#270 Matt Lakajev - How to Instantly Drive More Sales (Sell-by-Chat Framework) - Kickoff Sessions

Episode Transcript
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Matt Lakajev (00:00):
Only 3% of the market is ready to buy right now
.
The other 97% will be ready atsome point in the future.

Darren Lee (00:06):
Most people are wasting time on social media.
Matt Lakovich isn't one of them.
He's ranked number one inAustralia for lead generation
and has helped hundreds ofclients add anywhere between 30K
and 100K per month, and knowsexactly how to turn posts into
profit.
This episode has no fluff, notheory, just real simple
strategies that turnsconversations into profit.
This episode has no fluff, notheory, just real simple

(00:26):
strategies that turnsconversations into cash.
What do you think you're doingdifferently on LinkedIn?

than everybody else.
The reason why a lot of smallbusiness owners can't sell, it's
just because they don't haveenough leads.
And when you don't have enoughleads you act desperate, you
drop your price, you do thingsthat you usually wouldn't do,
you treat your staff badlybecause you just might be in a
bad mood.
But if you solve the leadsproblem, everything else gets
solved.

Darren Lee (00:49):
Where I do want to start, though, is I think I want
to from your perspective.
What do you think you're doingdifferently on LinkedIn than
everybody else?

The biggest thing that people don't know how to do
is they don't know how to haveanother conversation with
another human being and buildtrust with them and not sell to
them, because only 3% of themarket is ready to buy right now
.
The other 97% will be ready atsome point in the future.
But when you pitch in the firstmessage you're only actually

(01:24):
hitting into a small percentageof the 3%, and the other 99.5%
that you hit you're immediatelybreaking the trust and you can't
go back to them.
The only thing I do differentis I reach out to everyone but I
don't pitch.
I only add value and then Iinvite, and so I have 333 times

(01:45):
the amount of leads thaneveryone else, because everyone
else pitches in the firstmessage.
So if you look at it, threepercent of the market's ready to
buy right now.
Only about 10 of that will beinterested, so that's 0.3.
That's the whole totaladdressable market they're
reaching out to right now.
That will get back to them.
I'm reaching out to 100.
So if you times that, you know,100 divided by 0.3 it's like

(02:09):
333.

Darren Lee (02:10):
So just from the number of conversations I have,
I had 333 times the amount ofleads, and we just sell on a
longer time horizon dude, thisis going to be so sick so let's
get a bit of context as to, yeah, what your offer is, how much
money have you made with it, andwhy this way is going to be a
better opportunity for peoplethan the traditional way that
they're selling on linkedin,which is obviously wrong.

Yeah, gotcha um wait.
Are we into it now or just?

Darren Lee (02:35):
yeah, we've always been recording.

I was like I thought you're like setting me
up into the thing.
I was like this is hilarious.
Um, so we just hit the groundrunning.
Yeah, sweet, this is sick.
We've got three offers, sowe've got a free one.
It's how to start selling onLinkedIn immediately.
It's like a free five-day emailcourse.
I actually took a piece of ourpaid program and I was going to

(02:57):
charge $500 for it, but I justwas like screw it, let's just do
it for free.
Just agree with that, yeah, andjust, we've even had people just
messaging me because I have amarket, a massive market in
lower socioeconomic countrieswho can never afford our thing,
and I was like, man, let's screwit, I'm just going to give it
away for free because I want tohelp as many people as I can,

(03:18):
because our second offer is like3K USD, right, and so for some
people that's just crazy money,and so I want to be able to help
everyone.
So we gave that away for freeand that kind of acts as a
conversion mechanism that wehave, and since we launched that
on October 15, we've had about5,700 opt-ins since then.
And that was organic fromLinkedIn, which is pretty good,
and they go through it.

(03:39):
And I get people messaging meall the time saying this is
amazing.
And in the offer itself, in thevideos, I say to people hey, I
want you to win first to makemoney.
And when you do, pinky, promiseme that you're going to join
our paid program.
And I actually have like a bigpinky promise on the thing and I
ask people to comment on thevideo pinky promise and there's

(03:59):
like 180 people that havecommented pinky promise and so
it's like a commitment andconsistency thing.

Darren Lee (04:04):
It's like um, aligning yourself to the actions
, all right, and having the it'slike self-acceptance, being
like, okay, I'm going to do thiswhen I'm at that point it's
actually just like apsychological like.

it's like it's just using reciprocity.
So robert shieldini's he's got.
He wrote a book with six rulesof persuasion but he actually
has seven, because he talksabout the next rule he made up
in persuasion, which is the nextbook.
But reciprocity is saying, hey,I did this thing for you,
making it known to them when youget this thing, you do this
thing for me.
It triggers something inpeople's brain where it sticks

(04:40):
into their long-term memory,where they can't remove it and
they always have guilt Untilit's like, if you, you know, if
you go out to dinner and youforget your wallet and it's an
expensive dinner and your friendpays for it, you just feel so
guilty until you do somethingfor them.
And so it's wired into our DNA.
If you do something for people,they're going to feel

(05:01):
reciprocity.
But even if they don't buy fromme, they'll still feel this
pull to tell other peoplebecause they have to, because if
they don't, either they're apsychopath which is nearly no
one or they have to do something.
And so they might show up on mycontent and comment, they might
tell people, they might justspread good word.

(05:22):
There was someone who wentthrough our free course and he
got so much value.
Comment.
They might tell people theymight just spread good word or
that you know, like we had.
Um, there was someone who wentthrough our free course and he
got so much value.
But he's working with one of mycompetitors who's a friend
right, we could mate but like sohe couldn't.
He didn't buy our thing, but hewent through the free course,
made so much money from it, thatsomeone came to him and said
who do I use to sell on linkedin?

(05:42):
And he's like you have to usethis guy.
And this guy came to us and hepaid me 16,000 USD and I never
spoke to him in person.
He comes just from the strongreferral.
So it creates this energybubble of value and trust around
you and that's why I'm like Ilike a lot of free stuff and

(06:04):
giving it away.

Darren Lee (06:05):
Just want to take one quick break to ask you one
question have you been enjoyingthese episodes?
Because, if you have, I'dreally appreciate it if you
subscribe to the channel so thatmore people can see these
episodes and be influenced tobuild an online business this
year.
Thank you, yeah.
What I think is really powerfulthere as well is the fact that
when you enable someone likethat, so you teach them the

(06:26):
mechanism, they takeresponsibility and ownership for
their action, yeah, andtherefore they're more inclined
to recommend you.
I find that's a big differencebetween agency and coaching.
Is that an agency?
You do it for them?
So it's kind of like a dirtysecret.
Does that make sense?
They're like oh, I don't wantto admit that this person did it

(06:48):
for me, whereas with coachingit's like, oh, I'm so grateful
for Don Martell Taki, james KempMark because you actually
helped them, you enabled them.

It's weird, right.
I think the agency and coachingare just slightly different
business models, different withothers.
There's times when people arein positions in their life where
an agency, like, makes absolutesense to use because, like,
their time is valuable so theyshouldn't be spending their time
on doing it.
But there's the other flip sideof things of like, you know,

(07:16):
when you get coached, you justit's just speed of getting
better at a skill, yeah, likethat's, that's all a coach does.
So you know, I, I before thispodcast and I recorded with
chris doe on monday, like twodays ago as well, I got speaker
coaching, like.
I reached out to one of myfriends, arabella, who's coached
like, like all these massivecompanies and their ceos, and I

(07:37):
got her to coach me on speakingbefore and like, what I learned
from her, like, like, was youknow, in four sessions was way
more than two years of YouTubevideos, because it just it
skills you up a lot faster.
So coaching, I think, gets youthe skill which enables you to,
but agency can get you theresults really faster.

(07:57):
Yeah, so if it's a good agency,if it's a good agency.
Yeah, so it's like it's kind ofyou got to trade off of, like
what you're doing and yeah, yeah.
But if you're an entrepreneurstarting out like you want to
learn the skills.

Darren Lee (08:08):
So with this offer right now, you've hit three and
a half million yeah In total, orthis year.

So the our run right now is three and a half
million.
So I'll run through the numbersand break it down, because
people are always like what?

Darren Lee (08:19):
did you actually do?
That's the value for like.
Why the fuck should we careabout this and why?

should we focus on LinkedIn Exactly?
So we've got a free offer tosell on LinkedIn.
Our second offer is like ourmain offer.
It's called our Six FigureCreators Program.
It's specifically targeted tosmall business owners or
creators who want to drive, likemultiple six figures to their
business through LinkedIn and todo it themselves.

(08:44):
So it's very much aroundteaching someone to fish instead
of giving them the fish.
So it's like we show you how todo it and because of that we
get some insane results becausepeople pay.
You know it's three grand USDnow I hope we go up by the time
this is out, but like it's threegrand and like people just get
in, because when they getskilled up, they get skilled up,
and we've got in.

(09:11):
At the moment we've got 660people in our program in total
in the school community, um, andthen we've got one other offer
as well, which is called sevenfigure creators.
So it's kind of like inviteonly.
I only work with 12 people nowon purpose and there's no course
content or anything, they'rejust.
There's literally just twocalls a week and we just get on
and we just implement.
That's it.
So like I coach, like you know,a few different people, like
one guy who's you know, he'sbeen the CRO for like hundreds

(09:32):
like so many different likesales companies and he's got
about 120,000 followers.
So I coach him.
Like another guy who's thenumber one finance person us on
linkedin but it's very muchsales specific, but it's like an
invite only thing and that'slike that was the price of
that's like 14 grand a year orsomething like that done and
that combines it turned to 3.5million so we've done like cash

(09:54):
collected.
Now we've done 2 million.
We do about 300 000 a month.
So the past two months we'vedone near close to 300 000 a
month.

Darren Lee (10:02):
Last couple of months what do you think is the
biggest lever for that?
What's the unique mechanism?

So why we've closed so much?

Darren Lee (10:11):
Most creators are broke right.
Most guys on LinkedIn don'tactually make the numbers
Apparently like Justin Welch,mark Gray, you know.

So we can go deep here.

Darren Lee (10:20):
If I talk about our.

The competitive advantage that I have is a few
things.
One, I have a co-founder.
So, like I do not believe insolopreneurship.
Like the, the people, likeyou've always had Justin Welsh
on here like irregardless of,like, whatever he does, he's
just a unit.
Yeah, he's like no one is asgood as him.

(10:43):
So, like I think you, you knowhe's had 25 years in the
trenches and he's built twobillion dollar companies two of
them, yeah, two of them rightand he's seen like how to uh,
how to have multiple employees?
yeah, he's another level likeand I think it's really hard
because to get to his levelthere's gonna take 25 years,
like to get to his level.

(11:04):
So I think there's a.
There's this kind of I thinkthe word solopreneur has a is a
great marketing wrapping aroundit.
But, like I, I like you know,why would I like, if I get paid,
like you know, two grand anhour to get on a call, why would
I clean my own house as likekind of bad or bougie as that
sound or like, why would I, youknow, do all these things?
It's like you want to outsourceeverything as much as you

(11:27):
possibly can.
So, like, I just think that,yeah, the solopreneurship thing
is like not something, but Ithink what's helped us grow as
co-founder is the total oppositepersonality type as me, but
he's like an absolute genius.
That's the first thing, and thesecond thing would probably be
it's our deep understanding ofsales and psychology and how

(11:50):
we're thinking from a longertime horizon than shorter.
Because, you know, we teachsmall business owners how to
generate leads for theirbusiness through linkedin,
through organic content and dms,and the reason why a lot of
small business owners can't sellit's just because they don't
have enough leads.
And when you don't have enoughleads, you act desperate, you

(12:10):
drop your price, you do thingsthat you usually wouldn't do,
you treat your staff badlybecause you just might be in a
bad mood, but if you solve theleads problem, everything else
gets solved in your actualbusiness.
So I've just had thatfundamental belief since I
started.
So I just believe that whenyou're having conversations in
the DMs with people or you havesales conversations with them,

(12:33):
you always want to do what'sright for the other person and
the best fit for them.
Yeah, and the best thing isn't.
Hey, saw your profile.
You might be looking for Legion.
I can get you 10 calls in thenext 30 days.
I will give you a refund offive grand and send your kids to
Disneyland.
Right, you can make these crazypromises, but like it's very
short term thinking.
So I'm just like.

(12:54):
You know a lot of people thatjump in our program.
We've been chatting, I've got aone-to-one coaching call with a
girl next week and like peoplecan pay extra money if they want
to call me.
It's like an extra thousandbucks and she's been following
me for a year, and so thecompetitive advantage we have is
that every conversation I'vehad with someone like, I'm not

(13:14):
hard pitching them, I'm onlyinviting them to work with me,
and so we'll have a conversationfor that long and when that?
When that happens, if everyoneelse out there goes and pitches,
they just cut down the marketcompletely.
If we go into this we talkedabout this before which was only
3% of the market is ready tobuy right now in total, and the

(13:38):
other 97% will probably be readyat some stage, they might be
completely unaware that yoursolution exists or they might be
close to that 3%.
What all the lead gen bros dois they just go for volume and
they usually don't understandpsychology.
So they just go let's justsmash this list and if we do
enough volume and we outreachenough people with these crazy

(13:59):
promises and we send these loomvideos of these audits and all
this kind of shit, right Likethey do get a few people coming
in.
But if you look at the market,there's only 3% that's ready to
buy.
Of that 3%, only about 10% willactually even respond to cold
outreach period.
So what you're looking at is0.3% out of 100% and everyone

(14:22):
that they don't end up sellingto or chat to.
They also completely breaktheir trust.
They burn the lead.
They burn the lead, and when alead's burned it's like, yeah,
you can't come back.
It's like when you smashsomething, it's like when you do
something bad, like someonecan't trust you for a long
period of time.
And so, really, the magic trickof what I do differently is like
when I chat to someone, I'llsay like, hey, darren, what's

(14:44):
going on?
I saw you connected to myclient, so-and-so.
We just had a really great Zoomcall last night.
I saw you're also, you know,serving barley.
I'm coming over here too,thought I'd connect and say hi,
like that's the first message.
And then the person's like, oh,I feel special, like this is
actually really nice,no-transcript.

(15:08):
And then someone's like, oh, Istarted posting because I saw
this person.
And then I say you know, oh,awesome, like that sounds like
really cool.
Yeah, I remember when I firststarted posting.
It's like super confusing.
And I I gave Sean some of thesetemplates that help him get
leads.
You know, would you like me tosend them to you?
I'll ask him permission andthey'll be like, yeah, I
actually love that.
And then I'll say, yeah, cool,use number three and seven, like

(15:30):
.
Let me know if you do do it.

Darren Lee (15:32):
Oh, by the way, Can you explain the asking for
permission thing, because I cangive you an example, too Most
people don't understand If wereally break it down.

The mistake that most people make is when they
start a conversation, they'rethinking what can I say next?
That will get the person on themeeting.
That's not the goal.
The goal of the DM is twothings.
One is to make them feelspecial, as weird as that is.
If you make someone feelspecial, as weird as that is, if
you make someone feel special,it cements it into their

(16:08):
long-term memory.
They remember you forever andyou're not considered a
salesperson.
That's number one.
The second thing is you justget them to reply, and so that's
all you want to do, and soyou're micro-persuading people
through what you're saying.
Every single line isintentional.
So if you look at any reallygood copywriters so you've had
Lara Koster and Yasmin Alek onthis podcast, right, you read

(16:32):
every line of their post.
It's like a hook.
It's amazing, even theirscripts, like I know Lara's.

Darren Lee (16:37):
YouTube scripts.

She told me personally they're so good.
Every line on her YouTubevideos she wants to be scripted
in terms of psychology.
Yep, I've, yeah, I've heard shelike.
I heard her on somewhere whereshe said I spent 12 hours
writing this and I was like,yeah, I can see how you would
have done.

Darren Lee (16:52):
I've been with her.
When she spent 12 hours doingit, I've actually physically
worked with her.
It's crazy, and she'll juststare at the same fucking screen
.
Just make slight adjustmentsthe same way that brett
malinowski, yeah exact same it's.

So people don't treat their dms like that.
That's the problem.
So, like the dms are, like, youneed to treat them the same,
and so you don't want to justsay pointless stuff.
So every time I ever sayanything to someone, it's like
on purpose, and so thepermission based thing is to
make them feel like I'm doingthem a favor, even though I'm
like I'm just saying it becauseI want to create that feeling of

(17:24):
goodwill inside of it's just aframing, yeah framing and
positioning that you can say thesame thing, but just how it's
said, kind of like what yourwife?

Darren Lee (17:32):
yeah, same my wife, yeah.
I can't tell my wife to dosomething, but I can educate her
as to why it will be beneficialthat we did this thing yeah,
and this was genuinely.
We've spent five years together.
I've had to do this for mydifferent things.
Yeah, because, whereas likesomeone like you who's just high
logic, I'd be like, bro, let'sjust do this yeah, and we just
we just go get it done and it'skind of like the mz that but

(17:53):
understanding those points and Iremember you mentioned a video
saying that.

Understanding the pacing of the responder, there's
this I've never heard someonetalk about that, bro, there's so
much like to do with it like.
So everyone has watched chrisvoss's videos where he's the
famous hostage negotiator and hetalks about mirroring and
matching their time.
And so it's the same in the dmexchange.

(18:18):
If your friend writes you likean essay, long message, venting
to you, if you respond back withlike cool, sick, they'll be
like you, asshole.
And so it's the same with theDMs.
Or if they shoot you throughbing, bing, bing, like three
short messages, like my bestmate Andy will say to me yo,
dickhead, what are you doing?

(18:38):
Come over.
Like that's what he says to me.
I'm like, yeah, what's up.
And I, that's what he says tome.
I'm like, yeah, what's up.
And then I'll just like runthrough, you know.
But if he sends me that andthen I just come back with an
essay, he'll be like is this guylike, really?
And so in the DMs you want tomatch like what they're giving
you.
So if they respond fast, yourespond fast.
If they take a day, you take aday.
And so you want to match theirfeeling because you kind of want

(19:01):
to sell to them and they wantto be sold to.
But like you're, you're micropersuading them through, and so,
like, I'll reach out, I'll givethe person the free thing, I'll
mention something to make themfeel special, and then I'll say
something like oh yeah, look,I'm just letting you let you
know, dude, I've got to bounce,I've got to actually take my dog
for a walk.
Can I shoot you back a messagenext week?

(19:21):
I just want to see how thosetemplates went.
See you bye.
And so I'm just like what Iwant to distill in their mind is
that we use heuristics asmental shortcuts.
So, like, in our brain there'sfolders, and so when we see
something, we like immediatelyfolder it against something

(19:42):
familiar.
We like immediately folder itagainst something familiar.
And so I'm like shocking thisperson with so much like trust
and stuff that they don't put mein the sales bucket.
I'm actually inside the bucketof a friend, and so there's an
immediate trust.
And if I make them feel specialand if they go tell their
partner, oh, I had this likeamazing thing, you know, like if
I want to go back home, I'll belike I met this guy in Bali so

(20:04):
good, like we were recordingthis podcast.
It's gonna stick in my memoryand that's what you, how you
make a good dm.
You want them to remember itand most people don't think as
deep with the dms because it'skind of like content is
everything right, content islike the thing and like the dms
are an afterthought.
But it's's like you can just DMpeople and like make money with

(20:27):
zero followers.
Like my business partner Stevewe ran this as an experiment.
He has no profile photo, he'snever posted, he's never
commented.
It looks like he has a dodgybot thing.
He closes 100K in three monthsand then he wrote a book on sell
by chat.
He wrote the book.
It's it's like a 10 000 pagemini book and like he wrote how

(20:49):
to do it.
And he's like 10 000.
Jesus christ, yeah, 10 000.
So not 10 on page 10 000.
Um word not page.

Darren Lee (20:54):
I was like jesus 10 000 word, 10 000 word mini book,
but like it's the.

I think that there's an overemphasis or an
overweight, like.
I think content is.
Like I love content, it's sogood, like it's amazing.
But I think there's anoveremphasis on the content.

Darren Lee (21:13):
Well, people are princesses, so they think that
the content is just going to doeverything for them.
It's right.
And then it's like you know, afew of my friends are like, oh,
like, I'm not going to speak,I'm not going to speak, I'm not
going to.
It's like dating, the best wayto put it.
It's like dating.
Yeah, is that like there's atime to kind of not be super
pushy and like try to get him tosign the marriage cert, but at
the same time, someone has toinstigate the dance?

(21:34):
Yeah, so like true internetsuccess of it.
But I think the problem is alot of these creators not even
restricted linkedin, just ingeneral, instagram and even
youtube because youtube has aweird relationship with the
audience is that there needs tobe a conversion mechanism to get

(21:56):
the next step and I describe itas if you imagine your leg,
your knee, is the connectivetissue between the upper, upper
leg and lower leg without that,that there is no leg.
Okay, yeah, but most guys aretoo proud arrogant ego
princesses to be able to add inthe next step.

I would actually argue that it's not that Really
no, it's fear.

Darren Lee (22:17):
But I mean, if you're, let's say, for instance.

The classic example is a LinkedIn copywriter
who writes a post says my firsttwo years when I wrote content,
I made no money and now I made$3,000 in three hours and all I
think in my mind was like whydid you waste two years?
Like it's actually fear, it'speople.
We're very similar.

(22:42):
Like we've been chatting before.
Like you will just outreach tosomeone and have no shame in so
long I wouldn't care.

Darren Lee (22:47):
Well, I actually want to talk to you about the
beginning of your business.
You said you didn't make money.
You lost like 180K in the firsttwo years.
Was it 18 months?

Yeah, that was like purely based off me.
I'm not understanding businessmodels.

Darren Lee (23:00):
Yeah, because for us it was like the opposite.
Yeah, so I was working inrevolut, you're working in zoom.
I know we're jumping around,but yeah, basically when I I was
just so fucking disgruntledwith the startup world and I was
just exact same as zoom, justlike, yeah, so much pressure.
Yeah, when I went like ballsdeep and we had a done for you
offer yeah, so I just hammeredlemless and sales nav and then I

(23:26):
literally, I bro.
I got a 4k client.
I would honestly say withinlike, uh, the three weeks, and
then I actually got to thefucking infamous 10k amount in
around six weeks, yeah, but thenat 10k.
This is irony, someone who wassenior in product and revolut I
was making more money.
10k, bro, 10k usd.

I was like in singapore, wow USD.
I was like in Singapore.

Darren Lee (23:45):
So I was like fuck this, handing in my 60 day
notice and then I just like butthen?
So what I did was just showpeople didn't just appear right.
What I did was I worked inRevolut from Singapore till
midnight every night and thenI'd wake up at 6 with the
sunrise.
it's weird I wake up on thesunrise every day and I would
hammer, hammer LinkedIn and myemail from six till ten and then

(24:10):
go to the gym at ten, and atten I would literally be peeling
myself off my laptop bookingcalls, taking these most
embarrassing calls ever, but Idid it because I couldn't depend
on the traffic on my podcast.
The traffic on the podcast wasgood to get the online business
bros, but it wasn't good to getthe online business bros yeah,
but it wasn't good to get thehigh ticket clients yeah.
And like to this day, like Istill like we don't do that

(24:31):
anymore.
But I'm saying like if you're ina position you can pull the
sales lever, the lever, whileyou pull the content, and you
improve your funnels and thesystems in the backend.
Before we go any further, Ihave one question for you.
Do you want to generate moreleads for your business?
Well, I've put together anentire system how anyone can use
a podcast to generate moreleads for their business and the

(24:52):
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(25:14):
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Yeah, I think I've got two stories that I think
will really, because I reallyagree with you, and I've got the
story myself where I did thesame thing.
But I want to show a comparison, because we chatted before this
about like brand and personalbrand, and we were chatting
about someone who, like maybeisn't making as much money as
they should be for theirpersonal brand based on their
follow account.
And while I think brand mattersa lot and an example to use is

(25:43):
I worked at zoom videocommunications, so zoom the zoom
during covid.
So I worked there before covid,during and after.
So before covid, zoom had nobrand and I'd reach out to
people and I'd call a legal firmin sydney and be like, hey,
like you guys want zoom meetingsand they're like, ah, we just
meet in person, like we don'tneed this, like this was all the

(26:05):
time like, and I was like, okay, because we don't have a brand
either.
Like they use people, use skype, that was the thing, oh yeah,
and so like.
And they're like we don't needto do skype meetings.
And then covid happened and then, like my dad's friends from
high school he hasn't chatted toin 10 years would call me up,
matt, we need to meet, licensemeetings for our thing, whatever
, and everyone was freaking out.
And then after that I couldjust email anyone.

(26:28):
I booked 750 meetings in a yearat Zoom and it seems really
fancy, right.
All I did was I just pulled out80,000 emails out of the
database and I sent an email andsaid hey, it's Matt from the
Zoom Sydney office, I'm wantingto see if I can get on a call
and set up your Zoom.
That's a lot of scent and Ibooked like 750 meetings and

(26:48):
like made boatloads of moneyfrom it.
So like 750k, right.
So I booked 750 meetings in ayear, but I closed like multiple
millions of dollars like adeals, like I closed one of the
biggest Zoom phone deals.
It was in small, mediumbusinesses history Like it was
like most random deal ever.
But it wasn't skill, it wasjust brand.
That's what actually did it forus Interesting.

(27:09):
When I left Zoom, though, Ileft and I went to another
software company because theypaid me a lot more money, but
then a guy that I used to dodeals with at Zoom.
He owned another consultingcompany where he did telephone
bill auditing and I used to teamup with him on deals so he'd be
a partner and he'd get a cut ofthe deal, and we became good
friends and he's like dude, likecome work with my company and

(27:30):
like be a co-founder, you do thesales.
And I did like the the otherthing and I was like all right.
But then I arrived at a companywhich had zero brand I had.
I did not understand marketing.
We were called tele, whichsounds like telemarketing dodgy,
and our website looked like itwas built on Windows 95.
It was so bad and we bothdidn't have design skills and I,

(27:52):
like the same tactics didn'twork and I was like, oh shit.
And so I was like, what do I do?
And so I did something similarto what you did was I only knew
how to cold call, so I justlocked myself.
We subleased a legal firm wehad like because we thought we
needed to be in office.
So we had a legal firm and theyused to have pod rooms and I'd
lock myself in the room for twohours every day, an hour in the

(28:13):
morning, an hour at night.
I couldn't leave to pee and Ijust had to keep hitting dial,
just, dial, dial, dial, likejust, constantly.
And I just.
But I ended up booking, likelike I think it was 150 meetings
in about five months and weended up closing like a million
dollars of revenue that year andsince then Michael's closed way
more, but like.
It was harder to do but it waspossible.

(28:38):
But the difference between thetwo was with Telesense I had to
create the brand and the trustmyself from initial contact.
So my script for a cold callwould be like you know, I'd be
like hey, bill, it's MatthewLeCabe calling from TeleSense.
I know you weren't expecting mycall.
I was just chatting to anotherclient, another partner,

(28:59):
business of yours, my watchAnthony there, and he mentioned
your name.
I just want to check if you gota couple of minutes to hear the
reason for the call.
And they'd be like, oh yeah, Iknow, anthony, yeah, cool, sweet
.
I'd be like, yeah, cool, we'rerunning this free bill audit for
Aboriginal rural healthcarecenters.
Just like yourself, I just wantto schedule a time when we can
come in and actually do it foryou.

(29:20):
I know you've got a 10,000 andI'd name drop two others and I'm
like, cool, lucky, freetomorrow at 9am or the next day.
And they'd be like, oh, yeah,cool, we'll do this thing.
And then blah, blah, blah.
And then we'd lock it in andwe'd have the meeting.
But just from that script, thatone script, I could create the
illusion of brand throughpsychology, through a positive
association with someone.

(29:41):
He knew a thing that we weredoing, positive association with
someone.
He knew a thing that we weredoing.
You mentioned a lot aboutpositioning.
I said we have a special auditfor aboriginal uh, rural health
care centers.
I just named it that right, itwasn't, we didn't do anything.
Like it didn't, it didn'tmatter, but it's, it's.
The coming back to the point islike you don't need a brand like
it's easier.
With the brand 100 it's easier.

(30:02):
But like the excuse that peoplehave, what I truly believe is
that they're just really scaredof being rejected.
Like they just have a deep,deep insecurity.
And if someone gets intobusiness and then you into
business, like me and you, we'rea high D on the disc profile
and the personality types, we'reboth really high D.

(30:23):
We're quite rare.
It's not that common to havethat and so what we do just
automatically is different toother people.
But like other people, likethey will sit there terrified,
like terrified to actually reachout to someone, even to send a
warm DM to someone to like theirstuff, and so they hide behind

(30:45):
the content and they do contentfor a year or two, like as an
excuse when they could just pickup the phone and just call
someone.

Darren Lee (30:52):
It's ridiculous yeah .

It's ridiculous and the content itself, like the
definition of, like the contentmarketing that I said is it's
to enable you to have moreconversations.
Exactly that's like you do apodcast and people would listen
to it and it's a really greatpodcast.
It enables you to have moreconversations.
Exactly it's that's like you doa podcast and people would
listen to it and it's a reallygreat podcast.
It enables you to have moreconversations, like dude, that's
great.

Darren Lee (31:10):
The biggest thing for me is that cause like, uh,
some of my clients actually sayit.
They're like, oh, do you stillneed to be doing all the
podcasts you're doing?
And for what you think?
Yeah, I do it because basically, when I message someone or I'm
speaking to someone, they'lljust search my name on YouTube,
they'll see it and they'll goyeah, this is sick, whatever.
And then I do it because Iactually just enjoy it as well,
right, but it's almost like wedon't know how the levers pull

(31:34):
in the right way.
But the biggest thing there,you know this is James Camp.
He was sitting in that exactsame chair and I was like I
don't understand why someonedoesn't do something like that,
doesn't like pick up the phoneand drop a message, right,
because if I'm making zerodollars a month and we're in
month fucking 14, right, whatelse do I have?

(31:57):
Like, what's the alternative?
It's the antithesis of theaction.
So if the action is the message, or if the action is to post,
or if the action is to getbetter, forget the DMs for a
second.
I just say in general, it'slike to build a better funnel or
even to learn ads man, facelessads, just fucking figure it out
.
If there's that which is to getthe goal, and the antithesis of
the goal is you being back withyour parents and being like fat

(32:18):
and lazy, why are you not doingsomething that brings you
forward?
I don't, I don't get it.
And he said he has a lot ofclients paying a lot of money to
just won't do the action.
And I'm like I.
I personally, I don'tunderstand that.

This mindset, it's just it.
Like it's just a hundredpercent mindset.
Like, if I take myself back tomy like what I cause.
Like when I was 16, fuck allsuper lost kid was with a really
bad crowd.
Two of my best friends atschool went to jail.
Like, even though I look likeI'm look, I look like I'm pg-13

(32:50):
right like you wouldn't thinkthat you're a whatsapp?
yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah, solike because I dropped out of
school and I like lost myselffor a long time and it's because
I just didn't find my crowd andI used to go party like all
that for ages, for so many years, and I'm living that now.
But like I was so lost but if Ireflect back to the mindset I
had back then, like I wouldn'tdo the actions like at all and

(33:11):
it took me till like I finally,in 2012, at the end I started
crossfit and I started hangingout with like successful people.
So, like one of my good mates,greg, he was like a ceo at 28,
like weapon right.
So the guy jj, we becamefriends with, he was the ceo of
the huffington post in australia.
Then he became, see, he waslike big executive at ebay and
then we started hanging out withthese people and like we were

(33:32):
kind of the same and I was likeI had this other distinct sense
of reality and I was like ashift where I was like, oh man,
like I just used to think thatall these corporate people,
whatever, just like crazy, smartor whatever, like we're just
all humans.
But then I started goingthrough that journey and then,
you know, I started makingcoffee.
I started competing in likecoffee, art tournaments and
stuff and travel aroundaustralia doing it.

(33:53):
I then opened a business with mybrother, a coffee shop.
We owned that for two years.
Like we used to have, like youknow, heaps of people coming in
there.
We kind of built a brand.
I kind of came out of my shella bit there as well.
But then after but I was stillnot like I was still playing
video games and doing all thatshit, even though I was like
playing CrossFit and stuff likethat.
So I still didn't havedirection.
And then we sold the cafe andthen I was like what do I do?

(34:14):
And then my accountant was likeyou're pretty good at
accounting, you should apply,you know, with my friend's
account.
And I was like I was like I'm27.
I'm not in the cafe game.
I was going to open another bigcafe but there's no money in it
.
So like my subconscious wastelling me I can't do it.
And I was like I can't, likethere's no money.
And so I went and interviewed,got the job, and I was like I'm

(34:37):
a business person, I work incorporate.
Because for all those years Ialways thought like after a year
I was doing full-timeaccounting and I was doing
full-time university because Iwas just pushing myself, because
I had this like proof thingbecause I dropped out of school
and I ended up like literallyhaving a breakdown and I had to
move home with my parents forsix months.
So I was just fucked Like.
I was just like it was justreally bad anxiety.

(34:58):
It was just so bad.
From what it was.
When I really reflect back, itwas because I was doing things
that was totally against what Ibelieved.
So it was like I was.
I was doing accounting and Iwas pushing through and I was
doing full-time uni and I'd belike, oh, it's okay, I can like
out crossfit or daily sunlightin the morning, the thing.
And like I started reading thisbook by this guy called aubrey

(35:20):
marcus and he's like own the day, own your life, think that's
the book.
And he's like this super hippiedude, but like he wasn't back
then but um, started readingthat stuff.
But like it's all just, it wasall just a bandaid from the
thing that like I knew I shouldbe doing, which was like the
creativity and all that kind ofstuff.

Darren Lee (35:46):
And so I like I have to change.
This is fucked.
And so how did you?

feel when you were back home, like what did you do
for that six-month period?
I still worked in accounting,because and I used to have to
like get the bus with my brotherjust to work he worked in the
city as well I couldn't even bemyself and for the eight hours I
was sitting there, like thetype of anxiety I had is like
there's like five differenttypes.
There's one called impendingsense of doom, where you think
you're going to die, and soyou're just like sharp pain
right in my chest.
My hand would go numb and Ialways think I'm having a heart

(36:09):
attack or a stroke or somethinglike that.
Gosh, but it was like, when Ireally reflect back, it was
because I was doing somethingthat I was so against, but I
thought I needed to because ofsociety's norms.
I thought I dropped out ofschool so I needed to go to
university, like I needed to dothe right thing, but my gut was
telling me like it was like thewrong thing as well at the same
time.
And it's like a lot around,like you know, and so I think

(36:32):
about my mindset pre then islike so different, and then I
started searching.
I was like fuck it, I'm goingto do whatever.
Like I'm just going to find howdo I make as much money as
possible?
Like, how do I make as muchmoney as possible, like, because
I knew money was a ticket out,because money buys time, which
buys freedom.
And then I found sales and thenI found, you know, I applied to
heaps of jobs and then Iluckily got a job at Zoom, like,
which is awesome.

(36:53):
And then I kind of found myselfand then just worked 12 hours a
day like a dog when I was thereand just like found it.
But like I think back to thatpoint and pre even breaking down
, I was like there's no way Iwould do this stuff.
So it's like it actually takesa certain something in someone's
life to like if you go to anyhuman on the street and you're
like here's these 10 numbers,just cold call them, they'll

(37:14):
like their heart will be goingat 150 beats per minute and
stuff like that, and they justwon't be able to do it.
And it's just so much of it isaround like maybe someone hasn't
come to that breaking point tobe able to do it that hard, but
it requires, like you to shiftas a human.
Like you have to likecompletely change into like what

(37:34):
society is and you probablyhave a similar thing is like now
, if you go back I think I heardyou talking about it when you
go back home, it's like you,you're chatting to everyone.
You're like I feel, like I'm, Idon't go.
Yeah, it's like you're like Ican't, I can't relate yeah so I
think just a lot of people likethey're a lot of personality
types, can't actually push forthat, but like it just requires,

(37:55):
like you need to kind of changeas a person.
But you all need to evolveright.
You know where you are rightnow.

Darren Lee (38:01):
You know, I think, like the, those evolutions are
more creative, though they'remore enjoyable.
Now you still need to break theshackles of what you believe,
yeah, but like you're stillevolving quite a lot.

But it's even like accepting that you can evolve.
It's like a lot of people justlike they'll just say I'm gonna
go to the gym or I'm gonna do doit tomorrow and I'll just like
make this excuse, like I.
I just believe that most thingscome down to mindset and just
like they haven't like thereason say I push hard is
because I have this like deepdeprivation in me.
I was like, oh no, I'm gonnalike there's it's like

(38:33):
deprivation that causes it aswell.
But I think so many people justlive this life of like
mediocrity, but it just hasn'tgotten that bad yet, so they
just don't need to.

Darren Lee (38:41):
Have you read 10x easier than 2x?
No, I haven't read it.
What is it?
You'll love it, man.
Yeah, leaps are actually easierthan trying to double your
business.
Yeah, but it's me, it's.
It's mainly a psychology andalmost like a like a personal
development book, more soanything else.
It's more the person that needsto change.
And now you might think like,oh, like, okay, 10x means I'm

(39:04):
selling a course for an agency.
It's not like that.
The logic is like the personmust want to make those quantum
leaps.
I didn't say the word needs,they don't need to do it.
No one needs to make 10 milliona year, yeah, but they.
But they want to do it out ofcuriosity, genuine interest, and
just basically like almost likea, like a love for what they're
doing.
Versus when you need something.
When you need something, thenyou're going to act from anxiety

(39:26):
, like stress, pressure, yeah,and then you're going to look
barely, barely, to x yourbusiness at best.
So the other aspect of that islike the gap and the gain.
So great entrepreneurs who arelooking to follow curiosity.
I'm thinking of someone likeDan Martell.
He lives in the game Game.
The gain is like oh look, whatelse can I learn?

(39:47):
Oh, there's a child over herewho's 14.
What can he teach me aboutbeing?
present and he's always lookingfrom a game perspective.
The gap is all I don't haveenough, or my sales team are
shit.
My conversion's only X amount,y amount.
Therefore, they're still tryingto grow their business, but
they're not doing it in a way.
That's basically like openingup to the whole world.

(40:07):
And the last aspect then of itis the infinite game versus
finite game.
Right, if you're constantlythinking like I need this to
work, it needs to work.
It's like a football game itcomes to an end after 90 minutes
and then it all comes crashingdown, whereas looking at it from
an infinite perspective meanscheck this sales call.
It was shit.
I learned a few things.
Let's get better.
I did this conversation onLinkedIn.

(40:29):
It didn't go as well.
Let's put another post up andlet's start another one, because
then you're never.
You never have to make itbecause you've already made it
and now it's just refined.
Dude the position you're at 33,myself at 28.
Technically, we could startworking for quite some time.
Let's put it that way.
So what we're doing is we wantto do it and we're like fuck bro

(40:50):
.

and we're just chilling on Saturday talking
about this and I was like howare you doing this?
For your offer.
What are you doing?

Darren Lee (40:55):
here because neither of us need it, but we just want
to do it and it's a huge shift.
Buy that book before you leave,oh well, just tell me after and
I'll remember and I'll buy ityou have to get a book because
it's a huge psychological shiftand then with that, then your
returns, asymmetrical returns,the stuff that actually was.

Saha bloom taught me that, yeah, years ago, yeah,
uh, which was like, look, onlyin the asymmetry just sales yeah
, as asymmetric, asymmetricalreturns for instance yeah, it's,
I think I really like the waythat he actually put that there
as well.
Danzel, it's pretty cool I.
The way I think about it iswhenever I always like to

(41:34):
reflect back on my past self andlike how I thought, because I
think a lot of people havesimilar experiences and they go
through different things as well.
But, like, do you remembergoing to uni or school?
Or do you remember Maslow'shierarchy of needs?
Yeah, yeah, so like, I reallyremember that.
So like, if you're dying ofthirst or food, that's all you
think about.
So your, or food, that's allyou think about.
So your, your brain can onlytake up a certain amount of ram

(41:57):
in it such a good point, and solike.
So you've got just the basichealth stuff and then afterwards
you got security, and thenyou've got like financial
security, like you're just yourpersonal welfare and stuff like
that.
This is why, like a lot of youknow, you see people online.
They're just like, oh, someonewho's in like poverty or
whatever.
They're just just like, oh,just get himself out of it at
work, and it's like it'sliterally impossible.

(42:18):
Like it's actually, there's areason why the only people that
do it are the ones who have 150IQ and like that's it, like it's
literally impossible, like theyactually can't do it, but it's

(42:39):
because you're stuck, even whenyou're in a job.
It's like you actually can'ttop out, like you can't move
through the stages because youget the third stage, which is
like social, and then you've gotlike personal growth and then
self-actualization, right.
Like you can't move through thestages and you can't actually
get to the point, like DanielPriestley calls it, like he
calls it like the flow state.
You can't move through thestages and you can't actually
get to the point, like danielpresley calls it.
Like he calls it like the flowstate of like, where you

(43:00):
actually like you're open andyou creative and like you know I
just like we were chatting likeliterally three days ago and I
was like I'll just fly over sixhours to bali and we just hang
out and I was like I just I didnot realize I was like yeah bro.
Yeah, my brother called me thismorning at 6 30 am, which is 9
30 his time and he's like yo,we're driving to come rent a
house.
Like we'll come to your house,let's go get a coffee.

(43:21):
And I'm in bali.
And he's like what the fuck?
Like?
And I was all used to thepodcast.
I just want to get away andlike chill and ride and stuff
like that.
Who's been riding since I'vebeen here as well which has been
really fun, yes, and then likebut I people are kind of like
trapped in like these levels andthey're kind of stuck.
So they might get past thesecurity level, where they're a
bit financially secure orwhatever, but then they get

(43:41):
through like the social leveland like that's where you see,
like the social media, this Iwas stuck in the social level,
probably in like 2012, likewhere I was financially secure
but I just was wanting to provemyself with other individuals.
So, like my clothing, like allthis kind of stuff, like it
really mattered and and ofcourse, it matters to an extent,
it's how you present.
But people are just like stuckin this like level and they're
like they're all they'rethinking about is like

(44:03):
impressing other people andthey're stuck in this Instagram
trap and stuff.
But like, I actually don'tthink like it's so difficult to
break out and actually get to apoint of like personal growth
and self-actualization unlessyou actually own your own
business and you have actualfreedom.
Like, and if you look at somany people like, why are like,

(44:24):
if I come, as someone said, thisstat but the the amount of
people that do ironmans ortriathlons and stuff is like
100x in like 10 years.
I don't quote exact stat, butit's it's an insane amount.
I remember listening to it like,why are there run clubs now and
everyone's like rejectingdating apps and all this kind of
stuff?
Cause they're like they'retrying to find this higher level
of self-actualization.
So they're stuck in this socialpart, but like they can't

(44:46):
actually like break throughbecause as humans, we're meant
to be like creative beings.
Like before I did my ownbusiness.
All this kind of stuff right,like I couldn't imagine just
like randomly sitting there andwriting for three hours.
Yeah, like, like it.
Like you can't even like fathomit because you're thinking
about, like I've got to do thesethings to impress other people,
or I'm addicted to video gamesor like, and so you're actually

(45:08):
like you're in a different levelof like consciousness, I feel.

Darren Lee (45:11):
Anyway, or you're trading your time for whatever
that may be so like at theweekend.
You're what you're drawing,you're ironing your or you're
trading your time for whateverthat may be so, like at the
weekend, you're, you're earningyour shirts, you're doing your
cleaning.

That's another level where it's like you know,
when you can't control yourincome.
You can't control it Like youcan't.
That's why I love sales so muchand probably why you love it as
well.
It's like you, you can workharder and earn more money.
Like there's just I rememberthinking, like when I grew up,
like I'd say to like my, becausemy dad, he owns a small
business, he owns a panelbeading shop and he gave us the

(45:39):
sickest life, like it was sogood, but like he came from like
an immigrant mindset, becausehis parents were refugees and so
he was very much around likeyou do everything yourself, and
like very safe and stuff likethat, which I'm not against,
it's like amazing.
But like I always used to thinkgrowing up I was like why are we
doing the gardening right now?
Like yeah, why can't we like,why can't we do other things?

(46:01):
Like I don't understand, likewouldn't we want to do other
things, to like build, buildstuff, and so I never understood
that.
So I think there's this likethe time trade money thing, but
if you're in a job it'simpossible because your income
is stuck, yeah, and so like yourbrain doesn't think about it.

Darren Lee (46:15):
Yeah, you just can't expand it.

You can't even fathom it.
And you like haven't even.
Like if you say to someone, hey, like, if I think back to my
past self, like where I used tobe, if I said to myself, hey,
spend four hours journaling on aSunday, there's no way I would
do that.
Like I of course I would havehad to see my friends, I'd have

(46:37):
like I would like if I didn't goout I'd have a sense of FOMO
because I was in the sociallevel.
And then, you know, past thepoint, you know, when I, when I
kind of was in accounting, Ireally regressed down back into
like straight up, like fear ofmy life or ending and stuff like
that.
So I went right down to thebottom.
So when I was like so anxiousfor six months that I couldn't
think about anything, I couldncouldn't think about anything
Like it was like so you can'tactually.
But I think so many people arejust like, they're just stuck

(46:58):
and they can't even like breakout because it's like they can't
fully express themselves andtheir actual abilities.
And so it's like when you meetbusiness owners, like we've been
to a lot of masterminds, you'vegot a mastermind like all that
kind of stuff, right we.
All that kind of stuff.
Right, we've got one.
When you speak to businessowners, it's like it's just, you
have a different conversation.
It's like it's like you're onanother planet.

Darren Lee (47:18):
It's just because they're just trying to always
prioritize time over everythingelse.
And that's why, even likeliving in bali, we've
housekeepers, we have, yeah,cooks, cleaners, everything.
Just because I value my owntime more and it's not like, oh
my god, like I want to be paidas much's just that I just don't
want to do those things.
So it's like you move away fromthat bullshit.

(47:39):
And then also, the thing aboutsales is the fact that I always
say that you know, put yourselfor myself in the fucking goby
desert with a small cell phone,we'll find a way out, yeah, like
we'll find our way out.
So I think that's why I kind ofstarted that question, which was
like how can someone not do it?
Because the whole point withthis is that you learn the skill
and then you also what'sinteresting as well.
If you look at podcasting, youlearn how to communicate yeah,

(48:02):
right, which is just likesomeone speaking.
You listen, you listen.
You'll find it's veryinteresting too.
The big thing about podcastersis that, well, firstly,
everyone's trying to beat chriswilliamson, no one's trying to
beat themselves, but then, whenthey get past that stage,
they're trying to say somethingintelligent.
And if you're trying to beatthemselves, but then, when they
get past that stage, they'retrying to say something
intelligent.
And if you're trying to saysomething intelligent, you're
just genuinely not listening.
You just you can't.
It was Rick Rubin that actuallybroke that down.
It was like the way your brainworks, it can't process and then

(48:25):
articulate something new at thesame time.
So you're just physically notlistening to someone.
Yeah, so that gives you a goodunderstanding of communication.
So I was able to go into salescalls or I was able to do public
speaking and read the room.
I do a lot of workshop stuff.
I can just see if someone'sfucking bored for the most part,
but then you can articulate it,and what I'm trying to say with

(48:47):
this is that you learn a skillof like communication,
psychology, sales, and then it'slike okay, I want to learn
copywriting.
Well, I don't know how to write, but maybe it's like all this
stuff over here and maybe I canapply these principles yeah to
over here, yeah, and then we getthe content and the sales in
place.
Now I want to ask you about thefunnels on it, because you, you

(49:09):
speak a lot, but most peopledon't actually have funnels or
even know what they are.
How much of that was awakeningto you when you started working
with people that they just don'tunderstand the backend Just
fucking don't.

I just it depends on what level of business
they're at.
So if we're just starting out,they shouldn't build a funnel.
They shouldn't Like if you wantto build a business like
$10,000 a month, just pick outthe phone and call people.
You know, like literally, likeit's literally, like you don't

(49:42):
need a funnel or anything like alot of the time, like things
are just excuses because, like,we feel good when we build stuff
.
So when I started our business,so I like I didn't.
I thought first I need to buildeverything, then I need to sell
people in and then, once I sellthese people, and then then
I've got to get new leads.
And so that's how logical howyou think about it, that's how
you build a business.
So because I lost $180,000 inthe first like eight months

(50:04):
because I just went out, Ibought HubSpot Enterprise it was
like $15,000 a year.
I had all these staff and stuffand I was like I just I rented
an office thing, it was just onefor me, but like it was just
all this stuff that I bought,but like it was just like
literally pointless.
Like but I just thought youneeded it.

(50:24):
But like that, when I reallykind of balled back to it and
then like I just realized and Iwas like, oh, actually it's the
other way around, like danielpriestly talks about it, where
you know the first thing yousolve is leads, then sales, then
you build something, then youbuild the thing, and I was like,
oh, wow, I got this so wrong.
and so, like a lot of peoplewhere I think I do think funnels
and stuff matter, but likeevery single post you make on
socials or every dmsn is a minifunnel in itself yeah it's like

(50:47):
it's all metadata that you'releaving in places where people
are coming back to you and so,like most people, when it comes
down to like funnels, it's likeif they're just starting out
like you just gotta talk to morepeople.
Like the, the the biggestproblem with people starting out
is if you were on a bus right,you know, no one speaks on a bus
anymore.
Right, 20 years ago theyweren't spoken the bus.

(51:08):
If you said to them hey, justgo talk to that random human,
they'd be like no way, no way,I'm gonna do that.
I'm so scared they they mightthink I'm an idiot.
That's like the problem.
That's the actual problem.
They're too scared to putthemselves out there for like
any of their own reasons.
But, like, once you get pastthat point and then once you
start talking to people, likeusually the only thing if I can
get someone to just like like,I've got this one client,

(51:30):
pranjal.
He was like he was 25, like andfor four months, for four months
on LinkedIn, he made no money,like, he made nothing.
And he was like living inCanada.
He's formerly from India, so hewas like kind of doing starting
there, he was trying to do hisbusiness thing and we started
working together.
He got a deal with me because Isaw he was, like you know,

(51:55):
super, like driven and I waslike dude and he'd pest me with
everything.
But he just did it and 12months later he's made 150 grand
cash and he's like dude.
I can't actually be in Canadaanymore because I'm around these
bad friends.
I'm going to move back home tomy parents in India for six
months to build a business andhe India for six months to build
the business.
And I was like about to go onhis second holiday in Thailand.

(52:16):
But, like, I actually got on acall with him last week and we
looked at his DMs and I readthem.
They were terrible.
It was so bad.
He pitched in every message andI was like dude, we have to fix
this.
He was taking meetings in hisparents' bedroom spare room in
the background with a cap on andstuff.
And I was like, bro, you can'tdo this, for, like corporates,
you're selling to nine-figuree-commerce brands.

(52:36):
And so just the sheer fact thathe just muscled his way there
and he didn't look professionalor anything, he just made it
Just so, he didn't need anything.
And now I told him I was like,okay, cool.
When you get on a call, blowthe background, wear a collared
shirt and no hat.
As as bad as it is, it reallymatters, um, and then because,

(52:57):
like in the background it waslike it looked hectic, his
background, I was like dude.
And then I was like okay, andthen when you're speaking to
people, just don't pitch in thefirst message, just talk to them
three times before you do.
And he closed like a massivedeal the next day and he's like
dude, it worked.
But like that, from the finalside of things, I don't want to
talk about that tactical stuff,but, like most people, you don't
need anything.
This stuff that's online.
You don't need it.
You just need you and a cellphone.

(53:18):
That's it.
Like you, just.
You can.
Just, like you know, if youwant to sell to accountants or
lawyers, just call youraccountant.
Like I just call my accountantPaul.
But hey, paul, I'm thinkingabout doing this offer for
accountants.
Can I take you to lunch?
I'll state place that you likeand kind of just ask you
questions and you're like, yeah,sure, let's go to it all right.
Or if I don't, if I don't havean accountant, I'll call my dad
and be like dad, do you know anyaccountants?

(53:40):
Do your friends know anyaccounts?
My family friends and I'd take,like five, an amount to lunch
and, like I'm thinking aboutdoing an offer for accountants,
I want to know you'll learn morein these five lunch meetings
and you'll like look, you'vethought about for a year before.

Darren Lee (53:52):
Spent six months building something right.

You spent 12 months ideating the idea.
It's nothing.
And then you realize it waslike this one tiny little piece
that then ended fixed.
And then after that, to get aclient, you just say, hey, look,
I go back to the account andI'll be like Paul, can I just
work for you for free and justdo it.
I'll come into your office andI would just sell something
that's like cheap.
I'd say to the next person hey,I did this thing for Paul, we

(54:15):
really liked it.
Nick, do you want it as well?
Like it's 500 bucks, I'll comein and do it in your office.
And then I just do that andlike and then I just keep going.
And then later on, once I'veworked with, like, you're taking

(54:35):
care of your kids and yourfamily and stuff, and so you
just do that.
And then, when you do it heapsof times, then you're like oh, I
know the problems, I can startwriting about it now.
But, like most of the, go backto the copywriters on LinkedIn
super introverted, super scaredto talk to people.
They wrote online for two years.
They wrote online for two yearsbecause, like, it took me two
years to get my first client.
Now I make three grand in threehours and you're like, dude,

(54:57):
you could have got your firstclient in literally 10 seconds.
You could have just like calledyour dad and asked if they had
a friend.
So it's just like, there's this, all this, you don't need this
stuff.
But then when you have thisstuff and when you are making
money like if we're talkingfunnels, like most people should
just have a straight leadmagnet funnel, it's just, if

(55:18):
I've worked with five or 10accountants and I help them with
this thing, then I'm just goingto package it all up in
something for free.
I'm just going to put it on myprofile and we say give me your
email and then you can get it.
And then I'll write contentthat talks about the problems
that I'm solving the accounts.
I'm going to demonstrate, not,like you know, talk about myself
.
I'm just going to demonstrate.
And then if I do seven posts ina week, then on Friday, if I

(55:40):
get five leads and every otherday got zero, well, that post
worked, so I write more.
So the impressions don't matter.
No, not at all.
It's just and I've heard youtalk about this a lot you can
probably write content that'llget 20 likes, but you'll get
five leads Because the talent isso small, right, that's the
whole logic.
That's what you're trying to goafter, right?
Yeah?

(56:02):
So I think that's a big bullshitwith the whole online space.
It's hard because I don't thinkanyone means badly about it,
but people will see they'll sella LinkedIn growth course and
they'll position around how togrow and get clients on LinkedIn
and they're not doing anythingthat's like bad.
But people going into it justhave some type of an assumption

(56:25):
that if they produce contentthey'll get clients and it's
probably just because content iseveryone's like.
All in on content, content,content, right.
And the other thing is when youput out a piece of content and
you get 10 likes if you've hadzero likes, you get dopamine,
which feels like a rewardmechanism and so.
But the problem with like, yeah, you never want to like talk

(56:45):
and tell everyone your goalslike you kind of don't want to
do it like I had.
I had breakfast with derricksievers one time and he's wrote
anything you want.
He built this company cd baby,he's got this TED talk, it's got
2 million thingies and I hadbreakfast with him.
We chatted for a few chats aswell.

Darren Lee (57:01):
He didn't want to come on the pod because we're he
hates pods.
He wanted to come on it.
Is that now that we're makingit, we're more like make money
online space.
He was like, yeah, I have anemail where he goes, I don't
care about money.
The majority of my guests runcontent businesses.
They've used content as themain element of their business
to drive more revenue and buildtheir influence online.

(57:22):
We've been doing this through apodcast for many years.
We have many guests, clientsand even customers use a podcast
as their main source of drivingmore revenue for their business
and building their influenceonline, and we're offering a
handful of spots to book in acall with our team to learn how
you yes, you can leverage apodcast to generate more revenue
for your business and driveyour influence online.

(57:44):
Many of our clients andcustomers start from nothing,
but each one of them are actiontakers and they want to learn
more about how to build apodcast and a brand right around
their business.
So if you want to learn moreand you're really interested in
building a podcast, check outthe link down below and book in
a free call with our customersuccess manager and he will
guide you to how you can buildand generate more revenue from

(58:06):
your podcast this year.

Yeah, he doesn't like he's fucking hilarious,
that guy.
But like he did this TED talkand it's five minutes long and
you can watch it and it'samazing, he.
But like he did this TED Talkand it's five minutes long and
you can watch it, it's amazing.
He's like don't tell anyoneyour goals, because when you
tell people your goals like outloud, it just doesn't happen,
because then it creates thislittle thing in your brain.
If you tell people, you feellike you've half got there.
So people are like oh, I'mdoing a new year, I'm going to

(58:32):
shred 10 pounds or 10 kilos.
Guys, I'm doing it, I'mannouncing it on social media,
I'm like doing this thing,telling all their friends, and
then three weeks later they eatpizza again.
Like what?
It doesn't happen, because whenyou externalize it and say it,
you feel good, so you don't doit.

(58:56):
But what happens with socialmedia is there's this positive
feedback loop that's createdfrom this algorithm that's meant
to manipulate people.
That's the whole goal is tomanipulate you, to stay on the
thing.
And so if you do a post, itgets a thousand likes.
That means the platform got athousand times attention, a lot
of impressions.
So they want to engineer thatlike they actually do.
So they engineer the platformin a way for you to feel like
you got a reward based off that.
So that's why I really like thelead magnet funnel, because
then you see, like did I getleads?

(59:18):
And then there comes anotherdopamine hit that you get.
Because you can never escapethe dopamine hit of the platform
.
Even though I know it deep downinto my core, it still affects
me when I get low reach.
It does to everyone, it does,of course.

Darren Lee (59:34):
It's a status right it's like an internal driver,
but it's funny because the poststhat linkedin push the most,
yeah, are generally not onesthat you want anyway.
Right, they're not going to bevery specific because, if you
think about it, linkedin ontheir back end, forget about
your content.
They're going to put one that'squite broad in front of a broad
audience.
Yeah, so, even though you havea linkedin offer for me in the

(59:56):
podcast space, if a bunch offucking writers on twitter are
seeing this podcast offer,they're gonna like it's gonna be
non-congruent with linkedin aswell as them.
Yeah, there's a red flag.
So what I always say to ourclients because podcast is hard
to grow, right is that if youhad a million views per video, I
would be more concerned because, then you're getting a random
15 year old rightit's just, it's just

(01:00:18):
non-congruent, whereas if we getreally specific and there's a
lot of specificity then we knowas a result that, okay, we're
pulling in the right people atleast.
Yes, it's not a thousand leads,but at least it's the right
fucking leads.
Right, and you can leveragethat off, like what we're doing
now on youtube is I have like aBuild With Me series and it's
basically almost like an insightinto, like our programs and

(01:00:40):
it's a bit more specific.
And then we're having adifferent thought on the back
and, depending on where it is,some of it can go into Lead
Magnus, which again can be aseven day course or whatnot.
Or what I'm thinking you'redoing tomorrow is just standing
here and just doing a completefree course for youtube.
Yeah, so it's like how to start, grow and monetize a podcast.
It's three hours long.
You may have seen some of themon youtube like a free course.

Matt Lakajev (01:01:01):
So a guy I know, brian mark he's.
He did about 10 million dollarsa year last year on instagram
and he coaches people to becomeonline fitness coaches.
He said his biggest acquisitionchannel um is his youtube free,
free training, free training.
So have a look at his one.
That's converting like crazyand that's what Iman does every
year.

Darren Lee (01:01:18):
So every year he'll do like a 2025 business model.

Yeah.

And then every other video links back to that video.
Yeah, yeah.
And then you know, for us itcan just be a link into the
program which is a book of callfunnel, or it can go back to
points of leverage.
Right, content has a highasymmetrical return when done
correctly.
Whereas if I'm talking aboutlike the fucking four ways to

(01:01:41):
optimize your fuckingtestosterone on LinkedIn and
that takes off.
Well, that's not going to helpme.

Like, if we're talking about, just say,
linkedin in particular, right,99% of people are employees.
They're scrolling LinkedIn whenthey're sitting on the toilet
at 9.20 in the morning afterthey drank their double shot
latte and they're scrollingLinkedIn because they don't want
to scroll TikTok, because theperson in the next stall is
going to hear them scrollingTikTok.
So they're scrolling LinkedInand they see the motivational
quote post come out where it'ssaying bad manager is bad, and

(01:02:10):
they're like, yeah, fuck mymanager.
That's what's happening if youreally break it down to it.
Like that is linkedin.
It's a recruiter platform like.
That's the reason why I like it,though, because because it
looks, it feels like it's builton windows 95, which is right,
that yeah, it's so shit of aplatform that you know that no

(01:02:31):
one goes to it, so it's not sexyand so, like no one wants to
get on it.
And that's why, like it's sogood, because you think back to
school, demand and supply, right, like you know.
Just, you just look at thebasic economics.
When there's, you know, lesscompetition on something as well
, less supply, there's gonna belike more demand if someone's
gonna find the thing like it's,and so you're.
The reason linkedin's great isbecause you're competing against

(01:02:52):
like the worst stuff ever andlike it shows virality, because
that's a lot of the people thatare on the platform, because
it's a recruiter first platformand it's an arm of Microsoft.
I don't even know if they careabout the platform.
Linkedin, right, like, do theyactually care?
It's such a small percentage oftheir revenue.
It'd be so much better ifLinkedIn was independent,
because then it actuallyprogressed the thing.

Exactly.

At the same time.
I love that.
It sucks because, like you know, like I put out a lead magnet
post last week, right, we wrotea book on sell by chat how to
sell in the DMs and we created asell by chat a prompt, which is
a GPT that trains you on how tosell in the DMs, and it got
like 3,800 comments now and like135,000 impressions.

(01:03:34):
And like 135,000 impressionsand like that's enough leads for
a year.
Like lead magnets on LinkedInI'll talk to you about it after
how you can do one I want toshow you as well, because I
think that'll explode.
True, but like lead magnets onLinkedIn right now are like the
shit.
Like that's how you get.
Like we had a client.
He's like 23.

(01:03:54):
He worked in his name's Keenanhe works.
He worked a a client.
He's like 23.
He worked in his name's keenanhe works.
He worked a job.
He's like a junior, like he'slike sells e-commerce stuff.
But he was like working a joband like he joined our program
because he wants to do his ownthing on the side.
He was trying twitter for ages.
Like didn't work.
He did like his third leadmagnet got like 10 500 comments
in total and he like stoppedposting for four months because
he had so many leads.

(01:04:15):
He booked 35 calls inbound offthe post itself as well, but
that wouldn't happen on TikTokand all these platforms as well.
It's just such a differentplatform and there's no
competition there.
Everyone's like, oh, linkedin'sdead, the reach is down, all
this kind of stuff, and I'm likedude, the average earner earns

(01:04:36):
three times as much as everyother social platform.
There's no people that trollyou, like Twitter and Reddit.
They don't just destroy you.
The only thing people complainabout is that everyone's overly
positive.
Sure, that's fine, but you cango to SalesNav and you can look
at someone's profile and you cansay I know how much money you
have you can literally tell.

(01:04:57):
You can literally tell Like.
You can go to someone's profileand you can be like did they
work at McKinsey for four yearsand they go to this university
and they left to become aconsultant in a year.
Well, they probably earned$200,000 a year for these four
years.
Like and then I can use a toolto personality profile them.
But if you go to Instagram,you'd have zero idea.

And so everyone's Instagram.

Like what's the whatever the thing is the
automated outreach Money chat?
Yeah, fuck all this shit.
Right, like, which is likereally like Instagram works and
stuff, but like LinkedIn is likethe shit Dude everything works
when you work right and, ofcourse, it's just levels to the
game.

What I always tell people is like you know, when
they launched LinkedIn video allthe podcasters I was like this
is the best opportunity ever,because on.
Youtube.
You're competing with Mr BeastOn LinkedIn.
You're competing with Todd fromKPMG Accounting and, like
Todd's a fucking loser and he'sone step away from getting
divorced.

Right.

So the access you have is 10 times easier, so why
would you not utilize it Right?
And we've had our, so we've.
So I've always ran everythingoff LinkedIn for years and it
works perfectly.
However, because for B2C it'sInstagram is a big opportunity
yeah, we, and my head of brandis from an Instagram background.

Yeah.

He was like look, dude, let's just start running
up Instagram and I already havelike 11 or 12k on instagram.
Yeah.
So I was like okay, cool, yeah.
So I let him take care of it.
So he's been six, seven monthsat it.
We book a ton of calls oninstagram, but this is the whole
thing.
Instagram is infamous for guysthat are like bullshitters.
Yeah, so you'll get on the calland it goes like yeah, bro,

(01:06:28):
like all in, like I'm all in,bro, like where's the stripe
link?
All in.
And we send it over and he'slike yeah, yeah, yeah, just
gotta get something by the door,my dog just took a shit.
And then he comes off the calland then he like blocks, you see
you later.
Yeah, so it's just infamous forlike make believe yeah like guys
, will generally waste your timeand pretend that they're an
entrepreneur for an entrepreneurand there's no way to to map it

(01:06:50):
to logic.

Yeah, it's just you can't.
You can't see where they go toschool.
No, like you can't see wherethey go to school.
No, no, no, you can't see whotheir mutual connections are.
Linkedin is like, it's so OPthat like you can see, like into
the person, like you can kindof just tell how much money they
have and make estimates basedoff if you go to your explore
page.

You'll find people from your high school and you're
like this person's still making40k a year.
You can literally see it bytheir job, and there's a bunch
of benchmarks.
You can do with that as well,so it gives you a better insight
.
Yeah, is there anything elsearound there that I'm missing in
terms of how you basicallybring people from zero to six
figures or six figures?
I?

could.
I could just talk through theprocess if you want to start to
finish like a kind of coursething.
Of course I'll tell you likeone thing about linkedin though.
Like like I did a post and Iand I talked about like a lot of
people were shitting on zoomand I was like I did a post and
I was like fucking love zoom.
I had great three years there.
Thank you, eric you want, formaking the company.
Thanks for saving us alongcovet.
Fuck you people for, like youknow, shitting on it right, like
who cares?

(01:07:47):
They want to charge you 20bucks a license.
Now who gives a shit?
Like they literally saved youduring covet.
Right, the world would havefell into shit.
Like skype wasn't a thing likeyeah, but.
And I tagged eric yuan, the ceo,and he dm'd me.
He's a billionaire, like andand like we had like
conversation back and forth andlike literally, and he's like
yeah, this is my personal email,like if you want to reach out
and like, talk to me, which I'mgoing to do soon as well but

(01:08:08):
like the access who you can getonto is like it.
It's stupid.
Like you can't message peopleon instagram and stuff and do
that, and it's just.
It's just a big dick fest oninstagram.
That's it.
It is.
It literally is like how manyfollowers can I have and stuff
like that, with linkedin, I'llget like someone dm me who's
like 2 000 followers and theyhave like a 200 million dollar

(01:08:28):
company.
Yeah, and it's just like it.
I'm just like perplexed by.
I think it's just because the,the US, is that bad and people
just think it's shit yeah, andpeople just think it's super
woke, right.

They just think it's very like woke political and it
definitely was, I think, funnyenough, justin Welsh started the
online business niche inLinkedIn.
He started it, then you hadpeople like Matt Gray jump on it
and then like a few other guysand then that basically has
created a flywheel for people tobe comfortable with selling an

(01:08:58):
offer.
Yeah, like it gave peoplepermission they changed their
bio to like I help x do y in zyou know but he started that,
yeah, and then it's funnybecause he's such god status
that, like now, he's kind oflike he's not already out of
this or is he out of it, I don'tknow like I, like he's.

His business model is just different.
Right, like he started coachingand everyone should start with
a services-based business whereyou trade your time and money
and you should coach and youshould do things with people.
Yeah, and then he just likeleveled up, his content, got
better and he was like I cansell courses now, starting to
read, yeah I'm gonna be here forthe night exactly, um, yeah,
which is are you doubling downon youtube?

(01:09:35):
yeah, so I made like for likefive months I made youtube
content as well.
Um, and it did really well.
People converted if they wentto the youtube and stuff like
that.
And then I met with a youtubeconsultant.
He was like eight grand for anhour and I was like, but he's
got like a million subscribersand he was a weapon.
I might do it, but I've just gotother priorities first.
That will just make us way moremoney first and then I will

(01:09:55):
double down and 10x go ontoYouTube as well.
But like we just have some, wehaven't even tapped out LinkedIn
Like we literally can make.
Like this is like my scenariothat I'm in right now I have
like 15,700 leads in my Go HighLevel thing which have all opted
in for our lead magnets andlike 35% of phone numbers, or

(01:10:19):
33% magnets like and like 35percent of phone numbers they're
33 percent have phone numbers.
They've given me their phonenumber.
My lead man has a phone numberopt-in.
Now you're giving me a phonenumber and so like I haven't
even like we we've generated somany leads on linkedin like I
have unlimited.
Like I can't work the leads.
I'm hiring a sales team to workthe leads like we don't have,
like that's our issue it'strying to run a business.

That's the constraint.

It's a sales team working with leads leads Like we
don't have, like that's ourissue.
That's the constraint.
It's the sales team working theleads.
That's the pure constraint.
Like I was thinking aboutoutsourcing the sales team to
someone I know who's like aweapon, but like that's the
constraint.
And we've generated so manyleads from posting for two years
but from lead magnet posts likeyeah, our list is like 16,000
people.
It's like crazy.

Why it's like crazy?
Why not give?

people an opportunity to buy off the lead
miner Because I don't want tosell to everyone Like I don't
think it's.
Our program is correct for alot of people People I don't
like.
The reason I don't like a lotof stuff that's like B2C, a
bizzle offer right is likepeople take money from people
who like it's not right for them, like literally, and so I
actually don't let anyone buyonline.

(01:11:19):
They have to talk to someonefrom me and my team before they
buy.
You can't actually buy ourstuff.
And so it also adds a level oflike special.
It makes it a bit special aswell at the same time.
But like I've thought aboutthat.
But then to engineer a funnelthat you can sell something for
that much money is also likereally hard to do.
And like I funnel that you cansell something for that much
money is also like really hardto do, and like I've even seen
people with massive followingsand they can't do it and so it
just requires, and so like theconversion mechanism of chatting

(01:11:41):
to another human is like soeasy to control.
Like it's true, it just havethe constraint on the business's
conduct.
Yes, it's contact, and sothat's our constraint right now,
which I'm like not unhappyabout.
We make so much money.
Our partners are insane.
We don't pay for ads.
Like yeah, I'm living a goodlife, and like we're just now.
It's just like all right, we'regonna take it to 10 million
this year.
That's like the goal 10 millionprofit this year yeah, to the

(01:12:01):
end of this year and so like,because our margins are like
just crazy high like, and so wewant to take it to 10.
But with the lead volume we'vegot, we just we just look at the
kpis with like the amount chatswe start, the leads we touch
and all that kind of stuff, andwe just know how many will
convert.
Plus, we're bringing out like awhole bunch of high ticket
offers and we're bringing outthis thing called growth mode,
which is going to have softwarein it as well.
But it's all when you have acommunity of people, they just

(01:12:24):
tell you what they want and sowe know what they want and need.
And now we're just building allthis stuff and so we're going
to have a whole like setupthat'll come out for people that
will just have all theirfunnels and everything that just
like preloaded and done, andthey'll pay 20k a pot for that,
like really easily.
And so we're kind of likehormosing it with the licensing
model, like with gym launch.
Like that's what he was able todo.
He went and sold for all thegyms and then he just like

(01:12:45):
licensed it as an educationmodel and then they went like
bananas, like really quickbecause they sold it for like 16
grand or 42 grand a year.
42 rounds of the mastermind.
Yeah, the mastermind it was 16grand a year 42 grand was the
mastermind.
Yeah, the mastermind, it was 16grand a year for like to get in
up front.
So like that's our kind of maingoal right now.
And then think about YouTube.
It's like, yeah, it's good.
But I was, I went deep into itand then I realized one day I

(01:13:06):
was like this is a distraction,it's just like I wanted to do it
because I got the camera set upat home, I got all the stuff it
helps.
But like I know the constraint,like right now.
And so one day I was like I wasI was watching a video that, um
, I can't remember who it was,and I heard someone went to one
of paul mosey's conferenceconferences, um, in vegas, and

(01:13:28):
they just said we only fix oneproblem at a time.
And I was like what am I doingwith a to-do list with five
things on it?
Fuck that, there's just onething.
So so I just like went, I'mjust going to do one thing.
And Steve, my business partner,was like you focus on all the
tech stuff.
I'm just going to focus onselling more, like that's it.
And we're just going to buildthe team and like scale and just
focus on that.
So you're building the team,sorry along, and stuff like that

(01:13:55):
as well, and then scaling ityou know it just takes a while
to like bring people and trainthem up and stuff.

Yeah, of course, and it's also very difficult to
bring in killers.

it's like with the leads that we have.
When I look at other people'sconversions and stuff like that
we have enough leads to be doinglike 20 or 30 million dollars a
year, like, like that's like.
If I look at other coaches theamount of leads like I'm in a
mastermind with all the coacheswho do 20 million a year and
like like give each otherinformation and they're like
dude, you have so many leadsLike I'll do a lead magnet post
that like a one I did last weekand like 3,800 comments, like

(01:14:24):
it's like, and like 70% of them,or like a crazy high amount of
ideal clients.
So how can you solve thebottleneck issue?
You just have to hire morepeople and just train them and
put in systems.
Like that's literally it.
I can just text time, so I justlike I interview heaps of
people, bring them on.

But it's just sales reps.

Yeah, literally it's just reps and just doing
the reps, that's it.

And then for your fulfillment, how do you?

manage to fulfillment with.
There's no fulfillment.
Is there a community?
We have a community.
We've got group calls.
You post in the community, youcan DM me, and I've got other
coaches in there as well.
We've got three people fromLinkedIn who are coaches and I
have two calls a week that aremeant to go for an hour and a
half, but I stay on there forlike three hours each time
because people just keep askingquestions.
So I just stay on there.

(01:15:09):
And then I have a higher ticketcommunity which we haven't even
started really monetizing yet.
Like we just brought in like 10people and it's just like super
bespoke and there's two calls aweek.
So that's like for me there'slike three plus one and a half.
That's like nine hours of callsa week.
That I'll do.
We don't take any sales callsor anything like that.
It's just sold through.
Like we sell like 35% probablymaybe 30% is just guesstimating

(01:15:32):
through email.
It's just through running offercampaigns.
Like I'll just say, hey, we'regoing to be working with a small
group of business owners nextmonth to help them build a
LinkedIn lead generation systemfor their business.
Would you like to join us?
Send that once a month, get abazillion people come back.
Hey, cool, how ready are theoffer?
Doc?
Let me know if you're in or out.
And because I haven't pitchedthe person for like ever and I

(01:15:55):
just invite them, if they getthe email and are interested,
they just turn off.
But they've been marketed tofor like 12 months and they've
got all the value, all the leadmagnets, and then they lose a
big client.
Now I thought, yeah, I'll do itnow, and then they just join.
So I think I think a lot ofpeople overthink things like on,
like the way it needs to bedone.
So I'm sorry.

Sorry, so people get the sequencing wrong, like they
think that it's like it has tobe this and then this, and then
this and then this.

I just a lot of people, just like you know.
I don't know it depends whowe're talking to, but yeah,
that's our issue.
Like the leads is the problem,like initially and building the
systems built in the systems,that's super interesting man.

Yeah, yeah, and if you think about it, that's why
the coaching model is so fuckingclear, because the systems
aren't even that complicated Ifyou compare it to like a
done-for-you components right?
No, it's not.

We tried done-for-you LinkedIn like two
years ago and like November, soit was like a year and three
months ago and I like sevenpeople because they wanted it.

They all gave me the money.
It's easier to get people toput the trust in you versus the
trust in them and I refundedeverything after three weeks.

I was like I'm not doing it anymore.
I was like, fuck that I'm notdoing this.
This is too hard, like no way.
Because the amount ofcomplexity that's and you
mentioned before the expectationof I still probably wouldn't do
it now like I would still I'ddo a hybrid coaching, one-to-one

(01:17:19):
that's what our high ticket isnow.

Yeah, you know.
So it's like it kind of goesback to like, again, traffic,
how much traffic you can get,how many leads you can get, how
many that are qualified, likewhat's the laps?
You need these appointments,presentations and sales to be
able to get that really going,because I think, like in our
education side you know ouroffer's 20k right.
So, we don't fucking need thatmany people.

We need the right people.

Yeah, so that's why, and then for me, then, like the
acquisition can be organic andthen or we can put flames on it
by going outbound.
We're not actually goingbecause we're not going outbound
to cold.
It's important.
here, the only thing that'sdoing is people are coming
inbound, where we're testing adson IG and then seeing because,

(01:18:05):
like the, basically because wehave good production, because
we're not potatoes, the cost ofrunning ads for us is super low.
Yeah, Because the qualities areso high, um, and the
positioning is good.
So what's the mechanism toscale that up?
Because, like I know but I knowquite well Dickie Bush and
Nicholas Cole they have asimilar business model with us,

(01:18:27):
which is like hybrid coaching,basically.
Um and Dickie's the same age asme he's 28,.
Same background in finance.
Yeah, and the difference iswhen I met him, which was about
8 months ago, we were doing 100ka month and he was doing close
to a million a month.
Yeah, wow and I was like bro,what's the difference?
and he was like honestly, man,the only thing that was

(01:18:49):
different for him was the salesteam and the ads, yeah, and the
ads yeah.
And the reason being is becausethe offer works.
The CAC is kind of low, ltv ispretty high.
I think they only have oneoffer, which is $8,500.

They have $6,500 and $8,500.
And they have a mastermindthough, don't they?
That's probably more expensive.

I don't really have a mastermind.

yet yeah, I've seen them doing personal events
like online videos and stuff.
So I would I would guess that'slike 20 grand maybe.
What's their next maybe?

if that's included in that.
But, um, so that was theconversation.
He was like the only thingthat's different is the sales
team and the arts, so that thereare two things that I'm
basically trying to figure out,because if there's no
fulfillment in done with you,it's easy to ramp that up.
Right, do you know what I mean?
Because, like you know, yousaid there about the, what I

(01:19:36):
said to you about the constraintin the business, yeah, it's
funny.
Like the theory of constraintsis amazing, right, because
constraint in the beginning isleads, yeah, and then the next
constraint then is qualified orunqualified.

Yeah.

And then it's like your product sucks, yeah, so the
product is really good.
And now?
We're trying to reverseengineer it backwards.

What is your constraint then?
What do you think it is?

We've rebuilt the sales team several times.
The team we have now is reallygood.
The guys are B2B sales guys, sothey did like you know I
couldn't do Zoom.
And then we have an ig team, sowe we fixed that.
Now, working with iman, oursales metrics are really fucking
good, yeah, so we eventuallyfinally cleaned it all up so

(01:20:24):
like we have everything fromshow race.
You got a dashboard witheverything in it.
Got a dashboard that we builtourself.
Now, it's not fucking superbeautiful.
But, dude, I got quoted themost crazy prices, you know the
HubSpot 15k.
That's what I was gettingquoted for, the simplest shit
ever.
So now that's taken care of.
So sales management is takencare of.
So now we know that we can getgood leads in and even like the

(01:20:48):
call functioning positioning isgood.
The other thing is I thinkwe're just trying to work out
the ads for IG just because it'san opportunity.
That's kind of it, bro, I guessleads is always a thing right.
But why I'm hesitant to sayleads is a problem is because
the time of podcasting is sosmall that we are already

(01:21:10):
constrained by the size of thetime.

Let's say what's the perfect ideal client for you
.

Depends on the offer If it's in core, so the agency.
It's a seven to eight figurebusiness who want their podcast
just completely taken care of,like.
Could you build a list of thesepeople?
That was our first offer.
We already have a list of them.

No, but like I mean, could you build a list of
everyone you can sell to in likethe world, Like?
Let's say, is the TAM like1,000, 5,000, 10,000, or is it
like oh, you mean in one list.

Yeah, well, you know , in theory there's 300,000
active podcasts, okay, and thenof that 300,000, then with the
split, who's like absolutelyfucking broke right, which is
probably like 40%, yeah, andthen our low ticket, but our
incubator offer could capture aproportion of them.

If you get in front of these people, like, can
you sell to them?
Like are you pretty good yeah.

Can you talk to them ?

We've already got two Like as in, like when you
speak to them like hey, having aconversation, like you know
they're paying points, you knowwhat they this is me in 2020
like dumbass, no idea what I'mdoing.

A little bit of cash in my pocket from my 9 to 5.
I want to build an onlinebusiness.
I need to understand what apodcast I'm using a podcast
because I want to like, build mynetwork and shit, and then, at
the same time, then I want to beable to build an offer in the
backend.
So we're just injecting anoffer.
Do it.
You're a social guy.
You don't want to spend yourtime like writing or whatever.

(01:22:35):
Just use a podcast, same shit,because then we'll the.
Yeah, basically, that's it in anutshell, without getting too
complicated.
Yeah, so that's why the.
That's why the education piecefor us done by my mate, tom, was
a huge unlock, because it waswhat happened was people, as you
said, people want it done forthem, but then they're like
Jesus, fucking Christ, it's 5k amonth.

(01:22:56):
Yeah, so then it's like alright, so this is an and else
statement.
Everyone that's in the elsegoes into the incubator.
Yeah, but then what happenedthen?
Was we get we've gotten reallygood results from people.
Yeah, that they were like Idon't want to outsource it.
And then that's when we broughtin Apex, which is just like
okay, you're making 30k a month.
We can get you to 80k a monthor 100k a month by adding in

(01:23:20):
some systems and sales.
Yeah, gotcha, that'sinteresting.

I would just if I was in.
I come from like the coldoutreach background.
So what I like, if, like I'vebeen doing, like I've been doing
this now, like with podcasts,this is like.
So my cold outreach activityevery day is like to outreach to
get on podcasts.
That's like.
So I'm just using that skillnow.
And so, like I did that, to geton Christo, I spent two hours

(01:23:44):
writing a post.
I watch one of his videos withYasmin Alec, so I did a pitch
post and I called DMD and I goton his podcast and I was like
cool, like I was like, so it'slike using that skill.
But like when you got a smallkind of like 10, it's like you
just if you look at likelookalike audiences, so like
who's a client of yours, that'sbeen like had just an insane ROI
that you know you can justeasily help other people and

(01:24:06):
then just you just find thatperson and then you just like
find the 500 identical peopleand you just like reach out.

Well, we have them, so we have like the old guys who
are like super wealthy yeah,and we have those good
testimonials and case studies.
Then we have the young guys whoare 19, 20, who are just
crushers yeah.
And then we have the guys thatare in the career change 30 to
40 bracket, who've done the 10years in their solo
entrepreneurship business.
So we actually have threedifferent buckets and, depending

(01:24:34):
on the prospect, we'll positionthe testimonial in the right
way.

I mean, like you can like back when I was at
Telesense, the company, I justcalled people up and be like hey
, I know you got this company, Iknow you got all these problems
, I know you got this bill.
We do a free audit inside.
We essentially had a.
As he talks about, the besttype of lead magnet is a
services-based lead magnet.
You actually do something forthem.
Like you get on a call andactually do something for them.

(01:24:59):
Like I got a client that's likecrushing right now with this.
He just he does linkedin leadgeneration like me, so he gets
to copy what we do, which isamazing, but he's just does it
for the german market and solike.
But his, his thing on hisprofile is like I'll give you a
free LinkedIn profile analysisand everyone wants that, and so,
like reaching out and havinglike a services that's how we

(01:25:20):
built that other company andjust get on.
And the whole goal of theservices lead bank is just to
build trust with them, to showthat you're not a fraud and
you're like holy shit sometimes,yeah, when I think about niche,
like real niche, I always thinkabout like, like.
Sometimes you just go directlike to them and just because
and you you can say something intwo minutes that they're like I

(01:25:42):
agree with everything you said.
Yeah, that's correct and that's.
But you can only do that whenyou know the niche so well, you
know them better than yourselflike that's the only way you can
do that.
A lot of people can't do itbecause they just have no idea
they're chatted to yeah, they'reselling fucking SEO to nail
salons.
They just chose these nicheindustries For no reason.

(01:26:05):
A lot of small businesses aswell that I see this all the
time.
That's why they really, reallystruggle is because they've been
in business for five years.
They started from a fewreferrals and just from pure
inertia of existing.
They grew.
So they never got leadgeneration right.
Their actual service isn't thatgood, but they just existed and

(01:26:27):
they just were there andapparent and they had a saying
we're in business and they gotbusiness.
It's.
It's why I used to go to anetworking group called b and I
an in a networking group calledBNI, an in-person networking
group.
It's like a big cult thing,right, I do CrossFit, bni, I'm
all in the cults, right.
But all the businesses they'vebeen there for 20 years and they
got all their business throughreferrals but the actual

(01:26:50):
businesses that they had werenot good Like they.
Just it was just.
This is why most people justdon't market enough.
That's why they can't grow.
Just because they turned up toa networking event two hours a
week and they had a KPI wherethey had to give a certain
number of referrals.
And they had a KPI where theyhad to.
You have to do one-to-ones withother people to give them
referrals.
Their business just grewbecause they just turned up and

(01:27:13):
existed as well.
And I think a lot of people,when they go down the route of
like they've just had especiallywhen I look at people who have
an older business for a whileand I'm like, I'm like I don't
know, like because they couldhave just got there through
inertia, through referrals orwhatever, just because if
someone gets a referral, theyjust want to make a decision and
buy.
And so a lot of small businessesthey're like they'll ask their
family and friends, like do youguys know an SEO agency?

(01:27:35):
And they'll be like, yeah, Ispeak to this guy who's never
done anything before and they'relike I get along with you, we
went to the same school together, cool, and they'll just never
fix the services.
So there's all these mediocrebusinesses, but they don't know
that because they've never hadto sell from cold or they've
never had to do outreach.
You know, your shit's good ifyou can outreach to people or do

(01:27:57):
content and actually do sales.
And a lot of the businessesthey are stuck in this thing but
they don't even know.
That's the worst part.
And then when they realize,they're like oh shit, they
actually realize what happened.
So it's a whole swath ofbusinesses doing that which is
so like they can't do the likeyou could do the outreach or

(01:28:19):
that, whatever, because you justknow like, but a lot of people
just have just kind of.
They're kind of like working ajob in a business.
It's kind of like they justcreated themselves another job.
Yeah, that's a good point andthey just build this system.
They work with any clients, theytake any lead that kind of
comes with them.
So they haven't Probably theright word is they haven't
productized their service.
That's probably the right wordand they're just like a
glorified, really goodconsultant.

(01:28:40):
It's an expert in a lot ofthings Instead of going into one
thing.

That's why, for me, it's so crazy that people sell
stuff they don't know about.
I physically just will neverunderstand it.
And it gets like, oh, I'm goingto work on this offer or this
agency or whatnot.
So you don't truly understandit.
That's why, you know, you askedme like how much do I know
about the industry?
Yeah, it's so easy to writeemails and just look for hand
raisers.
Like, yeah, like, dude, you cando like semi-automated,

(01:29:07):
semi-personalized, so halfmessages with a bit of spin
taxing, and then be like are youfucking struggling to grow your
podcast?
Are you super underwater withthis?
Happy to send you over?
Like again, it's a free, freeaudit, free review, whatever.
And it's funny because youmight look at that and be like
that's so fucking stupid.
Everyone can send those emails.
But you would be surprised withhow much responses you get yeah

(01:29:29):
, so we're like, yeah, dude,like running a podcast sucks.
I thought it was gonna be funand I spent most, most of my
time doing admin.
I'm like, ah, yeah, let me sendyou a video on how to automate
that, or how to like streamlinethat or make it more simpler
yeah, so I think, like the few,like the business of the future,
like that is one that's a superadaptive right.
So, like all these ai tools thatcome out, we're on them 24 7.
The reason why we can have somany clients is because we're

(01:29:49):
just constantly checking what'snew, productizing the thing.
But it's because, like you know, the guys are like oh, ai is
going to replace your business,it's going to replace if you
don't fucking keep up with it.
But a lot of these guys justwon't.
They don't stay on top of it,right for their own stuff,
because, like we don't stay ontop of our own stuff too.
There's definitely more stuffwe could that make things way

(01:30:11):
more efficient, way faster andbetter quality, should I say,
for people, and then justposition it and like people are
happy to buy stuff, people whenit fucking helps them that's a
moral of the story.
Same with you, right, you walkthem down to the dms they know
that, okay, this is.
This is either a newopportunity or it's a pain.
Yeah, and they both light updifferent parts of the brain.
Yeah, you know for differentreasons yeah, different reasons.

Yeah, vitamin and pancreas.

Yeah, but even at that, right, if I'm like, oh,
like celebrate chat, oh, Ihaven't explored like that,
someone can at least open theirmind to it because they can see
the opportunity.

Yeah, definitely, I think we can go down the
rabbit hole of like so manyproblems that actually happen as
well.
But, yeah, you can, unlessyou're like obsessed.
I'll actually just talk about,say, positioning, because we
talked about positioning a bitbefore this.
I think.
Just initially, people, theyjust get their positioning wrong
and they just try to beeverything to everyone and they

(01:31:04):
become nothing to no one.
Yeah, and it's like the easiestway to just sell more is, if I
do b2b lead generation onlinkedin, I'm just gonna say I
help sydney-based financialadvisors do b2B lead generation
on LinkedIn.
I'm just going to say I helpSydney-based financial advisors
do B2B lead generation onLinkedIn, and the scope of what
you do gets smaller.
But what happens is peopleautomatically assume that you

(01:31:24):
can help them and even thoughit's the same information and I
lost a deal to someone and theonly difference was that this
guy said I help recruiters onLinkedIn.
The guy who does it didn't evenpost on linkedin like at all.
Like that's how strongpositioning is.
And the other person see mycontent heaps like they've gone

(01:31:45):
funnels, they've used this stuffabout, but he but this guy
helps recruiters.
That's like when you talk aboutlike leverage, it's like just
doubling down on likepositioning is like disgustingly
like such good leverage becauseyou don't want to like.
But I think people try to gotoo broad because they're scared
of, like you know, pullingpeople out, but like it works
against you, dude like.

I had a conversation with jay klaus he's on the
podcast in dubai and we talkedabout this it was that our
underpockets are off where hesaid that his biggest risk to
his business creator science ispeople that are super specific,
because he's helping them withlike an email, linkedin podcast,
youtube, um some other shit,but there's like seven different
verticals so therefore he can'tgo super deep on either of them

(01:32:28):
.
Yeah, when you, when you that'sthe problem, though.

like when you start broad, you can't go back,
like that's the issue it Likewhen you start broad, you can't
go back, like that's the issue.
It's like you've got to start.
Like if you start small, like Iread this book around
positioning I can't rememberwhat the author was, but it was
brilliant Like, and she justtalked about how they went up
against, like Salesforce as aCRM and like they just couldn't
beat them, even though they hadthese better features and I
features, and there was thislike one tiny feature that was

(01:32:52):
really good for vc firms, and sothey just said we're a serum vc
firms.
And then they just explodedlike it's just a.
it's it's because, like, ashumans, like we're, we're trying
to put things in folders in ourbrain yeah and so we just we're
trying to look for somethingthat like matches something else
or makes sense to make an easydecision.
And if there's like 10 peopleonline that say I help founders

(01:33:14):
build personal brands onLinkedIn, it's like the worst
thing.
You possibly say, like it'sjust, it's not a niche or a
position, and it's like just,don't do it, like you should
just.
Or someone will say I do itwith coaches, but they're never
supposed to do it with coaches.
It's like you've got to chat tothe person like first, like to

(01:33:35):
actually do small tweak.
Like our client who's german,when he comes up against me, he
wins.
He's like, oh, this guy doesn'tknow german, he can't, he can't
write a dm, I don't know ingerman.

And they'll be like oh cool, I get it dude, we have
a, we have a client like that.
There's b2b sales, yeah, call,calling.
Yeah.

In a german market yeah, this at least is oh,
that's just so hard to call into.
Yeah, but he fucking loves it,he crushes.

So, as a result, he trained sales teams.

He could probably just because the german market's
pretty harsh, but like it's astereotyping, but like you know,
they're usually yeah, but likethey're just super direct,
they're just like, hey, this isa cold call, like is it a good
time now?
And I'm just probably sayinglike that.

But as a result, he crushes it.
He does like, uh in-persontraining and uh like he can do
four or five gigs a month, yeah,and he's happy out it's.

It's just like there's this big fear.
It's like around like nichingdown, but like people are like
so scared to niche down.
It's like dude, you don't evenhave a business.
Like like, what are you scaredof?
You haven't made money.
A lot of people like I producecontent for six months, no one
saw it, no one remembersanything.
Like if you produce some post,some post, it's like a faceless
YouTube channel.

(01:34:36):
Do you know what the channel iscalled?
No one knows what the channelis called.
It's like there's nothingthat's associated with you.
So, like and like, if someoneis scared of niching down, just
write three separate offerdocuments, pick the three niches
you want, reach out to thethree niches and on your offer
docs say for financial advisors,for accountants, for this, and

(01:34:58):
just write the document with theheading.
Be different, just the heading.
Don't actually even write theinclusion Don't change anything,
just the heading and just seewhich one you sell to and which
one you like working to and thenjust switch to that one, like
if you're scared about actuallydoing it, about actually doing
it.
But it just it's like if I wasgoing to start again I wrote
this like really long post inour community about it If I had
to start again from $0 and Iwanted to make a million dollars
in six months, this is what I'ddo.

(01:35:18):
I wouldn't even use LinkedIn.
I would just pick like thesmallest niche Sydney Financial
Advisors and I just go toin-person networking events and
I just help.
I would be like I only workwith these people.
Sorry, and just because whenyou say you only do this one

(01:35:39):
thing, the perception that youcan only help that person goes
up and you charge 10 times asmuch money.
So there's just this like.
There's so much like I help.
This is the classic one I helpfounders get clients on LinkedIn
.
I help busy busy uhprofessionals and it's and it's
like like you're you're justswimming in the sea of everyone

(01:36:01):
else, like there's no point indifferentiation, and then you
click on their profile.
It's like I can buzz light yearand you're like I don't even
know what's happening right now.
Like it's and it's like how isnick, my old boss, who's the 50
year old accountant, evenaccountant even going to relate
to you?
Yeah, like adult and a lot ofpeople, just they don't even
have professional.
I'll talk about this.
One thing that really matterswith LinkedIn is your profile

(01:36:24):
has to look professional to theperson you're selling to, and
one of the biggest mistakes thatpeople make is that just their
photo, their profile photo,looks like bad quality and it
makes you look like a kid, likesuch simple things that you
could change.
Like I've seen some people'sbanners that look like they did

(01:36:44):
it in, like word art, like itlooks, and it's like we have a
free LinkedIn profile kit.
I can go to my YouTube.
It's free, you can do yourprofile.
We have 21 things in there.
You can redo it.
Just even like these littlethings where someone like puts
like their photo and it's gotlike a ring around it that's
like pink and they've got andI'm just like dude, no one is
gonna take you seriously.
It's like like it just eventhese such small things where

(01:37:06):
it's like an immediate,heuristic turn off.
It's like just get a camera andget your parents or whatever,
or your friends to take like agood quality photo with you,
like looking professional, andeven that as positioning is like
so, like it's so basic to it.
Another thing is like okay, solet's say I'm struggling, I
can't get clients right, nichedown, say I help, we've got a

(01:37:30):
client who does I help financialplanner, financial advisors,
generally on LinkedIn.
Just say that Change yourprofile photo to just make it
super professional and do notcomment on any personal brand
people's posts ever, becausethey all think it's spammy.
And go find the top financialpeople who, like the CFOs who
post on LinkedIn and comment ontheir stuff.

(01:37:51):
Like, if you're going to spendtwo hours a day commenting,
don't comment on the otherpersonal brand people's posts
who tell you to comment on theirposts, because it's a pyramid
scheme.
All the money just goes to thetop.
It literally is You're spendinghours of your day to pump this
person up to make them feel good, so they make heaps of money to
sell a LinkedIn growth courseand the person who's selling it.

(01:38:13):
It's not their fault because,like, they're just actually
trying to help people at thesame time, so it's no one's
fault.
Like, if you really want tothink it down tactically, it's
like when I had that call withPranjala, our client, I was like
dude, the eight figuree-commerce brand is not going to
buy something from you.
When you got a cap and you gotyour bed in the background
because you look 24.
Like, and I'm, because you look24.

(01:38:33):
And you're at a disadvantage.
You're in your parents' house.
I'm like dude, you got to lookprofessional, even these tiny
things.
But I think people are too.
I don't know if the wordliberal is bad, but you get
judged by the way you lookonline and people get to a
certain level where they canwear whatever the hell they want
, but there is a certain level.
But before that you got to playeverything to your advantage,

(01:38:59):
like everything possible.
So like professional headshot.
Don't make the color anythingcrazy like.
Don't use random words.
Don't try to fit a milliondifferent things into the banner
.
Just make it super clear whatyou do and just say I help, I
help us lawyers.
Get leads on linkedin, likewhoever it is, and just be
specific.
That will generate you like.
I've tested it with clients.
It's exploded because of it.
Because I have a client, marina.

(01:39:19):
She writes a post with the hookhere's how financial it plan is
.
In Australia, you can get leadson LinkedIn 15 likes, five leads
come in.
It's like because thecompetition is so low but
everyone feels this socialpressure to look cool on
linkedin.
It's like I've got to come inon the big creators post to look
cool.
I would have my profile to like.

(01:39:40):
It's kind of like we're comingback to like you know, going to
the pub and stuff.
I'm like wearing you good good,good shirt and stuff like that.
It's really like weird.
You've kind of got to like getout of it like it's and, but it
actually matters.
It's like you know some, a lotof people.
They're at a massive.
If you're young, if you lookyoung, you're at a disadvantage
on LinkedIn.
People won't take you seriously, business owners won't.
So you have to dress yourselfup in a way to make yourself

(01:40:02):
look old, because I rememberwhen I was like 20, people I
just looked so young, likelittle things that matter but no
one speaks about it and it'sjust like dude if you just
change that it's just the opticsyeah you know positively and
negatively.

But that's even the reason why, like your appearance
doesn't matter and even likewhere I'm going through my
training right now, just doinglike another big dieting phase,
and I was like I actually wantto get leaner so I just look
sharper just for my and it's.
It's such a small thing butagain like how you do one thing,
so you do everything right.

Let's talk about this, right, because this is
another thing that I just can'tstand.
Like people are like, like thedressing up and stuff like that
right.
Like, like my partner, herfamily, my partner's Indian, her
family runs a big, a big, a bigbusiness, right.
And so, like, when I go outwith them, they've got a certain
level in their community that,like, I have to wear a suit.
We went to an indian concert insydney and because their

(01:40:56):
sponsors were on the front row,I have to wear a suit.
But because that's the level oflike status, and so when I was
even coming here, she's like,what are you wearing?
And stuff like that.
And I was like, oh, whatever.
And she's like, no, you gottawear the rolex.
But like, but the thing is like, you even notice that as well,
but and it and it's not.
When it's a flex thing it's like, then it's bad, but sometimes

(01:41:18):
it's like.
It's like how you hold yourselftogether, it's the frame, it's
how you hold it, it's confidence.
It's why working out matters somuch.

It's like so, for example, like I don't drink
anymore.
I was a super D-Gen and I waslike partying, drugs, all that
shit when I was a kid, but thennow I don't drink anymore.
But then you get to the pointwhereby people are like oh my
God, you're going to feel superawkward.
And now I have like a differentlevel of confidence.
And again, it's more like theself-actualization, not saying
that I'm there, but it's like.

(01:42:00):
That's like another level ofjust like being comfortable in
yourself, which is like I havethe confidence that I can hold a
fucking conversation with a guy, yeah, for 20 minutes and same
with that.
Like you wear the watch, thewatch doesn't like where are you
?

yeah, it's like it's really.

You have to live up to that character, bro there's a
weird, a weird one as well.

I was having a conversation with ChatGPT today
and do this all the time, and sothis is my biggest life hack
that anyone should do ever youshould use the microphone
extension with the ChatGPT, butyou shouldn't do the one where
you have a conversation with it,where it talks back to you.
You should use the speech totext, and so you should have the

(01:42:39):
best quality chat gpt the bestone you can get and you should
have conversations with it allthe time and you should tell it
everything about you.
So you should say these are mypersonality types, these are my
tendencies, and over time, itgets to learn you and everything
about you.
So when we have a discussionback and forth, it knows what
I'm like and it can giveself-assessments based off that
as well.
It's so crazy that after awhile, like it knows all your
personality types, your iq, yourdeep prop, like everything it
can tell you, and it can tellyou what to do next.

(01:43:00):
But we're having a conversationthis morning I was, oh, what was
it about?
Now I lost it.
I'll come, I'll come up with abetter point.
Okay, we're having aconversation this morning and I
was like writing at the sametime, like on my ipad, so like
I'm writing stuff to put contenttogether at the same time, as
like on ChatGPT as well, andlike I lost the point.

Complaint.
I lost the point.
It'll come back.

It'll come back.
We've been recording for liketwo hours.
Dude, that's all right, it'llcome back.

Did you have an offer before where it was like
ai?

so our company was called unlock ai before yeah,
worst name ever, but whatever,it sounded cool.
Um, so this is when I didn'thave my co-founder or we kind of
made the branding thing andstarted.
He's more a consultant.
He wasn't co-founded then aswell.
Um, but, um, yeah, we had.
It was unlock ai, but it wasthe same thing, the same
business, like linkedingeneration, but we help people

(01:43:55):
kind of write content with aiand then also do using ai tools,
and a lot of the magic trickwas like how to talk to chat gbt
as well and people like this iscrazy.
Yeah, so it's kind of like anai era.
Since then, I'm like againstwriting content with ai, so I've
kind of like totally pulledback on that as well so you
wrote everything natively likewhatever, like I've done some
posts that I I but like, orwould you refine the posts you

(01:44:17):
have?
what I know that you honestlylike 99 is like written by me,
like all written by me, becausethe writing process is like a
distillation process of yourthoughts and ideas and so when
you write, it allows you todistill your thoughts and ideas
and expand on them, like asyou're going through at the same

(01:44:37):
time, like I was writing thismorning and like I came up, like
I was having conversation withchat gpt, and I came up with an
idea like through this, throughsell by chat, and there's a
there's, there's a thing calledthe benjamin franklin effect
where if you ask someone to do afavor for you, like, then they

(01:44:57):
and they do it for you a smallfavor, then they automatically
trust you more, because youdon't do a favor for someone
unless you trust them.

So it's like.

It's like a hack and so I was like we're having a
conversation, we're like deepdown into it and then, like this
suggestion popped out was I'mwriting at the same time, both
at the same time of like I canuse that in a sell by chat
strategy.
So, like what I'm going to addinto the DM discussions is say,
oh, you're having a conversationwith someone.
You say, hey, oh, by the way,like I've actually got this post
coming out tomorrow.

(01:45:25):
I want to actually check.
Can you actually ever readthrough it Just to tell me?
I want to know your thoughts.
Does it resonate?
Because you're a mind to aclient I'd really like to know
in your thoughts.
If they do that, then they justautomatically trust you more
and stuff like that.
But that insight that I hadlike wouldn't have happened if I
wasn't having this discussionand like writing at the same
time.
I had a lot of other insightsas well.
But like you just it's likeyou're writing itself when you

(01:45:47):
write, but also use chat GPT forideation.
It's like you've got like thesmartest person in the world
next to you, like, and you cankind of talk to them at the same
time and you can also paste inyour entire conversations.

So I often do if you wanted to like paste in
tonality, but like is thetonality off Am.
I too pushy, am I too needy?

It's also like it's hard, though, because it's
trained off like the internet.
So, like sometimes it's likethe context of it is off Because
you have to have a greatLinkedIn post.
It's going to be shit.

But what I've so less with the post.
Well, you can do for posts, but, if you like, did a CSV file of
all your posts.
Yeah Right, this is my writingstyle, this is my tonality, this
is my humor, and so on.
And then here are some excerptsof my chats.
Knowing this and knowing me andknowing my values, my values of

(01:46:38):
x, y and z now review thiscurrent conversation you have,
and then it will be like, okay,it's too pushy, it's too needy,
or so on, to for it.
Right, because you can, if youcan feed it so many of your own
content.

So my business partner we built a gbt that does
this for sell by chat.
So it it does work like prettywell.
So it's like a the.
The secret to the prompt isit's not a gbt.
He wrote the sell by chat bookbecause he sold 100 grand three
months with no profile photo oranything.
So he knows a bit about.
So I chat plus.
He talks to me 24 7.
He wrote the sell by chat bookand the prompt is just putting

(01:47:05):
in the book.
It's the prompt, so we just putthe whole book in it and just
say that's the actual prompt.
So if you get to the promptpage in the book it's just the
book copied and so we just copypaste the whole book in and then
it allows you to analyze it.
But even then it's like the.
When you there's somethinghappens, when you're like when
you're ideating and you'rehaving a discussion and then

(01:47:28):
you're writing at the same timewhere you progress and then
build on your own thoughts, yeah, and unless you're like
actively learning and teachingand doing things, you don't
actually distill the skill andthe memory and like are you're
able to build on top of it,because you're lazy bro, yeah,
and so like that's why I don'tthe ai content type of thing as

(01:47:48):
well.
It's like I think it's okay if,like, you're good at writing and
you can understand, like, whatgood writing is and stuff like
that.
But even then I've triedprompting for an hour back and
forth and it still gets itdecent, but it still doesn't get
it to the same level of depth.
It can't say things like thisis why I'm not scared about AI

(01:48:10):
beating out humans in DMs,because you can say things that
AI could never say unless itlies.
That's the only thing.
So if I reached out to someoneand say, oh hey, yo, yo, bill, I
just saw you connected withSean McHugh.
I was just on a call with himlast night on Zoom, he's doing a
taco Tuesday night, which I waspretty excited about.
I saw you were actually there,by the way.
It's pretty awesome, I thoughtthe way it's pretty awesome.

(01:48:31):
I thought I actually connectedwith another citysider.
Or if you checked out that newcafe regimen, it's got this sick
chicken roll like I really.
I had one, had one the other daywas amazing.
Like you can't, yeah you.
So what's going to happen withthis?
Wrap it back to dms and contentis the stuff that's gonna go
really well.
Is going to be the stuff thatai can't do, yeah, unless it
lies at the same time.

(01:48:52):
But that's why I think it's.
That's why, right now, skillsare so important, because, like
a person who is highly skilledwith AI is like a weapon.
It's like my business partner.
So we're building software.
I shit you not.
We have a software now that canpull out every single message
you've ever sent on LinkedIn,every comment that's ever

(01:49:12):
happened, ever anyone that'sviewed your profile or anything,
and it can analyze every singlelead and it come back with a
lead score out of 100 based onall your criteria, and it can
tell you exactly who to reachout to.
Like right now we have that andhe built that.
He's not a programmer oranything.
Just through ChatGPT We've gotone developer.
It's like the speed at whichyou can do things, but the

(01:49:35):
reason he's so good is becausehe's so smart and he's so
skilled and he knows the logic,he knows what you're trying to
build.
That's, that's yeah but he'salso a weapon of design and
copywriting, like all thesethings, and so, like the, it's
kind of like ai is becoming thislike accelerant of people that
are really skilled and so, likethis divide is happening with
people even more, and so there'speople who are coming in using
the lazy route, but they're justgoing to get smashed Cause,

(01:49:58):
like when everyone's got accessto this.
It's like the only people thatcan level up are the ones that
are, so it's becoming like anaccelerant.

It's funny you say that because I did something
similar my emails.
So I built a Python script inChatGPT to analyze my emails to
pull out the ones that wereinbound leads for sponsorships.
Some of them are like PC,they're not really like, Not
real.

They're not warm.

There's people coming in, yeah, so to pull out,
to pull in these people, then,when I did the offer, separate
those people and then do asentiment analysis on it,
whether it's positive, negativeor neutral, and from there then
rate it and then, if it's good,segregate it.
Yeah, so again, you have tounderstand like what am I trying
to achieve here?
Because I could do thattechnically in Excel.

(01:50:43):
You can build a macro to dothat in Excel, but fuck doing
that.
So instead I just spent twohours doing it, and then I was
able to get it done.
Yeah, is doing it, and then Iwas able to get it done.
Yeah, so it's an interestingobservation, right.
It's like you need tounderstand what the problem is.
You should solve same with thecontent, right?
If you're a great copywriter,you can look at it and say like,
okay, yeah, this actually didhelp, just fix one or two tiny
things you need to know whatgood looks like, like that's

(01:51:06):
like copywriting is like andsales that.

The problem with copywriting sales combined as a
bucket right is, if you look atphysics, it requires like three,
four, five, six levels to getto the point where you can
conceptually understand what'seven going on.
So if you watch a physicsYouTube video, you're just like
I'm lost, I can't do anything orI can't anyway.
But if I watch a Tua Hormozisales video or copywriting video

(01:51:31):
, I watch the whole thing andI'm like I totally get all this.
I understand it, it makes totalsense, but there's a difference
between conceptuallyunderstanding and application of
it and then the dozens anddozens and dozens like probably
thousands of micro skills thatactually are actually around it,
and so I see all these people.
Yeah, I see all these peoplelike out there making these like

(01:51:53):
AI content tools, and I look attheir own content.
I'm like it's never going towork.
It's literally never going towork, because you don't even
know what good looks like andyou can't get the AI to analyze
what good looks like.
The only person that knows whatgood looks like is the true
expert who's actually doing it,and so there's just a lot of
people.
All these things like that willjust never be good, but then

(01:52:15):
what will happen is like thetrue expert will come in and
they'll just destroy everyonebecause, like, they actually
know like what matters and evenlike so many people like they
talk to me and they're like I'mbuilding this ai sales bot and
all this kind of stuff likearound best practices and stuff,
and like I look at their salesconversation and their
understanding of psychology andstuff like that and like if

(01:52:38):
there's like one thing wrong inlike the whole sales process,
like you just can stuff thewhole thing and there's like
hundreds of things in it, andlike they can't spot the one
thing, like it's impossible.
And so everyone's like,especially the AI content thing,
especially the AI content thingpeople are building tools to do
it.
I'm just like man, the AIcontent isn't going to be the
content that's going to bewinning anyway.
It's going to be the people whohave the skill of writing can

(01:53:01):
write stuff that AI can't write.
Yeah, yeah.
But I think we go back tomindset and stuff like that.
People are looking for the easyway out.
It's like what's the Netflixway out?
What's the Uber Eats way out,kind of thing.
It's like, but you just can'twin.
It's like too hard.

It's a good point to finish on man.
This is fucking great.
This is long.
This was like over two hoursman.

I didn't realize the time it was fun.

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#270 Matt Lakajev - How to Instantly Drive More Sales (Sell-by-Chat Framework)

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#270 Matt Lakajev - How to Instantly Drive More Sales (Sell-by-Chat Framework)