September 5, 2025 • 31 mins
Overwhelmed by the advice to "document everything" in your high-conflict co-parenting situation? You're not alone. In this practical episode, Dr. Karalynn Royster tackles the documentation dilemma head-on, offering clear strategies to transform that mountain of screenshots into a manageable, effective system.
Documentation serves three crucial purposes: creating an objective record of events for legal proceedings, helping you maintain emotional clarity, and most importantly, protecting your children from confusion and conflict. But without a proper system, documentation quickly becomes an overwhelming second job that many parents eventually abandon.
Dr. Royster walks through exactly what's worth documenting (and what isn't), sharing a simple question to ask yourself: "Would this matter to a mediator, judge, lawyer, or therapist?" While safety concerns and medical issues always warrant documentation, not everything deserves equal attention. By focusing your efforts strategically, you can build a documentation practice that's sustainable and effective.
The episode offers practical guidance on creating a system that works for your unique brain - whether that's using co-parenting apps, Google Drive folders, organized photo albums, physical binders, or journals. You'll learn the importance of documenting facts rather than feelings, and how proper organization can help you quickly identify patterns of behavior that might otherwise go unnoticed.
Ready to feel more protected and at peace with your documentation process? Download our free guide on handling difficult co-parents through the link in the show notes, and join us in the
If you’re tired of every conversation with your ex turning into a fight, the High Conflict Communication Bootcamp for Moms is for you. In this self-paced 3 day online course, get scripts, strategies, and a workbook you can use right away, designed for moms in high-conflict co-parenting and parallel parenting. Enroll now for just $19 here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to the Kids First Co-Parenting Podcast the
podcast for smart, intentional,millennial moms raising
resilient kids after separationand divorce.
I'm Dr Carolyn Royster, a childpsychologist coach and a mom.
After thousands of therapyhours with kids caught in the
middle of high conflicthouseholds, I'm here to help
(00:27):
moms like you do it differentlyFrom peaceful co-parenting to
total chaos.
I've got you here.
We talk boundaries, regulationand how to raise a great kid,
even if your ex is beyonddifficult.
We blend science with real lifeand, as always, keep the focus
where it matters, on raisinggreat kids.
This is Kids First Co-Parenting.
(00:49):
Welcome to this new episode ofthe Kids First Co-Parenting
podcast.
Today we are diving really deepon documentation, because if
you've been here for more thanfive minutes or read any books
(01:09):
on co-parenting which I know youhave or parallel parenting or
high conflict parenting anythingin the realm of where I know
y'all are living you will knowthat there's a lot of advice
about documentation and that youneed to document, document,
document, and what I have foundis that that's easier said than
(01:30):
done, that it can feel very,very overwhelming.
So today is a very nitty grittyepisode where we're really
digging deep into what does thatactually look like and mean in
practice.
We'll talk about what's worthdocumenting, how to avoid
getting really overwhelmed withwhat you're documenting, and how
(01:52):
to create a system that worksfor your brain and also does
what it's supposed to do.
This is a question I hear oftenand that is part of why I
wanted to speak on it today.
Little update in Dr Carolyn'sworld this week we did an
amazing live masterclass.
(02:13):
If you don't know, we do monthlytrainings that are free for
everyone every month on varioustopics, and so this month we did
one on gaslighting.
That was this week.
Not just what is gaslighting,although we did talk about that,
we also talked morespecifically about what I'm all
about, which is how do youprotect your kids from being
(02:36):
gaslit, or, when you know thatthey are being gaslit, how do
you handle that?
And how do you handle thatwithout speaking poorly about
your co-parent, because that'scardinal rule number one, right?
You can't be doing that.
That class was wonderful.
We had great live attendance,really great questions.
Some things came up about howdo you handle it when someone
(02:59):
who is a professional and isinvolved with the case is I
don't want to say contributingto the gaslighting, but in this
case that was the question waslike the person who's supposed
to be supervising the visitsisn't listening and isn't taking
my child seriously, and how doI handle that?
It was really interesting and,I think, very fruitful for the
(03:21):
folks that were able to attend.
Live Gaslighting is a topic thatI talk a lot about.
It's a very common concern formoms in high conflict divorce.
We do feature a lot ofconversations on the podcast
about that, so stay tuned forthat, as well as on the blog.
If you missed it and you'relike I really want to learn
(03:41):
about that, there are definitelyways that you can get that
information.
What I want to really dive intotoday is that when you are in a
co-parenting dynamic that is,more on the high conflict side
rather than the collaborativeside you are often told to
(04:01):
document.
You need to just documenteverything, and literally that
is the advice that you're tolddocument everything.
And so what happens and Iactually just had a call with a
dear friend about this recentlyand what happens is you have
thousands of screenshots on yourphone or thousands of
(04:22):
screenshots of text messages orsomething from a co-parenting
app, or you're holding yourcamera up to the Facebook screen
to get a picture of what theywrote on your mother-in-law,
your mother's, you know, notyour mother-in-law's, because
that would be their parent,maybe your ex-mother-in-law's.
Or you're holding your phone upto take all these pictures,
(04:44):
whipping out your phone torecord something your child is
saying, you're taking videos ofthings, you're saving all these
emails and before you know it,especially in these really tough
dynamics, you have 200, 300 ina day, in a week.
If you don't have a system inplace, you end up having just
(05:08):
this kind of hodgepodge, excessof information, and it's not
helpful for you because thenwhen you want to go back and go
through it, it gets reallyoverwhelming.
It's very disorganized.
And then when you're trying tofind something, when you're like
, no, no, this has been apattern.
Every time I don't take thisperson's call, they then call me
(05:29):
20 times.
You have a screenshot of thatfrom Monday, tuesday, wednesday.
Then we have several weeks thatdidn't happen and you're like,
wait, when was that?
That was in April.
We had just had Easter, we justwent on that trip.
Like okay, I think it wasaround April 10th or so, and
you're searching back throughendless images Gets to be not as
(05:51):
useful as we would like for itto be.
The other thing that I seehappen a lot is that moms get
really overwhelmed by just thesheer volume of things that they
know they need to document andthat are toxic and they want
someone else to see, and theyend up then giving up.
(06:13):
What I hear a lot is I starteddoing that.
I started following your advice.
I was documenting, you know,every message and honestly, dr
Reusser, it just got to be somuch and then I just had
thousands of things, tiny littlescreenshots here and there, and
one I don't want to be lookingat that every time I open my app
.
But two, it's not very useful.
(06:34):
And three, it's exhausting.
It's like a second job and Idon't have the time for that.
That is what we are diving deepinto today.
I'm going to give you a littlebit of a framework that will
help you know how and what todocument and why you need to do
it, why it is worth your time,even though it can feel very
(06:56):
overwhelming.
Clear mission, for lack of abetter word for you to move
through and decide what is worthyour time to document and
what's not.
All the while, as always, Iwant to be protecting your
sanity and protecting how youprotect your peace in regards to
(07:21):
this documentation process,we'll dive really, really deep
on practical ways to build thatsystem into your already very
busy life, and the hope is thatyou feel a little bit more
protected and a little bit moreat peace because you're resting
in like there's a method to mymadness.
It's not just madness.
(07:42):
Let's start with the basics.
Why does documentation matter?
(08:53):
Why do you need to be doing it?
Okay, there are three reasonsfor this One.
It is it's a record of events,right.
It protects you in a legal andemotional and mental health
state, right?
So when your judge or yourattorney says how many times has
(09:15):
your co-parent showed up latefor an exchange and you say,
well, it's almost every time,that's a lot less strong than
you being able to say somethinglike 80% of the time, 90% of the
time we're more than 15 minuteslate and 95% of the time we're
(09:36):
at least five minutes late.
If you have it documented, youcould run a percentage, for
example.
The other way that this works,aside from being able to produce
hard and fast numbers, is thatit can show a pattern of
behavior.
If you're bringing a case toyour judge and you're saying
something along the lines of youknow, it seems as though
(10:01):
there's a lot of undermining ofmy rules.
There's a lot of talking poorlyabout me and I have a lot of
concerns about gaslighting andmanipulation.
The judge or your attorney isgoing to be like okay, well,
what do you have to support that?
Do you have evidence of that?
If you are then able to producea screenshot of, perhaps, an
(10:28):
email that went to a mutualprovider, or a note that you
wrote after your child came toyou and said well, dad said that
you are really irresponsibleand that you don't take good
care of me.
How you handle that is aseparate conversation that we
will have, but that your childsaid that should absolutely be
(10:50):
documented.
But think about what's astronger case that you were
documenting that all along orthat three months from then,
when the CFI asked you forexamples, you then started to
think and write down thoseexamples.
If you're doing it as ithappens and you're just writing
it down in a factual way we'regoing to talk about how to do
(11:12):
that then it holds more weight.
We also know that memory is areally fluid thing.
We could get into this at somepoint, but there's some really
interesting studies abouteyewitness, testimony and
suggestibility.
When you ask someone to justrecall something, and so the
(11:33):
longer you wait, the lessaccurate your memory is, and the
folks working on your case withyou are aware of that.
So if you're like the exchangehappened at 10 am and you have a
note in your phone or you haveit documented in your written
journal at 10 12 my child saidthis to me and this is when I
(11:58):
wrote it down it appears to bemore valid then that's what I
would say.
Whether or not it actually is,we don't know it.
There's a level of protectionfrom a good documentation system
that in these high conflictscenarios, you just have to have
.
The second reason that this isso crucial is that it really
does help you emotionally and ithelps set the record straight
(12:19):
and keep it very clear.
You're able to reflect on whatwas said and how it was said.
You might look at somethingthat you're documenting later
and be like, ooh, that was notmy best self.
Or I'm noticing that every timewe have to talk about
extracurriculars, things getreal heated really fast.
(12:42):
I need to unpack a little bitabout why this is such a
triggering situation for me, whyI can't seem to respond in a
super calm way or moreproductively.
It may be that you're thinkingthen well, it's clear to me that
every time this topic comes up,around this holiday, for
(13:04):
example, that I have a hard timewith it.
Therefore, I'm going to kind ofmake a rule for myself about
how I respond to those messages,when I respond to those
messages and whether I use someof my other tools, for example
ChatGBT.
You may not want to put everymessage that you send your
co-parent through the ChatGBTlens, but you may decide that
(13:27):
every time we talk aboutThanksgiving, they know this is
really important to me, it'ssuch an issue for us it always
gets ugly.
Then you might be like, okay,well, before I respond to this
message, I'm going to put thestring through a chat GPT prompt
and let it make sure that I'm,you know, very thoughtful in my
(13:48):
responses.
The third reason that it's socrucial that you have a good
documentation system and this isultimately what we're all about
here is that it protects yourkid.
It protects them from conflict,it protects them from confusion
.
Let's say it's a well-intendedmistake.
(14:08):
This happens a thousand timesacross the course of a kid's
life.
I was going to say a thousandtimes a week, but that's a
little extreme.
This happens all the time.
I thought that the soccer gamewas at six and the soccer game
was actually at 630.
Oh my gosh.
But see, I sent you thatmessage that said they had moved
it to six o'clock.
(14:28):
Or in our co-parenting app wehave these great calendar
features and in a calendar thishappened this week.
One parent had put in anappointment.
The other parent didn't agreewith that appointment, so they
rejected it.
The appointment then becamereally confusing, whether or not
they still had the appointment,because the original co-parent
(14:52):
was like well, I don't know whatthat means by you rejecting it,
like, does that mean you can'tmake it?
Does that mean that youdisagree?
And that hadn't worked itselfout by the time the appointment
came and went?
There are absolutely somesituations in which it's just a
miscommunication and you're ableto refer back.
No, look, I said on our textthat I needed you to do pickup
(15:14):
today and you said yes, it'sfine, you forgot, but I just you
know there's an actual record.
It reminds me of this oldFriends episode.
If you don't know this, I am ahuge fan of sitcoms.
I am a Parks and Rec Office,friends, big Bang Theory girly.
(15:34):
I mean, I will watch them onrepeat.
I will quote them a lot.
If you follow me on socialmedia, I will use those memes
every chance I get.
But anyways, there's this oldclassic episode where Phoebe is
like journaling about Chandlerand Monica, who are married at
this point in the show, and Ithink she's like writing a
(15:55):
screenplay.
So she's pretending it's notthem but it is them and they're
very annoyed about this.
And they come home from beingout and there was a kerfuffle
because Monica thought the moviewas at six and Chandler thought
the movie was at seven.
And eventually they're likewell, phoebe, like we've been so
annoyed.
You've been documentingeverything we say and do.
(16:16):
What time was the movie at?
And she's like let me refer tomy notes.
And then they get upset withher because they're like why
didn't you tell us that we weregoing to miss each other on at
(16:51):
the movie?
And she's like well, becauseyou were telling me not to say
anything.
There are times when it's justclearly a miscommunication and
you can go back and look.
There are a lot of times whenthe same sentence to the same
people will produce differentinterpretations.
If you're in a very highconflict situation, this will
happen a lot, or it is apurposeful action to ignore
(17:16):
confirming the appointment, forexample, and so we want to be
really thoughtful about why youneed to do that.
Because you want to bedocumenting.
No, I did share that.
This is what time theappointment is.
When you didn't respond, Iconfirmed that you knew this was
the appointment.
You had access to the portal ofthe MyChart and you did log in.
(17:37):
You're confirming all along.
Then, when your co-parent comesback and says, well, I had no
idea that appointment was thatday, you're like well, let's
check the receipts here, myfriend, because here's all the
times I informed you in the waythat our parenting plan said
that I need to.
Let's talk a little bit aboutthe strategy behind
(17:57):
documentation.
So you're told to documenteverything, and there are some
situations in which this is avery good idea and you should be
documenting everything.
There are also times where andyou know, I kind of teach
parents about this in terms ofbehavior as well there are also
(18:18):
times that you need to beselective with your attention
and your intention.
You may not have the bandwidthto be documenting everything
that your toxic ex is doing oris not doing.
You may be finding that it'soverwhelming and or it's like
(18:39):
beating your head against a wallin the way that it's not going
to change anything.
We see this a lot with thingslike gaslighting.
Just one of the things we talkabout is that gaslighting is
often not recognized in manysituations as abuse or as
(19:00):
something that really can damagea child, and it's very hard to
prove, especially when it's verysubtle.
You may have tried to do this,you may have pursued how do we
manage this issue and you mightbe at a point where your
attorney's like this is kind ofthe end of the road here.
They're going to have to go tovisits even though this is
(19:21):
happening, which is a verydifficult place to be.
Again, that's something youneed a lot of support around.
We welcome that issue and talka lot about that inside Kids
First.
So please think about that ifthat's kind of your situation,
because that's a really toughspot to be in as a mom.
However, you may be noticing apattern around transitions that
(19:45):
they're showing up earlier andearlier or later and later.
That's a very clear objective,an able to be proven fact.
That is, it's on the ringcamera that this person came 20
minutes late again, or it's onthe ring camera that they
(20:05):
arrived at my house 30 minutesearly and sat in my driveway and
made everybody reallyuncomfortable.
Maybe not the uncomfortablepart is on camera, but it's
objective.
If you're thinking to yourselfI want to pursue stopping this
type of behavior.
I want to pursue that we reallystick to that like 15 minute
(20:26):
window for both of us, butbefore that, you know, the dogs
are going crazy.
I'm still working.
Kid's not even home from schoolyet.
You know that's a differentstory and we don't want that
kind of dynamic.
And so you may think again withyour legal counsel which we do
not pretend to be here at KidsFirst, maybe that's what we're
(20:48):
trying to work on.
Then that flows directly to yourdocumentation goal.
That becomes the priority.
Then that topic, that area,that specific issue that you are
worried about then becomes thebig thing that you're
prioritizing aroundcommunication, the timeliness of
(21:11):
communication, anything thatfalls under that umbrella then
becomes what you're hoping touse and to document and to be
careful about.
Things you should alwaysdocument, of course, are safety
concerns and your response tothem, medical concerns and your
response to them.
Anything in those areas youshould always be documenting.
(21:33):
There's no time that I wouldever be like, yeah, just let
that one slide.
But perhaps let's say you get 20messages through your
co-parenting app or via textwhich you probably shouldn't be
texting.
Get on an app if you can, butsometimes you're not at a place
where you're able to do that yet.
Like your pre-parenting plan,you're getting 20 messages in
(21:55):
response to you saying likepickups at four, and you are
concerned and feeling as thoughthis person is really kind of
attacking you.
Of course that's problematic,but if that's not your primary
thing, that you're trying toprove or trying to get adjusted
or changed at this moment, thenthat would be the one that I'd
(22:18):
be like okay, maybe, like take ascreenshot of it and you can
return to it if you need to inthe future, but you may not be
as diligent about organizingthat and putting it into a
bigger context.
The biggest question that youcan ask yourself in these sorts
of situations is would thismatter to a mediator, to the
(22:41):
judge, to the lawyers or to thetherapist?
And if the answer is yes, youneed to document it.
If the answer is no, it may notbe worth saving Right?
Let's take a minute to talkabout how you build a system
that works for you.
Different strokes for differentfolks.
My friends, there are a lot ofways that you can do this.
(23:03):
The most popular by far iswithin your co-parenting app.
I talk about co-parenting appsall the time because they are
the greatest things since slicedbread, as my dad used to say.
They are very helpful toorganize.
In some of them you can havesections where, like, we have
this message thread aroundhealth, we have this message
(23:24):
thread around school, we havethis one around extracurriculars
.
Doesn't become an issue of wehave like 20 different
conversations going at once.
Some people can do that.
Some people have the executivefunctioning to do that.
My best friend and I can have aconversation going over social
media, like on Instagram, abouta post.
We can be texting and then Ican see her or be chatting with
(23:48):
her on polo or out walking inthe neighborhood and we have an
entirely different conversation.
So we may have all of these andsometimes we're like let's move
this all to text.
Lots of moms can do that.
I don't really want you doingthat around co-parenting,
especially with someone who ischallenging for you and for your
kids.
Co-parenting apps probably themost widely used.
(24:09):
The next one is to use Google toyour advantage.
Google, if you're listening, Iam available for sponsorship
opportunities.
Just kidding, google Drive isyour best friend.
You want to be organizingthings.
Either you have a folder andyou are dropping things into
(24:30):
each folder.
Within your folder, I have Momsand the Kids First community
get access to, and also the HighConflict Bootcamp a
communication log where it's aGoogle sheet and each page has a
different topic.
So it's health, it's education,it's extracurriculars, what I
(24:58):
did, what I didn't do, how I letmy co-parent know, depending on
the topic, what my kids said.
Do I have other things to add tothis?
Do I have a photo?
Do I have a screenshot?
Do I have, you know, somethingthat needs to be linked to this
specific incident?
That is one of the best ways.
Incident that is one of thebest ways.
(25:22):
If you're doing screenshots, youwant to have folders within
your Google Photos or your ApplePhotos, wherever you're storing
them, that you can organizethem.
Pay for the extra storagebecause, my friend, you're going
to have like a terabyte ofscreenshots.
I hope we're impressed that Iknew what a terabyte was,
because I am, anyways.
So you're going to need to havea system.
You can't just have a bunch ofscreenshots.
You need to have a folder or analbum.
(25:44):
If you're only doing the GoogleDrive or the Google Photos,
you're going to want to have analbum that says toxic messages
about my parenting disagreements, about drop-off communications,
about medical appointments.
I want you to think about itlike the big umbrella is the
overall area that you'reconcerned about, and then you
(26:04):
have folders within that thatdocument and have more specific
goals so you can just dropthings into it.
Think about it like an emailfolder, which I have a bajillion
, but you know it's businessdocuments, it's marketing
materials, it's expensescategorized by each year, and
(26:26):
then, as I go through the year,I just drop them in there.
It helps keep you sane if youhave a system in place.
Yes, it takes a little bit toset up, but you will thank
yourself.
Some people use old school.
I say old school, but I'm notthat old.
You can just print out stuff,keep a file folder or a.
What do they call them?
(26:47):
Fill a file, fill a file.
That's not what they call them.
Like those expanding folders,you can do something like that.
You can have a filing cabinetthat you just stick paper stuff
in over and over.
If that's how your brain works,that's what I want you to do.
I've had folks and I've seenthem when I've been on the stand
with a binder and the binderhas dividers and it has every
(27:08):
email that's ever been sent andit's organized.
You must have organizationaltabs in it.
Good Lord, don't just put themall in a binder.
And if you are going to do that, have a separate binder for
each thing Health issues, schoolissues, arguments about the IEP
, whatever it might be.
You have a binder for it.
You know exactly where it goes.
(27:30):
If you get a piece of materialthat you want to document you
don't know where it goes, itmeans your system is lacking and
you need to include somethingmore.
Some people prefer to write.
You can also write things out.
Again, don't just keep ajournal.
Have a system for it.
Have a different journal or adifferent divider in that
notebook for each section.
(27:51):
What I want you to do is pick asystem you want to be able to
methodically and systematicallyuse it.
Use the way that works best foryour brain.
There's not going to be aperfect system.
I just want you working on itand that you won't abandon it.
It won't get too overwhelmingand you will forget to do it.
(28:13):
We're going to talk a littlebit more in another episode
about how you want to actuallydocument the words you want to
use.
We'll take a deep dive on thatvery soon.
But basically your rule of thumbis documenting the facts, not
the feelings, unless it is afeeling from your child.
(28:36):
Like my daughter said, she feltsad, but you would put quotes
around sad because that is herlanguage, not yours.
She was crying.
That's objective.
That's what was happening.
Otherwise you're not talkingabout.
I felt so angry that he saidthis.
That's not very helpful.
(28:56):
You can say co-parent arrivedlate.
This was the time In yourjournal that you're doing in
your therapy practice or as away of grounding yourself and
taking care of yourself.
You can talk about how thatmade you feel In your
co-parenting documentation.
You will not be talking abouthow you felt in that moment.
(29:16):
I just want you to know thatthis is a really important piece
of navigating high conflictco-parenting.
It's very difficult and we'rewell aware of that and that's
why I want to give you sometools to take it kind of out of
that place of overwhelm so thatit feels like less of a daunting
task.
(29:37):
Documentation matters, and itmatters very much, but you don't
necessarily need to documenteverything you want to really
define your mission and what'suseful.
Create a system, stick to thefacts, keep it as much as you
can focused on your child, andyou will start to feel calmer
(29:58):
and more in control.
If this was helpful for youtoday, I highly recommend that
you spend a little time lookingthrough our free guide on how to
handle and co-parent with adifficult ex.
If you haven't already, I willlink this free guide for you
down in the show notes, asalways.
(30:18):
Thanks so much for listening tothis episode of Kids First
Co-Parenting.
The best way you can supportthe show is by following, rating
and reviewing wherever youlisten to podcasts and by
sharing it with another mom whocould use the support.
You can also connect with me onInstagram and Facebook at Learn
With Little House, where Ishare daily tips and
(30:39):
encouragement for moms raisingkids through high conflict,
divorce, and if you're ready togo deep and get more tools,
scripts, personalized supportand coaching, come join us
inside the Kids Firstco-parenting community.
You'll find the details atLearnWithLittleHousecom.
Until next time, remember yourkids don't need you to be
perfect.
They just need you to be steadyand grounded and, as always, to
(31:03):
put them first.
Thanks for being here.
Welcome to the Kids First Co-Parenting Podcast the
podcast for smart, intentional,millennial moms raising
resilient kids after separationand divorce.
I'm Dr Carolyn Royster, a childpsychologist coach and a mom.
After thousands of therapyhours with kids caught in the
middle of high conflicthouseholds, I'm here to help
(00:27):
moms like you do it differentlyFrom peaceful co-parenting to
total chaos.
I've got you here.
We talk boundaries, regulationand how to raise a great kid,
even if your ex is beyonddifficult.
We blend science with real lifeand, as always, keep the focus
where it matters, on raisinggreat kids.
This is Kids First Co-Parenting.
(00:49):
Welcome to this new episode ofthe Kids First Co-Parenting
podcast.
Today we are diving really deepon documentation, because if
you've been here for more thanfive minutes or read any books
(01:09):
on co-parenting which I know youhave or parallel parenting or
high conflict parenting anythingin the realm of where I know
y'all are living you will knowthat there's a lot of advice
about documentation and that youneed to document, document,
document, and what I have foundis that that's easier said than
(01:30):
done, that it can feel very,very overwhelming.
So today is a very nitty grittyepisode where we're really
digging deep into what does thatactually look like and mean in
practice.
We'll talk about what's worthdocumenting, how to avoid
getting really overwhelmed withwhat you're documenting, and how
(01:52):
to create a system that worksfor your brain and also does
what it's supposed to do.
This is a question I hear oftenand that is part of why I
wanted to speak on it today.
Little update in Dr Carolyn'sworld this week we did an
amazing live masterclass.
(02:13):
If you don't know, we do monthlytrainings that are free for
everyone every month on varioustopics, and so this month we did
one on gaslighting.
That was this week.
Not just what is gaslighting,although we did talk about that,
we also talked morespecifically about what I'm all
about, which is how do youprotect your kids from being
(02:36):
gaslit, or, when you know thatthey are being gaslit, how do
you handle that?
And how do you handle thatwithout speaking poorly about
your co-parent, because that'scardinal rule number one, right?
You can't be doing that.
That class was wonderful.
We had great live attendance,really great questions.
Some things came up about howdo you handle it when someone
(02:59):
who is a professional and isinvolved with the case is I
don't want to say contributingto the gaslighting, but in this
case that was the question waslike the person who's supposed
to be supervising the visitsisn't listening and isn't taking
my child seriously, and how doI handle that?
It was really interesting and,I think, very fruitful for the
(03:21):
folks that were able to attend.
Live Gaslighting is a topic thatI talk a lot about.
It's a very common concern formoms in high conflict divorce.
We do feature a lot ofconversations on the podcast
about that, so stay tuned forthat, as well as on the blog.
If you missed it and you'relike I really want to learn
(03:41):
about that, there are definitelyways that you can get that
information.
What I want to really dive intotoday is that when you are in a
co-parenting dynamic that is,more on the high conflict side
rather than the collaborativeside you are often told to
(04:01):
document.
You need to just documenteverything, and literally that
is the advice that you're tolddocument everything.
And so what happens and Iactually just had a call with a
dear friend about this recentlyand what happens is you have
thousands of screenshots on yourphone or thousands of
(04:22):
screenshots of text messages orsomething from a co-parenting
app, or you're holding yourcamera up to the Facebook screen
to get a picture of what theywrote on your mother-in-law,
your mother's, you know, notyour mother-in-law's, because
that would be their parent,maybe your ex-mother-in-law's.
Or you're holding your phone upto take all these pictures,
(04:44):
whipping out your phone torecord something your child is
saying, you're taking videos ofthings, you're saving all these
emails and before you know it,especially in these really tough
dynamics, you have 200, 300 ina day, in a week.
If you don't have a system inplace, you end up having just
(05:08):
this kind of hodgepodge, excessof information, and it's not
helpful for you because thenwhen you want to go back and go
through it, it gets reallyoverwhelming.
It's very disorganized.
And then when you're trying tofind something, when you're like
, no, no, this has been apattern.
Every time I don't take thisperson's call, they then call me
(05:29):
20 times.
You have a screenshot of thatfrom Monday, tuesday, wednesday.
Then we have several weeks thatdidn't happen and you're like,
wait, when was that?
That was in April.
We had just had Easter, we justwent on that trip.
Like okay, I think it wasaround April 10th or so, and
you're searching back throughendless images Gets to be not as
(05:51):
useful as we would like for itto be.
The other thing that I seehappen a lot is that moms get
really overwhelmed by just thesheer volume of things that they
know they need to document andthat are toxic and they want
someone else to see, and theyend up then giving up.
(06:13):
What I hear a lot is I starteddoing that.
I started following your advice.
I was documenting, you know,every message and honestly, dr
Reusser, it just got to be somuch and then I just had
thousands of things, tiny littlescreenshots here and there, and
one I don't want to be lookingat that every time I open my app
.
But two, it's not very useful.
(06:34):
And three, it's exhausting.
It's like a second job and Idon't have the time for that.
That is what we are diving deepinto today.
I'm going to give you a littlebit of a framework that will
help you know how and what todocument and why you need to do
it, why it is worth your time,even though it can feel very
(06:56):
overwhelming.
Clear mission, for lack of abetter word for you to move
through and decide what is worthyour time to document and
what's not.
All the while, as always, Iwant to be protecting your
sanity and protecting how youprotect your peace in regards to
(07:21):
this documentation process,we'll dive really, really deep
on practical ways to build thatsystem into your already very
busy life, and the hope is thatyou feel a little bit more
protected and a little bit moreat peace because you're resting
in like there's a method to mymadness.
It's not just madness.
(07:42):
Let's start with the basics.
Why does documentation matter?
(08:53):
Why do you need to be doing it?
Okay, there are three reasonsfor this One.
It is it's a record of events,right.
It protects you in a legal andemotional and mental health
state, right?
So when your judge or yourattorney says how many times has
(09:15):
your co-parent showed up latefor an exchange and you say,
well, it's almost every time,that's a lot less strong than
you being able to say somethinglike 80% of the time, 90% of the
time we're more than 15 minuteslate and 95% of the time we're
(09:36):
at least five minutes late.
If you have it documented, youcould run a percentage, for
example.
The other way that this works,aside from being able to produce
hard and fast numbers, is thatit can show a pattern of
behavior.
If you're bringing a case toyour judge and you're saying
something along the lines of youknow, it seems as though
(10:01):
there's a lot of undermining ofmy rules.
There's a lot of talking poorlyabout me and I have a lot of
concerns about gaslighting andmanipulation.
The judge or your attorney isgoing to be like okay, well,
what do you have to support that?
Do you have evidence of that?
If you are then able to producea screenshot of, perhaps, an
(10:28):
email that went to a mutualprovider, or a note that you
wrote after your child came toyou and said well, dad said that
you are really irresponsibleand that you don't take good
care of me.
How you handle that is aseparate conversation that we
will have, but that your childsaid that should absolutely be
(10:50):
documented.
But think about what's astronger case that you were
documenting that all along orthat three months from then,
when the CFI asked you forexamples, you then started to
think and write down thoseexamples.
If you're doing it as ithappens and you're just writing
it down in a factual way we'regoing to talk about how to do
(11:12):
that then it holds more weight.
We also know that memory is areally fluid thing.
We could get into this at somepoint, but there's some really
interesting studies abouteyewitness, testimony and
suggestibility.
When you ask someone to justrecall something, and so the
(11:33):
longer you wait, the lessaccurate your memory is, and the
folks working on your case withyou are aware of that.
So if you're like the exchangehappened at 10 am and you have a
note in your phone or you haveit documented in your written
journal at 10 12 my child saidthis to me and this is when I
(11:58):
wrote it down it appears to bemore valid then that's what I
would say.
Whether or not it actually is,we don't know it.
There's a level of protectionfrom a good documentation system
that in these high conflictscenarios, you just have to have
.
The second reason that this isso crucial is that it really
does help you emotionally and ithelps set the record straight
(12:19):
and keep it very clear.
You're able to reflect on whatwas said and how it was said.
You might look at somethingthat you're documenting later
and be like, ooh, that was notmy best self.
Or I'm noticing that every timewe have to talk about
extracurriculars, things getreal heated really fast.
(12:42):
I need to unpack a little bitabout why this is such a
triggering situation for me, whyI can't seem to respond in a
super calm way or moreproductively.
It may be that you're thinkingthen well, it's clear to me that
every time this topic comes up,around this holiday, for
(13:04):
example, that I have a hard timewith it.
Therefore, I'm going to kind ofmake a rule for myself about
how I respond to those messages,when I respond to those
messages and whether I use someof my other tools, for example
ChatGBT.
You may not want to put everymessage that you send your
co-parent through the ChatGBTlens, but you may decide that
(13:27):
every time we talk aboutThanksgiving, they know this is
really important to me, it'ssuch an issue for us it always
gets ugly.
Then you might be like, okay,well, before I respond to this
message, I'm going to put thestring through a chat GPT prompt
and let it make sure that I'm,you know, very thoughtful in my
(13:48):
responses.
The third reason that it's socrucial that you have a good
documentation system and this isultimately what we're all about
here is that it protects yourkid.
It protects them from conflict,it protects them from confusion
.
Let's say it's a well-intendedmistake.
(14:08):
This happens a thousand timesacross the course of a kid's
life.
I was going to say a thousandtimes a week, but that's a
little extreme.
This happens all the time.
I thought that the soccer gamewas at six and the soccer game
was actually at 630.
Oh my gosh.
But see, I sent you thatmessage that said they had moved
it to six o'clock.
(14:28):
Or in our co-parenting app wehave these great calendar
features and in a calendar thishappened this week.
One parent had put in anappointment.
The other parent didn't agreewith that appointment, so they
rejected it.
The appointment then becamereally confusing, whether or not
they still had the appointment,because the original co-parent
(14:52):
was like well, I don't know whatthat means by you rejecting it,
like, does that mean you can'tmake it?
Does that mean that youdisagree?
And that hadn't worked itselfout by the time the appointment
came and went?
There are absolutely somesituations in which it's just a
miscommunication and you're ableto refer back.
No, look, I said on our textthat I needed you to do pickup
(15:14):
today and you said yes, it'sfine, you forgot, but I just you
know there's an actual record.
It reminds me of this oldFriends episode.
If you don't know this, I am ahuge fan of sitcoms.
I am a Parks and Rec Office,friends, big Bang Theory girly.
(15:34):
I mean, I will watch them onrepeat.
I will quote them a lot.
If you follow me on socialmedia, I will use those memes
every chance I get.
But anyways, there's this oldclassic episode where Phoebe is
like journaling about Chandlerand Monica, who are married at
this point in the show, and Ithink she's like writing a
(15:55):
screenplay.
So she's pretending it's notthem but it is them and they're
very annoyed about this.
And they come home from beingout and there was a kerfuffle
because Monica thought the moviewas at six and Chandler thought
the movie was at seven.
And eventually they're likewell, phoebe, like we've been so
annoyed.
You've been documentingeverything we say and do.
(16:16):
What time was the movie at?
And she's like let me refer tomy notes.
And then they get upset withher because they're like why
didn't you tell us that we weregoing to miss each other on at
(16:51):
the movie?
And she's like well, becauseyou were telling me not to say
anything.
There are times when it's justclearly a miscommunication and
you can go back and look.
There are a lot of times whenthe same sentence to the same
people will produce differentinterpretations.
If you're in a very highconflict situation, this will
happen a lot, or it is apurposeful action to ignore
(17:16):
confirming the appointment, forexample, and so we want to be
really thoughtful about why youneed to do that.
Because you want to bedocumenting.
No, I did share that.
This is what time theappointment is.
When you didn't respond, Iconfirmed that you knew this was
the appointment.
You had access to the portal ofthe MyChart and you did log in.
(17:37):
You're confirming all along.
Then, when your co-parent comesback and says, well, I had no
idea that appointment was thatday, you're like well, let's
check the receipts here, myfriend, because here's all the
times I informed you in the waythat our parenting plan said
that I need to.
Let's talk a little bit aboutthe strategy behind
(17:57):
documentation.
So you're told to documenteverything, and there are some
situations in which this is avery good idea and you should be
documenting everything.
There are also times where andyou know, I kind of teach
parents about this in terms ofbehavior as well there are also
(18:18):
times that you need to beselective with your attention
and your intention.
You may not have the bandwidthto be documenting everything
that your toxic ex is doing oris not doing.
You may be finding that it'soverwhelming and or it's like
(18:39):
beating your head against a wallin the way that it's not going
to change anything.
We see this a lot with thingslike gaslighting.
Just one of the things we talkabout is that gaslighting is
often not recognized in manysituations as abuse or as
(19:00):
something that really can damagea child, and it's very hard to
prove, especially when it's verysubtle.
You may have tried to do this,you may have pursued how do we
manage this issue and you mightbe at a point where your
attorney's like this is kind ofthe end of the road here.
They're going to have to go tovisits even though this is
(19:21):
happening, which is a verydifficult place to be.
Again, that's something youneed a lot of support around.
We welcome that issue and talka lot about that inside Kids
First.
So please think about that ifthat's kind of your situation,
because that's a really toughspot to be in as a mom.
However, you may be noticing apattern around transitions that
(19:45):
they're showing up earlier andearlier or later and later.
That's a very clear objective,an able to be proven fact.
That is, it's on the ringcamera that this person came 20
minutes late again, or it's onthe ring camera that they
(20:05):
arrived at my house 30 minutesearly and sat in my driveway and
made everybody reallyuncomfortable.
Maybe not the uncomfortablepart is on camera, but it's
objective.
If you're thinking to yourselfI want to pursue stopping this
type of behavior.
I want to pursue that we reallystick to that like 15 minute
(20:26):
window for both of us, butbefore that, you know, the dogs
are going crazy.
I'm still working.
Kid's not even home from schoolyet.
You know that's a differentstory and we don't want that
kind of dynamic.
And so you may think again withyour legal counsel which we do
not pretend to be here at KidsFirst, maybe that's what we're
(20:48):
trying to work on.
Then that flows directly to yourdocumentation goal.
That becomes the priority.
Then that topic, that area,that specific issue that you are
worried about then becomes thebig thing that you're
prioritizing aroundcommunication, the timeliness of
(21:11):
communication, anything thatfalls under that umbrella then
becomes what you're hoping touse and to document and to be
careful about.
Things you should alwaysdocument, of course, are safety
concerns and your response tothem, medical concerns and your
response to them.
Anything in those areas youshould always be documenting.
(21:33):
There's no time that I wouldever be like, yeah, just let
that one slide.
But perhaps let's say you get 20messages through your
co-parenting app or via textwhich you probably shouldn't be
texting.
Get on an app if you can, butsometimes you're not at a place
where you're able to do that yet.
Like your pre-parenting plan,you're getting 20 messages in
(21:55):
response to you saying likepickups at four, and you are
concerned and feeling as thoughthis person is really kind of
attacking you.
Of course that's problematic,but if that's not your primary
thing, that you're trying toprove or trying to get adjusted
or changed at this moment, thenthat would be the one that I'd
(22:18):
be like okay, maybe, like take ascreenshot of it and you can
return to it if you need to inthe future, but you may not be
as diligent about organizingthat and putting it into a
bigger context.
The biggest question that youcan ask yourself in these sorts
of situations is would thismatter to a mediator, to the
(22:41):
judge, to the lawyers or to thetherapist?
And if the answer is yes, youneed to document it.
If the answer is no, it may notbe worth saving Right?
Let's take a minute to talkabout how you build a system
that works for you.
Different strokes for differentfolks.
My friends, there are a lot ofways that you can do this.
(23:03):
The most popular by far iswithin your co-parenting app.
I talk about co-parenting appsall the time because they are
the greatest things since slicedbread, as my dad used to say.
They are very helpful toorganize.
In some of them you can havesections where, like, we have
this message thread aroundhealth, we have this message
(23:24):
thread around school, we havethis one around extracurriculars
.
Doesn't become an issue of wehave like 20 different
conversations going at once.
Some people can do that.
Some people have the executivefunctioning to do that.
My best friend and I can have aconversation going over social
media, like on Instagram, abouta post.
We can be texting and then Ican see her or be chatting with
(23:48):
her on polo or out walking inthe neighborhood and we have an
entirely different conversation.
So we may have all of these andsometimes we're like let's move
this all to text.
Lots of moms can do that.
I don't really want you doingthat around co-parenting,
especially with someone who ischallenging for you and for your
kids.
Co-parenting apps probably themost widely used.
(24:09):
The next one is to use Google toyour advantage.
Google, if you're listening, Iam available for sponsorship
opportunities.
Just kidding, google Drive isyour best friend.
You want to be organizingthings.
Either you have a folder andyou are dropping things into
(24:30):
each folder.
Within your folder, I have Momsand the Kids First community
get access to, and also the HighConflict Bootcamp a
communication log where it's aGoogle sheet and each page has a
different topic.
So it's health, it's education,it's extracurriculars, what I
(24:58):
did, what I didn't do, how I letmy co-parent know, depending on
the topic, what my kids said.
Do I have other things to add tothis?
Do I have a photo?
Do I have a screenshot?
Do I have, you know, somethingthat needs to be linked to this
specific incident?
That is one of the best ways.
Incident that is one of thebest ways.
(25:22):
If you're doing screenshots, youwant to have folders within
your Google Photos or your ApplePhotos, wherever you're storing
them, that you can organizethem.
Pay for the extra storagebecause, my friend, you're going
to have like a terabyte ofscreenshots.
I hope we're impressed that Iknew what a terabyte was,
because I am, anyways.
So you're going to need to havea system.
You can't just have a bunch ofscreenshots.
You need to have a folder or analbum.
(25:44):
If you're only doing the GoogleDrive or the Google Photos,
you're going to want to have analbum that says toxic messages
about my parenting disagreements, about drop-off communications,
about medical appointments.
I want you to think about itlike the big umbrella is the
overall area that you'reconcerned about, and then you
(26:04):
have folders within that thatdocument and have more specific
goals so you can just dropthings into it.
Think about it like an emailfolder, which I have a bajillion
, but you know it's businessdocuments, it's marketing
materials, it's expensescategorized by each year, and
(26:26):
then, as I go through the year,I just drop them in there.
It helps keep you sane if youhave a system in place.
Yes, it takes a little bit toset up, but you will thank
yourself.
Some people use old school.
I say old school, but I'm notthat old.
You can just print out stuff,keep a file folder or a.
What do they call them?
(26:47):
Fill a file, fill a file.
That's not what they call them.
Like those expanding folders,you can do something like that.
You can have a filing cabinetthat you just stick paper stuff
in over and over.
If that's how your brain works,that's what I want you to do.
I've had folks and I've seenthem when I've been on the stand
with a binder and the binderhas dividers and it has every
(27:08):
email that's ever been sent andit's organized.
You must have organizationaltabs in it.
Good Lord, don't just put themall in a binder.
And if you are going to do that, have a separate binder for
each thing Health issues, schoolissues, arguments about the IEP
, whatever it might be.
You have a binder for it.
You know exactly where it goes.
(27:30):
If you get a piece of materialthat you want to document you
don't know where it goes, itmeans your system is lacking and
you need to include somethingmore.
Some people prefer to write.
You can also write things out.
Again, don't just keep ajournal.
Have a system for it.
Have a different journal or adifferent divider in that
notebook for each section.
(27:51):
What I want you to do is pick asystem you want to be able to
methodically and systematicallyuse it.
Use the way that works best foryour brain.
There's not going to be aperfect system.
I just want you working on itand that you won't abandon it.
It won't get too overwhelmingand you will forget to do it.
(28:13):
We're going to talk a littlebit more in another episode
about how you want to actuallydocument the words you want to
use.
We'll take a deep dive on thatvery soon.
But basically your rule of thumbis documenting the facts, not
the feelings, unless it is afeeling from your child.
(28:36):
Like my daughter said, she feltsad, but you would put quotes
around sad because that is herlanguage, not yours.
She was crying.
That's objective.
That's what was happening.
Otherwise you're not talkingabout.
I felt so angry that he saidthis.
That's not very helpful.
(28:56):
You can say co-parent arrivedlate.
This was the time In yourjournal that you're doing in
your therapy practice or as away of grounding yourself and
taking care of yourself.
You can talk about how thatmade you feel In your
co-parenting documentation.
You will not be talking abouthow you felt in that moment.
(29:16):
I just want you to know thatthis is a really important piece
of navigating high conflictco-parenting.
It's very difficult and we'rewell aware of that and that's
why I want to give you sometools to take it kind of out of
that place of overwhelm so thatit feels like less of a daunting
task.
(29:37):
Documentation matters, and itmatters very much, but you don't
necessarily need to documenteverything you want to really
define your mission and what'suseful.
Create a system, stick to thefacts, keep it as much as you
can focused on your child, andyou will start to feel calmer
(29:58):
and more in control.
If this was helpful for youtoday, I highly recommend that
you spend a little time lookingthrough our free guide on how to
handle and co-parent with adifficult ex.
If you haven't already, I willlink this free guide for you
down in the show notes, asalways.
(30:18):
Thanks so much for listening tothis episode of Kids First
Co-Parenting.
The best way you can supportthe show is by following, rating
and reviewing wherever youlisten to podcasts and by
sharing it with another mom whocould use the support.
You can also connect with me onInstagram and Facebook at Learn
With Little House, where Ishare daily tips and
(30:39):
encouragement for moms raisingkids through high conflict,
divorce, and if you're ready togo deep and get more tools,
scripts, personalized supportand coaching, come join us
inside the Kids Firstco-parenting community.
You'll find the details atLearnWithLittleHousecom.
Until next time, remember yourkids don't need you to be
perfect.
They just need you to be steadyand grounded and, as always, to
(31:03):
put them first.
Thanks for being here.
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