Art & Fear: The Book. Part 2

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Don't look back, something might be gaining on
you.
That is a quote from SatchelPaige, who is the first
African-American pitcher to playprofessional baseball, who is
the first African-Americanpitcher to play professional
baseball, and that is from a1953 article when he was
interviewed about staying youngand focused and moving on with
his career and what hisambitions were.

(00:34):
And if you kind of look at thatquote, let me take my old man
reader glasses off.
If you look at that quote incontext, he's really kind of
saying look ahead, live fortoday, for everything, for what
it's worth.
Don't wallow in your regretsabout things which have passed
and can't be reversed.
Stop obsessing and beingpreoccupied with the past.

(00:56):
It kind of suggests focusingyour efforts on the presence and
really moving forward.
And so, as we jump into parttwo of art and fear, we are
going to be really moving intosome of those areas the inner
critics, success and failure,the audience, how, when people
criticize your work, the dangersof Instagram and not getting

(01:17):
enough likes, or people sayingthings on there, like all those
things that kind of drive in ourheads and really cause us to
lose focus in where we're going.
And I want to kind of start inour heads and really cause us to
lose focus in where we're going.
And I want to kind of startjust by reading the beginning
here on page 37.

Speaker 2 (01:30):
Can we talk about that quote real quick?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, let'sjump in.
It's funny because as you readthat and shared your brief
interpretation, I went right toare we running towards something
or running away from something?

Speaker 1 (01:46):
Well, and in that article from 1953, they actually
kind of go down and talk aboutthat a little bit more and he
gives a little more context intophysically running away from
things that may be chasing.
Right, yeah, right.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
But it's interesting because it speaks to, just like,
the core sort of fundamentaldesire behind you know, whatever
might be motivating us right,like are we running towards?
Are we being pulled by you know, something that we're running
towards?
Are we being pushed bysomething that we're running
from?
Probably both.
Probably In varying you knowratios at different times, but

(02:23):
that's interesting, varying youknow ratios at different times.
But that's interesting One ofthe things I've thought about a
lot in reflecting on that quotespecifically, because I think
that most of those motivations,or most motivation in general, I
would say, comes from, you know, one of those two places.
And I would say that anymotivation, any fuel, is useful
when it's properly challenged,and we've talked a lot about
this in the podcast already interms of the value of running

(02:45):
from things but using that tofuel what we're running towards.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (02:49):
I just wanted to throw that in the mix before you
move forward.

Speaker 1 (02:52):
Yeah, and as an artist I mean, we're going to
face all kinds of externalexpectations, external voices,
external challenges, things thatkind of infiltrate our creative
process, process.
And so learning how to run fromthose things and stay focused,
running towards your goal orwhere you want to go, is vital,
is really vital.
And so let's jump in here andread these first two paragraphs,

(03:14):
where Bayliss and Orlin say artis often made an abandonment,
emerging unbidden in moments ofselfless rapport with the
materials and ideas we careabout.
In such moments we leave nospace for others.
That's probably as it should be.
Art, after all, rarely emergesfrom committees.
But while others' reactionsneed not cause problems for the

(03:37):
artists, they usually do.
The problems arise when weconfuse others' priorities with
our own.
We carry real and imaginedcritics with us, constantly A
veritable babble of voices, someremembered, some prophesied,
and each eager to comment on allthat we do.
Yes, yes, yes and yes.

Speaker 2 (04:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, committee, art by committee.

Speaker 1 (04:05):
I mean and here's a great part, Before you jump in,
I want to read this part whenthe work goes well, we keep such
inner distractions at bay, butin times of uncertainty or need
we start to listen?
We abdicate artisticdecision-making to others, when
we fear that the work itselfwill not bring us the
understanding, acceptance andapproval that we seek.

Speaker 2 (04:27):
So, in other words, when our own voice isn't strong
enough, the absence of thatcauses us to seek out the voices
of others and give them waymore juice, way more influence
than they would otherwise have.

Speaker 1 (04:41):
Yeah, I mean, is anybody guilty of that out there
If you're watching the video?
My hand just raised?

Speaker 2 (04:47):
Absolutely guilty of that, and since my hand's up,
I'd like to speak on my bloodfor my work today.
So yeah, this is a multicoloredstitching.
I feel like, listen, if I'm notgoing to lose a finger, the
best thing I can do is just wrapit in a ton of tape and then
I'll figure out how bad it istonight.

Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yeah, yeah, you'll figure it out later.

Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah, no.
So you know, with that it'sfunny cause I'm.
I was at a conversation thismorning with a writer who's
writing a piece about me.
We were doing an interview andand she asked me the essence of
the question was how much areyou thinking about the audience
when you're making the work?
And my answer was as little aspossible.

(05:30):
Right, and we've talked aboutthis a lot before and we'll, for
sure, at other times.
But the fewer people that arein the room the better.
No doubt about it.

Speaker 1 (05:40):
Absolutely.
And I think that's a very hardthing today with technology,
because it's so easy for us togo grab the phone while we're
working.
And you know, some of us put upa story of our process while
we're working or kind of putsomething up, and that's fine
those things.
But the problem, the danger, is, all of a sudden we start kind
of scrolling through and lookingat things and then all of a
sudden we're seeing what may betrendy, what may be happening,

(06:03):
what other people are doing, andthen those voices start to get
into our head and those are ourvoices in that moment.
It's not other people's voices.
We're seeking approval for somereason, without anybody seeing
what we're doing.
And it starts to become thisfield of voices that are saying
well, maybe you should do it alittle bit more like her, maybe
you should do things a littlebit more like him.

(06:24):
Maybe you should do it a littlebit more like her.
Maybe you should do things alittle bit more like him, maybe
you should try these things, dothese things and instead of
really finding those things inyour process and where you're
going by researching andstudying art, you're allowing
the trend or the person who hasmore likes to influence where
the direction of your work isgoing.

Speaker 2 (06:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah, I'm going to keep reading because I want to
dive in a little more into thispart.
This is on page 39.
In following the path of yourheart, the chances are that your
work will not be understandableto others, at least not
immediately and not to a wideaudience.
No wonder artists so oftenharbor a depressing sense that
their work is going downhill Atany given moment.

(07:02):
The older work is always moreattractive and better understood
.
This is not good.
After all, wanting to beunderstood is a basic need, an
affirmation of the humanity youshare with everyone around you.
The risk is fearsome.
In making your real work, youhand the audience the power to
deny the understanding you seek.
You hand them the power to sayyou're not like us, you're weird

(07:26):
or you're crazy Interesting.

Speaker 2 (07:31):
I mean, I think that assumes that the power is going
to be handed over at some pointand that the only thing that we
can really control or influenceis when that happens.
Yes, preferably after the workis done, after it's been put out
into the world and our role inthe process is complete.

(07:52):
It's over, right, it's over,yeah.
Yeah.
There's something from thepreceding page that I had
highlighted as well.
This is at the bottom of page38, under the section called
understanding.
We all learn at a young age theperils of being perceived as
different.
We learn that others have thepower to single out, to ridicule
, to turn away from and to markthe one who is different.

(08:15):
Choose your own memories, butone way or another, we've all
felt the hurt of a little boywho wanted to write poems or the
little girl who tried to jointhe Sandlot ball team.
I just think about, like, howthese wounds, this programming,
I mean, it goes deep, it goesback to childhood, it goes back
to our most impressionable ages,and not that we're trying to

(08:39):
psychoanalyze our entire lifearc, but it is worth, I think,
acknowledging that these aren'tthe types of beliefs or
influences that we can justdismiss in a moment.
They're going to be there.
The only question is how muchwe're going to allow them to
affect us while we're in the actof making.

Speaker 1 (09:01):
You know and this all falls into routine that we talk
about all the time like findingyour routine, how you work into
your daily, weekly, monthly,hourly, the times that you have
to really shut out the noisewhile you're in the studio.
What does that need to be?
I have this conversation withartists in my program regularly
where they're like I come intothe studio and I don't even know

(09:23):
where to start and then all ofa sudden I start doubting myself
and I wonder can I even do this?
And then all these things kindof come in.
So I always tell them and we'vetalked about this plenty of
times find a mantra, put a quoteon the wall, find something you
say when you arrive.
You could be like Agnes Martin,where you have to clean that
space before you start, Becauseshe couldn't start with even a

(09:47):
speck of dust on the floor.
It needed to be clean andcompletely empty for her to feel
that spirituality that shewanted to put into her work and
her art, that meditative qualitythat she would really put into
making.
And so find something, figureit out.
Figure out what that is Cause'sthe thing when work is going
well, the noise fades.
When the work is not going well.

(10:09):
The volume turns up and actioncures fear.

Speaker 2 (10:15):
Right, action cures fear.

Speaker 1 (10:16):
Yes, inaction reinforces it I gotta stop
putting my thumbs up when I usemy phone to record yeah, we
don't need any more Thumbs upthe bubbles.
Yeah, I just had a nice bubbleof a thumbs up pop up on the
screen.

Speaker 2 (10:29):
It's not recognizing my obscenely bandaged thumb.
That's funny, sorry, but actioncures fear and inaction
reinforces it.
So if we are walking in thestudio and just sitting and
waiting for that grandinspiration to get us moving,
boy, that's a recipe for a lotof inaction.

(10:49):
Whereas to the Agnes Martinexample, which is a perfect one
most days for me, almost all ofthem start with something, some
sort of menial task, usuallycleaning up the wreckage from
the night before.
Yeah, usually cleaning up thewreckage from the night before
yeah, because I'm always doingjust one more thing before I
close up shop for the night.

(11:10):
But just that action of being,but just movement right In the
studio, doing something to movethings around, and even just the
physical act of just touchingthe material, the tools,
whatever you're using, can besomething that leads to the.
And, before you know it,material, the tools, the you
know, whatever you're using, canbe something that leads to the.
And before you know it, you'rein it.
You know you have to move first.

Speaker 1 (11:29):
Well, we all have different distractions.
The noise is different for allof us, right?
The noise?
isn't for some of us it's thesame, but for most of us there's
something different thatbecomes noise for us.
That may be.
That may be the life outsidethat we're living.
That may be family.
That may be the life outsidethat we're living.
That may be family.
That may be work the job thatwe have to do five days a week
or three days a week, and thenwe try and get into the studio
and we're worn out and we'restressed about work.

(11:51):
That email you know that'scoming, like all those things
can cause this like severedistraction.
I love this quote by AnneLamott, one of my favorite
writers and people on the planet.
She says almost everything willwork again if you unplug it for
a few minutes, including youIncluding you.
And we've talked about in thevery first part of this that

(12:14):
we're the problem.
The fear is coming from us.
It's something that we'recreating.
So sometimes we have to unplugfrom us for a minute, meditate,
be silent, be quiet.
And you know, one of the thingsI took from that is I've
literally unplugged, like fromtech for the last two months, as
much as I can, and I think I'vebeen detoxing.

(12:37):
Honestly, I feel like I've beenin detox.
What it's done to my brain andmy body and things like forcing
myself to leave my phone in theroom in the morning.
So when I read, I'm reading andI'm silent.
I'm keeping my cortisol levelsat bay in the morning.
I'm not spiking them up so thatI'm worn out by midday by
scrolling and scrolling andscrolling and looking.
You know, you and I we'vetalked about this in the last

(12:58):
couple of weeks and it's causedpeaceful mornings and it's
caused peaceful mornings, but Ican tell there's a difference,
that my body is wanting to go,grab my phone and start
scrolling and even little thingslike sharing what I just read
and researching these things.
That's still spiking my cortisollevels to something that
doesn't need to be.
That raised early in themorning.
I need to slowly move into theday and I haven't been on my

(13:23):
phone in the studio.
I've literally kept it at bayand not been checking Instagram
and purposely trying to justfocus on ideas and where the
work's going, because I've hadthis serious apathy over the
summer for being in the studioand it's the heat, it's so hot
in my studio, I'm not able to dowhat I want to do, and so I've
been doing smaller works in myoffice which I don't want to do.

(13:45):
So it's creating this apathy,it's creating noise Instead of
just finding something andmaking.
I'm going well, it's too hot,it's too this, I can't do this.
I can't do what I want to do,I'm not focused.
These things are frustrating me.
So all of a sudden, I have allthis noise and it's caused me a

(14:08):
huge setback.
I feel like since June, when itturned 175 degrees in Texas and
200 degrees in my studio.
So I've had to turn my ownnoise down myself, just like
I've had to unplug from myself alittle bit and kind of take a
look in the mirror and just godude, you need to settle, chill
out, get back focused, startideating which I'm doing and get
back into it.
And this quote by Ralph WaldoEmerson is fantastic because he

(14:31):
says finish every day and bedone with it.
You have done what you could.
Some blunders and absurditiesno doubt crept in.
Forget them as soon as you can.
Tomorrow is a new day.
You shall begin it well andserenely and with too high a
spirit to be cumbered with yourold nonsense.
That spoke to me in my momentreally strongly over the last

(14:53):
few months, because I have beenabsolutely cumbered by my
nonsense.
Yeah, like I've just.
The noise has created a swellof absolute nonsense, but it's
controlled everything I'vewanted to do over the last four
or five months and it's all me,it's nothing else.

Speaker 2 (15:12):
Well, it's just that goes back to that whole idea of
creating before you consume, youknow because and I've done this
poorly many, many days whereit's just for whatever reason, I
get into the phone, you know,before I get into, uh, the
studio, and just what, just whata trap that is.
Yeah, once we start consuming,just just acknowledging that

(15:35):
these, these apps, areintentionally engineered to hold
our attention for as long aspossible and keep us from doing
anything else.
There's a time and a place forit, I suppose, depending upon
what your practice is and howyou want to leverage those tools
, because they do have utilityto them.
But to be intentional aboutwhen we do those things is

(15:56):
absolutely huge, and it does.
It all comes down to theroutine.
I mean, that's a rule that Ihave that I don't always follow,
sure.
Same, absolutely have, which iscreate before you consume.
So if I'm going to get onwhatever Instagram for the day,
it's going to be after I'vegotten a good session in in the

(16:16):
morning and I am ready for abreak, for a little bit of a
reset, but acknowledging thatbreak, you know, for a little
little bit of a reset, butacknowledging that.
And just for me.
I rarely close down my phonemore energized than when I pick
it up Almost never, yeah, sojust treating it as the trap
that it is, which is an energydraining thing, versus something

(16:39):
that is energy giving, is justjust really important.
Just acknowledging it for whatit is a powerful tool, but also
a battery drainer and an energysucker in most cases.

Speaker 1 (16:51):
And we're not making this up.
There are neuroscience studieson this that reveal the cortisol
addiction levels and thingsthat your phone and scrolling
will have, in the same way that,and things that your phone and
scrolling will have in the sameway that drugs and alcohol will
have the same type of things andreactions your body wants, it
needs, it needs more.

(17:11):
Oh, I got to check.
I got to check.
I got to check.
I mean, I think it's hard foreverybody, but with artists,
because we are courting approval, we want approval, I'm sorry.
We're making art because we wantpeople to see it.
Most of us listening are makingart because we want people to
see it.
Most of us, listening, aremaking art because we want it to
be seen.
We're not just making it tomake it.
Yes, we're making art for art'ssake, but the goal, what is the

(17:32):
end goal?
For people to see it, for it tobe hung on a wall, for an
audience to come in and, againstour best thinking, judge it
like it, hate it, dislike it,love it, whatever.
And so, gosh, that courtship ofapproval is so massive for us
as artists, and not seeing thelikes or not seeing people

(17:54):
talking about it, not gettingcomments those things can
absolutely hamper us horribly.

Speaker 2 (18:00):
That actually leads to a great quote that I wanted
to share from page 40, right inthe middle.
What is sometimes needed issimply an insulating period, a
gap of pure time between themaking of your art and the time
when you share it with outsiders.
And I was reflecting on thisquote and remembering, or just
sort of realizing, how myroutine around when I share work

(18:24):
has really changed.
And I rarely share work inprogress anymore.
I might share some process,little videos of just a little
vignette of something I wasdoing, but as far as I remember
earlier on, I would share, Iwould take a decent photograph
of work in know, and again,there's nothing inherently wrong
with that Like, if that worksfor you, then do it.

(18:48):
But what I found was that Ibegan to be influenced by
whatever comments people wouldmake, positive or negative.
You know what I mean.
Mostly just like hey, I likethat part over there, right, and
so then the next time I'mworking on it, all of a sudden
now I'm thinking about howwhoever liked this one portion
and I like them, so I got nowit's like my job to retain this

(19:10):
certain element that they allliked, and all of a sudden we've
invited a whole bunch morevoices in the room that don't
have any place in the creativeprocess and there is a massive
danger of possibly discardingyour highest vision in order to
fit into what the perceivedaudience expects.

(19:34):
Right.

Speaker 1 (19:35):
And so you know, you and I talked about this I think
two weeks ago.
We were talking about somethingon the phone and I said, oh
yeah, I hide all my likes oneverything.
And you said, oh really.
I said yeah.
I said I got to a point in myhead I don't know where it would
come from, because I'm not likethis, but all of a sudden I go,
wow, that painting had 400likes and that one had 10.
What's wrong with it?

(19:55):
I don't even know where thatthought process came from,
because I've never had thatthought process, but it entered
in and I would start to thinkabout the perceived audience's
expectations of what I wasputting up rather than just
focusing on the work.
So I hide all my likes just forthat moment that I get on.
I'm not focused on it and goingwhat's that number compared to

(20:18):
that number?
What's that number?
I mean, it's just a small thingcumbered by my nonsense.
Yeah, like I've just the noisehas created a swell of absolute
nonsense, but I don't know it,just it crept in.
That's what happens, noise.
Noise creeps in, it can creepin.
So we need to be reallyconscious of noticing those
things when they do and thenattacking them head on.

Speaker 2 (20:41):
I was just going to say that I mean that, that I
mean that is a testament to thevalue of auditing our own
thoughts and feelings and justsitting with like hmm, I don't
know when this sort of occurredto me, but just at one point, to
my earlier example of spendingtime on Instagram or whatever,
it might be being more energydraining than giving, especially

(21:02):
during the workday, drainingthan giving, especially during
the workday, but I absolutelyhad that moment of it's like
wait a minute, why am I?
I'm less excited about goingback to work than I was when I
took this break.
So just paint, is there apattern here?
Yeah, there is.
This actually happensconsistently.
So just the value of, to yourpoint, being the auditor of our

(21:24):
own experience and reflecting onhow is this affecting me?
Is this a net positive or a netnegative, in different contexts
as well, because it may beneutral overall, whatever, but
it matters when we introducethese things in the mix and how
much we allow them to impact us.

Speaker 1 (21:42):
Well, and that's right below what you read on
page 40.
They talk about Andrew Wyethwhen he was working on his Helga
series.
Yeah, he worked on it privatelyfor years, worked at his own
pace, away from the spotlight ofcriticism and suggestion that
would otherwise accompanied therelease of each new piece in
this series.
So it sounds to me like usuallyand I've been to the wife house

(22:03):
in Maine, that was a really funvisit to see the studio and the
house and some of that work inperson.
But so to me it seemed as if,as he's working on a new series,
he's releasing each piece rightas he works on it.
So he's getting that criticismand suggestions as dealers,
gallery, whatever kind of youknow, giving the audience.
They're giving their point ofview on it and they're giving

(22:23):
their point of view on it.
And then it says that suchrespites also perhaps allow the
finished work time to find itsrightful place in the artist's
heart and mind.
In short, a chance to be betterunderstood by the maker.
Then, when the time comes forothers to judge the work, their
reaction, whatever it may be, isless threatening to the artist.
I've thought about that overthe years as I've read that
section in the book, because, associety has developed

(22:48):
technologically, we want thingsfaster and it's coming at us in
a much more rapid rate.
So it's like to me that's adouble negative.
Things are happening.
We want things to happen faster, but things are also coming to
us at a faster rate.
Happen faster, but things arealso coming to us at a faster
rate.
So the ability to be reallypatient as an artist and let

(23:08):
your work develop, let it grow,let yourself become truly happy
with where it's going and trulyfollowing your own heart and
where your heart feels the workshould go.
Instead, we rush things out thedoor really quick.
Sometimes we want that approval, we want to get that piece on
Instagram, we want to get it out, we want to get it to our D,

(23:30):
and then sometimes we release itand go ah, dang it, I've done
it, I'm guilty of it, I've putwork up on Instagram and then a
month later I look at it and goI don't, I'm not happy with this
at all and I remove it, take itoff Instagram, and it's like I
should have never put that outthere.
Why did I?
Well, because I wanted to seewhat the reaction of the
audience would be.
It's just to me that'sdangerous, especially if we're

(23:50):
really trying to develop, we'rereally trying to grow.
Let's not rush and, like wealways say, somebody might be
watching you, Somebody in theart world may be watching you.
Watch where you're going, watchwhere you're growing.
Don you Watch where you'regoing?
Watch where you're growing.
Don't release the work you'renot fully happy with yet.
Release the work that you feelreally confident in and really
strong in.
In the Helen Frankenthalerepisode we talked about that.

(24:12):
There was a quote that she saidand you and I kind of went back
and forth and debated it and wefelt like she was saying
there's a point where she justhas to go, I'm good with it.
And now it's moving on.
Yeah, she doesn't care whatanybody says, if they like it or
they don't like it.
She's like I'm good with it.
So it is therefore out the door.

Speaker 2 (24:33):
Yeah, I think it's important to really just keep in
mind you know why we're makingthe work in the first place, and
that it is not to meet thelowest common denominator, right
, you know, we're not trying tomake something that is just like
palatable for everybody.
I was listening to a podcast Ican't remember who the guest was

(24:54):
, but it was a filmmaker andthey were talking about how.
The interviewer asked why isthere so much just trash being
made in the film business rightnow?
And by trash I just mean justlike vanilla, just retread
scripts of just a slightlydifferent, if at all, version of

(25:15):
something we've seen 17 timesbefore.
And then we're talking abouthow Netflix, for example, will
throw crazy budgets into gettinglike whatever A-list actors,
but instead of buying a scriptthat had a singular vision by a
writer or maybe a pair or a teamor whatever it might be,

(25:40):
they're just throwing a bunch ofcash into a writer's room where
individually there probably isquite a bit of talent, but
collectively you just get thissort of homogenized base level.
You know, again, lowest commondenominator version of what
might be mildly entertaining oracceptable but is never going to
move the needle or say anythingunique or connect with people
in a real and meaningful way,and I just think that's a great
example of you know, the morevoices there are in the room,

(26:02):
the more people who get a voteon how it goes and how the work
gets completed, presumably.
I mean, yeah, definitely, theless unique that work is going
to be.

Speaker 1 (26:15):
Yeah, I just had that conversation with a group of
friends this weekend.
I was watching Gangs of NewYork.
I pulled it up.
I was just going throughlooking for something to watch.
I wanted to watch somethinggood and I pulled that up.
So I haven't seen it in a while.
And there's the scene whereBill the Butcher walks out in
the very beginning of the film,when the Warring Burroughs are
about to have their showdown inthe icy middle of the square and

(26:40):
Liam Neeson comes out with hiswhole side of the Irish and then
he's bringing out all theseother different clans are coming
out to support him.
And then, when Bill the Butchercomes out, daniel Day-Lewis,
the cinematographer, choosesthis close-up of his face and
then it's a wide shot, reallywide shot, and then it's another
kind of boom, boom in.

(27:01):
And then it's another kind ofboom, boom in.

Speaker 2 (27:11):
But the power in that moment was so creatively
beautiful that I took ascreenshot and I said it to my
friends and I said I miss truecinema.

Speaker 1 (27:24):
I'm sick and tired of all of the just.
Like you said, let's repeat thescript, get it out as quick as
we can, get as many eyes on itas we can, and then do the next
thing, the next thing, the nextthing, the next thing, and so
time isn't involved and thosethings it's not processed that
well and I went gosh, this isthe storytelling.
The attention to detail and theshots and the framing was just
so marvelous and beautiful and Iwas like that is such a
snapshot of how I want to be inthe studio Attention to all the

(27:44):
detail, focus slow, move it,build the story, release it when
it's ready, not get a bunch ofwriters in the room, rush with
something that's already beendone and get it out as quick as
we can.
And then on to the next thing.

Speaker 2 (27:57):
And.

Speaker 1 (27:57):
I think that moves in really well.
I want to read this page.
On page 47, as we kind of talkabout communication and the
artist's relationship with thework, there's a.
On page 47, he tells this story.
Filmmaker Lou Stumann tells thepainfully unapocryphal story
about hand-carrying his firstfilm, produced while he was
still a student, to the famedteacher and film theorist Slavko

(28:21):
Vorkpich.
The teacher watched the entirefilm in silence and as the
viewing ended, rosen left theroom without uttering a word.
Stuhman, more than a bit shaken, ran out after him and asked
what did you think of my film?
Replied Vorkpich what film?
The lesson here is simply thatcourting approval, even that of

(28:43):
peers, puts a dangerous amountof power in the hands of the
audience.
Worse yet, the audiences seldomin a position to grant or
withhold approval on the oneissue that really counts, namely
whether or not you're makingprogress in your work.
They're in a good position tocomment on how they're moved or
challenged or entertained byyour finished product, but have

(29:06):
little knowledge or interest inyour process.
Audience comes later.
The only pure communication isbetween you and your work.
Man, I was listening to thissection on the audiobook
yesterday when I went on a walk,because it was 69 degrees and
just beautiful yesterday morning, so I was listening to this
section and I never reallyfocused on the moment where he

(29:29):
says worse, yet the audience isseldom in a position to grant or
withhold approval on the oneissue that really counts whether
you're making progress in yourwork.
I've never thought about thatbefore, and even with friends
like you and Moxa and Allisonand our peers out there who we
may share work with and ask fortheir opinion hey, what do you

(29:50):
think?
Where's it going?
And even myself, as thecritiquer, I'm critiquing what's
happening in that piece rightnow.
I'm looking at the composition,I'm looking at the depth, I'm
looking at.
Is there something that'sthrowing the eyes off?
What's working here?
This piece has made so muchprogress than the last five

(30:13):
pieces.
Look where this is going andmoving.
Are you thinking about wherethat's taking you?
I've never thought about thatbefore and even though I've read
this book so many times, thatthought hasn't really crept into
my mind.

Speaker 2 (30:25):
Well, and it speaks to the value of again, something
we've talked about many timesbefore, but the value of having
as, as Jerry Salts puts it, ourAgain something we've talked
about many times before, but thevalue of having, as Jerry Saltz
puts it, our coven, yeah,absolutely.
Our inner circle of otherartists who are, of anybody
other than us, the mostqualified to speak to if
progress is being made, becausethey're on the journey with us

(30:48):
and they've seen what's comebefore and had real dialogue
about the work itself.
So if we are going to letsomeone else in, let's be choosy
, let's be picky about who elsewe allow to speak into our
process and our thinking aroundthe work.
But to that very last mic dropsentence of that section, the

(31:11):
only pure communication isbetween you and your work, and
so it's funny.
So you just mentioned a coupleof people that were we.
We did a Mox, alice and someothers just a little bit of a,
um, kind of a.
It was weekly for a while andthat kind of faded off for
probably a good year, year and ahalf or so.
We had, you know, weekly Zoomswhere we would talk about the

(31:31):
work, we would show differentthings, we would have different
conversations and somebody saidI don't remember who it was, but
well, ty said this about it andit was clear that they did not
agree with or like whateverfeedback you had given.
I think this is actually whilewe were still in the program.
So there was an active dialoguearound the work.
For that reason and I don'tremember who it was that said,

(31:54):
well, ty doesn't always know, hedoesn't have all the answers,
he doesn't always knoweverything, and I think that
that was really important toacknowledge Even the people who
do know us the best, even thepeople who, in that case, we
were seeking out guidance andmentorship and information from
they don't have all the answersNobody does mentorship and

(32:15):
information from.
They don't have all the answersNobody does.
Right.
So just making sure that wesort of collect a, if we're
going to do that, be selectiveabout who we give a voice to and
then auditing and beingselective about what we do with
whatever is shared, becauseoftentimes it's.
Thank you kindly for yourthoughts.
And back I go to what I feel isthat pure purist version of the

(32:37):
communication, with the workthat I'm capable of today, and
see where it takes us.

Speaker 1 (32:42):
Absolutely and I love this quote.
This is from a book by SarahThornton called Seven Days in
the Art World and she wasvisiting John Baldessari when he
was still alive, one of thegreatest art educators in
history, and was talking to himat the school and asking him
questions.
And she says Baldessari hasmentored countless artists and
although he now teaches at UCLA,he is still seen to embody the

(33:05):
think tank model that exists inone of its purest forms at
CalArts, where he was for years,even if it has spread all over
the United States.
One of his mottos is art comesout of failure.
And he tells students you haveto try things out.
You can't sit around, terrifiedof being incorrect, saying I
won't do anything until I do amasterpiece.

(33:25):
I love that quote because thepurest communication that you
have with your work is going tocome out of failure.
Yeah, being willing to trythings out, being willing to be
incorrect and do it wrong.
If we keep trying to make thatmasterpiece constantly each time
we go in the studio, we're notgoing to allow room for pure

(33:48):
communication.

Speaker 2 (33:51):
It would be like saying I'm only going to start
this maze if I can walk directlyfrom the beginning to the end.
Seriously, I don't know why.
When you're talking, I just gotthis.
I just got this flash of apicture of of how every failure
is like it's.
It's a little, it's a littledetour over here.
Oh nope, not there.
Okay, turn around.
No, I tried this before, butmaybe not in this combination.
It's.
It's nothing but a series offailures that leads to the

(34:15):
ultimate success of finding ourway out of whatever figurative
or literal maze that we might bein at that specific time.

Speaker 1 (34:23):
Absolutely, and I think that all comes from
commitment, right, that allcomes from your committed values
to you and your work.
And I want to read page 49.
There's a great, great quotehere We've talked about this
quote before by Heraclitussometime in 540 or 480 BC.
You could not step twice intothe same river, for other waters

(34:45):
are ever flowing on you.
That's just such a beautifulpicture Maybe in the same place,
but once you step in that water, if it's a river picture, maybe
in the same place, but once youstep in that water, if it's a
river, it's not the same river,because that water is moving and
the river is the water.
So and.
I want to read what they sayhere about that.
The world displays perfectneutrality on whether we achieve

(35:07):
any outward manifestation ofour inner desires, but not art.
Art is exquisitely responsive.
Nowhere is feedback so absoluteas in the making of art.
The work we make, even ifunnoticed and undesired by the
world, vibrates in perfectharmony to everything we put in
it or withhold from it.

(35:28):
In the outside world, there maybe no reaction to what we do In
our artwork.
There is nothing but reaction.
The breathtakingly wonderfulthing about this reaction is its
truthfulness.
Look at your work and it tellsyou how it is when you hold back
and when you embrace.
When you are lazy, your art islazy.
When you hold back, it holdsback.
When you hesitate, it standsthere staring hands in its

(35:50):
pockets, but when you commit, itcomes on like the blazes.
How do you interpret that?

Speaker 2 (35:58):
Well, I've definitely spent a lot of time with it.
So we got pink, we got orangewe got blue pen pencil.
So my first reaction is thishell yeah, let's get after it,
let's go nuts, let's not holdback.
Which I think is probably whereI'll end up.
But I then go to that wordhesitate, and I don't know why,

(36:19):
upon this most recent reading,in preparation for today's
episode, I was just thinkingmore about like all right, well,
certainly I don't want to belazy, I don't want to hold back,
yeah.
But then that whole idea ofhesitate, which could be
interpreted a couple ofdifferent ways.
I think in this context they'reprobably talking about again,

(36:41):
just, you know, delaying, takingaction and doing what we're
supposed to be doing.
But then I thought more about adifferent way of interpreting
that word hesitate.
You know, the, the, thelistening, the responding to the
work, and how that does requireintentional pauses to, to step
back and to, you know, engage inthat conversation.

(37:02):
And so, again, broadly, myresponse to that quote is like
let's go, like let's let's.
I mean when, when, in doubt.
You know, take some action,make some marks.
You know, get, get into some,get into some trouble from our
Amy Sillman episode.
Yeah, and the rest will takecare of itself.
But I do think about the valueof also having a rhythm in the

(37:25):
studio of both of those things,of both, call it what you want
intuitive, big marks, big messes, big whatever, but balanced out
with those soft, quietlistening moments as well,
because I don't know about you,but I, my work, requires both

(37:46):
right, both of the the the big,rough, bold, go for it, and also
the delicate, gentle, small,quiet moves and moments in
pieces.
We need both of those right.
So, again, just being aware ofwhat works for us and making
sure that we're doing whateverthe work needs to push it

(38:08):
forward.

Speaker 1 (38:08):
Does that make?

Speaker 2 (38:09):
sense.

Speaker 1 (38:09):
Yeah, but I want to differentiate the word hesitate
for the audience, because whatyou're saying is listening and
pausing, whereas hesitate meansbeing reluctant to do something
yeah Right.
So I want to use you as anexample.
Had the idea of, oh, I'll betif I started smelting I could

(38:37):
get the moments I really wantwith these metals and things in
my work.
And then you stopped and took astep back and went but I don't
know how to smelt, I'm going tohave to buy stuff, it's going to
be really hard to learn, it'sgoing to interrupt the process
that I have going with theseworks moving forward.
And then you choose not to takethat step.
That's what I think they'resaying.
Hesitate, yeah Right.
So because how many of us dothat?

(38:59):
I mean, there are things thatfor years I'd hesitate on and go
, oh, but I'm going to have torelearn, I'm going to have to
start to do this, and I'vealready kind of going in this
direction.
So I think that's thedifferentiate like pause, take
moments to think and breathethrough things, but if you
really feel something coming onin the moment, that may be the
work taking you to the nextthing.
And if you hesitate, thenyou're going to allow the work

(39:26):
and where to your work.

Speaker 2 (39:35):
That's recognizing those moments of growth and not
hesitating with them, butactually taking that chance and
going forward this goes back tojust having rules for ourselves
that we get to make up forourselves and choose to you know

(39:55):
or or not.
But one of mine is that when anidea comes to me more than once
, I have to listen.
I mean, uh, there are some goodones that just sort of are
passing and fleeting, and I tryto capture those, either act on
them or or add them to theever-growing log of you know,
maybe someday you know, uh,journal entries.
But I think that when somethingpops, you know, maybe someday
you know journal entries.
But I think that when somethingpops up, you know more than

(40:16):
once, it's our responsibility totake action on that in some
form or fashion, otherwise we'regoing to stop getting them
right.
I mean, it's kind of that wholethought process around.
All right, I need to create theright conditions to continue to
have an ongoing flow of ideasand understanding too.
Back to that how did you say it, heraclitus?

Speaker 1 (40:38):
Yeah, Heraclitus yeah .

Speaker 2 (40:40):
There it is, yeah, but the whole idea of flowing
and not being able to step intothe same river twice,
acknowledging that the riveritself, the flow itself, is
going to be different and alsoacknowledging that we ourselves
are going to be different.
And I think part of that comesfrom just sort of this abiding
faith that if I don't have theanswers today, I will get the

(41:02):
answers that I need when I'msupposed to receive them.
I will acquire from hitting abunch of dead ends in that
proverbial maze.
I will acquire the ideas, theresources, the abilities to
execute on the ideas that maybeI don't have today.
I'll share a story just fromyesterday.

(41:23):
We share a lot of our strugglesand a lot of the things that
don't go well in the studio, andprobably those are the stories
that people appreciate the most.
But I had one of those sort ofunicorn days yesterday where
everything just fit, everythingjust came into place and I had
two different sort of elements,without boring everybody with

(41:46):
the minutia of my process, but Imake a lot of elements, I work
a lot of materials that I'm notactually sure.
Is it going to be an innerlayer, an outer layer, how is it
going to connect with otherelements.
And that's sort of a quest thatI've been on lately is how many
different materials can Icombine together to tell the
same story within any given work?
But there were a couple ofpieces, a couple of elements

(42:10):
that I really liked aspects ofbut just weren't working on
their own or in combination withanything that I had tried
previously.
And yesterday was just one ofthose days where I just happened
to have stumbled across, as Iwas looking through my sort of
library of different materialsand works in progress, the right
thing that I had tried indozens of other pieces to sort

(42:35):
of audition and see if it wasgoing to make nice and work with
the other elements at play, andit never did.
And it's just one of thosethings where, like just
yesterday just happened to bethe day right when I had, I was
listening, the river was flowingin a certain way, where the
things fit right.
So just acknowledging asfrustrating as it was for me,

(42:55):
because this, this element inparticular, I was really excited
to use, probably too excited,right, I had a plan, there was
something that I needed from thework, I needed to use it, I
needed it to work, I was reallyexcited about it, but just like
kept over and over and overagain in previous attempts
striking out in finding a way toto use it, again in previous

(43:15):
attempts striking out in findinga way to use it, but again just
having that belief that, hey,if it's not today, it'll be
tomorrow.
If it's not tomorrow, it'll beat some point in the future.
Whenever it's supposed to work,it will.
And in the meantime we keepjumping in the river and we keep
stumbling through the maze,doing the best we can on that
particular day.
Absolutely Love it.
So the next quote I wanted totalk about, ty.

(43:36):
This is on the bottom of page53.
It reads If, indeed, for anygiven time, only a certain sort
of work resonates with life,then that is the work you need
to be doing in that moment.
If you try to do some otherwork, you will miss your moment.
Indeed, your own work is soinextricably tied to time and

(43:56):
place that we cannot recaptureeven our own ascetic ground of
past times.
This is annoying to me.
It's annoying when I feelcompelled to do a certain thing,
work on a certain piece, workwith a certain you know whatever
, fill in the blank, forwhatever your process is or

(44:18):
whatever your creative journeyis, but I find it really it's
frankly, it's really frustratingto be like God.
I just I cannot get this out ofmy head.
I just have to keep pullingthis particular thread and
seeing where it leads.
But I think that, again back tothat idea that you were talking
about before, of having aroutine, having you know
whatever rules in place, likethat, has become one for me.

(44:40):
That has now paid off so manytimes.
I can't ignore it, even thoughit always frustrates me.
And what's frustrating is I hadan idea about what I was going
to accomplish this month, thisweek, this day, to move things
forward on my particular agenda,but the work that resonates

(45:02):
with life doesn't care aboutthat, and thank goodness,
because that's where the mostauthentic work comes from.
So the rule, the way ofoperating becomes, I think, for
me anyway, when I'm doing itright is just listening, being
like all right, well, doggone it, okay, all right, I'm just
going to keep doing this until Idon't feel like I have to do it

(45:24):
anymore.
And I think what's frustratingabout that is that usually the
thing that I'm being pulled byis something that is not going
to probably lead to a completedwork, it's probably not going to
give me the feeling that I'mchasing often in the studio,
which is, hey, I completed this,I finished this work that I'm,
that I am excited about andproud of.

(45:46):
It's usually going to lead to abunch of dead ends and a bunch
of experiments and a bunch ofthings, a bunch of mistakes that
don't work, but ultimately takeme somewhere where I'm supposed
to go, even though I have nofreaking clue where that might
be.

Speaker 1 (46:02):
Until TBD We'll see Well, and I think that's not
giving up on the idea as well,because so many times we get
this idea, we start moving on itand things aren't working out
the way we want to, so weabandon it really quickly.
For something else.
And so I think sometimes life istelling us and the work is
telling us no, this is the spot,this is the area, and, like the

(46:27):
Baldessari quote, we have towork it out, we have to fail, we
have to mess up, we have tomake a mess to get to it.
And I think that goes back towhat I said earlier.
With this rush Likeeverything's coming at us fast
and we want that recognitionfast, we want to hear what
people have to say fast, and sowe may miss that moment.
We miss that moment to createour best work because we're in

(46:47):
such a rush to get somewherethat we leave creating from what
is right in front of us in lifeat this moment that it's
telling us to make for somethingelse.
That's just a dangerous road to.
That's a dangerous road to playon Very dangerous.
What do you mean by that?
Well, I think if, if you're notwilling to play out that idea,
you're going to get stuck infollowing a trend.

(47:08):
You're going to get stuck indoing what somebody else is
doing.
That's not your work, that'ssomebody else's work Sure Right,
because if you're courtingapproval, those things start
sneaking in because you'refrustrated with where things
aren't going in the moment.
Rather than sticking to it andjust creating through it and
letting it lead you in themoment, you start looking other

(47:29):
places.
You start looking for othervoices to feed in that aren't
your voice.
That pure communication thatwe're talking about starts to
dissolve a little bit to theedges.

Speaker 2 (47:41):
So it seems like it may become a matter of
acknowledging that we don't needto understand why we're being
pulled in a specific direction.
We just need to listen to thepull when it comes.
Yes, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (47:54):
And I think that leads great into page 55, where
they talk about if you're likemost artists we know, you're
probably accustomed to watchingyour work unfold smoothly for
long stretches of time until oneday, for no apparent reason, it
doesn't so when we're in thatmoment of listening to the work
and following life.
Where life has us in the work,things are going great and then

(48:15):
all of a sudden boom.
Right, that moment hits and itdoesn't.
And they say, hitting thatunexpected rift is commonplace,
to the point of cliche.
Yet artists commonly treat eachrecurring instance as a somber
evidence of their own personalfailure, and I love how they
give this little graph here.

(48:36):
Kind of nominees for leadingrole in continuing to artist
funk are number one you'veentirely run out of new ideas
forever.
Number two you've beenfollowing a worthless dead end
path the whole time and thewinner is fortunately neither.
One of the best kept secrets ofart making is that new ideas
come into play far lessfrequently than practical ideas,

(48:59):
ideas that can be reused for athousand variations, supplying
the framework for a whole bodyof work rather than a single
piece.
Interesting, interestingthought there.
I battled with that for a longtime.
I wrestled with that one,because I keep wanting to do new

(49:23):
things and try new ideas and dothese new things and not do
anything that I did before.
I don't want to do this.
If I did that, I don't want todo it anymore.
I'm going to do something elseand then, after studying, Well,
hold on, hold on on that.

Speaker 2 (49:33):
So that brings into question is this a brand
spanking new idea or is it apractical variation of something
that has come before?
We're getting into semanticshere.
I mean, we could define it forourselves however we choose, but
that was something that Ireally thought about with this

(49:55):
particular excerpt was justidentifying, like, all right, a
brand new idea is a verydifferent thing than a practical
variation of an existing one,which, to the author's point, is
far more common than somethingthat is brand new.
Those practical ideas, thosevariations of something we're

(50:17):
already doing, are also scarybecause we just don't know yet.
We don't know how it's going toimpact the work.
We don't know how it's going toimpact.
I want to try something.
I want to maybe just again avariation of something that I
already have in front of me,something that I'm already
working on, but the fear of whatif this messes it up, what if

(50:40):
this ruins something that I'mlooking at, that I'm kind of
digging, that I'm kind offeeling, that I kind of feel or
believe might be on the path,you know, to being something you
know worthwhile.
I think you know that wholeidea of what if?
And just being leaning into thecuriosity that we all have.
I mean, if there's one commoncharacteristic of artists, it's

(51:01):
that we're all inherentlycurious beings.
I think the difference betweenthose that push the work forward
and those that maybe get stuckand camp out longer than they
should on one particular thingis the action of the what if?
Idea.
It's the taking the you know,theoretical curiosity into a

(51:25):
practical attempt at execution.
Yeah, that's really where thenew, the new idea, the new thing
can actually blossom and becomesomething.
Well, I read, so actually Iwant to.
Before you go, yeah, I want to.
So I'm imagining somebody mightbe listening to us right now
and thinking like, well, what ifI'm just not having new ideas?

(51:47):
What if I'm just kind of beenstuck and I just I'm not sure
where to take things?
I think a practical or tactical, you know, idea to maybe sit
with and consider is just whichvariables could you just play
with?
We all have a number ofdifferent variables that were,
that were, you know, using, thatare in the sort of mix and in

(52:08):
the ingredients.
Um, for the work that we'redoing right now, I mean, one
small shift can make a massivedifference in the result,
absolutely.

Speaker 1 (52:17):
And this is I was reading.
When I was reading this again,they followed up on page 57.
And I hadn't really thoughtabout this too deeply before.
But they say, when things gohaywire, your best opening
strategy might be to return verycarefully and consciously to
the habits and practices in playthe last time you felt good

(52:37):
about the work, return to thespace you drifted away from and
sometimes, at least, the workwill return as well.
And we're going to have moments, as artists, where things are
not feeling good in the studio.
Right, nothing's working.
It could last for months, itcould last for weeks, days Some

(52:58):
of us it could last a year wherethings just are not feeling
good.
And this happened to me a whileback where there were things I
was happy with but there werethings that were just really
frustrating, frustrating me inthe studio and felt limiting.
So I went back and I grabbedall the work from let's see 2012
to today that I felt werereally strong pieces, even

(53:22):
though the older work I felt wasweak, I thought it was strong
for that period in my career,and so I put them all on in a
folder and then I went and Ilooked at them all and I went.
Why did I abandon that?
Why did I leave that idea?
And it was like I only did thatfor like three paintings, but
for some reason it felt like.

Speaker 2 (53:39):
Give me a specific example.
What are you talking aboutexactly?

Speaker 1 (53:41):
Yeah, I mean even the utilization of tape for just a
little bit of deconstruction ina piece.
We're just putting little linesof tape in while I'm painting
over and doing layers, withtransferring things and then
removing the tape, and it'sleaving the multiple things
underneath that were transferredin that place, even something

(54:01):
small like that.
I did it for a series in 2019.
I was using tape for textureand things and I went oh, there
were some moments I really loved.
Why did I completely abandonthat Totally?
There were some moments Ireally loved in that.
Why did I completely abandon?
that Totally, yeah, I stillhaven't explored the ends of
that yet, and so I startedbringing it into some pieces
Right, and it did take me tosome areas that maybe even that

(54:27):
made me even think throughthings with my cardboard
transfers that I could do tomimic that without even using
tape.
It took me to new things and soI kind of went why, why would I
completely abandon some thingsthat worked?
The pieces aren't the same.
The pieces are years.
They've grown in years ofwisdom and knowledge from that
point.
So therefore even thattechnique should grow the next

(54:50):
time I use it years down theroad grow.

Speaker 2 (54:53):
The next time I use it years down the road, and
revisiting the old thing withwho you are and how you work
today is naturally going toproduce a different result,
because you've acquiredeverything you have since then.
Yep, like back to the earlierquote we read before.
You couldn't recreate thatspecifically, even if you wanted
to Right, you wouldn't want toanyway.

Speaker 1 (55:14):
I wouldn't want to, but it would be really hard to.
Yeah, it'd be really hard.

Speaker 2 (55:18):
So you're naturally going to open up new doors and
have new veins to mine when werevisit old things with new
information.
I mean, as you're sharing thatstory, I was thinking about my
relationship with wood and how Ihad done a body of work that
was very clearly wood.

(55:39):
That was when I was reallyfirst starting to use pallets
and crates and such, and I'mproud of that work.
There's a lot of work in thatthat I like.
But in looking at it together,I'm like this is just obviously
a lot of wood, and so I don'tknow where I got this idea.
I honestly can't say whether ornot it was a matter of me going

(56:00):
where I was led or feeling likeI needed to do something
different for other externalreasons, but I kind of abandoned
anything.
I still use wood as a structure, but not it wouldn't, wouldn't
allow that to shine through, andso, anyway, recently I had a
couple pieces where it just sortof started to re-emerge and I'm
like, hey, there, hey, hey,buddy, hey, old friend, how are

(56:24):
you?
Yeah, good, good to see you,and let's see and and and some
of the works I'm doing.
I'm actually I'm really excitedagain to like let that sort of
reemerge, but it's expressingitself in completely different
and novel ways because ofeverything else that's
transpired since then.

Speaker 1 (56:40):
Nathan, if you weren't, if you didn't have a
value of volume which we'regoing to talk about here coming
up, you might have missed thosemoments.

Speaker 2 (56:49):
He's a professional.
Ladies and gentlemen, that's asegue, that's a segue.

Speaker 1 (56:54):
You're sustaining your process over a period of
time and creating a volume ofwork.
And they talk about this onpage 61 when they say this is
one of my favorite quotes in thebook For most artists, making
good art depends on making lotsof art, and any device that

(57:18):
carries the first brushstroke tothe next blank canvas has
tangible practical value.
So, just thinking about thatend, any device that carries the
first brushstroke to the nextblank canvas has tangible
practical value, meaning you'vemoved on from the last canvases,
the last things, you're movingon to a next one, which means
you're making more work overtime.
And I love at the bottom andread the last paragraph to hold

(57:39):
on.

Speaker 2 (57:40):
Yeah, Does the cricket have anything that it
wants to add?
You know?

Speaker 1 (57:43):
if I could find Jiminy in my office, he would be
set free outside Moxa.
If you're listening, I wouldnot kill him, I would scoop him
up and I would put him outsideMoxa, if you're listening.
I would not kill him, I wouldscoop him up and I would put him
outside.
That is for one of our dear,dear friends, who is a prominent
leader in the Buddhistcommunity in Spain and all over
the world.

(58:04):
So, moxa, I love you and I'vetaken a lot of your things to
heart.
That cricket will be set freeoutside, so I don't know how
often he's been like chirping inliterally but I just started.

Speaker 2 (58:16):
I just started hearing recently.
Obviously, since we talkedabout it before we started
recording, I wanted to make sureand point it out well, he
wanted to point out the value ofvolume, I think so.

Speaker 1 (58:24):
He let us know, thereby rubbing his legs
together, that it was importantuh, there's probably a good
example there.
I don't know exactly whatcrickets are communicating if I
find them probably has somethingto do with.
I'll ask him if I probablysomething to example there.
I don't know exactly whatcrickets are communicating.
If I find them, I'll be hassomething to do with.

Speaker 2 (58:35):
I'll ask him if I.
Probably something to do withmating Right.
So you know, let's get back tovolume creating more work.

Speaker 1 (58:41):
Oh, all right, Jumping ahead to the bottom here
.
I love how they say on 61,.
The hardest part of art makingis living your life in such a
way that your work gets doneover and over, and that means,
among other things, finding ahost of practices that are just
plain useful.
A piece of art is the surfaceexpression of a life lived

(59:03):
within productive patterns.
Over time, the life of aproductive artist becomes filled
with useful conventions andpractical methods, so that a
string of finished piecescontinue to appear at the
surface.
It's just work, work, get itdone, make more, make more.
The more you make, the moretime you spend, the more you

(59:23):
start to realize things and gainwisdom in your practice to keep
growing and keep developing.

Speaker 2 (59:29):
The practicality of that, I think, is really worth
commenting on.
Yeah, you know the useful andpractical methods that they
write about.
I mean right before what youjust shared.
They use the example ofHemingway, always mounding his
typewriter at counter height anddoing all his writing while
standing up.
Way ahead of that trend, by theway.

Speaker 1 (59:47):
Yeah, way ahead.

Speaker 2 (59:49):
But the takeaway there for me is just pay
attention to what works for youand commit to creating and
developing and protecting theconditions that serve your
process.
Yeah, it's fantastic, right?
I had a studio visit earlierthis week from a friend of mine.

(01:00:16):
Robert Najal is incrediblytalented and gifted painter and
and and writer.
We actually met throughclubhouse back when that was a
thing, and we're in one of theart rooms and identified that we
live like a mile and a halffrom each other.
So we've had a chance to hangout a couple of times since then
.
But he was here on on um onMonday and we were.
We were talking and looking atsome complete work up front and
getting him back and looking atdifferent things and before I

(01:00:37):
knew it, my ADD had taken overand all of a sudden I'm starting
to putz a little bit andstarting to work on it.
As I'm talking and he's likehey, I've been here for a while.
If you want to go ahead andwork on that, go for it.
And I was like hey, thanks.
He's like are you sure I'm?

Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
actually probably better conversationally when.

Speaker 2 (01:00:57):
I'm focused on making something.
So he's watching me.
You know, do whatever I wasdoing and I, I've got my little,
my, uh, my carts on wheels,each of which that has a a
specific thing, right?
So I've got my torch cart, my,my texture cart, my carving,
anyway.
But anyway, he just commentedand just made me think of this.
He commented, he goes youclearly have a system here that

(01:01:19):
works for you.
Yeah, he's like I like, I likewatching.
I mean, we all as artists, weall nerd out and love watching
each other work.
That's why those, the artdocumentaries are so fun to
watch.
It's the little things thatonly artists would even pay
attention to or would connectwith them.
But I think just that point oflike it took me a long time and
I'm still always, as we all areright refining our process, but

(01:01:40):
just really paying attention tothe conditions that lead to the
work.
You know the conditions.
That's one of the only thingsthat we can actually control,
right, I can't control how thework's going to go, how I'm
going to feel, what the result'sgoing to be, but I can't
control how the work's going togo, how I'm going to feel what
the result's going to be, but Ican absolutely, at the very
least, influence, if not controlentirely, the conditions of the
studio, the material as I'mworking, which will naturally

(01:02:05):
increase the percentage ofthings actually working and
leading somewhere where I wantthem to go.

Speaker 1 (01:02:10):
Well, and that's the quote by Robert Farrar Capone
that says no artist can simplywork for results.
They must also like the work ofgetting them.
I love making the work far morethan I like seeing the piece
finished on a wall Right Likethe process, the thinking
through, the diving in, thetrying.
This, this is working.
This isn't the problem solving,the figuring out, discovering

(01:02:30):
new answers to questions Ihaven't even asked yet.
Like for me.
That's what I'm working for.
I'm not just working for theresult of the piece.
I'm also loving the fact thateverything that's going into
making it is making me evenbetter.

Speaker 2 (01:02:45):
And in a game like this, if you don't love the
process, good luck.
Yeah, good luck, I mean, if theonly acceptable, whatever
positive feedback is thefinished piece that you are
proud of and that you love iswhat's fueling you.
I don't know.
I mean, I can't speak foreveryone else's experience and

(01:03:06):
maybe there are some people forwhom that works, but I cannot
imagine a world where that wouldbe enough to actually do all of
the work and make all of themistakes needed to get to those
finished pieces.

Speaker 1 (01:03:17):
Yeah, and we have to be engaging the unknown and all
that Like we don't know what'sgoing to happen from the moment
we start to the moment we finish.
We really don't.
We may see it in our head.
We talked about it last week.
The vision is always ahead ofexecution.
I love the Brancuse quote thatsays on page 65, to see far is
one thing, but going there isanother thing.

(01:03:38):
That's the whole vision aheadof execution, again, just said
in a different way.
And they say to the artist allproblems of art appear uniquely
personal.
Well, that's understandableenough, given that not many
other activities call one'sbasic self-worth into question.
But those really personalproblems all relate to the
making of art.
Once the art has been made, anentirely new set of problems

(01:04:01):
arise, problems that require theartist to engage the outside
world.
Call them ordinary problems.
I just love that, but there isa necessity that we have to have
with engaging the unknown inorder to push our artistic
boundaries.
We have to that whole justbeing in the studio and spending

(01:04:22):
as much time that you havecurrently, because I know we
have moms and dads and full-timeemployees and people that all
listen to this podcast becausewe've heard their stories from
them.
I don't have enough time.
I don't have, I only have this.
It's doing what you can in thattime to create as much work as
you can in those moments.
I'm not saying finish work,that could be just playing on

(01:04:42):
six canvases or playing with sixpiles of clay and doing things
and embracing the unknown.
I don't know what's coming, butI sure am glad I get to try
today and find something in thework, sure.

Speaker 2 (01:04:54):
I'm glad I get to try today and find something in the
work, that part of that quotethat just it makes me.
It makes me laugh.
Not many other activitiesroutinely call one's basic
self-worth into question.
Um, but it's so, it's so, sotrue, I mean I, I, I go back to
you know, I spent a good goodpart of my professional life
before art, you know in in salesand in coaching and teaching

(01:05:16):
people how to sell, and one ofthe self-talk mantras that was
incredibly helpful in dealingwith rejection is they're not
saying no to you, they're justsaying no to what you're selling
.
They're not rejecting youpersonally, they just happen to
not be interested in what you'reselling.
And that was true in thatcontext.

(01:05:38):
That was true, it is the exactopposite.

Speaker 1 (01:05:41):
It's not true anymore .

Speaker 2 (01:05:42):
Like if someone doesn't like your art, if we
give that voice too much weight,or even just how we feel while
we're making it about the worklike our basic self-worth into
question.
No, if you don't like my work,you don't like me.
Yeah, you are rejecting me.
It is intensely personal.

(01:06:03):
Um, that's not the truth, butit's certainly a lie that is
easy to believe I swallow aheart.

Speaker 1 (01:06:09):
I've swallowed that hard for years, man, man Like
I've.
I don't know what.
My favorite pieces are alwaysthe most disliked.
Yeah, my favorite pieces that Imake are not the ones that the
dealer selects.
The gallery chooses that.
My friends like that, my wifelike my favorite pieces.
I don't know why they seem tobe the most disliked out of the

(01:06:34):
bunch.
And, man, forever, it wouldjust demolish me Because I'd do
a piece and I'd go oh my gosh, Ican't believe I just did that.
That's where I wanted to go,that's where I was trying to get
to, that's the thing, that'sthe one.
And then put it in the group ofwork for a solo show and the
curator selects 12, and that oneand I go and I would go.

(01:06:59):
How in the world?
I don't get it.
It's far and above those 12.
Totally, it has nothing to dowith me.
It has to do with, right,that's that whole new set of
problems that they're talkingabout.
Now the outside world isinvolved.
Yeah, now it has nothing to dowith you.
Now it has to do with thatcurator's taste.
That gallerist like what theyknow their audience will

(01:07:23):
purchase or buy over other ones.
Right, there's a whole new setof problems that pop up.
But man, for years I would justswallow that hard.
And then I went well, hey, atleast I get to keep my favorite
pieces.

Speaker 2 (01:07:38):
That's the benefit I told somebody.
It's funny.
I had this conversationrecently.
I told somebody that I know apiece is done that the age old.
How do you know, when I know apiece is done, when I'd be
excited if it never leaves thestudio or if at some point it
ends up in my house?

Speaker 1 (01:07:55):
you know what I mean.
Like that's keep it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:57):
I'm, I'm, I like, I like be, I like it being around
me, I like looking at it.
So you know it's okay.
I wanted to actually jump back,if it's okay, ty, to the end of
page 62.
I just there was the lastsentence I think is worth
commenting on.
Once you have found the workyou are meant to do, the
particulars of any single piecedon't matter all that much, yeah

(01:08:17):
, which really just reinforcesthat whole idea of volume and

(01:08:45):
not identifying too much withany one piece.
Yeah, you know, make, just makemore art, make more work.
It's so, so easy to fall in thattrap of really trying to derive
way more self-worth than anyone piece could give us, even if
it was successful, let alonethe fact that if all we're doing
is pulling one lottery ticket,one scratch off, is, is this the
one?
Well, the fewer you have, thelower the chances of it being
one of the ones, one of theprecious few that are really,

(01:09:09):
are really going to sing.
So I think, um, of coursethat's a goal for for all of us
is like trying to find the workthat we're meant to do, but just
keeping in mind that that ispart of the reward for doing
that is that we then get to aplace where the particulars of
any single piece don't matterall that much.
Right?
Then we get to operate from aplace of abundance rather than

(01:09:30):
scarcity, and that's a beautifulplace to be, no matter what
we're talking about, right?
Like, hey, if it's not this one, it'll be one of the other ones
that I'm about to work on orthat I'm working on right now.
The particulars of this singlepiece just don't matter that
much, it's huge.

Speaker 1 (01:09:46):
Well and over time you change.
All these hard lessons I'velearned, I've changed.
Those things don't bother meanymore.
And I think it goes in as wellto just courage that you have to
have in the unknown and havinghope in the future.
Knowing that if you'reconstantly making work and
growing and making and makingand making, having this hope

(01:10:09):
that by creating a lot of workyou're going to create some
really good work that gets outinto the art world and where you
want it to go.
And I love this quote.
This is a little section from agreat book by Austin Kleon
called Keep Going.
It's the third in a trilogy.
Steal like an artist, show yourwork and then keep going.
And he says art is the highestform of hope, said painter

(01:10:33):
Gerhard Richter.
But hope is not about knowinghow things will turn out.
It's moving forward in the faceof uncertainty.
It's a way of dealing withuncertainty.
Hope is an embrace of theunknown and the unknowable,
writes Rebecca Solnit.
To have hope, you mustacknowledge that you don't know
everything and you don't knowwhat's going to happen.
That's the only way to keepgoing and the only way to keep

(01:10:54):
making art, to be open to thepossibility and allow yourself
to be changed.
I don't know where my work'sgoing to go.
I don't know if somebody'sgoing to like it or not.
I don't know if a curator isgoing to choose it for a show.
I don't know if somebody'sgoing to sell it.
I don't know.
So I know there's so manyuncertain things around my work

(01:11:15):
once it gets to the outsideworld, but the one place I can
control is myself and my work inthe studio and in my time when
I'm making it.

Speaker 2 (01:11:25):
Well, and Richter would be a phenomenal use case
for the example that we talkedabout before in terms of
creating the conditions.
You know I mean if you know hiswork and know his process, if
you've watched the documentaryor watched, you know there's so
many things he's definitelyleaning into uncertainty.
There's so many things he'sdefinitely leaning into

(01:11:54):
uncertainty, but he has very,very, very specifically
cultivated, is excited to make.
Yeah, even if leaning into thatuncertainty, even when you know
it doesn't, which certainlyhappens for him like anybody
else.
I love that quote, though.
Art is the highest form of hope.

Speaker 1 (01:12:11):
There's a great book that's titled Artists the
Highest Form of Hope, and it'sjust all quotes from artists.
It's a great, great book.
Okay, speaking of uncertainty?
Hey, okay, speaking ofuncertainty, hey, we have no
idea how people will react toour work and we have to find
ways to reject traditionalvalidation of our work, because

(01:12:34):
our head creates all the thingswe need validation for.
We need validation for that aresome perceived things that we
have in our head from whereverwe heard it, read it, listened
to it.
That has seeped into our heads,and I'm going to touch on this
real quickly and then move on alittle bit.
But if you're a self-taughtartist out there, you don't need

(01:12:56):
an MFA or an institutionalvalidation to create meaningful
art.
There's, for some reason,reason, a myth that exists in
self-taught artist heads that,well, I'm never going to make it
because I didn't go to artschool.
I'm never going to make itbecause I don't have an MFA.
Do MFAs help?
Sure, of course MFAs can help,but they haven't helped every

(01:13:17):
artist that's gotten an MFA Alot of artists with really big
debts who are not making artright now.
Aside from that, you can learnanything you need to learn
practically by being in thestudio and becoming a student of
art.
Right, you're a great example,nathan right.
No, mfa, you didn't go to artschool.
No, you're a self-taught artist.

(01:13:37):
You've taught yourself how todo your craft.
Now I went to art school and Ilearned a lot of things,
classical things.
I grew up in art.
I don't have an MFA, so do Ihave a little bit of a head
start, maybe on some practicalthings, maybe on some certain
things composition or things Ididn't have to learn at an older
age.
But, trust me, plenty offriends out there who are doing
wonderful things in the artworld that have no institutional

(01:13:59):
backing for their art, andthat's okay, that's fine.
So don't let that get you down.
If you're an artist, that is,should I go get an MFA?
Should I go to art school?
It's an option, it's definitelyan option, but you don't have
to have it.

Speaker 2 (01:14:12):
Yeah.
Yeah, I do sometimes thinkabout or wonder how much
different my work would be orhow much longer it would take me
to get to where I ultimatelywant to go, if I was thinking
about how to do it right.
I mean, I've discovered somethings that I'm excited about by

(01:14:34):
doing it wrong or just by doingthings that aren't even in the
book to begin with.
So there are benefits to both,absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:14:42):
To both camps yeah, there are major benefits on each
side.
Absolutely okay, just real.
Quickly, I want to tap on justthe pressures of social media
and how they serve as symbols ofacceptance or comparison traps,
and I want to read this littlesection on competition on page
71 in the book.
Good artists thrive on exhibitand publication deadlines, on

(01:15:04):
working 20 hours straight to seethe pots are glazed and fired
just so, or making the next workbetter than their last.
The urge to compete provides asource of raw energy and for
that purpose alone, it can beexceptionally useful In a
healthy artistic environmentthat energy is directed inward
to fulfill one's potential.
In a healthy artisticenvironment, that energy is

(01:15:25):
directed inward to fulfill one'spotential.
In a healthy artisticenvironment, artists are not in
competition with each other.
Unfortunately, healthy artisticenvironments are about as
common as unicorns.
We live in a society thatencourages competition at
demonstrably vicious levels andsets a hard and a cannibal
yardstick for judging who winsman.
I think we all know that really, really well.

(01:15:45):
We think that all the artistswe're looking at that seem like
they have all their shittogether on Instagram are so
much better and so further alongthan us, and their life is
perfect and their work isamazing and I'm never going to
achieve what they're doing.
I will tell you because I knowa lot of artists on Instagram

(01:16:10):
that put up beautiful posts andeverything looks perfect and
nothing is perfect.
Nothing is perfect.
They are struggling likeeverybody else.
They've lost galleries, haven'tsold work, things aren't moving
.
They're struggling, struggling,struggling to do anything.
Now the perception is God, theymust be selling a ton of work.
I'll bet that lady or thatdude's a millionaire.
He looks like he's selling somuch work.
Or gosh, that studio's massive.

(01:16:32):
Well, he's a king at using awide angle and it's not as big
as you think.
Or they're showing in a gallerythis week and you don't know
that that gallery is theirstudio.
It's not an actual gallery,it's another I mean perception.
There's a great, great fake iton Instagram.
Feel and look for a lot ofartists that do a really good
job at creating really beautifulthings and their looks and

(01:16:55):
feels, but it's not exactly howit is.
But yet we continue to compareand then we go back and we get
down and then all the voices andthe noise turns up and we're
not able to be focused on whatwe should be making today
because we're so influenced byall these feelings that we have,
that it's taking away from ourfocus in the studio.
So another, it's just anotherbeware.

(01:17:16):
It's great to use comparison todrive you where you go and I do
do it.
I go.
Oh my gosh, look where she is.
Wow, she's crushed.
I got to get in the studio moreRight, it's like Helen
Frankenthaler and Grace.
Hartigan Right when Grace cameinto the studio and went are you
effing kidding me?
And then sprinted to her studioand made Massacre Right One of

(01:17:37):
her most famous pieces.

Speaker 2 (01:17:39):
I love what I just saw.
You know it and I know it andI'm going to go back to my
studio and knock your eyes outyes, and I'm going to title it.
Massacre because I just killedyou, but that I mean, look, it's
so funny, here I've actuallygot this 9th Street Women
example.
I actually had that writtendown.
I wanted to talk about that andyou brought you, beat me to it,

(01:17:59):
it's.
It's a perfect example, I think, of listen.
There is, there is a version ofhealthy competition that is very
useful If you are wired acertain way.
There is a way, I believe, toleverage whatever competitive
nature that you might have inyou in a way that does produce a

(01:18:21):
healthy energy as opposed to anunhealthy.
You know comparison I thinkabout.
I forget who said the quotecomparison is a thief of joy.
I want to say Teddy Roosevelt,but I could be wrong about that,
but it's a, it's a great, it'ssuch.
A comparison is the thief ofjoy.
The moment I'm experiencing joy, the moment I'm having a good

(01:18:42):
time on my little you knowfishing boat and little fishing
boat and the yacht rolls by andI'm like, well shit, my life
sucks because I'm on this littlething and not Meanwhile you're
on the water, baby, you'rehaving a day.
You know what I mean.
So comparison, I think, is verydangerous.
But I think competition in ahealthy sense, which I do
believe exists is useful.

(01:19:04):
When, back to the book, thatenergy is directed inward.
If I'm trying to beat you, well, that's probably leaning
towards the unhealthy range.
But back to that whole.
Like judging who wins.
Whole, like judging who wins.

(01:19:27):
Well, when winning is definedas competing with myself to do
the best that I can do and usingyou as an example of what's
possible.
Well, that's, that's useful.
Yeah, that that is healthy.
It's not all bad.
Yeah, competition is not allbad.
It's not, but it has to be.
We have to, we have to be.
We have to get clear about whatour relationship with it is and
what we do with the feelingsthat competition can arise in

(01:19:49):
some of us.
Yeah, that's the key.

Speaker 1 (01:19:51):
I mean, it's gosh, it's so easy because you sit
there, and years ago, when Ifell in love with Easter Gates
work, I was just blown away andI was going oh my gosh, these
paintings are phenomenal, thesesculptures are incredible.
Oh my gosh, these paintings arephenomenal.
These sculptures are incredible.
Oh my gosh, these found objectpieces are insane.
And it's like whoa hold onInstallations too.
These installations are how inthe world?

(01:20:12):
You know they go oh, what's nowceramics?
Now he's doing these huge,insane pots and he's using tar.
How in the world is he doingall these things?
Wait, he just built a.
He just built a house that isfor sound, for record records
and people just to come listento records, and then it's across
from a studio.
But and I'm going how do I getthere?
How do I get?
It'd be really easy to go.

(01:20:33):
I'm never going to get there,never, yeah, never, and I'm
probably not going to, but itdoesn't mean I can't go.
I want to get there.

Speaker 2 (01:20:42):
We all have artists that do that for us and to us.
Yeah, absolutely To us.
We were at the Art Institute ofChicago a couple of months ago
and I've seen about four of ElAnatsui's pieces in person.

Speaker 1 (01:20:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:20:59):
One or maybe two at the Broad in LA Most recently.
Like I said, they are Instituteof Chicago, but we came around
the corner.
I was there with my daughter,we came around the corner and
I'm just like what?

Speaker 1 (01:21:10):
Yeah, mind blown yeah .

Speaker 2 (01:21:12):
And we talked about this in the last episode too,
about how that can move us ineither direction and sometimes
both.
I mean, sometimes you just havethat feeling of like what the
fucking point?
Like why am I, why am I evenbothering?
Like well, okay this is.
They are playing a differentgame and I am unqualified to

(01:21:34):
even lace them up and and andget on the field.
But again, like it's that andand we've talked about this
before too like leaving a museum, leaving a show and just being
like, well, it was a good run,could have been a good art
career, but just figuring outhow to sort of process that and
use that as an example of what'spossible, of what could be, I

(01:21:59):
think is incredibly empoweringand incredibly powerful, and I
just it's just important to notget stuck on the, on the one
side of the coin, withoutfinding a way to flip it and be
like, well, listen, they didn'tget there overnight.
They everyone, every artistthat we would use to fill in the

(01:22:21):
blank.
And if you're listening to usright now, you can think of your
Mount Rushmore of artists where, when you see their work,
you're just like, why am I evenbothering?
Every one of them was whereyou're at right now was where
we're at right now, which isstriving to get, to get there,
you know, but yeah, it's, it's ait's.
It's funny to think about thosemoments and just realizing that

(01:22:42):
I don't know You're walking outof a museum, you're just like,
sometimes, walking out of a show, whatever.
Sometimes you're just like, allright, I don't feel.
Sometimes I feel superenergized and stoked, and how
quickly can I get back to thestudio?
Other times it is that Justwell, it's time to hang them up
and quit.
But just acknowledging likethis is just something that

(01:23:02):
happens when I see phenomenalwork.
Just acknowledging back to whatwe talked about a lot in the
previous episode, in part one,about how this is just part of
it.
One of our family stories thatwe love to share is there was
our oldest daughter, was likefour years old, and it was the
first snow of the winter and Ijust wasn't ready.

(01:23:25):
It was too.
It was like like late October,early November is too early, you
know.
And I, you know, come down thestairs and you just see, you're
just overwhelmed by just the,the, the brightness of the, of
the, of the white, and I justsaid something like, oh man, not
, not a, no, I just know.
And and then he goes, dad, it'ssnow.

(01:23:47):
It happens every winter.
I'm like you know what sweetie?
You're exactly right, it doeshappen every single winter.
Point being, I shouldn't besurprised that that snow came
again.
In other words, back to the artexample.
We shouldn't be surprised thatthat snow came again.
In other words, back to the artexample.
We shouldn't be surprised whenwe have the feelings and the
responses that we're having,because it's a natural response

(01:24:09):
to something that happensconsistently, over and over
again, which means thatidentifying and acknowledging
that it's happened before, it'sgoing to happen again, and then
realizing it's going to be okay,spring is going to come.
So, one foot in front of theother, just keep swimming.

Speaker 1 (01:24:27):
You're just going to have to figure out ways, artists
, to deal with these pressuresin the way that works for you
best, whatever that may be.
Like me leaving my phone in theroom in the morning, hiding the
likes on my work on Instagram,not spending as much time
constantly scrolling like usingit with a purpose that has an

(01:24:47):
aim, not an aimless purpose,right?
I use Instagram as that visualjournal for my artwork.
For those in the art world thatmay be watching me that I don't
know are watching me, that maybe.
So.
I put up work.
When I feel like it's strong tome, I put it up.
I put up a video here and thereto do this.
I'm using it as that visualdiary of the work and where I

(01:25:10):
may be going.
For those that might bewatching me.
It used to be I want to get abunch of followers.
I want to get a bunch of likes.
I want to get approval.
I want to get that gives mevalidation.
If I have more, the art worlddoesn't care about the
validation you're getting onInstagram.
They're looking at the work.
They want to see the work.
If they're following you whichthe way the art world works is

(01:25:32):
they follow you without hittingfollow most of the time.
Figure out the things that arereally drawing you away from
your focus, that is, outsidepressure, and figure out ways to
cut them off.
What, however, you?
can so you can be more focused,you know, and when you're
cutting off those distractionsand just having a focus with
what you're doing.

(01:25:52):
I mean this is something,nathan, that you and I, I mean
I've talked about in my program.
I try and push artists to knowyou need to be honing in on your
feed really well, because youdon't know who's following you.
There are people in the artworld that will follow artists
for a year, two years, sixmonths, forever.
Never follow them, never like apost.

(01:26:15):
They're paying attention towhere you're going.
They're paying attention towhere your work is going and you
have a great example of that.
Oh yeah, I mean so very goingand you have a great example of
that.

Speaker 2 (01:26:22):
Oh yeah, I mean so.
Very recently I had a galleryfrom from munich that reached
out and and anybody on instagramany artists on instagram knows
that the overwhelming majorityof dms and messages you get are
complete.
You know bs and a waste of time, but you never know.
So it was, it was worse.
Uh, it's always worth theconversation.
I went on their page and lookedon their website and I was like
, oh, this is real.

(01:26:43):
There's artists on their rosterthat I recognize and got really
excited.
So we had that conversation andget on a video call and that's
one of the first things that hesaid.
It's a gallery called BenjaminEck in Munich where I'm going to
be showing this coming January.
He gets on and he says so,we've been following you for a
while.
That was one of the firstthings he said.

(01:27:04):
I immediately actually thoughtof you, because that's something
that you have said a lot, andit was just a good reminder of
like, yep, we're already to the.
I got ready to get on that calland be ready to tell my story
and blah, blah, blah andwhatever.
Put a pitch together about youknow, hey, why?
And but the work had alreadybeen done, like they had already

(01:27:24):
made it, you know, and and Irealized that after we, after we
hung up like oh, that decisionhad already been made.
They just wanted to know if Iwas interested in working with
them.
They had, because they had beenfollowing me for a while and
had seen.
You know what I'm up to andpresumably you know where I'm,
where I'm headed.
The intel had already beendelivered and received in a way
that advanced the conversationsignificantly I shouldn't say

(01:27:45):
advanced created theconversation in the first place.

Speaker 1 (01:27:48):
Well and I'm not saying abandon it, I'm not
telling artists abandonInstagram, because it is such a
fantastic tool for you to usewith a very hyper-focused aim of
putting your best foot forward,telling your story, showing how
you make work so that somebodythat may take notice will pay

(01:28:10):
attention and follow you.
Where you get into trouble iswhen you're constantly scrolling
and constantly worrying abouthow many likes you have, how
many followers you lost thisweek, how many people didn't see
it or might see it, and yourfocus is different.
That's what I tell all theartists that come in my program.
It's like listen, this is atool.
I have gotten so manyopportunities for my art because

(01:28:32):
of this tool.
In the positive light.
You're showing your work,you're showing your story,
you're showing how you make yourwork for those that may be
watching now or might bewatching in the future, that are
going to take a chance on you,because they've followed your
dedication, your process, whatyou've been doing, how you talk
about your work, and they wantto invest in you.
So just know I'm not makingthis up.

(01:28:55):
This has happened to me.
This has happened to Nathan.
I can't tell you how manyartists I know that this has
happened to.
So when I say take a break fromit, I mean take a break from
scrolling for four hours a dayand just looking at stuff and
comparing yourself and sayingI'll never be this or I might
not be this person.
Instead, forget about all thatcrap and just put your best foot

(01:29:16):
forward on there and think whenyou're in the studio, there may
be a gallery watching me inMunich.
There may be somebody watchingme in London.
Who knows?
There might be, there, could bethere, probably is.
If not, you might be inspiringsome young artists out there who
want to be like you.

Speaker 2 (01:29:31):
Well, and that's back to that whole idea of create
before you consume.
Yeah, that would apply toInstagram as well.
Whatever your time allotmentwould be, in your ideal time
blocking version of how muchtime you would spend on
Instagram in a day, I would saythat if all you did was not
spend more time on Instagram,but change the ratio of time

(01:29:52):
that you spend from creating orfrom just mindlessly consuming
to thinking about, you know whatyou're going to, whatever
create or or share, that wouldbe.
That'd be a worthwhile thing toconsider.
I mean, when you talk abouttools, I'm just reiterating what
you already said.
But every Tools have a specificpurpose for a specific use case,

(01:30:12):
and they have merit to be usedfor what they were designed to
be, and that is a portal to theworld, an opportunity for us to
get our work in front of theworld.
But it's when we start tomisuse tools for things that
they're not intended for, whereyou know, bad things happen.
When you start to accidentallyitch your thumb with a scalpel,

(01:30:32):
you know what you're going toend up with a multicolored, you
know bandage and some little bit, a little bit of blood loss,
you know.
So just using the tool for itspurpose, acknowledging the power
of it and determining how andwhen you're going to put it into
practice.

Speaker 1 (01:30:48):
And everything takes time.
Everything takes time and focusand allowing time to work
within your practice and notrushing, not trying to get
somewhere quicker than youactually can get.
And I think there's a greatquote by Rilke, one of my
favorite poets and writers.
We've referenced his bookLetters to a Young Poet many,

(01:31:09):
many, many times and he saysthere is no measuring with time,
no year matters and 10 yearsare nothing.
Being an artist means notreckoning and counting, but
ripening like a tree which doesnot force its sap and stands
confident in the storms ofspring without the fear that
after them may come no summer.
It does come, but it comes onlyto the patient, who are there

(01:31:34):
as though eternity lay beforethem, so unconcernedly, still
and wide.
I learn it daily.
I learn it with pain, to whichI am grateful.
Patience is everything.
Yeah, and that's I'm sayingthat same thing like with with
you.
If you had not have been justpatient and built out your
process and built out your work,shared the work that you felt

(01:31:55):
was strong on Instagram and toldyour story, and you were
patient with it and continued on, did not abandon the things you
were doing.
Somebody took notice andfollowed you.
It works in many ways forartists.
Don't give up on things.
Keep moving, keep moving,knowing that in art, 10 years

(01:32:16):
are nothing.
There's this Well.

Speaker 2 (01:32:20):
I'm sorry to interrupt, but it really is such
a nuanced conversation becauseif somebody took that advice or
that mindset to the extreme, onecould land on.
Well, I'm not going to shareanything until I've arrived at
my best work, which I would sayprobably isn't the best approach

(01:32:41):
either.
Right, there is a balance there.
You know, we talk about thisjust having this beautifully
curated, you know, uh, what'sthe, what's the thing for the,
the page, the profile?
Uh, you know, that's great, youknow, but it's not unlike art
itself, where there is, there is, um, there's benefit in sharing
what you happen to be doing,you know, right now, cause
that's what you're doing rightnow.
So, anyway, there's benefit insharing what you happen to be

(01:33:02):
doing right now, because that'swhat you're doing right now.
So, anyway, there's a balancethere, for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:33:08):
We all know when something's working.
We all know in the studio atthis point, when something's
working and something's goingright, we're on the right track
with our work and things arekind of oh yeah, I'm moving in a
direction.
Oh, I really like how thislooks.
Now, that's all perceived by us.
You know, when I don't know, dowe, though?
Do you not look at it?
Do you not have a work that youfinish?

Speaker 2 (01:33:28):
I do now, yeah, but I think I mean, but think back to
like for sure, but think backto think back to earlier in your
, in your journey.
Was that always true?

Speaker 1 (01:33:39):
for you, it wasn't for me In the moment I would
make a piece and go, oh, that'sreally strong, I like that.
I think that's.
And I think we have to have anair of confidence in ourselves
too, because you and I have hadthese conversations even early
on in your art making and you'relike, yeah, I think I like
where this is going, and I'd goI don't know what about these
things.
Let's think about these things,right.

(01:34:00):
So I think we need to haveconfidence in where we are today
as an artist, because we'reonly as strong as we are today
and so, but then I would go tothe museum or I go to a gallery
and then I'd go, oh, I got along way to go, yeah, ouch.
But me saying, oh, I kind oflike where this is going is

(01:34:20):
feeding me to keep going in thatarea too.
Yeah, and I think, yeah, theysay here on page 73 they
actually kind of talk about thata little bit.
I'm going to read that beforewe get to our closing arguments.

Speaker 2 (01:34:31):
He says when things go, really, well, it might have
been the most argumentative wewere going to get this entire no
, we got to find some moments.

Speaker 1 (01:34:37):
I challenge you, we, though.

Speaker 2 (01:34:39):
I challenge you I was I, you, it's dewy, though I
challenge you.
That was aggressive, veryconfrontational, sorry.
Sorry, jax, when things goreally well in your art making.

Speaker 1 (01:34:47):
All the pieces you make have life to them,
regardless of how they stack upas your personal favorites.
After all, they're all yourbabies.
It can even be argued that youhave an obligation to explore
the possible variations, givingthat a single artistic question
can yield many right answers.

Speaker 2 (01:35:05):
You talked about that earlier today towards the
beginning I did yeah, you and Iwere talking about revisiting
old things and revisiting oldideas, and so it's like that and
you talked about.

Speaker 1 (01:35:18):
Well, maybe there's a lot of variations in that idea.
Why give up on it so fast forthose little moments?
And so that's what they're kindof saying here is we have an
obligation to explore thepossible variations, giving that
a single artistic question canyield many right answers.
Not just one, but many rightanswers could come out of that.

Speaker 2 (01:35:37):
Boom yeah, Babies plural.

Speaker 1 (01:35:39):
Yes, Babies plural.

Speaker 2 (01:35:40):
Yeah, crickets Babies like crickets Babies plural yes
, babies plural yeah, crickets,Babies like babies, like like
crickets.
Yeah, babies like insectsreproduce not the way that that
human beings do, because, I mean, this is where it goes back to
like the work broadly, ourbabies plural are are precious,

(01:36:04):
yeah, but no one individual workis precious and if it's ever
going to be, it's not going tobe till much later on the road,
probably.
Anyway, yeah, you know what Imean.
So, so, not putting back towhat we talked about earlier,
not putting too much weight onon anyone, right, like I got two
kids, you put everything youcan into the human children that
you have, into those babies,regardless of the many times
when they probably don't deserveit.

(01:36:25):
But art is different in thatregard.
Each piece is its own thing.
And, to the example that I didshare earlier, a lot of those
were just set aside to sit andwait.
I didn't need to feed them andcare for them, they on, they
just sat and waited for their,for their time.
And art on an individual scaleis, is, is patient, you know it.

(01:36:48):
It will wait for its time, andI think that, um, I forget the,
the source of this quote, butbut I'll paraphrase my
recollection of.
It is something to the effectof like people dramatically
overestimate what they can do inthe short term and dramatically
underestimate what they can doin the long term, yeah right,

(01:37:10):
like I was talking about elan atsuey, he's 80 years old.
you know today and as I waspulling up images here as I got
lost a little bit of rabbit holeyou know most of the I mean the
work that he's best known forhis bottle top installations.
He didn't start doing until theearly 2000s when he was my math
is right whatever at least 60,to say what I mean.
I don't know what he did beforethat.
I'm sure it was probably prettygood, but it's not what I think

(01:37:33):
of.
It's not when I turn a cornerand I know immediately right,
that's the thing.
So anyway, the point is there'sso much to be said for patience
in the process and to what yousaid before just enjoying the
moment, enjoying where we're atright now, finding the little
wins, finding enough of thepositive feedback of the

(01:37:57):
conversation that I'm havingwith this work is complete and
it's enough to lead to the nextthing, well, and something just
as a kind of an ending idea,something that will help you
with all these things as havingartist friends, having an artist
network.

Speaker 1 (01:38:13):
We talked about it in quite a few episodes the
importance of having thatfriendship or that inbuilt
critique.
As John Baldessari once said,that artists need friendships
with inbuilt critique.
As john baldessari once saidthat artists need friendships
with inbuilt critique as acontext for the development of
their work.
If you look at the history ofart, all of the renaissance
artists knew theircontemporaries.
So did the impressionists.

(01:38:34):
There was a moment in theirlives where they were all
friends or acquaintances.
The cubists were not simplyindividual geniuses.
Their greatest works happenedin conjunction.
Who was Van Gogh's best friend?
Gauguin?
So just think about there's allthese things, these pressures
and this time and this slownessand this development and things.

(01:38:56):
What makes anything better inlife A cohort, a great friend
alongside you, a support system.
Some of us have.
It's completely absent in ouroutside lives, even where we
don't have that support system,where we grew up, where we
didn't have supportive parentsor supportive friends and things
, and there's something missingin that.

(01:39:19):
You need that, we all need that.
We all live for community.
Human beings are created to bein a tribe.
They're created to havecommunity and to feed off of
each other.
And so by having an artistfriend and having others that
have that inbuilt critique andthat ability to discuss and send
pictures of your work and whatyou're thinking and books you're

(01:39:39):
reading, and all those things,I can't tell you the importance
of, even if I don't respondsometimes, knowing that that
artist or that artist friend oryou, when I don't respond, sends
the video of the work, ofreally really working through
this today.

Speaker 2 (01:39:54):
You know and I will say hold on.
I will say so I can apologizein public.

Speaker 1 (01:39:59):
The way right.
A professional athlete or anidiot musician would apologize
in public.
Although I'm apologizing to youright now for not responding to
your video that you sent me twodays ago about the work, the
piece that you were kind offighting through, that little
section that you had outside butI have been off my phone as
much as possible.

(01:40:20):
I've been getting in troublefrom friends this week for not
responding to Instagram messagesand text messages and things.
It's because I'm literally noton my phone.
I'm keeping it in a room, I'mkeeping it hidden from me and
then at the end of the night Imay check something before I.
I try not to check my phonebefore bed because I read before
bed, but I check it in theevening to see if there's

(01:40:41):
anything I need to respond to.
That's the way to do it, but sosorry to everybody.

Speaker 2 (01:40:46):
I actually wasn't looking for feedback.
The preceding text from you washey, just going for a walk,
it's 73 degrees out.
I thought we were just sharingstuff.

Speaker 1 (01:41:03):
So I was just like oh , here's what I'm doing On my
walk.
I thought about it.

Speaker 2 (01:41:07):
What I'm hearing is you were blown away.

Speaker 1 (01:41:09):
I could, yeah speechless.

Speaker 2 (01:41:10):
I mean you were so overwhelmed with the power of
that word Speechless, I didn'tknow what to say.
Yeah, that's not true, that'sall right.
No, it's good.
I mean, it's funny.
You were talking about justsharing even just a funny little
example that came to mind.
When you're talking aboutsharing documentaries and
different, that to me is anexample of healthy competition.
When Eric sent the documentaryhe just got done watching and

(01:41:32):
said, hey guys, check this out.
To me I'm like all right.
I mean, in my mind Eric's not,he's not watching the game, he's
not watching some trash, he'snot binging whatever the show,
he's doing nothing but watchingart documentaries.
Now, that's probably not true,but in my mind that is a useful

(01:41:53):
belief for me to just think like, all right, how much, what more
could I In the rare momentswhen I am actually just on the
couch watching something withnobody else, which doesn't
happen very often but why wouldI be doing anything other than
watching an art documentary thatprobably nobody else in my
house wants to watch with me?

Speaker 1 (01:42:10):
Yeah, I do.

Speaker 2 (01:42:11):
So there is a competitive element.

Speaker 1 (01:42:12):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:42:13):
All right.
Even when I'm relaxing, I'mstill absorbing new ideas and
new inspiration.
Yeah, it's healthy.
I'm not trying to like, we'renot keeping score about how many
books did you read this year,this month, whatever.
But even just those littletouches back to your point of
you know, being in communicationand in whatever, having
community with you, know, otherartists there is benefit to-.

Speaker 1 (01:42:36):
Fires you up when somebody shares something like
totally 100%.
And uh, francis Beatty's got ashow coming up and Moxa's got a
show coming up and I'm going oh,I got to get to work.
I need to, okay.
Okay, they've all got shows.
Oh man, gianna looks like she'sin the studio every day
throwing sling and paint.
I got to get in the studio andstart throwing some more paint

(01:42:57):
around, and it's kind of justbouncing around.
Oh my gosh, what are they doing?
Okay, I got to do some more.
I got to catch up.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's healthy.

Speaker 2 (01:43:05):
It's good, absolutely All right.
It just feels like you know,sometimes I don't know about you
feel the pressure to like closeon just some like grand, you
know, piece of wisdom.
Let's just acknowledge likewe're done for the day.
Acknowledge like we're done forthe day.
This has been a long assepisode already.
So you know, hey, join us nexttime for uh, the third and final

(01:43:27):
part of art, and fear that weeven cite the book today by
David Bales and Ted Orland.
Part one is already available.
Part three will be our nextepisode.
Go get the book and read it andhighlight it, and reread it and
re-highlight it again.
Make your notes.
It's a, it's an absolute must,must read, follow us on the
places and check us out onyoutube, if you're not already,
if you want to see, you knowwhat we look like when we say
these words.

(01:43:48):
That may or may not be useful.
That makes sense.
That's helpful too, and ty doesa great job with the edit,
sharing uh, clips and b-roll andall that fun stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:43:54):
So, all right, that's a long ass that was bye here,
all right, see you next time.
Bye.

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