September 6, 2024 • 19 mins
Would you set your work hours from 7pm to 6am? This week, Bob interviews Mohamad Ahmad, a renowned trial lawyer with a bicoastal practice spanning from Southern California to Atlanta, and an international lifestyle including time in Jerusalem. Ahmed discusses balancing professional life with family, the intricacies of handling electric shock and burn injury cases, the challenges of managing litigation across different states, and the importance of thorough case prep for high-stakes trials.
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(00:02):
Welcome to this episode of the JusticeTeam Podcast on the Justice Team Network,
where we give practical advice to lawyers.
I'm your host, Bob Simon, and we arehonored today to have Muhammad Ahmed
coming to us from Southern California,live from Los Angeles, who also
practices in Atlanta, some other states.
He has a bi coastal practice.
He also lives internationally andsometimes the United States, sometimes
(00:23):
other places, which we'll talkabout how to do all those things.
And also being an amazing triallawyer, I know he's a finalist this
year for Trialer of the Year for thebiggest plaintiff bar organization.
Mo, thanks for coming on the show.
Thanks for having me.
Um, first of all, what, what,what's this shirt you're wearing?
I thought it was a hot dogcart, but what is this?
Yeah, A lot of people
think it's a hot dog cart.
This is actually a, uh,Jerusalem bread cart.
(00:45):
So if you, I live in Jerusalem, part-time,and they have these ancient bread ovens,
uh, like hundreds of years old, if nota thousand years old, where they cook.
Uh, they bake breadevery day in the morning.
My father in law and my wife areobsessed with this type of bread.
It's like sesame bread I'm not reallya big fan, but it's it's tasty.
So she got me this coolshirt in Jerusalem.
(01:07):
So
nice So yeah, that's talk.
Let's jump into that then.
I mean, I know your wife andkids are in Jerusalem You're
here in Southern, California.
Sometimes Georgia.
What's that like man?
It's fun in a way because youyou get to go to Jerusalem and
Jerusalem is it's it's a city.
That's locked in time You Yeah, likewhen you're there, if there were no
(01:27):
cars, you would feel like you're back,you know, from the ancient times.
And there's actually some villages inJerusalem and Israel and Palestine where
you actually can experience what it waslike back in the time of Jesus, where you
have like the, and if you go to Nazareth,you get the, there's like a Christian
village and they do this, they, they kindof, it's like a museum, but you really
(01:47):
feel like you're back in the old day.
They do all of press by hand and theyhave like donkeys and stuff like that.
So it's a throwback time.
So, It's a throwback to time and it'salso fun, you know, but it's also you
also miss your kids, you know So it's beenabout two years now not the two year mark.
That's when it really started being toughBeing away from the kids for so long.
(02:08):
Yeah, I just saw a missed callfrom my kids elementary school
I know there's a problem.
So I text my wife andsay They just called me.
It's likely our seven year oldthat's causing problems in school.
Do your kids ever causeproblems in Jerusalem?
You have younger kids too, right?
You have twins?
Yeah, no, they're nine and seven now.
But my older kid alwayscauses problems in Jerusalem.
(02:30):
He got caught with a vape at school.
Sounds very
familiar to what I just got.
Yeah, my
wife, freaking out, andI don't really care.
I'm like, whatever, where did he get it?
You know, that's funny.
Um, their kids, they'll,they'll do crazy things.
My younger kid, he, he initiallyhad problems with the school,
but then he became like thefan favorite at the school.
(02:51):
And so my wife will go pickhim up and he'll make everybody
stop the game when he's leaving.
And then my wife would be like,no, you can't be a dictator.
And the teacher would be like, no,no, he, we call him the director.
Like,
so how do you like, I mean, howdo you realistically do this?
You have a litigation and trial practice.
And you guys do some complicated case.
(03:12):
I mean, you, you do a lot ofelectric shock, burn injury cases.
And then, I mean, I've seen the verdictsyou've had, you know, eight figures, high
eight figures on these types of cases.
How are you able to, I mean,literally be what are they?
12, 11, 12 hours ahead inJerusalem from Yeah, there are
10 hours ahead in Jerusalem.
So I work on American times.
So when I'm in Jerusalem, I go to sleep atfive in the morning, six in the morning.
(03:35):
Sometimes I'll go to the ancientmosque, the Aqsa, the famous mosque at
like five in the morning, pray, comehome and I'll fall asleep at like 6am.
And then I'll wake up at likeone or 2pm there, spend some time
with the family, and then begin mywork day at like six or 7pm there.
Wow.
And then I'll stay up all night.
(03:55):
You know, because if you sleep, you can'treally sleep So I stay on American time.
And that's how I make it work.
But
so the, but you, how you still get familytime in though, before the, your quote
unquote workday starts back in America.
Mm.
Yeah.
So like you get four or five hours offamily time, which is realistically,
that's what happens here, right?
If you go to work early, you come homeat six or seven, and then you spend
(04:17):
two or three hours with the kids andthe wife, and then you go to sleep.
So it's kind of the same thing.
Obviously the, you know, the wifewould prefer that I worked on Jerusalem
time, but I just work on American time.
And with, with COVID you can take depots.
I mean, do you have
any problems taking remotedepositions from there?
No, never.
I mean, sometimes there's likesirens and shit going off, but
(04:37):
like other than that, no, you know,it's pretty, it's pretty chill.
And then what happens, you know,I mean, what's it like though?
Realistically, you havemultiple, multiple week trials.
I know you had one in NorthernCalifornia earlier this year.
I mean, how are you able to do that?
That's easier, right?
Because the family's not here.
So I spent six, it was last yearwe spent six weeks in Monterey.
(04:59):
And, you know, my business partnerwas flying home with his family, my
associate was flying home to spendtime with his wife, I didn't have that.
So in a way it kind of makes it easierwhen you don't have the family to
go home to, you just have trials.
So I stayed up there the whole time.
Wow.
You know, so in thatway it made it easier.
And then a month after that my friendgot stuck in a crazy small case in
(05:20):
Georgia and was like freaking out likehey, I talked shit to the adjuster and
I can't try a case, can you help me?
So we flew, I flew from Tel Aviv toAtlanta and we tried a case, you know?
Yeah, you have an officein Atlanta as well.
Yeah,
and so that, so that, that'skind of fun and also stressful.
You know, where you're callingand you're like, dude, are they
really not gonna pay the 25, 000?
And he's like, yeah, theyjust offered 10, 000.
(05:41):
So fly down.
So it's like, alright,jump on a flight, fly down.
But what was cool about that?
Cases they actually paid for my flightEven though it's not a recoverable cost
He he just included it in the cost memoand they got scared because we got over
the policy limit And so they just paideverything attorneys fees costs Everything
well, thank you state farmerall state whoever it was for
paying for your trip to tel aviv.
(06:01):
It was progressive Yeah progressive.
Yeah, you're also a very progressive guy.
So look at that.
We tied it in.
Well, no, so The the I I do say thisall the time as a trial lawyer The only
thing now that I physically need to be inperson for these days You Or the trials.
Yes.
Yeah.
And you're a living, breathing
example
of this.
Yeah,
exactly.
I was literally in another country,10 hours away, flew in, and then
(06:24):
within 48 hours I was picking a jury.
And since you're staying onAmerican Time, you're not
dealing with jet lag or anything?
Yeah.
No.
And then the one thing is that, youknow, with points and with status
and whatnot, I always get lie flat.
And so.
Yeah.
That makes it easier.
I think when you're sleeping on like, Ican sleep on the plane the whole time.
Wow.
Yeah.
So walk us through.
(06:45):
So we talked about a littlebit of the lifestyle stuff.
Um, do you have to operate on thesame consistent type of systems?
I mean, you have Georgia'sdifferent practice law than
California where you're practicing.
So how are you able to, to manage that?
I mean, you guys on, onsystems or anything like this.
Yeah, in terms of
like back end systems.
Yeah.
So what they're, they're very similar.
(07:07):
There are certain thingsthat are different.
Um, what we try to do ismake them the same, right?
So for example, in Georgia, you havetrial, you have fact depots and trial
depots or they're actually distinct.
Right.
Um, and in California youkind of have that too.
Unless it's like a doctorthat's unavailable or not.
So what we try to do is, is takewhatever exception or whatever
there is and make them the same.
(07:29):
And so for in Georgia, you can, youcan do a trial depo, uh, if it's,
you know, like the opposing party,you can use that for any purpose.
So we convert those into trialdepos instead of it being a fact
that, but we make that a trial thaton California, if the person's.
You know, like my Monterey case,everything was more than 150 miles out.
So every single depot was a trial depot.
And so you, you just try to makeeverything a trial depot and you
(07:51):
take a deposition like it's trial anddepots really lead the case, right?
There's discovery there's back indiscovery motions to compel, to kind
of bother them a little bit, butdepositions are, are basically trial.
And so we try to treat our depots liketrial depots, present them like trial
depots and use any excuse to make them.
Play that trial.
(08:12):
All right.
So that's that's transition over intoyour your trial practice litigation
practice and you're known for doingCatastrophic injury complex cases.
Let's talk about theburn in electric cases.
What are some things that I meana lot of lawyers prefer you cases.
Yeah to work on first ofall, how do they find you?
What's the easiest wayfor people to find you
you just you know email or text?
(08:33):
You know, I mean like I Idon't know Probably text is
better than email, you know,
text.
Yes.
I think I hardly check emails.
I check our slack chats on justice HQ.
I check my texts and that's about it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Even a voicemail.
Like I'm not gonna, I check my voicemail.
I'm like, Oh shit.
I got, especially sinceI'm always traveling.
So if I'm on the plane and Iget a voicemail, I normally
don't check my voicemails.
(08:54):
So I just get the
transcribed voice because there's noway I'm ever going to listen to it.
Yeah.
I know you call it.
I saw the missed call.
You leave a message andif it's transcribed.
Um, so.
Uh, walk us through what, whatwe're, what we're missing on these
electric shock cases, because a lotof 'em, sometimes they're public
entities against Edison or some ofthe things like, what are we missing?
The, the biggest thing people aremissing is that, is don't be afraid
(09:15):
if the symptoms are delayed, becausethat's when, you know the client
is actually telling the truth iswhen the symptoms are delayed.
And so, so, you know, the defense counselwill tell me like, oh, your client didn't
present with all these issues right away.
And I go, dude, if hedid, he'd be a fraud.
You know, unless it's like a supercatastrophic case, because you're going
to have issues with like seizures sixmonths out, you know, so if the, if the
(09:39):
client's presenting with seizures rightaway, that's abnormal, but, but six months
out a year out, that's, that is normal.
They don't know because with electricalcases, most people die, right?
So if your client survived, it's eithernot severe or it's super severe and
they don't know what to do with it.
I mean, how manyelectrical cases are there?
There's probably in history that, thatsurvived a catastrophic electrical shock.
(10:03):
And so doctors don't know whatthey're doing on those issues.
Doctors sometimes don't know whatthey're doing on a neck issue, right?
Like trial and error.
Yeah.
Well, like we, um, we had one electricalshock case where it was so powerful.
Guy lost his arm.
Yeah,
I mean, and you know, there's aI mean, that was one of the most
contentious litigations We had andwe resolved it for a lot, but it was
(10:24):
their hard liability cases, right?
Yeah So and I'm sure he had
a brain injury too.
Yep, but they disputed that andthey're like, oh, this is just an arm
case That's what they did in mind.
This is just so what
because these are very In me because alot of times we have electric shock cases.
It's usually a premises case of something.
Yeah Right.
And then sometimes there'sa public entity involved.
Yeah.
So walk us through the targetdefendants on these types of cases
(10:47):
and what things you're looking for.
So the, the target defendants, likeyou said, it's going to be a public
utility, which in California you need asix month notice in Georgia, you need a
one year notice or six months depending.
You have to file a claim.
You have to file a claim.
And in, in, in Georgia,they're very slick about that.
Like in California,they're more loose with it.
But in Georgia, they'll, they'lltry to evade service and be like,
Oh, you, you served it to my office,but you didn't serve it to my desk.
(11:09):
And that, and so it's.
And they'll file a motion to dismiss.
So whenever there's a public entityinvolved, you definitely want to get like
a high level technical lawyer involvedbecause you can mess those up very easily.
Then you also look at like, evenif they're not an actual utility,
they might be a quasi utility.
Like in our case, it was the largestmanufacturer of solar panels in the world.
(11:31):
And the largest generator of solarpower private, you know, so they're
effectively a utility, even thoughthey're not officially a utility.
And they, they, there's a lotof lobbying involved so they
don't get regulated as a utility.
Um, and then so you, you, you go to themand you find out, okay, what did you do?
And then obviously they try todisclaim liability, blame it on the
employee, because workers comp inGeorgia and California is a bar.
(11:55):
If, if, if the, if you can't sue yourown employer, generally speaking.
Um, and so that's whatyou're trying to do.
You're trying to find the, the bigentity, trying to define what they are.
Are they public or private?
And depending on what benefitsthem, they'll define themselves
as public or private.
If there's an immunity,they'll say, Oh, we're public.
If there's no immunity,they'll say, Oh, we're private.
(12:16):
That's where
you can't trip up and, You got tofile the claim form, be safe, you
know, yeah, you know, and that's wherelike a lot of people don't realize is
there's a lot of target defendants.
It's usually an employee that gets hurt.
I mean, every case thatI've had is the same way.
And do you have thatworkers comp crossover?
Crossover, yep.
And a lot of times if you can actuallyshow the employer was negligent,
(12:38):
you can get big reduction or getthe employee's medical lien waived.
Yeah.
And so in our case, the jury found thatthey were, that the employer and the
employee, my client was negligent orwere negligent because both of them, but
they were not the substantial factor.
So we got a hundred percent liability.
And that was worth, you know, the 160,000 medical lien, you know, like it's
(13:00):
like that, that, you know, if they got10%, it would have reduced the verdict.
How do
you prove that there was asurge of electricity that came
from the public entity and notan employee severing the line?
So.
So for that, what I would recommend isfirst, the lawyer needs to kind of become
an expert like in my office right now,in my actual physical office, there's
(13:20):
a, there's the box that triggered theinjury and, uh, and, uh, and another
for, for the most re for that case.
And for the most recent case thatwe just settled for five, five and a
half, nearly five and a half million.
I kind of recreated theincident in my office again.
Um, I think the lawyer needsto be able to explain it to.
(13:41):
to the jury.
So the lawyer needs to be the expert.
So for my Monterey case, I was thesmartest person in the room on that issue.
And the jury kind oflearned that right away.
Even though I'm not as articulate, Istutter like the defense lawyer was
way more articulate, less stuttering,more polished, but he didn't know
his ass from his elbow when itcame to the to the actual incident.
(14:04):
How did you learn this stuff?
I physically went to the site.
I went to Talk to my client endlessly,talk to other people endlessly.
And then, and I recommend you do thatearly on because then when you start
talking to third party witnesses, likewe interviewed dozens of third party
witnesses, they're skeptical, right?
They're like, who is this lawyer?
They have their own lawyercause it's the employer.
(14:25):
So they're represented.
But as soon as they talked to mefor five minutes, even the, the, my,
my co, the employer's lawyers werelike, dude, this guy knows his shit.
And so they all trusted.
me.
And so they would, they cooperate it.
And that's not, that's not alwaysthe case, but it took a lot of,
uh, time on my part, like to,to understand what was going on.
(14:46):
I talked to other lawyers,they helped me understand it.
Um, and just workshopping the case.
Like I, this, that casewas an example of teamwork.
Like Justice HQ met with dozensof lawyers and we talked about it.
Um, Cala lawyers helped me on Cala, GaryDordick helped me, um, . Sean Claggett.
Mm-Hmm.
. You know Claggett.
(15:07):
Matt Granda is on JJ hq.
Sean Claggett.
And Jordan Logan.
I spent a whole day withthem working on the case.
Dan Ambrose from TLU weeks withDan Ambrose prepping the case.
'cause Dan is like a freaking workhorse.
So he forced me to work on the case.
And then the Jerry SpenceCollege, like, it was literally
like a Jerry Spence verdict.
There was four of us from the ranch there,
(15:27):
you know.
Wow.
And you, I mean, what itwas, how big was the verdict?
Four 51 million.
51 million.
Yeah.
And you know.
You talked about the labor oflove, the stuff that you have
to do in the prep to get there.
Now, one thing you did was verycreative on, and it's very hard to
understand, is the damages in this case.
Yes.
So how did you work up the brain injury,the general damages for an electrocution?
So, so the, the way we did, the way wedid it is we, um, one thing I don't like
(15:51):
to use, I don't like to use lien doctors.
And so we used the workers' compdoctors to establish the dam damages
and you can usually videotapetheir depositions Yes.
As a treating doctor.
Exactly.
And then what I did is.
I used before and after witnessesand I even used the defense
witnesses to establish how badassmy client was to the project.
(16:12):
And I told the jury, I said,look, we're asking for, you know,
46 million in damages for Kelly.
I said, don't look at theday before the incident.
You know, I want you to look 18 monthsbefore when this billion dollar project
was on death's door and they calledKelly, my client to come save the project.
I said, this is how the phone conversationwould go 18 months before the incident.
(16:33):
Hey, this project is in the hole.
We need Kelly.
And the CEO says, get Kelly,whatever it costs, get him
over there to fix this project.
That's a billion dollar project.
We need him.
And they'd be like, wecan't, he's, he's damaged.
He's like, what's itgoing to cost to fix him?
46 million.
He'll say, write the check.
He's worth every penny.
I was like, that's howyou have to look at it.
Don't look at it the day afterwhen he's useless to the company.
(16:54):
Look at it when the company neededhim the most and he delivered.
And that's who he was.
Even the defense was like,we all knew who he was.
He was a badass.
And that's what a lot of lawyers get,you know, they think they have to over
expert the case, get a neurologist, aneuropsychologist, and I'm, I'm like
you, I think before and after witnesses,and maybe a physiatrist that can piece
it all together to meet the standard,
(17:15):
and that's all you need.
That's it, and that was ourmain witness, the physiatrist.
Which one, if you don't mind saying?
Topher
Stevenson.
Oh,
he's awesome.
And the
reason I like Topher is he actually cares.
He met with the client.
He legit cares.
He was a smoke jumper.
So he himself is a badassphysically What is a
smoke jumper
where they like go in and they I believeit's when they go in and they they try
(17:36):
to like Uh prevent the uh limit theexposure of the fire So they they get
dropped in they get dropped into like adanger site and they freaking she's yeah
So he's a legit badass himself So heand my client was a badass so they could
relate to each other I couldn't relateto my client my client could Bench more
than me even after the injury, right?
So I was like, we can'trelate to each other, dude.
(17:57):
I'm going to do Eve, you know,like, so we're not going to relate,
but Topher could relate to him.
But Topher is also a bad ass.
Yeah.
I think physiatrist is the way to go.
Treating physician.
He gave them, and he didn'teven do expensive stuff.
He did like this cream.
And my client's like,this cream is working.
I was like, so we don't need asurgery then, you know, don't
be afraid to do less medicine.
If the, if the damage is there.
And in my case, thedamage was clearly there.
(18:18):
Anybody with the, Even a blind personcould see the damage was there.
Right.
So, but it was just communicatingthat story and maximizing the damages.
Yeah.
So I know, um, I know how, I know howto find you by text or slack adjust
HQ and to find you on attorney sharedto refer you cases for those that are
out there, but how do other folks findyou if they want to get educated on.
You know how to how to have aninternational practice and family
(18:39):
or to litigate these tough cases.
How do they find you?
Yeah,
just hit me up or my businesspartner ray Uh rk at kermani lop
or ma at kermani lop and you know,we're down to talk to anybody.
Thanks Well mo thanks for coming onthe show big fan of yours Uh, this is
the justice team network justice teampodcast and he's the go to for these
types of cases Thanks for coming on buddy.
(18:59):
Thanks.
Thanks, bro
Welcome to this episode of the JusticeTeam Podcast on the Justice Team Network,
where we give practical advice to lawyers.
I'm your host, Bob Simon, and we arehonored today to have Muhammad Ahmed
coming to us from Southern California,live from Los Angeles, who also
practices in Atlanta, some other states.
He has a bi coastal practice.
He also lives internationally andsometimes the United States, sometimes
(00:23):
other places, which we'll talkabout how to do all those things.
And also being an amazing triallawyer, I know he's a finalist this
year for Trialer of the Year for thebiggest plaintiff bar organization.
Mo, thanks for coming on the show.
Thanks for having me.
Um, first of all, what, what,what's this shirt you're wearing?
I thought it was a hot dogcart, but what is this?
Yeah, A lot of people
think it's a hot dog cart.
This is actually a, uh,Jerusalem bread cart.
(00:45):
So if you, I live in Jerusalem, part-time,and they have these ancient bread ovens,
uh, like hundreds of years old, if nota thousand years old, where they cook.
Uh, they bake breadevery day in the morning.
My father in law and my wife areobsessed with this type of bread.
It's like sesame bread I'm not reallya big fan, but it's it's tasty.
So she got me this coolshirt in Jerusalem.
(01:07):
So
nice So yeah, that's talk.
Let's jump into that then.
I mean, I know your wife andkids are in Jerusalem You're
here in Southern, California.
Sometimes Georgia.
What's that like man?
It's fun in a way because youyou get to go to Jerusalem and
Jerusalem is it's it's a city.
That's locked in time You Yeah, likewhen you're there, if there were no
(01:27):
cars, you would feel like you're back,you know, from the ancient times.
And there's actually some villages inJerusalem and Israel and Palestine where
you actually can experience what it waslike back in the time of Jesus, where you
have like the, and if you go to Nazareth,you get the, there's like a Christian
village and they do this, they, they kindof, it's like a museum, but you really
(01:47):
feel like you're back in the old day.
They do all of press by hand and theyhave like donkeys and stuff like that.
So it's a throwback time.
So, It's a throwback to time and it'salso fun, you know, but it's also you
also miss your kids, you know So it's beenabout two years now not the two year mark.
That's when it really started being toughBeing away from the kids for so long.
(02:08):
Yeah, I just saw a missed callfrom my kids elementary school
I know there's a problem.
So I text my wife andsay They just called me.
It's likely our seven year oldthat's causing problems in school.
Do your kids ever causeproblems in Jerusalem?
You have younger kids too, right?
You have twins?
Yeah, no, they're nine and seven now.
But my older kid alwayscauses problems in Jerusalem.
(02:30):
He got caught with a vape at school.
Sounds very
familiar to what I just got.
Yeah, my
wife, freaking out, andI don't really care.
I'm like, whatever, where did he get it?
You know, that's funny.
Um, their kids, they'll,they'll do crazy things.
My younger kid, he, he initiallyhad problems with the school,
but then he became like thefan favorite at the school.
(02:51):
And so my wife will go pickhim up and he'll make everybody
stop the game when he's leaving.
And then my wife would be like,no, you can't be a dictator.
And the teacher would be like, no,no, he, we call him the director.
Like,
so how do you like, I mean, howdo you realistically do this?
You have a litigation and trial practice.
And you guys do some complicated case.
(03:12):
I mean, you, you do a lot ofelectric shock, burn injury cases.
And then, I mean, I've seen the verdictsyou've had, you know, eight figures, high
eight figures on these types of cases.
How are you able to, I mean,literally be what are they?
12, 11, 12 hours ahead inJerusalem from Yeah, there are
10 hours ahead in Jerusalem.
So I work on American times.
So when I'm in Jerusalem, I go to sleep atfive in the morning, six in the morning.
(03:35):
Sometimes I'll go to the ancientmosque, the Aqsa, the famous mosque at
like five in the morning, pray, comehome and I'll fall asleep at like 6am.
And then I'll wake up at likeone or 2pm there, spend some time
with the family, and then begin mywork day at like six or 7pm there.
Wow.
And then I'll stay up all night.
(03:55):
You know, because if you sleep, you can'treally sleep So I stay on American time.
And that's how I make it work.
But
so the, but you, how you still get familytime in though, before the, your quote
unquote workday starts back in America.
Mm.
Yeah.
So like you get four or five hours offamily time, which is realistically,
that's what happens here, right?
If you go to work early, you come homeat six or seven, and then you spend
(04:17):
two or three hours with the kids andthe wife, and then you go to sleep.
So it's kind of the same thing.
Obviously the, you know, the wifewould prefer that I worked on Jerusalem
time, but I just work on American time.
And with, with COVID you can take depots.
I mean, do you have
any problems taking remotedepositions from there?
No, never.
I mean, sometimes there's likesirens and shit going off, but
(04:37):
like other than that, no, you know,it's pretty, it's pretty chill.
And then what happens, you know,I mean, what's it like though?
Realistically, you havemultiple, multiple week trials.
I know you had one in NorthernCalifornia earlier this year.
I mean, how are you able to do that?
That's easier, right?
Because the family's not here.
So I spent six, it was last yearwe spent six weeks in Monterey.
(04:59):
And, you know, my business partnerwas flying home with his family, my
associate was flying home to spendtime with his wife, I didn't have that.
So in a way it kind of makes it easierwhen you don't have the family to
go home to, you just have trials.
So I stayed up there the whole time.
Wow.
You know, so in thatway it made it easier.
And then a month after that my friendgot stuck in a crazy small case in
(05:20):
Georgia and was like freaking out likehey, I talked shit to the adjuster and
I can't try a case, can you help me?
So we flew, I flew from Tel Aviv toAtlanta and we tried a case, you know?
Yeah, you have an officein Atlanta as well.
Yeah,
and so that, so that, that'skind of fun and also stressful.
You know, where you're callingand you're like, dude, are they
really not gonna pay the 25, 000?
And he's like, yeah, theyjust offered 10, 000.
(05:41):
So fly down.
So it's like, alright,jump on a flight, fly down.
But what was cool about that?
Cases they actually paid for my flightEven though it's not a recoverable cost
He he just included it in the cost memoand they got scared because we got over
the policy limit And so they just paideverything attorneys fees costs Everything
well, thank you state farmerall state whoever it was for
paying for your trip to tel aviv.
(06:01):
It was progressive Yeah progressive.
Yeah, you're also a very progressive guy.
So look at that.
We tied it in.
Well, no, so The the I I do say thisall the time as a trial lawyer The only
thing now that I physically need to be inperson for these days You Or the trials.
Yes.
Yeah.
And you're a living, breathing
example
of this.
Yeah,
exactly.
I was literally in another country,10 hours away, flew in, and then
(06:24):
within 48 hours I was picking a jury.
And since you're staying onAmerican Time, you're not
dealing with jet lag or anything?
Yeah.
No.
And then the one thing is that, youknow, with points and with status
and whatnot, I always get lie flat.
And so.
Yeah.
That makes it easier.
I think when you're sleeping on like, Ican sleep on the plane the whole time.
Wow.
Yeah.
So walk us through.
(06:45):
So we talked about a littlebit of the lifestyle stuff.
Um, do you have to operate on thesame consistent type of systems?
I mean, you have Georgia'sdifferent practice law than
California where you're practicing.
So how are you able to, to manage that?
I mean, you guys on, onsystems or anything like this.
Yeah, in terms of
like back end systems.
Yeah.
So what they're, they're very similar.
(07:07):
There are certain thingsthat are different.
Um, what we try to do ismake them the same, right?
So for example, in Georgia, you havetrial, you have fact depots and trial
depots or they're actually distinct.
Right.
Um, and in California youkind of have that too.
Unless it's like a doctorthat's unavailable or not.
So what we try to do is, is takewhatever exception or whatever
there is and make them the same.
(07:29):
And so for in Georgia, you can, youcan do a trial depo, uh, if it's,
you know, like the opposing party,you can use that for any purpose.
So we convert those into trialdepos instead of it being a fact
that, but we make that a trial thaton California, if the person's.
You know, like my Monterey case,everything was more than 150 miles out.
So every single depot was a trial depot.
And so you, you just try to makeeverything a trial depot and you
(07:51):
take a deposition like it's trial anddepots really lead the case, right?
There's discovery there's back indiscovery motions to compel, to kind
of bother them a little bit, butdepositions are, are basically trial.
And so we try to treat our depots liketrial depots, present them like trial
depots and use any excuse to make them.
Play that trial.
(08:12):
All right.
So that's that's transition over intoyour your trial practice litigation
practice and you're known for doingCatastrophic injury complex cases.
Let's talk about theburn in electric cases.
What are some things that I meana lot of lawyers prefer you cases.
Yeah to work on first ofall, how do they find you?
What's the easiest wayfor people to find you
you just you know email or text?
(08:33):
You know, I mean like I Idon't know Probably text is
better than email, you know,
text.
Yes.
I think I hardly check emails.
I check our slack chats on justice HQ.
I check my texts and that's about it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Even a voicemail.
Like I'm not gonna, I check my voicemail.
I'm like, Oh shit.
I got, especially sinceI'm always traveling.
So if I'm on the plane and Iget a voicemail, I normally
don't check my voicemails.
(08:54):
So I just get the
transcribed voice because there's noway I'm ever going to listen to it.
Yeah.
I know you call it.
I saw the missed call.
You leave a message andif it's transcribed.
Um, so.
Uh, walk us through what, whatwe're, what we're missing on these
electric shock cases, because a lotof 'em, sometimes they're public
entities against Edison or some ofthe things like, what are we missing?
The, the biggest thing people aremissing is that, is don't be afraid
(09:15):
if the symptoms are delayed, becausethat's when, you know the client
is actually telling the truth iswhen the symptoms are delayed.
And so, so, you know, the defense counselwill tell me like, oh, your client didn't
present with all these issues right away.
And I go, dude, if hedid, he'd be a fraud.
You know, unless it's like a supercatastrophic case, because you're going
to have issues with like seizures sixmonths out, you know, so if the, if the
(09:39):
client's presenting with seizures rightaway, that's abnormal, but, but six months
out a year out, that's, that is normal.
They don't know because with electricalcases, most people die, right?
So if your client survived, it's eithernot severe or it's super severe and
they don't know what to do with it.
I mean, how manyelectrical cases are there?
There's probably in history that, thatsurvived a catastrophic electrical shock.
(10:03):
And so doctors don't know whatthey're doing on those issues.
Doctors sometimes don't know whatthey're doing on a neck issue, right?
Like trial and error.
Yeah.
Well, like we, um, we had one electricalshock case where it was so powerful.
Guy lost his arm.
Yeah,
I mean, and you know, there's aI mean, that was one of the most
contentious litigations We had andwe resolved it for a lot, but it was
(10:24):
their hard liability cases, right?
Yeah So and I'm sure he had
a brain injury too.
Yep, but they disputed that andthey're like, oh, this is just an arm
case That's what they did in mind.
This is just so what
because these are very In me because alot of times we have electric shock cases.
It's usually a premises case of something.
Yeah Right.
And then sometimes there'sa public entity involved.
Yeah.
So walk us through the targetdefendants on these types of cases
(10:47):
and what things you're looking for.
So the, the target defendants, likeyou said, it's going to be a public
utility, which in California you need asix month notice in Georgia, you need a
one year notice or six months depending.
You have to file a claim.
You have to file a claim.
And in, in, in Georgia,they're very slick about that.
Like in California,they're more loose with it.
But in Georgia, they'll, they'lltry to evade service and be like,
Oh, you, you served it to my office,but you didn't serve it to my desk.
(11:09):
And that, and so it's.
And they'll file a motion to dismiss.
So whenever there's a public entityinvolved, you definitely want to get like
a high level technical lawyer involvedbecause you can mess those up very easily.
Then you also look at like, evenif they're not an actual utility,
they might be a quasi utility.
Like in our case, it was the largestmanufacturer of solar panels in the world.
(11:31):
And the largest generator of solarpower private, you know, so they're
effectively a utility, even thoughthey're not officially a utility.
And they, they, there's a lotof lobbying involved so they
don't get regulated as a utility.
Um, and then so you, you, you go to themand you find out, okay, what did you do?
And then obviously they try todisclaim liability, blame it on the
employee, because workers comp inGeorgia and California is a bar.
(11:55):
If, if, if the, if you can't sue yourown employer, generally speaking.
Um, and so that's whatyou're trying to do.
You're trying to find the, the bigentity, trying to define what they are.
Are they public or private?
And depending on what benefitsthem, they'll define themselves
as public or private.
If there's an immunity,they'll say, Oh, we're public.
If there's no immunity,they'll say, Oh, we're private.
(12:16):
That's where
you can't trip up and, You got tofile the claim form, be safe, you
know, yeah, you know, and that's wherelike a lot of people don't realize is
there's a lot of target defendants.
It's usually an employee that gets hurt.
I mean, every case thatI've had is the same way.
And do you have thatworkers comp crossover?
Crossover, yep.
And a lot of times if you can actuallyshow the employer was negligent,
(12:38):
you can get big reduction or getthe employee's medical lien waived.
Yeah.
And so in our case, the jury found thatthey were, that the employer and the
employee, my client was negligent orwere negligent because both of them, but
they were not the substantial factor.
So we got a hundred percent liability.
And that was worth, you know, the 160,000 medical lien, you know, like it's
(13:00):
like that, that, you know, if they got10%, it would have reduced the verdict.
How do
you prove that there was asurge of electricity that came
from the public entity and notan employee severing the line?
So.
So for that, what I would recommend isfirst, the lawyer needs to kind of become
an expert like in my office right now,in my actual physical office, there's
(13:20):
a, there's the box that triggered theinjury and, uh, and, uh, and another
for, for the most re for that case.
And for the most recent case thatwe just settled for five, five and a
half, nearly five and a half million.
I kind of recreated theincident in my office again.
Um, I think the lawyer needsto be able to explain it to.
(13:41):
to the jury.
So the lawyer needs to be the expert.
So for my Monterey case, I was thesmartest person in the room on that issue.
And the jury kind oflearned that right away.
Even though I'm not as articulate, Istutter like the defense lawyer was
way more articulate, less stuttering,more polished, but he didn't know
his ass from his elbow when itcame to the to the actual incident.
(14:04):
How did you learn this stuff?
I physically went to the site.
I went to Talk to my client endlessly,talk to other people endlessly.
And then, and I recommend you do thatearly on because then when you start
talking to third party witnesses, likewe interviewed dozens of third party
witnesses, they're skeptical, right?
They're like, who is this lawyer?
They have their own lawyercause it's the employer.
(14:25):
So they're represented.
But as soon as they talked to mefor five minutes, even the, the, my,
my co, the employer's lawyers werelike, dude, this guy knows his shit.
And so they all trusted.
me.
And so they would, they cooperate it.
And that's not, that's not alwaysthe case, but it took a lot of,
uh, time on my part, like to,to understand what was going on.
(14:46):
I talked to other lawyers,they helped me understand it.
Um, and just workshopping the case.
Like I, this, that casewas an example of teamwork.
Like Justice HQ met with dozensof lawyers and we talked about it.
Um, Cala lawyers helped me on Cala, GaryDordick helped me, um, . Sean Claggett.
Mm-Hmm.
. You know Claggett.
(15:07):
Matt Granda is on JJ hq.
Sean Claggett.
And Jordan Logan.
I spent a whole day withthem working on the case.
Dan Ambrose from TLU weeks withDan Ambrose prepping the case.
'cause Dan is like a freaking workhorse.
So he forced me to work on the case.
And then the Jerry SpenceCollege, like, it was literally
like a Jerry Spence verdict.
There was four of us from the ranch there,
(15:27):
you know.
Wow.
And you, I mean, what itwas, how big was the verdict?
Four 51 million.
51 million.
Yeah.
And you know.
You talked about the labor oflove, the stuff that you have
to do in the prep to get there.
Now, one thing you did was verycreative on, and it's very hard to
understand, is the damages in this case.
Yes.
So how did you work up the brain injury,the general damages for an electrocution?
So, so the, the way we did, the way wedid it is we, um, one thing I don't like
(15:51):
to use, I don't like to use lien doctors.
And so we used the workers' compdoctors to establish the dam damages
and you can usually videotapetheir depositions Yes.
As a treating doctor.
Exactly.
And then what I did is.
I used before and after witnessesand I even used the defense
witnesses to establish how badassmy client was to the project.
(16:12):
And I told the jury, I said,look, we're asking for, you know,
46 million in damages for Kelly.
I said, don't look at theday before the incident.
You know, I want you to look 18 monthsbefore when this billion dollar project
was on death's door and they calledKelly, my client to come save the project.
I said, this is how the phone conversationwould go 18 months before the incident.
(16:33):
Hey, this project is in the hole.
We need Kelly.
And the CEO says, get Kelly,whatever it costs, get him
over there to fix this project.
That's a billion dollar project.
We need him.
And they'd be like, wecan't, he's, he's damaged.
He's like, what's itgoing to cost to fix him?
46 million.
He'll say, write the check.
He's worth every penny.
I was like, that's howyou have to look at it.
Don't look at it the day afterwhen he's useless to the company.
(16:54):
Look at it when the company neededhim the most and he delivered.
And that's who he was.
Even the defense was like,we all knew who he was.
He was a badass.
And that's what a lot of lawyers get,you know, they think they have to over
expert the case, get a neurologist, aneuropsychologist, and I'm, I'm like
you, I think before and after witnesses,and maybe a physiatrist that can piece
it all together to meet the standard,
(17:15):
and that's all you need.
That's it, and that was ourmain witness, the physiatrist.
Which one, if you don't mind saying?
Topher
Stevenson.
Oh,
he's awesome.
And the
reason I like Topher is he actually cares.
He met with the client.
He legit cares.
He was a smoke jumper.
So he himself is a badassphysically What is a
smoke jumper
where they like go in and they I believeit's when they go in and they they try
(17:36):
to like Uh prevent the uh limit theexposure of the fire So they they get
dropped in they get dropped into like adanger site and they freaking she's yeah
So he's a legit badass himself So heand my client was a badass so they could
relate to each other I couldn't relateto my client my client could Bench more
than me even after the injury, right?
So I was like, we can'trelate to each other, dude.
(17:57):
I'm going to do Eve, you know,like, so we're not going to relate,
but Topher could relate to him.
But Topher is also a bad ass.
Yeah.
I think physiatrist is the way to go.
Treating physician.
He gave them, and he didn'teven do expensive stuff.
He did like this cream.
And my client's like,this cream is working.
I was like, so we don't need asurgery then, you know, don't
be afraid to do less medicine.
If the, if the damage is there.
And in my case, thedamage was clearly there.
(18:18):
Anybody with the, Even a blind personcould see the damage was there.
Right.
So, but it was just communicatingthat story and maximizing the damages.
Yeah.
So I know, um, I know how, I know howto find you by text or slack adjust
HQ and to find you on attorney sharedto refer you cases for those that are
out there, but how do other folks findyou if they want to get educated on.
You know how to how to have aninternational practice and family
(18:39):
or to litigate these tough cases.
How do they find you?
Yeah,
just hit me up or my businesspartner ray Uh rk at kermani lop
or ma at kermani lop and you know,we're down to talk to anybody.
Thanks Well mo thanks for coming onthe show big fan of yours Uh, this is
the justice team network justice teampodcast and he's the go to for these
types of cases Thanks for coming on buddy.
(18:59):
Thanks.
Thanks, bro
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