#259 Pat Flynn - 15 Years of Online Business Advice in 65 Mins - Kickoff Sessions

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Pat Flynn (00:00):
Within four hours it had 325,000 views and it was the
number three video in all ofYouTube.
It today has 15 million viewsand it has generated $72,000 in
revenue From just ad revenueJust ad revenue alone.
That is absolutely wild.
There's no real penalty inquantity on short form, which is
great, and I think that's whereyou win on short form is

(00:20):
quantity.
The past 28 days I just lookedwe generated on YouTube quantity
.
The past 28 days I just lookedwe generated on YouTube 14K in
ad revenue just from shorts andan additional 5.3K on TikTok
from the same exact videos.

Darren (00:30):
Before we start this podcast, I have one little favor
to ask you.
Can you please hit thesubscribe button down below so
we can help more people everysingle week.
Thank you.
Where I'd like to start isyou've generated over 10 million
in your journey across youronline presence.
If you were to really breakthat down, like what do you
think the components are fordoing that?

(00:52):
Like what is it that made youthe key person of influence,
build that authority to generatethat type of revenue.

Pat Flynn (00:58):
It didn't take me long when I started business and
this was in 2008, to realizethat the growth of your business
and your own success isequivalent to how well you serve
the audience you're serving,and so, along with that, you
have to know who it is thatyou're serving, what it is that
they need, what are theirobstacles, what are their dreams
, what are their ambitions, andthe more that you can align with

(01:20):
them, the better your resultswill be.
And so I learned that reallyearly on with my first business,
which was an architecturebusiness online helping people
pass an exam.
This was after I got laid off,and I remember and I wrote about
this in my book Superfans awoman her name is Jackie.
She was one of my firstcustomers.
She had bought a study guidethat I sold for $19 through

(01:40):
PayPal on this blog.
I created that just held notesfor my exam and started to get
picked up on.
Google and other forums foundit.
There weren't a lot of resourcesabout this exam back in the day
, and so Jackie purchased myexam guide and then, a month
later, she took the exam.
She passed, and she sent methis really kind note.
She said, pat, like I wouldn'thave passed without you.

(02:00):
I've been studying for a verylong time and nothing was
sticking, but you finally madeit happen and that felt great.
I like seeing that I've beenable to help people.
But what I didn't expect wasthat within the next three to
four weeks, I would see 25additional customers come with
the same URL at the end of theiremail.
She had gone and told everysingle one.
I don't know how she did it orwhat she did, but she got every

(02:22):
person in the firm basically topurchase my guide and she could
have just shared it for free.
But she just wanted me tosucceed as a result of me
helping her.
Because I helped her, shewanted to help me and I think it
was Zig Ziglar.
I later found out he has aquote that says you can get
anything in life you want solong as you help other people
get what they want.
So I've always made it thatServe first default to

(02:47):
generosity.
I'm wearing the shirt right nowand in some way, shape or form,
it always comes back.
It doesn't always come backright away, it doesn't always
come back from the same personwho you help, but the more that
you put out there, the more.
The universe just has this wayof reciprocating.

Darren (03:03):
That's kind of the logic around podcasts too.
It's the non-tangibles, it'sthe stuff that you can't really
measure.
And then six months, two years,four years down the line,
that's when you get your ROIPeople put into their minds.
They don't really understandthat.
That's like building theloyalty, building the community
base, building the customer base.
If you were to take thatexample specifically, because
you can connect really stronglywith your audience, especially

(03:24):
like your customers, is theresomething you think you're doing
that other people are not doingthat's allowed that person to
become a raving fan and turninto an evangelist and share it
with 20 people?

Pat Flynn (03:34):
Yeah, I mean, a person doesn't become a fan the
moment they find you right.
They become a fan from themoments that you create for them
over time.
So it's understanding the paththat they are on and you being
the guide to help them get towhere they want to go.
And it starts with small wins.
It starts with relatability, itstarts with speaking the same
language as your target audience.
From there, they might thenbecome a subscriber because they

(03:55):
trust you a little bit more.
They're not necessarily loyalfans yet, but they have
investigated what you have tooffer and they kind of like it.
So they might be a follower onsocial or a subscriber on your
email list.
And at this point you want totry to connect them with other
people.
Show that there are otherpeople like them that either
you've helped or that are theregoing through the same journey.
This is how you createconnection and this is why

(04:17):
people then become super fans,because they just get ingrained
and sort of involved in thecommunity.
When you get people involved,they get invested right.
They get invested in thinkingabout you, they get invested in
the things that you have tooffer and they want to go on
that journey with you or go towhere you are.
And more than anything, andwhere I'm focusing a lot now

(04:37):
these days, is community goingalong that journey with other
people.
And so, again, I kind ofbreezed over it.
But this is the structure ofhow you create a superfan.
It's by those moments youcreate over time.
And it's also about having anopinion.
It's about having personality,something that can draw a line
in the sand, very sticky pointsof view that aren't just like

(05:00):
trying to please everybody andthis was a very hard thing for
me to learn, because I am apeople pleaser, I want to make
everybody happy.
But if I try to pleaseeverybody, I'm not going to
create an opinion or personalitystrong enough for people to get
behind right, because I'm justkind of going everywhere versus
here's what I believe, here'swhat I am opinionated about,

(05:22):
here is where I think we shouldfocus.
And if you want to come alongthe ride, come along the ride,
and that's what a lot of peopledid.
I think the other thing was nottrying to pretend I was somebody
.
I wasn't.
When I first started out, itwas all about authenticity, and
it still is.
But in the beginning it wassort of unique to see somebody

(05:43):
share no-transcript teaching andthen also realizing over time

(06:09):
and this doesn't happen rightaway.
If you're a new content creator, you're not going to know the
answer to this.
What is your voice?
You can only understand whatthat voice is when you put a
voice out there and begin tostart to navigate how it
resonates with people.
And it took a little bit oftime but I started to realize
that I was just like the regularguy trying to support my family
, entrepreneur, teaching,business, not the Tim Ferriss,

(06:35):
you know Silicon Valley bro orsome internet guru who was
living in a mansion and hadLamborghinis and Corvettes and
stuff.
I was just like I had a soccermom van because we had young
kids and I was like I just wantto feed my family and have a
good future, and I think a lotof people resonated with that.

(06:57):
So all that combined definitelyhelped people connect with me
early on.
And then it's about continuallydelivering value, and I think
that's where I stand out amongstmany other people now, because
I've been doing this for 16years, since 2008.
And I've been consistent.
I've been showing up, I've beencontinuing to be authentic,
I've been continuing toexperiment, continuing to fail

(07:17):
and share those results alongthe way and many people have
come and many people have gone.
Many people have pivoted andI've pivoted too, but I've just
been always me, and because ofthat, there are people who will
go to events that I'm at just tomeet me, which is wild and I
still think is awesome.
There are people who buy newcourses that I come out with and

(07:41):
they don't even read the salespage.
They're just like oh, nextcourse from Pat Flynn, I'm in,
and it's an amazing thing.
That takes time, it takesvulnerability, it takes also
just understanding analytics.
There's some data and thingslike that that's important that
I know we're going to get into.
So, yeah, it's been a fun rideand still today, even after 16

(08:02):
years, I feel like I'm still inthe beginning of things.
There's new stuff coming that Ican get behind and get excited
about, and I think that's theother component of this.
Before I finish rambling isI've always tried to find the
fun in all of this.
It's helped me stick with itand I make it a game sometimes
to make it fun.
If it's boring, I try to playwith.

(08:24):
Well, how long is it going totake me and can I get faster the
next time?
Right, and I try not to comparemyself to others.
I try to compare myself tomyself last week, to myself last
month, to myself last year.
That's what drives me forward.

Darren (08:40):
Well, for you, it's really like a personal pursuit
and even though you're doingdifferent channels now and
you're trying different things,I would still say it's still the
same, because it's just PatFlynn exploring his curiosity,
sharing what he's doing well andthen sharing the failures along
the way.
And I'm being quite similar.
I've struggled to share thedownsides, because everyone
wants to be perceived as whatthey know, what they know.

(09:02):
So when you're you'reshowcasing okay, I don't have it
all figured out that'ssomething you come to grips with
, and I just released a podcastwith Chris Stowe last week and
his whole thesis is likeunderstanding yourself.
Like the second, you start tokind of understand yourself.
These are my shortfalls, thisis what I'm working on this,
what I'm working towards.
You can be completely open andhonest with that journey and I
think that's why I've reallyrelated to someone like yourself

(09:24):
, chris, eric Zhu.
These type of entrepreneurs aredifferent, so I've really made
this observation because I'verecorded 250 episodes.
I've met a lot of these guysand the guys that are playing
long-term games, or long-termpeople.
They actually play this gamecompletely differently and
that's why, for you, you stillhave the excitement.
It's 10pm in San Diego.
You're hopping on a podcastwith me.
That's the way you want to setthis up.

(09:45):
So even for myself, there's afew things that I could have
niched further down.
I could have been a bit morespecific, I could be more direct
, but it may have taken the funout of it and I may have ended
up in the podcast graveyard, forinstance, right.
So there's like a positive andnegative always to every
reaction along those lines.
Now I want to ask youspecifically about that
vulnerability piece, because Ithink that's what it's really

(10:08):
interesting.
I'm 28.
The people in my space that aregrowing really quickly.
They have that more authorityframe.
They're trying to projectthemselves in authority and not
showcasing their losses, notshowcasing that there's a can
improve.
How do you think about that?
Because for you, you've beenmuch more humble and they're
neglecting a lot of thedownfalls and, as a result of
that, they're not really they'renot really connecting with

(10:30):
people.
Does that make sense?
It's almost like they're up ona pedestal, as like Batman,
effectively, and everyone elseis below them.

Pat Flynn (10:35):
It's unrealistic, I mean.
I think that's the thing.
We are all human, we all makemistakes, and if you see
somebody who's just perfect,you're just like what's wrong
with that, right?
And so I think, I think I meanit's why I think, in Japanese
gardens they include a few weedshere and there, because it's
like if it's too perfect, it'skind of unreal, it's it's
unnatural.
And so I've always leaned intomy vulnerabilities.

(10:56):
They make me who I am, theymake me unique.
But I also also know mystrengths and I think it's
important to, as you sharevulnerabilities and as you
become more honest with youraudience.
If you wanted to share, youdon't have to share everything.
I think it's just important tohave some level of oh yeah, well
, that didn't work, and that'sokay.

(11:17):
I'm not perfect and here's howwe handled it Right, you don't
have to cry about those mistakes.
You don't have to.
I mean you could if that makesyou feel better.
But what I mean is like I thinkit's that there's a balance.
Right, you understand yourvulnerabilities, but then you
lean into your strengths, youlearn from those mistakes, and I
think it's inspiring for peopleto see somebody who they look
up to who also makes a mistakebut then bounces back from it.

(11:40):
I think there was a study thatwas done with like hotels that
hotels got higher ratings whenthey made a mistake but then
corrected, versus just likeperfect hotels, and so I think
it's important to be open andhave just honest conversations.
I think that's really what it'sabout Always being honest, and
that's what I love about thepodcast medium you can have an
honest conversation, you can bevulnerable and just just chat
about it.
Right, we're not editing thisother than like the cool videos

(12:03):
and stuff.
But like, the conversation isthe conversation, and so it is
what it is, and I think that'swhat makes us connect with each
other.
And I think that's now moreimportant than ever, because AI
is here chat, gpt, claude andall these things that can spit
out this information.
That once was valuable, it wasonce scarce.
Now it's at our fingertips andit's coming to us as if it's a

(12:25):
human.
So what are those things thatAI is not going to do and not
offer us?
Those are the things thatpeople will connect with,
because that's going to bewhat's left, that's human, and
those things are the mistakesand vulnerabilities.
Those things are the storiesthat we tell, wrapping that
information in a way that isimpactful, that creates emotion
in some way, shape or form, andthe silliness and jokes and just

(12:51):
the personality behind it.
Those are the things that I'mleaning into, I'm teaching my
students to lean into, I'mteaching my kids to lean into.
I'm like, okay, you want to bea coder, that's cool, but
ChatGPT can do that in a minute.
How are you going to bedifferent?
It's like we live.
You want to be a coder, that'scool, but like ChatGPT can do
that in a minute.
How are you going to bedifferent?
Right, it's like we live insuch a different world than when
I started in 2008, when it wasjust blogging and you could just

(13:13):
title something with a keywordand get traffic and then sell
something on top of that.

Darren (13:18):
It's so different now and let's dive into that,
because I'm in the exact sameposition as you that, because
I'm in the exact same positionas you, I think the podcast
medium is the counter argumentto the AI approach.
It's like everything is aZapier flow your message is
being responded, your AI agentand everything.
So this is bringing it back tonatural, more organic.

Pat Flynn (13:36):
Yeah, although have you seen Notebook LM?
Have you seen that yet?
No, no, no, tell me more.
Okay, so check this out.
There's a tool that Google cameout with called Notebook LM.
Imagine you're a student andyou take notes from a lecture.
You can drop those notes intoNotebook LM, press a button and
then it will create a podcast oftwo people having a

(13:56):
conversation to help you learnthe things that you wrote in
your notes, and it's almostdiscernible.
It just sounds like two peoplehaving a conversation.
It's the wildest thing.
So even podcasting, withinformation behind it as input,

(14:18):
is becoming even more human.
So, to take that even further,where you were going, right,
podcasting, we have these realpeople having real conversations
.
Now, even that's gonna be mixedin with AI a little bit.
So what are the things withinour conversation, like we're
having now, that will help usensure that we are connecting
with real people?
Because we are real people andit's the stories we tell, the

(14:41):
way we do it, our personality,it's the little inside jokes
that we have with ourcommunities, these little Easter
eggs that only people who arein our community can understand,
and these are the kinds ofthings that I'm developing with,
like my Pokemon community thatI launched during the pandemic
and it's just like become thisphenomenon of a community that
now involves live events withthousands of people flying in

(15:04):
and paying to nerd out onPokemon twice a year.
It's called Card Party.
We have two next year, one inTampa Bay and another one in
Seattle, and it's like they'regoing nuts because that human to
human connection is so real.
Anyway, sorry I derailed you,but Notebook LM is such a dope
tool, but it's also scary.

Darren (15:22):
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(15:45):
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(16:05):
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year.
And we'll dive deep into thePokemon community, because
that's the perfect example of aniche community of people that
are all similar, that all vibewith one idea, like everything
that you've been teaching people.
That is an example of youbuilding.
But before we get there, I dowant to dive into how you think

(16:25):
about your podcast specificallynow in terms of is it still
natural to you?
In terms of like, are you stillkeeping it organic like this,
or have you?
Or what do you think about,like the YouTube approach, which
is, you know, super edited,almost a controversial, almost
there to catch guests, almostthere to it's just, it's like I
call it a reality TV show.
So I'm trying to go counter toall of this, counter to all the

(16:49):
AI approach, because I see theindustry of podcasting becoming
honestly like a reality TV showand that's the reason why I'm
putting a very hard foot on theother approach.

Pat Flynn (16:57):
There's room for all of it.
I think there are people whojust love watching reality TV we
know this and there's a spacefor that but there's also people
who hate that and want the realinformation from real people,
and I think that, no matterwhich method you choose, I think
the idea is how can you createthe best version of that for the

(17:18):
content that you have in theaudience that you're trying to
build?
So you know, I think there'sthere's room for that.
But the video the video stuff'sinteresting.
We're actually going to startexperimenting with that in 2025,
to be honest, because the reachopportunity on YouTube is so
much bigger than the silo ofjust Apple podcasts and Spotify.
Um, it's going to be anexperiment.

(17:40):
It could completely fail, butwe are going to dedicate three
months of resources to it to seeif it works or not, and I feel
like the conversations are goingto be similar, but, knowing
it's on video, it might change alittle bit.
Definitely, the hooks at thebeginning are going to be way
more important On YouTube.
You have to hook people withinthe first three seconds or

(18:01):
you're done, which is why yousee podcasts like Diary of a CEO
.
The first minute is like aNetflix trailer.
It's like you're getting allthese little hints of things
that are coming and then halfsentences that you're like, wait
, what was he going to say?
And you have to watch.
And it's almost like, in a way,because of short form content

(18:22):
and what it's done to our brainsand our attention spans.
It's almost like in order toget a person to commit to long
form, you gotta short form gettheir interest in the beginning,
right.
And so it's like there'sanother person, Ramit Sethi, who
does this really well.
He's the only person I've seenwho's done a really successful
remote podcast, but on YouTube.

(18:46):
And it's because he spends aminute in the beginning talking
about what's about to go downand he interviews couples and
their money problems and he getsreal and so he'll show tidbits
and parts and like a womancrying and the man getting upset
and like all this stuff andyou're like, okay, I have to
watch this now, right.
Whereas before, when I startedpodcasting in 2010, you could

(19:07):
talk for five minutes in thebeginning about your breakfast
and you'd be fine because therewas nothing else to listen to.
Now, I mean, podcastingtechnically is still early, in
my opinion, with the number ofpodcasts that are active.
I mean it's just about amillion now that are active,
which is nothing in comparisonto how many blogs there are,
YouTube channels or anything ofpodcasts that are active.
I mean it's just about amillion now that are active,
which is nothing in comparisonto how many blogs there are,
YouTube channels or anything,but it's just a different medium

(19:29):
.
But once you get a person in,whether it's video or audio, you
can build incredible loyaltybecause you're going deeper and
that's something that people arecraving.
Certain people are cravingdeeper today, deeper, more real,
and it's our job as podcasthosts to not just ask surface

(19:49):
level questions.
And I think already I can tellyou're really good at this
because you are going deeperinto the topics we're talking
about, versus just the samequestions in every episode and
just kind of the same old thing.
I mean, I think the gold liesdeep and you have to dig for it.

Darren (20:05):
And I'm happy to offer some like insight on this too,
because I guess the guys thatI've been interviewing are the
guys that you know get a lot ofrequests and a lot of them say
that on YouTube especially,they're getting caught out,
they're going on these shows andguys are trying to catch them
out hosts.
So I kind of say beforehand I'mlike hey, this isn't an FBI

(20:28):
interrogation, I'm not here tocatch you out.
You know we're gonna have fun.
I just say that like, basically, I'm not gonna ask you the same
seven questions that you'regonna be asked and they just you
can see the relief they're likeand this happens like very,
very frequently.
So the way I kind of think aboutthis is the fact that we
actually doubled down on YouTubebecause of the reach component,
because personal, you know, mypersonal experience was audio
was so hard to grow organically,probably because I didn't
really know the components,whereas on YouTube in 2020, 2021

(20:51):
, it just well.
2022, especially, it just kindof flung really well Introducing
introduction of short form.
The conversion mechanism fromshort to long form obviously
wasn't amazing, but it just gavetop of funnel to give that
appreciation and then peoplewould consume when they're
cleaning their car in the gymand so on.
So on audio.
So it just felt like a verystrong pursuit and I guess I was

(21:12):
a little bit early on that.
So that's the reason why wedoubled down on.
We're just doing video for alot of people video podcasts, so
you would recommend that.

Pat Flynn (21:18):
That was kind of an interest Today.

Darren (21:25):
Oh, 100%, 100, but.
But there's a.
There's an element of uh,complexity though, so this was
where it gets a little bit.
Interesting is the fact that,um, so I, we have been really
focused on entrepreneurs,because they just kind of see it
much more of like a long-termapproach versus like a quick win
.
So the logic here from myperspective was, like on youtube
, we need to simplify everythingas much as possible.
So if you're in in New York orSan Diego or LA, just go into
the studio, get a studiorecording, because it's so

(21:48):
difficult to set everything elseup, there's so much friction.
So it's almost like how do weeliminate friction If you have
the budget?
If you don't, completely fineright.
But it was about putting thosecomponents in place to allow
someone to go in and record,maybe twice, once a month for
two episodes, and then the next30 days is a continuation of
improving those episodes,releasing those episodes,

(22:09):
refining them, writingnewsletters, writing individual
posts and going back to what youwere saying earlier about
people recognize you for yoursmall nuances in your tonality
and whatnot.
What I've observed is whenpeople go on guest podcasts, the
host will therefore re-quotetheir nuances to them.
So something I always talkabout is like the infinite game.

(22:30):
So if I ever go on a guestpodcast, people always say the
same things that I always sayback to them.
I think that's what's importantis, you build up those key
moments effectively and I think,through youtube and through
short form, that that becomesjust easier.
It just becomes a lot easier toget that traction top of funnel
.

Pat Flynn (22:47):
For sure and you can use short form and social to
test right.
There's no real penalty inquantity on short form, which is
great, and I think that's whereyou win on short form is
quantity.
I mean I've been seeing on anew shorts channel again in the
Pokemon space posting daily.
I mean I've been seeing it on anew Shorts channel again in the
Pokemon space posting daily andit's across three short-form
channels.
We've had in the last 28 days150 million views.

(23:08):
It's absolutely wild.
But in the beginning first 20days it was crickets and then
just took off on all threeplatforms.

Darren (23:19):
I don't think that's you , though.
I think that's actually YouTube, though warming to content and
finding your avatar.
I don't think that's you,though.
I think that's actually YouTube, though warming to content and
finding your avatar, like, Idon't think that's a you problem
though.

Pat Flynn (23:27):
No, I mean, I just knew it just would take time.
That's why I didn't give up onday 19.
I was just like I'm going tosee this through for three
months.
Three months is usually theamount of time I give something
to like really test it and testany algorithms or anything like
this.
I used the same approach whenit was like SEO was like a thing
it still is a thing, but likeit used to be that thing if you

(23:48):
were just blogging.
So three months saw someresults within the first couple
of weeks, and then now just thatShorts channel alone is, you
know, we're monetized on YouTube, we're monetized on TikTok.
What's interesting is thosevideos.
Now on YouTube you can haveshorts that are longer than 60
seconds, but for the longesttime it was under 60 seconds.
So I would film for YouTube.

(24:08):
Videos would be 57, 58 secondsand I'd extend it two seconds at
the end or like slow somethingdown by 0.9 X just to reach a
minute so that I can monetize onTikTok.
Same video, just a part is alittle bit slower, so it can get
over a minute so that you canget monetized on TikTok.
And so the past 28 days I justlooked we generated on YouTube

(24:33):
14K in ad revenue just fromshorts and an additional 5.3K on
TikTok from the same exactvideos and zero on Instagram
because you had to begrandfathered into the
feed-based monetization onInstagram from a while back.
Now it's just likesubscriptions and GIFs, which I
don't get any of that.

(24:53):
But the Instagram following isgrowing.
But that's just the Shortschannel and it's interesting
because I was so against Shortsfor so long because I was like
you can't build a loyal audienceon it Like long against shorts
for so long because I was likeyou can't build a loyal audience
on it Like longs all the way,like longs build long
relationships.
And I compared it to Halloweencandy, right?
Shorts are just handing outcandy at Halloween and the kids

(25:14):
go to the next door and theydon't even remember you, right?

Darren (25:17):
That's what it was.

Pat Flynn (25:18):
But now I still agree that long form is better and
CPMs and RPMs are much, muchhigher.
You can build long formrelationships there, but you can
also do it on shorts.
If you show up every day andbecome a part of a person's life
and you're not just creatingrandom videos, you create some
series that people can expectevery day.
And now when I post it'sinteresting because I post at

(25:40):
8.30 PM Pacific time at nighthere In the beginning as soon as
I post, it's interestingbecause I post at 8.30 pm
Pacific time at night here Inthe beginning as soon as I post,
probably within two minutesI'll see at least 100 comments.
25% of them say oh, I can go tosleep now, I've been waiting for
this and I can go to sleep.
It's literally a part of theirdaily routine and so I've become

(26:01):
a part of their daily life andso I've become a part of their
daily life.
As a result, and because I'mshowing up daily, it's day 107.
Today, episode 107 came outLike okay, those minutes add up
just like one long form video.
And it's insane now because Ifor those short videos.

(26:21):
I know I'm just kind ofbouncing around, so I apologize,
but no, I like I'm just kind ofbouncing around, so I apologize
.

Darren (26:24):
No, I like the idea, I like the talk process.
Work ahead.

Pat Flynn (26:27):
Yeah, so on the shorts, I hired Music Radio
Creative, which is a greatcompany.
You can buy jingles from themand they have a real human being
on their end that they findthat fits whatever you're asking
for.
They do podcast jingles and allthis stuff.
If you don't know them, youshould know them.
I can connect you to Mike andIsabella.
They're great.
They supply a lot of audio formy own students as well.

(26:48):
But I hired them to do a jingle,and this jingle was in the
format of like a almost like acommercial jingle.
It's like should I open it orshould I keep it sealed?
And that's at the beginning ofevery episode.
It's just like one second, butit poses a question Should I
open it, this pack of Pokemon,or should I keep it sealed?

(27:08):
And so it poses a question.
You need to know the answer.
So you wait to the end of thevideo, because I opened most of
them and you see the value inwhether or not I actually got a
good card or not.
And at the end, depending onwhat I got, it's like oh no, you
should have kept it sealed, oryay, you actually got something

(27:29):
good.
And it's literally the samejingles every time.
Now people are saying thatthey're commenting my jingle on
other people's videos.
Now they're saying it in storeswhen they're opening packs,
because the store owners willtell me that people are singing
it and it's just become a partof the culture of Pokemon.

(27:49):
Now, this phrase that I've madeand it's it's just so crazy how
this happened.

Darren (27:55):
Why is that?
We have to break that down.
We have to break that downCommunity, the retention, like
the coming back, like the, thethousand true fans that do come
back to your episode.
Because I would think that onshort form, it would only be a
younger demographic.
This is just completelyassumption based, but because
they kind of grew up with shortform versus like an older
demographic, whereas for you, Iguess your audience in a pokemon

(28:15):
niche and this is sointeresting this is the best
example ever.
So you've long form for short,for Pokemon niche, you've short
form and even million, evenmillion, yeah, and even million
subscribers, okay.
So first question is why arethey not, why are they not on
one channel?

Pat Flynn (28:29):
So I had shorts on Deep Pocket Monster to begin
with, but it was attracting thewrong audience it was.
It was going, it was going tomainstream.
And I know that might soundweird, but I did a video where I
opened a pack and it was like abad card and eventually it got
15 million views.
Like 98 of the comments arelike why is a grown man opening

(28:54):
pokemon cards get a job?
This is stupid.
You deserve to lose money likeall this stuff.
That was like obviously peoplejust flipping through and the
algorithm pushed these videosout, so that was not translating
to long form views at all.
It was like it was not working.
So we stopped shorts and wejust focused on longs and then

(29:15):
we really leaned into it.
We started to dig into theanalytics.
We used to do these mystery boxopenings where I'd buy a
multi-hundred dollar box on eBay.
I didn't know what was insideand I'd open it.
That concept was pretty good,right, because it's like oh,
what's inside?
And we go see and we see if wegot the value back.
And we started to notice thatafter a few of them, looking at
the retention graphs, that therewere a few moments where the

(29:39):
retention graphs were flat andthat means you're holding
people's attention right, it'snot going down.
And we noticed that what wasflat was when I would buy these
mystery boxes and there was abinder inside like a folder with
Pokemon cards, and we're like,oh my gosh, it's interesting
what would happen if we did avideo where we just bought
binders, like I'm gonna buy twobinders and compare them and

(30:03):
it's like, not a mystery box,but I'm just buying binders.
So we did that and it was theflattest line we've ever seen on
our channel up to that date.
And that video saw over amillion views and we're like,
whoa, this is crazy.
And then we started toexperiment.
We said, okay, well, what wouldhappen if we filmed the video
trying to fill up a binder andfinish a set, like, let's keep

(30:24):
the binder idea, but how can wemake it more interesting?
Well, let's start with it emptyand see if we could fill it up
and complete a set within acertain amount of time.
So there was a set calledbrilliant stars.
I tried to finish it in 24hours.
So I like gave, I like tooktime off work and everything to
try to finish this in time.
And I actually actually did andI went all around San Diego and
I was making calls and going tocard shops and it was a fun

(30:46):
little like almost vlog styletour around all of San Diego.
But we made it dramatic.
We had a timer, we played intothat story and that video,
within three weeks, already hada million views and it was
blowing up.
So we started to do more ofthat.
More challenges Could I do a 48hour challenge?

(31:06):
Could I do a one hour challenge?
Could I do a whatever?
And now the challenges are one.
If not, it is the strongestbucket of content that we create
because we have differentbuckets.
We have the mystery box bucket,which we had, and then we have
buying collections from peoplebucket, and then we have these
challenges, and these challengeshave been absolutely blowing up

(31:29):
.
One of them we did when I wentto Hawaii.
I did a 48 hour challenge tofinish this really popular set
and within four hours it had325,000 views and it was the
number three video in all ofYouTube.
It today has 15 million viewsand it has generated $72,000 in

(31:50):
revenue.
Just that one video, sorry,sorry, sorry, from just ad
revenue, just ad revenue alone.
Yeah, that is absolutely wild.

Darren (31:58):
Sorry, why is the CPM so high?
On that it's not.

Pat Flynn (32:01):
Is that normal?
It's low CPM.
So my business channel, patFlynn which, by the way, I've
had since 2009,.
It's not even at a half millionyet.
And then I start this new one.
And then everybody's like oh mygosh.
And I tell people when theyYou're taking the lessons.
Though, that's the logic Forsure, that's what I was going to
say and they're like oh my gosh, like this was an overnight
success.
I'm like no dude, I started onYouTube in 2009.

Darren (32:27):
This channel started in year 12 of that right Dude.
I was in high school in 2009.
Oh my gosh.

Pat Flynn (32:31):
So the CPMs are $5 to $6 per thousand, whereas on my
business channel it's like I'vehad up to $45, $50 CPM.
It's just the views are so muchlower and it's like I've had up
to $45, $50 CPM.
It's just the views are so muchlower.
And it's because of two things.
Number one just the number ofpeople watching these videos.
Right, that's providing therevenue, but why are so many

(32:55):
people watching this?
Well, here's a sample of someof the comments we get.
I don't even watch or care aboutPokemon, but I can't stop
watching these videos.
I never knew I'd be sointerested in Pokemon until I
watched this video.
So that's one part.

(33:16):
Right, we can capture attentionthrough storytelling.
It doesn't matter what thesubject matter is.
You can tell a story aboutanything and if you tell it well
, you can hold attention.
So we have leaned into story,right.
And number two some othercomments are Like on that same
video, the one from Hawaii, notme crying over a person

(33:40):
finishing a Pokemon set.
Why am I crying?
Who cut the onions?
All this stuff Bringing emotioninto it.
Right, when you get people tomove or feel moved, you can get
people to move, and that hasbeen one of the biggest lessons
in our story and packaging andall this stuff.

Darren (34:02):
How do you think about story selling as a component of
that?

Pat Flynn (34:06):
Story selling is the way selling should be done, in
my opinion, because when youtell a story, you understand who
is listening.
So I guess there's good storyselling and bad story selling.
Right, like a version of badstory selling would be like I
went to an event once in.
This is a real story.
I'm not like telling a story.
Well, it is a story.

(34:28):
But I went to an event in 2013and I didn't know, but it was a
pitch fest in a car accident andI almost died and all this
stuff, or I had cancer and allthis stuff.
And I came back and now I'mselling this ten thousand dollar
product, right, and they wouldcapture the emotion, like

(34:49):
literally tears in the audience,and then they wouldn't just
randomly say the ten thousanddollar product, but they would
lead into it and it transitionedand you know, all of a sudden
people got up, went to the backof the room and paid 10 grand to
be a part of this thing and itjust felt so slimy.

(35:12):
It just was like you've, you'vein a way I don't want to say
manipulated, but kind of,because when you get a person
into an emotional state, theydon't necessarily always make
the right decisions, whereasthere is good story selling, in
my opinion, which is you have acharacter in that story that a
person can relate to, whoovercomes a challenge that you

(35:33):
also have and, without evenasking, you want to be a part of
that too.
Right, the story does theselling for you, and that's
exactly why this video and allthe challenge videos hit so hard
with people who don't even careabout pokemon, because
everybody can relate to tryingto complete something and
falling short.

(35:53):
Everybody can relate to whatit's like to find that last
missing piece and the joy thatcomes with completion.
Those are the human qualitiesthat we're leaning into in that
story.

Darren (36:09):
It just so happens to be about cardboard with cartoons
on it it's because you don'thave the intention of sticking
an offer down someone's throatas well, because I went through
the channel and I couldn't findany direct product.
You had a few affiliate links,which are just happy coincidence
.
People want to go use it, butthere was no like specific offer
that I was like, okay, hey, gobuy my high ticket program from

(36:30):
here.
And I think going into that ata subconscious level for you
just allows you to play the gamedifferently, because you're
there to like literally servepeople.

Pat Flynn (36:39):
I had the luxury of not having to make money from it
.
You are right.
I'm just gonna be honest.
This was a side fun projectthat my kids got me into.
In 2020, during the pandemic,they started getting to Pokemon.
I went headfirst into theYouTube community and started
modding for different creatorsand started getting to know who
people were, and then had theidea to create the channel.
I didn't have the idea tocreate the channel right away,

(37:03):
and now I'm at a point wherePokemon invites me to events as
an influencer.
They send me product beforeother people get it Sometimes.
I got invited to Japan to go toWorlds to represent as a creator
and I put on these events, likeCard Party, where I invite the
other creators in the space.

(37:24):
I have a great relationshipwith pretty much all of them and
they want to go.
I don't even have to pay them.
They want to come because Iunderstand how this works.
People crave connection, andanybody who's into Pokemon
probably knew what it was liketo grow up with it and be
bullied.
Well, here's an event that youcan come.

(37:45):
That's a safe space for you toconnect with the other people
who were also bullied too, butyou know that you're going to
feel welcomed here and that isthe cool thing about the
community that we've created andit's become an event that feels
more like camp, because peopleare making friends and like I'm
going to see you next year andlet's like chat and exchange
numbers and stuff.
It's such a cool thing.
And you know, I'm 41.

(38:10):
My office has Pokemon all overit right now, like I like stuff
is shoved everywhere just to notbe on camera right now.
Um, I get fan mail.
Now I'm getting recognized onthe street.
The the probably mostinteresting interactions I have
are when a parent comes up to meand says that they heard my

(38:34):
voice on their son or daughter'siPad.
They're like I know that voice.
Wait, what is?
Why is Pat Flynn playing withPokemon cards?
I listen to his businesspodcast and then they get to
connect as a result of that.
It's it's just such a crazything.
They get to connect as a resultof that.
It's just such a crazy thing.

(38:54):
But again, it all stems back toleaning into who are these
people and what are theyinterested in?
What do they want?
It's interesting too, becausewhen I came into the space, I
didn't even grow up with Pokemon.
I grew up with Magic theGathering, I played a different
game and so I was a newbie.
So, going into the space, I'mlike, okay, well, I don't know
everything, I can't pretend tobe an expert here.
It'll be very clear very earlythat I'm just regurgitating

(39:17):
stuff.
Other people say I can't competeon collection because I'm just
starting mine.
So what can I compete on?
I can compete on story, I cancompete on owning the fact that
I'm new, and that's how Iposition myself.
Hey guys, I'm new here andwhatever I learn I'm gonna share
with you, and my first videoswere more educational about what

(39:39):
I'm learning as a collector andmistakes that I made and
purchases I shouldn't have made,and then mystery boxes, and
then the binders, and then thechallenges and stuff, and then
live every single week on Monday.
We've made Monday's days tolook forward to on the channel
and I go live pretty much everyMonday at 4.30 pm Pacific, and

(40:00):
this past week we had 3,500people concurrently watching me
open cards and give them away.
It's insane.
And then we have this communityof people who pay $2.99 a month
to be a member so that they canget access to a Discord channel
and special emojis that theyget to use in the chat that

(40:22):
others cannot, and we have 4,500people paying $2.99 a month.
It's like another $10,000,basically after YouTube takes
its cut.

Darren (40:38):
And I'm not even selling anything, it's an interesting
observation if you compare it tothe architecture exam helping
people solve a specific problem,which is a great way to build a
business right.
Solve a specific problem for aspecific user that's easy to
find online, but this is justlike a side quest.
Basically, that also worksreally well.
So it's almost like, yes, youcan do what the business book

(41:02):
tells you to do, but you overhere have accumulated all of
your skills and interest andcuriosity and then, as a result,
that became its own business.
So it's almost like you, youknow.
It's like the Henry Ford quoteis like whether you think you
can or you can't, you're right.
So you just started doing it,you started enjoying it, you
followed on the pursuit Maybe Icould build a community, maybe I
could do this, and the assemblyworked really well.

(41:25):
But that's the beauty of it,how it all kind of worked
serendipity.
Basically, do you want to knowhow we book the most amazing
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(41:45):
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Thank you.

Pat Flynn (42:03):
Yeah, and I think the reason it works is because I
understand people.
Now I understand psychology ofpeople and what brings people
together.
There's so many interesting Imean stories, right.
Like we have this coin that wemade when we hit milestones that
we give out to people who winprizes, who win giveaways, and
you know just some of mycommunity members get access to
them.
Like people go crazy over thesecoins.
They're just metal coins thatsay my logo and the subscriber

(42:27):
count, and there's only like 500of each of those milestones
made and I've seen them on ebayfor sale.
It's kind of wild.
So like these little trinkets,and I know, like the military
does, that they have these coinsthat signify certain things.
It's almost like a badge andand those things work really
well.
One of the mystery boxes Iopened randomly had a dish rag

(42:49):
in it and it, I think, wasplaced in there for like cushion
to keep the card safe orwhatever, but it was like this
ugly green it's.
I don't know where it is rightnow, but it's this ugly, green
and yellow dish rag and so Icould have just edited that out
because it doesn't belong there,but I know that that would be
an interesting thing.
So instead we leaned into it.

(43:10):
So when I opened it and thenthe cameras are rolling, I smell
it and I'm like what is thisdoing in here?
And then I use it to wipe thetable.
It comes back again Two videoslater.
I just wipe the table with it,I don't even mention it.
People are like, hey, isn'tthat the dish rag from the
mystery box?
And then eventually dish raghas.
We put googly eyes on it andnow it's an emoji.

(43:33):
And now people, when they seeit I don't even have to say
anything, they know because theywere part of that culture and
they it's like almost an insiderthing.
They're like, oh, that's the,you know, that's, that's the
Dishrag we even have.
Actually let me show you.
So we started doing timedchallenges and so we were like
okay, how can we make the timedchallenges more interesting and

(43:54):
intense?
Well, let's have like a realtimer.
It also shows that it's real.
And so I bought a kitchen timerand I put googly eyes on it and
I have eyebrows on it, so I canmake it like mad if I want to,
like that.
How do you think about thesethings?

(44:14):
Well, my producer, producer dan, who's worked with me for a
while now he was just like, weneed to name it.
Like, what do we name?
Just name it steve or something.
Steve is a celebrity on thechannel now because he shows up
and we, we, we turn him into acharacter in the stories, like
steve is the evil villain thatwe're trying to defeat and all
this stuff.
And he has a name.
Like people want plushies ofSteve.
Now, like they said that theylike they would pay money for

(44:36):
Steve plushies.
It's just a kitchen timer witheyes, but we've weaved it into a
story, turned it into somethingrelatable, a character that
forces you to try to getsomething done in in time.
Um, who's always overlookingyou?
And we, we bring him into thecamera and we, you know it's

(44:57):
just.
And the reason he has teethright now is because I just
finished a halloween uh videothat he was involved with, so he
was like a vampire or something.
It sounds so stupid and that'sthe cool thing, because if
you're not in the community,yeah, it does sound stupid, but
if you're in it, you don't getit right.
Yeah, you don't.
It's like no, we, we get it, weknow we're in, we're insiders
and anybody else who gets ityou're.

(45:19):
You're like best friendsalready right.
You have something to connectwith it's.
It's what it's.
It's why, when you go to like asporting game, and your team
hits the winning run or whatever, or scores the winning
touchdown, you're high-fiving,you're hugging people who you
don't even know, simply becausethey're wearing the same ball

(45:40):
cap, they're just wearing thesame colors, and so already,
without even saying a word,there's strength and if you are
the creator who facilitatesthose interactions, who creates
that stadium or that safe spacefor those people to come in, I
mean it's magic.
It's absolutely magic, and thisis why, in 2022, we switched at

(46:03):
SPI, our business model from ouronline courses that we were
selling.
We were selling themindividually, right For hundreds
of dollars, and they wereselling and they were working,
but we knew that that wasn't thebest way to serve our audience
anymore.
Times were changing and peoplewere more likely to get better
results if they were to do ittogether, and so we switched our

(46:25):
business model from sellingone-off courses to a community
where those courses now exist.
We call them community-poweredcourses and every once in a
while, we take people throughthose courses that are digital,
that are already there,pre-recorded, but we take people
through like an eight-weekcohort or a 10-week cohort to go
through them together and wefound a 2.8x higher chance of uh

(46:50):
or or likelihood or orcompletion rate basically a
three times better completionrate by doing it that way.
And in the beginning we lostmoney because of that right.
We were selling tens ofthousands of dollars per month
of these courses and now it'slike well, currently it's like
66 a month, uh paid quarterly,but $66 a month, so we're losing

(47:14):
money because people haveaccess to all those courses for
$66 a month.
So our deal was well, if we canget people to not just take one
course but to see the pathwaythrough each of the courses,
that would help them along theirway, and if they were to meet
friends and we and if weconnected them with a mastermind
group inside, we know that overthe long haul we will have

(47:37):
earned more revenue from thatuser than if we just got the
upfront payment.
And that's exactly what'shappening.
We have like a 4% churn rate or6% churn rate or something,
because people are finding theycome for the content, they stay
for the community, they don'trealize that too, right, that's
what's interesting.

Darren (47:52):
They don't realize how much they need that
accountability in one regard,but also community to work
through it because, similar toyou different company angle on
top of the agency we have a donewith you component, which is
still kind of high ticket, Iwould say that.
But the logic in it is the factthat they have a client success
manager.

(48:13):
They're very much more likehands-on and because we're kind
of not keeping tabs on them butmaking sure they hit certain
roadmaps, they're actuallyworking through it because, you
know, completion rate ofprograms is incredibly low,
right, because of the fact thatit's probably overwhelmed.
Uh, the more one the ones I dowith people, the more I realize
that people just feeloverwhelmed.
But when you kind of create avision for them and then they're

(48:33):
, I think what's interesting isthe fact that if they feel
overwhelmed, but they feeloverwhelmed with other people,
it's almost like the communitycome together and they know that
they need to start showing upto the calls, working in
communities, actually engagingwith other people.
And, dude, I got to say to youas well, like we started using
Circle because of you too,because I was using a very

(48:55):
fragmented approach of Slack andTinkific.
It was a mess and I integratedeverything to Circle.
I actually want to ask youabout this too.
And then I've always been usingConvertKit, which is now Kit as
well.
So that's been crazy man,honestly, like you're.
So you were a seed investor inthose companies, correct?

Pat Flynn (49:13):
No, I was.
I am an advisor for thosecompanies a little bit different
so I came on early to Basicallyin exchange for advice.
I have become a shareholder, soI'm on the board of these
companies.

Darren (49:29):
So what made you spot those companies?
Because that was early, veryearly for those companies,
especially Buzzsprout too.

Pat Flynn (49:34):
The first company that I I'm not an advisor for
Buzzsprout, just FYI.
I'm just a fan of theirs andthink they do great work.
The first company I advised wasLeadpages, clay Collins.
The CEO approached me and said,hey, do you want to be an
advisor?
And I said I have no idea whatthat means.

(49:56):
And he said, okay, well, here'show it works.
In exchange for this manyshares, which are worth this
much and hopefully will be worthmore in the future, right,
that's the play.
I just want to get on a callwith you once a month and if you
know anybody that can help thecompany, you give us those
relationships and if anythinghappens and like we need your
help, like you're there for us.

(50:17):
And I was like, yeah, sure,let's do it.
And so we did that.
Then Nathan Berry, ceo ofConvertKit Now Kit approached me
in a similar way.
He took me out to coffee, toldme he was creating this email
service provider.
I was on Aweber at the time andthen I switched to Infusionsoft
and then Conkit came on.
I was like this is exactly whatI need and I said I'd be happy
to, and I was able to take thatcompany from five figures arr or

(50:38):
uh, mrr, to to six figures, um,mrr, and it's now going crazy
and he credits me a lot for thestart of the company in terms of
giving it that surge in theblogosphere at the time, which I
always appreciate.
And then Circle Circle wasstarted by two ex-Teachable
employees.
I was an advisor for Teachableas well, sort of a competitor to

(51:02):
Thinkific, and Teachable wasacquired and that was cool
because, you know, I don't getpaid for these things as advisor
.
You get paid when the companyis acquired or sells or ipos,
and so I got a nice big checkfrom teachable in that
acquisition.
So I'm no longer an advisorthere.
But, uh, I knew that the guysover at circle who were former

(51:27):
teachable uh employees werecreating something amazing and
they were basically right at thestart of their journey when
they reached out to us and wehad a conversation and had a
chat together and my partnerMatt, we were like man, if we
get in early on this, we canactually influence how it is
shaped for the community that wewant to build and, you know,

(51:47):
give them like direct insightand feedback, like as it's being
built, and they were very opento that and we worked out a deal
.
So I'm an advisor for Circle aswell.
Matt, my partner and I areadvisor combined to over, I
think, 13 companies right now,which is great.
One of the other companies Iadvised you might know was
Squadcast actually, and thenthey got acquired by Descript

(52:08):
recently, so I got a nice.
I didn't have as many shares inthat one, but I got a nice
payday for that one as well, forthe advice I gave and the
connections I made and thosekinds of things.
So it's been a neat journey.
It's a fun way to have my handin many companies without having
to do the work to build thecompany, if that makes sense and
I tried to build.

Darren (52:29):
I tried to build a variation of squad cast on one
stage, like early on in 2020.
Um, I just always video, justvery visual guy, and I was
trying to build like softwaremyself.
I come from a softwarebackground, so I was my that was
my side of it and I was like,look, this is way too
complicated to tackle as, like ayoung, 22 year old, I got to
figure it.
I got to figure out how topodcast first and then build

(52:51):
secondly on top of it.
But you've picked some goodhorses, though.
Right In terms of like circleis amazing though Circle is.
It's so funny because I thinkthere's someone who's not in the
space who hasn't seen howfragmented the industry is.
You just see a circle and like,oh okay, it's a community and
courses, but, and courses.
But if you understand howdifficult it is to combine those

(53:12):
components, get people to workthrough stuff, communicate
elegantly, make it look almostlike Facebook, the interaction
is so clean, the UI is so good,you can white label it.
I think we're actually going towhite label it in the new year
as a plan.
That's kind of our goal.
But again, if you white label,looks like it genuinely looks
like you built your own app.
It genuinely looks like you'vebuilt everything natively.

Pat Flynn (53:33):
It's so good.
Um, those guys, those guys arefreaks of nature, like they're,
they're, they're and they'removing fast.

Darren (53:40):
They come out with so many new things what do you
think about school, school andwhat like.
What's your thought process ornot?
What do you think about whenyou, when you look at
communities, so you are so, soembedded in communities and
you've used them, but nowcommunities are kind of like a
wave in terms of because ofschool and then WAP.
I know the guys that areworking on WAP and they're just

(54:00):
competing directly with school.
That's basically the strategyto the most part.
How do you think about that?
Because that's like amarketplace of communities.

Pat Flynn (54:09):
First of all, mighty Networks was one of the first
ones to do this, and then Circlecame about, and then School,
and then there's been a numberof others.
I think it's great.
I love more choice forconsumers.
I love the fact that it pushesthese companies to innovate
faster, which is always good forus, as long as they do it well.

(54:29):
I mean, even with Kit, likeBeehive showed up, and did you
know that when Kit did theirrebrand change, which they were
publicly talking about for avery long time, right, they were
literally sharing the processof the rebrand, which was just
really really neat and differentfor a software company.
The day that Kit rebranded fora software company, the day that

(54:51):
Kit rebranded, beehive came outwith a promo that said convert
to Beehive Kit, join now to savethis, whatever.
And it was like directlybecause, like it had convert kit
, convert to Beehive Kit to joinyour email, and it was just
like there's different companieswho have different morale.

(55:15):
I guess you could call it.
But props to them.
I mean, that's their style.
They've built a loyal audienceof people.
But it's a great tool, but italso forces the competition to
go.
Okay, cool.
How do we build a moat aroundwhat we have so that, no matter
what happens, there is nocompetition, right, and I think

(55:35):
that's just healthy.
It's healthy business.
It means things are alwaysbeing innovative and and you
know as much as we, the consumerdon't like change because it's
like, oh no, I gotta think aboutthis thing now, or it's
different.
I think deep down, we kind oflike improvement and you can't
improve unless you change.
So I don't know, I think it'scool, I, i's cool.

(55:57):
I admire Alex Hermosi and whathe has built and his muscles,
but I feel like he's using whathe knows how to do, which is
market For a product that I haveheard I've never used it.
So this is just what I'mhearing is not up to par with
where a lot of people would wanta community tool to be, and I

(56:21):
know from the inside of beingwith Circle that like it's going
to be hard to compete.
But Alex is encouraging a lotof people to create courses in
community and change their livesand cannot hate him for that,
because I'm doing the same thingjust in my own way, 100%.

Darren (56:38):
It just depends on what you, what you're going after.
I listened to Alex on my FirstMillion again, but it was his
second podcast and he made areally good point, which was you
know, he's acquired, he's builtthis audience so that they can
build businesses, so that he canpartner with when they get to 5
million a year.
But in the process of doingthat over the next five years,

(56:58):
you have this massive bucket,which is 99% of his audience,
who are still under 5k a month.
So this is basically his playto almost utilize or not utilize
, but give an offer to thesepeople and allow them to start.
So I think, if you've seenrecently, school have kind of
changed their ads where it'sreally really focused on
beginners, whereas for me, whohad a community for quite some

(57:20):
time when I was racking mybrains over Slack and Thinkific,
circle made so much sensebecause I needed so much
functionality, and then I workedwith, like Circle's support
team, we were doing a migration.
It was so complicated, but wekind of needed it because it was
complicated.
Does that make sense?
So I feel like fit for purpose.
Is it getting started?

(57:42):
It's amazing, right, and Ithink the our space of the
online business space is onlygetting more interest and it's
only getting faster.
It's a lot more faster thanyour you know initial affiliates
that you were doing back in theday.
Right, there's a thousand andone ways to monetize an audience
I didn't even have a product tosell.

Pat Flynn (57:59):
I could generate $200,000 a month by promoting
hosting companies and keywordresearch tools and that was
amazing because I could justwrite really good content and
say okay, in step three.
This is the tool I used.
If you want to use it, here's adiscount and go through my link
.
200k yeah, profit or revenue,revenue, profit margins, 85%.

(58:24):
I mean it was not much expense.

Darren (58:27):
There is that wave and we could have a second podcast
on this.
I know it's late for you aboutsponsorships for podcasts now,
because we are on the buy, thebuy side, the positioning side,
and the positioning hasn't.
There's no.
The way I've described this isthat there's no proper
equilibrium.
When you're sponsoring anentire brand youtube, spotify,

(58:50):
maybe instagram, maybe tiktok,maybe linkedin as well there's
no like baseline.
The CPM stuff is not a modelthat fits into that mode, into
that framework.
So the way we position it ismuch more of it's kind of like
those days, the way that youdescribe it.
That's how I describe thisright now for sponsorships,
because, depending on the typeof show, of course, the numbers

(59:12):
can get quite silly.
Basically, on the upside,providing the show solves a
specific user for a specificperson, right.

Pat Flynn (59:18):
And this is where relationships come into play,
because you don't want to do aCPM-based model when you're
doing sponsorships in general,because you don't know what
those numbers might be and youmight have to make up for that
later.
Especially on YouTube, it'skind of all over the place
sometimes, but if you have arelationship and you understand
the long-term partnership youwant to create with a brand,
then you form a sponsorshipwhere it's more like an

(59:40):
endorsement for a company andcontinual mentions of it and
injecting it into the brand or,better yet, into your process of
how you do what you do, in away that provides much more
value than just hey.
Let me take a break from thisawesome conversation to
interrupt you for 60 secondsabout something that you
probably maybe don't need.

(01:00:01):
So I like the organic stuffbetter and the injection into a
process to help support acompany.

Darren (01:00:08):
My logic is only promote something that you'd be willing
to interview the founder on.
Because if I'm willing to sitwith the founder of StreamYard,
I'd like to sit with the founderof StreamYard and interview him
, have him on my show, because Ibelieve in the product and it's
worked really well for me overthe past four years.
I think it's like a nice mentalmodel that you believe in what
it is so that you can speakabout it publicly, versus just

(01:00:29):
getting the cash and thenthere's no click-through rate
and the audience turns off.

Pat Flynn (01:00:33):
Unless it's one of those interviews where you try
to flip it on that personbecause they did something bad.

Darren (01:00:38):
Oh no, that's not my style man.
We're trying to go against that.
Can you imagine that?

Pat Flynn (01:00:43):
They sponsor the podcast.
You invite them on the show,they paid you, and then you like
flip it and make them look bad.
That'd be so bad.

Darren (01:00:52):
The problem is though that does happen, but that's the
thing you know, like that's thewhole thing with this is that
that stuff actually happens sofrequently, which is just so
unfortunate, and I think that'swhy people like yourself.

Pat Flynn (01:01:04):
Gotta do it for the gram, you gotta get that
attention and you know, be havesome spectacle to you know, put
in your intro so you can getclicks and views.
Um, some of that is necessary.
I mean, I don't think thatstyle.
But going back to just peopleand how they consume, now you
have to give a person a reasonwhy they need to stick around

(01:01:25):
nowadays, and that hook is key.
And you have to be a littleclickbaity.
I'm in the clickbait camp, butclickbait and fulfill that
promise, not clickbait andswitch, which is the problem.
I think I heard whoever what'shis name he owns the YouTube
channel Vertasium.
He calls it legit bait.
It's like, yeah, it's bait, butit's legit so that you can

(01:01:47):
serve the person, because ifthey're not clicking or sticking
, you're not helping them.
So you have to get theirattention.
And it's sad but it's true andthat's why thumbnails on YouTube
are like.
I just spent today two hours ona photo shoot here at my house
virtually with my photographerif you want to call him that my

(01:02:08):
thumbnailographer.
He tells me like my camerasettings and where to put my
lights and stuff and it's reallyawkward.
I did a thumbnail for one of myupcoming longs on Deep Pocket
Monster, my Pokemon channel, andit turned out great.
But we're investing $1,000 justfor a couple thumbnails a month
because it is that importantand we have seen better results

(01:02:32):
as a result of having betterthumbnails.
So it's almost not fair,because, sure, if you have the
money to spend on it, cool, youcould having better thumbnails.
So it's almost not fair Because, sure, if you have the money to
spend on it, cool, you coulddesign better thumbnails.
So sometimes, however,creativity can help as well,
thinking about what a personsees on their entire home feed
and how to get yours to standout.
It doesn't have to cost money,but if you have it, then it's
worth investing into somethinglike thumbnails, for sure.

Darren (01:02:55):
The way I think about it is that it's like a wrapping, a
packaging of a chocolate bar.
You walk into Walmart, you seea chocolate bar.
The reason why you see it isbecause of the packaging.
So it works in that context.
It works in the context ofYouTube as well.
So I write titles like thedream outcome from Hermosi,
especially in a business niche.
What is that dream outcomesomeone's trying to achieve?
Whether it's launch a podcast,building this business, building

(01:03:17):
that brand, wrapping thataround there and having the
timeframe, having everything andthen having it within 50
characters.
So there's different components.
Now, I don't want to keep youtoo long, though, because I know
you have to.
I know it's late for you, but,pat, this was amazing man.
It was really, really great tomeet.

(01:03:40):
Hopefully, you had a great timetoo, and I think we're both in
this.
Hopefully we're both in asimilar position whereby, for us
, it's much more aboutrelationships and building great
content, and I think that'swhat's kept you in the game for
so long.
It's what's inspired me frompeople like yourself.
So I do genuinely say, from thebottom of my heart, a big thank
you for everything.
Um, and not just today, justeverything, just top of mind.
Whatever, I always go back toyour YouTube videos whenever I
feel a bit lost sometimes.

Pat Flynn (01:03:58):
Some of the OG videos .
Thank you, man.
I appreciate that.
Darren, before we hit record,everybody listening told me a
great story about how he startedhis show and he found my
YouTube videos on how to start apodcast and gave me a lot of
credit for the reason why theshow started.
But I want to give credit backto you, darren.
You've done some amazing stuffhere and the way you interview

(01:04:19):
is great and inspiration topeople who, under your brand,
are doing that as well.
So you know, congrats on whatyou've built and the platform
and the agency and you know whoyou inspire and you know
somebody helped me and I'mhelping.
I helped you, you're helpingothers.
Like this is imagine a worldwhere everybody's just here to
help each other.
Like what an amazing place itwould be.

(01:04:40):
And you know we're both doingour part and I hope those of you
listening uh are doing yourpart as well.

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#259 Pat Flynn - 15 Years of Online Business Advice in 65 Mins

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#259 Pat Flynn - 15 Years of Online Business Advice in 65 Mins