#288 Jake Julius - How to Win Any Argument Effortlessly - Kickoff Sessions

Episode Transcript
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Jake (00:00):
There are some people out there who are very, very good
debaters, and also you have tohave a coherent worldview.
So if you want to use logic toits greatest effect, then you
have to have a logical worldview.
If you go up there and you'rejust sort of spitting facts, you
might be spitting bars, youmight be saying truth and
everything, but if you're not alittle bit funny and a little
bit warm and smiling andspeaking directly to people as

(00:20):
well, if you speak to theaudience, it can be overwhelming
, but if you isolate people inthe audience, then that's much,
much better thing to do.
We have these rules where we'relike we cannot falter on the 1%
, because that's what separatesus from everybody else, and like
we're really harsh withourselves.
Whenever I mess something upand it's a small thing instantly
try and take accountability.

Darren (00:38):
What if you could win any argument not by being louder
, but by being sharper?
Jake Julius is the founder ofRattlesnake TV, a YouTube
channel with over 800,000subscribers built entirely on
one thing Clear, persuasivecommunication.
In this episode, we unpackJake's exact framework for
persuasion how to speak withclarity, dismantle weak ideas

(01:01):
and influence anyone throughlogic, not emotion.
This one's not about debatingfor sport.
It's about masteringcommunication to win in business
life and leadership.
Where I want to start is howcan you win any argument with
logic and persuasion?

Jake (01:17):
Well, I mean, any argument is a difficult one because
there are some people out therewho are very, very good debaters
and also you have to have acoherent worldview.
So if you want to use logic toits greatest effect, then you
have to have a logical worldview, and this is why we see a lot
of people who are in this sortof like trans movement, for

(01:38):
example.
It's an illogical worldview, sothey actually can't win these
arguments as much as they try.
Like the other week I debated afew guys and the debate prompt
was is misgendering people hatespeech?
That's a really tough one todefend because it's illogical,
because when you, when you lookat gender, obviously gender is
something that's that's, we'rejust going straight into the

(01:58):
weeds here, by the way, we'rejust going straight for the
bunches.
So if you look at the genderargument, for example, it's
completely illogical becausewhat it actually comes down to
at its foundation is that I canjust choose my sex.
I can choose that I want to be,and that's an illogical
worldview.
And the way that they weretrying to argue it with me was

(02:19):
by saying there's been thesebrain scans done and these brain
scans show that actually, um,people who identify as trans
have more of a female type brain.
And I'm like and I said, okay,sure, I'll even grant you that
that there are these brain scansthat have been done and these
people show that, um, they'rethe wrong gender in their brain.
What if they don't feel likethey are?

(02:40):
And they were like what do youmean?
And I said, if a man apparentlyhas this female brain but he
says, no, I'm a man, is he a manor is he a woman?
The logic of that is that he'sa man because he said he is and
that's always what it refers to.
So if I've done my brain scanand I'm a man and I say, but I

(03:00):
feel like a woman, then what'sthis activist going to say?
He says, well, he's a womanbecause he feels like it.
So it doesn't matter aboutthese brain scans, it doesn't
matter about this other evidencethat you can basically pull out
of your ass.
Whatever they feel like is whatthey are.
So it's an illogical worldview.
So if you're coming from aworldview like that, then you

(03:21):
can't really use logic to winthe argument, because you don't
have a logical worldview.

Darren (03:25):
So you're saying you need to approach it only with
logic, not emotion, to face anargument, to face a debate.

Jake (03:34):
Yeah, what I was saying is the worldview is what's really
important first of all.
Right, because if you actuallyfollow logic to its conclusion,
to its logical conclusion, thenyou're going to arrive at
certain truths.
And it depends on if you resistthose truths because of your
ideological persuasion or if yougo with those truths, like, for
example, these people.
You can tell them until thecows come home about biology and

(03:55):
about logic and about all ofthese things that we can observe
that are just objectively true,but they will refuse to
actually engage with thosetruths because they have a
certain ideological leaning thatdoesn't allow them to do that.
So their worldview isfoundationally illogical, so
they actually can't use logic isworking against them in that
debate.
How do you get someone?

Darren (04:17):
to see the logical order as a result, because is there
an argument that your view isalso skewed right?
Like I say, everyone's viewedis entire, inherently biased yes
, yep, everyone's view isdefinitely inherently biased.

Jake (04:35):
So this is when debate becomes very interesting.
Right, because if you look atit, for example, like the
atheist debates versus thereligious debates, the atheists
can make some really strongarguments.
Right, the religious peopleChristians can make some really
strong arguments.
Muslims can make some reallystrong arguments, and this is
when these arguments willcompete against each other.

(04:55):
The natural biases will bethere, because people have
different sort of religiousleanings and persuasions.
However, there are certainthings that people will try and
argue that just are more or lessindefensible, like, for example
, the gender debate, and this issomething that's been like
actually in the debate sphere.
It's been crushed and no onereally wants to take that side

(05:17):
anymore, unless you're a littlebit crazy.
However, the question that youasked, though, that plays out
more in, for example, thereligious debates, like is
secularism better for society?
Is Christianity better forsociety?
Should we have Christianity inthe government?
Should we have religiousfoundations and principles that
influence our politicaldecisions, etc.
This is when both sides canmake really good arguments and,

(05:39):
yeah, obviously they're going tobe biased as well.

Darren (05:41):
Just want to take one quick break to ask you one
question have you been enjoyingthese episodes?
Because, if you have, I'dreally appreciate if you
subscribe to the channel so thatmore people can see these
episodes and be influenced tobuild an online business this
year.
Thank you, dude.
This is super interesting andthat's why I really wanted to
sit down with you on this.
So let's look at debate throughthe lens of religion.

(06:02):
You said about the atheistbelief being like somewhat
logical.
Right, they're able to be like,oh, maybe they're.
Like, you can't see it.
So therefore, it can't be true,right?
And I was thinking from ourchat on Friday, I've been like,
what are my beliefs?
Like what the fuck are mybeliefs, you know?
So I grew up in a Christiancountry, but I wouldn't say that

(06:24):
, like, my family are Christian.
They are Christian, they wouldsay that they are, but they
don't practice it, right, sothey just practice it.
And then I guess I grew up justnot really thinking about it,
like I don't think about am IChristian, am I atheist?
I don't think about it, right.
I just it's not somethingthat's that's active to me and

(06:45):
therefore I, as a result,therefore, to struggle to say I
am atheist because I I'm alsonot atheist in terms of I'm not
like I don't have a stamp in theground to say religion isn't
real.
Yeah, but then I also justdon't have the time.
I don't have the time, I don'tgive the time to be like oh,
I've read the bible, I've read x, I've read.
So how do you think about that?

(07:06):
Because what do you think aboutdebating about religion as a
result?
Because you're speaking withpeople who are either very
strongly in their belief systemor they just haven't thought
about it.

Jake (07:21):
Interesting.
Yeah, I'd say, from yourexplanation, you're not an
atheist because atheism has avery specific meaning.
So if you look at just theetymology of the word atheist
atheist, atheist right and ifyou put R-A before a word, the R
negates the theist right.
So if you're saying that you'rean atheist, you're saying that
there is no God.

(07:41):
You have a conviction and abelief that there is no God.
So I've spoken to a few peopleabout this and they'll say I'm
an atheist.
And I'll say what do you meanby that?
They were like well, you know,I just don't, I'm just not
really sure.
And I'm saying well, you're notan atheist, what you are is an
agnostic.
Because agnostic you look atthe etymology of that word
agnostic means, and I think thatall people are in some way

(08:01):
agnostic.
Because we don't have ultimateknowledge, right, we have logic
and we have reason and we canarrive at certain conclusions.
But when you're a religiousperson, when you're a deist, or
if you're a Christian, or ifyou're a Muslim, you're making a
knowledge claim, right?
And so this is a reallyinteresting philosophical

(08:23):
conversation around the idea ofepistemology.
So epistemology is is the studyof knowledge, right?
How do we know what we know,what do we know?
And then like, how can we, howcan we know it to be true?
So you've got like socratesback in the day, who you you've
heard of like the socraticmethod, right?
So this is where this all comesfrom.

(08:43):
Is the ancient greeks who askedquestions.
He would just go around andhe'd ask people what do you
think about this?
They'd say what they think.
How do you know that?
Why, why, why, why.
And then you get down to theroot of it and you find out why
people think what they think andwhy they know what they know,
right.
So I'd say it's interestingwhen you look at it from the
different perspectives, abouthow people arrive at their own

(09:05):
knowledge claims.
So I'd say that you're probablymore in the agnostic camp
because you just feel as thoughyou're without knowledge to make
a truth claim, to make anepistemological claim.
I definitely am a Christian,but I've arrived at that through
like the philosophical processof going down that

(09:25):
epistemological path and tryingto understand.
If I say I know something, howdo I know that?
And so I used to be a B atheist, right, and would you say you
did the research to be anatheist.
No, no, I was a fool.
I was a moron.

(09:48):
Was what?
I was?
Right if I spoke to my youngerself, because I used to be one
of those really cocky atheistswho would make fun of religious
people like, oh, you believe ina sky, daddy, you believe in
some bearded man in the sky?
But I was a moron because I hadno idea what I was talking
about.
I hadn't, like, I had nological justification for my
worldview, right?
So then the uh, the thing thatin 2019, 2020 that we don't
really like to speak about onYouTube too much, so we lose a

(10:11):
corporate reason.
You may remember that thing.
That happened, yeah, with thecough cough or whatever.
So that happened.
And then something strangehappened where I was seeing a
lot of evil take place around me, and I think that, naturally,
I'm a very disagreeable person,so I'm very like, I'm quite
repulsed by government overreachand these sorts of things, and

(10:33):
I would have considered myself alibertarian back then, which is
I believe in liberty andfreedom and that people should
be able to self-actualize, butI'm an atheist.
But then I started to see allthis evil and when I encountered
the evil, I thought to tomyself well, what, what is that
that I'm actually encounteringhere.
Is that real?
Or is this just something thatis a social construct and it's a

(10:54):
figment of our imagination, andthat if, ultimately nothing
matters?
If I'm an atheist and I believethat we're all just matter in
motion, we're all just basicallystardust and we're just.
We were fish and then we becamephilosophers and we're all
destined to perish in a heatdeath one day.
If I actually believe that,then what's evil that actually
doesn't exist, right, it's justa pure figment of the

(11:14):
imagination.
So I started to look into it.
Have this sort of existentialcrisis, in a way, where I was
thinking to myself well, evil,if I'm observing evil, then this
is just my own perception, it'smy own preference, basically,
of what is evil and what isn't.
But if evil does exist, if evilis a metaphysical reality and
when you talk about metaphysical, you're talking about things

(11:35):
that don't exist within thephysical right so we've got
physics, things that we canobserve and touch and feel and
put under a microscope, and thenyou've got metaphysics, which
is things like love, for example.
It's a metaphysical concept,philosophical idea, Anyway.
So I started to look at thesedifferent concepts and think,
well, if evil exists and if evilis real, there has to be a

(11:56):
counter to that, there has to bea good and there has to be love
and all these sorts of thingswhich I inherently and
intuitively know, right.
So then I started to look intowhat the good is, and obviously
you come to religiousconversations, because you can't
have these conversationswithout exploring religious
ideas, and so I started to think, well, if there is an ultimate

(12:17):
good like well, what istypically represented as an
ultimate good and generallywhat's typically represented as
an ultimate good, is God right,god is love, god is justice, god
is mercy, god is good, all ofthese sorts of things, and I'm
like treading in waters that Ifind very sort of conspiratorial
and everything at this stage,and so I started to look into

(12:37):
the logic of it.
What do the Christians actuallysay about God?
Do they have any actual logicaljustification?
Because throughout my teenageyears and 20s years, I've been
looking at these debates onlinewhere you'll see Christopher
Hitchens and Sam Harris and allof these guys using this
beautiful, lovely, floweryrhetoric to just destroy these

(12:58):
priests, right, and to destroythese Christians in a debate.
So I started watching them inlonger format and at this stage
I was looking at the rules ofdebate and the rules of logic.
And once you start looking intothat tell me if I'm getting on
too much of a tangent here, bythe way but once you start
looking into the rules of logicand the rules of debate, you

(13:24):
start to realize that it's likea game of chess, right, so there
are rules to the game.
I can't grab my castle and movediagonally In regards to logic
and debate and these sorts ofthings.
That would be a logical fallacy.
Right, there are actually rulesto the game.
And so what I started to realizewhen I looked into the rules of
logic and the rules ofconversation and debate and et
cetera, is that a lot of thetimes, what the atheists were

(13:45):
doing was just using quiteflagrant logical fallacies.
They would use a lot of appealto emotion, right?
They would say, well, if God isreal, then why would he have
done this and that, why is thisso much suffering?
Look at these little childrenin Africa.
They're suffering so much.
It's actually not a logicalargument, that's just an appeal
to emotion, right, and theywould use a lot of rhetoric

(14:08):
beautiful rhetoric, mind you,christopher Hitchens is an
absolute wordsmith.
But you look at the Christianarguments and they're actually
coming to logical justificationsabout why they believe in God.
Right, so we can get into it ifyou want.
But there are a few reallykiller arguments, I think, when
it comes to the existence of Godand to get back to your

(14:28):
question, that's how I've sortof incorporated that into my own
worldview is just by looking atthe logic of all of it.

Darren (14:35):
But I think that evolution in you, going from
atheist to Christian, is alsopart of the debate process
whereby you're willing to changeyour beliefs depending on
information that's given to you.
Oh yeah, right, whereas, like,most people are entrenched in
their beliefs but they don'tknow why they're doing what
they're doing.
Like this is like the NPCargument, right, people are, you

(14:57):
know, level six soil dynamicsis stuck in the system, but they
don't know why they believe it.
So I have people that are like,used to be close to me that,
would you know, die on the swordfor what they believe in.
This could be.
It could be religion, it couldbe just society, it could be how
you should approach a job, howyou should approach your life,
how you should approacheverything, but they don't have

(15:17):
a reason why they actuallybelieve it.
Right.
So I would prefer to not haveany belief, right, in terms of
being like, I don't, I'm nottied to a certain belief system,
purely due to a lack ofinformation, and that lack of
information.
Taking responsibility is myresponsibility, you know if I
become more educated on X, y, z,but I think it's to the point

(15:38):
earlier which you mentioned,that you know, do I really
believe in what I believe or amI just fucking given it and like
why do I think something?
And this can be, but this canbe anything.
That's why this is really good,because, looking at something
like religion is so this isfragmented, right, and it's so
divisive, but that this is aroll-up example for fucking
everything negotiation speakingrelationships, pretty much

(16:01):
everything oh yeah, 100 man tobe able to like.

Jake (16:05):
I think that we have such a such a padding around us and
such a foundation around us ofof values that have been, that
have come from a christianworldview.
By the way, um, beforechristianity, this is a really
interesting thing to look into.
The world pre-christianity wasnot what what it is today in
terms of ethics and sexualmorality and the way we look at

(16:26):
individuals as valuable, etcetera.
But, yeah, can you explain howthat is?
Yeah, so there's a guy calledTom Holland who has a book
called Dominion and basicallyit's going through the history
of Christianity Just as oneexample.
I don't want to get this videodemonetized, but so, for example
, in the Roman empire right, theway that the Romans treated

(16:48):
their slaves was subhuman right,and they used to get little,
little babies and they used tolike cast them out if they had
any, any deficiencies.
Same with the Greeks, like wedidn't actually have the value
for the human being as as we donow, and then we also didn't
really have the idea of, like amonogamous marriage.
We didn't have the idea that menhad to have had to have sexual

(17:08):
temperance, which is another bigone as well.
So Christianity bought thataround, and guys like St Paul in
the Bible, for example um, they, they, uh, they.
They're responsible for theidea of male sexual temperance,
which is wild, because back inthe Roman empire and before that
, romans could treat theirslaves however they wanted and

(17:30):
they had the same word forurination and for ejaculation
and like they basically justtreated their slaves as just
like orifices for them to, youknow, get off on.
And then this all changed withwhen Christian morality,
morality and christian ethicscame around.
So it's a really interestinglook into the history of it.
But nowadays we have thataround us but we actually don't

(17:52):
really know the foundation ofthat.
We think that that's just theway to go, and it's super
interesting when you look at allof these sort of like left-wing
causes around the world.

Darren (18:01):
they're just throwbacks to christian ideas and just to
expand on that I say this toeveryone which is, if you look
at, like I said, as basic as theten commandments are in terms
of high level overarching themeswhether you believe in the
bible or christianity or not arethey not?
Is this just not how you shouldlive your life?
Yeah, just in general.
Yeah, right.

(18:21):
So like that's my kind ofargument, the whole thing, which
is, I can look at that assomeone who's not like a devoted
christian and just say I, Iwant to strive to hit all of
those things on a daily basisyeah I want to take care of my
wife, want to take care of, like, my family.
I want to push, like our nameforward.
I want to be respectful toothers, I want to help other
people.
Is that not like the theme ofthe host, right?

(18:44):
Yeah, and then if you were tolook at maybe like a different
religion, maybe there's adifferent angle or slant on it,
but I would say that maybe thosevalues are also what you should
also be doing every day.
So I know that's a very basicview on this, but maybe the
basic view can be right.

Jake (18:59):
Well, the basic view is is like, sometimes you don't have
to intellectualize these thingsso much.
Sometimes we can look at itfrom the basic view and just
start from the first principles,which is exactly what you just
did.
You just look at it from a butthat's an intelligent thing to
do.
You look at it from firstprinciples.
What do we believe?
Why do we believe that weshould be good to people, et
cetera?
Well, I believe that becauseI'll have a thriving life, the

(19:25):
people around me will be happy,et cetera.
However, you look throughhistory, and history has been
basically a series of warringtribes fighting for resources.
That's what.
That's what history is, and itstill is.
That, of course, today, right,but, um, you know, these days we
have like uh, I'm not making anargument for, like the UN or
for any of these sorts of things, things, but these days we

(19:46):
generally have, you know, rulesof war and we have rules of
engagement, etc.
The treaties.
Yeah, exactly so, we have somesort of like civility about it,
but history has.
If you look at the babyloniansand the assyrians and the
ottoman empire and all thesethings, it's just warring tribes
.
The mongols, for example, justruthless, ruthless killers.
The Aztecs and the Mayans, asmuch as people think that

(20:09):
they're sort of like, you know,hippies who just sort of sit
around and drink ayahuasca,they're actually pretty freaking
brutal dude, like Aztecs werecutting out people's hearts and
sacrificing them to sun gods,etc.
But this is a really keydifference and, like whether
you're a Christian or not, not,I think it's just interesting to
look into the history of this,because before, like um, before

(20:32):
like christianity, uh, therewere the.
The religions around the worldwere basically all terrified of
demons, right.
So they were all doing thesethings to constantly appease
these sun gods and these demonicsort of entities Aztecs, for
example, sacrificing virgins,sacrificing children, et cetera,

(20:52):
like the Nordic and the pagans,et cetera.
Lots of like very demonic stuff.
But then the central idea ofChristianity whether you look at
it as an idea or a reality isthat God incarnated came down in
human form and he suffered anddied for humanity so that he
could actually defeat evil anddefeat death and these ideas,
right.

(21:12):
So it's just a differenttheology.
But from what I was sayingbefore about the left-wing
causes, for example, you look atthe Me Too movement, right.
What the Me Too movement is andit's kind of ironic is the Me
Too movement is a call for malesexual temperance.
That's something that didn'texist pre-Christianity, right?
Men, basically, were able totake slaves if they were wealthy

(21:34):
enough and there was no taboowhatsoever on them doing
whatever they wanted to thoseslaves, to those female slaves,
right.
Christianity came around and itsaid no, men have to control
their sexual temperances.
It's unacceptable for you totreat women as sexual objects,
right, and you have to treatwomen with love and respect and
dignity.
That was radical.
That was a radical idea in theRoman Empire.

(21:55):
You could tell men what theycould do with their slaves,
right.

Darren (21:58):
So how was that introduced into the Roman Empire
?

Jake (22:00):
So the Apostle Paul.
He wrote about this in hisdifferent letters and the ideas
of what it should mean for howmen should go about their
relationships.
And then, slowly, after thedeath of Jesus, the apostles
went around sort of like whatwould be now, like Palestine and

(22:22):
the Middle East, and aroundthrough parts of Europe and
Greece, et cetera, turkey, andthey spread this message slowly
and they were all put to theirdeaths for this.
They were all eventuallyexecuted in brutal ways for this
, and then the Christians wereseen as these, like really rebel
tribes, and then, like theRoman Empire, roman Emperor Nero

(22:42):
persecuted the Christians.
He used to put them in theColosseum and have lions kill
them and they were severely,severely persecuted.
But then it slowly, um, slowly,built up to the to then when
constantine, the emperor of rome, became christian and
christianity actually took overthe roman empire.
So but yeah, the me too thing.
It's really interesting becauseit's a call for male sexual

(23:03):
ethics.
Right, it's kind of a Christianidea, it's so interesting, but
they mock it.
It's really interesting.
It's this paradox that'shappening, where they will
actually mock like the ideas ofChristianity and conservatism
and conservative sexual ethics.
They will protest by going andgetting their tits out in the
street and you know like doingall these things.

(23:23):
And they've got've got theHandmaid's Tale.
You know the Handmaid's Tale.
It's this book and this sort ofseries where it's basically
speaking about Puritanism, wherethese women are covered and
they're just used as sort ofreproductive machines and the
men are all whatever.
So they've got all thesedifferent ways of mocking

(23:46):
conservatism and mockingChristian and traditional values
, but what they're doing is acallback to reinculcate
Christian values of sexualtemperance amongst men.
So it's interesting just theway that those dynamics work.

Darren (24:01):
That's super, super interesting.
How do you so when you'redebating, when you're speaking
to someone, when you'recommunicating with anyone, right
, people will say, especially insales, you can't change
someone's beliefs.
How do you do that in debate?
Yeah.

Jake (24:17):
Okay, well, I actually don't normally try and change
somebody's belief in a debate.
My idea is not to change thebelief of the person that I'm
sitting across from, becausenormally they're going to have
their feet dug in about it, butthe idea is to try and influence
the people who listen to thedebate.
So there are going to be lotsof people who are listening to
it, many people who areundecided and like.

(24:37):
I like to think of myself inthis regard, because this is how
I came to sort of believe.
What I believe is that I listento very compelling speakers and
I listen to very compellingdebaters and I like to just
think about it from a logicalstandpoint of like, how, who's
making the best argument here?
And if I look into the claimsand if I do, what is this great
line with um?

(24:58):
A guy called matt taibi, ajournalist, said, and he goes
let the facts be the boss.
Right, so you're not the boss,the facts are the boss and you
follow the facts where the factsare going to go.
So if you look at an argumentand you let the facts be the
boss and you let the logic bethe boss and you follow it where
it will lead you and you tryand be as objective as possible
which is almost impossible, bythe way then you can stumble

(25:20):
your way along a road laden byobstacles to something arriving
at like a truth claim.

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influence in your industry.
So check that out right downbelow.
Okay, let's look at that.
So, if you were following thestats, it's funny because

(26:08):
Elisa's father worked in medicaldevice sales like true as in
sales, true as 20s and 30s andhe would tell me stories about
how pharmaceutical companieswould basically run these
studies that were self-funded bythem, that were total bullshit,
that would prove like sugar'shealthy, smoking's healthy, all

(26:30):
this kind of stuff.
It's like getting the studentsto mark their own work exactly
right and again, they're onlyfunding stuff which they know
they'll have a positive returnon right.
So, and that's why he likewhenever we speak we always
speak openly about this he wouldjust say, like he doesn't, he
doesn't believe like supplementsas a result, because, like
whoever's providing us he'll.
I know obviously things canchange right, but for the most

(26:52):
part, the things that wereintroduced in the 80s and 90s
and early 2000s he was the oneselling them and he was like,
straight up, like a lot of it'sbullshit.
Now, with that as a framework,can people have facts that are
just not well taught outproperly, not well examined
properly, and then bring theminto a debate?

(27:12):
Like I think I watched one notwell examined properly and then
bring them into a debate?
Like I think I watched one ofyour episodes recently and I
think it was Destiny, talkingabout like X amount of percent
of people from, like, foreignnationals should be working in
the US for this reason.
But you had like a statistic,right.
What I'm trying to say is likecan these statistics be muddled
in?
Just bullshit?

Jake (27:33):
Yeah, in just bullshit.
Yeah, contrived is the wordyou're looking for with
contrived statistics, whichmeans that they're intentionally
um, they're taken, and thenthey're intentionally flipped
and scripted in a way to try andmake somebody's point.
But it doesn't necessarily meanit's a.
That's the reality of it.
It means that they've they'vedeveloped that narrative
themselves yeah, and I thinkthis can work either.

Darren (27:50):
It can work in a non-malicious way too.
I'll give you some example.
In our marketing, we say thatover 86% of people that are warm
traffic turn into customers.
Therefore, you should develop acontent system that gets people
warm prospects for you.
That's one it's also true, butthen we're doing it in a way so
that people start working withus.
So I didn't say about the otherpercentage right, so we use a

(28:14):
positive data point for ourbenefit.
Now, that could be right orwrong, ethically or morally, but
everyone does it.
So I'm trying to say, like, howdo we draw the line here?
Because if you just follow thenumbers, that number is correct,
but it's used in a way tobenefit us financially.

Jake (28:30):
It depends on how you use the number right.
So, for example, if you'rearguing, say, for immigration,
which is a very common debate inthe United States, something
that people will do is they'llbring a stat to the debate which
might throw off the otherperson.
Or they'll say, whereimmigrants are way less likely
to commit crimes than naturalborn Americans.
And so the audience is thinking, oh shit, immigrants are way

(28:53):
less likely to commit crimes andmaybe we should have more of
them, because you know, naturalborn Americans commit more crime
.
Maybe we should have less ofthem.
But the way that that statistichas been contrived is that
they're not looking at it percapita, they're just looking at
it in general.
So obviously there's 330million Americans, and then
there's maybe, like you know.
So obviously there's 330million Americans, and then

(29:16):
there's maybe like 10, 20million immigrants or something
like that, or like 10 millionillegal immigrants.
There's so many more Americans.
Obviously they're going tocommit more crimes than the 10
million, but if you look at itper capita, the illegal
immigrants is way, way higher.
So that's a contrived statisticthat is used dishonestly.
But if you've got a realstatistic about, for example,
sales leads and that that'ssomething that's borne out by

(29:37):
reality that if you can turnwarm leads into clients, then
you're just using a positivedata.
Point.
That is a fact, so I don't seeanything wrong with that.

Darren (29:47):
Okay, this is super interesting.
Okay, so what advice would youhave for people that are trying
to put together an argument, adebate, Like how do you go from
ground zero with this right?
Because I think people don'trealize that maybe a lot of
their conversations could bedebates.
Right, there's also that sideof it too, but you've drawn a
straight line between the two.

Jake (30:05):
Yeah, I would say the best thing that people can do is try
and understand that there istruth in the world, right that
we're not, like I said before,we are going to stumble our way
to that.
Then maybe by the time I'm 80years old I might be wise enough
to be able to actually observesome sort of objective truth in
the world and have a reallysolid worldview.

(30:26):
I know that my worldview at themoment would be completely
flawed If I debated someone whowas really proficient in another
way.
Then I could have my mindchanged.
At the moment, I think that Ihave observed a lot of first
principles that are true, but alot of time people get caught up
in this really bad trap ofthinking my truth, your truth.
Well, that's my truth and that'stheir truth and there is no

(30:47):
truth.
It's just sort of like everyonegoes about life in their own
different way and there's noright or wrong way to go about
it.
That's just factually incorrect.
There are right and wrong waysto go about life and I think
that we can all observe thisright.
So I really don't want to getthis podcast demonetized, but
I'm going to try and explainthis in the least most graphic

(31:07):
way possible.
But it's a really strongargument, right.
So there's a tribe in Papua NewGuinea, right, really strong
arguments.
Right?
So there's a tribe in Papua NewGuinea, right, and we'll call
them the semen semen warriors.
Right?
So what they do is they willtake the young boys away from
their mothers at seven or eightyears old and they will have
them ingest the semen of thesewarriors because they believe

(31:30):
this is what they believe.
This is a 100% factual thingthat happens in this culture
that if they do that, then theyoung boy will become a warrior.
So they will have to swallowthat and then it makes them
become a warrior.
So I think that we can all lookat that and we can think that's
wrong.
You don't want little kidshaving to do that.
There is no scientific basisfor that being a reality and

(31:53):
that's extremely damaging.
But the problem is that this isa deeply embedded culture, so
the little kids believe this aswell.
They believe that this is howthey become a good warrior,
right?
The problem, if you have thismoral relative because that's
what it is, moral relativism isthat everything is just relative
and morals aren't objectivelytrue and everyone can just live
life in a different way.

(32:13):
If you take that moralrelativist standpoint, then you
actually don't have ajustification for why what
they're doing is wrong.
Right, I think we can all kindof ensure that that is just
wrong.
You can't have a societystructured like that because
it's extremely damaging.
So I think you can sort of workfrom the ground up and you can
realize, all right, there arereally super wrong ways to go

(32:47):
about it.
For example, sexualizing kidsand having these sorts of
practices with children.
That's wrong.
Like them having parents wholove them Right would look like
them having good socialization,good social skills, their right
would look like them havingfriends and then eventually
becoming an adult human beingthat's well socialized and that
can have positive relationshipswith men and women Not men and
women, but depending on what sexthey are but they can have

(33:09):
positive relationships withtheir husbands and wives one day
, that they will be good parentsthemselves and then they will
extrapolate the good into theworld, right?
I think that we can all kind ofagree that those things are
really necessary.
So I'd say one of the reallyimportant things is to avoid
moral relativism, right, and tounderstand that there are better

(33:32):
and worse ways to go aboutthings.
And the whole my truth, yourtruth thing is just it's it's
it's logically incoherent well,I guess that's why like
transgender debate is so likedebated right.

Darren (33:45):
It's because people will look at it from a moral lens.
Would you?
Would you agree with that, orwould you say that?
Yeah, it's definitely a morallike is that the reason, one of
the reasons why?
Because it's like it's notabout logic.
Well, that's not a logic.
They're not looking at a truelogic, but they're saying
morally like you can do what youwant, versus no, you shouldn't
do that for that reason orwhatever, would you?

(34:05):
Is that a fair assumption,absolutely?

Jake (34:06):
absolutely totally right, like it's definitely a moral
argument, right, becauseoftentimes the the arguments
coming from those people will bethat you will make them feel
sad and these people are reallymuch more likely to self-harm
and to self-delete and all thesesorts of things.
So if you don't affirm whatthey're saying, then basically

(34:28):
you've got blood on your hands.
That's an emotional argument,that's an appeal to emotion.
That's a logical fallacy, right?
So when you look at thechessboard the logic chessboard
that I was saying before that isgrabbing your castle and moving
diagonal you cannot do that.
That's an appeal to emotion.
There has to be a logicaljustification.
It's also an assumption, though.
Yeah, it is, it is also anassumption.

Darren (34:59):
Because, like, if, if you just said, oh, I don't think
that's a good idea for, let'ssay, the people that they
influence, let's say that, thekids that come through as a
result, five or 10 years timeyou might be just looking at it
through that lens.
And then if someone is saying,well, now you have blood on your
hands, x, y, z, that's like adownstream assumption, bias from
something that you may not bethinking at all, which is why I
think this is actuallyinteresting in general to
observe, which is why I thinkthis is actually interesting in
general to subserve, becauseit's kind of like, when someone
says I'm an atheist, someonewill say well, therefore, you

(35:20):
must believe this, this, this,this, this is true to believe
that If you believe this, thenall of these series of
sub-effects is true, yeah, whichI guess isn't true of the world
, though.
Right.

Jake (35:32):
Yeah, well, I mean, with this whole gender debate, you're
completely right that it's anassumption and you're right to
assume that because actually thestats don't actually bear that
out.
When you look at the rates ofself-harm, people who actually
do that transition surgery aremuch, much more likely to
self-harm afterwards, right.
So the logic of that wouldpoint to that these people need

(35:54):
something else.
These people don't need to havetheir.
It's tormenting them and it'stroubling and you want the best
for these people, but maybethat's not the way.
Maybe the way isn't for just afirm.
Maybe they need some other help.
There's also very strongcorrelations between childhood
abuse and that sort of thing.
There's also very strongcorrelations between childhood

(36:15):
abuse and that sort of thing.
There's also very strong relatestrong correlation between
autism and young kids who wantto transition right just double
tap on that.

Darren (36:22):
How?
How did you come to that?

Jake (36:26):
like data point, just just through, like looking at the
studies done of of these kidswho are, like, identifying as
trans or whatever.
Many of them are autistic, andmany of them have, and
especially the adults who do it.
Many of them have sufferedserious abuse earlier in life,
and so these people, a lot ofthe time, they need real love.
They don't need to be put undera knife, they need real love,

(36:49):
and so, like, what I mean byreal love, though, best way I've
ever heard love defined is towill the good of the other, to
truly and sincerely will thegood of the other.
So this is where it's in thedebate.
In the debate sphere, it canget very nasty and it can get
very cutthroat.
If you want to have a cleanheart about the way you go about

(37:26):
these sorts of things, you haveto look at it through like, how
are you trying to will the goodof that person?
Are you coming at it through aloving lens or are you coming at
it through a lens of?
I need to be really sensitiveabout this, because we do need
to be really sensitive aboutthis.
This is people who aresuffering and people who are
having a serious identity crisis, but then the argument is well,
what do we do about that?
The prescription, yeah, what'sthe prescription Exactly?
Right, their prescription is wejust affirm, affirm, affirm.

(37:48):
If a five-year-old kid comes tome and he says and they say
daddy, I feel like I'm a girl,five-year-old kid comes to me
and he says and they say daddy,I feel like I'm a girl, you say
no, billy, you're not a girl,you're a little boy and this is
what little boys do and this iswhat little girls do.
Because you're a parent, youhave that responsibility, et
cetera.
Right, if an adult comes to youand they say to you you know,
jake, I feel like I'm a girl,I'm not going to just sit there

(38:11):
and be like I'm so glad you toldme that you're a girl.
Right, I'm going to explorethat and I'm going to see, try
and understand why they feelthat way, what it is exactly
that's led them to that place inlife, and to try and actually
will the good of that person andsee, like, what the good looks
like for them, if that makessense 100%.

Darren (38:30):
It's about solving, like , the symptoms versus the
underlying problem.
Yeah, right, and again notsaying that these people have a
problem.
It's just that what?
What is the event that hascaused this symptom?
Sorry, which is like the wholething with medicine, the whole
thing with doctors.
Is like if I come to you and Isay I'm super fucking sad you
don't put me on ssrs, youunderstand what the problem is

(38:52):
and it's precisely, and thenit's like, oh okay, maybe at a
deeper level there's a hormoneimbalance, maybe there's
something else, right, but it'slike we don't just fix this
symptom and move on.
Like I grew up in ireland where,you know, alcoholism is so bad,
prescription drugs so bad andso funny, because prescription
drugs are so bad that it's noteven highlighted, like no one

(39:13):
even knows.
Because it's so common to likepop painkillers, take x, takes y
, it's so common that it's noteven raised.
I think I'm like the onlyperson who talks about it, to be
honest, because it's so common.
Like america, like you know,this is like a thing that people
know in america, yeah, whereasit's just not a thing in uk and
ireland.
And the reason I'm saying thatis because if you're stressed,
you have a drink if you'recommiseration, congratulations,

(39:36):
every sort of emotion where, themore that I've taken a step out
of number one, like that world,and then two, those factors
I've just seen it for what it isand I'm like, oh okay, if you
are super down and your wifehates you and so on and so forth
, maybe there's like four othermini things we can fix versus
jumping to conclusions, you know, oh yeah, absolutely.

Jake (39:59):
I actually think that this is a product of the
feminization of our culture, ifI'm honest, and this is a
different sort of wormhole.
But when you look at the ideaof masculine, feminine and the
way that we deal with thingsgenerally, men will be more
solution-oriented.
If I'm really sad and I say toyou Darren man, can we go for
lunch?
I'm really down, this sort ofthing happened.
We're going to go for lunch andI'm not going to sit there

(40:21):
sobbing to you.
We're going to have asolutions-based conversation.
This happened, man, I knowyou're a really pragmatic guy,
can you help me to solve thisissue?
And we're going to have asolutions-based conversation
where we can really get to thebottom of it.
But women don't really tend tooperate that that way.
In that same sense, womengenerally tend to operate on
like the feeling of it and theywant to sit there and cry and

(40:42):
they want to feel that emotion,that emotional release, etc.
So they're much more sort oflike tuned into the actual
feeling as opposed to the factsof the matter.

Darren (40:51):
So whenever Elise is upset, I always like she told me
to tell her this, which is likedo you want support or do you
want like to talk about thesolution?
Smart man, and she will neverask for the solution Exactly.
She will find the solution init over time, but she just wants
support, I want to go ahead.
Yeah, like let's sit here for25 minutes.

(41:12):
Obviously I'm thinking of thesolution, but this is super
interesting.
Have you ever written NeverSplit the Difference with Chris
Voss?
Yeah.
I've written it.
It talks about, like thebehavioral change.
The reason why people who get atriple bypass don't change their
lifestyle is because they nevertaught, they never took the
change, took ownership of thedecision.
So therefore they go backeating McDonald's and they die

(41:32):
two years later.
It's 90% of people that get atriple bypass never make a
lifestyle change because theynever took ownership of it.
So, looking through that lens,if Elise is upset and I can
point out the problem, there'sno point me pointing out the
problem because you know, withall due respect, she won't make
the short term and over the longterm she wants to take

(41:53):
ownership of her own decisionyeah and then she'll make the
change, and that's obviouslydifficult, which took us fucking
five years to build up to thatpoint.
In the beginning, when I wasyounger, I'd be like just work
harder, yeah, no, and it doesn't, it just depends on the
individual.

Jake (42:05):
Well, it's so interesting when you actually look at these
dynamics, because women want,when they have a problem, they
want to be heard.
They want you to sit there andthey want you to listen to them
and they want to feel likethey've been heard, et cetera.
100% men.
We want to have thatsolutions-based conversation.
I'll probably go for a walkwith you.
I don't have to look at you inthe eye if I'm sad or upset and
we can look other ways and wecan talk about solutions.
You know what I mean.

(42:26):
So that's just the way that wego about things really
differently.
We go about things reallydifferently.
Look at the Tate phenomenon.
This is such an interestingcase study of this right.
Why the hell are there millionsand millions of young men, tens
of millions, probably hundredsof millions of young men around
the world, and even guys intheir middle age?
I've met a lot of guys in theirmiddle age and everything who
love Andrew Tate, because theywould never admit it, by the way

(42:48):
.
But why the hell are men soattracted to this message of get
your fat ass out of bed, getinto the gym, work harder.
You are a piece of shit, youwill be nothing.
Your legacy is going to dieLike your ancestors were
fighting saber-toothed tigers.
And now you're here saying howyou don't want to go for a run

(43:10):
because you're feeling a bit sad.
It's brutal, like the advicethat he gives you is so brutal
and so between the eyes.
Why do men respond so that sowell to that?
Women despise that sort ofmessaging right.
Completely different.
You look at the messaging thatwomen get from their icons and
idols.
It looks nothing like that, andwomen are actually 80% of the

(43:33):
consumer market in the world.
So when you look at the waythat things are advertised, it's
generally advertised towardsthe female right and it's not
really advertised in a verymale-centric way because women
make consumer decisions right.
So I just think that the casestudy of Andrew Tate is just
such an interesting one with howmen and women are receptive to

(43:53):
the information unless, like, Ijump in on that as well, because
I would say that with his angle, it's the shortest path to
solving your problem right.

Darren (44:03):
So, instead of like talking about it and going
around the corner and, yeah,maybe do this, maybe do this,
he's like just go out, solve themoney problem, get fit, because
Because at an overarching team,it's basically just take
ownership of your life.
It's just, bro, it's likeGoggins, it's like fucking
everyone.
Take ownership of your life.
The shortest path is likecontrol the money element
initially, just so that you canget yourself out of bad
situations, get yourself incheck, be disciplined, and

(44:26):
that's kind of it.
At said some random shit fromnow on in, right, but for the
most part, it's that.
He's also been very influentialon me, by the way.
I had a background in finance,bro.
I was going through it, I waslike humdrum, just like you know
, just going through life, andhe just put that light on my ass
.
It was great and actually,funnily enough, a lot of the

(44:47):
things he had said had actuallybecame true.
So I actually became true.
So, um, I had like huge issues,uh like financially with our
family, and uh like theyactually all became true, and it
was only me in the positionthat I was in, that I was able
to make decisions for everyonebased on a financial situation I

(45:07):
was in with help of that atanother point.
It was very interesting.
The reason why I say this isbecause I think men, especially
if you just speak the shortestpath to the solution, it works
like extremely well, and Iactually find this very true
even in business.
I'll give you an example.
I think I said this the otherday and I said this to one of my
friends as well, who's afucking killer, and he said A

(45:28):
lot of times in their messaging,people talk around the corner.
Let me give an example.
If I tell you you should starta podcast because you could
build authority and you couldbecome an influential figure, it
has this sub benefit of you'llbe able to take care of your
primal needs of money andsecurity, whereas, which we do
right now if I tell you youshould make content to make more
money, you'll respond betterand obviously there's a bigger

(45:52):
claim, there's a bigger promise.
Whatever, providing you candeliver, you'll actually get
more results effectively.
So I've said this to someoneyesterday who's a huge name bear
in mind making a lot of money,but probably should be making a
lot more.
And I just said look, insteadof talking about the problem,
just fucking go direct, make ita four, four word sentence and I
guarantee you it will transformeverything.

(46:14):
And in some regard I have somewomen do who actually respect
that more and then also havekind of more bought into it as
well.
I don't get your thoughts onthat yeah, yeah, 100.

Jake (46:24):
I think that the leadership style is also very
important as well, because thedirectness like if you saw the
way that, like you'd be wellaware of this, but the way that
me and vinnie communicate witheach other, for example, like a
lot of women would look at thatand be like gobsmacked by that
I'll take him back a little bitintimidated exactly, and I've
had women like you speak to yourbrother like that and I'm like,
yeah, like he speaks to me likethat too, you know.

(46:46):
But also what I've found I'velearned a lot, uh, off vinnie.
A lot of this actually is thatis also leadership by example,
and leadership of like doing thething and then having that
reflect in your own character sothat other people see that you
got to do it for yourself, notanybody else, exactly right.
So I'm very like boom, boom,boom, say what needs to be done

(47:06):
straight between the eyes, cutthroat, whereas Vinny has a very
different style about him,where he will do the thing and
then he will say, oh man, thisis working so well for me.
Like I was getting fat lastyear, for example, and Vinny
started like a bulk and he waslike, started eating really well
and started taking care ofhimself.
He's like, oh man, this is,like you know, going so well for
me and I'm doing all this.
And I knew, I know hiscommunication style, so I knew

(47:28):
what he was doing and that hewas without saying to me Jake,
you're getting fat, you need togo to the gym.
He was saying man, look whatI'm doing.
Boom, boom, boom.
And then I found that to be areally interesting thing as well
, because it's not reallysomething that I'd incorporated
which is that more longerstrategy of doing the thing,
embodying it and then reflectingthat on other people.

Darren (47:45):
It's not metaphysical though, right, yeah, because
it's not the surface leveldirectness, exactly.
It's funny because with us andour clients specifically, you'll
find us very interesting.
So, similar to you, I'm likevery direct, right, which has
probably been to the detrimentof me for some people that want
a more of an emotional responseand some guys want a most

(48:06):
response to it, which I, whichwas kind of a bit alarming to me
, not gonna lie.
So in our media company, Ipulled myself out of client
success for the most partbecause I found that I wasn't
the best communicator ofproblems.
So if I'm speaking to a clientand I had an instance yesterday
which was like we need to do X,y, z for this to be successful,

(48:27):
and it wasn't done and we askedto take ownership and they
didn't want us to do it and thenit was still not done on their
side.
And I woke up this morning and Iwas like what the fuck is going
on?
So I said it direct, being likelook, here's the cause and
effect and you know the problemsolution.
Here's a problem, here's asolution, here's my
recommendations.
And then I had to speak to Tom,our client success manager, and

(48:47):
I was like, hey, dude, you gotto come in and do this on more
of an emotional level Becauseit's the Vinny scenario, right,
that's the way he wouldcommunicate.
It's not my best way tocommunicate.
I'm learning that skill, butit's like until I have that
skill ironed out, I can justhave someone be better than me
at that problem.

Jake (49:04):
Yeah, dude, you and I are very similar, like that, and
you've got to realize yourshortcomings, like that.

Darren (49:13):
Dude, this costs us money.
Yeah, it's because, like I findwith someone who's more
masculine like myself in termsof like, confrontational or
disagreeable is a very good wayto put it that even if they
agree, they haven't takenownership of the decision, so
their natural response will beto disagree, even though they
know that's the right thing todo.
It's fucked up, bro.
So if I'm like, because welet's?
I'll give an example.
We do something for theirpodcast, we recommend something,

(49:38):
they don't do it and, as aresult, they don't get the
result.
So we told you what to do, youdidn't do it and you didn't get
the result.
And now when I say, hey, thisis the way we should be doing
this, instead of them saying,okay, yeah, sure, let's go.
They disagree and they fightback.
So that's why you need someonewho's much more emotive to be
able to come in and get thatdone.

(49:58):
The majority of my guests runcontent businesses.
They've used content as themain element of their business
to drive more revenue and buildtheir influence online.
We've been doing this through apodcast for many years.
We have many guests, clientsand even customers use a podcast
as their main source of drivingmore revenue for their business
and building their influenceonline, and we're offering a

(50:19):
handful of spots to book in acall with our team to learn how
you yes, you can leverage apodcast to generate more revenue
for your business and driveyour influence online.
Many of our clients andcustomers start from nothing,
but each one of them are actiontakers and they want to learn
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So if you want to learn moreand you're really interested in

(50:41):
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Jake (50:58):
Somebody who reads people really well and somebody who's
actually able to sort of be likewater when it comes to this.
They can just float around andsort of be malleable in the way
that different because, like, Ilove it when people yeah,
exactly, I love it when peopleare like me.
When they say to me Jake, yes,no, or Jake jake, boom, boom,
and I respond really well, Ifeed off that.
But my biggest challenge isthen trying to observe the way
that people operate and whatmakes them tick and trying to

(51:20):
like be like water and bemalleable around that and get
the best results out of peopleand get the best outcomes out of
people purely based on the waythat they operate, because not
everybody likes feedback betweenthe eyes.
Do you know what I mean?

Darren (51:34):
that's such a good point , dude, and I think the reason
why is because a lot of guys cansay the same things I want x, I
want to lose body fat, I wantto lose weight, I want to make
more money but then theirexecution of it is different.
And then when you have, like,the blueprint, or when you have
the process, or when, when youcan show us in a logical debate,
it goes back to the ownershipof it.

(51:58):
For some fucking reason, theywon't do it.

Jake (52:00):
You know, I can imagine this with podcasts as well.
I've got a rule now, right,where because obviously I've
started a very successfulpodcast or a very successful
like online media company oryoutube channel I've had a lot
of people that have come to meand said dude, I want to start
this YouTube channel, I want tostart a podcast, et cetera.
And I'm like, first of all, ifit was that easy, everyone would

(52:20):
be doing it.
I don't say that, but I'm likeI've got a rule now where I will
say to them that's cool, man, Iwill give you a little bit of
advice, you start it and onceyou've done 10 episodes, come
back to me and then I'll helpyou and I'll invest in you.
Or, like, I'll give you myproper time.
Because too many times I've hadpeople come to me and say, man,
I've got this idea, I want tostart a podcast.
And I'm like, all right, sweet,let's jump on a call and I'll

(52:41):
mentor you through it, and thatcost me my time, right.
And then they will just have azero follow through and then,
like, a month will go by, I'llsee nothing, two months will go
by, I'll see nothing.
And for me that's bemusing,because if I say I'm going to do
something and if I go seekmentorship, I'm going to at
least do it because I don't wantto lose respect, you know,
because my word is important,but so many times I had this

(53:03):
happen.
Then I had one friend I'll givehim a shout out His name's Darcy
and he cooks steaks and he'scalled the steak lad on um on on
Instagram.
And I know this guy.
He's a savage.
We used to do all this trainingtogether and he used to do
boxing and when he's one ofthose guys who's obsessive.
So I saw that personality traitand I was like he's going to go
far with this.
So I invested in him, in him alittle bit.

(53:24):
I gave him some advice andeverything, and then um I, and
then I sort of tape it off alittle bit.
He goes ahead.
He's done way more episodesthan me on my podcast now,
killing it, getting invited onother podcasts.
But I'm telling you I amfucking brutal with this guy,
with my advice to him.
Like I I feel bad for sharingthis story, but he won't mind.

(53:45):
He had an OnlyFans girl on thepodcast, right, and um I, and
the stories that he was tellingand that she was telling there
were not exactly the story thatyou, as somebody who likes you
know a little bit of Aussiebanter and eating steak.
They're not exactly the storiesthat you want to be hearing
about.
It's how some OnlyFans girl islike is like loving herself or
whatever.
And so I messaged him and I waslike messaged him a bunch of

(54:09):
her recent photos from like hertwitter and everything.
I was like what's the logic ofhaving this chick on the podcast
so sure?
And because he was gettingratioed in his comments and I
was like that's really bad whatdoes that?
mean.
So he was getting um peoplecommenting on the clips that he
was putting out of his hairsaying what the fuck has this
got to do of people just sayingwhat the fuck has this got to do
with steak or what the fuck hasthis got to do with?

(54:30):
Um, you know, like whatever, oh, like, oh, just what I wanted
to see on my, on my feed onlyfans, girl, like whatever.
And they were getting heaps oflikes.
He would respond to it and getno likes.
That's when you're gettingratioed by the like to ratio
right.
So I messaged him and I waslike mate, you're getting
ratioed on your post here.
I was like what's the logicbehind having this chick?
And he was like oh, like.

(54:50):
I met her the other day and Ithought that she had an
interesting story and I was likefair enough, but be so careful
with your personal brand.
Be careful who you alignyourself with.
Be careful the stories thatyou're telling, because that
reflects on you.
I took one click on her profile.
I went to her Twitter and I hadher photos of her with like
jizz on her fucking feet andface and everything, and I was
sending him these photos.

Darren (55:09):
I was like now, this is aligned with your, with your
brand such a good boy reallyfucking careful, but I was just
so brutal with him and he tookit like an absolute champion,
yeah, so my observation of that,um is, what I do find is like
if you teach someone and they'rereceptive, you almost like
liberate them because it's uh,they've taken ownership.

(55:31):
And then they, they see you asthe vessel that's taught them
the skills and they are likeextremely grateful.
Whereas what I've found,especially in the agency side of
things, is that when we dothings for people, and
especially if they get success,they don't appreciate it because
they haven't felt the pain ofposting to zero.
And then if you do it and itdoesn't succeed, they also like

(55:53):
look down on it because theythink, well, it should be easy,
right, do you get me?
Yeah, so they don't understandlike all the microcosm skills of
like trailers.
I said to vinnie earlier I waslike bro, the trailers looking
fucking good, and I know thatthey're holding retention for 90
seconds because the trailersare so good they don't like
appreciate it because youhaven't given them the skill
right.
I think that's why coaching isactually a very interesting
space, because you can getinsane results for people and

(56:16):
then push.
You, push the right person hard, right, because like that's why
I said to you we have likewe've had one program for so
long and then we have anotherprogram because the guys are
getting so much results and theguys that are in the second
program, we're just mates, rightand bro, these people still pay
me, but we're still matesbecause of the fact that, you
know, I've met up with them andbeing like hey, like let's,
let's do this, like let'sfucking work a bit harder on
this, let's get this right, andthen they, they feel a good

(56:39):
affinity to me because, it's nobullshit.
Yeah, so again it's.
It's like the layers of humanknowledge, human awareness, yeah
, um, it's a very good point,though, man dude, me and vinnie
have literally grinded so hardthe last three years to get this
down.

Jake (56:54):
And we have these rules where we're like we cannot
falter on the one percents,because that's what separates us
from everybody else, and likewe're really harsh with
ourselves.
Whenever I like mess somethingup, and it's a small thing, I
instantly try and takeaccountability.
I'm like I fucked that up.
I'm really sorry, man, like Ishouldn't, I shouldn't I, I
shouldn't have been so lazy, Ishouldn't have been so careless,

(57:15):
I shouldn't have been this,that and the other.
And he does the same thing.
If he ever mess, even if it'ssomething really small, like
I'll be like um, for example.
Like um, vinnie, you forgot toput this thing in the bio yeah
and it's like we have a strugglesession about it.
We're like, yeah, why was thatthing not in the bio?

Darren (57:30):
I said it to my CEO as well.
Last week there was an issuewith like this is so fucking
dumb, but it's always a dumbissues.
It was like the guy put out aclip and then he put out another
clip and he thought it was thesame clip.
So he put the same caption onthe shorts and it showed up as
like two same captions, but theyclips.
And I was just like, bro, likethis is the difference.

(57:52):
Yeah, you know, this is thething.
Right is that we could begetting amazing results for this
guy for a year and a half, butif he sees this, he's like we're
dummies.
Yes, right, looksunprofessional.
It looks unprofessional.
And the same individual wasactually reviewed on my own
videos because he's I'm also aclient of him and there was like
a spelling mistake in my video.
Now, I didn't give a fuck aboutthe spelling mistake, I don't
give a shit.
I couldn't give a shit about it.

(58:13):
But he noticed it and he's aclient of ours.
He said it to us and it wentthrough two editors and a qa guy
and we still had a spellingmistake in it I don't care but
because he cares, we have tocare right, and it wasn't his
contact, it was my contact, yeah, so it's interesting, right, I
care a lot about that shift.

Jake (58:32):
There's a spelling mistake , of course Like, because if you
think about it, if you put outa clip, say, it gets 10,000
views and there's a spellingmistake, that's 10,000 people
who have the potential to lookat you as lesser now because
they're like, oh well, you can'teven spell the word Like you.

(58:56):
It is in philosophy and youcan't spell a word, right, like,
and that always reflects on you, even if I have nothing to do
with the making of the clip orwhatever.
That reflects on me.
100 and it reflects on ourbrand.
So like.
This is why we just take so muchcare about the one percents,
about all of the little things,because that is what makes the
difference.
Anybody can have a podcast andcan have a youtube channel, etc.
But if I, if I don't havevinnie there, fine tuning our
studio, fine tuning all of thesettings, all of the editing,

(59:16):
all of these sorts of things tomake it the highest production
quality possible, and if I'm notthere writing really quality
scripts and doing all thisresearch, if I lessen that, then
we become just another randomcommentary channel so let's go
through that right.

Darren (59:30):
So you're 800 000 subscribers, 880 or something,
now 820.
Basically, putting out likedaily videos.
How do you never skip a beatwith YouTube?
Keep the pacing and everything.
Because probably, in theory,one of the fastest growing
YouTube channels on YouTube, ifyou think about it two years to
nearly a million subscribers.

Jake (59:49):
I'd say, yeah, it'd be.
It'd be up there in the last,in the last few years, if you're
in the top 500 fastest growingchannels and I've got no idea
about the stats, but uh,probably if I was that would be
cool yeah, but um probably run achat gbt, I've done it
genuinely, but it's like twoyears to get to that point and
the level of use that you getand everything right.

Darren (01:00:09):
So let's go through the workflow right.
Daily, daily uploads, which isalready a fucking headache.
So this guy's under a lot ofpressure for editing a lot news
coming in of politics anddebates.
What's the workflow?

Jake (01:00:22):
so generally, what will happen is that I will try and be
on top of the news as much aspossible and everything that's
going on.
I'll be on twitter constantlylooking at what stories are
breaking, what people areinterested in, etc.
Et cetera.
And then I'll be on YouTubejust looking through debates,
because if there's not a debateto cover, then I have to do a
political story like a storythat's happening, and just go
through the story and try andadd as much value as possible,

(01:00:44):
because if it's just me theretalking and giving my like two
cents worth, that will notreally go so well.
But if I've got stats andfigures and then referring to
another expert, playing a clipfrom another expert more stats,
more figures, different angle,another expert, boom, boom, boom
, super dynamic video then thatmakes for valuable political
commentary.
And then with the debates, Ican cover it.

(01:01:04):
Wherever debates are relevant,or even if they're not so
relevant, I can cover them inthe way that I can break down
body language and I can breakdown persu language and I can
break down persuasion and I canteach people how they can
incorporate these sort oftechniques into their own lives
and into their own conversations, et cetera.
So I've got to look at it froma really broad range of skills.
So I spent a lot of my timedoing basically nothing right,

(01:01:28):
watching videos, right, all inthe metaphysical right.
This is all happening in theabstract, whereas vinny is very
practical, so he'll be there.
He's just learned.
He has this special ability tobe able to learn things and
master them really quickly, likethis almost genius ability to
do that.
Recently he had to learnphotoshop because we couldn't
rely on thumbnail people anymore.
I was like vinny, you're gonnahave to get in the trenches and

(01:01:51):
learn how to do this more.
He authored.
I didn't say that, but he saidhe's gonna learn how to do it.
Two days later we've got likebeautiful thumbnails happening
right.
So that's his skill practical,pragmatic, learns photoshop,
learns these things, masters,editing, masters um, the uh, the
, the clips, and has a guyworking under him doing that,
managing everything, all thepractical stuff, all the stuff

(01:02:13):
that actually happens in reality.
He does, whereas I'm always inthe clouds the abstract, the
metaphysical, thinking aboutideas and debates and watching
things, et cetera.
So normally in the morning I'llbe just watching, see what's
happening and then hopefully bymidday or so I'll have a really
good idea of what my script isgoing to be for that day, what
I'm going to be covering, etcetera, and then I'll write a

(01:02:36):
pretty detailed script and thenby like 3 pm I like to have
filmed and have done the scriptand I like to be and then
Vinny's sort of doing theediting of it.
And you know, by 5 or 6 pm,that's when I these days will
just go to the gym, do myworkout, do a bit of recovery
and everything, and then bringmy computer and maybe do a bit

(01:02:57):
of work there.
That's the flow at the moment.

Darren (01:03:02):
So, apart from the research, what else do you do
for the media company Like howdo you bring this to life?
Is it just the videos thatyou're focused on every day, do
you?
How do you bring this to life?
Is it just the videos thatyou're focused on every day?
Can?

Jake (01:03:13):
you show me the laser Because that's the thing I need,
a mover, right?
Well, the thing that I've gotto do is I've got to become as
proficient as possible withdebate.
Yeah.
Because that's the sort of stuffthat is really really
attractive to people is when youcan actually not only just talk
about it in a video, but thenideas and people really enjoy
watching those debates and alsoI host a lot of debates as well,
so I'll get different peoplefrom around and I'll host them,

(01:03:35):
but the idea is eventually toprobably move to America for a
few years and to have a studiosimilar to like Valuetainment
what they do have a daily show,news show, lots of live viewers
similar to Tim Pool and thesesorts of guys, and then to have
different factions of the mediacompany and have the people
around me so there's differentresearchers and everything so
that I can spend more time justactually broadcasting rather

(01:03:57):
than just writing scripts andlistening to videos, and I can
have people relaying informationto me and that I would have
spent these years researchingand developing and sharpening my
skills to the point where Idon't need to do all that
research anymore.
I've got a really goodfoundation of knowledge.
I can really cover a broadrange of topics and I can just
sort of keep up with the newsand just go for it that's

(01:04:18):
similar to podcasting, right,like when I was younger, I would
spend almost three dayspreparing for a podcast.

Darren (01:04:23):
so I'd be like looking at your stuff and just
understanding, like how youthink.
And then how do I write anoutline for that and sub
questions, dude, now I can do itin like an hour, like being
realistic, because the skill oflistening is what you first
acquire, and then it's the skillof the niche how do we tailor
it to what you're doing?
And then it's like how do westay on the ball and then just

(01:04:43):
memorize everything?
Right, just for the most partit becomes intuitive.
So there's like there's theyears that no one sees that
you've built that skill to beable to prepare in like an hour.

Jake (01:04:55):
That's it, man.
People think that success islike an overnight thing and the
acquisition of skills is anovernight thing.
Oh what, you just sit in frontof a camera and you just talk.
Oh, the easiest job ever.
But there's so much that goesinto it, so much.

Darren (01:05:09):
And it was Rick Rubin's podcast with Rory sutherland.
He was talking about likepreparation basically, and you
know, we from school we thinkthat preparation is like sit
down, write the script, learnthe script, and so on.
But preparation could bewashing the dishes, sleeping,
and then, as you're sleeping,like the subconscious is

(01:05:30):
thinking about the story arc ofwhat you're talking about.
Waking up, going to the gym,driving back, being in traffic
is preparation, and you mightnot even be thinking about it
consciously but subconsciously.
And then you go in and you'reprepared, yep, and like that's
how he wrote a lot of his music.
That's why he always washes hisdishes every day, because when
he's writing his dishes, he'swriting his dishes, he's
thinking of the notes and it'ssuch an interesting observation.

(01:05:52):
It's actually really beautifulto think about, right?

Jake (01:05:54):
Yeah.

Darren (01:05:54):
Because that was a big unlock for me and I listened to
that about a year ago which wasI don't need to be looking at
the same fucking A questionsover and over again.
I need to understand thedynamic and even like this
morning, I was like walking downthis morning and I was like
walking dog this morning.
I was like, okay, how do I wantthis conversation to go?
How do I make this flow?
What do I believe?

(01:06:15):
How does that make sense?

Jake (01:06:18):
and then it's like I'm kind of, for the most part,
always ready tell you what'sinteresting as well about
podcasting, and this issomething that, like you're
you're good at with podcastingis not trying to control the
narrative too much.
You want to be able to reallylisten and then to be able to
see where it takes you.
You know, like you probablywouldn't have expected that, I
would have blasted away straightaway with deep philosophical
ideas, and that's when you'veever like all right, cool, like

(01:06:40):
where's this going, where can Itake this, and not be like, well
, you know, my, my next questionwas this so we have to get into
this, you know, say I thinkthat's a lot.

Darren (01:06:47):
Right, that takes years to be like okay, this makes
sense through this lens, right,does that make sense Even for
videos?
And one of the things thatbecame very apparent to me with
that was I had a podcast withPaul Daly.
You know Paul Daly no, I get onreally well with him, a
Christian guy.
He was the CEO of Imangaji.
I know Paul very well and he wason the podcast again and he
kind of like ripped down likethe Christianity root of the

(01:07:10):
conversation and then about anhour and a half of conversation
he was like do you want me tostop talking about this?
And I was like I want you totalk about things that you
really value.
And the fact that you valuethis, even though I didn't think
about it, not going to liebefore the conversation means
that we'll have a very goodconversation, right?
I think I said to Vinnyyesterday it yesterday was like
what's the thing that you areitching to talk about?

(01:07:33):
But no one ever asks you, right, because I do so many podcasts,
dude, even myself.
So going as a question, it's abrilliant question like yeah
what lights you up that youvalue a lot?

Jake (01:07:44):
have you noticed that when you podcast with people, you
can see that moment where thatlike little flick switches?
That little switch flicks in away where you can see that it's
gone from sort of like a youknow podcast conversation to
almost like you forget thecameras around.
They're like okay, thisperson's in their zone, this
person is cooking yeah, it's agood, it's a good point.

Darren (01:08:00):
It's like what are they?
What are the same sevenquestions are always being asked
and how do I get out of thatframe as fast as possible?
So how do we get into like noman, no man's land, where it's
just like we're just flowing andwe're just conversing, we're
just talking?
It's still hitting anoverarching theme, because I
kind of I try to start thematicand then I go into titles and

(01:08:20):
then I will go into topics andthey always have to hit the
topic and title and theninterior thumbnails can be done
before the podcast.
Yeah, in theory, yeah, but thenbecause the conversation is
fluid and not seven fuckingminutes it has to all, not all,
it doesn't have to, but intheory will all come back up.
So I think, working with likeso many people they always worry
about this because they're like, oh, it's kind of off topic and

(01:08:41):
I'm like, no, overall we'll goback up.
You know, you'll watch alexramosian and chris williamson
podcast and the title will belike how to work harder and the
guy goes into his dad and hegoes into thousands of verticals
because the the gold is, as yousaid, it's the why, why, why,
why.
And then you're only scratchingthe surface of the gold.
And that's where I got out ofstudios was, because we had 90

(01:09:05):
minutes or an hour and then youonly got into conversation 40
minutes in, so I had to get outof it, um, and then I started
bringing my stuff with me, whichit's a good idea to do that,
but you can't do multiple cities.

Jake (01:09:19):
Yeah.

Darren (01:09:19):
You know you can't do multiple cities.

Jake (01:09:21):
It's hard lugging all that luggage around, you know.

Darren (01:09:23):
It's just a shit show.
And then, like today, I toldyou, like you know, the camera
like doesn't work.

Jake (01:09:33):
It's a brand work to brand new camera.
I'm like what the fuck ishappening, bro, if I didn't have
, if I didn't have vinny, I'd beabsolutely screwed.
That sort of stuff happens andI'm like vinny, nerd, I need
nerd help right now.

Darren (01:09:38):
Fix the fix the technical thing, yeah, yeah yeah
, but it's a good point though,right, because that's why I you
need.
You need good people in yourcorner who compliment you at all
times.
Right, compliment your skills.
I don't mean like bringing youup, I mean like the stuff that
you're shit at, whereas I thinkI think my skill is that I'm
kind of like okay at a bunch ofshit, like I'm happy to lug my
stuff to dubai, set it up, havethe camera set up, have the

(01:10:01):
video set up it's probably 70there, uh whereas I shouldn't be
doing that, right, um, and it'snot that I'm too proud to do it
, it's just sometimes I'm like,oh, fuck it, I'll just figure it
out.

Jake (01:10:11):
Yeah, yeah, I get that.
There's a lot of differentlogistics involved and we've had
to take our stuff around a fairbit.
And it is a pain, but I admireyou for doing that, bro.

Darren (01:10:20):
Tell me about why you think your channel grew Well.

Jake (01:10:26):
first of all, the main reason was because I was really
into this sort of stuff before.
I'm actually really into thisstuff.
It actually really fills my cup.

Darren (01:10:35):
That's an important point.
Yeah, right, that most peoplecreate content, but things they
don't give a shit about.
Yeah, yeah, I call it the 100reps, right, you have to do 100
videos of the same topic.

Jake (01:10:44):
Yeah, To be able to do it forever.
Exactly, if I was waking upevery morning and I had nothing
to do and I had no job and I wasa crypto billionaire, I would
wake up every morning and Iwould see what was happening in
the news and I would watch allof the debates and I would
critically analyze them in myhead.
That's what I would do, becauseI love doing that.
Awesome.
So now I do that anyway, andthen I do that for work.
So when I started this, I'lltake you back, man, because when

(01:11:09):
I started the channel, I wasgoing through a really, really
tough time in my life.
So I started the channel when Iwas 27, right, and I'd just
gone.
I was a personal trainer for afew years and I didn't mind
personal training.
It was like you had a bit ofautonomy and everything, but I
couldn't quite clock how to makethis work for me in my sleep.
You know and a lot of guysaround Bali here are quite good

(01:11:31):
at that they can sort of, youknow, they've put it online and
they do well with their training.
I hadn't got to that stage.
So it was okay.
It gave me some autonomy.
I didn't have to answer to aboss, but it was.
There wasn't very good money init at that stage and so
eventually I left that because Igot an opportunity to work
corporate, to go and dorecruitment and by this stage
I'd been doing podcasting forfive years.
I'd had the FightFit podcast,which was like all that

(01:11:54):
kickboxing and boxing et cetera.
I'd done about 60 episodes ofthat, I think, and that was.
I loved that, but I never tookit anywhere because we had a
GoPro that was set up down herelooking at our crotch and it was
just a terrible, terrible setup.
But that was a really enjoyablepodcast and I really liked that
.
And then I started anotherpodcast called Hello Game Day,

(01:12:16):
which is about Australianfootball, and I had better set
up.
This time.
I had a studio and we had someeditors and we had me and my
friend and the editors weredoing it for free because, like
they were young universitystudents and I managed to
wrangle this all together.
I had a friend who had anoffice who let us use one of the
little tiny rooms in the officeto for a studio space and we
set everything up and we used tointerview AFL football players

(01:12:36):
and we were like, oh wow, youknow, afl football players.
This is great, and me and Vinnywere looking at back on this
the other day actually and wewere laughing our heads off
about the terrible productionquality, about the terrible
sound quality, about theterrible thumbnails and all
these sorts of things, because Iwas just so green to it all.
So I did that for a while andthen eventually that sort of
petered out and then I startedsomething called Counterculture

(01:12:59):
News because I started to getmore involved in politics during
the Rona right.
So I started CountercultureNews and then I was doing all
this stuff on Instagram, workingreally hard, and I was doing a
few sort of like videos about ithere and there.
I was going to protests.
Vinny would come with me tothese protests and we would go
and interview climate changeactivists and debate them and
everything, and that was okaybut never went anywhere.

(01:13:21):
And then I got picked up fromthere with this guy, andy, who
did this thing called the GlobalFreedom Rally at that time,
where he was interviewing Zubyamongst other people back during
that time about all therestrictions and mandates and
everything and basicallyrallying people together to
fight back against this.
And he saw my counterculturenews channel and he got me on on

(01:13:41):
board and we started this jointventure where we'd do these
interviews.
That was the biggest thing I'dever done.
I was like, wow, you know I'mhere interviewing all these
doctors and scientists and thesepeople, and.
But that also petered outbecause those guys had their own
things going on.
So then, you know, by this stageI was pretty demoralized
because, like, I'd felt like I'dslowly progressed but I was

(01:14:02):
like, maybe I'm just not reallyso good at this.
So then I went into personaltraining and just focused on
that for a little while.
And then the corporate job cameabout.
And this is when I knew I wasreally demoralized because I
really wanted to do podcastingand media and journalism of some
sort, but I felt like I justcouldn't ever really get it off
the ground, right.
So, um, I went into thecorporate world and I did it for

(01:14:24):
six months and I hated everysecond of it.
I despised it, right.
So then, eventually, um, I hada little bit of a tiff with my
boss one day and then I quit thejob.
I'm 27 years old and I'm likemom, I'm unemployed.
I haven't lived at home since Iwas 15, by the way, and I was
like you know, I'm unemployed.
Um, can I come back and livewith you for a while and see

(01:14:48):
what?
See what I do?
I guess.
And she was like, yeah, cool,my mom's great.
She just was like, yep, comehome, do what you need to do.
So by this stage I'm like holyshit, like I'm 27 years old, I
am everything I feared that Iwould be.
I'm a total loser, living in mymom's spare room with no job
and no direction whatsoever, noidea what I wanted to do.

(01:15:10):
So I was 27 and it was justdevastating and I was.
I was like lashing out, like Iwas like emotional and angry and
like lashing at it, like thepeople around me who love me,
because I just felt like such aloser and being who I am, which
is like innovative and likeentrepreneurial and driven and
ambitious, it's like everythingI'd feared in my life was was

(01:15:32):
happening before my eyes, youknow, and a lot of my friends
around me were all kicking goalsand starting companies and
progressing in their careers andI was living with my mom.
So, anyways, that was a reallytough time for me.
So I actually started thisYouTube channel, right, and it
was Rattlesnake TV.
Vinny bless him, even thoughhe'd never made a cent off me

(01:15:53):
and he'd worked for all thesehundreds of hours doing my
random project, he was like,yeah, man cool, we'll, um, we'll
jump in and we'll do theserattlesnake tv videos, whatever
the hell that means, um.
And so we did a few videos inhis old house.
They got like no viewswhatsoever.
And then I was living in thesunny coast, he was in brisbane,
so I started making the videosby myself for a little while and
, um, one day I got really sickwhen I was at my mom's place.

(01:16:17):
I was almost like I was justlike worn down and I got really
sick.
And, um, my mom was like youknow, you should go to the
hospital, you look really sick.
And I was like no, I'm good,I'm good Whatever.
Next day she comes in and I canbarely move, can barely walk
Right, I'm just flattened,paralyzed.
I couldn't stand up anything.
And she's like no, you're goingto the hospital.
And I was like mom, I'm notgoing to the freaking hospital,
I'm just going to flu.
So anyway, she takes forces meto go to the hospital.

(01:16:38):
It turns out I've gotmeningitis, which is something
that can kill you, right?
And um, luckily they picked itup really early.
So I was in the hospital forlike three or four days, totally
just rock bottom.
It's like sick in the hospital,no job, feel like a loser,
nearly died from this meningitisbullshit.

(01:16:58):
But months before I'd organizeda for me and my brothers to go
to Jordan Peterson.
He was coming to Brisbane tocome and do a speech.
So we went along.
I'm in the car with my olderbrother and I'm saying to him
dude, I'm confiding in him.
Oh man, things are so bad atthe moment, I just want to have
some direction.
And he turns around to me andhe goes mate, I bet Jordan

(01:17:20):
Peterson's going to saysomething to you tonight.
That changes your life forever.
And I was like, oh yeah,whatever, mate dressed up, we
sit down for this jordanpeterson show and every time he
does a different show.
He isolates a different rulefrom one of his books and he
speaks about it right.
So he gets out brief preambleand then he goes.

(01:17:40):
The rule he's going to speakabout is think about who you
could be and aim single-mindedlyat that and just boom the next.
For the next few hours he justspoke directly to my soul about,
about thinking about who youcould be and aiming
single-mindedly at that.
So I left that with a new,invigorated sort of ambition to

(01:18:02):
do youtube, because I've gotthis thing, um, this little
rattlesnake tv channel.
It's got about you know, 60subscribers at the moment.
If, if I really push hard, thenmaybe in a year I could have
like 2000 subscribers and Icould be monetized.
I could be making a little bitof money off this.
So I started pushing.
Anyways, a week later I madethis Russell Brand video right,

(01:18:26):
and it was like Russell Brandwith these MSNBC anchors and he
just took them to school and Ibroke it down about how he was
using body language and usingpersuasive techniques and
everything.
Anyways, I went to bed.
I woke up in the morning Ilooked at the video and it had
6,000 views and I almost lost mymind.
Like I ran into my mom's roomlike an excited kid and I was

(01:18:48):
like mom.
6,000 views.
6,000 people watched my video,can you believe it?
And by this stage I had 90subscribers.
I was like mom 6,000 views,6,000 people watched my video,
can you believe it?
And by this stage I had 90subscribers.
I was like I got 30 peoplesubscribed to my channel.
I've got 90 subscribers Like Iwas over the moon, right.
But then something happened.
Over the next few days itliterally went like to the moon,
this video and within a week ithad 1.4 million subscribers,

(01:19:15):
1.4 million views, right.
And I got up to 10,000subscribers and I monetized my
channel and from then on therehas not been a single step back.
It's just been going into itfull on.
But the great thing about it youasked before about what was
different about my channel isthat I have this massive
repository of knowledge aboutdebates and about interactions
that have had that have been hadin the past, because I'm really
obsessed with this stuff.

(01:19:36):
So all these people were doingthese reaction videos etc.
But like they didn't know thatcandace owens spoke at this um,
this summit three years ago,where she debated against ti,
right, and then she took ti toschool on stage.
Nobody had reacted to that, soI took that.
I got all the best moments fromit and I made a video about
that, so that repository wasreally good.

(01:19:57):
But then the problem with thatis that eventually that
repository dried up and then Ihad to do constantly new stuff.
There's no old videos I can goback into.
I've got to be doing breakingnews but you have.

Darren (01:20:08):
so this is that's a fucking amazing story, by the
way, and it and it's so sickbecause, like I often say, you
just need one person to believein you for your entire life to
change, like you just need oneperson bro.
And I try to be that person fora lot of younger people, like
when they've contacted me andthey're 15, and they're 16 and
they've watched my videos fortwo or three years, I like send
them a voice note.
I'm like, here's what you donext, because you just need that

(01:20:30):
one person, because I'd get inthose fucking moments, dude.
But specifically on your fifthchannel I always say this, which
is those four channels thatwere like you know nothing to
you.
They built so much skill, yes,and ability to look at, like
that rattlesnake tv positioning,like.
So I'll give an example.
When you told me about RussellBrand, I would say, oh yes, you

(01:20:53):
were leveraging authoritythrough a storytelling technique
so that video would pop rightand you knew this, like
somewhere deep down back here,and that's where you made it
yeah, yeah right, you're 100,right because you weren't like.
This is why someone like hamzacan create like a seventh
fucking channel which he does,and he has no photo on the

(01:21:13):
YouTube channel, no thumbnail,no title.
The title will say like day oneand the video will get 40,000
views.
Yeah.
And it's, yes, he has anaudience whatever, but in theory
it's because he knows thecounter trend to titles and
thumbnails and scripting andeverything he understands like
that at a deeper level.
And then he shows up in afucking kickboxing gym in Bali

(01:21:36):
and then the video gets 40,000views.
Yeah Right, because he'slearned all these subconscious
skills.
And when I speak to Hamza, hedoesn't even recognize that
about himself.
He doesn't get, he doesn't knowthat he knows so much.
And we've had theseconversations.

Jake (01:21:49):
I'm like I don watch and we've had these conversations.
I'm like I don't think youunderstand how much you know
about videos and he's like everI don't, I just create youtube
videos.
Yeah, yeah, but that's him.

Darren (01:22:01):
Yeah, I think that's like kind of him being humble,
but like he, I think he'ssubconsciously I think that's
what you're pointing out likesubconsciously he would know,
but it's like it's just alanguage that he speaks, you
know, but it's like if youlooked at the bell curve and you
know, like those memes of guyson the bell curve, it's like
make good videos in the bottom,make good videos on top, and
then in the beginning, in themiddle, and it's like thumbnail,
test all of the other stuff,yeah, and it's like you have to

(01:22:22):
go through that arc of beingshit and in the middle to
realize that like, yes, you needthe skill of this for your
content, for your business, forwhatever it is.
Does that make sense?
100?
It's kind of like how we talkedabout the scripting of videos.
Like, like, I'll often just donothing for a podcast in terms
of I'll know who the fuckingperson is, I know that I'm gonna
take in, but I won't haveanything properly scripted the

(01:22:44):
best way to do it sometimes,because I've just spent five
fucking years recording, right,it's.
It's such a.
It's like, it's like the answerwithout the answer.
It's like what's the actionitem here?
It's like nothing.
It's like still do what you'redoing, go through your thousand
shit reps, improve, of course,but there is that point right,

(01:23:06):
and you know um, you would knowhow to beast, you know, dav.

Jake (01:23:11):
Rallis.
I mean, I'm really not anythingthat's not in the political
sphere, I'm really not thatfamiliar with he was really big
in like pick up culture andstuff like dating, dating
channels and all of his channelshave got like a million
subscribers and so on and soforth.

Darren (01:23:23):
And he started a new podcast and the podcast blew up
and so on, and the question thatwas asked to was like how does
this, how does it all work?
Similar to you and it's likebecause most people are
consistently shit for sevenyears, but they have to make
those changes inside everysingle video for you to become
the masterpiece at the end.
Yeah, right, so 100, you can beshit forever.

(01:23:45):
But it sounds like to me thatyou were making those finite one
percent changes.

Jake (01:23:50):
Yes, and then over time then in the cruise and just,
yeah, and just learning,learning about it as I went,
like you have to learn aboutcamera presence and you have to
learn about how to speak topeople and interview and how to
be persuasive and how to useproper language and how to
actually get a better grasp ofthe english language so that, um
, you can at least sound like anauthority and and all these

(01:24:11):
sorts of things.
And then, in terms ofproduction quality, you have to
learn all about productionquality and you have to see what
other people are doing, do allof the different market research
and see why other people aresuccessful, et cetera.
So there's just thousands andthousands and thousands of hours
that go into this.
And I look back on it now andI'm like, yeah, those podcasts
were all shit, but that was justme training, training, training

(01:24:33):
, training, training toeventually get to the place
where I can do something.
That's special public training.

Darren (01:24:38):
So, uh, you know, I've built businesses since I was
super young and I've launchedstuff and I've made money and I
blew shit up.
And a lot of times I would blowstuff up in private and have a
company and I'd make money andthen I just fucking blow it, um,
and I didn't give a shit.
A podcast was my only thingthat was publicly embarrassing
because it was day one.

(01:24:59):
Hey, look at this, look at me,let's try to get attention, but
this is shit.
And then it's always thosesequences of public failure that
you have to do and you onlyhave two options you just keep
going and get better or you justquit, and and 99% of people
just quit, yes, you'reabsolutely spot on about that,
but you've just publicly failed.

Jake (01:25:17):
You ever seen that meme?
You ever seen that meme wherethey're digging for gold and
then you see the gold rightthere and then it's like they
quit just before that they hitthat gold?
Because I never would havesuspected that.
When I was living at my mom'splace, I thought that I was a
podcast failure, right.
I tried this a bunch of times.
I'd had all these footballplayers and I'd had all of these
um, you know, really sort of Ilike sort of well-known martial

(01:25:42):
artists around Melbourne andeverything, but it just never
really popped off.
So I was like I must be theproblem.
So I was ready to throw it away.
Right, I was going into thecorporate world and ready to
sell my soul and throw it awayfor something that I knew that I
would hate.
I was so close man, I was soclose to just having that one
thing that motivated me enoughto eventually send me into a
place where I could earn alittle bit of money, enough to
live on a fucking beach incambodia if I needed to, and

(01:26:03):
then go well, this is what.

Darren (01:26:05):
So this is why I think, uh, coaching is super
interesting because it's allabout what's success for you,
like, what actually?
What to win?
Right, for some people, a winis just opening up YouTube.
For some people, a win is thefirst thousand views or 6,000
views, because a win shouldn'tbe what results Chris Williamson
is getting or the best debaterright, that's not what a win is.

(01:26:27):
Sometimes, a win is people justpaying, getting started playing
a program whatever, but it'sunderstanding what the win.
Is people just paying gettingstarted playing a program
whatever, but it's understandingwhat the win is.
And I try to always bring thatback to the people that we work
with, which is, like, don't belooking at me for what a win is,
just because I have a big teamand we've had five fucking years
doing it and my goals are verydifferent than a lot of other
people's goals.
If your win is getting a clientor getting a customer or

(01:26:50):
getting a thousand views, likestop and acknowledge it, and we
try to do that a lot, because alot of guys that we will work
with slightly off topic like,but a lot of like, so my goal
with the stuff that we have ismainly on their offer.
Now I'm basically out ofeverything else.
I'm out of the podcastproduction.
I'm out of the content advisorystuff.
I'm out of the productionadvisory stuff too.

(01:27:10):
I'm out of all of it becauseit's not where I'm best
positioned.
If I'm going to show up, I haveto help you with your offer.
So, as a result of that, peoplekind of feel a little bit
inferior because they're like,oh, like, we just got like three
clients just cut this month andI'm like, bro, most people will
never, ever, ever, ever getthat.
So you have to slow down andrealize that that's a monumental
win for you and also in thecontext of the entire market,

(01:27:32):
because most guys will never getto that point.
Yeah, and I think I've reallytried to focus in on that with
people which is just like, let'slook at what success looks like
.
You know, and it's aninteresting observation.
What I wanted to say to you aswell was have you ever
considered public speakingcoaching?

Jake (01:27:48):
public speaking coaching.
Yeah, yeah like someone to lookat your public speaking no,
this is why I need to speak toyou more, because you've got,
you've got all the ideas and I'mfloating, I'm floating in the
abyss not even, not even me, bro.

Darren (01:28:02):
let me take a step back.
So, oh, this is such a good,this is such a good conversation
.
So everyone saw that, uh, youknow, chris williamson like
transformed, basically overnight.
He was getting public speakingcoaching back in 2021, 2022, and
I was.
I was like ha gay, you don'tneed that.
And then, obviously, his likeresults were like vroom as a
result.
Now, was it because of that?
It's one of the billionvariables, but what I noticed

(01:28:24):
was back to David Morales, whichis you can be consistently shit
.
For seven years, I wasn't reallygetting better at speaking and
not necessarily speaking, I meanpersuasively speaking and about
like, how to like changesomeone's beliefs and win
someone's to your way ofthinking, which wasn't doing it.
So, one of my good friends,michael campion he's a, he's a
very big public speaking coachfor executives and like fortune

(01:28:46):
100 companies and this guy likeenglish, very like uh proper, I
guess the term very well puttogether.
He's lived in hong kong formany years and I knew he was
doing this and I spoke to himand I was like bro, like I
fucking.
I know that there's a problemhere, but I can't see it.
It's the scariest part, right,the problem that you can't see.
Get on a call with him and I'mlike I'm like dude, what am I

(01:29:06):
going to do?
What do I need and what do Ineed?
What was like you are extremelyhigh in competency, so when you
speak on stage you have a highcompetency radar, so they'd say
out of 10 I know my stuff out of10, but you're very low on

(01:29:27):
warmth but people need to warmto you to buy from you.
He was like.
He was like it's and it's notabout like people buy from
people they trust people buyfrom people.
They like it's just like this,like human nature thing.
And he broke it all down for meand he was like if you smile
more, if you involve the crowdmore, if you use more
rhetoricals, if you lightentheir resistance with laughter

(01:29:50):
and smiling, and that It'llbring their walls down.
It brings their walls down.
It brings their walls down.
And he was like that was thefirst conversation where I went
and I was like I was like whatelse?
And then we went through thishuge process for the past like
three, four months and he's agather is this?
And there's the way you speakabout that and there's the way
he rolled your tongue on xyz andit was all baked in on, like,
how do we actually get people tolisten to what we want to

(01:30:12):
listen to?
At the very least, just listento what we want to listen to?
At the very least, just listento what we want to do?
And super, super interestingSince then, I do a lot of
speaking from stage and thatlogic is called what's it called
?
There's a term for it where yousell from stage.
We actually do it and I wouldsay in 2025, most people don't
do it anymore, but we're able to.

(01:30:33):
I'm able to go to an event, seeseven right speakers, realize
that most of them are fuckingshit, because people don't
inherently learn how to speak.
It's very tough skill to learn.
I can get on stage, talkspecifically to you amongst 500
other people, make me makemyself feel like I'm connected
with 500 people, and then thesepeople literally buy from me
immediately.
It's happened.

(01:30:53):
It's literally happened and II've said to him I was like bro,
like what the fuck has happened?
He's like, yeah, well done,you're finally actually speaking
to people, people actually likeyou.
That's so interesting.
So, again, it's themetaphysical layer of the world
that's happening, and I've saidthis to other people who were
like high level entrepreneursand stuff.
He's super impressive dude andhe's actually coming to our

(01:31:14):
mastermind as well next year.
Next month he's going to be inBali for it, but it's because he
was doing it for so many years.
He's a professional footballplayer and everything and he was
just very into that world, justlike you're into your world.
And very interestingobservation.

Jake (01:31:30):
Yeah, that's so interesting.
I mean it's a very, very goodskill to have.
I see some of the best publicspeakers, guys like Konstantin
Kissin, for example, a very goodpublic speaker Every time he
does speeches at ARC.
I was at the ARC conferenceJordan Peterson's conference a
few months ago and this guy wasjust really Douglas Murray as
well yeah, compelling speaker.

(01:31:52):
But they always are funny aswell and relatable.
Because if you go up there andyou're just sort of spitting
facts, you might be spittingbars, you might be saying truth
and everything, but if you'renot a little bit funny and a
little bit warm and smiling andspeaking directly to people as
well because if you speak to theaudience it can be overwhelming
, but if you isolate people inthe audience, then that's a much
better thing to do.

Darren (01:32:10):
If you think back at it, right, look at the and look at,
look at people who've movednations historically.
They all spoke because therewas no fucking tweeding, right.
They all spoke and they wereable to move empires.
And then you have politicianswho shouldn't have been elected
or were elected, but they weregood speakers.
You look at something likebarack obama right, fuck knows

(01:32:32):
what he did.
Clinton has right, but theyjust spoke immediately.
Well, because it's like there'ssuch a primal thing to connect
with someone and, at the veryleast, if you look at it through
that lens, okay.
And then if you look at throughthe lens of, like people that
are trying to again, you knowDouglas Murray and so on, so
forth, I look at like Alex Ramosin the business space.
He'll do one of two things in avideo.

(01:32:54):
He'll do this.
He'll say here's how to growyour business from someone who
sold a company for 42 millionand has a portfolio company that
makes 250 million a year.
That's like social proofing,okay.
But then the other thing you'lldo on stage is he'll start a
conversation being like here'show to grow your sales team, and
he'll stop and be like who herehas struggled to close a sale
before?
And no one will move theirhands because they're all super

(01:33:14):
scared and you're like oh, it'sjust me who should have sales
done, and then everyone laughs.
So it's self-deprecating andalso bringing people down,
bringing yourself down and thenthem loosing their juices
effectively and that's it.
There's literally nobody elseinvolved apart from that, and

(01:33:35):
that immediately gets people tobe like I like this guy, yeah,
yeah and I listen to him.

Jake (01:33:39):
Yeah, I do, I implement that all the time,
self-deprecating humor on mychannel all the time, which is
really because you know ifyou're speaking about these
sorts of things, you don't wantto feel like you're speaking
down to people yeah people hatebeing spoken down to.
But if you I'll always callmyself like, I'll be like, like,
oh, I'm so stupid, I'm likethis and that, not because I
think I'm stupid, but becauseself-deprecating humor can be

(01:34:00):
like oh, this guy doesn't takehimself too seriously and we're
having a conversation, two humanbeings trying to sort out ideas
and trying to sort of bounceoff each other.
Because that's kind of whathappens when you have a
parasocial relationship withsomebody, which means that you
have a relationship withsomebody that's not in person,
but it's, it's, it's on online.
Basically, we have a Paris,that parasocial relationship
with somebody.
You still want to feel theauthenticity right and you still

(01:34:21):
want to feel as though thatperson is relatable.
And if you met them in person,you'd be able to have a beer
with them and you kind of get ummore of a personable vibe from
them.
And this is why I was saying toyou before when we were having a
coffee is that like the travelvloggers who say they have this
really fake persona all the time?
It's like hey, welcome back tomy travel channel.

(01:34:42):
I can never get down with that,because I'm like you don't
speak like that, just beyourself.
I'm sure there's nothing wrongwith what yourself is.

Darren (01:34:51):
It's insecurity though.

Jake (01:34:52):
Yeah.

Darren (01:34:52):
They're not like they haven't done the internal work,
I haven't gone through that arc,right, but I think it's the for
you know, looking at you inparticular, it's looking, you
know, again, you eitherconsciously or unconsciously,
are doing these things.
So you say, like here are mychristian beliefs.
From someone that was anatheist, it's like, hey, dude,
like I was in that position, Ithought the world was going to
like burn alive.

(01:35:13):
Here's what I've learned.
That's the most important part,and I would do that as well in
terms of like, here's what we do.
From someone who used to recordinto the void for fucking two
years straight.
Here's what I know, what itfeels like to look at a Stripe
account for multiple years andit has no money, right.
So, and I think that's why it'salso really important to not
try to put yourself above people, right and I know people use

(01:35:36):
that as like a marketingstrategy too which is like it's
like the mystical God, it's likeI'm up here, therefore, listen
to me.
It's kind of like on thepedestal vibe.
It works, but I feel like it'snot what I want to be.

Jake (01:35:47):
Yeah, does that make sense ?
Yeah, a hundred percent.
And I never relate to thoseguys, the ones that are like
selling they've got this amazinglife.
I'm like dude, just be real.
I get it, you've had somesuccess and everything, but
you're also a human being and wealso have the same sort of like
.
We probably have a lot of thesame sort of issues and

(01:36:09):
securities and hope, biologyyeah, hope of heaven, fears of
hell, all of these sorts ofthings going on.
The same existential dramasconnect on a human level.
I get it, you've got a lot ofmoney and everything.
But if you can connect with meon that human level, I'm so much
more likely to actually formthat sort of parasocial
relationship where I see you asI humanize you as opposed to see

(01:36:30):
you as something that's just onscreen.
That's what rogan did.
But in terms of the like, theum, what we were saying before,
there's a really good saying.
I think it was gk chesterton orone of these guys.
It's a christian saying um, andit goes there, but for the
grace of god, go I.
So every time you look atsomebody and they're maybe, you
know, not as a, not, not, notachieving as much or whatever,

(01:36:52):
it's like there, but for thegrace of god, go.
I said like that was me.
You know that couldn't be me.
That was me.
That essentially is me, besidesa few different graces that
I've, that I've had in my life.
So I do like to look at prettymuch everybody in that sort of
same same vein.
You know, yeah, people arelooking up at me for advice or
if they're looking for me forfor um, you know, knowledge, et

(01:37:16):
cetera.
You know that is me just a fewyears ago.

Darren (01:37:20):
So do you have any final advice for people that are
trying to grow their YouTubechannel?

Jake (01:37:25):
Um, never do the money dance.
So me and my, me and Vinny, wehave this um, this, saying that
we never do the money dance,which is basically when good
things happen to you and whenyou achieve certain feats, for
example, when you get to 100,000subscribers and you've had a
few videos that have gone reallywell and you get a lot of
positive recognition.

(01:37:45):
Pretty much.
Just take that with a grain ofsalt, all of the positive
recognition that you get, all ofthis adulation and everything.
It can just go in the click ofher fingers and they're onto the
next guy.
So never, ever, think thatyou're at the top of the hill
and start doing the money danceand thinking that everything
that you touch is now going toturn to gold because you're good
at something.
There's a reason why you'vegotten to the place where you

(01:38:08):
are.
There's a reason why you'vegotten your first thousand
subscribers, your first 10,000subscribers.
There's a reason why people areleaving nice comments in your
comment section, and that'sbecause whatever you're doing is
working.
So look at that zone in on that, realize what it is that you're
good at, what your skills are,and then don't go and do the
money dance and think that nowI've made it.

(01:38:28):
Everything I do is going toturn to gold.
We had a really good moment likethis when we were in Japan.
Right, we were making thispolitical commentary and this
debate content and we do halfserious, half satirical.
We'll take the piss a lot ofthe time.
So it's funny, political,relatable, personable, fun to
listen to, but you also get alot of value.
You're going to get stats andfigures and you'll learn

(01:38:50):
something.
You're going to have a laughand that's what it is.
We're going a community here.
So me and v were like dude,awesome, got all these views
coming in.
These people love what we'redoing.
All right, we're gonna now go toum, the south of japan, and
we're gonna do littledocumentary films about um, what
was that thing called the um,the uh, the thing underwater in

(01:39:10):
japan?
Remember that?
Oh, that's right, we would.
That was a little bit morerelatable.
We were talking to girls on thestreet in different countries
being like what do you, what doyou find attractive in a man?
A little bit more relatable.
But then we're like we're goingto do a documentary series now
about these underwaterstructures in japan.
We're going to go scuba divingand we're going to go and look
at these underwater structures,these megaliths in japan and do

(01:39:31):
this travel video.
It's going to cost us thousandsof dollars, but we're going to
do that, and then maybe we'll goto the pyramids or something
after that and we started makingthese travel videos and they
would really flop hard right.
We didn't do those videoseventually, but we were doing
these various different travelvideos where we'd go.
We were in South Korea and wewent to the DMZ, to the

(01:39:52):
demilitarized zone, and we weretalking to the South Koreans
about what they think aboutNorth Koreans and it's
interesting, it's good for ourportfolio, but people didn't
really care about it and we werethinking to ourselves but we're
getting all these views on ourother content, why are we
getting 200 views on?
This content.
But it was because that's notwhat people were there to see us
about.
And if we built our profile tothe point where everything we

(01:40:14):
touch turned to gold, which somepeople can do tate, for example
if he went and did that itwould just blow up, right?
But we're not that guy yet,right?
We're still.
People still want to see thevideos that we're covering in
terms of politics and they wantto have that really positive
viewer viewing experience wherethey'll click on our video and
they know there's going to be acoming up and then I'm going to
introduce the video and thenwe're going to watch some clips,

(01:40:36):
they're going to have a laugh,they might learn something.
They don't care about theunderwater structures in Japan,
right?
So that's that sort ofcomfortable viewer experience is
so important.
You want it to be a like a.
You want there to be a rhymeand a rhythm to it where people
have that sort of comfortability, where it's not a jarring
experience.
They click on your video andthen there's like things popping

(01:40:58):
out at them when that normallywouldn't happen.
They can ease into the video,they know what's happening and
it's just this comfortableviewer experience where they get
what they were looking for,right?
So don't ever think thatbecause one thing goes well,
that everything else you'regoing to do is going to go well,
because you might investshitload of time and money into
doing this thing over here, thatis another gold shiny object

(01:41:20):
that isn't necessarily going tobe successful.
Sure, if you really want to dothat, slowly turn that train
around and still have this traingoing.
But slowly turn this trainaround and sort of just massage
that side project, but don't but, don't try and do the money
dance.

Darren (01:41:37):
It's a great point to finish, man.

Jake (01:41:38):
Yeah.

Darren (01:41:39):
Love you guys.
Do You're a legend?
This is so much fun, man.

Jake (01:41:42):
Appreciate it, brother.
It's been great to do it.

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#288 Jake Julius - How to Win Any Argument Effortlessly

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#288 Jake Julius - How to Win Any Argument Effortlessly