September 9, 2025 • 52 mins
Chad Carlson shares how One Stone Lab School uses human-centered design to transform education by treating students as end users rather than products. He describes their unique approach that removes traditional grades, subjects, and bells in favor of personalized growth frameworks that prepare students for the real world.
• One Stone's origin story as an innovative school designed alongside students to make learning relevant and meaningful
• How human-centered design principles are applied to education through continuous iteration and student feedback
• The shift from viewing students as products to seeing them as end users of education
• One Stone's daily structure including Design Labs, interdisciplinary experiences, and mentor relationships
• Their growth transcript system that assesses 24 skills across contexts, replacing traditional grades
• The difference between durable skills (empathy, communication) and cognitive skills
• How colleges respond to their innovative transcript (accepted by 190+ institutions)
• The importance of human relationships over technological solutions in education's future
About our guest
Chad is the Director of Research & Design of the One Stone Lab School in Boise, Idaho. Chad joined One Stone in 2016 and helped design and lead the implementation of One Stone’s innovative, student-driven Lab School. He is currently leading One Stone's initiative to scale the school’s Growth Framework learning model and support schools in their transition to becoming transformative, future-ready schools.
Connect with Chad
Visit onestone.org to learn more about their model and trainings, or email chad@onestone.org for discovery calls to discuss how these principles might work in your educational setting.
Got a story to share or question you want us to answer? Send us a message!
About the podcast
The KindlED Podcast explores the science of nurturing children's potential and creating empowering learning environments.
Powered by Prenda Microschools, each episode offers actionable insights to help you ignite your child's love of learning. We'll dive into evidence-based tools and techniques that kindle young learners' curiosity, motivation, and well-being.
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We're all ears! If you have a question or topic you'd love our hosts to tackle, please send it to podcast@prenda.com. Let's dive into the conversation together!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
And I could argue like well, you know, because I
was K-12 public taught, I'mdoing great, I'm successful, I'm
happy, I'm you know, I've gotall these great skills that I
could say, oh, it worked for me.
But I look back on it, no, itdidn't really work for me.
You know I was not thriving asa middle and high school student
.
I was definitely surviving, youknow, constantly navigating
these like arbitrary rules ofengagement and arbitrary what
(00:23):
does learning look like?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hi and welcome to the Kindle Podcast.
I'm Katie, your host for today,and in this episode we're
talking to Chad Carlson, who isthe Director of Research and
Design at the One Stone LabSchool in Boise, idaho.
And my main take homes fromthis conversation were that
innovation and iteration ineducation aren't going to go the
right direction unless we keepthe student at the center, and
we talk a lot abouthuman-centered design and trying
(00:50):
to kind of replace this beliefthat the student is the product
of education and insteadswitching our mindset to the
idea that the student is theconsumer or, like the customer,
the end user of the educationsystem.
And I think Chad just does suchan amazing job explaining that
really living that.
So super excited to learn morefrom Chad in this conversation,
(01:12):
can't wait to share this withyou.
Let me tell you a little bitmore about Chad before we dive
in.
So, like I said, he's thedirector of research and design
at the One Stone Lab School inBoise, idaho.
He joined One Stone in 2016 andhelped design and lead the
implementation of OneStone'sinnovative student-driven lab
school.
He is currently leadingOneStone's initiative to scale
the school's growth framework,which is kind of like a learning
(01:35):
transcript that they've builtit's amazing and support schools
in their transition to becomingtransformative, future-ready
schools.
So with that, let's get to ourconversation with Chad.
Chad, welcome to the Kindlepodcast.
We're super excited to have youon today.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Thanks, Kitty.
I'm excited to be here andexcited to share my story.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Yeah, so let's get into that.
I want you to kind of take meback, give me like the origin
story of you, Chad, like cominginto education and into this
work that you know we're allkind of coalescing around, and
then tell me you run a schoolcalled One Stone and I feel like
One Stone is Prenda's kind oflike closest cousin as far as
like pedagogy and philosophygoes and I just am the biggest
(02:12):
fan.
So, yeah, let's get into it.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Well, I love that.
I love that we have a cousinout there extended family yeah.
So I got an educationcompletely by mistake.
I was in my fourth year incollege and I got involved with
tutoring at the University ofOregon and I really enjoyed it.
Like I didn't think I would,but I was good at Spanish.
So I thought like let's givethis a try.
And I really connected with thestudents who were like 18 to 24
(02:35):
.
They were frustrated,struggling.
They signed up for thisacademic tutoring service
through the university and Ireally just kind of it was
fulfilling.
It felt really good to have animpact on the lives of these
students.
And so, as I was nearing mygraduation time, I really didn't
know what I was going to dowith my life, like a lot of
college graduates.
And a friend of mine reachedout and said, hey, they're
(02:56):
looking for a middle schoolteacher at the school back in
Idaho.
You should really put your namein the hat.
And I thought, heavens, no, Iwould never teach middle school.
Middle school for me was adisaster.
I was not great at school.
So I'm like I am not going backto to like a K-12 situation.
I loved college but K-12 was adisaster.
But anyway, that kind of suitedaround with the idea for a bit
(03:18):
and then ended up putting myname in that I applied and I got
the position, which was just aone year sabbatical position.
So just you know, I thoughtit's like no harm, let's give it
a shot.
And I'll tell you I just Iloved it.
I loved working with middleschool kids.
I loved really what they did tome as far as like kind of just
my bringing me back to like whatis important, bringing me back
(03:38):
to, just you know, these kidswho are growing up and looking
for mentors, looking for peopleto hear them, to see them.
And it was a really powerfulyear for me.
And I think from that moment onI was on the path to getting an
education and, you know,continued my efforts and for
about 15 years I dabbled betweenmiddle school, high school I
(04:00):
was in independent education andpublic for a little bit, really
got into the internationalbaccalaureate and the IB program
and you know, all along the wayI really prided myself in doing
really creative, fun things inthe classroom with students and
making really powerfulconnections.
But it was about my 15th year ineducation where I started, just
(04:20):
kind of dawned on me like thatpower that I had was was waning.
And I didn't think it was me, Ithought it was the kids in the
classroom.
The landscape of learning wasjust totally changing.
Cell phones were becoming morepredominant, mental health was
becoming more of an issue.
You could do the coolest,funnest things and kids were
just in a different place,mentally and emotionally, and I
(04:42):
thought I can't do this anymore.
I think I'm think I'm through,just because you know like I
want to be there and have impact.
And I was struggling.
And so I actually didn't renewmy contract to that job and
thought I was going to justembark on a whole new chapter.
And I ran across Teresa Poppin,who is the co-founder of
OneStone, and she had OneStoneas an after-school program and
(05:06):
was like we are going to start awhole new innovative 9 through
12 lab school and we would lovefor you to join the team.
And I thought, well, tell memore.
She's like that's all I got.
I know it's not going to havegrades.
I know it's not going to haveteachers.
I know it's not going to havesubjects and classes as we know
it.
I know it's not going to havebells and walls.
(05:27):
She knew what it was not goingto look like, but she's like
what it is going to look like isup to our design and they were
really big into using thehuman-centered design approach
and doing a lot of experientialservice projects at the time in
the community.
They're like we're going to usehuman-centered design, we're
(05:48):
going to work with a group ofstudents and we are going to
design a school that does twothings that it brings meaning
and relevance to the learnerexperience.
It's going to be a place wherekids can learn about who they
are, pursue their interests,develop passions and really, you
know, make learning importantagain.
And I thought sign me up, let'stry this thing.
And it just so happened that myoldest daughter was moving into
(06:10):
high school at that age or atthat time, and I thought this is
what she needs, because I waswatching her come home from
public middle school with, youknow, four or five hours of
homework, just kind of takingover the dining table.
You know it looked likesomebody's war plans, with
textbooks and all of theseworksheets and things to do.
You know it's 11 or 12 at nightand I thought, like what is any
(06:31):
of this for?
And she's a happy kid, but shewas not thriving, and so I was
really excited to like, hey,let's thinking about end user,
thinking about human centereddesign.
Like I'm excited to work withmy daughter and her peers and
figuring out, like what shouldlearning look?
Like you know, what should thisexperience be?
And so that's kind of myjourney, to like getting to One
(06:52):
Stone that was 2016, where wekind of jumped in with very
little idea of what we're goingto do other than make learning
relevant and meaningful.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Love that, what would you say?
Make learning relevant andmeaningful.
Love that, what would you say,would I mean?
My next question is what's yourbig why?
But it sounds like you justanswered that you know.
Make learning relevant andmeaningful.
Would you add anything to yourbig why besides that?
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Yeah, you know, I think about my why a lot.
We do actually a lot of thiswork at OneStone and my why,
like my articulation of my why,always changes and so it's hard
to wrap it up in like a sentence.
But I think my why is really tolike help to support students
in their growth, whatever thatlooks like.
And so I think in my first 15years of learning I really
(07:38):
focused or in teaching I reallyfocused on learning, focused on
engagement, and now I'm.
You know learning is important,but the focus more is on growth
and moving from engagement toempowerment.
How can we empower students togrow in a way that seems
personalized to them andmeaningful and relevant to them,
which you know sounds reallyhard because every person has a
different need and a differentdirection they want to go in.
(07:59):
But as you start working withit, you start to realize like
it's so much healthier thantrying to get a room full of
kids to all focus on one thingthat usually no one in the room
thinks is important and can'tfind the relevance of why
they're doing it.
And so, you know, I thinkthat's that's my why is, yeah,
meaning and relevance, and thenjust helping empower students to
(08:19):
grow.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
I love that.
Two little bird walks.
I want to go back to.
You mentioned the IB program,international Baccalaureate.
I feel like this is somethingthat comes up a lot in the
experience or pedigree of thoseof us who are now kind of the
alternative education world,trying to chart a course for a
different system, a differentfuture in education.
So tell, just for ourlisteners' sake, tell a little
(08:43):
bit about InternationalBaccalaureate, just like 30
seconds on what it is, what wasattractive to you about it, and
like, does it still influenceyour work now?
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Yeah, so the the most of my experience in the IB
comes in the middle yearsprogram.
So the IB is broken into threeprograms primary years program,
which is like a K through five,middle years program, which is
six through 10, and diplomaprogram, which is an 11 through
12 program.
And I really, you know mydaughters went through the PYP
the primary years program, andthey enjoyed it.
(09:13):
It was very inquiry based.
And then the middle yearsprogram, which I taught in, I
really really enjoyed because itwas inquiry based and it was
thematic based and it was reallyon developing projects with
students, which I felt like isreally healthy for students.
As I got involved in the diplomaprogram, it becomes very
(09:33):
academic, it becomes very rote,memory-driven.
There are certain skills thatkids need that are, I would
consider, like durable,transferable skills.
You know the organization ofthoughts and ideas and you know
really developing grit andresilience.
But it just it was so heavilyfocused on academics that it
lost the individual.
(09:53):
You really didn't have time towork with the students in a
personal way.
If they had, like a social oremotional issue that they had to
deal with, it was like, hey,the curriculum's going, you've
got this big test in 20 monthsthat you're going to take your
senior year, had like a socialemotional issue that they had to
deal with.
It was like, hey, thecurriculum's going, you've got
this big test in 20 months thatyou're going to take your senior
year and we have to keep going.
And it really just kind of, forme, took my like I don't know my
(10:16):
interest in teaching.
I was like, well, this is notwhat teaching should be.
And so I love the IB, pyp,through Middle Years Program,
the diploma program.
If you are just looking for apeer academic experience, it's
probably pretty good as ateacher, not at all for me.
I did not enjoy that and Ididn't enjoy the fact that I
just really we couldn't stop andslow down and, you know, build
(10:39):
community in the classroom anddo things that were more
project-based.
It was really about rote memory.
So yeah, interesting I don'tthink that does the IB justice,
but that was my experience withit.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, no, that makes sense.
I feel like a lot of times,like there's this concept of
like doing what we do, like atPrenda or One Stone, and then
like as a counter, like quote,unquote real school, do you guys
?
get this At Prenda.
It's like we, a lot of peopleask our parents like school, Do
you guys get this?
It's like we, a lot of peopleask our parents like, hey, when
are you sending your kids backto real school?
And it's like, oh, just justbecause, like, just because the
(11:10):
learning doesn't feel painfulhere doesn't mean it's not
authentic, rigorous and likeeffective, Right, but there's
just.
And so it's kind of like weonly do K through eighth
currently and it's like okay,great, you guys like we'll just
take care of little kids.
Yeah, Like inquiry, Great.
But like when, once we starthigh school, like then we'll
like revert to what you'redescribing as like the diploma
(11:32):
program with IB is like thenwe'll start memorizing and doing
tests and like doing all thisstuff that we know is like
painful and quote unquoteeffective it's.
I don't think it's actuallyeffective, but you're, you're
taking a whole new spin on highschool, even at One Stone, Right
, it's not.
It's not this return to quoteunquote real school, it's like
even a leaning in to furtherinquiry and further
personalization.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Right, we don't really get mean, especially
because One Stone deals withhigh school students and you
know it is an independenteducation, so people are
choosing to come there.
So we don't necessarily get thequestion of like hey, when are
they going to do real school?
But we get aspects of that oflike, you know, parents being,
you know, especially in theearly years, really
(12:14):
hyper-focused on accreditationwhat are you going to do to
accredit the school Like thatwas going to have some profound
impact on their kids' experience.
And you know we get a lot.
We don't do grades, we're verymuch a growth-based skills focus
.
We don't focus on subjects, andso instead of getting grades in
courses, students getassessments and they're measured
in skills on a growthprogression that goes from like
emerging and developing throughadvancing and mastering, and so
(12:37):
you know we'll get a lot ofquestions like well, in that
they didn't have a traditionalexperience, do you think they'll
be ready for college?
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
You know, which is like the same semblance of the
question that you're asking,which is really funny, because
when we talk to our kids aftergraduating and they're alum and
they've gone to college orthey've gone off to the
workforce, they feel way moreprepared than the other kids
that are their age, that they'reworking with or studying with.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
And they thrive.
They're advocates, they knowwhy they are there, they know
where they want to go and how toget there.
They know how to learn and allof the other things.
Taking rote tests and crammingyour head full of knowledge,
like studies have shown, likekids don't retain that beyond
six to seven weeks, let aloneyears, and so, yeah, we don't
(13:23):
get the real school thing, butwe definitely get aspects of you
know in that they've done thisreally great collaborative, real
world learning.
Do you think they'll be able toyou know, transition
successfully to more traditionalcolleges?
And you're like, of course theywill.
They're going to thrive.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Yeah, I was just having this conversation with my
10 and 12 year old sons becausethey apprentice doesn't do high
school yet.
Like I mentioned, we're workingon it, but they're like I feel
like when we go, like we'regoing to be really behind and
I'm like you are sitting on apile of data that shows you that
you are like far beyond, likegrade level in many, many areas,
(14:02):
like what, and you youinterfere, like interact with
that data that tells you thatevery single day.
Why do you have this perceptionthat you're going to be behind
or not prepared?
It's really interesting becauseit's an honest question.
I don't know where they'regetting that idea, but they've
never been to quote unquoteregular school before, so they
have very little to compare to.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
And that of like being behind something like like
it's a that's even a thing, yes, exactly but it's this linear
progression that we all knowthat learning is not a linear
progression you know, and youknow it's, it's just interesting
and that's, I think, what thetraditional context kind of
instills upon you know, to getkind of like heady on it, like
on society and a greater likesocial understanding of
(14:43):
education and what it looks like.
Because everybody's noteverybody, many people come from
traditional educationalcontexts and they're under the
assumption that it worked forthem.
And I could argue like well, youknow cause?
I was K-12 public taught, I'mdoing great, I'm successful, I'm
happy I'm.
You know, I've got all thesegreat skills and I could say, oh
, it worked for me, but I lookback on it, no, it didn't really
(15:05):
work for me.
You know, I was not thriving asa middle and high school
student.
I was definitely surviving, youknow, constantly navigating
these like arbitrary rules ofengagement and arbitrary what
does learning look like?
This person at the front of theclassroom is going to tell us
and what's important to learnare going to be these seven you
(15:26):
know classrooms that you go intoall day long, where I knew,
like as a kid, there were likeso many other things I was
interested in, curious aboutthat, I wanted to learn and I
felt, you know, I felt that myinterests were not just
devalidated, but I felt likethat, like I almost kind of felt
like I wasn't worthy or like Iwas.
You know I didn't fit in because, you know, I wasn't connecting
(15:47):
with the learning that it seemedlike everyone else was
connecting with as I.
As I started doing research andstudying and looking at that
like there's a Gallup poll, Ithink in 2018 that talked about
engagement falling in fifthgrade from 75% to 33% in 10th
grade.
Engagement and disengagementlooks different in every kid and
(16:10):
so you can have all AAP or IBstudents who are highly
disengaged.
And that is what I was workingwith in the diploma program Kids
who were like killing itacademically but were not
engaged in what we were doing.
And they seemed engaged butwhen you thought about what was
important to them and what theyneeded and what they were really
(16:32):
dealing with in life, this wasnot what they needed to be doing
.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Yeah, I mean they're engaged, meaning like they're
listening to you, but likealmost like at a spiritual level
, like they're like not into it,right, and that's.
We're talking about somethingthat is much more like we've
kind of bucketed like educationand like we've sliced that off
as like part of a child'sgrowing up experience.
But then it's like but you haveto be there for the vast
(16:59):
majority of your time.
It becomes this very, verylarge slice, right.
So it's like, okay, when you'resaying you have to be here for
all of these minutes and you area little bit accountable for
looking at the whole childmovement and their mental
wellness and things like that.
It's not like they are therefor an hour in the morning and
then they go have many, manyother diverse experiences, right
, it's like no, you're like themain thing here.
(17:20):
So we got to really make surethat this is not causing a
national mental health crisis inthe youth population, which it
currently is, okay.
So you mentioned one other thingthat I think our listeners
would be interested if you duginto a little bit.
You said the wordshuman-centered design, and I'm
familiar with this concept, butI'd love for you to describe
this for our listeners, becauseit's something that's typically
applied to like making a productright, like you're designing
(17:43):
software or something like that,and then to take that and to
treat the student as thecustomer and to really get to
know their needs, as you wouldlike if you had someone who was
using an app or a blender orsomething like that.
That's a very unique approachthat I don't see being applied
elsewhere.
Like you know, you see a lot oflike legislators and like
(18:04):
experts sitting in, sittingaround tables, far away from
children, making all thesedecisions right.
So tell me about whathuman-centered design is and how
you use it to build a future ofeducation at OneStone.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Yeah for sure.
Well, so human-centered designreally is the process that you
know another word for it isdesign thinking, but it's the
(18:37):
process that really puts theperson or the perspectives that
you're bringing to the table andidentifying those and, you know
, understanding yourpositionality and whatever the
topic might be, and not justputting that aside, just being
aware of that, and then reallygetting to know the person or
the people that you are workingwith and designing with.
(18:57):
And you know it's atremendously empathetic process
where you know you're goingbeyond just talking to them,
you're also trying to putyourself in their shoes, so
trying to design experienceswhere you're actually
experiencing their pains ortheir glories, whatever it might
be.
You're conducting observations,you're really just kind of
(19:17):
trying to understand theexperience of the end user or
the person that you're designingwith and through the
human-centered design process.
It's very iterative and so, youknow, I think number one is
identifying the problem.
You know, and I think it wasEinstein who talked about having
a certain amount of time, youknow, given a problem, and he
would spend about 95% of thattime understanding the problem
(19:38):
before solving it and just 5%solving it.
And I think human-centereddesign really does that.
It's like its intention is tobest understand the problem and
also understand the implicationsof the effects that your
solutions might have.
Solutions don't happen in avacuum.
So if you're going to disruptsomething through a new,
innovative approach, there'sgoing to be a trickle down or
(20:00):
downstream effect of thatdisruption.
And so, you know, humancentered design does its best to
continually be in a state ofempathy and understanding and
kind of perspective taking sothat you can design with your
end user person you're designingwith and then prototype that,
test it, step back, get somemore feedback and iterate Really
(20:23):
, like we see, like one stonewhere we've built at the lab
school is incredibly iterative.
We didn't build it and then youknow, go through an iteration or
two and be like well, there itis, this is what it is.
We iterate every year.
We're in our 10th yearContinuously iterating,
continuously reflecting, alwayschecking in with our students.
The students that we have todayare very different than the
(20:47):
students we started the schoolwith almost 10 years ago, and so
is the world.
You know, I mean, ai wasn't athing in people's back pockets
in 2016.
You know, a mental healthchallenge has evolved, and so
things are continually changing.
The world is continuallychanging.
And you know that's what wereally believe.
Like we say, like we don't havea set curriculum, but like if I
(21:10):
were to say we have a curriculumat OneStone, it would be the
student.
And you know, and that's our jobevery year at the beginning of
the year is to tap into thestudent, learn from the student.
What is it that they need, whatis it that they want and what
is it that they aspire, and helpthem tap into those and
understand those better.
And that's hard for a 14 yearold, but they get better at it
each year, to the point whenthey graduate they're like fully
(21:32):
self-actualizing, highlyreflective, able to
self-evaluate, liketransparently, honestly in most
cases.
And that's how we built theschools is to really build it,
so that we know that it's thisthing that's in continual
evolution.
And you know it's this thingthat is never going to be the
same.
And we often tell our graduateslike hey, when you come back
next year it's going to lookdifferent and when you come back
(21:55):
at your 10-year reunion it'sgoing to look even more
different, but it's going toreflect the people in the
building.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Yeah, I think that that's so key and it's
interesting because you'rereally so like when we make a
blender or an app, like there'sa body of people, the market,
who has money that they caneither elect or not elect to
spend on your product, right,and that puts that person in a
position of power.
It incentivizes you as thebuilder, the designer, to make
that person happy.
And it's so interesting becausein education, we have an end
(22:21):
user, right Like the student,who is not actually the customer
.
Sometimes we actually end updoing what the government wants,
or like a legislator, or like astate test wants, or the
parents want.
We were confused about who ourcustomer is, because those are
the people that are making thedecisions.
Right, the child doesn'tactually have any
decision-making power, sometimesabout even where they're going
to go to school, right, so like,why would we focus on this
(22:44):
person?
That doesn't like we're notincentivized to ever make this
person happy.
And so I think that it's so key, as we look at redesigning
education and iteratingconstantly, that we are really
clear on who our customer is,because, while there are many
stakeholders, like there's oneperson in that desk for 13 years
, right, like they really arethe end user, and I think just
(23:05):
so many of us get confused aboutthat, and that's why education,
like the systems we build one,they don't iterate well, right.
If you look at any othercategory, the iteration over the
last 150 years has beensubstantial and education
largely looks the same becausethere's no, there's no customer
at the center of that, saying,hey, I'm not happy, and I'm I
and I can vote with my feet.
(23:25):
Right, kids can't vote withtheir feet, they don't have that
power.
But we need to because we lovethem and we want what's best for
them.
Like, put them at the center.
And that takes it takes peoplewho are actually really humble
and curious, and I just feellike a lot of the people who are
have, over the last 150 years,been building education like
they know best, they have thedegree, like you know everyone.
(23:47):
Should they kind of sit in theirivory tower a little bit and
like, but boots on the ground?
Like there's a lot of pain inthese classrooms from teachers
and there's a lot of pain fromkids, and like we were, we've
kind of just been telling kidstough luck, this is how the
world is.
Get used to it instead of likeoh, like, yeah, we could.
We could be responsive to tothese concerns and we could
(24:08):
actually create systems thataren't terrible.
Like I'm running a middleschool micro school out of my
home Hadn't started yet, butsoon and like the tagline that
I've come, that I've come upwith when I'm talking to parents
, is like it's just middleschool, so it's called the
Wonder League and my tagline- iswhere middle school isn't
terrible and it's like oh,that's like a new aspiration,
(24:32):
just like to get past the notterrible line.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
We have these cool one-stone stickers that say high
school doesn't have to suckright, yeah, exactly.
But I want to like kind of jumpin on what you said there, katie
, what you were saying early on.
I mean it's a revolutionaryconcept because I would argue
that for the last 150 years theend user was not the student,
the student was the product.
The student was the productsociety or the industrial
(24:57):
economy that was expecting thesepeople to come out in the world
and be compliant, be obedient,fit into a career and get on the
conveyor belt and go work for30 or so years, retire and kind
of fit into this formula thatcreated this very stable economy
and stable society.
And the 21st century educationbecause oftentimes you hear like
(25:19):
, oh, stable society and the21st century education because
oftentimes you hear like, oh,21st century skills is such a
tagline Well, the thing about21st century skills and 21st
century education is that wehave begun to take the paradigm
of the student being the productand saying, no, the student is
the end user and they are goingto take their experience and
move into the world and designthe life that they want to live.
(25:40):
That wouldn't have done that,that wouldn't have fit in so
well in the 20th century, wherewe really needed obedient,
compliant industrial, you know,industrially equipped kids going
into a workforce that were ableto just do what they're told.
You know, in today's world, theeconomy is very different.
There's so much DIY there's, sothe economy is very different.
(26:02):
There's so much DIY, there's somuch need for problem solving.
There's so much that oureducation system is not
answering that.
We're realizing that the enduser should be the student and
that the student will go outinto the world with these tools
that they develop through theirexperience and design the life
they want to live, and so Ithink that's a, you know, kind
of a fundamental change in howwe're starting to see education.
(26:25):
And so, you know you mentionedthat word of like we're
struggling with the you know,the end user, and it's like I
think I think we haven't reallyfully articulated that the end
user is a different person thanwhat we used to design for, and
a lot of systems that are stuckare still focused on, well, what
do employers want, what docolleges want?
(26:46):
X, y and Z, and I think thoseare great questions.
I'm not saying that theyshouldn't ask those, but those
should not be the drivers.
That should be information thatwe provide to our students so
that they can equip themselveswith the skills with the
direction they want to go inlife and so that they understand
what are colleges looking for.
Because I want to go to collegeand this is what I want to
(27:07):
study.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Right.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
What is the workforce looking at or looking for?
I want to be a softwareengineer, so here are the skills
that I need.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Right.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
You know, moving away from this kind of cookie cutter
.
Okay, they've been molded,they're compliant, they're
obedient, they're now ready tobe further trained in whatever
it is that you need them to do,because they're trainable, yeah,
so yeah, that's my kind of mysoapbox pitch on human-centered
design.
I love it Perfect.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Okay, so I want to get to durable skills, but I
think it would be helpful forlisteners if you kind of just
like went through a quick day inthe life of what learning at
One Stone looks like, just likekind of high level.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Sure, every day at One Stone looks different and a
lot of students design their ownexperience.
That doesn't mean anarchy, it'sorganized chaos and it's
beautiful when it's reallyrolling.
Students engage in variousdifferent aspects of the program
.
The first one, since we werejust talking about
human-centered design, is whatwe call Design Lab and students
(28:06):
will work in small groups fouror five students and they will
spend the semester working witha community partner, designing
with that community partner tosolve a problem that they might
have.
That community partner might be, the end user might not be, but
they're definitely involved inthe challenge or the problem or
whatever it might be.
Those are all defined by thestudent through the process of
working with the communitypartner and identifying the end
(28:28):
user.
So, a lot of learning aboutproblem solving, collaboration,
creativity, the human-centereddesign process in its own About
a couple of hours, three or fourtimes a week.
It's a significant part of whatwe do.
They do a lot of research,primary and secondary.
They do a lot of field work.
They do a lot of writing inthat area, a lot of reading, and
then we have what we callexperiences, and experiences are
(28:53):
interdisciplinary learningimmersions where you might be
combining a math and science, orcombining a language arts of
science, humanities, whatever itmight be, to engage in
project-based learning that inmost cases is also real world
connected.
So we use a lot of ourcommunity as a classroom out in
the world a lot.
(29:14):
Then we have workshops whichare more academic focused.
They will be shorter, a coupleof days a week, focusing on
specific disciplinary skillslike reading, writing,
mathematics.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Are those taught by?
I know everyone has a mentor,I'm sure you'll get to
mentorship, but are those taught?
How are those academic subjectsor skills built?
Speaker 1 (29:34):
We have people who focus like experts in writing
and critical reading andmathematics.
You know people who focus likeexperts in writing and critical
reading and mathematics.
You know some of our coachesare well-versed and like jack of
all trades.
Others are highly focused inone area.
But a good coach at OneStone isusually someone who is able to
coach multiple disciplines, bothfrom a project-based
perspective and then just adisciplinary focus in the
(29:55):
workshops.
Then we have a thing calledcommunity read, where the
students are choosing theirnovels or whatever they want to
read and they work in kind ofcommunities of practice, doing
Socratic discussions and whathave you.
Another big part, as youmentioned, is our mentorship
program.
We've got a program we call itLiving in Beta.
It's our wayfinding mentorshipprogram.
The students will spend fouryears living in beta where they
(30:15):
are developing the skills andthe mindset to really identify
who they are, what their valuesare, what's important to them
from an existential perspective,and then from a more
experiential perspective, theyare testing their interests and
their curiosities throughinternships, job shadows,
passion projects, even throughtheir experiences or design labs
.
That they're in doing a lot ofgoal setting, a lot of
(30:37):
reflection, and they're pairedwith a mentor that kind of walks
through that with them.
We have a number of wayfindingactivities that they engage in
as well to kind of help elicitlike that sense of like
introspection and reflection.
That is like, say, day in a life, every day is different at One
Stone.
Those are the core elements ofthe program.
There's a lot more granularityto it as well, like, for example
(30:59):
, today and tomorrow are do gooddays, and those are two days in
April where we just stopeverything we're doing and we
get engaged in communityprojects.
This year we're hearing from aguest speaker who's going to
talk about a topic that'simportant to them and they just
really engage with the community, kind of in this effort to like
give back and to do good.
So we will, we will disruptnormal programming to do really
(31:23):
cool things like that as well,that are just like fundamental
cultural pieces where there'slike tremendous growth that
happens like in a short amountof time that we're not trying to
like assess or capture orwhatever, just letting them grow
and, you know, watching themchange as young learners and
humans.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Yeah, yeah, so when do you like, evaluate, assess
and compare them to each other?
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Well, we don't compare them to each other.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Hopefully you get my jest there.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Yeah, yeah, we don't compare them to each other.
We assess them on their skillsand every experience that I kind
of outline design labexperiences, community reads,
workshops we'll have certainskills and objectives that
they're focusing on whetherthey're durable skills or
they're cognitive, you know,disciplinary skills and they
will get assessed during thoseexperiences, oftentimes
(32:14):
alongside with the learner.
And so we have a rubric thatkind of spans this growth
progression that we use, thatlooks at the student in three
different areas that the contextthey're applying their skill,
the level of agency in whichthey're applying their skill and
learning.
And the level of sophisticationin which they're actually
applying the skill.
So they get assessed for eachskill that they're working on
and the experiences throughthose criteria, and they do that
(32:37):
alongside the coach.
So there's a lot of likeself-evaluation, where students
are learning how they're likekind of calibrating their
ability to assess themselves,and that's when they do it, and
so all of the assessments areaggregated across the curriculum
.
So they might have three orfour things that they're doing
in a semester that's reallyfocused on critical thinking or
research, or even vulnerabilityis one of the skills we assess.
(32:59):
Those scores that are assessedover the semester are aggregated
, so we don't look at like whatcan a student do in
vulnerability in design lab?
We look at a student'svulnerability across the
curriculum and outside of theschool.
We're even assessinginternships and passion projects
and things like that, so reallytrying to get a holistic
snapshot of the student and the24 skills that we're working
(33:21):
with.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
That's awesome.
Can you give me an example oflike the difference between a
durable skill and a cognitiveskill?
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yeah, certainly A durable skill is one that's like
transferable across subjects,transferable across professions.
It's also their skills that are, like, very helpful in
relationships, so not justcareer focused.
So, you know, wonderful exampleof a durable skill would be
something like empathy, orcreativity, or iteration,
(33:47):
leadership, communication.
These are all really importantdurable skills that, no matter
what you're doing, you need toeffectively communicate both
ways.
You need to be a great listener, active listener, and you need
to be able to effectivelyarticulate what you hear and
what you understand.
And so those are really durableskills.
Thinking about transferability,understanding that they look
(34:08):
different in different contexts,and so I've often used like
empathy as an example.
Like empathy and design thinkingis one thing where we're really
trying to understand the enduser and design with the end
user.
But empathy might look vastlydifferent in the medical
sciences, where you're workingwith patients, you're working
with families who are concerned,you know, in the medical
sciences, where you're workingwith patients, you're working
(34:29):
with families who are concerned.
You know working with a patientwho's maybe also navigating,
you know, the world of financesand insurance, or just the fact
that they're dealing with ahealth issue, and so
understanding how to use empathyin your particular field of
study.
So understanding like ourstudents are really good at like
identifying the ways in whichthe durable skills are utilized
and applied differently acrossfields, whereas more cognitive
(34:52):
or disciplinary skills arefocused on things like research
and writing, mathematics, thesciences, and there's still a
lot of creativity can beinvolved in those.
A lot of durable skills areused in those, but you know
there are mechanics to writingand they do apply across fields.
However, you know writing isfar more focused on a
disciplinary use as opposed tolike a personal, professional
(35:15):
use.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Okay, interesting, and you guys have like a system
like a, like software thattracks this, don't you?
Speaker 1 (35:22):
We do?
Yeah, we have.
It's in beta, it's being tested.
We've got nine partner schoolsacross the country that are
using it, schools that are in Kthrough 12.
It basically allows schools tomeasure and track the skills
that they're teaching andcoaching across the curriculum
and even, like I said, outsideof the curriculum or outside of
the school, and it allows themto develop what we call the
(35:44):
growth transcript, which is ourkind of our visual, with that
growth progression that updatesin real time as assessments are
our input.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
That's awesome Talk to me about like these kids
transitioning into college andthe workforce.
Like, what does that look like?
How do you call it?
Like, say, I'm a college and Iget a growth transcript instead
of like like, instead of a likeletter grades and an ACT score.
Like, what is what is like?
That bridge look like?
Speaker 1 (36:11):
Yeah, so when, when kids are applying to college,
they're asked for their GPA andunless they've gone to a public
school for like a year or twoand then joined us but they've
been with us for all four years,they put in a 0.0 for their GPA
, which is really nerve wrackingfor a student because they
don't have a GPA.
And we upload the growthtranscript as well as what we
(36:34):
call an experience tracker.
It kind of like it's like acredit transcript.
It outlines all of thedifferent projects and courses
and what have you that studentshave done in their four years at
OneStone.
So schools will get those twopieces of you know, support to
see what a student can do.
They obviously get letters ofrecommendation and you know the
same thing that all otherstudents in the US get, and we
have a very well-articulatedschool profile that schools are
(36:56):
able to learn about our programand learn about the skills and
the ways in which, like thecontext in which our kids are
applying these skills.
In a lot of ways colleges aregetting or in many, many, many
ways colleges are getting a lotmore information about our
students than they are about atraditional public school kid or
even traditional private schoolkid where they're getting
letter grades and symbols incourses.
(37:17):
These schools are gettingassessments and a growth
transcript on a student'svulnerability and level of
empathy, plus mathematicalapplication and research and
writing.
And so you know, that's thegame on for students.
They can really.
This thing really shows theportrait of the learner and what
they can do, and we work reallyclosely with colleges so that
they can understand how to readthis and interpret it, how to
(37:40):
understand the context in whichkids are coming from.
And you know, we've the growthtranscript that we've been using
has been accepted by about 190plus colleges, colleges and
universities across the country.
We have found schools thatoriginally said, no, we won't
take this to like now being veryopen and accepting our students
(38:00):
, and so it's taken a little bitof time to, like you know, not
win people over but to reallykind of put more fish in the
pond so they're feelingcomfortable with it.
But as they see that list grow,colleges are becoming more and
more comfortable with acceptingthese kind of innovative
transcripts, and so that's thework we put into it.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
I love that.
Do they still take the ACT?
Like SAT, does it matter?
Some do, some students do, somedon't.
Okay, and like, when you havemaybe a kid coming in and he is
going to apply to a collegethat's never accepted the growth
transcript before, do you guyslike call the college and be
like, hey, just FYI, this isgoing to be weird.
Will you like reach out to themand educate them?
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Oh yeah, we do a lot of it's very hands-on.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Very high touch Our college counselor, lisa Fisher.
She's amazing and she does anamazing job communicating with
colleges and then developing therelationship with them.
The thing about collegeadmissions is a lot of those
college admissions officers thatreceive transcripts are very
young and there's a very highturnover rate.
They're doing it for a year ortwo and they're moving on.
(39:07):
So you're going to like awell-established private liberal
arts school.
Oftentimes you know you mighthave a transcript reader who's
only been doing it for a coupleof weeks and they're just going
to be there for that season, andso it does.
It does require a very hightouch process and it does
require, like a collegecounselor who really knows the
admissions process and knows theadmissions officers so that
(39:29):
they can reach out.
But yeah, that's what we do andwe invest in that.
We also help students identifylike career.
If they want to pursue a career, what are the technical degrees
or certificates that they need?
You know what if they don'twant to pursue college, like,
how do they go find a job and dothey need additional training
or what is it to be successful?
And so that's part of ourcollege and career training as
(39:50):
well.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
Do you ever have kids who want to do like dual
enrollment during their OneStone time?
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Yeah, we unbundle everything.
So kids are welcome to attendthe local university, which is
like literally right across theriver from us.
They attend the communitycollege here in the Treasure
Valley.
They also like we've hadstudents who have attended like
zero hour at the local highschool for whatever reason it is
.
We also will bring in expertsin fields that we don't have
(40:21):
expertise in.
So we had a student who reallyit was important for him to
learn Farsi.
His mom was Iranian and thatwas something that he wanted.
The local public school didn'toffer it and we didn't have
anyone on staff that spoke Farsi.
But you know, he said give us acouple of weeks, we will find
somebody.
And sure enough, we found atutor that came in and worked
with them one-on-one.
(40:41):
We've done the same thing withall of our world languages
Japanese, korean, spanish,german again focusing on what
the students need.
We're not just like hey, we'vegot Spanish, french, pick one,
but you have to take it.
We want to know, like hey, whatdo you want to learn?
And give us some time, we willfind the expertise for that.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
That's awesome.
Have you gotten any oppositionto like trying to put this
forward in the world?
Like I don't know, as anindependent, like private school
, like you probably don't haveto fight a lot of those battles,
you can just exist.
But just curious if there areany naysayers out there.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Yeah, I mean they're naysayers for sure, right, I
mean they're like I don't thinkwe're as threatening as we once
were when we started to thepublic system, but they were
really worried that we're goingto take kids out of seats.
So that was a big thing.
So that was a big thing.
We had to rethink ourrelationship with public schools
.
Where before it was easy tocome into public schools and
really kind of market andadvertise our after school
program, which is like superpowerful for the public school
(41:34):
kids, they started closing thedoors to us, which was really
sad because they were stealingopportunities, robbing their
students of opportunities toengage with us and the after
school.
So anyway, so like stuff likethat.
And then, you know, in theworld of funding, funders love
to, you know, fund things thatare scalable.
They love to fund things thathave a lot of data to back them,
(41:55):
and early on it was like it wasreally hard.
We didn't have data and soreally developing data,
capturing the learning storiesof our students, has been really
important.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
You have a documentary about One Stone,
yeah it's called Rise, rise.
It's so good, yeah, if anyonewants to learn more about One
Stone, that's a great place tostart.
Right, fantastic, what do youthink?
What's?
I'm curious like what's nextfor One Stone, what's like on
your horizon.
Then, like sub question what doyou think?
(42:24):
We'll just answer that.
I'll ask you the sub questionafter what's?
Speaker 1 (42:27):
next for OneStone.
What's next is what we'reworking on now and that's like
can this model fit into othermodels across the country?
So right now we're partneringwith nine schools across the
country public, private, charter.
We've got a micro school or twoand we're working with them to
(42:47):
see like can this fit?
What kind of training do theyneed?
What does it look like?
What's the uh, what's thesystems that they need to
deconstruct and rebuild?
but that's kind of what we'vebeen working on other than you
know making sure that we're likereally sticking true to
providing a quality experienceat the lab school, um, and so
we're kind of growing ourtentacles a little bit.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
That's awesome.
I'm curious, as you're pushinginto the public charter world,
if you're, if there's questionsabout like, when do you
guarantee that all of these kidshave been exposed to the 10th
grade standards?
Like, are we still going togive them letter grades, you
know, like, what's that beenlike?
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Challenge.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
You know, I think it's really easy to teach the
standards in what we're doingand the way that we do it, but I
think traditionally trainededucators struggle to see doing
things in different ways thanthe one way they've been trained
.
So it's a challenge.
I think the mindset of theteacher is probably the biggest
challenge for us.
School leaders typically arevery open to like, hey, what
(43:48):
types of things do we need tochange?
However, they always have theirlittle oh, but you can't change
the schedule.
You know, oh, but we have to dothis.
And so helping them, likehelping school leaders
understand, like, how do youlead systems change?
How do you lead it in a waythat doesn't fully disrupt and
alienate your teachers butbrings them in?
(44:09):
Because this is, you know, it'sa fearful place to be a teacher
that's been trained a certainway and has done something a
certain way for 10 years, andthen having the rug pulled out
from underneath you, being told,hey, you know what, next year
we're not doing grades and thisis what we're going to do, don't
recommend that approach.
And so our partner schools doit and they're just like, no,
we're all in.
And so we really just try tonavigate the waters with them
(44:33):
and you know, I think being verythoughtful and design is super
important of education lookslike.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
It's like I mean, you can just answer that, but
you're kind of already walkingaround it.
Yeah, just take that one.
What do you think?
Not just like one iteration ofOne Stone, but like for 55
million kids.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
I don't know what the future looks like, definitely
can't predict.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
I was really banking on you.
Knowing this Chad, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
I mean, if the last 150 years was an indicator of
the future of education, isprobably going to look very
similar to what it is today.
Not to be totally pessimisticor cynical, I do hear a lot
about the impact that AI isgoing to have on learning.
I do hear a lot about the questfor the ultimate LMS and these
kind of like technology drivensolutions, where I think and
(45:33):
this is just me going back towhat kids need are powerful
adult relationships in theirlives, powerful peer
relationships in their lives andreally understanding what it
means to be human, and so Idon't think an LMS delivers that
.
Understanding what it means tobe human and so I don't think an
LMS delivers that.
I don't think AI has theability to offer that.
It does have the ability totake some of the busy work out
(45:53):
of it.
An LMS allows us to be moreorganized, but I think a lot of
schools are looking for thatlike really cool AI LMS thing so
that they can revolutionizetheir program, and it's like no,
we need to radically change themindset of those in the
building, and so it starts withthe humans, the human-centered
design part, and then we can gofrom there.
(46:14):
And so if I start hearing thoseconversations and I hear them
in pockets from time to time.
But you know massiveconferences on that.
You know typically we'refocusing on things like
technology or competencies.
I love, like social emotionalskills are powerful, but like
really more human centeredthings, I think.
I would say, hey, it's like arosier outlook because that's
(46:37):
the direction we're going.
So I get I get a littleconcerned about technology
solving our problems yeah, wherewe need to solve our own
problems first.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
I agree with that.
So the beliefs of the people inthe building so vital.
Those beliefs start gettinglaid down initially as we come
through the system right, butthen also in like teacher
education.
So that's one of the areas I'mexcited to maybe see some
innovation in soon is like Idon't just have a teaching
certificate, but I like chose tospecialize in like Socratic
practice or like you know, likelike there's lots of different
(47:07):
types of teachers that really godeep into different
methodologies, instead of justlike I have this certificate and
can teach in a public schoolright, because then I think
we'll get a body of teachers whowill like demand better.
They will not be satisfied and Imean it will take time, right.
People just need to retire outof the system and eventually, if
we're pumping the system fullof people with different, you
know, like a different goal,rather than like move kids
(47:30):
through curriculum schedule,make them be quiet in desks.
So my job as a teacher is easy.
I'm not saying that allteachers are like that, by any
means.
There are amazing teachers inour school system.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
Oh, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (47:42):
But just broadly like the belief system kind of has
to shift from the teacher'sperspective, the admin
perspective and alsolegislatively.
And I think we're starting tosee that in the school choice
movement, where we're givingback a lot of the power to
parents to be able to be thearbiter of what is good.
It's like, oh, this is good formy child and I'm going to like
vote with my feet a little bit.
I think that's a good, that'sgoing to help make the shift
(48:05):
that needs to happen.
But a lot of factors, a lot ofstakeholders, lots of things,
lots of problems to solve.
So exciting times.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
You know as much as I kind of ended there on a
cynical note, I mean, I do thinkthat there are, like you
mentioned, some amazing people,amazing leaders out there who
are really grappling with thefact that, like that first
mindset change of, like thestudent is the end user, not the
product, yeah, like.
Like the student is the enduser, not the product, yeah,
Like like questioning what isthe purpose of education.
And I think we are having thatconversation which I think is
(48:34):
like so meaningful.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
So you know, in that sense, in that regard, it's very
optimistic.
Speaker 2 (48:40):
For sure, for sure.
Ok, this last two questions,this first question, something
we ask all of our guests.
The whole point of the Kindlepodcast is to help inspire us as
grownups to become the kind ofpeople who can influence and
inspire, kind of kindle thecuriosity and motivation of the
next generation.
So who is someone that did thatfor you and helped, kind of
(49:01):
like, make you who you were?
Someone who saw you for you,believed in you who is that for
you?
Speaker 1 (49:08):
Yeah, there's a lot of.
I've worked with a lot ofamazing people in the
professional realm.
My very first kind ofsupervisor, school leader this
guy named Nigel Whittington,who's a middle school director
the year that I worked thesabbatical position and teaching
middle school social scienceand Spanish language, he really
just had a profound impact on myunderstanding of teaching and
(49:33):
learning.
And his very first observationof me came in the classroom and
he watched and whatever.
And then you know kind of didthe 45 minute post observation
wrap up how to go.
And he's like, first off, likelove what you're doing, super
cool, and kids all seem thatfunny and great, great handle
the class and like thinking thisis great stuff.
Um, and then he asked that sowhat, why are you teaching this?
(49:56):
And like like I thought thatwas the silliest question ever.
I'm like because that's whatthe guy who's out on sabbatical
left me and this is like youhired me to teach this stuff.
And and that did not suffice.
He was like that's why you'reteaching it.
Is that really like, is whatyou're doing important for the
kids?
How are they going to use this?
(50:17):
And I remember being sofrustrated, like walking away
from that conversation like ohmy God, you know what is he
trying to do, you know, and andso frustrated and really a
couple of days of like I wasyoung kicking it around.
I'd never questioned the roleof the way we do things and what
we do and why we do it.
And he got me to reallyquestion what I was doing and
why I was doing it and itempowered me to really start
(50:39):
with why and be able to throweverything that was left behind
for me out the window and meetthe kids where they were and
make learning meaningful andrelevant.
Even though I wasn't talkingabout it that way, but it really
just kind of struck afoundational chord in me that
from that day on, I was like ifa kid ever asked why are we
doing this, I'm going to havelike an answer that's important
(51:00):
to them.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
I love that.
Okay, and last question, justto wrap up how can people learn
more about OneStone, your work?
If they want to learn more,where do they go?
Speaker 1 (51:09):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Just starting on our website,onestoneorg there's a great
place.
We have lots of stories ofimpact on there.
There's a couple ofseven-minute documentary shorts,
a PBS one, one by Freethink andStand Together Great stuff just
to learn about aspects of ourmodel.
We also have various differentofferings and trainings that we
(51:30):
offer, um, and so you couldreach out to me or just through
our website, finding ourtrainings and like wayfinding
mentorship.
But I would start with our, ourwebsite, um, and then I'm.
I'm always open to getting onkind of what we call discovery
calls and just talking, but whatis it you're trying to do?
How can we help, or can I pointyou?
You in a different direction,and my email is chad at one
stone dot org.
(51:50):
But yeah, we're, we try to getas much as we can on the website
.
So there's a lot on there.
I would start there.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Perfect.
Thank you so much for your timetoday.
I've so enjoyed ourconversation.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
Likewise, Katie.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (52:04):
The Kindled podcast is brought to you by Prenda.
Prenda makes it easy to startand run an amazing micro school
based on all the ideas we talkabout here on the Kindled
podcast.
Don't forget to follow us onsocial media at Prenda Learn,
and if you'd like moreinformation about starting a
micro school, just go toPrendacom.
Thanks for listening andremember to keep kindling.
And I could argue like well, you know, because I
was K-12 public taught, I'mdoing great, I'm successful, I'm
happy, I'm you know, I've gotall these great skills that I
could say, oh, it worked for me.
But I look back on it, no, itdidn't really work for me.
You know I was not thriving asa middle and high school student
.
I was definitely surviving, youknow, constantly navigating
these like arbitrary rules ofengagement and arbitrary what
(00:23):
does learning look like?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hi and welcome to the Kindle Podcast.
I'm Katie, your host for today,and in this episode we're
talking to Chad Carlson, who isthe Director of Research and
Design at the One Stone LabSchool in Boise, idaho.
And my main take homes fromthis conversation were that
innovation and iteration ineducation aren't going to go the
right direction unless we keepthe student at the center, and
we talk a lot abouthuman-centered design and trying
(00:50):
to kind of replace this beliefthat the student is the product
of education and insteadswitching our mindset to the
idea that the student is theconsumer or, like the customer,
the end user of the educationsystem.
And I think Chad just does suchan amazing job explaining that
really living that.
So super excited to learn morefrom Chad in this conversation,
(01:12):
can't wait to share this withyou.
Let me tell you a little bitmore about Chad before we dive
in.
So, like I said, he's thedirector of research and design
at the One Stone Lab School inBoise, idaho.
He joined One Stone in 2016 andhelped design and lead the
implementation of OneStone'sinnovative student-driven lab
school.
He is currently leadingOneStone's initiative to scale
the school's growth framework,which is kind of like a learning
(01:35):
transcript that they've builtit's amazing and support schools
in their transition to becomingtransformative, future-ready
schools.
So with that, let's get to ourconversation with Chad.
Chad, welcome to the Kindlepodcast.
We're super excited to have youon today.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Thanks, Kitty.
I'm excited to be here andexcited to share my story.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Yeah, so let's get into that.
I want you to kind of take meback, give me like the origin
story of you, Chad, like cominginto education and into this
work that you know we're allkind of coalescing around, and
then tell me you run a schoolcalled One Stone and I feel like
One Stone is Prenda's kind oflike closest cousin as far as
like pedagogy and philosophygoes and I just am the biggest
(02:12):
fan.
So, yeah, let's get into it.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Well, I love that.
I love that we have a cousinout there extended family yeah.
So I got an educationcompletely by mistake.
I was in my fourth year incollege and I got involved with
tutoring at the University ofOregon and I really enjoyed it.
Like I didn't think I would,but I was good at Spanish.
So I thought like let's givethis a try.
And I really connected with thestudents who were like 18 to 24
(02:35):
.
They were frustrated,struggling.
They signed up for thisacademic tutoring service
through the university and Ireally just kind of it was
fulfilling.
It felt really good to have animpact on the lives of these
students.
And so, as I was nearing mygraduation time, I really didn't
know what I was going to dowith my life, like a lot of
college graduates.
And a friend of mine reachedout and said, hey, they're
(02:56):
looking for a middle schoolteacher at the school back in
Idaho.
You should really put your namein the hat.
And I thought, heavens, no, Iwould never teach middle school.
Middle school for me was adisaster.
I was not great at school.
So I'm like I am not going backto to like a K-12 situation.
I loved college but K-12 was adisaster.
But anyway, that kind of suitedaround with the idea for a bit
(03:18):
and then ended up putting myname in that I applied and I got
the position, which was just aone year sabbatical position.
So just you know, I thoughtit's like no harm, let's give it
a shot.
And I'll tell you I just Iloved it.
I loved working with middleschool kids.
I loved really what they did tome as far as like kind of just
my bringing me back to like whatis important, bringing me back
(03:38):
to, just you know, these kidswho are growing up and looking
for mentors, looking for peopleto hear them, to see them.
And it was a really powerfulyear for me.
And I think from that moment onI was on the path to getting an
education and, you know,continued my efforts and for
about 15 years I dabbled betweenmiddle school, high school I
(04:00):
was in independent education andpublic for a little bit, really
got into the internationalbaccalaureate and the IB program
and you know, all along the wayI really prided myself in doing
really creative, fun things inthe classroom with students and
making really powerfulconnections.
But it was about my 15th year ineducation where I started, just
(04:20):
kind of dawned on me like thatpower that I had was was waning.
And I didn't think it was me, Ithought it was the kids in the
classroom.
The landscape of learning wasjust totally changing.
Cell phones were becoming morepredominant, mental health was
becoming more of an issue.
You could do the coolest,funnest things and kids were
just in a different place,mentally and emotionally, and I
(04:42):
thought I can't do this anymore.
I think I'm think I'm through,just because you know like I
want to be there and have impact.
And I was struggling.
And so I actually didn't renewmy contract to that job and
thought I was going to justembark on a whole new chapter.
And I ran across Teresa Poppin,who is the co-founder of
OneStone, and she had OneStoneas an after-school program and
(05:06):
was like we are going to start awhole new innovative 9 through
12 lab school and we would lovefor you to join the team.
And I thought, well, tell memore.
She's like that's all I got.
I know it's not going to havegrades.
I know it's not going to haveteachers.
I know it's not going to havesubjects and classes as we know
it.
I know it's not going to havebells and walls.
(05:27):
She knew what it was not goingto look like, but she's like
what it is going to look like isup to our design and they were
really big into using thehuman-centered design approach
and doing a lot of experientialservice projects at the time in
the community.
They're like we're going to usehuman-centered design, we're
(05:48):
going to work with a group ofstudents and we are going to
design a school that does twothings that it brings meaning
and relevance to the learnerexperience.
It's going to be a place wherekids can learn about who they
are, pursue their interests,develop passions and really, you
know, make learning importantagain.
And I thought sign me up, let'stry this thing.
And it just so happened that myoldest daughter was moving into
(06:10):
high school at that age or atthat time, and I thought this is
what she needs, because I waswatching her come home from
public middle school with, youknow, four or five hours of
homework, just kind of takingover the dining table.
You know it looked likesomebody's war plans, with
textbooks and all of theseworksheets and things to do.
You know it's 11 or 12 at nightand I thought, like what is any
(06:31):
of this for?
And she's a happy kid, but shewas not thriving, and so I was
really excited to like, hey,let's thinking about end user,
thinking about human centereddesign.
Like I'm excited to work withmy daughter and her peers and
figuring out, like what shouldlearning look?
Like you know, what should thisexperience be?
And so that's kind of myjourney, to like getting to One
(06:52):
Stone that was 2016, where wekind of jumped in with very
little idea of what we're goingto do other than make learning
relevant and meaningful.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Love that, what would you say?
Make learning relevant andmeaningful.
Love that, what would you say,would I mean?
My next question is what's yourbig why?
But it sounds like you justanswered that you know.
Make learning relevant andmeaningful.
Would you add anything to yourbig why besides that?
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Yeah, you know, I think about my why a lot.
We do actually a lot of thiswork at OneStone and my why,
like my articulation of my why,always changes and so it's hard
to wrap it up in like a sentence.
But I think my why is really tolike help to support students
in their growth, whatever thatlooks like.
And so I think in my first 15years of learning I really
(07:38):
focused or in teaching I reallyfocused on learning, focused on
engagement, and now I'm.
You know learning is important,but the focus more is on growth
and moving from engagement toempowerment.
How can we empower students togrow in a way that seems
personalized to them andmeaningful and relevant to them,
which you know sounds reallyhard because every person has a
different need and a differentdirection they want to go in.
(07:59):
But as you start working withit, you start to realize like
it's so much healthier thantrying to get a room full of
kids to all focus on one thingthat usually no one in the room
thinks is important and can'tfind the relevance of why
they're doing it.
And so, you know, I thinkthat's that's my why is, yeah,
meaning and relevance, and thenjust helping empower students to
(08:19):
grow.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
I love that.
Two little bird walks.
I want to go back to.
You mentioned the IB program,international Baccalaureate.
I feel like this is somethingthat comes up a lot in the
experience or pedigree of thoseof us who are now kind of the
alternative education world,trying to chart a course for a
different system, a differentfuture in education.
So tell, just for ourlisteners' sake, tell a little
(08:43):
bit about InternationalBaccalaureate, just like 30
seconds on what it is, what wasattractive to you about it, and
like, does it still influenceyour work now?
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Yeah, so the the most of my experience in the IB
comes in the middle yearsprogram.
So the IB is broken into threeprograms primary years program,
which is like a K through five,middle years program, which is
six through 10, and diplomaprogram, which is an 11 through
12 program.
And I really, you know mydaughters went through the PYP
the primary years program, andthey enjoyed it.
(09:13):
It was very inquiry based.
And then the middle yearsprogram, which I taught in, I
really really enjoyed because itwas inquiry based and it was
thematic based and it was reallyon developing projects with
students, which I felt like isreally healthy for students.
As I got involved in the diplomaprogram, it becomes very
(09:33):
academic, it becomes very rote,memory-driven.
There are certain skills thatkids need that are, I would
consider, like durable,transferable skills.
You know the organization ofthoughts and ideas and you know
really developing grit andresilience.
But it just it was so heavilyfocused on academics that it
lost the individual.
(09:53):
You really didn't have time towork with the students in a
personal way.
If they had, like a social oremotional issue that they had to
deal with, it was like, hey,the curriculum's going, you've
got this big test in 20 monthsthat you're going to take your
senior year, had like a socialemotional issue that they had to
deal with.
It was like, hey, thecurriculum's going, you've got
this big test in 20 months thatyou're going to take your senior
year and we have to keep going.
And it really just kind of, forme, took my like I don't know my
(10:16):
interest in teaching.
I was like, well, this is notwhat teaching should be.
And so I love the IB, pyp,through Middle Years Program,
the diploma program.
If you are just looking for apeer academic experience, it's
probably pretty good as ateacher, not at all for me.
I did not enjoy that and Ididn't enjoy the fact that I
just really we couldn't stop andslow down and, you know, build
(10:39):
community in the classroom anddo things that were more
project-based.
It was really about rote memory.
So yeah, interesting I don'tthink that does the IB justice,
but that was my experience withit.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Yeah, no, that makes sense.
I feel like a lot of times,like there's this concept of
like doing what we do, like atPrenda or One Stone, and then
like as a counter, like quote,unquote real school, do you guys
?
get this At Prenda.
It's like we, a lot of peopleask our parents like school, Do
you guys get this?
It's like we, a lot of peopleask our parents like, hey, when
are you sending your kids backto real school?
And it's like, oh, just justbecause, like, just because the
(11:10):
learning doesn't feel painfulhere doesn't mean it's not
authentic, rigorous and likeeffective, Right, but there's
just.
And so it's kind of like weonly do K through eighth
currently and it's like okay,great, you guys like we'll just
take care of little kids.
Yeah, Like inquiry, Great.
But like when, once we starthigh school, like then we'll
like revert to what you'redescribing as like the diploma
(11:32):
program with IB is like thenwe'll start memorizing and doing
tests and like doing all thisstuff that we know is like
painful and quote unquoteeffective it's.
I don't think it's actuallyeffective, but you're, you're
taking a whole new spin on highschool, even at One Stone, Right
, it's not.
It's not this return to quoteunquote real school, it's like
even a leaning in to furtherinquiry and further
personalization.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Right, we don't really get mean, especially
because One Stone deals withhigh school students and you
know it is an independenteducation, so people are
choosing to come there.
So we don't necessarily get thequestion of like hey, when are
they going to do real school?
But we get aspects of that oflike, you know, parents being,
you know, especially in theearly years, really
(12:14):
hyper-focused on accreditationwhat are you going to do to
accredit the school Like thatwas going to have some profound
impact on their kids' experience.
And you know we get a lot.
We don't do grades, we're verymuch a growth-based skills focus
.
We don't focus on subjects, andso instead of getting grades in
courses, students getassessments and they're measured
in skills on a growthprogression that goes from like
emerging and developing throughadvancing and mastering, and so
(12:37):
you know we'll get a lot ofquestions like well, in that
they didn't have a traditionalexperience, do you think they'll
be ready for college?
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
You know, which is like the same semblance of the
question that you're asking,which is really funny, because
when we talk to our kids aftergraduating and they're alum and
they've gone to college orthey've gone off to the
workforce, they feel way moreprepared than the other kids
that are their age, that they'reworking with or studying with.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
And they thrive.
They're advocates, they knowwhy they are there, they know
where they want to go and how toget there.
They know how to learn and allof the other things.
Taking rote tests and crammingyour head full of knowledge,
like studies have shown, likekids don't retain that beyond
six to seven weeks, let aloneyears, and so, yeah, we don't
(13:23):
get the real school thing, butwe definitely get aspects of you
know in that they've done thisreally great collaborative, real
world learning.
Do you think they'll be able toyou know, transition
successfully to more traditionalcolleges?
And you're like, of course theywill.
They're going to thrive.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Yeah, I was just having this conversation with my
10 and 12 year old sons becausethey apprentice doesn't do high
school yet.
Like I mentioned, we're workingon it, but they're like I feel
like when we go, like we'regoing to be really behind and
I'm like you are sitting on apile of data that shows you that
you are like far beyond, likegrade level in many, many areas,
(14:02):
like what, and you youinterfere, like interact with
that data that tells you thatevery single day.
Why do you have this perceptionthat you're going to be behind
or not prepared?
It's really interesting becauseit's an honest question.
I don't know where they'regetting that idea, but they've
never been to quote unquoteregular school before, so they
have very little to compare to.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
And that of like being behind something like like
it's a that's even a thing, yes, exactly but it's this linear
progression that we all knowthat learning is not a linear
progression you know, and youknow it's, it's just interesting
and that's, I think, what thetraditional context kind of
instills upon you know, to getkind of like heady on it, like
on society and a greater likesocial understanding of
(14:43):
education and what it looks like.
Because everybody's noteverybody, many people come from
traditional educationalcontexts and they're under the
assumption that it worked forthem.
And I could argue like well, youknow cause?
I was K-12 public taught, I'mdoing great, I'm successful, I'm
happy I'm.
You know, I've got all thesegreat skills and I could say, oh
, it worked for me, but I lookback on it, no, it didn't really
(15:05):
work for me.
You know, I was not thriving asa middle and high school
student.
I was definitely surviving, youknow, constantly navigating
these like arbitrary rules ofengagement and arbitrary what
does learning look like?
This person at the front of theclassroom is going to tell us
and what's important to learnare going to be these seven you
(15:26):
know classrooms that you go intoall day long, where I knew,
like as a kid, there were likeso many other things I was
interested in, curious aboutthat, I wanted to learn and I
felt, you know, I felt that myinterests were not just
devalidated, but I felt likethat, like I almost kind of felt
like I wasn't worthy or like Iwas.
You know I didn't fit in because, you know, I wasn't connecting
(15:47):
with the learning that it seemedlike everyone else was
connecting with as I.
As I started doing research andstudying and looking at that
like there's a Gallup poll, Ithink in 2018 that talked about
engagement falling in fifthgrade from 75% to 33% in 10th
grade.
Engagement and disengagementlooks different in every kid and
(16:10):
so you can have all AAP or IBstudents who are highly
disengaged.
And that is what I was workingwith in the diploma program Kids
who were like killing itacademically but were not
engaged in what we were doing.
And they seemed engaged butwhen you thought about what was
important to them and what theyneeded and what they were really
(16:32):
dealing with in life, this wasnot what they needed to be doing
.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
Yeah, I mean they're engaged, meaning like they're
listening to you, but likealmost like at a spiritual level
, like they're like not into it,right, and that's.
We're talking about somethingthat is much more like we've
kind of bucketed like educationand like we've sliced that off
as like part of a child'sgrowing up experience.
But then it's like but you haveto be there for the vast
(16:59):
majority of your time.
It becomes this very, verylarge slice, right.
So it's like, okay, when you'resaying you have to be here for
all of these minutes and you area little bit accountable for
looking at the whole childmovement and their mental
wellness and things like that.
It's not like they are therefor an hour in the morning and
then they go have many, manyother diverse experiences, right
, it's like no, you're like themain thing here.
(17:20):
So we got to really make surethat this is not causing a
national mental health crisis inthe youth population, which it
currently is, okay.
So you mentioned one other thingthat I think our listeners
would be interested if you duginto a little bit.
You said the wordshuman-centered design, and I'm
familiar with this concept, butI'd love for you to describe
this for our listeners, becauseit's something that's typically
applied to like making a productright, like you're designing
(17:43):
software or something like that,and then to take that and to
treat the student as thecustomer and to really get to
know their needs, as you wouldlike if you had someone who was
using an app or a blender orsomething like that.
That's a very unique approachthat I don't see being applied
elsewhere.
Like you know, you see a lot oflike legislators and like
(18:04):
experts sitting in, sittingaround tables, far away from
children, making all thesedecisions right.
So tell me about whathuman-centered design is and how
you use it to build a future ofeducation at OneStone.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Yeah for sure.
Well, so human-centered designreally is the process that you
know another word for it isdesign thinking, but it's the
(18:37):
process that really puts theperson or the perspectives that
you're bringing to the table andidentifying those and, you know
, understanding yourpositionality and whatever the
topic might be, and not justputting that aside, just being
aware of that, and then reallygetting to know the person or
the people that you are workingwith and designing with.
(18:57):
And you know it's atremendously empathetic process
where you know you're goingbeyond just talking to them,
you're also trying to putyourself in their shoes, so
trying to design experienceswhere you're actually
experiencing their pains ortheir glories, whatever it might
be.
You're conducting observations,you're really just kind of
(19:17):
trying to understand theexperience of the end user or
the person that you're designingwith and through the
human-centered design process.
It's very iterative and so, youknow, I think number one is
identifying the problem.
You know, and I think it wasEinstein who talked about having
a certain amount of time, youknow, given a problem, and he
would spend about 95% of thattime understanding the problem
(19:38):
before solving it and just 5%solving it.
And I think human-centereddesign really does that.
It's like its intention is tobest understand the problem and
also understand the implicationsof the effects that your
solutions might have.
Solutions don't happen in avacuum.
So if you're going to disruptsomething through a new,
innovative approach, there'sgoing to be a trickle down or
(20:00):
downstream effect of thatdisruption.
And so, you know, humancentered design does its best to
continually be in a state ofempathy and understanding and
kind of perspective taking sothat you can design with your
end user person you're designingwith and then prototype that,
test it, step back, get somemore feedback and iterate Really
(20:23):
, like we see, like one stonewhere we've built at the lab
school is incredibly iterative.
We didn't build it and then youknow, go through an iteration or
two and be like well, there itis, this is what it is.
We iterate every year.
We're in our 10th yearContinuously iterating,
continuously reflecting, alwayschecking in with our students.
The students that we have todayare very different than the
(20:47):
students we started the schoolwith almost 10 years ago, and so
is the world.
You know, I mean, ai wasn't athing in people's back pockets
in 2016.
You know, a mental healthchallenge has evolved, and so
things are continually changing.
The world is continuallychanging.
And you know that's what wereally believe.
Like we say, like we don't havea set curriculum, but like if I
(21:10):
were to say we have a curriculumat OneStone, it would be the
student.
And you know, and that's our jobevery year at the beginning of
the year is to tap into thestudent, learn from the student.
What is it that they need, whatis it that they want and what
is it that they aspire, and helpthem tap into those and
understand those better.
And that's hard for a 14 yearold, but they get better at it
each year, to the point whenthey graduate they're like fully
(21:32):
self-actualizing, highlyreflective, able to
self-evaluate, liketransparently, honestly in most
cases.
And that's how we built theschools is to really build it,
so that we know that it's thisthing that's in continual
evolution.
And you know it's this thingthat is never going to be the
same.
And we often tell our graduateslike hey, when you come back
next year it's going to lookdifferent and when you come back
(21:55):
at your 10-year reunion it'sgoing to look even more
different, but it's going toreflect the people in the
building.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Yeah, I think that that's so key and it's
interesting because you'rereally so like when we make a
blender or an app, like there'sa body of people, the market,
who has money that they caneither elect or not elect to
spend on your product, right,and that puts that person in a
position of power.
It incentivizes you as thebuilder, the designer, to make
that person happy.
And it's so interesting becausein education, we have an end
(22:21):
user, right Like the student,who is not actually the customer
.
Sometimes we actually end updoing what the government wants,
or like a legislator, or like astate test wants, or the
parents want.
We were confused about who ourcustomer is, because those are
the people that are making thedecisions.
Right, the child doesn'tactually have any
decision-making power, sometimesabout even where they're going
to go to school, right, so like,why would we focus on this
(22:44):
person?
That doesn't like we're notincentivized to ever make this
person happy.
And so I think that it's so key, as we look at redesigning
education and iteratingconstantly, that we are really
clear on who our customer is,because, while there are many
stakeholders, like there's oneperson in that desk for 13 years
, right, like they really arethe end user, and I think just
(23:05):
so many of us get confused aboutthat, and that's why education,
like the systems we build one,they don't iterate well, right.
If you look at any othercategory, the iteration over the
last 150 years has beensubstantial and education
largely looks the same becausethere's no, there's no customer
at the center of that, saying,hey, I'm not happy, and I'm I
and I can vote with my feet.
(23:25):
Right, kids can't vote withtheir feet, they don't have that
power.
But we need to because we lovethem and we want what's best for
them.
Like, put them at the center.
And that takes it takes peoplewho are actually really humble
and curious, and I just feellike a lot of the people who are
have, over the last 150 years,been building education like
they know best, they have thedegree, like you know everyone.
(23:47):
Should they kind of sit in theirivory tower a little bit and
like, but boots on the ground?
Like there's a lot of pain inthese classrooms from teachers
and there's a lot of pain fromkids, and like we were, we've
kind of just been telling kidstough luck, this is how the
world is.
Get used to it instead of likeoh, like, yeah, we could.
We could be responsive to tothese concerns and we could
(24:08):
actually create systems thataren't terrible.
Like I'm running a middleschool micro school out of my
home Hadn't started yet, butsoon and like the tagline that
I've come, that I've come upwith when I'm talking to parents
, is like it's just middleschool, so it's called the
Wonder League and my tagline- iswhere middle school isn't
terrible and it's like oh,that's like a new aspiration,
(24:32):
just like to get past the notterrible line.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
We have these cool one-stone stickers that say high
school doesn't have to suckright, yeah, exactly.
But I want to like kind of jumpin on what you said there, katie
, what you were saying early on.
I mean it's a revolutionaryconcept because I would argue
that for the last 150 years theend user was not the student,
the student was the product.
The student was the productsociety or the industrial
(24:57):
economy that was expecting thesepeople to come out in the world
and be compliant, be obedient,fit into a career and get on the
conveyor belt and go work for30 or so years, retire and kind
of fit into this formula thatcreated this very stable economy
and stable society.
And the 21st century educationbecause oftentimes you hear like
(25:19):
, oh, stable society and the21st century education because
oftentimes you hear like, oh,21st century skills is such a
tagline Well, the thing about21st century skills and 21st
century education is that wehave begun to take the paradigm
of the student being the productand saying, no, the student is
the end user and they are goingto take their experience and
move into the world and designthe life that they want to live.
(25:40):
That wouldn't have done that,that wouldn't have fit in so
well in the 20th century, wherewe really needed obedient,
compliant industrial, you know,industrially equipped kids going
into a workforce that were ableto just do what they're told.
You know, in today's world, theeconomy is very different.
There's so much DIY there's, sothe economy is very different.
(26:02):
There's so much DIY, there's somuch need for problem solving.
There's so much that oureducation system is not
answering that.
We're realizing that the enduser should be the student and
that the student will go outinto the world with these tools
that they develop through theirexperience and design the life
they want to live, and so Ithink that's a, you know, kind
of a fundamental change in howwe're starting to see education.
(26:25):
And so, you know you mentionedthat word of like we're
struggling with the you know,the end user, and it's like I
think I think we haven't reallyfully articulated that the end
user is a different person thanwhat we used to design for, and
a lot of systems that are stuckare still focused on, well, what
do employers want, what docolleges want?
(26:46):
X, y and Z, and I think thoseare great questions.
I'm not saying that theyshouldn't ask those, but those
should not be the drivers.
That should be information thatwe provide to our students so
that they can equip themselveswith the skills with the
direction they want to go inlife and so that they understand
what are colleges looking for.
Because I want to go to collegeand this is what I want to
(27:07):
study.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Right.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
What is the workforce looking at or looking for?
I want to be a softwareengineer, so here are the skills
that I need.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Right.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
You know, moving away from this kind of cookie cutter
.
Okay, they've been molded,they're compliant, they're
obedient, they're now ready tobe further trained in whatever
it is that you need them to do,because they're trainable, yeah,
so yeah, that's my kind of mysoapbox pitch on human-centered
design.
I love it Perfect.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Okay, so I want to get to durable skills, but I
think it would be helpful forlisteners if you kind of just
like went through a quick day inthe life of what learning at
One Stone looks like, just likekind of high level.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Sure, every day at One Stone looks different and a
lot of students design their ownexperience.
That doesn't mean anarchy, it'sorganized chaos and it's
beautiful when it's reallyrolling.
Students engage in variousdifferent aspects of the program
.
The first one, since we werejust talking about
human-centered design, is whatwe call Design Lab and students
(28:06):
will work in small groups fouror five students and they will
spend the semester working witha community partner, designing
with that community partner tosolve a problem that they might
have.
That community partner might be, the end user might not be, but
they're definitely involved inthe challenge or the problem or
whatever it might be.
Those are all defined by thestudent through the process of
working with the communitypartner and identifying the end
(28:28):
user.
So, a lot of learning aboutproblem solving, collaboration,
creativity, the human-centereddesign process in its own About
a couple of hours, three or fourtimes a week.
It's a significant part of whatwe do.
They do a lot of research,primary and secondary.
They do a lot of field work.
They do a lot of writing inthat area, a lot of reading, and
then we have what we callexperiences, and experiences are
(28:53):
interdisciplinary learningimmersions where you might be
combining a math and science, orcombining a language arts of
science, humanities, whatever itmight be, to engage in
project-based learning that inmost cases is also real world
connected.
So we use a lot of ourcommunity as a classroom out in
the world a lot.
(29:14):
Then we have workshops whichare more academic focused.
They will be shorter, a coupleof days a week, focusing on
specific disciplinary skillslike reading, writing,
mathematics.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Are those taught by?
I know everyone has a mentor,I'm sure you'll get to
mentorship, but are those taught?
How are those academic subjectsor skills built?
Speaker 1 (29:34):
We have people who focus like experts in writing
and critical reading andmathematics.
You know people who focus likeexperts in writing and critical
reading and mathematics.
You know some of our coachesare well-versed and like jack of
all trades.
Others are highly focused inone area.
But a good coach at OneStone isusually someone who is able to
coach multiple disciplines, bothfrom a project-based
perspective and then just adisciplinary focus in the
(29:55):
workshops.
Then we have a thing calledcommunity read, where the
students are choosing theirnovels or whatever they want to
read and they work in kind ofcommunities of practice, doing
Socratic discussions and whathave you.
Another big part, as youmentioned, is our mentorship
program.
We've got a program we call itLiving in Beta.
It's our wayfinding mentorshipprogram.
The students will spend fouryears living in beta where they
(30:15):
are developing the skills andthe mindset to really identify
who they are, what their valuesare, what's important to them
from an existential perspective,and then from a more
experiential perspective, theyare testing their interests and
their curiosities throughinternships, job shadows,
passion projects, even throughtheir experiences or design labs
.
That they're in doing a lot ofgoal setting, a lot of
(30:37):
reflection, and they're pairedwith a mentor that kind of walks
through that with them.
We have a number of wayfindingactivities that they engage in
as well to kind of help elicitlike that sense of like
introspection and reflection.
That is like, say, day in a life, every day is different at One
Stone.
Those are the core elements ofthe program.
There's a lot more granularityto it as well, like, for example
(30:59):
, today and tomorrow are do gooddays, and those are two days in
April where we just stopeverything we're doing and we
get engaged in communityprojects.
This year we're hearing from aguest speaker who's going to
talk about a topic that'simportant to them and they just
really engage with the community, kind of in this effort to like
give back and to do good.
So we will, we will disruptnormal programming to do really
(31:23):
cool things like that as well,that are just like fundamental
cultural pieces where there'slike tremendous growth that
happens like in a short amountof time that we're not trying to
like assess or capture orwhatever, just letting them grow
and, you know, watching themchange as young learners and
humans.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Yeah, yeah, so when do you like, evaluate, assess
and compare them to each other?
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Well, we don't compare them to each other.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Hopefully you get my jest there.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Yeah, yeah, we don't compare them to each other.
We assess them on their skillsand every experience that I kind
of outline design labexperiences, community reads,
workshops we'll have certainskills and objectives that
they're focusing on whetherthey're durable skills or
they're cognitive, you know,disciplinary skills and they
will get assessed during thoseexperiences, oftentimes
(32:14):
alongside with the learner.
And so we have a rubric thatkind of spans this growth
progression that we use, thatlooks at the student in three
different areas that the contextthey're applying their skill,
the level of agency in whichthey're applying their skill and
learning.
And the level of sophisticationin which they're actually
applying the skill.
So they get assessed for eachskill that they're working on
and the experiences throughthose criteria, and they do that
(32:37):
alongside the coach.
So there's a lot of likeself-evaluation, where students
are learning how they're likekind of calibrating their
ability to assess themselves,and that's when they do it, and
so all of the assessments areaggregated across the curriculum
.
So they might have three orfour things that they're doing
in a semester that's reallyfocused on critical thinking or
research, or even vulnerabilityis one of the skills we assess.
(32:59):
Those scores that are assessedover the semester are aggregated
, so we don't look at like whatcan a student do in
vulnerability in design lab?
We look at a student'svulnerability across the
curriculum and outside of theschool.
We're even assessinginternships and passion projects
and things like that, so reallytrying to get a holistic
snapshot of the student and the24 skills that we're working
(33:21):
with.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
That's awesome.
Can you give me an example oflike the difference between a
durable skill and a cognitiveskill?
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yeah, certainly A durable skill is one that's like
transferable across subjects,transferable across professions.
It's also their skills that are, like, very helpful in
relationships, so not justcareer focused.
So, you know, wonderful exampleof a durable skill would be
something like empathy, orcreativity, or iteration,
(33:47):
leadership, communication.
These are all really importantdurable skills that, no matter
what you're doing, you need toeffectively communicate both
ways.
You need to be a great listener, active listener, and you need
to be able to effectivelyarticulate what you hear and
what you understand.
And so those are really durableskills.
Thinking about transferability,understanding that they look
(34:08):
different in different contexts,and so I've often used like
empathy as an example.
Like empathy and design thinkingis one thing where we're really
trying to understand the enduser and design with the end
user.
But empathy might look vastlydifferent in the medical
sciences, where you're workingwith patients, you're working
with families who are concerned,you know, in the medical
sciences, where you're workingwith patients, you're working
(34:29):
with families who are concerned.
You know working with a patientwho's maybe also navigating,
you know, the world of financesand insurance, or just the fact
that they're dealing with ahealth issue, and so
understanding how to use empathyin your particular field of
study.
So understanding like ourstudents are really good at like
identifying the ways in whichthe durable skills are utilized
and applied differently acrossfields, whereas more cognitive
(34:52):
or disciplinary skills arefocused on things like research
and writing, mathematics, thesciences, and there's still a
lot of creativity can beinvolved in those.
A lot of durable skills areused in those, but you know
there are mechanics to writingand they do apply across fields.
However, you know writing isfar more focused on a
disciplinary use as opposed tolike a personal, professional
(35:15):
use.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Okay, interesting, and you guys have like a system
like a, like software thattracks this, don't you?
Speaker 1 (35:22):
We do?
Yeah, we have.
It's in beta, it's being tested.
We've got nine partner schoolsacross the country that are
using it, schools that are in Kthrough 12.
It basically allows schools tomeasure and track the skills
that they're teaching andcoaching across the curriculum
and even, like I said, outsideof the curriculum or outside of
the school, and it allows themto develop what we call the
(35:44):
growth transcript, which is ourkind of our visual, with that
growth progression that updatesin real time as assessments are
our input.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
That's awesome Talk to me about like these kids
transitioning into college andthe workforce.
Like, what does that look like?
How do you call it?
Like, say, I'm a college and Iget a growth transcript instead
of like like, instead of a likeletter grades and an ACT score.
Like, what is what is like?
That bridge look like?
Speaker 1 (36:11):
Yeah, so when, when kids are applying to college,
they're asked for their GPA andunless they've gone to a public
school for like a year or twoand then joined us but they've
been with us for all four years,they put in a 0.0 for their GPA
, which is really nerve wrackingfor a student because they
don't have a GPA.
And we upload the growthtranscript as well as what we
(36:34):
call an experience tracker.
It kind of like it's like acredit transcript.
It outlines all of thedifferent projects and courses
and what have you that studentshave done in their four years at
OneStone.
So schools will get those twopieces of you know, support to
see what a student can do.
They obviously get letters ofrecommendation and you know the
same thing that all otherstudents in the US get, and we
have a very well-articulatedschool profile that schools are
(36:56):
able to learn about our programand learn about the skills and
the ways in which, like thecontext in which our kids are
applying these skills.
In a lot of ways colleges aregetting or in many, many, many
ways colleges are getting a lotmore information about our
students than they are about atraditional public school kid or
even traditional private schoolkid where they're getting
letter grades and symbols incourses.
(37:17):
These schools are gettingassessments and a growth
transcript on a student'svulnerability and level of
empathy, plus mathematicalapplication and research and
writing.
And so you know, that's thegame on for students.
They can really.
This thing really shows theportrait of the learner and what
they can do, and we work reallyclosely with colleges so that
they can understand how to readthis and interpret it, how to
(37:40):
understand the context in whichkids are coming from.
And you know, we've the growthtranscript that we've been using
has been accepted by about 190plus colleges, colleges and
universities across the country.
We have found schools thatoriginally said, no, we won't
take this to like now being veryopen and accepting our students
(38:00):
, and so it's taken a little bitof time to, like you know, not
win people over but to reallykind of put more fish in the
pond so they're feelingcomfortable with it.
But as they see that list grow,colleges are becoming more and
more comfortable with acceptingthese kind of innovative
transcripts, and so that's thework we put into it.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
I love that.
Do they still take the ACT?
Like SAT, does it matter?
Some do, some students do, somedon't.
Okay, and like, when you havemaybe a kid coming in and he is
going to apply to a collegethat's never accepted the growth
transcript before, do you guyslike call the college and be
like, hey, just FYI, this isgoing to be weird.
Will you like reach out to themand educate them?
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Oh yeah, we do a lot of it's very hands-on.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Very high touch Our college counselor, lisa Fisher.
She's amazing and she does anamazing job communicating with
colleges and then developing therelationship with them.
The thing about collegeadmissions is a lot of those
college admissions officers thatreceive transcripts are very
young and there's a very highturnover rate.
They're doing it for a year ortwo and they're moving on.
(39:07):
So you're going to like awell-established private liberal
arts school.
Oftentimes you know you mighthave a transcript reader who's
only been doing it for a coupleof weeks and they're just going
to be there for that season, andso it does.
It does require a very hightouch process and it does
require, like a collegecounselor who really knows the
admissions process and knows theadmissions officers so that
(39:29):
they can reach out.
But yeah, that's what we do andwe invest in that.
We also help students identifylike career.
If they want to pursue a career, what are the technical degrees
or certificates that they need?
You know what if they don'twant to pursue college, like,
how do they go find a job and dothey need additional training
or what is it to be successful?
And so that's part of ourcollege and career training as
(39:50):
well.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
Do you ever have kids who want to do like dual
enrollment during their OneStone time?
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Yeah, we unbundle everything.
So kids are welcome to attendthe local university, which is
like literally right across theriver from us.
They attend the communitycollege here in the Treasure
Valley.
They also like we've hadstudents who have attended like
zero hour at the local highschool for whatever reason it is
.
We also will bring in expertsin fields that we don't have
(40:21):
expertise in.
So we had a student who reallyit was important for him to
learn Farsi.
His mom was Iranian and thatwas something that he wanted.
The local public school didn'toffer it and we didn't have
anyone on staff that spoke Farsi.
But you know, he said give us acouple of weeks, we will find
somebody.
And sure enough, we found atutor that came in and worked
with them one-on-one.
(40:41):
We've done the same thing withall of our world languages
Japanese, korean, spanish,german again focusing on what
the students need.
We're not just like hey, we'vegot Spanish, french, pick one,
but you have to take it.
We want to know, like hey, whatdo you want to learn?
And give us some time, we willfind the expertise for that.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
That's awesome.
Have you gotten any oppositionto like trying to put this
forward in the world?
Like I don't know, as anindependent, like private school
, like you probably don't haveto fight a lot of those battles,
you can just exist.
But just curious if there areany naysayers out there.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Yeah, I mean they're naysayers for sure, right, I
mean they're like I don't thinkwe're as threatening as we once
were when we started to thepublic system, but they were
really worried that we're goingto take kids out of seats.
So that was a big thing.
So that was a big thing.
We had to rethink ourrelationship with public schools
.
Where before it was easy tocome into public schools and
really kind of market andadvertise our after school
program, which is like superpowerful for the public school
(41:34):
kids, they started closing thedoors to us, which was really
sad because they were stealingopportunities, robbing their
students of opportunities toengage with us and the after
school.
So anyway, so like stuff likethat.
And then, you know, in theworld of funding, funders love
to, you know, fund things thatare scalable.
They love to fund things thathave a lot of data to back them,
(41:55):
and early on it was like it wasreally hard.
We didn't have data and soreally developing data,
capturing the learning storiesof our students, has been really
important.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
You have a documentary about One Stone,
yeah it's called Rise, rise.
It's so good, yeah, if anyonewants to learn more about One
Stone, that's a great place tostart.
Right, fantastic, what do youthink?
What's?
I'm curious like what's nextfor One Stone, what's like on
your horizon.
Then, like sub question what doyou think?
(42:24):
We'll just answer that.
I'll ask you the sub questionafter what's?
Speaker 1 (42:27):
next for OneStone.
What's next is what we'reworking on now and that's like
can this model fit into othermodels across the country?
So right now we're partneringwith nine schools across the
country public, private, charter.
We've got a micro school or twoand we're working with them to
(42:47):
see like can this fit?
What kind of training do theyneed?
What does it look like?
What's the uh, what's thesystems that they need to
deconstruct and rebuild?
but that's kind of what we'vebeen working on other than you
know making sure that we're likereally sticking true to
providing a quality experienceat the lab school, um, and so
we're kind of growing ourtentacles a little bit.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
That's awesome.
I'm curious, as you're pushinginto the public charter world,
if you're, if there's questionsabout like, when do you
guarantee that all of these kidshave been exposed to the 10th
grade standards?
Like, are we still going togive them letter grades, you
know, like, what's that beenlike?
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Challenge.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
You know, I think it's really easy to teach the
standards in what we're doingand the way that we do it, but I
think traditionally trainededucators struggle to see doing
things in different ways thanthe one way they've been trained
.
So it's a challenge.
I think the mindset of theteacher is probably the biggest
challenge for us.
School leaders typically arevery open to like, hey, what
(43:48):
types of things do we need tochange?
However, they always have theirlittle oh, but you can't change
the schedule.
You know, oh, but we have to dothis.
And so helping them, likehelping school leaders
understand, like, how do youlead systems change?
How do you lead it in a waythat doesn't fully disrupt and
alienate your teachers butbrings them in?
(44:09):
Because this is, you know, it'sa fearful place to be a teacher
that's been trained a certainway and has done something a
certain way for 10 years, andthen having the rug pulled out
from underneath you, being told,hey, you know what, next year
we're not doing grades and thisis what we're going to do, don't
recommend that approach.
And so our partner schools doit and they're just like, no,
we're all in.
And so we really just try tonavigate the waters with them
(44:33):
and you know, I think being verythoughtful and design is super
important of education lookslike.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
It's like I mean, you can just answer that, but
you're kind of already walkingaround it.
Yeah, just take that one.
What do you think?
Not just like one iteration ofOne Stone, but like for 55
million kids.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
I don't know what the future looks like, definitely
can't predict.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
I was really banking on you.
Knowing this Chad, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
I mean, if the last 150 years was an indicator of
the future of education, isprobably going to look very
similar to what it is today.
Not to be totally pessimisticor cynical, I do hear a lot
about the impact that AI isgoing to have on learning.
I do hear a lot about the questfor the ultimate LMS and these
kind of like technology drivensolutions, where I think and
(45:33):
this is just me going back towhat kids need are powerful
adult relationships in theirlives, powerful peer
relationships in their lives andreally understanding what it
means to be human, and so Idon't think an LMS delivers that
.
Understanding what it means tobe human and so I don't think an
LMS delivers that.
I don't think AI has theability to offer that.
It does have the ability totake some of the busy work out
(45:53):
of it.
An LMS allows us to be moreorganized, but I think a lot of
schools are looking for thatlike really cool AI LMS thing so
that they can revolutionizetheir program, and it's like no,
we need to radically change themindset of those in the
building, and so it starts withthe humans, the human-centered
design part, and then we can gofrom there.
(46:14):
And so if I start hearing thoseconversations and I hear them
in pockets from time to time.
But you know massiveconferences on that.
You know typically we'refocusing on things like
technology or competencies.
I love, like social emotionalskills are powerful, but like
really more human centeredthings, I think.
I would say, hey, it's like arosier outlook because that's
(46:37):
the direction we're going.
So I get I get a littleconcerned about technology
solving our problems yeah, wherewe need to solve our own
problems first.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
I agree with that.
So the beliefs of the people inthe building so vital.
Those beliefs start gettinglaid down initially as we come
through the system right, butthen also in like teacher
education.
So that's one of the areas I'mexcited to maybe see some
innovation in soon is like Idon't just have a teaching
certificate, but I like chose tospecialize in like Socratic
practice or like you know, likelike there's lots of different
(47:07):
types of teachers that really godeep into different
methodologies, instead of justlike I have this certificate and
can teach in a public schoolright, because then I think
we'll get a body of teachers whowill like demand better.
They will not be satisfied and Imean it will take time, right.
People just need to retire outof the system and eventually, if
we're pumping the system fullof people with different, you
know, like a different goal,rather than like move kids
(47:30):
through curriculum schedule,make them be quiet in desks.
So my job as a teacher is easy.
I'm not saying that allteachers are like that, by any
means.
There are amazing teachers inour school system.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
Oh, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (47:42):
But just broadly like the belief system kind of has
to shift from the teacher'sperspective, the admin
perspective and alsolegislatively.
And I think we're starting tosee that in the school choice
movement, where we're givingback a lot of the power to
parents to be able to be thearbiter of what is good.
It's like, oh, this is good formy child and I'm going to like
vote with my feet a little bit.
I think that's a good, that'sgoing to help make the shift
(48:05):
that needs to happen.
But a lot of factors, a lot ofstakeholders, lots of things,
lots of problems to solve.
So exciting times.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
You know as much as I kind of ended there on a
cynical note, I mean, I do thinkthat there are, like you
mentioned, some amazing people,amazing leaders out there who
are really grappling with thefact that, like that first
mindset change of, like thestudent is the end user, not the
product, yeah, like.
Like the student is the enduser, not the product, yeah,
Like like questioning what isthe purpose of education.
And I think we are having thatconversation which I think is
(48:34):
like so meaningful.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
So you know, in that sense, in that regard, it's very
optimistic.
Speaker 2 (48:40):
For sure, for sure.
Ok, this last two questions,this first question, something
we ask all of our guests.
The whole point of the Kindlepodcast is to help inspire us as
grownups to become the kind ofpeople who can influence and
inspire, kind of kindle thecuriosity and motivation of the
next generation.
So who is someone that did thatfor you and helped, kind of
(49:01):
like, make you who you were?
Someone who saw you for you,believed in you who is that for
you?
Speaker 1 (49:08):
Yeah, there's a lot of.
I've worked with a lot ofamazing people in the
professional realm.
My very first kind ofsupervisor, school leader this
guy named Nigel Whittington,who's a middle school director
the year that I worked thesabbatical position and teaching
middle school social scienceand Spanish language, he really
just had a profound impact on myunderstanding of teaching and
(49:33):
learning.
And his very first observationof me came in the classroom and
he watched and whatever.
And then you know kind of didthe 45 minute post observation
wrap up how to go.
And he's like, first off, likelove what you're doing, super
cool, and kids all seem thatfunny and great, great handle
the class and like thinking thisis great stuff.
Um, and then he asked that sowhat, why are you teaching this?
(49:56):
And like like I thought thatwas the silliest question ever.
I'm like because that's whatthe guy who's out on sabbatical
left me and this is like youhired me to teach this stuff.
And and that did not suffice.
He was like that's why you'reteaching it.
Is that really like, is whatyou're doing important for the
kids?
How are they going to use this?
(50:17):
And I remember being sofrustrated, like walking away
from that conversation like ohmy God, you know what is he
trying to do, you know, and andso frustrated and really a
couple of days of like I wasyoung kicking it around.
I'd never questioned the roleof the way we do things and what
we do and why we do it.
And he got me to reallyquestion what I was doing and
why I was doing it and itempowered me to really start
(50:39):
with why and be able to throweverything that was left behind
for me out the window and meetthe kids where they were and
make learning meaningful andrelevant.
Even though I wasn't talkingabout it that way, but it really
just kind of struck afoundational chord in me that
from that day on, I was like ifa kid ever asked why are we
doing this, I'm going to havelike an answer that's important
(51:00):
to them.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
I love that.
Okay, and last question, justto wrap up how can people learn
more about OneStone, your work?
If they want to learn more,where do they go?
Speaker 1 (51:09):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Just starting on our website,onestoneorg there's a great
place.
We have lots of stories ofimpact on there.
There's a couple ofseven-minute documentary shorts,
a PBS one, one by Freethink andStand Together Great stuff just
to learn about aspects of ourmodel.
We also have various differentofferings and trainings that we
(51:30):
offer, um, and so you couldreach out to me or just through
our website, finding ourtrainings and like wayfinding
mentorship.
But I would start with our, ourwebsite, um, and then I'm.
I'm always open to getting onkind of what we call discovery
calls and just talking, but whatis it you're trying to do?
How can we help, or can I pointyou?
You in a different direction,and my email is chad at one
stone dot org.
(51:50):
But yeah, we're, we try to getas much as we can on the website
.
So there's a lot on there.
I would start there.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Perfect.
Thank you so much for your timetoday.
I've so enjoyed ourconversation.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
Likewise, Katie.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (52:04):
The Kindled podcast is brought to you by Prenda.
Prenda makes it easy to startand run an amazing micro school
based on all the ideas we talkabout here on the Kindled
podcast.
Don't forget to follow us onsocial media at Prenda Learn,
and if you'd like moreinformation about starting a
micro school, just go toPrendacom.
Thanks for listening andremember to keep kindling.
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