#297 Bredan Kane - The Secret to Making Viral Content That Actually Sells - Kickoff Sessions

Episode Transcript
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Darren Lee (00:00):
How can someone use viral content to generate more
revenue for their business?

Brendan Kane (00:05):
Where most people struggle is they're operating
off the old paradigm ofmarketing, which is create a
niche message for a nicheaudience.
We focus on what's called thegeneralist principle, which
means how can we make ourcontent accessible and
interesting to the widerpossible audience while still
talking to that specific nichethat is going to pay our bills?

(00:26):
I know people with millions offollowers that barely make six
figures.
I know people with millions offollowers that have built
billion dollar companies.
Social media is an amazing toolto drive awareness, build
connection and you can make aton of money, but it's
predicated and dictated by whatis the foundational piece of
your business.

Darren Lee (00:46):
So, like all right man, let's kick off.
Let's do it Round two.
So I think where I'd love tostart is how can someone use
viral content to generate morerevenue for their business?

Well, I think that there's first off, when we talk
about virality, let's kind ofdefine that, because virality is
kind of thrown around a lot andI think at least what I see
from my experience sometimesvirality gets a bad rap because
people see like prank videos ordog videos or just TikTok dances

(01:21):
and they associate that withvirality, but they don't
necessarily associate that withyour business.
So, for example, if you're anaccountant or a lawyer or some
type of coach in like a businesscoach, like how is like doing a
silly TikTok dance or postingvideos about your dog or another
dog going to actually correlateto revenue?

(01:41):
So I think that the first waythat I look at virality in our
company hook point is what isthe impact that it's having on
your goals and your business?
I don't ever believe of goingviral for the sake of going
viral.
It needs to correlate to yourspecific expertise, to your
specific services, your specificbusiness.

(02:03):
And I think one of thechallenges people run into is,
especially if they're in a nicheindustry.
They're like my industry is notsexy enough, it's like it's not
interesting enough, it can't goviral.
But the reality is lawyers goviral, insurance goes viral,
real estate goes viral,nutrition, things of that nature
.
So for some businesses and I'msure you've seen it some

(02:24):
businesses you get 50,000 viewson average per content and
you're killing it.
Others need hundreds ofthousands, others millions or
tens of millions.
But it's really determined bythe foundational aspect of your
business and how are youcorrelating your content, your
content strategy that drivesthat specific top level

(02:44):
awareness, to what you do?

Darren Lee (02:47):
So let's double tap on that.
So let's say you are the lawyer, okay, and you're creating very
actionable advice.
So let's say you're showingpeople how to stay out of jail,
how to not get caught for doingX, y, z, how to be compliant in
their own field.
How does that translate intolike viral content?
Because how do we hit themasses?
So when I read through yourbooks, you always talk about

(03:08):
hitting a wider TAM, initiallygoing broad, but then there's a
specificity.
So how can we?
How can we do that?
Basically, just want to takeone quick break to ask you one
question have you been enjoyingthese episodes?
Because, if you have, I'dreally appreciate if you
subscribe to the channel so thatmore people can see these
episodes and be influenced tobuild an online business this

(03:29):
year.
Thank you.

So where most people struggle is they're
operating off the old paradigmof marketing, which is create a
niche message for a nicheaudience.
Now, as we look at social media, the paradigm has completely
shifted.
So, taking it back when Istarted in social media, the
paradigm has completely shifted.
So taking it back when Istarted in social media, I
started in 2005.
Those first five years ofsocial media were pretty simple

(03:51):
you get somebody to follow youraccount, you post something and
people see it.
But as more and more peoplestarted to enter the ecosystem
of social media, to the point,today we're at 5 billion people
using these platforms and thelatest statistic I saw is
there's over a billion pieces ofcontent that are uploaded every
day to social media across allthese platforms.

(04:12):
So if you think about any oneof us, if we opened up our
favorite app, there's probably150,000 pieces of content that
could be served to just you asan individual, based upon the
amount of people that you follow, the type of content that
you've engaged with.
So obviously you can't just beseeded 150,000 pieces of content

(04:33):
as you open up an app.
That'd be just immenselyoverwhelming.
So what had to happen as socialmedia evolved?
Well, social media platformsinvented the algorithms, and the
algorithms were designed andare designed to do one
fundamental thing, and that isto keep people on the platforms
longer, meaning the more timepeople spend on a platform, the

(04:53):
more ads they can serve, themore profit they generate.
Now I know there's a lot offrustrated content creators that
pour their heart and soul andenergy into content and it
doesn't work.
I feel your pain, but it's notthat the algorithms are out to
get you.
They're not suppressing yourreach on purpose to get you to
pay for reach.
I know this because I'vemanaged over $200 million worth
of ad spend.
They don't make money off ofyou and I boosting a post.

(05:15):
They make it off ofcorporations spending billions
and billions of dollars ofadvertising.
In addition, why would Mr Beastbe the most subscribed person
on YouTube at this point?
When he started at 13 years oldin a bedroom in North Carolina,
the most subscribed YouTubechannel would be like Apple or
McDonald's or Pepsi or one ofthose major brands that invest

(05:38):
billions of dollars.
So I say that because whatthese algorithms really care
about is what, out of all of outof the billion pieces of
content that are uploaded everyday, what are the select few
that I can send to the mostamount of people grab their
attention and hold theirattention.

(05:58):
So, when we look at the oldparadigm of creating a niche
message for a niche audience,why doesn't that work?
Well, because the minute thatpiece of content is seeded to
somebody outside your audience,what's going to happen?
They're likely going to scrollpast it and not watch it.
On top of it, in social media,you're not just directly

(06:18):
competing against yourcompetitors or people in your
industry.
Remember the 150,000 posts whenwe first opened up.
You're competing against all ofthose.
And what happens?
When somebody typically createsa niche message for a niche
audience, it typically feelsstale, it feels boring, not
super engaging.
So at Hookpoint, what we do iswe focus on what's called the
generalist principle, whichmeans how can we make our

(06:41):
content accessible andinteresting to the wider
possible audience while stilltalking to that specific niche
that is going to pay our bills?
So I'll give you a prime exampleof a client we worked with.
It's a guy named TannerLeatherstein, fascinating guy.
At age 11, he created his firstleather jacket.

(07:02):
He just fell in love withleather goods and, like most
people, he grows up and he hasthis.
He just fell in love withleather goods and, like most
people, he grows up and he hasthis dream but it kind of gets
deflated.
So he became a cab driver for aperiod of years and then just
realized you know what I'm goingto go back to that leather you
know creating leather goodsbecause I really love it.
So he built a leather brandwhich would sell like high-end,
handcrafted leather goods likeiPhone cases, briefcases, purses

(07:28):
, wallets and things of thatnature.
But when he came to us he wasstruggling.
He was using social media.
He saw the vision of it but hewas like plateaued at 2,000
followers.
He couldn't get videos past20,000 views.
Why?
Because he was just creatingads and was creating content
that was like specifically nicheto the people that would buy
his product and services andspecifically niche to the people

(07:49):
interested in leather goods.
So what we did with kind ofthat larger vision of like, how
do we turn virality intocommerce?
How do we turn it into business?
We helped him design astorytelling format, and a
format is basically it's astructure, it's a blueprint,
it's well researched, it'sproven to generate success over

(08:09):
and over again.
So you have kind of like thestructure but you can insert
your message or brand into it.
So with Tanner, we created aformat with him called Is it
Worth it, where basically hewould deconstruct.
You know he'd buy like a $5,000Chanel handbag and he'll
actually pay the money for thisbecause he doesn't want to take
like free products from thesecompanies and be forced to kind

(08:33):
of give good reviews.
But he'll take a $5,000 handbagand deconstruct it on screen to
tell you whether it's worth themoney that you're paying for it
.
So this storytelling format,anybody would be interested in
it.
Even I don't buy a $5,000Chanel hammock but I want to see
, like, are these companiesripping people off or is there
actual substance to it?

(08:53):
So that single format plays thegeneralist principle.
It speaks to the wider audience, people like you and I that
would never buy those things,but we're interested in it.
And because the numbers scale solarge, even if it's just like
5% of his audience, because hewent from 2,000 followers to 2.3
million across his social mediachannels.

(09:14):
He has 94 videos, 94 individualvideos with over a million
views.
So you think about that Like,let's just say, your business
today, maybe on average, you'regenerating a thousand views of a
video, but of that thousand,70% is your core niche audience.
Well, what if you can make thatjump and you're generating a

(09:34):
million views a month and it wasless than 5%.
So what does that impact?
You're going from 700 to 50,000potential customers.
That's where the economies ofscale come in.
And with Tanner, like, he's noteven doing like calls to
actions in his content, he justhas a link in his bio and people
just buy his most expensiveproducts, sell out, because he's

(09:58):
building this relationship,he's building this trust, he's
building this connection throughstory and the algorithm.
See, oh, people are stoppingand watching this, so let's seed
it to more and more people.

Darren Lee (10:08):
Do you think that you're working with percentages
overall?
So if it's like 5% are ICP,that will actually grow through
time, because sometimes I'mseeing these smaller accounts
have a very strong revenue perfollower.
Okay, so let's say 10,000followers, they're making
$50,000 a month.
That's like a revenue perfollower of X.

(10:28):
Can you hold that relationshipas your audience keeps on
growing?

The answer is yes, but the deeper question is well
, how are they growing?
What are the methods?
Are they growing?
Are they losing sight?
You know, because you know, asthe algorithms came into be, a
lot of frustrated contentcreators would see less and less
reach, less and less engagementwith each piece of content they
created.
So they kind of seek, likehacks, brand new, like

(11:06):
revolutionary medium, when inreality all social media is it's
another storytelling platform.
So if we look at the history ofstorytelling, storytelling has
been leveraged to buildcivilizations.
Like it started all the wayback on cave walls of the
cavemen putting things you knowstories in terms of that and
then it went to the Egyptiansusing hieroglyphics.

(11:27):
Then it went to the printingpress.
You know people were tellingstories through books and then
you invent the radio and thetelevision and movies.
Like social media is justanother storytelling platform
and most people don't realizethat.
They think that, like socialmedia is some mystery box, that
virality is like just pure luck.
You know that it's like playingthe lottery and like only the

(11:50):
select few do it.
But if you really analyzesocial media, it's the best
storytellers that win and if youjust focus on becoming a better
storyteller, you willultimately have success.

Darren Lee (12:04):
What type of stories do you think in particular that
you focus on?
So I'm kind of familiar withmore of the story the personal
led story, okay, but you'rebringing these frameworks like
Tanner is a perfect example,like I've never heard the way
that you've described that.
Do you create unique storymechanisms for people?

So we analyze the world of storytelling and social
media through formats and as Imentioned it's kind of a
structure that you can insertyour message into.
Now at our company, Hookpoint,we've done 10,000 hours of
research, and I'm not sayingit's 10,000 because Malcolm
Gladwell said you need 10,000hours to become an expert.
Our team has actually loggedover 10,000 hours of research
and we've analyzed over 300 ofthese.

(12:46):
You know formats or structures.
So just to kind of give youanother example of a format not
in social media, but to givekind of concept to the format is
you know, I started my careerin the movie industry.
You know 90% of the movies overthe past hundred years have
followed the exact same formatand it's a three-act structure.
And some people hear the wordformat and they're like, oh,

(13:08):
that sounds cool, but I want tobe original, I want to be
authentic and a format feelslike it's going to constrict
creativity.
But in reality formats unlockcreativity.
So if we think about, likeSteven Spielberg, one of the
best storytellers of ourgeneration, if you look at his
movies, you look at ET versusJurassic Park, indiana Jones

(13:29):
versus Lincoln, saving PrivateRyan versus Encounters of the
Third Kind, like each moviefeels completely distinctly
different.
It's not like we sit down andbe like, oh, there's Steven
again, he's using another 3Xstructure.
We get lost, kind of, in thatstory.
So what we're looking at withsocial media is these clear

(13:50):
formats, these clear structures.
So I'll give you some examplesof them.
We just mentioned Tanner, but,like a really popular one, is
man on the street.
So you approach a randomstranger on the street and you
engage with them.
Now, the interesting thingabout formats is don't pay
attention to the street.
So you approach a randomstranger on the street and you
engage with them.
Now, the interesting thingabout formats is don't pay
attention to the content, payattention to the context, and
what I mean is a format like manon the street.

(14:12):
It's used by school of hardknocks that does
entrepreneurship business, wherethey approach a person and be
like how did you make your firstmillion dollars?
It's used by a friend andclient of ours, alex Stemp.
That's a photographer,approaches random strangers on
the street, offers them aprofessional photo shoot.
There's another individual Bodyby Mark that approaches people

(14:34):
that look fit on the street andasks what is your workout.
Caleb Simpson approaches peopleon the street and asks how much
do you pay for rent?
And you do home tours.
So these formats again, they'restructures that have proven
success time and time again thatyou can insert your message
into.
Another one that a lot of peoplehave probably seen is two
characters one light bulb whereit's the same person plays two
different characters and theydebunk a common myth about an

(14:56):
industry.
So Erica Kohlberg does itaround like the fine print and
legal contracts what happens ifyour AirPods break?
What happens if your flightgets canceled or delayed?
Mark Tilbury uses this aroundlike financial aspects.
There's another one walkinglisticles.
Robert Croke does it where he'swalking around the block and he
just does like the top threethings you need to do if you

(15:16):
want to be the first millionairein your family.
So there's these clearstructures that are available to
people.
You just need to insert yourmessage into it?

Darren Lee (15:25):
Would you add podcasting as a?

form yes absolutely.

Darren Lee (15:29):
Why do you think some podcasters and their clips
repurposed well work and thensome completely flop?
If you look at a ChrisWilliamson reel, of course he's
a charismatic and he speaksreally clear, but then there's
some other people then thatwould have the same level of
content that's repurposed.
That wouldn't smash.
And then also, to add to that,do you think platforms are
different in terms of thealgorithm, in response to the

(15:51):
message too?
Tiktok versus Instagram?

So, in terms of podcasts, let's talk long form
and then we can talk short form.
Long form the most successfulpodcasters.
From a long-form perspective,they're creating an experience.

Darren Lee (16:07):
So you hear.

Joe Rogan experience.
He's one of the first people.
But if you and this is aprocess that we do for all
content, we call it the hookpoint mirror test If you really
want to understand what's thedifference between a high
performer and a low performer,you put the high performer on
one side of the screen, the lowperformer on the other side of
the screen and you watch themside by side.
You put the high performer onone side of the screen, the low
performer on the other side ofthe screen and you watch them
side by side.

(16:27):
And if it's your content, aslong as you're honest with
yourself and you're comparingapples to apples comparison Like
I wouldn't compare like EricaColbert that does two characters
, one light bulb, to a podcast,Vice versa.
I wouldn't do like man on theStreet comparing it to a podcast
, because they're two differentformats.
You need to compare apples toapples.
You need to compare apples toapples.
But if you look at like StephenBartlett, Joe Rogan, Lex

(16:49):
Friedman, and you watch it,compared to like a podcast on
YouTube that's getting like1,000 views or 5,000 views, you
will see this level of theexperience they create within
that environment.

(17:09):
They make you feel like you'rethere, that there's a
conversation happening.
I think a lot of podcasters gowrong when they treat it as an
interview because it's it'sinterviews have a high
propensity for falling flatbecause you rely too heavily on
the guest versus you know.
Stephen Bartlett, joe Rogan,alex Friedman, they are, they're
, they're, you know're takingyou on a journey through the
conversation versus justquestion answer.
Question answer.
Question answer Agreed.

(17:31):
And then in terms of the clips,the clips are completely
different dynamic because it'sshort form.
So a lot of the areas where itfalls flat is obviously what is
the hook Like?
Are we driving a generalistapproach or generalist principle
hook in that that grabs ourattention?
Is there some type of massiveperspective shift that's

(17:52):
happening in the content?
Is there an aha moment wherewe're coming in?
The hook sets the expectationand we're completely flipping
the perspective on what wethought about a new, about a
specific subject matter.
Because if we see the hook orwe see the content as something
we already know, you're going tomove on, You're not going to

(18:13):
share it, you're not going toengage with it.
There's also a big thing thatwe call work-to-wow ratio.
How hard does the viewer haveto work to get that wow out of
the clip?
Does?
the viewer have to work to getthat wow out of the clip.
So if you, if it's too dense,if it's too kind of like using
too much jargon, we have tothink too hard, like our

(18:33):
subconscious is trained that ifwe feel like we're being left
behind, we just scroll past thenext one.
Yeah, you just you just keepgoing to, to, to that next one,
um.
So we have to really look atyou know what is the, the
structure to that clip, to makesure that we're delivering on
all these levels, that the notjust grab attention but hold it.
And sometimes, a lot of times,we see um and a lot of clips not

(18:55):
just, you know, podcast clipsis you need to have like a
second or third hook in there,even in like a 60 to 90.
Second thing is like you, you,you have a hook, you, you, you,
you shift that perspective withthat and then another hook comes
in and creates a new questionand you want to keep going and
you want to keep going to tofind out the ending.
And it's kind of like if youwatch any movie, like what

(19:17):
happens in a movie like missionimpossible just came out, you
know there's a challenge, theydefeat the challenge and then
they go down and there's a newchallenge and then they have to
defeat that and it just goes upand down, up and down.
It's not like MissionImpossible or most movies that
the character just goes in andthey have just one main problem.
There's many problems that leadup to solving that main problem

(19:39):
.
And you have to have that levelof dynamics in you form podcast
clip in addition to a long formone as well.

Darren Lee (19:48):
This is crazy.
This is so beneficial, by theway, the way that you think
about this, because you can seeit right.
You can see examples where thishits and where it doesn't hit.
So I have a public speakingcoach and the first thing he
said to me when we startedworking together was you're high
on competency, but you're lowon warmth, so you're not smiling
, engaging, interacting andthat's having an impact on when
I'm speaking on stage, when I'mrecording podcasts, and you have

(20:10):
to interject that.
And I feel for people that havehigh competency, they struggle
sometimes to come down to center.
How do you find that?
In creating short form or anytype of viral content, Almost
the question is around how doyou ensure that it's inviting
right, it's?
You're building that community,you're building that strong
strength with the viewer andyou're not looking at them from

(20:32):
like a third party perspectiveto decide.

Yeah, so I kind of had a similar experience to you
in my journey of being aspeaker, being out there
conveying information, is youknow, I'm really logic based, so
people say well, brendan, whydon't you smile Like you know
why you don't look like you'rehaving fun or I'm having the
best time ever, yeah.
Um.
So I had to kind of take a stepback and just be like you know

(20:59):
what are those dynamics?
What am I kind of doing wrong?
Because, like, get so excitedabout what you want to share In
my case it's information, it'sdata, it's facts but then a lot
of people don't kind of connectwith that.
So at Hookpoint we use what wecall communication algorithm and
what it has been around sincethe 1970s and basically what it

(21:22):
does is it breaks down thedifferent ways that people
perceive content, perceive theworld, perceive you.
So there's six different ways.
So the largest subset is whatyou're talking about.
What your speaking coachadvised you on is feelings-based
.
There's 30% of the population.
So they connect with you basedupon how you make them feel.

(21:42):
So they share your content,they follow you, they buy your
products and services based uponhow they think it's going to
make them feel.
The second subset of thepopulation is fact-based.
So that's me, it's 25% of thepopulation.
So for them, it's not aboutfeelings.
It's like does this make sense?
They want information,timeframes, facts, data and

(22:02):
things of that nature.
The third largest is fun-based.
So for them, they want it to beengaging, they want it to be
the reaction, the fun aspect ofthe content.
They want to know that they'regoing to enjoy it.
10% is values and opinion-based.
So for them is do I trust thisperson?

(22:24):
Do I believe in this person?
Are they dedicated to me as anindividual?
And then another 10% isreflective-based, so they just
reflect on the world.
So if you saw Oppenheimer withAlbert Einstein, where he's the
entire movie, he's just sittingout overlooking a lake,
reflecting on the world.
That was really him.
He would just take information,stare out a window, stare at a

(22:47):
lake and, like his best theoriesand ideas would come that way.
And then the smallest subset ofthe population, 5%, is
action-based, so they don'tthink.
They don't feel, they just go.
Like incidence is theirpsychological need.
So the best example is againTom Cruise in Mission Impossible
.
Like, what is he doing?
He's jumping off the side ofbuildings, he's hanging off the

(23:08):
sides of planes.
He's not talking about hisfeelings, he's not talking about
his opinions or facts, it'sjust go, go, go.
So in terms of what you'retalking about is the content of
what we're delivering doesn'tneed to change, but the context
of how we're delivering doesn'tneed to change, but the context
of how we're delivering it is.

(23:28):
So, for example, like I worked,I got brought in by Gary Keller
, the founder of Keller Williams, and we did analysis of how
people sell homes and most of itis just fact-based.
It's this house has fivebedrooms, four bathrooms and an
acre of land.
So that's 25% of the population, but you're knocking out 75% or
you're disconnecting from 75%.

(23:50):
So how would we take the samecontent of a house and not
completely change who we are,but also reshape it?
So we still want to have factsand say this house has five
bedrooms, four bathrooms and anacre of land, but you see this
fireplace.
Imagine what it's going to feellike when you're with your

(24:10):
family around that fireplace onChristmas Eve opening presents.

Darren Lee (24:13):
That's cool.

And did you see the pool in the backyard?
You are going to have thefunnest and craziest parties and
all your neighbors are going tobe super jealous and I really
believe that this is a good fitfor your family because this
school district is the best inthe state.
But I highly recommend that youmove fast now because this is
the best house on the market andit's going to move fast.
So, again, like I started withfacts and then I went to

(24:37):
feelings and imagination, thereflection part of it, with.
I want you to reflect andimagine what it's going to be
like on Christmas Eve.
I talked about the friend.
You know how jealous yourfriends and how much fun you're
going to have with the pool.
I layered in my beliefs in asubtle way of like this has the
best school district in themarket and then you know you
need to move fast because thisis the best house.

Darren Lee (24:58):
So, moving to that action-based so basically,
you're actually incorporatingall of these things, yeah.

Typically when we work with clients, we say focus
on the big three feelings, factsand fun because, you hit 75% of
the population.
Values and opinions can betricky because even if you
insert your values or opinionslike, 50% could just disagree
with that opinion that you have.

Darren Lee (25:21):
How important is it to almost split the audience?
So have people that are in yourtribe cult community and then
throw stones at the enemy.
Like how often do you see?
Well, it obviously works right.
But is there a world where youcan grow your business and your
content and go viral withoutdoing that stuff?

It's difficult.
There's some, you know, somepeople intuitively do it Um, and
it will work.
I would say, for vast majorityof the people that we work with
and what we've seen, that's oneof the issues that they're
failing to to break through.
It's like anybody we work with.
We make them take thiscommunication assessment so we
can really understand theirstrengths and weaknesses and

(26:02):
point that out to them, becausethis is and even like what you
were talking about with yourspeaking coach it's not your
fault that you weren't, you know, mostly connecting with people.
You didn't have the awareness.
But once you have awareness,then you can start working on
the solution.
But it's, it's real.
I'm not saying it's impossible.
It's just really difficult fora majority of people stepping

(26:25):
into social media, if they wantto be kind of at that top 1% and
really break through, to nothave that diversity in terms of
how they're communicating.
However, you don't need to gooverboard in any direction.
You know, when I just brokedown the house like I didn't
spend a lot of time in each one,lot of time in each one.
So it's like you can just youknow, you know, say like for you

(26:45):
with you know feelings.
It's just like, hey, it's, it'sreally great to see you all
here today.
I appreciate, um, the time thatwe're going to spend to connect
together and that can be enough.
Then you can move into yourcomfort zone.
But you got to kind of openthat channel, connect with them
so that they have thatmotivation based upon their
psychological needs being metand then you can move into your

(27:08):
communication strengths.

Darren Lee (27:09):
That's so interesting to observe, man,
because you can again comparingthe good and the bad.
I can see the good and I can seethe bad from it.
I want to get your observationfor a sec on Ashton Hall.
So the ice dude, right?
What do you think works so wellthere?
I was going to pull up a clipbut I don't have my phone on me.
But if you saw the most recentclip from like yesterday, it's
him running against another guy,an overweight guy.
It has like 115 million views.

(27:32):
Why has his videos consistentlybeen hitting every single
algorithm?

Well, one, it's retention.
It's not going to hit thealgorithm and build a, to build
an audience and build viewership, if it's not grabbing and
holding attention.
So I think and I haven'tconsumed a lot of his content
but I know who you're talkingabout.
It's the same thing, though youknow every day, but there's the
visual hook in the beginning,like this guy with a shirt off,

(28:00):
and especially the crazy hookwith the ice water and things of
that nature, and it sparks alevel of curiosity of like what
is this guy going to be doing?
And then you mentioned what wasthis guy going to be doing?

Darren Lee (28:14):
Um, and then you mentioned what was the recent
video that he did.
So he's doing a lot of videosof him running, yeah, and it's
like him, and there's like a guythat's like generally like very
overweight, it's like 250 pound, and the two of them are
running side by side, and that'sit, and it has like 115 million
views.
I'll throw it up on the screen,but it's uh, it's crazy like
well, I think that there's that,I guess, the shock factor well,
yeah, but I think the firstquestion is is like how many

(28:35):
times have you seen that?

have you?
How many times have you seenlike the ultra fit guy, true,
versus that, and it's kind oflike goes to a childhood story
of the the tortoise versus thehare is like you know what?
What is gonna happen?
Kind of that from thatperspective.
But but there's the initialhook and I would have to kind of
see the video to see kind ofhow it kind of pans out.
But you're seeing, you're,you're being posed a situation

(28:59):
and then it's asking yourselfhow is this situation going to
unfold?
But, he, he in and of himself isjust a natural hook, just based
on his body, physique, the waythat he approaches the camera,
the way that he approaches thecamera, the way that he shows up
on the camera.
That kind of sparks the initialcuriosity to stop the scroll
and then see, well, where isthis going to naturally unfold

(29:20):
to?

Darren Lee (29:21):
And if you look at his business, I'm pretty sure he
has like a coaching program forpersonal branding on the
backend.
Like he has that attention,he's driving it into an option
for people to book calls orwhatnot.
How much do you focus on theback end business before you
approach this right?
So we know contextually let'stake an actual example he's
helping people with fitness andpersonal branding on Instagram.

(29:41):
How much do you think of theoffer before you do the content?

And I can tell you a story as to why I asked you
that in a second too.
So the way that I look at it ispeople are always asking what
is the return on investment ofsocial media, like how do you
make money off of social media?
Can you make money off ofsocial media?

Darren Lee (30:02):
That's a good question.

And the reality of the answer is different from
what most people think, and'sthat what is the size of your
vision?
Like?
I know people with millions offollowers that barely make six
figures.
I know people with millions offollowers that have built
billion dollar companies.
So the reality is is likesocial media is an amazing tool

(30:28):
to drive awareness, buildconnection and you can make a
ton of money, but it'spredicated and dictated by what
is the foundational piece ofyour business.
So I'll give you an example.
A friend of mine, michelle Phan, was one of the original
YouTube beauty influencers andshe built millions of
subscribers, millions of views amonth.

(30:50):
And there's so many beautyinfluencers out there.
Now, what do most beautyinfluencers do for monetization?
Well, they do brand deals.
They go from brand deal to branddeal to brand deal.
There's nothing wrong with that, but that is a real short-term
kind of view on what thepotential of the audience that
you're building.

(31:10):
So Michelle decided with threeof her friends that she's going
to form a company, and shefounded a company called Ipsy,
which was a quarterlysubscription box.
Within three years it was doing$120 million a year in revenue.
At one point it was valued at$800 million.
But she didn't just stop there.
L'oreal came to her one of thebiggest cosmetic companies in

(31:31):
the world and instead of saying,accepting, you know, I'll just
do a brand deal with you.
She's like no, I want toactually partner with you and
create my own cosmetics lines.
And L'Oreal had never done thatin their history.
They would always acquirecompanies.
They would never build themfrom scratch.
But because she had thatforesight, because she had that

(31:53):
vision, she was able to go aftersomething much bigger.
So to your initial question,like yes, you should have a
clear understanding of what yourfoundational offer is or how
you're doing going to begenerating revenue.
But what I really challengepeople to do is dream as big as
humanly possible because yourreturn on investment in social
media, your ability to monetize.

(32:15):
It really comes down to how bigyou're willing to dream, how
big you want to build something.
Now, that is not necessarilyright for everybody, but if you
want to build something massive,well, start thinking like that
from day one.

Darren Lee (32:31):
It's also a time block too, right?
Like, if you're getting intoorganic content, it's so that
you're doing it for a long time,right?
I feel like a lot of guys getinto the space more entrepreneur
mindset and they're looking formore like direct response,
immediate ROI.
But you're in the game for along time, like you've been
creating content since 2005.
I started five years ago and inmany ways, our business has only

(32:51):
been really growing the past 18months.
You know, from going fromsomeone who was creating content
in his bedroom.
Does that make sense?
And where can we get to in fivemore years of that consistent
release of good content, notjust any trash, you know?
So I do think a lot of it isbased on the quality of the
entrepreneur too, like, what didthey want to do?

(33:12):
Where do they want to get to?
Otherwise, you can be justdoing nothing with the content,
right?
I think the worst thing you cando is leave it just going
aimlessly.
You're creating this contentand you're not capturing it for
at least your lead magnets goinginto your newsletter, which
you've done really well as well,right, you have that on the
back of everything.
You have on the front end aswell.

Yeah, it's obviously.
Everything comes down to thequality of the entrepreneur and
the quality of the idea and thebusiness.
And, to your point, we'retalking about organic social
media and that is building anaudience.
It's not direct response.
What most people get wrong withsocial media is your profile is
not your website and your postsare not your ads.
Your job with social media isto build a relationship with an

(33:55):
audience.
It's to get people to know,like and trust you.
And once people know, like andtrust you, they will
automatically want to buy fromyou.
Versus the other approach andthere's nothing wrong with it is
direct response.
Ads is like you.
Just you know you can throwcontent in front of people and
make an offer or, you know, sellsomething directly.
Uh, now, there's limitingnature to that.

(34:16):
Like you can scale a business,but are you going to build a
real following, are you going tobuild a real brand by just
doing that?
And, as you mentioned, withorganic social, it's a long-term
play, you know, and you justlook at the, the upside of the
people.
That master that we were weretalking about Mr Beast earlier.
Mr Beast, you know, spent over10 years building his audience

(34:38):
and the relationship, and theinteresting thing is his
audience grew so big that branddeals he couldn't really do them
anymore because he wasproviding more value than the
brands could afford.
He was generating so many viewsthat brands couldn't afford to
pay him what he was worth.
So what did he do is he builthis own business.
Feastivals is one of thefastest selling chocolate bars

(34:58):
in the world.
It's projected to do $500million in revenue this year.
His company is his overallcompany is valued at $5 billion.
So that's like the power ofbuilding an audience.
He didn't start with directresponse.
He didn't start by trying tosell things.
He started by building thatrelationship and once he had
that relationship, you know thataudience wants to support him.

(35:19):
They want to engage with themand take that next level and
that next approach.

Darren Lee (35:25):
Tell me about scenarios whereby people have,
like, blown up their channel,gone super viral, but then
they're not capitalizing theright way.
They're not.
They don't have, like, let'ssay, any sort of brand equity
being built.
What are some of those examplesyou've seen that maybe they're
blowing up for the wrong reasons.

Well, I think that there's.
There's people that again aregoing viral for the sake of
going viral.
And it's not, like it's notreally correlated to their
expertise or their business, sothat how do you control for that
sorry how do you mean?
How do you control for that?

Darren Lee (35:55):
so, for instance, like, let's say, my, my
background is in podcasting andteaching people, podcasting and
creating content and creatingoffers.
If I have a video of me and mydogs and the dogs go super viral
, I'm bringing in a hundredthousand followers that are not
correlated to my core ICP oranything related to it.
How do I control?
For, like, those events nothappening right, because you

(36:16):
still want value based content,so they'll be able to show my
values, but at the same time, wewant to make sure that we're
not diluting the message.

Yeah Well, I guess the question is what are?
So there's there's adelineation between what you
just said, because there is,once you have the audience and
establish the audience, you canlet them into more of your kind

(36:44):
of personal life and your dogsand your families and things of
that nature.
That reinforces thatrelationship.
But until you get to that pointI would question well, why are
you posting that piece ofcontent?
What is the correlation of thatto what you do?
And I'm not saying you can'tcorrelate it, you can.
But I think in the beginningyou need to build that
relationship with the audienceand, like, anybody can post
videos about their dogs and ifit goes viral, like, what does

(37:05):
that bring into the equation ofyour ecosystem?
Does that really say somethingabout what you do?
Um, what's foundational to whatyou're going to be talking
about in introducing them tothat standpoint?
So I, at least in the beginning,I suggest being kind of more
strategic and methodical aboutkind of what you're posting, why
you're posting it and and howit leads to your end goal.

(37:26):
And then, once you hit that,you know that level of point
where you've establishedyourself, you stab with that
that relationship.
Then you can kind of intertwinethat.
But to be honest, I wouldn'treally worry about that as much.
Like if, if let's just say,that dog video generated
millions of views and a hundredthousand people followed you.

(37:46):
I don't think that they're justfollowing you because that
video, you know, got all thoseviews.
There's something in it thatthat correlated to them wanting
to, to, to follow you as anindividual.
But I don't get caught up toomuch in kind of worrying about
that aspect.
I think that you can always, youknow, work around that, because
one of the kind ofcontroversial things and the

(38:09):
truths and realities about therealities about the world that
we live in today is followersand subscribers don't mean what
they used to mean Meaning.
You know, there's no free wins.
Like, if your content is notdialed in, it's not going to
reach your followers and a lotof the algorithms they don't
want to just seed your contentto followers, they want to seed
it to people beyond youraudience.

(38:30):
So oftentimes I think peopleget too caught up in the
follower number and less on,like, what is your success rate
of each video?
Like, if you focus on thesuccess rate of each video and
the content you're producing,the followers will come.
But if you generate thefollowers and you don't know how
to reach them because yourcontent and story isn't dialed
in, then you're kind of settingyourself up for failure, because

(38:54):
there's a lot of ways you canplay the frequency game and post
five or 10 times a day andgenerate followers, but if each
one is generating 5,000 views,what are you doing?
For when you have thosefollowers, you're not gonna be
even to be able to actuallyreach them because you're not
focusing on how do you become amasterful storyteller.

Darren Lee (39:13):
What do you think about sub-accounts?
So people like Imangaji, lukeBellemeyer, a lot of these guys
created sub-accounts and they'recalled Clipper accounts now and
WAP you know that platform WAPactually incentivize clipping
now.
So creating sub-accounts basedon your favorite influencer and
running a shit ton of trafficinto that and then into the main
account what's your tallprocess on that?

I think it's a great and smart strategy once
you have your strategy in place,Because, like, let's just say
that you do that, but you'relike Iman Ghazi you mentioned
like he's a master atstorytelling, Like he's mastered
that.
So like for him to do thatstrategy adds fuel to the fire
of what he's already doing.

(39:55):
But if you're just using thatas a way to mitigate your
unsuccessful content in your ownchannel I'm not saying it's not
going to add to it or not workat all, but to me I would focus
on, like, how do you become amasterful storyteller?
It's also kind of the concernthat I have with engaging.
There's an over-reliance ofbrands and companies and

(40:17):
influencers.
I did the first influencercampaign in 2006 for a movie, so
I've kind of seen the ebbs andflows and the evolution of it.
And don't get me wronginfluencers are a great asset if
you know how to run thecampaigns properly.
But I think brands areover-reliant on them because
they can't figure out organicsocial themselves and that's why
they keep relying on them.

Darren Lee (40:38):
So question for you on that would you suggest brands
to be building based on thefounder, founder-led brand or
more of the company level?
It?

depends, because it's like is it easier to build
off a founder?
Yes, but you don't want tobuild off a founder.
If the founder doesn't want todo it Like, if they don't want
to create content, they don'twant to be the face of it, it's
going to come off.
You know it's going to come offin the content.
It's going to come offinauthentically.
But you can look at otherexamples like Duolingo killed it
in terms of the um, the mascotthat they did, and they're the

(41:11):
largest language learning app inthe world.
So in addition is like whathappens if the founder leaves or
gets sick or things of thatnature?
Founder-led brands can beextremely successful in terms of
social media and they can becomplete failures.
Again, can, again, you can haveother ways of building the

(41:34):
brand through social media.
It just really comes down tothe execution side of it.

Darren Lee (41:38):
I guess what would be your advice there?
Would you advise people to kindof because everyone, if you're
bad at something, you're goingto hit it, but then you get good
at it and you get better at it,right.
So would you advise, likefounders, to start their
marketing for their business asthey're launching their business
or as they're growing, to tryit from their perspective and
then try 100%.
I would try it, yeah.

But the question is why do you hate it?
And I would also ask.
The question is what thingshave you gotten good at that you
hated.
You know like-.
That's what I mean, you know,like, how often do you get good
at something where you just hateit?
Like, sometimes success leadsto liking to something, but most
times it doesn't.
Now, I think some people hateit because of the concept of

(42:22):
being in front of people, notfeeling comfortable, being on
camera or in front of a lot ofpeople.
That, I think, is more of alimiting belief that you should
get to the bottom of, like, whatis actually causing that,
because, like, that could besome hidden childhood trauma or
something that is preventingthat level of success.
But there was another thingthat, um, that was probably kind

(42:43):
of one of the biggest eyeopeners in my career.
So when I was, you know, when Iwas starting off my career, uh,
working in the entertainmentindustry, I had a partnership
with MTV and they wereintroducing me to to different
kind of celebrities andmusicians and things, and at the
time I was in kind of thatentertainment bubble and that
entertainment ecosystem and I Ithought that everything was

(43:06):
talent-based, like the mosttalented people rise to the top.
But what I found was there wasthis big paradigm shift and it
was when I got introduced toTaylor Swift and started working
with her, and one of the thingsthat people don't realize about
Taylor Swift is she's thereason for success.

(43:26):
And one of the most brilliantthings that she did is she
understood that social media wasnot a one-to-many platform.
It was a one-to-one platformBecause, if you think about when
you are consuming content onsocial media, you're sitting by
yourself, you're on your bed,you're on the couch, on the
train, on the bus and things ofthat nature.
So she understood better thananybody of fostering that

(43:47):
one-to-one relationship with herfans.
And don't get me wrong, tayloris a massive talent, but her
understanding of cultivatingthat one-to-one interaction with
fans allowed her to explode tothe highest levels.
Where you have these Swiftiesand you have these people that
will turn out and support her inanything that she does that

(44:08):
even somebody like a Beyonce ora Rihanna or some of these other
big superstars don't have, herfans will do anything for her,
will support her in any way andthat's why she's.
I don't know what she's at thispoint, but last year she did
over a billion dollars inconcert sales.
She's going to be one of thehighest grossing musicians of
all time because she understoodthat dynamic.

(44:28):
So if you're struggling to kindof be like I don't feel
comfortable speaking to a lot ofpeople or being in front of the
camera.
Well, let's just simplify itwhen you step foot in front of
that camera, just pretend you'retalking to one person, just
build that connection with oneperson, and that will take a lot
of the pressure off for you, tokind of allow you to go to that

(44:50):
next step and get thoserepetitions in and get better
and better and better at it.

Darren Lee (44:54):
It's like writing too right.
Even I wrote just before hecame here.
I was writing to one specificperson in mind and that allowed
my writing to be such morefluent.
Just come easy, and it's thesame as speaking.
I think people think YouTube isthis platform that they're
speaking to an audience theentire time, which, if you have
one avatar in mind, it justmakes things a thousand times
easier.
And then, ideally, that's yourICP and then, ideally, that

(45:20):
person is a proxy for how manyother people?
A thousand times, a thousandmore people.
I saw Leila Hormozy talk aboutthis, where she said that she
didn't want to create content.
Same with Alex.
Actually, alex didn't want tocreate content.
Same with alex actually, alexdidn't want to create content,
any of that, but the price ofnot creating content was so much
greater, basically, and theyjust came to that realization.
I have to get comfortable withbeing on camera.
I have to get good at this.

(45:41):
So what's your advice?
People are there, right,because you've been doing this
since 2005.
I've been doing this since 2020.
We're comfortable on camera forthe most part.
How would you frame that in thebeginning for people?

Well, again, I think that I kind of look at it
from a human behavior and humanpsychology standpoint.
Is, I almost start with, whatis the underlying reason you
feel uncomfortable?
What is the underlying reasonthat you hate it?
Because you may be able tounlock something, versus trying
kind of like blunt force yourway through it.
I think some people can do that, but a lot of people will try

(46:16):
the blunt force way and justlike roll up your sleeves and
force yourself to do it andthey'll just burn themselves out
, so that, like what you hadmentioned about the Hermoses,
like they had a larger visionfor what they wanted to achieve
and they kept that larger visionin mind.
And you know, from a, you askyourself, from a scale of one to
10, with 10 being the highest,like how motivated are you to

(46:38):
reach that end goal?
And you can leverage thatmotivation to push through.
Like that is one way.
But I kind of look at it from apsychology perspective of like
what?
Where are these?
Where are these limitingbeliefs or where is this
discomfort coming from?
Because I think if you cansolve those underlying aspects,

(47:00):
I think it's just going to makeyou a stronger entrepreneur or
stronger business owner, justbeyond that level of
communicating on camera.

Darren Lee (47:08):
I'm just taking my examples.
So I've recorded 300 podcastsand it was around 200 in.
I was thinking like, why am Inot getting better at delivering
my message?
And this is when I went intopublic speaking.
And then I started doing a bitof stage work and online
workshops and in-personworkshops and I knew it was like
that one change I could makethat would make me 10 times

(47:30):
better and have 10 times more ofan impact.
So it was me thinking well,where do I want to be in five
years?
I want to be on stages.
I want to be in very largestages.
I want my podcast to keep ongrowing, my impact keep on
growing.
I need to make this change backhere and it's funny because it's
problem awareness I wasn'treally aware that I had a
problem, maybe a small bit, butit was until I had to shine a

(47:51):
light on it to say, okay, I canimprove this way, I can become
more comfortable, I can relax, Ihave the receipts, I have the
experience, I can come andactually enjoy it more.
Right, because a big part ofcontent is actually enjoying it
and saying that I can do thisfor a long time, because I think
that's where people burn out.
Then They'll say they're burntout, but they're probably just
hating their life.

Yeah, who knows what they're hating, and that's
why I'm kind of hesitant to justsay push through it.

Darren Lee (48:17):
Exactly yeah.

Because, like you said, it took 200 podcasts then
to find that kind of hidden.

Darren Lee (48:22):
Yeah, it was kind of like I have many podcasts that
have blown up, so this is quiteinteresting because I have some
podcasts that have blown up aton and then I have some that
are smaller, and it's usuallynot to do with me, right, it's
obviously some guest dependentand so on, but there's levels of
skill and ability that I needto get better on straight up,
and I think it's giving myselfthe permission to one, improve

(48:43):
and then two, just have more fun, like be it, and then I can do
this end forever yeah, there'snot many podcasts that have got
the 300 yeah, and that's whereit's just like my, how I've
lived my entire career in myentire life is go get.

The help that you need is like, um, like you just
talk about public speaking.
Before I ever stepped foot onstage for the first time, I
hired a speaking trainer andhelped me craft my keynote work
on my delivery and things ofthat nature, and when I go to
conferences you can totally telleven if they're really smart
the people that are not trainedbecause they, they, they just

(49:18):
drone out the audience and likethey run over time, um, and
things of that nature.
The same thing with like the thechallenge before is like if
you're stuck with notunderstanding, kind of like
what's holding you back, like goto therapy, get advice, get you
know some type of soundingboard.
Same thing that I always advisein social media is like, if you

(49:42):
have like, because we work withbusiness professionals that have
a successful business but havezero social media experience,
like we literally worked with ahand doctor zero views, zero
followers but she was successful, like in her practice, and if
she went on her own she may havenever learned it or it may have
taken her five or ten years,but within you know, six months

(50:05):
she went from zero to you know,750,000 followers.
She has 30 videos, over 1million views.
She got a book deal, a podcastdeal and a reality TV show deal
because you had the rightguidance you can point out to
what you were talking about islike these aspects that you may
be lacking, that you just won'trealize it, like you've got to
kind of generate that level ofawareness, and that's like,

(50:26):
literally, I built my businesslike just taking every dollar I
earned and putting it back intolearning, to growing, to finding
advisors, to finding teachers,to finding strategists, to
hiring smart people and thingsof that nature.
And you know, I think that themore that you can invest in your
learning, the more that you caninvest in your own growth,
ultimately, you're going to findthe answers you know quicker

(50:47):
and scale faster and even theanswers that you don't even know
.

Darren Lee (50:50):
You're looking for it's 100 it's what you don't,
it's what you don't know.
Like I generally go around twoto three masterminds a year and
I'm like I'm going to one injune and I'm speaking at two in
june, and I'll just pick thingsup that are just so adjacent to
why I'm there, like I've gone tomasterminds before that are
just so adjacent to why I'mthere, like I've gone to
masterminds before that arebusiness related and I was
getting accounting advice and Iknew what I was doing over here.

(51:11):
So it's the value of thefeedback is not necessarily in
the direct.
What you're going to get.
It's all the subtle nuancesaround the corner and even
things like you can learn how tobuild your business a better
way.
If you're in a good coachingprogram, you're like ah, I like
that they use Airtable, I don'tlike that they don't do this.
You know, does that make sense?
It makes you just morewell-rounded, it's more
experience.

It's basically TLD or you know.
Yeah, I mean when I, you know,at one point I was, you know,
stuck in my career, like I wasbusy working for other companies
and helping people behind thescenes be really successful
whether it was musicians likeTaylor Swift or companies like
MTV or Viacom or Skechers and Iwanted to make that inflection
point is like I want to haveimpact in the world.

(51:57):
I want to share information,not just with these individual
people, but with everybody, sothat their voices could be heard
, because I fundamentallybelieve there's people all over
the world that can transform itin a positive way.
They just need the kind of theguidance, the strategy to level
up on their skill sets to makethat happen.
So I was a big fan of TimFerriss and the five-hour work

(52:21):
week.
I thought it was like anamazing hook and I was like I
want to create a book, like Iwant to do what Tim Ferriss did.
But I had a lot of self-doubt,like I was just like who am I?
I've never written a book.
It's probably going to suck.
Like I'm not a writer.
Like who am I to share thisinformation?
What if this thing fails?
Like all these limiting beliefsthat I was telling myself and I

(52:47):
just said you know what Screwthis?
I'm just going to hire somebodythat has written 20 books before
to help me shape it, to guideme, to show me how to take all
of my information, my experience, my skill sets and apply it in
this format of a book.
And because I was willing totake that step, willing to take
that action at the time, it wascostly for me to do that.
I invested a good chunk of themoney that I had in the bank to

(53:07):
make that happen.
But because I was willing totake that action At the time, it
was costly for me to do that,like, I invested a good chunk of
the money that I had in thebank to make that happen.
But because I was willing totake that step.
You know that first book was 1million followers and it became
an international best seller andit opened up all of these doors
.
But if I hadn't kind of likesought that guidance and kind of
tried to mitigate the learningcurve that I had, maybe I would
have published the book, but itprobably was going to be garbage

(53:29):
, not because the informationwasn't there, but the way that
you kind of shape it and deliverit.

Darren Lee (53:34):
I'm thinking of even my experience when we built the
agency which became the mediacompany.
It was like four years and it'sstill doing really well, Like
it's a multiple seven figurebusiness on its own.
But I had to chew glass Whereaswe went through the education
piece, I had met my James Kempon my podcast and he'd given me
some advice and then I had justpaid for his advice and we had

(53:55):
done four years where I did inthe past business in around 60
days, genuinely 60 days, Cause Iwas like how do I do this?
Like this, perfect, done, Okay,fantastic.
Yes, I'd learned all thatknowledge over the years and the
compounded effect of being inthe game, but it was quite
literally a 60-day process.
I was like, okay, we're up andrunning, We've got customers,

(54:15):
let's go.
And I think about doing thatmyself.
I would have probably failedright, Because with
customer-related businesses,there's so much people you need
for the velocity and so on andso forth, so it's a big unlock.
One need for the velocity andso on and so forth, so it's a
big unlock.
One thing I want to ask youthere was almost when someone,
it's like almost anti-haloeffect when someone has done so
much in one domain.
When they move into content,they almost think it's going to

(54:37):
be easy, right.
They think like oh, like I'm adoctor, this should be easy.
How do you manage expectations?
I have a lot of clients likethis that are super successful.

They will be really good at content but they
think that it's easier than whatit is.
Well, honestly, like somebodylike that, like a doctor, I
think has a little bit moreperspective, because I just say,
well, how long did it take youto master being a doctor, or
being a lawyer, or?

Darren Lee (54:58):
being an accountant.

How many nuances are there between a great doctor
or a great lawyer and a poordoctor or poor lawyer?
We cut the learning curve downbecause we've spent 10,000 hours
researching this stuff.
I've spent 20 years in thisspace.
So we can create the blueprintto cut that learning curve by
80% or 90%, but ultimately youneed to show up.

(55:24):
I think that a lot of peoplewill hire a social media manager
or will hire a team or hirelike an editor or an agency and
like, if the individual doesn'tat least understand it, like,
how are you going to hire theright person?
And that's where I see a lot oftimes is you know, you'll hire

(55:44):
an editor, you'll hire avideographer, you'll hire a
social media manager.
Ensure they may have years andyears of experience, but that
doesn't mean they understand thefine nuances of what it takes
to make that jump into that top1%.
So what I always, you know,recommend is at least try and
understand the baseline yourself.
And yes, it's typically.
Anything is typically morechallenging than what you get

(56:07):
into it.
But going back to what we weretalking about earlier, like how
much of a priority is this foryou?
On a scale of one to 10?
What is this going to lead toand how important is that thing
it's going to lead to?
And if that thing that you'retrying to lead to is super
important, you're more likely tostick it out and do it.
If that thing is not, thatfoundation isn't there and it's
not super important, then yeah,you're probably not going to

(56:29):
stick around.
But it's like in today's world,with 5 billion people on these
platforms, there's no free wins,there's no real shortcuts and
even if you like, let's just sayyou generate a million
followers in the first sixmonths like, you still need to
cultivate that relationship withthat audience for years to come
.

Darren Lee (56:45):
So, it needs to be something that you're invested
in the long term for, and thatthere's so much coming up for me
when I hear this, because thisis the ROI argument.
Right, it's people that getinto the space.
I'm not seeing an ROI.
It's been 60 days, 90 days.
How do you manage that?
As a result, because I it'sstill going to cost you, right,

(57:12):
even the equipment.
I actually have a studio inBali that I built, dude.
The studio has broken my heart.
It cost me like 20K to buildjust equipment.
The equipment breaks just sofickle, Whereas I go to a studio
got to pay for a studio.
So there's always going to becost involved.
There's always investmentinvolved.
How do you manage the ROIexpectation of content?

Well, there's a few things as we talked about
earlier.
You know, the ROI is going tobe dictated by how strong the
foundation of your business is.

Darren Lee (57:36):
How much?

can it scale?
In addition to like well, whatis the cost if you don't do it?
So if you're going to stop,well, what is the ultimate you
know outcome that you're goingfor?
We've had clients that withinsix months they're making six or
seven figures off of socialmedia.
There's some clients that don'tdo that don't make any money

(57:57):
because they need to kind oflike have that one thing click
and once that one thing clicks,it skyrockets.
But again, it really comes downto like how much are you
willing to put into this from awork perspective?
How important is this?
Do you actually believe thatsocial media works in terms of,
you know, driving growth in yourbusiness?

(58:17):
If you don't believe it, justdon't do it, because if you
don't believe it, you're gonnabring that disbelief into the
process, you're gonna bring itinto when you're sitting in
front of the camera and they'reultimately going to get
frustrated with it and quit.
But if you believe in it, likeyou know, even with our business
, like you know we guaranteethat you're going to generate a

(58:38):
million views in 120 days.
Otherwise, we'll keep workingwith you for free until you do,
and that's just the baseline.
Like I just had somebody useour.
A cartoonist, use our model andjust hit a billion views.
We just gave him a billion viewaward.
Like I've had two or threeclients that generated over a
billion views.
The process works, like becauseit's pure storytelling and if

(58:59):
you're committed to that, ifyou're committed to perfecting,
you know your story, throughwhat we talked about in terms of
a format, it will succeed,whether it happens.
I can't guarantee it's going tohappen in two weeks, four weeks
, you know a few months or ayear, because it has to.
It has to, you know, take itscourse in terms of what you put

(59:19):
into it.
But it really comes down towhat is your motivation.
Why are you doing this?
Like, if you're trying to buildsomething big and you believe
that social media can help youto do it, then stick with it.
It's the same thing as, like wetalked you talked about an
example with a doctor.
Like I don't even know, likehow many years does somebody
have to go through medicalschool?
And like training before theyactually become a real doctor?
I think it's gotta be like 10years or something.

(59:42):
Like you're willing to spend 10years.
Like you're willing to spend 10years but you're not willing to
spend like a year in socialmedia.
Well then, why are you doing it?

Darren Lee (59:50):
Like, a lot of this is top six inches, a lot of it's
psychology, a lot of it'slimiting beliefs.

A hundred percent.

Darren Lee (59:55):
Because I think you and I both don't struggle with
action.
For me there's no alternative.
I'm like got to make this thingwork, got to make the short
film work, got to make the shortform work, got to make the post
work.
So I'll do the thing I need todo to get the result that I want
to get, whereas I feel likepeople that put their hands up
and complain they're just notthere yet, they haven't done the
development.
It's kind of like when you,when you go into the business

(01:00:17):
world, you actually have to do alot of personal development to
develop as a person to be ableto attract the clients that you
want.
You have to do that development, otherwise your business won't
grow, you won't become thatperson.
Do you manage thoseexpectations when people join
your world?
Do you bring them through that?

Brendan Kane (01:00:37):
Just from a teaching perspective, I'd love
to learn I mean we do to thesubject matter or the expertise
you're bringing to the table.
Oftentimes you're dealing withlimiting beliefs, past traumas

(01:00:58):
and things that are beingprojected onto your work
together.
That's typically where theissues come about and there's
only so much we can do Like wecan't be your therapist in a way
, like we try and help as muchas possible.
But that is, you know, a realissue where these projections
come onto the work together,where it has nothing to do with

(01:01:20):
you as an individual or theservice you're offering.
You know it has to do withsomething else that they're
dealing with in their life or oror in their past.
But yeah, we try, like we'revery honest and transparent,
like and again, like why weoffer like a guarantee of a
million views in 120 daysbecause we love helping clients

(01:01:42):
that are putting in the work andthat are successful.
Like we love nothing more thanseeing somebody work really hard
and trying to grow theirbusiness.
And we will support you as longas we see like you're a true
partner and like you're puttingin the work, like that's
something we love.
Like the challenge and I'm sureyou've probably seen it with
clients you work with is like ifthey're not going to do the

(01:02:03):
work, if they're not going to doanything and just point the
finger and blame on other people, there's only so much you can
help them, not just in thatcontext but as a human being.

Darren Lee (01:02:11):
Sinking ship effectively.
I love your perspective on it,though, because you're so right
there's only so much you can doas the provider, and this is
actually why I love coaching,because you'll find this well,
I'll look, our business hasgrown so much over the past
couple of years, but our agencyclients still view us, look down

(01:02:31):
on us.
It's kind of a weird dynamic,and he said well, you do a
service to them, so you are aservant of them, whereas our
coaching clients we likeliberate them, we teach them, we
give them the ability to thinkfor themselves, to create their
own content and build their ownbusiness.
The dynamic is different and,as a result, like, the mindset
is different.
So I think that's why I askedyou the mindset side, because a
big part of our coaching isgetting people to get over their

(01:02:53):
own limiting beliefs, whereasin the agency we just do the
content right, so they haven'tdone the development.
It's a very interestingobservation.

Yeah, even in my own business and the struggles
of building a business andrunning a business, when
something, when something goeswrong, if we hired the right
person, somebody is notdelivering, um, you know we, we
spent about a bunch of money onsomething and it didn't work.
You know, at a macro level, Itry and tie it back to what did

(01:03:21):
I do wrong?
You know what, what?
What was it that attracted meto this opportunity or this
person that ultimately didn'tsucceed?
What did I miss in that process?
You know I invest over sixfigures a year in my personal.
You know growth and development, because I know all of these
things as an individual projectonto the business, carry over to

(01:03:44):
the business, carry over to thework that you do, how you show
up.
So, again, I just think it's socritically important that you
invest in yourself, you takeownership in yourself of things
working or not working, so thatyou can improve.
And I think that a lot of thatis lost sight in kind of whether
it's social media or scalingany type of businesses is how

(01:04:07):
are you contributing to thesuccess or failure of what
you're doing?
And taking that, that ownership.
And once you take thatownership, it's very liberating,
like, because then you controlyour destiny, like you control
the, the ultimate outcome of ofhow successful you can be that's
super interesting it's been.

It's big unlocked for me the the amount of work
you've done on yourself.
It's a huge observation I'vemade.
I didn't realize that you'velike literally done this much
coaching yourself and a lot ofthe internal work.
What do you think was a driverfor that?
What was a big contributor foryou to be like, damn, I need to,
I need to put my trust in otherpeople like release, control,
invest and on, because that initself is a skill.

I like, I mean, I just love the process of
learning, I love the process ofgrowing.
I just don't want to becomplacent.
You know there's a lot of, youknow, trauma that I carried over
from young childhood, of beingin a situation where you know
there was abusive relationshipsthat kind of diminished my
self-worth in a lot of ways.
That held me back from kind ofviewing myself in kind of a

(01:05:14):
successful light or certainlight.
And you know, when you spendyears and years and years of
people telling you you're notgood enough, you know, then,
that you know me unlock theability?
well, if I'm not, how do Ibecome better?
And it's that kind ofreoccurring pattern of like how
do I keep improving to myself,not to prove it to other people,

(01:05:37):
but proving it to myself?
And that is a part of thepattern that I've repeated, you
know, with, and you know I'veknocked out a lot of those
patterns, but I still continueto want to kind of operate at
the highest possible levelbecause, like to me, like the
work that we do, we can havetremendous impact, we can help a
lot of people.
And, like we have one life, youknow to live, and like you know

(01:06:00):
that time is fleeting and Ijust want to maximize the full
potential of what I can achieve,in that you know time, that
time frame, not necessarilytrying to compare myself to
other people or having specificbenchmarks of what other people
have done, but just what is myhighest potential and how can I
show up at the highest level forthe people that we serve in the
work that we do?

I think it's very similar to my position, which
was I got to a certain point onmy own and then realized well,
why is it not working?
It's because I was viewingmyself in the wrong lens and, as
a result, I wasn't actuallydoing the internal work and that
was limiting my potential.
And when I started to do that,it put me in a better position
to not compete with other people, but then to say, okay, this is
the unrealized potential if Idon't do it.

(01:06:41):
So yeah I to say a big thankyou, sir.

yeah, this was amazing, man.
I feel like this was a.
I feel like this touch adifferent angle, even on you
personally as well, that a lotof people may not have even seen
before.
So a big thank you, man.
Yeah, my pleasure.
Thanks for having me awesomeman.
Yeah, thank you so much.

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#297 Bredan Kane - The Secret to Making Viral Content That Actually Sells

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#297 Bredan Kane - The Secret to Making Viral Content That Actually Sells