May 1, 2025 • 48 mins
What does it really mean to "come back to yourself" after you've abandoned your own truth? In this deeply personal conversation with licensed mental health counselor Lisa Klein, we explore the nuanced journey of self-abandonment and reclamation that so many of us experience throughout life.
Lisa offers a refreshing perspective on attachment styles, debunking the myth that we're permanently locked into anxious, avoidant, or disorganized patterns. "Your attachment style is not permanent," she assures, explaining how our relationship dynamics can evolve through self-awareness and intentional choices. We examine why we're often magnetically drawn to relationships that mirror our unhealed wounds—"People are drawn to certain people because they show you something that needs to heal in yourself."
The conversation moves through practical strategies for reclaiming your voice after manipulative relationships, with Lisa emphasizing the power in validating your own emotions: "My feelings are valid, regardless of your intentions." We discuss how true connection requires holding space for different perspectives without trying to convince others of your truth—a challenging but liberating practice.
Perhaps most poignantly, Lisa reminds us that healing shouldn't become another performance-based achievement: "Don't be so focused on healing that you miss out on your life." This wisdom invites us to approach our journey with compassion, understanding that imperfection is part of being human.
Whether you're navigating relationship patterns, recovering from emotional manipulation, or simply trying to reconnect with your authentic self, this conversation offers both validation and practical wisdom for the journey. Listen now, and remember that unconditional self-love is the foundation of all healing.
Thank you for joining me today. Please know that this podcast and the information shared is not to replace or supplement any mental health or personal wellness modalities provided by practitioners. It’s simply me, sharing my personal experiences and I appreciate you respecting and honoring my story and my guests. If something touched your heart please feel free to like, share and subscribe. Have a beautiful day full of gratitude, compassion and unconditional love.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What's up you guys and welcome to this episode of
Crystal Clear.
I have a wonderful guest todaywho has become a great friend of
mine, Ms Lisa Klein, who is alicensed mental health counselor
.
She's the founder of Lisa KleinCounseling.
It's a Sarasota-based privatepractice where she works with
adults, especially women,helping them with their life
(00:22):
transformations, anxiety, biglife shifts, really helping to
reclaim their voice, reclaimtheir worthiness through these
shifts that we all experience.
So welcome, Lisa, it's reallygreat to have you on today,
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I'm happy to be here, excited.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Yes, me too.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
So yes, I have been in private practice actually
fairly newly.
I transferred out of working inthe school system doing mental
health, but now I primarily workwith adults navigating
different things.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Yeah, how has that transformation been for you,
because that's quite a big shift.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
It has been a lot, yeah, but I really enjoy it.
It allows me a lot moreflexibility and I really
identify with a lot of thethings that my clients present
with now, so, yeah, Awesome, Imean, and that's just.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
I think my intention behind this podcast and all the
guests that I bring on is justbringing the human experience to
life and that, no matter whatour background, no matter what
our profession like, we stillexperience life, we do In all of
these transformations.
And that, I feel like, is wherethe true value of what our
(01:43):
expertise is Like.
It just adds so much valuegoing towards, you know, all of
those big shifts and having thetools and having the skills, and
it's like we like to providefor others what we needed
through those situations.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
I 100% agree with that and obviously we know a
little bit about each other, sowe know where we're coming from.
Little bit about each other, sowe know where we're coming from
, but I think that it's reallyimportant what you touched on,
that you know people need tohear that other people have
experienced these things.
It's not all what it looks like.
It's not all the exteriorexperience leads you to believe,
(02:21):
and being really honest andtruthful about those things
helps people not feel so alone,and that goes for everyone,
right?
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Yeah, so Right.
So, yeah, I love that.
Yeah, thank you, and we andsomething.
I really I come in to podcastswith intentions, but Lisa and I
had like three pages of thingswe wanted to talk about today,
cast with intentions, but Lisaand I had like three pages of
things we wanted to talk abouttoday, so we had to narrow it
down.
But one of the big things andit's kind of been a theme
throughout my journey and thingsthat I've shared but something
(02:54):
that we can like kind of justjump right into is something I
think everyone has experiencedin some way or another, whether
they know it or not, and that islike self-abandonment and
coming back to yourself aftercertain types of relationships
(03:15):
or careers or you know, justtrying to really figure out who
you are and getting to yourauthentic place and your
authentic person.
And it may be because you know,you grew up doing everything
you thought you were supposed tobe doing, but it was never
really made you feel purposeful.
I mean, we could go probablythree days talking about this
one thing but would love to justkind of you know, from your
(03:40):
professional perspective,personal perspective, what does
that really mean to you?
Like, when you hear that likeself-abandonment, coming back to
yourself, what does that meanfor?
Speaker 2 (03:50):
you.
I think that that means for me.
First of all, I want to saythat's ever evolving 100%,
because you, coming back toyourself right now might be
different than it was at adifferent time.
Your perspective is alwaysshifting.
For me, I feel like there canbe times I feel like I'm really
(04:14):
in an authentic place and mostof the time I do, I'm pretty
transparent, maybe more so thansometimes is needed, but I think
it's better to just say what'son your mind, generally speaking
.
But for me, I think it meansstanding in your truth without
apologizing for it.
(04:40):
In situations like you talkedabout with work, there's a
balance with you know what isprofessionally expected of you
and what might be in alignmentwith your values, right.
And then you kind of have tomeasure and balance that the
best way that you can, andnothing's ever going to be
(05:03):
perfect, right.
So you do the best that you can.
But I think really to me thatis the big thing, like not being
apologetic for who you areright and you know.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Just to elaborate on that, that doesn't mean you like
go be an asshole because, thatis unprocessed stuff you need to
work through, but yeah, no.
So so my perspective of what, orperception of what you just
spoke about, is really what I'vebeen really trying to.
(05:35):
I mean, it's what I wake upevery day and try to do and for
me that looks different daily.
Yeah, honestly, it looks sodifferent from day to day, like
my truth and what I'm showing upfor today looks a little
different than it did yesterday,because yesterday was Sunday
and I was home with my kids andwe were by the pool and you know
.
So just giving yourselfpermission it kind of goes back
(05:57):
to that four agreements book,like doing your best every day
and you know, and givingyourself the flexibility to know
that that's different and youdon't always have to be 150%.
If you're at 70% today ofwhatever you want to judge that
percentage on, that's okay, andif you're not, that's okay too.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yes, 100% agreed with that, and I also think with
that.
Said too, when I was thinking,exactly what you said about that
doesn't give you an excuse tobe an asshole.
We're all human and whateveryou see on social media is not
(06:43):
true that you are able to holdyourself accountable without
shaming yourself.
Right, that is the key.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
It's like really, when we talked about this a
little briefly before we evenstarted filming, yeah, it's like
that integrity, the character,like who are you when no one's
watching?
Yes, you know how I show up formyself when I'm home alone is
the same way I show up formyself, if not more powerful
than it is when my wholefamily's there, or how you know.
(07:16):
So it's like that's the way Iperceive that, like my, and I've
had to really figure out whatthat was, because I haven't
always lived that way yeah, notas consistently as I have in the
past I would say five years.
It's because you're exploringor diving into different avenues
.
You're, you know, you'resocially a little bit more
(07:36):
vulnerable, I think in yourtwenties and your teens,
especially in your adolescencegoodness for goodness sakes.
Um, you know, for example, my,my daughter.
I use her, for example, a lotbecause she's at that prime age
where all the things arehappening, but she has a friend
and she's like it's so differentwhen there's another group of
friends around.
Her voice even changes and shestarts and she's like I just
(07:57):
want to hang out with friendsthat don't talk about other
people.
I'm like be patient and knowthat if it's one person and we
talked about like quality overquantity and people really
trying to discover themselves atthat young age, and I'm like, I
feel like you're just an oldsoul.
Not everyone who is your ageunderstands this, but I love
(08:17):
that you do.
Yeah, but you know, there'speople in their 30s and 40s and
50s.
Some people never figure it outand we're seeking that external
validation and we don't reallyknow what it is that we want.
Or maybe we've never had theopportunity to have space to
understand what it is that weneed, because we're we're
(08:38):
seeking and listening andconditioned from all of these
environmental factors that don'tgive us that space to process,
like what is it that I reallywant and that I need, and what
feels good for me?
Like what brings me peace, whatbrings me joy, not what I think
I should be doing.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Right, right, and I think a lot of people too like
they don't.
There's safety in not beingyourself.
In a way, it doesn't feel gooda lot of the time, like truly,
but if you're just one of themasses like you aren't picked
out you know, like people I whenI think of high school, she's
(09:19):
in high school right.
Yeah, when I think of highschool, I was, honestly, I was
very nerdy.
I still kind of am, but that youknow I remember thinking I
don't really care, that I'msuper nerdy, but a lot of people
, like you know, had differentopinions about me and that
(09:41):
probably would have been harderfor somebody who wasn't, you
know, more self-assured.
And I went through differentthings, um, in my life that kind
of led me to that way that Iwas.
But I think that it's reallydifficult when people are going
(10:02):
through identity formation.
Like one of our core needs aspeople is to be accepted and
feel, you know, connected toother people.
I still feel that, but now Ithink we can get older, right,
and you have more lifeexperience.
You can be like I want to beconnected with people who
(10:22):
support me, embrace me andchallenge me too, like it can be
both.
It doesn't have to be mutuallyexclusive to one, but some
people just, yeah, they wouldrather not kind of go against
the grain because it can beeasier, yeah, and it's scary to
really get into yourselfsometimes.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Yeah, I think so.
I feel like I'm a person that'snever really liked to be part
of the like.
If everyone's swimming this way, I'm like, well, this way is
way less crowded, so I'm goingto try this out.
Like this is a little morepeaceful over here, it's
interesting to reflect back on.
And it's also interesting, youknow, for my own experience,
it's been interesting to see,like as the world it's also
interesting, you know, for myown experiences, but interesting
(11:05):
to see, like as the world weknow it today, what that even
looks like.
And um, you know so, I think,when we think like, coming back
to ourself after relationships,for example, like you know, you
can get into whether it's anintimate relationship, a family
relationship, because it doesn'thave to just be with an
(11:26):
intimate partner.
If you're giving and you'regiving and you're giving and
you're not receiving from thosesituations and those connections
the way that you're hoped, Ithink that's really kind of what
gives us that lack and the voidsometimes it does that lack and
(11:49):
the void sometimes.
So it's like finding ways tobalance and fill the void from
the lack of connection that wewant, because it's something we
would give.
Like you know, it's like, ohwell, I would do this for this
person and this and this, andit's like, okay, well, if that's
just not them, it's not them.
So it's almost like releasingthe expectation but also setting
a boundary of.
This is what I need, right, andfinding relationships and
connections that are fulfilling.
(12:12):
In that way, and if you don'thave those relationships with
other people, and honestly Ifeel like until I understood
what I needed from myself, Ididn't know what I needed from
other relationships- that'sreally true, though.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
I mean because if you aren't aware of how your wounds
or upbringing has shaped yourworldview and your perspective
in dealing with people, it canbe really hard to understand why
things happen in a dynamicBecause, truthfully, in any
relationship, like you weresaying, whether it's peers or
family or intimate partnership,you mirror each other, like you
(13:03):
will trigger each other, whichis why, you know, in therapy I
kind of try to I don't directlynecessarily say this, but it's
the I genuinely think that mostpeople act by doing what they
(13:23):
think is best, like they aren'tpurposely malicious.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
That doesn't mean that they're meeting your needs.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
But I think it's important to think about that
because, yeah, when you'reabandoning yourself in order to
try to get something fromsomebody else, it's something
that needs to be like, addressedwithin you it's something that
needs to be like, addressedwithin you.
That doesn't mean what'shappening is wrong, right or
right in the relationship.
Those are individualcircumstances, obviously, but if
(13:54):
you feel so compelled right tokeep grasping at that and
they're not meeting you, so it'slike what?
Speaker 1 (14:03):
is it?
Speaker 2 (14:03):
inside what needs to heal in there.
Yeah, what does it say aboutyou?
That that person is not givingyou what you need.
What do you feel like it'ssaying and why are you?
Speaker 1 (14:16):
expecting this of this person Right and not soul
searching within, Like a greatbook from Young Playbook like
Inward.
Have you read that book?
it's so good and it's reallylike it's really small little
pages, but you really kind oflike little tips, like it's.
I feel like it's like a pottybook, like every day it's like,
oh wow, I didn't think I coulddo that.
(14:37):
You know, it's like littlethings we don't think about
because I think from very youngwe are taught or conditioned
just in society or whatever yourbackground, and just to seek
from external yeah, we're notnecessarily depending on you,
know.
I feel like I do my best toinstill this into my children.
(15:00):
Is you know, seek from internal, Like what is it that you need
today?
Is you know, seek from internal, like what is it that you need
today?
And that should be what shapesand forms.
You know who you surroundyourself with and what you're
doing and what you're eating,how you're moving your body.
You know whatever that means islike, go inward first instead
of thinking like I need it fromhere.
(15:20):
It's like what in here can I doto nurture myself first?
Speaker 2 (15:27):
yeah, I agree with that.
I think people just get reallyconfused as time goes on.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
That's well because we have all of these
overstimulating.
We need you to be this, we needto do this.
We need intermittent fast.
We need to do that.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Like well, there's so much shit out there, even at
school, like even young, andlike thinking about kids that
are maybe neurodiverse and likehow they have to, or a lot of
times feel like they have tomask, like their behaviors or
(15:58):
symptoms because they aren'taccepted by their peers, and
then that creates like a wholeplethora of self abandonment,
which is really heartbreaking.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Yeah, and being empowered by who they are.
And accepting that and I thinktoo, becomes like understanding
the other.
One of my favorite quotes islike other people's opinion of
you doesn't matter and it's noneof your business.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Yes, and trust me, I do it to myself all the time.
But if we can reallyinternalize that like just take
a minute to think about that?
Is that, like, just take aminute to think about that?
Because why is it as humans, dowe try to please other people?
(16:51):
Why is it that we do get intothese situations or
relationships or careers, orwhere we lose that authenticity
or or shelter what we reallywant or or, you know, don't use
our voice, yeah, and justconform.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
I think that's a twofold kind of response.
I think it's almost like partof us doesn't know what we want
all the time.
You know, when you're young youmight think you want X, y and Z
life.
I mean, I remember when Iworked with kids.
They would be like I have mywhole, like I'm going to get
(17:28):
married at 18.
And I'm like okay yeah, and I'mgoing to be a doctor by the
time I'm 24.
Like they have this idea.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
MASH.
Did you ever play the game,mash?
Speaker 2 (17:38):
I'm going to get a mansion, like I know it's going
to happen because I got it.
But so we have these ideas, butwe don't really know what we
want because we haven't hadenough experience, right.
And then I think on the otherside of that, you know, when
we're growing up and I hate tolike, attribute everything, to
(18:01):
like attachment and this andthat, but that's a big part of
stuff so when you don't haveyour needs met, necessarily,
when you're younger or you're,you know, taught to accommodate
or like say, not ask questionswhy you have to do things, then
(18:21):
you kind of lose that touch withyour own intuition and you kind
of go into everything likelistening to other people and
this is the way I'm supposed tobehave, and then it takes a lot
of unlearning you know, andlet's touch on attachment styles
, because that is my jam, andwhen I realized what I kind of
(18:47):
fall into, yeah, what I can seehow I've fell into, kind of grew
out of.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
You know, it's like you, because constantly evolving
again.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
So I love that you just said that, because, number
one, your attachment style isnot permanent.
No, nothing is permanent, rightI'm anxious, they'll see
something on social media.
I'm anxious, like that is who Iam, and I'm like, no, like, no.
(19:21):
Actually that's not really thesituation, but it varies from
relationship to relationship.
It does from person to person.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
I mean my relationship with my mother is
very different than myrelationship with my husband,
and very different myrelationship with my kids and
very different my relationshipwith my peers.
Yeah, and so I have a differenttype of attachment style to
everyone in my life right.
So give us a little brief onthe different attachment styles
and kind of Well there's anxiousattachment, which you know has
(19:52):
a bunch of different.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
It's easiest for me to talk about it, I guess, in
context to a romanticrelationship, generally speaking
.
But there's the anxiousattachment, avoidant attachment,
disorganized attachment, andthen secure attachment.
Right, in regards to, like, anintimate partnership, an anxious
(20:15):
person might be the person thatidentifies as like,
overanalyzing everything, kindof trying to figure things out
to anticipate the way somebodyelse might act or respond to
them before they do they workthemselves up by trying to fix
(20:36):
the relationship before anythinghappens, right.
I used to very much relate tothat one early on, and then the
dismissive on the other side.
That's kind of like the otherside of the pendulum.
The dismissive is the one orthe individual who is like
(20:58):
you're freaking me out when youwant to get too close, like it's
too much for me, you're, youknow, getting in my space.
I feel overwhelmed, I'm notgoing to be able to engage with
you Also.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
I felt like I can relate to that one in a
different relationship.
Well, and I'm thinking of thesethings too, and it really
depends on like who the personis with you right, and like what
that person brings alive insideof you, right Rosenberg would
stay, and that's what brings upthose time, because just think
(21:37):
of it like since birth, we'vehad different relationships,
like our mother and fatherrelationship with different, our
relationship with ourgrandparents, like.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
So, thinking back into my or before I go there,
let's finish the attachment,okay, so then there's
disorganized and it's like I'mnot sure if I like you or not,
like I'm not sure why I'mfeeling that way, just very
unsure of their inner responseto what is going on in the
(22:06):
exterior and relationship topeople, like they're kind of a
mishmash of both of those.
And then they're secure andobviously like everybody wants
to be secure all the time andthat I really feel like is
earned in a relationship,because, you know, not everyone
(22:30):
has experienced trauma and Ithink that word gets feel bad
and leave wounds Right.
And I like to.
You know I refer to that a lotas just unprocessed life.
Yeah, like sometimes we haveunprocessed life Right.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
And I think that's a great way.
Yeah, because it's normalized,because we all have something in
our life and our body and itcould be something that didn't
even happen to us.
It's something that wewitnessed in our family
situation.
It could be something that wewitnessed with friends and their
families Right.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Or more subtle things .
But I think that when you're inrelationship with somebody, you
can learn to heal those thingswith each other.
I mean, I even think and a lotof people are like, oh my gosh,
when there's an anxious andavoidant together, because
they're, they like go throughcycles, that's a very common
(23:38):
relationship, dynamicrelationship dynamic.
But I will say it's not, youknow, easy.
But I think that those peopleare drawn to each other for a
reason and they can, if they'reboth able to be accountable for
how they come in, become secureif it's meant to be.
(24:01):
They're like, prepared for thatwork, like that deep work, a
lot of freaking work.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
I will tell you firsthand it is a lot of work
and it takes a lot of inwardsearching, a lot of transparency
and communication, yes, and alot of trust.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
It does.
You have to be really willingto face your own shit and
avoidance.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Don't like to do that and anxious, don't like to do
that because me coming more fromlike an anxious attachment.
So again, what different personI'm talking about.
My now husband, um, was more oflike uh, oh well, if this
happens, this is going to happenand that's kind of what led to
those PTSD or PTSD patterns andit's like, well, it doesn't
always have to be cause andeffect, like you've created this
(24:49):
whole monstrosity of a story inyour mind.
You know I'm talking like wayback, but like thinking the
worst is going to happen, orthat was my own conditioning.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Didn't really have anything to do with him, and
that's so valid, though, becauseour history shapes our world.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Yeah, like it is.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
And then there's the cycle of shame with that for an
anxious person to like.
You know, why am I doing this?
I can think logically Well,it's not actually illogical what
you're thinking either.
So you know, it's just gettingin all this stuff and kind of
seeing things as they are.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Yeah well, and it's really just and um, do you have
any good resources forresearching the attachment
styles for the listeners outthere?
I always like to kind of throwa resource out there any good
books or anything like that andif so, we, if it even pops up
later, yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
I actually have a.
I want to give you an accountthat I follow on social media,
but I want to make sure I giveyou the right handle.
I think it's the secureattachment therapist, but I'm
going to confirm that.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
Okay, I think I follow them as well, something
like that, which is reallyinteresting because, you know,
having my daughter at 25, havingmy son at 35, realizing Matt
and I have tried so hard in thisage of parenting I mean 10,.
Our other kids are 10, 11, and13 years older than our almost
five-year-old and he has, likethe healthiest, secure
(26:21):
attachments.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Like he's great.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
He's excited when his nanny gets there, he's excited
when mommy gets home, when daddygets home, he's fine when we
leave.
And you know, there's dayswhere he's like I'm a little bit
sad and I missed you.
And just seeing that andknowing the difference and then
me thinking like you know how Iwas at his age when I had to
leave my grandmother, who was myperson, and it was like what's
(26:48):
gonna happen to me, what youknow, just thinking of like the
internal and seeing that's like,oh, we've done such a good job,
he's secure I mean, we all haveour but that to me, I think,
was like a huge goal.
Coming into this new chapter isjust creating a secure, safe
place.
Yeah, um, not only for him butfor myself and for the rest of
our family and my friends and mypeers and you I'm sure you get
this often you tell someoneyou're a mental health
professional and you're sittingon the plate and they're like
(27:10):
okay you owe me like 600 bucks.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
I'm just kidding.
Well, a lot of people like todivulge.
You know, what do you thinkabout this?
And I'm like oh my gosh thenuance.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
I can't get it I think it also speaks to like
you're a safe person.
You know and people feel likeyou're a safe place, whether
probably even not even knowingwhat your profession is.
Yeah, I feel like they can talkto you and I think I mean you
and I.
The first time we ever hadcoffee were like deep into the
weeds of like life and family,yeah.
(27:43):
But it was a beautiful thingbecause it was like, okay, I
mean, we knew a little bit abouteach other's background, but I
think that just speaks to havingsafe people, having a safe
place.
So you know research, if youfeel like, whatever your
attachment style might be, thereare resources out there for you
.
Lisa is one of them.
So you know this is what shedoes on the day to day and
helping people process throughtheir life and their, you know,
(28:04):
working on the deep, deep innerstuff and you know, getting kind
of moving forward into likereclaiming your voice.
So we get into these situations.
We lose ourselves, whether it'scareer, relationships, whatever
.
Yeah, what do you recommend forpeople, whether it's romantic,
(28:27):
family, parental, peer, likereclaiming their voice after,
say and I hate to use the wordnarcissism or narcissist because
I think it's way too trendy andall the things, but an
emotionally manipulativerelationship.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Well, the first thing that I recommend to anybody
that comes in and presents withthat to me, and even just like
friends, although I might bemore candid- in those situations
.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Right, and this is speaking off the record, we're
not in a session, right?
Speaker 2 (29:05):
But I tell people because a lot of times how that
starts is you're overreacting,like your feelings aren't valid
because of what I said, like itcould be oh, I'm single in
public and you've been datingsomebody for a long time and
(29:27):
them being like that hurt myfeelings and they go.
I'm just kidding, right, andthat's gaslighting, right first
of all.
But then you have to be able tobe like no, actually no right
my feelings are valid,regardless of your fucking
(29:48):
intentions.
Like that is a firm point forpeople when they're feeling like
you know I'm trying to reclaimwho.
I am Validating your emotions.
That's different than acting onyour emotions too.
I'll also say that you don'twant to go start screaming at
(30:11):
everybody that I'm right all thetime.
No, because you know everybodyhas their own truth.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Right, I was going to say your perspective of what
might be right is probably notthe other person's perspective,
that's why I really tried to noteven use the words like right
and wrong.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Right.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Because it's all just personal.
We create our own reality,right?
Speaker 2 (30:30):
But I think, when people are, feel or are in
manipulative relationshipsituations.
It becomes about convincing theother person that they're not
right or like that theiremotions or where they're coming
from.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
They're devaluing that person.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Right, and it's kind of a control tactic to a degree,
and that could be because theother person's afraid of being
abandoned and hasn't done theirwork.
I mean narcissists.
There are few, true, like thatis a very small percentage of
people that fit into that actualpersonality disorder.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
And honestly that personality disorder really does
stem from their you and nottaking the time and space to
hear you, to try to understand.
I mean, that's one of thebiggest deal breakers for me in
a friendship and a romanticrelationship and anything Like.
if you cannot hear me andunderstand where I'm coming from
(31:55):
, you don't have to be able torelate to it or I just want you
like that is compassion right,like being able to hear and
understand someone's perspectiveand point of view, even if it
is not your own and notsomething you agree with.
But being able to hold thatspace for them is key.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
It is that's solid right there.
I think that is really important, because a lot of people like I
always say this to people too.
You know a lot of people thatcome into therapy with me, you
know might be dealing withrelationship, dynamic issues,
aside from other things, andthey'll be like you know, we, or
(32:38):
, if they've broken up withsomebody that's in a
relationship like this, theymight say something like we
never fought, like it was great,and I and I'm like, well, no,
not exactly, because, right,like you, aren't the two exact
same person, so somebody was notsaying something.
Like there wasn't communicationthere, and I think you know
(33:04):
being able to have conflict orthose conversations that are
hard or important, um, butreally, you're right, if
somebody is not able to hear it,it doesn't really matter, it's
not going to be, doesn't change,you can't control, and I think
(33:24):
that's part of reclaiming yourvoice to somebody else and
reclaiming it internally.
Like you have to be like, okay,this is my truth and I own that
, and like that's theirs and Ican't convince them.
Right, like how's it going toserve me to keep arguing about
(33:45):
it?
Right, but you have to get tothat point, right.
It takes work on yourself to beable to be like I'm going to
just drop it.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Right, I'm going to drop it and I'm going to process
to why I'm even chasing my tailwith it and giving it energy,
and that's.
I think something reallyimportant is, no matter what
type of relationship you're in,including yourself, no matter
what type of relationship you'rein, including yourself,
allowing yourself this space andtime to process, because so
(34:16):
often we are busy and we'regoing through the motions and
you know, maybe it's like aconversation we want to have and
we don't get around to itbecause it's not a great time,
because we're busy or like youknow.
So, the more you like, just letthings go, yeah, and don't face
them as they like.
That's why I always keep anotebook.
I probably have 15 notebooks inmy car.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Not really.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
But I literally, in every bag I have which I have
bags I switch off and there's anotebook, there's something in
there, because I write thingsdown.
Like, if it's something I wantto chat with my husband about,
well, I'm not going to call himin the middle of the day when
he's at work and I'm, you know,commuting to get kids, cause
it's not going to be in time foran intentional conversation.
It's something I need todiscuss with my mom.
It's like, or my kids, or youknow a friend, you know just
(35:00):
creating space to have thoseintentional conversations.
And if it's something you needto process through yourself,
taking that time to do it foryourself, like that's why I'm a
journal all the time, love it.
And sometimes it's like, oh,this is what we did this weekend
, it was great.
And other times it's like Ithink I astral projected last
night and I went to this otherspiritual realm and what is the
(35:20):
purpose behind this?
Because it means somethingbigger.
And what is life trying toteach me right now?
And that's the way that I thinkI look at all of these, every,
every relationship and everydifferent opportunity is like
what opportunity is.
it's giving me Cause.
Like you said, it's a mirror.
So why is it that I keep, or Ihave, or who you know?
I'm not necessarily speakingfor myself, but why is it that
(35:42):
we seek relationships thataren't fulfilling yet?
Yet we keep seeking the sametype of behaviors, and it's
because we haven't taken time toprocess inward, like we said
earlier, why what it is we'reneeding from the external, and
do we need anything at all fromthe external is the question.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Well, I think, yes, I think we need connection as
humans, right?
Like I don't think, I mean, Iguess there are hermits, but I
don't know any but I think thatpeople crave connection, Like
that feels good to be heard bysomebody else that feels good to
(36:27):
be heard by somebody else.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
I mean that's why people come to me.
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
But, I think that we are drawn to people until the
experience is fully absorbed andI don't want to say a lesson,
because it's not, because it'snot, but it's like you're drawn
to certain people, I think,because they show you something
that you need to heal inyourself, yeah, and that repeats
until you're able to sit likecome to the realization,
(37:01):
whatever it is, yeah what do youthink in your own life, has
been that for you?
Oh my gosh.
Well, I've been in someunhealthy relationships in my
life and everything.
I kind of think a lot oftherapists are actually drawn to
(37:23):
the field because of that, 100%yeah it's like we have our own
demons In some way, whether it'sfirst or second, yeah, I think
(37:44):
that in my relationships Iidentified very much with the
anxious attachment and like I'mtrying to earn whatever to be
reciprocated to me, and theneventually it was like no, I
(38:08):
don't like why I am trying toearn my worthiness.
Well, I'm trying to, you know,anticipate what was going to go
wrong, or like, how should Iword this to soften?
And I was like, why am I doingthat?
Why am I softening things?
So I think that definitely wasone of the biggest lessons that
I have to take and, with thatsaid, you know there's a time
(38:30):
and a place to address thingsright.
You know, I'm I'm very aware ofthat too, and that you know,
like I said, I feel like mostpeople genuinely do come from a
good place, but that doesn'tmean that they're good for you,
Right, and that's a big thing.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
And it's like knowing that, wow, you know, this looks
like externally everythinglooks great, yeah, but why isn't
it good for me?
And it's like, and coming tothe acceptance of that, yeah,
like that's okay.
And I think that's why you knowmarriages are great and then
you know people dissolve themeventually because that's great
(39:10):
for that period of your life.
But it's okay to transition andtransform because that's the
evolution of life and noteveryone and this is something
someone told me a while back noteveryone wants to heal and not
everyone wants to grow.
And some people are fine theway they are and genuinely fine.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
They're happy to go to work, they're content, and
that's great.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
It is, and I don't think I've ever been one of
those people.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
No.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
But I think those people are awesome.
But, I think it's just reallycool to know that, like not
everyone is going to get it.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
Right and I think you're right really being able
to accept that from a place ofsomebody who wants to constantly
be evolving and growing, thatlike okay, that's okay if
they're not there and like Ihave to be okay with that, I'm
not going to make them see, likeI'm not going to make them come
to my side, right.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
And it comes with just having the healthy
separation and those healthyboundaries of knowing like
that's them and that's whatserves them, and that's OK.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
I think it takes a long time and a lot of work to
get to that point.
I will say oh, 100%, and Ithink that's where the why when
you were asking why people areattracted to certain people,
it's because that hasn'thappened yet, because they're
trying to fix whatever of me.
(40:39):
It negates all these otherpeople that have left.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
You know like I'm convincing you of whatever I
need, or even just taking a stepback to appreciate that person
for who they are.
Yes, it's like when I stoppedtrying to fix my husband and I
did a whole.
A reel went viral on that.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
It was the biggest thing because people can
identify with that.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
And it's like you don't all like like why you love
him in the first place ifyou're always trying to fix him.
Yeah, you know that's not fairand and so when I took a step
back and was like, hey, like hehas his own journey and he has
his own, you know not that wedidn't need things that we need
to communicate that and betransparent about, and both
needed to do inner work.
But he did the inner work, yeah, and I was very fortunate
(41:30):
enough that he took those stepsto do that work for himself.
He didn't have to make thatchoice right um, and and that, I
think, goes for a lot of, youknow, any relationship, not even
just romantic friendships likeit's okay for someone to be a
part of a chapter.
Not everyone goes along thewhole stretch.
Yeah, not everyone goes thewhole route and that's okay.
(41:53):
So, coming to that acceptancethat like, hey, I've had really
great friends and we're not asyou know, we don't do as much as
we used to anymore, but we'reclose in different ways, like I
always hold space for them indifferent ways because I
genuinely love them.
Yeah, but our social lives area little different, right, and
that's okay.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
Like I love them for them, and I love that they have
the stamina to go out and dothings that just don't serve me
anymore.
Yeah, but it's not about them,it's about me and like what
serves me, and it doesn't meanthey need to fix anything, it
just means that that, okay,we're just different, right, and
I think that that's part ofreclaiming your voice.
(42:32):
It is, and like coming back toyourself is just understanding,
like it's okay to have theacceptance and when we start to
have that acceptance andcompassion that we're all living
this beautiful, crazy, wild,dysfunctional human experience
we call life.
(42:53):
and finding the beauty in thatand being able to hold space for
other people, I think is, um,it says something and it and it
honestly really helped merelease that anxious attachment
style is just being likewhatever is supposed to happen
is going to happen, likesurrendering to the flow.
I did a whole ladies retreat onthis, coming up like just
(43:15):
owning that and just embracingit.
It doesn't mean you have to putup with shit.
It just means that you'reembracing things and kind of
understanding how to cope andnavigate along the way.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
Right, and I think that all of that is 100% true
and I agree with that.
I think people get you know,stuck at certain points, like
when they're grieving arelationship like, and when
you're talking about marriage inparticular, I mean I'm divorced
, but I think when somebodychooses not to do the growth,
(43:51):
you can get really stuck thereright, like nobody goes into
marriage thinking, oh, thisisn't going to last, I'm going
to be one of the 50% that getsdivorced.
I'm meaning you're right.
When you get out of that, Ithink you can see clearly like
that was a part of my journeyfor better or worse.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
However you look at it.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
I had a beautiful child, I learned a lot of life
lessons.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
But it doesn't necessarily feel that way and
hopefully they do.
Hopefully, people do when theycome out of it Right.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
But there's a different way to look at it,
right, and I think that is thechoice of the person who is?
Reflecting on it and says howthey will be able to move
forward in their future.
But also, with that said, I wastrying to say like I think when
people get really stuck on thatgrief, like I love that person,
(44:46):
I really want them to stay onthis journey with me.
It can be really heartbreakingand not, you know, rushing and
be like, okay, well, that'stheir journey.
Like sometimes you're like fuckthem.
Like you know, I mean, that'sreally painful and that's
totally valid too, like you'reright Wherever you're at.
(45:08):
It's kind of like you have tobe like okay, that's why I said
really it starts with validatingyour feelings where you're at
is so important to getting intouch with your gut and where
you are Right.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
And just intuitively knowing, giving yourself the
space and time and compassion togrieve, giving yourself that
you know what you would giveothers in those situations and,
oh my God, I feel like we couldtalk all day long I know, I know
and we'll be back.
I feel like this is going to belike a three part series.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
I'm like I don't want to Now.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
I'm in my jail so many more notes, so many more
notes, but I have to pick mykids up today.
Yeah, this has been.
I mean, again, it's justliterally opening up the door.
So we'll be back for part twoand part three.
We are, we're coming back.
Um, anything you want to leaveour guests with today, with
(46:12):
anything that we talked aboutand touched on, because I feel
like we very briefly coveredsome of the stuff we could go
into two-hour conversationsabout each day, right?
Speaker 2 (46:22):
um, something that I feel and we talked about this
before the show, because I haveall my notes here I think a lot
about being intentional and.
I know you do too.
When you're talking about thesetopics, it's very important to
(46:43):
consider nuance in everysituation, that are nuanced in
every situation, and I thinkthere's no such thing like you
have to be able to heal andembody yourself, but don't be so
focused on healing that youmiss out on your life.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
Like, forget to have the fun stuff.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
Yeah, you are gonna mess up.
No matter what, the tools andresources that you have can be
plentiful.
You could be the creator of aof cognitive behavioral therapy
and still have problems that isthe nature of our existence like
(47:21):
just yeah, be with yourself.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
Don't be so hard on yourselves, right, like, just
learn to love and show yourselfthose joyful moments.
And just because I, you know Iget into something, I go all in
and I've been that person,that's like I'm over healing.
I just need to you know likeI'm overdoing it and that's
actually something we're goingto come back and do a whole
podcast on healing versusperformance.
(47:48):
Healing, yes, so somethingwe're both very passionate about
, especially in social mediaworld and all the stuff out
there.
So we're going to revamp andlook at our schedules right
after this and that's going tobe coming out in the next few
weeks after this one.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
You said something really important, though I want
(48:23):
to say too Go for it desperately, need that all over.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
Because that's really what it is right.
Yeah, it's like that's, if youreally look back at any of the
ancient texts and religion, likethe basis is really just like
the unconditional love and careand nurturing and just providing
that love to honor our spiritand our existence.
Thank you so much, lisa, forbeing here today, and I look
(48:47):
forward to part two coming up Metoo.
What's up you guys and welcome to this episode of
Crystal Clear.
I have a wonderful guest todaywho has become a great friend of
mine, Ms Lisa Klein, who is alicensed mental health counselor
.
She's the founder of Lisa KleinCounseling.
It's a Sarasota-based privatepractice where she works with
adults, especially women,helping them with their life
(00:22):
transformations, anxiety, biglife shifts, really helping to
reclaim their voice, reclaimtheir worthiness through these
shifts that we all experience.
So welcome, Lisa, it's reallygreat to have you on today,
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I'm happy to be here, excited.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Yes, me too.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
So yes, I have been in private practice actually
fairly newly.
I transferred out of working inthe school system doing mental
health, but now I primarily workwith adults navigating
different things.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Yeah, how has that transformation been for you,
because that's quite a big shift.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
It has been a lot, yeah, but I really enjoy it.
It allows me a lot moreflexibility and I really
identify with a lot of thethings that my clients present
with now, so, yeah, Awesome, Imean, and that's just.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
I think my intention behind this podcast and all the
guests that I bring on is justbringing the human experience to
life and that, no matter whatour background, no matter what
our profession like, we stillexperience life, we do In all of
these transformations.
And that, I feel like, is wherethe true value of what our
(01:43):
expertise is Like.
It just adds so much valuegoing towards, you know, all of
those big shifts and having thetools and having the skills, and
it's like we like to providefor others what we needed
through those situations.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
I 100% agree with that and obviously we know a
little bit about each other, sowe know where we're coming from.
Little bit about each other, sowe know where we're coming from
, but I think that it's reallyimportant what you touched on,
that you know people need tohear that other people have
experienced these things.
It's not all what it looks like.
It's not all the exteriorexperience leads you to believe,
(02:21):
and being really honest andtruthful about those things
helps people not feel so alone,and that goes for everyone,
right?
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Yeah, so Right.
So, yeah, I love that.
Yeah, thank you, and we andsomething.
I really I come in to podcastswith intentions, but Lisa and I
had like three pages of thingswe wanted to talk about today,
cast with intentions, but Lisaand I had like three pages of
things we wanted to talk abouttoday, so we had to narrow it
down.
But one of the big things andit's kind of been a theme
throughout my journey and thingsthat I've shared but something
(02:54):
that we can like kind of justjump right into is something I
think everyone has experiencedin some way or another, whether
they know it or not, and that islike self-abandonment and
coming back to yourself aftercertain types of relationships
(03:15):
or careers or you know, justtrying to really figure out who
you are and getting to yourauthentic place and your
authentic person.
And it may be because you know,you grew up doing everything
you thought you were supposed tobe doing, but it was never
really made you feel purposeful.
I mean, we could go probablythree days talking about this
one thing but would love to justkind of you know, from your
(03:40):
professional perspective,personal perspective, what does
that really mean to you?
Like, when you hear that likeself-abandonment, coming back to
yourself, what does that meanfor?
Speaker 2 (03:50):
you.
I think that that means for me.
First of all, I want to saythat's ever evolving 100%,
because you, coming back toyourself right now might be
different than it was at adifferent time.
Your perspective is alwaysshifting.
For me, I feel like there canbe times I feel like I'm really
(04:14):
in an authentic place and mostof the time I do, I'm pretty
transparent, maybe more so thansometimes is needed, but I think
it's better to just say what'son your mind, generally speaking
.
But for me, I think it meansstanding in your truth without
apologizing for it.
(04:40):
In situations like you talkedabout with work, there's a
balance with you know what isprofessionally expected of you
and what might be in alignmentwith your values, right.
And then you kind of have tomeasure and balance that the
best way that you can, andnothing's ever going to be
(05:03):
perfect, right.
So you do the best that you can.
But I think really to me thatis the big thing, like not being
apologetic for who you areright and you know.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Just to elaborate on that, that doesn't mean you like
go be an asshole because, thatis unprocessed stuff you need to
work through, but yeah, no.
So so my perspective of what, orperception of what you just
spoke about, is really what I'vebeen really trying to.
(05:35):
I mean, it's what I wake upevery day and try to do and for
me that looks different daily.
Yeah, honestly, it looks sodifferent from day to day, like
my truth and what I'm showing upfor today looks a little
different than it did yesterday,because yesterday was Sunday
and I was home with my kids andwe were by the pool and you know
.
So just giving yourselfpermission it kind of goes back
(05:57):
to that four agreements book,like doing your best every day
and you know, and givingyourself the flexibility to know
that that's different and youdon't always have to be 150%.
If you're at 70% today ofwhatever you want to judge that
percentage on, that's okay, andif you're not, that's okay too.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yes, 100% agreed with that, and I also think with
that.
Said too, when I was thinking,exactly what you said about that
doesn't give you an excuse tobe an asshole.
We're all human and whateveryou see on social media is not
(06:43):
true that you are able to holdyourself accountable without
shaming yourself.
Right, that is the key.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
It's like really, when we talked about this a
little briefly before we evenstarted filming, yeah, it's like
that integrity, the character,like who are you when no one's
watching?
Yes, you know how I show up formyself when I'm home alone is
the same way I show up formyself, if not more powerful
than it is when my wholefamily's there, or how you know.
(07:16):
So it's like that's the way Iperceive that, like my, and I've
had to really figure out whatthat was, because I haven't
always lived that way yeah, notas consistently as I have in the
past I would say five years.
It's because you're exploringor diving into different avenues
.
You're, you know, you'resocially a little bit more
(07:36):
vulnerable, I think in yourtwenties and your teens,
especially in your adolescencegoodness for goodness sakes.
Um, you know, for example, my,my daughter.
I use her, for example, a lotbecause she's at that prime age
where all the things arehappening, but she has a friend
and she's like it's so differentwhen there's another group of
friends around.
Her voice even changes and shestarts and she's like I just
(07:57):
want to hang out with friendsthat don't talk about other
people.
I'm like be patient and knowthat if it's one person and we
talked about like quality overquantity and people really
trying to discover themselves atthat young age, and I'm like, I
feel like you're just an oldsoul.
Not everyone who is your ageunderstands this, but I love
(08:17):
that you do.
Yeah, but you know, there'speople in their 30s and 40s and
50s.
Some people never figure it outand we're seeking that external
validation and we don't reallyknow what it is that we want.
Or maybe we've never had theopportunity to have space to
understand what it is that weneed, because we're we're
(08:38):
seeking and listening andconditioned from all of these
environmental factors that don'tgive us that space to process,
like what is it that I reallywant and that I need, and what
feels good for me?
Like what brings me peace, whatbrings me joy, not what I think
I should be doing.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Right, right, and I think a lot of people too like
they don't.
There's safety in not beingyourself.
In a way, it doesn't feel gooda lot of the time, like truly,
but if you're just one of themasses like you aren't picked
out you know, like people I whenI think of high school, she's
(09:19):
in high school right.
Yeah, when I think of highschool, I was, honestly, I was
very nerdy.
I still kind of am, but that youknow I remember thinking I
don't really care, that I'msuper nerdy, but a lot of people
, like you know, had differentopinions about me and that
(09:41):
probably would have been harderfor somebody who wasn't, you
know, more self-assured.
And I went through differentthings, um, in my life that kind
of led me to that way that Iwas.
But I think that it's reallydifficult when people are going
(10:02):
through identity formation.
Like one of our core needs aspeople is to be accepted and
feel, you know, connected toother people.
I still feel that, but now Ithink we can get older, right,
and you have more lifeexperience.
You can be like I want to beconnected with people who
(10:22):
support me, embrace me andchallenge me too, like it can be
both.
It doesn't have to be mutuallyexclusive to one, but some
people just, yeah, they wouldrather not kind of go against
the grain because it can beeasier, yeah, and it's scary to
really get into yourselfsometimes.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Yeah, I think so.
I feel like I'm a person that'snever really liked to be part
of the like.
If everyone's swimming this way, I'm like, well, this way is
way less crowded, so I'm goingto try this out.
Like this is a little morepeaceful over here, it's
interesting to reflect back on.
And it's also interesting, youknow, for my own experience,
it's been interesting to see,like as the world it's also
interesting, you know, for myown experiences, but interesting
(11:05):
to see, like as the world weknow it today, what that even
looks like.
And um, you know so, I think,when we think like, coming back
to ourself after relationships,for example, like you know, you
can get into whether it's anintimate relationship, a family
relationship, because it doesn'thave to just be with an
(11:26):
intimate partner.
If you're giving and you'regiving and you're giving and
you're not receiving from thosesituations and those connections
the way that you're hoped, Ithink that's really kind of what
gives us that lack and the voidsometimes it does that lack and
(11:49):
the void sometimes.
So it's like finding ways tobalance and fill the void from
the lack of connection that wewant, because it's something we
would give.
Like you know, it's like, ohwell, I would do this for this
person and this and this, andit's like, okay, well, if that's
just not them, it's not them.
So it's almost like releasingthe expectation but also setting
a boundary of.
This is what I need, right, andfinding relationships and
connections that are fulfilling.
(12:12):
In that way, and if you don'thave those relationships with
other people, and honestly Ifeel like until I understood
what I needed from myself, Ididn't know what I needed from
other relationships- that'sreally true, though.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
I mean because if you aren't aware of how your wounds
or upbringing has shaped yourworldview and your perspective
in dealing with people, it canbe really hard to understand why
things happen in a dynamicBecause, truthfully, in any
relationship, like you weresaying, whether it's peers or
family or intimate partnership,you mirror each other, like you
(13:03):
will trigger each other, whichis why, you know, in therapy I
kind of try to I don't directlynecessarily say this, but it's
the I genuinely think that mostpeople act by doing what they
(13:23):
think is best, like they aren'tpurposely malicious.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
That doesn't mean that they're meeting your needs.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
But I think it's important to think about that
because, yeah, when you'reabandoning yourself in order to
try to get something fromsomebody else, it's something
that needs to be like, addressedwithin you it's something that
needs to be like, addressedwithin you.
That doesn't mean what'shappening is wrong, right or
right in the relationship.
Those are individualcircumstances, obviously, but if
(13:54):
you feel so compelled right tokeep grasping at that and
they're not meeting you, so it'slike what?
Speaker 1 (14:03):
is it?
Speaker 2 (14:03):
inside what needs to heal in there.
Yeah, what does it say aboutyou?
That that person is not givingyou what you need.
What do you feel like it'ssaying and why are you?
Speaker 1 (14:16):
expecting this of this person Right and not soul
searching within, Like a greatbook from Young Playbook like
Inward.
Have you read that book?
it's so good and it's reallylike it's really small little
pages, but you really kind oflike little tips, like it's.
I feel like it's like a pottybook, like every day it's like,
oh wow, I didn't think I coulddo that.
(14:37):
You know, it's like littlethings we don't think about
because I think from very youngwe are taught or conditioned
just in society or whatever yourbackground, and just to seek
from external yeah, we're notnecessarily depending on you,
know.
I feel like I do my best toinstill this into my children.
(15:00):
Is you know, seek from internal, Like what is it that you need
today?
Is you know, seek from internal, like what is it that you need
today?
And that should be what shapesand forms.
You know who you surroundyourself with and what you're
doing and what you're eating,how you're moving your body.
You know whatever that means islike, go inward first instead
of thinking like I need it fromhere.
(15:20):
It's like what in here can I doto nurture myself first?
Speaker 2 (15:27):
yeah, I agree with that.
I think people just get reallyconfused as time goes on.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
That's well because we have all of these
overstimulating.
We need you to be this, we needto do this.
We need intermittent fast.
We need to do that.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Like well, there's so much shit out there, even at
school, like even young, andlike thinking about kids that
are maybe neurodiverse and likehow they have to, or a lot of
times feel like they have tomask, like their behaviors or
(15:58):
symptoms because they aren'taccepted by their peers, and
then that creates like a wholeplethora of self abandonment,
which is really heartbreaking.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Yeah, and being empowered by who they are.
And accepting that and I thinktoo, becomes like understanding
the other.
One of my favorite quotes islike other people's opinion of
you doesn't matter and it's noneof your business.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Yes, and trust me, I do it to myself all the time.
But if we can reallyinternalize that like just take
a minute to think about that?
Is that, like, just take aminute to think about that?
Because why is it as humans, dowe try to please other people?
(16:51):
Why is it that we do get intothese situations or
relationships or careers, orwhere we lose that authenticity
or or shelter what we reallywant or or, you know, don't use
our voice, yeah, and justconform.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
I think that's a twofold kind of response.
I think it's almost like partof us doesn't know what we want
all the time.
You know, when you're young youmight think you want X, y and Z
life.
I mean, I remember when Iworked with kids.
They would be like I have mywhole, like I'm going to get
(17:28):
married at 18.
And I'm like okay yeah, and I'mgoing to be a doctor by the
time I'm 24.
Like they have this idea.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
MASH.
Did you ever play the game,mash?
Speaker 2 (17:38):
I'm going to get a mansion, like I know it's going
to happen because I got it.
But so we have these ideas, butwe don't really know what we
want because we haven't hadenough experience, right.
And then I think on the otherside of that, you know, when
we're growing up and I hate tolike, attribute everything, to
(18:01):
like attachment and this andthat, but that's a big part of
stuff so when you don't haveyour needs met, necessarily,
when you're younger or you're,you know, taught to accommodate
or like say, not ask questionswhy you have to do things, then
(18:21):
you kind of lose that touch withyour own intuition and you kind
of go into everything likelistening to other people and
this is the way I'm supposed tobehave, and then it takes a lot
of unlearning you know, andlet's touch on attachment styles
, because that is my jam, andwhen I realized what I kind of
(18:47):
fall into, yeah, what I can seehow I've fell into, kind of grew
out of.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
You know, it's like you, because constantly evolving
again.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
So I love that you just said that, because, number
one, your attachment style isnot permanent.
No, nothing is permanent, rightI'm anxious, they'll see
something on social media.
I'm anxious, like that is who Iam, and I'm like, no, like, no.
(19:21):
Actually that's not really thesituation, but it varies from
relationship to relationship.
It does from person to person.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
I mean my relationship with my mother is
very different than myrelationship with my husband,
and very different myrelationship with my kids and
very different my relationshipwith my peers.
Yeah, and so I have a differenttype of attachment style to
everyone in my life right.
So give us a little brief onthe different attachment styles
and kind of Well there's anxiousattachment, which you know has
(19:52):
a bunch of different.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
It's easiest for me to talk about it, I guess, in
context to a romanticrelationship, generally speaking
.
But there's the anxiousattachment, avoidant attachment,
disorganized attachment, andthen secure attachment.
Right, in regards to, like, anintimate partnership, an anxious
(20:15):
person might be the person thatidentifies as like,
overanalyzing everything, kindof trying to figure things out
to anticipate the way somebodyelse might act or respond to
them before they do they workthemselves up by trying to fix
(20:36):
the relationship before anythinghappens, right.
I used to very much relate tothat one early on, and then the
dismissive on the other side.
That's kind of like the otherside of the pendulum.
The dismissive is the one orthe individual who is like
(20:58):
you're freaking me out when youwant to get too close, like it's
too much for me, you're, youknow, getting in my space.
I feel overwhelmed, I'm notgoing to be able to engage with
you Also.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
I felt like I can relate to that one in a
different relationship.
Well, and I'm thinking of thesethings too, and it really
depends on like who the personis with you right, and like what
that person brings alive insideof you, right Rosenberg would
stay, and that's what brings upthose time, because just think
(21:37):
of it like since birth, we'vehad different relationships,
like our mother and fatherrelationship with different, our
relationship with ourgrandparents, like.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
So, thinking back into my or before I go there,
let's finish the attachment,okay, so then there's
disorganized and it's like I'mnot sure if I like you or not,
like I'm not sure why I'mfeeling that way, just very
unsure of their inner responseto what is going on in the
(22:06):
exterior and relationship topeople, like they're kind of a
mishmash of both of those.
And then they're secure andobviously like everybody wants
to be secure all the time andthat I really feel like is
earned in a relationship,because, you know, not everyone
(22:30):
has experienced trauma and Ithink that word gets feel bad
and leave wounds Right.
And I like to.
You know I refer to that a lotas just unprocessed life.
Yeah, like sometimes we haveunprocessed life Right.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
And I think that's a great way.
Yeah, because it's normalized,because we all have something in
our life and our body and itcould be something that didn't
even happen to us.
It's something that wewitnessed in our family
situation.
It could be something that wewitnessed with friends and their
families Right.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Or more subtle things .
But I think that when you're inrelationship with somebody, you
can learn to heal those thingswith each other.
I mean, I even think and a lotof people are like, oh my gosh,
when there's an anxious andavoidant together, because
they're, they like go throughcycles, that's a very common
(23:38):
relationship, dynamicrelationship dynamic.
But I will say it's not, youknow, easy.
But I think that those peopleare drawn to each other for a
reason and they can, if they'reboth able to be accountable for
how they come in, become secureif it's meant to be.
(24:01):
They're like, prepared for thatwork, like that deep work, a
lot of freaking work.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
I will tell you firsthand it is a lot of work
and it takes a lot of inwardsearching, a lot of transparency
and communication, yes, and alot of trust.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
It does.
You have to be really willingto face your own shit and
avoidance.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Don't like to do that and anxious, don't like to do
that because me coming more fromlike an anxious attachment.
So again, what different personI'm talking about.
My now husband, um, was more oflike uh, oh well, if this
happens, this is going to happenand that's kind of what led to
those PTSD or PTSD patterns andit's like, well, it doesn't
always have to be cause andeffect, like you've created this
(24:49):
whole monstrosity of a story inyour mind.
You know I'm talking like wayback, but like thinking the
worst is going to happen, orthat was my own conditioning.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Didn't really have anything to do with him, and
that's so valid, though, becauseour history shapes our world.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Yeah, like it is.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
And then there's the cycle of shame with that for an
anxious person to like.
You know, why am I doing this?
I can think logically Well,it's not actually illogical what
you're thinking either.
So you know, it's just gettingin all this stuff and kind of
seeing things as they are.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Yeah well, and it's really just and um, do you have
any good resources forresearching the attachment
styles for the listeners outthere?
I always like to kind of throwa resource out there any good
books or anything like that andif so, we, if it even pops up
later, yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
I actually have a.
I want to give you an accountthat I follow on social media,
but I want to make sure I giveyou the right handle.
I think it's the secureattachment therapist, but I'm
going to confirm that.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
Okay, I think I follow them as well, something
like that, which is reallyinteresting because, you know,
having my daughter at 25, havingmy son at 35, realizing Matt
and I have tried so hard in thisage of parenting I mean 10,.
Our other kids are 10, 11, and13 years older than our almost
five-year-old and he has, likethe healthiest, secure
(26:21):
attachments.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Like he's great.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
He's excited when his nanny gets there, he's excited
when mommy gets home, when daddygets home, he's fine when we
leave.
And you know, there's dayswhere he's like I'm a little bit
sad and I missed you.
And just seeing that andknowing the difference and then
me thinking like you know how Iwas at his age when I had to
leave my grandmother, who was myperson, and it was like what's
(26:48):
gonna happen to me, what youknow, just thinking of like the
internal and seeing that's like,oh, we've done such a good job,
he's secure I mean, we all haveour but that to me, I think,
was like a huge goal.
Coming into this new chapter isjust creating a secure, safe
place.
Yeah, um, not only for him butfor myself and for the rest of
our family and my friends and mypeers and you I'm sure you get
this often you tell someoneyou're a mental health
professional and you're sittingon the plate and they're like
(27:10):
okay you owe me like 600 bucks.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
I'm just kidding.
Well, a lot of people like todivulge.
You know, what do you thinkabout this?
And I'm like oh my gosh thenuance.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
I can't get it I think it also speaks to like
you're a safe person.
You know and people feel likeyou're a safe place, whether
probably even not even knowingwhat your profession is.
Yeah, I feel like they can talkto you and I think I mean you
and I.
The first time we ever hadcoffee were like deep into the
weeds of like life and family,yeah.
(27:43):
But it was a beautiful thingbecause it was like, okay, I
mean, we knew a little bit abouteach other's background, but I
think that just speaks to havingsafe people, having a safe
place.
So you know research, if youfeel like, whatever your
attachment style might be, thereare resources out there for you
.
Lisa is one of them.
So you know this is what shedoes on the day to day and
helping people process throughtheir life and their, you know,
(28:04):
working on the deep, deep innerstuff and you know, getting kind
of moving forward into likereclaiming your voice.
So we get into these situations.
We lose ourselves, whether it'scareer, relationships, whatever
.
Yeah, what do you recommend forpeople, whether it's romantic,
(28:27):
family, parental, peer, likereclaiming their voice after,
say and I hate to use the wordnarcissism or narcissist because
I think it's way too trendy andall the things, but an
emotionally manipulativerelationship.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Well, the first thing that I recommend to anybody
that comes in and presents withthat to me, and even just like
friends, although I might bemore candid- in those situations
.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Right, and this is speaking off the record, we're
not in a session, right?
Speaker 2 (29:05):
But I tell people because a lot of times how that
starts is you're overreacting,like your feelings aren't valid
because of what I said, like itcould be oh, I'm single in
public and you've been datingsomebody for a long time and
(29:27):
them being like that hurt myfeelings and they go.
I'm just kidding, right, andthat's gaslighting, right first
of all.
But then you have to be able tobe like no, actually no right
my feelings are valid,regardless of your fucking
(29:48):
intentions.
Like that is a firm point forpeople when they're feeling like
you know I'm trying to reclaimwho.
I am Validating your emotions.
That's different than acting onyour emotions too.
I'll also say that you don'twant to go start screaming at
(30:11):
everybody that I'm right all thetime.
No, because you know everybodyhas their own truth.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Right, I was going to say your perspective of what
might be right is probably notthe other person's perspective,
that's why I really tried to noteven use the words like right
and wrong.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Right.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Because it's all just personal.
We create our own reality,right?
Speaker 2 (30:30):
But I think, when people are, feel or are in
manipulative relationshipsituations.
It becomes about convincing theother person that they're not
right or like that theiremotions or where they're coming
from.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
They're devaluing that person.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Right, and it's kind of a control tactic to a degree,
and that could be because theother person's afraid of being
abandoned and hasn't done theirwork.
I mean narcissists.
There are few, true, like thatis a very small percentage of
people that fit into that actualpersonality disorder.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
And honestly that personality disorder really does
stem from their you and nottaking the time and space to
hear you, to try to understand.
I mean, that's one of thebiggest deal breakers for me in
a friendship and a romanticrelationship and anything Like.
if you cannot hear me andunderstand where I'm coming from
(31:55):
, you don't have to be able torelate to it or I just want you
like that is compassion right,like being able to hear and
understand someone's perspectiveand point of view, even if it
is not your own and notsomething you agree with.
But being able to hold thatspace for them is key.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
It is that's solid right there.
I think that is really important, because a lot of people like I
always say this to people too.
You know a lot of people thatcome into therapy with me, you
know might be dealing withrelationship, dynamic issues,
aside from other things, andthey'll be like you know, we, or
(32:38):
, if they've broken up withsomebody that's in a
relationship like this, theymight say something like we
never fought, like it was great,and I and I'm like, well, no,
not exactly, because, right,like you, aren't the two exact
same person, so somebody was notsaying something.
Like there wasn't communicationthere, and I think you know
(33:04):
being able to have conflict orthose conversations that are
hard or important, um, butreally, you're right, if
somebody is not able to hear it,it doesn't really matter, it's
not going to be, doesn't change,you can't control, and I think
(33:24):
that's part of reclaiming yourvoice to somebody else and
reclaiming it internally.
Like you have to be like, okay,this is my truth and I own that
, and like that's theirs and Ican't convince them.
Right, like how's it going toserve me to keep arguing about
(33:45):
it?
Right, but you have to get tothat point, right.
It takes work on yourself to beable to be like I'm going to
just drop it.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
Right, I'm going to drop it and I'm going to process
to why I'm even chasing my tailwith it and giving it energy,
and that's.
I think something reallyimportant is, no matter what
type of relationship you're in,including yourself, no matter
what type of relationship you'rein, including yourself,
allowing yourself this space andtime to process, because so
(34:16):
often we are busy and we'regoing through the motions and
you know, maybe it's like aconversation we want to have and
we don't get around to itbecause it's not a great time,
because we're busy or like youknow.
So, the more you like, just letthings go, yeah, and don't face
them as they like.
That's why I always keep anotebook.
I probably have 15 notebooks inmy car.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Not really.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
But I literally, in every bag I have which I have
bags I switch off and there's anotebook, there's something in
there, because I write thingsdown.
Like, if it's something I wantto chat with my husband about,
well, I'm not going to call himin the middle of the day when
he's at work and I'm, you know,commuting to get kids, cause
it's not going to be in time foran intentional conversation.
It's something I need todiscuss with my mom.
It's like, or my kids, or youknow a friend, you know just
(35:00):
creating space to have thoseintentional conversations.
And if it's something you needto process through yourself,
taking that time to do it foryourself, like that's why I'm a
journal all the time, love it.
And sometimes it's like, oh,this is what we did this weekend
, it was great.
And other times it's like Ithink I astral projected last
night and I went to this otherspiritual realm and what is the
(35:20):
purpose behind this?
Because it means somethingbigger.
And what is life trying toteach me right now?
And that's the way that I thinkI look at all of these, every,
every relationship and everydifferent opportunity is like
what opportunity is.
it's giving me Cause.
Like you said, it's a mirror.
So why is it that I keep, or Ihave, or who you know?
I'm not necessarily speakingfor myself, but why is it that
(35:42):
we seek relationships thataren't fulfilling yet?
Yet we keep seeking the sametype of behaviors, and it's
because we haven't taken time toprocess inward, like we said
earlier, why what it is we'reneeding from the external, and
do we need anything at all fromthe external is the question.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Well, I think, yes, I think we need connection as
humans, right?
Like I don't think, I mean, Iguess there are hermits, but I
don't know any but I think thatpeople crave connection, Like
that feels good to be heard bysomebody else that feels good to
(36:27):
be heard by somebody else.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
I mean that's why people come to me.
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
But, I think that we are drawn to people until the
experience is fully absorbed andI don't want to say a lesson,
because it's not, because it'snot, but it's like you're drawn
to certain people, I think,because they show you something
that you need to heal inyourself, yeah, and that repeats
until you're able to sit likecome to the realization,
(37:01):
whatever it is, yeah what do youthink in your own life, has
been that for you?
Oh my gosh.
Well, I've been in someunhealthy relationships in my
life and everything.
I kind of think a lot oftherapists are actually drawn to
(37:23):
the field because of that, 100%yeah it's like we have our own
demons In some way, whether it'sfirst or second, yeah, I think
(37:44):
that in my relationships Iidentified very much with the
anxious attachment and like I'mtrying to earn whatever to be
reciprocated to me, and theneventually it was like no, I
(38:08):
don't like why I am trying toearn my worthiness.
Well, I'm trying to, you know,anticipate what was going to go
wrong, or like, how should Iword this to soften?
And I was like, why am I doingthat?
Why am I softening things?
So I think that definitely wasone of the biggest lessons that
I have to take and, with thatsaid, you know there's a time
(38:30):
and a place to address thingsright.
You know, I'm I'm very aware ofthat too, and that you know,
like I said, I feel like mostpeople genuinely do come from a
good place, but that doesn'tmean that they're good for you,
Right, and that's a big thing.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
And it's like knowing that, wow, you know, this looks
like externally everythinglooks great, yeah, but why isn't
it good for me?
And it's like, and coming tothe acceptance of that, yeah,
like that's okay.
And I think that's why you knowmarriages are great and then
you know people dissolve themeventually because that's great
(39:10):
for that period of your life.
But it's okay to transition andtransform because that's the
evolution of life and noteveryone and this is something
someone told me a while back noteveryone wants to heal and not
everyone wants to grow.
And some people are fine theway they are and genuinely fine.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
They're happy to go to work, they're content, and
that's great.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
It is, and I don't think I've ever been one of
those people.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
No.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
But I think those people are awesome.
But, I think it's just reallycool to know that, like not
everyone is going to get it.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
Right and I think you're right really being able
to accept that from a place ofsomebody who wants to constantly
be evolving and growing, thatlike okay, that's okay if
they're not there and like Ihave to be okay with that, I'm
not going to make them see, likeI'm not going to make them come
to my side, right.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
And it comes with just having the healthy
separation and those healthyboundaries of knowing like
that's them and that's whatserves them, and that's OK.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
I think it takes a long time and a lot of work to
get to that point.
I will say oh, 100%, and Ithink that's where the why when
you were asking why people areattracted to certain people,
it's because that hasn'thappened yet, because they're
trying to fix whatever of me.
(40:39):
It negates all these otherpeople that have left.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
You know like I'm convincing you of whatever I
need, or even just taking a stepback to appreciate that person
for who they are.
Yes, it's like when I stoppedtrying to fix my husband and I
did a whole.
A reel went viral on that.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
It was the biggest thing because people can
identify with that.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
And it's like you don't all like like why you love
him in the first place ifyou're always trying to fix him.
Yeah, you know that's not fairand and so when I took a step
back and was like, hey, like hehas his own journey and he has
his own, you know not that wedidn't need things that we need
to communicate that and betransparent about, and both
needed to do inner work.
But he did the inner work, yeah, and I was very fortunate
(41:30):
enough that he took those stepsto do that work for himself.
He didn't have to make thatchoice right um, and and that, I
think, goes for a lot of, youknow, any relationship, not even
just romantic friendships likeit's okay for someone to be a
part of a chapter.
Not everyone goes along thewhole stretch.
Yeah, not everyone goes thewhole route and that's okay.
(41:53):
So, coming to that acceptancethat like, hey, I've had really
great friends and we're not asyou know, we don't do as much as
we used to anymore, but we'reclose in different ways, like I
always hold space for them indifferent ways because I
genuinely love them.
Yeah, but our social lives area little different, right, and
that's okay.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
Like I love them for them, and I love that they have
the stamina to go out and dothings that just don't serve me
anymore.
Yeah, but it's not about them,it's about me and like what
serves me, and it doesn't meanthey need to fix anything, it
just means that that, okay,we're just different, right, and
I think that that's part ofreclaiming your voice.
(42:32):
It is, and like coming back toyourself is just understanding,
like it's okay to have theacceptance and when we start to
have that acceptance andcompassion that we're all living
this beautiful, crazy, wild,dysfunctional human experience
we call life.
(42:53):
and finding the beauty in thatand being able to hold space for
other people, I think is, um,it says something and it and it
honestly really helped merelease that anxious attachment
style is just being likewhatever is supposed to happen
is going to happen, likesurrendering to the flow.
I did a whole ladies retreat onthis, coming up like just
(43:15):
owning that and just embracingit.
It doesn't mean you have to putup with shit.
It just means that you'reembracing things and kind of
understanding how to cope andnavigate along the way.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
Right, and I think that all of that is 100% true
and I agree with that.
I think people get you know,stuck at certain points, like
when they're grieving arelationship like, and when
you're talking about marriage inparticular, I mean I'm divorced
, but I think when somebodychooses not to do the growth,
(43:51):
you can get really stuck thereright, like nobody goes into
marriage thinking, oh, thisisn't going to last, I'm going
to be one of the 50% that getsdivorced.
I'm meaning you're right.
When you get out of that, Ithink you can see clearly like
that was a part of my journeyfor better or worse.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
However you look at it.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
I had a beautiful child, I learned a lot of life
lessons.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
But it doesn't necessarily feel that way and
hopefully they do.
Hopefully, people do when theycome out of it Right.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
But there's a different way to look at it,
right, and I think that is thechoice of the person who is?
Reflecting on it and says howthey will be able to move
forward in their future.
But also, with that said, I wastrying to say like I think when
people get really stuck on thatgrief, like I love that person,
(44:46):
I really want them to stay onthis journey with me.
It can be really heartbreakingand not, you know, rushing and
be like, okay, well, that'stheir journey.
Like sometimes you're like fuckthem.
Like you know, I mean, that'sreally painful and that's
totally valid too, like you'reright Wherever you're at.
(45:08):
It's kind of like you have tobe like okay, that's why I said
really it starts with validatingyour feelings where you're at
is so important to getting intouch with your gut and where
you are Right.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
And just intuitively knowing, giving yourself the
space and time and compassion togrieve, giving yourself that
you know what you would giveothers in those situations and,
oh my God, I feel like we couldtalk all day long I know, I know
and we'll be back.
I feel like this is going to belike a three part series.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
I'm like I don't want to Now.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
I'm in my jail so many more notes, so many more
notes, but I have to pick mykids up today.
Yeah, this has been.
I mean, again, it's justliterally opening up the door.
So we'll be back for part twoand part three.
We are, we're coming back.
Um, anything you want to leaveour guests with today, with
(46:12):
anything that we talked aboutand touched on, because I feel
like we very briefly coveredsome of the stuff we could go
into two-hour conversationsabout each day, right?
Speaker 2 (46:22):
um, something that I feel and we talked about this
before the show, because I haveall my notes here I think a lot
about being intentional and.
I know you do too.
When you're talking about thesetopics, it's very important to
(46:43):
consider nuance in everysituation, that are nuanced in
every situation, and I thinkthere's no such thing like you
have to be able to heal andembody yourself, but don't be so
focused on healing that youmiss out on your life.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
Like, forget to have the fun stuff.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
Yeah, you are gonna mess up.
No matter what, the tools andresources that you have can be
plentiful.
You could be the creator of aof cognitive behavioral therapy
and still have problems that isthe nature of our existence like
(47:21):
just yeah, be with yourself.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
Don't be so hard on yourselves, right, like, just
learn to love and show yourselfthose joyful moments.
And just because I, you know Iget into something, I go all in
and I've been that person,that's like I'm over healing.
I just need to you know likeI'm overdoing it and that's
actually something we're goingto come back and do a whole
podcast on healing versusperformance.
(47:48):
Healing, yes, so somethingwe're both very passionate about
, especially in social mediaworld and all the stuff out
there.
So we're going to revamp andlook at our schedules right
after this and that's going tobe coming out in the next few
weeks after this one.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
You said something really important, though I want
(48:23):
to say too Go for it desperately, need that all over.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
Because that's really what it is right.
Yeah, it's like that's, if youreally look back at any of the
ancient texts and religion, likethe basis is really just like
the unconditional love and careand nurturing and just providing
that love to honor our spiritand our existence.
Thank you so much, lisa, forbeing here today, and I look
(48:47):
forward to part two coming up Metoo.
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