September 4, 2025 • 56 mins
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(00:00) Preview and Intro
(01:12) Building a Lean Team Without Burnout
(04:06) Revenue vs. Profit: The Coaching Dilemma
(06:47) Why Coaching Businesses Aren’t Sellable
(08:14) Jeremy’s Background in Software & Mini Exits
(10:23) The Biggest Lie in Online Business
(12:22) Redefining Success & Lifestyle Goals
(16:04) Personal Brand Positioning
(19:05) From Organic Marketing to Paid Ads
(22:12) Why Simple Scales and Fancy Fails
(23:34) Content Alone Won’t Save Your Business
(25:31) Selling What Clients Want, Delivering What They Need
(29:30) Ads to VSL vs. Ads to Followers
(33:57) How to Qualify Clients Through Ads
(36:30) Willing vs. Able: Filtering the Right Audience
(40:54) Building Cult-Like Communities & Masterminds
(47:43) Lessons From Top Entrepreneurs & Mentors
(52:21) Consistency, Coachability, and Long-Term Thinking
(54:09) Why Hypothesis-Driven Testing Beats Guesswork
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Darren (00:00):
All you need is like 30 bucks a day and an Instagram
account.
That's all.
There's no landing page,there's no, nothing, and so it's
like super, super simple.
A lot of people try to put abandaid over a bullet hole and
they just try to mask thesymptoms instead of solving the
root problem.
The traditional way of runningads and this is like all of the
programs and courses I've evertaken on ads is add to a landing
page with a VSL and then call,and I think that used to work
(00:22):
really well five, six, sevenyears ago, but now it's so
expensive and it's so commonthat most of the people in the
industry, the people you'reselling to, have become pretty
sophisticated.
Jeremy (00:33):
If you're stuck posting every day, burning out in DMs
and wondering why your businessisn't growing, you're not alone.
Most online business owners aretold to build their audience,
but what they need is an actualsystem that sells.
Jeremy Pogue scaled past 200k amonth using paid ads, killer
sales reps and a lean backendthat closes without chaos.
(00:54):
In this episode, we break downthe exact ads sales process and
funnel that sells high ticketevery single day without ever
relying on virality.
This is the anti-burnout pathto scaling.
Don't miss it.
Your team is still super lean,like it's not.
It's not like a bloated team atthe moment.
Darren (01:12):
Yeah, exactly Super lean .
There's me and just one clientsuccess manager for, like the,
the backend delivery side, andthen obviously I got an
assistant content guy um settercloser and that's it that's
super, super lean, jesus christ.
Jeremy (01:26):
I thought even looking at your customer success like
frameworks and stuff, I thoughtyou'd have more guys in there,
but you're.
But obviously the program isjust super efficient, right like
.
You got to the point where boylike it's not about making a
bigger instead of making moreefficient exactly.
Darren (01:41):
Yeah, because a lot of the guys that's in the space
like they just they get suckedin.
I, I was a slave to this too.
I fell for the trap where youget sucked into the revenue,
like vortex, where all you careabout is just like a bigger
stripe screenshot every month,yeah and it.
But then what I see end uphappening is like you make a lot
(02:04):
of revenue but then you have tohire a big team or like spend a
ton on ads and things getreally bloated.
Your margins just tank.
And then you're like you'remaking less money than you would
if you were just like a one manshow, and like there's some
clients that are coming in thatlike maybe aren't great fits and
like dealing with like refundsor like I don't know, just a
(02:25):
whole lot of nightmares andstuff.
And so I was like well, I don'treally want to do that, I don't
really want to model what thoseguys are doing, and so I kind
of put a constraint on like mygoals, because at the end of the
day, it's like a coachingbusiness really has no
enterprise value, so it's notreally sellable.
And so what's the end goal?
Well, if it's not to sellable.
(02:45):
And so what's the end goal?
Well, if it's not to sell it,it's to make it as damn good as
possible right now, which meanslike cash flow and profitability
is a huge thing, and then alsojust word of mouth, reputation,
client results and all that kindof stuff.
And so, rather than just tryingto, like, make more sales and
just kind of fall victim to that, I much prefer to just kind of
(03:09):
put some constraints on it.
So I'm like, right now, my goalis to scale, like still scale
pretty far, but do it withouthiring anybody else, one butt
per seat, five people on in theteam and stay super lean.
And as a result of puttingthose constraints in there, I
(03:30):
don't have an option to tolerateanything less than an a player
on the team, because there's no,there's no room for mediocrity.
And so, as a result, first ofall, like, in order for me to
attract and keep a players, Ihave to be an A player leader
myself, so I had to lead byexample, and so it forces me to
step up in that regard, but thenalso forces the whole team to
(03:53):
step up as well.
And so, yeah, I think that's a,at least at this stage anyways,
it's a much funner game thanjust trying to hire 20, 30, 40
people.
Scale to a million a month,only take home 200.
Jeremy (04:06):
so yeah, dude, 100.
And the funny part about thisis that you're already at that
like very, very desirable goal,right, getting a pass like 200k
a month is extremely tough formost people without going going
big.
You know, because for us, likewe have, like the education
business, and then we have theagency.
But I, my background well, notmy background, but my background
(04:27):
in online business was in theagency space, or still is,
should I say, because we stillhave the agency at a very high
level but the margins just getshot the fuck out.
And it's actually.
It's funny because it's notactually your fault, right,
because we take like rev shares.
Okay for some people, so ifwe're only taking, only taking
(04:47):
40% of a rev share, well, that'sbefore everything else comes
out, okay.
And I was mentored by a lot ofthe very big agency guys and
they were telling me to keepscaling and keep scaling, keep
scaling it in, with the ideathat the margin would get
swallowed, like that was thewhole logic.
And some of the guys thatmentored me, basically, they're
doing like 25 million a year andthey're probably doing around
(05:09):
7% margin, probably 7%, dude,and it's fucking crazy.
And that's because of thenature of the business.
Now, when I speak to some otherpeople in the coaching space,
they're also getting shot withtheir margin right, which is
just hilarious, because that'sthe opposite of how coaching
should be.
It should be cashflow, itshould feed your life, you
should be able to travel and doeverything that you're doing
right, and that was my intentiontoo.
(05:31):
That was from the verybeginning.
Before we move any further, Ihave one short question to ask
you have you been enjoying theseepisodes so far?
Because, if you have, I wouldtruly appreciate it if you
subscribe to the channel to helpmore business owners grow their
online business today.
Darren (05:45):
Yeah, you absolutely nailed it, man.
And what I've come to realizeis like there's no perfect model
, there's no right model.
There's just the right modelfor you, yeah.
And so it really depends onwhat your goal is now with like
an agency, as long as it can runwithout you.
Now you've got a sellable asset.
So even if you are running 7%margins like is the goal
cashflow or like a big exit yeah, at least you got some
optionality there.
(06:06):
But with coaching it's like man, you really like don't.
And last year I was at theHermoses HQ in Vegas and went to
one of their scaling workshopsand I met some guys there.
One of them is doing like, yeah, 1.1 million a month with their
coaching, they've addedsoftware.
And like lap fans all 1.1million a month with their
(06:26):
coaching, they've added softwareand like latin fans, all this
kind of stuff and they're askingquestions because we did like
these round table events or likethis round table exercise where
it was like one of like thehormoses, like top staff would
like come into our circle oflike 15 of us or whatever.
We'd be able to just like askthem questions and then they
move to the next circle.
We would get like, then we getlike the head of sales, then he
would go, and then we get likethe head of marketing and stuff
(06:46):
like that.
And so this guy asked the samequestion to like three different
people and he's like hey, we'redoing this, we're trying to go
for like a big exit.
Like what are we missing?
What are we not doing?
We try this, this that you know, like dude, to be honest, like
info is just not that valuable.
Like info, businesses aren'tthat sellable and they're not
that desirable because, likeevery day that goes on, like
(07:08):
information gets less and lessvaluable.
And so they're like, obviously,if you add software to it,
that's better.
If you add like live events andit's like an awesome community
and like some sort of like adiverse acquisition process and
you're, you're in much bettershape, but still it's just it's
not one of those things that'slike insanely attractive to
(07:29):
investors.
And yeah, so I was like huh, Igot my answer there.
Jeremy (07:35):
Dude, 100%.
And like my, uh, one of my goodfriends, will Brown.
You might be familiar with Willonline.
He actually lives like down theroad from me, uh, a couple of
miles down the road from me, andhe sold his company.
He sold his education business,the trading business, but he
ran into like a ton of issueswith it.
Like I think they were at like600K a month, 700k a month, but
like ad costs just threw theroof and he just got sick of it
(07:58):
so he just wanted to get rid ofit, you know.
And then he now he's rebuilt itagain and he has like his new
business, which is build, growand exit.
And he always asked me do Iever want to sell my business?
He asked me like one, basicallylike once a month, but it's
from a different nature.
Like my background was insoftware man.
Like I literally came fromsoftware and this was before
like the AI software era, whereit was a bit easier.
Like I mean, I was in software10 years ago, dude, when I was
(08:21):
19,.
Which is fucking crazy.
And that was the days wherebyyou would raise like 14 million
and then hire like a hundreddevelopers and just pray to God
that it's going to work out.
That was actually.
It was like a prey model.
So I think just coming fromthat set my expectations really
good in the education andcoaching and agency space and
(08:42):
just being like, yeah, you'redoing, I heard quite recently
which being like, yeah, you'redoing, I heard quite recently
which is like you're doing it toget an exit every single year.
That's how much you should bedoing it.
Right, you should be makingmoney that it's an exit
equivalent every single year.
A mini exit, should I say man,that's so good.
Darren (08:58):
Yeah, I love that concept and uh yeah, because why
not?
Jeremy (09:02):
you know, that's the whole the idea with cash flow,
you know.
But, um, yeah, fucking dude,let's just, let's just start
recording and then let's just go, because I feel like, um, I
feel, like conversations we havein general.
but, dude, I want to saybeforehand like a big thank you
for everything, though, and uh,I feel like you fucking, you've
really really set the way forthis stuff.
So this is going to be, this isgoing to be great man.
And uh, you can also askquestions back to me too, right?
(09:23):
Like it's not a one-way system,and I actually do have a
coaching call in like an hourand 15 minutes, so we'll go
sharp, we'll smash it from there.
Darren (09:31):
Sounds good.
I do have to run a boxing inlike probably 50 minutes as well
, so just a heads up there.
Jeremy (09:37):
Yeah, so you have a call at half past.
Yeah, yeah, uh, yeah, I'll haveto run sick then.
Perfect, awesome.
By any chance, can you recordyour audio on your side?
Um, you don't have like asoftware or some shit on your
laptop?
Darren (09:51):
if you don't, it's chill I'm sure I could get uh obs uh,
it's fine, fuck it, don't worryabout it.
Jeremy (09:58):
Don't worry about it, dude.
I just want to make sure thatthe audio comes out like super
clear on that side, but I thinkeverything looks fine.
Yeah, it's fine, cool.
All right, rob, let's kick off,all right.
Where I want to start is what'sthe biggest lie in the online
business space that everyonebelieves, that you don't believe
I think the biggest lie thatthere is is like there's a
(10:21):
perfect model that's going tosolve all of your problems.
Darren (10:23):
And I think a lot of people get sucked into this
thing where it's like there's aperfect model that's going to
solve all of your problems.
And I think a lot of people getsucked into this thing where
it's like they're just kind oflooking for that next thing and
that thing is going to be better.
Now I will say there'sdifferent strategies, different
models that are better thanothers, but how do you define
better?
I think it really comes down towhat's best for you.
There's no right model, there'sjust the right model for you.
And what that means to me islike some people they want to
(10:48):
just see how far they can taketheir business and they want to
scale to one, two, 3 million amonth, but then, like their
margins absolutely tank and likethere's tons of headaches and
stuff like that.
And other people they're'relike I don't want that at all.
I just want to make 40k a month,travel the world and like I'm
(11:08):
happy and I'm fired up, and so Ithink it really depends on what
the end goal is and what yourend game looks like, and then
reverse engineering it fromthere.
And so I think with thatthere's like yeah, it's just an
of like you got to get clear onwhat you want was important to
you, and then everything elsecan fall into place from there.
Jeremy (11:31):
So you might be familiar with James Kemp.
He uh, he was coaching underTacky Moore, who's worked at Dan
Martell, and a few other guys,and um James, big mentor to mine
.
He said to me, he always saidto me.
He said what does success looklike for you and for your
clients, for people that joinyour program or join my program?
Success could be just paying.
Success could be just beingaround other people that are
(11:53):
killers.
Success doesn't need to be ahundred K a month and a striped
screenshot and on Instagram anda Rolex and in Miami and in
Dubai.
It's so interesting to observe,right, and I look at it through
that lens because then you canget better results when you
understand what success is foryou and also what are you
optimizing for.
And it's a nice mental modelbecause I know that you balance
(12:16):
your life very well with yourbusiness and even, like you said
, there were profitability to melike 50 fucking times already.
Darren (12:22):
So it shows that, like at its core, you're not looking
for, like this crazy maniacbusiness, almost something
that's like calm and justpeaceful, to be perfectly honest
yeah, I think right now, likeand this, this shifts over time
like a couple years ago, when Ifirst started the business, I
was like I will die before Idon't hit a hundred K a month.
(12:44):
I'm like I will sacrificeeverything, that's all I care
about, like bull in a China shopjust ramming my head through
the wall until I get there.
And then I think I hit it monthseven and then month eight, we
doubled again and it was just meand a setter and so I was
taking, like I was the CSM, Iwas doing all the content, sales
(13:05):
, like ops, admin, likeeverything, and I just had a
setter booking calls on mycalendar, I was blasting ads and
it was so much fun and I thinkI had like 87% margins too,
because I was paying my setter10% and like not spending much
on ads at all and they were justreally, really effective,
because back then the marketingmessage was like brand new and
(13:26):
it was like a super newopportunity and so, anyways,
yeah, that was awesome.
And then I hit it and I waslike, cool, what now?
100, then we did 200 a monthand then, like, from there I was
like, okay, now I'm going tosort of build a bit of a team,
because I don't want to beworking 12 hours a day and doing
(13:49):
absolutely everything.
So then I built a team I thinkthere's five or six of us to
kind of have one butt per seatright now.
And I feel like now I have, likeyou said, I have a lot more
balance in my life and I canhave a lot more fun.
I can be a lot more creative tocreate better content, create
better content for my clients,show up more prepared for
coaching calls, spend more timewith clients and stuff like that
(14:11):
too, and now like it's justyeah, I think at the end of the
day, you want to optimize,especially with coaching,
because truly I don't thinkcoaching is like like building a
coaching business is a sellableasset, especially like with
what I do is like marketingcoaching it's like man, like
instagram could have an updatetomorrow and like everything I
(14:31):
teach could just be irrelevant,and so that's like super risky
for investors, like maybe forlike, and it's super competitive
too.
Like there's millions of othercompetitors.
It's ridiculously expensive forads for my niche and everything
like that.
So like I'm not going to sellit and so with that I that means
you gotta like.
I love what you said earlier,but like, have like a mini exit
(14:53):
every year, yeah, and so thatshifts into profitability.
Jeremy (14:56):
So if you optimize for peace and profit and just like
simplicity, I think that's therecipe for success yeah, dude, I
think I've really observed thatfrom you because of, like, who
you've been mentored by tooright, like you've had some
really good people in yourcorner, and it's the hand over
the shoulder equivalent right,which is like hey, don't do this
, this is kind of dumb.
(15:17):
I'm going to save you like 10years of agony and pain, because
we all fall victim to that, andI absolutely have as well as
well.
So there needs to be thatbalance between the two.
One observation I've made ofyou as well is your positioning
is so dialed in right.
You have like an art to be ableto position yourself in the
market in equivalent to a redocean, which is just filled with
(15:38):
like people chopping each otherup to where you've kind of
created like a blue oceanopportunity, which is like the
ads and setter model is is veryunique to you.
It's very, very unique to youand I think that's been a big
unlock.
That's like, oh, jeremy, is theads plus setter, dude, which is
very difficult to be able tofind.
Like.
How did you manufacture thattype of positioning to really
(16:01):
become like one of one in thatspace?
Darren (16:04):
Great question and I nerd out about this stuff.
So we're going to go deep here.
Let's go, and hopefully it'llbe very tactical.
So, like you kind of alluded to, the last thing you want to do
is build an improvement offersaying I'm going to help you do
organic marketing better, orlike scale your coaching
business in a better way.
It's like you got to becompletely different, and so a
(16:25):
couple of years ago, what Inoticed is that every single
person was saying I'll help youget more coaching clients
without spending a dime on ads.
And then I came along I waslike that's stupid, because I
don't want to do organic, Idon't want to spend my time
doing that.
I'd rather spend my money tothen help me get more time back.
And so then I was like I'llhelp you get clients with ads so
(16:47):
you no longer have to do allthe things you hate.
And so one of my favoritethings when it comes to
marketing is throwing rocks atthe enemy.
So you had to create an enemy,which is, for me, organic
marketing coaches.
Coaches that tell you I'm goingto help you scale your coaching
business by teaching you how todo organic, send cold DMS, try
to go viral your coachingbusiness by teaching you how to
do organic, send cold DMS, tryto go viral, posting Facebook
(17:11):
groups, all that kind of stuff.
And the reason like I getpassionate about it is because,
like I used to do that.
So before starting summit acouple of years ago, I worked
for another coach in the space.
When I joined him, um, he wasactually my old business coach
when I was growing myadvertising agency and and I was
seeing success in the agency.
And then he was like dude, likeyou're crushing it, do you want
to join my team as my headcoach and teach my other
(17:31):
students how you've been able togrow?
I was like, sure, because I wasgetting burnt out with the
agency.
And then I joined his team as acoach.
A month later his sales guyquit, so I started taking sales
calls for him.
And guy quit, so I startedtaking sales calls for him and I
was like, hey, dude, why don'tI run ads for you too, and we'll
just pack up the calendar?
He's like, yeah, let's do it.
In like six, seven months wewent from 40 K a month to 220.
(17:52):
And it was just like four youngdudes in our twenties just
blasting it.
But we were teaching organic,we're teaching organic marketing
.
And so, like we were making aton of money, but then, like our
clients were like grindingtheir asses off to try and just
like get through it, and I waslike something's wrong here.
It's like we're doing one thingbut we're teaching the other
(18:12):
thing.
And so I started teaching ourad strategy to some of our
mastermind clients and they werecrushing it and things were
like going really, really wellfor them and I was like okay, I,
I'm like I got something here.
And immediately, like they werejust like two, three, four
extra business.
(18:33):
I was like okay, and then somestuff happened with that um,
with that business, that mentor,and then I left.
The rest of the team followedme and then a couple months
later, I started summit and thenI was like I'm just going to
teach what works, which wasrunning ads on Instagram.
I had an appointment setter,booking calls and then long form
on YouTube with some salesassets like VSLs, retargeting
(18:55):
ads, all that kind of stuff.
And so I just did what workedand then use that to create the
enemy of the organic marketingcoach.
Because another thing, too, islike I don't work with beginners
.
I don't want to like I'veworked, I've helped hundreds of
beginners start their coachingbusiness and pick their niche
and all of that when I used tobe a CSM for him.
(19:16):
And I just didn't want to dothat.
I want to work with establishedpeople who are like five to 30
K a month and just like ready tojust like they're good at what
they do, they know how to sell.
They just need more people tosell to.
And so when I got super clearon that, I was like all right,
that means to get to five to 30K a month.
They've been in other programsbefore.
(19:36):
I kept hearing that on salescalls, yeah, I've been burned
before, you know, and so there'sa lot of pain there.
So I'm like okay, I can eitherbe part of the pain or be part
of the solution to the pain.
And so I was like, yeah, noshit, they burned you because
this is what they promised tosell you.
And so I was like that's thereason why you got burned,
that's the reason why you'restill stuck is because you're
(19:58):
doing organic and you're justrelying on that inconsistent,
it's unpredictable and you can'tactually scale.
And I'm like, on the other hand, with ads, you build a system
put $1 in, you get $4 out, $10out, consistently, predictably,
every single month.
You just get people coming toyou and so I basically took all
(20:19):
the pains and problems that theyhad with all of the other
models and competitors and thenI was like, well, let's just
flip it on its head and throwrocks at them.
Like, yeah, they do suck.
I'm on your side.
This is why I do what I do, andhere's how.
It's better and different, andthe main thing here is different
is better than better.
Jeremy (20:40):
Double top on that, go a bit deeper on that.
Darren (20:42):
It goes with the improvement offer versus new
opportunity.
Right, it's an improvementoffer, then it's not that sexy,
it's not that attractive, it'sjust like, oh, I'll help you,
just do what you're currentlydoing, but like a little bit
better.
You're like, yeah, that's niceto have, but it's not a need to
have, whereas if it's different,then it doesn't have all of the
emotional pain associated withwhat I've already tried and
(21:05):
didn't work before and itpromises to solve the pain as
well.
So it's different from whatI've tried.
So I don't have this biastowards, I don't have this
emotional pain towards thatthing.
So, bringing this back down toearth ads, for example there's
kind of two sides of this.
It's people who have nevertried as before.
(21:26):
Now, ads and setters is like adifferent new opportunity from
organic, so there's no pain yet.
Or there's the people that havetried ads and they wasted money
and they lost money and itdidn't work for them.
And then I'm like, okay, well,the reason didn't do that, like
the reason it didn't work isbecause you had to build all
these funnels and have all thesecampaigns and landing pages and
(21:48):
there's all this complexity.
Like my ass, all you need islike 30 bucks a day and an
Instagram account and that's all.
There's no landing pages, no,nothing.
And so it's like super, supersimple.
And then I'm like the reason itdidn't work is because it's too
complex.
You're trying to buildsomething that was just like way
(22:08):
too complicated and simplescales, fancy fails.
Jeremy (22:12):
Dude.
That's so interesting.
There's so much miniobservations in there as to why
other programs fail as well.
Right, because if you're overpromising, like one specific
thing, like going viral, right,going viral on Instagram, going
viral on YouTube, like that isone tiny segment of everything
that needs to happen, right?
Let me give an example.
(22:34):
So, obviously, my background inthe online space was in
podcasting, okay, and our mediacompany is a podcast media
company, so we run a lot offamous people's podcasts.
And then our education businessin the beginning, version one
was just teaching people andhelp people get into the podcast
space.
But we quickly and I mean veryquickly iterated on that, which
was helping podcasters monetizetheir audience, and then we
(22:57):
swapped it to helping businessowners make more money with
content.
And the reason why I'm sayingthis is because content was only
a proponent Okay, it was one.
We call it one third of theequation.
The other third was sales man.
They had to fucking learn howto sell.
They had to learn something.
They had to learn how to close.
They needed some system.
They needed some way to getpeople true, whether it's sell
(23:18):
by chat, whether it's a callfunnel and then they needed a
fucking good offer, so theyneeded a delivery system that
had a good offer to be able todo something, because it didn't
matter how good your content wasor it didn't matter how good
you were showing up on camera Ifyou didn't have like, let's say
, like the three pieces.
But if I compare that to otherpeople that are like, oh dude,
just just create a YouTube video, just create like a, an
(23:40):
Instagram reel, they're sellinglike a symptomatic issue,
symptomatic fix to much deeper,root cause problem.
I think that's why peopleliterally get burned, because we
have the exact same feedbackwhich is like, hey, I bought
these programs before I was toldto do this and it didn't work.
Because a lot of our clientsthey well, they would initially
get caught in masturbation,procrastination land, which is
(24:03):
like they just think about whatthey're doing so much versus
actually physically doing it,running that ad, getting people
to come there having aconversation, actually selling
the program.
You know there has to be thataction component which I think
you've really, really nailedwith your clients to get them to
like do shit, literally just doshit.
You know there is thatcomponent.
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Darren (24:49):
Oh, we can go deep here.
Man, You're opening a can ofworms.
Jeremy (24:52):
Let's go.
Darren (24:57):
It's awesome.
So a couple of things there.
Yeah, you're exactly right.
A lot of people try to put abandaid over a bullet hole and
they just try to mask thesymptoms instead of solving the
root problem, and that is a hugecause for exactly what you said
.
And on the other side, it'slike you have to balance, like
the delivery, like the front end, the backend, so what you
market and sell, versus what youactually deliver.
(25:18):
And so, on the one hand, youkind of have to like at least
well, I won't say you, you kindof have to.
I'll just tell you what I do.
And so I just sell as insetters.
90% of my clients come to mebecause they're like hey, jeremy
, I need more leads or betterleads.
I'm like, okay, cool, that'sthe problem that they think they
have.
(25:38):
It could be their offer, itcould be their sales sucks, it
could be who knows what right,but they think that their
problem is they just need more,better leads, and so that's
that's what I sell, that's how Iposition it.
My whole front end, all mymarketing and everything is just
ads and setters, ads andsetters, more leads, better
leads.
Now, when they get into theprogram, it's a different story.
(26:00):
Yes, we focus on ads andsetters and I can talk about
like how I designed the programtoo.
We can, like I said we can, wecan get into this.
I love this shit and I nerd outabout it, but that's what they
buy.
However, we're not going to letthem run ads and hire a setter
if their offer sucks.
And so the first place we startwith them, like once they sign
(26:22):
up, it's like within like a dayor two, get on onboarding call
and we send them through offeroptimization.
So that's where we get clear onthe positioning, on the
messaging Okay, who exactly arewe speaking to?
How are?
How are we going to speak tothem as well?
What makes them tick?
What are their pains or theirdesires?
All that kind of stuff.
So we get crystal clear on that,on the offer and the
(26:42):
positioning of it.
And then we can take that clearon that on the offer and the
positioning of it, and then wecan take that, put that into the
ads.
And so, if we think aboutthere's like a handful of
different things, you need toscale like your business, you
need your offers, you gotta begood, you gotta make really good
content, you gotta have ads toget people watching your content
, you gotta have like DMconversations, you gotta have a
sales conversation conversation.
(27:04):
You gotta have delivery systemsand ops and all that kind of
stuff.
And if I like, a lot of thetime what we do is we help
people with their offer.
Like I said at the start, andif I sold that on the front end,
if I marketed like I'm theoffer helper guy, it's like
dude'd be broke, we wouldn't betalking right now because nobody
(27:26):
thinks that they need that.
So you got to sell them whatthey want and then give them
what they need on the backend.
And so we start there.
Then we go into ads, launchthose Once we got the leads
coming through.
Now we got to warm them up andnurture them, build a VSL,
create very intentional contentand brand positioning to then
create the separation betweenyou and everybody else, throw
(27:48):
rocks at the enemy and just kindof create a blue ocean, even if
it's in a fiercely bloody redocean.
And then from there appointmentcenter, dial in sales and go
from there Like we have fivegroup coaching calls a week.
Only one of them is about adsand that's like ads marketing.
That's mine on Monday.
(28:08):
And then we've got one onappointment setting, one on
delivery and operations and thentwo on sales, because we can
give them a ton of leads withthe ads, but if they can't close
them, like you said, then allof a sudden the leads suck and
Jeremy's program sucks A hundredpercent.
And yeah, so it's.
Uh, it's a fun, fun game, man.
Jeremy (28:27):
There's a lot of moving pieces it's always the case,
right, it's always the case togive people what they want.
So you can give them what theyneed.
Like that's why people get intofitness for a six-pack and to
look good in miami.
But then they're like, oh, likeI actually sleep better and
then I train better and then Ihave better relationship with my
friends and myself andeverything.
Like you, you have tounderstand, like almost like,
what's the internal driverinitially, which is like leads.
(28:49):
People think they have a leadsproblem, that they actually have
an offer problem.
They actually have a salesproblem, and even even guys like
it's so interesting, becausethe way that you view things is,
you know, you can't scale theshit out of it if you don't know
how to close them.
Right, if you can't close adoor, how the hell are you going
to close a 6k paid in full?
Like it's just, it's almostlike obvious.
But you don't want to hurtsomeone's ego too, right?
(29:10):
You want to actually helpsomeone.
That's consult of selling andshowing people.
Oh, yes, this is exactly whereyou are and this is where you're
going to get to Now.
Obviously, your ad strategy issuper unique and I really want
to double tap on this.
What's your opinion on runningan ad to a VSL so landing page
versus running an ad to afollower account and then
nurturing the leads overall.
Darren (29:30):
Great question.
So the traditional way ofrunning ads and this is like all
of the programs and coursesI've ever taken on ads is add to
a landing page with a VSL andthen call, and I think that used
to work really well five, six,seven years ago, but now it's so
expensive and it's so likecommon that most of the people
(29:51):
in the industry, the people thatyou're selling to, have become
pretty sophisticated At leastthe people in my niche, right,
they understand what it is, andso I don't think it's as
effective, plus a lot of thoseguys.
It's like what?
Like how they defined good andsuccessful was like a three X
row, as you're getting a one tothree return on your money, or
(30:14):
three to one return on yourmoney.
You're like an advertising Godand you're like you have this
incredible thing for me, if Iget a three to one, wrote like
row as I should shut my businessdown and get a nine to five and
like.
That's kind of the way I see it.
So the follower ads yes, you'resending them to your Instagram
profile.
Now the downside of it is it'slike impossible to track the
(30:38):
track ability.
The measurability is horrific,but the profitability is
disgusting, and so like on anygiven month, like we're
averaging a 10 to a 12 X return.
Some months it's like up to 18.
And that means like the marginsare way higher.
But, like I said, the tracking,the measurability, the testing
(31:00):
isn't as robust as like a VSLfunnel or something like that
too.
Now, vsl funnel is morescalable, for sure, because it's
like you can just put it all inand get three out or four like
pretty consistently, whereas thefollowers it's like a bit of a
slower burn.
But I think, especially in likea super competitive industry,
it's good to like, it's never abad thing to have more qualified
people with money and pain inyour audience watching your
(31:22):
content, getting to know likeand trust you every single day,
then not, and so I'd like to getyour opinion on this, because
for tracking, this is the way Ido it.
Jeremy (31:35):
So I want to guess you tell me this is terrible if you
want to.
So spend money on ads, followads, let's say a hundred dollars
a day.
Just keep it simple.
Total followers that come in,let's just say it's 50, and then
of that 50, how many arequalified in that day?
So let's just say it's 50.
And then of that 50, how manyare qualified in that day?
So let's say 30.
And then of that 30, therebeing conversations are started.
We just do a special like kindof tag or a special symbol or
(31:57):
something in the conversation sothat then in T90, so within 90
days, if they book, we canattribute that to the follower
ad.
Now is that stupid or is that agood idea?
Because for me that's kind oflike checking out logically.
Darren (32:11):
Yeah, no, that makes total sense and that's kind of
what we do and a lot of ourclients do.
So, yeah, I think you hit thenail on the head there and like
but what I'm like seeing withlike the trackability is like
that is like a super manualprocess 100%.
But what I'm like saying withlike the trackability is like
that is like a super manualprocess.
It's very like hands-on rightand so there's ways to get
around it, whereas like vsl,it's like you can see exactly
(32:31):
which specific ad they came fromand like when, and like it
tracks like all of their clicks,like throughout the entire like
journey, and so, um, yeah, kindof just again, two different
ways.
I love the follower ads because, like anybody can do it, like
I've had clients in their likelate 40s, early 50s that like
(32:53):
don't know what an instagramreal is, start making reels.
Jeremy (32:58):
we made one ad and then, like one of my clients, tom,
helped me go from zero to 100k amonth with one ad I saw that
dude, I saw that guy, I actuallysaw that interview and I was
like if that guy can do itbecause he's like obviously in
like mid 50s, like probably likein that kind of like boomer
stage and like anybody could doit right, like quite literally I
say that respectfully like theguy probably has no background
(33:21):
in fucking instagram.
Darren (33:22):
He probably doesn't even use instagram, you know,
historically yeah, he didn'tknow what a reel was and he
jokes about that all the time,like he's uh, we meet up every
single week and he's in mymastermind and like he tells
that story all the time too.
And yeah, he's like, but it'sjust simple man, and and that's
it okay.
Jeremy (33:43):
So what?
What do you do in those ads tolike crush it?
That stand, that really standout right, because those you
know asymmetrical returns you'regetting are based on how good
your scripts are.
How base are good are youractual fucking ads actually?
Darren (33:57):
are.
So a couple things.
One of the main things I focuson is financial qualification,
because the worst thing ever inthe world is when you just have
an audience full of broke people, and that's not fun, that's not
something I want to do and it'snot something I want to put my
clients through either.
And so, um, the main thing islike making sure that you're
financially qualified.
So what I mean by that is likein the ad copy and what you're
(34:18):
saying, how are you calling outpeople that have money and how
are you repelling people thatdon't?
And so like there's ways youcan do it.
I've had, like, for example,fitness coaches scale to seven
figures.
Like one guy, adrian, he was atlike 20 K a month doing organic
for five years and then welaunched one ad that four X the
business up to the seven figuremark, and in that he was
(34:40):
targeting like women that wantedto lose weight.
But we needed to find likewomen that had money to invest,
because one thing that we couldhear all the time was, like they
need to talk to their husbandand you get like kind of
permission because like he wasthe breadwinner and stuff like
that.
So like, how can we go afterwomen that like have their own
money.
And so the script with that itwas like, if you're a career,
(35:02):
career driven woman, struggling,or whose letter health slip as
a result of being too busy withyour work, this is for you.
It's like you're probably likeadvancing your career, you're
making great money, but you'vejust kind of let your health
fall to the back burner as aresult of being so busy.
And then it's like, in otherwords, you've got the money and
the finances dialed in, but notthe health and fitness.
(35:23):
And so, like we're kind of flipflopping back and forth between
a you have the money, b youhave the pain that we solve.
A you have the money, b youhave the pain.
A you have the money, b youhave the pain.
And so that's how we'requalifying.
And so, like, people thataren't advancing in their career
, people that don't have theirmoney and their finances dialed
in, aren't going to listen.
They're probably going to keepscrolling, which is exactly what
(35:44):
we want.
And so, as a result, he's ableto sell a $4,500 fitness
coaching offer to people thathave money and do it with a
relative amount of ease.
Jeremy (35:59):
It's so interesting, right, because the way I think
about it is willing and able.
So everyone is willing to workwith Jeremy.
Everyone wants to join hisprogram, but not everyone is
able to pay $9,500.
And I think that's a veryinteresting way to separate out
your audience, because peopleare like, oh, like, I'm getting
attention, right, and it's aone-on-one like didn't get
(36:21):
attention as a child, and nowI'm getting attention on social
media.
They are willing to work withyou, and then they book up a
shit ton of calls and thenthey're not able to.
And dude, just for a bit ofcontext on this about how your
audience can get super skewedit's a guy that trains at my gym
, nice guy.
He has 2.7 million subscriberson YouTube, 800k on Instagram
(36:42):
and making like between two to5K a month.
Because his audience is filledwith actual women, would you
believe, cause it's like thetype of workouts he does.
His audience is filled withactual women, would you believe,
because it's like the type ofworkouts he does, his audience
is filled with people that arejust generally broke and that's,
I guess, a that's a cause andeffect of creating just a bunch
of like very viral content, andnow his ecosystem is just
(37:04):
contained of people that willnever buy.
So we were like chatting and Iwas like, okay, you know, for an
audience of that size do youeven run a call, funnel, right,
because the audience is so big.
It's like, how do you evensolve that problem, bro?
And I think like the logic islike initially see like who
books in, or how can you book in, or how do you set them, and
then get to the point of, okay,maybe, maybe, just maybe there's
(37:27):
a small 1% of people that areable to actually come and
actually work with you.
Darren (37:32):
Yeah, few things here.
So, first of all, I thinksomething that would be great to
filter is like a low ticketproduct and then from there
going for the call ascension onthe back end of that.
So then you're you're onlyoffering a call to people that
have proven that they're buyers.
Yes, correct, rather likebuyers are different than leads,
and so that would be a goodkind of like filter there.
(37:55):
It could be $27, it could be $7, it could be 97.
It doesn't matter, right.
And then on the backend of that, have like a phone setter
calling all the buyers or likesome sort of like CSM type thing
client support rep, helpingthem like go through it, um, on
the back end, and then fromthere try to go for the upsells
if they're qualified, um, soyeah, that could be, could be a
(38:17):
good way around it.
Um, we'll see.
But uh, yeah, that's crazy manlike.
I had a client a few weeks agoit's kind of like a similar
thing.
He had a reel popped off, gotlike over a million views and
he's like dude, my businessabsolutely tanked because it was
just like the reel was likekind of unrelated to what he was
(38:37):
doing.
So he's a fitness coach workingwith catholic men and helping
them like get in shape.
And so he made a reel justabout like religion in general.
That was like a little likepolarizing and so it popped off.
So we got a lot of people thatare just interested in like
religion and not fitness.
(38:58):
And then now he had like tens ofthousands of new followers come
through that aren't interestedin fitness and the
transformation that he helpspeople achieve, and they don't
have the pain, they're justthere because they were like
interested in this, this, likeone reel on a different kind of
unrelated topic.
Yeah, and so you're going tokind of let the, let the wave
(39:19):
rot, let the wave ride out, andthen fix things and kind of like
patch it up from there.
So a lot of times it can domore harm than good.
Oh dude 100.
Jeremy (39:30):
The way I think about it is that every, every video is
like a vsl, whether it's a realor youtube video, and then every
written copy is sales copy.
So, looking at a true dot lensand even with our clients that
we work with, like, I want tomake sure that there's like this
one-to-one relationship betweenthe content you produce it's
long form or short form and howdoes it relate to your product
(39:52):
or service.
So, like, if I'm talking, ifI'm talking literally about like
equipment in to do with apodcast, like that has to relate
to somewhere in my fuckingprogram that has some sort of
equipment alignment, otherwisewhat am I doing it for?
Like, literally, what am Idoing it for?
I can talk to my friends aboutthis shit in my spare time.
If I'm only if I have a coupleof shots in a week to put out
(40:14):
posts.
I'm not going to be putting outstuff.
That's in a misalignment.
But it's a weird thing becausepeople don't get that right,
because I guess there is likevalue-based content.
So you know, those offers I sellto, let's say, christian
founders.
It's based on values, right,the value of being Christian and
whatever that aligns with interms of your belief system.
And then there's the operationand mechanism.
(40:34):
That's like fitness or businessor relationships or whatever
that may be.
So again, it's positioningright.
Brandon is actually so good atthat.
You know he's targeting hisfitness.
It's just like Christianbusiness owners, and he's done
such an amazing job with thattoo, which is separating out his
uh, his entire audience.
Darren (40:54):
Totally, yeah, and that's how you build a really
good brand.
Like a cult like audience iswhen you have an aligned vision
and values and talk about thattoo.
And so I've been going reallydeep here because, um, about a
month from, I'm hosting a clientretreat here in my hometown, in
Kelowna, bc, canada, and asmall town like middle of
(41:17):
nowhere, it's a nightmare to getto, but we've got, I think, 45
people flying out and coming tothis event.
I actually opened it up tonon-clients for the first time
ever, just testing it out, we'llsee.
And I got dan martell speakingand his right hand man and
another buddy doing a million amonth and, excuse me, unreal.
But a couple of days are likejust me and I'm building this,
(41:41):
this training on how to build acult-like audience, because
that's how you do it and likethat's how, like, the most
successful people in the spaceare the most successful people
in the space are the mostsuccessful people in the space.
Yeah, they build a call likeaudience, like russell brunson
did that with quick funnels,even like andy elliott, like you
can see.
Like so when you understandbehind the the scenes, like what
(42:05):
the things are, what the boxesare to check, you're like oh, I
can see this guy doing thatexactly, dude.
So 100.
Jeremy (42:13):
I have a few crazy stories and that's the first
thing on the mastermind dude.
Best of luck with that.
I just ran my second mastermindthis year and it's so good for
building a cult literally sogood.
One of my best mates, laracosta, spoke at it and one of
our aspects we called, we jokedon it, calling like building a
cult, like how do you do it?
So I so I ran my firstmastermind in January in Bali
(42:33):
and it was for mostly clients,80% clients.
All of them came back in Mayfor the next one.
Plus, we had external peoplethen and then they came into the
ecosystem and were like Jesus,like what's going on here?
Like there's, like it's.
So it's a strong click, youknow, and the people that are
inside are really inside.
We on click, you know, and thepeople that are inside are
really inside.
We all think the way, same way.
We all build the samebusinesses in the same way and
(42:54):
it was crazy because some guys,to your point, like they're
making like 200k a month, 200k amonth, 400k a month.
You attract person that's basedon the values as a result.
So that was like a huge, hugeunlock.
But one thing that was veryapparent was my team and it's a
small team.
A lot of my kind of main kindof guys were there.
They flew in.
So, just for context, peopleflew from all around the world
(43:15):
America, europe, dubai,australia, to Bali, where I'm
based and the biggestobservation people made was of
our team.
They're like, oh like, the teamis super strong, super strong
values.
You all guys are working thesame thing.
And I had a post on LinkedIn.
I know people think LinkedIn isfor losers, but I think it's
really good.
I had a post on LinkedIn aboutme and one of my sales reps.
So one of my sales reps.
He was making $150 a month inVietnam and now he's joined us.
(43:39):
He's making around $7,000 amonth.
And I had this post on LinkedInand I went like super viral,
very polarizing in terms of likewhat the fuck's your excuse?
And guess who messaged me?
Andy Elliott messaged me in DM,being like love the story about
you and your sales rep.
Dude, keep crushing it, keep atit.
And when I looked at it I waslike that was the exact attitude
(44:04):
that he has around sales and itwas a real full circle moment.
Darren (44:07):
Man Wow, that's hilarious.
Man, go ahead.
Oh no, I was just gonna sayit's crazy like the impact of
the live events specifically canhave, though.
It just makes everything likeit brings it all back down to
earth and like that genuineconnection.
Yeah, the in-person energy isnext level.
Jeremy (44:22):
And dude, I always talk about this too, right, Because
for our agency, a lot of theguys are kind of siloed because
they're just doing their ownthing.
They work with us as an agencypartner.
We bring them to our events andit really connects everyone too
.
Because one of my mentors saidto me before I said why is the
relationship between coachingand agency clients different?
And he said because you do aservice to them, so you are a
(44:44):
servant of them.
It was such an interestingobservation and because you do
something for someone, therelationship is just different,
just different, right, um, notnecessarily positive or negative
.
Sometimes it can be negative,but we're doing our last event
in september, so turn threeevents this year and I have like
matt lakovich and william brownspeaking and again it's just
(45:04):
bringing people together.
And, oh, to be fair, this timelike there's so much emphasis on
the content and what we'reteaching.
But what I would say, what Ialways say, is that the most
value is between the members,when they're interacting on
their own.
So when we're just havingdinner and having lunch, that's
when they get the most valuefrom people.
And I love, like six monthsfrom now, people I see like
(45:25):
people that were at the eventrecording podcasts together.
They're like doing partnershipstogether.
They're running their own eventtogether and and it's, it's
dude, that's like, that's likethe most beautiful part of
business.
I think that's why I loverunning events so much.
Darren (45:37):
Yeah, man, a hundred percent, and I've literally said
the exact same thing too.
So the last one we hosted wasin March in Miami and I
literally said that to everyone.
I'm like, guys, it's like I'vegot a lot of really good stuff
planned for you, like for theworkshops I'm going to be
teaching, but I promise you,your biggest takeaways are going
to be from the conversationslike around the dinner table or
(46:00):
around the pool and stuff likethat.
And it's like we had someincredible like speakers, like
another buddy, austin, whoscaled to a couple hundred K a
month Like he spoke.
I have a buddy who was the top,the top sales rep for Tony
Robbins for like and personallyone-on-one mentored by him for
like 15 years and now like heset the record for doing like
(46:20):
$12.6 million from like onesingle presentation and like
crazy, like, now the top salesreps at Tony Robbins get the,
the award named after him.
And so he came like, did thisincredible presentation with us,
hung out with us for the day,went to the miami heat game and
stuff, and it was like unrealand uh, it's so like a, it's
(46:41):
super cool being able to like,be like in relation, like in
orbit, with guys like that, um,and like be able to attract that
and help, like help my clientslike also get that energy too,
um, but also they like, yeah,just a lot of the feedback that
I got was like how hispresentation made them feel, how
(47:06):
his standards made them feel,but then also just that like
nothing to do with anything thatwe organized too and just
completely like irrelevant andjust like, oh yeah, this dinner
conversation I had justcompletely shifted everything
that I I ever did in my entirebusiness and now like it's just,
it's crazy and the energy islike nuts afterwards too, it's
(47:28):
like people go home, they hitlike record months and like
they're just fired up.
The community is just pumping.
Jeremy (47:34):
It's so, so, so cool it's a small things man dude.
If you're doing a mastermind ineurope or if I'm in america,
I'll come.
I'll come to your next one,like 100.
If you're doing external people,like, yeah I'd fucking love to
come, man, and you know what'sso interesting?
Like you're a young dude, likeI'm pretty fucking young too,
for the most part like I alwaysobserved the people that were in
quantum with Sam Ovens a fewyears ago.
(47:56):
So, like you know, five fuckingyears ago, when they were in
quantum, a lot of these guyswere making like 100k a month,
150k a month.
Now they're doing like twomillion a month, three million
months, selling businesses.
So, like this is the precursorfor like what you do in your
life.
It's, it's, it actually doesset you up so well.
But in relationships, what youknow, knowledge, like dude, I
(48:16):
remember watching a Will Brownmastermind three years ago and
Charlie Morgan was in the roomand he was teaching Charlie
Morgan how to build a sales team.
Like that was only three yearsago, dude, and Charlie was like
a young guy, he's, like you know, mid-20s, and he's teaching him
a little how to build a salesteam.
So fucking three years ago.
(48:37):
And now charlie's like doinglike 30 million a year or some
shit, and uh, it's justinteresting, right?
Success leaves clues.
Coachability I watched a daviddre video the other day which
was, like you know, the second,you stop becoming coachable.
You're fucking cooked.
You're over, bro the second.
You think that you're betterthan the game, you're better
(49:01):
than sales, you're better thanoffers.
You're just over, and it's avery humbling experience, man.
What I want to ask you I knowyou need to jump in a sec is
like so you've been coached by alot of great people.
What are some observationsyou've made from being coached
by people like Dan Martell andother guys in the space?
Darren (49:16):
It's all in how they they view themselves and then
everything that they do is justa reflection of that, and
usually it's nothing crazyeither.
They're they're masters of thebasics, they're masters of the
fundamentals.
And yeah, like Dan Martell, himand I are very close.
We live in the same town.
I just had a bunch of guys likehis business partner, creative
(49:37):
director, head of sales, head oflike the media um, all those
guys came over for barbecue atmy place last week and so like
it's super cool to have such aclose relationship and spend a
lot of time together in thatregard.
And also, like I met Ed Milet,spent a day with him in his
house in Florida, and other guyshave sold nine figures in this
(50:00):
space, and it really justbecomes like so glaringly
obvious.
It's like they're just mastersof the fundamentals.
Man, it's the basics ofpersonal development.
They choose, they of personaldevelopment, they choose, they
prioritize personal developmentfirst, and then everything they
do is just a reflection of that.
And like a few months ago, well,at the start of the year, I was
(50:21):
like I'm reading 52 books thisyear, a book a week because one
of my team members was like, hey, I'd never finished a book
before, but I'm gonna read 52this year, like and, and I'm
like, shit, dude, all right,I'll join you.
And so, anyways, I got like Iwas doing so well for like two,
two and a half months and then Iwas like two weeks ahead of my
reading.
(50:41):
I'm like, oh yeah, I fuckinggot this.
And then I had like a month ofjust like back-to-back travel.
I had like four trips like aweek or like sorry, like a week
at a time, like I'm home forlike a day and then like flying
out again and I just kind of gotlike a little overwhelmed and
burnt out and lost my sorry,chose to give up my momentum and
so I just like stopped readingfor like a month or two.
And then last I don't know aweek or two ago, I was like man,
(51:04):
like why, why did I do that?
And I noticed too, like theenergy in my community kind of
lowered a little bit.
My team kind of lowered a littlebit my content and I was like,
ah, and so since then I've justbeen absolutely like going hard
on the reading and journalingand like visualization and
vision boards and stuff likethat, and just like that passion
(51:27):
, that fire, it's, it's so backand so like that was just like a
little mini example that I'velearned recently of just like
it's gotta just be a standard,it's just daily non-negotiables,
man, and it's it's reading,it's learning, it's growing,
it's pushing yourself to justbecome better, smarter, every
single day, and just likedefault to action.
(51:49):
That's one thing that that Danlike preaches a lot is is your
default setting to just be takeaction.
Don't overthink it, don't tryto like say, okay, well, what if
I?
He's like dude, just justfucking do it to take action and
then iterate from there andthen try to make it better.
And so I think a lot of peoplecan get out of that
procrastination and just mentalmasturbation phase when they let
(52:13):
go of their vices.
They just prioritize personaldevelopment and reading and they
just take massive action 100%man Dude.
Jeremy (52:21):
That's so interesting.
I say my observation myself.
Right, I've recorded a podcastevery single week for five years
and coming up to the mastermindobviously was super fucking
busy.
So I actually I had I have abacklog always but I kind of
went like two and a half weeksof recording a podcast and then
I finished on monday and I waslike I for me, want to get back
(52:42):
recording, I want to get backlike hammering I think.
I think I'm doing like sevenpodcasts in the next, like 10
days, flying to london on mondaydoing five in london.
That'll be in marbella, doingfive in london.
And like my podcast is only aproponent of what I do.
It's not even like I don't evenfucking monetize it, man.
It's for my podcast, it's formy actual business and I just
enjoy meeting people.
Like it's 6 am bro on a fuckingtuesday, um, but I I do it
(53:03):
because it's like a highestvalue for me.
It's like how you do one thingis how you do everything and, as
you said, your clients andcustomers reflect that energy in
you and you don't need to be uphere at 100 times, but it's
good to be at like an 8 or a 7out of 10, just consistently.
Consistently at that, becausethen you never lose, right?
I had dinner with Jordan Platten.
He's been really big in theagency space.
(53:24):
He was in my house yesterdaybut we had dinner and he was
like, do you work like every day?
And I was like, yeah, I do, butI don't work at like a hundred
percent, a hundred miles an hour.
It's just like I work every dayon my business agency content,
everything just a bit Like Iwork on it and it always moves
(53:45):
forward.
And if I do that over 10 yearsI I'm physically not going to
lose like quite literally.
Like how can I lose if I justkeep doing the same thing and I
keep getting better and betterand iterating, and sorry, the
last thing I was going to say onthis was have you ever read the
lean startup by eric rose?
I haven't.
No, oh, dude, if you're on your, if you're on the reading
fucking hype, get that book,dude.
Buy that right now.
I'll buy it for you, right,it's like a seven dollar book.
(54:05):
It was the first book I everread.
So again, I have a background.
The first book I was given inuniversity was the lean startup,
and the guy came in and he waslike I don't give a fuck how
good your business idea is, Idon't give a fuck how good you
think your development is oryour marketing is.
The only thing that matters istesting it in the market, and
(54:26):
it's called, like, hypothesisthinking.
So I saw your video on this aswell.
But this is where, where itcame from, which is, everything
you do is a hypothesis untilit's in the market.
And the whole logic was thesilicon valley startups.
They were building for 20 orfor 10 years in their basement,
but the the best startups in the90s and 80s were the ones that
came true and literally went onthe floor.
So this means, if you have ahypothesis, go to the market and
(54:47):
test it.
Ask someone hey, do you want x,do you want a program on
setters and ads?
And then you want someone tosay, no, that is shit.
Like you literally want peopleto tell you that it's terrible.
And that's how I built my firsttwo startups man 20 and 2023,
which was dude.
I had a passport startup techstartup.
I went to the airport in dublinand I would stand at the
(55:08):
departure lounge and would belike would you, you use this app
?
And I literally did it for likesix months straight because it
was the only thing that matteredwas customer feedback.
You will love that book, dude,because you'll get so much ideas
as to like is there smallthings you want to add or
improve to your program?
And the whole logic is it's acustomer feedback loop
continuously and it's an amazingbook, amazing.
Darren (55:29):
I've heard great things about it, yeah I read it, you're
reading.
Jeremy (55:34):
It's one of those classics.
Darren (55:35):
I just haven't like gotten around to reading yet so
send me your address.
Jeremy (55:39):
I'll order a few as a gift for this podcast oh, I
appreciate that man, Iappreciate that big thank you
man.
This was such a sick podcast.
I I really really, really doappreciate it.
I'd love to do another one inperson.
Uh, I'm in America quite oftenI don't know how many times you
come down from Canada, but to befair, we'll get it done in
person.
Or if you're coming to Europe,I know you do a bit of trips
(56:00):
across Europe too, but in themeantime once I said big, big
thank you man.
Darren (56:05):
Yeah, of course, man.
This was absolutely awesome andlove the conversation today.
All you need is like 30 bucks a day and an Instagram
account.
That's all.
There's no landing page,there's no, nothing, and so it's
like super, super simple.
A lot of people try to put abandaid over a bullet hole and
they just try to mask thesymptoms instead of solving the
root problem.
The traditional way of runningads and this is like all of the
programs and courses I've evertaken on ads is add to a landing
page with a VSL and then call,and I think that used to work
(00:22):
really well five, six, sevenyears ago, but now it's so
expensive and it's so commonthat most of the people in the
industry, the people you'reselling to, have become pretty
sophisticated.
Jeremy (00:33):
If you're stuck posting every day, burning out in DMs
and wondering why your businessisn't growing, you're not alone.
Most online business owners aretold to build their audience,
but what they need is an actualsystem that sells.
Jeremy Pogue scaled past 200k amonth using paid ads, killer
sales reps and a lean backendthat closes without chaos.
(00:54):
In this episode, we break downthe exact ads sales process and
funnel that sells high ticketevery single day without ever
relying on virality.
This is the anti-burnout pathto scaling.
Don't miss it.
Your team is still super lean,like it's not.
It's not like a bloated team atthe moment.
Darren (01:12):
Yeah, exactly Super lean .
There's me and just one clientsuccess manager for, like the,
the backend delivery side, andthen obviously I got an
assistant content guy um settercloser and that's it that's
super, super lean, jesus christ.
Jeremy (01:26):
I thought even looking at your customer success like
frameworks and stuff, I thoughtyou'd have more guys in there,
but you're.
But obviously the program isjust super efficient, right like
.
You got to the point where boylike it's not about making a
bigger instead of making moreefficient exactly.
Darren (01:41):
Yeah, because a lot of the guys that's in the space
like they just they get suckedin.
I, I was a slave to this too.
I fell for the trap where youget sucked into the revenue,
like vortex, where all you careabout is just like a bigger
stripe screenshot every month,yeah and it.
But then what I see end uphappening is like you make a lot
(02:04):
of revenue but then you have tohire a big team or like spend a
ton on ads and things getreally bloated.
Your margins just tank.
And then you're like you'remaking less money than you would
if you were just like a one manshow, and like there's some
clients that are coming in thatlike maybe aren't great fits and
like dealing with like refundsor like I don't know, just a
(02:25):
whole lot of nightmares andstuff.
And so I was like well, I don'treally want to do that, I don't
really want to model what thoseguys are doing, and so I kind
of put a constraint on like mygoals, because at the end of the
day, it's like a coachingbusiness really has no
enterprise value, so it's notreally sellable.
And so what's the end goal?
Well, if it's not to sellable.
(02:45):
And so what's the end goal?
Well, if it's not to sell it,it's to make it as damn good as
possible right now, which meanslike cash flow and profitability
is a huge thing, and then alsojust word of mouth, reputation,
client results and all that kindof stuff.
And so, rather than just tryingto, like, make more sales and
just kind of fall victim to that, I much prefer to just kind of
(03:09):
put some constraints on it.
So I'm like, right now, my goalis to scale, like still scale
pretty far, but do it withouthiring anybody else, one butt
per seat, five people on in theteam and stay super lean.
And as a result of puttingthose constraints in there, I
(03:30):
don't have an option to tolerateanything less than an a player
on the team, because there's no,there's no room for mediocrity.
And so, as a result, first ofall, like, in order for me to
attract and keep a players, Ihave to be an A player leader
myself, so I had to lead byexample, and so it forces me to
step up in that regard, but thenalso forces the whole team to
(03:53):
step up as well.
And so, yeah, I think that's a,at least at this stage anyways,
it's a much funner game thanjust trying to hire 20, 30, 40
people.
Scale to a million a month,only take home 200.
Jeremy (04:06):
so yeah, dude, 100.
And the funny part about thisis that you're already at that
like very, very desirable goal,right, getting a pass like 200k
a month is extremely tough formost people without going going
big.
You know, because for us, likewe have, like the education
business, and then we have theagency.
But I, my background well, notmy background, but my background
(04:27):
in online business was in theagency space, or still is,
should I say, because we stillhave the agency at a very high
level but the margins just getshot the fuck out.
And it's actually.
It's funny because it's notactually your fault, right,
because we take like rev shares.
Okay for some people, so ifwe're only taking, only taking
(04:47):
40% of a rev share, well, that'sbefore everything else comes
out, okay.
And I was mentored by a lot ofthe very big agency guys and
they were telling me to keepscaling and keep scaling, keep
scaling it in, with the ideathat the margin would get
swallowed, like that was thewhole logic.
And some of the guys thatmentored me, basically, they're
doing like 25 million a year andthey're probably doing around
(05:09):
7% margin, probably 7%, dude,and it's fucking crazy.
And that's because of thenature of the business.
Now, when I speak to some otherpeople in the coaching space,
they're also getting shot withtheir margin right, which is
just hilarious, because that'sthe opposite of how coaching
should be.
It should be cashflow, itshould feed your life, you
should be able to travel and doeverything that you're doing
right, and that was my intentiontoo.
(05:31):
That was from the verybeginning.
Before we move any further, Ihave one short question to ask
you have you been enjoying theseepisodes so far?
Because, if you have, I wouldtruly appreciate it if you
subscribe to the channel to helpmore business owners grow their
online business today.
Darren (05:45):
Yeah, you absolutely nailed it, man.
And what I've come to realizeis like there's no perfect model
, there's no right model.
There's just the right modelfor you, yeah.
And so it really depends onwhat your goal is now with like
an agency, as long as it can runwithout you.
Now you've got a sellable asset.
So even if you are running 7%margins like is the goal
cashflow or like a big exit yeah, at least you got some
optionality there.
(06:06):
But with coaching it's like man, you really like don't.
And last year I was at theHermoses HQ in Vegas and went to
one of their scaling workshopsand I met some guys there.
One of them is doing like, yeah, 1.1 million a month with their
coaching, they've addedsoftware.
And like lap fans all 1.1million a month with their
(06:26):
coaching, they've added softwareand like latin fans, all this
kind of stuff and they're askingquestions because we did like
these round table events or likethis round table exercise where
it was like one of like thehormoses, like top staff would
like come into our circle oflike 15 of us or whatever.
We'd be able to just like askthem questions and then they
move to the next circle.
We would get like, then we getlike the head of sales, then he
would go, and then we get likethe head of marketing and stuff
(06:46):
like that.
And so this guy asked the samequestion to like three different
people and he's like hey, we'redoing this, we're trying to go
for like a big exit.
Like what are we missing?
What are we not doing?
We try this, this that you know, like dude, to be honest, like
info is just not that valuable.
Like info, businesses aren'tthat sellable and they're not
that desirable because, likeevery day that goes on, like
(07:08):
information gets less and lessvaluable.
And so they're like, obviously,if you add software to it,
that's better.
If you add like live events andit's like an awesome community
and like some sort of like adiverse acquisition process and
you're, you're in much bettershape, but still it's just it's
not one of those things that'slike insanely attractive to
(07:29):
investors.
And yeah, so I was like huh, Igot my answer there.
Jeremy (07:35):
Dude, 100%.
And like my, uh, one of my goodfriends, will Brown.
You might be familiar with Willonline.
He actually lives like down theroad from me, uh, a couple of
miles down the road from me, andhe sold his company.
He sold his education business,the trading business, but he
ran into like a ton of issueswith it.
Like I think they were at like600K a month, 700k a month, but
like ad costs just threw theroof and he just got sick of it
(07:58):
so he just wanted to get rid ofit, you know.
And then he now he's rebuilt itagain and he has like his new
business, which is build, growand exit.
And he always asked me do Iever want to sell my business?
He asked me like one, basicallylike once a month, but it's
from a different nature.
Like my background was insoftware man.
Like I literally came fromsoftware and this was before
like the AI software era, whereit was a bit easier.
Like I mean, I was in software10 years ago, dude, when I was
(08:21):
19,.
Which is fucking crazy.
And that was the days wherebyyou would raise like 14 million
and then hire like a hundreddevelopers and just pray to God
that it's going to work out.
That was actually.
It was like a prey model.
So I think just coming fromthat set my expectations really
good in the education andcoaching and agency space and
(08:42):
just being like, yeah, you'redoing, I heard quite recently
which being like, yeah, you'redoing, I heard quite recently
which is like you're doing it toget an exit every single year.
That's how much you should bedoing it.
Right, you should be makingmoney that it's an exit
equivalent every single year.
A mini exit, should I say man,that's so good.
Darren (08:58):
Yeah, I love that concept and uh yeah, because why
not?
Jeremy (09:02):
you know, that's the whole the idea with cash flow,
you know.
But, um, yeah, fucking dude,let's just, let's just start
recording and then let's just go, because I feel like, um, I
feel, like conversations we havein general.
but, dude, I want to saybeforehand like a big thank you
for everything, though, and uh,I feel like you fucking, you've
really really set the way forthis stuff.
So this is going to be, this isgoing to be great man.
And uh, you can also askquestions back to me too, right?
(09:23):
Like it's not a one-way system,and I actually do have a
coaching call in like an hourand 15 minutes, so we'll go
sharp, we'll smash it from there.
Darren (09:31):
Sounds good.
I do have to run a boxing inlike probably 50 minutes as well
, so just a heads up there.
Jeremy (09:37):
Yeah, so you have a call at half past.
Yeah, yeah, uh, yeah, I'll haveto run sick then.
Perfect, awesome.
By any chance, can you recordyour audio on your side?
Um, you don't have like asoftware or some shit on your
laptop?
Darren (09:51):
if you don't, it's chill I'm sure I could get uh obs uh,
it's fine, fuck it, don't worryabout it.
Jeremy (09:58):
Don't worry about it, dude.
I just want to make sure thatthe audio comes out like super
clear on that side, but I thinkeverything looks fine.
Yeah, it's fine, cool.
All right, rob, let's kick off,all right.
Where I want to start is what'sthe biggest lie in the online
business space that everyonebelieves, that you don't believe
I think the biggest lie thatthere is is like there's a
(10:21):
perfect model that's going tosolve all of your problems.
Darren (10:23):
And I think a lot of people get sucked into this
thing where it's like there's aperfect model that's going to
solve all of your problems.
And I think a lot of people getsucked into this thing where
it's like they're just kind oflooking for that next thing and
that thing is going to be better.
Now I will say there'sdifferent strategies, different
models that are better thanothers, but how do you define
better?
I think it really comes down towhat's best for you.
There's no right model, there'sjust the right model for you.
And what that means to me islike some people they want to
(10:48):
just see how far they can taketheir business and they want to
scale to one, two, 3 million amonth, but then, like their
margins absolutely tank and likethere's tons of headaches and
stuff like that.
And other people they're'relike I don't want that at all.
I just want to make 40k a month,travel the world and like I'm
(11:08):
happy and I'm fired up, and so Ithink it really depends on what
the end goal is and what yourend game looks like, and then
reverse engineering it fromthere.
And so I think with thatthere's like yeah, it's just an
of like you got to get clear onwhat you want was important to
you, and then everything elsecan fall into place from there.
Jeremy (11:31):
So you might be familiar with James Kemp.
He uh, he was coaching underTacky Moore, who's worked at Dan
Martell, and a few other guys,and um James, big mentor to mine
.
He said to me, he always saidto me.
He said what does success looklike for you and for your
clients, for people that joinyour program or join my program?
Success could be just paying.
Success could be just beingaround other people that are
(11:53):
killers.
Success doesn't need to be ahundred K a month and a striped
screenshot and on Instagram anda Rolex and in Miami and in
Dubai.
It's so interesting to observe,right, and I look at it through
that lens because then you canget better results when you
understand what success is foryou and also what are you
optimizing for.
And it's a nice mental modelbecause I know that you balance
(12:16):
your life very well with yourbusiness and even, like you said
, there were profitability to melike 50 fucking times already.
Darren (12:22):
So it shows that, like at its core, you're not looking
for, like this crazy maniacbusiness, almost something
that's like calm and justpeaceful, to be perfectly honest
yeah, I think right now, likeand this, this shifts over time
like a couple years ago, when Ifirst started the business, I
was like I will die before Idon't hit a hundred K a month.
(12:44):
I'm like I will sacrificeeverything, that's all I care
about, like bull in a China shopjust ramming my head through
the wall until I get there.
And then I think I hit it monthseven and then month eight, we
doubled again and it was just meand a setter and so I was
taking, like I was the CSM, Iwas doing all the content, sales
(13:05):
, like ops, admin, likeeverything, and I just had a
setter booking calls on mycalendar, I was blasting ads and
it was so much fun and I thinkI had like 87% margins too,
because I was paying my setter10% and like not spending much
on ads at all and they were justreally, really effective,
because back then the marketingmessage was like brand new and
(13:26):
it was like a super newopportunity and so, anyways,
yeah, that was awesome.
And then I hit it and I waslike, cool, what now?
100, then we did 200 a monthand then, like, from there I was
like, okay, now I'm going tosort of build a bit of a team,
because I don't want to beworking 12 hours a day and doing
(13:49):
absolutely everything.
So then I built a team I thinkthere's five or six of us to
kind of have one butt per seatright now.
And I feel like now I have, likeyou said, I have a lot more
balance in my life and I canhave a lot more fun.
I can be a lot more creative tocreate better content, create
better content for my clients,show up more prepared for
coaching calls, spend more timewith clients and stuff like that
(14:11):
too, and now like it's justyeah, I think at the end of the
day, you want to optimize,especially with coaching,
because truly I don't thinkcoaching is like like building a
coaching business is a sellableasset, especially like with
what I do is like marketingcoaching it's like man, like
instagram could have an updatetomorrow and like everything I
(14:31):
teach could just be irrelevant,and so that's like super risky
for investors, like maybe forlike, and it's super competitive
too.
Like there's millions of othercompetitors.
It's ridiculously expensive forads for my niche and everything
like that.
So like I'm not going to sellit and so with that I that means
you gotta like.
I love what you said earlier,but like, have like a mini exit
(14:53):
every year, yeah, and so thatshifts into profitability.
Jeremy (14:56):
So if you optimize for peace and profit and just like
simplicity, I think that's therecipe for success yeah, dude, I
think I've really observed thatfrom you because of, like, who
you've been mentored by tooright, like you've had some
really good people in yourcorner, and it's the hand over
the shoulder equivalent right,which is like hey, don't do this
, this is kind of dumb.
(15:17):
I'm going to save you like 10years of agony and pain, because
we all fall victim to that, andI absolutely have as well as
well.
So there needs to be thatbalance between the two.
One observation I've made ofyou as well is your positioning
is so dialed in right.
You have like an art to be ableto position yourself in the
market in equivalent to a redocean, which is just filled with
(15:38):
like people chopping each otherup to where you've kind of
created like a blue oceanopportunity, which is like the
ads and setter model is is veryunique to you.
It's very, very unique to youand I think that's been a big
unlock.
That's like, oh, jeremy, is theads plus setter, dude, which is
very difficult to be able tofind.
Like.
How did you manufacture thattype of positioning to really
(16:01):
become like one of one in thatspace?
Darren (16:04):
Great question and I nerd out about this stuff.
So we're going to go deep here.
Let's go, and hopefully it'llbe very tactical.
So, like you kind of alluded to, the last thing you want to do
is build an improvement offersaying I'm going to help you do
organic marketing better, orlike scale your coaching
business in a better way.
It's like you got to becompletely different, and so a
(16:25):
couple of years ago, what Inoticed is that every single
person was saying I'll help youget more coaching clients
without spending a dime on ads.
And then I came along I waslike that's stupid, because I
don't want to do organic, Idon't want to spend my time
doing that.
I'd rather spend my money tothen help me get more time back.
And so then I was like I'llhelp you get clients with ads so
(16:47):
you no longer have to do allthe things you hate.
And so one of my favoritethings when it comes to
marketing is throwing rocks atthe enemy.
So you had to create an enemy,which is, for me, organic
marketing coaches.
Coaches that tell you I'm goingto help you scale your coaching
business by teaching you how todo organic, send cold DMS, try
to go viral your coachingbusiness by teaching you how to
do organic, send cold DMS, tryto go viral, posting Facebook
(17:11):
groups, all that kind of stuff.
And the reason like I getpassionate about it is because,
like I used to do that.
So before starting summit acouple of years ago, I worked
for another coach in the space.
When I joined him, um, he wasactually my old business coach
when I was growing myadvertising agency and and I was
seeing success in the agency.
And then he was like dude, likeyou're crushing it, do you want
to join my team as my headcoach and teach my other
(17:31):
students how you've been able togrow?
I was like, sure, because I wasgetting burnt out with the
agency.
And then I joined his team as acoach.
A month later his sales guyquit, so I started taking sales
calls for him.
And guy quit, so I startedtaking sales calls for him and I
was like, hey, dude, why don'tI run ads for you too, and we'll
just pack up the calendar?
He's like, yeah, let's do it.
In like six, seven months wewent from 40 K a month to 220.
(17:52):
And it was just like four youngdudes in our twenties just
blasting it.
But we were teaching organic,we're teaching organic marketing
.
And so, like we were making aton of money, but then, like our
clients were like grindingtheir asses off to try and just
like get through it, and I waslike something's wrong here.
It's like we're doing one thingbut we're teaching the other
(18:12):
thing.
And so I started teaching ourad strategy to some of our
mastermind clients and they werecrushing it and things were
like going really, really wellfor them and I was like okay, I,
I'm like I got something here.
And immediately, like they werejust like two, three, four
extra business.
(18:33):
I was like okay, and then somestuff happened with that um,
with that business, that mentor,and then I left.
The rest of the team followedme and then a couple months
later, I started summit and thenI was like I'm just going to
teach what works, which wasrunning ads on Instagram.
I had an appointment setter,booking calls and then long form
on YouTube with some salesassets like VSLs, retargeting
(18:55):
ads, all that kind of stuff.
And so I just did what workedand then use that to create the
enemy of the organic marketingcoach.
Because another thing, too, islike I don't work with beginners
.
I don't want to like I'veworked, I've helped hundreds of
beginners start their coachingbusiness and pick their niche
and all of that when I used tobe a CSM for him.
(19:16):
And I just didn't want to dothat.
I want to work with establishedpeople who are like five to 30
K a month and just like ready tojust like they're good at what
they do, they know how to sell.
They just need more people tosell to.
And so when I got super clearon that, I was like all right,
that means to get to five to 30K a month.
They've been in other programsbefore.
(19:36):
I kept hearing that on salescalls, yeah, I've been burned
before, you know, and so there'sa lot of pain there.
So I'm like okay, I can eitherbe part of the pain or be part
of the solution to the pain.
And so I was like, yeah, noshit, they burned you because
this is what they promised tosell you.
And so I was like that's thereason why you got burned,
that's the reason why you'restill stuck is because you're
(19:58):
doing organic and you're justrelying on that inconsistent,
it's unpredictable and you can'tactually scale.
And I'm like, on the other hand, with ads, you build a system
put $1 in, you get $4 out, $10out, consistently, predictably,
every single month.
You just get people coming toyou and so I basically took all
(20:19):
the pains and problems that theyhad with all of the other
models and competitors and thenI was like, well, let's just
flip it on its head and throwrocks at them.
Like, yeah, they do suck.
I'm on your side.
This is why I do what I do, andhere's how.
It's better and different, andthe main thing here is different
is better than better.
Jeremy (20:40):
Double top on that, go a bit deeper on that.
Darren (20:42):
It goes with the improvement offer versus new
opportunity.
Right, it's an improvementoffer, then it's not that sexy,
it's not that attractive, it'sjust like, oh, I'll help you,
just do what you're currentlydoing, but like a little bit
better.
You're like, yeah, that's niceto have, but it's not a need to
have, whereas if it's different,then it doesn't have all of the
emotional pain associated withwhat I've already tried and
(21:05):
didn't work before and itpromises to solve the pain as
well.
So it's different from whatI've tried.
So I don't have this biastowards, I don't have this
emotional pain towards thatthing.
So, bringing this back down toearth ads, for example there's
kind of two sides of this.
It's people who have nevertried as before.
(21:26):
Now, ads and setters is like adifferent new opportunity from
organic, so there's no pain yet.
Or there's the people that havetried ads and they wasted money
and they lost money and itdidn't work for them.
And then I'm like, okay, well,the reason didn't do that, like
the reason it didn't work isbecause you had to build all
these funnels and have all thesecampaigns and landing pages and
(21:48):
there's all this complexity.
Like my ass, all you need islike 30 bucks a day and an
Instagram account and that's all.
There's no landing pages, no,nothing.
And so it's like super, supersimple.
And then I'm like the reason itdidn't work is because it's too
complex.
You're trying to buildsomething that was just like way
(22:08):
too complicated and simplescales, fancy fails.
Jeremy (22:12):
Dude.
That's so interesting.
There's so much miniobservations in there as to why
other programs fail as well.
Right, because if you're overpromising, like one specific
thing, like going viral, right,going viral on Instagram, going
viral on YouTube, like that isone tiny segment of everything
that needs to happen, right?
Let me give an example.
(22:34):
So, obviously, my background inthe online space was in
podcasting, okay, and our mediacompany is a podcast media
company, so we run a lot offamous people's podcasts.
And then our education businessin the beginning, version one
was just teaching people andhelp people get into the podcast
space.
But we quickly and I mean veryquickly iterated on that, which
was helping podcasters monetizetheir audience, and then we
(22:57):
swapped it to helping businessowners make more money with
content.
And the reason why I'm sayingthis is because content was only
a proponent Okay, it was one.
We call it one third of theequation.
The other third was sales man.
They had to fucking learn howto sell.
They had to learn something.
They had to learn how to close.
They needed some system.
They needed some way to getpeople true, whether it's sell
(23:18):
by chat, whether it's a callfunnel and then they needed a
fucking good offer, so theyneeded a delivery system that
had a good offer to be able todo something, because it didn't
matter how good your content wasor it didn't matter how good
you were showing up on camera Ifyou didn't have like, let's say
, like the three pieces.
But if I compare that to otherpeople that are like, oh dude,
just just create a YouTube video, just create like a, an
(23:40):
Instagram reel, they're sellinglike a symptomatic issue,
symptomatic fix to much deeper,root cause problem.
I think that's why peopleliterally get burned, because we
have the exact same feedbackwhich is like, hey, I bought
these programs before I was toldto do this and it didn't work.
Because a lot of our clientsthey well, they would initially
get caught in masturbation,procrastination land, which is
(24:03):
like they just think about whatthey're doing so much versus
actually physically doing it,running that ad, getting people
to come there having aconversation, actually selling
the program.
You know there has to be thataction component which I think
you've really, really nailedwith your clients to get them to
like do shit, literally just doshit.
You know there is thatcomponent.
Are you an agency owner, coachor consultant looking to scale
(24:26):
your online business?
At Vox, we help business ownersscale their online business
with content.
We help them specifically builda high ticket offer, create
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If you wanna see more aboutexactly how we do this, hit the
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Darren (24:49):
Oh, we can go deep here.
Man, You're opening a can ofworms.
Jeremy (24:52):
Let's go.
Darren (24:57):
It's awesome.
So a couple of things there.
Yeah, you're exactly right.
A lot of people try to put abandaid over a bullet hole and
they just try to mask thesymptoms instead of solving the
root problem, and that is a hugecause for exactly what you said
.
And on the other side, it'slike you have to balance, like
the delivery, like the front end, the backend, so what you
market and sell, versus what youactually deliver.
(25:18):
And so, on the one hand, youkind of have to like at least
well, I won't say you, you kindof have to.
I'll just tell you what I do.
And so I just sell as insetters.
90% of my clients come to mebecause they're like hey, jeremy
, I need more leads or betterleads.
I'm like, okay, cool, that'sthe problem that they think they
have.
(25:38):
It could be their offer, itcould be their sales sucks, it
could be who knows what right,but they think that their
problem is they just need more,better leads, and so that's
that's what I sell, that's how Iposition it.
My whole front end, all mymarketing and everything is just
ads and setters, ads andsetters, more leads, better
leads.
Now, when they get into theprogram, it's a different story.
(26:00):
Yes, we focus on ads andsetters and I can talk about
like how I designed the programtoo.
We can, like I said we can, wecan get into this.
I love this shit and I nerd outabout it, but that's what they
buy.
However, we're not going to letthem run ads and hire a setter
if their offer sucks.
And so the first place we startwith them, like once they sign
(26:22):
up, it's like within like a dayor two, get on onboarding call
and we send them through offeroptimization.
So that's where we get clear onthe positioning, on the
messaging Okay, who exactly arewe speaking to?
How are?
How are we going to speak tothem as well?
What makes them tick?
What are their pains or theirdesires?
All that kind of stuff.
So we get crystal clear on that,on the offer and the
(26:42):
positioning of it.
And then we can take that clearon that on the offer and the
positioning of it, and then wecan take that, put that into the
ads.
And so, if we think aboutthere's like a handful of
different things, you need toscale like your business, you
need your offers, you gotta begood, you gotta make really good
content, you gotta have ads toget people watching your content
, you gotta have like DMconversations, you gotta have a
sales conversation conversation.
(27:04):
You gotta have delivery systemsand ops and all that kind of
stuff.
And if I like, a lot of thetime what we do is we help
people with their offer.
Like I said at the start, andif I sold that on the front end,
if I marketed like I'm theoffer helper guy, it's like
dude'd be broke, we wouldn't betalking right now because nobody
(27:26):
thinks that they need that.
So you got to sell them whatthey want and then give them
what they need on the backend.
And so we start there.
Then we go into ads, launchthose Once we got the leads
coming through.
Now we got to warm them up andnurture them, build a VSL,
create very intentional contentand brand positioning to then
create the separation betweenyou and everybody else, throw
(27:48):
rocks at the enemy and just kindof create a blue ocean, even if
it's in a fiercely bloody redocean.
And then from there appointmentcenter, dial in sales and go
from there Like we have fivegroup coaching calls a week.
Only one of them is about adsand that's like ads marketing.
That's mine on Monday.
(28:08):
And then we've got one onappointment setting, one on
delivery and operations and thentwo on sales, because we can
give them a ton of leads withthe ads, but if they can't close
them, like you said, then allof a sudden the leads suck and
Jeremy's program sucks A hundredpercent.
And yeah, so it's.
Uh, it's a fun, fun game, man.
Jeremy (28:27):
There's a lot of moving pieces it's always the case,
right, it's always the case togive people what they want.
So you can give them what theyneed.
Like that's why people get intofitness for a six-pack and to
look good in miami.
But then they're like, oh, likeI actually sleep better and
then I train better and then Ihave better relationship with my
friends and myself andeverything.
Like you, you have tounderstand, like almost like,
what's the internal driverinitially, which is like leads.
(28:49):
People think they have a leadsproblem, that they actually have
an offer problem.
They actually have a salesproblem, and even even guys like
it's so interesting, becausethe way that you view things is,
you know, you can't scale theshit out of it if you don't know
how to close them.
Right, if you can't close adoor, how the hell are you going
to close a 6k paid in full?
Like it's just, it's almostlike obvious.
But you don't want to hurtsomeone's ego too, right?
(29:10):
You want to actually helpsomeone.
That's consult of selling andshowing people.
Oh, yes, this is exactly whereyou are and this is where you're
going to get to Now.
Obviously, your ad strategy issuper unique and I really want
to double tap on this.
What's your opinion on runningan ad to a VSL so landing page
versus running an ad to afollower account and then
nurturing the leads overall.
Darren (29:30):
Great question.
So the traditional way ofrunning ads and this is like all
of the programs and coursesI've ever taken on ads is add to
a landing page with a VSL andthen call, and I think that used
to work really well five, six,seven years ago, but now it's so
expensive and it's so likecommon that most of the people
(29:51):
in the industry, the people thatyou're selling to, have become
pretty sophisticated At leastthe people in my niche, right,
they understand what it is, andso I don't think it's as
effective, plus a lot of thoseguys.
It's like what?
Like how they defined good andsuccessful was like a three X
row, as you're getting a one tothree return on your money, or
(30:14):
three to one return on yourmoney.
You're like an advertising Godand you're like you have this
incredible thing for me, if Iget a three to one, wrote like
row as I should shut my businessdown and get a nine to five and
like.
That's kind of the way I see it.
So the follower ads yes, you'resending them to your Instagram
profile.
Now the downside of it is it'slike impossible to track the
(30:38):
track ability.
The measurability is horrific,but the profitability is
disgusting, and so like on anygiven month, like we're
averaging a 10 to a 12 X return.
Some months it's like up to 18.
And that means like the marginsare way higher.
But, like I said, the tracking,the measurability, the testing
(31:00):
isn't as robust as like a VSLfunnel or something like that
too.
Now, vsl funnel is morescalable, for sure, because it's
like you can just put it all inand get three out or four like
pretty consistently, whereas thefollowers it's like a bit of a
slower burn.
But I think, especially in likea super competitive industry,
it's good to like, it's never abad thing to have more qualified
people with money and pain inyour audience watching your
(31:22):
content, getting to know likeand trust you every single day,
then not, and so I'd like to getyour opinion on this, because
for tracking, this is the way Ido it.
Jeremy (31:35):
So I want to guess you tell me this is terrible if you
want to.
So spend money on ads, followads, let's say a hundred dollars
a day.
Just keep it simple.
Total followers that come in,let's just say it's 50, and then
of that 50, how many arequalified in that day?
So let's just say it's 50.
And then of that 50, how manyare qualified in that day?
So let's say 30.
And then of that 30, therebeing conversations are started.
We just do a special like kindof tag or a special symbol or
(31:57):
something in the conversation sothat then in T90, so within 90
days, if they book, we canattribute that to the follower
ad.
Now is that stupid or is that agood idea?
Because for me that's kind oflike checking out logically.
Darren (32:11):
Yeah, no, that makes total sense and that's kind of
what we do and a lot of ourclients do.
So, yeah, I think you hit thenail on the head there and like
but what I'm like seeing withlike the trackability is like
that is like a super manualprocess 100%.
But what I'm like saying withlike the trackability is like
that is like a super manualprocess.
It's very like hands-on rightand so there's ways to get
around it, whereas like vsl,it's like you can see exactly
(32:31):
which specific ad they came fromand like when, and like it
tracks like all of their clicks,like throughout the entire like
journey, and so, um, yeah, kindof just again, two different
ways.
I love the follower ads because, like anybody can do it, like
I've had clients in their likelate 40s, early 50s that like
(32:53):
don't know what an instagramreal is, start making reels.
Jeremy (32:58):
we made one ad and then, like one of my clients, tom,
helped me go from zero to 100k amonth with one ad I saw that
dude, I saw that guy, I actuallysaw that interview and I was
like if that guy can do itbecause he's like obviously in
like mid 50s, like probably likein that kind of like boomer
stage and like anybody could doit right, like quite literally I
say that respectfully like theguy probably has no background
(33:21):
in fucking instagram.
Darren (33:22):
He probably doesn't even use instagram, you know,
historically yeah, he didn'tknow what a reel was and he
jokes about that all the time,like he's uh, we meet up every
single week and he's in mymastermind and like he tells
that story all the time too.
And yeah, he's like, but it'sjust simple man, and and that's
it okay.
Jeremy (33:43):
So what?
What do you do in those ads tolike crush it?
That stand, that really standout right, because those you
know asymmetrical returns you'regetting are based on how good
your scripts are.
How base are good are youractual fucking ads actually?
Darren (33:57):
are.
So a couple things.
One of the main things I focuson is financial qualification,
because the worst thing ever inthe world is when you just have
an audience full of broke people, and that's not fun, that's not
something I want to do and it'snot something I want to put my
clients through either.
And so, um, the main thing islike making sure that you're
financially qualified.
So what I mean by that is likein the ad copy and what you're
(34:18):
saying, how are you calling outpeople that have money and how
are you repelling people thatdon't?
And so like there's ways youcan do it.
I've had, like, for example,fitness coaches scale to seven
figures.
Like one guy, adrian, he was atlike 20 K a month doing organic
for five years and then welaunched one ad that four X the
business up to the seven figuremark, and in that he was
(34:40):
targeting like women that wantedto lose weight.
But we needed to find likewomen that had money to invest,
because one thing that we couldhear all the time was, like they
need to talk to their husbandand you get like kind of
permission because like he wasthe breadwinner and stuff like
that.
So like, how can we go afterwomen that like have their own
money.
And so the script with that itwas like, if you're a career,
(35:02):
career driven woman, struggling,or whose letter health slip as
a result of being too busy withyour work, this is for you.
It's like you're probably likeadvancing your career, you're
making great money, but you'vejust kind of let your health
fall to the back burner as aresult of being so busy.
And then it's like, in otherwords, you've got the money and
the finances dialed in, but notthe health and fitness.
(35:23):
And so, like we're kind of flipflopping back and forth between
a you have the money, b youhave the pain that we solve.
A you have the money, b youhave the pain.
A you have the money, b youhave the pain.
And so that's how we'requalifying.
And so, like, people thataren't advancing in their career
, people that don't have theirmoney and their finances dialed
in, aren't going to listen.
They're probably going to keepscrolling, which is exactly what
(35:44):
we want.
And so, as a result, he's ableto sell a $4,500 fitness
coaching offer to people thathave money and do it with a
relative amount of ease.
Jeremy (35:59):
It's so interesting, right, because the way I think
about it is willing and able.
So everyone is willing to workwith Jeremy.
Everyone wants to join hisprogram, but not everyone is
able to pay $9,500.
And I think that's a veryinteresting way to separate out
your audience, because peopleare like, oh, like, I'm getting
attention, right, and it's aone-on-one like didn't get
(36:21):
attention as a child, and nowI'm getting attention on social
media.
They are willing to work withyou, and then they book up a
shit ton of calls and thenthey're not able to.
And dude, just for a bit ofcontext on this about how your
audience can get super skewedit's a guy that trains at my gym
, nice guy.
He has 2.7 million subscriberson YouTube, 800k on Instagram
(36:42):
and making like between two to5K a month.
Because his audience is filledwith actual women, would you
believe, cause it's like thetype of workouts he does.
His audience is filled withactual women, would you believe,
because it's like the type ofworkouts he does, his audience
is filled with people that arejust generally broke and that's,
I guess, a that's a cause andeffect of creating just a bunch
of like very viral content, andnow his ecosystem is just
(37:04):
contained of people that willnever buy.
So we were like chatting and Iwas like, okay, you know, for an
audience of that size do youeven run a call, funnel, right,
because the audience is so big.
It's like, how do you evensolve that problem, bro?
And I think like the logic islike initially see like who
books in, or how can you book in, or how do you set them, and
then get to the point of, okay,maybe, maybe, just maybe there's
(37:27):
a small 1% of people that areable to actually come and
actually work with you.
Darren (37:32):
Yeah, few things here.
So, first of all, I thinksomething that would be great to
filter is like a low ticketproduct and then from there
going for the call ascension onthe back end of that.
So then you're you're onlyoffering a call to people that
have proven that they're buyers.
Yes, correct, rather likebuyers are different than leads,
and so that would be a goodkind of like filter there.
(37:55):
It could be $27, it could be $7, it could be 97.
It doesn't matter, right.
And then on the backend of that, have like a phone setter
calling all the buyers or likesome sort of like CSM type thing
client support rep, helpingthem like go through it, um, on
the back end, and then fromthere try to go for the upsells
if they're qualified, um, soyeah, that could be, could be a
(38:17):
good way around it.
Um, we'll see.
But uh, yeah, that's crazy manlike.
I had a client a few weeks agoit's kind of like a similar
thing.
He had a reel popped off, gotlike over a million views and
he's like dude, my businessabsolutely tanked because it was
just like the reel was likekind of unrelated to what he was
(38:37):
doing.
So he's a fitness coach workingwith catholic men and helping
them like get in shape.
And so he made a reel justabout like religion in general.
That was like a little likepolarizing and so it popped off.
So we got a lot of people thatare just interested in like
religion and not fitness.
(38:58):
And then now he had like tens ofthousands of new followers come
through that aren't interestedin fitness and the
transformation that he helpspeople achieve, and they don't
have the pain, they're justthere because they were like
interested in this, this, likeone reel on a different kind of
unrelated topic.
Yeah, and so you're going tokind of let the, let the wave
(39:19):
rot, let the wave ride out, andthen fix things and kind of like
patch it up from there.
So a lot of times it can domore harm than good.
Oh dude 100.
Jeremy (39:30):
The way I think about it is that every, every video is
like a vsl, whether it's a realor youtube video, and then every
written copy is sales copy.
So, looking at a true dot lensand even with our clients that
we work with, like, I want tomake sure that there's like this
one-to-one relationship betweenthe content you produce it's
long form or short form and howdoes it relate to your product
(39:52):
or service.
So, like, if I'm talking, ifI'm talking literally about like
equipment in to do with apodcast, like that has to relate
to somewhere in my fuckingprogram that has some sort of
equipment alignment, otherwisewhat am I doing it for?
Like, literally, what am Idoing it for?
I can talk to my friends aboutthis shit in my spare time.
If I'm only if I have a coupleof shots in a week to put out
(40:14):
posts.
I'm not going to be putting outstuff.
That's in a misalignment.
But it's a weird thing becausepeople don't get that right,
because I guess there is likevalue-based content.
So you know, those offers I sellto, let's say, christian
founders.
It's based on values, right,the value of being Christian and
whatever that aligns with interms of your belief system.
And then there's the operationand mechanism.
(40:34):
That's like fitness or businessor relationships or whatever
that may be.
So again, it's positioningright.
Brandon is actually so good atthat.
You know he's targeting hisfitness.
It's just like Christianbusiness owners, and he's done
such an amazing job with thattoo, which is separating out his
uh, his entire audience.
Darren (40:54):
Totally, yeah, and that's how you build a really
good brand.
Like a cult like audience iswhen you have an aligned vision
and values and talk about thattoo.
And so I've been going reallydeep here because, um, about a
month from, I'm hosting a clientretreat here in my hometown, in
Kelowna, bc, canada, and asmall town like middle of
(41:17):
nowhere, it's a nightmare to getto, but we've got, I think, 45
people flying out and coming tothis event.
I actually opened it up tonon-clients for the first time
ever, just testing it out, we'llsee.
And I got dan martell speakingand his right hand man and
another buddy doing a million amonth and, excuse me, unreal.
But a couple of days are likejust me and I'm building this,
(41:41):
this training on how to build acult-like audience, because
that's how you do it and likethat's how, like, the most
successful people in the spaceare the most successful people
in the space are the mostsuccessful people in the space.
Yeah, they build a call likeaudience, like russell brunson
did that with quick funnels,even like andy elliott, like you
can see.
Like so when you understandbehind the the scenes, like what
(42:05):
the things are, what the boxesare to check, you're like oh, I
can see this guy doing thatexactly, dude.
So 100.
Jeremy (42:13):
I have a few crazy stories and that's the first
thing on the mastermind dude.
Best of luck with that.
I just ran my second mastermindthis year and it's so good for
building a cult literally sogood.
One of my best mates, laracosta, spoke at it and one of
our aspects we called, we jokedon it, calling like building a
cult, like how do you do it?
So I so I ran my firstmastermind in January in Bali
(42:33):
and it was for mostly clients,80% clients.
All of them came back in Mayfor the next one.
Plus, we had external peoplethen and then they came into the
ecosystem and were like Jesus,like what's going on here?
Like there's, like it's.
So it's a strong click, youknow, and the people that are
inside are really inside.
We on click, you know, and thepeople that are inside are
really inside.
We all think the way, same way.
We all build the samebusinesses in the same way and
(42:54):
it was crazy because some guys,to your point, like they're
making like 200k a month, 200k amonth, 400k a month.
You attract person that's basedon the values as a result.
So that was like a huge, hugeunlock.
But one thing that was veryapparent was my team and it's a
small team.
A lot of my kind of main kindof guys were there.
They flew in.
So, just for context, peopleflew from all around the world
(43:15):
America, europe, dubai,australia, to Bali, where I'm
based and the biggestobservation people made was of
our team.
They're like, oh like, the teamis super strong, super strong
values.
You all guys are working thesame thing.
And I had a post on LinkedIn.
I know people think LinkedIn isfor losers, but I think it's
really good.
I had a post on LinkedIn aboutme and one of my sales reps.
So one of my sales reps.
He was making $150 a month inVietnam and now he's joined us.
(43:39):
He's making around $7,000 amonth.
And I had this post on LinkedInand I went like super viral,
very polarizing in terms of likewhat the fuck's your excuse?
And guess who messaged me?
Andy Elliott messaged me in DM,being like love the story about
you and your sales rep.
Dude, keep crushing it, keep atit.
And when I looked at it I waslike that was the exact attitude
(44:04):
that he has around sales and itwas a real full circle moment.
Darren (44:07):
Man Wow, that's hilarious.
Man, go ahead.
Oh no, I was just gonna sayit's crazy like the impact of
the live events specifically canhave, though.
It just makes everything likeit brings it all back down to
earth and like that genuineconnection.
Yeah, the in-person energy isnext level.
Jeremy (44:22):
And dude, I always talk about this too, right, Because
for our agency, a lot of theguys are kind of siloed because
they're just doing their ownthing.
They work with us as an agencypartner.
We bring them to our events andit really connects everyone too
.
Because one of my mentors saidto me before I said why is the
relationship between coachingand agency clients different?
And he said because you do aservice to them, so you are a
(44:44):
servant of them.
It was such an interestingobservation and because you do
something for someone, therelationship is just different,
just different, right, um, notnecessarily positive or negative
.
Sometimes it can be negative,but we're doing our last event
in september, so turn threeevents this year and I have like
matt lakovich and william brownspeaking and again it's just
(45:04):
bringing people together.
And, oh, to be fair, this timelike there's so much emphasis on
the content and what we'reteaching.
But what I would say, what Ialways say, is that the most
value is between the members,when they're interacting on
their own.
So when we're just havingdinner and having lunch, that's
when they get the most valuefrom people.
And I love, like six monthsfrom now, people I see like
(45:25):
people that were at the eventrecording podcasts together.
They're like doing partnershipstogether.
They're running their own eventtogether and and it's, it's
dude, that's like, that's likethe most beautiful part of
business.
I think that's why I loverunning events so much.
Darren (45:37):
Yeah, man, a hundred percent, and I've literally said
the exact same thing too.
So the last one we hosted wasin March in Miami and I
literally said that to everyone.
I'm like, guys, it's like I'vegot a lot of really good stuff
planned for you, like for theworkshops I'm going to be
teaching, but I promise you,your biggest takeaways are going
to be from the conversationslike around the dinner table or
(46:00):
around the pool and stuff likethat.
And it's like we had someincredible like speakers, like
another buddy, austin, whoscaled to a couple hundred K a
month Like he spoke.
I have a buddy who was the top,the top sales rep for Tony
Robbins for like and personallyone-on-one mentored by him for
like 15 years and now like heset the record for doing like
(46:20):
$12.6 million from like onesingle presentation and like
crazy, like, now the top salesreps at Tony Robbins get the,
the award named after him.
And so he came like, did thisincredible presentation with us,
hung out with us for the day,went to the miami heat game and
stuff, and it was like unrealand uh, it's so like a, it's
(46:41):
super cool being able to like,be like in relation, like in
orbit, with guys like that, um,and like be able to attract that
and help, like help my clientslike also get that energy too,
um, but also they like, yeah,just a lot of the feedback that
I got was like how hispresentation made them feel, how
(47:06):
his standards made them feel,but then also just that like
nothing to do with anything thatwe organized too and just
completely like irrelevant andjust like, oh yeah, this dinner
conversation I had justcompletely shifted everything
that I I ever did in my entirebusiness and now like it's just,
it's crazy and the energy islike nuts afterwards too, it's
(47:28):
like people go home, they hitlike record months and like
they're just fired up.
The community is just pumping.
Jeremy (47:34):
It's so, so, so cool it's a small things man dude.
If you're doing a mastermind ineurope or if I'm in america,
I'll come.
I'll come to your next one,like 100.
If you're doing external people,like, yeah I'd fucking love to
come, man, and you know what'sso interesting?
Like you're a young dude, likeI'm pretty fucking young too,
for the most part like I alwaysobserved the people that were in
quantum with Sam Ovens a fewyears ago.
(47:56):
So, like you know, five fuckingyears ago, when they were in
quantum, a lot of these guyswere making like 100k a month,
150k a month.
Now they're doing like twomillion a month, three million
months, selling businesses.
So, like this is the precursorfor like what you do in your
life.
It's, it's, it actually doesset you up so well.
But in relationships, what youknow, knowledge, like dude, I
(48:16):
remember watching a Will Brownmastermind three years ago and
Charlie Morgan was in the roomand he was teaching Charlie
Morgan how to build a sales team.
Like that was only three yearsago, dude, and Charlie was like
a young guy, he's, like you know, mid-20s, and he's teaching him
a little how to build a salesteam.
So fucking three years ago.
(48:37):
And now charlie's like doinglike 30 million a year or some
shit, and uh, it's justinteresting, right?
Success leaves clues.
Coachability I watched a daviddre video the other day which
was, like you know, the second,you stop becoming coachable.
You're fucking cooked.
You're over, bro the second.
You think that you're betterthan the game, you're better
(49:01):
than sales, you're better thanoffers.
You're just over, and it's avery humbling experience, man.
What I want to ask you I knowyou need to jump in a sec is
like so you've been coached by alot of great people.
What are some observationsyou've made from being coached
by people like Dan Martell andother guys in the space?
Darren (49:16):
It's all in how they they view themselves and then
everything that they do is justa reflection of that, and
usually it's nothing crazyeither.
They're they're masters of thebasics, they're masters of the
fundamentals.
And yeah, like Dan Martell, himand I are very close.
We live in the same town.
I just had a bunch of guys likehis business partner, creative
(49:37):
director, head of sales, head oflike the media um, all those
guys came over for barbecue atmy place last week and so like
it's super cool to have such aclose relationship and spend a
lot of time together in thatregard.
And also, like I met Ed Milet,spent a day with him in his
house in Florida, and other guyshave sold nine figures in this
(50:00):
space, and it really justbecomes like so glaringly
obvious.
It's like they're just mastersof the fundamentals.
Man, it's the basics ofpersonal development.
They choose, they of personaldevelopment, they choose, they
prioritize personal developmentfirst, and then everything they
do is just a reflection of that.
And like a few months ago, well,at the start of the year, I was
(50:21):
like I'm reading 52 books thisyear, a book a week because one
of my team members was like, hey, I'd never finished a book
before, but I'm gonna read 52this year, like and, and I'm
like, shit, dude, all right,I'll join you.
And so, anyways, I got like Iwas doing so well for like two,
two and a half months and then Iwas like two weeks ahead of my
reading.
(50:41):
I'm like, oh yeah, I fuckinggot this.
And then I had like a month ofjust like back-to-back travel.
I had like four trips like aweek or like sorry, like a week
at a time, like I'm home forlike a day and then like flying
out again and I just kind of gotlike a little overwhelmed and
burnt out and lost my sorry,chose to give up my momentum and
so I just like stopped readingfor like a month or two.
And then last I don't know aweek or two ago, I was like man,
(51:04):
like why, why did I do that?
And I noticed too, like theenergy in my community kind of
lowered a little bit.
My team kind of lowered a littlebit my content and I was like,
ah, and so since then I've justbeen absolutely like going hard
on the reading and journalingand like visualization and
vision boards and stuff likethat, and just like that passion
(51:27):
, that fire, it's, it's so backand so like that was just like a
little mini example that I'velearned recently of just like
it's gotta just be a standard,it's just daily non-negotiables,
man, and it's it's reading,it's learning, it's growing,
it's pushing yourself to justbecome better, smarter, every
single day, and just likedefault to action.
(51:49):
That's one thing that that Danlike preaches a lot is is your
default setting to just be takeaction.
Don't overthink it, don't tryto like say, okay, well, what if
I?
He's like dude, just justfucking do it to take action and
then iterate from there andthen try to make it better.
And so I think a lot of peoplecan get out of that
procrastination and just mentalmasturbation phase when they let
(52:13):
go of their vices.
They just prioritize personaldevelopment and reading and they
just take massive action 100%man Dude.
Jeremy (52:21):
That's so interesting.
I say my observation myself.
Right, I've recorded a podcastevery single week for five years
and coming up to the mastermindobviously was super fucking
busy.
So I actually I had I have abacklog always but I kind of
went like two and a half weeksof recording a podcast and then
I finished on monday and I waslike I for me, want to get back
(52:42):
recording, I want to get backlike hammering I think.
I think I'm doing like sevenpodcasts in the next, like 10
days, flying to london on mondaydoing five in london.
That'll be in marbella, doingfive in london.
And like my podcast is only aproponent of what I do.
It's not even like I don't evenfucking monetize it, man.
It's for my podcast, it's formy actual business and I just
enjoy meeting people.
Like it's 6 am bro on a fuckingtuesday, um, but I I do it
(53:03):
because it's like a highestvalue for me.
It's like how you do one thingis how you do everything and, as
you said, your clients andcustomers reflect that energy in
you and you don't need to be uphere at 100 times, but it's
good to be at like an 8 or a 7out of 10, just consistently.
Consistently at that, becausethen you never lose, right?
I had dinner with Jordan Platten.
He's been really big in theagency space.
(53:24):
He was in my house yesterdaybut we had dinner and he was
like, do you work like every day?
And I was like, yeah, I do, butI don't work at like a hundred
percent, a hundred miles an hour.
It's just like I work every dayon my business agency content,
everything just a bit Like Iwork on it and it always moves
(53:45):
forward.
And if I do that over 10 yearsI I'm physically not going to
lose like quite literally.
Like how can I lose if I justkeep doing the same thing and I
keep getting better and betterand iterating, and sorry, the
last thing I was going to say onthis was have you ever read the
lean startup by eric rose?
I haven't.
No, oh, dude, if you're on your, if you're on the reading
fucking hype, get that book,dude.
Buy that right now.
I'll buy it for you, right,it's like a seven dollar book.
(54:05):
It was the first book I everread.
So again, I have a background.
The first book I was given inuniversity was the lean startup,
and the guy came in and he waslike I don't give a fuck how
good your business idea is, Idon't give a fuck how good you
think your development is oryour marketing is.
The only thing that matters istesting it in the market, and
(54:26):
it's called, like, hypothesisthinking.
So I saw your video on this aswell.
But this is where, where itcame from, which is, everything
you do is a hypothesis untilit's in the market.
And the whole logic was thesilicon valley startups.
They were building for 20 orfor 10 years in their basement,
but the the best startups in the90s and 80s were the ones that
came true and literally went onthe floor.
So this means, if you have ahypothesis, go to the market and
(54:47):
test it.
Ask someone hey, do you want x,do you want a program on
setters and ads?
And then you want someone tosay, no, that is shit.
Like you literally want peopleto tell you that it's terrible.
And that's how I built my firsttwo startups man 20 and 2023,
which was dude.
I had a passport startup techstartup.
I went to the airport in dublinand I would stand at the
(55:08):
departure lounge and would belike would you, you use this app
?
And I literally did it for likesix months straight because it
was the only thing that matteredwas customer feedback.
You will love that book, dude,because you'll get so much ideas
as to like is there smallthings you want to add or
improve to your program?
And the whole logic is it's acustomer feedback loop
continuously and it's an amazingbook, amazing.
Darren (55:29):
I've heard great things about it, yeah I read it, you're
reading.
Jeremy (55:34):
It's one of those classics.
Darren (55:35):
I just haven't like gotten around to reading yet so
send me your address.
Jeremy (55:39):
I'll order a few as a gift for this podcast oh, I
appreciate that man, Iappreciate that big thank you
man.
This was such a sick podcast.
I I really really, really doappreciate it.
I'd love to do another one inperson.
Uh, I'm in America quite oftenI don't know how many times you
come down from Canada, but to befair, we'll get it done in
person.
Or if you're coming to Europe,I know you do a bit of trips
(56:00):
across Europe too, but in themeantime once I said big, big
thank you man.
Darren (56:05):
Yeah, of course, man.
This was absolutely awesome andlove the conversation today.
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