September 23, 2024 • 52 mins
Cramped into those tiny football boots as a kid? Ever felt self-conscious about your feet? You're not alone! In this episode, we unlock the secrets to revitalizing your foot health and overall well-being. Discover the shocking effects of improper footwear and learn how barefoot shoes, like those from Vivo Barefoot, can turn things around. With expert guest Philip Anthony Mangan from Vivo Barefoot, we take a humorous yet informative dive into quirky fashion choices and the intriguing history of shoes, all while examining the ethical practices of this innovative brand.
We expose the uncomfortable truths about modern footwear, from narrow toe boxes to excessive cushioning, and how these design flaws disrupt natural foot movement and body mechanics. Explore the surprising connection between foot health and overall well-being, including its impact on your breathing. Learn how barefoot shoes can enhance athletic performance, reduce injuries, and even correct physical issues like knee pain. We also discuss essential tips for transitioning smoothly to barefoot shoes, ensuring you make the switch safely and effectively.
Engaging with the next generation is key! We highlight the importance of educating young minds about the health and environmental benefits of barefoot shoes. Striking a balance between occasional fashionable choices and the consistent benefits of Vivo Barefoot shoes is crucial. The conversation touches on the potential extremism within the biohacking and barefoot communities, advocating for a balanced approach. Don't miss our special discount code and explore the rich history and genuine ethos behind Vivo Barefoot. Tune in to transform your foot health and embrace a more natural way of moving!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi Rich, I'm just going to hook the listeners in
here.
What's wrong with our shoes?
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Wow, what an interesting hook.
I bet the listener is desperateto find that out.
What are so many things?
Andy Gosh, did you know how badour shoes were for us?
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Yeah, I didn't actually, and it's one of those
episodes that bothsimultaneously, I was genuinely
hooked by it but also quiteworried, and I had a sort of
playback of all the things Iused to do when I was little.
For example, I used to try andget smaller football boots,
because I think I heard one timeand that made you better, if
you like cram your feet into afootball boot that was slightly
too small.
(00:35):
God knows where I got that from.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Um, and all the horrendous mistakes I made with
footwear and still continue tomake yeah, yeah, um my, you know
he liked to have a lot of funwith me, and one of the ways he
would get into my mind wastelling me that my feet were too
big.
Really, yeah, I think there's abit of self-consciousness as
well.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Because obviously your feet grow a bit before you
do, and I was walking aroundwith like size 9s when I was
sort of 12 or something and itjust looked so stupid.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
So I think 12 or something.
It just looked so stupid, so Ithink that probably had a role
to play in it, and now I'veprobably buggered up my feet as
a result.
So, um, but it's notirredeemable, is it?
No, there's plenty of ways youare going to learn, listener,
how you can be saved.
Saved like just yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
I mean, it is like a religious saving in some regard
I think it was genuinely veryeye-opening and I I wasn't um
insincere when I said I'm gonnaget myself down to the vivo
barefoot store in covent garden.
Um, I've actually been a whileago, but I think I bottled it on
fashion grounds, but I've seensome of the designs and they are
actually pretty sick these days.
So, and now I'm doing this, Isuppose I've got a bit more
(01:41):
credibility.
You know, in the wellness world, they'll probably expect me to
to be wearing vivos, won't they?
Really, if they ever see me in,in, uh, in anything other,
they'll be disappointed big time, big time.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yeah, I think the fashion industry in the
biohacking world is quite aweird one.
So you've got regular peoplewho just turn up in you know
just normal clothes.
Then you have the extremebiohackers who are all wearing
these like, really like quiteweird stuff, like they're all
wearing like vivos with you knowmassive toe boxes, and then
they all seem to wear thesemassive cargo pants like cargo
(02:13):
pants yeah because they've gotso many like devices and
biohacks in their pocket.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
I'm guessing they need 20 pockets yeah, they've
all got weird like weird, weirdnecklaces and things.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
And then they've obviously got the orange glasses
and things.
When you say they, you're oneof them, Rich.
Well, I tried to balance it.
I tried to look like a coolnormie slash.
Ooh, he's got some slightlyyellow glasses there.
He's a bit quirky.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Well, you're going to have to address me for the
biohacking conference next yearin Austin.
Yes, I'm going to look like afish out of water, I think, just
um, just going nuts.
I'll wear the glasses, I'llwear the cargo pants.
Obviously I'll have my vivobarefoot and um, yeah, you know,
yeah, I might even just walkaround with a red light as well
just walking around flashingpeople.
(02:59):
Yeah with my red light.
Yeah, that's what I meant.
What did you think I meant?
But anyway, who's we got ontoday from vivo barefoot?
Speaker 2 (03:07):
yeah, we've got philip anthony mangan, another
model.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
So yeah, he was a good-looking chap.
I thought I wasn't going to sayanything because I thought it
was a bit irrelevant, but yeahyes, uh, it wasn't particularly
relevant to to the show, butthat's that's.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
You know, if you're watching on youtube, check,
check that out check it out,yeah so we learn all sorts about
the history of of shoes and whythey've been messing up, how we
can recover from the torturethat we've been placing our
shoes in, and, yeah, some sortof wider themes as well.
You know, running through sortof like foot orthorexia is that
a thing?
Have people become too obsessedwith foot health and what's the
(03:42):
sort of the antidote for that?
Speaker 1 (03:44):
yeah, I think that they do seem like a genuinely
good company and I thought I hadno idea the association to
clark's footwear, which isobviously a very um,
well-established brand in the uk.
So they obviously got the kindof um credentials behind them
and they also seem like a veryethical, uh and yeah, spot on
brand.
(04:04):
So, yeah, I hope you enjoylistening about them and what
you can do for your feetlistener.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Hey listener, if you're enjoying the insights and
stories we share on our pod,then don't miss out on any of
our episodes.
Hit the subscribe button todownload and listen to our
conversations at yourconvenience.
At your convenience.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Philip, welcome to the show.
I'm going to start you off niceand easy.
What is wrong with our shoes?
Speaker 3 (04:37):
That is an easy one.
Well, first off, thanks forhaving me, and that is a
question that I don't think mostpeople realize.
Hence, we've been wearing thesame shoes since we've been born
and we've been marketed to in acertain way and we just think
it's normal.
But when you look at the modernshoe, there's a couple things
wrong with it.
It's not.
(04:58):
It doesn't have a wide toe box,it doesn't allow your toes to
splay.
Naturally you're jamming yourtoes into a small, small, small
area and then it's cushioned.
So then you're not able toconnect to the ground and
activate the actual muscles inyour foot and then it's very
rigid.
So most modern shoes youwouldn't be able to roll up in a
(05:21):
ball.
So then it is not allowing your, your foot and ankle to move
how it was intended to move.
Thus you're not able to buildthat strength in your ankle.
So you know, that's why I thinka lot of people refer to like I
need ankle support.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Well, that's because you just have weak ankles, but
it's usually because of theshoes are there any other ways
that the shoes are harming us,like they call it, like back
problems and things like that?
Speaker 3 (05:47):
well, yeah, I mean, and that's where I think that
you can go from the cushion tothe heel.
So anytime you you have a heel,the larger the heel, the more
obviously you're, you're,disconnected from the ground and
and out of out of balance.
I guess you would say so.
Your alignment like so.
Think about this like if you'rewalking around on a heel and
(06:08):
not a very flat surface,connected from the ground and
out of balance, I guess youwould say so.
Your alignment like so.
Think about this like if you'rewalking around on a heel and
not a very flat surface, you'regoing to be putting the majority
of your weight on one part ofyour foot and that basically
messes up the whole kineticchange.
So it's like, basically, yourfoot, your feet, are the
foundation for the rest of yourbody, so if you're out of whack
in your feet, then it goes allthe way up and essentially, a
lot of people have back painbecause of that.
(06:29):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
And so I suppose, why should we wear barefoot shoes?
It's probably worth saying atthis point you work for a
company called Vivo or Vivo, howdo I say it?
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Vivo.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Vivo Okay cool.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
And so why should we wear barefoot shoes?
Well, yeah, I kind of justtouched on that first question.
Basically, so you know our feet, so our feet can move how they
were intended to move, our feetand ankles.
So, and then, essentially, sowe can have better balance and
stronger feet and and createless, less pain for ourselves
and less um potential chances ofinjury yeah, I think, uh, I'm
(07:09):
doing some further breathworktraining at the moment and they
were just did a little video onhow our feet affect our
breathing.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
So you know these people were suggesting you know
we kind of foam roll or golfball roll our feet and we did
that exercise and when wemassaged our feet our breathing
became more open.
So it's like our feet are notdid that exercise and when we
massaged our feet our breathingbecame more open.
So it's like our feet are notjust these little things we cram
in these little boxes, but theyaffect so much more of our body
that's.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
Yeah, that's amazing, honestly.
Like when you start doing, youknow, if you, if you get into
like obviously, pat like first,obviously maybe one of the
things that you do is just getbarefoot.
And if you start doing certainlike things trying to do,
they're called.
It's called like toe exercise,like toga, it's called when you
start seeing how much our bodyis connected.
If you're doing these toeexercises, trying to like,
(07:57):
potentially, raise one of yourtoes, your big toe, up, and keep
the other ones down, you'llstart seeing your hands kind of
like maneuver a little bit.
But that's just because we'reconnected.
You know, we're trying to andwe don't realize, like we're
just so disconnected down therebecause we have this big barrier
between us and the ground andmost people go, most people go
(08:17):
all day just wearing shoes likethat, and obviously they don't
think anything of it.
So, um, you know, and then, asyou mentioned, with the breath,
work it's think anything of it.
So, um, you know, and then, asyou mentioned, with the breath,
work it's the more you'rereleasing that tension.
There it's allowing you to relaxmore.
Yeah, so what?
Speaker 1 (08:32):
happened?
Like is it?
Was it just a slow corruptionof, um you know, the fashion
industry, having this big impacton us and us hearing that
pointy is fashionable, or?
Speaker 3 (08:41):
I realize it's not your responsibility, by the way,
philip I should say yeah, Imean, I don't know exactly what
happened, but I think it's likeanything in life.
I think there was goodintentions behind it and then
slowly it starts shifting, youknow little, but little by
little, and then that justbecomes the norm and I think you
don't really need to correct aproblem if, like you, already
(09:03):
have the tool, the proper tools.
You, you know your foot.
I mean, essentially, it's niceto have some protection on the
bottom of your foot in caseyou're walking over different
terrains.
You don't want to get your footcut on glass and all this
different stuff or even rocks.
But I think when it started ithad good intention of protection
.
And then it just slowly, overtime, the heel got bigger, the
(09:26):
cushion got more and you'retrying to look for advancements
in the shoe.
How do you get people to keepbuying things?
You try to create the nextversion, the next best version.
Well, you don't need to createthe next best version if you
already have it.
You were born with it.
So I think it's just one ofthose things you know, as we've
seen probably in our lifetimes,it's just slow, the slow build,
(09:50):
and then it just becomes likeeven now you start seeing some
of the shoes that they're comingout with is crazy, like how big
the cushion is and how like,and I mean, is there and they
say it's technology.
Is it really technology?
Is it really helping us?
And I think that to bedetermined in in reality.
I mean it's.
It obviously allows us to docertain things at a quicker
(10:11):
speed, like, like, run, butyou're running.
You're running might becompletely wrong from it and
you're you're runningdisconnected and so, yeah, I
think it's, it just happenedover time.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
I guess it's the simplest answer yeah, and so
I've heard of friends who've gotquite flat feet and then they
get given shoes.
They've got one of those reallybig artificial arches in.
Is that completely the wrongapproach then?
Speaker 3 (10:35):
from what I'm hearing , well, I know the science
behind flat feet a little bitmore, very briefly, but I just
know, like usually flat feet,unless there's a couple
different types of flat feet andthere's more.
Very briefly, but I just know,like usually flat feet, unless
there's a couple of differenttypes of flat feet, and there's
only a very, very smallpercentage of people with flat
feet that actually need to makea actual bigger shift in their
(10:56):
footwear with like adjustments.
And I think it doesn't hurt tohave like some arch support to
start.
And when you start, you want tobuild a strong arch.
You're starting, you start witha insert, but the thing is
people usually just think thatthey need it and they continue
to have it and it's like almostkind of like a bandaid.
It's like, hey, this is helpingme, but you're not able to
(11:18):
develop the arch if you're notactually using that insert.
So I think that's the issue here.
It's like with a lot of people,even with like plantar
fasciitis, it really is just aweakness of the foot.
So then they're putting insertsin but you're not actually able
to activate and you'reobviously in these shoes that
aren't allowing you to activatethe muscles in your foot.
(11:39):
So then it's obviously justagain.
It might feel good at first butover time you're just, you
still have that same issue.
So I think a lot of our likefoot problems, that we think we
can be corrected from like aquick fix of like an insert,
just really need actually to putin the time and work.
And the simplest thing you cando is just being barefoot more
(12:00):
often and then, if you can't bebarefoot, you can get into a
pair of shoes that replicatebeing barefoot, like our shoes
yeah, this reminds me of a themewe came up in our last episode
with this guy, craig.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
He's a men's worker and it's just all these sort of
things we do to make our lifeeasier actually come back to
bite us and we're just, you know, we're no longer resilient our
feet I've been.
We think we're making solving aproblem by putting shoe lifts
on or arch supports and we'reactually making ourselves weaker
.
And yeah, we just need to buildup some strength in in in our
(12:35):
feet.
And yeah, I I had that problem.
I had plantar fasciitis for fora long time and yeah, I went to
a foot specialist and theycreated custom insoles with
really supportive arches and itdidn't didn't go away.
I could kind of manage theproblem.
It didn't get any worse.
Then I switched to fiber,barefoot and doing those toe
(12:56):
lifts toga, like you said, andyeah, I haven't really had
plantar fasciitis since.
So for me it was a real gamechanger.
One other question I have islike I've had the toe lift in
regular shoes.
It's quite bad, like how we'realmost like, yeah, the shoes
that they have a high heel andthen the toes go up at the end.
How big of a problem is that?
Speaker 3 (13:18):
yeah, well, number one obviously, usually the toe
lift is not only lifted, but,yeah, I mean, the toe box is not
only lifted, but it is small.
So then, not only is it notallowing your toes to connect to
the ground, but it's notallowing them to display, and
the big toe is actually thefoundation of our stability.
(13:40):
So that's actually why wedeveloped the big toe it was to
actually keep us to stand and tobe stable.
So that's probably the onething that you see most often is
people, and we have this toolthat we use when we do events.
It's called a plantar pressureplate, and you get on, you stand
(14:01):
on, you can stand on with yourshoes on, but we show people,
hey, this is how it looks withyour shoes on.
You usually can't see your footand you're just saying, hey,
well, how are you evenactivating your feet?
But then when you put it on,when you put, take your shoes
off and you get on there, youactually usually most people you
won't see their toes beingactivated there, and that's the
(14:22):
problem.
It's like most people, as thecushion and the heels are doing,
is making us have this likelittle lean back almost, and
then when you look at that isthat really posture.
If you're not standing straightup, you're always leaning back
almost in a way.
So the toe not being able toactivate that big toe is a very
(14:43):
big problem.
So we usually will prescribehow to correct that is doing
those toe exercises, becausethat you're just starting to and
it's very challenging, don'tget me wrong, it's.
It definitely takes some timeand effort.
But again, like if you'relooking at it from like a
longevity standpoint and anoverall health standpoint, like
(15:04):
anything, it's what you have todo, the work it's.
It's like if you want to be fitand into later in life, you've
got to stay active, you have tobe doing the things, you have to
be eating well, it's not like,hey, I'm just taking a pill and
then I'm fine, so I did there it.
Feet are the same thing.
There is no magic pill to it,but it's the actual, the easiest
(15:27):
way you can actually startreversing this whole issues with
your feet is just really justgetting getting barefoot more
often.
I mean, it's simple as that andit's actually it's free.
You don't necessarily need tobuy the shoes, especially if you
work from home, you know.
Be barefoot all day and exposeyour feet to different elements,
like even even your toes.
(15:47):
There's different like littletools that you can do for, like
balance and like gripping withyour, gripping your toes.
But there's lots of exercises,even just you know that you can
do with a you know towel, grabswith your toes and that, and
that's super simple.
So, yeah, I'm glad you pointedout and it's like yeah, like,
yeah, it almost creates thatrocking motion when you don't,
when you're not able to and Ithink that's probably what's
(16:08):
allowing people to, to even getmaybe a little bit quicker is
you're not actually even on theground as long yeah, um, what
you said there about it beingdifficult, it's amazingly
difficult.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
when I was trying to do the um, keep your big toe
down and lift up your other fourtoes and then go back and
forward.
Listen, you might want to givethis a try.
So, yeah, you press your fourtoes into the ground and lift
your big toe up and then youswap.
When you press your big toedown and lift the other four up,
I do like three sets of 10 onthat.
When I first started, I couldnot do it at all.
(16:41):
I was just staring at my feetfor like five minutes.
I was in a physical therapycenter and it just looked like I
was like a mad person juststaring at my feet with nothing
happening.
I was trying to make my feetmove but I couldn't.
Eventually, after a few weeksof practice, it became just like
doing it with my hands, but Ijust completely lost that
connection between my brain andmy feet.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Yeah, that, and it's good that you pointed out like
the brain connection, becausethat's I mean, if you look back
when we first started walking,it's not like it.
Actually you'll see, mostpeople are not putting their
babies right in a pair of shoes,because that's actually how you
get that sensory feedback.
So it's like, and we'rebasically blocking our sensory
(17:24):
feedback and we've we've blockedit for so many years, like, and
we're basically blocking oursensory feedback and we've we've
blocked it for so many yearsthat now we're just we just
think it's the norm kind ofthing, and and and that's the
problem where, when it comes todoing those little toe exercises
, that makes it so frustratingyeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Another exercise I like is is marbles picking up
marbles like 30 marbles and thenputting them in a bucket with
your toes.
That's quite a fun one that isa good one.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Yeah, you know how to live rich oh yes, that's,
that's how I have my fun Ithought you did the golf ball
thing, rolling the golf ball onthe.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah, so that's for me that's for massage, and you
know getting rid of um, you knowtension and things like that.
But then you also need tostrengthen the feet as well.
But you know, one thing I don'tknow so much is the toe spaces.
Vivo sell those, don't they?
Why?
Why should we use those?
Speaker 3 (18:15):
well, we don't make them specifically, but now we
actually have them on our ourwebsite with one of our partners
, neboso.
But yeah, toe spaces are greatbecause obviously it kind of
helps in that getting that splaya bit more and letting the toes
kind of uh, yeah, just loosenup, I guess your best way to put
it.
So when I before I even gotinto wearing vivos, I think
(18:36):
that's a very good easy entrytool for people to use and and
usually you'll see, like you putthem on and but you're, you're
not able to wear them long time,like a long period of time,
because your toes will actuallystart to hurt because they're
being like almost forced backinto the natural position they
had.
But it's been so long sincethey've been there and
(18:57):
unfortunately, yeah, it'll hurt.
But over time it actually kindof helps, kind of, I guess not
say speed up the process,because it's not a speedy
process and I think it just ithonestly helps getting you used
to having that splay a bit moreand maybe, once you do have a
little bit more of a room inbetween your toes, it makes it
almost those toe exercises alittle bit easier, because
you're actually used to havingthem splay like that.
(19:19):
So yeah, they're.
They're a great tool and veryeasy entry point.
You can get a pair for likeprobably $10 and put them on and
wearing them, you can even wearthem.
What's cool about it isactually you can even wear them
in Vivo barefoot shoes.
So I had one of my colleagues.
He kind of got me into the toesocks as well, so then it's like
he was wearing the toe socks,then he had toe spacer on top of
(19:42):
that, and then in the Vivos andit's like you're fully just
like splayed the whole whole day.
So it's it.
There's levels to it, you know,and and I mean honestly, it
really just depends on how, howcrazy you want to get.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
But I mean the, the general level is just being
barefoot often and then evenmaybe using toe spacers yeah, I,
I can remember seeing my mygrandmother's feet, years of
pointing pointy shoes and justlike she was in all sorts of
pain, like bunions and like toes, you know, curling in over each
other.
So that was sort of like theextreme end of it.
(20:17):
It's like if you wear theseshoes for like 80 years, your
feet become malformed and theystart to hurt you.
So I mean, that's sort of the avery, a very good reason to not
wear these really pointy shoesall the time and to get a bit.
It's not just about gettingoptimal, it's about avoiding
pain as well.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, the bunions thing is.
You just pointed that out.
It's like, yeah, like that'show bunions.
It's not like really like ahereditary thing, it's actually
like just from you jamming yourfeet into a space and then it's
creating the muscle, like thegrowth.
Because of that, your feet arejammed in and you're not able to
actually let your feetnaturally splay.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
So tell us what Vivo offers.
Obviously, there are otherbarefoot brands out there, but
we want to know what's specialabout Vivo.
Yeah, what's really specialabout Vivo offers.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
Obviously there are other barefoot brands out there,
but we want to know what'sspecial about Vivo.
Yeah, what's what's reallyspecial about Vivo?
And actually, like, when Ifirst learned about the company,
it kind of caught my eye themost.
They're very big into thesustainability and they're
trying to be regenerative aspossible with, like the footwear
that they create.
So they are a certified B Corpand you don't really see that I
(21:26):
mean I'm not sure if there's anyother brand in the footwear
industry that is a B Corp it'sbecause the supply chain is just
it's a crazy.
A lot of times you'll see likemost shoes are.
They have like 25 or 30 touchpoints.
So it's very hard to besustainable in the footwear
industry.
But that's vivo's goal.
It's not about just connectingpeople back to nature and
(21:48):
connecting yourself to theground.
It's actually they.
They believe by connectingpeople back to nature, they
actually want to take care of itand I think that's and that
goes for us like as a company.
It's like we want to set thatexample.
It's not like we're not justcreating a piece of footwear for
your health, it's like for thehealth of the planet and that's
the I think the real cool partabout it is it's.
(22:10):
They're always looking about it.
How can we do better and howcan we create less waste?
Speaker 2 (22:17):
yeah, and it's interesting that it was set up
by one of the family, the sonsof the clark's family, right.
So in the us I don't thinkclarks are very famous, but all
my, all my shoes when I was akid were from from clarks.
They were, you know, huge, hugeshop franchise album.
That was a franchise butshoemaker in the uk yeah, no,
it's.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
It's a real cool, like when you hear the story, go
to these company events andeven get to talk to the founders
, their seventh generationcobblers, and I think that's
actually, if you look way back.
It's kind of like how Clarkstarted, in a way of like
wanting a wider toe box, like anactual foot shaped shoe.
(22:58):
So it's just even for them too.
They probably steered away fromthat over time, just happened
to be that way, but it is reallycool to see that they're, you
know, this seventh generationfamily and then they're trying
to actually correct the damagethat's been done, in a way, from
many shoes and what kind ofrange of footwear do you have?
(23:21):
Yeah, we honestly we make it all, which is pretty amazing.
I don't know many othercompanies doing that.
And yeah, we have obviously awhole fitness range and we have
outdoor range boots, trailrunning shoes, and then we have
a big category of lifestyleshoes when it comes to like
sneakers, everyday wear, tosandals, to lifestyle boots.
(23:45):
So it's it continues to kind ofgrow, I think, in that realm,
because I think one thing thatpeople don't realize, especially
like in the, when it comes tobarefoot shoes, it's like the
more you wear them, the morebenefits you're going to have.
So you'll see a lot of peoplein the, in the training space,
wearing vivos, I think becausethey understand the science
(24:05):
behind it most especially likethe trainers and physios,
chiropractors, all the healthprofessionals.
They understand vivo prettywell.
But in the training spacespecifically, you'll see people
either barefoot in the gym ormaybe wearing vivos, know Vivos
or another barefoot shoe, butwhen they get out into the gym
they put their feet back inthose shoes again.
(24:28):
The small toe box, the thicksoles, and there's just this big
disconnect that actually, inreality, you'll get more
benefits if you don't even youknow if you're not wearing them
in the gym.
If you're wearing them.
I think the main study that wasdone it was done by like Oxford
university is like I think itwas done over like a six month
period of time.
It's if you wear vivosbasically like six days a week,
(24:51):
I guess you would say like 80%of your time over a six month
period.
The studies show that you canincrease your foot strength up
to I think it was like 58%.
So it was like 58%.
So it was like just by walkingaround in them everyday life,
you're increasing your footstrength and I think that's
probably where the disconnect isthere in the but also it comes
(25:12):
from, like, our desire to befashionable.
I think and I never used tothink like barefoot shoes were
that fashionable Like when Ifirst learned about them.
I think it was.
I discovered Vivo in like like2018 after I got, like my
personal training certification.
I just kind of was able toconnect the dots of like you
know, being barefoot is isbetter for you, and I just
(25:33):
remember seeing their, theirrange and being like I'd wear
these to train in, but I don'treally see any like fashion
staples of like in my wardrobe,but now it's that's one of their
biggest focuses, like causethat's.
I think, believe like that'show you get the general
population is you createsomething that's not only
functional, that is actually hassome fashion to it as well.
(25:53):
So, there's the growing range ofthe lifestyle, but I'd say we
are probably we've been the mostpopular in the in the
performance range.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah, that is.
I'd echo that point that when Ifirst started wearing vivos, I
felt a little bit self-consciousabout it, but now, yeah, the
designs have really improved.
I love the new motor strengthones.
I think they're the bestlooking ones and they're the
best for like training, crossfit, and we were speaking off air
about professional athleteswearing Vivos, but I think
CrossFitters professionalCrossFitters could be wearing
Vivos or perhaps should be.
(26:28):
But yeah, do you want toelaborate on that point about
athletic shoes?
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Yeah, I mean, as you, as you guys know, it's like I
mean most athletic shoes arethey?
They fall into the samecategory, just like smaller toe
box and they, and also likecushion, especially when it
comes to like basketball playersand stuff like that and it's
and and usually they're they'rerigid as well.
So there's, they're actuallyfalling into the same category,
just like most modern day shoes,but where we see kind of like
(26:55):
the, the athletes using vivos isnot on the court or on the
field, it's it's actually offthe court and off the field for
their training, so basicallybeing able to strengthen their
feet and ankles.
So when they actually get ontothe court it actually enhances
their performance and it's been.
It's been really cool to see alot more athletes in our shoes.
We've been.
A lot of people are reaching outto us, whether it's the
(27:18):
trainers from the teams oragents with the players
interested in trying them out,and for us it's like I think
when you see it from like in theperformance space and on the
athletic, like pro sports level,you know that it actually is
going to make a very strongimpact, because pro athletes
(27:38):
wouldn't be doing usingsomething unless they actually
believed in it that it wouldenhance their performance and I
think they're understanding thescience now.
Especially their trainers areusually the ones introducing it
to them.
So I think a lot of excitingpossibilities in that space for
athletes that have only done itone way, especially basketball
players.
You think about that?
(27:59):
It's like they're reallydisconnected from the ground and
their feet and they use.
Obviously they're going in alldifferent types of direction on
the court and a lot of peoplehave, like ankle sprains or
Achilles issues and all thesedifferent things that could
actually might even be preventedby actually just having
stronger feet for when theyactually get on the court.
(28:19):
So it's exciting times that nowit's getting recognized
barefoot shoes for actually, oreven just more barefoot training
yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
There are some sort of.
There is a bit of a transitionto wearing barefoot, isn't there
?
I've worn them for running.
When I first started, I startedto get a little bit of shin
splints.
I also wore them for tennisonce and I got quite bad
blisters and things like that.
So so what?
How?
When people should are thinkingabout transitioning, what
should they think about?
Speaker 3 (28:47):
yeah, I mean it's.
I think the best way to likelook at it is think about it
this way like if, if you haven'tlike worked out, like you
didn't go to the gym for like amonth or two months, now say,
like, enhance that to like 20years of your life.
Like you go to the gym and youwork out, you're going to be
really sore the next day.
And especially if you work outreally hard like, hey, I'm going
(29:10):
to go out.
So it's a very same same withyour like your feet.
Your feet haven't been workedout.
Essentially they haven't.
They haven't been put throughthat.
So it's always best to kind oflike go slow and easy with the
transitioning.
We usually say wear them, tryit like, wear them around the
house for a little bit, wearthem outside for like a short
walk and kind of see what feelsgood and what doesn't feel good.
(29:35):
If it starts to feel likediscomfort, then maybe get out
of them and let your, your body,get used to them them.
So I think a lot of people havethe the issue with doing too
much in them to start.
So it's really better to startslow and easy, even for me, like
when I first got them and Ikind of learned, I kind of knew
about the transition a littlebit, but I, of course, like I
(29:55):
pushed a little too much and Iended up.
I ended up just running in them.
But that was also because I,before I got vivos, I I got
these like socks that were kindof like sock shoes in a way, so
very same, and I got up to likea 5k over time.
But it took a long, long timeto even get up to that and it
(30:27):
takes a long time to stay atthat level where you're.
I wouldn't say my feet are assore, but my calves, they feel
it the most, I think, wheneverI'm going a further distance.
But yeah, it's one of thosethings where you just need to
take it slow and easy and andjust listen to your body.
To be honest, I think that'sthe best way to do it, like all
things, like if, if you'refeeling it, then back out and
(30:50):
then see how you're feelingtomorrow and then maybe get back
in them and go a little bitfurther.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
And are we wearing socks with Vivo, or ideally not?
Speaker 3 (30:58):
Yeah, I mean you treat them like they're um
regular shoes.
I mean I, I mean you can, youdon't have to wear socks with
them, but I, I treat them likethey're regular shoes, as in
like to reduce the smell andyeah, that's what I'm thinking
from a hygiene point of viewyeah, yeah, that's really where
it is, I mean, but yeah, like uh, you don't have to wear them.
I guess that's the best way toput it and when you're running
(31:21):
27k, you which?
Speaker 2 (31:22):
which model are you wearing, like the primus light
or the special trail runningshoes?
Speaker 3 (31:28):
yeah, I was wearing one of the special trail running
shoes there.
They have like a michelin sole,so like michelin tires, it's a
very rugged sole, so and thatwas that was actually very
helpful for the mountain run andwe were going over different
terrains and it was actuallyvery helpful for the mountain
run.
We were going over differentterrains and it was actually the
one that I wore was the HydraESC, which is actually made for
swim runs also and just made todrain very quickly and
(31:53):
thankfully I wore those onesbecause it was very, very muddy,
wet terrain so I wasn't reallyafraid of of jumping in the mud
and the funny thing was watching, actually, other people that
didn't have vivos on going intothe like, into like the mud or
other things, and you can justsee how unstable they were and
when you're going into thesedifferent elements, how you're
(32:15):
cause if you have that cushionand you're going into this like
terrain, that's not very likeallowing you to connect to the
ground.
It's almost like you're justmore prone to like an ankle roll
or falling down where were youdoing that run?
Speaker 2 (32:27):
not not in florida, I hope.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
100 degrees humidity not in, not in florida, actually
did it in sweden.
Um, yeah, so it was.
Yeah, it was beautiful,honestly, and I I kind of
decided to do it last, likewithin like the the week prior
to it, and I wouldn't say like Iwas 100% trained up to go that
far, but I would say that like Ijust was like all right, I'm
(32:50):
gonna take it slow and easy, andthere's a lot of elevation gain
, so it was like you're walkingup the hills more so and then
just running down them andthrough the other areas.
But yeah, it was beautiful.
I mean, I couldn't pass uprunning in that beautiful
location, even though there wasother distances.
It was actually like aweek-long running event, so it
was cool.
And Vivo was actually one ofthe main sponsors for the event,
(33:12):
so it was cool to kind of seepeople's interest in the shoes.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
And you mentioned, it's very much like a growth
industry.
I think I'm seeing them moreand more on the streets of
London.
Does that mean the kind of thescience is catching up and in
terms of like medical knowledgeas well?
Because I'm just thinking?
I know people with bunions andnot once has their doctor
recommended a change of footwear.
It's always oh, you can getthese corrective splints or you
(33:39):
can get quite expensive andprobably very painful operations
.
So I mean, is the science now?
Speaker 3 (33:48):
catching up with the idea that these things can
actually really help your feet.
Yeah, I believe so.
I think it's about getting theright educators on board to
educate people.
I mean, at the end of the day,when you think about anything
that changes over time, it allstarts with an open mind by you,
the consumer, also you, theeducator, and I think, with all
these different health tools andadvances that are people's
(34:11):
interest in how to biohack theirhealth, it's really, I think,
opening the door for Vivo a bitmore.
And it's kind of honestly, whenyou think about it in general,
it's like one of the simplestways you can do it is just be
barefoot more and then, if youunderstand that being barefoot
more, then you say, hey, well,how can I replicate this
throughout the rest of my daywhen I can't be barefoot?
(34:33):
And then you get into the shoes, but I do believe it.
Just, yeah, people are justbeing more open-minded.
And I think, also, when youthink about it from a
generational standpoint, youhave this group that you know
maybe have older people thathave been taught a certain way
and that are harder to change.
Then you start seeing theyounger crowd of educators come
in that are more open-minded andthat are learning different
(34:56):
sciences than the people abovethem, and I think that's
probably where it's starting tocatch on more and people are
picking up on it.
And then again it goes intomaybe it's going into multiple
areas education, but also thelooks of it, and then the
popularity and it's like kind ofalmost like boiling up in
different areas to where itactually is creating more of a
buzz, which is, yeah, it'sreally cool.
(35:17):
I know, obviously whenever I goto London, that store is packed
.
There's always a long lineoutside of it and it's just
really cool to see that peopleare willing to wait in line to
get into this store and purchaseshoes that are barefoot, and
I'm excited to see whenever Vivogets their first store in the
(35:38):
US.
I think it might take some timeto grow to that level where
it's a line out.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
But I do think there's a big opportunity here.
Yeah, and can you talk a littlebit about how you're, how
you're trying to position it inthe market?
I know you work with proathletes.
Is that right?
And what's your like marketingstrategy?
How are you kind of getting themessage out there?
Speaker 3 (35:56):
yeah, I would say in multiple areas.
I'd say like, obviously, theathletes is.
We haven't really dove into thethe marketing aspect of the
athlete show.
It's really just about gettingit on their feet.
That's that's where it allstarts, with everyone is you.
You get the shoes on someone'sfeet and then, especially if at
a pro level, it carries into thelocker room with the rest of
the athletes and then theinfluence of athletes and
(36:19):
professional level is isobviously helpful to grow a
brand which there's again somuch possibility with that.
So I'm excited to for us to getto that point where we're
actually potentially havingsomeone, whether it's in a
baseball player athlete orsomeone in the NBA.
We do have John John Florencethe surf, the professional
(36:39):
surfer, who we partnered up with, which has been very helpful
for the brand growth.
So, yeah, I think it's all aboutbeing very strategic in
different ways.
Obviously, we're focused on theyounger generation as well,
because when you get the youngergeneration in and they
understand it, then it's andalso I think the younger
generation is a bit moreopen-minded to these different
(37:00):
health you know the benefits ofVivo but also the environment,
caring for the environment,which is obviously what Vivo is
all about.
So I think, when you look at itfrom a marketing standpoint, you
focus on the people that aremore open-minded, rather than
being needing to correct andreally convince someone on a
greater level that it might beharder to convince on like
(37:21):
someone that's done something 50, 60 years of their life.
But I do think overall we'rediving into different areas, but
it all starts with theeducation and finding great
educators to actually explain topeople why our shoe is
different than the modern shoe.
And that's not the easiest job,especially if you're not
(37:46):
open-minded.
But there's a lot of greatpeople that we work with that
are actually generating, helpinggrow the brand, and it's really
exciting to see I mean, I'vebeen with vivo now for um almost
two years and it's just reallycool to see, like how much of an
impact some of these peoplethat that we're partnering up
with have yeah, that that growthmindset I think is is what vivo
(38:09):
has and I think it's what allour our guests have and all our
kind of listeners have.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
And I think, yeah, there's that, that term from
carol dweck, the growth mindset.
I think there are probably,let's say, 50 of the people have
a growth mindset.
50 of people are just, theydon't want to change.
And I get very frustrated when,you know, speaking to people
who just they just want a reasonnot to change, they don't want
any discomfort.
But uh, yeah, vivo reallyembody that growth mindset.
(38:37):
They're always looking to grow,always looking to improve.
And I I've went into thatcovent garden shop and met ben
lavisconte and had like startedhaving a great chat with him and
then just realized, yeah, hewas completely on the same
wavelength as me.
I did a breathwork session forhim and I think he had a very
good experience and we did anatalia and I did a breath
(38:58):
workshop in that shop in coventGarden.
So we did conscious connectedbreathing on the floor of the
shop, uh, with with a load ofpeople from Vivo and yeah, it
was awesome.
But yeah, just going on to aslightly more technical question
, um, I think some people justuh, you know they are fashion
(39:19):
conscious, I, you know guilty.
I am barefoot most of the timeand I train in Vivo barefoots.
How much damage am I doing If Igo into, like, a pair of vans
you know I want to go out todinner and the vans look better
with what I'm wearing how muchdamage am I doing from wearing
shoes for like three to fourhours?
Speaker 3 (39:41):
Oh, I mean, I think I think again you can almost go
back to the study that I've kindof quoted.
I think as long as you're inthem, in the barefoot shoes or
being barefoot the majority ofthe time, you're not really
doing a whole lot of damage,like I think again it's.
I think it's the opposite.
If you're to flip-flop that andyou were like, hey, I'm going
(40:02):
to be in my vans the rest of thetime and only be in Vivo's like
three, four hours, you're kindof missing out on the benefits.
So I mean, I don't think evenVivo expects everyone to, you
know, have every single shoethat they own, a barefoot shoe.
I mean also, that wouldprobably go against our company
mission of, like, creating morewaste.
(40:23):
It's not like, hey, go throwaway all your shoes.
I mean I, if I go to a wedding,I'll still put my, my feet in a
.
I put it into a coffin, I guess, and I don't really worry.
I just I just noticed thedifference, that's the best way
to put it.
Like I'm not thinking like, oh,this is going to reverse
everything.
(40:43):
It's just like my feet hurtmore when I'm in those shoes,
you know, and I want to get themout of there.
So it actually is like not alot of damage, but I think
you'll notice the difference,that especially the more you
actually are barefoot and you gointo a shoe that might look
more fashionable, but you'llprobably notice the difference
and not want to be in it for aslong.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Yeah, and there definitely are a lot of people
in the biohacking world who areextreme, who have probably
burned all their regular shoesand just bought bought vivos.
I definitely know some peoplewho only ever wear vivos and
chiropractors who say you shouldnever wear anything but Vivo.
But I think that we need toinvent a term like orthorexia.
(41:26):
You know, food obsession andthere is now like a tracker
obsession.
Apparently there is like amental health disorder where
people get so obsessed withtheir aura rings and things like
that.
Maybe there needs to be abarefoot shoe mental health
disorder word.
I mean we can coin that here.
Speaker 3 (41:41):
Yeah, I mean, it's like anything, it's it.
There's always going to bepeople that are on that extreme
approach of of doing things andit's like it's almost kind of
like like when I I want.
Actually, what kind of like ledme into like more of the?
The desire for more likesustainable brands is what, when
I went vegan and I went veganmore for like the, just I was
interested in like the healthaspect of it and but you know,
(42:05):
like I remember when I firstwent vegan and I saw these
people like the extremist of thevegan world and it's like, oh,
you can't do this or can't dothat.
I'm like, well, I'm going to doit my way.
That keeps me sane and like youknow, and I think that's the
thing it's like.
I think think you hear thismajority of the time too.
With even just any diet, it'slike if you eat clean, like
still 80% of the time you'regoing to be fine.
(42:28):
You know it's really when youflip it the opposite way, where
it's like it's bad for you.
So I think there's always goingto be scenarios where people
just want to go above and beyond.
Good for them there.
There's no harm in that, butalso there's no harm in putting
your foot in another shoe for alittle bit of time, and I think
there's a lot of room for growth, especially in the fashion
(42:50):
aspect of of barefoot shoes.
And I think we're, we're, we'reslowly seeing it and when it
gets there, maybe you'll find apair of vans that are like, or
vivos that look like vans, andthen you'd wear that.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
Yeah, it's another sort of theme that I see running
through so much of society.
It's like the people who arethe most mentally ill are the
ones who speak loudest.
You know, the people who arethe extreme carnivores and the
extreme vegans are the ones whoare most vocal.
Yet we don't realize that thesepeople probably have orthorexia
the ones who are most vocal yetwe don't realize that these
(43:23):
people probably have orthorexia.
And, yeah, they become thespokespeople because they're
full of rage.
And then it's the same thingwith, you know, religious
fundamentalists and politicalextremists.
It's always.
It's always the extremes thatsort of give everyone else like
a skewed idea of what normal isand what normal and what healthy
is.
But yeah, that's I think that'sthe message of this podcast.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
Just let's be normal yeah, I think, uh, I think we're
trying to do that.
Yeah, um, so let's say,someone's listened to this, they
are convinced, they are stillteetering on the edge of being
convinced by vivo.
Is there any way you can findkind of like or you can share
any stories or testimonials ofpeople using the shoe who've had
such significant benefits?
(44:04):
You mentioned the oxforduniversity study over the six
month period, but where can wehear more about vivo users?
Speaker 3 (44:12):
Yeah, I would go to the obviously social media page.
Vivo works with a lot of peoplethat have either used Vivos to
correct something or use itbecause they know the benefits
of it.
So they'll be able to explainthe different benefits in that
way on their website so you canread reviews over there too.
(44:34):
But yeah, it's, I think, likejust googling barefoot
testimonials.
I think you'll you'll find alot of people that have actually
corrected a lot of issues withthemselves, and I think that'd
probably be the best route to goon.
If you really want to dive intothe research more, I know like
vivo actually has a on theirwebsite.
We have a whole page set up tooabout the different science
(44:58):
behind everything, if anyone'skeen to dive more into it.
Speaker 1 (45:03):
I was thinking people might actually correct things
they don't even know areconnected to their feet.
To be honest, I think I'dprobably fall in that category.
If I've got a bad knee, Iwouldn't even cross my mind that
it would be to do with the wayI walk or my feet.
I'd actually dig into thescience.
Speaker 3 (45:18):
Yeah, I think.
I think honestly, it's likewith the knee pain.
A lot of people have knee painfrom like when they run and
stuff and it's like, uh, usuallythat's just like most.
I mean, when you're wearinglike modern day running shoes,
you're usually not landing likeproperly.
It's kind of messing up yourrunning form and then people
will see that correction of easeof pain, because when you're
(45:39):
wearing barefoot shoes, yourform kind of gets naturally
corrected because you can't landon your heel without it really
killing you.
You know it's like.
So over time people willunderstand how the proper
running form is.
Obviously there's tips andtools to like.
We do actually have a barefootrunning course.
We have a lot of educationalcourses on the website.
(46:00):
That is something to highlight.
But, like, over time usuallyyou'll you'll start seeing that
correction and then when you arelanding properly, then you're
you're not engaging like thoseareas that you're not supposed
to, and that's you'll see thepain relief interesting.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
Yeah, I'm, I'm, I've got to be honest, I'm, I've, I'm
not currently an owner of vivobarefoot shoes.
Um, I know my shoe size becauseI went into the store one time.
But this is, this is gonna tip,tip me into.
Uh, yeah, taking the plungenice, nice.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
I love that do you have like a discount code?
Speaker 3 (46:34):
yeah, I can, um, I can create one for you guys, if
you want, and then you can haveyour own own one that you can
share with the.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
You know this episode that's great, that's great,
thank you yeah, and where do wefind you for that?
Speaker 3 (46:47):
well, you can find me , um, go to my personal
instagram, philip anthony mangan.
Feel free to say hi if you haveany uh, you know questions.
If you listen to this episodeand you want to learn more, I
can either answer or I candirect you to the right person.
But, like Ben Levescante, likehe knows so much more, I'm
always excited to be aroundpeople that know more about the
(47:09):
barefoot shoes than me and justlike the science behind it, and
it's, I think, that's what'sgreat about the position I'm in.
I'm really around a lot ofeducators.
I'm even managing a lot ofpeople that are doing the
education and on another level,so it's, it's really cool to uh
to see and, yeah, I'm happy toyou know, help out in any way I
can awesome.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
Well, thank you very much for your time and, um, yeah
, vivo just seems like such agenuine and ethical brand, and I
actually didn't know anythingabout the history in terms of
Clark's family, and that's.
That's awesome.
Yeah, add some credibility asfar as I'm concerned.
So, yeah, keep going.
Keep up the good work.
Speaker 3 (47:46):
Yeah, yeah, I appreciate you guys.
Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2 (47:48):
All right, thank you, cheers, tony.
What are your key takeaways?
Our episode.
I knew you could ask me that,oh, really is that because you
asked me to ask it off air.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
Yeah, I asked.
I asked you to ask it justabout just before we went on air
the.
Um, I think we're genuine.
I'm genuinely going to go andget a pair, because if you see
the difference between how theend of a normal shoe tapers and
how vivo actually kind of look Imean it's chalk and cheese.
It couldn't be more oppositeand like the splayed look, I
don't know how I'm going to getused to it, fashion wise, but
(48:26):
I'm going to have to suck it upbecause, um, it seems we are
doing, uh, in some cases,irreparable damage to our feet
by cramming them into these.
Um, I can't remember the phrasehe used, but the small toe box
shoe, yeah, coffins foot coffinsyeah foot coffins.
Yeah, that's pretty dramatic,but yeah, it's um.
No, it's, it's irrefutablescience.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
It seems no one's going against that yeah, and I
think this is one of thosebiohacks that anyone can do.
You know a lot of people willbe like, oh, I don't really want
to change because I don't havethe time or I don't have the
money or things like that, andit's like, yeah, okay, um, well,
this is one that's sort of lessthan free.
You know, you just go barefootand then you'll wear out your
(49:11):
regular shoes less.
You'll spend less money on onshoes if you just take your
shoes off more.
Yes, um, so there's there's noreal excuses.
From that point of view, it's abit like cold showers.
You know they're.
They're less than free becauseyou're not spending the money on
on hot water.
Um, but yeah, my kind of advicefor for switching to to
(49:32):
barefoot shoes is obviously, Igo barefoot around the house as
much as possible.
Um, I really like the.
If you're going to the gym, Ireally like the motor strength
ones, and then they've got thesemotors flex ones as well and
they look really good.
Uh, I was actually in the gymand someone came up to me like,
oh, my god, are those vivos?
Like, oh my god, they look sogood.
I used to.
I looked into them a few yearsago and I didn't like the look
(49:52):
of them, but those look looksweet.
Um, I'm gonna go buy some.
And then the hiking boots yeah,we were just talking off air
about the hiking boots because Ithink they look really good as
well.
Like I think hiking boots.
Maybe it's not obviously not soimportant fashion in hiking as
it is with you know, lifestyleyourself gym shoes.
Speaker 1 (50:11):
I like to look incredibly well presented up the
mountain fair enough, um, but Ithink they look cool.
I think they look cooler thanregular hiking shoes yeah, I
think the reason I bottled it umfirst time I went into the vivo
store in covent garden isbecause I think it was just once
you get up to my size um, whichis the uk 11 and a half it.
It does look quite big andquite slippery um, but I think
(50:35):
you just got to suck it up andjust think well, I'm doing good
for my feet and there we go.
End of chat, but no a lot ofthe designs are very, very good.
Speaker 2 (50:44):
Yeah, and, as you said, you don't have to wear
them all the time.
You don't have to go on a firstdate and feel like I'm wearing
flippers.
You can wear your cool shoes,andy.
Yeah, okay shoes, andy.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
Yeah, okay, good to know.
All right.
Well, I hope you enjoyed theepisode as much as we did, and
also worth mentioning.
Um, very, very kindly.
Uh, philip has given us a codeto pass on to you 20 off vivo
barefoot, so there's really noexcuse to give them a go yes,
we'll put that in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
And yes, where do they find us, andy?
What else?
Speaker 1 (51:15):
great question they find you at the breath geek and
they find me at andy esam.
And there's also a fantasticwebsite called richard l blake
dot com.
Speaker 2 (51:25):
Oh yes, check it out it's.
Speaker 1 (51:29):
It's brimming with blog posts, but we do put a blog
about every episode, so if youwant to read more about the
episode, check that out on mywebsite and also I'd encourage
you to go on the vivo websiteand look at all the testimonials
and sciencey bits, becauseobviously we couldn't fit all of
that into a 45 minute episodeyeah, and the newsletter.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
Now we're doing the newsletter coming out bi-weekly
and there's extra, additionalcontent, additional insights
from me, and you'll be kept upto date with what's going on for
us over here at the show allright until next time.
Speaker 1 (52:06):
Bye.
Hi Rich, I'm just going to hook the listeners in
here.
What's wrong with our shoes?
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Wow, what an interesting hook.
I bet the listener is desperateto find that out.
What are so many things?
Andy Gosh, did you know how badour shoes were for us?
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Yeah, I didn't actually, and it's one of those
episodes that bothsimultaneously, I was genuinely
hooked by it but also quiteworried, and I had a sort of
playback of all the things Iused to do when I was little.
For example, I used to try andget smaller football boots,
because I think I heard one timeand that made you better, if
you like cram your feet into afootball boot that was slightly
too small.
(00:35):
God knows where I got that from.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Um, and all the horrendous mistakes I made with
footwear and still continue tomake yeah, yeah, um my, you know
he liked to have a lot of funwith me, and one of the ways he
would get into my mind wastelling me that my feet were too
big.
Really, yeah, I think there's abit of self-consciousness as
well.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Because obviously your feet grow a bit before you
do, and I was walking aroundwith like size 9s when I was
sort of 12 or something and itjust looked so stupid.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
So I think 12 or something.
It just looked so stupid, so Ithink that probably had a role
to play in it, and now I'veprobably buggered up my feet as
a result.
So, um, but it's notirredeemable, is it?
No, there's plenty of ways youare going to learn, listener,
how you can be saved.
Saved like just yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
I mean, it is like a religious saving in some regard
I think it was genuinely veryeye-opening and I I wasn't um
insincere when I said I'm gonnaget myself down to the vivo
barefoot store in covent garden.
Um, I've actually been a whileago, but I think I bottled it on
fashion grounds, but I've seensome of the designs and they are
actually pretty sick these days.
So, and now I'm doing this, Isuppose I've got a bit more
(01:41):
credibility.
You know, in the wellness world, they'll probably expect me to
to be wearing vivos, won't they?
Really, if they ever see me in,in, uh, in anything other,
they'll be disappointed big time, big time.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yeah, I think the fashion industry in the
biohacking world is quite aweird one.
So you've got regular peoplewho just turn up in you know
just normal clothes.
Then you have the extremebiohackers who are all wearing
these like, really like quiteweird stuff, like they're all
wearing like vivos with you knowmassive toe boxes, and then
they all seem to wear thesemassive cargo pants like cargo
(02:13):
pants yeah because they've gotso many like devices and
biohacks in their pocket.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
I'm guessing they need 20 pockets yeah, they've
all got weird like weird, weirdnecklaces and things.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
And then they've obviously got the orange glasses
and things.
When you say they, you're oneof them, Rich.
Well, I tried to balance it.
I tried to look like a coolnormie slash.
Ooh, he's got some slightlyyellow glasses there.
He's a bit quirky.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Well, you're going to have to address me for the
biohacking conference next yearin Austin.
Yes, I'm going to look like afish out of water, I think, just
um, just going nuts.
I'll wear the glasses, I'llwear the cargo pants.
Obviously I'll have my vivobarefoot and um, yeah, you know,
yeah, I might even just walkaround with a red light as well
just walking around flashingpeople.
(02:59):
Yeah with my red light.
Yeah, that's what I meant.
What did you think I meant?
But anyway, who's we got ontoday from vivo barefoot?
Speaker 2 (03:07):
yeah, we've got philip anthony mangan, another
model.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
So yeah, he was a good-looking chap.
I thought I wasn't going to sayanything because I thought it
was a bit irrelevant, but yeahyes, uh, it wasn't particularly
relevant to to the show, butthat's that's.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
You know, if you're watching on youtube, check,
check that out check it out,yeah so we learn all sorts about
the history of of shoes and whythey've been messing up, how we
can recover from the torturethat we've been placing our
shoes in, and, yeah, some sortof wider themes as well.
You know, running through sortof like foot orthorexia is that
a thing?
Have people become too obsessedwith foot health and what's the
(03:42):
sort of the antidote for that?
Speaker 1 (03:44):
yeah, I think that they do seem like a genuinely
good company and I thought I hadno idea the association to
clark's footwear, which isobviously a very um,
well-established brand in the uk.
So they obviously got the kindof um credentials behind them
and they also seem like a veryethical, uh and yeah, spot on
brand.
(04:04):
So, yeah, I hope you enjoylistening about them and what
you can do for your feetlistener.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Hey listener, if you're enjoying the insights and
stories we share on our pod,then don't miss out on any of
our episodes.
Hit the subscribe button todownload and listen to our
conversations at yourconvenience.
At your convenience.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Philip, welcome to the show.
I'm going to start you off niceand easy.
What is wrong with our shoes?
Speaker 3 (04:37):
That is an easy one.
Well, first off, thanks forhaving me, and that is a
question that I don't think mostpeople realize.
Hence, we've been wearing thesame shoes since we've been born
and we've been marketed to in acertain way and we just think
it's normal.
But when you look at the modernshoe, there's a couple things
wrong with it.
It's not.
(04:58):
It doesn't have a wide toe box,it doesn't allow your toes to
splay.
Naturally you're jamming yourtoes into a small, small, small
area and then it's cushioned.
So then you're not able toconnect to the ground and
activate the actual muscles inyour foot and then it's very
rigid.
So most modern shoes youwouldn't be able to roll up in a
(05:21):
ball.
So then it is not allowing your, your foot and ankle to move
how it was intended to move.
Thus you're not able to buildthat strength in your ankle.
So you know, that's why I thinka lot of people refer to like I
need ankle support.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Well, that's because you just have weak ankles, but
it's usually because of theshoes are there any other ways
that the shoes are harming us,like they call it, like back
problems and things like that?
Speaker 3 (05:47):
well, yeah, I mean, and that's where I think that
you can go from the cushion tothe heel.
So anytime you you have a heel,the larger the heel, the more
obviously you're, you're,disconnected from the ground and
and out of out of balance.
I guess you would say so.
Your alignment like so.
Think about this like if you'rewalking around on a heel and
(06:08):
not a very flat surface,connected from the ground and
out of balance, I guess youwould say so.
Your alignment like so.
Think about this like if you'rewalking around on a heel and
not a very flat surface, you'regoing to be putting the majority
of your weight on one part ofyour foot and that basically
messes up the whole kineticchange.
So it's like, basically, yourfoot, your feet, are the
foundation for the rest of yourbody, so if you're out of whack
in your feet, then it goes allthe way up and essentially, a
lot of people have back painbecause of that.
(06:29):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
And so I suppose, why should we wear barefoot shoes?
It's probably worth saying atthis point you work for a
company called Vivo or Vivo, howdo I say it?
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Vivo.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Vivo Okay cool.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
And so why should we wear barefoot shoes?
Well, yeah, I kind of justtouched on that first question.
Basically, so you know our feet, so our feet can move how they
were intended to move, our feetand ankles.
So, and then, essentially, sowe can have better balance and
stronger feet and and createless, less pain for ourselves
and less um potential chances ofinjury yeah, I think, uh, I'm
(07:09):
doing some further breathworktraining at the moment and they
were just did a little video onhow our feet affect our
breathing.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
So you know these people were suggesting you know
we kind of foam roll or golfball roll our feet and we did
that exercise and when wemassaged our feet our breathing
became more open.
So it's like our feet are notdid that exercise and when we
massaged our feet our breathingbecame more open.
So it's like our feet are notjust these little things we cram
in these little boxes, but theyaffect so much more of our body
that's.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
Yeah, that's amazing, honestly.
Like when you start doing, youknow, if you, if you get into
like obviously, pat like first,obviously maybe one of the
things that you do is just getbarefoot.
And if you start doing certainlike things trying to do,
they're called.
It's called like toe exercise,like toga, it's called when you
start seeing how much our bodyis connected.
If you're doing these toeexercises, trying to like,
(07:57):
potentially, raise one of yourtoes, your big toe, up, and keep
the other ones down, you'llstart seeing your hands kind of
like maneuver a little bit.
But that's just because we'reconnected.
You know, we're trying to andwe don't realize, like we're
just so disconnected down therebecause we have this big barrier
between us and the ground andmost people go, most people go
(08:17):
all day just wearing shoes likethat, and obviously they don't
think anything of it.
So, um, you know, and then, asyou mentioned, with the breath,
work it's think anything of it.
So, um, you know, and then, asyou mentioned, with the breath,
work it's the more you'rereleasing that tension.
There it's allowing you to relaxmore.
Yeah, so what?
Speaker 1 (08:32):
happened?
Like is it?
Was it just a slow corruptionof, um you know, the fashion
industry, having this big impacton us and us hearing that
pointy is fashionable, or?
Speaker 3 (08:41):
I realize it's not your responsibility, by the way,
philip I should say yeah, Imean, I don't know exactly what
happened, but I think it's likeanything in life.
I think there was goodintentions behind it and then
slowly it starts shifting, youknow little, but little by
little, and then that justbecomes the norm and I think you
don't really need to correct aproblem if, like you, already
(09:03):
have the tool, the proper tools.
You, you know your foot.
I mean, essentially, it's niceto have some protection on the
bottom of your foot in caseyou're walking over different
terrains.
You don't want to get your footcut on glass and all this
different stuff or even rocks.
But I think when it started ithad good intention of protection
.
And then it just slowly, overtime, the heel got bigger, the
(09:26):
cushion got more and you'retrying to look for advancements
in the shoe.
How do you get people to keepbuying things?
You try to create the nextversion, the next best version.
Well, you don't need to createthe next best version if you
already have it.
You were born with it.
So I think it's just one ofthose things you know, as we've
seen probably in our lifetimes,it's just slow, the slow build,
(09:50):
and then it just becomes likeeven now you start seeing some
of the shoes that they're comingout with is crazy, like how big
the cushion is and how like,and I mean, is there and they
say it's technology.
Is it really technology?
Is it really helping us?
And I think that to bedetermined in in reality.
I mean it's.
It obviously allows us to docertain things at a quicker
(10:11):
speed, like, like, run, butyou're running.
You're running might becompletely wrong from it and
you're you're runningdisconnected and so, yeah, I
think it's, it just happenedover time.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
I guess it's the simplest answer yeah, and so
I've heard of friends who've gotquite flat feet and then they
get given shoes.
They've got one of those reallybig artificial arches in.
Is that completely the wrongapproach then?
Speaker 3 (10:35):
from what I'm hearing , well, I know the science
behind flat feet a little bitmore, very briefly, but I just
know, like usually flat feet,unless there's a couple
different types of flat feet andthere's more.
Very briefly, but I just know,like usually flat feet, unless
there's a couple of differenttypes of flat feet, and there's
only a very, very smallpercentage of people with flat
feet that actually need to makea actual bigger shift in their
(10:56):
footwear with like adjustments.
And I think it doesn't hurt tohave like some arch support to
start.
And when you start, you want tobuild a strong arch.
You're starting, you start witha insert, but the thing is
people usually just think thatthey need it and they continue
to have it and it's like almostkind of like a bandaid.
It's like, hey, this is helpingme, but you're not able to
(11:18):
develop the arch if you're notactually using that insert.
So I think that's the issue here.
It's like with a lot of people,even with like plantar
fasciitis, it really is just aweakness of the foot.
So then they're putting insertsin but you're not actually able
to activate and you'reobviously in these shoes that
aren't allowing you to activatethe muscles in your foot.
(11:39):
So then it's obviously justagain.
It might feel good at first butover time you're just, you
still have that same issue.
So I think a lot of our likefoot problems, that we think we
can be corrected from like aquick fix of like an insert,
just really need actually to putin the time and work.
And the simplest thing you cando is just being barefoot more
(12:00):
often and then, if you can't bebarefoot, you can get into a
pair of shoes that replicatebeing barefoot, like our shoes
yeah, this reminds me of a themewe came up in our last episode
with this guy, craig.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
He's a men's worker and it's just all these sort of
things we do to make our lifeeasier actually come back to
bite us and we're just, you know, we're no longer resilient our
feet I've been.
We think we're making solving aproblem by putting shoe lifts
on or arch supports and we'reactually making ourselves weaker
.
And yeah, we just need to buildup some strength in in in our
(12:35):
feet.
And yeah, I I had that problem.
I had plantar fasciitis for fora long time and yeah, I went to
a foot specialist and theycreated custom insoles with
really supportive arches and itdidn't didn't go away.
I could kind of manage theproblem.
It didn't get any worse.
Then I switched to fiber,barefoot and doing those toe
(12:56):
lifts toga, like you said, andyeah, I haven't really had
plantar fasciitis since.
So for me it was a real gamechanger.
One other question I have islike I've had the toe lift in
regular shoes.
It's quite bad, like how we'realmost like, yeah, the shoes
that they have a high heel andthen the toes go up at the end.
How big of a problem is that?
Speaker 3 (13:18):
yeah, well, number one obviously, usually the toe
lift is not only lifted, but,yeah, I mean, the toe box is not
only lifted, but it is small.
So then, not only is it notallowing your toes to connect to
the ground, but it's notallowing them to display, and
the big toe is actually thefoundation of our stability.
(13:40):
So that's actually why wedeveloped the big toe it was to
actually keep us to stand and tobe stable.
So that's probably the onething that you see most often is
people, and we have this toolthat we use when we do events.
It's called a plantar pressureplate, and you get on, you stand
(14:01):
on, you can stand on with yourshoes on, but we show people,
hey, this is how it looks withyour shoes on.
You usually can't see your footand you're just saying, hey,
well, how are you evenactivating your feet?
But then when you put it on,when you put, take your shoes
off and you get on there, youactually usually most people you
won't see their toes beingactivated there, and that's the
(14:22):
problem.
It's like most people, as thecushion and the heels are doing,
is making us have this likelittle lean back almost, and
then when you look at that isthat really posture.
If you're not standing straightup, you're always leaning back
almost in a way.
So the toe not being able toactivate that big toe is a very
(14:43):
big problem.
So we usually will prescribehow to correct that is doing
those toe exercises, becausethat you're just starting to and
it's very challenging, don'tget me wrong, it's.
It definitely takes some timeand effort.
But again, like if you'relooking at it from like a
longevity standpoint and anoverall health standpoint, like
(15:04):
anything, it's what you have todo, the work it's.
It's like if you want to be fitand into later in life, you've
got to stay active, you have tobe doing the things, you have to
be eating well, it's not like,hey, I'm just taking a pill and
then I'm fine, so I did there it.
Feet are the same thing.
There is no magic pill to it,but it's the actual, the easiest
(15:27):
way you can actually startreversing this whole issues with
your feet is just really justgetting getting barefoot more
often.
I mean, it's simple as that andit's actually it's free.
You don't necessarily need tobuy the shoes, especially if you
work from home, you know.
Be barefoot all day and exposeyour feet to different elements,
like even even your toes.
(15:47):
There's different like littletools that you can do for, like
balance and like gripping withyour, gripping your toes.
But there's lots of exercises,even just you know that you can
do with a you know towel, grabswith your toes and that, and
that's super simple.
So, yeah, I'm glad you pointedout and it's like yeah, like,
yeah, it almost creates thatrocking motion when you don't,
when you're not able to and Ithink that's probably what's
(16:08):
allowing people to, to even getmaybe a little bit quicker is
you're not actually even on theground as long yeah, um, what
you said there about it beingdifficult, it's amazingly
difficult.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
when I was trying to do the um, keep your big toe
down and lift up your other fourtoes and then go back and
forward.
Listen, you might want to givethis a try.
So, yeah, you press your fourtoes into the ground and lift
your big toe up and then youswap.
When you press your big toedown and lift the other four up,
I do like three sets of 10 onthat.
When I first started, I couldnot do it at all.
(16:41):
I was just staring at my feetfor like five minutes.
I was in a physical therapycenter and it just looked like I
was like a mad person juststaring at my feet with nothing
happening.
I was trying to make my feetmove but I couldn't.
Eventually, after a few weeksof practice, it became just like
doing it with my hands, but Ijust completely lost that
connection between my brain andmy feet.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Yeah, that, and it's good that you pointed out like
the brain connection, becausethat's I mean, if you look back
when we first started walking,it's not like it.
Actually you'll see, mostpeople are not putting their
babies right in a pair of shoes,because that's actually how you
get that sensory feedback.
So it's like, and we'rebasically blocking our sensory
(17:24):
feedback and we've we've blockedit for so many years, like, and
we're basically blocking oursensory feedback and we've we've
blocked it for so many yearsthat now we're just we just
think it's the norm kind ofthing, and and and that's the
problem where, when it comes todoing those little toe exercises
, that makes it so frustratingyeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Another exercise I like is is marbles picking up
marbles like 30 marbles and thenputting them in a bucket with
your toes.
That's quite a fun one that isa good one.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Yeah, you know how to live rich oh yes, that's,
that's how I have my fun Ithought you did the golf ball
thing, rolling the golf ball onthe.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah, so that's for me that's for massage, and you
know getting rid of um, you knowtension and things like that.
But then you also need tostrengthen the feet as well.
But you know, one thing I don'tknow so much is the toe spaces.
Vivo sell those, don't they?
Why?
Why should we use those?
Speaker 3 (18:15):
well, we don't make them specifically, but now we
actually have them on our ourwebsite with one of our partners
, neboso.
But yeah, toe spaces are greatbecause obviously it kind of
helps in that getting that splaya bit more and letting the toes
kind of uh, yeah, just loosenup, I guess your best way to put
it.
So when I before I even gotinto wearing vivos, I think
(18:36):
that's a very good easy entrytool for people to use and and
usually you'll see, like you putthem on and but you're, you're
not able to wear them long time,like a long period of time,
because your toes will actuallystart to hurt because they're
being like almost forced backinto the natural position they
had.
But it's been so long sincethey've been there and
(18:57):
unfortunately, yeah, it'll hurt.
But over time it actually kindof helps, kind of, I guess not
say speed up the process,because it's not a speedy
process and I think it just ithonestly helps getting you used
to having that splay a bit moreand maybe, once you do have a
little bit more of a room inbetween your toes, it makes it
almost those toe exercises alittle bit easier, because
you're actually used to havingthem splay like that.
(19:19):
So yeah, they're.
They're a great tool and veryeasy entry point.
You can get a pair for likeprobably $10 and put them on and
wearing them, you can even wearthem.
What's cool about it isactually you can even wear them
in Vivo barefoot shoes.
So I had one of my colleagues.
He kind of got me into the toesocks as well, so then it's like
he was wearing the toe socks,then he had toe spacer on top of
(19:42):
that, and then in the Vivos andit's like you're fully just
like splayed the whole whole day.
So it's it.
There's levels to it, you know,and and I mean honestly, it
really just depends on how, howcrazy you want to get.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
But I mean the, the general level is just being
barefoot often and then evenmaybe using toe spacers yeah, I,
I can remember seeing my mygrandmother's feet, years of
pointing pointy shoes and justlike she was in all sorts of
pain, like bunions and like toes, you know, curling in over each
other.
So that was sort of like theextreme end of it.
(20:17):
It's like if you wear theseshoes for like 80 years, your
feet become malformed and theystart to hurt you.
So I mean, that's sort of the avery, a very good reason to not
wear these really pointy shoesall the time and to get a bit.
It's not just about gettingoptimal, it's about avoiding
pain as well.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, the bunions thing is.
You just pointed that out.
It's like, yeah, like that'show bunions.
It's not like really like ahereditary thing, it's actually
like just from you jamming yourfeet into a space and then it's
creating the muscle, like thegrowth.
Because of that, your feet arejammed in and you're not able to
actually let your feetnaturally splay.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
So tell us what Vivo offers.
Obviously, there are otherbarefoot brands out there, but
we want to know what's specialabout Vivo.
Yeah, what's really specialabout Vivo offers.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
Obviously there are other barefoot brands out there,
but we want to know what'sspecial about Vivo.
Yeah, what's what's reallyspecial about Vivo?
And actually, like, when Ifirst learned about the company,
it kind of caught my eye themost.
They're very big into thesustainability and they're
trying to be regenerative aspossible with, like the footwear
that they create.
So they are a certified B Corpand you don't really see that I
(21:26):
mean I'm not sure if there's anyother brand in the footwear
industry that is a B Corp it'sbecause the supply chain is just
it's a crazy.
A lot of times you'll see likemost shoes are.
They have like 25 or 30 touchpoints.
So it's very hard to besustainable in the footwear
industry.
But that's vivo's goal.
It's not about just connectingpeople back to nature and
(21:48):
connecting yourself to theground.
It's actually they.
They believe by connectingpeople back to nature, they
actually want to take care of itand I think that's and that
goes for us like as a company.
It's like we want to set thatexample.
It's not like we're not justcreating a piece of footwear for
your health, it's like for thehealth of the planet and that's
the I think the real cool partabout it is it's.
(22:10):
They're always looking about it.
How can we do better and howcan we create less waste?
Speaker 2 (22:17):
yeah, and it's interesting that it was set up
by one of the family, the sonsof the clark's family, right.
So in the us I don't thinkclarks are very famous, but all
my, all my shoes when I was akid were from from clarks.
They were, you know, huge, hugeshop franchise album.
That was a franchise butshoemaker in the uk yeah, no,
it's.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
It's a real cool, like when you hear the story, go
to these company events andeven get to talk to the founders
, their seventh generationcobblers, and I think that's
actually, if you look way back.
It's kind of like how Clarkstarted, in a way of like
wanting a wider toe box, like anactual foot shaped shoe.
(22:58):
So it's just even for them too.
They probably steered away fromthat over time, just happened
to be that way, but it is reallycool to see that they're, you
know, this seventh generationfamily and then they're trying
to actually correct the damagethat's been done, in a way, from
many shoes and what kind ofrange of footwear do you have?
(23:21):
Yeah, we honestly we make it all, which is pretty amazing.
I don't know many othercompanies doing that.
And yeah, we have obviously awhole fitness range and we have
outdoor range boots, trailrunning shoes, and then we have
a big category of lifestyleshoes when it comes to like
sneakers, everyday wear, tosandals, to lifestyle boots.
(23:45):
So it's it continues to kind ofgrow, I think, in that realm,
because I think one thing thatpeople don't realize, especially
like in the, when it comes tobarefoot shoes, it's like the
more you wear them, the morebenefits you're going to have.
So you'll see a lot of peoplein the, in the training space,
wearing vivos, I think becausethey understand the science
(24:05):
behind it most especially likethe trainers and physios,
chiropractors, all the healthprofessionals.
They understand vivo prettywell.
But in the training spacespecifically, you'll see people
either barefoot in the gym ormaybe wearing vivos, know Vivos
or another barefoot shoe, butwhen they get out into the gym
they put their feet back inthose shoes again.
(24:28):
The small toe box, the thicksoles, and there's just this big
disconnect that actually, inreality, you'll get more
benefits if you don't even youknow if you're not wearing them
in the gym.
If you're wearing them.
I think the main study that wasdone it was done by like Oxford
university is like I think itwas done over like a six month
period of time.
It's if you wear vivosbasically like six days a week,
(24:51):
I guess you would say like 80%of your time over a six month
period.
The studies show that you canincrease your foot strength up
to I think it was like 58%.
So it was like 58%.
So it was like just by walkingaround in them everyday life,
you're increasing your footstrength and I think that's
probably where the disconnect isthere in the but also it comes
(25:12):
from, like, our desire to befashionable.
I think and I never used tothink like barefoot shoes were
that fashionable Like when Ifirst learned about them.
I think it was.
I discovered Vivo in like like2018 after I got, like my
personal training certification.
I just kind of was able toconnect the dots of like you
know, being barefoot is isbetter for you, and I just
(25:33):
remember seeing their, theirrange and being like I'd wear
these to train in, but I don'treally see any like fashion
staples of like in my wardrobe,but now it's that's one of their
biggest focuses, like causethat's.
I think, believe like that'show you get the general
population is you createsomething that's not only
functional, that is actually hassome fashion to it as well.
(25:53):
So, there's the growing range ofthe lifestyle, but I'd say we
are probably we've been the mostpopular in the in the
performance range.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah, that is.
I'd echo that point that when Ifirst started wearing vivos, I
felt a little bit self-consciousabout it, but now, yeah, the
designs have really improved.
I love the new motor strengthones.
I think they're the bestlooking ones and they're the
best for like training, crossfit, and we were speaking off air
about professional athleteswearing Vivos, but I think
CrossFitters professionalCrossFitters could be wearing
Vivos or perhaps should be.
(26:28):
But yeah, do you want toelaborate on that point about
athletic shoes?
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Yeah, I mean, as you, as you guys know, it's like I
mean most athletic shoes arethey?
They fall into the samecategory, just like smaller toe
box and they, and also likecushion, especially when it
comes to like basketball playersand stuff like that and it's
and and usually they're they'rerigid as well.
So there's, they're actuallyfalling into the same category,
just like most modern day shoes,but where we see kind of like
(26:55):
the, the athletes using vivos isnot on the court or on the
field, it's it's actually offthe court and off the field for
their training, so basicallybeing able to strengthen their
feet and ankles.
So when they actually get ontothe court it actually enhances
their performance and it's been.
It's been really cool to see alot more athletes in our shoes.
We've been.
A lot of people are reaching outto us, whether it's the
(27:18):
trainers from the teams oragents with the players
interested in trying them out,and for us it's like I think
when you see it from like in theperformance space and on the
athletic, like pro sports level,you know that it actually is
going to make a very strongimpact, because pro athletes
(27:38):
wouldn't be doing usingsomething unless they actually
believed in it that it wouldenhance their performance and I
think they're understanding thescience now.
Especially their trainers areusually the ones introducing it
to them.
So I think a lot of excitingpossibilities in that space for
athletes that have only done itone way, especially basketball
players.
You think about that?
(27:59):
It's like they're reallydisconnected from the ground and
their feet and they use.
Obviously they're going in alldifferent types of direction on
the court and a lot of peoplehave, like ankle sprains or
Achilles issues and all thesedifferent things that could
actually might even be preventedby actually just having
stronger feet for when theyactually get on the court.
(28:19):
So it's exciting times that nowit's getting recognized
barefoot shoes for actually, oreven just more barefoot training
yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
There are some sort of.
There is a bit of a transitionto wearing barefoot, isn't there
?
I've worn them for running.
When I first started, I startedto get a little bit of shin
splints.
I also wore them for tennisonce and I got quite bad
blisters and things like that.
So so what?
How?
When people should are thinkingabout transitioning, what
should they think about?
Speaker 3 (28:47):
yeah, I mean it's.
I think the best way to likelook at it is think about it
this way like if, if you haven'tlike worked out, like you
didn't go to the gym for like amonth or two months, now say,
like, enhance that to like 20years of your life.
Like you go to the gym and youwork out, you're going to be
really sore the next day.
And especially if you work outreally hard like, hey, I'm going
(29:10):
to go out.
So it's a very same same withyour like your feet.
Your feet haven't been workedout.
Essentially they haven't.
They haven't been put throughthat.
So it's always best to kind oflike go slow and easy with the
transitioning.
We usually say wear them, tryit like, wear them around the
house for a little bit, wearthem outside for like a short
walk and kind of see what feelsgood and what doesn't feel good.
(29:35):
If it starts to feel likediscomfort, then maybe get out
of them and let your, your body,get used to them them.
So I think a lot of people havethe the issue with doing too
much in them to start.
So it's really better to startslow and easy, even for me, like
when I first got them and Ikind of learned, I kind of knew
about the transition a littlebit, but I, of course, like I
(29:55):
pushed a little too much and Iended up.
I ended up just running in them.
But that was also because I,before I got vivos, I I got
these like socks that were kindof like sock shoes in a way, so
very same, and I got up to likea 5k over time.
But it took a long, long timeto even get up to that and it
(30:27):
takes a long time to stay atthat level where you're.
I wouldn't say my feet are assore, but my calves, they feel
it the most, I think, wheneverI'm going a further distance.
But yeah, it's one of thosethings where you just need to
take it slow and easy and andjust listen to your body.
To be honest, I think that'sthe best way to do it, like all
things, like if, if you'refeeling it, then back out and
(30:50):
then see how you're feelingtomorrow and then maybe get back
in them and go a little bitfurther.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
And are we wearing socks with Vivo, or ideally not?
Speaker 3 (30:58):
Yeah, I mean you treat them like they're um
regular shoes.
I mean I, I mean you can, youdon't have to wear socks with
them, but I, I treat them likethey're regular shoes, as in
like to reduce the smell andyeah, that's what I'm thinking
from a hygiene point of viewyeah, yeah, that's really where
it is, I mean, but yeah, like uh, you don't have to wear them.
I guess that's the best way toput it and when you're running
(31:21):
27k, you which?
Speaker 2 (31:22):
which model are you wearing, like the primus light
or the special trail runningshoes?
Speaker 3 (31:28):
yeah, I was wearing one of the special trail running
shoes there.
They have like a michelin sole,so like michelin tires, it's a
very rugged sole, so and thatwas that was actually very
helpful for the mountain run andwe were going over different
terrains and it was actuallyvery helpful for the mountain
run.
We were going over differentterrains and it was actually the
one that I wore was the HydraESC, which is actually made for
swim runs also and just made todrain very quickly and
(31:53):
thankfully I wore those onesbecause it was very, very muddy,
wet terrain so I wasn't reallyafraid of of jumping in the mud
and the funny thing was watching, actually, other people that
didn't have vivos on going intothe like, into like the mud or
other things, and you can justsee how unstable they were and
when you're going into thesedifferent elements, how you're
(32:15):
cause if you have that cushionand you're going into this like
terrain, that's not very likeallowing you to connect to the
ground.
It's almost like you're justmore prone to like an ankle roll
or falling down where were youdoing that run?
Speaker 2 (32:27):
not not in florida, I hope.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
100 degrees humidity not in, not in florida, actually
did it in sweden.
Um, yeah, so it was.
Yeah, it was beautiful,honestly, and I I kind of
decided to do it last, likewithin like the the week prior
to it, and I wouldn't say like Iwas 100% trained up to go that
far, but I would say that like Ijust was like all right, I'm
(32:50):
gonna take it slow and easy, andthere's a lot of elevation gain
, so it was like you're walkingup the hills more so and then
just running down them andthrough the other areas.
But yeah, it was beautiful.
I mean, I couldn't pass uprunning in that beautiful
location, even though there wasother distances.
It was actually like aweek-long running event, so it
was cool.
And Vivo was actually one ofthe main sponsors for the event,
(33:12):
so it was cool to kind of seepeople's interest in the shoes.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
And you mentioned, it's very much like a growth
industry.
I think I'm seeing them moreand more on the streets of
London.
Does that mean the kind of thescience is catching up and in
terms of like medical knowledgeas well?
Because I'm just thinking?
I know people with bunions andnot once has their doctor
recommended a change of footwear.
It's always oh, you can getthese corrective splints or you
(33:39):
can get quite expensive andprobably very painful operations
.
So I mean, is the science now?
Speaker 3 (33:48):
catching up with the idea that these things can
actually really help your feet.
Yeah, I believe so.
I think it's about getting theright educators on board to
educate people.
I mean, at the end of the day,when you think about anything
that changes over time, it allstarts with an open mind by you,
the consumer, also you, theeducator, and I think, with all
these different health tools andadvances that are people's
(34:11):
interest in how to biohack theirhealth, it's really, I think,
opening the door for Vivo a bitmore.
And it's kind of honestly, whenyou think about it in general,
it's like one of the simplestways you can do it is just be
barefoot more and then, if youunderstand that being barefoot
more, then you say, hey, well,how can I replicate this
throughout the rest of my daywhen I can't be barefoot?
(34:33):
And then you get into the shoes, but I do believe it.
Just, yeah, people are justbeing more open-minded.
And I think, also, when youthink about it from a
generational standpoint, youhave this group that you know
maybe have older people thathave been taught a certain way
and that are harder to change.
Then you start seeing theyounger crowd of educators come
in that are more open-minded andthat are learning different
(34:56):
sciences than the people abovethem, and I think that's
probably where it's starting tocatch on more and people are
picking up on it.
And then again it goes intomaybe it's going into multiple
areas education, but also thelooks of it, and then the
popularity and it's like kind ofalmost like boiling up in
different areas to where itactually is creating more of a
buzz, which is, yeah, it'sreally cool.
(35:17):
I know, obviously whenever I goto London, that store is packed
.
There's always a long lineoutside of it and it's just
really cool to see that peopleare willing to wait in line to
get into this store and purchaseshoes that are barefoot, and
I'm excited to see whenever Vivogets their first store in the
(35:38):
US.
I think it might take some timeto grow to that level where
it's a line out.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
But I do think there's a big opportunity here.
Yeah, and can you talk a littlebit about how you're, how
you're trying to position it inthe market?
I know you work with proathletes.
Is that right?
And what's your like marketingstrategy?
How are you kind of getting themessage out there?
Speaker 3 (35:56):
yeah, I would say in multiple areas.
I'd say like, obviously, theathletes is.
We haven't really dove into thethe marketing aspect of the
athlete show.
It's really just about gettingit on their feet.
That's that's where it allstarts, with everyone is you.
You get the shoes on someone'sfeet and then, especially if at
a pro level, it carries into thelocker room with the rest of
the athletes and then theinfluence of athletes and
(36:19):
professional level is isobviously helpful to grow a
brand which there's again somuch possibility with that.
So I'm excited to for us to getto that point where we're
actually potentially havingsomeone, whether it's in a
baseball player athlete orsomeone in the NBA.
We do have John John Florencethe surf, the professional
(36:39):
surfer, who we partnered up with, which has been very helpful
for the brand growth.
So, yeah, I think it's all aboutbeing very strategic in
different ways.
Obviously, we're focused on theyounger generation as well,
because when you get the youngergeneration in and they
understand it, then it's andalso I think the younger
generation is a bit moreopen-minded to these different
(37:00):
health you know the benefits ofVivo but also the environment,
caring for the environment,which is obviously what Vivo is
all about.
So I think, when you look at itfrom a marketing standpoint, you
focus on the people that aremore open-minded, rather than
being needing to correct andreally convince someone on a
greater level that it might beharder to convince on like
(37:21):
someone that's done something 50, 60 years of their life.
But I do think overall we'rediving into different areas, but
it all starts with theeducation and finding great
educators to actually explain topeople why our shoe is
different than the modern shoe.
And that's not the easiest job,especially if you're not
(37:46):
open-minded.
But there's a lot of greatpeople that we work with that
are actually generating, helpinggrow the brand, and it's really
exciting to see I mean, I'vebeen with vivo now for um almost
two years and it's just reallycool to see, like how much of an
impact some of these peoplethat that we're partnering up
with have yeah, that that growthmindset I think is is what vivo
(38:09):
has and I think it's what allour our guests have and all our
kind of listeners have.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
And I think, yeah, there's that, that term from
carol dweck, the growth mindset.
I think there are probably,let's say, 50 of the people have
a growth mindset.
50 of people are just, theydon't want to change.
And I get very frustrated when,you know, speaking to people
who just they just want a reasonnot to change, they don't want
any discomfort.
But uh, yeah, vivo reallyembody that growth mindset.
(38:37):
They're always looking to grow,always looking to improve.
And I I've went into thatcovent garden shop and met ben
lavisconte and had like startedhaving a great chat with him and
then just realized, yeah, hewas completely on the same
wavelength as me.
I did a breathwork session forhim and I think he had a very
good experience and we did anatalia and I did a breath
(38:58):
workshop in that shop in coventGarden.
So we did conscious connectedbreathing on the floor of the
shop, uh, with with a load ofpeople from Vivo and yeah, it
was awesome.
But yeah, just going on to aslightly more technical question
, um, I think some people justuh, you know they are fashion
(39:19):
conscious, I, you know guilty.
I am barefoot most of the timeand I train in Vivo barefoots.
How much damage am I doing If Igo into, like, a pair of vans
you know I want to go out todinner and the vans look better
with what I'm wearing how muchdamage am I doing from wearing
shoes for like three to fourhours?
Speaker 3 (39:41):
Oh, I mean, I think I think again you can almost go
back to the study that I've kindof quoted.
I think as long as you're inthem, in the barefoot shoes or
being barefoot the majority ofthe time, you're not really
doing a whole lot of damage,like I think again it's.
I think it's the opposite.
If you're to flip-flop that andyou were like, hey, I'm going
(40:02):
to be in my vans the rest of thetime and only be in Vivo's like
three, four hours, you're kindof missing out on the benefits.
So I mean, I don't think evenVivo expects everyone to, you
know, have every single shoethat they own, a barefoot shoe.
I mean also, that wouldprobably go against our company
mission of, like, creating morewaste.
(40:23):
It's not like, hey, go throwaway all your shoes.
I mean I, if I go to a wedding,I'll still put my, my feet in a
.
I put it into a coffin, I guess, and I don't really worry.
I just I just noticed thedifference, that's the best way
to put it.
Like I'm not thinking like, oh,this is going to reverse
everything.
(40:43):
It's just like my feet hurtmore when I'm in those shoes,
you know, and I want to get themout of there.
So it actually is like not alot of damage, but I think
you'll notice the difference,that especially the more you
actually are barefoot and you gointo a shoe that might look
more fashionable, but you'llprobably notice the difference
and not want to be in it for aslong.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Yeah, and there definitely are a lot of people
in the biohacking world who areextreme, who have probably
burned all their regular shoesand just bought bought vivos.
I definitely know some peoplewho only ever wear vivos and
chiropractors who say you shouldnever wear anything but Vivo.
But I think that we need toinvent a term like orthorexia.
(41:26):
You know, food obsession andthere is now like a tracker
obsession.
Apparently there is like amental health disorder where
people get so obsessed withtheir aura rings and things like
that.
Maybe there needs to be abarefoot shoe mental health
disorder word.
I mean we can coin that here.
Speaker 3 (41:41):
Yeah, I mean, it's like anything, it's it.
There's always going to bepeople that are on that extreme
approach of of doing things andit's like it's almost kind of
like like when I I want.
Actually, what kind of like ledme into like more of the?
The desire for more likesustainable brands is what, when
I went vegan and I went veganmore for like the, just I was
interested in like the healthaspect of it and but you know,
(42:05):
like I remember when I firstwent vegan and I saw these
people like the extremist of thevegan world and it's like, oh,
you can't do this or can't dothat.
I'm like, well, I'm going to doit my way.
That keeps me sane and like youknow, and I think that's the
thing it's like.
I think think you hear thismajority of the time too.
With even just any diet, it'slike if you eat clean, like
still 80% of the time you'regoing to be fine.
(42:28):
You know it's really when youflip it the opposite way, where
it's like it's bad for you.
So I think there's always goingto be scenarios where people
just want to go above and beyond.
Good for them there.
There's no harm in that, butalso there's no harm in putting
your foot in another shoe for alittle bit of time, and I think
there's a lot of room for growth, especially in the fashion
(42:50):
aspect of of barefoot shoes.
And I think we're, we're, we'reslowly seeing it and when it
gets there, maybe you'll find apair of vans that are like, or
vivos that look like vans, andthen you'd wear that.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
Yeah, it's another sort of theme that I see running
through so much of society.
It's like the people who arethe most mentally ill are the
ones who speak loudest.
You know, the people who arethe extreme carnivores and the
extreme vegans are the ones whoare most vocal.
Yet we don't realize that thesepeople probably have orthorexia
the ones who are most vocal yetwe don't realize that these
(43:23):
people probably have orthorexia.
And, yeah, they become thespokespeople because they're
full of rage.
And then it's the same thingwith, you know, religious
fundamentalists and politicalextremists.
It's always.
It's always the extremes thatsort of give everyone else like
a skewed idea of what normal isand what normal and what healthy
is.
But yeah, that's I think that'sthe message of this podcast.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
Just let's be normal yeah, I think, uh, I think we're
trying to do that.
Yeah, um, so let's say,someone's listened to this, they
are convinced, they are stillteetering on the edge of being
convinced by vivo.
Is there any way you can findkind of like or you can share
any stories or testimonials ofpeople using the shoe who've had
such significant benefits?
(44:04):
You mentioned the oxforduniversity study over the six
month period, but where can wehear more about vivo users?
Speaker 3 (44:12):
Yeah, I would go to the obviously social media page.
Vivo works with a lot of peoplethat have either used Vivos to
correct something or use itbecause they know the benefits
of it.
So they'll be able to explainthe different benefits in that
way on their website so you canread reviews over there too.
(44:34):
But yeah, it's, I think, likejust googling barefoot
testimonials.
I think you'll you'll find alot of people that have actually
corrected a lot of issues withthemselves, and I think that'd
probably be the best route to goon.
If you really want to dive intothe research more, I know like
vivo actually has a on theirwebsite.
We have a whole page set up tooabout the different science
(44:58):
behind everything, if anyone'skeen to dive more into it.
Speaker 1 (45:03):
I was thinking people might actually correct things
they don't even know areconnected to their feet.
To be honest, I think I'dprobably fall in that category.
If I've got a bad knee, Iwouldn't even cross my mind that
it would be to do with the wayI walk or my feet.
I'd actually dig into thescience.
Speaker 3 (45:18):
Yeah, I think.
I think honestly, it's likewith the knee pain.
A lot of people have knee painfrom like when they run and
stuff and it's like, uh, usuallythat's just like most.
I mean, when you're wearinglike modern day running shoes,
you're usually not landing likeproperly.
It's kind of messing up yourrunning form and then people
will see that correction of easeof pain, because when you're
(45:39):
wearing barefoot shoes, yourform kind of gets naturally
corrected because you can't landon your heel without it really
killing you.
You know it's like.
So over time people willunderstand how the proper
running form is.
Obviously there's tips andtools to like.
We do actually have a barefootrunning course.
We have a lot of educationalcourses on the website.
(46:00):
That is something to highlight.
But, like, over time usuallyyou'll you'll start seeing that
correction and then when you arelanding properly, then you're
you're not engaging like thoseareas that you're not supposed
to, and that's you'll see thepain relief interesting.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
Yeah, I'm, I'm, I've got to be honest, I'm, I've, I'm
not currently an owner of vivobarefoot shoes.
Um, I know my shoe size becauseI went into the store one time.
But this is, this is gonna tip,tip me into.
Uh, yeah, taking the plungenice, nice.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
I love that do you have like a discount code?
Speaker 3 (46:34):
yeah, I can, um, I can create one for you guys, if
you want, and then you can haveyour own own one that you can
share with the.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
You know this episode that's great, that's great,
thank you yeah, and where do wefind you for that?
Speaker 3 (46:47):
well, you can find me , um, go to my personal
instagram, philip anthony mangan.
Feel free to say hi if you haveany uh, you know questions.
If you listen to this episodeand you want to learn more, I
can either answer or I candirect you to the right person.
But, like Ben Levescante, likehe knows so much more, I'm
always excited to be aroundpeople that know more about the
(47:09):
barefoot shoes than me and justlike the science behind it, and
it's, I think, that's what'sgreat about the position I'm in.
I'm really around a lot ofeducators.
I'm even managing a lot ofpeople that are doing the
education and on another level,so it's, it's really cool to uh
to see and, yeah, I'm happy toyou know, help out in any way I
can awesome.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
Well, thank you very much for your time and, um, yeah
, vivo just seems like such agenuine and ethical brand, and I
actually didn't know anythingabout the history in terms of
Clark's family, and that's.
That's awesome.
Yeah, add some credibility asfar as I'm concerned.
So, yeah, keep going.
Keep up the good work.
Speaker 3 (47:46):
Yeah, yeah, I appreciate you guys.
Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2 (47:48):
All right, thank you, cheers, tony.
What are your key takeaways?
Our episode.
I knew you could ask me that,oh, really is that because you
asked me to ask it off air.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
Yeah, I asked.
I asked you to ask it justabout just before we went on air
the.
Um, I think we're genuine.
I'm genuinely going to go andget a pair, because if you see
the difference between how theend of a normal shoe tapers and
how vivo actually kind of look Imean it's chalk and cheese.
It couldn't be more oppositeand like the splayed look, I
don't know how I'm going to getused to it, fashion wise, but
(48:26):
I'm going to have to suck it upbecause, um, it seems we are
doing, uh, in some cases,irreparable damage to our feet
by cramming them into these.
Um, I can't remember the phrasehe used, but the small toe box
shoe, yeah, coffins foot coffinsyeah foot coffins.
Yeah, that's pretty dramatic,but yeah, it's um.
No, it's, it's irrefutablescience.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
It seems no one's going against that yeah, and I
think this is one of thosebiohacks that anyone can do.
You know a lot of people willbe like, oh, I don't really want
to change because I don't havethe time or I don't have the
money or things like that, andit's like, yeah, okay, um, well,
this is one that's sort of lessthan free.
You know, you just go barefootand then you'll wear out your
(49:11):
regular shoes less.
You'll spend less money on onshoes if you just take your
shoes off more.
Yes, um, so there's there's noreal excuses.
From that point of view, it's abit like cold showers.
You know they're.
They're less than free becauseyou're not spending the money on
on hot water.
Um, but yeah, my kind of advicefor for switching to to
(49:32):
barefoot shoes is obviously, Igo barefoot around the house as
much as possible.
Um, I really like the.
If you're going to the gym, Ireally like the motor strength
ones, and then they've got thesemotors flex ones as well and
they look really good.
Uh, I was actually in the gymand someone came up to me like,
oh, my god, are those vivos?
Like, oh my god, they look sogood.
I used to.
I looked into them a few yearsago and I didn't like the look
(49:52):
of them, but those look looksweet.
Um, I'm gonna go buy some.
And then the hiking boots yeah,we were just talking off air
about the hiking boots because Ithink they look really good as
well.
Like I think hiking boots.
Maybe it's not obviously not soimportant fashion in hiking as
it is with you know, lifestyleyourself gym shoes.
Speaker 1 (50:11):
I like to look incredibly well presented up the
mountain fair enough, um, but Ithink they look cool.
I think they look cooler thanregular hiking shoes yeah, I
think the reason I bottled it umfirst time I went into the vivo
store in covent garden isbecause I think it was just once
you get up to my size um, whichis the uk 11 and a half it.
It does look quite big andquite slippery um, but I think
(50:35):
you just got to suck it up andjust think well, I'm doing good
for my feet and there we go.
End of chat, but no a lot ofthe designs are very, very good.
Speaker 2 (50:44):
Yeah, and, as you said, you don't have to wear
them all the time.
You don't have to go on a firstdate and feel like I'm wearing
flippers.
You can wear your cool shoes,andy.
Yeah, okay shoes, andy.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
Yeah, okay, good to know.
All right.
Well, I hope you enjoyed theepisode as much as we did, and
also worth mentioning.
Um, very, very kindly.
Uh, philip has given us a codeto pass on to you 20 off vivo
barefoot, so there's really noexcuse to give them a go yes,
we'll put that in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (51:12):
And yes, where do they find us, andy?
What else?
Speaker 1 (51:15):
great question they find you at the breath geek and
they find me at andy esam.
And there's also a fantasticwebsite called richard l blake
dot com.
Speaker 2 (51:25):
Oh yes, check it out it's.
Speaker 1 (51:29):
It's brimming with blog posts, but we do put a blog
about every episode, so if youwant to read more about the
episode, check that out on mywebsite and also I'd encourage
you to go on the vivo websiteand look at all the testimonials
and sciencey bits, becauseobviously we couldn't fit all of
that into a 45 minute episodeyeah, and the newsletter.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
Now we're doing the newsletter coming out bi-weekly
and there's extra, additionalcontent, additional insights
from me, and you'll be kept upto date with what's going on for
us over here at the show allright until next time.
Speaker 1 (52:06):
Bye.
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