August 12, 2025 • 18 mins
https://justiceteamnetwork.com
On this week's JTP, Bob is joined by Spencer Wolfe, a seasoned JAG officer and lawyer with extensive experience in the Department of Defense and federal government. Spencer shares his journey from law school at Pepperdine to his roles in various military legal positions, including his time stationed in Korea and working as a defense counsel. With discussions on private and federal prisons, command authority, and the role of JAG officers, this episode provides a comprehensive look at the life and responsibilities of military legal professionals.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Hey, it's Bob Simon taking abreak to tell you about CallRail.
CallRail is a product that my firm uses,and what CallRail does is it plugs into
your phone calls with your intake and withyour clients to record those phone calls
as real time transcripts so you can getintelligence and with the attorney share.
Plugin, you can actually in real timebe able to send a referral out through
(00:23):
the marketplace to find the bestmatch all made possible with CallRail
being plugged into your firm's intakewith real intelligence CallRail.
Welcome to this episode of the JusticeTeam Podcast on the Justice Team Network.
I am your host, Bob Simon, and todaywe're gonna be talking to Captain
Spencer Wolf, who is a lawyer, a JAGofficer, worked for the department of.
(00:45):
Defense worked with the US attorneys,has wor multiple hats within the
military, is now going off intoprivate practice, but still holding
on to your career in the military.
Um, welcome Captain Spencer Wolf.
Thanks for having me, Bob.
Excited to be here.
Yeah.
Did I cover
everything
there with the resume?
Absolutely.
And, and, uh, I'll clarifya couple of points to that.
Yeah.
But ultimately, yeah, it's.
(01:07):
That's a fair summation.
Yeah.
So some of the things we're gonna cover inthis episode is what it's like to work for
the federal government, um, what it's liketo also represent human beings that are,
you know, within the process we're gonnatalk such things as, um, private prisons.
We're talk such things as federal prisons.
'cause Spencer wasthere for some of those.
(01:27):
Um, what it's like to.
Do secretive work yet?
Stuff that is open to the public.
'cause when you try a case there,it's all public record, right?
Still.
Yeah.
So a a all those cases have, uh, a publicrecord system have opinions that come out.
Have, um, there are many of the casesthat go through the, the military court
marshal system are up for automaticreview if, um, the person is sentenced
(01:50):
to more than six months or if theyreceive a bad conduct discharge.
Um, so they're, they're constantlybeing kind of forward facing.
So are you, I mean, so whatis your current role there?
Like what does, how does that work?
Sure.
Um, and I told you I had to do a, a,a little bit of a, a carve out here.
So I want to do that justas a, uh, disclaimer.
So everything I'm sharing here is aboutmy experience, but it's exclusively
(02:12):
my opinion and, and my, my viewpoints.
I, nothing that I'm sharing todayis a part, you know, is ascribed
to the DOD, the Department ofthe Army, or the Jag Corps.
Um, so wanted to, to highlight thatwe have certain limitations as far as.
Um, engaging in political speech orany kind of those components, but more
than happy to kind of talk about that.
Um, so my current position, so whatI've just transitioned, I actually just
(02:36):
left active duty on the 15th of July.
Received my DD two 14.
That's the official form, uh,indicating the stop of active duty.
And I'm in the process of inprocessing to a reserve unit.
Um.
I left active duty as a defense counsel,which is a role for a captain operating
as a, essentially a public defender.
Um, and I'll be doing thatsame role but for reservists.
(02:57):
So still logging my time, um, but itprovides me a lot of flexibility so that
I can continue to represent soldierswhen they're facing adverse actions,
um, usually on the administrativeside and make sure they have
representation to, to back them up.
Well, and
you went to Pepperdine Law School.
That's how we know each other.
At New Spencer, when he was in.
Law school, we were trying to recruit himto work for a firm 'cause he was such a
(03:17):
star and the guy went off to work for thefederal government to become a Jag off.
I, you know, it.
There were, there were so much about thelegal field that I wasn't familiar with.
I, I'm the first, uh, for my immediatefamily to graduate from college, first
to go to graduate school of any kind.
Um, and so I was really navigatingthe legal field of my own.
And, um, before I really got theopportunity to connect with you, I
(03:40):
did a summer internship with the lawfirm that I, I liked the practice,
but the environment, um, didn'tseem like the right fit for me.
And so I was looking for a team,um, team type of environment and.
I had been interested in militaryservice pretty much my whole life.
My grandfather was Marine, mybrother was in the Navy for 10 years.
I've got cousins thathave served all my life.
So I was always cognizant of that.
(04:01):
That felt familiar.
Um, and I kind of knew I wanted toget outta California a little bit and
explore and see a little bit more.
And my wife was willing tojump on that board with me.
So, um, yeah, I, I, I took a dive at that.
I thought that was gonna befascinating and it really
was.
Um, and you know, one of thethings we'll talk about with.
We've heard in the news recently in,in Florida where they have alligator
(04:25):
Alcatraz, where they're going totrain JAG officers to be immigration
judges to make quick decisions.
Um, I haven't been able to see anylike, real follow through with that yet.
But is that, does thatsomething that happens?
I mean, how does that kind of work within.
So after that specific utilization,specifically for like an immigration
court, that's not something that I'veseen before, nor did I really see
(04:45):
any action being directed that way.
Um, most of those decisions reallyget held at a much higher level.
Um, and then as it feeds downto us, um, we have to just start
familiarizing ourselves with.
What are our responsibilities?
Where's our authority andhow do we operate from there?
The closest that I can give you is as acaptain, if you're working in what we call
the ad law or administrative law shop, um,you can be assigned as a magistrate, um,
(05:10):
for the federal, for the military judgethat's assigned to your installation.
And so when individuals are seekingsearch warrants, you can authorize them.
Um.
And it's only exclusively to thosethat are subject to Title 10.
That's the Uniform Code ofMilitary Justice, and that applies
specifically to service members.
So it's in a narrowed scope in that sense.
So seeing them operate as immigrationjudges, um, while still in a federal
(05:34):
realm, much like the military courtsare, I think expanding out towards
having authority over civilians.
I haven't seen that.
Yeah.
And
you know, just turning thepage a little bit here.
Where I assume you've been stationedall over the country of world, right?
Sure.
I know you five weeks had another babyhere and, you know, juggling young
(05:55):
family, military career, being a lawyer.
Where have
you been stationed?
Um, so I'll kind of give youthe, the quick run through as far
as locations I popped through.
So when I initially joined, um,the practice for bringing on,
uh, judge advocates is, it'san abridged or shortened, um.
Commissioning process.
(06:16):
So normal college graduatewants to commission to be
a, an officer in the Army.
They have a 13 week basic course,and then they'll have their advanced
training, um, where they get trained intheir specialty for attorneys or they
recognize that, look, we are not gonnabe front lines, we're not gonna be in
commander positions leading soldiers.
We need to familiarize you so you knowwhat to do in the field and not get
(06:38):
in the way and not be a liability.
So we did a six and a half week trainingcourse out at Fort Benning in Georgia,
just outside of Savannah, um, where theyteach you land navigation so you can
navigate with a map and a compass andknow how to get to a certain location.
Uh, we had a, a. Week spent onweapons training specifically for
the, the M four assault rifle.
Um, so we had to qualify and makesure we could shoot sufficiently
(07:00):
enough to be out in the field.
Did you ever kill a guy?
I have not killed anybody.
Okay.
I haven't shot, uh, haven't shota live round at anything but a
piece of paper out in the field.
Um.
But it is really interesting 'causeit's not just, you know, like a
firing range that you would see.
It's, um, for that qualificationspecifically, it's you have targets
(07:21):
anywhere from 25 meters to 300 meters out.
You have.
I think it's approximatelyfour minutes to go through 40
targets in different positions.
You start standing unsupported, yougo into a laying down prone position,
fired a number of targets, transitionto a prone, supported on a sandbag,
transition up into a kneeling position,and then up into a standing position.
(07:42):
And so you're constantlymoving, changing magazines.
Um, but it was, you know,you get to play soldier.
Yeah.
For people that
are watching or listening, youknow, if you are coming in.
You went to law school, you're notin active military at that time.
You then turn that switch and I assumeyou're treated a little bit differently.
Not only going to an officer school,but also like psychologically with all
the other people that are, that havegone through the process of being in
(08:04):
the military and all of a sudden you'repopping up, oh, I'm, I'm an officer.
Like, how's that go down?
So absolutely.
And there's two major components to that.
One being an officer already.
Um, there's the dichotomy betweenenlisted soldiers and officers.
Officers are, are by the customsand courtesies of the military
provided a certain level of respect.
And so you add ontothat, that when you're.
(08:26):
An attorney who, so there's multipleways to enter the military as a, as an
attorney or become a judge advocate.
But the most common is directcommissioning, which is what I did.
I've completed law school, I got myselflicensed, and then I was brought into
the military immediately to be a ajudge advocate, they accredit you
with the time that you had in lawschool towards your time and service.
Oh, wow.
So I was credited for three years.
(08:47):
Um, towards my rank.
So instead of starting the firstofficer rank in the military, at
least for the Army as a secondlieutenant, um, I jumped that rank,
was a first lieutenant in training.
And six, roughly six monthsafter completing my training,
I was promoted to captain.
Wow.
So very quickly you're ina position of a captain.
It, most other officers have, um,four to six years service time.
(09:12):
They're already leading soldiers thatare in positions where they have.
Uh, thousands, if not millions of dollarsof property that they're responsible for.
Hundreds of soldiers they'releading and dictating.
And so people see your rank.
They don't know your, your job oryour branch specifically, and they
assume that you are in a positionof high power for other officers.
Judge advocates are constantlya point of, of counsel.
(09:35):
They're just, they're some that relyon terrible, you know, considerably.
Um, one of the things Ienjoyed about it is that.
For all of the special officers ofspecial branches that exist to help
leaders, help commanders make decisions.
Um, my experience was, or at least it'staught within the judge advocate branch,
we are the people at the table that willsay no, when you're surrounded by yes men.
(09:57):
Mm-hmm.
Um, and so I always appreciated havingthat opportunity to say, look, I, it's
not my decision to make, it's not my call.
This is your decision.
I'm just trying to inform yourdecision to the best I can.
And if you can't do it.
I can't say, oh, stop.
You just can't.
I'm gonna tell you all the reasonsit's a bad idea and I'm gonna
come to you with an alternative.
And so that was constantly the positionI found myself in that I enjoyed.
(10:20):
Yes.
But what was, I mean, I assumethere was some str, I mean, some
frustration that you probably had,for lack of a better term, you know,
representing, I mean, I'm sure you'veseen things that you thought were just.
Horribly inappropriate.
Probably some things that werevery good, like, can you just walk?
Because some people have no idea.
They're just civilians like I am.
Like, what?
(10:40):
What is that like, dude?
Absolutely.
So, um, and I, for a portionof of my time in service, I
actually taught a class, um, to.
Soldiers about understandingthe military structure.
So there's the common ones that thosethat are connected to the military world
or the the legal world are familiar withare trial courts or appellate courts
(11:00):
that structure the elements of a crime.
But there are unique military componentsthat if you're in the military,
you absolutely have to be aware of.
And that's, you know, offenseslike, uh, malingering.
If you fake an injury or anillness to not go to work, you
can be charged with a crime.
Wow.
Um, there's failure to report.
(11:21):
If you don't show up at the time we toldyou to in the uniform, we told you to,
we can charge you with a crime if youdon't go to your doctor's appointment,
which was your ascribed place of duty.
I can be charged as acrime under the UCMJ.
So common things that, that civiliansor, or you know, that those living
a normal life, you're like, dude,I missed a doctor's appointment.
Shucks.
(11:41):
It is what it is.
In the military, you'd seecommanders that understood.
Why did you miss I, my car broke down.
I couldn't get there.
I was calling, you know, my supervisor.
I was calling my my leader for helpand they know what was going on.
Okay.
You let us know.
We get it.
Stuff happens.
That's fine.
I saw other leaders.
Look, you missed twodoctor's appointments.
That means that we areputting you in for punishment.
(12:03):
And the, the wow, the means by whichthey could issue punishment, especially
when you're talking about lower enlistedsoldiers, you never see that be abused.
I assume you could, you
could, almost anythingcould be a crime, right?
That's, so that's the point is,um, or, and this is me as a defense
counsel, this is the mentality thatI had that that really started to
take over my latter time of services.
(12:24):
I watched Commanders say, oh,you know what I'm gonna issue?
It's called Article 15 Punishment.
So under the Uniform Code ofMilitary Justice, article 15 provides
commanders can issue a type ofpunishment depending on how superior
the officer is, the higher punishmentthey can impose at the lowest level.
A company commander, um, if you are of avery low rank, they can take your rank.
(12:47):
They can take a certain amount ofyour pay for the, uh, for the month.
They can force you to do extraduty or work extra hours, or
they can put you on restriction.
They can tell you you can't go off post,you can't go anywhere after work hours.
Um, so the authority that they have andthe means by which they owe to impose it,
somebody missed two doctor's appointmentsor they showed up late for PT at six 30
(13:08):
in the morning, two days this week, andthey want to take a week of their pay.
Wow.
And have these soldiers come to meand I say, look, help me understand
what is your financial situation.
Do you have a car payment?
Do you have a phone payment?
Do you have an insurance payment?
If your commander doesn't know what'sgoing outta your bank every month, and
that if they take this pay, you've,you failed to pay your bills, you, you,
(13:30):
you're now gonna lose your cell phone.
You're gonna lose your car.
That should matter to them, and that's,you try to make that, that persuasive
story of at least, look, if youthink I need to be punished, great.
Please don't tip punish me inthis way because it's gonna hurt
me so bad that I can't recover.
I had many, many commanders that wepitched that story to and they understood
and they would, they would match.
(13:50):
Sounds like you're
just doing a lot of like mediation,like it sounds like the commanders or
people higher rank could abuse theirpower, so they wanted to, but if you
made them understand the other stuffthat's going on, you could change it.
I mean, ideally that's would be the
Sure.
I, I think.
I think my experience hasbeen, and I, I, I would tend to
believe that you agree with me.
(14:11):
If I'm not standing in a courtroom,most of what I'm doing is mediating.
Yeah.
And, and it's mediating the, youknow, expectations of my client
or mediating the, the authorityof why for a lot of people.
And so, yes, these commanders, I couldsee them just firing things away and,
and taking action towards people.
Even when I was the one advisingcommanders, I had ones that wanted to.
(14:33):
Throw the book at people andI'd sit there and say, can we
have a conversation about this?
I don't.
I don't love actioning this.
I don't think it's good forthe people that you're leading.
It is, again, it's your call, but I'mgonna have a conversation with you
because I feel like it's my obligationand I feel like it's my job to try
and help put you in a better position.
I may not have as much military experienceas these leaders, but as somebody
(14:54):
who went into law school a little bitlater, worked in the real world has has.
Really tried to develop my,my interpersonal skills or
soft skills understanding.
How do you motivate people?
Well, yeah, I mean,
let's talk about where you, what youdid before you went to law school Sure.
And working on those inter person skills.
Like what, what were you doingto work on those inner people
skills before law school?
So, um, it was a lot ofthe restaurant industry.
(15:16):
Yeah.
Actually, I, uh, I bartendedand I waited tables.
Um, I got into the restaurantindustry at 19, after my freshman
year of college didn't go so hot.
I was at community college just trying to,to figure out what the next step was and.
I, I didn't love public speaking atthat stage, but you force yourself
to walk up to a group of strangers,Hey, how's everybody doing?
(15:37):
What can I get you started with tonight?
You do that enough and you startrealizing, you know what, it's not so bad.
We ended up at a, um, a bar one timein Westlake where you used to worky.
Yeah, yeah.
Remember that.
Um, but you, we were talking off air todaythat I think you drove, you were state.
Last station was Kansas.
Yes.
Sorry, I know you wereasking about stations.
Yeah, we always go
with because I apologize.
So, uh, so from Fort Benning, Georgia,I went to Charlottesville, Virginia.
(16:01):
Um, so it was actually on the UVA campus.
Um, the Army has the only legal center inschool in the military, so they have their
own permanent residence on the UVA campus.
I studied there for about three months.
Um, and then I got my first officialduty assignment, and that was to Fort
Bliss, Texas, uh, located in El Paso.
So West Texas, which workedout somewhat well for me as
much as it's a little isolated.
(16:22):
I had family there, my dad was born there.
Um, so easy transition.
Within six months I was asked to goon a rotational deployment to Korea.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so I was stationed in SouthKorea for nine months by myself.
My wife was, uh, left behind.
Um.
And she actually went back toCalifornia and stayed with family.
I completed that.
I spent another 15 or so months in ElPaso, and then I got my next change
(16:47):
of duty orders to Fort Leavenworth,Kansas, and I spent the last two years
that I was there at Fort Leavenworth.
Um, and then with the role that I had,I would bounce around quite a bit.
So I took cases at Fort Carson inColorado Springs, um, one at Fort Knox
in Kentucky, and then representingclients in a couple of different areas.
I traveled to Illinois once, um,'cause we just cover a region,
(17:10):
cover anybody who qualifies.
Yeah.
And I
recall you were, uh, working for, um,a person, well, defending somebody I
think in Colorado that was kind of therefor, they weren't supposed to be there.
Um.
Colorado?
No, he, so his unit was located there,that that individual was correct.
Um, that was just a, a, a unique,again, experience because I was working
(17:35):
with a civilian defense attorney.
The client had hired a civilian defenseattorney, but the army still provides.
Our services if they request it.
So I was working with a civilianas well as, as you know, having my
independent attorney responsibilitiesfor a client and navigating developing
a strategy with somebody that, thatwasn't, wasn't a military member.
(17:56):
Um, super unique experience wasweek long trial complicated,
uh, insurance fraud case.
Um, that was a great experience.
Very trying.
Hey, it's Bob Simon taking abreak to tell you about CallRail.
CallRail is a product that my firm uses,and what CallRail does is it plugs into
your phone calls with your intake and withyour clients to record those phone calls
as real time transcripts so you can getintelligence and with the attorney share.
Plugin, you can actually in real timebe able to send a referral out through
(00:23):
the marketplace to find the bestmatch all made possible with CallRail
being plugged into your firm's intakewith real intelligence CallRail.
Welcome to this episode of the JusticeTeam Podcast on the Justice Team Network.
I am your host, Bob Simon, and todaywe're gonna be talking to Captain
Spencer Wolf, who is a lawyer, a JAGofficer, worked for the department of.
(00:45):
Defense worked with the US attorneys,has wor multiple hats within the
military, is now going off intoprivate practice, but still holding
on to your career in the military.
Um, welcome Captain Spencer Wolf.
Thanks for having me, Bob.
Excited to be here.
Yeah.
Did I cover
everything
there with the resume?
Absolutely.
And, and, uh, I'll clarifya couple of points to that.
Yeah.
But ultimately, yeah, it's.
(01:07):
That's a fair summation.
Yeah.
So some of the things we're gonna cover inthis episode is what it's like to work for
the federal government, um, what it's liketo also represent human beings that are,
you know, within the process we're gonnatalk such things as, um, private prisons.
We're talk such things as federal prisons.
'cause Spencer wasthere for some of those.
(01:27):
Um, what it's like to.
Do secretive work yet?
Stuff that is open to the public.
'cause when you try a case there,it's all public record, right?
Still.
Yeah.
So a a all those cases have, uh, a publicrecord system have opinions that come out.
Have, um, there are many of the casesthat go through the, the military court
marshal system are up for automaticreview if, um, the person is sentenced
(01:50):
to more than six months or if theyreceive a bad conduct discharge.
Um, so they're, they're constantlybeing kind of forward facing.
So are you, I mean, so whatis your current role there?
Like what does, how does that work?
Sure.
Um, and I told you I had to do a, a,a little bit of a, a carve out here.
So I want to do that justas a, uh, disclaimer.
So everything I'm sharing here is aboutmy experience, but it's exclusively
(02:12):
my opinion and, and my, my viewpoints.
I, nothing that I'm sharing todayis a part, you know, is ascribed
to the DOD, the Department ofthe Army, or the Jag Corps.
Um, so wanted to, to highlight thatwe have certain limitations as far as.
Um, engaging in political speech orany kind of those components, but more
than happy to kind of talk about that.
Um, so my current position, so whatI've just transitioned, I actually just
(02:36):
left active duty on the 15th of July.
Received my DD two 14.
That's the official form, uh,indicating the stop of active duty.
And I'm in the process of inprocessing to a reserve unit.
Um.
I left active duty as a defense counsel,which is a role for a captain operating
as a, essentially a public defender.
Um, and I'll be doing thatsame role but for reservists.
(02:57):
So still logging my time, um, but itprovides me a lot of flexibility so that
I can continue to represent soldierswhen they're facing adverse actions,
um, usually on the administrativeside and make sure they have
representation to, to back them up.
Well, and
you went to Pepperdine Law School.
That's how we know each other.
At New Spencer, when he was in.
Law school, we were trying to recruit himto work for a firm 'cause he was such a
(03:17):
star and the guy went off to work for thefederal government to become a Jag off.
I, you know, it.
There were, there were so much about thelegal field that I wasn't familiar with.
I, I'm the first, uh, for my immediatefamily to graduate from college, first
to go to graduate school of any kind.
Um, and so I was really navigatingthe legal field of my own.
And, um, before I really got theopportunity to connect with you, I
(03:40):
did a summer internship with the lawfirm that I, I liked the practice,
but the environment, um, didn'tseem like the right fit for me.
And so I was looking for a team,um, team type of environment and.
I had been interested in militaryservice pretty much my whole life.
My grandfather was Marine, mybrother was in the Navy for 10 years.
I've got cousins thathave served all my life.
So I was always cognizant of that.
(04:01):
That felt familiar.
Um, and I kind of knew I wanted toget outta California a little bit and
explore and see a little bit more.
And my wife was willing tojump on that board with me.
So, um, yeah, I, I, I took a dive at that.
I thought that was gonna befascinating and it really
was.
Um, and you know, one of thethings we'll talk about with.
We've heard in the news recently in,in Florida where they have alligator
(04:25):
Alcatraz, where they're going totrain JAG officers to be immigration
judges to make quick decisions.
Um, I haven't been able to see anylike, real follow through with that yet.
But is that, does thatsomething that happens?
I mean, how does that kind of work within.
So after that specific utilization,specifically for like an immigration
court, that's not something that I'veseen before, nor did I really see
(04:45):
any action being directed that way.
Um, most of those decisions reallyget held at a much higher level.
Um, and then as it feeds downto us, um, we have to just start
familiarizing ourselves with.
What are our responsibilities?
Where's our authority andhow do we operate from there?
The closest that I can give you is as acaptain, if you're working in what we call
the ad law or administrative law shop, um,you can be assigned as a magistrate, um,
(05:10):
for the federal, for the military judgethat's assigned to your installation.
And so when individuals are seekingsearch warrants, you can authorize them.
Um.
And it's only exclusively to thosethat are subject to Title 10.
That's the Uniform Code ofMilitary Justice, and that applies
specifically to service members.
So it's in a narrowed scope in that sense.
So seeing them operate as immigrationjudges, um, while still in a federal
(05:34):
realm, much like the military courtsare, I think expanding out towards
having authority over civilians.
I haven't seen that.
Yeah.
And
you know, just turning thepage a little bit here.
Where I assume you've been stationedall over the country of world, right?
Sure.
I know you five weeks had another babyhere and, you know, juggling young
(05:55):
family, military career, being a lawyer.
Where have
you been stationed?
Um, so I'll kind of give youthe, the quick run through as far
as locations I popped through.
So when I initially joined, um,the practice for bringing on,
uh, judge advocates is, it'san abridged or shortened, um.
Commissioning process.
(06:16):
So normal college graduatewants to commission to be
a, an officer in the Army.
They have a 13 week basic course,and then they'll have their advanced
training, um, where they get trained intheir specialty for attorneys or they
recognize that, look, we are not gonnabe front lines, we're not gonna be in
commander positions leading soldiers.
We need to familiarize you so you knowwhat to do in the field and not get
(06:38):
in the way and not be a liability.
So we did a six and a half week trainingcourse out at Fort Benning in Georgia,
just outside of Savannah, um, where theyteach you land navigation so you can
navigate with a map and a compass andknow how to get to a certain location.
Uh, we had a, a. Week spent onweapons training specifically for
the, the M four assault rifle.
Um, so we had to qualify and makesure we could shoot sufficiently
(07:00):
enough to be out in the field.
Did you ever kill a guy?
I have not killed anybody.
Okay.
I haven't shot, uh, haven't shota live round at anything but a
piece of paper out in the field.
Um.
But it is really interesting 'causeit's not just, you know, like a
firing range that you would see.
It's, um, for that qualificationspecifically, it's you have targets
(07:21):
anywhere from 25 meters to 300 meters out.
You have.
I think it's approximatelyfour minutes to go through 40
targets in different positions.
You start standing unsupported, yougo into a laying down prone position,
fired a number of targets, transitionto a prone, supported on a sandbag,
transition up into a kneeling position,and then up into a standing position.
(07:42):
And so you're constantlymoving, changing magazines.
Um, but it was, you know,you get to play soldier.
Yeah.
For people that
are watching or listening, youknow, if you are coming in.
You went to law school, you're notin active military at that time.
You then turn that switch and I assumeyou're treated a little bit differently.
Not only going to an officer school,but also like psychologically with all
the other people that are, that havegone through the process of being in
(08:04):
the military and all of a sudden you'repopping up, oh, I'm, I'm an officer.
Like, how's that go down?
So absolutely.
And there's two major components to that.
One being an officer already.
Um, there's the dichotomy betweenenlisted soldiers and officers.
Officers are, are by the customsand courtesies of the military
provided a certain level of respect.
And so you add ontothat, that when you're.
(08:26):
An attorney who, so there's multipleways to enter the military as a, as an
attorney or become a judge advocate.
But the most common is directcommissioning, which is what I did.
I've completed law school, I got myselflicensed, and then I was brought into
the military immediately to be a ajudge advocate, they accredit you
with the time that you had in lawschool towards your time and service.
Oh, wow.
So I was credited for three years.
(08:47):
Um, towards my rank.
So instead of starting the firstofficer rank in the military, at
least for the Army as a secondlieutenant, um, I jumped that rank,
was a first lieutenant in training.
And six, roughly six monthsafter completing my training,
I was promoted to captain.
Wow.
So very quickly you're ina position of a captain.
It, most other officers have, um,four to six years service time.
(09:12):
They're already leading soldiers thatare in positions where they have.
Uh, thousands, if not millions of dollarsof property that they're responsible for.
Hundreds of soldiers they'releading and dictating.
And so people see your rank.
They don't know your, your job oryour branch specifically, and they
assume that you are in a positionof high power for other officers.
Judge advocates are constantlya point of, of counsel.
(09:35):
They're just, they're some that relyon terrible, you know, considerably.
Um, one of the things Ienjoyed about it is that.
For all of the special officers ofspecial branches that exist to help
leaders, help commanders make decisions.
Um, my experience was, or at least it'staught within the judge advocate branch,
we are the people at the table that willsay no, when you're surrounded by yes men.
(09:57):
Mm-hmm.
Um, and so I always appreciated havingthat opportunity to say, look, I, it's
not my decision to make, it's not my call.
This is your decision.
I'm just trying to inform yourdecision to the best I can.
And if you can't do it.
I can't say, oh, stop.
You just can't.
I'm gonna tell you all the reasonsit's a bad idea and I'm gonna
come to you with an alternative.
And so that was constantly the positionI found myself in that I enjoyed.
(10:20):
Yes.
But what was, I mean, I assumethere was some str, I mean, some
frustration that you probably had,for lack of a better term, you know,
representing, I mean, I'm sure you'veseen things that you thought were just.
Horribly inappropriate.
Probably some things that werevery good, like, can you just walk?
Because some people have no idea.
They're just civilians like I am.
Like, what?
(10:40):
What is that like, dude?
Absolutely.
So, um, and I, for a portionof of my time in service, I
actually taught a class, um, to.
Soldiers about understandingthe military structure.
So there's the common ones that thosethat are connected to the military world
or the the legal world are familiar withare trial courts or appellate courts
(11:00):
that structure the elements of a crime.
But there are unique military componentsthat if you're in the military,
you absolutely have to be aware of.
And that's, you know, offenseslike, uh, malingering.
If you fake an injury or anillness to not go to work, you
can be charged with a crime.
Wow.
Um, there's failure to report.
(11:21):
If you don't show up at the time we toldyou to in the uniform, we told you to,
we can charge you with a crime if youdon't go to your doctor's appointment,
which was your ascribed place of duty.
I can be charged as acrime under the UCMJ.
So common things that, that civiliansor, or you know, that those living
a normal life, you're like, dude,I missed a doctor's appointment.
Shucks.
(11:41):
It is what it is.
In the military, you'd seecommanders that understood.
Why did you miss I, my car broke down.
I couldn't get there.
I was calling, you know, my supervisor.
I was calling my my leader for helpand they know what was going on.
Okay.
You let us know.
We get it.
Stuff happens.
That's fine.
I saw other leaders.
Look, you missed twodoctor's appointments.
That means that we areputting you in for punishment.
(12:03):
And the, the wow, the means by whichthey could issue punishment, especially
when you're talking about lower enlistedsoldiers, you never see that be abused.
I assume you could, you
could, almost anythingcould be a crime, right?
That's, so that's the point is,um, or, and this is me as a defense
counsel, this is the mentality thatI had that that really started to
take over my latter time of services.
(12:24):
I watched Commanders say, oh,you know what I'm gonna issue?
It's called Article 15 Punishment.
So under the Uniform Code ofMilitary Justice, article 15 provides
commanders can issue a type ofpunishment depending on how superior
the officer is, the higher punishmentthey can impose at the lowest level.
A company commander, um, if you are of avery low rank, they can take your rank.
(12:47):
They can take a certain amount ofyour pay for the, uh, for the month.
They can force you to do extraduty or work extra hours, or
they can put you on restriction.
They can tell you you can't go off post,you can't go anywhere after work hours.
Um, so the authority that they have andthe means by which they owe to impose it,
somebody missed two doctor's appointmentsor they showed up late for PT at six 30
(13:08):
in the morning, two days this week, andthey want to take a week of their pay.
Wow.
And have these soldiers come to meand I say, look, help me understand
what is your financial situation.
Do you have a car payment?
Do you have a phone payment?
Do you have an insurance payment?
If your commander doesn't know what'sgoing outta your bank every month, and
that if they take this pay, you've,you failed to pay your bills, you, you,
(13:30):
you're now gonna lose your cell phone.
You're gonna lose your car.
That should matter to them, and that's,you try to make that, that persuasive
story of at least, look, if youthink I need to be punished, great.
Please don't tip punish me inthis way because it's gonna hurt
me so bad that I can't recover.
I had many, many commanders that wepitched that story to and they understood
and they would, they would match.
(13:50):
Sounds like you're
just doing a lot of like mediation,like it sounds like the commanders or
people higher rank could abuse theirpower, so they wanted to, but if you
made them understand the other stuffthat's going on, you could change it.
I mean, ideally that's would be the
Sure.
I, I think.
I think my experience hasbeen, and I, I, I would tend to
believe that you agree with me.
(14:11):
If I'm not standing in a courtroom,most of what I'm doing is mediating.
Yeah.
And, and it's mediating the, youknow, expectations of my client
or mediating the, the authorityof why for a lot of people.
And so, yes, these commanders, I couldsee them just firing things away and,
and taking action towards people.
Even when I was the one advisingcommanders, I had ones that wanted to.
(14:33):
Throw the book at people andI'd sit there and say, can we
have a conversation about this?
I don't.
I don't love actioning this.
I don't think it's good forthe people that you're leading.
It is, again, it's your call, but I'mgonna have a conversation with you
because I feel like it's my obligationand I feel like it's my job to try
and help put you in a better position.
I may not have as much military experienceas these leaders, but as somebody
(14:54):
who went into law school a little bitlater, worked in the real world has has.
Really tried to develop my,my interpersonal skills or
soft skills understanding.
How do you motivate people?
Well, yeah, I mean,
let's talk about where you, what youdid before you went to law school Sure.
And working on those inter person skills.
Like what, what were you doingto work on those inner people
skills before law school?
So, um, it was a lot ofthe restaurant industry.
(15:16):
Yeah.
Actually, I, uh, I bartendedand I waited tables.
Um, I got into the restaurantindustry at 19, after my freshman
year of college didn't go so hot.
I was at community college just trying to,to figure out what the next step was and.
I, I didn't love public speaking atthat stage, but you force yourself
to walk up to a group of strangers,Hey, how's everybody doing?
(15:37):
What can I get you started with tonight?
You do that enough and you startrealizing, you know what, it's not so bad.
We ended up at a, um, a bar one timein Westlake where you used to worky.
Yeah, yeah.
Remember that.
Um, but you, we were talking off air todaythat I think you drove, you were state.
Last station was Kansas.
Yes.
Sorry, I know you wereasking about stations.
Yeah, we always go
with because I apologize.
So, uh, so from Fort Benning, Georgia,I went to Charlottesville, Virginia.
(16:01):
Um, so it was actually on the UVA campus.
Um, the Army has the only legal center inschool in the military, so they have their
own permanent residence on the UVA campus.
I studied there for about three months.
Um, and then I got my first officialduty assignment, and that was to Fort
Bliss, Texas, uh, located in El Paso.
So West Texas, which workedout somewhat well for me as
much as it's a little isolated.
(16:22):
I had family there, my dad was born there.
Um, so easy transition.
Within six months I was asked to goon a rotational deployment to Korea.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so I was stationed in SouthKorea for nine months by myself.
My wife was, uh, left behind.
Um.
And she actually went back toCalifornia and stayed with family.
I completed that.
I spent another 15 or so months in ElPaso, and then I got my next change
(16:47):
of duty orders to Fort Leavenworth,Kansas, and I spent the last two years
that I was there at Fort Leavenworth.
Um, and then with the role that I had,I would bounce around quite a bit.
So I took cases at Fort Carson inColorado Springs, um, one at Fort Knox
in Kentucky, and then representingclients in a couple of different areas.
I traveled to Illinois once, um,'cause we just cover a region,
(17:10):
cover anybody who qualifies.
Yeah.
And I
recall you were, uh, working for, um,a person, well, defending somebody I
think in Colorado that was kind of therefor, they weren't supposed to be there.
Um.
Colorado?
No, he, so his unit was located there,that that individual was correct.
Um, that was just a, a, a unique,again, experience because I was working
(17:35):
with a civilian defense attorney.
The client had hired a civilian defenseattorney, but the army still provides.
Our services if they request it.
So I was working with a civilianas well as, as you know, having my
independent attorney responsibilitiesfor a client and navigating developing
a strategy with somebody that, thatwasn't, wasn't a military member.
(17:56):
Um, super unique experience wasweek long trial complicated,
uh, insurance fraud case.
Um, that was a great experience.
Very trying.
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