley and welcome back to Just Get a Real
Job. Thank you, as always for tuning
in to the podcast. I'm really excited to finally be
putting this one out. This is a live event we did back
in June, which we recorded in collaboration with and Friends,
which is run by former guest KatMcLeod.
And we were joined by an amazingpanel of film makers from

(00:26):
various different levels. And yeah, it was.
We kind of chatted all about thesort of DIY approach that many
people are having to take to film making and being creative
at a time where things are really difficult and there's
less opportunities in the screenindustry and less funding
available and things like. That so it was a really useful.
And very interesting chat. I think one of the main
takeaways from it was the importance of collaboration and

(00:47):
how finding like minded people to work with, especially when
resources are tight, can go a long, long way.
But I won't spoil anything. I would let you listen to the
episode and get the takeaways from it.
But yeah, we were joined on thispanel by it was A and brilliant.
It was really big panels where I'm not used to having this many
guests on one episode. But we were joined by former
guest and BAFTA award-winning writer Michael Lee Richardson.

(01:09):
We were joined by filmmaking duoBlade and Bold.
We were joined by filmmaker Valerie Andrews as well and the
wonderful Dylan Blower. So a really, really lovely panel
of guests. I'm honestly really happy to
finally be putting this one out.It's been sitting in the back
archives for a long time. One thing to quickly say is did
have some technical mishaps regarding this one sadly and I

(01:29):
lost some of my my own audio. So I've sort of salvage this
together with the audio we did take on the day.
I think the guests all sound really good.
My audio is not as good. I've had sort of enhancements
that my my microphone failed first behind the scenes info for
you, but you can still hear me. I'm a bit quieter than the
guests, but it doesn't take awayfrom the conversation.
It's still very, very much worthlistening to.
And this is audio only as well. We weren't able to get this one

(01:50):
videoed so. This one won't be on YouTube and
we're. Going back into the old days of
the podcast when it was audio only, a much simpler time, but
loving what we're doing at the moment.
And thank you as well everyone that's been listening to the
podcast. But some amazing engagement
recently. I'm really pleased with how
people have engaged with last weeks chat with wonderful Philip
Ralph as well. Go and check out our
conversation about class in the TV industry if you haven't yet.

(02:11):
It's well worth for listening aswell.
And the other thing I want to quickly add is that I recorded
this live show in two parts. So in Part 1, I was joined by
Michael and Valerie, and then inPart 2 I was joined by Blade and
Bowl and and Dylan Bloor. And then after that I had all
the guests back on stage and we did some audience Q&A just in
case you were confused at the start of the episode.
But here we go, Episode 179. I hope you enjoy.

(03:02):
Just. Get a real job.
So to start off the show first, we're going to welcome BAFTA
winning, may I add, Michael Lee Richardson.
Here we go. How you come, Michael And
Valerie Andrews. Well, how you come?

(03:22):
How are you both? Thank you for coming in.
Good, good. Thank you.
Thank you for having me. Michael, we had you on the
podcast three years ago. It's a long time.
A long time but doesn't it didn't feel like 3 years when I
when I was thinking about it. Doesn't does it?
It took. No.
But then I listened back to thatrecently, like, because I knew I
was coming here and I was like, ah, bless her.

(03:44):
She didn't know what was happening.
She didn't know what was to come. 1st, I want to show thank
you for for joining us oh. Yeah.
Hi, I suppose. A good place is that you would
you both want to introduce yourselves and tell us, remind
us, tell us what you do, what your sort of filmmaking is, and
then we'll get in and chat a bitmore.
Making films in 2025 and workingI.

(04:07):
I've got to probably say upfrontlike I am in such a weird mood
at the minute, like today in general and like this this year.
There was a mantra last year of survive till 2025.
And I feel like like a lot of ushave survived, but at what cost?
Because it is the Wild West at the minute in film and TV.

(04:30):
So I guess I'm Michael Lee Richardson.
I'm a writer and director in film and TV and and a bunch of
other things as well, but mostlyin mostly in TV.
I'm best known for a short film called My Loneliness is Killing

(04:51):
Me, which won a BAFTA Scotland award many, many moons ago.
And work across film and TV havedone a lot of stuff off my own
back, but then a lot of stuff ina sort of funded space and in a
Commission space. And then they're like.

(05:12):
So I feel like I've got a lot totalk about and I hope I can make
it relevant and eloquent and useful to people.
I'm. Sure, you.
Do fingers crossed. Yeah, I joined Chichi yourself
so. So my name is Valerie, I'm an
actor, but because life is life,also a producer.

(05:32):
I've started more in theatre. But I got into film back home in
Guatemala. So I produced my first short
film in 2019 and then it premiered in our national
festival in 2020. And then I've done a couple of
short films here. The most recent one, it's called
Faithful. You can find a, an STV player

(05:52):
now. We crowdfunded everything.
So we know about, you know, making a film on no money or
like everybody else's money and making that amount of money be
stretched until, until there's no more money left, essentially.
But yeah, I'm more of a newcomer, not like Mr Michael

(06:14):
here. I don't feel like I'm an old
Comer. And well, I suppose a good place
to start. You both touched on, you talked
about your roles and how the sort of different aspects them.
So you both work across different disciplines And how
does that affect filmmaking? Like what, how do you take those

(06:34):
other skills? So say you work a theatre, then
you work a lot like we work together on TV before you, you
know, you've written plays as well and you do a bit of
teaching and you podcast have a podcast as well.
But how do they all blend into how do you take those
transferable skills into filming?
I think it's all across everything that I'm doing.
It's all storytelling and it's all about communication.

(06:57):
Even the teaching part of it, I think is storytelling a lot of
the time. So I think I don't necessarily
see a massive amount of difference between them all.
I often if I have an idea, it sort of comes to the, the thing

(07:18):
that I'm going to do it through comes with the idea.
So it'll be like, I've got this idea and this is a short film,
or I've got this idea and I think this is a short story and
I've got this idea and it might be, you know, something else.
And, and that's tends to be how it works for me.
I'm a visual storyteller first and foremost, so it often comes

(07:38):
through like a film idea or a anidea for ATV thing.
But I don't see a massive amountof difference between all of
them actually. Like I think for me, I learned
stuff from each different thing that I've taken to the other

(08:01):
one. The thing I've done most
recently that's coming back recently, I did a audio drama a
couple of years ago, a radio play.
And I remember having my first kind of commissioning meeting
about that radio play. And the, the producer was like,
oh, radio is the most visual medium.
And I was like, I don't know if you know, but you can't see it

(08:23):
like it's on the radio like likewhat you want about.
But then she, she was right. Like the, the more I got into it
is a visual medium. You have to create the visual
for the listener. And I think I learned more about
visual storytelling from that than I have from any film that
I've written. So I think it all just you, you

(08:43):
learn something from each, each thing that you take into the
next. And sometimes you learn from the
like, actually, I think the things you learn the most from
are things that don't work, likethe, the flops and the failures.
And like, as as difficult as those things can be, when you're
like, oh, this hasn't quite articulated the way I wanted it
to articulate you will, I think you, you often, I often realise

(09:10):
like 18 months down the line, oh, I needed that thing to get
to this thing to, to articulate this thing.
I feel like I'm being quite vague but I don't want to tell
on any projects or people. So I think for me it's a
learning from the mistakes of. I think in theatre the mistakes

(09:32):
happen as everything is happening.
In film you can if you do a goodpre production you can avoid a
lot of those things and I think learning from theatre to fix on
the go then that taught me how to fix on the go in film.
I think for me the biggest lesson I think is for example, I
am apparently can't confirm goodat writing dialogue as an actor.

(09:54):
I feel like as actors that becomes our greatest strength
where we know how people speak and how people interact.
Can I write structure or do structure?
Fuck no. And that's why I like there's
other people for that. But for me it was also really
interesting the decentering of the actor.
Cause in theatre you can get away with a lot of stuff not in
the space not you don't really need anything other than quite

(10:15):
capable actors. Whereas in film you are quite
subjected to the technical aspect.
So also learning to value all ofthe work that the technical
people are doing in film, that was a lot like a really big
experience for me. Because then if none of the
technical aspects work, the filmdoesn't exist anyway.

(10:36):
So you kind of have to have yourteams.
Everyone needs to be fed. Do you know what I mean?
And that sort of stuff, yeah. And something I want to come
back to Michael touch that at the start as well.
It's a weird time survive Type 5was the sort of thing last year.
I we've done a lot of work on just get rid of recently about
the crisis facing the TV and there's when I cost a living

(10:58):
crisis affect an entire creativeindustry.
I mean, it's hard. It's just hard in general to
live in the UK financially at the moment.
So which is obviously having an effect on the arts and stuff.
But where do you both think filmmaking and being a creative
is that like, because it's obviously really tricky to get
things made. And I think what we're going to
explore about today's how peopleare doing it on a few string and
finding ways to adapt and make work and stuff.

(11:19):
So firstly, where do you think it's at?
And then maybe unpack that bit for.
Oh, wow, that's a big question. I guess I kind of touched on
this at the start. I have been thinking about
coming here to do this today allweek because it's been a week
without going into too much, butlike it's been a week in terms

(11:42):
of sort of actually a week in terms of nothing happening in
film and TV. Like, you know, and it's like
everything feels frozen in placeat the minute.
I think that's the thing. And I think people feel quite
frozen in place by what's happening or not happening in
film and TV and in particular inScotland.

(12:06):
I think so I think where it's atnow is I think what's I'm being
optimistic. I think what's happening is the,
the tail end of a, of a, of a like huge amount of different
really shit circumstances that kind of start with the pandemic,

(12:27):
maybe start with Brexit, maybe start with the fucking birth of
the universe to play this was you like, like you keep going
back as far as you want, but like, like, I think we're at the
tail end of this, this difficultperiod.
And I think it means that everything is frozen in place
and people don't really know what the doing.

(12:50):
I I, I've articulated it recently in a couple of
different places that I feel at the minute like I'm in the bit
of the Wizard of Oz where she where they pull the curtain back
and she sees that it's just a bloke.
And I feel like I'm there with film and TVI feel like I've
pulled the curtain back and it'sjust a bloke and and he does not

(13:13):
know what he's fucking doing. Yes, yes, yeah.
So I think, I think it's in a very, very strange place.
I think what's happening is interesting because I think
people are getting tired of that.
I think people have put actuallywhat I think has happened is I

(13:34):
think we have put a lot of stockin different ways of funding
film and TV that aren't really working at the now and might not
work ever again. And I think people are creating
new ways of doing that. And I think some of them will
stick and some of them won't, but it will be interesting to

(13:55):
see what happens. Yeah, I wanted to be inspiring
today. And I think I might just be
frightening so. But.
But my thing often actually, when I I do a lot of talks with,
I teach a little bit and talk with students quite a lot and
stuff like that. And my thing often with film and
TV is if you can do anything else, then do something else.

(14:15):
Because this is a really hard job.
And I think if you're, if you hear that and you're like, I
still want to do it, then you are going to do it because a lot
of this is you just have to do it anyway and like keep going
even when the wheels have fallenoff.
Do you know what I mean? Yeah.
And I also think it's important to just be honest, like.

(14:37):
Yes, yes. I mean, the one thing that I
used to get really wound up by that this and I, I still do, and
I think it's come back a little bit recently actually, is being
at like things like this and things like, you know, like
talks from, from like writers and directors and stuff like
that. And people will be like, you can
just make a film on your phone and it's like, no, you can't.

(14:59):
Because what you're going to do with that and it all looks shit
and like, like you, you need other people and you need to
like connect with people who cando things to like to, to do.
I think often you're The thing is you end up getting advice
from people who have never done the thing that they're telling
you to do. And that can be very, very

(15:19):
frustrating. Yes.
I mean, so many of those things you'd go to and it'd be like, I
just like one day was like, I'llgive it a shot at writing and
like my dad was friends with thedirector of the BBC or
something. And yeah, yeah.
Which is just not the case for alot of us.
So yeah, I think, I think thingsare in a we had placed just now,

(15:41):
but we're going to go to an interesting place soon, in a
good way, I hope, yeah. OK, Valerie, what, what, what's
your sort of take on this, especially, you know, coming to
swelling and seeing it from maybe like a different
perspective as well, like comparing it to like.
Well, another industry, I mean, I laughed because there's no

(16:02):
industry in my country. So like, whatever you have here,
it's better. I mean, after living here for
five years, I'm a bit like, alsofor me, it's a lack of bravery
in investing in new ideas and people.
And it's also, I've met a coupleof people who direct some of the
big places here and they are just silly people.

(16:25):
Like I sat with one who I've corresponded with for a long
time and then he was like, oh, are you this person?
And I'm like, we, we've emailed a lot and then he's just a silly
man. And I'm like, and you get to
choose the future of TV. So also that silly man can do
it. Like surely I can.
Do you know what I mean? And I hate like I agree with you

(16:47):
in the you, like, you just can'tmake it.
But I'm at the point in my career where I'm like, you know
what, I am just going to make it'cause you're not going to give
me the money. You already exclude me 'cause
I'm a foreigner. So actually fuck you and I.
But I do agree with you. I do think we are at the like
back end of the worst bit. And if there is a time I think
for a bit of revolution and everything, it is now because

(17:08):
there's nothing. So if you want to try something
a bit Wilds, it might be now. Like we got our film funded by
other people because it was wildat the time.
So that's potentially why I havea bit more faith.
But we were very lucky. Like, I'm not going to lie, it
was a stroke of luck in some bits, not the other bits.
I don't, I don't know, I'm quiterebellious in that regard.

(17:30):
So I might be one of those people that like, yeah, go
fucking do it. And like, it might not be
realistic, but I think I, I don't know where you come from,
having nothing, having the little prospect of maybe there's
something at the end of this. I'm like, you know what?
I'm I'm gonna go see if I can find it.
And I have found Scottish people, put them primarily to be

(17:53):
really generous people. So a lot of people that have
asked to help and do stuff, theyare there.
So I feel like you can do it. But it's it's in a place where
you have unions and people who protect you and like minimum
wages and all that. Seeing that not be protected, I
can also see why that's just terrible.
And so, yeah, I agree with you. I think we're at the verge of

(18:13):
something interesting happening.This stuff is good.
Yeah. I, I suppose then on that the,
the positive side of this question, right, you've both
made work in high circumstances.So that what are some of the
ways that we can take the terrible situation and like
still manage to make work in it and do things kind of outside

(18:34):
the box DIY, like be brave to sort of speak to the theme of
this event. I think a big thing that you can
do, I think the thing that you have to do is surround yourself
not with like, yes, people, but like with people who can do
things that you can't do. And, and because I think about

(18:56):
this a lot, I think we have lotsof conversations about money.
And like film is an expensive gig.
Like you kind of can't do it without a little bit of money or
a little bit of backing or a little bit of something or being
able to find where to get that. Like you need a camera, you need
sound stuff you need. But I think particularly in

(19:19):
short film, and I'm really like passionate about short film as a
medium in and of itself, not just as a means to like making a
feature film. Like I think short film is an
art form that we we that they appreciate a lot more in other
places in the world, Not that wedon't necessarily hear.
I think particularly in short film, you kind of surround

(19:42):
yourself with people who will help you out on the
understanding that you will helpthem out on their thing.
And like, like if you go into something and it's like, well,
nobody's going to get paid, thenthat's fine.
I think often like if, if you are, if you are going to make
loads of money off something andthen you're expecting other

(20:02):
people to work for free, I thinkthat's not on.
But like if it's just like we'regoing to make something because
we want to like. Get something made and we want
to try out something new. We want to like, you know, get
something that's that we can allbe proud of and and make a bit
of art together. Then I think that's, that's the
way to do it. So I think my my key thing is

(20:23):
like surround yourself with people who are going to like be
on your frequency and like kind of that you can bolster each
other like you, you need that network and you, you, you won't
be able to do it without that network.
Is is my thing. Did that answer the question?
Yeah. There's a lot of ways you could

(20:44):
get stuff done and I think you'dbe hard for you to and I could
even answer, say all the ways that.
Yeah, yeah. But I but I think like just just
finding those people and findingthe way you're going to find
those people is the thing because it doesn't all have to
be done. You've built your network people
because you teach a course on this as all right of.

(21:07):
Course I do. Yeah, I think social media is a
really good one. I think it's less and less good
now that everything's broken andterrible.
Don't go. I'm not telling you like don't
go on Twitter. I'm not telling anyone to get
Twitter at this point in their life.
But I think social media can be really useful.
I think going to stuff, stuff like this, going to like stuff

(21:30):
that GMAC run, going to the short Film Festival, like just
meeting people, meeting people who like things that you like is
a really good starting point, I think.
And and building your network from there.
Like, and maybe not framing it as networking, framing it as
like making pals. Like have you ever made a Powell

(21:51):
then than you've already startednetworking.
Yeah, I think I think just goingto stuff and meeting people and
like turning up to things is really useful.
And not, not necessarily to see it as transactional, like,
because I think that can be a bit of a sort of crunchy thing
for me. When I know someone, I, I can

(22:14):
spot the difference now between someone chatting to me because
they want to like talk about stuff and like hear about stuff
and share ideas and information and stuff.
And when they're like talking tome because they know I work for
different places and might be able to like, like, like I know
when people are talking to me because they want their film on
that Glasgow Short Film Festivaland that's not my call.

(22:36):
So that's a dead end of a conversation anyway.
But like, I think, I think like,just just talk to people is a
great starting point. Yeah.
And build that network. Interesting, Valerie, some of
them that you've also made filmsand I've, you know, as you said,
been you had you said you were lucky, but again, it's not just

(22:56):
luck because you'd had to put the work in and stuff.
But like, hey, what sort of strategies have you found to get
things made in such a hard climate funding wise that you
said you raised the money yourself and stuff like that?
Yeah. So we went through the
crowdfunding route, I will say. So I got the job producing
Faithful via Twitter. I literally went, hi, I'm trying
to start producing in like Scotland.

(23:19):
Does anyone have a job? These people contacted me and
that's how we started. But then we ran a crowdfunding
campaign and then I made them atleast back home.
Whenever we share, I used to share my place and if you share
a poster that's got no one's face in it, it would get no
traction. And then we started sharing
posters with people faces in it and people speaking, whatever.

(23:41):
I made the director, myself and the producer make a little video
of everyone being like, I'm doing this film because, you
know, I love the script and whatever.
But like, obviously, honestly, like This is why I love this
film. I thought it was a great script,
whatever. And then one of our actors
shared it on their social media and then some random man in
England saw it and he was like, oh, you know what?

(24:02):
I actually love what you guys are saying.
And it turns out that this man like works for pharmaceuticals,
whatever. And he was like, oh, I'm just,
you know, really interested in the arts and like helping people
out. And then he helped us out.
So I also feel like even though you can expand your actor friend
network, which I really believe in because all of the people
here that I've met are the ones who have got me jobs.

(24:23):
There's also an interesting likeof people in the world, I think,
who are like entrepreneurs and, you know, business owners and
any of the above who are quite interested to go into the arts
but a bit scared of it. That if you're lucky to find one
of them, they are quite like oldschool.
Oh, who are the Italian ones andthe people who funded everyone.

(24:45):
I can't remember the name. This is sounding really good out
of me. And but there is a pot of people
that really want to invest in the arts and I've been seeing a
lot of them now. There's a film happening around
here where they only want to be funded by women venture
capitalists. And there's a big pot of people
that are interested in this, be it because they'll get tax cuts,
be it for every reason that theywant.

(25:07):
So it's also interesting to go events where it's about like
being entrepreneurial and all these like buzz words that
actually give me the ick. It's like investor event.
Yes, but because they're interested, it's a weird mix
that I've not figured out yet, but I found a lot of people that
are interested in investing in things and investing in.
So they're they don't want to invest in your film, they want
to invest in you. So people want to invest in

(25:30):
other people's careers as well. So it is quite a good like I do
believe sadly in the power of networking and I'm but I also
just love a chat, you know, like, I'll just sit and be like,
ah, what do you do? And then I think appealing to
your own circle of people, our crowd founder did really well
with our own people. And also people in the US seem

(25:52):
to be obsessed with, you know, alittle bit of like Scotland's
fetish sort of weird thing that we did really well in the US And
so also finding that sort of, I hate myself right now.
You're like Ausp, your unique selling point and as to why the
project you're making is unique and whatever, but why that would

(26:12):
appeal to people and then find away to appeal to people.
Oh, you can tell into Business School.
Disgusting. I, I think that like, I think, I
think that's something you need to do anyway if you're making a
film, because you're going to have to do it.
You like, whether you like it ornot.
You can't, well, you can, you can make it just a film to make

(26:33):
a piece of art and, and it is anart form and you have to treat
yourself like an artist. But on the other side of having
made the film, you're going to have to get it out there.
So you have to kind of do that thinking at some point anyway of
like, what is the unique sellingpoint?
Like what is this about and who is it for and what's the
audience and where am I going toplace it?

(26:54):
So you might as well kind of do it beforehand.
I think the other thing that I've been thinking about, the
other thing that I think is useful actually, I'm just not
that venture capitalist diva. Like I don't want to be around
those people. But like the other place I've
had some success with this stuffis working with charities.
I'm not saying like if you're making a film, go to a charity

(27:16):
and ask them for money. But I did a film a few years ago
about it was about a kind of trans refugee experience, but
through the medium of football, which is a weird thing that I
keep ending up writing about even though I know nothing about
football and care even less. But I like, I like writing about

(27:38):
friendships. And that's a good place you can
put friendships. So we made this film directed by
Jack Lawson. It's called Who I Am Now about a
trans refugee experience put through the medium of football.
And we ended up working with Leap Sports Scotland, who kind
of work with, it's kind of an equalities sports organisation

(28:00):
that, that, that helps connect LGBT people with sports.
And they, they gave us a little bit of money, but they connected
us with like Dumbarton football grounds.
So we got to shoot there. They connected us with like a,
yeah, GBT men's football team and they're all the extras in
the film and stuff like that. So like you, you, you use your

(28:20):
network and then you tap into other people's if you can.
Like that's my, my one bit of lesson from today, I guess.
So like if you've got, if you work somewhere interesting, like
can you film something there if you like, you know, I mean like,
is there something you can tap into?
I suppose it's intro again, all kind of ties into networking and

(28:43):
I think it just again, shows that you can't just make a film
yourself. You do need some collaborators,
whether that's in the distribution, get into festivals
or anything. Yeah, for sure.
I mean, that's what both your answers have been different, but
they all, I suppose they're bothabout having to find a network
and meet people at work with other people to get things made.
And I had another question, which is, yeah, kind of what

(29:04):
your biggest lesson from making a film was like the all trades
for like. Never work with kids, dogs and a
night shoot no dogs. No, I mean no, I mean I'm lying.
But like for the first thing I produce here, it's a logistical
nightmare. It actually went really well.

(29:25):
But the weather here that I don't need to tell you this, but
you know what I mean, like the the unpredictability.
It was mid March and all the above.
No, I would say I like it's not,this is not original anything.
I really think your pre production needs to be the thing
that you invest the most time in1-2.

(29:48):
You need a team of people that you can trust and that you can
communicate. I know that sometimes that's
hard. If you are outsourcing some
things you might not know people.
So you kind of have to wing it there.
It also depends on like what type of person you are.
So I'm not necessarily a money producer in the sense of like,
I'm good, I'm not the greatest at getting money, but I'm like a
people Wrangler. Like people say that I should be

(30:11):
a first AD, but that I feel likethat would break my nervous
system. So I'm like, no, but if you find
a system of people that you can work with, whenever something
went wrong, we could, I could rely on all of the people that
I'd met there. And we also had a plan.
So if anything went badly, therewas a Plan B, there was
something else. And these guys are really wanky.

(30:33):
But I'm also like, we were also motivated by the film and by
what we wanted to achieve that this year.
Like people saying we couldn't do it was really the fuel.
Like I, I thrive on pettiness. Like I'm like you told me, I
can't do it. I will.
But I would say pre production, if you can nail your pre
production with plan A, Plan B and even plan C and then a team

(30:59):
that communicates efficiently, Iwould say is the things that
would have saved me nightmares like after like I've learned
lessons after where I'm like, this is where we're really well
with that one. This is where we fell like we
actually fell through on the other one.
So I would say your pre production needs to be on spot
and then just having a team thatcommunicates efficiently.

(31:21):
And what are the next stages of that?
I like, I think people. Go yeah.
So it's available on STV if you want to watch it, it's on STV
and yeah, that's probably the easiest way that you can watch
it. We've been to a couple of
festivals with it. We actually been to comic cons
with it because we were like, this is where we'll find our
audience and we have found our audience within the Comic Con
world. And yeah, we're just hopefully

(31:43):
it'll become a feature film. It's got the like it's got the
arms, legs and back to be a feature.
But obviously for that we need alot of money and it because it's
kids dogs and like magic. The budget is they told me the
budget and I was like lots of money, lots of money.
But again, this is where you need to outsource to other

(32:07):
people where like I wouldn't be able to produce something like
that. But I love to learn from someone
that could do that because I don't I wouldn't know how to do
that. But I'm quite keen to see like
who can so. You work on some commercial
projects whether so you do like do you know you've got some

(32:28):
stuff in 12 ATV wise. I suppose it's different from
what you do yourself with shortsbecause you don't have to be as
like selling yourself commercialand which again, I'm not saying
selling yourself commercial a bad thing.
It's just you probably have to be as less living yes.
So I wondered how you switched that when you.
Were do you know, I think it when I was kind of thinking
about that question, I think it's about framing and the way

(32:50):
you frame a story, the way you go into a story.
I think I've got quite a commercial sensibility anyway.
Even when I'm making shorts and I'm sort of thinking about, I'm
not necessarily thinking about the audience.
I love this thing. I think this freaking.
That said, a film is a feelings business and it is.

(33:14):
And I think about how is the audience going to feel like?
How are they going to feel with the scene?
How are they going to feel with this project in general?
How do I want them to feel when they come out of the cinema
having watched it and stuff likethat?
And I think that is a really useful way of thinking about
your projects. And I use that across the board.
I often think it's about framing.
I've got a project that I was thinking of as a sort of

(33:39):
independent film type of projectfor a long time that I I had a
general meeting with someone talked about a couple of
projects. They just would not smelling
what I was stepping in. So it was like, oh, I've got
this other bloody thing in the back pocket.
It was the sort of the last thing that I thought to speak to
them about. And then obviously they were

(33:59):
kind of interested. And then I've, I've, I kind of
went away and I was like, oh, there's actually a version of
this that is more commercial. And here's the way into that
story. And they're the exact same
project. They're the exact same story.
It's just a slightly different framing.
And like you put the emphasis indifferent places depending on

(34:21):
where it's going. That sounds really sort of
vague, I think, but I know what I know what I'm talking about.
So I hope that at least 1% of people will pick that up.
But does that make sense? Like with this sort of indie
film version of this project, itwas an emotional journey,
emotional story and, and it and it still is.
It was about a friendship relationship.

(34:42):
It's about two people that are always in love, but with each
other, but at different times. Like we've all got one of those,
I'm sure like, you know, a love story, but they never quite
match up. And that's the story I'm
interested in telling. And then when I pitched it to
this company, I kind of went away and I was like, oh, but

(35:04):
there's a sort of procedural is the only way I can think of it.
But I sort of like a, it's set in a hospital.
It's got that sort of thing to it that they were interested in.
So, so I think you you're just putting the emphasis in
different places. Obviously, if you're making
independent film, you might haveto think about budgets and how

(35:27):
am I going to do things in slightly more interesting ways?
And like, you can't have a crowdscene and you might think you're
going to be able to get all yourfriends to come and be in like a
club scene or something, but only three of them will turn up.
So like, how are you going to dothat sort of thing?
Is it, you know, filming everything really tight
something arms coming in out of frames.
But yeah, you have to think about how you're going to do

(35:51):
things. But but don't let that stand in
the way of your storytelling. Is is my my thing That's.
Really interesting. So I've got one more question
for people and then we'll we'll get the the rest of pass and I
text Michael yesterday saying we're going to end up not
working again. So.
I think so. There's time.
Yeah, We still. But the last question is, what's

(36:11):
a small but purple one people have had recently?
Do you want to go first for thisone that has not been?
Any win? Oh my God, you go first.
I have to pay for this. Well, it's a small but powerful
win, actually. Actually, like a thing I've been
doing recently is, is, I think, I think because I work across

(36:34):
lots of different places and, and I also, I think a useful
thing to hear that is also more like sort of terrifying is I've
been worried about like film andTV and funding and, and what's
going to happen and stuff like that.
But I work across a few different industries and keep
encountering the fact that that's happening everywhere.
Like it's sort of happening in publishing, it's happening in

(36:56):
academia, like it's happening everywhere.
Like the old ways of work working are not working.
And there is going to be becausethere has to be a change.
There's going to be a change. It's the only thing that's
inevitable. A thing that I've been doing
recently is like, because thingsare so slow in film and TV, I've

(37:18):
been like writing short stories,like prose stories, and I've had
a couple of those accepted for publication.
So that's been a like a nice boon.
And I'm realising that some of those stories can become other
things eventually. So that's yeah, that's a nice
thing to think about. A small, a small win.

(37:39):
Yeah. We'll.
Work on. The powerful part?
Yes, we'll work on the powerful part.
I think some. I mean, yeah, I think I feel
like on the Tale of like 20 Rejections, I might say I did
have a play that I wrote. It's yeah, it's it's been

(38:00):
rejected, you know, quite like Iwould rather you tell me like
your writing sucks. Yeah.
But that's, I'm now turned it into a screenplay in Michael's
class. I'm now turned it into a
screenplay that I was like, obviously this can't be a
theatre play. Like I finally someone gave me
the feedback and I was like, wait, you know what?

(38:21):
Actually, you're right. That's not the medium for it.
And then when I realised it's a short film, it's actually quite
easier to achieve and I was like, oh wait, maybe I can do
this one by myself. Also, I'm going to stop
producing for others and just going to start producing for
myself and that sort of stuff. Well, listen, we're going to get
you both back on the end while we close them.
But thank you very much for yourtime both.

(38:41):
Appreciate it. Thank you.
Hello, it's Jamie here. I hope you're enjoying this
week's episode. It's just a quick one for me to
say that if you're listening to the podcast on Apple, Spotify or
whatever platform you engage with our show on, be sure to
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(39:02):
keep up with all the latest episodes and everything that's
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All the money we make goes back into the upkeep of the podcast.
Thank you for you continued support and we hope you enjoy
the rest of today's episode and joining the panel for the second

(39:25):
part, we've got Dylan Bloor and Blade in bold.
Thank you. Thank you very much.
How you doing guys? Thanks for waiting, watching in
the back to patiently waiting for your chance to.
No, that was fun. I was, yeah, I was getting lost.
They're very articulate people. So now I feel like I've got a
hard act to follow. And so I we kind of do what we
did last time. We'll go each go around and we
can introduce us as I know you're sort of a double, like

(39:45):
you're a duel, but you can both introduce yourself personally in
a bit of a how you met you're individuals.
Too, Yeah. Exactly.
Just go fast. Yeah, sure, why not?
Hi, I'm Haley. I'm a writer director and I'm
1/2 of blade and bow. Hi I'm.
Jamie, I'm a DOP and I'm the other half of blade and bow
which. Comes Blade and another good
clip. Yeah, I'm Blade and Cheese Bow.

(40:08):
She's a bit more elegant in her approach and I'm a bit more
like, fuck em up, let's go like so that's yeah, that's our our
stock answer for that. Sorry if that's not that
interesting, but. Yes, yeah, I'm Dylan.
I'm primarily an actor, but for the purposes of this
conversation, first time writer and director.

(40:29):
So the baby of the group for sure, very much approaching this
from. Yeah, the first time learning
everything. Yeah.
Yeah, well, Dylan, a probably a good place to start.
It's kind of similar to what we were asking the others about
transferable skills, working across different mediums.
So actually done a lot of actingand some, you know, big stuff.
You've been in Atlanta, Shetland, The Chief and stuff

(40:50):
like that. You'd like done a lot of stuff.
So what was it like making a film and a completely opposite
of that, Yeah. You're not turning up somewhere
and someone's do, you know, got everything in place.
You're having to sort of make everything happen.
Yeah, I mean, it was impostor syndrome is definitely the
phrase of the day for that. But I think I really enjoyed,
what I really enjoyed about it was being in control, kind of

(41:11):
like you're saying. I think I find when you're on
set as an actor, you kind of nobody really tells you
anything. You do get treated kind of like
glass a lot of the time. And I think as somebody that
likes to know everything that's going on and likes to feel kind
of creatively in control, I've always found that quite
difficult that you can kind of be, you know, you, you, you just

(41:34):
sort of bought on for however long it is, you're contracted
for and you do your work and yougo home and you don't while you
get to collaborate, you know, inbrilliant ways with brilliant
people. What I found that I was wanting
to collaborate more directly with every department, which I
think was the biggest transitionfor me was learning to
collaborate with, you know, sound design and the camera
department and the runners and the, the catering and all of

(41:57):
this stuff. And, and I got such a thrill
from that. I found that that that was such
a motivator for making the work was just collaborating with
people and working with people that normally you don't get to
maybe develop those relationships as much.
Yeah, that's interesting. And do you know, talk about
imposter syndrome making a film?Do you do you have imposter

(42:18):
syndrome being an actor and big?Oh, baby, yeah.
I mean, yeah, imposter syndrome is, I think, I feel like, I feel
like everyone gets it regardlessof what industry you're in or
regardless of what, what job you're doing.
But definitely, I mean, as an actor, which is, you know, that
was the thing that I've, I've, I've trained in and have worked
in for the past 6-7 years. But still every single day I'm

(42:41):
filled with imposter syndrome, which I, you know, I think
that's, I think it's a very dangerous thing because you need
to remind yourself that, that you're very, that you are
capable and that you're, you deserve to be there.
And I think something about stepping behind the camera
really helped me in front of thecamera was that I really
realised that everyone just knewwhat they were doing.

(43:03):
Like I feel like for for the past six years I've spent a lot
of time being like, oh man, everyone must think I'm rubbish.
Like everyone's looking at what I'm doing and criticising it.
This is crazy. And then as soon as I was on set
and I was watching other actors work, I was just like, Oh no,
you got, that's great. Everybody knows what they're
doing. Every department knew what they
were doing. And having that helicopter view

(43:24):
of trust, of just being able to see that everybody's mastered
their own little department was really freeing.
And it, it really marked a huge,I guess, transition for me
mentally to kind of trust myselfmore, not just as not just as as
an actor, but as a as a writer and a director and, and just

(43:45):
being able to trust that actually everybody knows what
they're doing. And maybe I can take some slack
off myself with that as well. Yeah.
It's interesting in positive syndrome, it's it's so common,
yeah. So many people in the criminal
should have yeah, tech producersthat, you know, I've gotten
positive syndrome and like. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, exactly that you it's crazy because the amount of
people that you say to like, oh,hang on, you were worried about
this. Like that's crazy.

(44:06):
You worried about this. I think that's something that
like, if I've met, if I've been doing a scene with, with an
actor and I'm thinking like, I'mterrified of you because you've
been doing this for 30 years andyou know, I can, I can, I've got
your entire CV in, in my head. And then, you know, they, they
say that they're actually, they're worried about this thing
or they're worried about the scene.
And you realise that actually everybody's worried.

(44:27):
And the moment that you acknowledge that actually that
fear is such a common humanity, it makes making things so much
easier because you realise we'reall, we all feel the same, and
that's OK. We don't need to pretend that
we're all filled with confidence.
Yeah. Yeah, completely.
Haley, do you want to sort of tell us about how the blade and
ball came? Yeah, we were very lucky in the

(44:50):
way that we just, it just kind of happened.
We were thrown together through RCS actually.
So we we studied filmmaking there and just kind of trauma
bonded and then the rest is history.
Basically. You just, we were just so lucky
to find, you know, someone who had a similar enough style but

(45:11):
was also different enough to bring a completely different
approach. And yeah, I mean, I think we've
just, we've meshed really well and it's that's why it lasted so
long. Yeah.
I don't know. I mean, our kind of origin story
is basically that we just thought we want to do.
We want to find a way to make what we love and just get more
practise and meet more creativesand make stuff.

(45:34):
So that was kind of the excuse for that.
That's how Blaydon Ball started.And now it's just kind of a
thing. You're stuck now, Jamie.
It's fine. I'm happy being stuck here.
Yeah. I mean, we started RCS in 2020,
so I don't know if you've ever tried to learn filmmaking
online. It sucks.

(45:56):
We read a camera manual. Shout out to Gav, he's amazing.
We read a camera manual online and like that was our first
camera class and it was just like, you can't.
And it was kudos to RCS for continuing to try to work in
this situation that none of us have ever been in.
But we didn't get to just practically get hands on camera

(46:17):
and start telling these stories and doing more.
So our second year, Haley's verygracious about this.
I kind of strong harmed her intolike, why don't we make a
company and we'll just do our own thing and we'll shoot our
own stuff and it'll be kind of fun and silly and it'll be
great. And it was fun and silly and
it's great. But it worked because we trust

(46:41):
each other. Like there's such a level of
trust there. That imposter syndrome is real.
Even when you feel like you're ababy in filmmaking.
We're not we're like toddlers. We're not that much farther
ahead of you. It's terrifying because you have
all these crew members looking to you like little baby birds.
Like now what do we do? And you're like looking behind
you, looking for the adult. But oh crap, that's us.

(47:04):
So we, we're very composed and public.
And then right before an event, we'll, we'll go to a quiet space
and just freak out and like calmeach other down.
But there's not, we're not worried about like letting the
other one down because they're both like, we're, we're going to
shit the bed, right? We're like, Yep, all right,
let's go. And then you go and do it.
So that that trust there helps us to continue to kind of fight

(47:28):
our way through figuring out howto be a company and how to make
films. And we got really, really lucky
in that because you don't often find that where you just mesh
with someone and it works. And it works creatively and you
can have conversations and you can disagree, but it's always
for the betterment of the project.
So that's why this marriage has worked for the past three years

(47:52):
and we're hoping for it to continue so.
I suppose a good question actually, because we were
talking a lot on the last part of the panel by collaboration
and your network's really important, but what makes a good
collaboration, especially being like a sort of duo and stuff
like is finding someone to collaborate with.
You know it's really important, but you also have to make sure
you've got a good relationship or otherwise it could be quite

(48:13):
quite you want. To take that one.
Oh gosh, yeah. I think, you know, it's, it's
definitely, it feels a lot of the time like gold dust when you
do actually find a collaborativepartner or creative, you know,
that meshes with you. It's definitely, it's been
trying at times, but it's just, yeah, no, it's, I think what is

(48:38):
a lot of the time is that we, we've, we just have to make
stuff, make films. And through that and through our
trusted collaborators, we've meta lot of really great people.
And it's the ones that you vape with, as you were saying
earlier, it's just kind of basically what's been said
already that are really important.
And you know you're going to hitit off and, and get on well on a

(48:59):
set if you vape work with them and they're really passionate
about the project as well. So I feel like it's so important
because film does take over yourlife a little bit and it can be
quite intense. So when you find the right
people and and have your tribe, it makes it so much easier.
It really does. So that's definitely a big

(49:19):
priority of ours. Yeah.
Our number one rule is just don't be a Dick.
Just don't be a Dick because it's really, it's tough.
So you want a supportive atmosphere and you want the set
to be as chill as possible because it's so hard.
So that's our number one rule. Just don't be a Dick and have
fun with it because we do love what we do.
It can be hard to remember at times, but it's important to try

(49:43):
and to remember that. So just find people who are
equally passionate about it and good pals because if you, if you
don't get on well, it's going tomake being on set just a hellish
experience and nobody wants that.
So that was a bit of a rant, buthopefully that answers that
question. As an actor, you need to glabber
all the time anyway, but when you went to start making your

(50:05):
own, would you were able to takewhat you've learned?
Yeah, I really did kind of goingoff the back of what what Haley
was saying. I think a big part of when we
started the project right from the get go, the biggest thing
that we wanted to do was just make it a positive experience.
I think I've been on one too many sets where that isn't the
case and it's just it can become, it can become a really

(50:28):
negative experience and it's really actually unnecessary.
It doesn't need the the film andTV doesn't need to be like that.
I appreciate obviously I'm coming from from an angle where
the stakes are a lot lower in terms of, you know, it's not a
fully funded production. But at the same time it's high
stakes because it's it's very personal and it's relying on
people. But I think, I think, I think we

(50:52):
really wanted to approach it from let's try and make this
film in the way that we want to work when we're actors or when
we're that side of the camera. And I've never, you know, I want
to come off a set and think, do you know what?
I just had a really good day at work.
I really enjoyed working with these people.
I feel like when everybody feelslike they can be comfortable and
happy and collaborate, that's when you make your best work.

(51:14):
So really exactly what you're saying that don't be a Dick
thing. It's, it's, it's so hugely
important because it's far too common and far too accepted that
when you go on to a set that actually some people are just,
you know, rude or annoying or obnoxious.
And when those, when those things do happen, it affects the

(51:35):
project. So I think trying to make, make
a project in a different way, basing everything on on just,
hey, let's not lose our blood pressure over this.
Do you know what I mean? Let's all just have a really
good time. And if we make something great
at the end of it, that almost became secondary to will we
enjoy the process, which was kind of how we found all of our

(51:57):
collaborators, everybody that weworked with, we worked with
because we knew that we would wewould enjoy working with them,
that they were professional and that we would value them as
people and that all of their ideas we could, we could
incorporate. Yeah.
Yeah, I know for sure. I think it is really common
sadly that yeah, on high, especially high budget shows

(52:17):
that the pressure was just so that much that there is often
quite a stressful atmosphere. And it can, yeah, it can feed
down. And I think it's important
especially making your own stuffto, you know, set that tone and
make sure it's a nice place to work.
And as I think if we you said the example from the you know
start of you create the character for the whole way.
Yeah, I mean, I think I think a big part of it was just needing

(52:38):
to prove that it's possible to make film and TV without making
people unhappy almost. Because I think it's a really
great privilege for all of us tobe able to to to be in film and
TV. It's a brilliant industry to be
a part of. And I'm very determined that
that is how it should be. And that is how, you know,

(53:00):
that's how people should feel when they're making film and TV
is, is that it's a positive experience and something that
people enjoy. Obviously there's always
stresses and there's always things that are going to be
difficult. But I think that going forward,
I think for film and TV, there'ssome really big changes that
need to happen in terms of attitudes and hierarchies to

(53:21):
just make it a different industry.
I think there's a lot of a lot of preconceptions that we need
to challenge going forward from the level that, you know, we're
all working at in this room is just not accepting that.
Yeah, basically just doing it ina different way I think is
important. If that answers that.
Yeah, Yeah, for sure. I mean, to come back on and we
talked about this in the last, the first part of the final, but

(53:43):
about how the climate isn't quite there.
To me, you know, people are having to sort of do their own
thing more and the whole concept, there's a thing as well
about being DIY and stuff. Do you think that the industry
would be being in a healthier place, you both would have
started making your own thing inthe same way?
Like what blade and board? Do you think because of the
circumstances, it's forced you to have to be really, like, DIY

(54:03):
and make stuff and such as Houston?
Like, yeah. So we the first project we ever
did together actually was Haley's grad film and we have to
pitch them to our lecturers. And Haley pitched her film,
which was to black Widows, essentially murdering this poor

(54:24):
man. And then these grave robbers dig
them up. And then it's this incredible
Manor house that we're shooting this out.
And of course, it's the 18th century.
And our tutors went good luck with that.
Sure. But the genius of how Haley
writes is she writes what she knows she has available.
So she happens to work at Mount Stuart, which is a Manor house
in Rossi. And they were like, yeah, let's

(54:47):
shoot here. And there we use the island army
and that was how we got things made.
So every time it was, well, we're going to get a coffin.
It's like, well, I know a guy, which is a weird thing to say,
but true. You know, how are you going to
dig up a grave? Oh, well, you know, we're going
to use force perspective or how are you going to do this or do

(55:07):
that? And it was just about problem
solving. And we had no budget on that.
And we had, you know, five person crew and it was a very
ambitious shoot, but it was problem solving.
And that's what DIY is. It's problem solving.
Any, any level of industry is problem solving.
You're going to get to the highest level and they're going
to be like, well, that camera just broke.
What do we do? You have to problem solve.

(55:31):
And that whether or not the industry was in a good place or
not, Haley and I come from that overthinking anxiety brain where
we have 100 different plans for one thing, like going to go to
go get some coffee and like, what if this happens?
We have all those backup plans in place.
So I think even if the industry wasn't a good place, this still,
we still would have done this because to find another person,

(55:55):
that's like, how do we make thatwork?
Not well, we can't because of this problem.
You know what I mean? Like you don't look at it from a
negative point of view. You're not looking at it like we
don't have any money. Well, even if you have money,
well, we can't get that location.
There's always going to be problems no matter what level of
funding that you're at. So if you come at it from a
place of like DIY, like let's make this work, how do we figure

(56:17):
this out? Whether you have money or not,
you're going to be able to figure out a way to make this
this thing happen. So I mean, yes, it would be
great if the industry wouldn't have fund things more and take
chances on on people telling different stories.
But you can't let that stop you.You have to be able to figure
out something because that is being creative as figuring out

(56:38):
how to make something work. Yeah.
Do you have anything? I mean, yeah, honestly, just.
The topic. Yeah, just basically what Jamie
has said, honestly, it's just been so DIY.
You really do get used to being scrappy and solving problems as
creatively as you possibly can. But as she said, that's kind of

(57:00):
the way that we've done things and we will continue to do
things is that Jamie always tells me, don't restrict
yourself in your first draft. Just go for it.
And then we'll figure it out later.
And that's always how we do it. And we're right in the middle of
that at the moment. And let me tell you, it's not
fun, but you know, it's, it's definitely worth it because in
the end, you figure out really cool ways to do things that you
never would have even thought possible.

(57:21):
Or, you know, leaning on your tribe and the amazing people
that you work with, they can come up with some incredible
ideas that just really add to the project.
You can do so much on so little.So it really is.
It's just about getting creativeand stepping back and figuring
out how to work it out, making it happen one way or another.
Yeah. And just to expand on that and

(57:41):
I'll open this up to tell as well, but have you found any
strategies that have like helpedyou get things made?
Like anything you managed to do that especially in searchable,
but you said like for example, you managed to get a coffin or
even on your network, there's any other strategies for people
watching or people listing on this episode goes out that might
be useful? Yeah, we're very big believers

(58:01):
of it's a, it's a kind of familyaffair, family, friends, get
everybody involved. We definitely lean on our like
community a lot. I'm from the Isle of Bute, so we
have a very kind of tight community back there.
And we do shoot a lot of stuff on the price of a boat ticket
really. And we just, we rely on Jimmy
calls at the Island Army. You just ask around, ask for
favours. The worst they can say is no.

(58:22):
And so I literally, I did know aguy with a coffin.
He's an undertaker and we can, you know, it's fine.
You know, you just pull on your contacts like that and you never
know what you can make possible as a result of that.
So, yeah. Have you got anything, Dad?
Yeah, I mean more or less just parroting what you said, but I
think it really is a case of just what what I found.

(58:42):
So what I found so touching about making my my short R short
was just how willing people wereto help.
Similar to what Valerie said in the previous part is just how
willing people are to help you and how much people do want to
help you just because they believe in you or they believe
in your idea. And that was perhaps the most

(59:05):
genuinely moving part about making the film is is I started
out with kind of no idea about how it was even going to work.
It kind of felt like, you know, when people trade from like a
paper clip up to a car, it kind of felt like that kind of felt
like what the journey was. And at the start of that
journey, I didn't want to ask people.

(59:26):
I didn't want to ask people. You want to think, well, how can
I do this for myself? Because nobody's going to want
to, you know, I can't offer you money.
You think about it in such like a transactional way.
And then actually once, once we I started talking to people and,
and bringing people on board, just how willing people were to
offer help was absolutely what made the film happen.

(59:48):
And yeah, I'm immensely gratefulfor that.
You know, whether it's the, the cast or the crew or the space,
the space that we're in just nowwe we shot in this space.
And I think having access to somewhere where you can make a
film and where you can do fittings and you know, where
you, where people can work comfortably really benefited us.

(01:00:11):
Um, so absolutely just mirroringwhat you said, I think asking
people, because people for the most part said yes.
I mean, I think we, for the mostpart, probably 80% of the people
we asked said, yeah, sure, we'llhelp.
And if they couldn't help, they passed us 5 names of other
people that could do the same job or offer the same thing, you
know, and that we wouldn't have been able to make it without

(01:00:33):
that. And, and I think that's why
organisations just to just to plug in friends, I think they do
such a brilliant job because location was the one thing that
we had such a hard time with wasfinding a physical space to work
in. And that almost blew the project
out the waters. We had everybody ready to go.
We had, you know, we were, we were fully tooled up, but we

(01:00:53):
just couldn't physically find somewhere to work.
So being able to access this space was something that, yeah,
really helped us make the film to a level of quality that we
wouldn't have been able to achieve otherwise, basically.
Let's do it now. Yeah.
I mean, it was, it was, it was unbelievably, I mean, it was, it

(01:01:13):
was so unbelievably brilliant tohave a space that that just has
room for people because we'd spent a lot of time trying to
scout, locate that the film is set in AGP surgery.
And I'd said it, I'd said it in one room because I thought this
is going to be really smart. I just need one room, like 1
little room. I'm sure that'll be easy to
find. And, and that ended up being the

(01:01:36):
hardest part of the whole thing was just finding a space, which
is like you were saying, you know, use what you know.
And unfortunately I don't, you know, I don't, I had, no, I
don't work in AGP surgery, unfortunately.
So I didn't know where to start.And we looked everywhere.
We really spoke to a lot of people.
We spoke to places that were offering us a room for like, you

(01:01:57):
know, they're wanting £300 a dayfor a small space.
And we were like, well, sure, wecan't do that.
So having this space was brilliant for us because it
meant that we had somewhere to do.
We did our costume fittings here.
We did. We had production meetings.
It meant that our crew could come in and pre light stuff the
day before. Like all of that was so
invaluable. You know, it meant that we were

(01:02:19):
able to operate a much more efficient level than we would
have been if we were, you know, working in in a space that was
less generous. Yeah.
It's brilliant. And again, yeah, attestment and
friends, it's a great new space to 1/3 pub broadcast then.
And you know, so and it's reallyimportant to have.
And I think what's interesting is all 5 on the panel.

(01:02:42):
I've got the numbers right here.There's 5E.
I've always, always said that like a big strategy for again,
ND projects or DIY projects madeis having a network and been
able to ask for things and be able to make things happen.
So whether you're good at doing that yourself or you someone on
your team's good at doing that, I think it's an essential, but
you have to ask for things and persuade people to work with you

(01:03:03):
and help you. Yeah, well, absolutely, yeah.
And yeah. And that's exactly it.
I mean, just sort of as an example for for the short that
we made. So even our in terms of kit, kit
was a hard thing to to to arrange, but it was very much a
case of, you know, it was it's trusting someone else to, to
know who to ask or how to approach that.

(01:03:24):
So I DP knew how he had a cameraor he had access to a sound guy
who could offer us this and that.
And it really was just a yeah. About making something through a
collective effort of trusting people to, to Yeah.
To help you, I suppose, yeah. So I'm just, I'm just giving and
the time. So I've got, I've got one more
question for you guys and if yougave them back on and we'll
we'll have a final question and get somebody in security.

(01:03:46):
But how is that the last question from Phoebe on stage
now is just like how, how are you guys keeping going and quite
tough industry at the moment, what are you expect?
Oh gosh, yeah. It's about trying to be
optimistic, trying to find an optimistic answer honestly.
Yeah, you just keep plodding on.Honestly, just we've been having
a lot of rejections at the moment and just, you know, and

(01:04:08):
the kind of pre production hell and it does feel a lot like you
get stuck and you kind of can't go any further.
You're trying to constantly problem solve as you're saying
and look for other routes to to make it happen.
You can't just give up at the first hurdle.
So you know, we've kind of gone down some different funding
routes at the moment and lookinginto kind of things that we

(01:04:29):
haven't, you know, we haven't tried before, like sponsorships
and investors, things like that.So hoping to get some traction
on our current project at some point.
But yeah, that's, that's kind ofwhat we're doing at the moment.
Just we just keep going. You just keep pushing and
looking at other ways to do things and that's it really.
I mean, I don't think I can be much more inspiring than that,

(01:04:52):
unfortunately. I think just remembering that we
do this because we love to do it.
And that is Haley and I recalibrate sometimes where we,
you know, we both have full timejobs outside of this and we have
another full time job as, you know, as a company and trying to
be a filmmaker and you know, freelance is a hustle and you do

(01:05:14):
get stuck and you, you know, when you don't do something
creative for a while, it feels like your soul is dying.
You're not, you're not. You have to be able to make it
in this industry. It has to be as essential as
breathing, like making something, being creative in
whatever medium that is. It has to be essential to you,
like food and water and and air.And when you're not doing that
because you're trying to find funding or you're trying to do

(01:05:36):
all the paperwork and do all those things, it just you start
to kind of shrivel up. And so Haley and I will
recalibrate like, why am I so depressed?
And like, oh, I haven't touched a camera in three months.
That's why. Let's go run to Rossi and shoot
something on the beach there. And then you're like, oh, right,
that's why I spend 8 hours at work and then 8 hours at home

(01:05:57):
and then dream about, Oh my God,did I send that funding
application in And try and try and try and try is because you
get, when you finally hit it, you get that 5 minutes of the
perfect shot and that helps you keep going.
So like, just remember, it's fun.
Like it's stressful. But we're doing this because we
love it. You're creative because you
enjoy it. And I think that helps get to

(01:06:19):
you through those times where you're in a funding crisis,
where nobody wants to get new work, where, you know, we're at,
where we're at. Like, oh, I, I I'm doing this
because I want to. No one's holding a gun to your
head because when you starts to be work, it's easy to like, I
don't know, I'll go find anotherjob that actually pays my rent

(01:06:39):
and I don't have to worry about it so much.
So, yeah, I think just remembering that it's enjoyable,
it's good. It's fun thing doesn't seem like
that sometimes. I'm sorry, but it is.
Yeah, I think, yeah, yeah, I think for me it was about, I
guess it's about teaching my teaching myself about what the
motivation is. So reminding yourself exactly

(01:07:00):
like you said that it's about what what parts of it you enjoy.
And I think not not giving yourself like this huge, I don't
know, goal of like, oh, damn, I need to make this thing or I
need to do this thing. For me, it was very much about
diluting it down to the smallestpossible thing.

(01:07:20):
Just to use the paper clip analogy again, because that was
what really helped me was that it is about starting with the
smallest possible thing rather than kind of what I was doing
for months and months and monthsand months was sitting at my
table, sitting my desk and be like, I need to make this short
film. I want to make this short film,
but I need to do this, this, this, this, this isn't this and
this and just getting so overwhelmed that that that it

(01:07:43):
wouldn't happen. And I was definitely stuck in
that period for like, it was stuck in that place for like a
year. And it wasn't until I started
diluting it down to, well, OK, fundamentally, what do I need to
do? What do I want to do first?
It's this idea. I want to write this story and
then let it kind of roll from there.
And I think that's how you get through.

(01:08:04):
That's how you, that's how you get through this part of the
industry. That's how you enjoy it, is by
focusing on little moments or little things rather than the
bigger picture. I think focusing on something
small, taking that and doing that, it's the lowest possible
bar rather than, you know, trying to run a marathon.
It's like, hey, let's see if we can walk up the stairs 1st and

(01:08:25):
then eventually it does snowballand I'm like, oh, now I've got a
short film that's crazy. Like, I didn't like if I sat at
my desk being like, I want to make a short film, it never
would have happened. But letting it become that
snowball effect is the is the only way that it managed to
happen. Yeah, yeah.
For sure, guys, thank you for your nice positive close it.
We're going to get Michael at valley back on stage.

(01:08:46):
So I'll squeeze that cool. So we're going to do some well,
this mod is can in a SEC, but I suppose I'll go around everyone
again and somebody do on the podcast and every episode is we
have closing advice. So I just all of you want to
share what you're closing advicewould be to anyone that wants to
work at the crew of industries in any capacity really.
So don't I think just spoke about you.
Oh no, yeah, I know, I know. I was sort of panicking there.

(01:09:07):
Oh no, I'm I'm first advice. I think I I really do like the
idea of the lowest, the lowest possible, the lowest possible
bar is is aimed for that man. Like that.
I'm kind of doing that with justday-to-day life.
Like honestly, like you get out of bed, you shower.
That's great, man. Like you did a great job and I
think I think that works for creativity.
Like it you don't need to shame yourself into achieving the

(01:09:32):
biggest possible thing. Like whatever you do as a
victory. And no matter you know, it's
it's not about comparisons. So what's so what's my advice
within that, I guess lowest possible bar and stop comparing.
I think comparison is the the thief of all joy and creativity.
So yeah, love yourself. Oh, I've got I've got some

(01:09:54):
advice that I keep giving to people and I think I keep giving
to myself. I think I've been a real
negative Nancy today and I'm usually a positive Patricia, but
it's just a weird time. But, and this advice sounds
negative, but it's not meant to and the, OR it's just a mantra
and it's that most art is bad. And I, and I tell myself that to

(01:10:18):
go like, because I, because I think we put these massive like
expectations on ourselves to make like stuff that is amazing
first thing. But most art is bad.
Like everything, like 90% of films you've watched will be
absolutely awful and you've forgotten about what they were

(01:10:39):
about and everything like that. And like the ones that you
remember are the ones that you remember and you remember them
for, for a reason. And they might not actually be
the technically best films are the most amazingly written films
or the most amazingly acted films.
But you you respond to them for a reason.
And the stuff that you make, other people will respond to

(01:11:00):
that stuff for those reasons. I'm making sense to myself
again, but maybe not to everybody else.
But yeah, just remember that most art is bad.
We're not saving babies. We're not doing open heart
surgery. Like, it's OK if it's like only
80% there when you put it out. And maybe that 20% will be like
a lot of fun and people will enjoy it.

(01:11:23):
Yeah. Just to kind of follow on from
that, honestly, just it can be so easy to get bogged down by
how overwhelmingly negative it seems and forget about the
little wins along the way, as we've been talking about.
But just give yourself a pat in the back for trying.
Don't be too hard on yourself ifyou feel like, you know, a
really huge part of this industry is like the hustle

(01:11:44):
culture and pushing and pushing to get things done, but you
know, you're only on your own kind of schedule basically.
And just, it's OK to slow down and prioritise your mental
health really and just remember why you love doing it.
That's the thing that we keep coming back to that we're
definitely very guilty of at themoment.
And, you know, do things that make you feel creatively
fulfilled if you can, even though time is scarce, you know,

(01:12:07):
go to a screening, just listen to music, do some journaling,
something that keeps you creative.
That doesn't need to be anythingthat has a result.
Basically, that's what I would say, just to keep being
creative. I think the best advice I got,
and I continue to use it is frommy cinematography teacher, John

(01:12:28):
Rhodes, who is just a legend. Failure is essential to to
learning. So like I'm a perfectionist and
I constantly am reading and checking and how do we do this
and how to do that and researching.
And then if you don't get the worst thing is not getting the
shot in your head in on the monitor and then you feel like

(01:12:49):
you fail and then it's quicksand.
And then it's just like, that's the worst day ever.
And you're on the floor having atantrum.
But then the next time you do it, you're like, oh, that's why
that didn't work. That's the way to do it.
So you have to to stumble, you have to fall to figure out like
why? And then you go, oh, OK, I
failed because of this. Well, now I know for the next

(01:13:10):
time this is going to be even better.
And you know, our monologue, letme shop.
First year. I never ever want that to see
the light of day. Wow, I'm so sorry, Molly.
But now we have look behind looking behind us and seeing
these films that we've done. You're like, oh, I remembered

(01:13:31):
why that didn't work that time. And then you continue to go.
So I think allowing yourself thegrace to like, just fuck it up
really bad. Like just face plant on that
stage and then pick yourself up and go, OK, why did that happen?
And then the next time you nail it and then you're 55

(01:13:53):
experiences ahead and you go, oh, this wasn't as hard as I
thought it was going to be. So.
Yeah, just just let yourself fail sometimes because that's
where the best things happen, I think.
I'm going to say use your community.
I think none of my projects would be alive or, you know,

(01:14:14):
realised if like the people who tell me that they don't like
talking to people or anything. I'm like, why are you in this
medium? Like this is cooperative work
all the time. Like I'm, I'm in this because I
kind of enjoy in a masochistic way working with people.
So like the, the community is there for a reason.
And I feel like if you use them,and obviously I don't mean it in

(01:14:35):
the bad way, I mean it in the good way, like collaboration.
I don't think any of my projectswould exist if it weren't for
other people. And before I did a key name
because I. The podcast that I've done for
nearly five years like it wouldn't exist anybody that
community and like there is suchan appetite for conversations

(01:14:56):
that I've had today and thank you everyone for coming to watch
and you know, thank you to Kat and I'm friends as well for for
Austin and for all the work we're doing.
But we'll do a quick QA before Iwrap things up.
Does anyone have any questions for a very talented battles?
Anyone go anything? I'm like super curious about
people's thoughts on AI. Obviously that you there's

(01:15:19):
awkward thread for potential tool, they're not positive.
So I I get that it can be a toolfor certain things.
Although my story about AI, I was using ChatGPT probably about

(01:15:39):
18 months ago, like when it first started.
I'm shit at budgets. Like I'm not a numbers person at
all and I used it to make a budget for me for something.
And I'm obviously so shit at budgets that I'd put in whatever
wrong and went £400 over budget on a project because of ChatGPT.

(01:16:01):
So I'll never use it again for that reason.
But I am, I have concerns about it like like there's this study
that's come out recently that it's like it is actively
affecting people's like cognitive function.
And I think that's massively worrying.
And I think we've already given too much of ourselves to like

(01:16:24):
algorithms and computers and stuff like that.
So I'm very, very worried about it.
I'm also like like that that that thing where met like Mark
Zuckerberg's company have like stolen loads of people's work to
to feed their AI. Like some of my work is in that

(01:16:44):
and I feel like gross about it. Like, how dare you?
Like do like because yeah, it's just really weird and sticky and
gross and I don't like it. And I'm worried about it might,
might be because, because I do think it can be like a positive
tool in some ways. Like, like if it's going to cure
cancer, like more AI. But like, I don't like that.

(01:17:07):
It's like writing fucking poems and stuff.
It's like it actually, I think it's gross and weird.
Yeah. So I just maybe that's my inner
elegant way. I think it's gross and weird and
it really worries me, but it's not going away.
So I think probably need to get used to it.
Is, is, is what I think about AIand figure out ways.

(01:17:31):
The, the thing that massively worries me is that I, I think
our current government are seemingly really keen just to
sell our just to let the people make AAI use our work with no
recuperation for us. And I think that's weird for a
government of landlords and business people.

(01:17:51):
That's weird because I don't know, I don't like it makes me
feel uncomfortable. Anyone else?
Does anyone love AI as? As a camera person, camera
operating is instinctual. Like, yes, you, you shot listed
and you say I'm going to do a close up and do this and do

(01:18:12):
that, but you have to be able toempathise with the person that
you're filming with the actor, with the situation, with the
landscape or whatever. And it's instinct that moves.
You know, you can't teach. Well, Terminator is honest that
you can, but you shouldn't teachcomputers and inanimate objects

(01:18:36):
how to feel because they're never you're it's never going to
replace human connection and human emotion.
I mean, like some of the best shots we've gotten was just your
body starts to shift and you're like, Nope, you're just going to
follow that and that goes there.And that just comes from human
experience. And AI can be helpful in previs

(01:18:57):
and storyboarding if you can't draw, which I can't, and little
things like that. But when it comes to actually
making, being creative and making something, nothing can
replace the human experience. It just can't.
And I think making sure that that line is drawn very, very
strongly and boldly and and those big fat sharpies that it's
a good tool, but it doesn't, it shouldn't replace people's

(01:19:21):
brains because it is icky and gross.
And I agree with that. Question to ask because I
deliberately didn't put it in today's sort of question running
order because I've talked about a lot on the podcast.
Reason is obviously as a buzz word, but I think it's because
it's going to change a lot aboutthings in the future.
Like, it's here now. It's, you know, I think it's

(01:19:41):
moving fast. But yeah.
And there's useful things like I'm disliked against the best
spell check I've ever had. But at the same time, I found
myself, as you were saying, likeit.
I think I'm conscious I'm probably using it too much now
to do certain things because it it's easy to display around
which right, that's for me or it'll not, you know, I always
edit it. But it's, you know, it's easier
than making mistakes. And sometimes mistakes are good,

(01:20:02):
especially we're talking about DIY felt.
You learn from mistakes. If we're in a world where
everything on social media is perfect, then it's a bit boring.
Like the thing that makes this kind of human that's an
interesting, especially creatively to have imperfection.
So. Yeah, I could speak about.
It's scary. Well, perfection is unrealistic.
I mean, that's it's unrealistic.No one is perfect all the time,

(01:20:23):
ever. Even half the time, even some of
the time, nobody's perfect. And already social media, what
people present isn't what actualreal life is.
And that causes a lot of issues with, you know, generations
below and and our generation generations above as you're
seeing this perfect life, this like glossed over computer
generated in authenticity. And then you yardstick, well,

(01:20:50):
why am I not there? Why is that not good enough?
Why is my art not good enough with my films never going to be
that great. My writing is never going to be
that great. I'm just not going to do it
anymore. And then you have generations
that no longer create art. And I think that is the worst
travesty. That is the worst thing that
could happen is that we're not continuing to make art and music
and all those things that like make life worth going through

(01:21:13):
this rat race well for. Sure.
Does anyone else have any other questions for the back?
I'm saying what when you're burnout creative thing, what
helps you connect to that part yourself?
Again, especially when the industry is so much revolves
around projection. I go watch my favourite movies,
like, oh that's right. Oh gosh, so there's two and

(01:21:40):
they're very different, but they're they're the same.
The Princess Bride. Yes, I love the positive
response. Always genius.
And The Dark Knight and they're very different, but they're very
similar. I mean, it's a story about love
and about, you know, right and wrong and swashbuckling and, you
know, like vigilantes and, you know, all these amazing things

(01:22:02):
and epic. See.
I. Wrote a dissertation about how
Joe Wright and Guy Ritchie were similar.
And I will follow on that sword all the time because they are.
But you go back to watching it because you're like, oh, that's
what got me interested in filmmaking.
Like, that's what got me excitedabout like, making these things
and seeing people get excited. Like saying Princess Bride and

(01:22:25):
having everybody like, oh, yeah,yeah, that's right.
That grumble of of appreciation.Oh, right.
OK, so I can do that. Like I'm going to, I want to
chase that feeling. I want to go back to that and
go, I'm going to do a sword fight, get close in a coffin for
the perfect shot. And then you do it.
Yeah, actually happened. But that's how you not even the

(01:22:48):
worst thing she's done to me. But I think that is like going
back to what we keep saying, going back to what gets you
excited. Like if you love to read, I love
to read or listen to music or watch films or watch TV.
Not as watching it critically, like not watching and going,
well, why did they do that and tearing it apart?
Just taking off that brain and watching it and getting excited.
Like that kid thing of, Oh no, it's a sword fight.

(01:23:11):
And now they're going to do this.
And it's, you know, the pit of despair.
That is genius filmmaking, I think.
I'm sorry. That's exciting.
And this is going to sound especially wanky, but I've been
doing the the artist's way, which again, it's this whole
whole thing. But there is this idea of like,
you know, an artist date and whatever, but it's about taking

(01:23:34):
yourself to do an activity for the sake of the activity, just
to go and do the thing. And I accidentally, I think for
a couple of months, I've booked myself into a lot of like acting
workshops and stuff with no aim.Like you rock up, you do a
scene, you do a thing and then you leave.
And then like, I've met a lot ofgreat people.
I've met any sort of thing that gives you joy.
It doesn't have to be even with the with the thing that you

(01:23:58):
like, but I've found that doing acti stuff that has nothing, no
stakes other than doing the thing has actually been really
healing. Because then I'll leave and I'm
like, Oh my God, I did somethingreally productive, but there it
productive for me, like for my soul, not productive in the
sense of goals. But then I feel like I've
achieved something of the thing that I like for me.

(01:24:19):
And and I didn't believe at first I was like, this is
ridiculous. Like, what do you mean taking
myself out on a week, like on a weekly date to do a thing is
going to make me feel better. And then when I don't do it now
I'm like, like you feel like you're letting yourself, not
letting yourself down. But there's a bit of you that
like needs that entertainment needs that, I don't know,

(01:24:40):
consumption of something just for the sake of it.
And that's why I like you can dowhatever you like actually.
Yeah, I don't know. I think we're too goal oriented.
Yeah, word. Yeah, I mean, it's quite similar
to what to what's been said before, but I think for me it's
when it when that creative burnout hits, it's about just

(01:25:02):
totally pulling yourself out of that world for me anyway.
And just shame is such a terrible motivator, which
somebody said to me recently that really sticks in my head.
And I think when when I'm creatively burnt out, I'm like,
oh man, I need to, no, I need togo and talk to this person or I
need to write this thing. And it becomes a chore and it
becomes something that really weighs you down.
And you do start to I, I start to shame myself and, and think,

(01:25:27):
you know, well, I need to be writing something.
I need to be working on my acting craft or like, and
actually just the best thing that I I found is just a fully
just pull myself out of it and just, you know, go, go and do
something nice, like you said, and watch silly movies and see
friends and go to a wedding and remind myself of all the other
parts of my life that are so important, that are arguably

(01:25:51):
more important than than the work that you do.
And then when you're ready, you come back to it.
And I think that's the best thing that that I found again
with the short was when I was getting really, really burnt
out. So I just stopped.
I just really just stopped working on it for a bit.
And we'll just be like, great, cool, I'm going to come back to
this when I'm ready, and I'm going to go off and see friends

(01:26:13):
or do something or sit on the sofa and eat food and just live
a totally removed life from thisfilm.
And then I just felt naturally, I was ready to come back in
like, a couple of weeks, and I was more reinvigorated.
So really parroting what's already been said, but just
taking a nice big old break and not shaming yourself.

(01:26:34):
Yeah. Yeah.
The burnout thing's interesting.You spoke about Burnett quite a
lot on it, but I think it was aninteresting about boy up in The
Cave industries, as you're always as you talk about very
goal and take you always like I need to do this thing and you
don't enjoy it. So for example, we've even doing

(01:26:54):
this show today, like I'm feeling pretty bad.
I'm really tired and I'm really busy.
Mom. I'm not asking him to feel
sorry, but is that way we like I'm tired, like that's fine, but
it's also trying to remind myself like this is some kind of
you know, I like doing events like that and you know, four
years ago, if I'd said we did anevent like this, that's all
maybe happy and then we do it. You're like, well, he said that,

(01:27:15):
you know, I mean, so it's and he's trying to have that
perspective. I mean, about wonderful panel
here, like it's trying to reallybe grateful for the things and
try and be present for them. It's really hard because you're
always looking for the next thing and yeah, it's tricky,
yeah. Does anyone have?
Any, I think that thing about taking yourself out of it is
really important, like because if you have a normal job, you

(01:27:37):
get like annual leave. But if you're a freelancer, like
like engaging with Phil because you also like you'll watch films
on your days off and you watch TV.
So like taking yourself out of it is really important.
Like for me, like I watch a lot of like competition reality
shows because that I don't work in that.

(01:27:57):
And he can just like I can enjoyProject Runway, I can enjoy drag
race. I know kind of what's going to
happen every episode. And, and like, so just like
having things away from the thing you do is really
important. I also like on the theme of like
watching stuff that you really like that sort of fills your cup

(01:28:17):
as well. Like I'm making a podcast at the
minute with my partner. It's about 80s and 90s fantasy
films. I don't make fantasy, so I feel
like it's slightly removed from what I do anyway.
But every single one of those films, when we like talk about
the making of it, every single one of them, they'll be like,
and the director had to remortgage his house and then

(01:28:39):
like everybody got fired one dayand then got rehired the next
day. And like, sort of what I'm
realising is that anything that's any good sort of always
has a moment where it's all going to fall apart.
And, and I've realised that's part of my process as well.
Like, like, like there's a part in every project that I learned
every single time where the, theeverything falls to bits and it

(01:29:01):
in in and I'm like, I don't knowwhat this is.
I don't know why I started doingit.
I hate it. I don't want to be doing it.
And then I start putting it backtogether again.
It's like, oh, actually this is quite good and I'm actually
happy again. So I think you have to sort of
go the only way out is through, which is another way, another
reason why I'm slightly dubious of of AI and stuff like that,

(01:29:22):
because I think that is what theprocess is.
The point actually is my, my, mykey bit of learning.
Yes, yes, exactly. Yeah, I'm.
Going to tweak so I'm going to be fully happy with it.
Yes, yes, that's what I think.

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EP. 179 - 'Brave New Work: How Filmmakers Are Adapting in a Difficult Climate' (Live at _And Friends)

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}EP. 179 - 'Brave New Work: How Filmmakers Are Adapting in a Difficult Climate' (Live at _And Friends)