November 28, 2025 • 41 mins
We explore how a therapist-led, process-oriented divorce recovery group helps women move through grief, confront shame, and build real co-parenting skills when conflict runs high. Join us for the bonus conversation with Dr. Kristen Hick (Center for Shared Insight). Along the way we name false summits, choose the right hills to die on, and find a steadier path forward.
What's in this episode:
• What a process-oriented group offers beyond support
• Weekly flow, safety, and facilitated interaction
• Grief as a normal, nonlinear part of divorce
• Shame vs guilt and why shame is stickier
• Community as an antidote to isolation
• Group and individual therapy working together
• Control traps with new partners, bedtimes, and rules
• Choosing enforceable hills and protecting peace
• Venting with boundaries and narrative work
• The long arc of recovery and holding hope
Join us today. We’ve made the Kids First Co-Parenting System a membership so it’s more accessible and affordable for moms just like you. Come in and get your first month and all the lessons again. You’ll find the details here.
Find Dr. Kristen Hick at the Center for Shared Insight, and learn more about the Divorce Recovery Group.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:05):
Welcome to the Kids First Co-Parenting Podcast, the
podcast for smart, intentional,millennial moms raising
resilient kids after separationand divorce.
I'm Dr.
Carolyn Royster, a childpsychologist coach, and a mom.
After thousands of therapy hourswith kids caught in the middle
of high-conflict households, I'mhere to help moms like you do it
(00:29):
differently.
From peaceful co-parenting tototal chaos, I've got you.
Here we talk boundaries,regulation, and how to raise a
great kid, even if your accessbeyond difficult.
We blend science with real life,and as always, focus where it
matters on raising great kids.
This is Kids First Co-Parenting.
(00:54):
Dr.
Kristen Hick is a licensedclinical psychologist
specializing in healing,strengthening, and transforming
intergenerational patterns tohelp individuals create the
relationships they desire, bothwith themselves and others in
their lives.
Dr.
Hick's experience includesdating and divorce recovery,
(01:15):
trauma and abuse healing, andsupporting women's perenatal and
reproductive health journeys.
She integrates EMDR, internalfamily systems, and
attachment-informed treatmentmethods into her work.
A highlight of Dr.
Hicks Week is facilitating adivorce recovery group for women
navigating and recovering fromlegal separation and divorce.
(01:37):
She has been leading thisprocess-oriented therapy group
since 2014, offering support towomen divorcing from both same
and opposite sex partners.
This group helps participantscope with the grief and the
emotional overwhelm, navigateco-parenting challenges,
understand relational patterns,rebuild their identity and
confidence, and create afulfilling life after their
(02:01):
divorce.
With over 20 years of experiencein the field, Dr.
Hick, alongside her therapy dogBarley, who is so stinking cute,
by the way, providescompassionate and skilled
therapeutic care for adults fromall walks of life.
I would love to welcome my dearfriend, colleague, and clinical
psychologist, Dr.
(02:21):
Kristen Hick.
Welcome, Dr.
Hick.
I'm so happy you're here.
SPEAKER_00 (02:25):
Yes, likewise.
I'm happy to be here finally.
SPEAKER_01 (02:28):
Yeah, my friend and colleague.
It's gonna be good to talk.
I said friend first because ofcourse.
Well, I really wanted to haveyou on the show because we have
a lot of overlap.
We have a lot of common areas offocus, I guess.
In particular, your divorcerecovery group is I refer to
(02:51):
that all the time.
SPEAKER_02 (02:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:52):
Because I my in the coaching program, I'm not doing
therapy.
And so I think this is a reallyhelpful resource.
So maybe we can just start withthat.
Tell us a little bit about whatthe group is, how did it start?
Who's it for?
SPEAKER_00 (03:06):
Yeah.
Just go there.
Um it's a divorce recovery groupand it's a process-oriented
group.
Most people think of therapygroups as support groups, and
this is a little bit different.
It goes into a lot more depthand it gets into the
interactions between memberswithin the group are explored
(03:28):
because that's reflective ofmaybe how you do things on the
outside too.
Okay.
So everyone in the group ismoving through or recovering
from the experience of divorce.
So it's a little bit differentthan a just a normal
run-of-the-mill general processgroup.
You're processing something veryspecific, but then also adding
(03:49):
the between member reactions ofyou said this when someone was
talking about this.
What did that bring up for you?
So it goes a little bit deeperthan just a support group, but
there's a lot of support there.
SPEAKER_01 (04:00):
Do you have a topic each week?
Or how does that do you justlike whatever has come up for
you this week, and then youguide people along?
SPEAKER_00 (04:10):
So we don't have a topic, but what I would say to
people who are interested in thegroup is that we get to all the
topics eventually.
We're gonna talk aboutboundaries, we're gonna talk
about grief, we're gonna talkabout co-parenting, we're gonna
talk about how to prep, notnecessarily legally prep for
mediation in court, but like howto emotionally get yourself
ready and what are you doing toget yourself there?
(04:32):
We talk about betrayal.
We talk about dating after Yeah.
So we talk about so manydifferent topics, but they come
up, they just come up naturally.
SPEAKER_01 (04:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:42):
So people they come into the group, we check in, we
just start with checking in withevery single person.
Um, and it happens the same wayevery time, which is a point of
like grounding people in thegroup, where are they at in
their week, helping them sit andreflect on what it is they need
from the group, and then we kindof go there.
Sometimes it's I need helpfiguring out whether I'm right
(05:05):
to think I want to switch myattorney that I'm having some
issues and I don't know ifthat's okay to do and how hard
that might be.
Or I am really challenged withhow to respond to my co-parents
in a way that's not going toinflame things.
Or I feel like saying this, butI know I should say this, so I
need some some help.
Or I'm just really strugglingwith how alone I feel.
(05:27):
We're getting to like all of it,but it comes up naturally based
on what people are goingthrough.
SPEAKER_01 (05:32):
Yeah.
And, you know, this is, I think,one of the kind of symbiotic
dynamics that you and I have isthat I sometimes we have a
little overlap, right?
Obviously, I'm more there'salways kids involved with the
people I work with.
And you don't necessarily haveto have kids involved as you say
it's more common that peoplehave kids when they come to the
(05:53):
group, but absolutely not.
It's yeah.
And I think there's this piecethat I always talk about with my
moms is you know, I can coachyou and teach you around what to
say in response to that comment,how to actually handle it.
Your therapist or your groupmembers will teach you why it
(06:14):
triggered you and explore thatand like go deeper into those
feelings in a way that is notappropriate for coaching.
SPEAKER_00 (06:23):
Yes, that's a great distinction between it.
I'm not saying what to say.
I'm really the other groupmember shouldn't be saying you
should say this.
Right.
But how what comes up from youwhen you want to say that?
Right.
Um what is that usual patternfor you?
Why is it hard to say that otherthing?
Right.
Um, that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_01 (06:44):
And sometimes that's where I get a little stuck,
right?
Is because in my mind, there'skind of a clear best response.
And sometimes when people don'tdo that, you're like, there's
something else happening here,and I need you to explore why
you are not listening.
Uh-huh.
(07:04):
So why what do you think isspecial about it being in a
group as opposed to, you know, alot of my moms have individual
therapists and I think they do abeautiful job, but why would
someone be more a fit for likethe group versus individual?
Or do you say both?
What do you what do you thinkabout that?
SPEAKER_00 (07:24):
I really encourage both.
It's not mandatory for a varietyof reasons because sometimes
it's not even financiallypossible to do both.
Yes, girl.
So it's an expensive season.
Yeah.
So many different ways.
I strongly encourage people tobe doing both at the same time
because there's so much thatcomes up in the group that
they're going to want to takeback to their individual
therapist to process a littlebit more or to then bring it
(07:46):
back to the group and kind ofre-explore it.
But there's so much that comesup in individual therapy that
even if your therapist is reallyspecialized in the area of
divorce, it's still going to beso different than coming from a
person that's in it.
That community of being withpeople who are in it with you,
they get it.
They get that you are feelingsuch and such on that day,
(08:08):
right?
That, you know, this day makesyou feel this.
It's just they they get itbecause they're in it with you
is a really differentexperience.
Oftentimes people will say, Noone in my family has been
divorced.
No one in my friend group hasbeen divorced.
Or if they have, it's been solong.
Yep.
Or so different of a divorcethat they don't really get why
it's hard for me.
(08:28):
And so being with a community ofpeople that really get it and
are getting the complexities ofthose higher conflict divorces
is just different.
It's different.
SPEAKER_01 (08:39):
When I think you and I hear this theme all the time,
but isolation, loneliness, younobody really gets it, or
everybody I knew we weremarried, or we were it was a
shared group, and now I don'thave that group.
The experience of being alonewhen you start working with this
group, you do see it kind ofeverywhere.
(09:01):
But I think about like ourfriendship group and our friends
and things like that, you know,you just might not be in a group
that there that that's happened.
I'm really curious why this wasof interest technically, and
just like what drew you, becauseI find people are not usually
doing this work without a littlebit of their own story in it.
(09:21):
Just kind of curious what drewyou to like women in divorce and
also this word recovery.
I think recovery is such an umintentional choice of words.
And so I'm I'm very curiousabout that.
It was like four questions inone, but go.
Yeah, I'm gonna do my best.
That was that was a lot ofquestions.
(09:41):
Okay, so this group.
SPEAKER_00 (09:43):
Yeah.
Why this?
So I started out with a group,honestly, because I love groups.
I had really excellent trainingwhen I was on internship doing
process groups, a co-ed processgroup that was more general in
nature, and a trauma group forwomen.
SPEAKER_02 (10:00):
And I loved it.
SPEAKER_00 (10:00):
I just loved it, loved it.
Anywhere I could do a group, Itried to do a group.
Moving back to Denver and goinginto private practice at that,
really wanted to get a groupgoing.
And at the time, my specialtywas just working with
post-relationship growth andrecovery.
That was really my niche wasdating, divorce, recovery.
And to do a group for likebreakup and divorce recovery,
(10:26):
and realized that there reallywasn't one offered in Denver
that wasn't at a church.
They might want another option.
I mean, there were workbookmanual guided groups that were
very structured, but therewasn't anything that was more
supportive, process-oriented innature.
SPEAKER_01 (10:44):
Well, I just wanted to interrupt really quick and
have you clarify what processgroups really are versus like
psychoeducational groups, whichI do think are offered more
readily.
SPEAKER_00 (10:57):
Yes.
I'll start withpsychoeducational.
So psychoeducational is you workusually from a workbook.
The facilitator is usually incharge of disseminating the
information.
You go in some order.
There might be some sharing orsome reflection, some journaling
between the groups, but therereally isn't a lot of
cross-talking processing withother people, right?
(11:21):
Um a support group is notusually done from a manual or a
guided book, but sometimes itcan be run by a therapist, but
often can just be run by someonewho's been through the group and
has no formal training.
Umed can be with some trainingor more training, but there's
(11:42):
also not requirements aroundtraining.
unknown (11:44):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (11:45):
And then there's process-oriented groups or
process groups are the real dealwhere where there's no agenda,
there's no shared reason whypeople come.
It's really just what are welearning from each other about
ourselves coming to the group?
And then the process-oriented,it's kind of a spin-off of that,
where there might be a reasonyou're coming to the group, such
(12:06):
as divorce, divorce recovery.
It's run by someone who'strained, hopefully who's
licensed as well, who has sometraining in how to facilitate
therapy groups.
It's a contained group, and thetype of sharing is facilitated
by the facilitator.
Boundaries and structures howyou know.
SPEAKER_01 (12:26):
Yeah, and confidentiality and all the
things, right?
It's a much my experience inrunning and observing kind of
all different types of groups isif it's done well, there seems
to be a lot more emotionalsafety in a group like that.
You know, because you know thethe facilitator is gonna step in
or call somebody on if they'rebeing really difficult.
(12:50):
You learn about other people ina deeper way.
There's there's more safety andvulnerability.
Yeah.
So you loved that.
You were like, I like that juicyprocessy.
SPEAKER_00 (13:00):
I love that.
Oh, that's just the that's theexciting and growth-worthy stuff
that I love.
That was what I thought drew meto the group.
Yeah.
I'm also a child of divorce, um,an adult child of divorce.
And so over the years, it becameclear that there was maybe
another reason I got called.
(13:23):
Yeah, I was like, oh, I justhappened to work with kids in
this area.
unknown (13:27):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (13:28):
But it just kind of like started, and then it was,
oh, but this is where I'mlanding, and I'm landing here
for probably a reason.
SPEAKER_02 (13:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:35):
So um, you know, seeing your family go through
that, how they navigate it, howit impacts kids at different
ages, how it affects kids thatcan learn how to be resilient
and yet still deal with it as anadult.
It's a kind of a unique role.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (13:52):
To be there for other it must be really moving
and incredible to kind of walkwith people recovery.
This is Dr.
Royster coming in to you to letyou know, my wonderful
listeners, that we've made somereally exciting changes to the
kids' first co-parenting system.
Because co-parenting with adifficult access app is
(14:15):
something that you go through aprogram and you come out the
other side and it just magicallyworks.
That's not how this works,unfortunately.
And so we revamped the kids'first co-parenting system.
Come in and get your first monthand all the lessons again.
You can work as many months asyou can protect and check out
(14:45):
the house to come and join us toget the support.
I know that you need it.
We are here for you.
We're inside the community.
We've made it a membership sothat it can be so much more
accessible and affordable formobs just like you.
Join us today.
SPEAKER_00 (15:01):
Then when it became the divorce recovery group, it
it was really from a place ofempowerment that this isn't have
to be some mark on your life.
You can recover from this, youcan move forward, and you can
build a life that you want foryou, kids.
I think that's the the kind ofenergy I wanted to bring to it.
(15:22):
It was kind of an honor um tohave women call.
Um, I do work with men too, notas much, but do work with men
going through the divorce andother issues as well.
But women are the ones that arein the group.
And for them to be in the thickof the grief and being like, how
(15:42):
am I ever going to get throughthis?
How am I ever going to be okayagain?
And having the the knowledgethat I see people through this
and have for over a decade,seeing them get to the other
side and being like, oh, okay.
Okay.
So being able to say it's notgonna feel like this now, but in
(16:06):
a year you're gonna be in adifferent place.
Yeah.
Not saying it's gonna be perfectand everything's resolved and
everything's unky dory, butyou're gonna be in a different
place.
SPEAKER_01 (16:14):
Yeah.
We do have that unique gift, Ithink, and I think you do this
very well of I can hold the hopefor a little while that it won't
always be this bad.
You know?
You mentioned grief, and griefwas something I wanted to ask
you about.
Yeah.
How do you conceptualize thegrief around divorce and what
(16:35):
helps and what makes it harder?
SPEAKER_00 (16:37):
You know, grief is a really normal part of the
process.
And most people don't think ofgrief in relationship to things
that aren't death.
I was just gonna say that.
Like if it's not death, but itis very much like a death.
Yeah, it is a death of amarriage.
SPEAKER_01 (16:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:55):
Or relationship is a death of a future together,
dreams you had, all the things,right?
Thinking of it as a death, Ithink does help people get
there.
But even if you don't think ofit that way, it is just still
grief.
And grief looks like sadness andloneliness and depression and
not being able to do the normalthings you normally can do as
(17:16):
easily because you're sloweddown.
It just everything's a littleharder.
Being able to be with thosefeelings to say, Yep, this is
the grief coming up, andallowing yourself to feel the
grief, to acknowledge it, likethat makes sense that I'm
feeling this grief.
My whole life is changing.
My family's life is whole ischanging.
Our family is gonna always lookdifferent from here on forward.
(17:37):
That's a grief.
SPEAKER_01 (17:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:39):
And so being with it, acknowledging it.
And then, you know, what do Ineed to do with it?
SPEAKER_01 (17:45):
Yes.
Well, and that's the hard thingabout grief in particular is
one, it's not linear.
Things like things that youthink are gonna be okay aren't.
unknown (17:55):
No.
SPEAKER_01 (17:56):
And things that you're like, I'm gonna be fine
for this anniversary or birthdayor whatever it is.
You're not, you know.
And so it doesn't come inpredictable ways.
Speaks right up on you.
It really does.
And what do you do with it?
I have always struggled withgrief because I'm just like,
okay, I gotta get through this.
(18:17):
Like, I gotta get through thegrief.
Like somehow you can speed itup.
It doesn't work that way.
It doesn't work that way.
SPEAKER_00 (18:24):
It doesn't.
And I would say, even though I'mthinking about there's only a
12-week commitment, initialcommitment to the group, and
then you're welcome to continueafter that.
I really feel like the sweetspot for a lot of women being in
the group is just over a year.
Interesting or or I'll back thatup.
(18:49):
A year from separation.
This is for only people thatcome right after the separation.
And then they're going throughall the stuff that comes up in
the first year.
And then the whole all theholidays, right?
Yeah.
And then they get past theanniversary of the separation.
And then sometimes it you'repost-decree by then, but
sometimes you're really not,right?
(19:10):
And probably the lot of the highconflict divorces we both yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:13):
But that's so funny.
Yeah.
I wish lots of timespost-decree, and we're still
still going through conflictstuff.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:22):
And I all historically have had women in
the group for much longer thanthat.
The point being is you'regetting through those markers
that just automatically bringthat grief up in a different
way.
That at least you have thesupport through those things.
Now, someone coming inpost-decree, it's still gonna
look different.
But I feel like, you know,having an awareness, and by then
(19:46):
you probably have more of anawareness than right after
separation, that it's gonna takea while and it's not in the year
and the grief is gonna pop up atsome unexpected times.
SPEAKER_01 (19:56):
Do you think that there are factors that make, I
guess just in your experience,that make it harder?
As clinicians, we do see peoplethat sort of get stuck in grief
and then it becomes somethingbigger, might trigger depression
or some some kind of biggerissues.
Where do you see women getstuck?
(20:18):
Do you think it's those highconflict people?
SPEAKER_00 (20:20):
Yeah, we say all.
The reasons why they call isthey've got the they're running
into the difficulties.
They can't kind of get somethingunder their feet.
It's usually that it wasn'ttheir choice.
And by that I mean like it's notnecessarily that they didn't
initiate, but they wish theydidn't have to initiate.
So it could be they they didn'tinitiate that it was like a
(20:41):
surprise, betrayal, out of theblue.
Somebody changed course.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Someone changed course, my lifejust got flipped upside down, I
didn't see this coming, kind ofthing.
Or it could be we've been tryingfor so many years, and I've
tried so hard to make this work,and I didn't want it to get to
this place, and there's nothingI can do to make this better,
(21:02):
and that really is so hard.
SPEAKER_01 (21:05):
Um like a powerlessness, like almost a
lack of agency, I think.
SPEAKER_00 (21:11):
Yeah, absolutely.
When they don't have agency overdoing it, but then at the same
time, sometimes the hard part isthat everyone thinks your ex is
just this perfect person orreally great person and you know
a different side, and thenyou're dealing with the guilt of
I just blew up my family, orthat's what it feels like.
(21:32):
It's that too.
But that's there's I mean,there's so much too many layers
over there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Typically, when there's more ofa complicated grief to bring it
back to grief, there's somecomplicated factors.
This isn't two amical peopleamicable partners that came to
terms with the fact that they'renot a good match or they felt
(21:53):
love, you know.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (21:54):
That's that's not these are not the people, you
know.
I have a a friend that doesn'tsuper love their, I mean,
they're not, they're nottogether, right?
Like hasn't loved some of thethings they've done, right?
But this person will talk aboutsitting down at the kitchen
table and like going throughtheir divorce, like working out
(22:15):
the kind of contract they weregonna have.
And that just that's just notthe people I work with.
Like that just blows my mind.
SPEAKER_00 (22:24):
I imagine a very small percentage.
Yeah, like obviously, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (22:29):
Like you're still gonna have grief in that.
It's still gonna be difficult.
It's still gonna trigger you andbring up hard things.
But it does feel justqualitatively different.
I see a lot of guilt and shamein this population.
How do you see that?
What do you see and how do youwork with that, Dr.
SPEAKER_00 (22:49):
Hick?
It's challenging.
SPEAKER_01 (22:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:52):
Because the shame, if it's there, has been there
for a long time.
Ooh, say more.
Well, shame usually startsreally young.
SPEAKER_01 (23:02):
Yeah, it does.
And then it does grows.
SPEAKER_00 (23:05):
And then it grows.
Guilt doesn't necessarily startvery young.
But it grows basis when you'renot really living in alignment
with with your values.
Um shame is I am bad, guilt issome choice.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So shame typically we see morewhen there's been some sort of
high conflict, manipulation,abuse, um, whether that's
(23:29):
emotional, physical, financial,sexual abuse, right?
Yeah.
The shame response is much morecommon.
I've done something I didn't doI didn't do enough to fix this.
If only I had been better at X,Y, and Z, then.
And that that's that's hard,that's hard work.
(23:49):
That's long work.
SPEAKER_01 (23:51):
Yeah, I find shame much harder both in myself and
my clinical work, just broadlyspeaking, broad strokes, not
even in divorce world.
Shame is just a lot harder towork with.
Yeah.
It's a lot harder to tackle.
There's it's a journey torecognize it, and then it's a
journey to challenge it, andthen it's a journey to believe
(24:14):
those challenges.
SPEAKER_00 (24:15):
Right, right.
And it's the really cool partand the really hard part about
seeing how it shows up in gr agroup of women is that when they
feel safe enough to share themost vulnerable parts.
Maybe the, you know, the themessy, yucky parts of what
happened in their marriage, andthey can be seen by others in
(24:38):
the group without the look ofyou did something, you're you're
you actually are to blame here.
SPEAKER_01 (24:45):
Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00 (24:46):
When that when they don't judgment on everyone
else's face and they instead seewarm, loving, receptive eyes and
get a warm, loving, receptiveresponse to it, it starts the
work.
Yeah, I guess.
SPEAKER_01 (24:59):
Yeah, because you know, what is that line Brene
Brown always says, shame can'tsurvive in the light, right?
But you need a light to yeah, Ican imagine.
I mean, I think about some of myfriendships and my relationships
and my community and howpowerful it is when you do share
something that you feel ashamedof or have shame around.
(25:23):
And the people that love youjust say, like, well, yeah, you
were surviving, or you weremaking a very difficult
decision, or that makes sense,or I would have done that too,
or that it's facilitated to beso supportive like that is such
a gift, Dr.
Chris.
It's just really such a gift.
I wonder what you see as some ofthe hot spots, the thing, the
(25:47):
like trouble spots, the areaswhere people really struggle.
And part of the reason I'mthinking about this is new
partners has been a theme for melately.
And I actually try to find someresources on introducing new
partners to kids and just kindof how to navigate that.
Yeah.
(26:08):
And had a very hard time findinganybody that would really had a
hard time finding podcasts, Ihad a hard time finding books.
It's not, I don't know.
So for me, that would be a hotspot that I can imagine.
But what are some of the thingsyou see?
I don't know, making thingstrouble spots, common trouble
(26:29):
spots, I guess, in this recoveryprocess.
SPEAKER_00 (26:32):
Yeah, I think in a similar vein as introducing new
partners is really the broaderdifficulty of not having control
over what's happening.
SPEAKER_01 (26:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:43):
Not having control over what time they go to bed,
your kids, not having controlover screen usage, not having
control over or say in anynumber of things, including how
and when a new partner getsintroduced and to what extent
and who it is.
And who it is.
Yes.
And certainly in the separationagreement, you can set with your
(27:08):
co-parent some expectations, butwe all know that is only as good
as people are willing to follow.
It's a like a friendly handshakekind of deal in some respects
with that.
And it doesn't always getcarried out.
Those are really hard becausewhen a parent who has been
really involved in the parentingchoices they've made so far with
(27:30):
their kids are hearing about allthe things going on at the other
house and they don't havecontrol.
unknown (27:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:36):
It's really, really hard.
SPEAKER_01 (27:38):
I I mean, I I see that quite often.
And, you know, there's a line.
There are some things that whenyou hear about it's like, yep,
we're not doing that.
Like that's very clearly, I knowthe steps to take, I know how to
do this.
But I think it's the smallerstuff that actually is really I
think bedtime's like such a goodexclamation.
Or like sugar, yes, or junkfood, or are we late to school
(28:03):
every day?
Like you're not gonna file amotion about you can't, you can,
but and a lawyer will happilytake your money, but a judge
isn't gonna, they're not gonnalove that.
SPEAKER_00 (28:15):
Spend your time wrapped up in court forevermore.
So you have to be willing toknow what's the hill to die on.
SPEAKER_01 (28:22):
I know.
And that is a hard, that's a bigask.
It's a big ask.
And it, you know, I talk withmoms a lot.
Like it sounds so easy to justbe like, you can only control
what happens in your home.
And I teach on that, and that'strue, right?
SPEAKER_00 (28:37):
Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (28:38):
But my goodness, is that hard to put into practice?
SPEAKER_00 (28:42):
It is, it really is.
It's I you know, that's that'sprobably the biggest next to the
death of the marriage, like thebiggest grief is like I'm not
gonna have a say so.
SPEAKER_01 (28:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (28:56):
And these things feel really important.
SPEAKER_01 (28:58):
Or I feel like my child does best when sometimes
it comes from just reallywell-intentioned.
You know, I was thinking aboutthis the other day and I was
talking about nesting and howsome people do nesting, and I I
had like a little reminder, evenwhen you're in the same home,
bedtime looks differentdepending on what parent is
(29:20):
doing it.
And you might have the samebedtime routine at the same
time, but they're it's more likesiblings than twins.
And I find moms post-separationget real wrapped up in things
need to be twins.
Yeah.
But they won't, babe.
Like they won't, even whenyou're in the same house.
SPEAKER_00 (29:43):
But it makes but it makes sense that the poll to
make things as the same as youpossibly can out of wanting to
protect your kids from grief andtrauma and change and
transition, like that pull to belike.
Like I feel so awful about whatmy kids are having to go through
and what or what I put themthrough or what we're putting
(30:06):
them through, right?
SPEAKER_01 (30:07):
Yeah.
And we're right back to guilt,guilt and shame.
I see that go a bunch ofdifferent ways.
I think sometimes there's a overcontrolling that happens.
I think sometimes there's apassiveness or an
overcompensating sometimes.
Like, well, you know, we we didthis horrible thing to you,
(30:27):
which not my, not the words Iwould choose.
And so, you know, who reallycares if you go to bed late?
I don't know that that'sconscious, but I do think it
happens.
Oh yeah.
Right?
Yep.
Or there's this weird sort ofdynamic, especially around
bedtime, of, well, that's great.
You got to stay up late overthere, but now I get to deal
(30:49):
with an overtired kid that'sfalling apart and it's
transition day.
Right.
Then you fire off a message andthings just go from there.
Keep escalating.
I mean, this is hard stuff.
I mean, this is not this is noteasy work.
(32:09):
How do you keep the group frombecoming venti?
SPEAKER_00 (32:14):
Because I I actually think that venting is
therapeutic when done inboundaried ways.
Sometimes the space, you know,that someone needs to have in
the group or in individualtherapy is just I need to get it
all out because I can't say thisto anybody else.
(32:36):
And I need to say this.
I need to say it and havesomeone just like hold it for
me.
SPEAKER_01 (32:42):
Witness it.
SPEAKER_00 (32:42):
Witness it.
And for so many people that havebeen in high conflict marriages,
that is never something thatthey've had.
I know.
Right?
They have not had the being ableto the safety.
So I do think that there istherapeutic value to being able
to share it all and be like,okay, I think I got it all out.
(33:04):
And members go, okay, so whenyou said this, it made me think
of that.
Or wow, you really you werereally strong when you did that.
Did you did you notice that?
So it's kind of both.
Like if the whole group is justventing, that's it's gonna be
less productive.
SPEAKER_01 (33:22):
Um yeah, I mean, I think I think the key that
you're talking about is theboundaried way to do it and the
emotional safety and thecloseness.
Because if one person just comesin and leaves the group the week
after and they kind of justtrauma dumped all over
everybody, or just like my ex issuch a jerk, la la la, like
(33:45):
that's not productive, it's nothelpful.
Yeah.
But I think there are spaces andtimes when just like you said,
like you need to get it out, youneed to process, you need to say
things you have never said andhave the safety of it.
I was gonna say I see this a lotwith like Facebook groups.
It's just like a person soterrible.
And I'm like, let's just get offthe keyboards, you know?
(34:08):
Yeah, this isn't helpinganybody.
We're staying stuck in like, butit's because there's anonymity.
It's because there's not a pushtowards like reflecting on your
peace and holding the grief andmoving into healing and all of
the beautiful things your groupdoes.
SPEAKER_00 (34:24):
And when people are in the beginning phases or hard
moments, like so they may not bethe beginning phase, but like
they had a really unproductivemediation, they just need to
come in there and dump, right?
They need to be like, dude, ohmy god, you need to hear that.
Believe it.
You will not believe this.
And in the first few groups thatsomeone, assuming they're coming
(34:45):
in like kind of fresh, messymiddle part of the stage of the
divorce process, do they need tojust get it out?
Because they've been holding onto all the story and they've
been ignoring parts of theirstory and pushing away parts of
the story that they just likefinally it just comes out and it
floods.
SPEAKER_01 (35:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:04):
And so the group is really good at holding space for
knowing I was there once.
Oh, yep, I I know where she'sat.
She needs to be here.
She's just coming to terms withall of it.
SPEAKER_01 (35:17):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (35:18):
And then once they kind of move through that with
safety and being reflected, youknow, back to then they can
start to look at it and start tolook at the narrative.
Narrative and words are a reallyimportant theme in the group.
It's that everyone starts thegroup by telling their story.
So the existing members telltheir story, what brought them
(35:39):
to the group, what they'vegained from the group, what they
hope to still gain from thegroup.
And then the new members get achance to do their story.
And then every time a new membercomes into the group, they t
they have a chance to sharetheir story again.
And what is really, really neatis that they notice different
things about their story eachtime they tell their story.
(36:00):
They notice so beautiful.
I didn't mention that thingbecause it doesn't bother me
anymore.
Or I did mention that new thingbecause I didn't even remember
that that had happened when Ifirst told my story.
They see different parts andthey get to be witnessed by the
group in doing so.
Narrative is a really importantpart of the group because you do
(36:23):
need to like hear what yournarrative is and hear how it
changes over time as you learn.
SPEAKER_01 (36:30):
Yeah.
It's all these very subtle butintentional things that you've
weaved in.
That's probably a decent blendof your skill as a psychologist,
which I happen to know is quitehigh.
Also, just your intentionalityof it and the experience of
doing it for so long and seeingwhat women need.
Does it run all the time?
(36:52):
Yep.
And then you open it and closeit.
SPEAKER_00 (36:55):
Yeah.
Just when the group's full, weclose it.
I continue to gather referrals,and then when there's a spot
open, we get them started.
You are in the group for 12weeks or more.
Usually people are in forlonger, but to get to your
point, if you come in there dumpand then you don't come back the
next week, everyone's gonna belike reeling.
Like, did I say something?
Was it me?
(37:16):
Was I too much?
SPEAKER_01 (37:17):
So it's I really take that commitment very
seriously to see if they'regonna be able to like hang with
it, even what I want to end onjust one beautiful kind of
question before I let you gotoday.
And you and I could talkforever.
In fact, we planned acontingency plan to talk longer
if we needed.
And we will.
I will see you and we will talkand we will have coffee and all
(37:39):
the things we do.
One message.
If you could give one message toa mom, or maybe not a mom, but a
mom, since we, you know, it isthe kids first podcast.
Um just freshly into herrecovery.
SPEAKER_00 (37:55):
What would you tell her?
It's just like this is gonna bea journey.
And wherever you are starting,wherever you're starting, it
might look different from thenext person.
That is okay.
Everyone's on their own journeyand you'll get there, and it
won't make sense to you now.
But hang with it, do the work.
(38:16):
You will be different in a year,you will be different in a year
after that.
You'll be different next month,really.
But uh prepare for the fall likeI used used to pre-kids, did
14ers.
I haven't done it in a while,but um lots of metaphors from
(38:37):
hiking, right?
And the idea of a false summitwhere you think I'm almost to
the top, and then you get tothat top and you realize it was
a false summit and it reallywasn't the top, and you've got a
lot another leg to go isdefeating.
And yet, like that is so if youprepare, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (38:57):
You want to lay down on the trail and cry, but you
really have to keep going.
You do, really do.
SPEAKER_00 (39:03):
Um, but something in you keeps you going, and the way
back down is a lot easier too.
But prepare for those falsesummits, prepare that it's gonna
be long, but each time you'regonna you're gonna get there
more and more.
You're gonna put more skillstogether and you're like your
kids easier.
Yeah, yeah.
Like all the work that you dowith with clients, like feels
(39:26):
hard to communicate differentlyright now.
And then it's gonna feel easierat some point.
It's gonna feel like, oh, I justknow how to do this.
SPEAKER_01 (39:33):
And similar to what you said, it feels very
different in a month, in sixmonths, in one year, in five
years.
But you do, I mean, especiallywhen you have kids together, you
have to think in the long term.
How are you gonna react withthis person when you're sitting
at your kid's wedding?
All right, my dear.
Well, I am so grateful for yourtime and for your beautiful work
(39:53):
with all of these women.
You're such a gift to us and toour community.
And we I love sharing this workwith you and I love sharing life
and all the things with you.
So, for my listeners, we aregoing to have show notes that
will have links to Dr.
Hicks' work and where you canfind her.
(40:16):
If you ever have any concernsabout that, you can also reach
out to me directly because Irefer to her all the time.
I have flyers like literallysitting on my desk all the time.
So very happy to connect you forher.
She is on Instagram at theCenter for Shared Insight, and
her website isCenterforSharedInsight.com.
We are so grateful to have youhere.
(40:36):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having meon.
Wonderful.
Thanks so much for listening tothis episode of Kids First
Co-Parenting.
The best way you can support theshow is by following, rating,
and reviewing wherever youlisten to podcasts, and by
sharing it with another mom whocould use the support.
You can also connect with me onInstagram and Facebook at Learn
(40:59):
with Little House, where I sharedaily tips and encouragement for
moms raising kids through highconflict awards.
And if you're ready to go deepand get more tools, scripts,
personalized support, andcoaching, come join us inside
the Kids First co-parentingcommunity.
You'll find the details atLearnwithLittlehouse.com.
Until next time, remember, yourkids don't need to be perfect.
(41:22):
They just need you to be steadyand grounded, and as always, to
put them first.
Thanks for being here.
Welcome to the Kids First Co-Parenting Podcast, the
podcast for smart, intentional,millennial moms raising
resilient kids after separationand divorce.
I'm Dr.
Carolyn Royster, a childpsychologist coach, and a mom.
After thousands of therapy hourswith kids caught in the middle
of high-conflict households, I'mhere to help moms like you do it
(00:29):
differently.
From peaceful co-parenting tototal chaos, I've got you.
Here we talk boundaries,regulation, and how to raise a
great kid, even if your accessbeyond difficult.
We blend science with real life,and as always, focus where it
matters on raising great kids.
This is Kids First Co-Parenting.
(00:54):
Dr.
Kristen Hick is a licensedclinical psychologist
specializing in healing,strengthening, and transforming
intergenerational patterns tohelp individuals create the
relationships they desire, bothwith themselves and others in
their lives.
Dr.
Hick's experience includesdating and divorce recovery,
(01:15):
trauma and abuse healing, andsupporting women's perenatal and
reproductive health journeys.
She integrates EMDR, internalfamily systems, and
attachment-informed treatmentmethods into her work.
A highlight of Dr.
Hicks Week is facilitating adivorce recovery group for women
navigating and recovering fromlegal separation and divorce.
(01:37):
She has been leading thisprocess-oriented therapy group
since 2014, offering support towomen divorcing from both same
and opposite sex partners.
This group helps participantscope with the grief and the
emotional overwhelm, navigateco-parenting challenges,
understand relational patterns,rebuild their identity and
confidence, and create afulfilling life after their
(02:01):
divorce.
With over 20 years of experiencein the field, Dr.
Hick, alongside her therapy dogBarley, who is so stinking cute,
by the way, providescompassionate and skilled
therapeutic care for adults fromall walks of life.
I would love to welcome my dearfriend, colleague, and clinical
psychologist, Dr.
(02:21):
Kristen Hick.
Welcome, Dr.
Hick.
I'm so happy you're here.
SPEAKER_00 (02:25):
Yes, likewise.
I'm happy to be here finally.
SPEAKER_01 (02:28):
Yeah, my friend and colleague.
It's gonna be good to talk.
I said friend first because ofcourse.
Well, I really wanted to haveyou on the show because we have
a lot of overlap.
We have a lot of common areas offocus, I guess.
In particular, your divorcerecovery group is I refer to
(02:51):
that all the time.
SPEAKER_02 (02:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:52):
Because I my in the coaching program, I'm not doing
therapy.
And so I think this is a reallyhelpful resource.
So maybe we can just start withthat.
Tell us a little bit about whatthe group is, how did it start?
Who's it for?
SPEAKER_00 (03:06):
Yeah.
Just go there.
Um it's a divorce recovery groupand it's a process-oriented
group.
Most people think of therapygroups as support groups, and
this is a little bit different.
It goes into a lot more depthand it gets into the
interactions between memberswithin the group are explored
(03:28):
because that's reflective ofmaybe how you do things on the
outside too.
Okay.
So everyone in the group ismoving through or recovering
from the experience of divorce.
So it's a little bit differentthan a just a normal
run-of-the-mill general processgroup.
You're processing something veryspecific, but then also adding
(03:49):
the between member reactions ofyou said this when someone was
talking about this.
What did that bring up for you?
So it goes a little bit deeperthan just a support group, but
there's a lot of support there.
SPEAKER_01 (04:00):
Do you have a topic each week?
Or how does that do you justlike whatever has come up for
you this week, and then youguide people along?
SPEAKER_00 (04:10):
So we don't have a topic, but what I would say to
people who are interested in thegroup is that we get to all the
topics eventually.
We're gonna talk aboutboundaries, we're gonna talk
about grief, we're gonna talkabout co-parenting, we're gonna
talk about how to prep, notnecessarily legally prep for
mediation in court, but like howto emotionally get yourself
ready and what are you doing toget yourself there?
(04:32):
We talk about betrayal.
We talk about dating after Yeah.
So we talk about so manydifferent topics, but they come
up, they just come up naturally.
SPEAKER_01 (04:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:42):
So people they come into the group, we check in, we
just start with checking in withevery single person.
Um, and it happens the same wayevery time, which is a point of
like grounding people in thegroup, where are they at in
their week, helping them sit andreflect on what it is they need
from the group, and then we kindof go there.
Sometimes it's I need helpfiguring out whether I'm right
(05:05):
to think I want to switch myattorney that I'm having some
issues and I don't know ifthat's okay to do and how hard
that might be.
Or I am really challenged withhow to respond to my co-parents
in a way that's not going toinflame things.
Or I feel like saying this, butI know I should say this, so I
need some some help.
Or I'm just really strugglingwith how alone I feel.
(05:27):
We're getting to like all of it,but it comes up naturally based
on what people are goingthrough.
SPEAKER_01 (05:32):
Yeah.
And, you know, this is, I think,one of the kind of symbiotic
dynamics that you and I have isthat I sometimes we have a
little overlap, right?
Obviously, I'm more there'salways kids involved with the
people I work with.
And you don't necessarily haveto have kids involved as you say
it's more common that peoplehave kids when they come to the
(05:53):
group, but absolutely not.
It's yeah.
And I think there's this piecethat I always talk about with my
moms is you know, I can coachyou and teach you around what to
say in response to that comment,how to actually handle it.
Your therapist or your groupmembers will teach you why it
(06:14):
triggered you and explore thatand like go deeper into those
feelings in a way that is notappropriate for coaching.
SPEAKER_00 (06:23):
Yes, that's a great distinction between it.
I'm not saying what to say.
I'm really the other groupmember shouldn't be saying you
should say this.
Right.
But how what comes up from youwhen you want to say that?
Right.
Um what is that usual patternfor you?
Why is it hard to say that otherthing?
Right.
Um, that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_01 (06:44):
And sometimes that's where I get a little stuck,
right?
Is because in my mind, there'skind of a clear best response.
And sometimes when people don'tdo that, you're like, there's
something else happening here,and I need you to explore why
you are not listening.
Uh-huh.
(07:04):
So why what do you think isspecial about it being in a
group as opposed to, you know, alot of my moms have individual
therapists and I think they do abeautiful job, but why would
someone be more a fit for likethe group versus individual?
Or do you say both?
What do you what do you thinkabout that?
SPEAKER_00 (07:24):
I really encourage both.
It's not mandatory for a varietyof reasons because sometimes
it's not even financiallypossible to do both.
Yes, girl.
So it's an expensive season.
Yeah.
So many different ways.
I strongly encourage people tobe doing both at the same time
because there's so much thatcomes up in the group that
they're going to want to takeback to their individual
therapist to process a littlebit more or to then bring it
(07:46):
back to the group and kind ofre-explore it.
But there's so much that comesup in individual therapy that
even if your therapist is reallyspecialized in the area of
divorce, it's still going to beso different than coming from a
person that's in it.
That community of being withpeople who are in it with you,
they get it.
They get that you are feelingsuch and such on that day,
(08:08):
right?
That, you know, this day makesyou feel this.
It's just they they get itbecause they're in it with you
is a really differentexperience.
Oftentimes people will say, Noone in my family has been
divorced.
No one in my friend group hasbeen divorced.
Or if they have, it's been solong.
Yep.
Or so different of a divorcethat they don't really get why
it's hard for me.
(08:28):
And so being with a community ofpeople that really get it and
are getting the complexities ofthose higher conflict divorces
is just different.
It's different.
SPEAKER_01 (08:39):
When I think you and I hear this theme all the time,
but isolation, loneliness, younobody really gets it, or
everybody I knew we weremarried, or we were it was a
shared group, and now I don'thave that group.
The experience of being alonewhen you start working with this
group, you do see it kind ofeverywhere.
(09:01):
But I think about like ourfriendship group and our friends
and things like that, you know,you just might not be in a group
that there that that's happened.
I'm really curious why this wasof interest technically, and
just like what drew you, becauseI find people are not usually
doing this work without a littlebit of their own story in it.
(09:21):
Just kind of curious what drewyou to like women in divorce and
also this word recovery.
I think recovery is such an umintentional choice of words.
And so I'm I'm very curiousabout that.
It was like four questions inone, but go.
Yeah, I'm gonna do my best.
That was that was a lot ofquestions.
(09:41):
Okay, so this group.
SPEAKER_00 (09:43):
Yeah.
Why this?
So I started out with a group,honestly, because I love groups.
I had really excellent trainingwhen I was on internship doing
process groups, a co-ed processgroup that was more general in
nature, and a trauma group forwomen.
SPEAKER_02 (10:00):
And I loved it.
SPEAKER_00 (10:00):
I just loved it, loved it.
Anywhere I could do a group, Itried to do a group.
Moving back to Denver and goinginto private practice at that,
really wanted to get a groupgoing.
And at the time, my specialtywas just working with
post-relationship growth andrecovery.
That was really my niche wasdating, divorce, recovery.
And to do a group for likebreakup and divorce recovery,
(10:26):
and realized that there reallywasn't one offered in Denver
that wasn't at a church.
They might want another option.
I mean, there were workbookmanual guided groups that were
very structured, but therewasn't anything that was more
supportive, process-oriented innature.
SPEAKER_01 (10:44):
Well, I just wanted to interrupt really quick and
have you clarify what processgroups really are versus like
psychoeducational groups, whichI do think are offered more
readily.
SPEAKER_00 (10:57):
Yes.
I'll start withpsychoeducational.
So psychoeducational is you workusually from a workbook.
The facilitator is usually incharge of disseminating the
information.
You go in some order.
There might be some sharing orsome reflection, some journaling
between the groups, but therereally isn't a lot of
cross-talking processing withother people, right?
(11:21):
Um a support group is notusually done from a manual or a
guided book, but sometimes itcan be run by a therapist, but
often can just be run by someonewho's been through the group and
has no formal training.
Umed can be with some trainingor more training, but there's
(11:42):
also not requirements aroundtraining.
unknown (11:44):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (11:45):
And then there's process-oriented groups or
process groups are the real dealwhere where there's no agenda,
there's no shared reason whypeople come.
It's really just what are welearning from each other about
ourselves coming to the group?
And then the process-oriented,it's kind of a spin-off of that,
where there might be a reasonyou're coming to the group, such
(12:06):
as divorce, divorce recovery.
It's run by someone who'strained, hopefully who's
licensed as well, who has sometraining in how to facilitate
therapy groups.
It's a contained group, and thetype of sharing is facilitated
by the facilitator.
Boundaries and structures howyou know.
SPEAKER_01 (12:26):
Yeah, and confidentiality and all the
things, right?
It's a much my experience inrunning and observing kind of
all different types of groups isif it's done well, there seems
to be a lot more emotionalsafety in a group like that.
You know, because you know thethe facilitator is gonna step in
or call somebody on if they'rebeing really difficult.
(12:50):
You learn about other people ina deeper way.
There's there's more safety andvulnerability.
Yeah.
So you loved that.
You were like, I like that juicyprocessy.
SPEAKER_00 (13:00):
I love that.
Oh, that's just the that's theexciting and growth-worthy stuff
that I love.
That was what I thought drew meto the group.
Yeah.
I'm also a child of divorce, um,an adult child of divorce.
And so over the years, it becameclear that there was maybe
another reason I got called.
(13:23):
Yeah, I was like, oh, I justhappened to work with kids in
this area.
unknown (13:27):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (13:28):
But it just kind of like started, and then it was,
oh, but this is where I'mlanding, and I'm landing here
for probably a reason.
SPEAKER_02 (13:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:35):
So um, you know, seeing your family go through
that, how they navigate it, howit impacts kids at different
ages, how it affects kids thatcan learn how to be resilient
and yet still deal with it as anadult.
It's a kind of a unique role.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (13:52):
To be there for other it must be really moving
and incredible to kind of walkwith people recovery.
This is Dr.
Royster coming in to you to letyou know, my wonderful
listeners, that we've made somereally exciting changes to the
kids' first co-parenting system.
Because co-parenting with adifficult access app is
(14:15):
something that you go through aprogram and you come out the
other side and it just magicallyworks.
That's not how this works,unfortunately.
And so we revamped the kids'first co-parenting system.
Come in and get your first monthand all the lessons again.
You can work as many months asyou can protect and check out
(14:45):
the house to come and join us toget the support.
I know that you need it.
We are here for you.
We're inside the community.
We've made it a membership sothat it can be so much more
accessible and affordable formobs just like you.
Join us today.
SPEAKER_00 (15:01):
Then when it became the divorce recovery group, it
it was really from a place ofempowerment that this isn't have
to be some mark on your life.
You can recover from this, youcan move forward, and you can
build a life that you want foryou, kids.
I think that's the the kind ofenergy I wanted to bring to it.
(15:22):
It was kind of an honor um tohave women call.
Um, I do work with men too, notas much, but do work with men
going through the divorce andother issues as well.
But women are the ones that arein the group.
And for them to be in the thickof the grief and being like, how
(15:42):
am I ever going to get throughthis?
How am I ever going to be okayagain?
And having the the knowledgethat I see people through this
and have for over a decade,seeing them get to the other
side and being like, oh, okay.
Okay.
So being able to say it's notgonna feel like this now, but in
(16:06):
a year you're gonna be in adifferent place.
Yeah.
Not saying it's gonna be perfectand everything's resolved and
everything's unky dory, butyou're gonna be in a different
place.
SPEAKER_01 (16:14):
Yeah.
We do have that unique gift, Ithink, and I think you do this
very well of I can hold the hopefor a little while that it won't
always be this bad.
You know?
You mentioned grief, and griefwas something I wanted to ask
you about.
Yeah.
How do you conceptualize thegrief around divorce and what
(16:35):
helps and what makes it harder?
SPEAKER_00 (16:37):
You know, grief is a really normal part of the
process.
And most people don't think ofgrief in relationship to things
that aren't death.
I was just gonna say that.
Like if it's not death, but itis very much like a death.
Yeah, it is a death of amarriage.
SPEAKER_01 (16:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (16:55):
Or relationship is a death of a future together,
dreams you had, all the things,right?
Thinking of it as a death, Ithink does help people get
there.
But even if you don't think ofit that way, it is just still
grief.
And grief looks like sadness andloneliness and depression and
not being able to do the normalthings you normally can do as
(17:16):
easily because you're sloweddown.
It just everything's a littleharder.
Being able to be with thosefeelings to say, Yep, this is
the grief coming up, andallowing yourself to feel the
grief, to acknowledge it, likethat makes sense that I'm
feeling this grief.
My whole life is changing.
My family's life is whole ischanging.
Our family is gonna always lookdifferent from here on forward.
(17:37):
That's a grief.
SPEAKER_01 (17:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:39):
And so being with it, acknowledging it.
And then, you know, what do Ineed to do with it?
SPEAKER_01 (17:45):
Yes.
Well, and that's the hard thingabout grief in particular is
one, it's not linear.
Things like things that youthink are gonna be okay aren't.
unknown (17:55):
No.
SPEAKER_01 (17:56):
And things that you're like, I'm gonna be fine
for this anniversary or birthdayor whatever it is.
You're not, you know.
And so it doesn't come inpredictable ways.
Speaks right up on you.
It really does.
And what do you do with it?
I have always struggled withgrief because I'm just like,
okay, I gotta get through this.
(18:17):
Like, I gotta get through thegrief.
Like somehow you can speed itup.
It doesn't work that way.
It doesn't work that way.
SPEAKER_00 (18:24):
It doesn't.
And I would say, even though I'mthinking about there's only a
12-week commitment, initialcommitment to the group, and
then you're welcome to continueafter that.
I really feel like the sweetspot for a lot of women being in
the group is just over a year.
Interesting or or I'll back thatup.
(18:49):
A year from separation.
This is for only people thatcome right after the separation.
And then they're going throughall the stuff that comes up in
the first year.
And then the whole all theholidays, right?
Yeah.
And then they get past theanniversary of the separation.
And then sometimes it you'repost-decree by then, but
sometimes you're really not,right?
(19:10):
And probably the lot of the highconflict divorces we both yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (19:13):
But that's so funny.
Yeah.
I wish lots of timespost-decree, and we're still
still going through conflictstuff.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:22):
And I all historically have had women in
the group for much longer thanthat.
The point being is you'regetting through those markers
that just automatically bringthat grief up in a different
way.
That at least you have thesupport through those things.
Now, someone coming inpost-decree, it's still gonna
look different.
But I feel like, you know,having an awareness, and by then
(19:46):
you probably have more of anawareness than right after
separation, that it's gonna takea while and it's not in the year
and the grief is gonna pop up atsome unexpected times.
SPEAKER_01 (19:56):
Do you think that there are factors that make, I
guess just in your experience,that make it harder?
As clinicians, we do see peoplethat sort of get stuck in grief
and then it becomes somethingbigger, might trigger depression
or some some kind of biggerissues.
Where do you see women getstuck?
(20:18):
Do you think it's those highconflict people?
SPEAKER_00 (20:20):
Yeah, we say all.
The reasons why they call isthey've got the they're running
into the difficulties.
They can't kind of get somethingunder their feet.
It's usually that it wasn'ttheir choice.
And by that I mean like it's notnecessarily that they didn't
initiate, but they wish theydidn't have to initiate.
So it could be they they didn'tinitiate that it was like a
(20:41):
surprise, betrayal, out of theblue.
Somebody changed course.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Someone changed course, my lifejust got flipped upside down, I
didn't see this coming, kind ofthing.
Or it could be we've been tryingfor so many years, and I've
tried so hard to make this work,and I didn't want it to get to
this place, and there's nothingI can do to make this better,
(21:02):
and that really is so hard.
SPEAKER_01 (21:05):
Um like a powerlessness, like almost a
lack of agency, I think.
SPEAKER_00 (21:11):
Yeah, absolutely.
When they don't have agency overdoing it, but then at the same
time, sometimes the hard part isthat everyone thinks your ex is
just this perfect person orreally great person and you know
a different side, and thenyou're dealing with the guilt of
I just blew up my family, orthat's what it feels like.
(21:32):
It's that too.
But that's there's I mean,there's so much too many layers
over there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Typically, when there's more ofa complicated grief to bring it
back to grief, there's somecomplicated factors.
This isn't two amical peopleamicable partners that came to
terms with the fact that they'renot a good match or they felt
(21:53):
love, you know.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (21:54):
That's that's not these are not the people, you
know.
I have a a friend that doesn'tsuper love their, I mean,
they're not, they're nottogether, right?
Like hasn't loved some of thethings they've done, right?
But this person will talk aboutsitting down at the kitchen
table and like going throughtheir divorce, like working out
(22:15):
the kind of contract they weregonna have.
And that just that's just notthe people I work with.
Like that just blows my mind.
SPEAKER_00 (22:24):
I imagine a very small percentage.
Yeah, like obviously, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (22:29):
Like you're still gonna have grief in that.
It's still gonna be difficult.
It's still gonna trigger you andbring up hard things.
But it does feel justqualitatively different.
I see a lot of guilt and shamein this population.
How do you see that?
What do you see and how do youwork with that, Dr.
SPEAKER_00 (22:49):
Hick?
It's challenging.
SPEAKER_01 (22:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (22:52):
Because the shame, if it's there, has been there
for a long time.
Ooh, say more.
Well, shame usually startsreally young.
SPEAKER_01 (23:02):
Yeah, it does.
And then it does grows.
SPEAKER_00 (23:05):
And then it grows.
Guilt doesn't necessarily startvery young.
But it grows basis when you'renot really living in alignment
with with your values.
Um shame is I am bad, guilt issome choice.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So shame typically we see morewhen there's been some sort of
high conflict, manipulation,abuse, um, whether that's
(23:29):
emotional, physical, financial,sexual abuse, right?
Yeah.
The shame response is much morecommon.
I've done something I didn't doI didn't do enough to fix this.
If only I had been better at X,Y, and Z, then.
And that that's that's hard,that's hard work.
(23:49):
That's long work.
SPEAKER_01 (23:51):
Yeah, I find shame much harder both in myself and
my clinical work, just broadlyspeaking, broad strokes, not
even in divorce world.
Shame is just a lot harder towork with.
Yeah.
It's a lot harder to tackle.
There's it's a journey torecognize it, and then it's a
journey to challenge it, andthen it's a journey to believe
(24:14):
those challenges.
SPEAKER_00 (24:15):
Right, right.
And it's the really cool partand the really hard part about
seeing how it shows up in gr agroup of women is that when they
feel safe enough to share themost vulnerable parts.
Maybe the, you know, the themessy, yucky parts of what
happened in their marriage, andthey can be seen by others in
(24:38):
the group without the look ofyou did something, you're you're
you actually are to blame here.
SPEAKER_01 (24:45):
Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00 (24:46):
When that when they don't judgment on everyone
else's face and they instead seewarm, loving, receptive eyes and
get a warm, loving, receptiveresponse to it, it starts the
work.
Yeah, I guess.
SPEAKER_01 (24:59):
Yeah, because you know, what is that line Brene
Brown always says, shame can'tsurvive in the light, right?
But you need a light to yeah, Ican imagine.
I mean, I think about some of myfriendships and my relationships
and my community and howpowerful it is when you do share
something that you feel ashamedof or have shame around.
(25:23):
And the people that love youjust say, like, well, yeah, you
were surviving, or you weremaking a very difficult
decision, or that makes sense,or I would have done that too,
or that it's facilitated to beso supportive like that is such
a gift, Dr.
Chris.
It's just really such a gift.
I wonder what you see as some ofthe hot spots, the thing, the
(25:47):
like trouble spots, the areaswhere people really struggle.
And part of the reason I'mthinking about this is new
partners has been a theme for melately.
And I actually try to find someresources on introducing new
partners to kids and just kindof how to navigate that.
Yeah.
(26:08):
And had a very hard time findinganybody that would really had a
hard time finding podcasts, Ihad a hard time finding books.
It's not, I don't know.
So for me, that would be a hotspot that I can imagine.
But what are some of the thingsyou see?
I don't know, making thingstrouble spots, common trouble
(26:29):
spots, I guess, in this recoveryprocess.
SPEAKER_00 (26:32):
Yeah, I think in a similar vein as introducing new
partners is really the broaderdifficulty of not having control
over what's happening.
SPEAKER_01 (26:42):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (26:43):
Not having control over what time they go to bed,
your kids, not having controlover screen usage, not having
control over or say in anynumber of things, including how
and when a new partner getsintroduced and to what extent
and who it is.
And who it is.
Yes.
And certainly in the separationagreement, you can set with your
(27:08):
co-parent some expectations, butwe all know that is only as good
as people are willing to follow.
It's a like a friendly handshakekind of deal in some respects
with that.
And it doesn't always getcarried out.
Those are really hard becausewhen a parent who has been
really involved in the parentingchoices they've made so far with
(27:30):
their kids are hearing about allthe things going on at the other
house and they don't havecontrol.
unknown (27:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:36):
It's really, really hard.
SPEAKER_01 (27:38):
I I mean, I I see that quite often.
And, you know, there's a line.
There are some things that whenyou hear about it's like, yep,
we're not doing that.
Like that's very clearly, I knowthe steps to take, I know how to
do this.
But I think it's the smallerstuff that actually is really I
think bedtime's like such a goodexclamation.
Or like sugar, yes, or junkfood, or are we late to school
(28:03):
every day?
Like you're not gonna file amotion about you can't, you can,
but and a lawyer will happilytake your money, but a judge
isn't gonna, they're not gonnalove that.
SPEAKER_00 (28:15):
Spend your time wrapped up in court forevermore.
So you have to be willing toknow what's the hill to die on.
SPEAKER_01 (28:22):
I know.
And that is a hard, that's a bigask.
It's a big ask.
And it, you know, I talk withmoms a lot.
Like it sounds so easy to justbe like, you can only control
what happens in your home.
And I teach on that, and that'strue, right?
SPEAKER_00 (28:37):
Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (28:38):
But my goodness, is that hard to put into practice?
SPEAKER_00 (28:42):
It is, it really is.
It's I you know, that's that'sprobably the biggest next to the
death of the marriage, like thebiggest grief is like I'm not
gonna have a say so.
SPEAKER_01 (28:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (28:56):
And these things feel really important.
SPEAKER_01 (28:58):
Or I feel like my child does best when sometimes
it comes from just reallywell-intentioned.
You know, I was thinking aboutthis the other day and I was
talking about nesting and howsome people do nesting, and I I
had like a little reminder, evenwhen you're in the same home,
bedtime looks differentdepending on what parent is
(29:20):
doing it.
And you might have the samebedtime routine at the same
time, but they're it's more likesiblings than twins.
And I find moms post-separationget real wrapped up in things
need to be twins.
Yeah.
But they won't, babe.
Like they won't, even whenyou're in the same house.
SPEAKER_00 (29:43):
But it makes but it makes sense that the poll to
make things as the same as youpossibly can out of wanting to
protect your kids from grief andtrauma and change and
transition, like that pull to belike.
Like I feel so awful about whatmy kids are having to go through
and what or what I put themthrough or what we're putting
(30:06):
them through, right?
SPEAKER_01 (30:07):
Yeah.
And we're right back to guilt,guilt and shame.
I see that go a bunch ofdifferent ways.
I think sometimes there's a overcontrolling that happens.
I think sometimes there's apassiveness or an
overcompensating sometimes.
Like, well, you know, we we didthis horrible thing to you,
(30:27):
which not my, not the words Iwould choose.
And so, you know, who reallycares if you go to bed late?
I don't know that that'sconscious, but I do think it
happens.
Oh yeah.
Right?
Yep.
Or there's this weird sort ofdynamic, especially around
bedtime, of, well, that's great.
You got to stay up late overthere, but now I get to deal
(30:49):
with an overtired kid that'sfalling apart and it's
transition day.
Right.
Then you fire off a message andthings just go from there.
Keep escalating.
I mean, this is hard stuff.
I mean, this is not this is noteasy work.
(32:09):
How do you keep the group frombecoming venti?
SPEAKER_00 (32:14):
Because I I actually think that venting is
therapeutic when done inboundaried ways.
Sometimes the space, you know,that someone needs to have in
the group or in individualtherapy is just I need to get it
all out because I can't say thisto anybody else.
(32:36):
And I need to say this.
I need to say it and havesomeone just like hold it for
me.
SPEAKER_01 (32:42):
Witness it.
SPEAKER_00 (32:42):
Witness it.
And for so many people that havebeen in high conflict marriages,
that is never something thatthey've had.
I know.
Right?
They have not had the being ableto the safety.
So I do think that there istherapeutic value to being able
to share it all and be like,okay, I think I got it all out.
(33:04):
And members go, okay, so whenyou said this, it made me think
of that.
Or wow, you really you werereally strong when you did that.
Did you did you notice that?
So it's kind of both.
Like if the whole group is justventing, that's it's gonna be
less productive.
SPEAKER_01 (33:22):
Um yeah, I mean, I think I think the key that
you're talking about is theboundaried way to do it and the
emotional safety and thecloseness.
Because if one person just comesin and leaves the group the week
after and they kind of justtrauma dumped all over
everybody, or just like my ex issuch a jerk, la la la, like
(33:45):
that's not productive, it's nothelpful.
Yeah.
But I think there are spaces andtimes when just like you said,
like you need to get it out, youneed to process, you need to say
things you have never said andhave the safety of it.
I was gonna say I see this a lotwith like Facebook groups.
It's just like a person soterrible.
And I'm like, let's just get offthe keyboards, you know?
(34:08):
Yeah, this isn't helpinganybody.
We're staying stuck in like, butit's because there's anonymity.
It's because there's not a pushtowards like reflecting on your
peace and holding the grief andmoving into healing and all of
the beautiful things your groupdoes.
SPEAKER_00 (34:24):
And when people are in the beginning phases or hard
moments, like so they may not bethe beginning phase, but like
they had a really unproductivemediation, they just need to
come in there and dump, right?
They need to be like, dude, ohmy god, you need to hear that.
Believe it.
You will not believe this.
And in the first few groups thatsomeone, assuming they're coming
(34:45):
in like kind of fresh, messymiddle part of the stage of the
divorce process, do they need tojust get it out?
Because they've been holding onto all the story and they've
been ignoring parts of theirstory and pushing away parts of
the story that they just likefinally it just comes out and it
floods.
SPEAKER_01 (35:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (35:04):
And so the group is really good at holding space for
knowing I was there once.
Oh, yep, I I know where she'sat.
She needs to be here.
She's just coming to terms withall of it.
SPEAKER_01 (35:17):
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (35:18):
And then once they kind of move through that with
safety and being reflected, youknow, back to then they can
start to look at it and start tolook at the narrative.
Narrative and words are a reallyimportant theme in the group.
It's that everyone starts thegroup by telling their story.
So the existing members telltheir story, what brought them
(35:39):
to the group, what they'vegained from the group, what they
hope to still gain from thegroup.
And then the new members get achance to do their story.
And then every time a new membercomes into the group, they t
they have a chance to sharetheir story again.
And what is really, really neatis that they notice different
things about their story eachtime they tell their story.
(36:00):
They notice so beautiful.
I didn't mention that thingbecause it doesn't bother me
anymore.
Or I did mention that new thingbecause I didn't even remember
that that had happened when Ifirst told my story.
They see different parts andthey get to be witnessed by the
group in doing so.
Narrative is a really importantpart of the group because you do
(36:23):
need to like hear what yournarrative is and hear how it
changes over time as you learn.
SPEAKER_01 (36:30):
Yeah.
It's all these very subtle butintentional things that you've
weaved in.
That's probably a decent blendof your skill as a psychologist,
which I happen to know is quitehigh.
Also, just your intentionalityof it and the experience of
doing it for so long and seeingwhat women need.
Does it run all the time?
(36:52):
Yep.
And then you open it and closeit.
SPEAKER_00 (36:55):
Yeah.
Just when the group's full, weclose it.
I continue to gather referrals,and then when there's a spot
open, we get them started.
You are in the group for 12weeks or more.
Usually people are in forlonger, but to get to your
point, if you come in there dumpand then you don't come back the
next week, everyone's gonna belike reeling.
Like, did I say something?
Was it me?
(37:16):
Was I too much?
SPEAKER_01 (37:17):
So it's I really take that commitment very
seriously to see if they'regonna be able to like hang with
it, even what I want to end onjust one beautiful kind of
question before I let you gotoday.
And you and I could talkforever.
In fact, we planned acontingency plan to talk longer
if we needed.
And we will.
I will see you and we will talkand we will have coffee and all
(37:39):
the things we do.
One message.
If you could give one message toa mom, or maybe not a mom, but a
mom, since we, you know, it isthe kids first podcast.
Um just freshly into herrecovery.
SPEAKER_00 (37:55):
What would you tell her?
It's just like this is gonna bea journey.
And wherever you are starting,wherever you're starting, it
might look different from thenext person.
That is okay.
Everyone's on their own journeyand you'll get there, and it
won't make sense to you now.
But hang with it, do the work.
(38:16):
You will be different in a year,you will be different in a year
after that.
You'll be different next month,really.
But uh prepare for the fall likeI used used to pre-kids, did
14ers.
I haven't done it in a while,but um lots of metaphors from
(38:37):
hiking, right?
And the idea of a false summitwhere you think I'm almost to
the top, and then you get tothat top and you realize it was
a false summit and it reallywasn't the top, and you've got a
lot another leg to go isdefeating.
And yet, like that is so if youprepare, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (38:57):
You want to lay down on the trail and cry, but you
really have to keep going.
You do, really do.
SPEAKER_00 (39:03):
Um, but something in you keeps you going, and the way
back down is a lot easier too.
But prepare for those falsesummits, prepare that it's gonna
be long, but each time you'regonna you're gonna get there
more and more.
You're gonna put more skillstogether and you're like your
kids easier.
Yeah, yeah.
Like all the work that you dowith with clients, like feels
(39:26):
hard to communicate differentlyright now.
And then it's gonna feel easierat some point.
It's gonna feel like, oh, I justknow how to do this.
SPEAKER_01 (39:33):
And similar to what you said, it feels very
different in a month, in sixmonths, in one year, in five
years.
But you do, I mean, especiallywhen you have kids together, you
have to think in the long term.
How are you gonna react withthis person when you're sitting
at your kid's wedding?
All right, my dear.
Well, I am so grateful for yourtime and for your beautiful work
(39:53):
with all of these women.
You're such a gift to us and toour community.
And we I love sharing this workwith you and I love sharing life
and all the things with you.
So, for my listeners, we aregoing to have show notes that
will have links to Dr.
Hicks' work and where you canfind her.
(40:16):
If you ever have any concernsabout that, you can also reach
out to me directly because Irefer to her all the time.
I have flyers like literallysitting on my desk all the time.
So very happy to connect you forher.
She is on Instagram at theCenter for Shared Insight, and
her website isCenterforSharedInsight.com.
We are so grateful to have youhere.
(40:36):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having meon.
Wonderful.
Thanks so much for listening tothis episode of Kids First
Co-Parenting.
The best way you can support theshow is by following, rating,
and reviewing wherever youlisten to podcasts, and by
sharing it with another mom whocould use the support.
You can also connect with me onInstagram and Facebook at Learn
(40:59):
with Little House, where I sharedaily tips and encouragement for
moms raising kids through highconflict awards.
And if you're ready to go deepand get more tools, scripts,
personalized support, andcoaching, come join us inside
the Kids First co-parentingcommunity.
You'll find the details atLearnwithLittlehouse.com.
Until next time, remember, yourkids don't need to be perfect.
(41:22):
They just need you to be steadyand grounded, and as always, to
put them first.
Thanks for being here.
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Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Male Room with Dr. Jesse Mills
As Director of The Men’s Clinic at UCLA, Dr. Jesse Mills has spent his career helping men understand their bodies, their hormones, and their health. Now he’s bringing that expertise to The Male Room — a podcast where data-driven medicine meets common sense. Each episode separates fact from hype, science from snake oil, and gives men the tools to live longer, stronger, and happier lives. With candor, humor, and real-world experience from the exam room and the operating room, Dr. Mills breaks down the latest health headlines, dissects trends, and explains what actually works — and what doesn’t. Smart, straightforward, and entertaining, The Male Room is the show that helps men take charge of their health without the jargon.