#303 Matt Kelly - He Scaled an Ecom Brand to $20M+ (Here's How) - Kickoff Sessions

Episode Transcript
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Darren Lee (00:00):
What was the main reason, or one of the main
contributing factors for you tobe able to scale so?

Matt Kelly (00:03):
fucking fast.
Like with any brand, having aproduct that clicks in a market
and therefore like theacquisition unit, economics
makes sense.

Darren Lee (00:10):
How much are you spending a month on that?
Half a million.

Matt Kelly (00:12):
Fuck.
Community is just a fluffybullshit term that people use as
an excuse to host runningevents that make no money.
But having said that, I dothink community is probably how
you start to build a bit more ofa cult audience.
The founder is probably how youstart to build a bit more of a
cult audience.

Darren Lee (00:29):
The founder is probably more likely to be the
face at the start, maybe to like20 million in revenue and then,
over time, the brand communityand the brand has more of a life
of its own.
Third podcast, as we chattedearlier, when we started, when
you started, it was likebeginning space goods.
Then you were kind of hackingtogether, bro, scaling it.
And now where are you currentlyat in the business?

Matt Kelly (00:43):
the biggest difference, just fundamentally,
the team like basically it was ayear and two months ago
something we did that pod likemay june 2024 um, yeah, business
is like roughly twice as bigrevenue wise.
But I think the bigger thing isback then, when I was in bali
last year, I was like stressingabout everything working loads.

(01:05):
Now I could just fuck off forsix months and it'd be fine.
So it's definitely I'm notplanning on doing that entirely,
but I think, yeah, it feelslike much more of a machine and
I've definitely probably mindsethas changed a lot, even in the
past year of like I think thewhole like hunched over a laptop

(01:26):
15 hours a day, it's not.
It's not how you get to thenext level.
Like what got you here won'tget you there.
I think that's how you get tolike 10 million revenue maybe,
and there's a lot of guys thatprobably get stuck there,
including my own friends namingtheir names.
I think they just people thatdon't get to the next level.
I think have an inability tohire and properly delegate, but
not just delegate, but like givepeople ownership of stuff.

(01:47):
So now we have a, like I said,a team of 15 employees plus our
agencies and shit.
Um, I have an md who's, I guess, in a way like the operational
ceo of the business, and allthese people have bits of equity
as well, so they are literallyowners, um, but I think that
helps give them like ownershipin terms of their mindset.

(02:08):
It's not perfect, right, becauseit's not like everyone's a
founder, but yeah, I think aswell, as I've spoke about in my
own channel, like even in thevideo I put out the other day,
obviously I'm a venture-backedbusiness.
That does change the dynamicsof things and it kind of forces
you to professionalize earlierthan you may have done otherwise
, and probably even too much.
But then you kind of grow intothat scale because I I thought

(02:31):
our team, I still think a littlebit.
Sometimes our team is maybebloated, but ultimately we're
like building the team to be a50 million pound brand not where
we are now, which is, like youknow, a third of that do you
think those bigger leaps onlycome when you build that bigger
team Like?

Darren Lee (02:48):
is there any?
Was there ever a scenario ofyou getting to that stage where
you're at right now?

Matt Kelly (02:53):
on your own.
Well, yeah, it's an interestingpoint.
I think potentially, but thennot sustainably, because I think
I heard a founder of a brandcalled Gruns or Groons Anyone in
the e-commerce space might haveheard of that.
They've grown to like 100million, like the second year or
something ridiculous in america.
It's like this weird gummybrand, but anyway, that's beside
the point, and he was sayingthey got to 20 million with just
him in one person.
This is in the american market,so you know, biggest scale

(03:15):
whatever.
But and his point was he thinksa lot I think he put a linkedin
post out.
It was worse to the effect ofsaying a lot of brands can get
to that sort of scale, likebasically just hustling, but
then you get stuck there becauseyou haven't invested in the
team.
So I think I could have got tothis point with a smaller team
certainly not by myself, um, butthen I think we'd get stuck

(03:37):
because it wouldn't besustainable for me to just keep
doing everything and not gettinglike proper people in um.
And I think a lot of like e-comfounders kind of like chad
scale, like guys on twitter,like you know.
They sort of chad scale andmaybe hire like a few vas, but
it's still like very reliant onthem and if they died or, you

(03:58):
know, even went away for a week,the whole business would
probably crumble and I thinkthat's probably not a great sign
.
And then these are also thesame people that are talking
about how they're shooting forlike a 50 million pound exit and
it's like, well, it's just notgoing to happen.
Um, so I think, yeah, I thinkyou can get there, but I don't
think it's sustainable, to thenext level probably.
And I also I don't think youcan exit a business that a lot

(04:21):
of people like glorify exits andshit, and I don't necessarily
think anyone even needs an exit.
Like you can cashflow abusiness, fine, but people that
talk about I'm building thisbrand, I want to sell it one day
, blah, blah, blah.
Like name a decent acquisitionwhere the founder was doing
everything.
It doesn't exist, especially inconsumer Like.
If you look at brands like wildcosmetics I always refer to

(04:42):
these guys because I've met thema few times it's like the best
example of like a UK brand.
They went in five years to, Ithink, about 70 million in
revenue and sold it for 230million to Unilever.
That's like a classic consumersuccess story.
Right and their team was like100 people.
Um, a lot of founders wouldprobably hate that, maybe me
included to some extent.
But that's kind of why Ibrought in an MD to sort of

(05:04):
manage a lot of that stuff,because I'm not naturally like
maybe I do have myself discredit, but I don't naturally enjoy
like managing a team, certainelements of it.
I'd rather like do products andbrand stuff.

Darren Lee (05:16):
Before we move any further, I have one short
question to ask you have youbeen enjoying these episodes so
far?
Because, if you have, I wouldtruly appreciate it if you
subscribe to the channel to helpmore business owners grow their
online business today.
I guess it's your own genius,right like?

Matt Kelly (05:30):
you're a fucking super creative, weird, autistic
dude yeah, and then I kind offeel like I've lost a lot of
that because you ended up justhaving to become like a
competent generalist to be.
I always like say, I think Imean a lot of founders in
different industries would saythis about their industry but I
feel like consumers like themost broad skillset.
If you're especially for like asolo founder building a brand,
cause you have to know productfinance, supply chain, marketing

(05:52):
, ads, website stuff, like, andI guess you're doing like most
businesses online, right, butlike you have to become good at
everything.
But yeah, I'm definitely notgreat at most things.
I'd rather do what I didinitially, which was like
product brand, like the more funstuff I guess.
Um, and now I'm finally in aposition where I can, I can do
that and I'm not really doingany of the bullshit anymore.

(06:12):
So I don't do any of the supplychain stuff.
I basically don't touchanything like operational but
even like growth wise.
Now, like I'm not involved infucking landing pages.
Um, obviously I still knowabout all these things, but I
basically have a few directreports which might sound super
corporate and like bullshit andI agree it kind of does on the
outside in, but I definitelyfeel like the business is in a

(06:37):
much stronger place, likemachine wise, like not just the
numbers, but like the ability toactually go to the next level.
Um, I think a lot of foundersprobably never do that and
invest that time because, likeinitially, when you hire a team,
and especially like moreexpensive people, like it's
definitely a hit to the pnl,like in the short term, because,
like you, maybe, maybe youropex was fucking like five

(06:57):
percent previously and now it'slike 15 or whatever, um.
But I also think a lot ofpeople have brands that if they
had a proper team, they'drealize that their unit
economics don't make sensebecause actually, like their pnl
looks good now because it's thefounder working 400 hours a day
yeah, so it's not sustainableanyway, um, and that that works
for a lot of people, but I thinkit works to a certain limit.

(07:19):
I haven't gone to 100 millionyet, but I think if you want to,
you have to think more aboutthe team and also like the one
benefit of.
I made a video talking about,like raising venture money and
so on, and I feel like that getsa lot of hate from people that
know fucking nothing about it.
And, yes, there's pros and cons?
Of course there is.
It's not right for everyone,but one benefit is the network

(07:40):
I've had of meeting people thathave raised money and sold
businesses like.
I've met founders of brands thatsold for hundreds of millions,
and the founders made you know50 to 100 million with their
slice um, and the one thing theytalk about which is basically
the opposite of anyone ontwitter is building a team,
whereas everyone on twittertalks about fucking seven day
click on meta and so well, areyou a media buyer or are you the
founder, and I also.

(08:01):
There's a fine line, though,because I think you do have to
be super close to that stuff,but I think a lot of, and it's
like well, are you a media buyeror are you the founder, and I
also.
There's a fine line, though,because I think you do have to
be super close to that stuff,but I think a lot of people
think like that's how they'regoing to get to like the 100
million point um, and maybe itis for some people, but the
people I spoke to that actuallydone it.
The only thing they speak aboutis the team it seems like a lot
of your.

Darren Lee (08:22):
The way that you think about it is like it's kind
of baked a lot of in a lot ofreality like you seem to look at
things like very likeobjectively, whereas the twitter
bros are guys they're doing ontheir own.
They believe that one daythey'll get the 50 million exit.
But it seems like that with thevcs that you've had, you've had
a lot of like baked in realitynumbers.
It's like all right for us toget to 100 million, even in
revenue, just like sales.

(08:42):
We need to have this muchthroughput, this much ads, this
much ltv, this muchsubscriptions have you?
Have you kind of moved moreinto like a unit economics
business?
Right, I know that you're stilllike super fucking creative,
but it is a mathematicalequation too, oh yeah, so like I
spoke about this in my videoyesterday.

Matt Kelly (08:59):
I spoke to like someone I know I don't think
right here they are becausethey've already watched this and
get offended, but this comesfrom a good place and like they
had had issues with their brandright.
I spoke to like someone I knowI don't want to get wet here.
They are because they'vealready watched this and get
offended, but this comes from agood place and like they had had
issues with their brand rightOver the past few years and and
they'd like the revenue hadfallen off.
I had to get rid of a lot ofthe team and and then they told
me that they'd never had afinance person in the team.
And I was like, hold on, so youwere doing, at one point, like

(09:29):
20 million in revenue and youdidn't have a finance person of
any sort.
But yeah, I was like, well,that's probably why the business
has fallen off.
Um, and that's, like you know,a summary of a lot of issues.
But yeah, I think, since Iraised money, especially not the
only reason, but it pushed meto think more about like having
a financial model and actualbudget and planning and stuff.
I guess a bit more, whereas Ithink a lot of people.
Chad scaling is all good and Istill like love that mindset,
but I don't think you can chadscale to like 50 to 100 million

(09:51):
in revenue.
Maybe some people can and I'mjust fucking retarded and
they're way smarter than me.
I'm sure there is those cases,but yeah, I feel like a lot of
founders just don't understandlike the finance of the business
they're trying to build.
Enough, um, also like in termsof building like a proper
financial model, we've got areally good fractional finance
guy who's a fucking wizard, um,who's done all this basically.

(10:15):
But also just likeunderstanding everyone talks
about like wanting to get anexit, but they ever spoken to an
investment banker that brokersthese deals and actually
understood what an exit lookslike?
Because I speak to all theseguys all the time and I'm not
all the time but like I've gotquite a big network of people at
like investment banks and stuffthat I could message and get an

(10:36):
insight on something.
And I don't mean that like if Ican, oh, look at me, I've got.
I mean like I've met thosepeople because partly because
I've been interested in frominvestors to understand the
market and like the end game, Iguess, because these are the
sort of people that would helpyou actually get a transaction
done, but also partly justbecause I'm really just

(10:57):
interested in the market.

Darren Lee (10:58):
Um, what people are buying at what price for what
reason.
Yeah, I'll fucking read aboutacquisitions instead of watching
netflix.

Matt Kelly (11:06):
I just find it interesting, um, so, yeah, I
think like understanding thatwhole world, and also like we've
got a non-exec on our board whosold a business for 300 million
to nestle.
So you just learn from peoplelike that.
Um, they're always way morehumble than the guy on twitter
that's making 50k a month aswell, which is always the funny
thing 50k a month of revenueyeah, the profit is actually

(11:28):
like four there's like a generalrule of rule of life that I
think people should understand.
It's like if someone talks abouthow rich they are all the time,
they're probably not, and theopposite is also true.
Um yeah, like actuallysuccessful people who've built a
real business, don't go aroundlike flexing fucking watches on

(11:48):
twitter every five minutes doyou think that?

Darren Lee (11:50):
uh, do you think the biggest thing, though, for for
you looking at like an exit, ishow much money you can make with
the equity and the dilutionthat you've taken?
Like, do you consider thatbecause, like, that's obviously
a big part of like?
You know, like, let's say, yousold for 100 million.
If you have like four percentequity left, you do get me as in
like, is that a considerbecause, like, obviously, my

(12:11):
background is my video yesterday.

Matt Kelly (12:13):
I mean again, I'm not saying anyone should fucking
raise money, I'm not likecompletely depends.
I went down that path.
I think it's working for me.
I've learned a lot.
Would I do it again?
Probably, but there's probablya future where I wouldn't do it
again, whatever.
I think every business andfounder and circumstance
different, so I'm not blowingthat trumpet, but I think
ultimately, like I guess if youraise money, it's a smaller

(12:36):
slice for bigger pie.
That's the hope.
Um, that may not be true.
Like you can raise money andfuck a business still, and the
opposite is also true.
You might bootstrap and neverget to scale.
So that's also shit.
But yeah, I guess ultimately,like with me, I decided it felt
like there was a higher chanceof getting to a number that that

(12:58):
I wanted, having gone down thatroute, than not.
Whether that works out to betrue, I can't.

Darren Lee (13:04):
I don't ultimately know, but you kind of designed
the chessboard in the best waypossible, though you know, to
give yourself the best chance,versus just doing it on your own
.
Does that make sense?
If you're just doing it on yourown, it's like I'm kind of
forever capped by my own likeability and who I'm willing to
hire.
But it sounds like a lot ofguys that came in to help you.
They they've already like setthe pad ahead of you.

(13:25):
Does that make sense?
And also, they know what to donext.
I know that you're like stillfucking at the front of it, but
my question for you is like whenyou went from that you know one
mil a month to two mil a monthor up around there, you know,
did they know, like, how to getyou there?
That's the big thing, right?
Or was it you just isn't thepeople I hired yeah or not,
unless you're hired.

Matt Kelly (13:44):
But like the vcs, the investors, the, the guys in
the network that are like, okay,this is what we've truly seen
over and over again to get tothat fucking 50 million dollars
start good investors, likedefinitely don't have all the
answers, but I guess they havegood reference points and
they've seen what's worked inbusinesses that have actually
been successful and like hadexits, not the ones that like
just flex on linkedin, um, but Istill think ultimately, yeah,

(14:07):
like I probably doubted, like myown like invest.
Yeah, investors and advisors,whatever can definitely give
good input.
But I still think, like you asthe founder and the team have to
fucking figure out, like,because the market changes,
right, what worked 10 years ago,so it doesn't necessarily work
now.
Like basic principles are true,like how to hire good people,
like you know, like roughly,what should you be doing with,

(14:28):
like brand spend, all this shit.
But just because, like aninvestor saw a brand that did
well five years ago, doesn'tnecessarily mean they have all
the answers for now.
But yeah, I think I've had goodadvice, um, for the category
I'm in as well, specifically.
But yeah, I mean I still thinklike, ultimately, the founder of

(14:51):
any business is like the keydriving force, right, and the
team, more than like just aninvestor that you maybe speak to
once a month, becauseultimately they're not in the
business.

Darren Lee (15:01):
What was the main reason or one of the main
contributing factors for you tobe able to scale so fucking fast
?

Matt Kelly (15:06):
well, I don't think we've scaled that fast.
To be honest, I've got matesthat have raised no money, that
are way bigger than me, sothere's always a bigger fish,
which is the problem withknowing a lot of successful
people you end up comparing upall the time, but they are in
different categories or markets,whatever.
I guess in this category, in themarket at the time, yeah, it
was scaled pretty quick, um, butdefinitely not the quickest
I've seen.
I mean, ultimately, what's thebiggest factor?

(15:28):
I mean, I think, like with anybrand, like having a product
that clicks in a market andtherefore, like the acquisition
unit, economics makes sense.
That's basically it rightbecause, like in e-com, to scale
, like it's pretty much, howmuch can we afford to acquire,
to spend to acquire a customer,and in our case we're consumable

(15:49):
.
So that's usually like based onyour ltv to cac because, like,
our cac is higher than our firstorder aov, right, so we're not
first order profitable.
A lot of people, oh, you shouldbe whatever, but most
businesses at scale aren'tinumable anyway.
And then ultimately being ableto nail acquisition and for us
that's been largely, but it'sbeen mainly meta.
Now meta is a smaller slice,but now we're doing influencers,

(16:10):
meta, youtube, google, whatever.

Darren Lee (16:12):
Yeah, how has that been, like that kind of shift
into?

Matt Kelly (16:15):
so it's mainly like ugc now as well, or well, I mean
before we only spent on metaand and youtube right and google
as a channel which obviouslyhad a lot of ads and shit anyway
, but now we're doing actualinfluencer marketing how much
are you spending a month on that?

Darren Lee (16:28):
half a million fuck man pounds?
How do you get?

Matt Kelly (16:32):
like maybe a bit more 600k this month I feel like
you know, obviously, well,obviously for econ, but it's
good for amex points, but Idon't think ad spend is a flex,
but it's one part of things.

Darren Lee (16:43):
I guess, but it seems like that to get into like
any really big territory, amajor component for a manager is
ads, I feel like, whether, likewhatever industry, whether it's
e-com info agency, it's justlike there's only well, it's
that condition right, whetherthat's organic or paid.

Matt Kelly (16:59):
But like ultimately, I think, in consumer, the large
part of it has to be paid yeah,is there any way you could
avoid that for ecom, thoughright is there.

Darren Lee (17:06):
Any way.
You could have like a huge likelike a nick bear having his
brand.

Matt Kelly (17:10):
Yeah, I think the only real way to do that is to
be a fucking borderlinecelebrity.
Yeah, and even then thosebrands run ads and it's maybe
not the start, but it's alsogoing to reach a plateau right,
yeah, like, yeah, I'd love tohave a you know, 2 million
followers like Nick bear orwhatever he has, but I don't, um

(17:30):
, at least not right now.
And yeah, it was a thing, likeI mean, those sort of brands are
great but it's very reliant onthe founder right being the face
.

Darren Lee (17:43):
I mean, maybe I'm just, yeah, maybe I'm just
jealous because I'm not amassive fucking influencer that
doesn't need to run ads, but buthave you ever heard of Daniel
Priestley's angle on this whichis like if it is a founder-led
brand in the beginning, or evento exit, like it's still more
valuable than like just tryingto like fucking hack it together
without?
So like, I guess I can'texplain that badly.

(18:03):
But basically, if the l, if thecac is super fucking high or
the opportunity is like you havea founder-led brand and the cac
is lower, it's like someonewho's going to buy it would
actually preference thefounder-led one, not always, but
maybe in the beginning whenit's growing.
So it's like there's nothing,there's no real detriment, at
least in the beginning, to thebrand.

Matt Kelly (18:23):
Yeah, no, I agree.
I think, like the way I'veheard it spoken about um, like
there's a brand called tallowand ash, then if you've seen
them, they're like they're blownup in the uk.
I've met those guys a few times.
They actually have the sameinvestor as me.
They're fucking bigger than us,by the way, and I'm very
jealous.
That category is also thecategory that my mate's brand is
in in fucking um, the Dutchmarket.

(18:44):
So, yeah, like cleaning andfucking like modern and premium
cleaning stuff is a bangingcategory right now for anyone
watching um.
But they were talking about thisat this AGM we did in in summer
and I was asking her like she'sone of the founders, she's like
the face of the brand, and oneof the questions was like oh,
how do you think that developedover time?
And like the short summary wasand this was an opinion shared

(19:08):
by others as well as like found,the founder is probably more
likely to be the face at thestart, maybe to like 20 million
in revenue and then, over time,like the brand community and the
brand has more of a life of itsown because the founder could
be involved but probably won'tbe like the only face forever.
Um, there's probably exceptionsto that.
I mean, like nick bear'sprobably a good example.

(19:29):
He, like probably is moreinvolved than a lot of founders,
um, but then there's alsobrands.
Like you know, gymshark's agood example, like everyone
knows the founder, but it's notlike the brand's not about him
at this point did he sell it?

Darren Lee (19:40):
Did he sell his equity, or am I imagining things
?

Matt Kelly (19:43):
No, they did a PE deal, like four years ago when
the other founder sold out.

Darren Lee (19:46):
So when Ben Francis took a step out, or is he still?
No?
No, Ben Francis is still in.

Matt Kelly (19:50):
Oh, okay, I thought he sold for like a hundred
million.

Darren Lee (19:52):
I thought he took a step back too, but okay,
nevermind.

Matt Kelly (19:55):
Don Hewitt, the CEO, the ex-CEO about a month ago.
He's an interesting guy.
He made like more money thanmost founders and he wasn't even
a founder.
So that just proves how bigthat business was.
But yeah, anyway, what was Isaying?
I mean, yeah, I thinkfounder-led.
I think founder-led is probablyan advantage for most brands
these days, even just because,like it gives you like something

(20:17):
to talk about in ads.
I mean, mean, I feature in likesome of our stuff.
But I wouldn't say we're like afounder-led brand because,
partly because the customer baseisn't really like it's not just
me, it's more like 35 pluswomen, and also I've just chosen
not to go down that route.
I don't want to be likeentirely attached, um, but yeah,

(20:39):
I've seen it work both waysright, like again coming back to
wild.
But this is a good examplebecause they made a lot of money
.
Like the founders were notremotely the face of that brand,
but they made fucking money, um.
So you don't have to be like afucking influencer to run a
brand.
You can also just be a reallygood operator and bring in the
right people that can do thosebits you mentioned.

Darren Lee (20:58):
Like community as well, though do is community
tough to build in fuckingconsumer products?

Matt Kelly (21:03):
yeah, I feel like I'm definitely having nailed
that I mean but who really caresabout?

Darren Lee (21:09):
like you know, it's not.

Matt Kelly (21:10):
Yeah, a bit of me thinks like community is just a
fluffy bullshit term that peopleuse as an excuse to like host
running events that make nomoney.
Um, but having said that, I dothink community is probably how
you start to build a bit more ofa cult audience, like.
One brand that's great at thisis Pure Sport in London.
I know the founder of thatbrand.
He's also got the sameinvestors as us now and we were

(21:31):
like joking that we're like theopposite because we were like a
performance marketing only brand, but now we're trying to be a
bit more like we're doing likeevents and shit, and they were
the opposite.
They did a fuckload of runclubs.
They basically invented the runclub thing, but they were doing
no performance marketing and wewere like three times bigger
than them and it was like, ohyeah, like we just never really
invested in acquisition and my,my attitude was how the fuck can
you grow a brand if, like, allyou're doing is run clubs

(21:54):
because they've gone like deepbut not very wide, whereas I
guess you could think about likewe'd gone wider but maybe not
very deep with, like, a lot ofour customers?
Um, but having said that, Istill think the best way to
build community is just getcustomers.
Um, the one thing that I alwaysfind interesting there's a lot
of new brands that pop up,especially like sort of London
consumer scene.
I'm gonna name no names here,but there's a few that come into

(22:16):
mind and they're really good atand I've met some of these
founders.
I've said this to their facebut like they're really fucking
good at all the foundry content,like the cool, quirky stuff,
like I don't know.
Maybe they they wrap a fuckingRange Rover in their logo and
everyone loves it on LinkedIn.
Maybe they get some likeorganic press.
And then you find out thenumbers and it's like oh, that's

(22:36):
10% of what we did just forpaid ads in the first six months
.
And then it's like what you'retrying to optimize for?
You try to optimize lookingcool on linkedin, you try to
optimize for actually growingthe business and they're not
always mutually exclusive, butit feels like often in the early
stages with certain foundersthey are and I think that comes
from a place of and I'm notbashing that entirely, because I
think a lot of that is valuablebut I think when combined with

(22:57):
performance marketing and againit's kind of the opposite route
we've taken.
So now we're trying to do moreof that and they probably need
to do performance marketing, butI think a lot of it.
I would argue that just gettingcustomers matters more than
fucking doing really sick likeevents and stuff at the start.
That's just my view, um, but Ithink a lot of founders probably
care too much about likerunning a cool brand versus

(23:21):
running like, and again, it kindof depends what your goal is.
You want to build a lifestylebrand that you do purely for
creative purposes.
And I spoke to a fan of theother week about this, a guy
I've got to know on, like, Iguess, the internet.
I never met him, but he's got acool brand.
That's like much earlier stage.
Now he's trying to raise moneyand I said to him why are you
trying to raise money?
Because he was very much like Iwant to do this for like 20

(23:42):
years.
I was like, oh, we shouldn'traise money then because they
want to sell it in five yearsand you're going to have loads
of, I guess, like corporatepressure.
And again, there's no like rightor wrong, but it's just being
like honest with yourself, likewhy are you in this game like,
do you want to run like?
Are you like the artistic guythat just wants to spend all day
like designing products anddoing sick content and you'd be

(24:02):
happy if you got to 3 millionrevenue and stayed there for 10
years, and that's probablybetter route for most people.
Or do you want to build acategory leader, scale it as
hard as you can and hopefullymake 50 million quid, and
there's a lot of routes that arein between that or whatever.
But like, yeah, and you don'tnecessarily have to know that up

(24:23):
front, but I think when you godown the route of like trying to
raise money from investors, youprobably want to be aware of
the realities of that, which iswhat I said to this guy, and he
was a bit like, oh yeah, haven'tyou thought about that?
Um, and I like definitely wantto build a sick brand.
I think we're doing that, butI've also I've always come at it
from like I guess trying to bea bit more commercial with it,

(24:44):
like, which is often thedichotomy of scaling, because,
like sometimes the shit that Ithink would be really cool and
there's loads of things I thinkwould be really cool I just know
they make no financial sense.
I don't do them, um, so thenyou end up with a brand that I
think our brand is cool.
But do I think it's as cool aswhen I launched it and it was
like a bit more, I guess, designled rather than performance?

(25:05):
That probably not.
Um, we are now doing a brandrefresh which I think hopefully
gets the balance right againabout being a bit more edgy
again, I guess.
Um, but that might backfire andlike ultimately would I rather
it look cool and be smaller, orlook slightly less cool but be
bigger.
Probably that one.

Darren Lee (25:24):
Pushing the boundaries less because you need
to hit mass market.
Yeah, exactly Cause if you lookat a lot of again, like
Gymshark.

Matt Kelly (25:30):
I mean, it's just an easy example, so I'm using it.
But like when they launchedthey were like hardcore
bodybuilding, brand Right, and Idon't know the founders at all,
but like I imagine thatprobably felt more natural to
them and it was like them andtheir bros in the gym and it was
sick.
And now you could argue it'skind of a bit vanilla, like,
it's kind of for everyone a bitmore inclusive.
They don't really do thehardcore bodybuilding stuff,

(25:50):
although I think they've kind ofcome back to doing that now as
part of it because they got abit backlash.
But the point is it's to go big.
Sometimes you have to be a bitmore mass market and by default
that's sometimes like less cool,exactly yeah.
So I, yeah, I kind of thinkabout that a lot because like
yeah, is it a good decisionbecause I think it's cool, or is

(26:12):
it a good decision because it'sactually going to grow the
business?

Darren Lee (26:14):
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(26:37):
smart entrepreneurs are buildinga business in 2025.
I'm curious, like from yourobservations.
You've obviously worked a lotof people as well, just like a
lot of your friends or people.
You've seen how profitable canyou have an econ brand that's
like, let's say, like one tothree million a year if you
compare it to like Infor agency,where, like you could literally
have seven.
But like you're not reallymaking that much money, like, do

(26:58):
you get me?

Matt Kelly (27:06):
Yeah, I think there's take home profit.
There's a few things on that Ithink the first thing is like
generally regardless, like agood econ brand might be 10 to
20 profit, like at any scale.
Like if you look at gymsharkthey're like fucking three
percent profit last year butwhat I mean is they're so
fucking big.
They're like three percent of100 million my next point is so
even if you're super let's sayyou're 30 percent ebitda profit
at you know three million okay,so you're making a million, a
quid, a year.
But e-com is a physical productbusiness.

(27:27):
So firstly, you're reinvestingall of that into stock to grow
and even then you probably needa fucking credit line from like
way far here or the bank orsomething, because the cash
requirements for any business ine-com, especially at the start,
are pretty aggressive.
Secondly, any money you do make, even if you can pull some out
like, you're probably better offjust keeping it in the business

(27:47):
.
I mean a for tax reasons, but bbecause unless you're at the
point where there's likemillions on the balance sheet,
you probably shouldn't bepulling out money anyway really,
other than like maybe a salaryand then.
So that's the two things Ithink basically like yeah,
there's.
I think people misunderstandlike how illiquid econ brands

(28:09):
are for like at least the firstfew years so it's not really a
lifestyle.

Darren Lee (28:12):
It's not really a lifestyle business, though.

Matt Kelly (28:14):
That's the thing it's not like at all, I think.
I think info and agency are waybetter business models for 99
of people but just for makinglike actual money.

Darren Lee (28:23):
Like there's a guy I know literally here quite well
who's been doing kind of anall-weather brand but, he's been
battling it for like 10 years.
He's literally been battling itfor 10 years and I just met him
recently and he's a guy man I'mbuilding a brand to like
fucking move into from it youknow, he's just been feeling
that pressure.

Matt Kelly (28:41):
E-com is the hardest business in the world, like
physical products way worse thanlike anything.

Darren Lee (28:46):
I'll leave it at I think agency is easier.

Matt Kelly (28:48):
I think info is easier I think primarily because
there's no physical productyeah, I think software is easier
, especially with like ai yeah Ithink it's actually technically
easier because it's I'm sureit's harder in other ways, but
when you remove like justphysical fucking products from
the equation, it probably gets abit simpler.
So my view is like and theyspeak a bit about this a lot on
like the operators pod foranyone that knows that with like
sean from ridge and stuff andhe has quite a similar attitude

(29:09):
to me um, like you shouldn't doecom unless you genuinely like
like physical products and don'tdo ecom.
And like ecom is like a funnyterm because, like people say,
ecom is like well, kind of justlike building brands and like
drop shipping is maybe a bitdifferent so that you can
definitely build a slightlybetter cash flow vehicle from
that because you're not buyingstock and stuff.

(29:29):
But that has its own problems.
But like e-com in general withlike physical products it's not.
I don't think you should dothat purely if you want to make
certainly like short to mid-termmoney.
Having said that, I thinkthere's if you build the right
consumer brand using wild as anexample again, like you know,
those founders made 150 millionplus like between them there's

(29:50):
two of them because you knowthey had investors and stuff.
But you can make fucking moneyif you build a great brand but,
like with a lot of things youknow, that's the top, it's the
top.
0.001 the same in info right,like something like 50 million
quid a year, but the vastmajority probably make 100k a
year.
True, it's just the margins areway higher.
I think there's less risk instuff like info.
Yeah, I often think like maybeI should have just gone into

(30:13):
like being a full-time fuckingguru when my last business
failed and I started the YouTubechannel.
But I just wanted to build abrand and like yeah, I think 99%
of people in info are makingmore money than me.
In the short term, for sure, ofcourse, but I believe, in the
next few years, with the rightbrand and getting a deal done, I
think you can surpass them.

(30:34):
But again it just yeah.
That's a long way of saying Idon't think ecom is the best
path for like founder liquidityin the short to midterm, if ever
, for a lot of people what'syour thoughts on a high ticket
drop shipping like fuckingsaunas for 20k?
I think it's pretty genius.
Yeah, um, who's that guy thatdoes that guy called?

Darren Lee (30:54):
brooke.
Is it brooke?
Sorry?

Matt Kelly (30:55):
yeah, I know brooke very well I know he did that, he
he taught that in his infostuff dude they're doing.

Darren Lee (31:00):
Uh, I didn't look four million a month in info
really and they have like, theyhave like the info for teaching
how to do shiny object syndrome.

Matt Kelly (31:09):
This is the problem.

Darren Lee (31:10):
But what's funny was like like brooke's super
screwed on right, like they havea huge team and they have 30 to
40 people and then they haveone to two software companies
that does like supplier researchand shit, so they're all using
that.
They're pro scaling the shitout of the info.
It's in around that three tofour mark roughly yeah, roughly,

(31:32):
they're trying to get up tofour.
I'll go back to my podcast inJanuary with them to just think
about it, to hear about it.
But yeah, it's in around thatrange.

Matt Kelly (31:39):
And again I hear that I'm in the wrong industry.
I should just do fucking info.

Darren Lee (31:43):
But again the thing is that, like what we discussed
before was like in general,you're not, you, you're not
going to get a huge multiple ofthat.

Matt Kelly (31:54):
You know, even like you can sell, I guess you don't
need to, though, right, ifyou're making 10 million quid
profit a year doing info, yeah,which is obviously rare but
doable Do that for a few years.
You've got your exit.

Darren Lee (32:07):
I remember the mindset or like the kind of
shift and reframe for agenciesand info was like you want to be
making an exit, getting an exitevery single year, right for
the most part, and then likejust cash.
But then like, like fulltransparency, man, like you can
sell an agency, like, as in Iknow several brokers and
actually, funny enough, acquireno micro acquire.
They've actually moved intoselling agencies too and selling

(32:29):
info, so you can sell an infobusiness on acquirecom.
They never said that, but it'son the landing page.
They pivoted towards it.
Now, bro, like fulltransparency, that the multiple
is going to be like one Xrevenue, like literally one X
revenue, one to two, that's it.
But if you're on the way out andlike a lot of guys are just
fucking burnt out, that it'slike all right.

(32:49):
It's kind of like a hot potato.
I'm just like done.
I'm just kind of done.
I'm just kind of off lifted.
Things are a little bitdifferent than what they used to
be.
Obviously, the twitter bros areyou can't sell it.
But it's like if you wanted tooffload it, especially the
private equity, you couldprobably just fucking get rid of
it.
There is a bit of that, youknow.
So, with your like situationnow with the products and so on.

(33:12):
I remember when we last spokeyou were going like with
multiple SKUs and shit, but thenyou were kind of saying that
that was a bad idea.
And then you were thinking andnow you've kind of gone a bit
broader again like how do youthink about how you're going to
actually really hit those hugenumbers?

Matt Kelly (33:24):
yeah, I think there's basically three ways to
scale an e-commerce business,product channel and market, so
like products, obviously, doingyour product channel, I mean
like going into retail, goinginto amazon, both of which we've
done and are doing more of andthen marketers.

Darren Lee (33:36):
How does that feel?
By the way, when you went intoHolland and Barrett, that was
pretty cool, I mean that waslike two years ago, I mean yeah
retail has grown a lot.

Matt Kelly (33:43):
Retail is.
I think you need to be inretail in consumer brands,
especially like consumable stuffhow does the economics for that
work?

Darren Lee (33:50):
so like you fucking fucking offloaded to harlem and
barrett like how do you?
Because they're always doingsales and shit, right, this is
probably such a novice question.

Matt Kelly (33:58):
I mean the economics in retail are way better than
d2c for us currently, but that'sbecause we have a d2c product
that's selling well in retail.
If you were doing, say, acanned drink, the margins would
be fucking awful, but it's a,it's a volume play at that point
.
So, yeah, currently, like themargins, retail are miles better

(34:18):
than d2c.
But d2c is what drives retail,because the d2c eyeballs is the
marketing machine.
So it's not really like fair tolook at them in isolation.
But yeah, like retail right nowis like 10 percent of revenue,
but I think eventually I want itto be 50, 60 percent and with
the new well, the, the next stepof like products I'm doing I
think that I think that isrealistic.

(34:40):
Um, yeah, we've got a few likeretail specific products coming
in and also I guess this is likeultimately thinking a bit like
reverse engineering.
Like how do we like sell thisbusiness one day and buyers at
any, any big scale like you needto be?
You know omni-channel, whichyou know means d2c and retail,

(35:00):
at the very least, probablyamazon as well.
But retail is more important.
Like, if you look at all of thebig acquisitions in the american
market, like the past year theywere all all the energy drink
acquisitions.
So well, not energy drink, butjust like canned drinks in
general.
There was that alani new brandI think sold for like a billion
to celsius and that wasn't, Iguess I say it wasn't a big
brand, it was like 300 millionrev, but like in america, that's

(35:22):
just like distribution normal.
Yeah, there was um.
Who's the one ghost they soldum to gonna get it wrong.
They sold to one of those.
I think it was like two billionghost was christian guzman,
right?
Well, he was one of the faces,not the founder interesting
ghost.
I don't know the exact details,don't quote me, but they used to

(35:43):
do like fucking protein powdersand shit.
Then they did a deal with somebeverage company might have even
been pepsi or something um andthen they went into energy
drinks, which is when it justexploded still like 600 million
revenue.
The american market is justdifferent, especially in retail.
Then there was poppy, which isthat it just exploded.
It's doing like 600 millionrevenue.
The American market is justdifferent, especially in retail.
Then there was Poppy, which isthat prebiotic soda that sold
for 1.9 billion to Pepsi a fewmonths ago.
So, yeah, so why don't you?

(36:04):
That's the kind of scale youcan reach, especially in America
, in retail, with especiallylike canned drinks, which we may
or may not be going into soon.
D or may not be going into soon.

Darren Lee (36:13):
Dumb question, but why not just put?

Matt Kelly (36:16):
the focus on America .
Yeah well, it's not a dumbquestion.
It's a question I've askedmyself for a while.
I think there's some nuance tothat that a lot of like Twitter
bros again don't quiteunderstand, because it's never
actually scaled a business tojust say, oh, I'm dropshipping
in America.
I mean, the honest answer is, Ikind of wish I'd launched in.
Competitors are there, like allthe functional categories, way
bigger, they're way moreestablished.
But having said that, we aredoing america soon, by the way,

(36:40):
but I didn't launch with it.
Maybe I'll regret that for therest of my life.
I think there's something to besaid for being number one in a
smaller market versus beingnumber seven in a bigger market,
especially like again like it'snot all about selling the
business, but I think that sortof stuff definitely helps.
It's better to go deeper andown the uk market than be number
seven in america.
Not saying that it would be thecase, but that is a factor.

(37:03):
I think.
The other thing is obviouslyit's uneconomics, like
fundamentally, scaling comesdown to cac.
Cac will be two to three timeshigher in america.
The ltv might also be two threehigher, but it's a different
margin profile.
So we'd have to figure out thatthat works.
We just haven't we literallyhaven't run an American ad.
So it would be the like I'lljust spend money for a month and

(37:24):
see if it makes sense.

Darren Lee (37:26):
Could you find an American supplier?

Matt Kelly (37:28):
Yeah, we already have like an American supplier
that we're kind of tearing thisup with and I think the main
thing is just having productthere.
But, and I think, the mainthing is just having product
there, but you can do that witha 3pm in like a week, so it's
pretty simple.
We just haven't done it as likea focus thing.

Darren Lee (37:41):
Sorry, why would the CAC be higher?

Matt Kelly (37:44):
Like if you got a right, you know it's a much
bigger market and it's way morecompetitive and fundamentally,
cpms are higher.
So it might not be, but I wouldbet like 90% Cac will be
significantly higher than the uk.
Interesting, it's just a moreexpensive market, everything's
more expensive, but, like I said, like spending power is way
higher as well yeah, yeah so itjust basically changes the whole

(38:06):
economics of the business.

Darren Lee (38:07):
I mean, if cac was twice as high but ltv was also
twice as high, then that's finebut shouldn't you look at it
more from a percentage basisthan a number basis, because of
if you're spending more moneybut if the percentage, like the
margin, is still solid becauseLTV is high?

Matt Kelly (38:20):
Yeah, exactly, you just you don't know until you've
really run the business for ayear, especially in like a
subscription business, you get apretty good idea pretty soon.
The other benefit obviously isjust the fucking market's way
bigger.
So I've got a friend who's gota brand I've got too many
fucking friends at scaling so Igenuinely always feel stupid but
he's doing like nine million amonth for the brand that's like

(38:42):
a year old in America.
And he said to me and I thinkhe genuinely meant it he said
like the numbers we're doing inthe UK and way more impressive
like relatively but is it yourand he's like?
and he said well, and that said,what you should do America,
because I don't know, a 10million pound brand in the UK is
probably like a 50 millionpound brand in America, just

(39:02):
purely based on scale, like youcould do the whole of Europe, I
think econ wise is smaller thanAmerica but it's not the story
of Reebok, right?

Darren Lee (39:09):
this is Reebok story 101.
They were like in the UK?

Matt Kelly (39:11):
I don't know.
It's alright to be fair.

Darren Lee (39:12):
I actually have a podcast with Joel Foster the
founder.
They were in the UK and theywere just kind of fucking
figuring it out.
They were putting the shoestogether like Birmingham or
somewhere shit like that.
And then they went to America,found a load of hot chicks in LA
, literally gave them the shoesand just blew the fuck up.
He was doing influencermarketing in the 60s and 70s.
He would just find hot chicks,put them on the ASICs fucking

(39:36):
catalog and you just see a bunchof like 10s wearing ASICs,
wearing Reeboks Not the ASICscatalog, but it was the run, it
was American Runners catalog andit was just yeah, like that was
literally the kind of mentalmodel.
Now, obviously, I know this islike fucking 60 years ago, but
what I'm trying to say is likebut what I'm trying to say is
like the product's obviouslygood and you can obviously

(39:57):
fucking figure it out, as wellas an app out of it too, which
is like maybe it's just like athe way to get more revenue not
necessarily more profit, butmaybe just like more revenue?

Matt Kelly (40:08):
yeah, definitely, I've thought about it a lot.
I think now is a better time todo that.
But yeah, arguably I shouldhave just launched a business in
America from day one.
So when I do the next brand,eventually I'll probably just do
that.

Darren Lee (40:18):
It's funny because, like we had an ads guy who got
rid of them, but with the adnerds, like they have a lot of
issues in America for adsbecause they're like, oh, it's
too big.
You know, you mentioned it's sobig.
So the feedback that they get,that I was getting about our ads
, was oh, you just, you justmiss a lot of people in america
so it's like you're, when you'rereally hitting, like miami new
york yeah la scottsdale.

(40:42):
Yeah, and that's it kind of likeit.
I don't know, it's just likethis huge, just I don't know,
it's the same with everything.
Right, you just have to fuckingdo it just do it spend the
money and then be like okay.

Matt Kelly (40:53):
So yeah, we haven't done it yet but, I, definitely
want to do it.
So nice man, maybe I'm just anidiot, definitely not, but it's
coming soon?

Darren Lee (41:01):
definitely, definitely not.
At the very start of theconversation you said about the,
the mindset change.
You spent half a million amonth on ads, like how did you
get comfortable with just like?
How did you develop as a personto do that right, because it's
not like you have to change,obviously to make those quantum
leaps too, because you're thefucking founder right, you got
to be careful, you got to beable to handle the extra level
of pressure.

Matt Kelly (41:22):
Yeah, well, I think on on like scale and spend.
Obviously, you just do itgradually, right.
You go from spending 10 grand amonth to spending more and
hopefully we'll spend fivemillion a month eventually, um,
purely because of amex points.
That'd be quite nice, wouldn'tit?
Um, yeah, I think I don't knowreally, I still feel like I
don't really know what I'm doing, but I'm just kind of winging
it and maybe more willing toadmit that than most people.

(41:44):
Um, but I obviously do knowwhat I'm doing.
I just like genuinely adoptthat mindset.
I'm always a beginner.
Um, yeah, I think the main shiftin like the last year at least,
which I mentioned at the start,was maybe just, I think I spent
way too long like focusing onlike little bullshit.
That wasn't like high leverageand like it's kind of obvious.

(42:05):
But I think a lot of founders,and definitely me included, like
you glorify the trenches of oh,I'm working 18 hours a day and
you're actually not working 18hours a day.
When people say that, they meanlike they're working 13 hours a
day, but anyway, it's besidethe point and like almost I was
definitely in that space of likeoh, this is like, if it's not
hard, I'm, if I'm not hating it.
I'm not fucking like doingenough, but then it's like you

(42:27):
create leverage leverage throughpeople and like money,
basically.
So you could argue now I'mdoing way more like through
people, but I'm personallyprobably working a little less
but working on more importantthings, I guess.
So, like what's a good example?
I mean like someone could.

(42:48):
I mean like even I did a callwith someone like the other week
, actually like consulting call,and he was doing decent numbers
and he was like I'm spendingall my time like dealing with
customer service and shit.
I was like what the fuck areyou dealing with customer
service?
You're doing like 600k months.
It wasn't like a small, liketiny business and I was like you
could spend a week or even amonth finding a really good

(43:11):
person just to manage all thatshit and then never look at it
again and it's like, oh yeah, Ihaven't thought of that.
I was like I'm not a genius,but that to me feels quite
obvious.
Um, so yeah, I guess that'sprobably like been the main
thing is like just learning howto build leverage through hiring
decent people, right, and thenletting them run with it.
Um, and that definitely took mea while to get my head around,

(43:33):
because even when I startedhiring people, more people, and
like proper people, not justlike fucking VAs that this kind
of sounds bad, but like VAs thatprobably you know could only do
like what they're told, and nowI'm hiring people that like
tell me what we're doing, whichis obviously better.
But even when I started hiringpeople like that, I definitely

(43:54):
had a tendency to micromanage orwant to want to be involved in
everything.
So if I don't feel, sometimes Ifeel like, ah, like I'm not
doing enough today, I'm not likereplying to enough slack
messages.
But then it's like, well, I'vehired this MD to run the
business.
He tells me like please, likejust take a week off.
And I'm like, ah, fuck, I couldactually do that.
But, um, so, yeah, I guess I'mtrying to focus on like higher

(44:19):
leverage stuff, and it obviouslyseems obvious, but I think so
many people get stuck and theynever actually change.
They're like still justgrinding so much and all the
little stuff.
Um, so I think, yeah, a benefitof at least like.
From my perspective, one benefitof like having investor

(44:39):
pressure is that it's forced meto professionalize sooner, which
has then, like made me bring inmore people, which at the start
seemed like, oh, I don't needall these people, I just want to
like run it myself with like mytwo, two original hires, and
like we'll just be a super leanteam.
But then how's that?
That's not going to besustainable, um, to get to like

(45:00):
a really big scale.
So I kind of just fullyaccepted that my role is going
to change and I'll probably bereally shit at it for a while
because I'm like I'm so used tolike doing everything, not like
in the last year, but like doingeverything like the first year
or so and then doing like a lotof things, but now it's like I
don't really don't really doanything executional.

(45:20):
Um, yeah, it is good.
I'm like obviously trying to dofigure out what I should.
I say I mean, I'm still likeI'm not trying to focus more
like product stuff, but eventhen it's like I'll come up with
the idea and then give it tosomeone to make it happen, which
in itself is quite hard anyway,because then you become more of
like learning how to managepeople.
Like I just hired this likefounder coach person who's like

(45:40):
a leadership coach or whatever,which to me I'm like so cynical
of all this stuff.
But I'm like finally, like Idon't know my brain's finally
mature to the fact that thatstuff actually is important.
I've literally only decidedworking with them, what's he
having with them?
Well, they're a lady.
What is she having with them?
Did you say he?
I don't know what you said.
Yeah, well, yeah, I guesstrying to figure out Probably

(46:05):
like how to manage a team.

Darren Lee (46:07):
Why do you think you struggle with that?

Matt Kelly (46:08):
Because I always feel a bit alien with, like
people that aren't founders.
It sounds ridiculous.
I mean, I've said this to myown, to my own team members, but
I've never had a normal jobever.
Well, I like worked in bars andshit, but I never like a full
time, proper job and I basicallyonly ever like hung around with
like founder types, which haspros and cons.

(46:31):
But then you obviously startbuilding a team and like, by
definition, those people are notfounders.
So I think, learning how to getthe most out of people that
ultimately, while theydefinitely care, they don't have
the same incentives as you asthe founder and yeah, you can
give people equity and stuff,but like ultimately they're not.

(46:52):
They're not going to make tensof millions if the business
sells right and that's fine, butlike so by default they're
probably going to be slightlyless emotionally invested, but
they're also people are drivenby different things, like they
want to do a great job and havepurpose, but they also want to
have their fucking weekends andstuff, and like I naturally I
guess I'm not used to that.

(47:12):
But learning how to get the mostout of people and not alienate
everyone by being like how doyou the thing I struggle with
most actually is how do you keepthe founder like intensity and
like startup intensity whilealso not like alienating
everyone that isn't ultimately afounder and probably isn't used
to that level of like OCD andspeed and you don't want to like

(47:36):
fully lose that.
But you also have to recognizethat it's not like a day one
scrappy startup anymore.
You want to keep a lot of thatenergy for sure, like I don't
want to become fucking corporateand slow, like we're still only
15 people, we're still tiny inthe grand scheme of things.
But yeah, I'm trying to figurethat out basically.

Darren Lee (47:54):
I guess, like it's looking at what actually
motivates people.
What do they want, though?
What do they actually want?
They could just be happy to bearound you, right?
And this is a big thing whereyou're like the leader who
actually coaches them and givesthem like that's, it's a fucking
young guy, he's like 19, he'slike well, it was math that
changed my life when I wanted toget into this space, and now,

(48:15):
five years later, looking back,and they're like yeah, I learned
that, so I learned so much frombeing in space goods.
I think, like that is morevaluable than the salary you can
give them, and that's a hugepart for me, by the way is like
the guys want to be around, theywant to learn, and they
actually want to fucking learn,not just like learn bullshit,
but they're like oh, this is howlike a business works, this is
how you get clients, this is howyou get customers, so you
retain them.

(48:35):
I think that's more valuablethan the money you can give them
, because you don't even givethem so much money, right?
Yeah, the execution layer oftasks.

Matt Kelly (48:43):
Yeah, I agree, I think I've definitely gone down
the path of hiring quite anexpensive team Just because
we've based the team in London,I guess.
Just because we've based theteam in London, I guess, which I
don't think is necessarily abad thing.
But yeah, I think people yeah,I mean like I think how do I say

(49:07):
I'm trying to say withoutsaying the wrong thing I think
people in my team definitelyvalue money, but I think they
also value like being involvedin a fast growth startup where
they actually get to like ownstuff.
Like I say to anyone that hirelike if you want to be like a
cog in a machine like this isn'tgoing to work.
Um, we need people that canlike own their section of the
business.
It's also thing like, especiallylike a small team.

(49:28):
Like there should be no fuckinglike middle management or any
of this shit.
There's obviously like somelike seniority, like I've got a
head of growth that manages ateam of like seven people in the
growth team that reporting tohim, etc.
But I'm not into all this.
Oh, it's not in my jobdescription so I won't do it
because I I'm not saying there'sanyone on the team that's like
that, but I've had people in thepast that were like that and it
didn't work out that's fuckinghuge man.

Darren Lee (49:50):
It's it's ability to figure.

Matt Kelly (49:51):
It's like such a corporate mindset.
You know it's like hold on now.
Like it's a startup business,like yeah, it could live or die
in the next like few months,based on what we do.

Darren Lee (50:00):
So it's not fucking pwc grad scheme and also you
don't know what they need to doto get me.
Sometimes it's like, yeah,we're, we're going into america,
we know we have like thispillar, this pillar, this pillar
, but at the same time, no onefucking knows what's going to
happen yeah, I almost think likejob titles and startups are
like borderline pointless.

Matt Kelly (50:16):
So obviously you have to have like that's a b1.
But like there's someone on ourteam who's shit hot at her job,
doing like a watch, I'll justI'll just say what a job is.
So she's a creative strategistI don't sure watch this, but I
think she's like really good,but now she's doing stuff.
She was hired ultimately tolike run our ad production, I
guess, but now she's doing stuffthat's like way beyond that.

(50:39):
Like fucking, she's involved inlike the brand refresh.
She's doing a lot of likewebsite stuff, um, but she's
just really stepped up to it andshe probably deserves like a
fucking pay rise at some point.
But, um, because she's steppedup so much, but yeah, like
that's an example.
Like every job is, it's goingto involve stuff that maybe

(51:01):
wasn't initially expected, butfor the right person, that that
should be why I think workinglike a startup or scale up
people need to realize howdifferent that's going to be to
like working in a big corporate,say like a pwc or any of these,
and they're usually quitedifferent people, um, wildly
yeah wildly.

Darren Lee (51:19):
I think, um, a good way to kind of frame it, though,
is like you want to hold on tothose people that are killers,
because you've probably seenthis in e-com I've definitely
seen this and just like thefucking online business space,
that a lot of these guys who aresupposedly doing good numbers,
they're shit people.
People, you know, taking careof people, they're just
generally shit.
Like I know a lot of people whoare like big creators and like
I would never work with them.

(51:40):
They just they just can'tmanage people, so I think a part
of like your evolution is justlike you getting better at
managing people, because you'relike all right, I think it's a
skill, like anything else, but Ifeel like a lot of I'm not very
good at it.
Yeah, creators, fucking founderpeople, they don't, they don't
do that.
That's why they're likesolopreneurs and like.
That's where the solopreneurthing really kind of picked up
was, because it was like oh, Ican be this like in cell

(52:02):
introvert yeah and just bring ina VA from the Philippines I
call it a $4 a day VA and it'slike why is my business not
going?
It's growing.
It's like, bro, you literallyspend.
They don't even have a fuckingcomputer.
Bro, you know, they're inManila with no computer in a
cave it is different, like kindof it's just different
objectives big time, you knowyeah, I think, yeah, a big part

(52:26):
of big time.

Matt Kelly (52:27):
You know, yeah, I think, yeah, a big part of
managing people is.
Just, I'm not really good at ityet, but I think being able to
give feedback, and give likeconstructive or negative
feedback, is actually quite hardlike I think, a lot of people
like even like when I first hadto like fire someone, I was so
nervous just like five years agoor something but different

(52:50):
business, but even that like I'mnot saying you should want to
get better at that, but well, Iguess you should actually.
But like hopefully it's notthat common because you should
be getting the hires right, butthere's always gonna be a bit of
that, I think.
Learning how to give feedbackwithout you know making it
personal or whatever, um, andalso just be clear on, like what
people should be doing.
Often something can be solvedby just having a conversation

(53:12):
about it.

Darren Lee (53:14):
Tell me more about the decision to the idea of like
leaving the UK.
Do you think?
I was back in the UK for apodcast in May and, like you
know, there's lots of differentopinions of the UK.
Like what was your kind ofobservation going through some
of those heavier periods thewinter periods in the past
couple of months?

Matt Kelly (53:32):
Yeah, how do I share my opinions without getting
cancelled?

Darren Lee (53:35):
I saw that it was your girlfriend got robbed yeah.

Matt Kelly (53:38):
Bro, I think I think firstly, like with anything
like, there's a lot of nuance tostuff, so there's never black
and white, nothing, ever is.
The thing that frustrates meabout topics like this is you
see, someone will post onLinkedIn that they've moved to
Dubai and the comments are alljust, oh, you're a horrible
person, or oh, you're runningaway, you don't want to pay tax
or whatever, and not just Dubai,like anything.

(54:01):
People get really illogical whenit comes to like emotional
topics, like are what theircountry is being perceived as.
I think, yeah, I've lived inLondon for like six years and
I've always traveled a lot.
I've always been quite nomadicbut I've like officially lived
there, right.
Um, I think the thing a lot ofpeople and I agree with it, it's
not just tax I think I feellike the quality of life on

(54:23):
offer in the UK, and especiallyLondon, is not very good, pound
for pound.
That's fundamentally the truthand I think if you can change
that, like I can, and still beeffective, if not more effective
in the business, then youshould do that.
Yeah, I guess that'sfundamentally where it stems

(54:45):
from.
I mean for me, yeah, I guessthat's fundamentally where it
stems from.
I mean for me, like weather isa big part of things probably
not acknowledge that enough,like I definitely.
Like I struggled a lot with mymental health and stuff and
still do, but like it'ssignificantly better when I'm in
a just a sunny place.
Like to some people that mightsound ridiculous, but I know my
biology now to know that if Ifeel shit because it's pissing,

(55:06):
rain and dark all the time, I'mnot going to be creative.
My output in the business isgoing to be worse.
I'm going to take it out on theteam, probably.
I'm my girlfriend.
I'm not going to train as hard.
I'm probably going to eat worse, because lack of sunlight
literally makes you hungrier.
That's a fact, um, and it justfor me, it feels like a downward
spiral, like, and I also justthink your environment defines

(55:31):
your ability to like produceanything work-wise, like, more
than anything.
So that's where, like, mydecision to leave basically has
come from.
Um, I'll probably end upspending like half my time there
, maybe, but I'll figure thatone out.
But, yeah, I think there's alot of, there's a few problems,
I think, with the uk now, and Ifind it really strange that

(55:51):
people can't acknowledge themand it's almost considered
controversial to like say thequiet part out loud um, yeah, I
think for me like weather's abig one and just like the
general quality of life.
That's probably like the mainone, pound for pound quality of
life.
Similar to Ireland?
Yeah, I think, very similar.
The tax incentives, especiallyfor founders, has become not

(56:13):
very good.
What's?
The rule like even getting ridof things like entrepreneurs
relief, like it's getting.
That's been changed to thepoint where it basically doesn't
exist anymore wasn't there arule they're trying to bring in?

Darren Lee (56:21):
I'm not too sure.
Is it approved of?
If you've lived there in thepast five years, you're still
taxable I've done that to behonest yeah, I just saw it
recently it was like a danielpriest actually shared.

Matt Kelly (56:30):
It was like they're trying to yeah, he's right about
a lot of this stuff and I agreewith 90 of what he says yeah,
he's very heavy on politics andI like really pushing it yeah,
he's doing it from a betterperspective, though, in terms of
like to actually help britainbecause it is fucked right.
It feels to me and it's asweeping statement there's
obviously nuance and you can'tgeneralize, but it feels to me
like the uk has become lessentrepreneurial and that is not
appealing to me because I justthink whoever's actually running

(56:54):
the country just doesn't makedoesn't make very logical
decisions.
Um, and smes are like basicallythe backbone of the fucking
entire economy, which peopleseem to forget.
Um, like, most of the jobsexist because ultimately, a
founder or founders or whatevercreated a business.
Um, like, the whole, the wholecountry is not the, the fucking

(57:15):
public sector.
Um, yeah, I think there'sobviously like political issues
with like lack of safety.

Darren Lee (57:25):
Um, maybe that's not the right way to describe, but
like, um, I think london has gota real like crime problem like
genuinely yeah like you feelthat though, when you were there
, because that's the big thingfrom like media is that people
say well, when you're there youdon't feel it as much.
I know your girlfriend gotrobbed.

Matt Kelly (57:41):
I never felt unsafe in london really because I
always lived in nice places andI think I'm pretty streetwise
and whatever like.
But yeah, you see all the timeand like I don't know the stats,
but there's a lot of knifecrime in london.
There's a shitload of likeiphone robberies and yeah, you
get that in a lot of places.

Darren Lee (57:56):
Um, I guess you don't get it in dubai, which is
why it's appealing to a lot ofpeople, especially like families
and shit but if you think aboutit, man, for you to move to
dubai or for me to get set uphere, like it, actually it takes
a lot of stuff.
You gotta open up bank accounts, you gotta get the right
documentation, everything, andit's a long fucking process.
Like dubai actually isn't thatstraightforward like, especially
when you're running yourbusiness from dubai, because you

(58:17):
have like, uh, the, thecurrency gets based in dirhams
yeah, you got to convert to usdand there's there is a few
issues with it, but what I'mtrying to say is, like the
people that do it properly, it'sfucking tough.
So that's why it's very strangeto me how a lot of that's just
been let go and they're like, ohyeah, fine, let's like sweep
under the rug that are coming inso like illegally.

(58:38):
It's just an interestingobservation because, like I've
seen people like yourself oranyone who's fucking remotely
has two dollars for their name,just like let's get the fuck out
here, because it's also not thebest place to actually grow a
business.
If you're trying to likeminimize your overheads and if
you're in a super scrappy stageor you're trying to go big as
well, yeah, I think I stillthink london is like in many

(59:00):
ways, a great city and I fuckinglove it, especially in summer.

Matt Kelly (59:05):
I just don't think it's the best place for me to be
, a hundred percent of the time.

Darren Lee (59:08):
Yeah, man, that's a huge.
It's a big change, but I didn'tactually expect it to be so
sudden, because I know you wereconsidering it before and then
you kind of well, I kind of likemoved to Spain a bit last year
and floated around and then wentback, so it wasn't the right
time.

Matt Kelly (59:22):
And yeah, we've built a team and an office in
London, but for me it'sdefinitely not the most
productive place to be.
Yeah, and the irony is, I thinkthere's like a misconception
with certain more traditionalpeople, even in my own network.
They probably think if you'renot in the office, how can you

(59:44):
grow a business?
I would argue in many ways theopposite of that.
Like well, I'm not wasting twohours a day going to the office
for a start, and then the twohours a day in the office that
no one does any work becausethey speak to each other about
weekends.
Um, yeah, I think in-personstuff is is really valuable, but
my view on that is I'd ratherdo a day in person per month.

(01:00:07):
That is actually like qualitytime, not just fucking sat next
to each other looking at ascreen, not speaking, because
that's what offices are anywaygenerally.
Um, then, like be in an officeall the time and get less work
done, because that's what Ifound for myself the past few
months.
Like wasn't in the office everyday, but I was there like two
or three days a week and I'dobjectively get less done.
And, yeah, you speak to theteam and whatever, but I think

(01:00:31):
most people also just want tofucking crack on and do their
job.
I also think like, yeah,offices are good, but I think
most people would rather do ittwo intense days per month or
three intense days per monthMaybe.
Do like a fucking you know likea team thing and collaborative,
or whatever.
You know like a team thing andcollaborative, or whatever.
I really don't think there'sthat much benefit to sitting

(01:00:51):
next to people staring at ascreen pretending you're being
productive because you're in theoffice.
Um, I don't know.
I think it comes down toquality of life as well.
Like, I've always struggledwith the debate between remote
and office, my personal view hasalways been I think remote is
better.
I guess in this case we've likegone down like a hybrid route
because basically got an officebecause some of the team wanted

(01:01:13):
an office and if that helps themdo a better job, then fine, it
serves its purpose, but itdoesn't help me do a better job,
um, which is why I'm now.
I think hybrid's like a goodsolution, for some things need
to be in person, like you needto go and visit like fucking
factories, suppliers, likeretail stores, whatever.
But I think a lot of otherstuff, especially in an econ

(01:01:34):
business predominantly, is moreeffective, done remotely.
Um, and it's an age-old debatebecause some people say, oh yeah
, you can do that, but you can'tdo that to like a large scale.
But even this, like example Imentioned earlier this, this
brand called I think it's groons, but I call it gruns whatever
they're doing like 100 mil revand the founder is like vocally,
like anti-office, and he's justlike why do we have an office?

(01:01:57):
Like people will have betterquality of life, they can live
where they want if they don'thave to go to an office, as long
as the work's getting done.
What's more important?
And the result.
I think the biggest thing isfocusing on the outcome Rather
than time and place.
Yeah, I think that's what a lotof people just get wrong.
They think I've even had peoplesay it to me like, oh, how can
you be working in Bali?
You must just be chilling,drinking bintang.
Or Bali, dubai, marbella,whatever it is.

(01:02:19):
I said, well, no, like I.

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#303 Matt Kelly - He Scaled an Ecom Brand to $20M+ (Here's How)

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#303 Matt Kelly - He Scaled an Ecom Brand to $20M+ (Here's How)