#301 Kieran Drew - Why Writing is the Most Valuable Skill for Entrepreneurs in 2025 - Kickoff Sessions

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kiernan Drew (00:00):
How can anyone use writing to grow their business
in 2025?

Darren Lee (00:04):
I think a lot of people don't appreciate when
we're writing.
We've got reach, relationshipsand revenue, and so I think
people, I've come to realizerecently that freedom is not
like a lack of commitments, it'sbeing able to commit to the
thing you love.

If you're in that bracket and you don't know what
you're going to do, you have tojust do something.

Darren Lee (00:20):
Someone would say you know the audience.
First approach is stupidbecause you haven't got anything
to sell.
But most people that I've spoketo don't know what they want to
do.
Why do you think people quit?

on those things.
All right, man, let's kick off.
So how can anyone use writingto grow their business in 2025?

Darren Lee (00:40):
Sure, well, we're writing and we're creating
content right, and so I think alot of people don't appreciate
when we're writing.
We've got reach, relationshipsand revenue, and so I think
people you want to just startwriting on social media to start
, ie, attracting an audience.
Then we get people onto anemail list where it's kind of
story-driven writing and on theback of that you know like

(01:02):
you're talking about the thingthat you're good at, talking
about your challenges, whateveryou're building, and you're
attracting attention for yourbusiness from there.
So if it's done for you or donewith you or do it yourself, um,
it all kind of just based onyou know, sharing your ideas
online, attracting people whofeel the same and then solving
their shared problems what doyou think about building an
audience first, before you buildan offer?

(01:24):
I'm a big fan of the audiencefirst approach.
Yeah, I mean, I think you cankind of skin a cat both ways,
right For sure.
And someone will say theaudience first approach is
stupid because you haven't gotanything to sell.
But most people that I've spoketo don't know what they want to
do, right, like they've falleninto a career that they want to
build around.
And so I always say if you'renot sure what offer you want,

(01:46):
start by building your brand.
Yeah, because that would teachyou marketing, that would teach
you copywriting, teach you a lotabout bloody persistence as
well, and then from there peoplewill tell you their problems.
So you know, you don't have tokind of sit there worrying about
what am I going to build?
Like, if you can attract a goodrelationship with a few people,
uh, you can just start asking,you know, and then start from
that dude.

Uh, even in my instance, right.
So I, if you, if you do knowwhat you want to build,
obviously you have that ideafirst and you write it.
But taking my example, Istarted in 2020.
I was working in finance.
I hated my fucking life.
I needed a way out.
I'd built a bunch of businesses.
They all went to zero.
It was time to slow down,listen and learn.
Yeah, so I was just putting apodcast man.
Yeah, they weren't generatingrevenue, but I was just getting

(02:27):
better at not being a potatotalking on internet, yeah you
know and it's.
It took me like two years tofigure out how to actually
record still not make money.
But I mean, what's thealternative?
The alternative is to donothing.
So it's kind of like doingsomething.
Like, of course, if you knowyour offer is and you and you've
been, uh, in a industry for somany years and you're ready to

(02:48):
sell something for that, yeah,fair enough, you might have to
offer first, but I feel like ifyou're in that bracket and you
don't know what you're going todo, you have to just do
something yeah, to get moving.

Darren Lee (02:58):
There's a good um expression nothing comes from
nothing and just a reminder thatlike I mean my mistake when I
was a dentist man, like I wasdoing everything except the work
.
So you know, you're listeningto all these podcasts, you're
reading all these books for liketwo, three years and like just
dreaming about doing something,and then you just don't know
what to do.
So you don't do anything at alland it's actually just taking

(03:19):
that first step right, like I've.
My journey has been so like Iwas going down a completely
different way to where we arenow, but the path reveals itself
the more you walk, and so Ialways remember.
Remember like nothing comesfrom nothing, like just get
going and like you'll figure itout as you're moving.

Double down on that if you don't mind.
So how did you?
How did you know that you're onthe right path?

Darren Lee (03:40):
Sure, I'll tell you what I did.
So the first thing I was like adentist, and with dentistry
it's a very mechanical job andso you're just drilling and
filling, right.
And there was no creativity andI was like I really I feel like
I'm missing something here,because the more money I was
making, the more unhappy I wasbecoming.
And so I was like, well, let'skind of just start exploring

(04:00):
your curiosity.
And the first thing I did wasteach myself how to produce
techno music.
No way I was like that soundsfun, right, and like I would go
in the weekend.
I would go like just learninghow to produce, and I was like
the whole time would disappear,which is the first taste of flow
, the only thing with technomusic like I sucked right, I'm
not good at music, uh, didn'thave like the ear for it, uh.
But I then got the creative bug.

(04:21):
I was like, oh, this creatingthing is really fun.
And so when COVID hit, I waslike what would be the coolest
job in the world if money wasn'treal.
Because it was money.
It's like the fear around that,like, oh, it's not going to
work.
And I landed on stand-up comedy.
It turns out I'm not very funny.
The only people that heard myjokes were my girlfriend and my
hairbrush.
And as COVID started ending, Iwas going back to treat my

(04:42):
patients.
I was like hell man, I don'twant to be a stand-up comic,
even though, where we are rightnow, I don't want to go to clubs
every night.
I like a better nine.
I'm an introverted writer Well,not a writer at the time but
when I started to think I waslike, well, why is this so fun?
It was the writing and the fourhours every stories.

(05:06):
I was like, oh shit, like thatis amazing.
And so then you just started tofollow the energy right, and
I've been doing that ever since.
So I like to work in 90 daysprints and always just asking
it what went well, what went tohell, what could we do better
next time?
And it's kind of like a snakeshedding its skin, you know, and
it gets closer and closer tothe thing that you want, just by
following the joy we move anyfurther.

I have one short question to ask you have you
been enjoying these episodes sofar?
Because, if you have, I wouldtruly appreciate it if you
subscribe to the channel to helpmore business owners grow their
online business.
Today, I feel like a lot ofpeople don't do the refinement.
You know they're moving forwardor they could be making
progress, but they're notactually slowing down to refine.
When you mentioned about kindof flow and just actually moving

(05:45):
, like doing something that youforget.
You forget time, right, it'sinteresting because even we're
in london, right, I feel like alot of people have that, but
they don't pursue it becausethey fear that it's like unknown
and what they're known is kindof like discomfort.
Okay, let me give an example.
Let's say you're a fuckingKelly and she works in finance

(06:07):
and she's in accounting.
She knows what it feels like toget up and go work for KPMG
every day.
She knows like the feeling oflike just average lifestyle and
she doesn't enjoy it.
But then when she doessomething else, like painting,
it lights her up, but it'sunknown to her and then
therefore, instead of followingthat, she slows down on that,

(06:28):
and I think that that wasactually the essence of when I
was younger too, or even when Istarted getting into my podcast,
I kind of felt, okay, it'sactually interesting.
I always was following down mypath when I started my podcast,
but in previous businessesthat's something that held me
back.
Why do you think people quit onthose things?

Darren Lee (06:44):
why they quit or why they don't follow why did?

why did?
Why did they quit on it?
Because they obviously enjoy it, right?
This is the whole thing.
Like you enjoy it yeah why notpursue it?

Darren Lee (06:55):
I think it's because we're it's where you're getting
validation from.
I think you know, like whenyou're, let's say, you're doing
art and it lights you up, butthen when you start thinking
about, oh, maybe, maybe I shoulddo that more, it's like how am
I going to get paid for this?
You know, I'm not very good atit, so people are going to judge
me for doing it.
And then you've always got twopaths right.

(07:15):
You've got the path like it'sfear-based, where it's like it's
the scary thing or what yousaid, and it's so easy to keep
doubling down on what you knowbecause it's comfortable.
And then you just get busy, youget distracted, you go deeper
and deeper.

(07:35):
I can say, like when I was adentist, I knew I hated my job.
Within like the first year Iwas like, man, this is not cool
and yeah, I was doing it.
I was like, oh, what do I do?
It's like let's go do a diplomain it and you just go further
and further.
And then, like let's go do adiploma in it and you just go
further and further.
And then, like I don't know,you just start, you begin to
persuade yourself.
It's a bit of a silly pipedream to do something that you
love, and then you.
It depends if, like you'reexposed to the right kind of

(07:56):
information.
But in hindsight, I just didn'tknow about the internet.

Yeah, because, because yes 20 years ago, it was
a silly pipe dream to do whatyou want, especially to be a
writer.
Right for sure, the concept ofbeing a writer was known to not
make money, right you're eithera best-selling author or living
in your mum's basement and evenif you're a best-selling author,
like, how much money are youactually making?
right, because at the end of theday, even what you've done is

(08:21):
usually the back end of writing.
It's the same with podcasting.
So, for context, I always saythat I'm not a creator.
I know that you say the same aswell.
You're not a content creator,but I'm a business owner who
uses content and I think thatthe traditional way of writing
doesn't make money of justwriting words, same with the
traditional way of podcastingJust recording doesn't make
money.
Right, we're not in a frickingAdSense game, but there's a

(08:43):
backend opportunity that is onlyexploding.
But if you think about writerslike James Clear and so on, I
know he's made money from thebook itself, but in theory, you
know he speaks at Google.
It's like a hundred K, you know, for like a half a day, right.
So I think those things didexist, but now it's like been

(09:05):
amplified.
Yeah, for sure, but it goesback to getting the message
correct and having that messagecorrect.
So how does someone have thatright?
So you have experience or youmay not have experience.
How do you articulate yourmessage online and how do you
position yourself online,because the reps that you've put
in has been hundreds ofthousands?

Darren Lee (09:18):
Yeah, well, I think that's the the answer yeah it's
reps um at least when I'mchatting to newer writers.
I mean, you, even now, you'rekind of focused on the end
result, like being perfect, andyou don't appreciate that, like,
everything about writing oreverything about business is
it's not a, um, sort of one-timedecision, it's an evolution,
right.
So you need to be out thereputting your ideas out into the

(09:40):
world and paying attention tofeedback, and so that's why I
think writing is the best skillin the world for an entrepreneur
, because it's not, it's notjust words on the page, it's not
just creating content, you'rethinking.
And that's why it's so hard,because when you start, your
message is scrambled.
I don't know what you're saying, I don't know who you're
talking to, you don't know howto communicate, how to basically
persuade people.

(10:00):
The more you write, the cleareryou think, and the clearer you
think, the clearer you write.
And the cool bit with writing Imean, like you said, um, the
idea of like a well-paid writeris quite a new thing, but the
idea of a writer is one of theoldest professions in the world,
right, like it's always beenthe best signal of authority,
and so it's a really coolcombination that's going on now

(10:21):
because, uh, even whilst we'redoing video and stuff, and the
internet is built on words, andso if you get good at writing by
putting in the wraps, you know,and just by thinking on paper
and just seeing what's comingout and refining your ideas over
and over, it's kind of like acheat code to getting to your
top of your niche, right?
Uh, because there's a lot ofvideo creators, there's not that
many writers, and but I don'tknow if I find anyone that can

(10:42):
write, regardless of niche.
I'm always reading because it'sa lot of video creators,
there's not that many writers,but I don't know if I find
anyone that can write,regardless of niche.
I'm always reading because it'slike you know what you're
talking about.

Interesting.
And also there's a you saidabout the refinement and how it
should be sloppy.
Yesterday I put out a post, mypodcast with Roy Sutherland, and
in the second line I forgot aword and I posted it.
And I looked at the post as Iposted it and I said, well, it
doesn't make sense.

(11:10):
The second line you clearlyknow there's a word missing, but
at least you know it's not AI.
Yeah, sure.
And I was like it's probablybetter off and I just fucking
left it and it still got like5,000 impressions, got like 120
likes, and I was like like youknow what?
Fuck it like it's a, it looksmore well.
It obviously looks more realbecause there's a word missing
and I missed the word wit.
I left the word wit out and Isaid, okay, fuck it, it's more

(11:35):
real.
Someone looks at it like, ohwell, it wasn't written with AI
and I think that's a veryimportant point, because my
speech has come from my writing,and what I didn't tell you
earlier was the reason why Istarted a podcast was because
I'm dyslexic.
Okay, I was afraid to writeonline even though I wanted to,
because I was afraid of whatpeople would say and through my
podcast, I had to write anywayand to become a better speaker.

(11:58):
Writing enabled that.
Yeah, and I think that's abeautiful part, which is, if it
is scrappy and messy, at leastit's giving you a positive
feedback loop yeah, definitelyit's crazy man and I'm all for
the typo stuff.

Darren Lee (12:10):
Like my mom still texts me, she reads all my
emails and she's always like,hey, you've missed a word here
or you spelled that wrong.
And I'm like, look, I'm puttingout so much work here, there's
gonna be mistakes, but, um,people are attracted to the
rough edges.
You know, like it's kind ofnice to see when people are
screwing up and like if you canat least be humble enough to
like put your hands up and belike, yeah, it was an error not

(12:31):
deleting it and all that stuff.

So what do you think you've grown so much on
Twitter?

Darren Lee (12:38):
I mean there's an element of luck.
I mean I always try to likepoint that out to people.
You know I started writing inCOVID and so there was that
trajectory.
But I think the other side atleast for my brand we've been
very I've been very um open andhonest about the journey.
Uh, like, I have told a lot ofstories.

(12:58):
Um, I have basically built mywhole brand by screwing up in
public and sharing how it goes,and I think people have been
really drawn to that.
Um, I just always find itfascinating how writing is
you're kind of puttingrelationships at scale and if
you're really writing to oneperson and like genuinely trying
to give as much as you can, uh,in both value but also like

(13:19):
entertainment, um, it pays off.
So I mean, at the start I thinkI gave away 12 free video
courses.
Obviously, we were writingevery day loads of emails just
giving, giving, giving, giving.
And then it just started takingoff when I started taking risks
, you know, because I think it'sa brutal truth, but, like most

(13:41):
writers, fail because they'renot interesting enough.
No one's interested in adisgruntled dentist.
It doesn't like his job, butwhen you quit and go, all in,
people start to pay attentionand I've been doing that with my
business, trying to build theway I want to build it, and I've
been explaining, like the fearsaround that you know where,
like oh, I'm not.
You know you've got quite a bigaudience, you should be making
millions.

(14:01):
And here you are like lastmonth I made like 3k and I'm
like, oh, my god, you're such afailure.

But you've got a plan right like you're building
the way you want to build, and Ithink people enjoy that, enjoy
to watch it let's double down onthat, because what you kind of
highlighted there with risk iskind of what, uh, matthew dicks
talks about in story worthy,which is called stakes.
So how does that add gravity tothe situation and how it pulls
people into your audience?

Darren Lee (14:23):
Yeah, sure, I mean, if we do an example, if I was to
tell you let me give you 10writing tips, you might not care
, you might maybe kind ofinteresting.
But if I was to say somethinglike in the past three years
I've managed to go from making$1 in 18 months to making $1.1
million and I went from dentistto entrepreneur there's such an

(14:46):
interesting story there thatlike the framing is completely
different on the advice that yougive.
So I think people kind ofrespect risk.
You know, everyone kind ofwants to be courageous and like,
don't get me wrong, I shitmyself all the time, constantly
shitting myself, but it's kindof action in spite of fear.
Uh, it's nice to read becausepeople like to be inspired and I

(15:09):
found that's a really funfeedback loop as well, because
I'm always asking myself like,uh, if you were to live your
life like it was a headline, uh,like what would the decision be
there instead?
And uh, it's always kind ofpushing me to like keep, like
get out of the lane, like seewhere the discomfort is and
follow it.

So it's basically getting out of your own way, but
this is an interesting kind ofdichotomy, because it's getting
out of your own way but thenalso building the business that
you want to build.
How do you balance?

Darren Lee (15:34):
that I don't know.
Man, like I think sometimes youI'm actually just trying to.
We said this earlier.
I'm trying not to think so muchabout it.
Yeah, yeah, like at least I'msomeone that likes to be in
control.
I mean, we're entrepreneurs,that's why we're here, right,
like you don't want to beanswering to someone else and I
realized I was spending so muchmental energy trying to control

(15:55):
the direction.
Like, oh, I want to be doingthis in five years.
I want to set rules foreverything you know.
And I actually thought,actually, I mean, that's a sign
that you don't have confidencein how you're acting at the
moment.
And so 90-day sprints and I'malways just thinking what did I
enjoy most?
And if that means makingchanges, cool.

(16:18):
But yeah, I just like following.
Like follow your curiosity andjust see where it goes and bring
your audience along for theride um, that's super
interesting.

How do you, how do you analyze what's working in
there or what do you enjoy?
Because I guess, like you,could do something new that's
going to be great, that's that'sgoing to be beneficial for you,
but it could be difficult.
So therefore, you don't like it, but it will become enjoyable
when you get good at it I usedto hate sucking at things.

Darren Lee (16:43):
Yeah, yeah, like, yeah, like I was never good at
sport, I was never good atanything really and I think it
was just because I hated lookinglike a loser.
I think, if you actually justreframe that bit where difficult
doesn't mean bad, now, likeeverything I start, I'm like
this is so good, how bad it is,and just like enjoying it from
there, because I think it's justdoing new things I find really

(17:07):
fun, and so, because you'rekeeping your mind fresh, right,
you're like agile and stuff, soI'm not really judging it by
difficulty.
Uh, I think some things aremeant to be hard, right, like,
um, everything worth doing ishard work, but really trying to
pay attention to like how isthis making me feel internally,
not chasing an outcome is themistake.

(17:28):
So, like I saw a question fromSal Bloom yesterday which was do
you want what winning lookslike?
And I was like that's a veryinteresting question because you
might end up building dentistry, for example.
Like I was going down this pathand I was like I don't know what
winning looks like, like I'veseen what my boss is doing at 50
.
It looks like hell and I thinkit's.

(17:48):
Do you know?
What are you like?
Do you want what winning lookslike, or are you chasing how
winning makes you feel?
And that's where the error goeswrong, like where you're
chasing money and status andfame and you keep going and
going down that path withoutactually thinking internally
like am I having fun?

double down on that if you don't mind.
How do you so?
Why do you think so deeplyabout this?
Like what was the driver foryou to be really like
conscientious of, like the innerwork, of how you're building
something, because sometimespeople do a lot of inner work
but they're still separated fromtheir business, but it's really
integrated.
I'd love to just kind of it'squite unique though your
perspective on this.

Darren Lee (18:24):
Man, we're going to die someday.
Yeah, yeah, you're going to diesomeday.
And like you've really got toenjoy what you're up to.
I think, if you look at it froma purely incentive point of
view, I know that in a longtimeframe I'm going to build my
best business by really enjoyingit.
So I'm more than happy to likehave faith, even if it takes 10

(18:49):
times longer to get there, likeif you're building something
that you're having fun the wholeway.
Like no one can tell you that'slike the wrong path.
But um, yeah, I mentioned it toyou before.
But like I had like quite aclose brush with death and I
think that's set a bit of atangent where I'm like shit, man
, like you've got to enjoyyourself now, because everyone,
even myself, I forgot about thisbut like my plan as a dentist
was to work as hard as I couldfor 20 years, even though I
hated my job, so that I couldretire at like 45 and I was like

(19:13):
wow, like that was almost oneof the most stupid things you've
ever done.
Your life is like gone gone goneand like there's that
expression where, like, if youcan do this well in a career you
hate, imagine if you're doingsomething you love and um, so
now, yeah, like I, I just thinkit's, it's very important, like
I say this to my friends withthe time, like you've got to
enjoy yourself, man, becausethis is all we've got so let's,

(19:35):
let's go deeper again, because Ithink this is so much layers to
this.

So, as you're optimizing for things that you
enjoy, or building a businessmore more so like freedom, right
, because you're not going toenjoy everything, it's not like
you're going to enjoy likefucking building out some stuff,
right, it's going to beeverything part of it.
Yeah, um, how much do you thinkabout that in relation to the
vehicle that you're picking andhow you do it?
Because that's obviously goingto this is going to dictate,

(20:00):
like, the type of offers you canbuild and what you can do and
maybe potentially, the money youcan make.
I don't know, have you, haveyou thought about this much more
in detail?

Darren Lee (20:12):
I have a few simple constraints for me.
For me, writing is the bestthing in the world.
It brings me so much joy towake up every morning and write.
It's what I think about.
It's all the reading, thewriting, the walking, the
meditating, it's all kind of allplaying into one thing, and so
one of my main constraints isthat nothing gets in the way of

(20:32):
that.
I follow a few online writers,writers, and I heard them all
express the same regret, wherethey're like I started off
writing a lot and now I don'tget to write much because I'm
busy with my business, and I'vealways said, cool, well, I'm
always going to write for likesix to eight hours a day and the
rest happens like on the side.
So that's my main rule fromthere.

(20:53):
Man, is that if I find I meanthere's some periods where you
have to dial it back a littlebit, right, but, like you said,
like business is intense, likeyou need to sprint at certain
points, but if I notice like ifit's been like three, four weeks
and I'm not doing anything thatI want or it's really squeezed,
then like you're kind of goinga bit wrong, like you're chasing
a different outcome than whatyou said is important like an
internal game instead are youfamiliar with tom nos Nosky?

Yes, I had a podcast with Tom recently and we
had this debate going back andforth a lot.
Sorry, it was a debate.
What he had with himself, whichwas he goes through periods
whereby he really wants tooptimize for freedom, but then
the business phase that he's inat that time forces him
basically to have more time inthe business, but then he's

(21:38):
balancing between the twobecause he has high opportunity,
um, but then at the cost of ormaybe there is a cost or there
isn't a cost.
There's always this basicallylike debate going on his head
and I think the way that we kindof discussed it was like it
still has to be enjoyable andthen understanding that are you
getting the things that youreally wanted to do anyway done
right, which is like cycling forhim, running for him, spending

(21:59):
time with, like his, his missusor whatever.
So it's almost like separatingout these two different things
and then having the constraintsin your business is going to be
the best way to get there yeah,and also when I was a dentist, I
used to dream of freedom.

Darren Lee (22:12):
Right, I heard that word and I'm like, wow, I would
love to be free right now.
Like I want to be in southamerica on a beach somewhere
writing, and, um, I've come torealize recently that freedom is
not like a lack of commitments,it's being able to commit to
the thing you love, and so I cantell that with tom.
Like, I read his emails all thetime and I'm like this guy
loves what he's building, and soyou know, the freedom doesn't

(22:36):
mean a no work.
It just means that you'rebuilding something that
genuinely means something to youas you go.
So, um, there has to be periodswhere you're putting in the
graft, but to me, like I said,like the freedom element is like
this craft is building thething that I really enjoy and
again, as you said with tom,when you recognize in tom's
emails, you can feel it.

Yeah, you know we're writing.
You can feel if someone's goingto love it or not man how you
feel seeps into the page.

Darren Lee (23:03):
Yeah, like I've learned that so much, like I've
built products where, gosh, I'vegot to sell this now, like a
swipe file, for example.
And like I'm reading the emails, I'm like this is missing
something and it's harder towrite.
It's hard, it's longer, I'mediting it more, but then if I
write about writing, or if Iwrite, I mean for me, man, if I
write about deep life stuff, itjust pours out my fingers and

(23:25):
every time people like that wasthe bomb, and so that's another
reason why I'm such fun of theenergy man like that.
That's where it leads.
So, yeah, I mean it's hard tomake money doing something you
don't enjoy, and I mean that'ssame with sales, like same with
writing.

It's all the same thing well, I guess it just
shows up right, seeps out, asyou said.
It just appears in differentaspects of your life.
I'm curious to know, like, whatother like deep areas do you
like explore, because you'veobviously talked about this very
, very deeply and how it comesinto your life.
Like, what other things havekind of popped up for you like
realizations, even since you'veleft industry and you've built a
business and stuff?
What are realizations have youhad about how you want to frame

(23:58):
your life as well?
Are you an agency owner, coachor consultant looking to scale
your online business at folks?
We help business owners scaletheir online business with
content.
We help them specifically builda high ticket offer, create
content that turns into clientsand also help them with the
sales process to make sure everysingle call that's booked in
your calendar turns into aclient.
If you want to see more aboutexactly how we do this, hit the

(24:19):
first link down below and watcha full free training on how
smart entrepreneurs are buildinga business in 2025.

Darren Lee (24:26):
Yeah, it's interesting with writing.
Like most people, I got into itjust to get paid online and
have a skill, but the more Istarted writing, it was like
peeling away layers of yourthoughts that you hadn't even
considered and um you know, forexample, the the first time I
went viral was a story about myneck, which which I'll tell you.
But, um, I we'll go through thatfirst and I'll kind of explain

(24:50):
from there.
But um, when I was 16 I hadscoliosis bending spine and they
took you in for a scan.
You know, on the NHS, you gofor a scan, you hear back four
months later, right.
And they called us a week laterand they were like, would you
come back in?
We just need to double checksomething.
And I went in and the good bitwas I was writing about this at

(25:12):
the time and I'd never evenconsidered this story before.
I was always like just breezingpast it.
But anyway, we went back in and, um, they're like we just need
to take a scan a little bithigher up.
And so did my mom cool, noworries went for the scan and
called us back in, laid thex-rays out in front of us and he
was like it's gonna be a littlebit scary what we tell you, but
you have a brain tumor andyou've got a broken neck and at

(25:34):
the time I I was getting thesemigraines right and I was like
migraines in my arm.
I started to feel a bit funny.
I was like, oh, I don't knowwhat that is, it's just
treatment growing and degradingmy nerves.
And I just remember him sayingwhere it's like, look, screwed
up, but if we didn't find thisthing, you'd be permanently
disabled by 30.
And at the time, very sociallyanxious kid, very overweight,

(25:57):
all this stuff, and like I had apretty tough couple of years
going back to school from there,I didn't want to do the
operation too scared, and sothis is where my relationship
with fear came in and this iswhat I've been writing so much
about.
But I didn't know it at thetime, because if you don't write
, you're not really likebuilding any awareness.
And anyway, I had the operationwhen I was 18 uh, 16 hours, 14,

(26:22):
16 hours, uh.
And I remember waking up and,uh, sun shining, nurses are all
smiling and stuff, and I'm likethis is amazing.
You know, if you have 16 hoursof anesthetic, you are fucked
for like three, three days rightflying.
And I remember waking up againuh, busy nhs ward, uh, beeping,
like just everyone was busy.
And it felt like what they'ddone, which is they cut away
your skull, they'd hammered yourneck together and it took out a

(26:42):
tumour.
And since then.
Anytime I get stressed, I alwaysthink back to that night and
I'm like things can be worse,right, like it's all good, like
it's all about perspective, andI mean that that's really,
really helped with the writingside the business, because we're
always trying to reframe thingsfor people you know like,
always trying to turn anobstacle into an opportunity,

(27:04):
and it just carried on.
Like I was in hospital forabout three weeks, couldn't even
take a shit by yourself, likeit's very humbling to go right
back from the bottom.
And this is where I found aboutthe love of learning, where,
like, I got home and I thoughtlife would be normal, uh, it
wasn't.
You know, like you'recompletely screwed.

(27:24):
And I found out about, you know, getting a little bit better
every day and how, like, if youwere so focused on a distant
outcome, like I had to get intouni within six months, so I was
like, lose my spot.
Um, I was like, okay, well, ifyou just start, let's get out of
bed by yourself, let's walkdown the stairs by yourself.
You're doing that every day andlike I still remember the first
time I done a pull-up and youknow again, I was like 25 kg
overweight and it was a nicesort of trajectory, about a bit
of a change in terms of youlearn that you can we were

(27:46):
speaking about this earlier likeyou can pretty much do what you
want.
Like you can learn anything,you can get good at anything if
you're willing to put in thereps.
And so I discovered that.
Then got to uni, uh, and I wentbrilliant first year in
newcastle.
So a lot of drinking and um,but the only downside was my
back is still bending and it gotto 56 degrees.
So we're past the right anglenow and they're like well, you

(28:08):
need to get this sorted, um, andit's about eight hours, which
is light work compared to thefirst one.
And the good bit is, you know,like I, I went in five foot six,
I came out five foot nine.
No, which is cool, man, becauseyou know five six.
You got a bit of a graft likeuh, with smaller dudes.
But like five, nine, you can befunny, like you can get away
with it.
And um, yeah, so anyway, likedentistry was cool, um, you had

(28:30):
a good time.
And uh, when I graduated I waslike you've been given this gift
of life, let's make the most ofit.
Let's work really hard.
But the thing is, my making themost of it was money.
I come from a poor family.
We were always like I justalways believed that money was
the coolest thing in the world.
And so that's where you startgoing down these scripts.

(28:51):
I remember telling the school Iwant to be a dentist
immediately and was like great,go do that.
Like that, that's, that's agreat thing in society.
And like I'm working away andmy, my paycheck's getting bigger
, I'm getting more miserable.
Too busy to notice.
So what we were talking aboutearlier, just too damn busy,
yeah.

(29:12):
And one day this patient comesin and he's screwed right like
um, walking in, like like this,he's about 35, sits down, the
whole side of his mouth isrotting, and I was like you know
, taking his medical history,and I was like, oh, what's
happened?
And he was like, oh, I had thissuper rare neurological
disorder.
And I was like, oh, my man, metoo, me too.
And then he told me the nameand it was the exact same

(29:35):
diagnosis.
And they never found it.
And so I was looking in themirror at what could have been.
And he said to me like theseven words stick with me all
the time.
He's like you don't know howlucky you have it.
Like my life is over, constantpain, can't move, my arm
completely screwed.
And that was when he left.
I was like I think he's right,like I don't know how lucky

(29:56):
you've got it, like you've gotto quit your job.
And that was kind of what setme down that trajectory of like
I didn't know what I wanted todo, but let's do something.
And then when you found thewriting, the really cool bit is
like when I started writing, itsucked right, like it just no
one was reading.
And like I was takinginspiration from James Clear.
He was like two, three years,it'd be cool.

(30:16):
Man, just keep writing, keepwriting, not realizing that
online a lot of the advice isoutdated.
I'm building a blog when youshould have been on social media
, all this sort of stuff.
13 months in, no one is reading.
My mom bless her, she's stillgoing In my drafts.

(30:39):
I had the story about my neckand I'd actually cried when I'd
written it.
Um, I've never thought about itbefore.
I was always.
You asked me 10 years ago I'dbe like I had a neck thing.
It's cool, don't worry about it.
Um, which shows the stoic manright.
And anyway, um, brent saw it.
You have to post this, and sowhen I did that was the first
time I went viral and I quit myjob two weeks later, and so

(31:00):
actually, the next thing hasbeen the best thing that's ever
happened to me because, like itset me on this trajectory, like
I get to spend all day writingand get to travel the world and
I think, as a result, a lot ofthe stuff I write about ends up
being about life because, um, Idon't know, I just think it's
super important that peoplerealize that, like you are going

(31:20):
to die at one point and itcould happen a lot sooner than
you think, and it's kind of aheavy thing and like people get
scared to hear that.
But like definitely anythingthat's certain right, and like
if you, if you're not thinkingabout it, you're always going to
be scared, and if you're alwaysscared, you're not going to do
what you want well, if you thinkabout it right, most people
don't have that wake-up calluntil they're like mid-30s or

(31:41):
40s, because probably theirparents have died.

Does that make sense?
And then that's like therealization that, oh fuck,
things may not go the way that Iwant it to go, but again it's a
blessing, in disguise, what youwent through, right, that
experience, and that's that'sthe reason, that's why I want to
go deeper on it, because that'sthe reason why you prioritize
freedom yeah right, and it's theway you put constraints on the
business, because you've seenwhat it's like to be one inch

(32:06):
away from it for sure, and eventhe fact that they spotted on a
second time over.
They may have missed it, andthis happens a lot, right, all
the time all the time.

Darren Lee (32:15):
All the time, dude, I was a dentist.
The amount of stuff you'd missbecause you're too busy, like,
thank god someone was lookinglike a little bit higher up
because I wouldn't be sittinghere yeah, 100.

So knowing that, like knowing where, where that
is, how have you, how do youbuild your business?
So, because, like you're famousfor your launches, you're
famous for your products, how doyou build that?
How have you built thatecosystem?
On the back end of your writing, because there's constraints
everywhere.
Yeah right, but you've hadamazing results and you've had

(32:44):
your six-figure launches andyou've got up to like your 750k,
800k or even closer to like amillion a year.
Now, um, how, how have youbuilt that ecosystem effectively
?

Darren Lee (32:59):
I've tried to optimize for a few things.
One is long-term reputationover short-term revenue.
Always tried to have that inthe back of my mind.
I think a lot of people getstuck in the money now trap, so
you're selling so much of yourtime that you're not actually
building long-term leverage, andso I try to at least spend the
first four to six hours of myday building stuff for the

(33:20):
long-term your products, yourcourses, your books, stuff that
your audience, for example,because that way you're always
kind of pushing for theexponential result, not the
linear.
So that's been great,optimizing on the product side,
trying to serve at scale, andthen the other side is
ironically so.
You're so obsessed withleverage are you doing the

(33:42):
biggest thing?
But the other side of it isdoing the things that don't
scale.
So, for example, one thingbecause I was optimising for
product, I was like you don'thave that much contact with your
customers and that's you knowit's hard to build a
relationship, and so what Iended up doing was, uh, sending
thank you videos to every singlecustomer.
I think I filmed like 2 500.

(34:02):
Yeah, saying the same thingevery time, but the name is
different.
Okay, yeah, but like littlethings like this, you know, like
, um, I really wanted to build aconnection with my audience,
and so, um and I think that'seven more important now, by the
way, people are starting torealize that but these little
touches like still replying toevery email now, still replying

(34:24):
to every DM, and then so youhave this kind of barbell thing
where it's like you're very,very personal with people in
your content and if people wantto talk to you, cool, but the
products that you're buildingare accessible to everyone, or
to the widest range of people,and I think that combo, uh, has
just worked out really well.

Yeah for sure, and I think the big difference
there is, uh, is you were doingpersonalization before.
That was the edge, right, and alot of companies now will need
to over index on that.
Yeah, because you're not justable to kind of sell from like a
distance.
So what, what is it?
You're bringing them true,right, because if you're 2500
people coming through yourprogram and they're all getting
thank, thank you videos from you, they're in a pretty good

(35:03):
position, right?

Darren Lee (35:04):
yeah, yeah, what do you mean?

so, in terms of like, uh, what was the program
you're bringing them true like,how do you, how did you pull
them from like your actualprogram from twitter into your
programs so that you can givethem personalized messages for
everything?

Darren Lee (35:16):
yeah, uh, so I am.
All my business is run throughemail.
I mean, that's the bit that alot of people screw up.
Um, thank god that I made thatbet early.
Uh, so many creators thinksocial media is the point right,
but it's the start, it's notthe end goal, it's the oh, it's
the rented traffic, rentedtraffic man, yeah, yeah, I mean

(35:37):
like.
So, for example, I ended up, uh,getting to almost a quarter
million followers on x and then,boom, over three months I
watched my traffic go down bylike 95 percent.
It's just how it goes, you know, and I'm very grateful it
happened, because it made merealize that you had to
diversify, uh.
So what we do is we have well,what's the issue there?

because I've I've heard this numerous times from
different people as well.

Darren Lee (35:59):
Yeah, I'm not sure.
I mean, elon took over, thatwas kind of when stuff started
changing.
Algorithm changes uh, favors alot of political content, favors
a lot of video, and I was like,oh, I don't really want to do
video that much, so I didn't.
And uh, you can feel thispressure to either go polarizing
in a way you don't want to bepolarizing or, uh, like I have a

(36:22):
couple friends and now I'mwriting this like super generic
personal development crap.
Yeah, uh, and it doesn't buildyour business like you're so
blinded by the likes.

I've seen a lot of writers do like guys that are
big on LinkedIn but doing thatcookie cutter shit on Twitter
just because they've lost theirreach.
So let's go deeper on theTwitter side of it, because
that's where you built yourbusiness.
But do you think it's kind ofbullshit now X?
Do you think it's kind of goingoff the edge?
What's your thought?

Darren Lee (36:53):
I think X is the coolest place in the world to
write.
It's like a live auction placeof ideas, right, and online.
It's who can compress theirideas best wins.
I think X is that right.
I mean, the downside is, yes,it's not like a great place
compared to, say, linkedin, butI think having X is like a place

(37:15):
to just bounce your thoughtsout and just see what people are
liking, because it's the onlyplatform where I could send 15
tweets in a day and people notbe annoyed and I can see four
things did well, great.
Now let's turn all that intolong form content and then so
the next week we start to expandon these concepts.
So that's how I've always usedX.
It's kind of like the top offunnel but top of thinking stuff

(37:37):
where it's just soundboarding.
So I think from there it'sgreat.
I think that the smartestpeople are all still there.
The networking on X is the best.
I mean I just I try it onLinkedIn and I'm like it sucks.
I mean I've got I actually donow.
I mean we've got about 30,000followers on LinkedIn and I've
been on the timeline for likethree minutes.
I was like this sucks.

(37:57):
So, yeah, it's not for me.
So the networking compressionof ideas is great.
It's just a shame about thealgorithm, but it's not in your
control, man.

But it's a sign, right, it's a sign.
You need to de-platform users.
You cannot be reliant on thatSame even for YouTube, right, on
that same even for like youtube, right is this if your audience
adjusts, or you adjust more, soyou adjust, right, you like,
you evolve, the audience thatyou built may not be the
audience that it's going toadjust with you.
Yeah, right, and I've.
We have a lot of clients, evenmyself, you know, as I've gone

(38:28):
into my fifth year of content,or nearly sixth year.
Um, as my interest change or mycontent gets more sophisticated
, my audience may not as welllike the same level of
sophistication.
Yeah, it's tough, you know.

Darren Lee (38:43):
Yeah, it is tough, but you've got to evolve, right,
yeah, exactly yeah, and I thinkit's so sad when people get
stuck in a rut of just sayingthe same thing and doing the
same thing.
It's cool to lose your audienceif you're going in a different
direction.
Thing when I.
It's cool to lose your audienceif you're going in a different
direction.
Um, I used to be really scaredto write about the deeper stuff,
like that was oh, you know,you're meant to just write about
your writing tips and talkabout how to build an audience

(39:05):
and all of that.
And um, actually, when again,following the fear man, like it
takes you somewhere, cool, uh,but the best place for it is
email, like at least for awriter, because you don't have
an algorithm telling you what todo.
And so, for example, it's likeif writing is a one-on-one
conversation with thousands ofpeople, I'm not going to sit in

(39:26):
front of you and go hey, bro,let me tell you my 10 business
building tips.
Like it would just be a weirdthing, right, like, straight
away, like man, let me tell youa story about this thing that
happened.
You get to do that all the timein email, and so I just find
that really special because youhave creative freedom.
Uh, the creative freedom letsyou go and follow your curiosity
, which means that you end up,yes, like sometimes you might

(39:48):
not be saying the same thing aseveryone else, but to one person
, like that's really special.
And I think if you can createone fan with your writing, like
the internet becomes like amagnet, right, like it's just a
search function, it's just amatter of time.
If you keep writing about thestuff you enjoy, you know you
don't really need that manyfollowers.
If you can get like, if you canget a hundred fans compared to

(40:09):
like 10,000 followers, like Iwould definitely choose the fans
.

Yeah, and it is like a thousand people or a
hundred people, right, and theway that the products can be
positioned, the way that theoffers are positioned, you can
just you can make all the moneythat you want or optimize for
what you want with a smalleraudience.
So if your reach has beenrestricted, how are you still
building your list, like how?
And also what would you adviseother people?

(40:33):
Right, because if would youadvise other people right
Because if Would you say thatopportunity is gone on X.

Darren Lee (40:39):
I don't think I would say gone, it's not as good
, it's not as good, which is whyI was just saying there about
optimizing for fans overfollowers.
I think it's how it should be,how it's always been.
Actually so, in terms of howI'm building my list extremely
slowly and actually I think overthe past six months, the list

(40:59):
is getting smaller because I'memailing more.
Before I was too scared toemail more because I was like,
oh, my list has to grow becauseit's all about size.
But it's not how big youraudience is, it's how much they
trust you.
And so once I realized that, Iwas like, oh shit, man, I I'm
gonna be emailing three times aweek at least.
Uh, I'm gonna be building moreoffers because I was too scared
to sell to my audience.

(41:20):
But the more results you get,your audience like what are we
here for?
What are we here for?
You know like, yeah, for fame.
Or you're here to like getpeople what they want.

so I heard hermos up with this before, which was
like, um, hermosi was on, uh,ice coffee, ice ice coffee hour
and you're asking about, um, youknow the negative connotations
with school and all theseplatforms and it's like, look,
if you're not sharing your bestideas, uh, people are gonna be
pissed off with you.
So if you're not writing yourbest ideas and sharing them and
saying like, oh dude, like thatshould be a product, some people

(41:51):
should buy it, those peoplewill be pissed off with you.
Equally, the people who don'tbuy your stuff or will never buy
your stuff will be pissed offwith you because, equally, the
people who don't buy your stuffor who will never buy your stuff
will be pissed off with youbecause you have an offer.
Well, you may as well bepissing off the people that are
going to pay you and then don'tpiss them off anymore so they
can buy the thing.
Right, because people are goingto be as part of being dividing
and conquering your audience.
People are going to be pissedoff in general, themselves.

(42:12):
No, they're too worried aboutthemselves.
Yeah, right, so it's like we doneed to put that in front of
people.
I think I want to get yourthoughts on this.
I think that is the problemwith the creator.
The creator is fearful ofcreating offers and running
offers, um, and my opinion isprobably because they probably
can't deliver.
You know, they're so focused onthe marketing they're great

(42:36):
marketers but not greatoperators or builders so they
over emphasize creating and, asa result, that's when there's
kind of disgruntlement and so on, so forth.
So a lot of people that come tous like they were traditional
creators, um, and then we haveto teach them to become a
business owner.
It's.
There's a bit of a link there,right, yeah, but I like how
you've adjusted though you'velike you've.

(42:57):
You've made the observationthat, yeah, you can serve at
scale, but in the right way yeah, and also, um, you say about
the creators just creating.

Darren Lee (43:06):
You know like it's so easy to try.
Take something from like a 90to a 91, because that's the
thing you're good at, butactually it's the reason people
pay attention is the businessthat you're building, and so you
have to learn that skill, andwhat I realized was that the
better I got at helping peoplethat wanted to do the sort of
thing that I teach, better thecontent got yes, because you
have actual real life examples.

Yeah, that's why I was like attracted to your
content, because you've donethese big launches and you've
found a blue ocean and a redocean right, and the way that
you do it is based and I've seenyour writing on this, which is
you just did it, you know.

Darren Lee (43:42):
Like you just did it .

And, yes, you've thought about and reflected on
it, but for the most part youjust kind of did it.
And then you're like, yeah,cadence and frequency and the
length of the message, yeah, allthat shit matters, but you only
can see what matters when youdo it.
We chatted before we recorded,saying that when I release
podcasts, people will commentsaying they're too serious.
People will comment sayingthey're too relaxed.
But it's about what's workingand also what uh allows people

(44:08):
to come in, listen to this 90minute conversation and say,
fuck like I learned a shit tonfrom this.
This has been great and workwell.
You know commitment from theaudience.
So let's go deeper on um, onyour offers.
So let's have a look at thelaunch, if you don't mind.
How did you, how did you buildthat out and how have you
consistently been able to nailthat?
Like I spoke to lara quiterecently and a few people like
tom, who smash launches, theyhave different strategies and

(44:31):
I'm happy to share some of thoseas well.
I can go back and forth on that.

Darren Lee (44:34):
Yeah, I mean launching damn man.
Like my first launch was myfirst digital product and it
made about $5,000.
Best feeling in the world,right?
Because it was my firstinternet money, like I remember
I saw that Crack yeah, dude man.
Like I saw that gumroad email,I was running up and down my
flat like fucking get in my son.

(44:55):
Like I remember it was rainingoutside.
I went out like in the sun,like I'm sorry, just in my
t-shirt, like, just grinninglike a madman.
Um, and then, like I mean, Iwas in 2022 and so a year later,
and then I just startedlearning marketing from that
right.
Like I was like, oh, you'regoing to get better at this.
I had a lot of like mediocrelaunches, just like trying to

(45:15):
sell stuff, basically.
And then a year later, I builtmy next product, which was
called high impact writing, andI remember saying, okay,
audience is 10 times the size ofthe last one.
Maybe we'll get 10 times theresult.
So, you know, 30 to 50k, thatwould be fantastic.
And uh, I remember sending theemail again and like I tried to
set the rule of like don't lookat your emails when you launch.

(45:36):
And I was like me, mygirlfriend, we're gonna go for a
drink and stuff.
I was like we'll watch themoney come in and all that I'm
staring at this thing.
Oh shit, what have I done?
Know what it's buying?
Uh, you know, like we've gotlike two, three buys in like two
, three hours and I was like,okay, great, like it's still
going to be cool, but likeyou're expecting a bit more um.
By the end of four days it made140 000 and um, this is where I

(45:59):
started to, you know, piece inretrospect what we were doing
and building a system for it,and so you want to launch
something.
Uh, the key to a launch istension.
So I like to think of it likelike a nightclub producer, right
, like they don't just say, hey,this thing is open, come, no
one will be there.
They talk about it for ages.
So you know, right now I havelike three wait lists.

(46:19):
I'm in my email.
I've been just building for thebook for a product I've got
coming out in a month.
I have my birthday launches andmost people that have ever
bought something from me about amonth ago I started talking
about it four or five monthsbefore don't even know the
product name.
You know, like I actuallysometimes I just say I'm going
to make this product and if noone's really interested and not
clicking it, I'm like, oh cooljust forget about it.

Delete it off your Instagram.
Bad idea.
It's like an old ex.

Darren Lee (46:42):
Just delete it, it didn't matter so you're building
tension right just by talking.
You're not, you're just sharinghow it's going right.
And when they click that linkto say I'm kind of interested,
they get a questionnaire.
And then I'm like why are youinterested in this thing?
What are you struggling with?
What do you want?
So we then start reading thatand being like great, well, now

(47:03):
we know what to build becauseyou haven't built it.
And so you're finding out theproblems that people have and
you start to dial in yourmessage based on like, who's
there?
So, like you get to tellstories about the fears, the
doubts, frustrations, whatthey're struggling with, so that
by the time you launch I mean,my rule is that if anyone is
surprised by the fact you'rereleasing something, you screwed
up your marketing.
You know, like 95 of the workhappens before.

(47:25):
Because you can only I mean, alaunch should be no longer than
five days.
Unless it's high ticket, youmight you might stretch it out a
bit.
It's all like game day, right,I agree, yeah.
And so you build the wait listas much as possible, we build
the hype as much as possible,and then on those five days
you're just sending out emails,you're posting content.
Like it becomes simple mathsnumber of impressions driven to
a sales page.
We're going to get a certainamount of conversions.

(47:47):
One conversions um.
One thing that we did that Ididn't think people did very
well before was that when youbought um, obviously I'm sending
these thank you videos as well,so people would want to support
the launch but I always had inthe first email and I was like,
hey, would you mind, uh, sharingthe fact that you bought my
product because I can't marketanymore like I don't want to
post about this all day, and ifyou provide a reason why when

(48:10):
you make a request, they like it.

So I would make a little joke.

Darren Lee (48:13):
I'd be like I just cannot talk about this product
anymore, but I love it.
So this flywheel, this socialproof flywheel, people are like,
hey, I just bought this productfrom Kieran.
People get more interested andso that's why every launch that
we've then ran I mean we've hadfive, six-figure launches.

(48:33):
Now it's always been like that,where more and more hype gets
built throughout and then youhave to give people a reason to
buy them.
So I had a friend launchingrecently and she was like oh,
it's not going that well.
And I was like cool, so why doI?
Why should I buy it now and notnext week?
No reason.
So there you go.
People are lazy.
Like you need to giveincentives to buy.
So urgency and some scarcity.
So I always do webinars.
So I don't like to discount,because you know how does it

(48:58):
look on your brand if you'relike, hey, you know everything's
always discounted.
So I'm always like, look, ifyou buy it now, I've got these
live trainings, you've got extracommunity, we're going to give,
give, give and that alldisappears.
And so like I feel like, um,that's kind of rewarding your
fans who wanted to buy it anyway.

(49:18):
Um, and that's been the process, man, yeah, it's been the
process and like we test littlethings, but the main part is
that you're giving away as muchas you can.

Uh, you're building a reputation, you're
building tension, and then youhave those five days and then
you over deliver looking at yourlaunch, looking at Lara's and
looking at Tom's Tom Nosk, thebiggest thing that pops up to me
is the work that's done beforethe launch.
So you said there are themonths of on the wait list, or
just like the five years youhave to put in your content,

(49:43):
like that's actually what getsyou to game day.
Yeah Right, it's not just oh,there's some hack or fucking
trick or whatnot in those threeto five days.
That actually isn't it.
You're probably just doing thesame thing as everyone else is
doing in that period of timeRunning the webinars, having an
offer, giving people effectivelya bonus and then maybe ramping
up the emails.

(50:03):
When I was chatting to Tom, hewas saying he was kind of
getting.
He said the amount of successhe would get would be dependent
on the amount of emails he wouldsend in that period of time and
he was writing around three tofive emails a day for 15 days.
But it's just an interestingobservation how like it's like a
Hormozy calls it a whisper andshout effect.
You're whispering it for somany weeks and months and the

(50:23):
last three days then you'reshouting for the launch period
versus people joining whenever.
Let me give an example we haveopen coaching.
So we don't do launches, but wehave like an open coaching
process.
People can join whenever.

(50:43):
But then we have to, as yousaid, you have to use the laws
of the game to be able to getpeople to jump right.
There's pros and cons toeverything.
There's pros to a launch,because you can do six figures
in a week, but the con is afterthe weeks afterwards you're
obviously not going to beselling because it might be
closed doors or whatnot.
So my question is like how doyou, um, how can you put so much

(51:05):
emphasis on the launch versuslike an open coaching model?

Darren Lee (51:08):
yeah, sure, um, but actually my mind's a bit
different.
Uh, in that, uh, I, so I alwaysfollow the same process when we
do it's open, close, refine,relaunch, and so the first
launch is the open, close, right, and you can get it now, and
then you can't get it again.
And the reason I'm doing thatis because I want at least three
months really working withcustomers, going for their
questions.

(51:28):
But it never sat right with mewhere I was always like, if
you're really optimizing to helpyour audience, how does it help
them that you're like takingsomething away that they want to
buy?
Good point, and so my stuff isalways available too.
But you can still run launchesif it's available, because I'm
like, hey, look, you can buy itnow if you want.
Every couple months, everythree months or so, there's
going to be extra bonuses foryou, and so you, I think you got

(51:50):
kind of a nice blend for that.
So, um, I think you canoptimize for a bit of both.
Actually, uh, I think it's niceto have, particularly for your
coaching.
You know like, um, having itopen all the time, but it still
needs to have like thisexclusive feel to it, right,
like it's not like everyone comein.

Well, it's also like this is where you got to
think really deeply as to whatis your supply?
Yeah, right, because I thinkfor us we're trying to optimize
for around 30 new people a month, okay, and anything above 30 is
like more than like six orseven a week, which is like
heavy on the customer success,and this is a high ticket now,
right, so that's like kind oflike your break point versus
hiring more people coming in.
So there is a constraint, yeah,uh, even though it is done with

(52:30):
you.
So you have to like think aboutthat as a result, and then we
can use the laws of the game,which is, uh, as you said, like
the additional bonuses.
We might use one-to-ones, uh,or we might run a re-offer.
So what a re-offer would be inthat instance is, like the
program, six months, but if youjoin in like this like 10-day
window, you'll get a seventhmonth and maybe like a

(52:51):
one-to-one access, right.
So I think there's justdifferent ways.
We can kind of slice and diceit.

Darren Lee (52:56):
Does that make sense ?
I need a notepad?

Yeah, because I think it would be because
basically a big kind of switchfor us was I met Dickie.
Dickie has been a really goodfriend of mine and just like a
big influence, and he was doingopen coaching.
We were doing cohorts and we'redoing the cohorts.
It was very easy, right, it'svery logistical.
And I remember him saying to mehe was like daniel fazio said

(53:18):
to him the company with that canmanage the most organizational
complexity will win in aseamless way.
And they had cracked this modeldown.
So what we had done andmirrored it from, uh dickie was,
yeah, there's onboarding once aweek.
Uh, either group onboarding orone-to-one, depending on how
much you're signing up.
They do group onboarding, likeone every monday.
It's like all right, bros,we're going right, here's the

(53:40):
overview, so that allows peopleto join, they join and then they
join the cadence from there.
So there's no like specific,like launch, um, but there might
be like re-offers.
So I try to use the calendar tomy advantage.
So I remember, I alwaysremember this story.
It was Black Friday coming upand everyone has so much like
negative connotations aroundBlack Friday and I used to say

(54:01):
to the guys in our program beinglike forget that it's Black
Friday, just think about it asanything start a summer for a
fitness offer, after summer forfitness offer after like fat
from the summer.
Um.
Start of the year, valentine'sday.
Just use the calendar, becausethe calendar, the calendar, was
designed by whoever designed thecalendar and we can insert
things as a result.

(54:21):
So we've just been doing that.
They're like micro launchesbetween them.
Yeah, and I'll do.
I will literally look at thecalendar.
I'm like it's january 5th, okay, there's a january offer, and
then we run offers within theretoo.
It's just creativity it'screativity man.

Darren Lee (54:35):
And also, um, if you're, if you've got a personal
brand, uh, it's a great way toencourage connection too.
So, um, for my launches, forexample, I have on my my phone
tells me when this stuff iscoming up.
But the day I quit dentistry,the day I saw my last patient,
like uh, the day I went viralwith my next story is the second
of september.
Like, all of this stuff isthere.

(54:56):
Like you can always, like Isaid, you need a reason why,
when you launch, you know, like,if you just say, hey, there,
here's this thing that I have,and it's because I want you to
buy it, it will never work aswell as like hey, like my my
birthday launch, I turned 33, sowe did so.
Young, dude, you look youngerthan me.
Dude, if I was still a dentist,I would have great hair and
shit by now.

(55:17):
So we did 33 tips for $33 on my33rd birthday and that's the big
idea, that's the creativecopywriting right, and it ended
up with like 600 customers.

And then they start the journey with you into
your ecosystem and everything.
It's beautiful, yeah yeah, haveyou ever heard the concept of
highlighting an offer?
So you promote one offer oryou're pushing one offer which
highlights the other offers,okay.
Okay, this is reallyinteresting.
So, let's say you're pushingyour new cohort or whatever, and
there's a loan strategy and soon, and then you're selling by

(55:47):
chat.
If you don't want to take callsor whatever that may be, give an
interaction, and someone islike karen, this is great, but
you know what, I don't want tobe in a group or I don't want to
go through six weeks of acohort.
Then that highlights adifferent offer, like maybe your
mentorship, and you actuallyare able to actually sell more
into the other offers.
So a big thing that happenswith us is we have an agency in
education.
Get on a call and it's great,we're going to help you with

(56:10):
YouTube and a podcast and we'rehappy with the offer and so on,
and someone's like Jesus Christ,I don't want to do that.
It's like, well, we can do itfor you yeah, I'll do it for you
like, yeah, it's more expensive, yeah, so what, I don't care?
and then they become like aclient for a different offer.
So I think that's that thing towork in this moment of time
yeah it starts the journey withthe customer and I was like okay

(56:32):
, you're best suited here.
You're best suited here.
Which is literally consult ofselling like I've spoken to
about 15 people this week on theair to consult of selling which
is you have different offersand you're giving only one offer
to someone that you believe isthe best fit for them, not the
one that's best for you.
Right, that's it for them.

Darren Lee (56:49):
It's interesting man like I, um, I'm a pretty new
entrepreneur, so, uh, you'restill learning.
And one thing that I've justfound amazing is that, like so,
for example, I, I, I told youI'm really into data that much,
and about six months ago I waslike, let's start looking at you
know, we've done five years ofbusiness here.
Let's start seeing what's there.
And I realized that, um, my,the people that pay me the most

(57:11):
was like three years ago when Iwas doing High Ticket and I've
just been selling courses, right, and so like, the actual LTV
was so low comparatively.
And then I was like, oh, youare completely underserving the
people that want to work withyou most.
And so I started to realize,kind of similar to what you said
.
I launched my first groupcoaching cohort in like two

(57:31):
years, in January.
Guy joined immediately text meafter, being like I need to get
out of this, I need to work withyou one on one.
And he was like I want more ofyour time, I don't want to be
talking to a group of people.
And so now we're working for ayear for like 4x the price.

I have some crazy things you can do there from an
Ascension perspective, like I'm.
So our model is called theecosystem for this exact reason,
which is we have a bunch ofdifferent offers that range
depending where they are, andthen people can move between
them up and down.
This is interesting.
They don't just move up, theymove up and down and then people
find their position and it'slike a call, like a credit
system which joins for, like,someone comes to our mastermind

(58:09):
we run three masterminds a year.
It's like 3k.
If they want to join one of ourhigh ticket programs, we credit
that off the other.
So it's basically like no onehas has any buyer's remorse.
So that's why someone joins ourprogram.
We're like, oh fuck, dude, Idon't want that.
It's like, okay, we can crediteither 100% or maybe like 50% or
whatnot percent, um, and itjust creates this.

(58:29):
It creates this like ecosystem.
That's almost like when you comein and work with apple, when
you buy an iphone.
It's generally how people getstarted.
But then they'll downgrade andbuy airpods and then they want
to be, they want to createyoutube videos, so they'll
create an ipad and then I get amac and then I get.
They're like dogs something tooright.
They're gonna dogs an air tagand I I think through that lens.

(58:51):
Yeah, and I think it's the wayyour products are designed too.
Um, but I guess, try to likerootlessly think about it with
everything that I do yeahbecause then it's the best way
to serve someone.
And there's actually, you know,jordan platten.
Jordan's based in norwich, goodguy for you to connect to what
he has an agency for many yearsand he's an education business.
We chatted last week and he'sbeen in the game for 10 years.
We chatted last week about whatlike ltv looks like for people

(59:15):
and most people never ever getltv or never ever understand it,
because they're so used toselling like a shit program to
someone who obviously churns,doesn't complete it and leaves.
And he was saying to me likewhat we have is extremely rare
that people buy a mastermind,come and join a program, buy
another mastermind, you know,because they're actually getting
results and experienceexperience is important, man, I

(59:39):
was going to say, like you're, Iremember listening to this sort
of stuff at the start when Iwas wow, that sounds so amazing.

Darren Lee (59:46):
But I think what people forget is that the
reputation is what is drivingthe whole thing.
Like for you, for example,you've got brilliant reputation.
Of course people want to buymore and more stuff and you're
getting people results and so Ithink a lot of people they're in
a hurry to build out the fullecosystem, but actually I mean
the clients I'm working with atthe moment.
I'm like one thing well, yes,you know this one thing and

(01:00:07):
everything else will come upwith it, like a rising tide
brings up all, all shit.
100%.
My main mistake or at leastwhen I always think what we
could do better, is like juststop spreading so thin, you know
, like you find the thing thatlights you up, you build that
really well and then, like Isaid, it's so much easier to
then build the ecosystem aroundit, right?

Kiernan Drew (01:00:25):
Well, again, right , it took me four years to build
agency.
Right, it was four years, yeah,and that's four years of like
literally creating five to tenthumbnails a day, pro a day, and
it's like pumping content,pumping content and even to this
day, before we met up, I wasliterally reviewing my own
thumbnails.
Change this, change that,because I think, like you have

(01:00:48):
to be I heard one of my mentorssays before is like you, you
have to be.
I heard one of my mentors saythis before you really need to
be all in with it in terms ofthis is you.
You love writing so much thatyou'll read, bro, you look at.
I know that from just ourconversation.
I know that you look at the bus, you look at the ad on the bus.
You think about the copy onthat on the ad.

(01:01:09):
You know that's a beautifulpart of it.
I'll look at a thumbnail and belike that shit.
For that reason, I change it inthis way and it's because we
enjoy it.
You know, and again, I'm designorientated because I'm dyslexic
, so I look at design and Ireally think about colours are
good.
It gets my opinion this way.

Darren Lee (01:01:25):
You know people hate hustle, but like I think online
it's obsession that wins.
It's obsession, yeah, likepeople are like, oh, what's the
secret to building like apowerful personal brand?
It's like you have to find thething that lights you up,
because you can't compete withpeople having fun A hundred
percent.
Like the writing thing for meis just you live and breathe it
Like it's not even a question.
It's like how are you workingso hard?

(01:01:46):
And it's not a question ofworking hard.
It's like I have to do this.
It's like this is my thing,that I get to like deliver to
the world, and so I think thatpeople, um, I think a you need
to say yes a lot more at thestart to find the thing, but
then you also need thediscipline to then start saying
no, uh, to get really good atthat thing.

Um, I wrote about this in my community the other
day.
I had a message from someoneand, um, I can be like not
brutal, but just like I tried tonot like beat her in the bush.
So someone's like, oh, dude,like you're in london, like
let's meet up, and I justresponded saying I'm working,
yeah.
And then he responded going,got it, you don't do coffee
dates, yeah.
And then one of my friends whenI was younger was like oh, I'm
getting married next year, canyou come?
and I was like, unfortunately,I'm working yeah so I can't fly

(01:02:26):
back from fucking bali to be inireland and, uh, I think people
respect that right and it's just, it's clear, it's concise and I
think and I was saying to mycommunity, being like saying no
gives you the ability to scaleor to make more money or what is
it you want to do.
But there has to be thatcomponent of like you know what
you need to do, bro.
You need to write that, youneed to write those tweets.

(01:02:46):
You probably need to fix one,two, one or two things to do
with the next launch, kind ofknow how to write the copy
already and you just need to doit.
Yeah, you know it's a lot of,it's a lot of time.
You said this with dentistry,right, when you're doing
industry, you were listening tothe podcast and I was laughing
because I think it's a lot ofpeople that live in like london.
Right, they're listening topodcasts, they're running around
, they're thinking about it.

(01:03:07):
They're not doing it for sureman, yeah, it's action it's like
it's action that brings it.

But yeah, I don't know um, you only really
appreciate it in retrospect.
Yeah, uh, like again, like Ialways, I'm always on there and
what we've done is luck.

But if you actually looked at the hours
that you'd put in, um, there isthe work ethic behind it, right,
like, uh, yeah, you've got toput in the reps, it's not luck,
like none of it's luck, and Idon't mean that in like an
arrogant way, it's like it'sjust not, because I think, like
the level of sophistication thatyou have what you're writing
and like the psychology of maybeyour copy in your landing page,

(01:03:43):
for you it comes quiteintuitive, uh.
But you look at it, yeah, it'sobvious.
We write the headline like this.
That headline headline didn't20 minutes, man, you know the
famous story of the guy with theX.
No, no, oh, you'll love this.
So there's a.
This is like a fable, but it'sbasically shows the value of
expert opinion.
So there's a story of a factoryin the 90s and in the 90s, a

(01:04:05):
lot of inefficiencies.
There's smoke going out theback, there's oil leaks and
everything.
And they're bringing thisconsultant and they can't solve
the issue.
And he's walking around thefactory floor and they're like I
think it's that thermostat, Ithink it's that.
And he's like no, no, no.
He's looking around and he seesthis massive, huge like machine
and he goes up and he puts an xon one of the side and he said

(01:04:26):
replace that and he will removeall of your issues.
And then the guy said okay,I'll at least send you my
invoice and then clear that, andso on.
The next morning the manager ofthe plant opens up, goes into
his office and he sees aninvoice for $50,000.
And he rings him and he saidwhat the fuck?
You just put an X there.
How is it $50,000?
And he said the X costs $1.

(01:04:46):
Knowing where to put it costs$49,999.
And that's a big thing which isfor you.
You've just done the reps andyou've learned where to put the
right positioning.
That luck so happens to fall.

Yeah, I think everyone needs that specific
knowledge.
So I've been five yearsbuilding online.
Now, or at least in a month,it'll be five years since I
started my first blog post, andit's really, really interesting
watching every brand that'sstill going which is, by the way
, five percent everyone else isquit, so podcasters yeah,
everyone else is great, and Ilove that because I'm always

(01:05:21):
like great, you're not competingwith everyone, you're competing
with the survivors.
so my rule if you're tryingsomething new is always expect
results in two years, not twomonths, and that's always kept
me going Like I was startingYouTube and I'm like two years,
not two months.
Or I'm writing my first book.
I'm like two years, not twomonths.

So I've been putting out one podcast a year.
I've one podcast a week forfive years.
Fantastic, and I've never isthere every single week it comes
out.
Sometimes we do two weeks andwhenever I speak to someone
they're like well, chriswilliamson does three a week and
this person has three a weekand all the guys I did two to
three times a week majority ofthem are gone right, and they're

(01:05:58):
just gone, and it's so funnybecause I've been able to manage
a business travel everything inone episode a week done yeah
few in the bank.
Perfectly fine, I know I need tobe somewhere to record at some
point.
And yeah, it's chill, you know.
And then it's part of more ofthe infinite game, because not
every I remember hearing, youknow, joe delaney, og, fitness

(01:06:19):
and fitness dudes.
I'll never forget this.
I had a podcast with joe and hewas like everyone is so
obsessed with improvement andlike bigger and better, so every
video, every post, every tweetgetting more likes as a sign of
progression.
But if you look at YouTube Homeor your YouTube analytics, there
is a ranking of your videos andit's from one to 10.

(01:06:40):
And there has to be a 10.
Like technically, there has tobe a 10.
So for there to be a one whenyou release a video, that new
video, one of them has to be a10 out of 10.
So not every video can be oneout of one, one out of one.
It's literally like mathematics, yeah, but we're still
optimizing for that.
So he said fuck that, I'm notfollowing that approach at all.

(01:07:00):
I'm creating stuff that I wantto create that will eventually
be a two out of ten and one outof ten, but by the end of it,
I'll still be able to keepcreating content that I want to
create.

Yeah, and one rule when I started writing because
no one was reading was well, Ihad three rules.
I was like did I get better atmy craft?
Did I share an idea to helpsomeone win?
Did I learn something new?
And I always still come back tothat now where it's like you
are just putting in those reps.
People really underestimateconsistent effort over time.
And so you're saying aboutmaybe doing two free videos a

(01:07:31):
week.
Um, urgency.
I've found to be one of thebiggest double-edged swords for
entrepreneurship.
Right like, everyone lovesspeed, but it's only sexy if
you're going in the rightdirection.
And so when you're in a rush,you know like so many people
just end up quitting.
And so I just think that I I'musually a rusher, right like uh,
even then I almost moved mylaunch back two weeks because I

(01:07:52):
was like I reckon we could dothis and I was about to text all
my friends being like cancelmeetings, cancel all my calls,
I'm gonna go hit this launch.
I'm like dude, stop rushing man.
Like it's cool, what's thehurry?
Like we're here to play fordecades.

So such a good point.
I want to before we wrap up.
I want to ask you about thesales process, because you're
not selling like a $99 e-book,right?
You're selling some high ticketstuff.
How do you manage your saleswithout taking calls?

It just seems to be happening, man, yeah, yeah.
So I sell through email.
My courses are about $500.
My high ticket has been between$3,000 and $12,000.
And I send out story-basedemails and I ask people if
they're interested to let meknow and we start a conversation
.
Um, and then I have a salespage.

(01:08:40):
Yeah, yeah, but I'll be honestwith the sales page stuff.
Like you said that, like mysales pages are good, like it
feels like black magic to me,like I find it very hard to do
that stuff, but I find thatevery time writing sales pages,
you know, like actual sales copy, would you?

move to a Google doc.
Yeah, yeah, I can help you withthat.

Yeah, yeah.

Like in like five minutes.

Yeah.

Because, like, that's the whole point is, if
you're not going to go down thecall route, you need to go down
the, the it's called, what's theword?
There's a word for it, butbasically it just needs to be
like it's like an invite yeah,so it's google, doc or notion,
whatever you prefer, and then ithas to be people are in or out,
so by the time they get it,they're in or out.
Sure, yeah, you know, and it'sjust super fast to adjust and

(01:09:25):
super, super simple, you know tobe fair, my high ticket is
google docs.

Sick, yeah, it's google docs.
I mean, that's the easier one,because those people want to
work with you A hundred percent,and that was actually why I
screwed up with my birthdaylaunch.
I spent so long writing thissales page and then I it's all
design and everything you know.

So much complexity .

Yeah, well, the whole.
Like the best thing you've everwritten.
Delete all of it.
It was like your offer is sogood that like you've gone down
the indirect sales approach andlike, uh, it was actually like
33 for 33 man, like it's all youneeded to say, like people
would have bought it.
You don't need to go on for somuch.

(01:10:01):
So I love copyright.
Man, like I'm a very avidstudent, like I, I respect
people that can actually writecopy, not for their business.
Like I feel like my brandcarries a lot of it.

Um, it's an incredible skill interesting man
, because the whole logic withgoogle doc is that, um, it
should be shorter, like theshorter you can you can be the
better.
Yeah clarity is king right yeah,so like if it can be one page,
it should literally be one page,you know so I think it's funny
because I had a friend who isgoing to be a client and he

(01:10:34):
wanted to come to mastermind andthen I was like bro, I think
you're a better fit for likethis program.
And he looked at it the offerdoc and he's like, uh, yeah,
whatever.
And then I was like, well, okay, well, maybe this one, just
because he was kind of half inbetween, and then he just
responded going I think I needthis because I need to use a
google doc so he was like Ithink I just need to learn from
you how to do it.
Yeah, and I was like yeah, man,I was like this is so much

(01:10:56):
easier for you because it's juston a fucking piece of paper and
he's like yeah man, yeah, itobviously works.
You know, it's just such a clearclarity because of the problem.
On the problem, like there's alot of so okay, okay, do you
think I said that?
So there's like the call funnelof all bros and then there's a
style of chat bros and it's likewhich one works.

(01:11:16):
They both work, but they havedifferent tendencies and
behaviors.
100% they're different likemannerisms.
So if you're on a call, to getto the call is a much different
behavior.
But if you're in a message, youshouldn't be treating the
messages like the calls.
So, on the messages, it's verylike yes, no, we're starting
next week.
In or out, no, cool, all right,no, worries, no, and like no,

(01:11:39):
like um, hard feelings, whereasif you're on a call, we're
starting next week.
Oh, I didn't think about it.
What do you think about?
You go through objectionhandling.
You can go through a differentprocess, but you can't be like
objection.
Well, like not, that you can't,you can do whatever you want,
but the logic is that you can'tbe doing sales call tendencies
in chat, because on chat it'svolume.

(01:12:01):
Uh, we have a very big client,um getting 5 000 inbound
requests a month and he didn'twant to do calls.
All right, fine, but now thesales teams that we have for him
, just like a one or two setters.
The goal is to do 100 offers aday, to give 100, so literally
to give people the offer, doc,at least 100 of them a day,
because he couldn't get throughthe volume that was coming in.

(01:12:22):
So it's like, if you don'tfilter it, filtration system,
and you can do that with like,yes, no.
Logic which is like uh, are youin or do you want to hear more?
Yes, no, uh, happy to send youmore details?
Yes, no, sorry, good fit.
Yes, no, and it's all right,cool, we'll come back and drop
your message in 30 days,whatever, here's a free resource
, um, but I think the issue iswhen people muddy it yeah, sure,

(01:12:42):
yeah, stuck, you know?

yeah, I mean, I've always just been in um the case
of like just chatting to peoplelike a normal person yeah yeah,
like I.
I get such an ick when I go on asales call with these because
if you know sales right likewhen someone is doing it to me,
I'm like my god, this isrepulsive.
Yeah, uh.
So I've always just treatedthat, my audience, like that, as
I want to do it, you want tonot, which I guess what you're
saying, right like I'm alwaysjust like cool man whenever you

(01:13:04):
want it yeah, it's with orwithout your energy.

Yeah, you're good.
Yeah, regardless, yeah yeah,for sure.

I think that you were saying earlier about
creators being scared to launchoffers like you have to put in.
It's like maximum effort in theoutput, but minimal fucks for
the outcome yes, I always remindmyself.
I'm always like, do you buythis or not?
I'm having a great time, yeah,and I think that actually shows
oh, I took the words out of mymouth.

They absolutely see that.
Yeah, you know, they absolutelysee that, especially even with
ascensions or when people finishprograms, it's like, hey, what
we do is it's very, very nice.
It's like finish program, youcan stay on a subscription Cool,
you can ascend and be credited,or you can leave and we'll
still stay friends, and it'sjust, you get a pick chill,
totally up to you, and I thinkthat creates much more of a

(01:13:50):
better ecosystem, a betterreputation.
But I think there is a pointhere that we are still leading.
You kind of have to lead theconversation a small bit, right.
It's kind of like if yourgirlfriend asks you where you
want to go for dinner, if you'relike here's every restaurant in
Leeds or here's three that Ithink you'll enjoy and I would
preference this one.

You know, and I would preference this one.
Yeah, you know again writinglike most popular underneath.

You know that story.
You ever heard a story aboutmost popular written?
No, no, go on, oh, you'll lovethis.
So basically it was in.
Is it China or Hong Kong?
I think it was in China.
All the restaurants they allsell.
Every street generally has onetheme of food, right, so one
could be like a certain type ofnoodle.
Next street could be like acertain type of noodle, next
street could be another type ofnoodle, and they're obviously
the exact same and they're allrunning razor thin margins.

(01:14:34):
Yeah, sure one.
This is literally how thishappened.
How it started was onerestaurant literally wrote most
popular under a menu option andthen everyone just started
buying that thing and then thatbusiness just started booming on
that street.
Yeah, yeah, and they justpicked one.
Yeah, shiny thing, make it red.
It's crazy man.
But most popular on that.

Yeah, we had it in our sales pages where, like, I'd
always give two options andthen if you put the box of a
brighter color, it's like you'regoing to go that way.

So same with our Google Docs dude, the, and it's
like.
Well, actually for themastermind it was like
non-activities activities.
The one with activities was afont 14, the other one was font
11.
It's just bigger, yeah and thatwas it.

It's an interesting tool, though, isn't it?

like you, people say that persuasion is like a
dirty word, but actually, if youreally care about getting
people results, you need tolearn this stuff, it's only if
you don't understand them and ifyou're using it in a
manipulative way, right, yeah,if you understand persuasion, to
use it in a manipulative way,then yes, of course it's wrong,
yeah, um.
But if you're doing it in theright way to, again, it's
consultative selling, right?

(01:15:42):
This is not the best productfor you, and I've actually.
You know you do this both ways.
You recommend the lower productto someone, but you also
recommend a better product forsomeone.
I'll give an example.
I have a client.
He's a photographer as apassion, but he's also a pilot.
And this guy this guy fliesplanes.
Bro, how much time does he have?
A fuck, all right.
And he was like I'm going tojoin like this program.

(01:16:03):
And I was like, bro, fulltransparency, you won't be able
to join the calls, you won'thave time to do trainings and
even if you send us overrequests, it's probably not
going to be in a way that we'regoing to get things done.
I was like this is actually abetter option for you.
You'll have one-to-one accesswith us, we can help you and we
can place a few employees inyour team if you need to.
And he's a guy, perfect, and hewas still a beginner and he's

(01:16:25):
like this is way better for meand it was just better fit for
that person.
That's the whole goal ofunderstanding people's actual
problems.
Yep, which is nice, man.
Any final points before we wrapup um on on the sales process,
like what you've seen to beworking really well for you.

Um, I think I prefer being zoomed out of it, man.
I think it's about the longgame.

Yeah.

I think that if you want to be very good at sales,
consistently give yeah you know,like, um, you hit the nail on
the head earlier.
It's like all these six-figurelaunches and consistent revenue.
It's like how much effort areyou putting into your brand?
You know, like, how much areyou giving to your audience and
showing that you care?
And you know how seriouslyyou're taking this stuff because
, um, revenue is just abyproduct of reputation and I

(01:17:14):
think that if you're genuinelyout there having fun, you're
committed to your craft, um,you're serving your audience
like you don't need to worry somuch about the sales process.

You know, like, obviously, learn the tactics,
but the overarching strategy islike do good work and keep going
yeah, if you look at Hormozywhen he launched his most recent
book, like he'd spent years andyears building that goodwill,
that they broke the world recordfor the amount of people on a
fucking webinar and I alwayspoint people towards Hormozy
like love or hate him.

I love him.

I love him, bro.
I wouldn't be here if it wasn'tfor him.
For sure, he's a huge influenceon everyone, and why?

Because he's given so much, like me and my best
friend.
We talk about hormones so muchand it's weird.
He's like a spirit guide for usand I'm like, look, this works.
And there's a lot of people whosay that free value doesn't
work.
And I'm like free value doesn'twork if it's shit.
If you think in short term, youdo it for a month, of course
it's not going to work, and ifyou don't have a way, someone

(01:18:13):
can pay you at the end.
But if you if it's that wholegiveaway all information and
then sell the implementation, ofcourse it works, you know.
So, like I always say, homozyis a fantastic example of just
like give, give, give, give,give.
You made that ask and thenthat's what I'm planning on
doing anyway for the rest of mylife so and think about the
results that he has.

Man like what is like 250 million a year so far
in a private equity firm, sothat result does come as
idiosyncrasies different waysthat you can actually pull
benefits from it benefits.

You didn't realize it, yeah big thank you, brother.

You're a legend man.

All Episodes

#301 Kieran Drew - Why Writing is the Most Valuable Skill for Entrepreneurs in 2025

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Cardiac Cowboys

Crime Junkie

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#301 Kieran Drew - Why Writing is the Most Valuable Skill for Entrepreneurs in 2025