October 28, 2025 • 64 mins
The ideas of safe space and gatekeeping get traction around the web. What do both mean, and what is the answer to providing safe space while not closing the door on other interested people? Join Dr. Lee Ann Marino and guests Ministers Nik Lewis and Charlie Reep (Sanctuary Charlotte) for a conversation about gatekeeping, safe space, the need for balance, and the importance in making space for those who need it, no matter who they are. (Intro and Conclusion Track "Fire ball" by Yvgeniy Sorokin, https://pixabay.com/users/eugenemyers-40510887/. ACTS Seminary ad back track "Worship" by Ivan Luzin, https://pixabay.com/music/main-title-worship-151061/.)
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Episode Transcript
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The Revolution starts here.
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Welcome to Kingdom Now, the podcast featuring faith with an edge, as we recognize the Kingdom
of God within you.
I am your host, Dr. Lee Ann Marino, apostle overseer, author, podcaster, blogger, professor,
and theologian, and founder of Safe Ministries and all the works that go along with it.
(01:13):
I am excited to share this program with you.
As we explore the ins and outs of counter-culture Christianity, present as you live out the kingdom
of God in your everyday life.
Want to learn more?
Visit KingdomPowerNow.org.
And now our program, which features a variety of formats, peer, just for you.
(01:34):
Interviews on a variety of relevant topics, teaching and preaching taught everywhere from our
ministry studios to sanctuary and beyond.
And powerful insights here for today as we turn the world upside down, everywhere we go.
[Applause]
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Well, good morning, good afternoon, good evening.
Happy whatever time of day it is wherever you are and to our listeners in somebody name
a country.
Myanmar
To our listeners in Myanmar, we say "maingalarpar."
And I really hope I didn't butcher that.
(02:19):
But we hope that whatever time of day it is when you are listening that you are having a
good one.
And I welcome you to this edition of the Kingdom of Podcast, which is off to a rip-roaring
start.
And I am your host of Apostle Dr. Lee Ann Marino here as the Spitfire serving as the voice
of counter-culture Christianity where we feature the theme of faith with an edge.
And if you'd like to learn more about the world of counter-culture Christianity, feel free
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to visit my website at kingdompowernow.org, which that reminds me.
I need to update it.
So in our world today, we hear a lot about the idea of safe space.
That church should be safe space.
That different places should offer safe space for those who need it, particularly groups
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that are either under fire or marginalized for various reasons.
But what's the difference between holding safe space and the idea of gatekeeping or excluding
people into the vein of keeping certain things safe?
This should be a really interesting conversation, and for that I have that returning guests,
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ministers Nik Lewis and Charlie Reep from Sanctuary in Charlotte.
And they are both ministers there, and I'm going to let the two of you introduce yourselves,
and so I'm going to let one of y'all first.
Nik, don't shove in nose goes.
I'm going to let Nik go first because they were mentioned first, but I guess I'll go first
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because I didn't win the nose goes game.
Anyways, I am minister Charlie Reep.
They then pronoun user minister of education at Sanctuary, meaning that I am the go-to for
our Metanoia Sunday school program, and that is actually something that I'm working
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on right now.
I'm doing a graphic for it, so I love teaching biblical history and my favorite word is context
as Nik and me and we'll say.
I also have my own blog/website.
It is highly resource-based.
It is Beloved Not Broken.
It is B-E-L-O-V-E-D-N-O-T-B-R-O-K-E-N dot com.
(04:38):
So it's Beloved-Not-Broken with dashes in between.
So if you're queer questioning or deconstructing, I highly recommend checking that out.
I've got links to resources that help me with my faith journey.
I've got links, I've got book recommendations and then I have a blog that I update.
At least once a month, the posting schedule is hit or miss, but I try to post at least
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something each month.
Alright, cool.
Since I won the nose goes game, I will go now.
I am Minister Nik Lewis.
Also they them, Minister of music for sanctuary, obviously, and the worship leader.
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So music related stuff basically falls over my department.
I am a returning guest.
If you've been following the podcast for a bit, you've probably heard me on several podcasts
now, always happy to be back up.
I also have a blog that is nikfits.com that's N-I-K-F-I-T-S.
(05:44):
It's mostly pop culture-based devotionals.
Recently it's been a lot of Marvel and Epic than Musical.
One of my unofficial, official catchphrases is not to bring Epic into this, but...
Sure, we're going to hear it today.
Really, because for some reason, a little musical about Homer's, the Odyssey, who got a hold
(06:09):
of by an anime and video game nerd has permeated so many Christian thoughts I didn't expect.
So it probably won't make an appearance, but I do talk about other things on there as
well.
And if you want to follow me on social media, oh my contact page, it has my linktree, you
can follow me.
For their Twitter, I'm not as active on currently, but BlueSky and pretty much everything
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else.
You can get in contact with me if you wish.
Okay.
So, gatekeeping versus safe space.
Well let's start by kind of defining those two words for everybody who's listening, because
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I know that people use some of these terms very much, almost to the point where they're
overused.
So, let's start with what is safe space?
Oh, are we defining it?
Yeah.
Oh, okay.
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Safe space, I would consider any area, place or group of people where anyone can feel
welcome and not like they have to hide anything or be anyone else or feel threatened in any
way, shape or form.
Okay.
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Chuck, how would you define it?
I mean, Nik has done a pretty good job already of it.
I'm not sure where else to add, other than I guess in church spaces it might look like.
Having support for your specific theology or I guess churches should promote a theology
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that not only aligns with scripture and with Christ, but also encourages the people who
are participating in that community, I think about affirming churches and how a lot of them
create safe space for a marginalized group that would not be welcome at other churches,
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at best that be tolerated, but they would be told, hey, you have to change some fundamental
aspects of yourself or you have to admit that some fundamental parts of yourself are sinful
when they may not have the conviction that those are sins.
And so safe space, basically for churches is recognizing the, I guess, agency and dignity
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of human beings who are accustomed to being marginalized.
That was an excellent definition.
If I can jump in here because like I say, we're kind of sharing ideas and stuff, I like the
way that you guys both define safe space and I'm going to throw in here that there was
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a meme I once saw that said, shame dies when stories are told in safe spaces.
And so my definition where I'm going to talk about safe space and in order to kind of talk
about that I have to back up a little bit about where I kind of got the vision for that
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from.
To make the long story very short and I actually might do the story of sanctuary again
this season, I haven't decided if I'm going to update it or not this particular season,
but I have a message called Gimmie Shelter which was the story of sanctuary and it kind of
told the original story was that I had been somebody who had been in church my entire
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life and I had been saved for God knows how long and I was in my first marriage and it was
I want to say 2012 when it happened and I was living in my apartment and I was home by
myself.
I think that my first husband was at work and I was standing in the doorway of our laundry
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room when all of a sudden it literally hit me that my husband was going to die.
And it was so overwhelming I literally fell on the ground and the dogs I had at the time,
one of them in particular of the female dog came running over and she was trying to get
me to stand up because she didn't understand what was going on.
And it coincided over the next year with the experience that I was a Christian, I was
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a minister, I was dealing with marital problems, I was dealing with this revelation that I really
couldn't tell anybody about.
I started making plans in my mind, it almost was to the point where it drove me crazy because
I really thought it was imminent.
I didn't realize God was preparing me that it was not going to happen for another seven
years.
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And I needed somewhere to go.
I needed somewhere to go and as I would talk in Pentecostal fashion.
I just wanted to lay out on the altar somewhere as we often would say and there was nowhere
for me to go and do that.
And being melodramatic I said if I lived through that time which you know we all know how we
are with God, how suddenly we all turn into drama queens when we deal with stuff.
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I wanted to create a place where nobody had to feel that way, that was safe space.
And that was what would become sanctuary.
And to me it is those places where we don't find shame for the stories that we have to tell
for the experiences that we have and ultimately to quote another meme that I saw it says I found
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the world lacking in safe space is so I became one.
So ultimately more than just being a building or being a church where people gather or a place
it is the people themselves who create those spaces so that we can have those places that
are shame free.
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So let's talk about gatekeeping.
So who wants to define that?
I think Chuck should go first on this one because they have a lot to say about gatekeeping
especially in certain contexts.
And those certain contexts would be in the church which I know we are going to get ahead
of us in this episode.
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But gatekeeping basically I am going to use an analogy of there is like an open gate but
there is a bouncer standing in front of it.
And so although the way looks open the bouncer is in front and they are like you know weeding
through individual people and they are like oh sorry you can't come in because of XYZ.
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I think about in church contexts it is not necessarily in plot or it is not explicitly said
in a lot of churches that certain people are not welcome.
But if you are part of the queer community and you were to go to some of these churches
and want to participate they would say we will let you participate up to a certain point
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but you can't you know lead worship you can't be over Sunday school you can't have a
leadership position of any kind in our church and it gives the message that some people
are better than others and the ones who are being gatekeepers are gatekeepers I think is
whatever it is that they are inferior but somewhere in Paul because it is in Paul's
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letters is the idea that there is never going to live with any questions.
Yeah no you are not.
But there is no distinction between human beings that everybody is on the same plane field.
It is in Galatians 3.
Thank you.
Yes I am aware somewhere in Paul.
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So somewhere in Paul.
Oh am I going now?
Yes.
I mean I guess like what happened with safe space I don't have too much to add is basically
just keeping someone out or withholding knowledge or resources from people or a person for XYZ
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reason I would say.
A good point about the withholding.
That is a good point.
Definitely worth it
That is a good point.
It's withholding
It's withholding
Yeah because I kind of indirectly piggyback off of you Chuck because you are always saying
that like or talking about certain things behind paywalls and how things should be more accessible
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especially like seminary related stuff.
Well and that is actually part of why we went to a donation option for seminary because
like you say so much is behind a paywall and that there are people out there who do want
to learn but who just don't have the access because there is always a paywall.
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So you want to go to seminary, apostolic covenant theological seminaries out there you
don't have an excuse anymore.
Okay.
Exercising my right to piggyback off of the two of you with the gatekeeping in biblical times
they actually literally had gatekeepers.
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And I think it is interesting that when we turn over to new testament function we don't have
them.
That they were literally people who monitored the gates they kept track of the vessels.
I would say if we were going to kind of compare them to anything today like a modern version
might kind of be like an usher but it is still a different role because they had valuables
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in the temple.
And the temple like if you study anything about the kings and the battles and all that one
of the first things that the enemies would try to do was to get in and they would pilfer
the temple because there was stuff in there that was valuable.
Not to mention the stuff that they would pill for would be a slam on their God.
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So it was kind of like my God is better than yours and we are going to kind of hijack yours
and take all your stuff and then you can't worship your God.
But when we get into Christianity we don't really have that gatekeeper role anymore.
We kind of have an open door like Chuck mentioned where we are really not making distinguishing
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messages and ideas between people.
And the idea that a lot of people want to bring gatekeeping back and they bring it back
in a spiritual sense meaning like they consider themselves to be prophets or prayers or they
kind of are quote unquote minding spiritually who comes in and out of the church is really
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interesting because it has made the idea that we should keep certain people out of church
to be a spiritual ministry.
I have feelings about that.
Well I was going to say you look like you want to say something and feel true the only
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face I can see.
Not my fault but anyway it is interesting how you mention prophets keeping people out and
someone who is a prophet I definitely have feelings about that because prophets are about
reconciliation.
If you really read and study the prophets you will find that yes they delivered God's messages
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but it was a message of reconciliation break away from your idols turn back to your God.
The Father who loves you.
And to kind of play devil's advocate you do need to be careful about who you put into
your life in general not just in church because not everybody who walks this your life is
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going to be there to benefit it.
Some people may have a benedda against you somebody could take one look at you and decide
that they don't like you or that they are going to take you down a peg or any other scenario
that you can think of.
And the same kind of apply to church as well as we all experience in sanctuary.
But at the same time everyone should have access to Jesus.
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And I think there is a difference between discerning when someone is trying to start trouble or
won't be good for a church or group of people versus automatically deciding that someone
isn't welcome at that sense.
I think the key difference there is which I love Nik the way that you set it up because
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I was thinking exactly about how you told me that like prophets are spiritual guard dogs
and it's like we have to have some form of protection.
But at the same time like you are saying we can't be using your office to control people.
Like there is a it is that fine line between yes you have to protect the flock but yeah don't
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use that kind of power to control your flock.
And I think that echoing what the two you just pointed out and I am glad that you brought
that up because we do need to have discernment especially when it comes to what people do.
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So there is nothing saying that people cannot come to church but that does not mean that
every single person who comes should be allowed to have the microphone.
It doesn't mean that every single person should be allowed to be in leadership.
It doesn't mean that everybody who volunteers should necessarily be doing everything that
they think they want to do.
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And where the line for that comes in is one of discernment that everybody is free to
come to know Christ and we want people to come to know Christ.
And we should not be discriminating against people.
So somebody being gay is not a good enough reason to not let them sing in the choir.
That's not a reason.
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It's not a substantial enough reason.
And sometimes we need to sit back and we need to read spirits and we need to kind of discern
what's coming up as well as like you say who is in our life and what's coming at us because
we can deal with times where people become unsafe for us.
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Therefore it kind of nullifies the idea of safe space for everyone.
And I will also piggyback because we've talked about the situation we experienced this
sanctuary where we did like people in and they made church an unsafe space for us which
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can happen.
So part of the moral of the story is there is sometimes that involves risk but that's
a whole separate conversation.
It's because we are in an affirming church.
Where you are, where you've been, what you've done.
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I forget the last ad line but you are welcome in this place.
That's actually one of our mottos.
So anyone can and we do welcome anyone to come to sanctuary to check it out at least.
And even though we are in affirming church part of our demographic was the one who
among the hurting are dealing with problems.
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So just because someone may look at the part or look like what you are looking for in a church
which is a red flag in general if that's how you are going about it then that could also
cause problems.
So it's the whole, what is it?
It's in one of the Samuels.
I want to say for a Samuel God does not look at the outward appearance but let's have a
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heart.
But judges by the heart.
Yeah.
I got there eventually.
That makes me think of something that I read that this is going to very much challenge
even a lot of the ideas that we have about some of this stuff because I've met a lot
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of people who claim to very much be about the idea of safe space.
And they might be making safe space for certain demographics but they don't make it for everybody
which means that the message isn't really quite everybody.
But they're very hung up on it looking right or like the people who are there to be right
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that in other words we basically kind of all decide who we want and what we're in
and so when God really starts challenging us with that which God really did with that particular
situation.
And I'm also going to say that God continues to challenge us with it because who he's brought
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together in this season is very unlikely.
And in some ways very unusual and he's doing the work in all of us even though maybe it's
not what we expected.
You know I put the sign out there that we were going to be in affirming church and I figured
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we were going to get all these gay people and instead somehow we have a church full of
asexuals.
And all unrelated.
Right.
Most of us leadership or somehow kind of sorting out leadership and that we really somebody
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pointed out to me the other day you know what we really don't have any quote unquote really
stereotypical gay people in our church and when that was said to me I went you're not wrong
that you may have people who have attraction to certain gender but we really don't have
any quote or get gay people and I'm sitting here thinking okay God you know you're funny
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it's like you said yesterday Chuck how you know we go okay there's three options and God says
okay no we're going to do this over here instead we're not going to go with any of the
options but that God really is working I think on our gatekeeping that we might have
that we don't even recognize.
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The look on your face Nik.
Chuck are you speaking are you thinking I heard this noise and I thought that you were
going to say something so safe space versus gatekeeping so how do the two of them look different
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because like you're pointing out I think in some ways if you're not really looking they
can look a lot alike.
I mean there's an obvious thing that's coming to mind but I'm also trying to think of the
other side of the coin which is where y'all might need to help me out if God doesn't
drop something while I'm speaking which could very well happen but some of the obvious
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ones would be and I was joking with this about Charlie two nights ago and then I filled
you in on it last night mom but before I get to that I talk about pride protesters.
You know the people with the time with the Turn or Burn signs if you have those outside
of your church that's not exactly saying hey come inside meet our Jesus that's basically
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turn or else and we're not going to let you basically be who got called you to be otherwise
and I was telling those two earlier this week like say if I went up to one of them and
just as an experiment it was like hey so I see your signs and I recognize the error of
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my ways how how would I get to know this Jesus like what can I what would I do and I genuinely
want to know if they have an answer or if they're just there to you know preach hellfire
and brimstone or if they genuinely care about people wanting to come to Christ and I want
to see if they know how to plug me into a church know what to tell me to look out for in
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a church what resources to access any red flags to look for with leadership within the
general body within any of the ministries to see if there's a spiritually questionable situation
and how to learn about spiritual gifts and to best know where you can fit in with a church
and what skillset you can bring to the table what they tell you where would be a good place
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to start in the Bible so that you can start reading any other books or resources that
you can have access to and I really just want to mess with them just being like so I know
I should have a desire for my husband and I do want to get married one day but I've never
I've just never had that how can you can you teach me how to feel sexual attraction toward my partner please
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like I just really want to see what they say to that one specifically
and then I made the joke yesterday where because I'm I'm I like to joke I'm in the Mariana
trench of being at least being aromantic and how no one should compare themselves to me because I'm like
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perfectly happy being single I don't want to live with anybody else I don't want to get married
etc etc and I was joking I was like oh I would go up to those pride protesters too and be like
all right would you prefer if I were aero ace or would you prefer if I was a lesbian if I was
going to be attracted to just one gender but it happened to be women like what which would be
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preferable because we were joking that even though the church holds celibacy as like the peak of
Christian single living because those of us who don't experience sexual attraction are not
suffering because of it then we're doing it wrong actually something kind of hit me as you were
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talking Charlie that's the double standards play a factor into all this it's just like oh you can
come but if you are xyz like again say if you're a member of the queer community it's like oh you'll
never be in leadership just as a thing and they may not even explicitly say that but you can
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kind of tell it's like it's a kind of use an example let's say you I don't know work at an office
or something like that and the office says they value diversity and yet you look around with
leadership and it is very homogenous which yes you can argue it's like oh maybe they were just the
(30:34):
best people for the job and it's like but all of them looking very similar to each other
and talking very similar to each other you're really going to tell me that it just happened like this
so what is that
I think both your points are valid and I think that the first thing that you guys kind of
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addressed without even addressing it is challenging gatekeeping because I think that if we're
really going to be open and honest and we're going to just talk about the reality of human nature
the majority of people who are being gatekeeping probably are not really aware that they're gatekeeping
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or if they are aware of it they think they're doing it for a good reason they think that they're
quote-unquote upholding the word or they're standing on the word or that they have a narration that
Christianity is falling apart that everybody woke up one morning in 1969 and the whole world went to
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hell and the church went to hell with it and yeah I just picked a random year by the way and that
they have to be gatekeeping because if they don't it's going to all fall apart
now my mom listens to a station sometimes that I'm not going to mention their name but I noticed
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that they play a lot of music that some of it is so old you can tell it was on vinyl recorded
originally on vinyl and they're Christian songs and they're not all him some of them are just
you know older songs and I said so why are those okay but they won't play hill song or they won't
play elevation or they won't play maverick city now with maverick city we can think what the obvious
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issue is why they're not playing that and that has racism but they would argue well it's got a different
baseline or it's got this or it's that so you're rejoicing it because it's a different sound
and they don't think or see hey you know somebody might like that somebody might be able to
receive that that might really speak to somebody they're too busy preserving the way that it used to be
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but I also think that what you kind of raised with with Nik about the protesters and what if you
walk up and you have all these questions let's go with the standard answer that they're going to
give you is not anywhere near as in depth is all the different things you just listed now this is
what I would say if you are an affirming church at pride you need to do more than just
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hand out stickers you need to have answers and have packs of information ready like this one just
on here talked about ready for both protesters and people who are there well what should I be looking
for in a church well what do I need in a church well how can I use my gifts well you know
and the issue that you raised well you know I really do want to experience sexual desire but I
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just don't and how do I fix that or what do I do or what is God trying to say to me
what about those answers what about having something more for the queer community than just
you're okay the way that you are we believe that and we affirm that but what about helping people
through that struggle because I would say that's also part of safe space so safe space is about more
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than just hey we're okay with you it's really about creating the space so that you can be okay with you too
and I would also like to add allowing the space and grace for people to change because I think that
well I think about the example that you give mom and I guess this would be the other side of the coin
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that we may not think about or want to talk about say you go to a progressive church
or what happy or you are at the progressive church and you preach you know liberation justice
anyone can come to Christ you know all those are well and good fine but say you get a racist who
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walks into your door and you have feelings about that well obviously you're going to have feelings
about that but are you going to say they're not welcome here or are you going to say you can stay
but these are the guidelines we have and if you cross them we're going to have to ask you to leave
and are you going to genuinely take an investment in them to let them disciple someone
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and let God work on them that way because you can't really be challenged unless you come across a
situation or person that forces you to really evaluate what you believe and why.
Whoa I'd like to piggyback on that actually as personal experience like I grew up conservative Christian
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I think the first church I went to was like in the in the holiness kind of denomination and then
my family cycled through independent baptists and then we live in the bible belt so southern
baptist is pretty much all the all the mega churches around here and it took me well first of all it
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took me years to even come out with myself but I had there were definitely years where I was not
safe person for anyone in the queer community like I remember sharing on Facebook that
today about some miss America contestants I didn't care about miss America whatsoever but I was like part
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of that quote unquote like oh I'm being I'm being like a good ambassador for Christ by standing on
this biblical principle of one man and one woman in marriage and like that that was around the time
that same sex marriage was becoming law or it was like more so in the news but then God had a
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funny way of working on me that like it took literally like probably five years for me to figure out
like the whole of my queer identity because I definitely didn't accept it at first so it's just like
oh okay I'm just straight light or I'm just like you know yeah I try I think I tried to fit in the
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straight box a little bit too much and yeah how that works really I'm not straight so I will say that
the most challenge my faith got up until like that point had actually been moving here to
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Charlotte and it's funny Nick and I used to work at the same place Nik was actually my like onboarding
buddy on the job and Nik I believe you were going by they then pronouns at that point or you had
just decided to come out and use they then pronouns and so that had really challenged me like you were
pretty much I knew some queer people like through college and stuff but you were like really one of the
(38:03):
first queer Christians I had ever met and I was like you're super deviled and I in it in it it
it took like literally interacting with you on a daily basis and you loving me through my closet
at homophobia like I wouldn't have come out and say like you're going to hell but I definitely would
I definitely was judgy and so God worked on me for you that way
(38:26):
okay two things about that one because I also definitely grew up well different
operating in Charlie but definitely grew up the missionary black Baptist evangelical adjacent flavor
which is just as complicated and slightly big as it sounds so I was definitely not taught that
(38:51):
you know being gay or queer or in any way shape or form is okay and it took me a while to realize that
one I was in a closet and two to get out of that closet and I did that gradually and I think I
no I was definitely still doing it until after I met Charlie but so as wild that someone like me
(39:15):
who used to be definitely not say for queer people can influence other people to be okay with queer people
and then the second ball thing you did not strike me as judgy at all Chuck I appreciate I don't
think I even knew you were in four weeks yeah no it's yeah I didn't even know you were in four weeks
and it's like we have what we call inside thoughts and the judgment is an inside thought and I'm
(39:41):
very good at keeping the inside thoughts in yours yeah that is fair I know I some more people can
I will say though I think it's a yeah it's a testament to how God works in our lives that we don't
have to be perfectly good at the whole like being loving and being not judgmental
(40:03):
nica's thrown their entire self back onto their office chair yeah it's we don't have to be
but there's a lot of oh I'm gonna say to G or there's a lot of grace in this and how like
I don't know it's it's just a testament to how God works in that
(40:28):
first off it's the grace portion that we like I said we don't have to be perfect with loving we
don't have to have it all together we don't have to have all the right theology either
we just have to have that relationship with God and like let him mold us into it into what he
wants us to be but then the other side of that is I think it's quite a testament to
take somebody who had non-safe views even though they were Christian and to really change
(40:58):
their hearts and say like hey I need you to go be oh what's that what's that phrase out of
one of the prophets but it's about be a shepherd to the sheep about the peace lauderd or something
like that oh a shepherd the flat mark for slaughter that phrase it's in saccharin.
(41:24):
it smells terrible but yeah it's just like I think it's more powerful of a testimony for us to be like
yeah I used to be in your shoes I used to be like this you know homophobic and like judgey and all
that stuff and then God changed me and now I'm now like all of us are very passionate about inclusion
(41:47):
and diversity and all this other stuff and it's just it's it basically all points back to God being
this like overly gracious overly loving who can change the hearts and minds of people way
better than any argument code and it's just literally over these tiny interactions with people
(42:10):
day after day for however long it needs to be
you know you came for me a lot with everything that you said and I don't know how I feel about
it and I'm gonna sit here for a minute so no to be serious about what you're saying first of all the
(42:34):
thing that came to mind as you were talking was Saul to Paul yes and that I used to be a murderer I
used to discriminate against people because he discriminated against Christians you know we don't
call it discrimination because it was religion and Christian we was new but he had a bias against
(42:55):
Christians and you know I used to be that but I'm not that and how we all had to have those
individuals in our life like the one who was told go get him you know and and God had to say look
(43:15):
he's he's changed he's converted I'm gonna do something in him how we all had to have those people
in our lives to do that because I was kind of in Chuck's camp I might have not ever been overtly not
safe space I would say that I had enough training to know how to not really let on everything I was
(43:41):
thinking with my face but internally like you say I might have had judgments and internally I
might have had my opinions and I was not even really that public about them there was a time when I
tried more to be on the quote unquote right side with the politics but that didn't last for a long
(44:01):
and it's like I said earlier to have safe safe space we have to be safe space
and God has to do something in us and it is a testament to God's grace that he took three people
who really had very strong opinions about things and were judgmental and were two certain levels
(44:25):
whole year than everybody else and we might not have told ourselves that but we were and that God
really moved in us to make it so that here we are passionate about inclusion passionate about
people understanding the scripture that it is for everybody that we hey we don't care who you are
(44:45):
we want to talk about Jesus yeah and maybe that's the heart of this that we're missing that it's
not a script that you read it pride because somebody sees your sign and feels bad or it's not just
because somebody stops at your booth and I'm saying that because that's the other side of things
(45:07):
because a lot of those churches if those protests or stopped and helped to them they wouldn't or
they would argue with them or they would start something they wouldn't have that why are you doing
this conversation they wouldn't have the saw saw why are you persecuting me
we all got quiet
(45:34):
I was going to say if I did piggyback off of or at least explain to those who can't see why I just
more or less collapsed in my seat when Chuck was talking was because I have always
they're not always but definitely as long as I can remember and still struggle with this
that I have to be the quote unquote perfect Christian or also I'm going to turn people away from
(45:59):
Jesus forever and they're going to go to hell which the last part sounds very extreme and I like
kind of say it as a joke but also kind of not because again evangelical Jason that's kind of a thing
and I still kind of deal with that in the sense that if I do something wrong and
(46:23):
comment that gets enough notice people are going to be turned away from Christianity and not want anything
to do with God which I already realized there are several ways of wrong with that the first being
that I am not powerful enough to save or condemn anyone beside even my job but when Chuck was
(46:44):
talking about how kind of I basically influenced them to be a safe space ultimately that was a follow me
as I call a part situation and I definitely didn't have it all together I definitely was not in
the same place with my faith in as I am now but you know someone's still okay not to be not to
(47:10):
put it that way but to kind of put it that way there was something so attractive about me that was just
like hey let me get to know you and also let me see what God says about this let me talk to them
let me grow stronger to them and then we'd be keep having our conversations too
yeah so that was more of a like hey Nik Grace give yourself that
(47:37):
because I'm with you I have I have it's not that that the gracious what makes us wince and want to
slump in our chairs anyway it's very humbling that like you know we think we have like we we basically
think that I would say a lot a lot of a lot of Christians get hung up on that we need to believe
(47:59):
the right things in order to be close to God and that can quickly like turn into a pair of social
relationship instead of an actual intimate committed relationship with Christ which is a topic that I
kind of want to explore now that I think about it but putting a pin in that please yeah it's a
muffle it would be it would be related to K-pop of all things but yeah and how just because you know
(48:25):
something about your favorite musician in a K-pop band doesn't necessarily mean you have a relationship
with them you can convince yourself that you that by knowing everything about this person that
when you meet them they'll watch have a relationship with you but that's not the case if anything
you just come up come across as stalker and so it's it's very similar with that in that like we're
(48:47):
so obsessed with knowing the same things that we forget what really counts as the relationship like
at some point you do want to balance the knowledge with the actual relationship that but
in the beginning what really matters is the relationship and to see the love and I forget where I
was going with that but something about how just grace is a powerful thing and I definitely don't
(49:14):
give myself enough of it and it's a very humbling experience to realize that you've been given a lot
of grace because then you're just like oh I really thought like it forces you to compare your mindset
now with your mindset then and you're just like oh okay yeah it's it's giving the I once was blind
but now I see and it's like yeah back then I was real blind to the truth even if even if you are
(49:37):
an admitted relationship with Christ like as we're saying like we had these views that were
preventing us from being safe spaces preventing us from being all that God wanted us to be
and now that we have hindsight really back like oh thank you God for the grace so it's kind
of an ongoing like conversion kind of experience which shameless plug for an episode that
(50:04):
ran and I did back in what season was that the queer convert the queer conversions episode
I want to say the third or third or fourth where we basically compared the coming to Jesus as a coming
out experience and what's the what Christianity and the queer community have in common just from that
(50:27):
so I would recommend that episode absolutely absolutely and I think that maybe
what we're kind of coming to the conclusion of here is that the difference and the ability to be a
safe space versus being a gatekeeper is grace because in acknowledges first of all that we wouldn't be
(50:57):
here and we wouldn't have the insight and the ability to do what we do without it
well you can go and I am not downplaying education like I introduced earlier we have seminary you
don't have an excuse that you can't go now we have seminary we have we believe in education we're
predominantly probably in education movement I would say that that's probably true of the ministry
(51:20):
from its inception that in different forms we are about education but you can have all the education
in the world and you can be stuffed full of information and not receive the grace of God and not
be able to do anything with it I'm thinking of what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13 where he said
you know I can have all the knowledge I can conceive all the mysteries enough to move all the mountains
(51:44):
but if I don't have any love I have nothing and the same is true because the grace of God is an
extension of his love and if there's one theme I don't feel that we explore well enough today it is
grace because I think that people are afraid if we get into God's grace we have to let down the
gatekeeping that anything is going to go and we're saying everybody can believe anything they want no
(52:09):
we're not saying it doesn't believe in what you matter what you believe but we don't come to an
understanding of really understanding what we believe and what we need to believe without the grace
of God we cannot walk our Christian life without the grace of God we cannot lead anybody else to the Lord
without the grace of God and in saying that if we don't embrace the grace of God we are going to forever
(52:36):
be excluding somebody and justifying it with our own ideas about faith that really don't line up with
what God wants to do well we are just about at the end of our episode this move really fast I was
(52:56):
okay we really didn't know we didn't really know what we were going to do and I'm not going to lie I
had actually kind of thought about cancelling but I said no I canceled last weekend I don't want to
do that again because we need to get back into this we need to get back into the presentations of our
faith because I know with myself and with something that I often wrestle with is that I have to have
(53:23):
another job right now and I feel sometimes like that takes me very far away from where I want to be with
this and we need to do these things and we need to have these conversations because they center us
to know what God is doing in this season and what God is doing within each and every one of us right
now and while we feel like God is dealing with us and while we make the dying whale noises that Nick
(53:46):
talks about and every single time we step back in here not to bring epic into this but we know
that God or Pacific Rim was awesome we know that God is doing something in this season and he is
working us for something in this season so that being said y'all have been on before I typically turn
(54:09):
over the final thoughts to the guests or guests what is a final thought with all the stuff that
we've talked about that you would like to leave with everybody. So kind of piggyback off of the
humbling aspect of great situation I think one way to be mindful about being saved space versus
(54:37):
gatekeeping is that you have to change too and so do other people because everyone has as much
access to Jesus as an expert and I definitely had to change a lot of my theology because I wouldn't
be as an effective minister if I saw in some of the beliefs that I have prior to now but that's also
(55:05):
kind of why I have more compassion for people who are on like the turn of their inside because I
get it I used to be there but I got the chance to change and other people should have that too.
I'm just thinking about the grace part and I couldn't tell you what song this is it's an old
hymn but the lines grace grace that's grace grace that is greater than all our sins
(55:30):
dropped in my head while I was thinking about what I was going to say and so I think that when we
approach the topic of safe space versus gatekeeping or just honestly any topic where it's a difference
between inclusion and exclusion that what really changes people's hearts and minds is God's grace
(55:58):
it's no argument that we can ever give it's not the it's certainly not the action of exclusion where we
prevent people from experiencing God's love but it's the like Nik said the the compassion in
(56:18):
knowing that hey I used to be one thing and now I'm another God has changed me God can change you too
and just recognizing that it's it's not human effort it is God's grace that is in all of this
well after I sigh a lot and you know maybe drink some water because you know
(56:47):
got a hydrator die straight no right I am going to take it
deep breath and thank you all for being on this episode because I think it was needed I think it was
needed for more than just the people who are gonna hear it I think it was needed for us too
and I love when God does that and I hate when God does that at the same time so it's kind of like that
(57:13):
you know like that that emoticon of the gift I think it's a gift with all the fingers the
little fingers popping out yeah that's how it feels yeah I kind of feels like that at the moment but
anyway well I thank you guys for being on and how can everybody get in contact with you
so if you know me in real life I'm active on instagram but if you don't know me I would highly recommend
(57:40):
visiting love a dash not dash broken dot com that's where I have all my resources I have
a bit about my story which includes a link to the testimony I did for the Kingdom Now podcast
of Wild Back and then I also have a contact page it's titled questions but honestly you can just
(58:01):
use it as a contact page you know just send me a message and we can get to talking about anything
again I have a website I can also talk nikfits.com that's n-i-k-f-i-t-s on the contact page there's a
form that you can message me there but I also have a link to my link tree like I said at the beginning
(58:25):
of the episode that pretty much takes me to anywhere you can find me on social media
twitter and instagram on that super active one at the moment but if you do add me on instagram I will
eventually add you back I'm mostly active on blue sky and tiktok and obviously my blog so yeah
(58:46):
everyone get in touch with me I'm really about to just as as a personal thing say a little more
than high just because I don't personally know what to do with that I just I don't know I need
like a dialogue sorry personally I was gonna say something funny but it escaped my mind
(59:07):
I was gonna say what you could say hi back I mean yes but it's like I I don't know I don't do
well I know which I know what you mean it's just kind of like hi how are you today you know you
could say something besides just hi okay again no I'm just I was just trying to think of something
funny to say okay well I thank you both for being on here and I encourage all of you who are
(59:33):
listening to stick with us through this season because we've got a lot of exciting things coming up
I'm actually going to be honest in saying that we are recording this season all out of order so I
don't know when this is gonna air this could be like more towards the middle of the the end of
the first part it could be at the very beginning I don't know so I'm kind of recording out of order
(59:53):
but we're going to let God's grace order the episode so that everybody who hears it needs to
and that the messages conveyed and I thank all of you very much for listening today and let's
get some resources in your hands for some of the stuff that we're talking about today
so if you would like to read a book that helps you to examine yourself I recommend my book a
(01:00:16):
heart god can use the journey to the center of his will that's a heart god can use the journey to
the center of his will and one thing I am excited to say that as of the time that this will be aired
that most of my books will have undergone a makeover they will have undergone some editing and so
most of my books not quite all of them but quite a few of them including a heart god can use will have
(01:00:39):
been updated also recently released not that long ago was last year late last year was my book
ministering to lgbtq plus and those who love them a primer for queer theology and the accompanying
workbook and I highly recommend if that's something that you got kind of hung on when you're
listening to this that maybe that's your gatekeeper area go and get that book and the reason I'm telling
(01:01:04):
you to go get that book is because years ago when we did the first edition somebody told me that I
was writing on these issues to help straight people understand queer theology now I would like to think
that I'm writing for everybody to understand queer theology because even queer people don't always
understand queer theology but this is definitely a book that is written so that if you want to really
(01:01:25):
learn more about what scripture actually teaches about these issues that is an excellent resource for
don't be intimidated by the size just dive in and read it it's got a nice large font very nice
to read and ministers Nick and Chuck wrote forward so definitely get that copy today of those books and
(01:01:46):
get some knowledge in there so that god's grace can start to really infuse in you in different ways
also check out my pathios column leadership on fire at patheos.com/blogs/leadershiponfire
that's patheos.com/blogs/leadershiponfire said that five times fast it is a blog devoted to all
(01:02:09):
things related to leadership and so go there and get some information and check that out today also
if you are interested in seminary like we mentioned earlier in this podcast entirely donation based
we are not going to come after you we are not going to check your bank account we're not going to
do anything like that you want to apply today an apostolic covenant theological seminary that's
(01:02:31):
acts for short it acts176.org that's acts176.org also connect with me across social media @kingdompowernow
that's @kingdompowernow you can find me on facebook instagram twitter tik tock if we
still have it when this episode airs blue sky and beyond i need to be more active on blue sky because
(01:02:54):
i get a lot of response on blue sky but i often forget blue sky exists add me add me and let's start
a conversation about what you'd like to hear more of on this program what you'd like to do differently
let's start just talk @kingdompowernow also if you'd like to learn more about the world of
counterculture Christianity feel free to visit my website at kingdompowernow.org that's kingdompowernow.org
(01:03:18):
and if you are looking for a safe space and you are in the Charlotte North Carolina area check out
sanctuary at welcomeinthisplace.org that's welcomeinthisplace.org we have updated our
website with the most current info so definitely go and check that out today and this is Apostle
dr. Lee Ann Marino reminding you in closing we can date keep in a lot of different ways but ultimately
(01:03:43):
when we think that we're keeping somebody out the one that we're locking out from god's grace
and our experience with him is ourselves until next time be blessed
thank you for joining us on kingdom mail i pray that it is proven to be a blessing in your life
(01:04:05):
offering an on time word for you to learn more about this work ask a question submit feedback
advertise with us order suggested items be a guest or donate to support this work as our podcast is
supported by people like you visit my website which contains essential information projects
(01:04:27):
and other points of contact around the web at kingdompowernow.org also if you'd like to visit
sanctuary international fellowship tabernet sit in one of our north carolina or south carolina
locations check out welcomeinthisplace.org until next time this is dr. lee Ann marino reminding
(01:04:48):
you that the kingdom of god is within you and that means the kingdom is now
Are you called to ministry but not sure where to start?
(00:04):
Apostolic Covenant, Theological seminary, is here for you.
Not your average seminary.
Acts is a seminary experience designed for leadership in our modern world.
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(00:30):
Tuition is offering based, and most books are included in your monthly tuition payment.
Ready to enroll?
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Apostolic Covenant Theological Seminary.
The Revolution starts here.
(00:52):
Welcome to Kingdom Now, the podcast featuring faith with an edge, as we recognize the Kingdom
of God within you.
I am your host, Dr. Lee Ann Marino, apostle overseer, author, podcaster, blogger, professor,
and theologian, and founder of Safe Ministries and all the works that go along with it.
(01:13):
I am excited to share this program with you.
As we explore the ins and outs of counter-culture Christianity, present as you live out the kingdom
of God in your everyday life.
Want to learn more?
Visit KingdomPowerNow.org.
And now our program, which features a variety of formats, peer, just for you.
(01:34):
Interviews on a variety of relevant topics, teaching and preaching taught everywhere from our
ministry studios to sanctuary and beyond.
And powerful insights here for today as we turn the world upside down, everywhere we go.
[Applause]
(01:57):
Well, good morning, good afternoon, good evening.
Happy whatever time of day it is wherever you are and to our listeners in somebody name
a country.
Myanmar
To our listeners in Myanmar, we say "maingalarpar."
And I really hope I didn't butcher that.
(02:19):
But we hope that whatever time of day it is when you are listening that you are having a
good one.
And I welcome you to this edition of the Kingdom of Podcast, which is off to a rip-roaring
start.
And I am your host of Apostle Dr. Lee Ann Marino here as the Spitfire serving as the voice
of counter-culture Christianity where we feature the theme of faith with an edge.
And if you'd like to learn more about the world of counter-culture Christianity, feel free
(02:40):
to visit my website at kingdompowernow.org, which that reminds me.
I need to update it.
So in our world today, we hear a lot about the idea of safe space.
That church should be safe space.
That different places should offer safe space for those who need it, particularly groups
(03:02):
that are either under fire or marginalized for various reasons.
But what's the difference between holding safe space and the idea of gatekeeping or excluding
people into the vein of keeping certain things safe?
This should be a really interesting conversation, and for that I have that returning guests,
(03:25):
ministers Nik Lewis and Charlie Reep from Sanctuary in Charlotte.
And they are both ministers there, and I'm going to let the two of you introduce yourselves,
and so I'm going to let one of y'all first.
Nik, don't shove in nose goes.
I'm going to let Nik go first because they were mentioned first, but I guess I'll go first
(03:49):
because I didn't win the nose goes game.
Anyways, I am minister Charlie Reep.
They then pronoun user minister of education at Sanctuary, meaning that I am the go-to for
our Metanoia Sunday school program, and that is actually something that I'm working
(04:10):
on right now.
I'm doing a graphic for it, so I love teaching biblical history and my favorite word is context
as Nik and me and we'll say.
I also have my own blog/website.
It is highly resource-based.
It is Beloved Not Broken.
It is B-E-L-O-V-E-D-N-O-T-B-R-O-K-E-N dot com.
(04:38):
So it's Beloved-Not-Broken with dashes in between.
So if you're queer questioning or deconstructing, I highly recommend checking that out.
I've got links to resources that help me with my faith journey.
I've got links, I've got book recommendations and then I have a blog that I update.
At least once a month, the posting schedule is hit or miss, but I try to post at least
(05:01):
something each month.
Alright, cool.
Since I won the nose goes game, I will go now.
I am Minister Nik Lewis.
Also they them, Minister of music for sanctuary, obviously, and the worship leader.
(05:24):
So music related stuff basically falls over my department.
I am a returning guest.
If you've been following the podcast for a bit, you've probably heard me on several podcasts
now, always happy to be back up.
I also have a blog that is nikfits.com that's N-I-K-F-I-T-S.
(05:44):
It's mostly pop culture-based devotionals.
Recently it's been a lot of Marvel and Epic than Musical.
One of my unofficial, official catchphrases is not to bring Epic into this, but...
Sure, we're going to hear it today.
Really, because for some reason, a little musical about Homer's, the Odyssey, who got a hold
(06:09):
of by an anime and video game nerd has permeated so many Christian thoughts I didn't expect.
So it probably won't make an appearance, but I do talk about other things on there as
well.
And if you want to follow me on social media, oh my contact page, it has my linktree, you
can follow me.
For their Twitter, I'm not as active on currently, but BlueSky and pretty much everything
(06:35):
else.
You can get in contact with me if you wish.
Okay.
So, gatekeeping versus safe space.
Well let's start by kind of defining those two words for everybody who's listening, because
(06:55):
I know that people use some of these terms very much, almost to the point where they're
overused.
So, let's start with what is safe space?
Oh, are we defining it?
Yeah.
Oh, okay.
(07:16):
Safe space, I would consider any area, place or group of people where anyone can feel
welcome and not like they have to hide anything or be anyone else or feel threatened in any
way, shape or form.
Okay.
(07:37):
Chuck, how would you define it?
I mean, Nik has done a pretty good job already of it.
I'm not sure where else to add, other than I guess in church spaces it might look like.
Having support for your specific theology or I guess churches should promote a theology
(08:03):
that not only aligns with scripture and with Christ, but also encourages the people who
are participating in that community, I think about affirming churches and how a lot of them
create safe space for a marginalized group that would not be welcome at other churches,
(08:27):
at best that be tolerated, but they would be told, hey, you have to change some fundamental
aspects of yourself or you have to admit that some fundamental parts of yourself are sinful
when they may not have the conviction that those are sins.
And so safe space, basically for churches is recognizing the, I guess, agency and dignity
(08:54):
of human beings who are accustomed to being marginalized.
That was an excellent definition.
If I can jump in here because like I say, we're kind of sharing ideas and stuff, I like the
way that you guys both define safe space and I'm going to throw in here that there was
(09:14):
a meme I once saw that said, shame dies when stories are told in safe spaces.
And so my definition where I'm going to talk about safe space and in order to kind of talk
about that I have to back up a little bit about where I kind of got the vision for that
(09:35):
from.
To make the long story very short and I actually might do the story of sanctuary again
this season, I haven't decided if I'm going to update it or not this particular season,
but I have a message called Gimmie Shelter which was the story of sanctuary and it kind of
told the original story was that I had been somebody who had been in church my entire
(09:56):
life and I had been saved for God knows how long and I was in my first marriage and it was
I want to say 2012 when it happened and I was living in my apartment and I was home by
myself.
I think that my first husband was at work and I was standing in the doorway of our laundry
(10:23):
room when all of a sudden it literally hit me that my husband was going to die.
And it was so overwhelming I literally fell on the ground and the dogs I had at the time,
one of them in particular of the female dog came running over and she was trying to get
me to stand up because she didn't understand what was going on.
And it coincided over the next year with the experience that I was a Christian, I was
(10:50):
a minister, I was dealing with marital problems, I was dealing with this revelation that I really
couldn't tell anybody about.
I started making plans in my mind, it almost was to the point where it drove me crazy because
I really thought it was imminent.
I didn't realize God was preparing me that it was not going to happen for another seven
years.
(11:10):
And I needed somewhere to go.
I needed somewhere to go and as I would talk in Pentecostal fashion.
I just wanted to lay out on the altar somewhere as we often would say and there was nowhere
for me to go and do that.
And being melodramatic I said if I lived through that time which you know we all know how we
are with God, how suddenly we all turn into drama queens when we deal with stuff.
(11:35):
I wanted to create a place where nobody had to feel that way, that was safe space.
And that was what would become sanctuary.
And to me it is those places where we don't find shame for the stories that we have to tell
for the experiences that we have and ultimately to quote another meme that I saw it says I found
(12:00):
the world lacking in safe space is so I became one.
So ultimately more than just being a building or being a church where people gather or a place
it is the people themselves who create those spaces so that we can have those places that
are shame free.
(12:24):
So let's talk about gatekeeping.
So who wants to define that?
I think Chuck should go first on this one because they have a lot to say about gatekeeping
especially in certain contexts.
And those certain contexts would be in the church which I know we are going to get ahead
of us in this episode.
(12:45):
But gatekeeping basically I am going to use an analogy of there is like an open gate but
there is a bouncer standing in front of it.
And so although the way looks open the bouncer is in front and they are like you know weeding
through individual people and they are like oh sorry you can't come in because of XYZ.
(13:08):
I think about in church contexts it is not necessarily in plot or it is not explicitly said
in a lot of churches that certain people are not welcome.
But if you are part of the queer community and you were to go to some of these churches
and want to participate they would say we will let you participate up to a certain point
(13:29):
but you can't you know lead worship you can't be over Sunday school you can't have a
leadership position of any kind in our church and it gives the message that some people
are better than others and the ones who are being gatekeepers are gatekeepers I think is
whatever it is that they are inferior but somewhere in Paul because it is in Paul's
(13:58):
letters is the idea that there is never going to live with any questions.
Yeah no you are not.
But there is no distinction between human beings that everybody is on the same plane field.
It is in Galatians 3.
Thank you.
Yes I am aware somewhere in Paul.
(14:20):
So somewhere in Paul.
Oh am I going now?
Yes.
I mean I guess like what happened with safe space I don't have too much to add is basically
just keeping someone out or withholding knowledge or resources from people or a person for XYZ
(14:46):
reason I would say.
A good point about the withholding.
That is a good point.
Definitely worth it
That is a good point.
It's withholding
It's withholding
Yeah because I kind of indirectly piggyback off of you Chuck because you are always saying
that like or talking about certain things behind paywalls and how things should be more accessible
(15:11):
especially like seminary related stuff.
Well and that is actually part of why we went to a donation option for seminary because
like you say so much is behind a paywall and that there are people out there who do want
to learn but who just don't have the access because there is always a paywall.
(15:37):
So you want to go to seminary, apostolic covenant theological seminaries out there you
don't have an excuse anymore.
Okay.
Exercising my right to piggyback off of the two of you with the gatekeeping in biblical times
they actually literally had gatekeepers.
(15:57):
And I think it is interesting that when we turn over to new testament function we don't have
them.
That they were literally people who monitored the gates they kept track of the vessels.
I would say if we were going to kind of compare them to anything today like a modern version
might kind of be like an usher but it is still a different role because they had valuables
(16:22):
in the temple.
And the temple like if you study anything about the kings and the battles and all that one
of the first things that the enemies would try to do was to get in and they would pilfer
the temple because there was stuff in there that was valuable.
Not to mention the stuff that they would pill for would be a slam on their God.
(16:42):
So it was kind of like my God is better than yours and we are going to kind of hijack yours
and take all your stuff and then you can't worship your God.
But when we get into Christianity we don't really have that gatekeeper role anymore.
We kind of have an open door like Chuck mentioned where we are really not making distinguishing
(17:03):
messages and ideas between people.
And the idea that a lot of people want to bring gatekeeping back and they bring it back
in a spiritual sense meaning like they consider themselves to be prophets or prayers or they
kind of are quote unquote minding spiritually who comes in and out of the church is really
(17:28):
interesting because it has made the idea that we should keep certain people out of church
to be a spiritual ministry.
I have feelings about that.
Well I was going to say you look like you want to say something and feel true the only
(17:49):
face I can see.
Not my fault but anyway it is interesting how you mention prophets keeping people out and
someone who is a prophet I definitely have feelings about that because prophets are about
reconciliation.
If you really read and study the prophets you will find that yes they delivered God's messages
(18:13):
but it was a message of reconciliation break away from your idols turn back to your God.
The Father who loves you.
And to kind of play devil's advocate you do need to be careful about who you put into
your life in general not just in church because not everybody who walks this your life is
(18:36):
going to be there to benefit it.
Some people may have a benedda against you somebody could take one look at you and decide
that they don't like you or that they are going to take you down a peg or any other scenario
that you can think of.
And the same kind of apply to church as well as we all experience in sanctuary.
But at the same time everyone should have access to Jesus.
(19:03):
And I think there is a difference between discerning when someone is trying to start trouble or
won't be good for a church or group of people versus automatically deciding that someone
isn't welcome at that sense.
I think the key difference there is which I love Nik the way that you set it up because
(19:26):
I was thinking exactly about how you told me that like prophets are spiritual guard dogs
and it's like we have to have some form of protection.
But at the same time like you are saying we can't be using your office to control people.
Like there is a it is that fine line between yes you have to protect the flock but yeah don't
(19:53):
use that kind of power to control your flock.
And I think that echoing what the two you just pointed out and I am glad that you brought
that up because we do need to have discernment especially when it comes to what people do.
(20:15):
So there is nothing saying that people cannot come to church but that does not mean that
every single person who comes should be allowed to have the microphone.
It doesn't mean that every single person should be allowed to be in leadership.
It doesn't mean that everybody who volunteers should necessarily be doing everything that
they think they want to do.
(20:35):
And where the line for that comes in is one of discernment that everybody is free to
come to know Christ and we want people to come to know Christ.
And we should not be discriminating against people.
So somebody being gay is not a good enough reason to not let them sing in the choir.
That's not a reason.
(20:56):
It's not a substantial enough reason.
And sometimes we need to sit back and we need to read spirits and we need to kind of discern
what's coming up as well as like you say who is in our life and what's coming at us because
we can deal with times where people become unsafe for us.
(21:18):
Therefore it kind of nullifies the idea of safe space for everyone.
And I will also piggyback because we've talked about the situation we experienced this
sanctuary where we did like people in and they made church an unsafe space for us which
(21:41):
can happen.
So part of the moral of the story is there is sometimes that involves risk but that's
a whole separate conversation.
It's because we are in an affirming church.
Where you are, where you've been, what you've done.
(22:02):
I forget the last ad line but you are welcome in this place.
That's actually one of our mottos.
So anyone can and we do welcome anyone to come to sanctuary to check it out at least.
And even though we are in affirming church part of our demographic was the one who
among the hurting are dealing with problems.
(22:24):
So just because someone may look at the part or look like what you are looking for in a church
which is a red flag in general if that's how you are going about it then that could also
cause problems.
So it's the whole, what is it?
It's in one of the Samuels.
I want to say for a Samuel God does not look at the outward appearance but let's have a
(22:48):
heart.
But judges by the heart.
Yeah.
I got there eventually.
That makes me think of something that I read that this is going to very much challenge
even a lot of the ideas that we have about some of this stuff because I've met a lot
(23:09):
of people who claim to very much be about the idea of safe space.
And they might be making safe space for certain demographics but they don't make it for everybody
which means that the message isn't really quite everybody.
But they're very hung up on it looking right or like the people who are there to be right
(23:33):
that in other words we basically kind of all decide who we want and what we're in
and so when God really starts challenging us with that which God really did with that particular
situation.
And I'm also going to say that God continues to challenge us with it because who he's brought
(23:55):
together in this season is very unlikely.
And in some ways very unusual and he's doing the work in all of us even though maybe it's
not what we expected.
You know I put the sign out there that we were going to be in affirming church and I figured
(24:18):
we were going to get all these gay people and instead somehow we have a church full of
asexuals.
And all unrelated.
Right.
Most of us leadership or somehow kind of sorting out leadership and that we really somebody
(24:40):
pointed out to me the other day you know what we really don't have any quote unquote really
stereotypical gay people in our church and when that was said to me I went you're not wrong
that you may have people who have attraction to certain gender but we really don't have
any quote or get gay people and I'm sitting here thinking okay God you know you're funny
(25:02):
it's like you said yesterday Chuck how you know we go okay there's three options and God says
okay no we're going to do this over here instead we're not going to go with any of the
options but that God really is working I think on our gatekeeping that we might have
that we don't even recognize.
(25:28):
The look on your face Nik.
Chuck are you speaking are you thinking I heard this noise and I thought that you were
going to say something so safe space versus gatekeeping so how do the two of them look different
(26:09):
because like you're pointing out I think in some ways if you're not really looking they
can look a lot alike.
I mean there's an obvious thing that's coming to mind but I'm also trying to think of the
other side of the coin which is where y'all might need to help me out if God doesn't
drop something while I'm speaking which could very well happen but some of the obvious
(26:32):
ones would be and I was joking with this about Charlie two nights ago and then I filled
you in on it last night mom but before I get to that I talk about pride protesters.
You know the people with the time with the Turn or Burn signs if you have those outside
of your church that's not exactly saying hey come inside meet our Jesus that's basically
(26:57):
turn or else and we're not going to let you basically be who got called you to be otherwise
and I was telling those two earlier this week like say if I went up to one of them and
just as an experiment it was like hey so I see your signs and I recognize the error of
(27:21):
my ways how how would I get to know this Jesus like what can I what would I do and I genuinely
want to know if they have an answer or if they're just there to you know preach hellfire
and brimstone or if they genuinely care about people wanting to come to Christ and I want
to see if they know how to plug me into a church know what to tell me to look out for in
(27:47):
a church what resources to access any red flags to look for with leadership within the
general body within any of the ministries to see if there's a spiritually questionable situation
and how to learn about spiritual gifts and to best know where you can fit in with a church
and what skillset you can bring to the table what they tell you where would be a good place
(28:11):
to start in the Bible so that you can start reading any other books or resources that
you can have access to and I really just want to mess with them just being like so I know
I should have a desire for my husband and I do want to get married one day but I've never
I've just never had that how can you can you teach me how to feel sexual attraction toward my partner please
(28:37):
like I just really want to see what they say to that one specifically
and then I made the joke yesterday where because I'm I'm I like to joke I'm in the Mariana
trench of being at least being aromantic and how no one should compare themselves to me because I'm like
(28:58):
perfectly happy being single I don't want to live with anybody else I don't want to get married
etc etc and I was joking I was like oh I would go up to those pride protesters too and be like
all right would you prefer if I were aero ace or would you prefer if I was a lesbian if I was
going to be attracted to just one gender but it happened to be women like what which would be
(29:25):
preferable because we were joking that even though the church holds celibacy as like the peak of
Christian single living because those of us who don't experience sexual attraction are not
suffering because of it then we're doing it wrong actually something kind of hit me as you were
(29:49):
talking Charlie that's the double standards play a factor into all this it's just like oh you can
come but if you are xyz like again say if you're a member of the queer community it's like oh you'll
never be in leadership just as a thing and they may not even explicitly say that but you can
(30:10):
kind of tell it's like it's a kind of use an example let's say you I don't know work at an office
or something like that and the office says they value diversity and yet you look around with
leadership and it is very homogenous which yes you can argue it's like oh maybe they were just the
(30:34):
best people for the job and it's like but all of them looking very similar to each other
and talking very similar to each other you're really going to tell me that it just happened like this
so what is that
I think both your points are valid and I think that the first thing that you guys kind of
(31:02):
addressed without even addressing it is challenging gatekeeping because I think that if we're
really going to be open and honest and we're going to just talk about the reality of human nature
the majority of people who are being gatekeeping probably are not really aware that they're gatekeeping
(31:23):
or if they are aware of it they think they're doing it for a good reason they think that they're
quote-unquote upholding the word or they're standing on the word or that they have a narration that
Christianity is falling apart that everybody woke up one morning in 1969 and the whole world went to
(31:44):
hell and the church went to hell with it and yeah I just picked a random year by the way and that
they have to be gatekeeping because if they don't it's going to all fall apart
now my mom listens to a station sometimes that I'm not going to mention their name but I noticed
(32:08):
that they play a lot of music that some of it is so old you can tell it was on vinyl recorded
originally on vinyl and they're Christian songs and they're not all him some of them are just
you know older songs and I said so why are those okay but they won't play hill song or they won't
play elevation or they won't play maverick city now with maverick city we can think what the obvious
(32:33):
issue is why they're not playing that and that has racism but they would argue well it's got a different
baseline or it's got this or it's that so you're rejoicing it because it's a different sound
and they don't think or see hey you know somebody might like that somebody might be able to
receive that that might really speak to somebody they're too busy preserving the way that it used to be
(32:57):
but I also think that what you kind of raised with with Nik about the protesters and what if you
walk up and you have all these questions let's go with the standard answer that they're going to
give you is not anywhere near as in depth is all the different things you just listed now this is
what I would say if you are an affirming church at pride you need to do more than just
(33:22):
hand out stickers you need to have answers and have packs of information ready like this one just
on here talked about ready for both protesters and people who are there well what should I be looking
for in a church well what do I need in a church well how can I use my gifts well you know
and the issue that you raised well you know I really do want to experience sexual desire but I
(33:46):
just don't and how do I fix that or what do I do or what is God trying to say to me
what about those answers what about having something more for the queer community than just
you're okay the way that you are we believe that and we affirm that but what about helping people
through that struggle because I would say that's also part of safe space so safe space is about more
(34:12):
than just hey we're okay with you it's really about creating the space so that you can be okay with you too
and I would also like to add allowing the space and grace for people to change because I think that
well I think about the example that you give mom and I guess this would be the other side of the coin
(34:38):
that we may not think about or want to talk about say you go to a progressive church
or what happy or you are at the progressive church and you preach you know liberation justice
anyone can come to Christ you know all those are well and good fine but say you get a racist who
(34:59):
walks into your door and you have feelings about that well obviously you're going to have feelings
about that but are you going to say they're not welcome here or are you going to say you can stay
but these are the guidelines we have and if you cross them we're going to have to ask you to leave
and are you going to genuinely take an investment in them to let them disciple someone
(35:26):
and let God work on them that way because you can't really be challenged unless you come across a
situation or person that forces you to really evaluate what you believe and why.
Whoa I'd like to piggyback on that actually as personal experience like I grew up conservative Christian
(35:51):
I think the first church I went to was like in the in the holiness kind of denomination and then
my family cycled through independent baptists and then we live in the bible belt so southern
baptist is pretty much all the all the mega churches around here and it took me well first of all it
(36:12):
took me years to even come out with myself but I had there were definitely years where I was not
safe person for anyone in the queer community like I remember sharing on Facebook that
today about some miss America contestants I didn't care about miss America whatsoever but I was like part
(36:33):
of that quote unquote like oh I'm being I'm being like a good ambassador for Christ by standing on
this biblical principle of one man and one woman in marriage and like that that was around the time
that same sex marriage was becoming law or it was like more so in the news but then God had a
(36:55):
funny way of working on me that like it took literally like probably five years for me to figure out
like the whole of my queer identity because I definitely didn't accept it at first so it's just like
oh okay I'm just straight light or I'm just like you know yeah I try I think I tried to fit in the
(37:17):
straight box a little bit too much and yeah how that works really I'm not straight so I will say that
the most challenge my faith got up until like that point had actually been moving here to
(37:37):
Charlotte and it's funny Nick and I used to work at the same place Nik was actually my like onboarding
buddy on the job and Nik I believe you were going by they then pronouns at that point or you had
just decided to come out and use they then pronouns and so that had really challenged me like you were
pretty much I knew some queer people like through college and stuff but you were like really one of the
(38:03):
first queer Christians I had ever met and I was like you're super deviled and I in it in it it
it took like literally interacting with you on a daily basis and you loving me through my closet
at homophobia like I wouldn't have come out and say like you're going to hell but I definitely would
I definitely was judgy and so God worked on me for you that way
(38:26):
okay two things about that one because I also definitely grew up well different
operating in Charlie but definitely grew up the missionary black Baptist evangelical adjacent flavor
which is just as complicated and slightly big as it sounds so I was definitely not taught that
(38:51):
you know being gay or queer or in any way shape or form is okay and it took me a while to realize that
one I was in a closet and two to get out of that closet and I did that gradually and I think I
no I was definitely still doing it until after I met Charlie but so as wild that someone like me
(39:15):
who used to be definitely not say for queer people can influence other people to be okay with queer people
and then the second ball thing you did not strike me as judgy at all Chuck I appreciate I don't
think I even knew you were in four weeks yeah no it's yeah I didn't even know you were in four weeks
and it's like we have what we call inside thoughts and the judgment is an inside thought and I'm
(39:41):
very good at keeping the inside thoughts in yours yeah that is fair I know I some more people can
I will say though I think it's a yeah it's a testament to how God works in our lives that we don't
have to be perfectly good at the whole like being loving and being not judgmental
(40:03):
nica's thrown their entire self back onto their office chair yeah it's we don't have to be
but there's a lot of oh I'm gonna say to G or there's a lot of grace in this and how like
I don't know it's it's just a testament to how God works in that
(40:28):
first off it's the grace portion that we like I said we don't have to be perfect with loving we
don't have to have it all together we don't have to have all the right theology either
we just have to have that relationship with God and like let him mold us into it into what he
wants us to be but then the other side of that is I think it's quite a testament to
take somebody who had non-safe views even though they were Christian and to really change
(40:58):
their hearts and say like hey I need you to go be oh what's that what's that phrase out of
one of the prophets but it's about be a shepherd to the sheep about the peace lauderd or something
like that oh a shepherd the flat mark for slaughter that phrase it's in saccharin.
(41:24):
it smells terrible but yeah it's just like I think it's more powerful of a testimony for us to be like
yeah I used to be in your shoes I used to be like this you know homophobic and like judgey and all
that stuff and then God changed me and now I'm now like all of us are very passionate about inclusion
(41:47):
and diversity and all this other stuff and it's just it's it basically all points back to God being
this like overly gracious overly loving who can change the hearts and minds of people way
better than any argument code and it's just literally over these tiny interactions with people
(42:10):
day after day for however long it needs to be
you know you came for me a lot with everything that you said and I don't know how I feel about
it and I'm gonna sit here for a minute so no to be serious about what you're saying first of all the
(42:34):
thing that came to mind as you were talking was Saul to Paul yes and that I used to be a murderer I
used to discriminate against people because he discriminated against Christians you know we don't
call it discrimination because it was religion and Christian we was new but he had a bias against
(42:55):
Christians and you know I used to be that but I'm not that and how we all had to have those
individuals in our life like the one who was told go get him you know and and God had to say look
(43:15):
he's he's changed he's converted I'm gonna do something in him how we all had to have those people
in our lives to do that because I was kind of in Chuck's camp I might have not ever been overtly not
safe space I would say that I had enough training to know how to not really let on everything I was
(43:41):
thinking with my face but internally like you say I might have had judgments and internally I
might have had my opinions and I was not even really that public about them there was a time when I
tried more to be on the quote unquote right side with the politics but that didn't last for a long
(44:01):
and it's like I said earlier to have safe safe space we have to be safe space
and God has to do something in us and it is a testament to God's grace that he took three people
who really had very strong opinions about things and were judgmental and were two certain levels
(44:25):
whole year than everybody else and we might not have told ourselves that but we were and that God
really moved in us to make it so that here we are passionate about inclusion passionate about
people understanding the scripture that it is for everybody that we hey we don't care who you are
(44:45):
we want to talk about Jesus yeah and maybe that's the heart of this that we're missing that it's
not a script that you read it pride because somebody sees your sign and feels bad or it's not just
because somebody stops at your booth and I'm saying that because that's the other side of things
(45:07):
because a lot of those churches if those protests or stopped and helped to them they wouldn't or
they would argue with them or they would start something they wouldn't have that why are you doing
this conversation they wouldn't have the saw saw why are you persecuting me
we all got quiet
(45:34):
I was going to say if I did piggyback off of or at least explain to those who can't see why I just
more or less collapsed in my seat when Chuck was talking was because I have always
they're not always but definitely as long as I can remember and still struggle with this
that I have to be the quote unquote perfect Christian or also I'm going to turn people away from
(45:59):
Jesus forever and they're going to go to hell which the last part sounds very extreme and I like
kind of say it as a joke but also kind of not because again evangelical Jason that's kind of a thing
and I still kind of deal with that in the sense that if I do something wrong and
(46:23):
comment that gets enough notice people are going to be turned away from Christianity and not want anything
to do with God which I already realized there are several ways of wrong with that the first being
that I am not powerful enough to save or condemn anyone beside even my job but when Chuck was
(46:44):
talking about how kind of I basically influenced them to be a safe space ultimately that was a follow me
as I call a part situation and I definitely didn't have it all together I definitely was not in
the same place with my faith in as I am now but you know someone's still okay not to be not to
(47:10):
put it that way but to kind of put it that way there was something so attractive about me that was just
like hey let me get to know you and also let me see what God says about this let me talk to them
let me grow stronger to them and then we'd be keep having our conversations too
yeah so that was more of a like hey Nik Grace give yourself that
(47:37):
because I'm with you I have I have it's not that that the gracious what makes us wince and want to
slump in our chairs anyway it's very humbling that like you know we think we have like we we basically
think that I would say a lot a lot of a lot of Christians get hung up on that we need to believe
(47:59):
the right things in order to be close to God and that can quickly like turn into a pair of social
relationship instead of an actual intimate committed relationship with Christ which is a topic that I
kind of want to explore now that I think about it but putting a pin in that please yeah it's a
muffle it would be it would be related to K-pop of all things but yeah and how just because you know
(48:25):
something about your favorite musician in a K-pop band doesn't necessarily mean you have a relationship
with them you can convince yourself that you that by knowing everything about this person that
when you meet them they'll watch have a relationship with you but that's not the case if anything
you just come up come across as stalker and so it's it's very similar with that in that like we're
(48:47):
so obsessed with knowing the same things that we forget what really counts as the relationship like
at some point you do want to balance the knowledge with the actual relationship that but
in the beginning what really matters is the relationship and to see the love and I forget where I
was going with that but something about how just grace is a powerful thing and I definitely don't
(49:14):
give myself enough of it and it's a very humbling experience to realize that you've been given a lot
of grace because then you're just like oh I really thought like it forces you to compare your mindset
now with your mindset then and you're just like oh okay yeah it's it's giving the I once was blind
but now I see and it's like yeah back then I was real blind to the truth even if even if you are
(49:37):
an admitted relationship with Christ like as we're saying like we had these views that were
preventing us from being safe spaces preventing us from being all that God wanted us to be
and now that we have hindsight really back like oh thank you God for the grace so it's kind
of an ongoing like conversion kind of experience which shameless plug for an episode that
(50:04):
ran and I did back in what season was that the queer convert the queer conversions episode
I want to say the third or third or fourth where we basically compared the coming to Jesus as a coming
out experience and what's the what Christianity and the queer community have in common just from that
(50:27):
so I would recommend that episode absolutely absolutely and I think that maybe
what we're kind of coming to the conclusion of here is that the difference and the ability to be a
safe space versus being a gatekeeper is grace because in acknowledges first of all that we wouldn't be
(50:57):
here and we wouldn't have the insight and the ability to do what we do without it
well you can go and I am not downplaying education like I introduced earlier we have seminary you
don't have an excuse that you can't go now we have seminary we have we believe in education we're
predominantly probably in education movement I would say that that's probably true of the ministry
(51:20):
from its inception that in different forms we are about education but you can have all the education
in the world and you can be stuffed full of information and not receive the grace of God and not
be able to do anything with it I'm thinking of what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13 where he said
you know I can have all the knowledge I can conceive all the mysteries enough to move all the mountains
(51:44):
but if I don't have any love I have nothing and the same is true because the grace of God is an
extension of his love and if there's one theme I don't feel that we explore well enough today it is
grace because I think that people are afraid if we get into God's grace we have to let down the
gatekeeping that anything is going to go and we're saying everybody can believe anything they want no
(52:09):
we're not saying it doesn't believe in what you matter what you believe but we don't come to an
understanding of really understanding what we believe and what we need to believe without the grace
of God we cannot walk our Christian life without the grace of God we cannot lead anybody else to the Lord
without the grace of God and in saying that if we don't embrace the grace of God we are going to forever
(52:36):
be excluding somebody and justifying it with our own ideas about faith that really don't line up with
what God wants to do well we are just about at the end of our episode this move really fast I was
(52:56):
okay we really didn't know we didn't really know what we were going to do and I'm not going to lie I
had actually kind of thought about cancelling but I said no I canceled last weekend I don't want to
do that again because we need to get back into this we need to get back into the presentations of our
faith because I know with myself and with something that I often wrestle with is that I have to have
(53:23):
another job right now and I feel sometimes like that takes me very far away from where I want to be with
this and we need to do these things and we need to have these conversations because they center us
to know what God is doing in this season and what God is doing within each and every one of us right
now and while we feel like God is dealing with us and while we make the dying whale noises that Nick
(53:46):
talks about and every single time we step back in here not to bring epic into this but we know
that God or Pacific Rim was awesome we know that God is doing something in this season and he is
working us for something in this season so that being said y'all have been on before I typically turn
(54:09):
over the final thoughts to the guests or guests what is a final thought with all the stuff that
we've talked about that you would like to leave with everybody. So kind of piggyback off of the
humbling aspect of great situation I think one way to be mindful about being saved space versus
(54:37):
gatekeeping is that you have to change too and so do other people because everyone has as much
access to Jesus as an expert and I definitely had to change a lot of my theology because I wouldn't
be as an effective minister if I saw in some of the beliefs that I have prior to now but that's also
(55:05):
kind of why I have more compassion for people who are on like the turn of their inside because I
get it I used to be there but I got the chance to change and other people should have that too.
I'm just thinking about the grace part and I couldn't tell you what song this is it's an old
hymn but the lines grace grace that's grace grace that is greater than all our sins
(55:30):
dropped in my head while I was thinking about what I was going to say and so I think that when we
approach the topic of safe space versus gatekeeping or just honestly any topic where it's a difference
between inclusion and exclusion that what really changes people's hearts and minds is God's grace
(55:58):
it's no argument that we can ever give it's not the it's certainly not the action of exclusion where we
prevent people from experiencing God's love but it's the like Nik said the the compassion in
(56:18):
knowing that hey I used to be one thing and now I'm another God has changed me God can change you too
and just recognizing that it's it's not human effort it is God's grace that is in all of this
well after I sigh a lot and you know maybe drink some water because you know
(56:47):
got a hydrator die straight no right I am going to take it
deep breath and thank you all for being on this episode because I think it was needed I think it was
needed for more than just the people who are gonna hear it I think it was needed for us too
and I love when God does that and I hate when God does that at the same time so it's kind of like that
(57:13):
you know like that that emoticon of the gift I think it's a gift with all the fingers the
little fingers popping out yeah that's how it feels yeah I kind of feels like that at the moment but
anyway well I thank you guys for being on and how can everybody get in contact with you
so if you know me in real life I'm active on instagram but if you don't know me I would highly recommend
(57:40):
visiting love a dash not dash broken dot com that's where I have all my resources I have
a bit about my story which includes a link to the testimony I did for the Kingdom Now podcast
of Wild Back and then I also have a contact page it's titled questions but honestly you can just
(58:01):
use it as a contact page you know just send me a message and we can get to talking about anything
again I have a website I can also talk nikfits.com that's n-i-k-f-i-t-s on the contact page there's a
form that you can message me there but I also have a link to my link tree like I said at the beginning
(58:25):
of the episode that pretty much takes me to anywhere you can find me on social media
twitter and instagram on that super active one at the moment but if you do add me on instagram I will
eventually add you back I'm mostly active on blue sky and tiktok and obviously my blog so yeah
(58:46):
everyone get in touch with me I'm really about to just as as a personal thing say a little more
than high just because I don't personally know what to do with that I just I don't know I need
like a dialogue sorry personally I was gonna say something funny but it escaped my mind
(59:07):
I was gonna say what you could say hi back I mean yes but it's like I I don't know I don't do
well I know which I know what you mean it's just kind of like hi how are you today you know you
could say something besides just hi okay again no I'm just I was just trying to think of something
funny to say okay well I thank you both for being on here and I encourage all of you who are
(59:33):
listening to stick with us through this season because we've got a lot of exciting things coming up
I'm actually going to be honest in saying that we are recording this season all out of order so I
don't know when this is gonna air this could be like more towards the middle of the the end of
the first part it could be at the very beginning I don't know so I'm kind of recording out of order
(59:53):
but we're going to let God's grace order the episode so that everybody who hears it needs to
and that the messages conveyed and I thank all of you very much for listening today and let's
get some resources in your hands for some of the stuff that we're talking about today
so if you would like to read a book that helps you to examine yourself I recommend my book a
(01:00:16):
heart god can use the journey to the center of his will that's a heart god can use the journey to
the center of his will and one thing I am excited to say that as of the time that this will be aired
that most of my books will have undergone a makeover they will have undergone some editing and so
most of my books not quite all of them but quite a few of them including a heart god can use will have
(01:00:39):
been updated also recently released not that long ago was last year late last year was my book
ministering to lgbtq plus and those who love them a primer for queer theology and the accompanying
workbook and I highly recommend if that's something that you got kind of hung on when you're
listening to this that maybe that's your gatekeeper area go and get that book and the reason I'm telling
(01:01:04):
you to go get that book is because years ago when we did the first edition somebody told me that I
was writing on these issues to help straight people understand queer theology now I would like to think
that I'm writing for everybody to understand queer theology because even queer people don't always
understand queer theology but this is definitely a book that is written so that if you want to really
(01:01:25):
learn more about what scripture actually teaches about these issues that is an excellent resource for
don't be intimidated by the size just dive in and read it it's got a nice large font very nice
to read and ministers Nick and Chuck wrote forward so definitely get that copy today of those books and
(01:01:46):
get some knowledge in there so that god's grace can start to really infuse in you in different ways
also check out my pathios column leadership on fire at patheos.com/blogs/leadershiponfire
that's patheos.com/blogs/leadershiponfire said that five times fast it is a blog devoted to all
(01:02:09):
things related to leadership and so go there and get some information and check that out today also
if you are interested in seminary like we mentioned earlier in this podcast entirely donation based
we are not going to come after you we are not going to check your bank account we're not going to
do anything like that you want to apply today an apostolic covenant theological seminary that's
(01:02:31):
acts for short it acts176.org that's acts176.org also connect with me across social media @kingdompowernow
that's @kingdompowernow you can find me on facebook instagram twitter tik tock if we
still have it when this episode airs blue sky and beyond i need to be more active on blue sky because
(01:02:54):
i get a lot of response on blue sky but i often forget blue sky exists add me add me and let's start
a conversation about what you'd like to hear more of on this program what you'd like to do differently
let's start just talk @kingdompowernow also if you'd like to learn more about the world of
counterculture Christianity feel free to visit my website at kingdompowernow.org that's kingdompowernow.org
(01:03:18):
and if you are looking for a safe space and you are in the Charlotte North Carolina area check out
sanctuary at welcomeinthisplace.org that's welcomeinthisplace.org we have updated our
website with the most current info so definitely go and check that out today and this is Apostle
dr. Lee Ann Marino reminding you in closing we can date keep in a lot of different ways but ultimately
(01:03:43):
when we think that we're keeping somebody out the one that we're locking out from god's grace
and our experience with him is ourselves until next time be blessed
thank you for joining us on kingdom mail i pray that it is proven to be a blessing in your life
(01:04:05):
offering an on time word for you to learn more about this work ask a question submit feedback
advertise with us order suggested items be a guest or donate to support this work as our podcast is
supported by people like you visit my website which contains essential information projects
(01:04:27):
and other points of contact around the web at kingdompowernow.org also if you'd like to visit
sanctuary international fellowship tabernet sit in one of our north carolina or south carolina
locations check out welcomeinthisplace.org until next time this is dr. lee Ann marino reminding
(01:04:48):
you that the kingdom of god is within you and that means the kingdom is now
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