October 30, 2024 • 57 mins
Jenny Rayner joins us for an emotionally powerful discussion about the tragic loss of her daughter, Lucy, and the remarkable work she has done since to prevent similar tragedies. Jenny's heartfelt story begins with the pressures Lucy faced, including job loss and a breakup, which culminated in her suicide in 2012. This episode is a testament to Jenny's resilience and demonstrates the importance of recognizing mental health vulnerabilities in loved ones, a skill that even trained professionals find challenging.
We explore the profound emotions tied to losing someone to suicide, highlighting the importance of self-kindness in navigating grief. Jenny shares her journey of accepting this loss and the significance of understanding grief as an ongoing journey of getting through rather than getting over. We also discuss the Lucy Rayner Foundation's support for mental health, especially for young people transitioning through significant life changes, addressing the inadequacies in mental health services and the vital importance of accessible care.
Lastly, we tackle the broader societal influences affecting mental health, such as social media and persistent stigma, and the struggles faced by mental health foundations in providing consistent support. Through events like "Can Anyone Hear Me," we emphasize the need for open discussions on mental health and the importance of regular medication reviews. Jenny's story, combined with our focus on fostering resilience, aims to inspire a future where mental health awareness and support are prioritized, offering hope amid despair.
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Guest: Jenny Rayner
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Andy Esam (00:00):
Welcome, listener.
I think this episode isprobably notable for how it made
me feel for the first 10minutes, which was incredibly
emotional, to the point where Icouldn't say anything.
Really, it was just so touching.
We're speaking to a lovely ladycalled Jenny Rayner who has set
(00:21):
up the lucy rainer foundationin memory of her daughter, um,
you know, uh, jenny rich.
What, yeah, talk to us about?
Dr. Richard L. Blake (00:32):
her, yeah, so jenny's doing some
impressive and inspiring thingsin the world of mental health
inspired by tragedy in her ownlife that she will tell you
about in the episode and she hasset up this foundation to deal
(00:55):
with a lot of the inadequaciesof the current mental health
service that we speak aboutquite a lot on this podcast and
we're going to talk about that.
We're going to talk aboutsuicide, so sort of trigger
warnings there, if that'ssomething you need, or we are
going to be speaking about thevery serious matter of suicide
and grief and losing familymembers and how to spot the
(01:16):
signs of someone who's in avulnerable position, how to
speak to them, how to get themthe help they need yeah and um.
Andy Esam (01:26):
I think jenny speaks with such authenticity and
knowledge.
I mean, this event happened toher in 2012 and, um, since then,
you cannot imagine what she hasdone.
So it's there's there's hope,as well as um the despair
listener.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (01:42):
Do you love what you're hearing?
If so, drop us a like, shareyour favorite episode with
friends and help us grow byleaving a review wherever you
get your podcasts.
Your support means the world tous and helps keep the
conversation going.
So tune in, follow like and,jenny, welcome to the pod.
(02:08):
Can you tell us what is thestory behind why you started a
foundation to help preventsuicide?
Jenny Reyner (02:16):
okay.
So I'm Jenny Rayner.
I have got three childrenmarried and my middle daughter,
lucy, always struggled with hermental health from like a really
young age, and we just assumedthat's how she was, and so she
(02:37):
grew up having mood swings andwe thought were just tantrums,
but she had problems regulatingher emotions.
So back in 2012, she worked fora company called PSA Finance
Peugeot and they did financingfor cars and she was their it
(02:59):
girl.
She was on all of theirpromotional materials as their
customer service frontlineperson.
They promoted her and thenwithin a week, the whole company
relocated to Coventry and madeher redundant.
So at the same time, she boughtherself a new car.
Therefore, she was thinking howam I going to pay for my car?
(03:23):
And she also split up with herboyfriend the night before, and
that was done all on socialmedia.
And that night I just got aphone call saying that is Lucy,
okay, from one of her friendsthat she'd broken up with her
boyfriend.
And so I checked in on her andI just said have you split up
(03:44):
with your boy?
She'd been seeing him for abouta year and a bit and she said,
yeah, we've broken up.
And it was done on Facebook.
So her status was single and soeverybody was starting to text
her and saying are you and yourpartner, have you split up?
And I I think that again put alot of pressure on her.
(04:05):
The following day we weresupposed to be going to my other
daughter who was at uni.
She'd just finished her firstyear, sat her exams and we were
really excited.
We're going to take her out fordinner to say congratulations.
But we also knew that Lucy hadbeen crying all night and we
kind of said to her out with us,just get away from the house.
(04:27):
And she was like no, I justwant to be on my own, just leave
me, I'll be okay.
And we just thought, okay, well, she's gone for a breakup,
maybe we'll just leave her tokind of like have some time to
herself and then when we getback we'll take her out for
dinner.
And so we set off and it waslike an hour and a half's drive
(04:48):
to where we were going to inLondon and we got to my
daughter's university.
We kind of like allcongratulating her and we're
asking about she was askingabout Lucy and we just said that
she'd just broken up with herboyfriend.
She's a bit down, yeah, butwhen we come back we'll cheer
her up.
So we all went out for dinner,we sat down, we ordered and just
(05:08):
got a phone call.
And the phone call was like areall your girls with you?
And my husband was like, no,well, they found a young girl at
the back of our house and ourhouse backs onto some woodlands
where the public walk.
They walk their dogs and theythey meander around just walking
(05:29):
through the park.
And we said no, they found ayoung girl.
She was found by a dog walkerand she'd hung herself at the
back of our house.
And do we need to come back?
Because the young girl wasmixed race.
Obviously my husband isCaucasian and I'm ethnic black.
(05:51):
And we just thought, oh my god.
My husband was like, get up,let's go.
And I was like, no, that's not,it's not her.
She would never do that to us.
She'd never spoken about, youknow, wanting to take her life.
So I don't think it's her.
(06:11):
But my husband was adamant Jen,we've got to go, we've got to
go.
She was in a state the nightbefore so it could be her.
And I was in utter denial.
I was like, even on the wayback my husband was driving like
a mad person just to get homewith my other two girls in the
back and they were phoningeverybody that lived near us to
go and check on Lucy and theywere coming back and saying that
(06:33):
her car was there.
So she was in the house andStuart was like no.
My husband was like no, we'regoing back.
We've got to go back and findout what's going on.
I, it's her.
So when we got back to our roadthere was like police cars,
ambulance, there was like it wasall cordoned off like in a
(06:54):
crime scene and I was just intotal shock at what we arrived
to.
My husband was like reallyfrantic and he had said we think
it's your daughter and it wasthe most awful shock that we
(07:16):
could have like arrived to.
My husband was angry.
We wanted to get into the house.
They wouldn't let us get in thehouse because that had now
become something of like a crimescene, because they needed to
find out what actually happened.
So we couldn't go in.
We couldn't see.
Then one of the policemen cameup to us and said your
daughter's been taken to EastSurrey Hospital.
(07:37):
There is a heartbeat and youneed to get down there.
So we all got into the policecar and we rushed down to East
Surrey Hospital where we sat inthe family's room while they
were working on my daughter andwe just sat and prayed so hard
that she'd be OK.
And then after about 45 minutesthe doctor came in and just
(08:02):
basically said we're reallysorry.
Every time they stopped CPR,her heart failed and there was
nothing that they could do tosustain her life.
That was it for us.
You know, the whole, our wholeworld just changed really from
that moment.
It was horrendous.
It took a long time for us tocome back from it and it was
(08:27):
done so publicly it was.
It was where everybody waswalking, so the newspaper got
wind of it and they were like onour tails and we're on the
front page of the summary mirror.
It was.
It was.
It was really awful time,really bad time.
I mean, yeah, good yeah.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (08:43):
Good my God.
Yeah, it's such an awful story,Jenny.
I feel very emotional justhearing it.
I can't imagine how emotionalit must be retelling it.
Jenny Reyner (08:56):
The ripple effect of something like that.
It not only affects immediatefamily, but it affected Lucy's
closest friends and she belongedto like a big group of girls
about 10 of them and none ofthem knew that she was
struggling neither.
So when the news came out thatshe had passed, oh, the fallout
(09:17):
for them was horrendous as well.
A lot of them came to drink andhad like really bad depression
that we had to support them with.
So when Lucy passed actuallywhen looking back she had gone
to her GP like two weeks beforeand she had told them that she
(09:38):
was really struggling with hermental health and they just
changed her contraceptive pill.
They said it was hormonal.
Now we knew it wasn't.
When she came back and saidI've just got new contraceptive
pills, we knew it was more thanjust her hormones.
We knew she struggled toregulate her emotions.
There is bipolar in myhusband's side of the family.
(10:01):
There's depression on my sideof the family, so you know it
could have been something thatwas hereditary.
So we knew something wasn'tright.
We did know, but we just didn'tknow how to support her.
We didn't have enoughinformation about mental health
to support her in the right way.
So when she'd gone to the GPand they changed her
(10:22):
contraceptive.
We just thought maybe that'swhat it was.
So when she passed we did amemorial for her and we raised
£15,000.
And we took that money to theGP surgery and we kind of said,
look, we've raised some money,here's £15,000.
(10:42):
Can we please have like acounsellor or even like a
psychiatric nurse to be based atour surgery?
And they said that we'vealready got that and I was like,
well, hang on a second then whydidn't you refer my daughter
when she told you she wasstruggling with her mental
health?
(11:02):
And they said that she didn'tpresent at someone that looked
depressed.
So I was like, well, hang on asecond.
What does depression look like?
Got really angry and I saiddepression doesn't have a gender
.
Depression doesn't have asocial standing.
(11:24):
It doesn't have a gender.
Depression doesn't have asocial standing.
It doesn't have a color.
It doesn't have an appearance.
Somebody can mask and somepeople, like Lucy, mask really
well.
Lucy was the life and son of aparty.
All her friends came to herwith their problems.
She was was very kind.
(11:46):
She always helped people thatwas in trouble.
We had letters coming throughour door saying how Lucy had
supported an elderly personbecause he'd fallen in the
street.
She'd taken him back to hishouse to give him a cup of tea,
phoned his daughter to come tothe house.
She was always doing acts ofkindness for people.
That's not what depression is.
(12:11):
Depression is something that'sinside you.
It's something that you can'tshare readily.
It's a feeling, it's an emotion, it's mental ill health.
You can't physically see thatin a person unless they actually
tell you.
So we kind of thought oh my God, they couldn't see it.
(12:35):
And these are people that aresupposed to be trained to be
able to pick up these things.
So we kind of thought well,actually, how many other young
people slip through that net whopresent to a GP and say I'm
really struggling with otherexams or whatever it is that
they come to the GP with fortheir depression or anxiety or
(12:58):
low mood?
When they go to the GP and theGP says well, it's a hormonal
thing.
How many young people slipthrough that net and don't get
seen and don't get heard andwalk away thinking no one can
help me.
The GP can, who can help me?
And in that moment us as afamily thought oh my god, I
(13:20):
don't want that to happen toanother young person.
So a year to the day of Lucy'spassing, we started our charity
in her name and now we seesomething like last year.
We saw 866 young people and putthem through our counselling
service and we have 50counsellors with no waiting list
(13:43):
.
Wow, and we're really, reallypleased to say that.
Andy Esam (13:48):
Don't miss it.
What is the name of thefoundation?
Jenny Reyner (13:51):
It's the Lucy Rayner Foundation.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (13:55):
We will be sure to link in that in show
notes.
But yeah, what you share there,jenny, is so true, very similar
to my experience.
I had depression for I don'tknow, 14, 15 years, a couple of
suicide attempts from myself,and when I really did my first
suicide attempt, the responsewas I can't believe you know
(14:16):
this happened.
I had no idea.
So many people just thought youknow, I was just a bit down or
you know I've just a bit low inenergy.
I was very good at masking it,just like you kind of have to be
to get along in society.
And I did reach out for help acouple of times and people were
just sort of like, yeah, okay,have you tried?
You know?
Just like, just really sort ofyou know, good, good meaning
(14:39):
advice, but not really what Imeant.
Like for me to just to speaklike I'm thinking about
committing suicide was just likeI kind of whispered it almost,
but it was a, it was a huge likeeffort to say that to someone.
And then when nothing reallyhappened, I was like, well, if
I've made all this effort toshare it with, I shared it with
a couple of people and thennothing had happened.
(15:00):
I was like, well, there's nohope for me, you know, so I may
as well just give up.
Um, so, and you know, I am asort of a trained mental health
practitioner as well in someregards.
You know phd in psychology andstudy psychotherapy.
The training to become apsychotherapist is incredibly
rigorous.
It is really hard.
Most people don't make it.
(15:20):
In terms like 50 of the peopleon my course from the first year
dropped out because to become apsychotherapist is really tough
.
And that just just shows youlike even these people who have
really tough training, like highacademic standards at
university, they still can'tspot someone who is on the verge
of suicide.
It just, yeah, it just reallyhighlights how tricky mental
(15:41):
health is.
And yeah, um, but, andy, youwant to, you want?
Andy Esam (15:46):
to share something I was just going to say.
So, just so I'm completelyclear, on the lucy reina
foundation, lucy RainerFoundation.
This is anyone of up to 18who's feeling it.
Jenny Reyner (15:55):
No, it's from 14 years of age to 39 years of age,
and we have to have obviously acategory, otherwise we'll just
run out of money.
Of course we have like an agerange, but we kind of feel that
14 to 39 is where life reallyhappens, where the transitioning
periods happen.
So you're going through puberty, you have exams, you go to
(16:18):
university, you have exams, youget a job, you get into
relationships, you have a family, you get married, you buy a
house, you have kids, and somuch happens in that timeframe
that people really struggle withtheir mental health, because
change some people just can'tdeal with change and when a lot
(16:39):
of change happens puts a lot ofstress on you.
So we kind of want to be thereto support people that when
they're going through those bigchanges yeah, absolutely yeah,
change.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (16:51):
I mean age 14 was when my depression
started as well.
So I'm glad to hear you'rehelping people that young.
But, ginny, I just want to goback to your experience.
So you mentioned you were numbthere.
Your husband was angry.
What else was going on for you?
Jenny Reyner (17:19):
Gosh.
For me, when you lose somebodyby suicide, the emotions that
you feel are so complex thatit's really hard to truly say
that there's a linear way thatyou have to grieve for somebody
that you lose.
So for me, I can only speakabout me.
For me, it was denial to beginwith.
I'm quite a spiritual person,so I do believe that we go to
(17:41):
somewhere else when we pass.
I was first in denial.
Then I just wanted to be inLucy's space.
Although I wanted to be in herspace, I couldn't bear to hear
her voice.
I didn't want to see any videosof her because the pain was
(18:03):
just too much, and the pain is aphysical pain.
I couldn't eat, I couldn'tsleep, I couldn't do anything
really, and the only way that Icould get through the day was
just moment by moment and I hadto find something to focus on,
and the focus that I had wasfirst her funeral.
(18:24):
My husband wasn't any use to mebecause he just disintegrated.
He was really really emotionaland just couldn't articulate
anything.
He spent a lot of time in hisroom not wanting to speak to
anybody, just barely gettingthrough.
He had to go on antidepressantsFor me.
I just got focused.
(18:46):
What I call now is the doingphase.
The doing phase is to findanything and everything that I
could do to take my mind off thesubject or my feelings.
So I would go out off the walks, I would go and sit in the
cinema, sometimes on my own,just to get away from reality
and watch lots of Marvel filmswere my thing, just to be in a
(19:10):
different thought pattern, to bein a fantasy land, to not feel
what I'm feeling.
I focused on her funeral,choosing songs and what I think
she wanted with the girls.
I also started a projectbecause I knew I wasn't going to
go back to my old job.
(19:31):
I was trying to look at thingsthat I could do to kind of be
more present at home with my,the rest of my family.
I had a massive fear aboutlosing my other children as well
, because I know when someone,when you lose someone by suicide
, the actual reality of losingsomeone by suicide is real.
(19:51):
So I didn't want anything elseto happen to anyone else in my
family.
So I had an anxiety around that.
So I kept doing things for them, making sure they were all
right, making sure my husbandwas all right.
So I did a lot of doing.
And then, once Lucy's funeralhad gone, I worked, focused on
starting the charity andlearning a lot more about mental
(20:15):
health, because for me I didn'tknow enough, I wasn't able to
spot the signs.
I felt so much guilt aroundwhat if I had picked it up
earlier?
And there was a lot of what ifsand things that I could have
done, the things I should havedone, and I beat myself up about
that that I wasn't a good mumand if I knew my daughter enough
(20:36):
then I would have known, and Ididn't know.
She was really good at masking.
So, yeah, there was a the blowof my guilt.
So I had a mantra that was justbe kind to yourself.
(21:01):
Every time I had a randomthought or I was being angry at
myself or being angry at someoneelse for not understanding my
grief.
Because you know, once you havethe funeral, your friends and
family rally around you, sortsort of like in the early days.
But once the funeral is done,they all start falling away.
But you're still left with thatemptiness, that loss, that
(21:21):
heartache, and people just seemto feel that you should be over
it.
But a death by suicide takesages to even come to terms with
and it's not a getting oversomething, it's a getting
through it, and that gettingthrough takes years, absolute
years, and you never actuallylose that.
(21:45):
I kind of liken it to you know,like when you're on a track and
you've got this mountain that'sahead of you and you're carrying
like a really massive backpackthat is heavy and you're
climbing up this hill and thisbackpack is so heavy that it's
like almost dragging you downthe hill, but you're taking one
(22:08):
step at a time.
Eventually, you build muscle,you build the strength to carry
the backpack, and so, althoughthe weight is the same, you have
the ability to carry itstronger, you become more
resilient to it, and so it'sstill there, but you just carry
(22:32):
it better and if you look backat that grieving period, I mean
accepting that you probablynever stop grieving um, are
there any?
Andy Esam (22:41):
are there any tips that you would give?
I mean, you mentioned that youkind of threw yourselves in into
different spaces and you wentto see the marvel films and then
you just went into projects.
Any other advice you would give?
And being kind to yourselfseems like, yeah, the most
important for you.
But any other tips, advice youwould give and being kind to
yourself seems like yeah themost important for you, but any
other tips that you would giveperhaps so the other tips that I
(23:01):
would say is not to push awayyour emotions.
Jenny Reyner (23:05):
Some people will want to shut it down and not
want to feel what's coming up.
I'm saying you need to feeleverything.
Don't push things away becauseit will come back and it will
come back in with a vengeance.
So you have to allow yourfeelings to arise and you have
to acknowledge those feelings.
(23:26):
Yes, today I'm feeling reallyangry, and allow that anger to
come through.
If it means screaming at thetop of your voice, go to a top
of a hill and scream.
You know you're feeling reallysad and tearful.
Have a cry.
And if you find that you wantto cry and you can't bring that
(23:46):
up, maybe sit in front of atearful film or listen to songs
that will allow you to cry.
Know these are things you haveto help yourself with because it
is really really hard.
It is really hard.
So don't push your feelingsdown.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (24:04):
Allow them to come forward, because that's
the only way you will truly getthrough the pain of this and
come out the other side yeah, Ioften recommend that same
strategy, like watch a sad film,and because I think for some
people certainly people who'velearned to suppress their
emotions it can be like arelearning period of like where
(24:25):
you stop, you know whatever youinternalize as a child boys
don't cry.
Whatever you know, strongpeople don't show emotion.
There is a relearning periodthere.
I have used that technique manytimes.
It's almost like I can cry forsomeone else, like in a sad
movie, but then, once that dooris open, then I can cry for
(24:46):
myself.
And then you said you thought alot about what you could have
done differently.
I imagine there's a lot of sortof rumination and you said
you're beating yourself up.
Were there any conclusions?
You came to things you couldhave done different that you
might want to share with otherparents.
Jenny Reyner (25:03):
So Lucy left a note and I know that for some
they don't get the note, theydon't get the final thoughts of
that person that has passed, butwe, you know, we luckily she
left us a note on her laptop andin that note she exonerated
every single one of us.
She just said this is not aboutyou, this is about me, this is
(25:26):
about how I'm feeling and thatthis life is too hard.
And she was really sensitive toeverything.
This life was too hard for herand she just wanted out and that
we were not to blame ourselvesfor her.
She's saying that it's thekindest thing and she just and
she put it like I just want togo home, I want to return.
(25:47):
And so you know, I felt for me.
Although I felt for her, Ididn't take too much of the
blame.
(26:12):
After a while, when you exhaustyourself with all of that and
you realise there was nothingyou could have done, there
wasn't.
The decision was hers and itwas hers alone.
Nothing that I could have said,nothing that I would have done,
no ifs or buts would havechanged her decision.
(26:33):
It was her decision and herdecision alone.
And even if I had saved heronce once someone has tried to
take their life.
The likelihood of it happeningagain is going to happen and the
decision to stay is down tothem.
They have to have that will tostay, and lucy didn't and I'm
(27:01):
pleased with that.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (27:02):
I miss her dearly every day, but I've come
to peace with that now yeah,it's a painful realization that
you know, even as a parent, youcan't control.
You can't control anyone asmuch as you'd like to.
She was an adult, she was anadult, and an adult makes their
own decisions and you know Ikeep looking back like it'd like
to.
Jenny Reyner (27:16):
She was an adult.
She was an adult and an adultmakes their own decisions.
And you know, I keep lookingback.
I keep thinking I wish she wasthree again so I could tell her
what to do and keep her safe.
Andy Esam (27:28):
But once they're adults, you can't I was just
going to ask can we talk a bitmore about the good work of the
lucy reina foundation?
So what might it look like whensomeone comes to you?
Can you talk a bit about theprocess?
Dr. Richard L. Blake (27:42):
Sorry, Andy, before we go on to that,
just want to talk about theissues of the mental health.
What did you see that made youwant to start up a foundation?
Jenny Reyner (27:53):
So the first thing was the attitude of the doctors
.
She didn't present as someonethat was depressed.
That attitude in itself angeredme.
You know you can't just look atsomeone and assume that they're
okay when they're telling youthey're not.
She wasn't heard, she wasn'tseen and they didn't treat her
(28:15):
appropriately.
They misdiagnosed her.
They thought it was pneumoniaand it wasn't.
It was far more than that.
And they weren't treat herappropriately.
They misdiagnosed her.
They thought it was pneumoniaand it wasn't.
It was far more than that.
And they weren't prepared todelve deeper.
And I know doctors have a roughdeal and they have very little
time to see a person.
But when someone's saying Ineed help, I need support, I'm
feeling low.
What's the harm in referringthem to a talk-in therapy?
(28:39):
I'm feeling low.
What's the harm in referringthem to a talk in therapy?
You know?
So Lucy needs to talk tosomebody and share how she was
feeling, and that wasn't anoffer.
So that's what we wanted to doInitially.
We wanted to offer that serviceto any young person that was
struggling with their mentalhealth, and at 14, they can
self-refer.
(28:59):
They do not need an adult forthem to refer themselves, and it
also means that their parentscan refer on their behalf with
their consent.
It also means that GP can referto us as well on their behalf.
So anybody who is looking aftera young person and above can
(29:20):
self-refer to us.
And and that's what we thoughtwe wanted to do we wanted to
offer that service to anybody,any young person in surrey who
were struggling with theirmental health, and not to have a
waiting list, because it takesa lot, like you said, it takes a
lot for someone to even say I'mstruggling, that I'm having
(29:43):
suicidal thoughts, and so whenthey come to their GP, it takes
a lot of courage for somebodywho is really truly depressed to
say these words to a GP.
So we want to make sure thatwhen they come to us they're
seen very quickly.
We don't have a waiting list,which means that we are reactive
(30:03):
, so they can be seen straightaway, because we I know
personally of people who havegone to their GP and they have
told them there is a waitinglist of up to six months and
then that young person has saidcan no one help me?
And within days of thatappointment have ended up taking
(30:23):
their life, because once youreach the state of hopelessness,
there's no hope.
That's when the reality ofsomeone ending their life
becomes real yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (30:38):
And yeah, it reminds me of that statistic
from the Journal of AmericanMedicine.
A study showed that the thirdbiggest cause of death in the US
was iatrogenic illness, iemedical malpractice, which
includes misdiagnosis thatperhaps your daughter would go
under there.
And the medical system inAmerica, where I'm based, is the
(30:59):
subject of a lot of sort ofconspiracy theories and things
like that.
But when you find out the thirdleading cause of death in a
country is the medical system,it really raises a lot of
eyebrows and I expect it makesme quite angry, because the
medical system has such a adominance and a little bit of an
arrogance, like we know best.
You know I'm a doctor, are you?
(31:20):
You're not a doctor, yourproblems are hormonal or it's
just in your head and it leadsto, you know, tragedies like
this so a physical um buildingfor the lucy reina foundation,
or is some of it online?
Jenny Reyner (31:35):
no, it's online.
We do have a physical, aphysical headquarters where we
do training and we have ouroffices and so people can come
and see us.
Absolutely.
We have an open door policy andwe have some counselling rooms
in there as well where ourcounsellors can use the service
there.
Andy Esam (31:54):
And there's kind of a consistency of care there is
there.
So the first counsellor you seewill be the person to take you
through.
Jenny Reyner (32:00):
So actually, when we get the referral through,
everything is done.
The referral form is doneonline, otherwise we'll just be
inundated.
So everything is done onlineReferral.
They fill the referral form inand then it goes to our
counselling team.
So we have a lead counsellorwho will go through all of the
referrals, and then we have thenassessors, so the referrals
(32:24):
will be distributed to theassessors.
The assessors will then, within48 hours, call the young person
and then they will get as muchinformation to why they need the
service and then, once theyknow, then they will allocate
the counsellor.
The counsellor will then callthem and then between them they
will book their appointments,and they have six appointments
(32:47):
with one of the counsellors andthen it's up to the counsellor's
discretion to whether or notthey have more.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (32:55):
Jenny, how long ago did your daughter pass
and how old was she?
If you don't mind me askingwhen she passed?
Jenny Reyner (33:01):
So Lucy passed on the 5th of May 2012.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (33:06):
So that is 12 years ago and she was 22 at
the time you know the state ofyoung people's mental health and
I guess your daughter is notpart of the gen z generation
that are so affected by.
You know iphones and socialmedia and things like that, but
you know running a foundation.
(33:27):
I'm always really interested.
Do you have any insight as towhy mental health is getting so
much worse and in particular, somuch worse in the younger
generations?
Jenny Reyner (33:36):
absolutely so.
I think I can only tell you mybeliefs.
It's.
For me it's a melting pot.
It's a mixture of social media.
It's a mixture of internet.
It's a mixture of what they hearon tv, the climate, the wanting
(33:58):
of information, and I thinkthere's too much information
that young people can access andI don't think they fully
understand what they've taken in.
I know that young people whenthey have like an ailment, they
will Google it and then theywill see the worst case scenario
and think that they're dying.
(34:19):
They will google it and thenthey will see the worst cases
are and think that they're dying.
So they can catastrophize stuff.
And because of how the brainworks for young people, there
are certain ages, when they'rein adolescent, where the brain
will over dramatize things andthings can seem 10 times bigger
than they actually are.
So so it is a mixture ofhormones, about the brain
(34:42):
developing, about society,social media, internet, the need
for perfection, looking atother people on social media who
they want to aspire to, whoaren't necessarily the best role
models.
So it's a mixture of everythingthat really plays on young
people's minds and we are havingchildren as young as six
(35:07):
self-harming with eatingdisorders and massive social
anxiety and separation anxiety,and I think that's off of the
back of the pandemic and thathas something to play with it as
well.
Andy Esam (35:22):
And would you say, there's still a stigma
surrounding mental health, orhave we made good strides in
that space?
Jenny Reyner (35:28):
No, there's still a stigma.
There's still a stigma aroundmental health.
I think people are stillfrightened to say how they're
feeling or to even tell somebodythat they're feeling suicidal
because of the stigma.
I think we've got better at it.
I think we've got better attalking about it and around it,
but I think it still affectspeople in actually saying that
(35:51):
I'm feeling suicidal or I feelanxious or I am depressed.
I think there's still a lot ofmasking that is going on.
Andy Esam (36:02):
So have you kind of come up against challenges for
your foundation?
It sounds like you've doneamazingly well, but has there
been any kind of I don't knowdifficulties in advocating
mental health care?
Jenny Reyner (36:13):
The difficulties that we really have is the
amount of people that want toaccess our service to the amount
of funding that we have.
So we, if we don't want to getto a stage where we have a
waiting list, so we have toconstantly fundraise and, for
(36:36):
example, this year we've done itin excess of 30 fundraising
events just to keep the moneycoming in.
See, I've got hiccups, themoney coming in.
So it's that is always achallenge and we're not a really
big team, which means that allof the staff are stretched to
maximum capacity.
(36:57):
So we're always mindful aboutour own mental health and our
own well-being, because we canhave burnout very quickly
because, if you can imagine theservices that we're providing
and I've only talked to youabout the counselling service,
but we also have supportservices for men, support
services for women, we run asuicide bereavement service and
(37:22):
we run a robust schools programwhere we go into schools and we
train up teachers, we train upcolleges and universities and
lecturers.
We also do workshops for thestudents and we go in as early
as primary age five, six, sevenyear olds.
So you know, for us we do quitea lot of proactive work and
(37:45):
prevention work, because we feelthat if we can get children
young enough to be able toaccess their feelings and to
understand what those feelingsare for them and to let them
come to the surface instead ofburying it, then we can get them
earlier and they can be muchmore resilient in understanding
(38:06):
and finding the tools that theyneed to support themselves.
Because I feel that we've lostthe resilience during the
pandemic stages in the gen z ageand the generation alpha yeah,
absolutely.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (38:21):
I like the name you've got that robustness
, because I think you know ifyou go into schools and be like
we're going to teach younon-anxiety, how not to be
depressed, you're just creatingpeople about am I depressed, am
I, do I have anxiety, do I havea problem?
But if you're teachingrobustness, that's, you know,
sort of a positive direction.
I did see in in your faqs acomment on no shows and this is
(38:44):
something that sort of bothersme.
It's a real challenge I have islike when you're dealing with
people who are really strugglingand you're showing up for them
and giving them your time andthen they, you know, cancel at
the last minute, don't show up.
How do you deal with thatfrustration of someone who's
just not willing to helpthemselves?
Jenny Reyner (39:03):
yeah, that is always.
That is a massive frustrationfor us, as well as it being a
financial impact for us.
Um, it is really frustratingwhen our counselors phone, email
, text somebody before theirappointments and they still
don't turn up.
And you know, we have to havelike rules in place where if
(39:25):
somebody doesn't show up twicethen we have to take them off
the books because obviouslythere aren't going to be other
people that need that service.
So we have to kind of like sayto them if you don't turn up for
your next one, then we're goingto have to take you off, which
is unfortunate because theyengage with us, because they're
(39:46):
struggling with their mentalhealth.
But if they're not showing up,how are we supposed to support
them?
How are we supposed to helpthem?
Dr. Richard L. Blake (39:54):
I think it is one of the hardest things in
life is this to just letsomeone go.
You know, as you said, you knowburnout is really a real thing
in mental health services.
I think psychotherapists haveone of the highest suicide rates
themselves of any professionbecause it is such a taxing
thing.
And, yeah, when you really wantto help someone, you know a
family member and they won'thelp themselves.
(40:15):
Just having to just let go andjust be like, well, you know,
I've done all I can is it's abrutal thing and you know, maybe
it is.
It's quite.
Some people might think it'scruel, but I think sometimes
fear of insanity, you have tojust accept that some people are
beyond your help.
And I don't want to use theword lost cause, but that's the
(40:37):
one that's popping into my headand that's it's really sad but
there's a lot of factors to thatas well.
Jenny Reyner (40:43):
You have parents who fill in the referral form
for that young person and theyhaven't really had the consent
of the young person and sothey'll book the appointment for
for that person and the personwon't show up.
And then the mum will call usand the person won't show up.
And then the mum will call usand say, well, did so-and-so,
make their appointment and wewere like, no, they didn't show.
(41:05):
And then she'll go back and say, well, can we do it again next
week.
But actually when we contactthe young person and say, why
did you not, they will say, well, my mum booked it, I didn't
agree to that.
But some of it is because theyoung person hasn't actually
agrees to to the counselingsessions.
The parents want them to haveit.
(41:26):
So that's why we have to say to, we have to say to the parents
is there consent from your youngperson?
Andy Esam (41:36):
I had a question, jenny.
Around, I suppose, like widercommunities and and families,
how do they better supportpeople with, you know,
struggling with mental healthmaybe, how do they stay vigilant
and alive to to people who arestruggling, perhaps?
Jenny Reyner (41:52):
yeah.
So it's really difficultbecause when you have a young
person that is struggling withtheir mental health within the
family setting, it can cause alot of disharmony and atmosphere
within the household and it canlead to parents also having
(42:14):
mental health issues themselvesbecause they're constantly
walking on eggshells, constantlytrying to gauge how their young
person is feeling.
What mood are they going towake up in this morning?
Are they going to be in a goodmood or are they going to be in
an aggy mood where they're notgoing to listen to anything that
you have to say?
Are they going to be aggressivetowards you?
(42:36):
So it's very difficultsometimes for parents and
siblings to be in a householdwith somebody who's struggling
with their mental health.
What I say to families is tobuild yourself up, get the
support around you as well, sothat your mental health is in a
(42:58):
good place to support your youngperson.
Get yourself clued up aboutmental health signs and symptoms
.
Put yourself on a mental healthfirst aid course.
Make sure you understand thesigns and symptoms of what that
looks like so that you can catchit quickly enough.
(43:19):
So if you have a young, forexample, if you have a young
person that is thinking ofsuicide.
There are certain questionsthat you can ask to find out
whether or not they are, and oneof them is to ask that person
directly are you suicidal?
We sometimes think that if youask that question then that
(43:40):
person will go and do it.
But actually that is not thecase.
Somebody who is suicidal and isthinking of ending their life
want to tell someone.
The whole point of it beingsecreted weighs heavy on them.
Being secreted weighs heavy onthem and they think that if I
(44:03):
say it I'm going to really upsetsomebody, so that they kind of
keep it close to the chest.
But if someone outrightly saysare you suicidal, it's almost
like a relief for them to say,yes, I am.
And then the question would behave you got a plan?
And if they say no, then youknow you need to get your young
(44:24):
person some help to the GP or tosome counselling.
If that person says, yes, I do,I have a plan, then you say,
well, what's the the plan?
And they will tell you.
Then you know they got a plan,they know how they're going to
do it.
We now need to take evasiveaction and get them to either a
(44:48):
and e or to the gp for areferral to psychiatrist,
because that is serious yeah,those questions are vital.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (44:59):
Yeah, absolutely yeah, and that's
interesting.
You say the how a child'smental health can affect a
parent's mental health.
I know there's a lot ofresearch about how a parent's
mental health affects a child.
You know there's the adversechildhood events.
You know it's like one of thebest predictors of addiction in
children when they're adults.
And one of them of thosepredict is did one of your
(45:20):
parents have mental healthissues?
But I wonder if it's a linearrelationship there.
Jenny Reyner (45:27):
It's food for thought.
Honestly, it's so complexbecause you know you have
parents who are highly anxiousand they teach their children to
be anxious children, you know,and then anxious children become
anxious adults and so that getspassed down.
So, you know, I know a youngperson who grandfather took
(45:50):
their life and then the fathertook their life and they've
tried taking their life, so it'sthree generations of learnt
behaviour.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (46:01):
Yeah, there's this kind of contagion
about it.
Isn't there the same withself-harm, I believe?
Jenny Reyner (46:06):
but it's about education and it's about
understanding about.
What does that look like?
What do I need to breakpatterns?
What do I need to change adynamic?
So it's about learning aboutyourself, and I think that is
the key is about learning aboutyourself, learning about your
uniqueness, and what is it thatI need to support my physical
(46:30):
and my mental health?
What tools do I need?
Really important incredibleadvice.
Andy Esam (46:38):
Thank you so much, jenny.
Yeah, it's.
I feel you've been speaking tome like directly, heart to heart
for this entire time.
It's been amazing.
Could you talk a bit more aboutum, any future goals or
upcoming projects for thefoundation?
Jenny Reyner (46:52):
yeah, I can.
So I have a vision that we canbuild a centre and it's a
wellbeing centre which bridgesthe gap from when a person goes
(47:13):
to their GP and when there is amassive waiting list to getting
seen by a professional.
And this wellbeing centre willhave everything in it to look at
that person holistically, bothphysically and mentally, and a
(47:36):
place where they can trydifferent techniques to build
their own toolkit.
And that's what I want.
I want a person to come to usin the Wellbeing Centre and
either try trauma therapy, emdr,cbt, hypnotherapy, normal
(48:00):
clinical stuff, see a gp, speakto a psychiatrist, mental health
nurse, do a bit of meditation,do yoga if they want it, you
know everything that they canart therapy, music therapy,
whatever it is that will enablethem to find the resources
within themselves.
(48:21):
So when they're having a lowmood, they can pull on things.
Oh, I tried that and that workedfor me.
Let me do that again.
So to have like a whole toolkitthat they can pull on.
If this isn't working, I cantry this.
If this isn't working, I cantry this, because I know I've
tried it and it has worked forme, because not one cat fits all
(48:43):
.
We're so different, so diverseyeah, absolutely.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (48:48):
I think, thinking about the misdiagnosis
of lucy, I expect there probablyare people who just have
depression because of themedication they're on, because
of their contraceptive pill, andit's just there's so many
factors, so many variables and,yeah, it's such a difficult
thing, but the fact that you'retrying to address all those
different causes of mentalillness I think is is the right
(49:10):
way to go about it.
And then you have some eventsI'm going to be a part of, uh,
one of your events, jenny I'mexcited about that.
Can you tell our listeners a bitabout more about that?
Jenny Reyner (49:23):
so medication in mental health began about four
or five years ago, so it startedoff.
We did like an event called cananyone hear me, and can anyone
hear me was a live event inLondon where we invited young
people to talk about theirmental health journey.
(49:45):
And what we did we invitedclinicians, counsellors,
therapists, school teachers,senco teachers anyone that dealt
with young people who struggledwith their mental health in
whatever setting.
That would be be to come andlisten to their experiences and
(50:05):
to really just have aconversation around what can we
do better for these young people?
And that, for me, was soinspiring.
People walked away and startedthings on their own projects
that are now doing so well fromthat platform.
But I just listened to youngpeople's inspirational stories
(50:28):
somebody who'd been in thefacility for eating disorder,
what they wished the people haddone to support them, how they
could have done better.
Somebody who was in a facilityfor end of life what they wish
somebody would have done forthem, for their parent who was
struggling, a carer, what theywished somebody would do to help
(50:51):
them support a parent or achild who was, you know,
struggling with their mentalhealth all different scenarios
that we could put in front ofpeople so they could hear
firsthand people's experiences,young people's experiences of
life, and to make a change andto have a conversation.
(51:13):
And for me that was great.
And then we kind of then hadpeople talking about being in
mental health institutes and howthey were treated.
And then we kind of then hadpeople talking about being in
mental health institutes and howthey were treated.
And then we thought, ok, let'sdo a new series around
medication and mental health andhow that affects the body and
(51:35):
what we can do.
So then we again we had peoplewith lived experience, and this
wasn't just for young people.
Again we had people with livedexperience, and this wasn't just
for young people, it was foreverybody, because GPs regularly
give out medication and nobodyever questions is that the right
medication for me?
(51:56):
I don't have a diagnosis, so whyare you giving me this
medication?
Some people have been onmedication for years 10 years
plus and I've never questionedwhy have I never had a review of
my meds?
Why am I still on the samedosage?
Or why am I given more?
Because my body's got used tothe dose that I'm on?
(52:17):
Why have you never reviewedthat?
And so I wanted to give peoplejust an inkling into.
You have the right to askquestions about what you're
putting in your body.
Do you know what thecontraindications are for the
meds that you are on and peopledidn't know?
(52:38):
And did you know that somemedications make you feel
suicidal when you change medsand they didn't know?
And did you know that somemedications make you feel
suicidal when you change medsand they didn't know?
So ask more questions aroundyour mental health.
So these are the things that wewanted to do, and so we then did
different variations of thatand this year we're doing it on
(53:01):
men's mental health.
We want to look particularlyaround testosterone, because we
know that low testosterone canbring on poor mental health and
it has a knock-on effect oneverything else Sleep, how you
feel about yourself, yourmotivation, your sex drive,
(53:27):
everything.
So we wanted to bring that tothe forefront because you know,
ryan parr, who did something forour men's group, talked about
men's mental health, spoke abouttestosterone and the things
that he was saying resonatedwith our men and off the back of
(53:49):
it, they all went and got theirtestosterone tested and a few
of them had low testosterone and, off the back of it, are doing
really well.
Now how many other men don'tknow this information that
testosterone can play a massivepart in men's hormones and
mental health and physicalhealth.
Andy Esam (54:12):
It's a conversation to be had yeah, absolutely we
actually had ryan park on hereand he was.
He was great in terms of therevelations he gave surrounding
testosterone.
Jenny Reyner (54:24):
Why don't GPs tell you this information?
Why don't they test you for itas a regular thing?
I don't get it.
Andy Esam (54:34):
I'm really excited by your event as well, about
medication, because my mum, whenshe was struggling with
depression depression was onlithium for about 20 years and
ended up almost having totalkidney failure, to the point
which had to come off it.
And then, when she had anotherserious bout of depression, the
meds didn't seem to be doinganything.
We rarely reviewed such erraticbehavior and you just sort of
(54:55):
thought that there's got to besomething in this, because it's
not it.
The medication was doingnothing as far as I'm concerned.
Jenny Reyner (55:02):
So yeah, had had got used to it yeah, no.
Andy Esam (55:09):
Well, those events sound absolutely amazing and
will save lives, so yes, goodluck to you.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (55:15):
And they're november 17th.
Is that the no?
Jenny Reyner (55:19):
it's the 21st of November 21st of November.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (55:21):
Sorry, I'll be there on both days.
No, I'll be there on the 21st.
Andy Esam (55:26):
Thanks so much for giving us your time today, Jenny
, and for talking so openly.
Really really appreciate it,and I couldn't speak for the
first 10 minutes, but that wasjust because it was so touching.
Jenny Reyner (55:38):
I was really moved by what you're saying.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (55:39):
Thank you, yeah, thank you so much thank
you for inviting me on yourpodcast well, it's great to have
you welcome back listener.
We hope you enjoyed thatinterview with jenny.
We hope you were just touchedand moved and hopefully inspired
(56:00):
and given some hope for thefuture, given what people like
Jenny are doing taking action.
Andy Esam (56:08):
Yeah, seriously, seriously inspiring lady and has
been recognized for it.
So maybe we should end on thepositive of her accolades Rich,
if you want to rattle throughthem.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (56:20):
Yeah, well , we just took these from her
website, but she has receivedthe british citizens award for
service to the community,regional finalists for pride of
britain award, british citizensaward certificate of merit and
the mayor's annual volunteersaward, so it's great to see that
she's being recognized becauseshe is having a big impact.
(56:41):
I think she's mentionedthousands of families that have
been supported by thisfoundation and long may it
continue and I believe they doaccept donations.
They do look for support, so gocheck out the Lucy Rayner
Foundation One if you needsupport for your mental health
(57:02):
and you're in the Surrey area,or if you want to provide some
support.
I'm sure they would be mostgrateful for that.
Andy Esam (57:10):
I absolutely loved Jenny's vision of the future as
well, with all of that under oneroof, the different therapy
types and the different ways inwhich you can improve your
mental health all under one roof.
That sounds like such anamazing thing, and I'm sure
she'll do it.
And there's many more accoladesto come, no doubt no doubt.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (57:32):
All right.
Well.
Thank at andy sam, at richard lblakecom, at verbeth geek on
instagram.
Yes, all right.
Well, thank you, listener.
(57:54):
We hope you enjoyed the episodeand we will see you next time.
Take care, bye.
Welcome, listener.
I think this episode isprobably notable for how it made
me feel for the first 10minutes, which was incredibly
emotional, to the point where Icouldn't say anything.
Really, it was just so touching.
We're speaking to a lovely ladycalled Jenny Rayner who has set
(00:21):
up the lucy rainer foundationin memory of her daughter, um,
you know, uh, jenny rich.
What, yeah, talk to us about?
Dr. Richard L. Blake (00:32):
her, yeah, so jenny's doing some
impressive and inspiring thingsin the world of mental health
inspired by tragedy in her ownlife that she will tell you
about in the episode and she hasset up this foundation to deal
(00:55):
with a lot of the inadequaciesof the current mental health
service that we speak aboutquite a lot on this podcast and
we're going to talk about that.
We're going to talk aboutsuicide, so sort of trigger
warnings there, if that'ssomething you need, or we are
going to be speaking about thevery serious matter of suicide
and grief and losing familymembers and how to spot the
(01:16):
signs of someone who's in avulnerable position, how to
speak to them, how to get themthe help they need yeah and um.
Andy Esam (01:26):
I think jenny speaks with such authenticity and
knowledge.
I mean, this event happened toher in 2012 and, um, since then,
you cannot imagine what she hasdone.
So it's there's there's hope,as well as um the despair
listener.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (01:42):
Do you love what you're hearing?
If so, drop us a like, shareyour favorite episode with
friends and help us grow byleaving a review wherever you
get your podcasts.
Your support means the world tous and helps keep the
conversation going.
So tune in, follow like and,jenny, welcome to the pod.
(02:08):
Can you tell us what is thestory behind why you started a
foundation to help preventsuicide?
Jenny Reyner (02:16):
okay.
So I'm Jenny Rayner.
I have got three childrenmarried and my middle daughter,
lucy, always struggled with hermental health from like a really
young age, and we just assumedthat's how she was, and so she
(02:37):
grew up having mood swings andwe thought were just tantrums,
but she had problems regulatingher emotions.
So back in 2012, she worked fora company called PSA Finance
Peugeot and they did financingfor cars and she was their it
(02:59):
girl.
She was on all of theirpromotional materials as their
customer service frontlineperson.
They promoted her and thenwithin a week, the whole company
relocated to Coventry and madeher redundant.
So at the same time, she boughtherself a new car.
Therefore, she was thinking howam I going to pay for my car?
(03:23):
And she also split up with herboyfriend the night before, and
that was done all on socialmedia.
And that night I just got aphone call saying that is Lucy,
okay, from one of her friendsthat she'd broken up with her
boyfriend.
And so I checked in on her andI just said have you split up
(03:44):
with your boy?
She'd been seeing him for abouta year and a bit and she said,
yeah, we've broken up.
And it was done on Facebook.
So her status was single and soeverybody was starting to text
her and saying are you and yourpartner, have you split up?
And I I think that again put alot of pressure on her.
(04:05):
The following day we weresupposed to be going to my other
daughter who was at uni.
She'd just finished her firstyear, sat her exams and we were
really excited.
We're going to take her out fordinner to say congratulations.
But we also knew that Lucy hadbeen crying all night and we
kind of said to her out with us,just get away from the house.
(04:27):
And she was like no, I justwant to be on my own, just leave
me, I'll be okay.
And we just thought, okay, well, she's gone for a breakup,
maybe we'll just leave her tokind of like have some time to
herself and then when we getback we'll take her out for
dinner.
And so we set off and it waslike an hour and a half's drive
(04:48):
to where we were going to inLondon and we got to my
daughter's university.
We kind of like allcongratulating her and we're
asking about she was askingabout Lucy and we just said that
she'd just broken up with herboyfriend.
She's a bit down, yeah, butwhen we come back we'll cheer
her up.
So we all went out for dinner,we sat down, we ordered and just
(05:08):
got a phone call.
And the phone call was like areall your girls with you?
And my husband was like, no,well, they found a young girl at
the back of our house and ourhouse backs onto some woodlands
where the public walk.
They walk their dogs and theythey meander around just walking
(05:29):
through the park.
And we said no, they found ayoung girl.
She was found by a dog walkerand she'd hung herself at the
back of our house.
And do we need to come back?
Because the young girl wasmixed race.
Obviously my husband isCaucasian and I'm ethnic black.
(05:51):
And we just thought, oh my god.
My husband was like, get up,let's go.
And I was like, no, that's not,it's not her.
She would never do that to us.
She'd never spoken about, youknow, wanting to take her life.
So I don't think it's her.
(06:11):
But my husband was adamant Jen,we've got to go, we've got to
go.
She was in a state the nightbefore so it could be her.
And I was in utter denial.
I was like, even on the wayback my husband was driving like
a mad person just to get homewith my other two girls in the
back and they were phoningeverybody that lived near us to
go and check on Lucy and theywere coming back and saying that
(06:33):
her car was there.
So she was in the house andStuart was like no.
My husband was like no, we'regoing back.
We've got to go back and findout what's going on.
I, it's her.
So when we got back to our roadthere was like police cars,
ambulance, there was like it wasall cordoned off like in a
(06:54):
crime scene and I was just intotal shock at what we arrived
to.
My husband was like reallyfrantic and he had said we think
it's your daughter and it wasthe most awful shock that we
(07:16):
could have like arrived to.
My husband was angry.
We wanted to get into the house.
They wouldn't let us get in thehouse because that had now
become something of like a crimescene, because they needed to
find out what actually happened.
So we couldn't go in.
We couldn't see.
Then one of the policemen cameup to us and said your
daughter's been taken to EastSurrey Hospital.
(07:37):
There is a heartbeat and youneed to get down there.
So we all got into the policecar and we rushed down to East
Surrey Hospital where we sat inthe family's room while they
were working on my daughter andwe just sat and prayed so hard
that she'd be OK.
And then after about 45 minutesthe doctor came in and just
(08:02):
basically said we're reallysorry.
Every time they stopped CPR,her heart failed and there was
nothing that they could do tosustain her life.
That was it for us.
You know, the whole, our wholeworld just changed really from
that moment.
It was horrendous.
It took a long time for us tocome back from it and it was
(08:27):
done so publicly it was.
It was where everybody waswalking, so the newspaper got
wind of it and they were like onour tails and we're on the
front page of the summary mirror.
It was.
It was.
It was really awful time,really bad time.
I mean, yeah, good yeah.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (08:43):
Good my God.
Yeah, it's such an awful story,Jenny.
I feel very emotional justhearing it.
I can't imagine how emotionalit must be retelling it.
Jenny Reyner (08:56):
The ripple effect of something like that.
It not only affects immediatefamily, but it affected Lucy's
closest friends and she belongedto like a big group of girls
about 10 of them and none ofthem knew that she was
struggling neither.
So when the news came out thatshe had passed, oh, the fallout
(09:17):
for them was horrendous as well.
A lot of them came to drink andhad like really bad depression
that we had to support them with.
So when Lucy passed actuallywhen looking back she had gone
to her GP like two weeks beforeand she had told them that she
(09:38):
was really struggling with hermental health and they just
changed her contraceptive pill.
They said it was hormonal.
Now we knew it wasn't.
When she came back and saidI've just got new contraceptive
pills, we knew it was more thanjust her hormones.
We knew she struggled toregulate her emotions.
There is bipolar in myhusband's side of the family.
(10:01):
There's depression on my sideof the family, so you know it
could have been something thatwas hereditary.
So we knew something wasn'tright.
We did know, but we just didn'tknow how to support her.
We didn't have enoughinformation about mental health
to support her in the right way.
So when she'd gone to the GPand they changed her
(10:22):
contraceptive.
We just thought maybe that'swhat it was.
So when she passed we did amemorial for her and we raised
£15,000.
And we took that money to theGP surgery and we kind of said,
look, we've raised some money,here's £15,000.
(10:42):
Can we please have like acounsellor or even like a
psychiatric nurse to be based atour surgery?
And they said that we'vealready got that and I was like,
well, hang on a second then whydidn't you refer my daughter
when she told you she wasstruggling with her mental
health?
(11:02):
And they said that she didn'tpresent at someone that looked
depressed.
So I was like, well, hang on asecond.
What does depression look like?
Got really angry and I saiddepression doesn't have a gender
.
Depression doesn't have asocial standing.
(11:24):
It doesn't have a gender.
Depression doesn't have asocial standing.
It doesn't have a color.
It doesn't have an appearance.
Somebody can mask and somepeople, like Lucy, mask really
well.
Lucy was the life and son of aparty.
All her friends came to herwith their problems.
She was was very kind.
(11:46):
She always helped people thatwas in trouble.
We had letters coming throughour door saying how Lucy had
supported an elderly personbecause he'd fallen in the
street.
She'd taken him back to hishouse to give him a cup of tea,
phoned his daughter to come tothe house.
She was always doing acts ofkindness for people.
That's not what depression is.
(12:11):
Depression is something that'sinside you.
It's something that you can'tshare readily.
It's a feeling, it's an emotion, it's mental ill health.
You can't physically see thatin a person unless they actually
tell you.
So we kind of thought oh my God, they couldn't see it.
(12:35):
And these are people that aresupposed to be trained to be
able to pick up these things.
So we kind of thought well,actually, how many other young
people slip through that net whopresent to a GP and say I'm
really struggling with otherexams or whatever it is that
they come to the GP with fortheir depression or anxiety or
(12:58):
low mood?
When they go to the GP and theGP says well, it's a hormonal
thing.
How many young people slipthrough that net and don't get
seen and don't get heard andwalk away thinking no one can
help me.
The GP can, who can help me?
And in that moment us as afamily thought oh my god, I
(13:20):
don't want that to happen toanother young person.
So a year to the day of Lucy'spassing, we started our charity
in her name and now we seesomething like last year.
We saw 866 young people and putthem through our counselling
service and we have 50counsellors with no waiting list
(13:43):
.
Wow, and we're really, reallypleased to say that.
Andy Esam (13:48):
Don't miss it.
What is the name of thefoundation?
Jenny Reyner (13:51):
It's the Lucy Rayner Foundation.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (13:55):
We will be sure to link in that in show
notes.
But yeah, what you share there,jenny, is so true, very similar
to my experience.
I had depression for I don'tknow, 14, 15 years, a couple of
suicide attempts from myself,and when I really did my first
suicide attempt, the responsewas I can't believe you know
(14:16):
this happened.
I had no idea.
So many people just thought youknow, I was just a bit down or
you know I've just a bit low inenergy.
I was very good at masking it,just like you kind of have to be
to get along in society.
And I did reach out for help acouple of times and people were
just sort of like, yeah, okay,have you tried?
You know?
Just like, just really sort ofyou know, good, good meaning
(14:39):
advice, but not really what Imeant.
Like for me to just to speaklike I'm thinking about
committing suicide was just likeI kind of whispered it almost,
but it was a, it was a huge likeeffort to say that to someone.
And then when nothing reallyhappened, I was like, well, if
I've made all this effort toshare it with, I shared it with
a couple of people and thennothing had happened.
(15:00):
I was like, well, there's nohope for me, you know, so I may
as well just give up.
Um, so, and you know, I am asort of a trained mental health
practitioner as well in someregards.
You know phd in psychology andstudy psychotherapy.
The training to become apsychotherapist is incredibly
rigorous.
It is really hard.
Most people don't make it.
(15:20):
In terms like 50 of the peopleon my course from the first year
dropped out because to become apsychotherapist is really tough
.
And that just just shows youlike even these people who have
really tough training, like highacademic standards at
university, they still can'tspot someone who is on the verge
of suicide.
It just, yeah, it just reallyhighlights how tricky mental
(15:41):
health is.
And yeah, um, but, andy, youwant to, you want?
Andy Esam (15:46):
to share something I was just going to say.
So, just so I'm completelyclear, on the lucy reina
foundation, lucy RainerFoundation.
This is anyone of up to 18who's feeling it.
Jenny Reyner (15:55):
No, it's from 14 years of age to 39 years of age,
and we have to have obviously acategory, otherwise we'll just
run out of money.
Of course we have like an agerange, but we kind of feel that
14 to 39 is where life reallyhappens, where the transitioning
periods happen.
So you're going through puberty, you have exams, you go to
(16:18):
university, you have exams, youget a job, you get into
relationships, you have a family, you get married, you buy a
house, you have kids, and somuch happens in that timeframe
that people really struggle withtheir mental health, because
change some people just can'tdeal with change and when a lot
(16:39):
of change happens puts a lot ofstress on you.
So we kind of want to be thereto support people that when
they're going through those bigchanges yeah, absolutely yeah,
change.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (16:51):
I mean age 14 was when my depression
started as well.
So I'm glad to hear you'rehelping people that young.
But, ginny, I just want to goback to your experience.
So you mentioned you were numbthere.
Your husband was angry.
What else was going on for you?
Jenny Reyner (17:19):
Gosh.
For me, when you lose somebodyby suicide, the emotions that
you feel are so complex thatit's really hard to truly say
that there's a linear way thatyou have to grieve for somebody
that you lose.
So for me, I can only speakabout me.
For me, it was denial to beginwith.
I'm quite a spiritual person,so I do believe that we go to
(17:41):
somewhere else when we pass.
I was first in denial.
Then I just wanted to be inLucy's space.
Although I wanted to be in herspace, I couldn't bear to hear
her voice.
I didn't want to see any videosof her because the pain was
(18:03):
just too much, and the pain is aphysical pain.
I couldn't eat, I couldn'tsleep, I couldn't do anything
really, and the only way that Icould get through the day was
just moment by moment and I hadto find something to focus on,
and the focus that I had wasfirst her funeral.
(18:24):
My husband wasn't any use to mebecause he just disintegrated.
He was really really emotionaland just couldn't articulate
anything.
He spent a lot of time in hisroom not wanting to speak to
anybody, just barely gettingthrough.
He had to go on antidepressantsFor me.
I just got focused.
(18:46):
What I call now is the doingphase.
The doing phase is to findanything and everything that I
could do to take my mind off thesubject or my feelings.
So I would go out off the walks, I would go and sit in the
cinema, sometimes on my own,just to get away from reality
and watch lots of Marvel filmswere my thing, just to be in a
(19:10):
different thought pattern, to bein a fantasy land, to not feel
what I'm feeling.
I focused on her funeral,choosing songs and what I think
she wanted with the girls.
I also started a projectbecause I knew I wasn't going to
go back to my old job.
(19:31):
I was trying to look at thingsthat I could do to kind of be
more present at home with my,the rest of my family.
I had a massive fear aboutlosing my other children as well
, because I know when someone,when you lose someone by suicide
, the actual reality of losingsomeone by suicide is real.
(19:51):
So I didn't want anything elseto happen to anyone else in my
family.
So I had an anxiety around that.
So I kept doing things for them, making sure they were all
right, making sure my husbandwas all right.
So I did a lot of doing.
And then, once Lucy's funeralhad gone, I worked, focused on
starting the charity andlearning a lot more about mental
(20:15):
health, because for me I didn'tknow enough, I wasn't able to
spot the signs.
I felt so much guilt aroundwhat if I had picked it up
earlier?
And there was a lot of what ifsand things that I could have
done, the things I should havedone, and I beat myself up about
that that I wasn't a good mumand if I knew my daughter enough
(20:36):
then I would have known, and Ididn't know.
She was really good at masking.
So, yeah, there was a the blowof my guilt.
So I had a mantra that was justbe kind to yourself.
(21:01):
Every time I had a randomthought or I was being angry at
myself or being angry at someoneelse for not understanding my
grief.
Because you know, once you havethe funeral, your friends and
family rally around you, sortsort of like in the early days.
But once the funeral is done,they all start falling away.
But you're still left with thatemptiness, that loss, that
(21:21):
heartache, and people just seemto feel that you should be over
it.
But a death by suicide takesages to even come to terms with
and it's not a getting oversomething, it's a getting
through it, and that gettingthrough takes years, absolute
years, and you never actuallylose that.
(21:45):
I kind of liken it to you know,like when you're on a track and
you've got this mountain that'sahead of you and you're carrying
like a really massive backpackthat is heavy and you're
climbing up this hill and thisbackpack is so heavy that it's
like almost dragging you downthe hill, but you're taking one
(22:08):
step at a time.
Eventually, you build muscle,you build the strength to carry
the backpack, and so, althoughthe weight is the same, you have
the ability to carry itstronger, you become more
resilient to it, and so it'sstill there, but you just carry
(22:32):
it better and if you look backat that grieving period, I mean
accepting that you probablynever stop grieving um, are
there any?
Andy Esam (22:41):
are there any tips that you would give?
I mean, you mentioned that youkind of threw yourselves in into
different spaces and you wentto see the marvel films and then
you just went into projects.
Any other advice you would give?
And being kind to yourselfseems like, yeah, the most
important for you.
But any other tips, advice youwould give and being kind to
yourself seems like yeah themost important for you, but any
other tips that you would giveperhaps so the other tips that I
(23:01):
would say is not to push awayyour emotions.
Jenny Reyner (23:05):
Some people will want to shut it down and not
want to feel what's coming up.
I'm saying you need to feeleverything.
Don't push things away becauseit will come back and it will
come back in with a vengeance.
So you have to allow yourfeelings to arise and you have
to acknowledge those feelings.
(23:26):
Yes, today I'm feeling reallyangry, and allow that anger to
come through.
If it means screaming at thetop of your voice, go to a top
of a hill and scream.
You know you're feeling reallysad and tearful.
Have a cry.
And if you find that you wantto cry and you can't bring that
(23:46):
up, maybe sit in front of atearful film or listen to songs
that will allow you to cry.
Know these are things you haveto help yourself with because it
is really really hard.
It is really hard.
So don't push your feelingsdown.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (24:04):
Allow them to come forward, because that's
the only way you will truly getthrough the pain of this and
come out the other side yeah, Ioften recommend that same
strategy, like watch a sad film,and because I think for some
people certainly people who'velearned to suppress their
emotions it can be like arelearning period of like where
(24:25):
you stop, you know whatever youinternalize as a child boys
don't cry.
Whatever you know, strongpeople don't show emotion.
There is a relearning periodthere.
I have used that technique manytimes.
It's almost like I can cry forsomeone else, like in a sad
movie, but then, once that dooris open, then I can cry for
(24:46):
myself.
And then you said you thought alot about what you could have
done differently.
I imagine there's a lot of sortof rumination and you said
you're beating yourself up.
Were there any conclusions?
You came to things you couldhave done different that you
might want to share with otherparents.
Jenny Reyner (25:03):
So Lucy left a note and I know that for some
they don't get the note, theydon't get the final thoughts of
that person that has passed, butwe, you know, we luckily she
left us a note on her laptop andin that note she exonerated
every single one of us.
She just said this is not aboutyou, this is about me, this is
(25:26):
about how I'm feeling and thatthis life is too hard.
And she was really sensitive toeverything.
This life was too hard for herand she just wanted out and that
we were not to blame ourselvesfor her.
She's saying that it's thekindest thing and she just and
she put it like I just want togo home, I want to return.
(25:47):
And so you know, I felt for me.
Although I felt for her, Ididn't take too much of the
blame.
(26:12):
After a while, when you exhaustyourself with all of that and
you realise there was nothingyou could have done, there
wasn't.
The decision was hers and itwas hers alone.
Nothing that I could have said,nothing that I would have done,
no ifs or buts would havechanged her decision.
(26:33):
It was her decision and herdecision alone.
And even if I had saved heronce once someone has tried to
take their life.
The likelihood of it happeningagain is going to happen and the
decision to stay is down tothem.
They have to have that will tostay, and lucy didn't and I'm
(27:01):
pleased with that.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (27:02):
I miss her dearly every day, but I've come
to peace with that now yeah,it's a painful realization that
you know, even as a parent, youcan't control.
You can't control anyone asmuch as you'd like to.
She was an adult, she was anadult, and an adult makes their
own decisions and you know Ikeep looking back like it'd like
to.
Jenny Reyner (27:16):
She was an adult.
She was an adult and an adultmakes their own decisions.
And you know, I keep lookingback.
I keep thinking I wish she wasthree again so I could tell her
what to do and keep her safe.
Andy Esam (27:28):
But once they're adults, you can't I was just
going to ask can we talk a bitmore about the good work of the
lucy reina foundation?
So what might it look like whensomeone comes to you?
Can you talk a bit about theprocess?
Dr. Richard L. Blake (27:42):
Sorry, Andy, before we go on to that,
just want to talk about theissues of the mental health.
What did you see that made youwant to start up a foundation?
Jenny Reyner (27:53):
So the first thing was the attitude of the doctors
.
She didn't present as someonethat was depressed.
That attitude in itself angeredme.
You know you can't just look atsomeone and assume that they're
okay when they're telling youthey're not.
She wasn't heard, she wasn'tseen and they didn't treat her
(28:15):
appropriately.
They misdiagnosed her.
They thought it was pneumoniaand it wasn't.
It was far more than that.
And they weren't treat herappropriately.
They misdiagnosed her.
They thought it was pneumoniaand it wasn't.
It was far more than that.
And they weren't prepared todelve deeper.
And I know doctors have a roughdeal and they have very little
time to see a person.
But when someone's saying Ineed help, I need support, I'm
feeling low.
What's the harm in referringthem to a talk-in therapy?
(28:39):
I'm feeling low.
What's the harm in referringthem to a talk in therapy?
You know?
So Lucy needs to talk tosomebody and share how she was
feeling, and that wasn't anoffer.
So that's what we wanted to doInitially.
We wanted to offer that serviceto any young person that was
struggling with their mentalhealth, and at 14, they can
self-refer.
(28:59):
They do not need an adult forthem to refer themselves, and it
also means that their parentscan refer on their behalf with
their consent.
It also means that GP can referto us as well on their behalf.
So anybody who is looking aftera young person and above can
(29:20):
self-refer to us.
And and that's what we thoughtwe wanted to do we wanted to
offer that service to anybody,any young person in surrey who
were struggling with theirmental health, and not to have a
waiting list, because it takesa lot, like you said, it takes a
lot for someone to even say I'mstruggling, that I'm having
(29:43):
suicidal thoughts, and so whenthey come to their GP, it takes
a lot of courage for somebodywho is really truly depressed to
say these words to a GP.
So we want to make sure thatwhen they come to us they're
seen very quickly.
We don't have a waiting list,which means that we are reactive
(30:03):
, so they can be seen straightaway, because we I know
personally of people who havegone to their GP and they have
told them there is a waitinglist of up to six months and
then that young person has saidcan no one help me?
And within days of thatappointment have ended up taking
(30:23):
their life, because once youreach the state of hopelessness,
there's no hope.
That's when the reality ofsomeone ending their life
becomes real yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (30:38):
And yeah, it reminds me of that statistic
from the Journal of AmericanMedicine.
A study showed that the thirdbiggest cause of death in the US
was iatrogenic illness, iemedical malpractice, which
includes misdiagnosis thatperhaps your daughter would go
under there.
And the medical system inAmerica, where I'm based, is the
(30:59):
subject of a lot of sort ofconspiracy theories and things
like that.
But when you find out the thirdleading cause of death in a
country is the medical system,it really raises a lot of
eyebrows and I expect it makesme quite angry, because the
medical system has such a adominance and a little bit of an
arrogance, like we know best.
You know I'm a doctor, are you?
(31:20):
You're not a doctor, yourproblems are hormonal or it's
just in your head and it leadsto, you know, tragedies like
this so a physical um buildingfor the lucy reina foundation,
or is some of it online?
Jenny Reyner (31:35):
no, it's online.
We do have a physical, aphysical headquarters where we
do training and we have ouroffices and so people can come
and see us.
Absolutely.
We have an open door policy andwe have some counselling rooms
in there as well where ourcounsellors can use the service
there.
Andy Esam (31:54):
And there's kind of a consistency of care there is
there.
So the first counsellor you seewill be the person to take you
through.
Jenny Reyner (32:00):
So actually, when we get the referral through,
everything is done.
The referral form is doneonline, otherwise we'll just be
inundated.
So everything is done onlineReferral.
They fill the referral form inand then it goes to our
counselling team.
So we have a lead counsellorwho will go through all of the
referrals, and then we have thenassessors, so the referrals
(32:24):
will be distributed to theassessors.
The assessors will then, within48 hours, call the young person
and then they will get as muchinformation to why they need the
service and then, once theyknow, then they will allocate
the counsellor.
The counsellor will then callthem and then between them they
will book their appointments,and they have six appointments
(32:47):
with one of the counsellors andthen it's up to the counsellor's
discretion to whether or notthey have more.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (32:55):
Jenny, how long ago did your daughter pass
and how old was she?
If you don't mind me askingwhen she passed?
Jenny Reyner (33:01):
So Lucy passed on the 5th of May 2012.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (33:06):
So that is 12 years ago and she was 22 at
the time you know the state ofyoung people's mental health and
I guess your daughter is notpart of the gen z generation
that are so affected by.
You know iphones and socialmedia and things like that, but
you know running a foundation.
(33:27):
I'm always really interested.
Do you have any insight as towhy mental health is getting so
much worse and in particular, somuch worse in the younger
generations?
Jenny Reyner (33:36):
absolutely so.
I think I can only tell you mybeliefs.
It's.
For me it's a melting pot.
It's a mixture of social media.
It's a mixture of internet.
It's a mixture of what they hearon tv, the climate, the wanting
(33:58):
of information, and I thinkthere's too much information
that young people can access andI don't think they fully
understand what they've taken in.
I know that young people whenthey have like an ailment, they
will Google it and then theywill see the worst case scenario
and think that they're dying.
(34:19):
They will google it and thenthey will see the worst cases
are and think that they're dying.
So they can catastrophize stuff.
And because of how the brainworks for young people, there
are certain ages, when they'rein adolescent, where the brain
will over dramatize things andthings can seem 10 times bigger
than they actually are.
So so it is a mixture ofhormones, about the brain
(34:42):
developing, about society,social media, internet, the need
for perfection, looking atother people on social media who
they want to aspire to, whoaren't necessarily the best role
models.
So it's a mixture of everythingthat really plays on young
people's minds and we are havingchildren as young as six
(35:07):
self-harming with eatingdisorders and massive social
anxiety and separation anxiety,and I think that's off of the
back of the pandemic and thathas something to play with it as
well.
Andy Esam (35:22):
And would you say, there's still a stigma
surrounding mental health, orhave we made good strides in
that space?
Jenny Reyner (35:28):
No, there's still a stigma.
There's still a stigma aroundmental health.
I think people are stillfrightened to say how they're
feeling or to even tell somebodythat they're feeling suicidal
because of the stigma.
I think we've got better at it.
I think we've got better attalking about it and around it,
but I think it still affectspeople in actually saying that
(35:51):
I'm feeling suicidal or I feelanxious or I am depressed.
I think there's still a lot ofmasking that is going on.
Andy Esam (36:02):
So have you kind of come up against challenges for
your foundation?
It sounds like you've doneamazingly well, but has there
been any kind of I don't knowdifficulties in advocating
mental health care?
Jenny Reyner (36:13):
The difficulties that we really have is the
amount of people that want toaccess our service to the amount
of funding that we have.
So we, if we don't want to getto a stage where we have a
waiting list, so we have toconstantly fundraise and, for
(36:36):
example, this year we've done itin excess of 30 fundraising
events just to keep the moneycoming in.
See, I've got hiccups, themoney coming in.
So it's that is always achallenge and we're not a really
big team, which means that allof the staff are stretched to
maximum capacity.
(36:57):
So we're always mindful aboutour own mental health and our
own well-being, because we canhave burnout very quickly
because, if you can imagine theservices that we're providing
and I've only talked to youabout the counselling service,
but we also have supportservices for men, support
services for women, we run asuicide bereavement service and
(37:22):
we run a robust schools programwhere we go into schools and we
train up teachers, we train upcolleges and universities and
lecturers.
We also do workshops for thestudents and we go in as early
as primary age five, six, sevenyear olds.
So you know, for us we do quitea lot of proactive work and
(37:45):
prevention work, because we feelthat if we can get children
young enough to be able toaccess their feelings and to
understand what those feelingsare for them and to let them
come to the surface instead ofburying it, then we can get them
earlier and they can be muchmore resilient in understanding
(38:06):
and finding the tools that theyneed to support themselves.
Because I feel that we've lostthe resilience during the
pandemic stages in the gen z ageand the generation alpha yeah,
absolutely.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (38:21):
I like the name you've got that robustness
, because I think you know ifyou go into schools and be like
we're going to teach younon-anxiety, how not to be
depressed, you're just creatingpeople about am I depressed, am
I, do I have anxiety, do I havea problem?
But if you're teachingrobustness, that's, you know,
sort of a positive direction.
I did see in in your faqs acomment on no shows and this is
(38:44):
something that sort of bothersme.
It's a real challenge I have islike when you're dealing with
people who are really strugglingand you're showing up for them
and giving them your time andthen they, you know, cancel at
the last minute, don't show up.
How do you deal with thatfrustration of someone who's
just not willing to helpthemselves?
Jenny Reyner (39:03):
yeah, that is always.
That is a massive frustrationfor us, as well as it being a
financial impact for us.
Um, it is really frustratingwhen our counselors phone, email
, text somebody before theirappointments and they still
don't turn up.
And you know, we have to havelike rules in place where if
(39:25):
somebody doesn't show up twicethen we have to take them off
the books because obviouslythere aren't going to be other
people that need that service.
So we have to kind of like sayto them if you don't turn up for
your next one, then we're goingto have to take you off, which
is unfortunate because theyengage with us, because they're
(39:46):
struggling with their mentalhealth.
But if they're not showing up,how are we supposed to support
them?
How are we supposed to helpthem?
Dr. Richard L. Blake (39:54):
I think it is one of the hardest things in
life is this to just letsomeone go.
You know, as you said, you knowburnout is really a real thing
in mental health services.
I think psychotherapists haveone of the highest suicide rates
themselves of any professionbecause it is such a taxing
thing.
And, yeah, when you really wantto help someone, you know a
family member and they won'thelp themselves.
(40:15):
Just having to just let go andjust be like, well, you know,
I've done all I can is it's abrutal thing and you know, maybe
it is.
It's quite.
Some people might think it'scruel, but I think sometimes
fear of insanity, you have tojust accept that some people are
beyond your help.
And I don't want to use theword lost cause, but that's the
(40:37):
one that's popping into my headand that's it's really sad but
there's a lot of factors to thatas well.
Jenny Reyner (40:43):
You have parents who fill in the referral form
for that young person and theyhaven't really had the consent
of the young person and sothey'll book the appointment for
for that person and the personwon't show up.
And then the mum will call usand the person won't show up.
And then the mum will call usand say, well, did so-and-so,
make their appointment and wewere like, no, they didn't show.
(41:05):
And then she'll go back and say, well, can we do it again next
week.
But actually when we contactthe young person and say, why
did you not, they will say, well, my mum booked it, I didn't
agree to that.
But some of it is because theyoung person hasn't actually
agrees to to the counselingsessions.
The parents want them to haveit.
(41:26):
So that's why we have to say to, we have to say to the parents
is there consent from your youngperson?
Andy Esam (41:36):
I had a question, jenny.
Around, I suppose, like widercommunities and and families,
how do they better supportpeople with, you know,
struggling with mental healthmaybe, how do they stay vigilant
and alive to to people who arestruggling, perhaps?
Jenny Reyner (41:52):
yeah.
So it's really difficultbecause when you have a young
person that is struggling withtheir mental health within the
family setting, it can cause alot of disharmony and atmosphere
within the household and it canlead to parents also having
(42:14):
mental health issues themselvesbecause they're constantly
walking on eggshells, constantlytrying to gauge how their young
person is feeling.
What mood are they going towake up in this morning?
Are they going to be in a goodmood or are they going to be in
an aggy mood where they're notgoing to listen to anything that
you have to say?
Are they going to be aggressivetowards you?
(42:36):
So it's very difficultsometimes for parents and
siblings to be in a householdwith somebody who's struggling
with their mental health.
What I say to families is tobuild yourself up, get the
support around you as well, sothat your mental health is in a
(42:58):
good place to support your youngperson.
Get yourself clued up aboutmental health signs and symptoms
.
Put yourself on a mental healthfirst aid course.
Make sure you understand thesigns and symptoms of what that
looks like so that you can catchit quickly enough.
(43:19):
So if you have a young, forexample, if you have a young
person that is thinking ofsuicide.
There are certain questionsthat you can ask to find out
whether or not they are, and oneof them is to ask that person
directly are you suicidal?
We sometimes think that if youask that question then that
(43:40):
person will go and do it.
But actually that is not thecase.
Somebody who is suicidal and isthinking of ending their life
want to tell someone.
The whole point of it beingsecreted weighs heavy on them.
Being secreted weighs heavy onthem and they think that if I
(44:03):
say it I'm going to really upsetsomebody, so that they kind of
keep it close to the chest.
But if someone outrightly saysare you suicidal, it's almost
like a relief for them to say,yes, I am.
And then the question would behave you got a plan?
And if they say no, then youknow you need to get your young
(44:24):
person some help to the GP or tosome counselling.
If that person says, yes, I do,I have a plan, then you say,
well, what's the the plan?
And they will tell you.
Then you know they got a plan,they know how they're going to
do it.
We now need to take evasiveaction and get them to either a
(44:48):
and e or to the gp for areferral to psychiatrist,
because that is serious yeah,those questions are vital.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (44:59):
Yeah, absolutely yeah, and that's
interesting.
You say the how a child'smental health can affect a
parent's mental health.
I know there's a lot ofresearch about how a parent's
mental health affects a child.
You know there's the adversechildhood events.
You know it's like one of thebest predictors of addiction in
children when they're adults.
And one of them of thosepredict is did one of your
(45:20):
parents have mental healthissues?
But I wonder if it's a linearrelationship there.
Jenny Reyner (45:27):
It's food for thought.
Honestly, it's so complexbecause you know you have
parents who are highly anxiousand they teach their children to
be anxious children, you know,and then anxious children become
anxious adults and so that getspassed down.
So, you know, I know a youngperson who grandfather took
(45:50):
their life and then the fathertook their life and they've
tried taking their life, so it'sthree generations of learnt
behaviour.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (46:01):
Yeah, there's this kind of contagion
about it.
Isn't there the same withself-harm, I believe?
Jenny Reyner (46:06):
but it's about education and it's about
understanding about.
What does that look like?
What do I need to breakpatterns?
What do I need to change adynamic?
So it's about learning aboutyourself, and I think that is
the key is about learning aboutyourself, learning about your
uniqueness, and what is it thatI need to support my physical
(46:30):
and my mental health?
What tools do I need?
Really important incredibleadvice.
Andy Esam (46:38):
Thank you so much, jenny.
Yeah, it's.
I feel you've been speaking tome like directly, heart to heart
for this entire time.
It's been amazing.
Could you talk a bit more aboutum, any future goals or
upcoming projects for thefoundation?
Jenny Reyner (46:52):
yeah, I can.
So I have a vision that we canbuild a centre and it's a
wellbeing centre which bridgesthe gap from when a person goes
(47:13):
to their GP and when there is amassive waiting list to getting
seen by a professional.
And this wellbeing centre willhave everything in it to look at
that person holistically, bothphysically and mentally, and a
(47:36):
place where they can trydifferent techniques to build
their own toolkit.
And that's what I want.
I want a person to come to usin the Wellbeing Centre and
either try trauma therapy, emdr,cbt, hypnotherapy, normal
(48:00):
clinical stuff, see a gp, speakto a psychiatrist, mental health
nurse, do a bit of meditation,do yoga if they want it, you
know everything that they canart therapy, music therapy,
whatever it is that will enablethem to find the resources
within themselves.
(48:21):
So when they're having a lowmood, they can pull on things.
Oh, I tried that and that workedfor me.
Let me do that again.
So to have like a whole toolkitthat they can pull on.
If this isn't working, I cantry this.
If this isn't working, I cantry this, because I know I've
tried it and it has worked forme, because not one cat fits all
(48:43):
.
We're so different, so diverseyeah, absolutely.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (48:48):
I think, thinking about the misdiagnosis
of lucy, I expect there probablyare people who just have
depression because of themedication they're on, because
of their contraceptive pill, andit's just there's so many
factors, so many variables and,yeah, it's such a difficult
thing, but the fact that you'retrying to address all those
different causes of mentalillness I think is is the right
(49:10):
way to go about it.
And then you have some eventsI'm going to be a part of, uh,
one of your events, jenny I'mexcited about that.
Can you tell our listeners a bitabout more about that?
Jenny Reyner (49:23):
so medication in mental health began about four
or five years ago, so it startedoff.
We did like an event called cananyone hear me, and can anyone
hear me was a live event inLondon where we invited young
people to talk about theirmental health journey.
(49:45):
And what we did we invitedclinicians, counsellors,
therapists, school teachers,senco teachers anyone that dealt
with young people who struggledwith their mental health in
whatever setting.
That would be be to come andlisten to their experiences and
(50:05):
to really just have aconversation around what can we
do better for these young people?
And that, for me, was soinspiring.
People walked away and startedthings on their own projects
that are now doing so well fromthat platform.
But I just listened to youngpeople's inspirational stories
(50:28):
somebody who'd been in thefacility for eating disorder,
what they wished the people haddone to support them, how they
could have done better.
Somebody who was in a facilityfor end of life what they wish
somebody would have done forthem, for their parent who was
struggling, a carer, what theywished somebody would do to help
(50:51):
them support a parent or achild who was, you know,
struggling with their mentalhealth all different scenarios
that we could put in front ofpeople so they could hear
firsthand people's experiences,young people's experiences of
life, and to make a change andto have a conversation.
(51:13):
And for me that was great.
And then we kind of then hadpeople talking about being in
mental health institutes and howthey were treated.
And then we kind of then hadpeople talking about being in
mental health institutes and howthey were treated.
And then we thought, ok, let'sdo a new series around
medication and mental health andhow that affects the body and
(51:35):
what we can do.
So then we again we had peoplewith lived experience, and this
wasn't just for young people.
Again we had people with livedexperience, and this wasn't just
for young people, it was foreverybody, because GPs regularly
give out medication and nobodyever questions is that the right
medication for me?
(51:56):
I don't have a diagnosis, so whyare you giving me this
medication?
Some people have been onmedication for years 10 years
plus and I've never questionedwhy have I never had a review of
my meds?
Why am I still on the samedosage?
Or why am I given more?
Because my body's got used tothe dose that I'm on?
(52:17):
Why have you never reviewedthat?
And so I wanted to give peoplejust an inkling into.
You have the right to askquestions about what you're
putting in your body.
Do you know what thecontraindications are for the
meds that you are on and peopledidn't know?
(52:38):
And did you know that somemedications make you feel
suicidal when you change medsand they didn't know?
And did you know that somemedications make you feel
suicidal when you change medsand they didn't know?
So ask more questions aroundyour mental health.
So these are the things that wewanted to do, and so we then did
different variations of thatand this year we're doing it on
(53:01):
men's mental health.
We want to look particularlyaround testosterone, because we
know that low testosterone canbring on poor mental health and
it has a knock-on effect oneverything else Sleep, how you
feel about yourself, yourmotivation, your sex drive,
(53:27):
everything.
So we wanted to bring that tothe forefront because you know,
ryan parr, who did something forour men's group, talked about
men's mental health, spoke abouttestosterone and the things
that he was saying resonatedwith our men and off the back of
(53:49):
it, they all went and got theirtestosterone tested and a few
of them had low testosterone and, off the back of it, are doing
really well.
Now how many other men don'tknow this information that
testosterone can play a massivepart in men's hormones and
mental health and physicalhealth.
Andy Esam (54:12):
It's a conversation to be had yeah, absolutely we
actually had ryan park on hereand he was.
He was great in terms of therevelations he gave surrounding
testosterone.
Jenny Reyner (54:24):
Why don't GPs tell you this information?
Why don't they test you for itas a regular thing?
I don't get it.
Andy Esam (54:34):
I'm really excited by your event as well, about
medication, because my mum, whenshe was struggling with
depression depression was onlithium for about 20 years and
ended up almost having totalkidney failure, to the point
which had to come off it.
And then, when she had anotherserious bout of depression, the
meds didn't seem to be doinganything.
We rarely reviewed such erraticbehavior and you just sort of
(54:55):
thought that there's got to besomething in this, because it's
not it.
The medication was doingnothing as far as I'm concerned.
Jenny Reyner (55:02):
So yeah, had had got used to it yeah, no.
Andy Esam (55:09):
Well, those events sound absolutely amazing and
will save lives, so yes, goodluck to you.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (55:15):
And they're november 17th.
Is that the no?
Jenny Reyner (55:19):
it's the 21st of November 21st of November.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (55:21):
Sorry, I'll be there on both days.
No, I'll be there on the 21st.
Andy Esam (55:26):
Thanks so much for giving us your time today, Jenny
, and for talking so openly.
Really really appreciate it,and I couldn't speak for the
first 10 minutes, but that wasjust because it was so touching.
Jenny Reyner (55:38):
I was really moved by what you're saying.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (55:39):
Thank you, yeah, thank you so much thank
you for inviting me on yourpodcast well, it's great to have
you welcome back listener.
We hope you enjoyed thatinterview with jenny.
We hope you were just touchedand moved and hopefully inspired
(56:00):
and given some hope for thefuture, given what people like
Jenny are doing taking action.
Andy Esam (56:08):
Yeah, seriously, seriously inspiring lady and has
been recognized for it.
So maybe we should end on thepositive of her accolades Rich,
if you want to rattle throughthem.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (56:20):
Yeah, well , we just took these from her
website, but she has receivedthe british citizens award for
service to the community,regional finalists for pride of
britain award, british citizensaward certificate of merit and
the mayor's annual volunteersaward, so it's great to see that
she's being recognized becauseshe is having a big impact.
(56:41):
I think she's mentionedthousands of families that have
been supported by thisfoundation and long may it
continue and I believe they doaccept donations.
They do look for support, so gocheck out the Lucy Rayner
Foundation One if you needsupport for your mental health
(57:02):
and you're in the Surrey area,or if you want to provide some
support.
I'm sure they would be mostgrateful for that.
Andy Esam (57:10):
I absolutely loved Jenny's vision of the future as
well, with all of that under oneroof, the different therapy
types and the different ways inwhich you can improve your
mental health all under one roof.
That sounds like such anamazing thing, and I'm sure
she'll do it.
And there's many more accoladesto come, no doubt no doubt.
Dr. Richard L. Blake (57:32):
All right.
Well.
Thank at andy sam, at richard lblakecom, at verbeth geek on
instagram.
Yes, all right.
Well, thank you, listener.
(57:54):
We hope you enjoyed the episodeand we will see you next time.
Take care, bye.
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