#281 Richard Cooper: Why Most Men FAIL in Relationships

Episode Transcript
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Richard (00:00):
There's certain things that women don't like that they
want you to stop doing, and incertain scenarios, just because
she doesn't like somethingdoesn't mean that you stop doing
it.
They'll go to school for years.
They'll frame degrees inmahogany with little letters
after the name.
They think they're important.
They'll put on a masculine suitwith padded shoulders so they
make themselves look like men.
They'll go and behave like menall day long and then they want

(00:21):
to come home and be women, andit's like they have a hard time
with that right.

Darren (00:26):
If you want to build a successful business, you need a
strong relationship behind it.
Most entrepreneurs ignore this.
They focus on money.
They build the brand, butbehind the scenes, their entire
relationship is in chaos.
In this episode, I sit downwith Richard Cooper,
entrepreneur and author of theUnplugged Alpha and one of the
most unapologetic voices inmen's self-development, to break

(00:47):
down what actually works.
We talk about frame leadershipand building a relationship that
backs your mission instead ofbreaking it.
Let's get into it.
Where I'd love to start is youlook at high achievers,
entrepreneurs that are crushingit, and you see more and more
guys that end up in like failingrelationships or in divorces.

(01:08):
If you were to put your twocents on it, what you think?
The reason is that these guys,who have a lot of things are put
together, are in relationshipsthat end up either crumbling or
falling beneath them at somepoint I think if you want to
narrow it down and keep itsimple, it's one.

Richard (01:27):
The first thing is a selection process is picking the
right gal.
And then the second thing is,even if you pick the right gal
and you don't understand femalenature, you will still have a
very strong probability of herwanting to untie the knot or to
leave the marriage.
Take the kids, half your stuff.

(01:48):
You know the typical sort ofdivorce grinder story that most
guys go through.
So those would be the two mainthings.

Darren (01:54):
Let's dig into the selection part.
How can you plan that out?
Because, of course, it's easyto be like okay, you know this
woman didn't work out and thisguy didn't work out, but it
works both ways too, right, Like, is the guy always there?
Is the woman always there?
Like, how do you think aboutthat on a long off time horizon?

Richard (02:13):
Um, I think for selection it's uh, it's time
plus observation will give yousome clarity, right, um?
You need to observe thebehaviors, watch what she says
versus what she does.
Um, of course, in my first bookI talk about the?
Um, the red flags that you wantto try to avoid.

(02:34):
Minimize as many as possible,if they exist.
There's some of them that youcould perhaps um have her work
on Um in the second book, whichcomes out later on this year.
I've got a chapter on greenflags and sort of like the
management of longtermrelationships in there as well.
Um, so there's other componentsthat you have to sort of
continue to manage as time goeson.

(02:56):
Like everybody thinks, oh, youknow you'll just get married in
the eyes of a God or a certainreligion or something like that,
and because the covenants areall strong and you know family
sets sort of boundaries andframes around, that it should
all work out.
You know you just do the rightthing and you know she'll
enthusiastically want to be withyou in a perpetuity.

(03:19):
And it doesn't usually work outthat way because women are
inherently I'm going to use theword difficult to manage over
the longterm for most guys.
Right, most, most guys don'tunderstand female nature and it
usually gets the best and that'swhy you'll see a lot of guys
are like you know.
She was enthusiastic and lovedme and messaged me every day and

(03:39):
we had monkey sex hanging fromtheir chandelier like three
times a day and it was awesome.
And it's like the same guyseven years later, after a
couple of kids, is sitting downon his computer Googling how do
I get my wife to sleep with me?
or signing up for the only fans,girl, sort of thing.
So there's, um, you know, sothere's always going to be a
standard degradation and thequality of the relationship over
time.
A lot of people argue.
Well, that doesn't necessarilyhave to be true.

(04:00):
Have to be true.
Look at me, blah, blah, blah.
It's perfect.
No, like, every relationshipgoes through some form of a
degradation.
There's, there's, there's this,uh, sequence of events that men
go through, which is calledbeta tization, through a
thousand concessions right Iswhat I've coined it and they
essentially get to this pointwhere they become less
attractive to their wife over aprolonged period of time because

(04:22):
they're saying yes to too manythings, they're letting her get
away with too many things.
Um, women will constantlycompetency test men, right, like
it's in their nature.
If they weren't with the bestguy that they could get a
thousand years ago, it couldspell death for her and her kids
, right?
So she's constantly testing you.
You know she wants to make surethat you've got it figured out,
right, you don to tell herexactly what step a, b, c and d

(04:44):
is, sort of thing.
But she has to feel like I'mgonna use the word, feel like
you have it all figured out didyou think?

Darren (04:51):
do you think it goes both ways as well, though?

Richard (04:55):
no, I think that's um, that's a modern trope, that a
lot of um, modern feminists, orlike media or bloggers, or even
like youtubers, will start tosay well, if it's good for the
good, the gander, you know, if,uh, if it works for him, then
what about her sort of thing?

Darren (05:11):
and it's like it's a different just want to take one
quick break to ask you onequestion have you been enjoying
these episodes?
Because, if you have, I'd reallyappreciate if you subscribe to
the channel so that more peoplecan see these episodes and be
influenced to build an onlinebusiness this year.
Thank you, I would say, like,not necessarily like the guy as

(05:31):
in like a work for work for himand more so, like guys give up
on their standards.
Like I'm 28, right, a lot ofguys that I went to school with
that took nine to five jobscorporate jobs.
They're like fat, broke,overweight, they're not like
pushing on.
So like these guys like aregetting sloppy, right, yeah, and
they get sloppy over time.

(05:51):
So my kind of just uh, approachthis was like do these these
guys also just get lazy in arelationship too?
Is that there's also acomponent of that whereby
they're not actually like tryingtheir best and trying to be a
really fucking good guy, right,like you're into the gym boxing
every 24 7, likewise, I want tohold myself to an exceptionally
high standard, but I just knowthat that standard is not out

(06:14):
there all the time.
Like that is.

Richard (06:16):
It's a matter of fact, right yeah, I think we get
comfortable with the.
Known is what it boils down to.
You know, you're familiar witheach other.
You just get comfortable andyou kind of slide into habits
and behaviors and do a littlebit less.
Um, you know I've said thatthere's three things that
usually contribute to thecountdown to the end of a
relationship uh, proximity,familiarity and exclusivity.

(06:39):
And the more of that you giveher, the less likely it is that
you're going to have aprofoundly enjoyable
relationship over a long periodof time.

Darren (06:52):
Can you expect?

Richard (06:54):
Well, proximity is being close, right.
So I get criticized for sayingthis, but it's the truth.
The closer you are to eachother, the more you know about
each other.
You're very familiar with your,you know your habits, um, you
know, you get to know theschedule sort of thing, like one
of the um.

(07:14):
One of the most successfulmarriages that I've seen is run
over 30 years.
A good friend of mine and Iasked him you know, one day I
said you know, what do you thinkis a?
Is a contributor to the successof your marriage, cause they
have genuinely like.
If you see this couple, they'rein love with each other.
She adores him, you know.
You can see her looking at himwhen he's talking about
something and she has like asparkle in her eye over him.

(07:36):
And he said well, because thisguy was an entrepreneur and he
owned a toy company, so he wasconstantly flying around and
going to Hong Kong and theChinese factories and doing a
lot of travel.
He was out of the house abouthalf of the month and he said
probably the travel, probablythe fact that we weren't close
to each other for a lot of themonths, and she basically did
all the home stuff, you know,raising the kids, like the pink

(07:57):
jobs, and he would go out andsort of do the blue jobs, like
making it rain, making theconnections, being influential,
making money, solving problems,sort of things.
So that's the proximitycomponent of the equation.
The familiarity is like the morea woman knows about you again,
your habits, your behaviors,where you are all the time, who
you're with, what you're doingwith who you're with, it erases

(08:20):
some of the novelty.
It erases some of the unknown.
There has to be a little bit ofcompetition anxiety with women
when it comes to a long-termrelationship, because women want
what other women want and ifother women don't want you and
other men don't want to be you,then she's going to have a hard
time looking at you, going, oh,this guy's a giant, you know I,
you know I love the man that I'mwith, sort of thing.

(08:41):
Um, so there's that element andthen there's, of course,
exclusivity, uh, which isboiling down to sexual
exclusivity, and I think thatwhether you choose to exercise
the option, uh, is not relevant.
I think that the threat needsto exist, okay.
So whether it's real or imagined, the idea of him having options

(09:02):
that he can exercise needs toexist and that's not a two-way
street, by the way.
That's a one-way street becausemen and women are completely
different, so the last thing aman wants is to contemplate or
think that she's off doingsomething with, with the, with
the fact that if someone is notalways there it just shows like,

(09:27):
basically, the value of therelationship, right, because
there's like absence makes theheart grow fonder, right?
So there are ways.

Darren (09:35):
So, as a result, there's more of like a lore, there's
more of imagination as well, aswell coming into the
relationship which is like oh,I'm excited for you to come back
it two weeks, it's one week.
It's funny you said that becausemyself and my wife Elise she's
American, I'm Irish, and we metjust coming up to pre-covid
initially, and when covid hitshe was based in America and I

(09:57):
was based in Ireland, andIreland put a ban on Americans
and Americans put a ban onIreland.
So we had to like figure thingsout.
And it was like two monthsbefore you saw each other, three
months before you saw eachother, we like figured out, went
to mexico at some point, thenwe went to thailand and then we
went to bali and we had tofigure out all this like random
shit, but that's what like keptthings really interesting
because most people would havesaid long distance relationships

(10:18):
didn't work, but it was thefact that I was focused on my
podcast.
I was was focused on.
I was working in consulting atthe time, would you believe, but
that actually added to therelationship so much.
And that's an interestingdilemma, right?
Whereas most people just movein with each other and then the
standards drop and you becomeway too known with each other's
different bad habits.

(10:39):
Should I say?

Richard (10:41):
Yeah, it's not often that a long distance
relationship works, though,right, I think it only works
where she sees you as her bestoption, right, that's, that's
when she's willing to wait,that's when she's willing to
travel to Mexico, that's whenshe's willing to travel to
Thailand.
So that's an interesting test.
I think COVID was a bit of atest of your relationship at

(11:01):
that time, unbeknownst to you,but the fact that she was
willing to go to Mexico and goto Thailand, and, um, you know
the more enthusiastic she wasand the further that that that
she went to facilitate thosethings.
So, as an example, I mean ifshe would contact you unprompted
every day, if she would ask fora FaceTime call every day, if

(11:21):
she would travel to Mexico onher own dime, not asking you to
pay for it, um, basically, themore a woman likes you, the less
it's going to cost you.

Darren (11:31):
You know, I can put it that way dude, that's such an
interesting concept, let's diginto that because, it's funny
because, uh, like I I alwayssaid like I met elise when I had
like minus 10k my bank accountand you'll find it funny, sorry,
funny.
Uh.
We were like we're going tomeet somewhere and I had like
minus 10k my bank account andyou'll find it funny, sorry,
funny, uh.
We were like we're going tomeet somewhere and I had like
literally zero money, right likefuck all.
I was super young, it's like 22or something and I had to use a

(11:52):
credit card to get there whichwas already in debt and I just
made up that I had the cash.
I was like, fuck it, I'll figureit out so like at least it's
like literally been there sincelike pre me doing anything, and
now, many years later, likewe're like very, very
financially set and so on, butbut it's never been.
We like nothing has everchanged relationship wise in

(12:12):
terms of like money, whereaslike the initial reason why we
liked each other or got togetheris still the initial reason,
which is that we both enjoy liketraveling freedom on our own
schedule, like kind of justbeing like kind of like a little
bit young and dumb uh likethat's like we have a lot of
banter that way, even though,like my business, I'm super
fucking serious with like 20employees and super stressful

(12:33):
when I'm engaging in therelationship, it's more just
like oh playful, does that makesense?
and she obviously supports in abusiness too and so on to
foreign.
You know I'll share some inputevery once in a while, so she's
supportive, I would say.

Richard (12:44):
But I'm saying this is a lot of variation.
Yeah, I was going to say, likeyou'll see this a lot with
engagement rings, where a womanwill insist that the ring has to
cost a certain amount or has tobe a certain size, right, I
won't accept your proposalunless it's three carats, right?
Well, that's what she's sayingto a guy that she doesn't
genuinely see as her best option.
Because if she's reallyenthusiastic about the guy, you

(13:07):
know, like I said, the more shelikes you, the greater the
discount, right?
Enthusiastic about the guy?
Uh, you know, like I said, themore she likes you, the greater
the discount, right?
You know she'll be happy with aone character or a half
character, or a $2,000 ring or apromise ring or a piece of
rubber band around her ringfinger or a tattoo or something
like that, think about it.
Right, I mean, you've seen thisyourself, I'm sure.

Darren (13:23):
Yeah, yeah, and I'm not saying my marriage is perfect,
I'm definitely not saying that,I'm just saying it's interesting
observation.
Like we, our wedding was fourpeople, right, like it was.
Like it was like four peopleand the caterers were like a
hundred dollars, some shit, youknow, to keep it super simple,
uh, because it was never aboutthe thing.
But okay, question for you off,this is so a lot of young

(13:44):
entrepreneurs in this space like, okay, let's just talk about
generations.
My generation is obviouslydifferent.
In your generation, it's neverbeen easier for younger guys to
make money, like literally withthe access, right.
So we have a lot of these youngguys who make really fucking
crazy money, but they obviouslycan't back it up in other
aspects of their life, right,they're kind of falling in other

(14:04):
aspects.
So the common theme amongstyoung people is don't get into a
relationship, don't get a girluntil you have the bag, and then
, when you have money, then youshould go get a partner.
What do you think about that?

Richard (14:18):
that's interesting because there's really no cut
and dry for that one.
You know what I mean.
Like I've heard people say toyoung men uh, don't get into a
committed relationship or getmarried in your 20s.
I've, I've, you know, I'veheard stories about wait till
your thirties.
I don't know that there's anactual cut and dry, clear, best
way to do it, but what I'll butwhat I'll say is that most guys

(14:39):
don't understand women.
So I think you can, if you wantto have a family, which really
should be the only reason whyyou're going to live with a
woman, or live in a way thatlooks like marriage to the
government, to have children, topass on your name and DNA, and
even then there's other ways todo it.
It doesn't have to be thecookie cutter way sort of thing,
but I think that it's moreimportant for a guy to, to build

(15:00):
, to, to make something out ofhimself.
You see, cause men and womenare different, right, like men
are success objects, women arebeauty objects.
Um, that's why you'll never see, uh, you know, the world's most
beautiful woman on a swimsuitmagazine or like, called by
whatever uh list that's, youknow, 45 years old.
It's always like in their earlytwenties, like 22, 23, 24,

(15:21):
something like that.
Um, and it's also why you neversee, you know, the world's most
handsome man or mostcaptivating man Like in the past
, we've seen guys like, uh, therock, uh, jason Statham, uh,
who's the guy from star Treknext generation that?
The captain Jean-Luc Picard, uh,patrick, I can't remember his
full name.
He was in his fifties at thattime, right.

(15:42):
So that's why you often seemore uh, successful, matured,
season looking man, you know,hitting those lists.
So I think that, for a guy, youhave to make something out of
yourself, and that's a man's job, whereas a woman's job is to
preserve her value.
Men, men, have to make value,if I can put it that way, and
women must preserve their value.

Darren (16:04):
How do you what?
What's the action item there?
So, like you're a young guyright and you're trying to
figure this, figure this out,make money is big.

Richard (16:11):
Make sure you're not a skinny dweeb or an overweight,
obese uh, you know guy that'ssitting around 400 pounds with
bad knees and cardiovascularhealth.
Um, so the optics ofmasculinity and health.
Um, money is very important.
It's always been important.
Evolutionary psychology hasstudied this and every single
study says the exact same thingA man with resources is much

(16:32):
more attractive to a woman thana man without resources.
Conversely, women will alsoengage with broke guys that have
no money but because they'rehigh testosterone cues, alpha
type of guy.
Like.
That's why they'll go to anightclub or a bar and they'll
want to be with.
Like the guy that just got outof jail, right like this guy,

(16:53):
luigi main manjion I can'tremember how to pronounce his
last name the guy that shot theuh ceo of the health care or the
health insurance company in thestates.
That's why, when you see thevideo footage of the waiting
area in the hallway at thecourthouse, it's filled with
women.
This guy doesn't have a pot topiss in or a women to throw, or,
sorry, he doesn't have a pot topiss in or or a window to throw

(17:15):
it out of.
He's in chains.
But these women are lining up tobe with this guy because he's
an alpha Chad, right, becausehe's demonstrated what's called
hyper hyperistophilia.
He has, he has a.
He has a competency andcapability to be lethal.
And that's why women fall forcriminals, right.
Like you never see guys fallingfor murderous women that cut
off their husband's dick andthrow in the ditch or anything

(17:36):
like that.
You don't see that, but womenwill routinely, and the video
footage is out there.
You guys can go look it up onthe internet, where there's an
entire hallway filled with womenwaiting to catch a glimpse of
this guy in the courthouse,right.
So it's a different game, likeyou know.
There's so many differentconversations to have with this,
but it's a totally differentgame, you know, between men and
women.
But to the original question,men need to make something out

(17:56):
of themselves and I think thatthey might figure that out at 25
, they might figure it out at 35or 45.
But when they figure it out,that's when I think they're in a
position to invite a woman intotheir life and maybe, you know,
build something out of it,whereas women have a different
set of objectives, and they hatewhen I say this, but they have
to preserve their value, theyhave to preserve their purity.
There's absolutely no man thatgets married that says, gee, I

(18:19):
wish my wife had fucked ahundred other guys before we got
married.

Darren (18:24):
So true, man.
Just going back on that point,just to add to it, did you ever
see Mug Shododdies the Instagrampage?

Richard (18:32):
No.

Darren (18:33):
Oh man, you'll have some laugh at this.
So basically, there's a one guycalled Jeremy Meeks and he
Meeks.
He was basically this model guy, okay, so he was out of jail.
It's a mug shots of people andthis guy, uh like, good looking
guy, whatever face tattoos andeverything, he was put on that
page and then from there, gucci,all the different brands, came

(18:54):
to him to actually become amodel, this guy has one, one
point one million followersright now I think I've seen that
guy.

Richard (19:01):
He's the dark-skinned guy with the light colored eyes
and the teardrop tattoo.

Darren (19:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah it's like what other world would that
exist, that that's actuallypossible?
It's just crazy.

Richard (19:17):
Yeah, you'll never see guys lining up to want to marry
or model up a woman that cut offher husband's dick and got
thrown in jail for six months.

Darren (19:20):
I think a big thing for me was the fact that, like, I
had gone through the traditionalroute of like, oh, go to school
, get good grades, do all thatstuff, even though I got to
leverage myself up to fuck totry to pay for it and everything
, and then I realized that thatstill put me in the bracket,
okay, so let's give it context.
So, uh, my background's inbodybuilding, but like I'm a
small guy, I'm like five, sevenon a good day, so like I don't

(19:43):
like excel in like a club, forinstance, right.
So I remember just being like anormal guy, but just like you
know, being shredded and shitwhen I want to be shredded, but
not being like known foranything.
And then I remember thenthey're like 21, 22, being like
I am not going to bedistinguished in any other way.
I'm going to need to get likesuper jacked, get like bigger.
I'm going to need to buildsomething.
I'm going to need to likedifferentiate myself so that

(20:04):
makes sense.
I need to have that uniquedifferentiator it's like oh at
least darren is x.
And then I think what's sointeresting is that for guys
it's funny because guys get intothe gym for chicks initially
and then you stay in the gymbecause you just fucking love
training.
What happened me then fromtraining and then from even on
the business side, was youalmost forget about that side to
some degree because you're justso focused on the goal and what

(20:27):
you like and that almostattracts more people towards you
as a result and now I don'teven recognize, obviously right
right now.
But I'm saying it's aninteresting observation where
you look at someone like chriswilliamson we talked about
earlier, like good lookingenglish chap or whatever, like
chicks love him because he'sjust so obsessed with what he
does, so, like being obsessedwith things draws people to him

(20:47):
too, right he's.

Richard (20:48):
He's very successful, influential and talks to
interesting people, but he'salso a handsome man as well.

Darren (20:54):
But there's an interesting point there of
authority through association.
I should talk about this quitea lot which is like the fact
that, like me and you arechatting to people like I hate
this, but it's true, Like peopleput associations being like, oh
, like there's like atribalistic instinct that's
kicking in, that someone's like,oh, Richard's associated with
Darren, Darren's associated withRichard, whether we talk to

(21:15):
each other or not, ever againDoes that make sense?
It's like that's how, like justlike tribes work and so on and
so forth.

Richard (21:20):
So I still have people that reach out to me because of
podcast interviews that I didwith Andrew and Tristan Tate
years ago.
I don't think I've.
I've had him on a podcast forsince 2017 or 18 or something
like that, and I still havepeople that say, hey, you know,
can you introduce me?
Or hey, you know, can you makesure this message gets him?
It's like yo, I don't work forthem, Like I.
Like, I have his number, I'mnot going to give it to you.

Darren (21:43):
Yeah, I remember that podcast where he's like sitting
in his uh, he's sitting in hisdownstairs living room and
there's like a Ferrari or someshit behind them and you guys
are just talking about Porschesfor like an hour straight.
Yeah, okay, you mentioned thegreen flags, so what's top three
green flags that someone shouldlook out for in a partner and

(22:05):
in a relationship?
That's an interesting question.

Richard (22:07):
I have a chapter that my editor is working on right
now that he has to send back tome.
I have a chapter that my editoris working on right now that he
has to send back to me.
So, off the top of my head, um,I would say one of the
interesting ones is when sheadopts your beliefs, political
opinions, musical tastes andhobbies.
Um, I've I've had, you know,conversations and dated women

(22:33):
that overtly say that they'revegan and I'll just tell them,
like, look, that's not going towork for me.
You know, if I'm going to cooka steak, I'm not going to make
you, you know, beans or anythinglike that, or fava beans or
So, um, you know, you're gonnahave to let that go and meat's
going to have to be part of thediet.
And, okay, you know, like,basically, if they love you, if
they like you enough, if theysee you as a strong option,

(22:55):
they'll let go of the silly.
You know, uh, I want to protectanimals and not eat animal
protein or be a certain way, orthey might adopt your musical
taste.
Right, they'll let go ofmusical tastes that they, uh,
prefer, like I've, you know,I've been driving with a gal and
you and she'll be singing alongto a song.
It's just a silly song orsomething like that.

(23:15):
She's like what do you think ofthis?
And I'm like it kind of suckshere, let me put something good
on for you.
And I'll put on some LedZeppelin or something like that.
And she's like, oh, I haven'theard this song.
This is actually really good.
And now all she wants to listento Led Zeppelin.
Um, political tastes.
You know, she'll let go of theI love Camilla Harris stuff and
be like, actually, you know what?
I think you're right, some ofthe stuff that Trump says

(23:37):
actually makes sense.
You know, I, I, you know I kindof like these people.
You know it's so strange withwomen because they often say you
know, I want an alpha male, orI want a strong man that can
lead, and then they'll do andbehave in the very way that
repels those strong alpha typemales, right?
So, um, yeah, watching heradopt your policies, your

(23:58):
beliefs, your musical tastes,your political opinions, that's
always been a very interestingone to me.
I think another really good one, too, is, you know, she's
willing to make you look good,right?
So I'll give you an example.
You know, I've been in anenvironment where I was at a
dinner, uh, once, and, um, thepeople opposite there was two
women and they were sort ofgrilling my girl on our

(24:21):
relationship, Right Cause, itsort of started to catch wind of
what I'm all about my book andyou know, stuff like that Um,
and I was talking to somebodyelse over here and then I sort
of came back to the conversationlike hey, you know, what are
you guys going on about, sort ofthing.
And they said something to meabout like well, why wouldn't
you marry her, or why wouldn'tyou live with her, or something
like that, and not in a friendlyway or in a curious way, but

(24:43):
almost like in a condescendingtone.
And I thought to myself, okay,self, this is.
You know, this will be aninteresting test.
And I just kind of looked ather and I said why don't you
tell them?
Why, right, and she's, you know, she's the whole.
Oh well, I don't want to getinvolved, I don't want to say
anything sort of thing, and tome that was like a big fail.
It's like if you love me and ifyou adore me and you see me as

(25:04):
your best option, you're goingto do what it takes to make me
look good in front of otherpeople, not just sort of like
step aside and just be like, oh,I don't want to participate in
this conversation, right?
So these are like some of theobservations that I've made over
time and I've got a whole bunchmore in the chapter.
I don't want to go through themall to give it all away and
stuff, but you know, you guyscan find the book towards the
end of the year.

Darren (25:21):
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It's a very interesting point,though, because it works both
ways.
You would also want to elevatethem and showcase them to other

(26:04):
people too, right, and I thinkthat's a yeah, you don't want to
make her look bad.

Richard (26:08):
yeah, you don't want to make her look bad.
I mean, if you want to, inviteher into your life.

Darren (26:11):
You don't want to make her look bad either.
Exactly it's like, presentable,like everyone is presentable.
You're presentable, they'representable.
I think they a good kind oflitmus test, is like you could
almost like leave them with yourmates, chat with your mates,
whatever, and then you wouldcome back to the conversation
with you being positioned betterat the end of it, everyone's
like, oh, it's like it's hurtperson's uh opinion almost to
some degree it's.

Richard (26:31):
It's really nice when you have a woman that makes you
look good in front of otherpeople.
I don't like I shouldn't haveto do this for myself all the
time.
I think that if a woman trulyloves you, then she'll support
your mission.
She'll be about what you'reabout and even if she doesn't
like something I you know, shewants to get married.
You know, for example, uh, evenif she doesn't like something,
I you know, she wants to getmarried.

(26:51):
You know, for example, uh, evenif she doesn't like something,
she understands why and willsupport.
You know your position and thatboundary and tell the other
people why, sort of thing in afavorable way, in a favorable
light, sort of thing it alsoincreases your status to some
degree when you have someonethat's like they're taking care
of you so I'll give you anexample and like.

Darren (27:09):
Again, the only anecdotal experience I have is
my own and my wife, uh, for ourbusiness.
So we have like a media company.
We run like podcasts forcompanies and founders and so on
, so forth.
But, to keep it simple, we doin-person dinners.
So I did one in new york when Ifinished a new york trip.
I think I dropped you a messagearound that previously.
Oh, actually, no, I knew youwere in toronto.

(27:30):
That's the reason why I didn't.
Um, but basically we just didan in-person dinner and my wife
was there and we're at this longtable and there's people all
different founders, alldifferent company owners, all
different executives and eliseis kind of like almost talking
about like what we do outside ofeverything and I'm like oh yeah
, we have like this, we havethis, we have this, whatever.
And then overall increases, likethe, just the general awareness

(27:53):
of what we do and mypositioning and I'm not just
like this random business guy onthe internet, right, and it's
like these small social cues,the small nuances, which works
really well.
Does that make sense overall?
So it's non-tangible, but ifyou, if you can look through,
like the fucking lens, you cansee like, oh, there's a massive
like or a way to this, like itis a huge benefit to everybody

(28:14):
as a result yeah, yeah,absolutely something I want to
ask you about, too, is like sowhen our first podcast came out,
which is like two or threeyears ago, that was when like
woke bs and woke media wasreally blowing up right.
That was like kind of like peakcraziness.
Now we kind of see like thependulum swing the other way,

(28:36):
which is like more that kind ofwell, more like the masculine
routes being like, more likeshown again right, like Trump is
like bringing that out more.
I feel like it's.
I feel like it's coming outmore naturally as a result and
like with Twitter and even withlike yeah, so especially with
twitter.
Actually, how do you thinkabout relationships now and
generally the, the overall ideaof it, I think at a higher level

(29:02):
, versus like before it was likeoh, like you know, women are
going to work, they're going tobe executives, they're going to
be at this top level, and likethat was like what was kind of
pushed.
Do you think that's going tokind of swing back now, or is it
too?

Richard (29:13):
early?
Not really, no, I think.
I think as a guy, you're alwaysgoing to run into the element
of the boss girl.
Um, you know the strong,independent woman.
Um, you know you go girl, uh,sort of thing, put off family.
Uh, you know, doing anything fora man like they still hear the
same message, like women shouldnever do anything for the
express pleasure of a man theystill hear that same messaging

(29:35):
not in those exact words, butyou know, if you can sort of
distill it like that's what thefemale primary social order is
still, sort of like tellingwomen, put off having kids, you
can have it later on in life, um, you can have kids at 41 if you
want, right, there's anabundance of women, of women on
dating apps in their latethirties and forties that are
like open to having children orwanting to have a family, and

(29:55):
you know stuff like that.
So there's still, you know,there's still believing the
feminist lie sort of thing.
So I don't think much of it haschanged dramatically that I can
see.
I would say that like thependulum hasn't swung yet, I
think it's still swinging inthat direction yeah.

Darren (30:12):
Do you think, though, that women who want to
prioritize their career and nothave children like actually want
that, or they don't want that?
Like what's your thoughts?

Richard (30:23):
I think, inherently, at some point they come to the
realization that that beliefthat they have, or that they
thought they had, it isn't true.
And the biological ticking,that feeling that they have,
cause you can't.
You can't override millions ofyears of DNA, like, like it's
hardwired, and like it'shardwired in women to to have
children, to find a high valueman and raise those kids.

(30:47):
Um, that's why they're here.
The reason why we're here is toscatter seed right, um, you're
never going to change that.
You know, despite men tellingother men, just go your own way,
avoid women, they're allhorrible.
And women telling other women,you know, put off a family, put
off, um, you know, finding agood man, or locking down a good
man, or or don't follow hisboundaries, you know you do

(31:10):
whatever you want, you'll find aguy that will accept.
You know those, those bossgirls, sort of tendencies, sort
of thing.
So there's still a big divide,you know, between the sexes.
You still see men and womensort of struggling to come
together.
But I think that we're bettertogether than what we are apart.
It's just that there's thisnarrative, that sort of
brainwash, both sexes.
Yeah, it's very difficult to dobecause I mean, they've you know

(31:30):
they've got, you know they'll.
They'll go to school for years.
They'll frame degrees inmahogany with little letters
after the name.
They think they're important.
They'll put on a masculine suitwith padded shoulders so they
make themselves look like men.
They'll go and behave like menall day long and then they want
to come home and be women andit's like they have a hard time

(31:52):
with that, right, um, you knowI've dated a lot of professional
women.
My ex-wife is a lawyer.
You know I found that they havea very hard time going out into
the workforce putting a bigdent in the universe, or a small
dent in the universe even, um,and then wanting to be in the
frame of a strong, masculine man, what, what?
What they usually find is theytry to find a close approximate
sorry, a close approximation ofa you know, if I can put it this

(32:17):
way some kind of an equal.
It's like, oh, I have acorporate gig working for such
and such company, making Xnumber of dollars a year, and
Bill uh makes X amount ofdollars working for this company
.
So you know, I found my equal,or you know something along that
line.
But women don't really want anequal.
They want to be able to look upto a giant.
They want to be with a man.
That's better.
That's their hypergamous nature.

Darren (32:40):
I saw that so much in the nine to five world because
you had people in consulting andthen there's like a consulting
you know consortium of likethree or four companies and it's
oh, but this person works atkpmg, or this person works at
mckinsey, or whatnot.
Um, but but what I what I foundin that regard.
I didn't mean to interrupt you,sorry.
It was just the fact that, likethey're both, they're both just

(33:01):
fighting for the same thing,and then there's, there's just
an absence, there's an absenceof everything, because, yeah,
there's no there's no clearlydefined masculine energy.

Richard (33:10):
There's no clearly defined feminine energy.
Like you'll see this a lot, youknow, with women on dating apps
and they'll, you know, messageyou or they'll say something
like uh, you know, so what doyou do for a living?
And they'll give you their fullresume, something along the
lines of uh, I have a degree inai generation and a bachelor's
of law, the blah blah and a Idon't know a 10 year old
daughter and I have a divorcefor 12 years.

(33:32):
And like there's again, youknow, there's no guy that you
know thinks themselves gee, youknow when they're painting the
ideal picture of the woman theywant to be with.
I want a woman that has a degreein AI, with a law degree and an
11 year old daughter, and hasbeen divorced for such and such
year and looking for a committed, long-term relationship.
It's like, like they'rebasically describing a man and

(33:56):
that's what makes men attractiveto women.
So they think in their headswell, if I describe what makes
men attractive to women, to aman, because I've accomplished
these things, then I'll hookthis guy.
And it's like no, most of theseguys just want to hear I'm
beautiful or see, you know,pictures of beauty.
Uh, you know they're beautiful,they're feminine, they love
cooking you a fantastic meal andum doing sweet and fun things

(34:20):
like I couldn't agree more.
It's not relevant because womendon't share their pot of gold
with men, and I think men have,men are starting to realize that
if I was compared to even myown wife, like super, super,
super feminine stays at home.

Darren (34:32):
Doesn't compete with me on anything polar opposite to me
, like literally polar opposite.
I'll tell you a funny story.
So I traveled from here toDubai quite a lot for podcasting
.
I brought all my equipment.
It was a shit show man.
I brought like four cameras,all the light work, got
everything set up, landed on aSaturday, like recorded all day,
stayed up all night, was justrunning off like caffeine and

(34:54):
nicotine for 24 hours.
And I rang Elise and I was like, oh, like, how was your
Saturday?
And she was like, oh, so busy.
She was like I was painting ourdog's birthday sign and I
couldn't decide between babyblue or like maroon.
She was like I took me like twohours in the art store.
And I was like perfect, perfectGo back and do that and take

(35:14):
your time on this weekend.
You know, and I think that'swhy it works well in my instance
, right, I saw a perfectillustration of this a few weeks
ago.

Richard (35:22):
So I was on a yacht trip, so I did this catamaran
trip down in the British VirginIslands.
Uh, mastermind yachts and um,we all do the intro at the
beginning like, hey, who are youand why are you here?
And I listened to the couplesspeak.
I'm I'm always very, veryattentive and there was one
couple that sort of started.
You know, he was 25, she wasmaybe 21.
I think she was a physicaltherapist or something like that

(35:43):
.
And you know she was talkingabout her accomplishments and,
uh, you know she loves physicaltherapy and the working and how
she helps athletes and blah,blah, blah sort of thing.
And, you know, wants to get hernext level up, whatever.
Um, but there was noacknowledgement of him, the
relationship or anything likethat.
Then there was another gal whohad been with a guy for 10 years
and her soundbites weresomething along the lines of hi,

(36:05):
I'm so-and-so and um, you knowI've been with uh Matt for
whatever so, and um, you knowI've been with uh Matt for
whatever.
Um, he's basically retired me,I'm looking forward to becoming
a mother and his wife andraising our kids and I basically
do whatever he tells me to doand I help him out with his
tasks, right?
It's like huge differencebetween the two.
And guess which couple is stilltogether a few weeks later,

(36:29):
right?
The one where she wants tobecome a wife and a mother and,
you know, does whatever he tellsher to do.
And the other couple with theboss.
Babe, they broke up.
I just found out recently.

Darren (36:41):
Man, it's crazy.
I'll tell you another funnystory on that.
I love the polar opposite of it, because being in the the space
, I, I see I see the contrastquite a lot.
Uh, like a big thing for me wasobviously again retire my wife,
whatever that means, you know,just taking care of her,
basically.
And uh, the other day I waslike hey, can you just please
help me like take a photo ofthese receipts that we need from

(37:02):
my accountant here, because Ihave a portfolio company in bali
and I was like I just need likeit's fucking boring as fuck,
but I need to take all photos ofall these receipts.
And she's like, yeah, happy,happy to happy, as because she
used the card Like she used thecard all the time.
I'm like, just if you don't mindwhen you take, when you use the
card, just take a photo of thereceipt, upload it to Google
drive, so the accountant has it.
She's like fantastic, and forfood, that's the end of it.

(37:27):
Like we both don't party, wedon't go out and everything you
know, and I just think it's it'sjust simple, like it's just
like a simpler way because likethe essence is actually on the
relationship.
Again, I'm not saying thingsare perfect 100, but I but like
I'm actively working on it, likethat's why that's a big thing.
I'm saying here is like I wantto always be working on it to
try to get better, just like Iwork on my fitness, just like I

(37:49):
work on the business right.
Um, how do you think about that?
Like, do you think that guysand women together, collectively
, exclusively or individually,should be like consciously
looking at their relationshipand then looking at gaps and
trying to improve it?

Richard (38:05):
she won't do it.

Darren (38:06):
You have to lead that you have to know what you're
doing.
Do you think that should bedone?

Richard (38:11):
I think, as a guy, if you want to stay married for a
long time and raise yourchildren to adults and yeah,
definitely how do you thinkabout going about doing that?
it's tough, um, that's.
That's a lot of what myfollow-up book's about is, sort
of like maintaining that overthe long term, um, so, so I'm
going through the process oflike itemizing that and making

(38:32):
sure the chapters are ascomplete as possible.
So there's there's quite a fewsteps, but there's an
intentionality that that thathas to exist in a man's head in
a relationship at all times.
You can't relax as a guy.
You know the guys that relax.
They start sitting on the couchwatching sports, yelling at the
tv with cheeto dust on theirbeard and their fat gut and, um,

(38:53):
you know, she's out with herfriends complaining about what a
dork or a lazy guy, that he isright.
And when they start getting tothat point, like when there's
contempt in the relationship,one for the other, then that's
the clock that ticks down to theend.
Contempt is it.
Is it?
You know, when you starthearing one of the people in the

(39:13):
relationship say something likeyou know he's a loser or she's
a bitch, or something like that,you know it's, um, it's going
to end at some point probably.

Darren (39:23):
How else can you maintain a relationship at a
very high level?

Richard (39:27):
You again, you know, without getting to the to all
the specific details, cause Iwant to make sure that I that I
outline it correctly and orderlyin the book you, you have to be
intentional.
You like small things that mostguys don't contemplate, like.
I'll give you an example.
Um, she says to you hey, youknow, my friend contacted me and
I want to go see uh, I don'tknow this band 3000 miles away

(39:52):
and I got a free ticket andyou're in a relationship, she's
committed to you and herfriend's a guy.
It's like one of those thingswhere you have to say to her
look, um, not wise, that's anunwise choice.
You really shouldn't even beasking me a question like that.
You know I'm not gonna be in arelationship or take a woman
seriously that wants to travelwith another guy to go see a

(40:13):
rock concert where there'salcohol, drugs, you know all
kinds of stuff that have.
Like, why would you even ask methat question?
And start getting curious and,you know, pushing back in that
sense.
But you should never really getto that point, right, like she
should never really even thinkabout asking you a question like
that.
Like, um, so it's one of thosevery small things out of

(40:33):
hundreds that you sort of haveto be aware of and manage
properly, like girls nights out.
You know, even if it's like youknow we're going to get
together with the girls fromwork and we're going to have
dinner and maybe go outafterwards, then I would just
say to her okay, have fun atdinner, but I expect you to come
home after dinner.
I'm not having my woman out ata nightclub, Right, and she
should be.
Okay.

(40:53):
That sounds great Like.
No, no protesting.
But if you start getting thingslike oh, why are you
controlling, why are youinsecure?
You know controlling why you'reinsecure, you know stuff like
that.
I'm not controlling, I'm notinsecure.
If you want me to care aboutyou, if you want to be in a
relationship with me, I'm nothaving somebody that I care
about doing things that couldput the relationship at jeopardy
.

Darren (41:13):
If you were truly committed, you wouldn't even
think of those things, correct.

Richard (41:17):
But women are told today to behave like men, right?
So we're going to go out andhave dinner with the girls, then
go out to the bar or the clubafterwards, right?

Darren (41:24):
it's like having tinder downloaded and going through it,
but not meeting up with someone.
It's like if you want orcommitted, you wouldn't be doing
that in the first place yeah,right exactly it's.
It just shouldn't be cominginto like what's focal is causal
, so like if someone isintentionally doing something
like that, then they're puttingthemselves in that scenario.
Yeah, and there's, there'ssomething that's beyond done
there, like they have to undothat process.

(41:45):
Yeah, at a high level.
What else is coming up in thatnew book like that?
You're really focusing on that.

Richard (41:52):
You really want people to acknowledge and really grasp
the idea with going forward um,some of the areas that I lean
into are like the like there'scertain things that women don't
like that they want you to stopdoing and, in certain scenarios,
just because she doesn't likesomething doesn't mean that you

(42:13):
stop doing it, you know?
If you know what I mean, right.
Give an example.
Um, well, I mean, here's asimple one.
Um, you know, why don't youpost me on your social media,
right?
Well, because I'm a publicfigure.
There's unhinged weirdos on theinternet.
Why would I post somebody thatI love on social media to the

(42:38):
world and say, hey, this is mygirl, or, you know, even your
children.
I see that all the time.
You know, people use theirchildren for social media clout,
and I don't understand that.
Right?
Like, if you love your children, why would you say, hey, this
is what my child looks like, gofind her and do something
nefarious, like that's basicallywhat you're opening the door to
, right?
So it's like that's a boundarythat I have.
I'm not going to post you onsocial media because I don't
want unhinged weirdos botheringyou or adding complexities to my

(43:00):
relationship, and that's justthe way that it's going to be
right.

Darren (43:05):
Just almost like you're having a reason why you're not
doing something, like almostjust understanding why.
But I think most guys don'thave a reason why they don't do
things though right, like ifthey have bad habits or
something.
They don't have thejustification as the winner
after.

Richard (43:20):
I think for a lot of women, they automatically assume
, if you don't showcase them orput them up on a pedestal on
your social media or praise themon their birthday or
Valentine's day or anniversary,that you don't love them or that
you're hiding them and whatever.
It's like all of that stuff?
It's just blah, blah, blah,right, like.
That's just like the continuousnarrative, right, and it's
funny because whenever you seeit and I'm sure you've seen this
and maybe some of your audiencehas seen this too, but you'll

(43:42):
see it a lot of the time onsomething like Facebook, where a
guy will put her up on apedestal happy fourth or eighth
anniversary to my beautiful wife.
Without her, I'd be nothing.
Um, you know, she's my otherhalf, she's the boss, she's, uh,
you know, I'm so lucky to haveher.
Um, I don't know, she's out ofmy league, like hashtag's out of

(44:05):
my league, like hashtag, likeout of my league or some shit
like this.
And I go like this every time Isee that and then I'll click
her social media and there'snothing.
It's crickets, right, or it's aphotograph of her on their
anniversary, right, like, notthem together, just her sort of
thing, right, um, so that's anincredibly bad look.
You know that's a.
That's not a good look andthat's something that you have
to be aware of.
As a guy, right, like youshould, you should protect her.

(44:27):
You should love the woman.
I mean, obviously you know ifyou love her, but you shouldn't
be putting her up on thepedestal and worship me like, uh
you know, if you treat her likea celebrity, she's going to
treat you like a fan, right?
So if you pedestalize her butyou're not getting anything
reciprocated or she's not evenoffering that to you from the
get-go, it's like you have to bewise about these things and see

(44:49):
how you know these, thesepieces move right and manage
that as well.

Darren (44:54):
I think there's like a relationship If you were to put
onto a onto like a graph, likethe guys that post about their
like Valentine's day, like themore that they post, it's almost
like the worst relationshipthat they actually have, the
weaker the relationship actuallyis.
Yeah, I mean, I actually meanmy wife always joke about that.
Like I know guys that are likein horrific relationships yeah
extremely like negative, likefucking up their life, fucking

(45:18):
up their business and everything.
But then they'll post beinglike oh my god, like this girl's
like so amazing, here's ourflowers.

Richard (45:23):
Like it's crazy, I make a joke of it like around
halloween or christmas, whereyou drive around and you know,
you see like elaborate christmasdecorations, you know, for
example.
Or or halloween decorationswith a bale of hay and the big
uh, like it's all orchestrated,it's very fancy and elaborate.
You can tell that they spenthours, if not like an entire
weekend, putting this thingtogether.

(45:44):
And, honestly, man like you canwalk by that guy's house and
just think to yourself yeah,they're not fucking, because if
they were, why do they have somuch time to put three days
worth of work into somedecorations, right?

Darren (45:56):
yeah, yeah for sure, and this is this is no connection,
because I think a big thing I'venoticed from like leaving like
the western world, and I thinkthat'd be an interesting
conversation as well.
Just my observations being inlike the east for like five
years, is that a lot of thethings that you see, especially
around a christmas and likecelebrating christmas if you're

(46:16):
not religious which a lot ofpeople are not is that it's like
a fucking, it's like a band-aidor like putting a plaster over
a problem, and I noticed thiswith like yeah, you'll see it.

Richard (46:29):
With, like the christmas sweaters, like the
like the family photos, you know, the christmas sweaters, the
christmas pajamas and stuff likethat and the guy sitting there
wearing the most dorky outfit,looking like an absolute clown
the fucking presents dude, allthat kind of stuff.

Darren (46:43):
Like it's again, it just shows like the weakening of the
relationship.
But I think you know not to belike, not like blame the west,
but I think consumerism doeshave a big play on that in terms
of like, oh, like.
You need to have this, you needto, you need to like prove, to
your person that you need that,something like that, some
bullshit, right?
we love to talk challengeswhereas, like for the last

(47:03):
couple years, I've had like nochristmas tree, I've had like no
like presents.
My wife, we just fucking.
We usually do something duringchristmas, because in asia, like
, they don't really celebratechristmas, so they're might like
do like a fucking spa day orsomething, but we do together
like and that's it, that's justthat's basically it.
So it's just like any normal day, and I don't know.
I just think it's veryinteresting to observe, because

(47:24):
I grew up in that world wherebyyou know like super toxic
parents, like fucked uprelationship, like screaming
abuse, all that bullshit that itwas almost like oh, christmas
was like, when you pretendedthat everything was okay and it
was 10 times worse.
Like 10 times worse, that way soI think I've almost had like a,
a reaction to that whereby I'vegone like the opposite.

(47:45):
I'm like I want none of thatnone of that, and I think it
actually gives me anxiety.
Thinking of that, I'm actuallyit's funny because my birthday
is on saturday and at least it'slike, oh, like, what do you
want to do?
And I was like nothing I don'twant to fucking do anything.
Why do I like I don't want afucking presence?
You?

Richard (48:02):
I'm 29.

Darren (48:03):
I'm 29 though, as in, I'm good, I'm fine, let's just
go for like a steak in theevening or something, you know.
Yeah, it's interesting dude.
Some other things I want toreally really want to dive into.
I want to make sure I didn't Ididn't miss anything here.
It was uh, you spoke about theanti-fragile man and the
different scenarios from fragile, robust and anti-fragile.

(48:24):
What came up to think aboutthat?
What was the idea behind thatconcept?
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(48:47):
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(49:11):
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Richard (49:26):
I mean you can apply the concept to a lot of areas of
your life.
It's a great book.
The book's called Anti-Fragileand it illustrates how chaos
affects culture, society,religion, your life.
You know personally stuff likethat.
Um, but chaos is going to comeat you as a man right Like um,

(49:48):
there's always some difficultyin a man's life.
We always have some sort of afire to put out and you know,
the question that you got to askyourself is when chaos arrives
in your life, do you becomebetter as a result of it or do
you become worse?
And if you can improve the um,the circumstances, and level up,

(50:08):
you know, to a to a stronger,more robust version of yourself
as a result of chaos, like youcan use COVID as a good example.
Um, I, I, during my podcast,often drop a call and link and
you know people will call intothe show and ask questions and I
had a lot of people around thattime going.
You know I work for a company.
It's a good job.

(50:29):
You know I've got a mortgageand a family to take care of and
they're shoving this untested,experimental jab down my throat.
I have to take it.
Um, you know my wife's tellingme I have to take it, but I
don't really want to take it.
I don't really see the point.
I'm healthy.
I don't really need it.
What do you think, rich?
And it's like well, youstructured your life in such a
way that you're fragile.

(50:50):
You have to do what the Collegeof Physicians says.
You have to do what the UpperCanada Law Society says.
You have to do whatever thegovernment body says, the
military body that you're in.
Like.
A lot of people just quit their, their jobs, and I think the
people that quit their jobs andmoved on was a strong
demonstration of I'manti-fragile and I will become
better as a result of this, andmany of them did.
You know.

(51:10):
They maybe started up abusiness or they moved on to a
better paying job where thatwasn't a requirement, um, but a
lot of people, because they'refragile, ended up having to
comply, bend the knee and theydid what they were told to do,
and some of them are sufferingas a consequence of that today.

Darren (51:27):
It's crazy, right, because that rise from COVID
really just proved everything.
It really proved like, itreally showed character at the
end of the day.
It just showed true character,like whether you're going to
bend the knee and fall over, orlike make something of yourself.
I think that was the bigturning point for a lot of
people whether how, how the restof their life was going to play

(51:47):
out and I know a really goodexample of anti-fragility.

Richard (51:50):
I think you could use the tape brothers, um you know,
because they've they've been hitwith everything and they've
only become more popular andmore robust as a consequence of
that yeah, man, and I think theythey set the tone for so many
different things.

Darren (52:04):
If you think about it, they had a huge impact on me.
I don't give a shit what peoplesay, they had a massive impact
on me and, uh, I've, I've, youknow, I've spoken to a lot of
their mates, I've interviewed alot of them as well, um, over
the years, and I've had a hugeimpact.
And it's just because I thinkthis is kind of has a nice segue
into what you do when meetingup with guys in the community
that you've built and everything.
It's just that there there wasno, there was nobody there

(52:26):
before we went through that waveof just extreme wokeism.
It was just getting worse andworse.

Richard (52:32):
There wasn't anybody there before.

Darren (52:33):
There was nobody as loud before there was nobody as loud
, but the way that they set thebrand up was like cool it was.
It was like oh, like this islike cool you know people can
really resonate with it.
Um, I guess there's like a lotof guys in isolation that
probably you were familiar withor you've seen, but I guess,
like they just hit the narrativeso well, they're like this is a

(52:57):
narrative, these are the painpoints.
It was perfect, and whetherit's engineered or organic or a
semi combination of both, itdoesn't really matter, because
what they hit was completelyaccurate.
There's no two ways about it.
You know, it was justcompletely.
It opened up like a massivegaping hole.
I think that became such a big.
You know you had the war roomand then one of my friends, jack

(53:18):
I think you might know JackHopkins as well Really good guy.
He started a new elite.
Then that really started thesnowball of oh shit, guys are
super lonely.
What are we going to do,literally?
What are we going to do aboutit?
Yeah, how have you seen that?
That effect, let's say evenyour community and the growth of
yours, because, dude, you'vebeen smashing this for so many

(53:39):
years yeah, I started creatingum communities for men 2016 or
17.

Richard (53:46):
I started using patreon back then, but then I saw how
woke they were and how theywould uh treat people that they
disagreed with and de-platformthem.
So I sort of had to build myown ecosystem around it.
Um, but I'm always encouragingguys that are asking for it to
join my community right there.
You know, they're always likehey, you know, where do I find
other strong, virtuous,competent men that are doing

(54:07):
something, that are influentialand successful, and it's like
well, you can, you can go andyou know, create your own
community and find people andinvite them into it.
Or you can join one.
You know you can.
You know you can buy your wayinto a room, sort of thing.
So that's what I've created.

(54:28):
And you know we have differenttiers.
Uh, there's differentinformation in the different
communities.
There's different types ofevents in the different
communities.
Like you know, if you get intokind of a more entry level one,
then you might be doing thingslike um, a Tough Mudder, or
going to San Diego and doingsome Navy SEALs training or
Or boxing um sort of testingyourself that way, and there's.
Or boxing um sort of testingyourself that way.
And there's, you know, there'schill out elements of it too as
well.
Um, you know, you get into thehigher level tiers and you might
end up on a super yacht in theMediterranean or on Richard

(54:51):
Branson's you know, uh, neckerIsland.
You know, I was there a fewweeks ago.
Um, you know, with otherentrepreneurs and sort of like
networking in that sense.
So, um, guys should nothesitate to lean into what it is
that they're looking for andactually take action.
I think the vast majority ofmen they're like yes, I want to
find strong, virtuous men and,and you know, do more with my

(55:12):
life and network and level up.
And it's like cool.
Um, you know, here's a websiteyou know, go and join.
Oh, that's too much money.
I don't want to spend that kindof money to go and do it.
Okay, so you're not seriousright?

Darren (55:22):
Yeah, dude, I always say you have to pay with your
wallet to make the change.
Yeah, I don't give a shit.
If it's a dollar, it's a dollar.
There has to be an exchange ofvalue for you to actually get
off.
To get off Cause you don'tvalue it.
I've had clients before thathad some things for free.
How many of your friends do youknow of when you were younger
you could have shared with themsome information would change

(55:42):
their life and you probably didbut you're generally not paying
attention, you're just listening.
Exactly, and you're just likeviewing and you're like, oh,
fuck it, like it's okay, I mightjust like unlock or whatever.
But if you did, I've made aninvestment in a program recently

(56:04):
changes in the company and Ijust knew I was like a lot of
money, I was paid, done whatever.
But um, I think, uh, I thinkyou man, you'd really like bali.
I think you should actuallyconsider just even coming here,
even running a retreat here,like because a lot of retreats
are done here, a lot of like, uh, you know male, there's like
amazing.

Richard (56:19):
we do almost all of ours in north america right now.
I got too many familyobligations here so to travel
for like three or four weeksdoesn't really make sense, so we
keep most of them here, butwe'll but we'll certainly build
it out from from that in thefuture.
The core audience that we haveis in Canada and the United
States.

Darren (56:36):
Even yourself, you wanted to even come for a break.
Like the.
The quality of gyms here, thefighting here, the food here is
exceptional.
Like the quality of gyms here,the fighting here, the food here
, uh, is exceptional.
Like it's really good quality,like really good son, really
good people and everything youknow.
Um, so what do you think guysare are really uh lacking,
though, because if you thinkabout like what's that core
driver?
because I find like that, a lotof those groups though, that

(56:59):
they don't even teach themanything, they're just putting
them together with people, right?

Richard (57:02):
Yeah, um, yeah, you have to teach people things.
So I'll give you an example.
One of the staple events thatwe do now is we've got 32 people
coming up in two months toToronto Pearson.
Then we're going to drive themup to Algonquin Park, which is a
provincial park up here, whichyou think okay, whatever

(57:29):
provincial park, how is?
Is that anything?
Okay?
Well, we're going to put all ofyour stuff in a canoe and then
you're going to canoe in about18 kilometers portage over some
difficult terrain with rocks androots and trees and rapids and
rivers and stuff, and thenyou're going to have to set up a
camp and then you're going tohave to cut down trees and get
wood for fire, um, and then, andthen and then sort of thing.
Right, it's like um, there fire,um, and then and then and then
sort of thing.
Right, it's like um, there's alot of moving parts to it and
there's some things I'm not evengoing to talk about, but
there's, but there's a lot ofinteresting, you know,

(57:49):
components of it that everybody,by the time they're done with
that weekend, it's like this isthe best thing I've ever done,
right, and that's one of ourleast expensive trips.
I think that one's like around$3,000, you know, for the uh,
for the entire experience, sothey're not even that expensive.
It's just like you know.
You get an opportunity to goand test yourself with other men
and do really interestingthings.

Darren (58:09):
It's guys bond through really difficult times.

Richard (58:13):
You have to do things like men bond over doing things.
You know the.
You know I read this um studyonce where I was talking about
the reason why women will sitand talk opposite each other on
a table and a lot of the timesmen seem to do better when we
sit side by side, right, andit's because we would go out and
hunt and there's a saber toothtiger and we'd be in the bushes
with our spears and I'd bewhispering to him and he'd

(58:33):
whisper to me and we'd line upthe other guy with some hand
signal sort of thing.
And it's like you know, weinteract very, very differently
than women do and I think menhave to do shit.
Women like talking about stuff,which is fine, but I think you
know, for men you can't sitaround.
Be a keyboard warrior, you know.
Pretend like you'reaccomplishing something in the
world just by typing somethingin or making fun of somebody
online.
It's like get up off your assand let me see you do something.

Darren (58:57):
And it's funny because I think sometimes not always but
the more you trust someone, themore you can work with someone.
So I think, uh, what?
My head of client success in mycompany, his name's Tom.
We met through podcasting Thenhe was just a fucking killer and
I was like hey, like could youhelp me here?
So I was like paying him foradvice and then I was like hey,
why don't you come work for us?
And then we built out ourcoaching program and then he

(59:20):
built a ground up and we worktogether like all day, every day
, and like I'm not asking himhow his feelings are right,
we're just working on thingstogether and it works really
well.
And then we go for steaks andchill and go to gym and so on,
so on and forth.
But I think it's a really goodbarometer and what I say to him
is like our personalprofessional relationship is
like it's just because we trusteach other that we can do it

(59:40):
together.
I think.
Think, if you don't fully trustsomeone, it's like okay, that's
not a good idea.

Richard (59:45):
Yeah, and you can build that trust.
You can build that brotherhood,that bond, by doing stuff.
I don't.
I don't trust anybody foranything unless they're in my
community, like anytime I got tohire somebody for something or
to do something, it's like Idon't go in my community and
I'll just say and signal, hey,I'm looking for this.
You know who's got this, uhskill set, who's got this

(01:00:19):
capacity?
Or you know, can you refer meto somebody?
And we sort of, you know,protect each other.
I'm not saying you're hostiletowards them, but you're more
indifferent towards them thanyou are caring about the people
in your inner circle.
And those circles get tighterand tighter, by the way, like
you and your wife would be onthe inside right.
And then it's like you know you, you're your wife and your
friends or your businesspartners are like that, like
those concentric rings kind oflike a tree, sort of like build

(01:00:41):
out, and then at some pointthere's a ring that becomes a
perimeter that you just don'treally care much about those
people or their opinions on theoutside.

Darren (01:00:49):
I think a challenge for a lot of young guys, though, is
the fact that, as they gothrough their twenties and
thirties, they lose theconnection with their older
friends.

Richard (01:00:57):
A lot of men lose friendships, especially,
especially in breakups anddivorce, especially in a divorce
.

Darren (01:01:05):
A lot of lonely guys at that point.
How have you seen that play out?

Richard (01:01:09):
how does it usually play out is she ends up getting
all the friends and um, you knowthe couples and stuff like that
and the wives and girlfriendswill say to their husbands and
boyfriends yeah, you can't hangout with bill anymore, because
you know they're gettingdivorced and we have to pick a
side fuck man that's brutal dudeand and she gets to pick, pick
the side, by the way, not himwhich tells you who's leading

(01:01:32):
that relationship, which alsotells you about the strength of
that relationship and how longit's going to last, which won't
be very long so what's youradvice for guys in that regard?

Darren (01:01:43):
because at 30s 40s they're probably focused on
their business right, and atthat point then they only have a
small group of friends to beginwith.
Like what's, what's your advicefor those guys when they come
true?

Richard (01:01:53):
well you, have to either find a community or or
you have to join one.
So it's you know.
Back to the original point.
I mean you can you can find goodguys at a gym.
You can find find good guys ata dojo where people fight.
You can find good guys at Idon't know any kind of masculine
pursuits.
I just joined a gun club, notnecessarily because I want to
shoot guns or I like to go thereevery weekend, but it's like I

(01:02:16):
want to support a gun club.
It's mostly men, they're mostlyconservative, there's a social
element to it.
I also want to give them mymoney so I have a share in that
business in the land.
That's on their sort of thing.
Um, you know, so there'sdifferent ways that you can sort
of like put your money incertain places and again like,
one of the best ones that Ioften tell guys to contemplate
is join a community, right, like, if you like what somebody's

(01:02:39):
doing and they offer a community, join it.
I mean that at first, make sureit's a good one, right, and
they actually do do in real lifeevents, cause a lot of them
it's like discord chat or signalchat or a Facebook group Like
these.
These, these Facebook groups,are the absolute worst.
It's it's just masturbation.
These guys are just sittingaround talking shit to each
other, sharing memes, not reallydoing anything.

(01:03:00):
They don't meet up in real life.
They don't test each other.
They don't even know how tothrow hands.
They don't know how to fight.
Like they're not competent,it's just talk, talk, talk.
It's like that's not very usefulto yourself or to the world,
like society, culture, everyeverybody out there hates a
useless guy.
They just don't.
They don't look at somebodythat's um, not doing anything

(01:03:26):
with their life as interesting,useful, competent somebody that
they want to be around, invitethem, uh, or introduce them to
other interesting, competent,resourceful men.
They're just nobodies.
So they're mostly invisible.
And a lot of these guyscomplain they're like I don't
understand why women don't wantto be.
It's because you're invisible,right, it's because you're not
doing anything interesting withyour life.
You're not, you're notresourceful, you don't have, uh,
you know, the capacity forviolence.

(01:03:47):
You're meek, you know you're,you know you've got arms like
pipe cleaners, like I see theseguys with like 11 inch arms and
it's like you know why do youthink women don't really look at
you in a strong way?

Darren (01:03:58):
that.
That was, that was my firstpoint originally right, which is
like the decline of the guy andlike fix, fix, fix themselves
first fix yourself first andthen, at that point, then okay,
go fill in the gaps it'shappening.

Richard (01:04:09):
I mean, like you see them at the gym now, like I
don't know what the what the gymculture is like in bali, but
like here, you know, you go andyou see this like cohort of a
lot of guys, sort of likeworking out together so they're
getting things done, but theyall look the same, they, they
all have the same broccolihaircut.
You know what I'm talking about.
Where it's like you know thecurls, and they're all wearing
the same crock shirt.
Like they all sort of likecreate their own exact look of a

(01:04:31):
carbon copy of one another,Like they don't sort of break
out from it.
But I think that's how youngmen are.
At least they're working outright.

Darren (01:04:44):
Like at least they're picking up heavy stuff and
putting it something that thatchallenges and stresses their
body and forces them to likepoke at each other a little bit,
right.
Well, that's why body's great,because you have people that
have kind of broken away andthey know that like, okay, you
need to get your shit together.
Well, there's two sides.
It's the extreme parody sidewhere it's just drink, probably
drugs and so on and it's theother side then of guys that are
actually like going after it.
But uh, the gym for me was thebiggest thing, right?
So after I, I blew up mykneecap when I was super young,
couldn't play a sport anymore,and then I was just with a

(01:05:07):
massive brace in the gym at 15years old.
It's one thing I enjoyed fromrugby, so it's just having that
level of discipline and usingthat level of discipline for
everything else.
And then I went on to competingand then I went into a few
other things as a result andhaving that as the highest bar
and it's like, okay, I want tostart a business, I want to
start a podcast, I want to startcreating more content.
I want to start writing.

(01:05:27):
I maybe want to write a bookone day.
Same shit, same principle.

Richard (01:05:32):
Last question for you is what's one belief about
relationships most men need tounlearn what's one thing about
relationships most men need tounlearn there's a lot um, being
nice, like like err, more onbeing an asshole like I wish

(01:05:52):
being nice was what worked onwomen that kept them around,
that wanted them to beenthusiastic about being with
you, but it just doesn't work.
That's not what they respondpositively to.
Um, you know, it's why in theuk they have that saying you got
to be mean to keep them keen,sort of thing.
Um, and I think that there'ssome truth to that.
And you have to be able to sayno, you have to be able to set
boundaries, you have to be ableto, uh, you have to have the

(01:06:14):
ability to walk away.
Um, most guys don't have thatability, let alone if they try
to execute on that ability.
They don't have the persona,they don't have the build, they
don't have the aura of that guythat actually get away with
saying like no, you're not goingto do that, or I'm not having
that, or I'm sorry, you know,we're done, I'm not going to
entertain you in a situationlike that.

Darren (01:06:37):
That is the same as, just like with a client
relationship.
It's a with or without youenergy.
You know I'm going to do thiswith or without you Client,
customer, partner, whatever Likeyou can come, it's going to be
fantastic.
But if you don't come, I'mstill going to be okay.

Richard (01:06:52):
It's still going to be fantastic.
You're just not going to behere.
You're going to miss out on it.

Darren (01:06:56):
Great point to finish up , man.

Richard (01:06:57):
This is awesome.

Darren (01:06:59):
I'd love to do it in person.
I feel like I'll never get youout of that room, but I would
love to do the next episode inperson, man.

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#281 Richard Cooper: Why Most Men FAIL in Relationships

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