November 16, 2023 • 32 mins
Ever felt curious about the behind-the-scenes of animal research and the fascinating technologies being leveraged? Well, strap in as we embark on an enlightening journey, unveiling the intriguing world of animal research and its advancements through the lens of CRISPR-Cas9. We're discussing how a team at the University of Basel is revolutionizing gene-editing to minimize the use of mice in muscle disease studies.
Our discussion doesn't stop at gene editing! We dive into the nitty-gritty of how Harvard Medical School researchers are utilizing cells to control excessive muscle inflammation. We'll unpack how this could potentially assist elderly individuals in maintaining endurance and muscle tone for longer. We spice it up a notch with a captivating study showcasing how rats are trained to visualize routes and tasks in a virtual reality environment. We're not just discussing the science, we're exploring its fascinating implications on animal behavior and focus.
We conclude on a thrilling note, calling out to our listeners for exciting future guest suggestions and more engaging content. Keep your ears open for news about giveaways and bonus content.
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Resources & Links:
- Win-win in muscle research: Faster results and fewer laboratory animals thanks to new method | ScienceDaily
- Immune Cells Control Mouse Muscle Inflammation During Exercise | American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS)
- Can rats 'imagine'? Rodents show signs of imagination while playing VR games | Live Science
- Want the secret to less painful belly flops? These researchers have the answer | ScienceDaily
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
This podcast is supported by Americans for
Medical Progress and was foundedand created through the Michael
D Hare Fellowship, awardedannually to support projects
that inform and educate thepublic about the critical role
of animal research in furtheringmedical progress.
The Fellowship honors the lateDr Michael Hare, a renowned
board-certified laboratoryanimal veterinarian who
dedicated his career toscientific and medical
(00:25):
advancements and who was deeplycommitted to animal welfare and
advocacy.
Hey, everyone, welcome into theNovember edition of the Labrat
Chat NewsVide episodes.
Thanks for joining us today.
And look at this we are back toback months now doing NewsVide
episodes.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
We did.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
September or we did.
No, we didn't do September, wedid October and now November.
So hopefully we'll be back ontrack doing this every month,
like we had set up last episodelast month, and keep bringing
you these exciting stories everysingle month about things going
on in the field of animalresearch and just random animal
stories.
Danielle has two stories.
(01:04):
I have two stories, Turns outwe talked before the episode.
We're actually like an hourinto this recording.
We're just now getting toactually starting to record.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Yeah, we goofed off quite a bit.
And I will say so.
I read my articles before westarted this and I just realized
that I already forgoteverything that I read, so I'm
reading them again now, whileyou give the intro.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
So you want me to.
How long should I make theintro?
Speaker 2 (01:23):
You need like five, ten minutes.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
So my two episodes and I mean usually we'll do some
like life update stuff I feellike that much really happened
in the last 30 days.
I've just been working and it'sall boring and stuff nobody
wants to hear about.
So, I don't have anything fun.
My wife and kids are having fun, and Alaina going to the zoo
and aquarium while I'm stuckhere.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
You're a business owner now.
Your life is tied to.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Tied to work.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Yeah, except doing this podcast.
I feel like this podcast iskind of like a.
I think it's more of like ahobby than anything else.
I just enjoy it.
Hopefully it comes out,hopefully it shows when we do
this we're not here like noone's forcing us to do these,
we're just doing it every month,just hopefully brings some
people some enjoyment and someand hopefully a little bit of
(02:13):
like learning material,Something low ed, educating Edgy
Is that?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
the right word Educational.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
There you go.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
All right.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Sometimes we go home school and sometimes I really
worry what our kids are learning.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Well, yeah, and last month we did the fun little
giveaway on Instagram.
We got a lot of entries.
It was super fun Picked thewinner, shipped off the prize.
I should probably check thetracking number.
I imagine that will be arriving.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Hopefully it already arrived this week, but yeah,
I'll maybe throw some more ofthose in if I find one little.
Yeah, I didn't win.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
You didn't win an entrance, I was real
disappointed.
You can't win if you don't play.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
That's true.
That's true, I think my son.
Right before I startedrecording.
My dogs were barking outsideand now she's like standing
right next to me going nuts.
I think she can hear youthrough the headphones.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
And it's like strange or dangerous in here.
For sure, she doesn't know whatto do.
She won't leave me alone.
So there's like weird dog noisesnext to me.
Her tail keeps hitting thetable.
I apologize, but All right, itis what it is.
So my two articles are I haveone about muscle research and
(03:25):
how we can get faster resultswith fewer laboratory animals,
so kind of focusing on the threeRs for that article, which is
always always good to do.
And then I have another oneabout kind of rats imagine and
rats get to play.
Vr video games.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
So I have that same article, but I think it'll be
cool because it'll finally bethat we've both read the article
and we can actually have aconversation about it.
But my other article is alsomuscle related, but not the same
one as you.
It's about immune cells helpingcontrol muscle inflammation
during exercise.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
So we'll save our, our dual one for last.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah, like I said, we both read it, but clearly you
are reading it while I'm talkingabout this first story.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Well, I've read it twice.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
By the time we finished, okay, and then I do
have just a completely bonkersresearch study just to briefly
mention at the end.
Just it just blows my mind thattaxpayer dollars go towards
these sorts of things.
All right, I'll start off.
So my story about muscleresearch just talks about
(04:37):
specifically how they use mice.
So mice are a great modelorganism for studying muscle
diseases and these researchersat the university Basel Basel is
B-A-S-E-L.
Doesn't say where that is.
Doesn't sound like it's in theUnited States, if it is.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Sorry, sorry but don't.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
I say that Basel, there must be basel, huh or
basel, but I don't know.
No help here.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
No, I got nothing.
Okay, if I knew where it wasfrom, I could turn on my accents
and say oh, it is basel, but Idon't know if that's French.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
So Right, and it might be American.
And then?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Then it's basel.
No, I'm just kidding.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
That's Louisiana.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
All right, except you said it way too fast, it's slow
but down oh basel.
All right.
So, like I said, researchersuse the mouse as a model to
study structure and function ofmainly skeletal muscle, and so
they can study differentneuromuscular diseases, aging
processes as we age, you know,we lose a good amount of muscle
(05:46):
mass, and so these researchersat the University of Basel have
decided to find a way to reducethe number of mice, because it
takes a long time.
As you know, when you're doingany like gene function studies
with mice, you know you have tolike create like generations of
(06:06):
mice to knock out those genes.
Right, we've all, if you'vebeen in the lab over and worked
with mice or know anything aboutit.
It's just kind of like aprocess for you're knocking in
or knocking out different genesthrough generations of mice, so
to get what you want.
But now these researchers, withthe use of the CRISPR-Cas9
(06:27):
method, they use a virus tointroduce the so-called like the
Cas9 protein, which can thenget into the organism and then
into the nucleus, and then itcan actually change the DNA
where, specifically where theywant it to, and that changes
that DNA will then allow thegene function to be altered
(06:51):
within the cell and thenultimately within the mouse, so
they can change the genefunction in a living animal,
instead of having to breed moreand change them through
generation of mice.
And so the researchers the firstthing they had to do was breed
the mice with that Cas9 proteinthat's on the muscle fibers, but
(07:12):
only on the muscle fibers,because we don't they were, we,
I was not involved.
They didn't want to change anyother cells on the body,
obviously.
So they did that.
They bred it, they got the Cas9protein right there on the
muscle fiber and then they couldinsert their the virus, along
(07:33):
with whatever gene modificationsthey wanted to make, and it
would go straight to those Cas9spots on the muscle, get into
the cells, change the geneticmakeup of that cell, and now
those animals can all be used tostudy different gene
modifications without having tobe bred over years and years.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
And then they can study, does it say, if you then
bred those mice, would theiroffspring have the same genetics
?
Speaker 1 (08:03):
It doesn't say I know that's so.
That's one of the fears aboutthe CRISPR system and altering
genes is that if you alter themand one like if you alter them
and the one mouse, that nowtheir offspring are going to be
affected to it.
Maybe you don't want it to youbecause you're doing it for a
research or testing purposesthat has a negative consequence,
and so I know that's one oflike the fears about the CRISPR
(08:25):
Cas9 system.
It's like generational changesthat you can't maybe get back.
So it doesn't say and I'm surethere's more research out there
on that and I'm sure they'vethey they probably know the
answer, but it doesn'tnecessarily say if those changes
are.
I think they can keep breedingthe Cas9 mice so they can make
(08:49):
the changes when they want towith new mice.
I don't know if they can letthose changes affect their
offspring or if they're evenbreeding them after, so but then
they can just make thosechanges to the genes and they
can study those muscle fibersand neuromuscular diseases and
they don't need a large numberof mice to do it.
So I mean that's kind of cool.
(09:09):
They can reduce, they can stillget what they need accomplished
.
Generations of breeding and yeah, and then we can get data
faster and everything too.
We're not waiting for a bunchof changes to happen.
So yeah, all right, but yeah,so that's it for that one.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Well, I'll piggyback on that with my muscle one.
So a research group.
And again, where are they from?
I don't know?
Harvard, Harvard Medical School.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
See, I read this like an hour ago and I forgot that
is in the US.
That is, yes, I mean it's.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Harvard no.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Yeah, yeah, do your Boston accent for that one, huh.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Harvard, it's true, kind of so the group in up in
Harvard.
They did a research projectinvolving mice and exercise to
try to figure out why exercisingyou know people go to the gym.
They want to either get rippedor get lean or you know you're
working your muscles at the gymwhy do you not have crazy damage
(10:04):
to your muscles andinflammation?
And you know, swollen knees andpain?
Obviously you have some musclepain because you've broken down
the muscle fibers, but why is itnot such severe muscle damage?
So they found out that we havethe cell group called regulatory
T cells which prevent excessivemuscle inflammation during and
(10:25):
after physical activity bysuppressing and I'm reading this
so it sounds a little roboticby suppressing the production of
a pro-inflammatory messengerprotein or cytokine called IFNY,
and I don't know if I'msupposed to call that IFNY or
IFNI.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
I like the IFNY.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Because IFNY is a little more fun.
So I think I'm going to say itfor this article.
So by having the T cell, theregulatory T cells, activate, it
suppresses the IFNY cytokinecells.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Is it a Y or is it like the gamma, like that?
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Oh, hmm.
Well, it looks like maybe it isthe gamma.
It looks like a lowercase Y,but now that I'm questioning
that, I don't know how to saythat.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
then it's like if you're on something gamma.
I think that's what IFN is.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Why is Now IFN question mark oh it's the
Insurance Federation of New York.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Gotcha, that's what it is.
Yeah, interfere on gamma,that's IFNY.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Okay, all right Cool.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
I mean, stick with it me, you know.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
No, because I literally had to zoom my
eyeballs in on this website andI guess it is a little gamma
sign.
See, that's why we have a vetas our co-host on this show.
You can pronounce things anddetermine things much quicker
than I can.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Not always.
Not usually.
Not usually.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Well, I don't know that one either.
But also it shows that mice thatdon't have the regulatory T
cells so they can either turnthem off Again it's probably a
knock-in or a knock-outsituation.
They create more of IFNY duringthe exercise and having those
higher cytokine levels reducesthe animal's ability to gain
physical endurance.
They did this with short-termand long-term experiments.
(12:04):
The short-term they weretesting levels, I think day one,
three and seven, and then thelong-term ones, again, this
involved treadmills for theshort-term, I think long-term,
it said that the mice had accessto a hamster wheel, mouse wheel
, whatever you want to call it,at all times and they were
tested at two, three or fourweeks.
It's kind of a long-term studybecause maybe if we can figure
(12:27):
out if the T regulatory T cellsget turned off with aging and
you have age-related tissuedamage, maybe different
therapies can target it to helpelderly people don't stay ripped
at the gym, their muscle justdeflates what do you call it
(12:48):
when your muscle is justdeteriorating.
They're looking at maybe thelong-term of being able to help
injuries or elderly people tomaintain endurance and muscle
tone longer, if maybesomething's getting turned off
in their system and a differenttherapy could turn it back on.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
I think you lose and don't quote me I think by the
time you're 65, 75, or just asyou age in general, I think you
end up losing like 35% or so ofyour muscle mass.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Unless you're actively trying to work out.
Yeah, it doesn't come back.
They're looking at.
Well, maybe if you canmanipulate the regulatory T
cells, maybe you can improve.
They call it geriatric patients, it just sounds so cruel
improve their health withoutthat inflammatory repercussion.
So I don't know.
(13:42):
Very interesting, I like tothink.
A little mice just titilling iton a little treadmill.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Living their best life.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Just hitting the bench press there.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
That would be.
I mean, it is important tofigure out how to maintain some
muscle mass as you age, Justbecause so many injuries are
involved around and the elderlyjust as far as muscle mass goes,
and not having strength orstuff in the upper curb and
falling and they're likedevastating injuries.
So you know what to maintain.
(14:14):
That would be Awesome, andworking out every day and
hitting the gym isn't alwaysnecessarily feasible when you
get older.
Yeah, that Outlive book that Italked about last time.
He talks a lot about ways tomaintain muscle mass and the
goal of that book is to try toyou know how to increase your
longevity and health span.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Well, I know you're obsessed with living forever, so
it goes into a lot of that.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
I know when you brought it up, this time I don't
want to live, you know, butjust making sure you have like
that, that good like health span, along with lifespan they
actually like can run around andyour older age and play with
grandkids and stuff.
So anyways, that's not good onthat road.
No, but read the book, thebook's pretty.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
This is not a paid endorsement.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Sorry, it is not at all.
He would be a great guest, buthe's never coming on our show.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Should we All right?
So our next article is the sameone.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
VR time.
Yeah, yeah, you want me tostart, it All right.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Let's do it.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
And you just jump in.
Obviously, humans have animagination, quite an extensive
imagination.
Especially if you have kids,the imaginations are real.
Jeff, that stain that I showedyou no, this is the side note,
or, if you're Daniel, that stainthat I showed you on the
ceiling.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Or if you're Daniel, I my son saw it and I was like
you know, how could that havegotten up there?
And he's like maybe there was afrog that came in the house and
he had just finished eatingFrench fries, so he was greasy
and he jumped really high and hehit the ceiling and he left a
little grease mark on theceiling.
And I'm like buddy, that is thebest theory of why there's a
strange greasy mark on myceiling and we have 10, we have
(15:52):
10 foot ceilings downstairs, soit's not like like it's up there
, like I don't know how I got upthere, but I just will forever
imagine a frog having justtotally gone bananas on a French
fry container.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Right, yeah that, that, that frog.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Hit the gym getting his endurance up, eating those
French fries though, whicharen't really part of the gym
lifestyle.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
but I mean workout hard.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
You know the word yourself a little bit.
So greasy frog left a mark onmy ceiling.
Maybe it's probably the frog'scheek day.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
That's what it was.
Yes, he ate the fries and thenhe jumped up there and well, I'm
glad he's, I'm glad he's stillthere.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
I just loved his imagination because he was
really.
It was like a thoughtful like.
This is the theory that I'mgoing to tell my parents of how
that mark got up there.
But it also begs the questionof like did he throw something
up there and he was trying tocover his tracks?
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
It was the perfect outline of a mouse, so they only
think he could have thrown us amouse.
Because you have a little mousetoy Many mouse shaped toys in
our house because I just lovemice.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Oh, that's true, but none of, none of my mice, none
of my little mice are greasy, soI don't know how that got up on
the ceiling.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Well, all the grease hit the ceiling and came out of
the mouse.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Yeah, it absorbed it and cleaned the mouse off, and
then he put it back.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Yeah, I mean, you have quite the imagination as
well.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
It was where I was getting it going yeah, right
right, all your little mouse, mylittle demented life that I
live, yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Stories.
I don't use Instagram a wholelot, but whenever I do, whenever
I open it up, it's your mousepictures.
Yeah, it's fun Every time.
So anyways, humans obviouslyhave a vast imagination and it's
.
I mean, I guess we've kind ofpondered whether or not animals
have that same type ofimagination and then we've never
(17:31):
really thought that, like miceor rats have it.
But the new study out of HowardHughes Medical Institute, I had
to look up what HHMI was.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Well yes, the story says it right, so.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
I'm on live science, so shout out to live science and
science dailycom.
So one of the one of the tasks,like if you're driving, you're
walking, you kind of you canimagine the route without
thinking about it.
You're kind of a planning outyour route and your head on how
you're going to get somewhere.
Yeah, I don't think you justhave passion for getting your
car unless you do it over andover and over to go, but or you
(18:16):
just follow GPS, but it's aroutine commute to work or a
trip to an unfamiliar location.
You're using some sort ofimagination, and so they tried
to kind of recreate this andmice.
And so all this imagination,rats, rats.
You're right.
Yeah, What'd I say?
I said mice.
Well, we were talking aboutmice.
So imaginations controlled bythe hippocampus which, as we
(18:39):
know, it's involved in learningand memory, and I guess
previously they've shown peoplewith damaged hemp, hemp, a camp.
This is our hemp hippocampi, Idon't know.
They struggled to like imaginethings.
They have problems likefiguring out where they're going
or or just imagining in general, and so they took on.
(19:01):
This article was published inscience, by the way, just on
November 2nd.
So we're this is very new, whichis great.
I know Super current, and sothey basically use virtual
reality and a brain machine toshow that rats can indeed
illustrate that they haveimagination.
I know you want to talk alittle bit about it.
(19:22):
I was trying to kind of pictureit as I was reading they put
them on like a sphere treadmillthing.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
So I'm picturing them like running on top of a ball
and they're in a 360 virtualreality thing and they can train
the rat to kind of run on thisball and run to a specific
location in this virtual realityspot and then there's a reward
there and then they'll take awaythe images, like, so the rat
isn't seeing it.
(19:48):
No, I already missed, missed apart.
First they had something hookedup to his brain, that brain
machine interface.
So they're kind of recordingwhat the hippocampus is.
Again, I don't know how, likemaybe it's like Morse code, like
beep, beep, beep, beep, beep,but they're getting this, this
recording of what the brain is,I don't know, thinking and
converting it into what themachine, I don't again.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Yeah, I think they had them.
They had them like run towardsthe firstly, like trained them
they can go towards the goalpostand get a treat, and then they
set up the game and the VRsystem where they were kind of
fixed on a spot.
And they had their brain hookedup and their brain, they could
track it.
(20:31):
There's something on the screenthat they could basically like
imagine getting to that goalpostand when their brain got there
they would get a treat.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
And they have like this video.
That probably would have helpedme understand this a little
better.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Okay, yeah, it helped me, so they.
But basically it's I mean it'ssome complex like just
technology and brain studies.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
I did read that it took nine years to get there and
I can't even imagine thescience that went into this.
It's totally cool.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Yeah, and so they have like a, they have a
goalpost, if you will, and theyhave like, which is where the
rats need to get to get thetreat.
And they can like see the rat,although they're not actually
getting there.
They can like see the ratthrough the hippocampus,
planning its route on how it'sgoing to get there, and then
when it gets there and the brainit's basically mapped out the
route to get there and it hitsit via imagination.
(21:19):
They get a treat and thenthey'll move the goalpost to
different spots and you can likesee this little target which is
basically tracking the ratsimagination, if you will, and
when, whenever that dot hits thegoalpost, it gets the treat.
And then they even did it forlike an for objects.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yeah, they had like a jumper task and a Jedi task
Moving an object into thegoalpost.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Yeah yeah, the Jedi task was to use the force, if
you will, to move a box towardthe goal post and whenever they
can use, like harness, theirmental map to think about
navigating the object throughthe environment without actually
moving, and they get the objectto the goal.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
And it also talked about the rat's attention span
to that, because we don't knowwhat an animal's attention span
is, but they were, you know,thinking of things that weren't
there for many seconds.
And again, we have no idea whatthe correct attention span of a
rat should be, but it isshowing that they kind of stay
(22:18):
on the same thought for longerthan just a millisecond, you
know.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yeah, I mean it's kind of.
I mean, I'm not reading thescience article.
I'm sure the science articlegoes into all these details.
I do want all the numbers andstatistics and all that stuff to
go with it.
You could go there to get that,yeah, but just in general, it
just shows that they do havethis like cognitive ability to
imagine and play in.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
I think this just feeds into my brain of like I
just picture these little ratsgoing home in the wild and their
little burrows and being likeoh, what's for dinner?
I really wish I could find moreacorns.
Like.
I just feel like it adds to thecuteness of like what's for
dinner tonight.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Right, and then they're playing on how to like
get out there and I also thinkin the lab animal world.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
This feeds into the same thing about all those
wonderful enrichment programsthat everyone does Like.
It makes a difference when youcan help work an animal's brain,
because they clearly haveawesome thoughts going on up
there.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Yeah, yeah, you definitely got to keep them
stimulated, so that thing, Imean I think they get bored, you
know, and it would come a longways over the years with
enrichment, so but so that's itfor that one.
If you want to, we'll havelinks to all these along when we
publish the episodes and we'lltry to maybe get the videos now
(23:39):
like a super exciting video orimagine like an old, like 1980s,
or maybe even like an Atarivideo game which is kind of even
before our time.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Almost like Pong you know, is what the videos look
like.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Cool.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
So, but we could put them up.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
We could put videos on Instagram right.
Sometimes you just have to dolike a screen video, like a
screenshot video, but I can dothat.
I'll figure it out.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Yes, yes, since we kind of merged our second
article into one.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
You can talk about your.
I have many questions on thisarticle.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Yeah.
So I don't know why and I mean,listen, love the Navy and but
this study was supported by theOffice of Naval Research and
Naval Undersea Warfare Center.
I feel like they've got betterthings to probably support, but
I mean it was out of BrownUniversity, so maybe they were
(24:31):
just like supporting it.
Either way, this is how itstarts.
Anyone who's ever done a bellyflop into a swimming pool knows
it ends with a blunt soundingsplash and a big splash in a
searing red sting and mostpeople.
What most people don't know iswhy.
So this is what we studied tofigure out how we could do less
(24:53):
pain.
We could do less painful bellyflops, and these researchers
have the answer.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
So wait, so is this human subjects research.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
I don't even want to get into the details on it.
No, they didn't even like youthink you just?
Get like all right line them upand start doing belly flops,
you know, and then have them doa pain score and just see
whoever has the best technique.
But no, I got it got realcomplicated.
They have belly flop like waterexperiments, they use this
blunt cylinder and then theyhave like this.
(25:25):
So this isn't animal researcheither.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
This is just ridiculous research that you
want to talk about becausepublic funds have gone to it.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
I think the only tie to an animal is I think they
talk about how so diving birdsare able to like do?
Speaker 2 (25:43):
this over and over and without any consequences.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Well, and it's funny that I saw this article and then
there was a whole separatearticle about how those birds
can dive in at like I don't knowhow fast they're going like 40
miles an hour or something likethat into the water, and how can
they do that without sufferingconcussions?
Speaker 2 (26:05):
I'm like well, I feel like they have a long beat to
kind of break the force a littlebit, you know, ease the force.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
I don't know if we have to do whole research
articles but researchexperiments on that, but hey,
someone is.
But I guess they're trying touse that information from those
diving birds and how they'reavoiding concussions.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Are belly flops in the Navy a big problem?
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Putting it back.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Are guys jumping off the boat?
Speaker 1 (26:27):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Totally missing the mark.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
I'll have to ask my dad.
I mean, that wasn't the Navy,all right, is this a part of
your training?
Like, do you have to belly flopeffectively to be in the Navy?
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Now I picture a military out there on a boat,
just having fun, just bellyflopping, jumping up the side of
the boat.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Cannonball Right, just perfecting that technique.
Like you have them over at yourhouse, they do a belly flop and
it's perfect, doesn't hurt,can't?
Speaker 2 (26:54):
you learn that they just on the other pool put their
arms out and just lean forwardlike a bird, just ball flopping.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Right, so it's just a perfect little swan.
So swan dives, swan flop.
So I mean I really don'tunderstand all of the
implications and I just can'tbelieve we spent so much time
investigating this and maybe wedid, maybe they did it all in a
(27:21):
day.
Yeah, maybe it was like the endof the year.
You know you got money to spend, but he used it or lose it,
kind of thing, and they're likelet's do belly flops.
And so, anyways, they figuredout and there's no real answer,
like doesn't tell you the besttechnique at every like, at any
point in this article toactually do a belly flop.
They just show like differentangles can increase, like impact
(27:46):
forces.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Seems like common sense yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Seems kind of intuitive, yeah, so they just
kept like dropping the cylinder.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Maybe these were people who, like, didn't take
swim lessons as kids and likedidn't learn to like put your
arms in front of you and diveinto the pool, or jump like a
pencil where your feet go infirst Right.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
I mean, how many people are just belly?
Speaker 2 (28:06):
flopping and just hope for the best.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Right and they're just trying to figure out, like
how can you enter a pool withoutso painful?
You know, they just can't do it.
How are these people doing?
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Scientists.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Maybe there is a whole community of people that,
just like, haven't figured outhow to get into the pool.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
This has been on their mind.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
So I mean so, but anyways that's that.
That's that I mean just.
I think belly flop contest waslike a highlight of some of my
childhood.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
For us it was always cannonballs.
It was who could make thebiggest splash.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Yeah, Just going out and being like yeah, I mean that
, of course, that too.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
But did you just like ?
Do you remember canopeners?
Did you do canopeners?
Okay, I'm glad that canopenersare a jump across the US that
people know about.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Canopeners also.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Yep, I've heard.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
I believe right.
Yeah, jackknife.
Okay, yeah, we would do both.
Yeah, I've been trying to teachmy kids.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
I mean, they're great at cannonballs, but yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Yeah, like you got like hold the knee and go in,
which I feel like this is like.
I think you don't need to dothat.
You know it's just like kidsbeing kids.
I'm not sure it's moreeffective holding like one leg
up and going down, going in bothlegs down.
I don't know.
I guess you can like pull backharder, but yeah, but then you
(29:28):
got to do the belly flopcompetitions as well, cause
who's who's willing to just airit out and go all out?
Speaker 2 (29:34):
I don't think I ever willingly did a belly flop Maybe
my brother, but not me.
Yeah, no.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
I'm afraid now I'm not doing it now?
My kids want me to do it withthem.
When they do it and it's just,I'm not like.
I'm just like, hey, I'm too old.
I've way more like massed.
Now.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
When my son jumps in the pool he kind of does like a
gecko pose Like his arms arekind of like he jumps in on like
a diagonal angle and like hisknees kind of come up, but one's
usually a little higher thanthe other one and they're kind
of like out to the side, and hisarms are kind of like bent at
the elbow and he makes theselittle claws and he just like
jumps in.
And now I picture like a littlegecko, just like yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Right, that's hilarious.
There's one more line in here.
It talks about how and whybelly flops happen, and it just
talks about like one of the oneof the issues is you're at a
pool party and you have triviaand everyone's trying to figure
out why belly bops, belly flops,belly flops hurt so much?
Speaker 2 (30:36):
No, no, I haven't have you ever done that?
I never have.
Are you sure you're not readingthis on like?
Speaker 1 (30:40):
These people don't these people are living.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Is this how the onion or some like joke website?
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Real life.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Okay, science daily.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Okay, Science daily.
I mean, if science daily is ajoke website we've been giving
people that information for twoyears.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
And if we're just for a year and a half, if we're
just learning this now, weshould not be hosting this
podcast.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
This will be our last episode.
All right, Thanks everyone forsticking sticking with us.
I know, like I said, we life'sjust got kind of busy and we
weren't doing this consistently.
But here we are back to backmonths.
Yep, Planned on being backevery month with some news bites
.
The interview episodes, like Isaid, are just harder to
schedule and get people tocommit and give us their time,
(31:25):
because it is all kind ofvolunteer.
We don't, you know, have a hugebudget where we're able to pay
people to come in or offeranything.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
We've interviewed all of our connections and trends.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Yeah, I know we've tapped out and now people are
like, well, it's a lot ofcommitment.
So again, you can email us liveat chat at gmailcom.
You have ideas or they knowanyone or want to be on the show
, you know, be more than happyto talk to you about that.
And then check us out on socialmedia, and you never know.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
I find some cute little stuff.
I'll get extra and we'll doanother giveaway.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Thanks everyone, and we'll talk to you next time, see
ya.
This podcast is supported by Americans for
Medical Progress and was foundedand created through the Michael
D Hare Fellowship, awardedannually to support projects
that inform and educate thepublic about the critical role
of animal research in furtheringmedical progress.
The Fellowship honors the lateDr Michael Hare, a renowned
board-certified laboratoryanimal veterinarian who
dedicated his career toscientific and medical
(00:25):
advancements and who was deeplycommitted to animal welfare and
advocacy.
Hey, everyone, welcome into theNovember edition of the Labrat
Chat NewsVide episodes.
Thanks for joining us today.
And look at this we are back toback months now doing NewsVide
episodes.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
We did.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
September or we did.
No, we didn't do September, wedid October and now November.
So hopefully we'll be back ontrack doing this every month,
like we had set up last episodelast month, and keep bringing
you these exciting stories everysingle month about things going
on in the field of animalresearch and just random animal
stories.
Danielle has two stories.
(01:04):
I have two stories, Turns outwe talked before the episode.
We're actually like an hourinto this recording.
We're just now getting toactually starting to record.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Yeah, we goofed off quite a bit.
And I will say so.
I read my articles before westarted this and I just realized
that I already forgoteverything that I read, so I'm
reading them again now, whileyou give the intro.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
So you want me to.
How long should I make theintro?
Speaker 2 (01:23):
You need like five, ten minutes.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
So my two episodes and I mean usually we'll do some
like life update stuff I feellike that much really happened
in the last 30 days.
I've just been working and it'sall boring and stuff nobody
wants to hear about.
So, I don't have anything fun.
My wife and kids are having fun, and Alaina going to the zoo
and aquarium while I'm stuckhere.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
You're a business owner now.
Your life is tied to.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Tied to work.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Yeah, except doing this podcast.
I feel like this podcast iskind of like a.
I think it's more of like ahobby than anything else.
I just enjoy it.
Hopefully it comes out,hopefully it shows when we do
this we're not here like noone's forcing us to do these,
we're just doing it every month,just hopefully brings some
people some enjoyment and someand hopefully a little bit of
(02:13):
like learning material,Something low ed, educating Edgy
Is that?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
the right word Educational.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
There you go.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
All right.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Sometimes we go home school and sometimes I really
worry what our kids are learning.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Well, yeah, and last month we did the fun little
giveaway on Instagram.
We got a lot of entries.
It was super fun Picked thewinner, shipped off the prize.
I should probably check thetracking number.
I imagine that will be arriving.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Hopefully it already arrived this week, but yeah,
I'll maybe throw some more ofthose in if I find one little.
Yeah, I didn't win.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
You didn't win an entrance, I was real
disappointed.
You can't win if you don't play.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
That's true.
That's true, I think my son.
Right before I startedrecording.
My dogs were barking outsideand now she's like standing
right next to me going nuts.
I think she can hear youthrough the headphones.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
And it's like strange or dangerous in here.
For sure, she doesn't know whatto do.
She won't leave me alone.
So there's like weird dog noisesnext to me.
Her tail keeps hitting thetable.
I apologize, but All right, itis what it is.
So my two articles are I haveone about muscle research and
(03:25):
how we can get faster resultswith fewer laboratory animals,
so kind of focusing on the threeRs for that article, which is
always always good to do.
And then I have another oneabout kind of rats imagine and
rats get to play.
Vr video games.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
So I have that same article, but I think it'll be
cool because it'll finally bethat we've both read the article
and we can actually have aconversation about it.
But my other article is alsomuscle related, but not the same
one as you.
It's about immune cells helpingcontrol muscle inflammation
during exercise.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
So we'll save our, our dual one for last.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah, like I said, we both read it, but clearly you
are reading it while I'm talkingabout this first story.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Well, I've read it twice.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
By the time we finished, okay, and then I do
have just a completely bonkersresearch study just to briefly
mention at the end.
Just it just blows my mind thattaxpayer dollars go towards
these sorts of things.
All right, I'll start off.
So my story about muscleresearch just talks about
(04:37):
specifically how they use mice.
So mice are a great modelorganism for studying muscle
diseases and these researchersat the university Basel Basel is
B-A-S-E-L.
Doesn't say where that is.
Doesn't sound like it's in theUnited States, if it is.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Sorry, sorry but don't.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
I say that Basel, there must be basel, huh or
basel, but I don't know.
No help here.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
No, I got nothing.
Okay, if I knew where it wasfrom, I could turn on my accents
and say oh, it is basel, but Idon't know if that's French.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
So Right, and it might be American.
And then?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Then it's basel.
No, I'm just kidding.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
That's Louisiana.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
All right, except you said it way too fast, it's slow
but down oh basel.
All right.
So, like I said, researchersuse the mouse as a model to
study structure and function ofmainly skeletal muscle, and so
they can study differentneuromuscular diseases, aging
processes as we age, you know,we lose a good amount of muscle
(05:46):
mass, and so these researchersat the University of Basel have
decided to find a way to reducethe number of mice, because it
takes a long time.
As you know, when you're doingany like gene function studies
with mice, you know you have tolike create like generations of
(06:06):
mice to knock out those genes.
Right, we've all, if you'vebeen in the lab over and worked
with mice or know anything aboutit.
It's just kind of like aprocess for you're knocking in
or knocking out different genesthrough generations of mice, so
to get what you want.
But now these researchers, withthe use of the CRISPR-Cas9
(06:27):
method, they use a virus tointroduce the so-called like the
Cas9 protein, which can thenget into the organism and then
into the nucleus, and then itcan actually change the DNA
where, specifically where theywant it to, and that changes
that DNA will then allow thegene function to be altered
(06:51):
within the cell and thenultimately within the mouse, so
they can change the genefunction in a living animal,
instead of having to breed moreand change them through
generation of mice.
And so the researchers the firstthing they had to do was breed
the mice with that Cas9 proteinthat's on the muscle fibers, but
(07:12):
only on the muscle fibers,because we don't they were, we,
I was not involved.
They didn't want to change anyother cells on the body,
obviously.
So they did that.
They bred it, they got the Cas9protein right there on the
muscle fiber and then they couldinsert their the virus, along
(07:33):
with whatever gene modificationsthey wanted to make, and it
would go straight to those Cas9spots on the muscle, get into
the cells, change the geneticmakeup of that cell, and now
those animals can all be used tostudy different gene
modifications without having tobe bred over years and years.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
And then they can study, does it say, if you then
bred those mice, would theiroffspring have the same genetics
?
Speaker 1 (08:03):
It doesn't say I know that's so.
That's one of the fears aboutthe CRISPR system and altering
genes is that if you alter themand one like if you alter them
and the one mouse, that nowtheir offspring are going to be
affected to it.
Maybe you don't want it to youbecause you're doing it for a
research or testing purposesthat has a negative consequence,
and so I know that's one oflike the fears about the CRISPR
(08:25):
Cas9 system.
It's like generational changesthat you can't maybe get back.
So it doesn't say and I'm surethere's more research out there
on that and I'm sure they'vethey they probably know the
answer, but it doesn'tnecessarily say if those changes
are.
I think they can keep breedingthe Cas9 mice so they can make
(08:49):
the changes when they want towith new mice.
I don't know if they can letthose changes affect their
offspring or if they're evenbreeding them after, so but then
they can just make thosechanges to the genes and they
can study those muscle fibersand neuromuscular diseases and
they don't need a large numberof mice to do it.
So I mean that's kind of cool.
(09:09):
They can reduce, they can stillget what they need accomplished
.
Generations of breeding and yeah, and then we can get data
faster and everything too.
We're not waiting for a bunchof changes to happen.
So yeah, all right, but yeah,so that's it for that one.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Well, I'll piggyback on that with my muscle one.
So a research group.
And again, where are they from?
I don't know?
Harvard, Harvard Medical School.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
See, I read this like an hour ago and I forgot that
is in the US.
That is, yes, I mean it's.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Harvard no.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Yeah, yeah, do your Boston accent for that one, huh.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Harvard, it's true, kind of so the group in up in
Harvard.
They did a research projectinvolving mice and exercise to
try to figure out why exercisingyou know people go to the gym.
They want to either get rippedor get lean or you know you're
working your muscles at the gymwhy do you not have crazy damage
(10:04):
to your muscles andinflammation?
And you know, swollen knees andpain?
Obviously you have some musclepain because you've broken down
the muscle fibers, but why is itnot such severe muscle damage?
So they found out that we havethe cell group called regulatory
T cells which prevent excessivemuscle inflammation during and
(10:25):
after physical activity bysuppressing and I'm reading this
so it sounds a little roboticby suppressing the production of
a pro-inflammatory messengerprotein or cytokine called IFNY,
and I don't know if I'msupposed to call that IFNY or
IFNI.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
I like the IFNY.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Because IFNY is a little more fun.
So I think I'm going to say itfor this article.
So by having the T cell, theregulatory T cells, activate, it
suppresses the IFNY cytokinecells.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Is it a Y or is it like the gamma, like that?
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Oh, hmm.
Well, it looks like maybe it isthe gamma.
It looks like a lowercase Y,but now that I'm questioning
that, I don't know how to saythat.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
then it's like if you're on something gamma.
I think that's what IFN is.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Why is Now IFN question mark oh it's the
Insurance Federation of New York.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
Gotcha, that's what it is.
Yeah, interfere on gamma,that's IFNY.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Okay, all right Cool.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
I mean, stick with it me, you know.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
No, because I literally had to zoom my
eyeballs in on this website andI guess it is a little gamma
sign.
See, that's why we have a vetas our co-host on this show.
You can pronounce things anddetermine things much quicker
than I can.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Not always.
Not usually.
Not usually.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Well, I don't know that one either.
But also it shows that mice thatdon't have the regulatory T
cells so they can either turnthem off Again it's probably a
knock-in or a knock-outsituation.
They create more of IFNY duringthe exercise and having those
higher cytokine levels reducesthe animal's ability to gain
physical endurance.
They did this with short-termand long-term experiments.
(12:04):
The short-term they weretesting levels, I think day one,
three and seven, and then thelong-term ones, again, this
involved treadmills for theshort-term, I think long-term,
it said that the mice had accessto a hamster wheel, mouse wheel
, whatever you want to call it,at all times and they were
tested at two, three or fourweeks.
It's kind of a long-term studybecause maybe if we can figure
(12:27):
out if the T regulatory T cellsget turned off with aging and
you have age-related tissuedamage, maybe different
therapies can target it to helpelderly people don't stay ripped
at the gym, their muscle justdeflates what do you call it
(12:48):
when your muscle is justdeteriorating.
They're looking at maybe thelong-term of being able to help
injuries or elderly people tomaintain endurance and muscle
tone longer, if maybesomething's getting turned off
in their system and a differenttherapy could turn it back on.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
I think you lose and don't quote me I think by the
time you're 65, 75, or just asyou age in general, I think you
end up losing like 35% or so ofyour muscle mass.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Unless you're actively trying to work out.
Yeah, it doesn't come back.
They're looking at.
Well, maybe if you canmanipulate the regulatory T
cells, maybe you can improve.
They call it geriatric patients, it just sounds so cruel
improve their health withoutthat inflammatory repercussion.
So I don't know.
(13:42):
Very interesting, I like tothink.
A little mice just titilling iton a little treadmill.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Living their best life.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Just hitting the bench press there.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
That would be.
I mean, it is important tofigure out how to maintain some
muscle mass as you age, Justbecause so many injuries are
involved around and the elderlyjust as far as muscle mass goes,
and not having strength orstuff in the upper curb and
falling and they're likedevastating injuries.
So you know what to maintain.
(14:14):
That would be Awesome, andworking out every day and
hitting the gym isn't alwaysnecessarily feasible when you
get older.
Yeah, that Outlive book that Italked about last time.
He talks a lot about ways tomaintain muscle mass and the
goal of that book is to try toyou know how to increase your
longevity and health span.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Well, I know you're obsessed with living forever, so
it goes into a lot of that.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
I know when you brought it up, this time I don't
want to live, you know, butjust making sure you have like
that, that good like health span, along with lifespan they
actually like can run around andyour older age and play with
grandkids and stuff.
So anyways, that's not good onthat road.
No, but read the book, thebook's pretty.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
This is not a paid endorsement.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Sorry, it is not at all.
He would be a great guest, buthe's never coming on our show.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Should we All right?
So our next article is the sameone.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
VR time.
Yeah, yeah, you want me tostart, it All right.
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Let's do it.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
And you just jump in.
Obviously, humans have animagination, quite an extensive
imagination.
Especially if you have kids,the imaginations are real.
Jeff, that stain that I showedyou no, this is the side note,
or, if you're Daniel, that stainthat I showed you on the
ceiling.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Or if you're Daniel, I my son saw it and I was like
you know, how could that havegotten up there?
And he's like maybe there was afrog that came in the house and
he had just finished eatingFrench fries, so he was greasy
and he jumped really high and hehit the ceiling and he left a
little grease mark on theceiling.
And I'm like buddy, that is thebest theory of why there's a
strange greasy mark on myceiling and we have 10, we have
(15:52):
10 foot ceilings downstairs, soit's not like like it's up there
, like I don't know how I got upthere, but I just will forever
imagine a frog having justtotally gone bananas on a French
fry container.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Right, yeah that, that, that frog.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Hit the gym getting his endurance up, eating those
French fries though, whicharen't really part of the gym
lifestyle.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
but I mean workout hard.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
You know the word yourself a little bit.
So greasy frog left a mark onmy ceiling.
Maybe it's probably the frog'scheek day.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
That's what it was.
Yes, he ate the fries and thenhe jumped up there and well, I'm
glad he's, I'm glad he's stillthere.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
I just loved his imagination because he was
really.
It was like a thoughtful like.
This is the theory that I'mgoing to tell my parents of how
that mark got up there.
But it also begs the questionof like did he throw something
up there and he was trying tocover his tracks?
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
It was the perfect outline of a mouse, so they only
think he could have thrown us amouse.
Because you have a little mousetoy Many mouse shaped toys in
our house because I just lovemice.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
Oh, that's true, but none of, none of my mice, none
of my little mice are greasy, soI don't know how that got up on
the ceiling.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Well, all the grease hit the ceiling and came out of
the mouse.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Yeah, it absorbed it and cleaned the mouse off, and
then he put it back.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Yeah, I mean, you have quite the imagination as
well.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
It was where I was getting it going yeah, right
right, all your little mouse, mylittle demented life that I
live, yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Stories.
I don't use Instagram a wholelot, but whenever I do, whenever
I open it up, it's your mousepictures.
Yeah, it's fun Every time.
So anyways, humans obviouslyhave a vast imagination and it's
.
I mean, I guess we've kind ofpondered whether or not animals
have that same type ofimagination and then we've never
(17:31):
really thought that, like miceor rats have it.
But the new study out of HowardHughes Medical Institute, I had
to look up what HHMI was.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Well yes, the story says it right, so.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
I'm on live science, so shout out to live science and
science dailycom.
So one of the one of the tasks,like if you're driving, you're
walking, you kind of you canimagine the route without
thinking about it.
You're kind of a planning outyour route and your head on how
you're going to get somewhere.
Yeah, I don't think you justhave passion for getting your
car unless you do it over andover and over to go, but or you
(18:16):
just follow GPS, but it's aroutine commute to work or a
trip to an unfamiliar location.
You're using some sort ofimagination, and so they tried
to kind of recreate this andmice.
And so all this imagination,rats, rats.
You're right.
Yeah, What'd I say?
I said mice.
Well, we were talking aboutmice.
So imaginations controlled bythe hippocampus which, as we
(18:39):
know, it's involved in learningand memory, and I guess
previously they've shown peoplewith damaged hemp, hemp, a camp.
This is our hemp hippocampi, Idon't know.
They struggled to like imaginethings.
They have problems likefiguring out where they're going
or or just imagining in general, and so they took on.
(19:01):
This article was published inscience, by the way, just on
November 2nd.
So we're this is very new, whichis great.
I know Super current, and sothey basically use virtual
reality and a brain machine toshow that rats can indeed
illustrate that they haveimagination.
I know you want to talk alittle bit about it.
(19:22):
I was trying to kind of pictureit as I was reading they put
them on like a sphere treadmillthing.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
So I'm picturing them like running on top of a ball
and they're in a 360 virtualreality thing and they can train
the rat to kind of run on thisball and run to a specific
location in this virtual realityspot and then there's a reward
there and then they'll take awaythe images, like, so the rat
isn't seeing it.
(19:48):
No, I already missed, missed apart.
First they had something hookedup to his brain, that brain
machine interface.
So they're kind of recordingwhat the hippocampus is.
Again, I don't know how, likemaybe it's like Morse code, like
beep, beep, beep, beep, beep,but they're getting this, this
recording of what the brain is,I don't know, thinking and
converting it into what themachine, I don't again.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Yeah, I think they had them.
They had them like run towardsthe firstly, like trained them
they can go towards the goalpostand get a treat, and then they
set up the game and the VRsystem where they were kind of
fixed on a spot.
And they had their brain hookedup and their brain, they could
track it.
(20:31):
There's something on the screenthat they could basically like
imagine getting to that goalpostand when their brain got there
they would get a treat.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
And they have like this video.
That probably would have helpedme understand this a little
better.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Okay, yeah, it helped me, so they.
But basically it's I mean it'ssome complex like just
technology and brain studies.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
I did read that it took nine years to get there and
I can't even imagine thescience that went into this.
It's totally cool.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Yeah, and so they have like a, they have a
goalpost, if you will, and theyhave like, which is where the
rats need to get to get thetreat.
And they can like see the rat,although they're not actually
getting there.
They can like see the ratthrough the hippocampus,
planning its route on how it'sgoing to get there, and then
when it gets there and the brainit's basically mapped out the
route to get there and it hitsit via imagination.
(21:19):
They get a treat and thenthey'll move the goalpost to
different spots and you can likesee this little target which is
basically tracking the ratsimagination, if you will, and
when, whenever that dot hits thegoalpost, it gets the treat.
And then they even did it forlike an for objects.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yeah, they had like a jumper task and a Jedi task
Moving an object into thegoalpost.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Yeah yeah, the Jedi task was to use the force, if
you will, to move a box towardthe goal post and whenever they
can use, like harness, theirmental map to think about
navigating the object throughthe environment without actually
moving, and they get the objectto the goal.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
And it also talked about the rat's attention span
to that, because we don't knowwhat an animal's attention span
is, but they were, you know,thinking of things that weren't
there for many seconds.
And again, we have no idea whatthe correct attention span of a
rat should be, but it isshowing that they kind of stay
(22:18):
on the same thought for longerthan just a millisecond, you
know.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yeah, I mean it's kind of.
I mean, I'm not reading thescience article.
I'm sure the science articlegoes into all these details.
I do want all the numbers andstatistics and all that stuff to
go with it.
You could go there to get that,yeah, but just in general, it
just shows that they do havethis like cognitive ability to
imagine and play in.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
I think this just feeds into my brain of like I
just picture these little ratsgoing home in the wild and their
little burrows and being likeoh, what's for dinner?
I really wish I could find moreacorns.
Like.
I just feel like it adds to thecuteness of like what's for
dinner tonight.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Right, and then they're playing on how to like
get out there and I also thinkin the lab animal world.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
This feeds into the same thing about all those
wonderful enrichment programsthat everyone does Like.
It makes a difference when youcan help work an animal's brain,
because they clearly haveawesome thoughts going on up
there.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Yeah, yeah, you definitely got to keep them
stimulated, so that thing, Imean I think they get bored, you
know, and it would come a longways over the years with
enrichment, so but so that's itfor that one.
If you want to, we'll havelinks to all these along when we
publish the episodes and we'lltry to maybe get the videos now
(23:39):
like a super exciting video orimagine like an old, like 1980s,
or maybe even like an Atarivideo game which is kind of even
before our time.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Almost like Pong you know, is what the videos look
like.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
Cool.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
So, but we could put them up.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
We could put videos on Instagram right.
Sometimes you just have to dolike a screen video, like a
screenshot video, but I can dothat.
I'll figure it out.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Yes, yes, since we kind of merged our second
article into one.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
You can talk about your.
I have many questions on thisarticle.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Yeah.
So I don't know why and I mean,listen, love the Navy and but
this study was supported by theOffice of Naval Research and
Naval Undersea Warfare Center.
I feel like they've got betterthings to probably support, but
I mean it was out of BrownUniversity, so maybe they were
(24:31):
just like supporting it.
Either way, this is how itstarts.
Anyone who's ever done a bellyflop into a swimming pool knows
it ends with a blunt soundingsplash and a big splash in a
searing red sting and mostpeople.
What most people don't know iswhy.
So this is what we studied tofigure out how we could do less
(24:53):
pain.
We could do less painful bellyflops, and these researchers
have the answer.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
So wait, so is this human subjects research.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
I don't even want to get into the details on it.
No, they didn't even like youthink you just?
Get like all right line them upand start doing belly flops,
you know, and then have them doa pain score and just see
whoever has the best technique.
But no, I got it got realcomplicated.
They have belly flop like waterexperiments, they use this
blunt cylinder and then theyhave like this.
(25:25):
So this isn't animal researcheither.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
This is just ridiculous research that you
want to talk about becausepublic funds have gone to it.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
I think the only tie to an animal is I think they
talk about how so diving birdsare able to like do?
Speaker 2 (25:43):
this over and over and without any consequences.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Well, and it's funny that I saw this article and then
there was a whole separatearticle about how those birds
can dive in at like I don't knowhow fast they're going like 40
miles an hour or something likethat into the water, and how can
they do that without sufferingconcussions?
Speaker 2 (26:05):
I'm like well, I feel like they have a long beat to
kind of break the force a littlebit, you know, ease the force.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
I don't know if we have to do whole research
articles but researchexperiments on that, but hey,
someone is.
But I guess they're trying touse that information from those
diving birds and how they'reavoiding concussions.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Are belly flops in the Navy a big problem?
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Putting it back.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Are guys jumping off the boat?
Speaker 1 (26:27):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Totally missing the mark.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
I'll have to ask my dad.
I mean, that wasn't the Navy,all right, is this a part of
your training?
Like, do you have to belly flopeffectively to be in the Navy?
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Now I picture a military out there on a boat,
just having fun, just bellyflopping, jumping up the side of
the boat.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Cannonball Right, just perfecting that technique.
Like you have them over at yourhouse, they do a belly flop and
it's perfect, doesn't hurt,can't?
Speaker 2 (26:54):
you learn that they just on the other pool put their
arms out and just lean forwardlike a bird, just ball flopping.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Right, so it's just a perfect little swan.
So swan dives, swan flop.
So I mean I really don'tunderstand all of the
implications and I just can'tbelieve we spent so much time
investigating this and maybe wedid, maybe they did it all in a
(27:21):
day.
Yeah, maybe it was like the endof the year.
You know you got money to spend, but he used it or lose it,
kind of thing, and they're likelet's do belly flops.
And so, anyways, they figuredout and there's no real answer,
like doesn't tell you the besttechnique at every like, at any
point in this article toactually do a belly flop.
They just show like differentangles can increase, like impact
(27:46):
forces.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Seems like common sense yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
Seems kind of intuitive, yeah, so they just
kept like dropping the cylinder.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Maybe these were people who, like, didn't take
swim lessons as kids and likedidn't learn to like put your
arms in front of you and diveinto the pool, or jump like a
pencil where your feet go infirst Right.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
I mean, how many people are just belly?
Speaker 2 (28:06):
flopping and just hope for the best.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Right and they're just trying to figure out, like
how can you enter a pool withoutso painful?
You know, they just can't do it.
How are these people doing?
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Scientists.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Maybe there is a whole community of people that,
just like, haven't figured outhow to get into the pool.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
This has been on their mind.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
So I mean so, but anyways that's that.
That's that I mean just.
I think belly flop contest waslike a highlight of some of my
childhood.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
For us it was always cannonballs.
It was who could make thebiggest splash.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Yeah, Just going out and being like yeah, I mean that
, of course, that too.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
But did you just like ?
Do you remember canopeners?
Did you do canopeners?
Okay, I'm glad that canopenersare a jump across the US that
people know about.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Canopeners also.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Yep, I've heard.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
I believe right.
Yeah, jackknife.
Okay, yeah, we would do both.
Yeah, I've been trying to teachmy kids.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
I mean, they're great at cannonballs, but yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Yeah, like you got like hold the knee and go in,
which I feel like this is like.
I think you don't need to dothat.
You know it's just like kidsbeing kids.
I'm not sure it's moreeffective holding like one leg
up and going down, going in bothlegs down.
I don't know.
I guess you can like pull backharder, but yeah, but then you
(29:28):
got to do the belly flopcompetitions as well, cause
who's who's willing to just airit out and go all out?
Speaker 2 (29:34):
I don't think I ever willingly did a belly flop Maybe
my brother, but not me.
Yeah, no.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
I'm afraid now I'm not doing it now?
My kids want me to do it withthem.
When they do it and it's just,I'm not like.
I'm just like, hey, I'm too old.
I've way more like massed.
Now.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
When my son jumps in the pool he kind of does like a
gecko pose Like his arms arekind of like he jumps in on like
a diagonal angle and like hisknees kind of come up, but one's
usually a little higher thanthe other one and they're kind
of like out to the side, and hisarms are kind of like bent at
the elbow and he makes theselittle claws and he just like
jumps in.
And now I picture like a littlegecko, just like yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Right, that's hilarious.
There's one more line in here.
It talks about how and whybelly flops happen, and it just
talks about like one of the oneof the issues is you're at a
pool party and you have triviaand everyone's trying to figure
out why belly bops, belly flops,belly flops hurt so much?
Speaker 2 (30:36):
No, no, I haven't have you ever done that?
I never have.
Are you sure you're not readingthis on like?
Speaker 1 (30:40):
These people don't these people are living.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Is this how the onion or some like joke website?
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Real life.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Okay, science daily.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Okay, Science daily.
I mean, if science daily is ajoke website we've been giving
people that information for twoyears.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
And if we're just for a year and a half, if we're
just learning this now, weshould not be hosting this
podcast.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
This will be our last episode.
All right, Thanks everyone forsticking sticking with us.
I know, like I said, we life'sjust got kind of busy and we
weren't doing this consistently.
But here we are back to backmonths.
Yep, Planned on being backevery month with some news bites
.
The interview episodes, like Isaid, are just harder to
schedule and get people tocommit and give us their time,
(31:25):
because it is all kind ofvolunteer.
We don't, you know, have a hugebudget where we're able to pay
people to come in or offeranything.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
We've interviewed all of our connections and trends.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Yeah, I know we've tapped out and now people are
like, well, it's a lot ofcommitment.
So again, you can email us liveat chat at gmailcom.
You have ideas or they knowanyone or want to be on the show
, you know, be more than happyto talk to you about that.
And then check us out on socialmedia, and you never know.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
I find some cute little stuff.
I'll get extra and we'll doanother giveaway.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Thanks everyone, and we'll talk to you next time, see
ya.
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