#306 Cardinal Mason - How to Scale an Info Business to $1M/Month - Kickoff Sessions

Episode Transcript
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CardinalMason (00:00):
How have you stayed relevant over the past
three, four years at this point?
Damn, I even think about howlong it's been until you said
it.
The majority of my money thatI'm gonna make over the next
probably 10 years will be frominfo, and I don't even think
it's gonna be from my info.
I don't think it's gonna befrom Carter Mason's copy of me.
I I think like I've justlearned so much over the last
couple of years of how thesebusinesses work, and I know that

(00:21):
they're not going out of style.
People are gonna continuebuying info, whether it's from
me or you or from somebody else,it's always gonna be a thing
that they will buy.
There's stuff that you thinkwould get saturated and start to
die out, like offers from likeback in 2020, 2021 that you'd
think there's no way that thiscould continue to make money
forever.
And the business is good, so itcontinues to make money.

Darren (00:40):
Where I want to start is in this fucking info product,
info space, it's very common forguys to come in, make a bit of
money, and then vanish forever.
How have you stayed relevantover the past three, four years
at this point?

Damn, I didn't even think about how long it's
been until you said it.
But yeah, bro, it's been aminute.
I started making TikToks likebeginning of 2022.
Um, and dude, I don't know.
I so first of all, I can'treally say I've stayed relevant.
I think like there's definitelybeen some personalities that
have um come in and justdominated, and that's kind of

(01:20):
how like the I guess the onlinelike influencer space goes.
But at the at at one point intime, I was kind of like an
influencer with a business.
And I think the reason whywe've had longevity is like now
I'm like a business guy who hasa small audience online that
kind of helps the business.
Um, but I think, and you mightyou might agree with this.
A lot of the guys who arecoming in and doing well with

(01:42):
info, um, they don't have thebusiness fundamentals down.
Like any business can last foryears, you know what I mean?
Like there's there's um there'sstuff that you'd think would
get saturated and start to dieout, like offers from like back
in 2020, 2021 that like you'dthink like, all right, there's
no way that this could continueto make money forever.
And the business is good, so itit continues to make money.

(02:05):
But um, I'm seeing a lot ofpeople these days who are like
audience first, business second,and I think that's where a lot
of these guys like start to failreally quickly.

Darren (02:15):
Yeah, man.
Let's double tap on thatbecause the perfect example of
an offer that's stuck around ifthe business owner is good is
fitness, right?
Fitness is like fucking eacheat chicken, go to the gym,
right?
It's not that complicated.
But people that are strongbusiness owners and not content
creators smash it.
They really, really do smashit.
So go deeper on that becausethat's one observation I didn't

(02:35):
make of you, which is like whenyou're like a TikTok kid, you're
obviously just a TikTok kid,but now you've done so much
other shit because you learnedthe mechanics of how to run an
info business at a high level.

Yeah, man.
Well, so I I didn't always, youknow, I mean I wasn't always
like a business guy.
Um, like at first, that's likelike I said, I was a content
creator.
Um, but I think I don't know.
I'm I'm an odd case, bro.
I think I'm a weird one tostudy because like I've I'm not
a natural entrepreneur and I'veI've never really been that.
Like, I don't know if you haveguys on here that were like

(03:07):
doing lemonade stands when theywere nine years old.
Like, I'm not that guy.
Um, like I learned kind oflate.
And I think what I found waslike back in 2023 when I
launched what I'm doing now, Irealized it's a it's a printer.
And I didn't I didn't ever wantanything to like dip down.
I think that this is somethingthat can do tens of millions of

(03:29):
dollars.
It already kind of has, youknow what I mean?
So I I kind of stumbled upon itand kind of got lucky.
And I realized like, okay, if Iwant this to last, you know, as
long as I need it to, then likeI need to develop real business
skills that can apply prettymuch anywhere.
And so that's kind of been likethe story of actually most of
this year.

(03:49):
I can't believe we're alreadyin September.
It's just flying by.
But like I was um, I'm I'musually a bit of a I like to go
out, usually a party.
But on New Year's of this, likegoing into this year, um, I uh
I got a hotel room in Torontoand I ordered a pizza and I
think I watched a movie, andthen I just for like from 11

(04:12):
o'clock in December to like twoo'clock in the morning in
January, I just like journaledlike all the stuff that I wanted
to do this year.
I like said a little prayer atmidnight, and I just like I I I
knew that this was gonna be likea business year for me.
Like I wanted to learn a ton, Ihad to learn a ton.
And um, I heard uh do youfollow uh uh Ruby on Twitter?

(04:37):
No, 22 or something like that.
Um he he had a tweet a longtime ago that stuck with me
where it's like what you do whenyou cross over from like one
year to another is like it's uhit's very spiritual, it's very
symbolic, you know what I mean?
So if you cross over, if you'redrunk as shit going into New
Year's Day, then I mean that'sgonna be basically like what the

(05:00):
year is for you.
But I wanted it to be, I wantit to be super focused, super
locked in.
So yeah, I was just like zen ashell in my hotel room,
scheming, plotting, and um, andso I mean, now we're here, we're
we've this is by far our bestyear.
I don't think um, yeah, I don'tthink I even expected it.
Like 2023 was awesome, 2024 wasgood, but this is like I it's

(05:24):
it's showing that I've beenworking my ass off, man.

Speaker 00 (05:27):
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Darren (05:40):
What was what was on your goals for the year?
And then what did you what haveyou achieved so far for this
year?

Well, obviously we had revenue goals and we've
hit that.
Um, but more so is just like uhI really wanted to figure out
paid ads.
Um, I really wanted to likehave that in my back pocket,
which like at this point I kindof do.
Um like we have a sick mediabuyer on Copy MBA who's who's
ripping, but through him I'velearned a lot.

(06:08):
Um, but like I wanted to sortof prove to myself that like I
could do this multiple times ifI had to.
Like again, one thing that infoguys always kind of stress
about is like, is this the onlybusiness I'll ever have that
makes this much money?
Um I wanted to make sure thatthat wasn't gonna be a thing.
So I I wanted to learn skillsthat would make me money,

(06:29):
whether I had you know 500k onTikTok or or no social media at
all.
So that was the that was themain sort of overarching thing,
and it was more so feeling too.
Like I just wanted to feel likeI was locked in because 2024 I
was not, bro.
I just I thought that's thewhole year.

Darren (06:44):
But dude, it's part of your evolution too, because like
you know, you're also stilljust super fucking young, right?
It's not like many people yourage are gonna be DGENs in other
aspects of life.
So just to give a bit ofcontext, man.
I'm 29.
I fucking finished universityat 23.
Like I literally finisheduniversity at 23, man, and I was
like in that in that mode.
And then I got into the spacein 2020, I was 24, but again, I

(07:08):
didn't get in the space doingthings, I was creating content,
creating podcasts, and then Ilearned the mechanics over the
years, like, oh, you don't dothis, you don't do that, right?
So there can be there can bethose that slippage, providing
you have this year of being likesuper locked in, right?
And making those quantum leaps.
You made a very good pointabout these info cowboys feeling

(07:30):
it's like scarcity, right?
They have complete scarcitybecause they think, oh fuck, I
can't repeat this.
Maybe they had something goviral on TikTok, maybe they just
did something to get attention,to gain our attention.
Why do you think they have thatscarcity mindset?

I mean, you see it in real time, and like it's a
learned thing, right?
Where you like a lot of theseinfo guys, and I've been through
this too, where you have likeslow seasons because like you
can't get anything to get anyviews on any social media, you
know what I mean?
Like you're making contenttrying to make money, and that's
when it that's when it startsto like do like a downward
spiral.
And I'm seeing guys, I think Itweeted this as well.

(08:04):
I'm seeing guys who I've heardrumors are not exactly killing
it right now.
And um, dude, I you can justtell they're uh like they're
just every video they post islike they're trying to
desperately fill their calendar.
And so you go through it.
Like you for at first youlaunch and you think, like, man,
this is awesome.
I'm gonna make this much moneyforever.

(08:26):
And then you see your firstlittle slowdown, and you're
like, oh shit, like it's over,like we're done.
And then it comes back, andthen it's oh, we're back, I'm
rich again, everything's great,and then it's slow again.
You need to go through likeprobably five or six of those
cycles before you learn thatlike it's not permanent.
You get like, you know what Imean?

Darren (08:46):
Bro, it's it, but it's a skill though, right?
Like, if you're going throughthose down periods and full
transparency, I've kind of feltthat too at times whereby you do
a push, you do a launch, likewe we're running an event next
week.
We run the event, afterwards,then there's like you know what
it's like?
A great analogy, it's like thetide.
The tide comes in, it's fuckinggreat, the tide goes out, but
knowing that the tide will comeback in should give you peace,

(09:10):
but it actually gives otherpeople way more stress and
anxiety.

Yeah.
I mean, that's you're a well,you said you're 29.
29.
All right, so you're like amature entrepreneur, you kind of
get it.
Um, but like a lot of theseyoung guys, like if you're if
you're 20 years old, you startmaking 200 grand a month with
whatever you're working on, youknow, I mean, dropshipping
course.
And you know, just the firstthing came to mind.

(09:33):
And you're like, all right,this is like this is oh, I'm
gonna make 200k a month for therest of my life, and I don't
need to invest it, I don't needto do anything different.
I'm gonna keep spending youknow, I'm gonna buy two Lambos
um in two of my favorite colors,depending on what you know, day
I feel I want I want to drawthe black one today, you know
what I mean?
And then like you go throughthis, and then your first little

(09:54):
dip, and you're like, oh shit,like it's over.
And some guys never recovertoo.
There are guys that I think weboth know where they've they've
gone through that exact samething and they never quite
figure out like how to get back.
Um and like, yeah, I don'tknow.
So again, this whole year hasbeen sort of like trying to
bulletproof that for myselfbecause like dude, of course

(10:15):
I've I've had scary slowdownswhere I'm like, damn, like this
is the last year I'll ever makemoney.
But I feel like at this point,um, like I I'm working on other
stuff where it has nothing to dowith my face, I'm not in it.
It's not even make money onlinestuff, you know what I mean?
Like, I'm I want to get out ofthat at some point too.
Because like I'm getting upthere too, man.
I'm I'm 26.

(10:36):
And like when I started doingthis, I was 21 and 22, and it
was cool, and I just I same sortof thing.
I wanted to be a DJ and justwant to fuck around.
But at this point now, like I'mdude, I'm on Zillow every night
looking at cribs in Boca.
Um if if you've never been,it's like north of Miami, it's
like where all the the suburbsare, and I'm just like I'm

(10:57):
thinking like, okay, in the nexttwo years, I'm gonna have one
of these, and like I'll probablybe married by then.
And then that girl's probablygonna have a baby in it, you
know what I mean?
Like, I I wanna I wanna get tothat part where I'm like I'm
secure and I I don't want tohave to worry about like, did my
TikTok do well?
Am I gonna make you know 100grand this well?

(11:18):
I hate that.
That was the worst part of likeit's at as a 30-year-old, I
can't do that at 30 bro.

Darren (11:25):
Dude, do you ever see that meme?
And it's like um it's like takeit's like creating Instagram
reels or TikTok videos as a kidto impress adults to buy my
adult program.
It's so funny, dude.
It's like a guy getting ready,like he's like he's setting up
his little ring lights, and he'slike getting ready to dance,
and it's so that other men buyhis program, and it just it just

(11:48):
kind of epitomizes how like youyou kind of do have to evolve
with it.
And I I think you made a greatobservation.
Now, I'm not buying fuckinghouses in Boca, but the money
that I made from like info andagency, which we still have to
this day, I've been reinvestingthat.
So actually, full transparency,I was reinvesting that into
like the market and all thiskind of shit, and I was like,
fuck that.
And then I thought, okay, Iwant a bigger play, and that's

(12:10):
when we started moving now intosoftware, and I was like, okay,
I'm gonna put aside this cash,I'm gonna just fucking think
it's a sunk cost because I wantto do something as well that's
gonna give me way moreasymmetrical outsized returns.
And I think what's interestingis obviously you've bought nice
stuff, and I've bought nicestuff too over the years, but
it's not like you've burned allof your cash on the nice things

(12:33):
so that you can't do anythingelse.
I think that's a big part ofthe scarcity stuff, too, right?
Is you've spent the money thatyou've just fucking made without
even paying IRS tax on it, andnow you have to scramble to fix
everything backwards.
Yeah, man.

It's like I I don't know about you, I've
gotten way less materialisticover the last like year, not
even a year, bro.
Probably like eight months.
Um and like now, like the thingthat excites me is just like
building a war chest, you knowwhat I mean?
Like, I by the time I'm let'sjust say 30, like I want to be
like truly untouchable, you knowwhat I mean?

(13:07):
Like 25 plus mil, where I'm notdone working, but I pretty much
have everything I want, and I'mnever gonna be in a position
where it's like, oh shit, likewe gotta start selling stuff,
you know.
You need you need it, yeah.
Exactly, exactly.
I want choices here.

Darren (13:23):
Let's double tap on like the building of the info
because I think the paid adstuff is something that's wildly
misunderstood by the contentcreator bros.
And I you know you mentionedyou're listening to my
podcaster, Ryan Clogg.
So I met Ryan in London, and hekind of like broke my whole
brain with this stuff where hewas like, I don't have a face of
the brand, I don't really know,I don't even know the customers

(13:45):
directly through social media.
We just run paid ads and wefigure that out.
How what was that shift for youlike mentally?
And I saw your tweets on this,which is really good when once
you get over the mental block ofads, and then how did you scale
it?
How did you build info?
And now you've got up to over amillion a month.
How do you how do you do that,right?
Because it's all it's alleconomics.

It's funny you mentioned Ryan because I started
watching him probably aroundMay, which was like maybe two or
three months in like us feelinglike okay, we got a hold of
ads, but he was saying a lot ofstuff that made it easier for
like the team not to scale.
So, like Ryan actually was ahuge help for that.
Um so everyone, everyone who'sgoing from organic to paid will

(14:28):
always start with this beliefthat paid ads won't work for me
because they probably tried itbefore.
Like, okay, so here's how itgoes You have an organic offer,
you're making 300k a month, youget approached by a growth
operator, someone with an agencywho's gonna try and take Rev
share, and they're gonna do abunch of stuff for you.
And at one point, they're gonnasay, like, let's just try ads,

(14:48):
you know.
I mean, like, we're gonna do acall funnel or webinar or
something like that.
We're gonna run ads to it, andthey'll spend maybe $2,000, and
then they'll decide okay, thisdoesn't work for me because they
won't get any leads or theleads that they get won't be
quality.
Um, and I used to be that guytoo.
We tried ads, we tried thislow-ticket funnel like last

(15:09):
summer, and it just kind of shitthe bed.
Like it was never profitable,it didn't do what we wanted it
to do, and I was like, okay,well, ads just won't work for
me.
Like, this isn't just the typeof offer, or yeah, this isn't
the type of offer that'llbenefit from paid ads.
And then I realized that wasjust dumb, and I started looking
at all the other people wholike kind of transitioned as
well.
Um, do you know Brooke Hitting?

Darren (15:29):
Yeah, man.
I'm I'm good friends withBrooke.
I was with him in I was withhim in January.
This is funny because these arelike the real OGs.
And dude, like I've seenBrooke's fucking numbers.
Like, he's literally done likethree or four million on the
front end a month.

No, he's he's real OG.
Like him and I we started atthe same time.
Uh well, I think he was acouple months behind me.
It was I remember seeing hisstuff, and he was he was talking
with his partner at the time,David, about how they were doing
300k a month, and I was like,What?

Darren (15:58):
And then same, bro.
Dude, we we both bear in mindwe both left our job at the same
time.
He left a lawyer job, I left atech job.
I was like doing some gayengineering thing, and uh at the
same like I would literally sayit was within four months of
each other.
We both left our job same time.

Yeah, oh that's crazy.
Yeah, and he's down, he lives,uh lives, but he's from down the
street from it.

Darren (16:21):
And he's like, bro, this is the thing, right?
He's married.
I know this is such a tightscythe angle, but he's married,
he has a baby.
I met him and his wife likewhen she like one month out from
her having the child in likeJanuary.
So, like, we're all pushing on,bro, you know, so you gotta get
this shit together a small bit.
So I got sidetracked there.

So I I remember so Brooke was super active on on
Twitter and Instagram.
He was slinging thishigh-ticket e-commerce thing.
And then I like he stoppedposting and I stopped hearing
from him.
He stopped tweeting.
I was like, what happened toBrooke?
And then I heard from somebodyelse that he's like all paid now
and he's doing like multiplemillions a month.
And I was like, oh shit, thatwas this like he was in the same

(16:59):
position as me not too longago.
And then I would make all theseexcuses as for why it works for
him and not for me.
I was like, well, you know,like his is higher ticket than
mine, and like, you know, it itinherently attracts like a more
qualified audience compared tomy stuff, and like, dude, all my
customers are you know 18 to22, like we don't want to target
them on Facebook, they don'thave money, whatever.
All these dumb reasons, andthen like something clicked,

(17:24):
bro, like beginning of March ofthis year, and we just had a
good batch of ads that we filmedthat like just did what we
needed it to do, and it wasproducing calls for us, and we
were like, oh wait, and werealized that not only was the
so we had traffic coming in, wewere getting cheap calls, it was
like 120 bucks a call orsomething like that.

(17:45):
I think some days it was downto like 90 bucks a call, which
is really good.
And then we would mark all ofthese calls on our calendar for
the closers.
If it was a it was an ads call,it would be red, just so we
knew.
And um, we started to realizethat like all the red calls were
actually better quality andthey were like they were higher
intent than the people that werecoming from my organic.

(18:07):
I was like, what?
So let's let's double down onthis.
And I heard the same thingcoming from uh another uh big
offer owner who you definitelyknow who he is, but I won't name
names because I don't thinkanyone knows the numbers.
But at the time he jumped fromlike 500k a month because he was
mostly organic to a mil a monthin one single month.
And I was like, oh shit.
And then I talked to one of hisclosers, his closers said the

(18:29):
same thing, sort of thing whereit's like, yeah, like the
deletes coming from paid are waybetter, like they're just more
qualified.
Because like on ads, like youcan talk to exactly who you
want, you know.
I mean, like on TikTok, it'speople that are first of all on
TikTok, they they they kind oflook like me and they resonate
with lysate or whatever, butlike, and those are just people

(18:49):
that naturally like want toinvest in whatever I'm doing.
But on ads, I can say, like, ifyou have a job, if you're
employed, you're American, youspeak English, like I can get
exactly who I want.
If you make 60k a year and youwant to do something different,
like I can make those directcall-outs and like meta notices
that and it started feeding usall these people who fit our

(19:11):
exact criteria.
And then um scaling after thatwas kind of easy, bro.
Because like I basically now,now I kind of have a business
similar to Ryan's.
Obviously, like my face isstill a part of it, but I don't
use Instagram or YouTube really,um, which used to be my biggest
traffic channels.
That used to be like how Iwould film my calendar, but I

(19:32):
don't use that to do thatanymore.
It's all middle of the funnel.
So, like, the only reason Ipost on Instagram and YouTube is
so that people will see the ad,go to the profile or whatever,
learn a little bit more, butlike it's after they've already
been introduced to me.
Or if they've already booked acall and they need something to
watch in the meantime, likethat's why I have it.
You know, I mean, it's notreally to produce customers

(19:53):
anymore.
And then all it took for us togo from you know half a mil a
month to a mil last month wasjust like putting our nuts on
the line and just droppinghundreds of thousands of dollars
of spend into Facebook ads.
And it was honestly, it's justmath, man.

Darren (20:07):
Yeah, it's bromat.
It's literally fucking infoproduct bromat.
Um, fuck, I have so manyquestions this man, but the
biggest thing that I've seenover the past couple of months,
because like we're doing morepaid now as well, right?
Now, not not a couple hundredthousand yet a month, but we're
trying to move it up.
I just had a podcast withJeremy Haynes.
If you wanna if you want to seesomeone get roasted in real
time, Jeremy literally justripped my ass open for like 45

(20:28):
minutes of the podcast.
One of my team was like, Do youwant to include this?
And I was like, Oh fuck it,just leave it all in.

But it's a big thing because that's everybody.
I've got I've been on thebusiness end of a Jeremy Haynes
rant multiple times.
Shit sucks.
It's awful.

Darren (20:41):
Uh I it's you if you see my face in it, I'm like, I'm
sitting in the seat and I'm likered, bro.
It was like it was bad, but youknow, again, he's like a
fucking G.
And one thing that I've reallyrecognized is all of these
organic guys, it's like youactually are early to this in
terms of that moving, thatshift, because it seems like to
me that organic is becoming moreof like a hermosy style where

(21:03):
it's like you never ever everask for anything, bro.
Just be in the corner, just putout your content, don't ask for
fucking thing, and then you'reusing paid then to actually do
the ask.
Because again, right, ifsomeone sees your let's say
Instagram reel and then they'veclicked on your page and they're
within 180 days, then you canhit them with a retargeting ad.
But organic behavior haschanged as well.

(21:26):
There's like this weird thing,right?
I don't I don't know what'syour observation on that.

Yeah, I I think it's I I hate I hate saying this
word, but I I believe it'sgetting far more saturated, bro.
I I I like to say thatnothing's saturated, and I think
like it's true for some people,like for good entrepreneurs,
nothing's ever saturated.
Like, um, pretty much any goodentrepreneur, like if if we
consider dropshipping saturatedor supplements, more
specifically, saturated, someguy like Rob the Bank that we

(21:53):
both know can come in and juststart a supplement brand and
destroy everybody.
You know what I mean?
So it doesn't mean it's likesaturated and it can't be done,
but there's just so much morenoise, bro.
And I talked about this with uhmy buddy, so you know, Ben, and
then my marketer and our friendSanjay.
Um, we were talking about howback in 2023 or 2022, when I

(22:16):
started, there were that youdidn't have a ton of people that
were selling stuff like thisonline.
That was one of the reasons whylike I did well on TikTok right
away, was because like thereweren't that many people who
were like teaching money skills.
They had you were they werelearning e-commerce and they
were learning uh day tradingcrypto.
That was kind of pretty muchit.
Like nobody else is reallyselling info on anything else,

(22:38):
and so I was the first guy tocome along to like not talk
about any of those things andtalk about services instead.
And we had a low-ticket Discordthat we ran up to like over
100k a month just off TikTok,and it was like a $15 a month
thing, you know what I mean?
And so, like back then, thatwas when it was really easy, and
then again in in 2023 when wesort of like relaunched Copy

(22:58):
MBA, um, like we got to 600 plusa month, like just doing a
weekly webinar all from TikTok,low ticket as well, and then
upselling those people into a a4K coaching thing.
That was it, like that doesn'twork anymore.
Like, you there's so so andwhat I was saying was like all

(23:19):
those people that were doingcourse stuff back in 2022 and
2023, they taught all the peoplewho are now doing courses
today.
So it's like we we basicallyhad kids, we multiplied, and now
if there were 10 of us then,there's like 500 of us now, and
then in two years from now, likewhen all the people who are

(23:39):
selling courses today are abunch of students, all those
people are gonna go on andcreate their own thing too, and
then it's just you know what Imean?
Like there's just thousands ofpeople who are selling stuff
every single day, and you'rejust it's hard to keep up with
it as a consumer.

Darren (23:52):
Uh, I even noticed that ourselves, man, and you probably
noticed too, when your studentswill actually end up do selling
what you do, right?
They'll talk like you, they'llresemble you because your
customers are a reflection ofyou, no matter what.
But you will see like they'llroad copy something because they
just learned copywriting fromyou and they learned how to
deliver from you.
So you're like, oh, that'sliterally how I do something,

(24:13):
which is fair, right?
They've paid, they've learned,they're implementing what you've
taught them, but it's likeeveryone becomes a role
character of you in many ways,so something to be like
cognizant of.
I guess what one thing that'sunique about your scenario
though is that when you'retargeting a little bit of a
younger demographic, what'sgenerally like the price range
of your programs?

(24:34):
And then how does that computeinto the ads, right?
Because it's not like superhigh ticket whereby you can have
a shit ton of margin of errorand you can kind of be a dumbass
and still become profitable.

Speaker 00 (24:44):
Are you an agency owner, coach, or consultant
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At VOX, we help business ownersscale their online business
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We help them specifically builda high-ticket offer, create
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If you want to see more aboutexactly how we do this, hit the
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(25:06):
smart entrepreneurs are buildinga business in 2025.

Yeah, so we don't target that age demo anymore at
all.
Like we're they're not, they'resorry, I shouldn't say every,
but they're rarely good clients,they're really good students.
Like a lot of times they juststraight up don't do the work um
and they don't have money.
So, and also like it's a weirdcusp where it's like if you're

(25:30):
21, you might have money, but ifyou're 19, you won't.
So it's like if we if we startat 21, then like if if we mess
up the age targeting a littlebit, then we just like, I don't
know.
It's better like it's a weirddemo, it's not good.
So we like 25 to 35.
We like people that actually dohave degrees, even though you
don't need it.
We we want to work with peoplethat have some sort of

(25:52):
bachelor's just because it makesit easier for us.
Like they're they already knowhow to learn, and also they've
invested in education before,obviously.
And people that have likedecent jobs, like people that
have worked with businessesbefore.
Like our one of our stars rightnow, she's ex-Salesforce and
she makes like 45 grand a monthdoing copywriting, like AI
copywriting.
She's ripping.
And it's partly because likeshe's she's already she already

(26:13):
knows the fundamentals of likewhat needs to be done.
Like, she understands sales,she understands marketing.
It's easy for her.
Same with this other guy, OwenSantos, who's like just a stud,
bro, in everything he does.
He used to be like um aninsurance uh well, no, sorry, he
was managing a team ofdoor-to-door solar guys, and
then the season ended, and thenhe was waiting on a license to

(26:35):
start selling something else.
It was like annuities orsomething like that.
And he's like, he's like a truelike 50-60k a month sales guy,
and he was bored and didn't wantthe money to stop, so he joined
copy MBA, only did it for fourmonths, and then in that four
months, made like 95 grand orsomething like that.
So, like, we want people whoare going to be like top

(26:58):
performers in everything theydo.
We don't want some like somekid who's like in high school or
something like that, wants tomake their their first ten
dollars online.
Like, we don't want that.
Like, we we want to like we wehave a reputation, you know what
I mean?
Like, we want to get peopleresults, we want to make people
real money, that's what makes uslook good.
And um, my dad has a saying, hesays, like, it's not his, but

(27:19):
he said it to me.
Uh, how you do anything is howyou do everything.
And if we take people who arelike kind of losers and they've
been poor their whole lives andthey don't have you know five
dollars to their name right now,they're probably not gonna do
well with copywriting.
Like, it's not gonna changethat quickly.
Like, they have more work to dooutside of whatever they're
working on.
We want people who have alreadydominated pretty much in
everything they've done so theycan come and do our thing and

(27:43):
implement quickly and make ashit ton of money, and then we
can use them as a case study,and then we our pyramid scheme
continues, yeah.

Darren (27:48):
Yeah, because like those guys could technically do
fucking anything, right?
It's just they're just theyjust ended up doing copywriting.
I've noticed that too, man.
100%.
It's like, and and actually,those are the guys that will be
around forever, right?
Back to your point about theinfo guys not thinking we'll do
everybody everybody to makemoney again.
It's the same equivalent.
If someone is someone who'ssuper talented, they'll be able
to do anything, fuckinganything, put anything in front

(28:08):
of them.
So it's nearly the opposite.
Now, tell me about how youactually convert these people.
So you're running a call funnelfor everything.
Did are you running the salesteam yourself, or did you get
like a sales manager orsomething?

No, we got a sales manager.

Darren (28:19):
Um, do you know Philip?

Philip Carks.
He's uh he's actually okay, sokind of crazy story with him.
Again, one of those eightplayers that just like spawned
out of nowhere.
Um, he was a he was a kid incollege, he joined um one of my
buddies' sales trainingprograms, started as a setter,
was a setter for him, and thenwe poached him.
He was a setter for me, workedhis way up, became top closer,

(28:43):
dominated that, and then uhstarted just managing dialers.
So at the beginning of 2024, wedidn't have a dialer team.
We were just like everyeverything was a self book.
And then um, so he came on andstarted managing dialers and
started producing like an extracouple hundred grand a month
just from like having people hitup old leads and stuff like
that, which we never had before.
So that was crazy.

Darren (29:03):
And then um how the fuck were you doing that?
Sorry, is is that just whenthey book or just previous years
taking their phone number fromClickFunnels or something?

Well, yeah, people might opt in or they
might apply and not book orsomething like that.
And there's just like all thesepeople in our CRM, you have
like tens of thousands ofcontacts that haven't done
anything.
And so like he hired a coupleof dialers to just go through
and just like just hammer thembasically and just and get get
them to convert.
Um, and so that that made ahuge difference.

(29:33):
And then he started managingclosures as well, and then
beginning of this year hestopped taking calls.
So now, yeah, so he's like afull-on killer.
Like I sometimes people arelike, if you're gonna have a
business of you know this size,like we're gonna do probably
probably over eight figures thisyear, and like you'd think that
like not over eight figures, wewould do eight eight figures,

(29:54):
uh, but like you'd think thatyou need some sort of like
corporate, you know, sales.
Sales manager guy who like wentto Harvard and like you know
he's ex Facebook or somethinglike that to manage a team like
that.
And like we just have like a 2021-year-old savage who has like
five-figure testosteronerunning through his bloodstream.
I think we got like 12 or 14guys now.

(30:18):
Um, so yeah, so we got him, wehave the media buyer, uh, we
have I think nine people on ourcoaching team, like the product
team, and then like yeah, like12, 12 sales guys.
And right, so right now we'redoing the call funnel, uh, which
gets the majority of spend.
And then we have a webinar too.
We do bi-weekly webinar.

Darren (30:37):
Fuck man, so how many calls do you book in like a day?
Like 35 to 45?
Roughly like on the calendar.
All from odds.

Yeah, uh, that's on the calendar.
So we'll book more than that.
We cancel a bunch of them andpeople reschedule or whatever,
but on the calendar every singleday.
Yeah, minimum 30.

Darren (30:54):
Jesus Christ, dude.
Okay, so and that that's justinto a VSL funnel.
So there's no setting.

Well, the setters are in there too.
Like we got so the way it worksis we don't have an opt-in on
it.
Uncle Jeremy has has said thatwe we don't do opt-ins.
People who have money and andare but they protect their time,
they don't like opt-ins, theydon't want to fill out
information just to watch a VSL.
So um, we have hundreds ofpeople a day who will watch it

(31:23):
and apply, and they might selectuh like so on the type form,
there's options where it's likeif it's zero to 500, they can't
invest, uh 500 to 2k, they coulddo it, but it might be a split,
and then two to four K they cando it, and then four to eight
K, they want more, more helpthan like what we just offer
from the inner circle.
Um, and so anybody who doesn'tbook directly on the calendar,

(31:43):
which is a lot of people in thezero to 500 and then 5 to 2k,
uh, those people get dialed.
And a lot of times, like thosepeople they actually do have
money, they just don't want totell us about it.
And so what dial is that we'llget people that look unqualified
on the type form, but theyactually are.
Or sometimes people will likeactually say they are qualified,
but they just won't get aroundto booking, and then um we uh so

(32:07):
we'll just nudge them onto thecalendar, and then they they get
super active after a webinar.
So we'll do a webinar, we'llget like 5,000 people to
register.
We got like 2400 people to showup.
Not everybody converts,obviously, not everyone books
calls.
So after that, um, they'll runthrough the list of everybody
who showed up but didn't book,everybody who knows showed,

(32:29):
everybody who registered.
So, like they yeah, thosedialers are working all the
time.
Like we always need dialers.
We have I think, yeah, justjust in dialers, my I think it's
eight to ten or something likethat.
I have no idea.
Um, but those guys are busy.
Those guys are busy.

Darren (32:44):
Man, this is fucking crazy.
So when you're running thewebinar funnels, are you going
straight to a buy button orstraight to a call funnel?
Call funnel.
So they book off the webinar,and then you're you're filling
that up for like three or fourdays afterwards.

Yeah, brand.
So we'll do it on Tuesdaynight, Wednesday, Thursday,
Friday completely packed out.
Sometimes we'll get sometrickling on Saturday.
But in those three days, likewe have no calendar space.
And then the closers for howmany closers?
Three closers.
No, we have five, so three mainones, two who are like more

(33:17):
like junior closers, likethey're former dialers, so
they're they're getting better,uh, but not getting like tier
one calls yet.
And then we have one guy whowill come in just for um Webby
calls.

Darren (33:28):
Bro, this is crazy, like this is a huge operation, man.

Honestly, dude, it's it's crazy to think about
because it doesn't feel likethat.
Like I actually just sent likea big because today's the first,
right?
Yeah, so last night was August31st, and like that was uh again
our first seven-figure month,and I sent this big long message
to our our team, the salesteam.
And like we all kind of agreedthat like it doesn't feel that
crazy, you know what I mean?
Like we've had big weeksbefore, we've had big days where

(33:54):
it's like we're kind of used toit, and it doesn't seem like we
did anything different.
Like the only thing I diddifferently was like I just
filmed a shit ton of ads, likeway more ads than normal, and we
spent a lot more.
And um, everyone's just likelocked the fuck in.
But it didn't seem like it's ahuge deal, you know what I mean?
I feel like that's why, and Ithink that's what keeps us going

(34:15):
too.
It's like we don't feel superaccomplished, we don't feel like
we just did this crazy thing.
Feels like a especiallycompared to like guys like
Brooke or guys like Ryan, whereit's like this is this would be
a terrible month for them.
If they only did a mill, likethey would jump off a bridge,
like they wouldn't beprofitable.

Darren (34:32):
Well, it's funny because that's exactly what happened,
right?
And he went from like four anda half to like 1.7 or something
and thought they're gonna losetheir mind.
I think the biggest thing herethough is that it's like a dial
with the ads, you can just dialit up, but it but it's what's
really impressive is the factthat you have the sales team on
the back, right?
Like you have the you have theinfrastructure, sorry, to be
able to scale.
Because a lot of guys will justhave like one, maybe two

(34:54):
closers, they'll get packed up,they actually cap their they cap
their revenue potential.

100%, yeah.
And it's it's even more so likenot even just like calls that
can be taken, like you're havingmore closers makes everything
easier.
Where it's like you can do livetransfers uh from dialers, or
if if other closers need callstaken, but also like when you're
running a call funnel, whathappens is a qualified lead will
get to the end of theapplication and they can book.

(35:22):
And then if they don't seeevery single time slot open that
they could be able to book,like your cost per call will go
up.
So like we have closers on thecalendar who like like this one
guy who's like kind of onlythere sometimes, I think he's on
another off or something likethat.
His thing is open all the time,so that if someone if we have

(35:42):
you know five people that allwant to have a call at 1 p.m.
or something like that, theyhave the option to do that.
Um, because like sometimes likethat's the only time they have
available, like that's theirlunch, and they could, you know,
end up paying $5,000.
But yeah, if they if they don'tsee the time slot that's that
they want, they just won't doit, and that's a lost lead.
So, like, yeah, more closuresthe better.
Like, and we also had tooverhire where it was like kind

(36:05):
of uncomfortable and didn'treally make sense, where it was
like, all right, these some ofthese guys aren't even getting
calls, you know.
I mean, they're gonna make fourgrand this month, like it's
kind of a waste of their time,but you need to do that so you
can scale into it.

Darren (36:15):
That's crazy, man.
What advice do you have formanaging that team, right?
Because I guess you didn't havethree or four closures before,
you didn't have a shit ton ofdialers.
So, how did you kind of go toramping, training, deploying,
replacing everything?

It happened over time, and thankfully, bro, we
haven't had to replace, we'venever had a sales guy quit.
Well, that's not true.
We've had one main guy quitbecause he had a banger
opportunity to go somewhereelse.
But like, dude, we don't havepeople quit on us.
Like, we don't really have toreplace people.
Like, we we have a sickculture, like all the boys are

(36:50):
our friends.
Like, they like, dude, we haveand these dialers too, bro.
Like, they will they will getup at eight in the morning,
they'll start dialing at like 830.
They might go for a walk orsomething like that, start
dialing at 8 30, and they'll gountil like 1 30 in the morning,
bro.
Like they'll hit Bali opt-ins,you know.
I mean, people in Australiathat are just getting up or
something like that.

(37:10):
Um, and like they'll just be onDiscord, like in a little
huddle or chat or whatever it'scalled, and they'll just be with
each other.
Like all eight of the guys willjust be talking shit in between
dials and stuff like that, justhanging out.
It's hilarious.
So I think having a having agood culture is is important
because like that's why theseguys work so hard because they
they love this job, they see itas a job, they get to work with

(37:32):
the boys, you know what I mean.
I used to work, I used to havethis dope ass job, summer 2016.
I was working at McDonald's,bro.
And um, we were like a coupleof my boys that would work there
back in the kitchen and likesome some baddies that were
working the window or somethinglike that.
And it was just like a sick, asick job.
It was cool, and that's kind ofwhat this is for them.
And like, even if they don'tmake like a ton of money, like

(37:53):
all these guys, if they wantedto, they could either do what I
teach or they could go be acloser somewhere else and they
would make more money.
Um, but they don't seem to wantto do that, so dude, 100%.

Darren (38:04):
100%, dude.
We uh I we moved back to anoffice, so we got an office in
Bali.
Um, we had like a dispersedteam, so they were in Europe,
Asia, America, Brazil, and guyswere coming for our events.
Culture is so fucking good,everyone, bro, like bro, is like
proper, it's just proper, likeit's like a boys' culture, even

(38:24):
though we have a we have a shitton of women too.
Um and I they were coming backhere and I was like, fuck this,
let's go like big, let's get asick office, all glass,
overlooking like the city, sobeautiful, right by the beach,
and everyone loves it.
Now, if you heard of an office,everyone's like, oh my fucking
god, I'm never gonna work there,but they want to be there, and
now it's not like an officeoffice, like it is super like

(38:46):
aesthetic, and we have like arestaurant, bro, we've got
everything in there, but it'ssick because these guys choose
to be there.
And last night the biggestdebate was who's gonna take the
key home because someone isgonna work later than the other
person, the other person's gonnacome back earlier than the
other person.
So I think when you create thatenvironment and like you're
just a cool dude, right?
You're like a chill guy, likeyou're like pretty low stress,

(39:09):
people want to be around thatenergy.
So the person that you are isthe reason why you have a bunch
of other fucking cool people inthe company.
I appreciate that, bro.

And dude, isn't it so sick?
Isn't it so cool?
Because, like, isn't that whatwe chase as entrepreneurs?
Like, we want to we do thisbecause we want everything to be
custom.
I want everything in my life tobe to my spec, right?
Just like a rule of choice.
You want to choose every singleoption, and a big part of that
outside of your social life andwhere you live, and like even

(39:36):
the apartment you have in whichcity you want to live in, is
like the people you're aroundwhen you're working.
Because I spend a lot of timeworking, I enjoy what I do, and
so I'm on as as you know, asmuch as possible.
And like the people that I getto spend time with like, dude,
I'll just randomly FaceTime myclosers when I know they have a
no-show or something like that.
I'll just I'll just FaceTimeand just we'll talk shit for a
little bit.
Like, it's fun, bro.

(39:57):
And like that's the thing thatI appreciate the most about
entrepreneurship, and soundslike you probably would agree,
is like you get to pick who youwork with.
I've never had a shitty or Ihaven't had a shitty coworker in
years because I choose mycoworkers, I get I hire them, I
pay them, you know what I mean?
So it makes it really fun tolike have just a culture of
people that are all working onthe same sort of thing.

Darren (40:20):
It's it's leadership, right?
And I think I don't know whereI heard this, but it's like
someone will appreciate just arandom fucking FaceTime on a
Saturday evening, like a closeror setter who's like struggling
on their like you know, weekendtime, weekends of fucking scam,
but whatever, they they willappreciate that more than
anything else.
Then more than the money, andthis is the funny part is that
like they don't just get moneyfrom you, which you pointed out

(40:41):
earlier, they get the lessons,the inside, the fucking clarity,
the friendships.
There's so much other shit thatthey get that you would never
get elsewhere.
This is the big advantage, andI think uh it's actually funny
because we went through thiskind of spell where we got more
calls book from Colt, andconversion went down for sure,

(41:02):
the close rate went down 100%.
And I was writing to a fewcommunities that I'm in and all
this kind of stuff, and thebiggest feedback was drop the
guys and replace them, or payfor training, and it never even
came into my mind to drop thembecause they were all super
fucking committed guys.
I was like, who's the salestrainer that I can pay?
Who can I do one-to-onecoaching with?

(41:23):
Who can come in and sit trainour team?
And that made a hugeimprovement to everything
because like it's way easier todevelop better talent than it is
to fucking find new people like24-7.
And I think people alsoappreciate that, right?

Dude, yes, yes.
Like, listen, it I'm notsupposed to be as as close to my
guys as I am, like, it'sagainst managerial practices.
Like, you're supposed to kindof like leave some distance.
So, if you do have to firesomebody, you don't feel bad
about it.
Um, so I mean, there'sdefinitely guys that I've kept
on way too long that should havebeen fired.
Like the first, the firstclother I ever hired, I I like

(41:58):
the guy, he's a good person, butbro, like, so I brought him on,
and then like he was good forlike a year, and then after
that, he just got way too comfy.
And this guy was like one myfirst hire, like, this is the
first guy I ever brought on forthis business.
And I was like, dude, I can'tlet him go.
And so I yeah, dude, I hadendless conversations with him,

(42:18):
and I was like, man, like you'vegot to pick it up.
Like, you're just not, you'rebeing lazy, like you're not
you're not following up withpeople, like you're just letting
people off if they're not a laydown, you know what I mean?
Like, not even handlinginjections.
And um when I finally had to tofire this kid, like it really
hurt, bro.
Like it really sucked.
And like, this is a kid that,like, dude, I've given him crazy

(42:40):
numbers and bonuses.
Like, dude, I bought him arole, I bought him his first
Rolex, and it was like, man, Ican't believe that like the shit
didn't work.
So, like, I don't know.
Like, you kind of have toaccept that sometimes, but like
that's why I have a salesmanager, is because I I'm like
the everyone always thinks thatit's like the big boss is like
the scary one, and like themanager sort of like the he's

(43:02):
for the people, but like it'skind of the opposite because
like most of the sales guys arelike kind of afraid of Philip
because he's way meaner, andlike when I hop on a call, like
it's like okay, we're we'rechilling, like none of us are
gonna get fired today.
Because like Philip's the onethat has to deliver the bad news
when somebody gets fired,Philip's the one that has to
like difficult these guys andlike train them and tell them
when they're doing somethingwrong.
And like I just get to pull upand be like, dude, like, for

(43:24):
example, like one of my closerslives up in Toronto, and this
weekend I'm gonna be there, andlike I'm probably gonna take
this kid to Paris, Texas.
You know, that's a that's a apopular like bar.
Like I've partied with thembefore, like I've I've been out
with all these guys, and so it'slike that's like the shit that
I want to do.
I don't have to like train themor discipline them, I just get
to you know make ads and partywith my closers, but that's a

(43:44):
perfect position to be in.

Darren (43:45):
But I I love that dude.
Um, it's more of like a familyvibe whereby you're all in it
together.
Like we up until we had theoffice, we were all working for
my villa, and the villa, youknow, it was fine for fucking a
few people, and then it justkept growing and growing.
But we eat together.
Actually, funny enough, I wasjust messaged the guys before
you joined.
We trained together every day,super important.

(44:05):
So the bro, the gyms in Baliare fucking insane.
Like, like gym, recovery, food,like everything's kind of like
in one like compound, andthere's like 20 of these places,
bro.
By the way, they're likereally, really beautiful.
Like it's like a country club,basically.
Um, as you'll find this funny,bro.
Um, the guys were like, askedme one day, they were like,

(44:26):
like, do we get like healthcare?
And I was like, no, but ifyou're a fat, I'll pay for your
personal trainer.
So all the all the guys trainwith my coach.
My coach is like a probodybuilder, bear mine.
I'm like, go to him and he'lltake care of you.
And then they were like, Willyou pay for that?
And I was like, No, no, no, youhave to pay for yourself.
You won't fucking appreciate itif you don't pay for it.
And then they're all gettingjacked, getting shredded, making

(44:46):
money, and having fun.
Like, bro, it doesn't get anybetter than that.

I bet their performance goes up when they
shed that weight, too, bro.
100%, dude.
100% that little saying that Ilove so much.
Like, how you do anything ishow you do everything.
So if you're if you're a littlebit lazy in the gym, you're
you're way too sedentary, you'reeating like a pig, you're not
gonna be as effective.
Like, you're way more lockedin, you're way more effective.
Like, if you got fitness dialedand you're socialized dialed,

(45:11):
like you're gonna be dialed onthe phones too, or whatever
they're doing if they'reselling.

Darren (45:14):
Yeah, 100%, dude.
Dude, that was a big part ofyour journey too, right?
I remember two or three yearsago, that's when you first like
properly got into the gym.

I've I've kind of always been in the gym, but
I've definitely I've had I'vebeen a lot fatter than I am
right now.
Um I uh I originally lost likea shit ton of weight.
Like, dude, I was big.
I was like 180, which for myframe is is too much.
Like, I'm I'm not a taller guy,I'm like 5'7.
And same.

Darren (45:40):
On a good day, I get up to 5'6.

But dude, like we have the same thing where it's
like you can you can look likehow you look, not working nearly
as hard in the gym.
Like, we have it easier 100.

Darren (45:53):
But also, bro, you can get I'll tell you a fucking
funny story afterwards, but youcan look shit really quickly.
This is one thing I noticed.
Like, I I'm like 80 kilos now,and I can just like one kilo on
me is like huge, is like big onmy face and shit.

And that can be one bad weekend, you know what I
mean?
Like my my maintenance caloriesare like 2300 or so, 2200.
And so you can I can eat 2200calories in one sitting if I
want to.
It's easy.
Like some of these guys who arelike 6'2 plus, and they can
they can eat 3500 calories a dayand be fine, like they'll still
lose weight.
Like that, I don't know.

(46:30):
That's just a reality I'llnever get to be a part of.
But I um I realized I waslooking way too chubby, I think
like summer 2023.
And also that was um, you everheard of uh I think it's called
First Batty Syndrome orsomething like that?
And I started dating this girlwho I at the time I thought was
like a little bit too hot forme, and I was like, man, I gotta

(46:50):
I gotta get my shit together.
Like she was she was way hotterthan I was, and so I was like,
I gotta close this gap a littlebit.
Um, and then I don't know ifyou fuck with peptides or
anything, bro, but I've beenkind of on and off of Reta for
the last like few months, notbecause I need to spread, but
because I it just makes it somuch easier to maintain and just
like not get out of control.

Darren (47:13):
So I was on BCP 157 for recovery, but that was only when
I was running marathons, andbro, like I just basically I
tore my calve and I was tryingto fix it with a fucking
peptide, so it's kind of like Idon't even know what it is, bro.
I don't even can't even thinkof an analogy for it.
So that was that was retarded,and then I I started TRT about a

(47:33):
month ago.
I have a hilarious story foryou.
So I'm 29, my test was 714, andmy free test was pretty good,
it was like 24, whatever thefuck that means.
Um, but I've been trainingsince I was 14, so I was
competing when I was younger andall this kind of stuff.
And the big issue for me is toput on more muscle takes so much
of a buck.
So if I spent I spent sixmonths on a buck, right?

(47:55):
And I put on like two kilos ofmuscle, the rest of fat.
So I spoke to my coach, and Iwas like, we were like basically
we're gonna run a small dose ofTRT.
So I run like 150 megs, andbro, it was fucking crazy,
craziest shit ever, bro.
Within like a day, uh like Isaid, three days, you know what

(48:16):
it's like?
It's like Terminator.
I wake up, I'm asleep likethis, and then my eyes open and
I'm like, must scale now.
I just my brain is just likealways on, and the best analogy
is it's like driving a Ferrari,which you own, at full throttle,
full revs at all times, andalso, bro, there's like a huge

(48:36):
link between like high test andrisk, and I'm just way more risk
on, and also decision making.
You're just because you thinkabout it, right?
If you're in a corporate joband you're like a fatty and
you're like you know low testguy, you you're like a super
indecisive.
You're like, I must ask mymanager, can I go to the
bathroom?
Whereas if you're like hightest, you just make decisions
faster and you're like fuck it,I'll just figure it out, and

(48:57):
that's basically what happens.
So I need to get my bloods donenow at the end of the month,
but I expect it to be in around1200, generally, generally, man,
genuinely, and like that that'ssuper and the analogy is kind
of like because I was never onit, when I went on it, it
basically has like a hugeresponse, you become like a
super responder basically toyour body, and uh yeah, man,

(49:20):
it's fucking crazy.
So obviously, like you're superyoung, but maybe like three
years' time.
Um, so just for a bit ofcontext, I put on six kilos,
which is like 13 pounds, 14pound in six weeks.
Wow, wait, when did you start?
Like seven weeks ago.
I put on four kilos in a week.

Now that you've started, is this so have you
have you kind of made peace withthe fact that this is like are
you gonna do it forever?
Like, are you ever gonna getoff, or is there like a plan to
get off?

Darren (49:48):
Or yeah, well, like this is the thing is that like you
want to be able to do this wellinto your 30s and 40s, and one
of the reasons why people quitjust with everything is because
they drive, the drive goes down.
So the logic is like, you know,if you're gonna go on it at
like 40 because you want to haveyour your drive to build stuff
when you're in your 40s and 50s,well then you may as well just

(50:09):
have it throughout the entireperiod.
And honestly, dude, like theamount of involvement that takes
when you get over that mentalbarrier, it kind of like adds,
it's so little to maintain.
Like it's if you think aboutthe context of like going to the
gym, getting your food right,sleeping, uh, it's so much
easier, genuinely.
And it's it's actually funnybecause there's loads of studies
on if you if you're on TRT andyou don't train, if you're on

(50:32):
TRT, train.
If you don't take TRT, train.
If you don't take TRT and don'ttrain, the guys who take TRT
and don't train make moreprogress than guys that are in
the gym.

I know, dude.
I saw that.
I think it was a Jeff JeffNippert video, and that shit
blew my mind.
I couldn't believe it.
Guys that will take steroidsand sit on the couch will make
more gains than you and Inaturally busting our ass, like
going full out in the gym.
And it's not by a lot, yeah.

Darren (50:59):
No, but by a lot, dude.
I was sick.
I got like sick for the first.
I was actually I had a podcastwith Jeremy Haynes and I
messaged him being like, I soundlike fucking Spongebob, I have
to cancel.
And then he was like, Oh, okay.
And then a week later, I had mypodcast with him, and he's
like, Do you feel better?
And I was fully bedbound for aweek, and I'm usually itching to
get back to the gym.
And after like five days, I waslike, I am bigger than what I

(51:21):
was before I got sick because mybody was like it was
recovering, number one.
And I got up and I was like, myshoulders are rounder, I have
more energy, and I was sick,bear mind.
I was fucking bedridden, bro,for a week.
And yeah, dude, it's it's aninteresting game.
So I was joking to my to mycoach yesterday, and you like
you see like the fucking TRTneedle, and it's like it's like

(51:44):
it's all about recovery, bro.
Because that's like the mentalmodel, and it's interesting,
right?
Because like if that's a superlow dose, imagine when you're I
don't know, like you're cycling,or what I mean is you're
actually physically cycling,like you're like a cyclist, or
you're a bodybuilder, or you'recompeting at a high level,
you're just in a different ballgame, you know.

(52:04):
So one thing you gotta be awareof too is like you know,
Hormosy says he's on TRT aswell, right?
But it's all about the dose.
You know, if you're at ifyou're at 250 milligrams, that
probably means nothing to younow, but if you go for like 150
to 250, it's not TRT anymore,right?
It's just straight up cycle.
So, yeah, so you just gotta becareful, like, you know, where
do you fall within thatthreshold?
Like, as my coach says, what'sTRT plus?

(52:26):
You know, there's TRT plus, andthen there's just gear.
And it's like, okay, whichbracket are we actually in?

It's fun.
I I follow this guy on Twitter.
This is how I know all thisstuff, bro.
I don't really look into itoutside of this one guy, uh,
anti-anti doc, uh, mass monsteror something like that.
He's do you know who I'mtalking about?

Darren (52:46):
No, such a Twitter name, though.

He's an anonymous Twitter user that like he has
basically an uh let me find him.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, mass mentor.
That's what, yeah, anti-doc.
Um, he's uh anonymous Twitterguy that I guess just
experiments on all kinds ofrandom shit.
Like, I don't know if he likeactively does like any crazy,
crazy steroids, like any of thedangerous shit, like DECA or

(53:08):
Trend, but he like bro, he's ahuman pin cushion, he'll fucking
pin whatever.
Like, if it's if it's apeptide, he'll do it.
And they he makes these, or nothim, but the the company he's
affiliated with, they make thesemixes and stuff.
And so there's one called Glow,where it's like a mix of like
GHK and something else, and it'slike he'll he'll just try
whatever, and like he's very prolike steroids.

(53:32):
He's honestly normalized itwhere it's like, dude, I used to
think that if you were takingtests, like you were a crazy
person.
It's like, why the fuck are youon tests, bro?
Like, you're you don't needthat, like your balls are gonna
shrink.
Like, I had all these likeweird, I didn't know how it
worked, right?
Now, like I actually know ahandful of guys who are younger
than me doing TRT because theyactually need it.

Darren (53:50):
And dude, even if you look at someone like Rob, Rock
Rob the Bank, I don't know is hehonestly, but he's open about
T.
Yeah, and he's like 34 or 34?
32, I think.
Oh, really?
Okay, but like that's thereason why he has his frame,
bro.
The dude's like six footfucking six, and he's like super
jazzed.

I can't take pictures of him because he makes
me look like I'm like 4'11,bro.
He's such a big dude.

Darren (54:12):
When I met him in Miami, he got out of a fucking
escalade.
He got out of an escalade, andI was like, this dude looks like
a professional basketballplayer, just the way he walks in
his massive fucking greenjacket, and uh that was a big
thing for me, right?
Because it's not about like,are you too young?
It's just about like are youactually committed?
And I would say one of thevariables why he can just get up

(54:33):
and fucking shoe glass everyday is because of that.
It's one of the you know athousand variables, but yeah,
man, and I and I genuinelylooking at someone like Hermosy,
it's one of the same effects aswell.
Because you gotta think aboutit, man.
Like, as you get past like 28,29, your body actually does
actually decay, right?
It like it actually slowlydecays until it decomposes until

(54:54):
you die.
And one is obviously your hair,two is like yeah, this just
sounds so weird now, but yourhair, your skin follicles, your
skin cells become hair cells,right?
You like develop hair on yourback, your ears, like you
actually literally startdecaying, but you can stop that
with TRT.
You can actually literally stopthat, and it's also fucking
legal, bro.

(55:14):
Like it's fully legal, it'slegalized.
You can you literally get itadministered by a doctor.
So if a doctor is administeringto, it's fully legal, you can
travel with it.
Then, like, where actually isthe issue?
The issue is like your in your,as you said, your awareness of
the information.
So once I had looked into itfor quite some time, I was like,
Well, this makes fuckingperfect sense.

For my kids, it's a business decision.
I I have I'm very curious aboutthis, and I've dude, I I've
joked around so much, like withmy boys and stuff, like, dude,
fuck it, I'm hopping on test.
Like, I I always everyonealways jokes about it, but like
I'm actually I'm curious.
Let's say, let's say you're um,like you are traveling, right?
So you obviously bring like Iguess alcohol pads and the

(55:56):
syringes and the the test in alittle bottle.
What happens if you don't takeit?
Like, if you for some reason,like either you the you can't
get access to it or you don'thave syringes, or what
especially in Bali, where it'slike that stuff's probably not
readily available.
Are you screwed if you don'ttake it for like two weeks, or
like what happens?

Darren (56:16):
Not for like two weeks.
You could you're pretty muchgood for that, and after like
four weeks, then you're probablygonna go back to like normal
levels.
But this is the thing is likeif you're blasting fucking gear,
of course you're gonna feellike shit.
But I actually said exactlythis in my coach when I was
doing it, it was like, whatabout that two to four week
range?
It's good, it's chill, and it'salmost like not worth the
hassle like bringing it.
Like, you need a doctor's noteanyway, which is fine.

(56:37):
But and you can also literallygo in and out of America under
like there's like a specialmedical act that that allows you
to do that, and it's justpreloaded, it's like a fucking
gun, preloaded.
You can just go in anywhere ifyou want to, but full
transparency.
If I'm going into SanFrancisco, which I need to do
next month for like a week ortwo, I'm not gonna bring
anything with me.
I'm just gonna go work, comeback, done.

(56:58):
Dude, this shows you like howretarded science can be, or
like, yeah, yeah, literallyscience can be.
When TRT started, it was oneinjection a month you were
given.
So of like I'm on 60.
So you're you're doing 150 aweek, right?
150 a week, right?
Yes, pretty much, because it's60 milliliters I take a week.

(57:21):
So they would just preload thatshit, fuck it in your ass or
whatever, and then it would justit would just like boom and
then release, which is so badfor your blood, bro.
Like that's super, super badfor your blood.
Like you never want anything.
It's like take it's like takinglike ecstasy, man, right?
You don't like ecstasy isinherently bad because you go up
and go down.
So it's like it's basically theequivalent of that just for

(57:43):
just for testosterone.
So that's that's stillhappening.
Even like one of my matesthat's here, he was like, Oh
yeah, like quite literally, Ijust go to the doctor and they
just stick it in my ass, andthen I come back the next month.
And I was like, What?

Wow, what are you are you inventing yourself?

Darren (57:59):
Yeah, and you can do like I would say I would suggest
like two to three times a week,and it's just done chill.

Because I I won't even do my own retina needles,
and they're tiny needles, andit's like it's sub Q, so it'll
be like my belly.
But when I'm in Miami, we'regonna have a nurse come and do
it, and now that I'm in Canada,I have my my EA coming down.
It's not her job, bro.
She helps me kids.

Darren (58:20):
But yeah, that's how it's like it's like to scale
this business, you're gonna haveto do this.
It's a business expense.

No, for real.
Like, but I I I had her doeverything, bro.
She like bought it online andshe's like reconstituting it for
me and everything, and thenshe's come and shoot me up, and
then back on she goes.

Darren (58:35):
Dude, that's so fucking funny.
Yeah, and you have again,right?
You have to be not careful, youhave to be careful, obviously,
but you gotta see what's bestfit, right?
It's like sub Q, which is blowyour belly button.
That's actually not best forlike TRT sometimes.
I'd much prefer like your yeah,but that's what I mean.
It's like you just gotta becareful, right?
If like if you're using apeptide, if you're using this,
you see, understand like whatare you actually using and like

(58:56):
what's what's the actual outcomeI'm gonna get for it?
Because dude, you do you everget like pip, like
post-injection pain?
Do I know?
Oh, okay, that's interesting.
So I get that I actually getthat quite a lot.
So like my leg, I'll get like alike a it's almost like um it's
like a dead leg when you're inschool and someone hits you in
the leg, you get that likefeeling, and it's like ooh, fuck
that's sore, and you have thatfor like 24 hours.

(59:18):
So it just you gotta figure itout, right?
It's like kind of it's justbromad, bro math, bro science.
It's like the ads, you gottafigure it, figure them out one
way.

Bro, every man.

Darren (59:28):
But it's it's literally like a make money meme, you know
what I mean?
It's like the EA injecting thepeptide so I can run more ads,
just making sure that it allfits together.

Exactly, bro.
It all it all ties in.
Um, yeah, dude.
But to take it back, um I I umI probably won't be doing TRT
for a while.
I'm gonna I'm gonna try and seewhat I can do naturally first,
but I will hit you up when Iwhen I decide to do it.

Darren (59:57):
When I get to my get your blood stone.
That's that's The biggest thingmy bloods have been super
stable for years, dude.
It was basically the exact samelike 714, 704, 726 for like two
years straight.
You were only natural.
Well, that well, also, bro,like I I so I was a super D gen,
and I mean like very, veryheavy.

(01:00:19):
Like partying, I beat the everyyear, like a couple times a
year, all this kind of stuff.
That because I'm kind of likeinherently stupid, I took a
break from all that stuff tobuild a business.
Because one, I just likefucking needed to figure shit
out, and then two, I kind ofnever went back.
So that was the biggest thingwas like I just never really
went back to it.
Just because I don't know,Asia's not huge for partying, to

(01:00:40):
be honest.
Like, it's very big on likelifestyle factors.
So I could when I took away abreak from that, that obviously
meant my physique was going toget better, my energy's gonna
get better, my stress got waywent way down.
Like, dude, I was super fuckingerratic when I was younger,
just like couldn't hold arelationship all over the place.
Um, and all that stuff kind ofsettled, so then I was getting
really dialed in in training.

(01:01:01):
And for me, um, I do want toget into like really kind of
extreme sport, like longdistance running, like really
heavy shit.
But one, it's a massive timesink for the business, and then
two, I just feel I'm too young.
So I was like, all right, justgonna bro scale it for a bit,
and uh you can always do thatstuff when you're older, like
35-40, but you can't really dothat stuff when you're in your
20s, right?

CardinalMason (01:01:19):
You're talking about business?

Darren (01:01:21):
No, like more like long, extreme sport shit, you know,
whether it's like extremerunning and all that kind of
stuff.
You want to do that, yeah.
You want to optimize this timefor right now for like building
the business, building the body,building the brain, and then
you can do all that shit whenyou're older, right?

Yeah, dude, that's actually and like it's
it's gonna sound silly becauseyou're older than me, but like,
dude, I'm the oldest out of likemy friend group.
Um, I'm like I said, I'm 26.
And dude, 26 is when I'mstarting to feel like I'm
already starting to feel like ateaser of what it'll be like to
be 30 or 35, where it's likethere's some shit that is just
like, dude, I threw my back outlike a month ago or something,

(01:01:57):
and it was really bad, bro.
I like legit could not walk forlike three days.
Um, I ended up fixing it justby having a couple drinks, and
like my body just relaxed, andso everything was totally fine.
Um like, dude, I was like inunbearable pain for like for
like a full five days, and thenI like forced myself because I
was still moving around a littlebit.

(01:02:18):
I was I found out I was able todrive the car.
And so I I got in the Ferrariand I put my girl in the
passenger seat and we drove upto West West Palm to this hotel
called the Ben.
And we just wanted to have likea little weekend or whatever.
And um, dude, I uh I we went tothe hotel bar and I I limped to
the hotel bar.
I was like walking kind ofsideways.

(01:02:39):
And then when I I sat down atthe stool and I had four Moscow
mules.
And by the time I got up offthe stool and went back to the
hotel room, it was fine.
So I don't know what happened,bro.
It was just like a really tensemuscle.
But anyway, when I was walkingaround all sore and just like
just feeling shitty and likeinflexible and immobile, I was
like, man, like this is this ishow like old people actually

(01:03:02):
are.
Like this is gonna be me oneday.
And like I've suddenly feltthis urgency to like just start
to protect my body a little bitmore.
Like I used to laugh at guyswho would do mobility training,
you know, Logan Fitz?
I love Logan Fitz, and like heand he's like also DGen, but
also like trains really hard.
And he used to like get on onTwitter and start talking about

(01:03:26):
train mobility.
I'm like, dude, you're LoganFitz, like you're like 220
pounds, just pure muscle.
Like, why are you talking aboutmobility?
And like now I'm starting tounderstand why people do that
because it's it's a longevityplay, you know.
I mean, like you want to belike you want to feel good
forever.

Darren (01:03:41):
I'm like fuck man, the the gym that I'm in is literally
like a mobility gym.
Like there's obviously a shitton of like Smith Machines and
dumbbells and stuff, but allthose mobility guys, it's funny
enough.
A lot of those likebodybuilding bros, they move
into calisthenics and they'reall doing like wild calisthetics
now.
Now I will say they built themuscle and now they look
insanely shredded, likeinsanely, insanely shredded

(01:04:03):
because they're working onmobility, they're doing a shit
ton of like bodyweight stuff,but like actual tension stuff.
So yeah, man, it like you know,I I actually always say that in
Bali health is the ultimateflex because you can't drive
good cars here.
Um, it's super fucking humid,so I don't even I don't even
wear my watches here, man.
I might wear them out ofdinner, but I got I can't wear

(01:04:23):
them during the day because mymy wrists expand, so I can't
even wear a fucking watch.
Um yeah, health is the ultimateflex, man.

That's that's an interesting way to put it.
Yeah, you got nothing elsethere.

Darren (01:04:35):
Dude, there's literally nothing here.
Like I'm actually beingserious.
The traffic is so bad, um, it'sjust so fucking and it's so
terrible.
You can't get a car here.
Like you can't.
And I've seen like a four a fewPorsches and they just look
retarded because the roads arejust so heavy with traffic that
the only way to get around ismotorbike.
So I have a I have a decentenough motorbike, but it's still
it's still not a priority,right?
This is the thing, is like it'sjust not a priority, um which

(01:04:58):
is a good and a bad thing.
I obviously wish I would havelike a little bit more like a
luxuries like that, but at theend of the day, what I'm
optimizing for it's funnybecause it's like I'm not
optimizing for like a watch,right?
I'm optimizing for like areally good business that pays
me, that I have fun with, that Iwork with good people, that I
build something really actuallyfucking meaningful and get good
results.
It's just interesting.
I feel like a lot of people gothrough that arc.

(01:05:20):
Does that make sense?

Dude, it's so funny you say that because like
my my why has changed so muchover the last few years.
Like back in 2022, startedmaking money.
My why was I want to buy myfirst Rolex.
That's what I want.
That was all I cared about, youknow what I mean?
Um, and back in the day, likebefore that used to be like, my
why is I want to move out, butnow it has nothing to do with

(01:05:41):
even the money that's going intothe bank account.
Like, I don't really care thatmuch.
I don't I my my spending habitshave gone way down.
It used to be out of control.
Like I used to spend like 80grand a month on personal shit,
bro.
It's crazy.
Yeah, it was wild.
Um, so that's gone down.
I've fixed that a little bit,and like now, like my why, bro,
is like it's just straight upscoreboard.

(01:06:03):
I say this to a lot of people,and they're like, no, bro, like
you also want stuff.
And it's like, yeah, of courseI want stuff.
Like, I want a crib and I want,you know, whatever.
Like, I want whatever.
But like the thing that drivesme now is like who else, like
how who can I beat?
Like, who else is ahead of me?
And I I always see um revenue,not profit, but revenue in terms

(01:06:25):
of like how good are you atbusiness?
Like, I remember I heard thisoriginally from my buddy Daniel
Fazio, who I don't know if youknow him, but he's a great
entrepreneur, he's builtmultiple successful, like seven,
eight-figure businesses.
And he said that like ifsomebody is beating you in
revenue, they are they arebetter at business than you.
And like, I used to make allthese excuses where it's like
the same thing when I wastalking about Brooke, right?

(01:06:47):
Where it's like, oh well, hisoffer is better, and like
they've got a bigger team andthey're using ads and stuff, and
I'm just doing this allorganic.
If someone is making more inrevenue than you are, they're
they're ahead of you skill-wise.
And so, like, obviously,there's people that are way
ahead of me, like in myindustry, like in my vertical
that are way like crushing me.
But that's what drives me whereit's like, okay, now like as of

(01:07:10):
August, like I got aseven-figure month on the board.
Like, that's cool.
Meaning, like the next one thatI'm gonna have to knock down is
like it's gonna, it's gonna putme up a few notches, and like
that's just what I care about.

Darren (01:07:23):
Just like putting up numbers specifically with and
that's why I have kept thepodcast, true and everything.
I didn't mean to interrupt you,but that's why I've kept a
podcast because like you know,I'm fucking scaling all day and
I was like, okay, I want to havethis conversation.
I'm just gonna finish thisconversation and go fucking
double my ad spend, right?
Because it's like someone who'syounger than me can do it.
In theory, why can't someoneelse do it?

(01:07:45):
Right?
And it's obviously there's likea skill deficiency, whatever,
whatever.
But at the end of the fuckingday, it's just about getting a
few different variables correct,and it's like, yes, that's a
big play.
And that was one of the reasonswhy I got into software, man,
because my background was inengineering mildly, mildly.
But that's what I did inschool, right?
And I was like, this is like atorn in my side, and I have a

(01:08:06):
bit of capital to be able toinvest in it.
And I was like, okay, let'slet's do this, right?
Let's do this, let's do thiswith the info.
It's it's a it's a typical heroarc, right?
Alex Becker, Hyros, um it's allit's all of them, right?
If you look at Umar Ashroff andTradeZilla, same shit.
It's just you build info, get ashit ton of customers, build a
software to help them becauseyou're playing like a like a

(01:08:27):
bigger game, and that's whatkeeps me in the game, dude.
That's that's what keeps melike super, super excited.
And what's interesting aboutthat is if you want to have that
kind of play, or even like youwith real estate, that means you
need to get even better at yourinfo.
You can't forget it, you haveto get even better at it.
So, even my team, they werelike, So, like, how does like

(01:08:47):
the marketing look for the otherthing?
And I was like, No, no, bro,like opposite, opposite.
We need more customers andinfo, more clients to have more
customers.
Exactly it's beautiful, yeah.
It's a beautiful littleflywheel.

And that's what I was gonna say.
It's like that's how you knowyou're in a good spot, is like
when you have one main thingyou're doing.
The SaaS is not separate fromthe main thing, the info thing.
It all works together.
Like you have you have the themain offer, and then you have a
SaaS behind it, and maybethere's some sort of B2B play
that you can do later down theline or something, something,
you know what I mean?
Like the best offers like haveall of those things.

Darren (01:09:21):
Yeah, man.
What would would you everconsider that for yourself?
Because I like I know you'rereally like hard on like AI
copywriting.
One observation I've had,because like we're doing like an
AI SaaS, but the difference iswe're doing it on quantitative
data versus qualitative.
Let me give an example.
So it's an AI SAS for sales,like it's like a really autistic
like sales, uh AI sales coach,but it's for quantitative data.

(01:09:44):
So if you looked at like a showrate, close right, it's very
easy for us to dointerpretations, but with AI
text, it's very subjective.
You could look at copy andthink it's shit.
I could look at copy and thinkit's great.
I'm just curious because likeyou have that ecosystem of
customers and brand that youcould kill it.

Your SAS is it analyzes sales conversations,
what you're saying?

Darren (01:10:07):
Yeah, so basically it's uh again AI sales manager.
So basically, it's if youimagine your shitty CRM that
doesn't even fucking work, it'sautomating all your sales goals,
it's tracking it, it's managingit, and then with all the
insights that we have of allyour calls, it's running like
analysis based on it, which islike, hey, like it's not cool
that your show we're at superlow.
Here's your forecast for themonth, here's how many calls you

(01:10:28):
need.
Um, so it's like a hugedashboard with like an AI sales
coach built into it.
Um, yeah, we already have likea shit ton of customers, like
big sales teams and stuff.
So we also run a big sales teamtoo.
So it's like it actuallystarted for us, and then it's uh
it's become quite good.
And yeah, we're just gonna bedoing like a lot of outbound
getting good salespeople on.
But the biggest the reason I'msaying this is because when you

(01:10:51):
have the data, it's easy to doall the analysis.
But we actually started,funnily enough, with a VSL
builder, and that was a shitshow because it was so
subjective.
Copy was so so difficult toanalyze, it was so it was so
difficult to come out with goodcopy because everyone has their
own taste, right?

(01:11:12):
And this is what I was kind ofthinking for you is like it
seems like there's a bigopportunity here for you, but it
seems like it would be muchmore complicated for you,
basically.

It definitely is, and that's kind of why I've
held off on doing any sort oflike SaaS-related stuff.
Like, dude, people were talkingabout like building like a copy
MBA AI copywriting tool backlike two years ago.
And I was like, nah, man, likeit only recently has gotten like
to the point where it isactually good.
And if you know how to promptit properly, you can do whatever
you want.
Like, I gotta write a VSLbecause you were saying, like,

(01:11:42):
after this podcast, you're gonnago like hop back in the ads
manager.
I gotta write a VSL.
I need like a short VSL forthis one funnel that we're gonna
try out, and it'll probably bedone in like an hour because
there's like there's a wholesystem that like it can do
exactly what you want if youknow how to prompt it.
And so I think the solution tothe whole like, what are we

(01:12:04):
gonna like turn into a SaaS forus?
I actually, funny story, me andBen, um, we were going to we
were gonna build a SaaS startingat the beginning of the year.
He pitched me the idea inJanuary, and basically what we
were gonna do was clone anothertool that was starting to get a
little bit of traction, it wasreally cool, it was really

(01:12:25):
effective.
And I was like, all right,let's do it.
And so we we hired like realAmerican devs and we brought in
a CTO to build this thing, andwe were spending around 15, 20k
a month on uh on devs to like toget it up and running.
And by the time that it wasdone, um, the other person that
we were trying to copy was sofar ahead that we couldn't it

(01:12:47):
wasn't even worth launching.
We were like, so we actuallyjust cut our losses and we just
like we we we couldn't even sellit for parts because no one
wanted it.
So we literally just like wetook the rest of the money out
of the bank account and closeddown.
And him and I together haveboth been thinking, like, what
should we do?
Like we should do somethingtogether.
And uh there's one companyright now that we've actually

(01:13:08):
been talking to back and forthfor a while on like just trying
to figure out the right numbersbecause we're gonna get equity
and we're gonna promote it.
And um I think that that'sprobably gonna be the way we do.
We're not gonna build itourselves because like again,
that that that costs a shit tonof money.
Like, you have a background inthis, so like you know, you know
how to code, obviously, right?

Darren (01:13:26):
I know how to code, but similar to you, I brought in a
Canadian developer and uh theguy's shit hot.
He was like 10 years'experience in Shopify, and uh
yeah, like it's super expensive.
But the biggest thing is frontend or like specifically front
end, I have a good eye for youUI, like I've a good like design
eye, so it's very easy for meto be like, oh, okay, it should

(01:13:46):
look like this, and obviously Iknow the subject, which is
sales, so that that was a bighelp, and then also being able
to get our first customers now.
Again, we're still pre-revenue,right?
But we do have bro, I do havelike 20 to 25 sales teams
looking to pay anywhere between500 and 1500 a month right now,
so it's a fucking good positionto be in.

(01:14:06):
Just because like I just as wewere talking right now, I just
fucking love this shit, similarto you, but B2C, bro, it's a
it's a dog fight.
Actually, Eman said that to me.
He was like, if you're gonna dosomething, don't do B2C
software.
He was like, it is the biggestdog fight of all time.
B2B, easy, easier, yeah.

Because you go higher tickets.

Darren (01:14:26):
Sorry, E higher tickets.
So again, a preface.
Harder to get clients, buteasier uh to reduce churn.
Other way around, if you wereto launch like a B2C TikTok
fucking software, um a bunch ofdumbasses who are 16 will get on
and they'll hop on, hop off.
So that's one of my uh one ofmy reservations with some of the

(01:14:48):
like school softwares, youknow, to integrate with, like
um, for hormosy, is like you'regonna get a bunch of people to
click on and click off, which isreally fucking not good for the
brand.
Like it's it's actuallyextremely bad for the brand if
you have people who click on andclick off all the time.
So there's just a lot ofconsideration with B2C stuff
that you're not gonna get inB2B.

Yeah, yeah.
I mean, bro, B2C across theboard is tough.
Um like uh, you know, uhLiskit.

Darren (01:15:17):
Yeah, that's dynophasio, right?

Yeah, so I mean the reason they were able to do
so well is because they had athey had an offer that was in
the thousands of dollars.
So it obviously it's a SaaS,and I think it's credit based.
I don't even know if it's asubscription SaaS.
But they their intro offer waslike a combination of like the
actual software and of a servicethey're providing that people

(01:15:42):
would pay $2,500 or $3K for thatthey were able to run ads to.
So, like for most people whoare trying to run ads to a $20 a
month SaaS, there's no way youcan't make it work unless you
have billions of dollars offunding, or not billions, but
you know, multiple figures offunding that you can just dump

(01:16:02):
into ads and hope that you'reprofitable if you fix the churn
problem on like month nine ofthese people, and like across
you know, enough scale you canget it to work.
But like for Liskit, um,they're good marketers, they
know their their market, and theoffer was really good.
It was a setup, like a coldemail setup offer that they they

(01:16:22):
ran with, and that makes somuch sense.
And I wish I had some sort ofbusiness like that.
Oh, by the way, they're gonnahave a a nice check in a few
years from now.
Um, that I'm I think they'vebeen pretty open about.
But I mean, dude, that's mysort of dream business.
Like that would be awesomegoing B2B uh with a software
that inherently has like wayhigher multiples than the stuff

(01:16:45):
that you and I mostly do.
Um, and then yeah, you'redealing with people who are
mostly qualified, they all havebusinesses, they're not like
you're not gonna have likerandom unemployed people in your
funnel, it's just not relevantto them.

Darren (01:16:55):
Yeah, they're not they're not even gonna care
about it, right?
And I think it's something youmade me to think of like if
you're gonna do that play withyourself and Ben, is like we're
gonna give it to our customers,our clients, for free for 90
days, onboard them, they'regonna use it.
So everyone's gonna use it forfree, they're gonna be using it
anyway to track their salescalls and just look at their
sales data.
It's gonna be very like uh kindof gamified casino vibe so that

(01:17:19):
like people can really see likeprogress that they're making,
and then after like 90 days, ifthey move on to a subscription
of like 250 a month, no onegives a shit, right?
And if they have a bigger team,then it might be like 800 a
month or whatever.
So people want their life likeyou you wanna you wanna leverage
what you have already, and thenthe thing about Lisp gets super
interesting because that was abig thing that we wanted to do,
which was coach people on theirsales, like founder led sales,

(01:17:44):
small sales team, which you'vedone a good job on, like it's
part of our offer too.
So we coach sales, teach themthe fucking fundamentals, and
then have this uh unilateralagreement, like info to SaaS,
SAS to info, back and back andforth, back and forth.
And uh, I think when that'slike at scale, you're just gonna
fucking kill it.
So that's why I was saying foryou, with all the customers that

(01:18:06):
you have, everyone that's inyour pipeline, you could really,
really, really nail it.

Well, I think I'm in a unique position where it's
like I I've been doing this awhile, and I got I got fat CRM
of a lot of people who arecustomers.
And so the the company thatwe're probably gonna end up
partnering with, it is B2C andit is low ticket, but I think
for us it would make sensebecause number one, Ben and I
aren't gonna have to front adsBen.
We're not gonna have to paymoney for this, like we're just

(01:18:32):
using our existing audiencesorganic and also paid.
Like, what I could do is like,for example, like we spent on
CallFunnel, we'll usually dolike anywhere between 10 and
12,000 a day.
And right now there's anotherfunnel they're probably gonna
spin up that'll be like anotherthree to five, I think, probably
by the end of the month.

(01:18:53):
And um, like, dude, tens ofmillions of people see the ad.
And like, even if they don'tdirectly come from me, they like
I can mention the name of thethe product in the ad or in the
VSL that another you know hugetranche of people are gonna land
on.
And like we can fill it justwith that.
And then especially if peopleare actually doing the business

(01:19:15):
model, and I like I tell themthat this is basically the
required thing you have to getis you know $20 to $50 a month,
whatever it is, then like we canget you know thousands of
people in there, and it itwouldn't be too difficult.
And so I think in my case, justbecause like we have so many
eyeballs right now, it makessense.
Um, but like if if I had a moreniche business, then I would

(01:19:39):
definitely go the more likehands-on B2B play and and charge
more for it.
But I think like, yeah, at thispoint, like we can probably get
away with doing B2C, but I Iknow ultimately like the what
the thing that you guys aredoing is probably like what
makes more sense likeeconomically.

Darren (01:19:54):
True, but again, it's it's it's audience size, right?
Like, quite literally, theengagement that we get is
probably like one to twopercent, you know, considering
well one percent considering theads that you get, so it's it's
a different level, it's adifferent fucking game, right?
But what I to kind of give yousome peace, right?
I spoke with uh Jordan Plattonrecently.
So Jordan's like a big likeagency guy from like back in the
day.
We actually do his content, soin our agency, we we run his

(01:20:17):
content on on Instagram, and umbasically he said that all of
his SaaS friends who are doing amillion a month in SaaS,
majority of it is paid, so theyhave self-liquidating funnels,
they generally recoup everythingwithin the first of two months,
and then after that, thenproviding the product of
products on shit, they'reprofitable, so everything's
profitable from there.

(01:20:38):
So some guys are spending 200ka month on the front end, making
back like a million basicallyuh in that month, and then
forever afterwards they'reprofitable because there's a bit
of a mindset shift, right?
Which is info, the rebuy rateis quite low, just in general.
People just buy things andthey're like, Oh, I thought it
was forever.
Whereas with SAS, like oneitself-serve for the most part,

(01:21:00):
unless you're doing like ahigh-ros model, and the second
thing is then there's nointeraction, so because like
info, as you know, with the ninecoaches you have or whatever
the fuck it is, it's notactually like infinitely
scalable unless you're sellinglike just a fucking ebook, but
that's not the game that theindustry is just not at that
point anymore, right?
There has to be people helpingactual people in the trenches,

(01:21:21):
otherwise, quite literally noone knows fucking anything.

Yeah, I mean, I I still think that like the
majority of my money that I'mgonna make over the next like
probably 10 years will be frominfo, and I don't even think
it's gonna be from my info.
I don't think it's gonna befrom Carter Mason's copy of me.
I I think like I've I've justlearned so much over the last
couple of years of how thesebusinesses work, and I know that

(01:21:45):
they're not going out of style,bro.
People are gonna continuebuying info, whether it's from
me or you or from somebody else,it's always gonna be a thing
that they will buy.
It's been a thing since the80s, bro.
Before that, probably, but likethat's what it went mainstream.
You know, the the like Chineseguy who would do like
infomercials, and like he waslike literally the first ever

(01:22:06):
guru, Tom Vu.
I believe his name was.
Tom Vu was in the 80s, he wouldlike do infomercials, and he
would be like, I'm rich, andhe'd like have like two like
baddies like with him, the sameshit that like you see all the
time.
Like, he'd have like a nicecar, he's like, I do real
estate.
I probably shouldn't be doingthe accent, but go you know what

(01:22:26):
I'm talking about.
Where like he was like, he Ithink he was teaching real
estate, or the fuck he wasteaching.
Yeah, look up Tom Vu.

Darren (01:22:32):
Dude, look at this guy.
Look, that's him, and then likehe's next to a video with Ty
Lopez, and it's like real estatescammer who totally got away
with it.

Yeah, so he was like oh so funny, man.
Um, so like they were doinginfomercials in the 80s, and
they were doing like direct mailin the 90s, and then like right
before 2010 is when theystarted doing it on on you know
online, and uh it's never goingaway, man.
I don't think that there's evergonna be a a period in in

(01:23:04):
humanity where people don't wantto make more money or they
don't want to lose weight orthey don't want to figure out
how to get laid or figure outhow to do it.
It's always gonna be a thing,and like there's infinite,
there's infinite free contentonline for all of those things,
and people are always gonna feellike there's something better

(01:23:26):
that you might get if you payfor it, which is usually true,
by the way.
Like the stuff that I put outon YouTube isn't nearly as good
as the stuff that I actuallyhave inside the program.
And also, it's important tonote, just for anybody watching,
I put a shit ton of time andmoney and effort into making the
program really good.
Like the product is good.
Like, I started as a productguy, I care about that.

(01:23:47):
So, like, these people aren'tjust getting sold bullshit, so
they do get results, but theinformation to figure out how to
do it yourself already exists.
These people would rather payjust to get the fast track, and
that's that's all that's justbehavior like human behavior
one-on-one, man.

Darren (01:24:04):
And again, right, info to pay for accountability,
services to pay forimplementation.
That's never going away, evenlike even with AI, like you're
still gonna need some fuckingrandom dudes just be like
actually there helping you.
So, yeah, dude, like you again,you know, you said about info
starting in the 80s, butuniversity's been around
forever, like education's beenaround forever, teaching has
been around forever.

(01:24:24):
So the concept, you know, youcan go more meta, the concept of
me implanting an idea into yourhead and teaching you something
has always been around.
So the but what's importanthere is adjusting with the
times, which is the reason whykind of you know, fucking two
hours ago I was saying you gottakeep keep up to date, which is
like if it's more paid now,don't be resistant, jump at it.

(01:24:46):
If your program needs an extrafucking four CSMs, don't be
resistant, jump at it.
Like, kind of do what'snecessary and not what's asked
of you, or not what's asked ofindustry.
And this is a big thing thatI've observed.
Like, dude, we do we docoaching six, we have six
coaching sessions a week.
Fucking six, bro.
And uh, like there, I do two,my another dude does two.

(01:25:06):
I have a second program as wellwhere I do three there, so it's
basically like you know, I dofive a week, basically.
Um, the reason being is becausepeople all over the world, we
don't do that much in thecommunity aspect, so we do more
stuff on calls.
I don't know, like you just youcan do what's necessary.
That might not work for youroffer, doesn't fucking matter,
right?
It's just like what's actuallynecessary to get people the
result and get out of your box,you know.

(01:25:27):
That's the biggest thing hereis get out of your box.

Yeah, I think one of the most valuable things
I've ever learned is you know, alot of people they'll double
down and and work really hardand lock in when things are bad,
like when numbers are goingdown.
They're like, okay, this isthis would be the time for me to
fucking work harder.
But it's usually the best time,like the best time to do that
is when things are really good.

(01:25:50):
And so, like, when you have,you know, a crazy record month,
that's not the time to chill.
You know, I mean, the the thetime to chill, I don't know when
the time to chill actually evenis, but like this is the time
when you need to double down,and like we all feel it.
Like, I I can't slow down rightnow, sales manager can't slow
down, media buyer.
Like, we're all we're on callslike for hours a day, just like

(01:26:12):
talking about this stuff, likefiguring out like what the next
move is.
Like, you you can't stopbecause like you never know how
long you have.
I have a friend who um he's atalented kid, really smart guy,
really good leader, like reallygood, uh, really good speaker.
People love this guy, and he'sgot a he's got a program that

(01:26:33):
has made people hundreds ofthousands, if not millions of
dollars.
Biza.
And he's he's killed it.
He started back a couple yearsago, and for a while he was
doing anywhere between three and500k a month with almost no
marketing, only word of mouth.
So, what would happen was hedid his first little launch, I
guess, got a couple hundredpeople in there, and they start

(01:26:56):
making some of them are makingyou know $10,000 to $30,000 a
month, some are making like over$80,000, some are making over
$100.
Like regular people, you know,I mean, not a crazy case.
And they start just tellingeveryone they know because it's
like, dude, I I don't know howthis happened.
I just joined this program, Istarted doing this guy town, I
started making like uh you knowtens of thousands a month, and

(01:27:20):
so for like almost a year,didn't post on TikTok, didn't
post on Instagram, didn't tweet,didn't post on YouTube, didn't
do anything.
Well, he would post on YouTube,it'd just be case studies of
people making like you know 50grand a month in their first
month or some stupid shit likethat.
I'll tell you what it is after.
Um, but yeah, and then like hedidn't do anything, it was all
word of mouth doing 500k amonth.

(01:27:42):
And now the obviously the theleads like people aren't you
know doing that as much as theywere, and now he has to like be
a marketer again and he hasn'thad to do that, he hasn't really
had to work in like a year.
And like he keeps saying, like,dude, I wish I just like did
this stuff, like I wish I wentall in when it was easy, like I
wish like when I was getting allthat word and mouth.

(01:28:03):
Like if I took, you know, ifI'm getting basically free half
a million dollars a month andlike throw a hundred of that in
ads, like what would happen?
Or if I just like poured somegas on the fire and started
making content, like what wouldwhat would have happened?
Like, would I have been doingtwo mil a month?
Like, you have no idea it waspossible.

Darren (01:28:22):
You need to double down.

That window is kind of gone.
And again, like we we talkedabout it, like organic has
gotten much harder, nowhere nearas easy to get attention as it
was two years ago.
And uh yeah, man, you reallygotta make hate with the sun
shines.

Darren (01:28:34):
Yeah, man.
That's a great point to finishup on.
Well, dude, you're a fuckinglegend.
This was so awesome.
Um, such a great podcast, sorandom, so much different random
shit.
Hopefully, we're getting backto America soon.
So hopefully we can do like abig, a big studio session next
time in person, or just dosomething from like a balcony or
some shit.
Like a lot of my best podcastsare literally just like in the
balcony.

Go to the penthouse.
We can hang out on the on thelittle terrace in there.
Yeah, man.
Um, we can go grab a bunch orwhatever, man.
It's great.
I appreciate the pod.

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#306 Cardinal Mason - How to Scale an Info Business to $1M/Month

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}#306 Cardinal Mason - How to Scale an Info Business to $1M/Month