Narcissism, Untangled with Dr. Kathy Tolleson

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Ever been charmed by someone who later made you doubt your memory, your needs, or your sanity? We go straight to the heart of narcissism—beyond the buzzword—and map the spectrum from overt to covert to malignant, revealing how early overindulgence or deep neglect can shape an empathy deficit that ripples through families, workplaces, and love lives. With Dr. Kathy Tolleson back in the studio, we translate clinical nuance into everyday patterns you can actually spot: love bombing that feels like fate, gaslighting that fogs your reality, and rage that erupts when control slips.

We talk about why addicts often display narcissistic behaviors, how recovery can clarify what’s trait versus substance-driven, and why true narcissistic personality disorder resists accountability. You’ll hear how narcissistic parents can look like heroes while kids are small, then turn critical when those kids individuate—and how that dynamic plants people-pleasing, perfectionism, or chronic rebellion in adult children. We ground it in practical tests: do you have a voice and are you truly heard; does conflict lead to compromise or punishment; and when you set a boundary, does the relationship stabilize or spin?

This conversation is a guide and a guardrail: tools to identify red flags, frameworks to plan a safe exit, and resources to rebuild confidence and community. From differentiating overt charm from covert self-pity, to navigating divorce with minimal collateral damage, to protecting your prefrontal cortex so empathy and judgment can lead again—consider this your map out of the maze. If you’ve felt crazy, you’re not; if you’ve felt small, you won’t stay that way. Subscribe, share with someone who needs clarity, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway so others can find this support too.

Thank you for joining me today. Please know that this podcast and the information shared is not to replace or supplement any mental health or personal wellness modalities provided by practitioners. It’s simply me, sharing my personal experiences and I appreciate you respecting and honoring this space and my guests. If you find my content relatable, please feel free to like, share and subscribe. Have a beautiful day full of gratitude, compassion and unconditional love.

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Welcome to this episode of Crystal Queer,
everyone.
Thanks for being here.
I am excited.
We have a returning guest, ThirdTime's a Charm, for Dr.
Kathy Tollison, made her way toSarasota to be with us today.
And we have a really funconversation lineup.

SPEAKER_03 (00:16):
So thank you.
Yes.
When Crystal asked me to talkabout our subject, I was
wondering how many days we had.

SPEAKER_02 (00:24):
I know.
Or lifetimes or exactly.
So yeah, I don't know how funactually it's going to be.
I refer to it as fun, butinsightful.
So, you know, the wordnarcissism is thrown around so
much these days.
And it's kind of one of thosewords I don't really like to use
because of that.

(00:45):
It's trendy, you know, it's it'severywhere.
But to me, from my perspective,what I've learned throughout my
coaching with you, throughout mylife journey, throughout the
research and the healing and allthe things is, you know, there's
a there's like a core kind of Idon't want to say motive to

(01:06):
that, or like, but essentiallynarcissism is emotionally
emotional unavailability,correct?

SPEAKER_03 (01:13):
Like it's one of the elements.
One of the elements.
One of the elements.

SPEAKER_02 (01:17):
Kind of, I don't know.
Let's just dive in.
Just break it down for us.
Like, what does that mean?

SPEAKER_03 (01:22):
The first thing I would say is it's very important
to understand that narcissismruns on a continuum.
It's it's not just all ornothing.
There's varying degrees ofnarcissism.
There's different types ofnarcissism.
There's what we call malignantnarcissism, which can be very

(01:43):
wicked and um very extremelyself-serving and really damaging
to other people, which is partof where we get narcissistic
personality disorder, which is aclinical diagnosis.

SPEAKER_02 (01:57):
Yes.
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (01:58):
And um, but a lot of times people will have
narcissistic tendencies in area,but I you you can't just label
that, well, they're anarcissist.
Right.
And I think that's the term wethrow around and we label people
in in a wrong way.
Um, but uh, you know, thedifferent, there's like I said,

(02:21):
overt narcissism, there's covertnarcissism, and um, and they're
different.
And like I said, even in that,there's different levels of
narcissism.

SPEAKER_02 (02:31):
Just like a spectrum, just like anything
else.

SPEAKER_03 (02:32):
Yes, like yeah, like autism spectrum.
It's not all or nothing.
And so I think too many peoplemaybe have someone who's
immature or um maybe a littleselfish, and right away they're
a narcissist.
And that's not necessarily true.

SPEAKER_01 (02:49):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (02:49):
But at the core of narcissism is an inability to
have empathy for other people.
They have they have troubleputting themselves in the shoes
of another person of how theymight feel and what they might
need.
And it's very, it's anegocentric world.

(03:11):
I always say that, you know,every every teenager goes
through a narcissistic stage,you know, because they're very
egocentric.
It's all about them, it's notabout what your schedule is
needs, or, you know, I wonderhow mom and dad would feel about
that.
It's it's about me.
But as we mature, we mature outof that and or should.

(03:35):
Right.
But when there's corenarcissistic traits in someone,
they they don't.
And that can be at differentlevels.
And again, uh narcissism is ahard one for people who aren't
narcissistic to understand.
Because if you care about peopleand you you think about how they

(03:57):
might feel, or um, you don'tfeel like, you know, you
deserve, you know, narcissists alot of times believe they
deserve special attention, oryou know, if um, had this like
grandioso type.
Yes, I'm I'm more important thaneverybody else, you know.
Even even driving, you know, alot of some of the road rage is

(04:19):
actually narcissistic road rage.
I'm the most important person,and where I need to go is the
most important place, you know.
So there's again, there's allkinds of different levels of it,
but I think part of what peopleneed to know is that it it comes

(04:39):
from two different spectrums,which is very interesting, is
and it it stems from earlychildhood, really, the roots,
true narcissism lies in in thoseroots.
And there's two sides of thespectrum.
One of it is they were, youknow, they might have been an
only child, only grandchild,indulged, you know, or maybe,

(05:04):
maybe the youngest baby camealong later.
Um, they got what they wantedall the time.
Nobody told them no.
They just are the overindulgednarcissist.
And then you have the one whotheir ego at a young age was
extremely neglected.

(05:25):
They didn't get the attention,they didn't get the care, they
didn't get the emotionalconnection that would cause them
to care about another personbecause they weren't cared
about, their needs were not inconcern, so they don't really
know how to have a concern andcare about another person.
And so it's two oppositeextremes.

(05:48):
But um, and with narcissism,again, from the mental health
perspective, it is like one ofthe hardest things to treat
because they don't ever thinkthey have the problem.
Because if they own the problem,their own ego is too fragile.
Um, you would look at anarcissist who can, especially

(06:11):
the the um overt, they they canwalk in a room, they can charm
everybody, everybody loves them.
Uh you know, they can, you know,just be the most wonderful
person.
And um, you would think, well,they don't have a fragile ego.
But if there's that narcissismthere, they really do because

(06:32):
they have to have thatattention.
You know, some um people are getconfused because they like,
well, he but he's such a goodperson, or she's such a good
person, and you know, she helpsall of these um, you know,
foundations or sits on boards orwhatever.
And you can, whether you havemoney or not, no money, all in

(06:53):
between, uh a narcissist canlook altruistic, but that's just
it.
They want to look that right.

SPEAKER_02 (07:02):
They they feel like they want to play the role on to
be on the stage, they need toget the accolades, they need the
awards, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (07:11):
Especially the overt uh narcissists.
They if they weren't patted onthe back for what they did, they
won't be doing it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 (07:20):
And and it's I feel like I'm like opposite of that
when it comes to some stuff likethat.
Sometimes it's likeuncomfortable for people to like
dote on you too much when you'redoing things that are just from
yes, just to help someone andjust from your heart and things
like that.

SPEAKER_03 (07:35):
Like awkward, but um, narcissists will learn that
when I do these certain things,people think I'm wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 (07:44):
So they do those things.
It's really interesting becausewhen our youngest son started,
kind of like kindergarten thisyear, um, we were talking about
the difference between liketraditional school and this
alternative type school thathe's going to.
And this alternative typeschool, they're building
community, they're giving them,you know, challenges, letting

(08:06):
them guiding them to find thesolutions on their own.
Whereas in traditional, thismasculine traditional society
wherein it's all like you'realways seeking the reward, the
pizza party, the the goodgrades, the honor roll, the
this, it's like it's all aboutthe accolades.
But the way she explained it wasbrilliant because it's like if
we're always seeking the reward,we don't like we we take the

(08:29):
meaning away from the action ofdoing the right thing or or
learning something.
Like learning doesn't matter,it's the grade that matters.

SPEAKER_03 (08:37):
Right, right.
You know, and am I better andright?

SPEAKER_02 (08:39):
So it's like in in this, it just made me think of
that because it's like thebehavior doesn't matter.
It's like I just want thereward.

SPEAKER_03 (08:44):
Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 (08:45):
And so tell us kind of break down if you can what
the difference between thedifferent types are.

unknown (08:51):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (08:51):
You said malignant, you said covert, you said over.

SPEAKER_03 (08:54):
Yeah, so malignant goes into like the um
narcissistic personalitydisorder.
The extremes.
And they are, you know, they'relike um, if you've ever heard of
Bernie Madoff, who just rippedoff a huge amount of people with
investment, millions, probablybillions, it got close to, of

(09:16):
money.
Uh they're they're malignant inthis terms of the damage that
they can and will do to peopleand totally justify it.
And, you know, a lot of timesreally blame their victims.
Um and so that's like on thehighest spectrum.
The covert, like I said, there,and and let me explain this too.

(09:39):
We talked about, you know, uhwith gender, there are still
more male narcissists in oursociety than female.
Um, it used to be like maybelike 2080 on that.
I feel like it's way higher thanthat.
Well, right now females in thelast like 20, 30 years has

(10:00):
really climbed in the number offemale narcissists that there
are.
And, you know, there can be anumber of different factors to
that.
Um, we I think women have takenback their power in some ways,
but it sometimes, you know,again, if you have other issues,
you can take that too far.

(10:22):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (10:22):
And that's actually makes me think.
So so something popped up whenyou're saying that.
And before we get too far, Iwant to ask.
So if you think of the past 20,30 years, what's happened?
More women have gone back towork.

SPEAKER_03 (10:33):
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (10:34):
And we're more working moms now.
So it's not always dad beinggone or dad traveling and mom
being home and having dinnerready for us and being there to
be the nurturing people in thehome.
So I don't know, I just thoughtcrossed my mind like maybe does
that have something to do withit?
Maybe it's more of like well,and I think it's the validation,

(10:54):
like we've talked aboutsimilarly.

SPEAKER_03 (10:56):
Well, and a lot of children haven't been getting as
much of the nurture, the truenurture that's a lot of people.
That's what I mean.
Yes.
And um, so there's been anincrease.
I mean, again, social media, ourwhole society, especially
America.
America is one of the highestlevels of narcissism.
But, you know, our whole, youknow, stars and sports figures

(11:22):
and you know, idolization of allof that is um, I think has also
increased that whole thing.

SPEAKER_02 (11:30):
Well, it's just a very ego-driven society that we
live in here.
Yeah.
It's like this grandioso, likemore is better.
And, you know, I mean, you and Ihave talked about this a lot.
Like the more we accumulate inour life, the less I want, and
the less the less I feelfulfilled.
So it's like, I'm even in aplace right now, I want to kind

(11:50):
of simplify because I don't wantto be the mom that's working so
much that my kids aren't gettingthe nurturing that they need.
I don't want to, you know, yes,I want to give back, but if I
have the opportunity to not haveto be that, and you know, and
taking your power back too.
You said that.
And it's like, so I see that alot kind of in this empowerment

(12:12):
world.
You know, power means somethingvery different to a lot of
people.
Yes.
Exactly.
So the way we're talking aboutit is people want like power,
they want to be in control, theywant to, you know, that's not
being empowered.

SPEAKER_03 (12:26):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (12:27):
And that to me, I think is the biggest difference
because my girlfriends and Iwere like, oh, you know, like,
you know, own your power.
And then I'm thinking to myself,some people think of this way
differently than than we do.
Yeah.
When it comes to this.

SPEAKER_03 (12:40):
Well, and I think too, even in, you know, we have
such a high-level um numbers ofdivorced parents who, again, a
lot of times they're having totry to buy their kids or they
don't dare discipline themenough because they don't want,
you know, a child who doesn'teven want to come and see them

(13:00):
because they discipline ordifferent things.
So I think there's a lot ofdifferent factors.
But the thing is, it isdefinitely on the increase in
our society, and it has uhincreased the stats for women
narcissists.
And, you know, I come across alot of both.
And um give us an example oflike um Let me do oh go ahead.

(13:22):
Can I do covert?
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, yeah, yes.
Because I think covert isprobably one of the least
understood, but coverts have aquieter personality, they don't
have to come in and be thecenter of attention, even though
they secretly would like to be,but they never were.
A lot of times they theymaintain a a victim status in

(13:42):
the sense of, you know, well, Icould have been great at at
sports, but you know, my coachjust overlooked me.
Or I could have been, you know,I could have been, you know,
probably a great singer, but mymom didn't ever take me to
singing lessons and no one eversupported me.
So they still hold a sense oftheir own greatness, but also

(14:06):
were never able to really attainit.
So they're very they're likeblaming it on blaming it on
others, very much a victim, butstill some of the commonality,
they they're not able to takeownership.
And you know, if someone sayssomething to them, uh with the
the the covert, let's say in arelationship, some one

(14:29):
challenges the covert andthey're like, Oh, you're you're
crazy.
I'm not that da-da-da-da.
Look at I did this, this, this,this.
They'll give a whole litany.
And with the overt, or I meanthe covert, what would happen is
if you say something like, youknow, you I really think you
have a problem in this area, orI think you need to work on

(14:52):
this, it would be, yeah, becauseI'm I'm just the most terrible
person, and you know, and I cannever live up to what you want.
And, you know, I it's like poor,pitiful me.
Poor pitiful me a lot of times.
And they will they will gooverboard the other way, you
know, to get the sympathy,because then the person will
come back and say, No, that'snot what I meant, and you're

(15:15):
really wonderful, and all theseget the attention, they just get
it in that kind of like in a uha more passive, they're they
tend to be a lot more passiveaggressive, okay, and they're
very, you know, they'll be morepassive about things.

SPEAKER_02 (15:30):
More like undermining comments here and
there rather than just blatant.

SPEAKER_03 (15:34):
Yes.
Yes, yes, and um, and they mayeven um be like self-sacrificing
in a way, but self-sacrificingin a way that I need everybody
in the whole family to know howmuch I I sacrificed for them,
you know.
So then everybody goes, Isn'tisn't she great?

(15:56):
Isn't mom great?
Yeah.
Look at what she did.

SPEAKER_02 (15:59):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (16:00):
You know, okay.
Or, you know, but back back andforth.
And so it um yeah, so the the alittle difference, and you know,
there's a lot of things you canstudy online nowadays.
I think that's another reason.
Um, because I I've worked withpeople and it's like there are

(16:22):
certain things in life, only thepuzzle piece of narcissism fits
for that person to get a lightbulb to be able to get well.
Okay, because different degreesof narcissism will cause damage
to different degrees in thepeople around them.
Okay.
So I can have someone as anadult come in and they're still

(16:44):
trying to figure out, you know,why didn't my dad love me and
why do I have so much and whydon't I have any confidence in
why am I?
And when they start talkingabout their father, I mean, to
me, all the red flags.
I mean, this guy, he he mighthave been, you know, the
greatest doctor at the hospital,the chief of police, the
principal at the school, butnarcissism is just screaming,

(17:09):
you know.
And when we start talking aboutit and they start researching
and looking at it, they get thatlight bulb and it's like, oh, it
it wasn't me.
They they had a malfunction,they could never give it to me,
but they always blamed me whythey couldn't give it to me.
Right, you know, and it it'slike that puzzle piece sometimes
or in a marriage, you know, um,especially with the covert.

(17:33):
The the overt can be difficulttoo.

SPEAKER_02 (17:35):
But did you describe the overt yet?

SPEAKER_03 (17:38):
Yeah, the overt are the ones you kind of can
recognize them.
They are, you know, they canwalk in a room and charm
everybody, everything's aboutthem.
They they need the accolades.
They need, you know, if they'regonna go somewhere, they need to
be the prettiest or the sharpestor have the best car or so
they're they're insecure.

(17:58):
So yeah, their their ego is isextremely fragile, but you would
never do it.
And they're always touting whatthey just did, what what you
know, if you say, Oh, I justcame back from my trip to da da
da.
It's like you went to they allthey won up in conversation all
the time.
They always won up, and a lot oftimes they will dominate the

(18:20):
conversation, where the covertmight, the overt might not do
that as you know, in the sameway.
But a lot of times the the thethe covert one still will be
really good at gettingconversation back to them, okay,
you know, back to them.

SPEAKER_02 (18:36):
So do you feel like because I you know I can think
of a handful of peoplethroughout my lifetime that have
had these narcissistictendencies.
I don't know if I've ever reallyhad anyone that was like all in
malignant, but definitelytendencies.
Do you think it's possible?

(18:57):
Because I feel like I feel likeit is, but for someone to have
narcissistic relationships intheir lives, but not with other
people.
So say like a father or amother-son relationship, but
then the son has a decentmarriage, or the daughter has a

(19:18):
you know, great relationshipwith her kids, but she has a
real you know, narcissisticrelationship with her mother.
Oh you know what I mean?
Like it's yeah, people butpeople can have those tendencies
towards someone that they haveold wounds with, yes, but not
but it's recognizing where theold wounds come from.

SPEAKER_03 (19:39):
That's why I'm saying that you know, like
helping someone get overdivorce.
Normal divorce is hard, but ifyou're divorcing a narcissist,
it's hell.
And so realizing that part ofthe reason that relationship
never worked, part of the reasonwhy the divorce was so hard, is

(19:59):
because you're really dealingwith a narcissist.
And that's the puzzle piece.
And and it's so hard for peoplewho aren't to really wrap their
head around that that somebodylike just really doesn't have
that empathy, that really candoesn't care.
Now, a lot of times narcissists,like I said, will tend to learn,

(20:24):
hey, when you go to a funeraland be be empathetic, you know,
you need to show a little youryour sadness.
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (20:31):
Or if they have children, they can they can do
that for their kids.

SPEAKER_03 (20:34):
To a degree, but they're they're looking at their
watch when they can get out ofthere and how quick they can get
out of there.
What they're gonna do next.
They're really not even they'renot present.
They're not really present.
And the other thing, narcissistscan look like really good moms
and really good dads when theirchildren are little, when they
give them a lot of hero worship,when they they make them feel

(20:56):
good about who they are.
But where push comes to shove iswhen that child starts getting
old enough to maybe challengesomething or have diff different
agreements or differentopinions, and they don't just
become kind of minimes, that'swhen pretty soon the the

(21:17):
narcissistic mom or dad thatrelationship will really shift
because they they can't handlethat this person or they start
pointing out like well, youknow, mom, you always care about
that more than I feel like youcare about me or whatever.
When they start challenging,that's when that relationship

(21:40):
will will start distancing withthe normal.
Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 (21:44):
So instead of having the empathy and compassion and
even excitement that your yourchild is individuating.
Yeah.
And so it's almost like thosetypes of parents don't want
their children to individuate,they want them to follow suit,
they want them to go because acertain path that they have
planned for them.

SPEAKER_03 (22:02):
Yeah, I am the hero, I am the heroine.
So I see everything for you.
Right, and you should be, youshould want to be like me and
think like me and you know, makechoices like I do.
And I mean, uh again, anarcissist will cut off
inheritances, you know, very,very easily because you're

(22:22):
you're not you're not followingand you you you've challenged
me, you've questioned me.
And so they will, you know, theycan just cut someone out of
their will very easily.

SPEAKER_02 (22:34):
Yeah.
So what um, you know, it'sinteresting to me because, and I
think it's I mean, it'sdefinitely a huge thing to
mention, like narcissistictendencies, I mean, that's not a
life sentence.
People can take accountabilityfor their life and be open to
healing at any time if they'rewilling to face it and move

(22:55):
forward.
I mean, I've seen it happen, andI think it's really important,
and something that we've talkedabout quite a bit, is like when
you are using substances,especially alcohol, um, and
you're under the influence orpainkillers or whatever, like
anything that's altering yourstate of mind and your

(23:16):
prefrontal cortex and shuttingthat down, that's gonna shut
down your empathy.
So that's you, that's whydomestic violence rates are so
high.
That's why people get in barfights.
That's why, you know, so so itreally not only does it affect
the limbic system, obviously,but when you're in relationships
or you have, you know, or youwitness relationships or your

(23:37):
parents, or anyone who has beenunder, because I, you know, from
my personal experience, Iwitnessed it, and I can't say
that anyone uh probably a couplepeople in my family have some
narcissistic tendencies, butmostly because of their
substance abuse.

SPEAKER_03 (23:57):
Well, and that's one thing that I I always say every
addict is narcissistic.

SPEAKER_02 (24:02):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (24:03):
They are, yeah, but it's about them and what they
need in their egocentric,they're not really thinking
about, well, you you need sometime with me.
They're thinking about how can Iget to my next fix and when can
I when can I have another drinkor when can I go shoot up?
Or um, you know, prescriptiondrugs, the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 (24:21):
I mean, maybe it's not even just substances, maybe
it's anything.

SPEAKER_03 (24:24):
Yeah, it it when there's an addiction, yeah, they
can be very narcissistic.
I mean, uh a woman with ashopping addiction can, you
know, drag her.
I see some of them sometimes.
These kids that are just drugaround department stores or
malls and everything, theirSaturdays are drug around the
mall and they're miserable.

(24:48):
No, no, no, but if you put a lotof time outside, right.

SPEAKER_02 (24:52):
But if you have a shopping addiction or you know,
those kind of things when it'ssacrificing other people for
what you need and what you want.

SPEAKER_03 (24:59):
Right.
So everybody's narcissistic.
Like I said, two differentpeople can look both
narcissistic and they both gothrough recovery, and one comes
out of recovery, and there's notthe narcissistic tendencies
because they never really werethe addiction made them, and
another may come out and stillhave the same narcissistic

(25:21):
tendencies.
Okay.
And the depending on thedegrees, like you can have
someone who maybe they picked upsome narcissistic traits because
of their family of origin anddifferent things, and they can
end up maybe working throughsome things and develop, but
some of the core narcissism,like I said, it's the hardest to

(25:44):
treat.
It's they can learn somedifferent behaviors, but the
natural place of empathy andbeing able to really put
yourself in others' shoes, it itit doesn't come instinctively.
There's no passion.
No, they can learn to parrot itto, so to speak.

(26:06):
Right.
And try to get it to understandwhat people want to hear.
Right.
But, you know, it so it justreally depends on the degrees of
that, how much that you can workon coming out of recovery.
Again, the prefrontal cortex iscritical because, you know, when
when you talk about our limbicsystem, limbic system is all

(26:28):
about our survival.
And so a narcissist is if ifthey're really limbic, you know,
and they haven't had thatprefrontal cortex development,
again, they're gonna they'regonna be fight, flight, freeze,
or fawn, you know, and they'regonna be worried about their own
survival.
So we really that's part of ourmaturing, you know.

(26:50):
That's why I say all teenagers,they're they're narcissistic,
you know.
But that doesn't mean they'regonna stay that way.

SPEAKER_02 (26:57):
Yeah, and I think that it's important to
emphasize, like, not in the waythat they're totally
manipulative and you know, thatkind of thing.
It's that, you know, I mean,they're evil.
For example, it's like right.
It's like, well, why can't youtake me to the football game?
Yeah.
And it's like, well, becauseit's in two hours and I have
plants, you know, it's thosetypes of things.
It's like they don't understandhow much it's, you know, the

(27:21):
parents have going on.
They don't understand what maybe going on with the younger
siblings.
They just kind of go through andyou know, their brain is going
through a pruning process.
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (27:31):
And it's about them.
And again, and not fullydeveloped till robot 26, you
know.

SPEAKER_02 (27:36):
And so that's when, you know, I always say, if
that's when we form like most ofour relationships, if you think
of it.

SPEAKER_03 (27:44):
Yeah.
And like and so, you know, Ialways say you're gonna have to
wait a little bit until you getthat, mom.
I I really appreciate, I reallysee what you did for the family,
or you know, dad, uh, you know,you really sacrificed a lot that
you you're not gonna see thatfrom them, usually as a

(28:05):
teenager.
They have to be, but that takesthe prefrontal cortex to be able
to look and see what differentthings took, not just this is
what I need right now.
I I need you to get me to thatfootball game.
What do you mean you can't bringme?
Right, you know, because they'rejust driven to get there, right?

SPEAKER_02 (28:24):
Yeah.
So what would kind of thedifference between or I guess I
I think of it this way.
So let's think of like differenttypes of relationships with
this.
So a young child with anarcissistic parent, what does
that type of parenting look likeversus a young child with an

(28:47):
emotionally unavailable parent?

SPEAKER_03 (28:50):
Well, a lot of times the narcissist will be the
emotionally uh unavailableparent, but like well, I think
um, like like let's say a a dadand a son, okay.
The the narcissist dad is at hiskids' game to be able to see

(29:12):
them win, do the best.
They might be the dad whoberates the kid on the way home.
You really should have caughtthat ball.
We we we need to practice.
What what was wrong?
What was wrong with you?
You weren't playing your besttoday, and um so not only
emotionally unavailable, butsometimes abusive, abusive,
yeah.

(29:32):
Verbally abusive, you know, andyou know, and and that can be
done with kids that are are veryyoung or all the way.
Or if the parent, you know, theparent who um I'm going back to
a dad, a dad who, you know,their garage, their car, they
have a prize car, they'reworking on it.
And and the child, well, dad,can I help you?

(29:55):
Um no, I really, I really, youknow, you might miss something.
I I really, you know, I've I didI've got to work on it this
today.
And well, could I try dad?
Well, if they do one thingwrong, they're they're out of
there there because the car ispart is more important and is

(30:16):
part of the ego uh for the dad,then the son being able to help
or learn.

SPEAKER_02 (30:22):
I mean, I have a lot of projects I have to work on,
and I don't always allow my kidsto help.
Like sometimes you just have toget it done though.

SPEAKER_03 (30:29):
Well, I yeah, that but that that's it it that
depends on is that like the ruleall the time or the way it is.
You know, it's like the the momwho fashions herself as Martha
Stewart, you know, and her herkitchen, her the food, uh all of
that table, the home,everything, it it's not really

(30:51):
livable.
Right.
And it's all about her, and it'sall about how she entertains and
how good her house looks.
And and so it's not about thesekids who just want to try to
live there.
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (31:05):
In a livable house.
It's not a livable house.

SPEAKER_03 (31:09):
No, because it has to be perfect.
Or I mean, I've talked to, Imean, I've worked with so many
people of varying degrees, butit's like the yard.
It was like the yard and whatthe neighbors thought, and
everybody thought of the yard.
And so even if they had likesomething special to want to go
to, no, you have to mow thegrass and it has to be to this

(31:29):
specs, and you have to, youknow, and not thinking, you
know, this is a a 12-year-oldwho just wants to go on a play
date with his friends and go tosomething special, but no, you
got to do the yard becausethat's what what what that's
what makes dad feel good abouthaving the best yard in the

(31:50):
neighborhood.

SPEAKER_02 (31:50):
Right.
So it's about them, not aboutthe kids.
It's not about them, it's aboutthem.

SPEAKER_03 (31:54):
Yeah, and it always goes back.
And then they can narcissistsare really good at coaching it.
Like, you know, what well when Iwas a kid, we had to do chores,
and I'm just teaching you how tohave a work ethic.

SPEAKER_02 (32:08):
So these people, I would assume, still try to
parent their adult children.

SPEAKER_03 (32:17):
Oh, oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (32:19):
Like they understand that adult relationship.

SPEAKER_03 (32:22):
Yeah, narcissists always knows what's the right
thing and what was the wrongthing.
And they have a very strongopinion on that, both overt or
covert.
And so, yeah, they will theywill try to, you know, we've
talked before about parent-childadult communication.
They have a very difficult timeadulting really with anybody.

(32:45):
Even in the business world, theywill tend to be, I I know
better.
Uh even if someone has a goodsuggestion, maybe in their
business or whatever, they willthey will take it, but a lot of
times they won't give the otherperson credit and they will use
it, but they'll do it from amore parental way instead of a

(33:08):
teamwork like, hey, you know,Susie just had this great idea
and I thought about it, and Ithought it was really good.
And they they don't do well atsh, you know, sharing credit.
And um they uh, you know, theyit's it's difficult for them to
take information from otherpeople.

(33:30):
That that's why a lot of timesthey say, well, well, they
should go to a counselor.
They will decide they're smarterthan the counselor, they will
know more.
They will tell the counselor,I've worked with someone not
long, because usually, and thenif the counselor starts
challenging or getting close totouching anything in their
fragile ego, they willimmediately find ways to

(33:52):
discredit leave not they they'relike your maybe one to three
time visits, and then they'reout of there.

SPEAKER_02 (34:01):
Like, what causes that?
I mean, it's deep wounds, likewe said, like it's really deep
lack of either, you know, love,affection, um, nurture, nurture,
all of these things inchildhood, or over also
overindulgence, oroverindulgence.

(34:22):
So it's like, you know, thespoiled child that gets
everything they ever asked foror something.
But but also don't get the realstuff that they don't they get
what they want, they don't getwhat they need.

SPEAKER_03 (34:38):
Yes, perfect.
Yes, okay.
There's a lot of that going on.
Oh, there's so much.

SPEAKER_02 (34:44):
And I feel like that maybe has been why it's
increased over time.
Um, I mean, as a working parent,I can relate.
It's like, you know, say youhave a really busy week and then
you go all out with your kids onthe weekend, and it's like you
pour all in and you do all thethings and all the and then like
you have really busy week, andthen you go all in, and it's

(35:05):
like, okay, but there needs tobe balance there.
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (35:08):
There needs to be more time during you have the
divorce parents as like yeah, Ican relate to that as well.
You're gonna you're gonna havethe world's greatest time here.

SPEAKER_02 (35:16):
Yeah, you're the fun house versus the disciplinary
house.

SPEAKER_03 (35:20):
Yes, instead of both kind of operating in balance,
yeah.
So then it's like, okay, I Ijust expect this, you know, and
I expect if you know I throw alittle tantrum or I mean you see
these adults throwing tantrumsat, you know, in airports
because somebody told them no.

(35:43):
Someone told them no, you know,or you know, or God forbid.

SPEAKER_02 (35:48):
Or someone didn't acknowledge their how much they
worked or how much they did, orso I'm thinking back of like,
you know, we've done the lovelanguages, life languages, all
the things.
So if your love language is likewords of affirmation, I don't

(36:12):
please I'm just thinking aboutpeople listening to this right
now thinking, oh my god, am I anarcissist?
I really like when people tellme, like I'm sitting there
thinking, like, oh my god, whathave I done to my kids?

SPEAKER_03 (36:22):
Am I most of the time, if you think, oh, maybe I
might be a narcissist, you'reusually not.
You're usually not.

SPEAKER_02 (36:30):
Yes.
Um, but it's I mean it's funnybecause it's you know, we always
self-diagnose ourselves in oneway or another.
Yeah.
So it's just thinking of that,like, you know, if you're a
words of affirmation person,like it's okay to want you know,
like there's there's adifference.
So tell us kind of thing.
Help us kind of distinguishbetween and that's like this.
This is why I think it's such agray, trendy thing, because

(36:53):
people hear things like this andthey're like, oh, that's me, or
that's my spouse, or that's myboy, you know, or that's
whoever, that's my mom.

SPEAKER_03 (37:00):
It's really easy to diagnose somebody.

SPEAKER_02 (37:04):
You know, how do you distinguish like the difference?
I guess.

SPEAKER_03 (37:10):
Well, like again, in my chair, a lot of times I can
evaluate the difference is howmuch did that damage the other
person?

SPEAKER_02 (37:22):
Right.
Like how much have yousacrificed someone else or
something else?

SPEAKER_03 (37:27):
Yeah, and how much how much damage did that really
do to this other person?
A lot of time is the degree ofnarcissism that was really
happening, especially if, youknow, as a child, teenage.
I have a lot of adults when Istart saying, you know what,
what you're telling me, itsounds like your mom or maybe

(37:48):
your dad or had a high level ofnarcissism.
They're like, really?
But everybody loved them.
You know, especially the overtnerd nurses.
They love, they're the ones theyalways, if they go out to eat,
they pay for everybody.
They always they will theyBecause it looks like grand
gesture.
Yes, and what a great guy.

(38:09):
Or she she's so sweet, she justshe just helps everybody, she
does everything for everybody,but you try to live with her.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so, um yeah, and so like Isaid, usually if you're
thinking, oh, maybe I'm anarcissist, you you're probably
not, because narcissists, if youknow, and the thing about

(38:33):
narcissists, if they'rechallenged or you know, really
uh poked in an area, they theyhave something that's called
narcissistic rage.
They will get enraged.
You know, that's why like if aperson ever starts trying to
leave a narcissisticrelationship, they are, you

(38:55):
know, scorched earth a lot oftimes.
It's like the words you talk toa divorce attorney and say, you
know, I'm I need a divorce, butI think my spouse could be a
narcissist.

SPEAKER_02 (39:08):
There's fees go through fees go up.
Well, I mean, those are the onesthat just spitefully burn you to
the ground.

SPEAKER_03 (39:15):
And they don't, and they don't care how it affects
the children.

SPEAKER_02 (39:18):
They they the ones that fight for custody, even
though they've never done it.

SPEAKER_03 (39:21):
And they right, and they don't want custody.
And I've I've had to livethrough some of those um with
people, you know, I've workedwith, and it's it's it's just so
painful.
I've I've just had somebody andactually um just last night, and
again, should have been noreason, long-term divorce, no,

(39:44):
no young children, no anything.
It Florida, you know, 50-50should have been cut and dry.
Two and a half years of hell,and and him him being the one
that wanted it, and a reallong-term marriage, but two and
a half years.

SPEAKER_02 (40:01):
So it's just another version of control.
So you essentially just want thethe control.

SPEAKER_03 (40:06):
And and and I and I had told I which is I called it
every level.

SPEAKER_02 (40:09):
Which is like insecurity.

SPEAKER_03 (40:11):
Yeah, I called it every level.
I would say, okay, now he'sgonna do that.
Oh no, he would never do that.
He did, he did it.
Okay, she had been very naive ina lot of things and was a real
pleaser, real empath, alwaysjust tried to make him happy.
Plus, she had had a verynarcissistic father, and he

(40:33):
wasn't her dad was a covert.
I mean, an overt narcissist whowas just really out there, and
he was a covert.

SPEAKER_02 (40:42):
So let's talk about that because that's a big one.
Usually, people who are empaths,yes, who are super highly
sensitive, yes, who want to helpand who want to fix, yes,
naturally gravitate towardsthese types of relationships.
Uh-huh.
Very, very because they see thered flags and they see the
tendencies, but they totally canthey can fix them.

(41:04):
Right.
Right.
It's like, why do we do this?

SPEAKER_03 (41:07):
Yeah.
Well, because of the impasse.
And in the beginning, again, thenarcissist they will do what we
call love bombing.
And love bombing is, oh my God,I could never talk to anyone
like I could talk to you.
And love bombing is gifts.

SPEAKER_02 (41:23):
I mean, and do you feel like that's true sometimes
though, too?

SPEAKER_03 (41:26):
Like, do you yes and no?
Okay.
That sometimes, yes, they justfeel that empathy coming and
they just suck it all up.

SPEAKER_02 (41:36):
Um, but sometimes they could I guess I guess what
I'm trying to ask is do youthink it's subconscious or do
you think it's conscious?
The narcissist part.

SPEAKER_03 (41:44):
Like if you I think a lot of it is is is
subconscious.
I don't think they'reconsciously doing that, but it's
feeding them.
It's feeds them.
It's like we call itnarcissistic supply.
Okay.
But all of a sudden, when youknow you're feeling like, oh,
I'm really helping this personand everything.
And I'm not saying you're anarcissist to to want to do

(42:06):
that, but then all of a sudden,when you're narcissist, or all
of a sudden you need something.
I I need this from you.
And that doesn't, that's whenthen you're needy, then you're
crazy, then you're you're needy,and what's wrong with you?
And again, some of the terms,you know, gaslighting, making
you feel crazy.
Again, when I talk to somebodyand it's just like I I I just

(42:29):
feel like I'm crazy, you know.
I know no matter what I do, itisn't right, you know, and um,
they're always upset and anddifferent things.
Those are some things thatthat's why it it's so important
for people who have had eitherhigh-level narcissistic parents
or a narcissistic spouse to beable to really get some help

(42:52):
afterwards because it does anumber on them.
It does a number on theirself-esteem, it does a number on
them being able to setboundaries, it does a number on
uh on them of of just, you know,still feeling like, well, maybe
there was something else I couldI could have done.

SPEAKER_02 (43:11):
Well, and a lot of times these people also become,
they have those tendenciesbecause that's the behavior
that's been modeled for them.
Yes.
They don't know any better.
Right.
Or they have one parent thatwasn't and one parent that was,
but if they spent more time timewith the parent that was, then
they think that this is how youtreat people.
This is what love looks like,this is what you know, this

(43:33):
looks like.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (43:34):
And that's it's it's very insidious and it's
different.
Again, like the high-level, likewe talk about narcissistic
personality disorder.
If you look it up, it will saythat it's a form of mental
illness.
But it is it's very differentthan like schizophrenia or
bipolar or you know, borderlinepersonality.

(43:58):
Um it's very high functioning, Ithink.
Yes, and so they live amongstus.
I mean, and you can have it, Imean, you can have it in every
world, business world, you know.
I I can I can watch politicalworld, definitely.
The the in the in the pulpits,you know, we have a lot of
high-level big name, you know,uh, but they're narcissists, you

(44:23):
know.
And like I said, a lot of timesyou can start, you know, I've
worked with it, studied it alot, worked with some, and had
some of my own personalexperience with it.
Um, that you know, um therethere are and and even even
narcissists when they get olderthey they even if they have life

(44:47):
crises, a lot of times you thinkthis life crisis, oh, this is
gonna get them to really reallychange or they're gonna this is
gonna be a wake-up call, not toa true defined narcissist.
Right.
It it it's not.
There's a really good book thatI recommend for people if you
think that you may have had um aparent that was a narcissist,

(45:12):
and it's called Children of theSelf-Absorbed.
And you know, it's a book.
Yes, and it's a study related tothe author again.
I don't even remember.

SPEAKER_02 (45:22):
Okay, Children of the Self-Absorbed.

SPEAKER_03 (45:24):
Yeah, you can get it on Amazon.
Okay.
And um, and it's reallyinteresting because for the
child, there are two, and I'verecommended it to a huge amount
of people, and they're like, Iget it.
But usually the child of anarcissist will go one or two
ways.
They will be the very compliant,comp so compliant.

(45:47):
People pleaser, people pleaser,everything, or they will be in
rebellion, they will be defiant,and they can go in either one of
those directions.

SPEAKER_02 (45:59):
But have a hard time in the middle, probably.

SPEAKER_03 (46:01):
I had someone that I recommended that book to, and I
didn't, I didn't, I didn't givethem, I should have given them
this warning, but they were likethey saw it and they really saw
it in their parent, you know,and things like that.
So they want to, they before wetalked about it, they
recommended it to the parent.
And so the parent reads thebook, but again, this is classic

(46:24):
narcissists, you know.
Classic narcissist is they havea conversation, no, oh my god, I
can see where I really messed upsome or anything.
No, that I read that book, andthen the conversation was all
about that's why, you know, mystepdad was a narcissist.
That's why I have so muchproblems, you know.
No ownership of their ownnarcissism, no just turned the

(46:47):
whole book into them, no, noapologies, no sorry, and no
change in behavior.

SPEAKER_02 (46:54):
That's one thing I think that just from my own
personal experience is like thesorries.
There's no sorries.
Yeah.
Never an apology becausenothing's ever their fault.

SPEAKER_03 (47:04):
Right.
There's always a reason.

SPEAKER_02 (47:05):
There's always a reason.
There's always a justification,there's always something.
And that brings me to, and youyou brought it up.
So we have to we have to talkabout it because again, it's
another term that's thrown outthere and tumbled around, and
it's so trendy.
Do you know what I'm gonna say?
What?

SPEAKER_03 (47:22):
I'm not sure.
Gaslighting.
Oh, gaslighting, yeah.
Well, yeah, that's just part ofthe vocabulary.
What?

SPEAKER_02 (47:31):
Well give me an example of a gaslighting
conversation.
Well, okay.
Say a stay-at-home mom and herhusband, you know, say she goes
shopping or she wants to go on atrip.
Or, you know, what if herhusband were to gaslight her?
Say she's like, you know, she'swith her kids all the time,

(47:52):
she's doing all the things.
Husband is provider of thefamily, because I've seen this
actually quite a bit in my lifeand my peers and things like
that.
She books herself a girl's trip.
So what is, you know, and so,you know, there's sabotage that
can come along.
There's not the ability to havefinancial freedom.

(48:13):
There's, you know, conversationsthat would make her feel like
she's doing something wrong, orwho are you going with, or what
are you gonna be there for?
Right.
You know, those types of things.

SPEAKER_03 (48:22):
And and gaslighting, gaslighting always has the
element of you're really crazy.
You didn't hear what you heard,you didn't see what you saw.
That that wasn't what I meant.
So, like in that case, it couldhave been like she tells him,

(48:45):
and at the time he he may noteven think that she's really
gonna do the trip because a lotof times she does in our
different things.
And then she says, Oh, I've I'vegot that trip planned on going.
Well, we didn't even talk aboutthat.
Well, yeah, we yeah, we did.
We did last month.
I mentioned it.
Yeah, but I don't I don't evenremember it.
And you never brought it, andyou never said for sure you're

(49:07):
going.
Okay.
So are you are you know, wedidn't have that conversation,
and she's like, I know we hadthat conversation.
No, we didn't, because I wouldhave told you no, because I have
an important, I have animportant meeting and I can't be
handling all of this right now.
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (49:22):
And I feel like that again boils down to just not
being present.

SPEAKER_03 (49:25):
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (49:26):
Just not being present.

SPEAKER_03 (49:27):
Yeah, not being present, or maybe they were
present, but they can they canjust turn it and color it.
So you start thinking, am Icrazy?
I thought I'm I I thought we hadthat conversation.
Right.
You know, or you know, it can bea conversation about um, let's
say he he goes out and buyssomething, you know, really

(49:48):
expensive and and it's she'slike, well, you know, but we
talked about that any, you know,we were gonna really, if it was
a larger expenditure orwhatever, we were gonna have a
discussion and da-da-da-da.
And then it can be, well, youknow, you you never appreciate
how hard I work, or you know,you don't ever think I deserve

(50:09):
anything because of working.

SPEAKER_02 (50:10):
Or it's my money and because I'm working.

SPEAKER_03 (50:11):
Yeah, and it's my money.
And, you know, we we never saidfor sure, you know, we just
talked about having moreconversation, but you would
think that I would think thatyou would want that for me.
And pretty soon, all of asudden, she's the bad person for
not wanting him to have it.
The conversation that they weregonna part.

(50:34):
Yes.
And so that the gaslighting liketurns it and it the deflects it
where where where the otherperson really starts questioning
their sanity, you know, in interms of what they've heard,
what they thought wascommunicated, what was really

(50:54):
going on.
I mean, and there's some I mean,there's some master, I mean, I
know, you know, narcissists, Iknow uh men who I mean into
sexual addiction, reallyunfaithful and you know and uh

(51:15):
lied and covered it up for solong and just m made the woman
feel like she was crazy.
She was crazy.
And all along she was feelinglike there was somebody else.
She was feeling like there wereother things.

SPEAKER_02 (51:30):
No, I wouldn't.

SPEAKER_03 (51:31):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (51:31):
I totally know.

SPEAKER_03 (51:32):
Yeah.
But but but they gaslight them.
No, I'm I mean, you know, I'mbusy and you know, you know, I
I've I've got to work late.

SPEAKER_02 (51:41):
And I just actually read a fiction, I've been
reading fiction books.
Just take myself away and I reada fiction book and I was like, I
can't even finish this.
This guy pisses me off.
Like I it was like called Don'tLet Me, Don't Let Him In my Lisa
Jewel.
And I'm like, I can't finishthis.
Okay.
I was totally he had like fourdifferent lives and he was
scamming all of these women andoh my god, yes.

SPEAKER_03 (51:59):
That would be malegna.
Oh, he was hardcore, it wascrazy.
Melingna.
I don't know if you heard, I Imean, it was the most one of the
horror stories.
This was not too long ago whereit all came out.
I don't know if you heard it, itwas in France, and this guy, he
had an older wife, she was inher 60s, and he was drugging her

(52:20):
at night and putting online forthese men, other men, to come
over and pay to have sex withhis wife.
Oh my god.
She's unconscious, and I'mtrying to remember her name, and
and then videotaping it and thenselling it online.

(52:41):
And she it finally gotuncovered.
I mean, and she was going to thedoctor for different like
venereal stuff, everything, andhe's like, Oh no, you're crazy,
you know.
She finally, she finally tookhim to when it all came out, she
finally took him to court.

SPEAKER_02 (53:01):
That is so traumatic.

SPEAKER_03 (53:03):
The most trauma, I mean, there were like I think 70
guys that they had um recorded.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And who knows what else?
Malignant narcissists.
Can you imagine to do doing thatto your wife who's in her 60s?
In her sixties?
She was in her sixties.

(53:24):
Oh, I mean, not that I mean, buthe was he was uh like people
like Was he in her sixties?
Yeah, she was shocked, her thethe children were shocked, the
neighborhood was shocked becausehe was just such a good guy.
But he was he was a malignantfreak show and a malignant
narcissist.

(53:45):
Yeah, it it was in France.
I I don't remember the lady'sname offhand now, but I I I I
had to, you know, I dealt doveinto a little bit and heard some
interviews where she did, butshe decided she was gonna get on
this fan the the stand and shewas gonna face him and these

(54:06):
other men.
Again, divorced him and yeah,well, good for her, but that's
still so traumatic.
Yeah, so traumatic, so justbroken violating.

SPEAKER_02 (54:14):
I mean, that is the ultimate the person that you're
supposed to trust the most withyour I mean, how about those
vows?

SPEAKER_03 (54:20):
Yeah, and that's honor and cherish, yeah.
And that's that's how far amaligne, you know, malignant
narcissists.

SPEAKER_02 (54:27):
Because they are just so absolutely brutal.

SPEAKER_03 (54:29):
Yeah, yeah.
And then try to, you know, spinit.

SPEAKER_02 (54:35):
Right, exactly.
So what you know, what are somegreat resources?
Because there's a like you said,there's a lot of this out there,
and we we did use males as a lotof examples, but there are a lot
of females.
There are a lot of, you know, Iwhat do you what do you
recommend?
Like, where do people start?
Because some of theserelationships can be very

(54:56):
dangerous.

SPEAKER_03 (54:57):
They can be dangerous, they're toxic.
And I I think what I mean,YouTube has a lot of really good
stuff on it.
So on malignant, on overt, oncovert, and but I would just
start with like a simple whatwhat does basic narcissism look

(55:17):
like?
What are the basics ofnarcissism?
And um, you know, and and don'tbe quick just to label you know,
just to totally label the worldwe live in though.
We're quick to label everything,yeah, and or to use an excuse,
excuse, you know, yeah, I'm theworst thing, I'll need a
narcissist.
Yeah, well, yeah, it it's notthat simple.

(55:40):
And and and again, I do knowrelationships that have where
there has been evolution in it.
Would I say that they liketotally end up the most
empathetic person?
No.
But that they can work out andthey can have conversations, but

(56:02):
there's a s there has to be acertain amount of an acceptance
that I'm I'm not really good atthat.
Right.
And help me, you know, and areworking together that, you know,
you can, you know, and and a lotof times for the family's sake,
for each other, you know, sake,there can be, you know, work

(56:23):
done to make it um, you know,livable.
Right.
But you also have to realize inthat there are, you know, you
can't, like I said, you can'tsqueeze a rock and get lemonade.
You know, there's some thingsyou just might not get, but what
what are you able to receive inthe relationship and what's the

(56:46):
best overall decision?
Right.
I'm not now I've worked withsome people where you know the
person is so narcissistic, it'slike run while you can.
Right.
You know, because a lot of timesto a they call it narcissist
discard.
They can discard people like adirty tissue.

(57:06):
I'm talking 40 years ofmarriage, 20.
What but when their time whenwhen you're no longer serving
their purpose and something elseor someone else will, they will,
they can discard you.
And but sometimes a narcissistwill start rejecting, but then

(57:27):
they haven't found a real othergood place of narcissistic
supply, or maybe their kids arestill giving them narcissistic
supply, and then they will kindof throw out crumbs of doing
better, and then the person,like, oh, he's really changing.
But it's really crumbs, and theyhaven't tested it.

SPEAKER_02 (57:48):
Well, and they haven't gotten to the root of
because you know, like we wereferred to addiction, like,
well, you might not be addictedto that thing anymore, but it's
on to the next.
Yeah, or it's like you know,they choose healthier things to
fuel it.
Yes.
So it looks different, and itmight feel different.

SPEAKER_03 (58:08):
I'm not snorting coke anymore, but I'm I'm on my
phone all the time.
Right.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (58:13):
Yeah.
Or I'm eating sugar all thetime.
Right.
Or I'm, you know, whatever.
Like, yeah.
So yeah, I just think thatbecause I've, you know, this is
one that just really it's scarybecause, like you said, it can
be so brutal to divorce, it canbe so brutal for children, it

(58:34):
can be, you know, it can be verylife damaging.
So it absolutely is.
So any of you who feel like youmight be experiencing this or
have experienced this, a graceand compassion, show yourself
all the love and strength.
But make sure you have a really,really good support system and a
really good kind of plan andreally navigate through your own

(58:58):
healing before you try to make atransition.
Because I feel like that couldbe yeah, if you're too
vulnerable at the time, it canit can be.

SPEAKER_03 (59:07):
I mean, you could be left with nothing.
Yeah, and destructive, even inthe divorce process and things.

SPEAKER_02 (59:12):
And um because they're the ones that'll keep on
going just to go, just to bewinning.

SPEAKER_03 (59:16):
And a lot, and a lot of times, especially the more
grandiose, um, the um over a lotof times it might be by that
time.

SPEAKER_02 (59:23):
Fighting over $20,000, but we've yeah, we've
uh have quadrupled that inactual.

SPEAKER_03 (59:28):
I I know a couple like over over a million dollars
and and attorneys and end upwith the very settlement that
she basically had said in thefirst place, I think this would
be fair.
She was a point of winning, justso you know, they have to win,
they have to win every argument,they have to win uh every every

(59:50):
battle, they have to win.

SPEAKER_02 (59:52):
They have to do the last word, they have to have the
last say, they have to so likeanytime you find yourself in
conversation, it's better.
Or to just leave it because it'sotherwise it's just gonna be a
waste of energy.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:03):
Yeah, and and it it's just gonna all come come
back at you because they have towin.
Like I said, the one that needsto be a good thing.
He was right getting close tobeing absolutely forced.
Yeah.
That he was either gonna be druginto court or he had to sign
this divorce decree.
And I mean, called her up andthe person who hadn't talked to

(01:00:27):
her besides emails in almost twoyears.
Oh wow.
Um called her up and justscreamed her.
And I told I I said he he is heis in narcissistic rage right
now because he's being forced todo something, and it looks like
you're winning.
And he's looked at all of thisas all his.

(01:00:49):
Even though you've laid downyour life, as he's the one who
wanted you to quit quit a goodcareer that you had in the
beginning and be that stay athome wife, just take care of
him, stay, take care of thekids, do all of that.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:04):
But that's so they knew they were in their small
little box.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:07):
Yes, right.
Yeah.

unknown (01:01:09):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:09):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:10):
Oh my gosh, we could go on and on and on.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:12):
We could.
That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:12):
There's so many entire I I can think of like
five people in my life that it'slike, but they're all so very
different.
And it all showed up verydifferently for everyone.
Yeah.
The relationships are alldifferent, they're not like that
with each person.
Yes.
So it's just, it's it's a reallyinteresting topic.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:30):
And I feel like we can't scratch the circuit.
I know.
And it really um, you know, it'sreally infiltrated our society
to such a great degree.
And um, and like like you saidbefore, it can be, like I said,
very damaging.
And I I know part of the healingprocess I've you know learned
over the years is if I can helpthem to see the puzzle piece,

(01:01:56):
like, no, you just weren'thaving a divorce, you were
discarded by a narcissist, it'sa whole different ball.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:04):
It's a whole different boggle.
It's a whole different level ofhealing, it's a whole different
experience.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:09):
Or or, you know, and and the one thing I I what I
love to do, especially for youngwomen, um, is I say I I I'm I
give them narcissist rerepellent.
Okay, because I help explain,especially the the um the covert

(01:02:30):
or mean the overt more of thelove bombing, you know, if he
comes on too fast, too quick,you know, every goes overboard
and everything, you know, uh,just look up red flag.
Look look for these red flags,you know.
If um if you, you know, have aconversation about something and

(01:02:56):
you know, he if you just try tochallenge a little bit and say,
well, I don't really agree withthat.
I don't think that what see theresponse, you know.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:05):
Right.
And I think that's importantbecause yes, there are
relationships where people willgo above and beyond and want to
treat you and take you placesand do things, but you have to
have this level of discernment,I think, especially in those new
phases where you're learning andexploring and getting to know.
So, like I think the big keytakeaways in any relationship to
think about, you know, whetheror not you have a voice, whether

(01:03:29):
or not you're heard.
You know, it's one thing to havea voice, it's another thing to
be truly heard.
Like, is that person hearingyour perspective?
And are they responding in a wayto nurture that perspective?

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:40):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:40):
You know, is it all is it always about them, or are
they willing to budge andcompromise and be open, you
know?
And if is, you know, I feel likefinances is a whole big thing
that's really sticky.
I mean, in a lot of differentrelationships.
Um, because I thinkgenerationally we all have
financial trauma in some way,shape, or form.

(01:04:01):
You know, just generationallygoes back to the Great
Depression.
Everyone experienced it in someway, you know.
So I think that we all havesomething there.
So just making sure that thosetypes of things are fair and
open and transparent and anddon't rush.

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:17):
Don't rush.
Because a lot of things youdon't see right away, you don't
see right away, and you have toexperience life with people.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:25):
It's like, yeah, when everything's great, that's
a perfect time to get married.
No, wait till shit gets messy.
See if you can clean up the messtogether, then get married.
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:36):
Or if you know, if you're separated from someone
and they're like they've startedlike kind of re-loving you or
just oh, over things, don't justgo see how long, see if you you
kind of put some brakes on that.
Because if they're a narcissist,they'll turn on you in a
heartbeat.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:56):
Yeah, you know, I didn't want you anyway.
You're right, right.

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:59):
Or, you know, you probably got you know, someone
else and blah, blah, blah.
You know, if they turn on youthat quick, it's not genuine.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:08):
Yeah, the accusatory jealousy stuff is really
prominent with the narcissist,right?
Like the jealousy typepersonality.

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:17):
Oh, yeah, because they they need it all.
They want it all.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:22):
Oh my gosh, we could go on and on and on.
If there's one thing or a couplethings you want people to take
away from today's conversationor to take it forward, any other
books, any other resources,recommendations, what would that
be?

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:36):
I think, like I said, the one thing is,
especially for those who've hadparents, that maybe this has
sparked maybe my mom was anarcissist or maybe my dad was.
Like online, they really havesome good differentiating, like,
you know, uh the daughter of anarcissistic mother.

(01:05:59):
How does that affect and wheredid that affect you?
And what has it caused in yourlife?
So you can be able to get well.
You can get it.
Perfectionism paradigm.
Yeah.
Or, you know, or a narcissisticdad.
Or if you are, you know, a manor a woman in a relationship set

(01:06:20):
that's, you know, you think hassome of those narcissistic
tendencies, do some study, lookat it, you know, and it like I
said, especially if you're notmarried, you have to really, you
know, sometimes you're married,you have kids, you have a lot at
stake and and a lot of differentthings.
May not be as easy, but youknow, especially, you know, if

(01:06:42):
I'm talking with someone andthey're in a real recent
relationship and all the flagsare, you know, they check all
the boxes.
I always say, you know, if youcan check the box and say, well,
I think it might be a rosebecause, oh, it has petals and
it has thorns and it has thesekind of, you know, well, it's
probably a rose.

(01:07:02):
And if you check all the boxesfor someone you're seeing or of
narcissism, you know, if if ithasn't run.
I hate to say it.
Get out, get out, run.
And but do it, I always saylike, do it like backing out of
a room very carefully.

(01:07:23):
Because you don't want to hitthe narcissistic rage and and
what they can what they can doto people now on social media or
anything like that.
You want to back out gracefully,take ownership.
Yeah, I agree.
This isn't working.
I really need to do some work onmyself, and I'm gonna I'm I'm

(01:07:43):
gonna work on that now and youknow, and just make it about
you.
Back out back out gracefully,you know, and then other ways to
say, okay, how can I be moreresilient if I'm I'm making a
choice in this relationship, butdo it, do it realistically, you

(01:08:03):
know, and say, okay, but I havea need for more connection here.
Um, you know, again, I don'trecommend going out and having
an affair, but look to yourfriends, look to other places
where where you can find um moreof that emotional support that
you need.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:20):
Oh, actually, we just had an event yesterday.
Resilient retreat is a good um,I feel like I plug it all the
time.
Yeah, but it really is.
Some of the more of um anorganization, and we provide
free programming for people thathave survived trauma, abuse,
helping professions, firstresponders, all the things.
But, you know, we deal with alot of and we have a lot of

(01:08:44):
participants that do ourprograms that have had similar
relationships, whether it wasparental or you know, um,
romantic and um free programs.
You can call, you can screen in,you can see online, they're
virtual.
That's a great resource too.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:59):
And I want to give you a couple classics related to
physical abuse with anarcissist.
Oh, god.
So physical abuse with anarcissist.
I've actually heard this before.
Is I can't help it if you'reblack and blue, easy.
Oh jeez.
Another another classic is theywon't actually hit you, but they

(01:09:20):
will let a wall hit you.
Like push you into the wall,push into the wall, because they
don't they're they're too good aguy to hit you, but they'll
throw you out of a car.
Yeah, you know, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:34):
And they can be very physical, like backhanded,
physical.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:38):
Yes, yeah.
Or, you know, or it may startoff at just like wall punching
and big person punching a walland yeah, because it really it's
saying if you don't shut up,yeah, that you're this is what I
can do to you.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:54):
Ew, that's like the empty threat kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:56):
Yes, yeah, but it's not empty, and it will it will
move forward.
But a lot of times they won'thit you directly because then
they would be the bad person.
Okay, you know, but they willthey will physically do a number
of you.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:13):
Well, we're gonna leave with that.
Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:17):
It's a warning.
It's a warning.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:20):
Oh my god.
But you know, the great thing isthere are so many resources out
there now.
Um, and if you do you feel likeyou need um or have experienced
these types of relationships inyour life, I think it's really
important to seek the help thatyou need to be very gentle and
strategic and you know, and justuse discernment and don't blame

(01:10:46):
yourself, you're not crazy.
Yeah, you know, you can takeyour power back in an empowering
way, meaning, you know, you canyou can own that you're worthy
of a better life.
And I think that that is what Iwould like to put out in the
universe with all of this.
You know, if you've experiencedit doesn't matter where the

(01:11:08):
relationship came from in yourlife, you are absolutely worthy
of a better life.
You're worthy of being treatedwell.
You never should be told thatyou're crazy.
You know, you're you deserve tobe seen, to be heard, to be
validated, to be loved, and tobe nurtured.
And um, thank you, Dr.
Kathy, for being here today.

(01:11:29):
Um, we could go on and on andon, but that's gonna be a wrap
for today.
Thank you.