October 7, 2024 • 61 mins
Unlock the secrets to effective communication with our guest, Simone Tai, a seasoned speaking coach. We promise that by listening, you'll gain invaluable strategies to enhance your speaking skills, whether you're addressing a packed auditorium or a virtual meeting. Simone guides us through the essential elements of active listening and clear communication, helping you sidestep misunderstandings and improve your professional interactions.
We dive into tackling public speaking fears, exploring the anxiety that often accompanies stepping up to the podium. Discover why storytelling trumps data dumping and how focusing on your audience can transform a nerve-wracking monologue into an engaging dialogue. With personal anecdotes and expert advice, Simone sheds light on overcoming past traumas, like bullying, that may have shaped your speaking fears. Learn to question these narratives and find confidence in your voice.
We also highlight the unique hurdles of virtual communication and the art of dealing with criticism. From my personal journey of conquering imposter syndrome to creating the "Speak Like a Boss with Heart" program, you'll hear about blending mindset tools with speaking skills for TED-style authenticity. Whether facing criticism or seeking to reduce those pesky filler words, this episode is packed with insights on building self-trust and connecting with your audience on multiple levels. Join us for a compelling exploration of communication that promises to leave you inspired and empowered.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
People need to speak better, don't they?
Andy?
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Absolutely they do.
I think that goes for everyone.
By the sounds of it, evenpeople you aspire to speak like,
it sounds like even they makesome common mistakes.
So who have we got to help uswith that?
Speaker 1 (00:15):
on today's episode, we have Simone Tai.
She is a speaking coach.
Isn't that just what you needif you've got a speaking problem
?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
when I found that out , I did.
I was a bit nervous about um myown uh speech throughout the
episode, but she did.
She was very complimentaryabout us but she did also say
she was a people pleaser.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
But I think she was genuine in her feedback yeah, so
those are the things you'regoing to hear about today how to
speak better, whether it's thetone of your voice, whether it's
your resistance to criticismand things like going off on
tangents and the power ofight,or whatever a pause can feel
like an eternity, but just umremembering that what you're
(01:07):
saying is important, so bringingit uh.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Yeah, bringing it in um and I also I, uh, I really
enjoyed, um, her approach to theaudience, or your audience,
that they're the ones thatmatter, which obviously we know
on this show.
But you know, just keep, we'reall about our audience, exactly,
we're all about the audiencekeeping.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Exactly, we're all about the audience.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Keeping that in mind when you do public speaking, I
thought was a really interestingthing to think about, because
often we're in our own heads.
We're getting sweaty, we'regetting nervous I'm speaking for
myself here, but rememberingthat it's about the impact
you're having on other people.
I think is a good takeaway.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Big having on other people, I think, is a good
takeaway big time.
So, yeah, we uh.
That's the episode today.
Just to introduce ourselves.
If this is your first timelistening, this is laughing
through the pain navigatingwellness.
If you didn't know, youprobably knew that when you
clicked on it.
But I'm richard and that'sangry yeah yeah, so that's the
introduction.
Enjoy the episode, listener.
Do you love what you're hearing?
If If so, drop us a like.
(02:07):
Share your favourite episodewith friends and help us grow by
leaving a review wherever youget your podcasts.
Your support means the world tous and helps keep the
conversation going, so tune in,follow, like and review today
like and review today.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Simone, welcome to the pod.
Start you off nice and easy, aswe like to do.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Why do people need to learn to speak better?
Wow, there are a millionreasons for this, but there are
a few that really stand out.
So I work with a lot of peoplein the professional world
leaders, experts and when theycome to me, a lot of the time it
can be a mix of feeling likethey want to improve their
(02:59):
speaking skills or they have afear of it.
You know, often there's alittle bit of both in there
skills or they have a fear of it.
You know, it's often there's alittle bit of both in there.
And ultimately what I see iswhen, when, it goes wrong.
So when people communicate, sowhen we talk about speaking,
it's not just how I speak or howI talk at you.
It's a two way thing.
(03:28):
You know, it's speaking andlistening, listening.
So the problem when peoplecommunicate badly or speak badly
is that mistakes are made.
Miscommunication when you don'tget your point across, when you
can't clarify your thoughts ina concise way.
It leaves people confused.
They're sitting there thinkingI'm guessing they mean this and
they walk away from a meeting,got the wrong end of the stick,
(03:49):
or they walk away from aconversation.
And in the professional world,if communication goes wrong,
then you see big errors gettingmade.
So people waste money on doingthe wrong thing or getting the
wrong resources in.
So it has a big knock-on effect.
When you don't get your messageacross, when you can't clarify
(04:13):
your thoughts, your ideas, ithas a knock-on effect.
But ultimately, I thinkeveryone needs to work on their
speaking skills because we allwant to connect in a meaningful
way.
Communication is really at theheart, is about connection.
How can I listen and speak tothe person or the people I'm
(04:36):
with and walk away withunderstanding, walk away with a
sense of collaboration?
Maybe I want to inspire inspirethat person.
So there's so many reasons toto speak better or communicate
better, but there are just a fewthat are the top of my head so
(04:56):
how would a person know thatthey're they're speaking badly?
Speaker 1 (04:59):
what are, what are the sort of most common mistakes
you see?
Speaker 3 (05:02):
yeah, so you know it can.
I think we've all experiencedthat misworded text message or
an email, a rushed email, andthen the information they
receive isn't what they intendedto put out there.
And so as a speaker, you'rekind of like well, what went
wrong there?
Often we're very easy to blamethe other person oh, what, they
(05:28):
made a mistake, what went wrong?
But usually if we ask ourselveshang on, did I communicate that
information in a clear way?
If we take the responsibilityourselves, we'll often see oh,
maybe there was something inthere that didn't come across
very well.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
I forgot your question main, main mistakes
people make and how wouldsomeone how would someone know a
listener go?
Oh yeah, maybe I need to workon my speaking, because these
things are happening yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
So, thinking about the clients I work with, I've
been help.
I help some people who are inthe expert world where they are
wanting to get their message onstage and they are walking away
with a sense of frustration.
So on the stage could be ontheir social media platforms.
So they're creating videocontent, they are out and about
(06:21):
pitching their business, theirproducts, and they're not
getting the response that theywant, they're not getting the
right kind of feedback, and sothat's a first sign of maybe
there's something not going aswell as I intended here.
So therefore, I help them lookat what is going wrong.
(06:42):
Is it the message itself, is itthe content, or is it the way
you are delivering it?
Because speaking involves allthose elements.
It's not just about the wordsyou say, it's the intent behind
the words, it's the preparationyou put in.
So it's like I kind of do a bitof detective work and really
(07:02):
look at what is.
Where is the block?
Where is the miscommunicationhappening In the working and
corporate world?
I'll have people who say thatthey're especially in media.
I work with a lot of mediaindustry, so they're coming to
me and saying you know, I'mgoing into these pictures, I've
got these great ideas and eitherpeople are saying oh yeah, yeah
(07:24):
, it's really good, and they'renot buying it, or they walk out
the room with this feeling of Ijust messed up, I just didn't
sell the idea, I didn't.
You know, it was such a greatthing and I didn't get it across
in that way.
So that is you know.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
They're feeling the signs themselves, so that's
where they'll come to me okay,and then, in terms of people's
actual voice, because it soundslike there's a lot to speaking.
It's you know, it's bodylanguage, it's what you say, but
just dialing into the, thevoice itself, what?
What are you looking for?
What are you teaching people interms of how they use their
voice?
Speaker 3 (08:00):
yeah.
So I think one of the mainthings is, when people come to
me, they're sort of like oh, Iwant to be able to.
You know that guy on the start,tony robbins.
He gets on the stage and heprojects his voice and he's and
we have this idea that we needto change ourselves or change
our voice to be like thesemotivational speakers or like
(08:23):
the boss who just walks into theroom with such swagger and
confidence.
So, when it comes to voice, thefirst thing I teach people is to
use your voice as an instrument.
You can, you know, raise thetone, you can change the pace of
your voice, but ultimately, youdon't need to change your
(08:45):
accent.
The girl from Liverpool.
You don't need to be someoneother than you are, because, at
the end of the day, as soon asyou start trying to be someone
else, the room feels it, peoplefeel inauthentic, you're
inauthentic, you're not beingyour true self and you get into
this kind of performance place.
(09:07):
We move away from performance.
It's really about tapping intoenthusiasm and you know your
general, your deep passion,rather than a performance,
because that is so off-puttingoff-putting for the speaker,
off-putting for the peoplelistening.
So, yeah, voice, voice isimportant now also when it comes
(09:28):
to the fear of public speaking,when you think about anxiety
and stress.
This impacts our voice, the waythat we speak, the pace that we
speak.
We speak so much faster whenwe're nervous.
We want to fill in the silencewhen we're nervous, so there is
(09:49):
a lot of, especially at thestart of a speech, a
presentation, our voice changes.
So what I'm teaching people isto really ground themselves,
learn some breathing techniques,really allow themselves to
bring in some calm so that theywere able to speak with that
clarity.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yeah, it's really interesting you talking about
individuality in your approachand being authentic and
remembering.
I suppose that we've all gotour own unique way of expressing
ourselves, but could you maybetalk to us a little bit about
some of the common mistakes thatwe're making in terms of filler
words or saying too many words,not being concise enough, not
(10:34):
being direct enough?
I think, certainly from aBritish point of view, the not
being direct enough is a big,big thing.
I find Americans, where youguys both, are now to be much
more direct and in some waysthat comes across as abrasive.
But also you know what peopleare talking about more.
So can you talk a little bitmore about like the common sort
of mistakes that people aremaking like that?
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Yeah, I would say that a few of the common
mistakes, the biggest mistakespeople make.
I've got, I think, of maybethree mistakes that people make.
One of them is this we touchedon it before this idea that when
I'm speaking, I am talking atyou.
(11:18):
Especially when it comes todoing a TED talk, or you're on a
stage of some sort, you'refeeling you need to talk at
someone.
So there isn't this, thetwo-way lane, what I mentioned,
it's very this feeling I need tojust get my point across and
you forget that it's reallyabout listening.
(11:39):
What does this other person, orwhat does this entire audience
really care about?
How can I give them the messageor the information that they
most need?
Not what I want to get across,but what they genuinely care
about?
Another mistake is that peopleforget to and even this happens
(12:02):
a lot in the business worldwhere they're pitching and
presenting.
They want to get facts acrossand data, and it's just really
boring.
So I teach them the importanceof telling a story or getting to
the heart what's the story ofthis product, what's the story
of your service?
What is your story?
(12:22):
And teach them to feelcomfortable at weaving that in.
So that's a big one.
Another mistake people make isit's similar to the first one,
but they start to make it allabout themselves, and that's
what brings up anxiety.
I need to make an impression, Ineed to impress this room.
(12:42):
I need everyone not to judge me.
You know, I've really.
It's about me, me, me.
How do I look, how do I comeacross?
And as soon as you're in thatstate, you're in ego, you
increase your anxiety levelsbecause there's this
affectionism that comes out, andso I really spend time teaching
(13:04):
them to get back into thatplace of generosity.
You care more about the people.
You are speaking to the room,the audience, you step into a
place of generosity and you getinto a place of love and
compassion and connection, whichgets you out of the stress and
the nerves.
When it comes to being direct,this is all about clarity.
(13:29):
I always think about the quotewhen you confuse, you lose, you
know.
So, whatever your point is,whatever your message, I'm
always making sure that everyonethinks about what is the
conclusion here?
Where are you going with thisstory?
When someone tells me, gives mea pitch or a story and they go
(13:51):
off on all different tangents,I'm sitting there thinking I am
lost and confused.
I don't quite trust this personbecause I don't think they know
where they got this and I getdistracted.
So when I live in America now Ilive in LA, and I think that
(14:12):
what the difference is is Inoticed that public speaking is
a bigger thing here.
People get taught it in schools.
I never got taught publicspeaking in school.
That's why I was so terribleafter when I was younger.
Never got taught publicspeaking at school.
That's why I was so terribleafter when I was younger.
Um, so I think that there ismore of an education around.
Where am I going?
Let's get clear with thesepoints.
(14:33):
How do I get a concise messageacross and not take?
That's a skill and that's.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
I think that's the difference yeah, the uh, the
voice itself and sort of theprosody is something I learned
about in, you know, mypsychology trainings.
When someone has no prosody orvery low prosody in their voice,
that's often a sign of trauma.
So prosody is like theintonation, the rhythm, whether
(15:01):
or not you're going up or downin your voice.
And I can remember when I firstwent to boarding school in
england and bullying was a bigpart of of that culture and the
boys who the first years or thesorry, the second years they
would like, so excited to havenew first years, because then
they had people to bully and inin my, my house they, you know,
(15:23):
they bullied us all pretty,pretty well and I remember one
of them like, like making fun ofme because I spoke so
monotonously.
I would just speak like thisall the time and at the time I
didn't understand it, but it wasbecause I I did not feel safe,
because I knew that any moment Iwas going to get punched in the
stomach or something like that.
And, um, yeah, it just reallyshows how important our sort of
(15:46):
our feeling of safety, ourself-confidence, our anxiety
levels affect our, our voice.
So is that something you workon with people?
Speaker 3 (15:54):
definitely it really is and it's.
I think a lot of people getquite surprised because they
come to me like teach me how tospeak better, teach me how to
speak better, teach me how to beconfident.
And so I start with okay, well,what experiences have you had
that have led you to believethat you can't?
Or where is this trauma?
(16:15):
Where are those memories?
For me it was school as well.
For the committee people, it'sthe you know.
Stand up and read in front ofthe room, simone, and you do it,
and you get a word wrong andeveryone laughs and the
teacher's, the you know.
Stand up and read in front ofthe room, simone, and you do it,
and you get a word wrong andeveryone laughs and the teacher
laughs and you know they weren'tvery kind to our teachers back
in the day.
So it's for me I have thosememories that it was.
The story based on thatexperience was do not get up and
(16:40):
speak in front of people.
It is not worth the bullying,the trauma that comes from
making a mistake.
So I started to, and manypeople do start to have this
wraparound, this belief of it'snot worth it.
It's not worth it.
I don't want to fail.
Failure is a bad thing and soalways, step one is we dive into
(17:05):
what is your background andwhere is this coming from?
Especially those who come to mewith you know even social
anxiety it's.
Let's look at those memories andthen we have to shine a light
on it and then the next phase isreally starting to.
You know, bring the word isquestioning, questioning it.
Is this true?
Is this true?
(17:25):
I'm a terrible speaker and Iwill always be.
Let's look for evidence.
Otherwise, let's really getinto those subconscious beliefs
and start to reframe and startto rewire them.
And that's the process, really.
And they're like, oh well, whatabout body language and what
about this?
And I'm like, well, go and getto that, don't worry.
Well, what about body languageand what about this?
(17:46):
And I'm like, well, go and getto that, don't worry.
But this is the most importantpart, because if you are on a
stage carrying around still allthose beliefs of I'm terrible at
this, I'm going to get laughedat, no matter, you can throw in
as many body language cues, youcan meditate, but you're still
carrying around that depth andthat has to change in order for
(18:08):
you to change I had a questionabout.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
You know you're talking about authenticity, is
there?
I mean, are there differentchallenges that come with when
someone's say, speaking aboutsomething they're really
passionate about I don'tfurthering a mental health cause
or something and delivering asales pitch for a company that
you work for, that you might notnecessarily kind of?
Speaker 1 (18:31):
it's not your message .
Asking for a friend?
Yeah, asking for a friend.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
No, but you know what I mean.
There's kind of like there'sdifferent contexts for speaking,
and sometimes you have todeliver the presentation with
the big boring facts, andsometimes you have to deliver
the presentation with the bigboring facts, and sometimes you
have to, you know, speak fromthe heart, and is there a big
difference?
Speaker 3 (18:51):
and should we be kind of channeling the same energy
for both?
Yeah, that's a really goodquestion, because what happens
in the work environment?
Like you just said, if you'reregurgitating information you've
done a million times, you'velost this sense of I care about
this jet matter, already walkingin with a huge barrier, because
(19:12):
anyone listening, no matter howwell you fake it, they know you
don't care.
So the fact is, if we can feelenthusiastic about a subject
matter, we can learn to applythat enthusiasm to a subject
that we're not so interested in.
(19:32):
So it's, and it's always vitalto know that the energy you
carry into the subject you'retalking about, into the room, is
the thing that the room isgoing to walk away with.
That's what they're going toremember.
They don't remember the data,they don't remember all the
facts, but the way you made themfeel is what they are going to
(19:55):
walk out.
That's the resonation they'regoing to have.
So how do you apply that?
When you're like, well, this isso boring to me, there are ways
of integrating it.
So it's really getting down to.
I speak with, I try and look athey, how do we care about this
subject matter and, I think, abigger picture.
(20:15):
Well, why do you care aboutyour work?
Why do you care about your work?
Why do you care that that yourclient or customer or colleagues
thinking about them again?
Why, well, what are they goingto benefit from this?
Forget that you're recitingthis over and over again.
What difference is this goingto make in their world?
(20:36):
What difference is this goingto make in their world?
What difference is this goingto make in their life?
And when you really get intothe heart of that and you start
to bring out, oh yeah, thiscould improve their life X, y
and Z.
So it's a very important stepactually to I have to do it
myself.
Sometimes I'm like I've done ameditation a million times and
sometimes I do it on a Zoom andI can't see anyone.
(20:58):
You know it's like a zoomwebinar and I'm sitting there
thinking.
I don't know people are asleep.
I don't know if anyone's ataverage or they just locked in
and run out and I have toimagine there's one, I imagine
just one person in that room whoreally needs this today.
So there's a little bit ofimagination involved and and
(21:22):
that then gets me into a placeof okay, this is important.
My work is important.
Another big part, big piece ofthe puzzle is is the self value,
the value, value, what you haveto share, whether it's coming
from a work capacity or whetherit's your message.
So we really spend a lot oftime on that that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
It's really interesting you comment on the
online environment as well,because clearly there are a lot
of people presenting to a lot ofblank screens these days and
also the blank screens probablyknow that the presentation will
be circulated afterwards andthey probably can be doing
something else.
But yeah, I think I like thatidea of just making you know,
assuming that your message isbeing well received, because
(22:05):
it's been given with with goodintent.
Yeah, and you just never know.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
I've had that when someone's in meditation and
imagined there's just one personwho needs this and and I've had
feedback, you know that reallymade a difference to me and I
was.
I was kind of, oh, oh, therereally was one person who needed
.
So, um, yeah, it's a.
It's really shifting back intothe listener to help evoke that
(22:34):
passion, that enthusiasm, thatthat can still time.
Yeah, it's a training.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Yeah yeah.
The Zoom thing is a nightmare,especially when you put up
slides and then you can't seeanyone's reaction.
It's so painful, like I don'tknow.
You say something you think isinteresting and you get no
feedback.
You make a joke and you can'ttell if people are laughing.
It can be really jarring andespecially if you share
(23:01):
something like personal and youwant, you know, some, some
empathy or something like that.
It can be brutal.
But I guess that's a differentchallenge to sharing in front of
a live audience where you knowpeople just walk away or things
like that, or they just you knowthey're on their phone.
Um, so, yes, extra challengesof the digital world.
(23:21):
Um, so what does it mean tospeak like a boss with heart?
Speaker 3 (23:28):
mm-hmm.
So that was this is the name ofmy very first public speaking
core, my program, my intimategroup where I was just.
I really wanted to help peoplelike me because my story was
very much I mentioned I was verymuch someone who hated public
(23:49):
speaking, terrified of it andthought I just wasn't born to do
this.
See people who are great at it,confident and especially.
And so at that time, rewindinga little bit, I came through the
television industry.
So I was a producer, executiveproducer, and even though I
didn't have to be on camera, Ihad to instruct a room or a team
(24:16):
sometimes hundreds of people,directors, directors, editors,
producers to go out and, youknow, create great telly.
And the more I had to do that Iassumed it would get easier and
sometimes it did, but I stillalways felt this sense of fear
and overwhelm and impostersyndrome, always felt this sense
(24:41):
of fear and overwhelm andimposter syndrome.
So, anyway, I really wanted tohelp people who were in that
place that I was, that werefeeling that sense of stuckness.
And the reason I went on to getout of that is because I
started working with a coach andshe told me, because I really
need to, this is a problem.
You know, I'm very red, I'mshaking, I'm supposed to be
(25:02):
their leader.
She's like, oh, you know, youcan just go and learn public
speaking skills.
And I was like, really, yeah, Iknow, go on to Toastmasters,
learn the skills and you'll getbetter.
And it's like I kind of knew Icould do that, but I didn't
really think it was possible forme.
I've been struggling with myown fears around any form of
(25:26):
public speaking and thisself-doubt, and it was this like
penny dropping moment when Iwas working with a coach about
it.
I was going to tell you howterrible it was.
She just said why don't you go?
Why don't you go learn how todo public speaking?
Go along to Toastmasters.
It's a class that teaches youhow to get up there and
(25:48):
communicate and learn all theskills.
And what I know now is their,their form of of lesson, is
around immersion therapy.
So it's, you know, each week Iwould I just moved to la at the
time so each week we would godown to a denny's diner on a
tuesday morning at 7 am and inthe room and you can imagine,
(26:10):
because it's in la there was allsorts of people with comedians
practicing their, their, theirmaterial.
There were people in marketing,there was a couple there, there
was this other couple who wererunning it, who had been doing
it for like 50 years, and sothat alone was very entertaining
and everyone was so different.
(26:31):
So I knew that, okay, noteveryone is brilliant at
speaking and they're all here toget better, and so I was like,
okay, I'm not the only one, Ican do this.
So that's where it started forme and that's where I committed
to choosing to improve theseskills and so that what I'd
(26:51):
walked away from with that was alot of the, the body language
and even some of thestorytelling.
I knew a lot of the essence ofstorytelling from my work as a
TV producer, but this was a newway, a new way of delivering it.
And after that I sort of at thesame time, I started embarking
(27:11):
on a meditation teacher training.
I started learning all abouthow to harness and how to
navigate the anxiety that I felt, how to manage my emotions, how
to manage my thoughts, andreally the so Speak Like a Boss
with Heart was the product ofall of this.
(27:32):
I wanted to bring the twoelements, the skills of public
speaking, along with the mindsettools to help people in the
workplace or if they've got awedding speech or whatever is
coming up, they could go out anddo it and they could do it well
.
And so all of my work is reallyabout coming from the heart.
(27:55):
That means that we're reallytapping into a heart wisdom
we're getting out of our head,we're getting out of the stories
and the doubt and theresistance and we're learning
how to channel our enthusiasmand passion through the heart.
And the speak like a boss partwas okay.
This, this is the client thatI'm working with a lot people,
people in the workplace.
(28:16):
So that's where that came fromand it's still going now
actually.
So that's my small greenprogram and the essence of it is
I take them through the stepsof writing and delivering a
TED-style talk, and the reason Idid that is because, after my
Toastmasters experience, Ieventually got to the point
(28:40):
where I was brave enough to do aTED Talk and, going through
that process and learning how toget on a stage and deliver and
not faint, I decided that'sgoing to be a useful format for
people to follow, no matter whatthey're doing.
You know that feeling of I didthat and they didn't collapse
(29:04):
and I now know these tools totake into any any of these life
experiences.
So that's where it all sort ofstarted and, yeah, it's very
much still a big part of my workyeah.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Well, I think I want to ask you about sort of
resilience.
But obviously people know whatresilience is.
You know tolerance, to stressthat kind of thing, and I know
you do work with people likethat.
But when someone's speaking upon stage you can be resilient to
, to a stress, of course, butsome people just speaking is not
stressful for them, it's justsomething they don't mind doing.
(29:42):
And I think a big part of thatis criticism is how they take
criticism, and this is somethingI really struggle with is is
being sensitive to criticism,and I I think the antidote to
that is having a greater senseof self, is not thinking about
what other people think of you,but knowing who you are, what
(30:05):
your talents are and things likethat.
So how do you help people tonot be so sensitive to criticism
?
Speaker 3 (30:14):
this is a big thing for me.
That's also been such a hugechallenge for me over my life
being open to criticism,judgment, and I think I sort of
talk about it as the umbrella offailure.
You know, if you stumble overyour words, if you lose track of
your thought, you have thisoverwhelming sense or you can do
(30:36):
that.
Everybody is just sat theresaying, thinking what is this
person doing?
Why are they even up there?
Who do they think they are?
That's a very I think that feltlike it was a very British
criticism.
Who do you think you aregetting on the stage?
So criticism is fundamentallyone of those barriers to being
able to be a confident speakerand so, on the flip side, the
(31:00):
antidote.
I very much spend a lot of timebuilding a sense of self-trust
and this idea that failure isnot a problem, and that is a
really big part of resilience,because if we are prepared to
fail, if we're prepared to takecriticism, to have judgment,
(31:26):
then that is the only way we cansucceed.
If we are not prepared, ifwe're too afraid of it, if we're
like, no, I don't want thecriticism, I don't want the
judgment, we're going to staysafe, we're not going to get on
stage.
We're not going to putourselves forward for promotion
or a pay rise.
So self-trust says I can get upthere and make a mistake and it
(31:50):
might not feel nice, but I cancome back from this.
It's not over.
I can trust myself enough toknow I can get better.
It's not over.
I can trust myself enough toknow I can get better.
The other part, the opposite,is I'm going to get up there and
fail and my life is over.
You know, that's where most ofour conditioning is, and I see
(32:13):
it especially in a corporateworld or even media.
You're taught failure is bad.
You fail an interview, you'renot getting the job.
Failure is bad.
You fail an interview, you'renot getting the job.
You fail to write a good script, you fail to do great pictures.
Let's get someone else who'sbetter.
There's no room for failure ina lot of business world as well.
So we're repeatedly told don'tmess up.
And then for me, as someone whodoesn't like as a bit of a
(32:36):
people pleaser and didn't likeany kind of criticism, I've had
to sit with it's okay not to beliked by everyone.
I've had to meditate on that.
I've had to really do a lot ofthought, work and belief, work
around building my self-trust.
And when I've got theself-trust I'm like it's okay,
(32:57):
this can go wrong and it's goingbe okay.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
I've got my own bath because they say out here yeah,
yeah, I think when you are doingI don't know tv or podcasting,
if you're not sort of upsettingsome people, you're not going to
be saying anything interesting.
You know, we we have said somecriticism for some of our guests
and some of the things we'vesaid, but it wasn't like
(33:23):
criticism of just like.
This is bad, it was well, wehave a different point of view
and that sparked debate and thatsparked interest and that's
entertaining for people.
So I think for me, one of thethings I tell myself when doing
a podcast and public speaking islike if you're not getting any
criticism, you're not doinganything worthwhile, you know,
because it would just be soboring and bland and no one's
going to be interested in that.
(33:43):
So that's one of the ways Itrick myself into saying
controversial things yeah, it'sa really good it's.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
I think it's a smart trickering.
Oh yeah, the brain tricks you.
You have to bring them in andand and yeah, see it as part and
parcel.
If I want to share a great, agreat message, if I want to do
something big in the world, itthere's.
There's no way that everybody'sgonna like it.
There is no way on earth thatyou're just gonna speak
(34:10):
authentically and passionatelyor have in different opinions
and everybody's gonna like it.
It's just impossible.
So if you get out of thatillusion like this is all gonna
go smooth, like and so it'sgoing to happen.
And how am I going to treatmyself?
How am I going to talk tomyself when I get that criticism
?
I used to be the worst.
(34:30):
I had the worst inner critic.
Don't ever make a mistake.
You know life is over and when.
And then that just held me backeven more.
So I didn't even have thecriticism, but I was giving it
to myself.
Yeah, I still, I still strugglewith it I'm uh.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
So I'm just getting over the shock of uh hearing
that rich needs to talk himselfinto saying something
controversial well.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
So I guess it's not talking myself in, but there was
there's.
You know, if I was just meetingsomeone new for the first time
and I really wanted them to likeme, I would probably filter
myself more and not say the sortof controversial things.
But this is a podcast, this isan entertainment medium.
We we've got to take risks,otherwise people are just not
going to tune in um so sayingthat how, you've heard us speak
(35:21):
for a little while, what wouldyou be coaching us?
How can we make this podcastbetter?
Can we get some free speakingcoaching live on air?
Right now is there a two-partquestion yeah, is our voices.
Could we doing be doing morewith our voice?
Are we doing too many ums anduhs?
Anything you've noticed?
Now?
Feel free to be very criticaloh okay.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
Well, look, I think what you're doing right is the
following so you naturally comecoming from a place of curious,
asking questions that you, Ifeel you were genuinely
interested in.
You know, learning some, maybesome tools for yourself or for
people you know, and obviouslythe audience.
So that alone allows me to feela connection and engagement
(36:06):
with you.
So that's like rule number one.
You got off to a great startthere, and, considering there's
two of you asking questions,you've got a nice flow.
You know there's not not.
I didn't feel too overwhelmedby a bombardment of questions
and it feels very natural.
So I think this is probablyquite a nice yes, feels, maybe
(36:29):
not like maybe the first one youdid, but it feels like it's
kind of easy for you, doesn'tfeel like it's challenging.
How do you feel about publicspeaking, though?
How do you feel when you get ona stage or that you have to
speak to that room all staringat you?
You can see all their faces.
How are you in that situation?
Speaker 1 (36:47):
me, I like it, I enjoy it, I get excited by it
and, um, yeah, I think it bringsout the best in me I'll give
you two examples.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
One is when I would I did the ceremony for my
friend's wedding.
I was super nervous but when Iwas up there it felt absolutely
amazing because it was obviouslyso heartfelt to two of my
friends marrying one another.
So it's like beautiful moment,amazing setting love.
That not so good is when I'm onlike a panel talking about a
development I've done.
That is kind of, you know I'vedone to death.
(37:20):
I'm so in the detail, I'm justanswering questions and it's
hard to be enthusiastic aboutthem.
So I think the authenticitypiece for me is really hard in
terms of if I don't believe insomething, it's really hard to
keep my energy and engagementhigh.
I suppose.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
And I think that is actually hitting nail on the
head there.
Because you believe in in this,you believe there's a sense of
this is a a deep, there's adeeper purpose with the work
you're doing podcast and whenyou believe both in yourself,
the, the idea you're sharing andthe people who are listening.
(37:55):
There's three levels to it.
It's not just again about youand I sit here and really get
into that energy of believing inthis.
Where can I find the passion?
Where can I find the enthusiasm?
When you ask the rightquestions, you'll find it, and
you can sit there with a listbefore you go on to a panel.
And, yeah, remember that person.
(38:16):
That one person in the roomjust might really need to be
listening to what you're aboutto share.
It might not be boring to themThey've heard it a hundred times
but in terms of things likefiller words, I'm guilty of the
filler word.
I know that it can be acultural thing as well.
In Liverpool, a lot of peoplehave many filler words and so we
(38:37):
carry them with us and the bestway to.
So this is what they did inToastmasters we would get up and
they would ask a spontaneousquestion, talk for two minutes
on peonies and you're like Idon't really know anything about
peonies, I was gonna wing it.
And every time you said afiller word, just so no likes
(39:01):
they would ding a bell.
And so you're getting you knowin the moment and you realize,
oh, I am using that filler worda lot In everyday life.
No one's going to be dinging abell for you and in some ways it
can feel quite harsh, butyou're just bringing enough
awareness to it to startnoticing it yourself.
(39:25):
Many fellow words we reallydon't notice.
Start noticing it ourselves andthen you just get to practice a
bit more.
A big one, I think again, youjust do it naturally is the
power of the pause yes, speakingand nervousness around speaking
.
We want to fill in the gaps, wewant to use filler words.
(39:48):
So if you can practice pausingbefore you speak and that means
taking those breaths, reallylistening to what that the other
person is, you know, wanting orsaying you now have a chance to
formulate your thoughts in amuch more concise way to what
the other person is wanting orsaying.
You now have a chance toformulate your thoughts in a
(40:10):
much more concise way.
So if you're sitting therelistening to me now and thinking
, oh, what's the next question?
Or maybe, oh, that's a goodpoint, I'll know that for later.
You're often thinking about I'mnot in your head, but that's
usually what's the next thing tosay, and sometimes that takes
(40:32):
you away from really gettinginto the moment.
So practicing the power of thepause just allows you to have
this powerful, powerful momentclarity, confidence.
And it was a mark twain who Iwas looking for it before
because it's so good.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Well, I was just going to say the pause thing in
podcasts is an interesting one,because often when I listen to a
podcast and the host or guestis using a lot of pauses, I
think, oh, my app is broken, oh,what's going on?
I look at my phone it's like,oh, there's an error.
But it's not.
It's just the person has takena pause and uh, yeah, we have a
podcast editor and she will takeout pauses that are are in
(41:12):
there because it's it's betterfor the, for the listener
experience.
But I guess that's maybe thedifference between podcasting
and giving a pitch and doing ated talk yeah, exactly yeah, the
, the edited down version.
Speaker 3 (41:27):
No one wants to hit pauses and it's like I remember
as a producer when I had tointerview, you know, guests,
celebrities, whatever.
There was an art to reallyhelping them bring out the best
story, helping them feelcomfortable, and I think you're
(41:47):
doing a great job with that.
But I think just always usefulto keep in mind, if I can hold
back or pick up on certainthings that they've said, it
might go off on a differenttangent, but hey, you might get
something really juicy out of it.
So, yeah, it's an art tolistening, to communicating, and
I can't fault you in many ways,to be honest.
(42:10):
So it's going on our season ifsomebody video of you, of you on
a panel.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
I'll give you a song oh yeah, uh, no, I refuse um.
Can we hear the mark twain?
Speaker 3 (42:22):
quite did you mark twain?
Where's he gone?
Speaker 1 (42:26):
Simone, you did say you're a people pleaser, though
Are you being too nice by nottelling?
Speaker 2 (42:30):
us our faults.
Yeah, maybe just tell us ourfair.
Don't stare at us whilst we'reactually calling.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
I don't think Andy actually consented to being
criticised so maybe you shouldjust criticise me, okay deal.
Speaker 3 (42:49):
so maybe, uh, you should just criticize me, okay
deal.
the right word might beeffective, but no word was ever
as effective as a rightly timedhorse that is good that is very
good, like that and also,especially when you're on a
stage or, you know, on a paddle,means that you're allowing the
listener to digest what you justshared.
(43:11):
When you keep filling the gaps,this now, oh, now I'm thinking
about the next thing.
Now, think about it.
Don't really?
It's a powerful moment to say,oh, now it's about to absorb,
because they want to think aboutwhat you just said as well.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
So, yeah, yeah that very much aligns with what
andrew huberman was saying aboutthe best ways to learn.
He did a whole podcast aboutlearning and he said the best
way to do that is to takefrequent pauses.
You know, do like a five minutepiece of information and then
give them 30 seconds just ofsilence, just to digest that.
(43:47):
And yeah, just keeping doingthose, those frequent pause.
I can't remember exactly howlong he said, if it was a pause
for for 30 seconds or fiveminutes, but yeah, pauses are
are useful for our learning yeah, and and the reason I talk
about it is because they'reactually really hard.
Speaker 3 (44:03):
It's such an awkward moment that we were like, oh,
they don't like feeling thisawkwardness, but to be able to
sit with that is so powerful.
You know that all ties into theemotional intelligence and
self-awareness when it comes tobeing a good speaker.
It has to start with that.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
Yes absolutely, I wanted to talk about, if I I may
change the tangent a little bit.
You spoke earlier about your umbackground and I think you've
done um meditation training.
How much, if any, does thatkind of feed into the work you
do now?
Speaker 3 (44:40):
a huge amount.
Yeah, it was.
It was interesting because Inever imagined myself as being a
meditation teacher and I wasvery much identified.
I think you know I was comingup to nearly 20 years in the TV
industry.
So to then be like, oh, I'mjust going to go off and be a
meditation teacher, it was soalien to me.
But there was a couple thingsgoing on.
(45:04):
Work challenges were definitelya big part of personal anxiety,
overwhelm.
I was using food a lot, alcohola lot to cope with the stress
and the intensity of.
I sometimes would do 27 hourshifts on shows like Big Brother
Just silly, crazy workconditions and everyone was
(45:29):
doing it.
So I was like, oh well, it'snot.
You know, I have to pack it.
This is how you get ahead, justpush through.
And I didn't have a breakdownor anything.
But I knew that this was nothealthy and I knew I needed to
have used something other thansugar and alcohol to to get me
through.
So the meditation was the first, was really such an empowering
(45:51):
moment for me that I realized,oh, I can take some sort of
control of this I have, I canmanage these emotions in a way
and I can help reduce my levelsof cortisol, I can sleep better,
you know I can.
Obviously, the work conditionsdefinitely needed to change as
well, but that was a reallyawakening moment.
(46:12):
A real awakening moment and aswhen I started to learn about
how to do public speaking, howto be a better leader in the
workplace, I knew that thatmindset part was so important
and it really does play a partin everything I teach now.
(46:33):
So, aside from the publicspeaking courses and the
pitching presentation, I work alot with corporates.
So I teach seminars, workshopsall around managing stress,
managing anxiety, because I knowif everyone has the ability or
even just a few techniques, thiscould start a ripple effect.
(46:57):
They could then start lookinginto oh I can do something about
this, what else can I do?
They're not a victim to thecircumstances or their work.
They can actually make adifference and make a change.
So, yes, meditation, I went offand did a teacher training, this
400 hour teacher training, andI really just wanted to feel
(47:20):
better.
Another, another thing in thebackground that was going on was
my husband and I were reallystruggling to have a baby and we
spent so many years and so muchmoney through the whole
fertility journey and it wasreally breaking my heart on so
many levels and it wasn't goodfor our relationship, and so
(47:41):
meditation then became a big,bigger part for me, because I
needed it to help with the griefand to help me get through
those challenges way of offeeling that sense of self-worth
fulfillment, of being able tomove through their pain and not
(48:10):
suffer so much.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
So it's all very interlinked, they're not
separate absolutely well, Ithink one thing people think
when they start meditation isI'm gonna fail, and what do you
have to say that?
How do you fail at meditation?
Speaker 3 (48:28):
okay, this is a good one.
This looks like people sayingto me simone, I can't meditate,
my mind is too busy, I'm way toodistracted and just I'm not
good at it, can't do it.
And I used to think the samething like well, if we?
Well, if meditation is sittingon a cloud of bliss clearing all
(48:48):
my thoughts huge misconceptionthen A I'm not doing it right
and B I'm failing at it.
You can't fail at meditationbecause it is a practice.
It's not a goal.
What you're doing is developinga sense of awareness.
(49:08):
Failing that meditation is likesaying I went to the gym today
and I could not pick up that100-pound weight, so I failed at
being strong.
You're like no, you're notgoing to be strong on the first
attempt, and it's theprogressive slowly building up.
So the idea of failing one islike there I go again, worrying
(49:33):
about the future.
I'm dread, reminiscing on thepast, the problems, the pain and
actually those failed moments.
Or those are the moments ofawakening, cause if you can
catch the thought and be awareof it and be aware of the
emotion, that's the first stepin that's meditation.
(49:56):
So if you're easy to gobackwards and forwards from the
thought, a worry, a doubt.
There it is again.
There it is again.
That's the practice.
There it is again, there it isagain.
That's the practice.
And as long as you're notjudging it and wanting it to go
away or fighting it, you canthen, over time, start to have
this amazing sense ofgroundedness, this feeling of I
(50:17):
don't have to be ruled by mythoughts, I don't have to be
dictated by these beliefs.
That's such an empowering placeto be.
So.
No, you can't fail.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
And meditation yeah, that practice of surrender, I
think, is something that iscomes up in so many different
traditions.
You know breathwork, ayahuascaand meditation and it's it's
just the people who fail atmeditation, I think, are the
people who need to understandthat.
You know you're surrendering isa sort of an action of strength
(50:50):
.
You know it's not weakness.
You're surrendering to themoment, you're surrendering to
your pain, you're surrenderingto the grief, and I find so many
people struggle with that andit really holds them back and
they get stuck in.
You know their pain or they'restuck in in their anxiety and
things like that.
But, um, yeah, I think it'sreally important.
And accountability that'ssomething you speak about and uh
(51:14):
, yeah, how important isaccountability?
Speaker 3 (51:19):
you know, accountability really for me has
is, like I said, what evenworking with a coach that first
time around, the very first timeI did, allowed me to A see what
was possible to be in thecompany of someone who was
supporting, supportive andhelped me create a clear
(51:40):
direction of where I wanted togo, a direction of where I
wanted to go, and then showingup for her every week, I just
saw a huge shift in my life thatyou know, friends can do it to
a degree and you know, sometimesfamily members, but to have one
person or even a group ofpeople, all you're focused on is
helping you meet those goals.
(52:02):
And the reason I think it'simportant is because as soon as
you say I want to.
So I've just signed up to dothe LA marathon next year.
Never done one before and it,you know, took me a while to get
my head into it, but I dideventually.
So that was a is a huge changefor me.
(52:23):
I've got to start running.
I'm sort of, you know, am Isomeone who can be a runner when
I've always hated it and theprocess of doing something big
and scary?
I have to have accountabilityfor it.
So I've told friends I just,you know I've got a plan and
what you know, work with a coachthese are all ways to help me
(52:45):
meet that goal, because it's abig goal.
It's a huge change for me andeven if you wanted to have a
small change in your life,change is fundamentally hard.
It's unfamiliar, and even whenyou've got so much excitement
and motivation in the beginning,it usually tapers off because a
changes too weird for us.
(53:07):
It's very, you know, we see itas a threat.
It's kind of like no, I draw onstaying in the same place.
It feels safe.
So the accountability elementhelps you through the hurdles
every time you hit the lowpoints and it says I need help.
And often we do need need help.
We can't just do it on our own.
So, yeah, I've run a fewaccountability groups because,
(53:30):
again, it's just something thatI know personally has helped me
in many ways and, as you know,do it the right way, then you,
then you can also meet thosegoals yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker 1 (53:44):
I accountability people.
If they've got the money, Ithink you should use coaches for
whatever they want, because somany people just say, oh, I
can't do this, I can't exercise.
Well, when people get apersonal trainer, just having
that accountability, they turnup to the gym.
Or I can't meditate, whenpeople have a meditation coach,
they're more likely to do itsame with any kind of yeah,
(54:06):
accountability based thing.
It doesn't don't necessarilyhave to pay for a coach.
You know you can do it with afriend and things like that, but
just having that support is sovaluable definitely yeah, or you
can go and find a freeaccountability group or your
friends.
Speaker 3 (54:23):
It's just committing to it really saying yeah, this
is the plan.
Speaker 1 (54:27):
I told each other accountable yes, okay, it might
be unfair to um ask you thisbecause you said about it off
off air.
Speaker 2 (54:36):
Um, simone, but can you talk a little bit about like
the future, like what?
What's next for you?
What are you working on?
When does this work?
Speaker 3 (54:43):
um grow where is it going?
Yeah, it's.
It's interesting because andlike the meditation teacher
question, though I'm not gonnabe, I'm not a meditation teacher
, and or what could I ever beone the same happens around
public speaking.
You know, I had all this senseof well, I'm not exactly this
(55:03):
big inspirational motivation atthe speaker.
And why am I doing this work?
And, ultimately, the people I'mworking with?
Now, every time I work with aclient, the sense of fulfillment
to help them go from that pointA that moment of I'm dreading
this, I'm terrible at it,everyone's judging me into a
(55:24):
place of acceptance, into aplace of belief and courage.
I can go out and I can go intothat room and I can do this
while I have that trust inmyself.
That alone is so motivating forme.
But I'm also working with a lotof experts and people with an
amazing story or a reallyimportant message, and they
(55:46):
don't quite know how to tellthat story.
They don't know how to write it, they don't know how to deliver
it in a way that will createimpact.
And when I work with those typesof people, I'm like you have
got such an important message.
Whoever you tell this to, Iknow they're going to be sitting
there thinking I need to hear.
I know they're going to besitting there thinking I needed
(56:07):
to hear this and this is goingto make a difference in my life.
So if I can give them that sortof confidence and the platform
to be able to do it whether it'son the tech stage, whether it's
through social media videos,however you want to do it that
is super inspiring for me.
So I want to do more of that.
I helped three three experts inthe past six months to do a ted
(56:32):
talk, so I've got them bookedon a stage and and I helped them
through each part of theprocess.
Speaker 1 (56:37):
It's just really fun.
Speaker 3 (56:38):
You know each element of it, so more of that, please.
Speaker 1 (56:42):
Awesome awesome, and how do people find you I?
Speaker 3 (56:48):
do I have a website?
I'm on Instagram.
I think the best thing to do isat the moment, I'm creating new
courses.
I offer free workshops a lot,so it's either on my Instagram
We'll signpost it We'll put iton there.
Yeah, it's simontieatmecom andget on my newsletter because
that's where they'll hear aboutany of my workshops.
(57:08):
If it's a company, I do a lotof corporate work, so they will
contact me and I can send over aproposal and tailor it to their
company as well.
What does your team need?
What specifically do you wantto achieve?
Achieve out of um, a publicspeaking course?
Do people just really need toget better at the presentations,
(57:30):
and often there's much more toit, but that's um.
Yeah, they can just email meand I can send them information
awesome.
Speaker 2 (57:40):
Well, thank you very much, simone yes, thank you very
much indeed for giving us yourtime.
Yeah, so interesting talking toyou and I think that thing
about knowing that it matters tosomeone is a really good
takeaway, so thank you for thatyeah, you're welcome brilliant
(58:01):
hi, welcome back.
Uh, the what my point on the?
Um that one of the last thingsI said I thought was a very good
one, though I say so myselfwhich is, I think you know, in
the, in the environment of zoomsand people not being on the
screen and perhaps um a littlebit of uh monotony, just
thinking that what you're sayingmatters to one person, um, and
(58:24):
I think it's a very nice messageis that what we're doing does?
Speaker 1 (58:27):
is that what we're doing now?
Just telling, and thanks to ourone listener for being there.
Speaker 2 (58:32):
We, we hear you, we see you, yeah um no, I thought
it's a really nice message and areally important one to take
away yeah, so shall I.
Speaker 1 (58:40):
Shall I do say the things that I thought I did
really well, now oh, yeah, sure,highlight my contributions yeah
, none.
None saying controversialthings and building yourself up
to it.
Speaker 2 (58:50):
That's a good thing.
Um, yeah, no, I thought Ithought she also.
Um, I thought it was also veryuh, I enjoyed your interaction
um surrounding uh, when you saidthat you actually really enjoy
it, you relish it.
Um, because it come off theback of, of, I think, her
expecting us to be like we'repretty nervous and dread it and
(59:13):
have to build up to it, which iskind of more where I sit, but
it's, I guess, with yourpractice of um having to be an
authority on breath work.
Maybe you've got used to, uh,used to it um, I think it's just
a star for attention.
Speaker 1 (59:27):
Didn't get enough attention from my parents and
then when I would go up on stageyou know, in school plays and
public speaking competitions Iwould get the uh, the love and
attention that I am.
I wasn't getting elsewhere.
Speaker 2 (59:38):
So, yeah, there's a deeper, deeper insight into my
time for that now, but I was themain part in the school play,
so maybe there's something goingon there for me as well.
Speaker 1 (59:47):
Maybe, maybe, yes, well, more on Andy and I's
childhood trauma next week.
Speaker 2 (59:54):
No, thanks again to Simone for coming on.
I think speech andcommunication is so important in
today's world, maybe more thanever.
It feels quite divisive, soconnecting and putting your
message across all good thingsto know about.
Speaker 1 (01:00:13):
Yes, indeed, all right.
And where do they find us, andy?
Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
Great question.
They find us on Instagram atthe Breath Geek at Andy Esam,
and they find us on Richard'swebsite, richardlblakecom.
Yeah, and sign up for ournewsletter.
Sign up for our newsletter.
The first one is now out.
The second one is out.
Probably the fourth, fifth,they're probably all out now.
Speaker 1 (01:00:38):
We had a bit of a malfunction with the second one.
We had a malfunction in that itwent out slightly prematurely.
It's still fine.
Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
Uh, it's not offensive or anything like that
no, some of some of richard's uhfitness um photos ended up in
there um from the lock to theprivate file the before uh,
there's a good reason to sign upfor my newsletter.
Speaker 1 (01:01:03):
You may get things that I accidentally sent out to
all of my contacts instead ofkeeping them private.
All right, well, thank you forlistening this far.
Speaker 2 (01:01:12):
Thank you for listening.
Yeah, and see you next week.
Bye-bye.
People need to speak better, don't they?
Andy?
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Absolutely they do.
I think that goes for everyone.
By the sounds of it, evenpeople you aspire to speak like,
it sounds like even they makesome common mistakes.
So who have we got to help uswith that?
Speaker 1 (00:15):
on today's episode, we have Simone Tai.
She is a speaking coach.
Isn't that just what you needif you've got a speaking problem
?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
when I found that out , I did.
I was a bit nervous about um myown uh speech throughout the
episode, but she did.
She was very complimentaryabout us but she did also say
she was a people pleaser.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
But I think she was genuine in her feedback yeah, so
those are the things you'regoing to hear about today how to
speak better, whether it's thetone of your voice, whether it's
your resistance to criticismand things like going off on
tangents and the power ofight,or whatever a pause can feel
like an eternity, but just umremembering that what you're
(01:07):
saying is important, so bringingit uh.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Yeah, bringing it in um and I also I, uh, I really
enjoyed, um, her approach to theaudience, or your audience,
that they're the ones thatmatter, which obviously we know
on this show.
But you know, just keep, we'reall about our audience, exactly,
we're all about the audiencekeeping.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Exactly, we're all about the audience.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Keeping that in mind when you do public speaking, I
thought was a really interestingthing to think about, because
often we're in our own heads.
We're getting sweaty, we'regetting nervous I'm speaking for
myself here, but rememberingthat it's about the impact
you're having on other people.
I think is a good takeaway.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Big having on other people, I think, is a good
takeaway big time.
So, yeah, we uh.
That's the episode today.
Just to introduce ourselves.
If this is your first timelistening, this is laughing
through the pain navigatingwellness.
If you didn't know, youprobably knew that when you
clicked on it.
But I'm richard and that'sangry yeah yeah, so that's the
introduction.
Enjoy the episode, listener.
Do you love what you're hearing?
If If so, drop us a like.
(02:07):
Share your favourite episodewith friends and help us grow by
leaving a review wherever youget your podcasts.
Your support means the world tous and helps keep the
conversation going, so tune in,follow, like and review today
like and review today.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Simone, welcome to the pod.
Start you off nice and easy, aswe like to do.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Why do people need to learn to speak better?
Wow, there are a millionreasons for this, but there are
a few that really stand out.
So I work with a lot of peoplein the professional world
leaders, experts and when theycome to me, a lot of the time it
can be a mix of feeling likethey want to improve their
(02:59):
speaking skills or they have afear of it.
You know, often there's alittle bit of both in there
skills or they have a fear of it.
You know, it's often there's alittle bit of both in there.
And ultimately what I see iswhen, when, it goes wrong.
So when people communicate, sowhen we talk about speaking,
it's not just how I speak or howI talk at you.
It's a two way thing.
(03:28):
You know, it's speaking andlistening, listening.
So the problem when peoplecommunicate badly or speak badly
is that mistakes are made.
Miscommunication when you don'tget your point across, when you
can't clarify your thoughts ina concise way.
It leaves people confused.
They're sitting there thinkingI'm guessing they mean this and
they walk away from a meeting,got the wrong end of the stick,
(03:49):
or they walk away from aconversation.
And in the professional world,if communication goes wrong,
then you see big errors gettingmade.
So people waste money on doingthe wrong thing or getting the
wrong resources in.
So it has a big knock-on effect.
When you don't get your messageacross, when you can't clarify
(04:13):
your thoughts, your ideas, ithas a knock-on effect.
But ultimately, I thinkeveryone needs to work on their
speaking skills because we allwant to connect in a meaningful
way.
Communication is really at theheart, is about connection.
How can I listen and speak tothe person or the people I'm
(04:36):
with and walk away withunderstanding, walk away with a
sense of collaboration?
Maybe I want to inspire inspirethat person.
So there's so many reasons toto speak better or communicate
better, but there are just a fewthat are the top of my head so
(04:56):
how would a person know thatthey're they're speaking badly?
Speaker 1 (04:59):
what are, what are the sort of most common mistakes
you see?
Speaker 3 (05:02):
yeah, so you know it can.
I think we've all experiencedthat misworded text message or
an email, a rushed email, andthen the information they
receive isn't what they intendedto put out there.
And so as a speaker, you'rekind of like well, what went
wrong there?
Often we're very easy to blamethe other person oh, what, they
(05:28):
made a mistake, what went wrong?
But usually if we ask ourselveshang on, did I communicate that
information in a clear way?
If we take the responsibilityourselves, we'll often see oh,
maybe there was something inthere that didn't come across
very well.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
I forgot your question main, main mistakes
people make and how wouldsomeone how would someone know a
listener go?
Oh yeah, maybe I need to workon my speaking, because these
things are happening yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
So, thinking about the clients I work with, I've
been help.
I help some people who are inthe expert world where they are
wanting to get their message onstage and they are walking away
with a sense of frustration.
So on the stage could be ontheir social media platforms.
So they're creating videocontent, they are out and about
(06:21):
pitching their business, theirproducts, and they're not
getting the response that theywant, they're not getting the
right kind of feedback, and sothat's a first sign of maybe
there's something not going aswell as I intended here.
So therefore, I help them lookat what is going wrong.
(06:42):
Is it the message itself, is itthe content, or is it the way
you are delivering it?
Because speaking involves allthose elements.
It's not just about the wordsyou say, it's the intent behind
the words, it's the preparationyou put in.
So it's like I kind of do a bitof detective work and really
(07:02):
look at what is.
Where is the block?
Where is the miscommunicationhappening In the working and
corporate world?
I'll have people who say thatthey're especially in media.
I work with a lot of mediaindustry, so they're coming to
me and saying you know, I'mgoing into these pictures, I've
got these great ideas and eitherpeople are saying oh yeah, yeah
(07:24):
, it's really good, and they'renot buying it, or they walk out
the room with this feeling of Ijust messed up, I just didn't
sell the idea, I didn't.
You know, it was such a greatthing and I didn't get it across
in that way.
So that is you know.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
They're feeling the signs themselves, so that's
where they'll come to me okay,and then, in terms of people's
actual voice, because it soundslike there's a lot to speaking.
It's you know, it's bodylanguage, it's what you say, but
just dialing into the, thevoice itself, what?
What are you looking for?
What are you teaching people interms of how they use their
voice?
Speaker 3 (08:00):
yeah.
So I think one of the mainthings is, when people come to
me, they're sort of like oh, Iwant to be able to.
You know that guy on the start,tony robbins.
He gets on the stage and heprojects his voice and he's and
we have this idea that we needto change ourselves or change
our voice to be like thesemotivational speakers or like
(08:23):
the boss who just walks into theroom with such swagger and
confidence.
So, when it comes to voice, thefirst thing I teach people is to
use your voice as an instrument.
You can, you know, raise thetone, you can change the pace of
your voice, but ultimately, youdon't need to change your
(08:45):
accent.
The girl from Liverpool.
You don't need to be someoneother than you are, because, at
the end of the day, as soon asyou start trying to be someone
else, the room feels it, peoplefeel inauthentic, you're
inauthentic, you're not beingyour true self and you get into
this kind of performance place.
(09:07):
We move away from performance.
It's really about tapping intoenthusiasm and you know your
general, your deep passion,rather than a performance,
because that is so off-puttingoff-putting for the speaker,
off-putting for the peoplelistening.
So, yeah, voice, voice isimportant now also when it comes
(09:28):
to the fear of public speaking,when you think about anxiety
and stress.
This impacts our voice, the waythat we speak, the pace that we
speak.
We speak so much faster whenwe're nervous.
We want to fill in the silencewhen we're nervous, so there is
(09:49):
a lot of, especially at thestart of a speech, a
presentation, our voice changes.
So what I'm teaching people isto really ground themselves,
learn some breathing techniques,really allow themselves to
bring in some calm so that theywere able to speak with that
clarity.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yeah, it's really interesting you talking about
individuality in your approachand being authentic and
remembering.
I suppose that we've all gotour own unique way of expressing
ourselves, but could you maybetalk to us a little bit about
some of the common mistakes thatwe're making in terms of filler
words or saying too many words,not being concise enough, not
(10:34):
being direct enough?
I think, certainly from aBritish point of view, the not
being direct enough is a big,big thing.
I find Americans, where youguys both, are now to be much
more direct and in some waysthat comes across as abrasive.
But also you know what peopleare talking about more.
So can you talk a little bitmore about like the common sort
of mistakes that people aremaking like that?
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Yeah, I would say that a few of the common
mistakes, the biggest mistakespeople make.
I've got, I think, of maybethree mistakes that people make.
One of them is this we touchedon it before this idea that when
I'm speaking, I am talking atyou.
(11:18):
Especially when it comes todoing a TED talk, or you're on a
stage of some sort, you'refeeling you need to talk at
someone.
So there isn't this, thetwo-way lane, what I mentioned,
it's very this feeling I need tojust get my point across and
you forget that it's reallyabout listening.
(11:39):
What does this other person, orwhat does this entire audience
really care about?
How can I give them the messageor the information that they
most need?
Not what I want to get across,but what they genuinely care
about?
Another mistake is that peopleforget to and even this happens
(12:02):
a lot in the business worldwhere they're pitching and
presenting.
They want to get facts acrossand data, and it's just really
boring.
So I teach them the importanceof telling a story or getting to
the heart what's the story ofthis product, what's the story
of your service?
What is your story?
(12:22):
And teach them to feelcomfortable at weaving that in.
So that's a big one.
Another mistake people make isit's similar to the first one,
but they start to make it allabout themselves, and that's
what brings up anxiety.
I need to make an impression, Ineed to impress this room.
(12:42):
I need everyone not to judge me.
You know, I've really.
It's about me, me, me.
How do I look, how do I comeacross?
And as soon as you're in thatstate, you're in ego, you
increase your anxiety levelsbecause there's this
affectionism that comes out, andso I really spend time teaching
(13:04):
them to get back into thatplace of generosity.
You care more about the people.
You are speaking to the room,the audience, you step into a
place of generosity and you getinto a place of love and
compassion and connection, whichgets you out of the stress and
the nerves.
When it comes to being direct,this is all about clarity.
(13:29):
I always think about the quotewhen you confuse, you lose, you
know.
So, whatever your point is,whatever your message, I'm
always making sure that everyonethinks about what is the
conclusion here?
Where are you going with thisstory?
When someone tells me, gives mea pitch or a story and they go
(13:51):
off on all different tangents,I'm sitting there thinking I am
lost and confused.
I don't quite trust this personbecause I don't think they know
where they got this and I getdistracted.
So when I live in America now Ilive in LA, and I think that
(14:12):
what the difference is is Inoticed that public speaking is
a bigger thing here.
People get taught it in schools.
I never got taught publicspeaking in school.
That's why I was so terribleafter when I was younger.
Never got taught publicspeaking at school.
That's why I was so terribleafter when I was younger.
Um, so I think that there ismore of an education around.
Where am I going?
Let's get clear with thesepoints.
(14:33):
How do I get a concise messageacross and not take?
That's a skill and that's.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
I think that's the difference yeah, the uh, the
voice itself and sort of theprosody is something I learned
about in, you know, mypsychology trainings.
When someone has no prosody orvery low prosody in their voice,
that's often a sign of trauma.
So prosody is like theintonation, the rhythm, whether
(15:01):
or not you're going up or downin your voice.
And I can remember when I firstwent to boarding school in
england and bullying was a bigpart of of that culture and the
boys who the first years or thesorry, the second years they
would like, so excited to havenew first years, because then
they had people to bully and inin my, my house they, you know,
(15:23):
they bullied us all pretty,pretty well and I remember one
of them like, like making fun ofme because I spoke so
monotonously.
I would just speak like thisall the time and at the time I
didn't understand it, but it wasbecause I I did not feel safe,
because I knew that any moment Iwas going to get punched in the
stomach or something like that.
And, um, yeah, it just reallyshows how important our sort of
(15:46):
our feeling of safety, ourself-confidence, our anxiety
levels affect our, our voice.
So is that something you workon with people?
Speaker 3 (15:54):
definitely it really is and it's.
I think a lot of people getquite surprised because they
come to me like teach me how tospeak better, teach me how to
speak better, teach me how to beconfident.
And so I start with okay, well,what experiences have you had
that have led you to believethat you can't?
Or where is this trauma?
(16:15):
Where are those memories?
For me it was school as well.
For the committee people, it'sthe you know.
Stand up and read in front ofthe room, simone, and you do it,
and you get a word wrong andeveryone laughs and the
teacher's, the you know.
Stand up and read in front ofthe room, simone, and you do it,
and you get a word wrong andeveryone laughs and the teacher
laughs and you know they weren'tvery kind to our teachers back
in the day.
So it's for me I have thosememories that it was.
The story based on thatexperience was do not get up and
(16:40):
speak in front of people.
It is not worth the bullying,the trauma that comes from
making a mistake.
So I started to, and manypeople do start to have this
wraparound, this belief of it'snot worth it.
It's not worth it.
I don't want to fail.
Failure is a bad thing and soalways, step one is we dive into
(17:05):
what is your background andwhere is this coming from?
Especially those who come to mewith you know even social
anxiety it's.
Let's look at those memories andthen we have to shine a light
on it and then the next phase isreally starting to.
You know, bring the word isquestioning, questioning it.
Is this true?
Is this true?
(17:25):
I'm a terrible speaker and Iwill always be.
Let's look for evidence.
Otherwise, let's really getinto those subconscious beliefs
and start to reframe and startto rewire them.
And that's the process, really.
And they're like, oh well, whatabout body language and what
about this?
And I'm like, well, go and getto that, don't worry.
Well, what about body languageand what about this?
(17:46):
And I'm like, well, go and getto that, don't worry.
But this is the most importantpart, because if you are on a
stage carrying around still allthose beliefs of I'm terrible at
this, I'm going to get laughedat, no matter, you can throw in
as many body language cues, youcan meditate, but you're still
carrying around that depth andthat has to change in order for
(18:08):
you to change I had a questionabout.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
You know you're talking about authenticity, is
there?
I mean, are there differentchallenges that come with when
someone's say, speaking aboutsomething they're really
passionate about I don'tfurthering a mental health cause
or something and delivering asales pitch for a company that
you work for, that you might notnecessarily kind of?
Speaker 1 (18:31):
it's not your message .
Asking for a friend?
Yeah, asking for a friend.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
No, but you know what I mean.
There's kind of like there'sdifferent contexts for speaking,
and sometimes you have todeliver the presentation with
the big boring facts, andsometimes you have to deliver
the presentation with the bigboring facts, and sometimes you
have to, you know, speak fromthe heart, and is there a big
difference?
Speaker 3 (18:51):
and should we be kind of channeling the same energy
for both?
Yeah, that's a really goodquestion, because what happens
in the work environment?
Like you just said, if you'reregurgitating information you've
done a million times, you'velost this sense of I care about
this jet matter, already walkingin with a huge barrier, because
(19:12):
anyone listening, no matter howwell you fake it, they know you
don't care.
So the fact is, if we can feelenthusiastic about a subject
matter, we can learn to applythat enthusiasm to a subject
that we're not so interested in.
(19:32):
So it's, and it's always vitalto know that the energy you
carry into the subject you'retalking about, into the room, is
the thing that the room isgoing to walk away with.
That's what they're going toremember.
They don't remember the data,they don't remember all the
facts, but the way you made themfeel is what they are going to
(19:55):
walk out.
That's the resonation they'regoing to have.
So how do you apply that?
When you're like, well, this isso boring to me, there are ways
of integrating it.
So it's really getting down to.
I speak with, I try and look athey, how do we care about this
subject matter and, I think, abigger picture.
(20:15):
Well, why do you care aboutyour work?
Why do you care about your work?
Why do you care that that yourclient or customer or colleagues
thinking about them again?
Why, well, what are they goingto benefit from this?
Forget that you're recitingthis over and over again.
What difference is this goingto make in their world?
(20:36):
What difference is this goingto make in their world?
What difference is this goingto make in their life?
And when you really get intothe heart of that and you start
to bring out, oh yeah, thiscould improve their life X, y
and Z.
So it's a very important stepactually to I have to do it
myself.
Sometimes I'm like I've done ameditation a million times and
sometimes I do it on a Zoom andI can't see anyone.
(20:58):
You know it's like a zoomwebinar and I'm sitting there
thinking.
I don't know people are asleep.
I don't know if anyone's ataverage or they just locked in
and run out and I have toimagine there's one, I imagine
just one person in that room whoreally needs this today.
So there's a little bit ofimagination involved and and
(21:22):
that then gets me into a placeof okay, this is important.
My work is important.
Another big part, big piece ofthe puzzle is is the self value,
the value, value, what you haveto share, whether it's coming
from a work capacity or whetherit's your message.
So we really spend a lot oftime on that that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
It's really interesting you comment on the
online environment as well,because clearly there are a lot
of people presenting to a lot ofblank screens these days and
also the blank screens probablyknow that the presentation will
be circulated afterwards andthey probably can be doing
something else.
But yeah, I think I like thatidea of just making you know,
assuming that your message isbeing well received, because
(22:05):
it's been given with with goodintent.
Yeah, and you just never know.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
I've had that when someone's in meditation and
imagined there's just one personwho needs this and and I've had
feedback, you know that reallymade a difference to me and I
was.
I was kind of, oh, oh, therereally was one person who needed
.
So, um, yeah, it's a.
It's really shifting back intothe listener to help evoke that
(22:34):
passion, that enthusiasm, thatthat can still time.
Yeah, it's a training.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Yeah yeah.
The Zoom thing is a nightmare,especially when you put up
slides and then you can't seeanyone's reaction.
It's so painful, like I don'tknow.
You say something you think isinteresting and you get no
feedback.
You make a joke and you can'ttell if people are laughing.
It can be really jarring andespecially if you share
(23:01):
something like personal and youwant, you know, some, some
empathy or something like that.
It can be brutal.
But I guess that's a differentchallenge to sharing in front of
a live audience where you knowpeople just walk away or things
like that, or they just you knowthey're on their phone.
Um, so, yes, extra challengesof the digital world.
(23:21):
Um, so what does it mean tospeak like a boss with heart?
Speaker 3 (23:28):
mm-hmm.
So that was this is the name ofmy very first public speaking
core, my program, my intimategroup where I was just.
I really wanted to help peoplelike me because my story was
very much I mentioned I was verymuch someone who hated public
(23:49):
speaking, terrified of it andthought I just wasn't born to do
this.
See people who are great at it,confident and especially.
And so at that time, rewindinga little bit, I came through the
television industry.
So I was a producer, executiveproducer, and even though I
didn't have to be on camera, Ihad to instruct a room or a team
(24:16):
sometimes hundreds of people,directors, directors, editors,
producers to go out and, youknow, create great telly.
And the more I had to do that Iassumed it would get easier and
sometimes it did, but I stillalways felt this sense of fear
and overwhelm and impostersyndrome, always felt this sense
(24:41):
of fear and overwhelm andimposter syndrome.
So, anyway, I really wanted tohelp people who were in that
place that I was, that werefeeling that sense of stuckness.
And the reason I went on to getout of that is because I
started working with a coach andshe told me, because I really
need to, this is a problem.
You know, I'm very red, I'mshaking, I'm supposed to be
(25:02):
their leader.
She's like, oh, you know, youcan just go and learn public
speaking skills.
And I was like, really, yeah, Iknow, go on to Toastmasters,
learn the skills and you'll getbetter.
And it's like I kind of knew Icould do that, but I didn't
really think it was possible forme.
I've been struggling with myown fears around any form of
(25:26):
public speaking and thisself-doubt, and it was this like
penny dropping moment when Iwas working with a coach about
it.
I was going to tell you howterrible it was.
She just said why don't you go?
Why don't you go learn how todo public speaking?
Go along to Toastmasters.
It's a class that teaches youhow to get up there and
(25:48):
communicate and learn all theskills.
And what I know now is their,their form of of lesson, is
around immersion therapy.
So it's, you know, each week Iwould I just moved to la at the
time so each week we would godown to a denny's diner on a
tuesday morning at 7 am and inthe room and you can imagine,
(26:10):
because it's in la there was allsorts of people with comedians
practicing their, their, theirmaterial.
There were people in marketing,there was a couple there, there
was this other couple who wererunning it, who had been doing
it for like 50 years, and sothat alone was very entertaining
and everyone was so different.
(26:31):
So I knew that, okay, noteveryone is brilliant at
speaking and they're all here toget better, and so I was like,
okay, I'm not the only one, Ican do this.
So that's where it started forme and that's where I committed
to choosing to improve theseskills and so that what I'd
(26:51):
walked away from with that was alot of the, the body language
and even some of thestorytelling.
I knew a lot of the essence ofstorytelling from my work as a
TV producer, but this was a newway, a new way of delivering it.
And after that I sort of at thesame time, I started embarking
(27:11):
on a meditation teacher training.
I started learning all abouthow to harness and how to
navigate the anxiety that I felt, how to manage my emotions, how
to manage my thoughts, andreally the so Speak Like a Boss
with Heart was the product ofall of this.
(27:32):
I wanted to bring the twoelements, the skills of public
speaking, along with the mindsettools to help people in the
workplace or if they've got awedding speech or whatever is
coming up, they could go out anddo it and they could do it well
.
And so all of my work is reallyabout coming from the heart.
(27:55):
That means that we're reallytapping into a heart wisdom
we're getting out of our head,we're getting out of the stories
and the doubt and theresistance and we're learning
how to channel our enthusiasmand passion through the heart.
And the speak like a boss partwas okay.
This, this is the client thatI'm working with a lot people,
people in the workplace.
(28:16):
So that's where that came fromand it's still going now
actually.
So that's my small greenprogram and the essence of it is
I take them through the stepsof writing and delivering a
TED-style talk, and the reason Idid that is because, after my
Toastmasters experience, Ieventually got to the point
(28:40):
where I was brave enough to do aTED Talk and, going through
that process and learning how toget on a stage and deliver and
not faint, I decided that'sgoing to be a useful format for
people to follow, no matter whatthey're doing.
You know that feeling of I didthat and they didn't collapse
(29:04):
and I now know these tools totake into any any of these life
experiences.
So that's where it all sort ofstarted and, yeah, it's very
much still a big part of my workyeah.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Well, I think I want to ask you about sort of
resilience.
But obviously people know whatresilience is.
You know tolerance, to stressthat kind of thing, and I know
you do work with people likethat.
But when someone's speaking upon stage you can be resilient to
, to a stress, of course, butsome people just speaking is not
stressful for them, it's justsomething they don't mind doing.
(29:42):
And I think a big part of thatis criticism is how they take
criticism, and this is somethingI really struggle with is is
being sensitive to criticism,and I I think the antidote to
that is having a greater senseof self, is not thinking about
what other people think of you,but knowing who you are, what
(30:05):
your talents are and things likethat.
So how do you help people tonot be so sensitive to criticism
?
Speaker 3 (30:14):
this is a big thing for me.
That's also been such a hugechallenge for me over my life
being open to criticism,judgment, and I think I sort of
talk about it as the umbrella offailure.
You know, if you stumble overyour words, if you lose track of
your thought, you have thisoverwhelming sense or you can do
(30:36):
that.
Everybody is just sat theresaying, thinking what is this
person doing?
Why are they even up there?
Who do they think they are?
That's a very I think that feltlike it was a very British
criticism.
Who do you think you aregetting on the stage?
So criticism is fundamentallyone of those barriers to being
able to be a confident speakerand so, on the flip side, the
(31:00):
antidote.
I very much spend a lot of timebuilding a sense of self-trust
and this idea that failure isnot a problem, and that is a
really big part of resilience,because if we are prepared to
fail, if we're prepared to takecriticism, to have judgment,
(31:26):
then that is the only way we cansucceed.
If we are not prepared, ifwe're too afraid of it, if we're
like, no, I don't want thecriticism, I don't want the
judgment, we're going to staysafe, we're not going to get on
stage.
We're not going to putourselves forward for promotion
or a pay rise.
So self-trust says I can get upthere and make a mistake and it
(31:50):
might not feel nice, but I cancome back from this.
It's not over.
I can trust myself enough toknow I can get better.
It's not over.
I can trust myself enough toknow I can get better.
The other part, the opposite,is I'm going to get up there and
fail and my life is over.
You know, that's where most ofour conditioning is, and I see
(32:13):
it especially in a corporateworld or even media.
You're taught failure is bad.
You fail an interview, you'renot getting the job.
Failure is bad.
You fail an interview, you'renot getting the job.
You fail to write a good script, you fail to do great pictures.
Let's get someone else who'sbetter.
There's no room for failure ina lot of business world as well.
So we're repeatedly told don'tmess up.
And then for me, as someone whodoesn't like as a bit of a
(32:36):
people pleaser and didn't likeany kind of criticism, I've had
to sit with it's okay not to beliked by everyone.
I've had to meditate on that.
I've had to really do a lot ofthought, work and belief, work
around building my self-trust.
And when I've got theself-trust I'm like it's okay,
(32:57):
this can go wrong and it's goingbe okay.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
I've got my own bath because they say out here yeah,
yeah, I think when you are doingI don't know tv or podcasting,
if you're not sort of upsettingsome people, you're not going to
be saying anything interesting.
You know, we we have said somecriticism for some of our guests
and some of the things we'vesaid, but it wasn't like
(33:23):
criticism of just like.
This is bad, it was well, wehave a different point of view
and that sparked debate and thatsparked interest and that's
entertaining for people.
So I think for me, one of thethings I tell myself when doing
a podcast and public speaking islike if you're not getting any
criticism, you're not doinganything worthwhile, you know,
because it would just be soboring and bland and no one's
going to be interested in that.
(33:43):
So that's one of the ways Itrick myself into saying
controversial things yeah, it'sa really good it's.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
I think it's a smart trickering.
Oh yeah, the brain tricks you.
You have to bring them in andand and yeah, see it as part and
parcel.
If I want to share a great, agreat message, if I want to do
something big in the world, itthere's.
There's no way that everybody'sgonna like it.
There is no way on earth thatyou're just gonna speak
(34:10):
authentically and passionatelyor have in different opinions
and everybody's gonna like it.
It's just impossible.
So if you get out of thatillusion like this is all gonna
go smooth, like and so it'sgoing to happen.
And how am I going to treatmyself?
How am I going to talk tomyself when I get that criticism
?
I used to be the worst.
(34:30):
I had the worst inner critic.
Don't ever make a mistake.
You know life is over and when.
And then that just held me backeven more.
So I didn't even have thecriticism, but I was giving it
to myself.
Yeah, I still, I still strugglewith it I'm uh.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
So I'm just getting over the shock of uh hearing
that rich needs to talk himselfinto saying something
controversial well.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
So I guess it's not talking myself in, but there was
there's.
You know, if I was just meetingsomeone new for the first time
and I really wanted them to likeme, I would probably filter
myself more and not say the sortof controversial things.
But this is a podcast, this isan entertainment medium.
We we've got to take risks,otherwise people are just not
going to tune in um so sayingthat how, you've heard us speak
(35:21):
for a little while, what wouldyou be coaching us?
How can we make this podcastbetter?
Can we get some free speakingcoaching live on air?
Right now is there a two-partquestion yeah, is our voices.
Could we doing be doing morewith our voice?
Are we doing too many ums anduhs?
Anything you've noticed?
Now?
Feel free to be very criticaloh okay.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
Well, look, I think what you're doing right is the
following so you naturally comecoming from a place of curious,
asking questions that you, Ifeel you were genuinely
interested in.
You know, learning some, maybesome tools for yourself or for
people you know, and obviouslythe audience.
So that alone allows me to feela connection and engagement
(36:06):
with you.
So that's like rule number one.
You got off to a great startthere, and, considering there's
two of you asking questions,you've got a nice flow.
You know there's not not.
I didn't feel too overwhelmedby a bombardment of questions
and it feels very natural.
So I think this is probablyquite a nice yes, feels, maybe
(36:29):
not like maybe the first one youdid, but it feels like it's
kind of easy for you, doesn'tfeel like it's challenging.
How do you feel about publicspeaking, though?
How do you feel when you get ona stage or that you have to
speak to that room all staringat you?
You can see all their faces.
How are you in that situation?
Speaker 1 (36:47):
me, I like it, I enjoy it, I get excited by it
and, um, yeah, I think it bringsout the best in me I'll give
you two examples.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
One is when I would I did the ceremony for my
friend's wedding.
I was super nervous but when Iwas up there it felt absolutely
amazing because it was obviouslyso heartfelt to two of my
friends marrying one another.
So it's like beautiful moment,amazing setting love.
That not so good is when I'm onlike a panel talking about a
development I've done.
That is kind of, you know I'vedone to death.
(37:20):
I'm so in the detail, I'm justanswering questions and it's
hard to be enthusiastic aboutthem.
So I think the authenticitypiece for me is really hard in
terms of if I don't believe insomething, it's really hard to
keep my energy and engagementhigh.
I suppose.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
And I think that is actually hitting nail on the
head there.
Because you believe in in this,you believe there's a sense of
this is a a deep, there's adeeper purpose with the work
you're doing podcast and whenyou believe both in yourself,
the, the idea you're sharing andthe people who are listening.
(37:55):
There's three levels to it.
It's not just again about youand I sit here and really get
into that energy of believing inthis.
Where can I find the passion?
Where can I find the enthusiasm?
When you ask the rightquestions, you'll find it, and
you can sit there with a listbefore you go on to a panel.
And, yeah, remember that person.
(38:16):
That one person in the roomjust might really need to be
listening to what you're aboutto share.
It might not be boring to themThey've heard it a hundred times
but in terms of things likefiller words, I'm guilty of the
filler word.
I know that it can be acultural thing as well.
In Liverpool, a lot of peoplehave many filler words and so we
(38:37):
carry them with us and the bestway to.
So this is what they did inToastmasters we would get up and
they would ask a spontaneousquestion, talk for two minutes
on peonies and you're like Idon't really know anything about
peonies, I was gonna wing it.
And every time you said afiller word, just so no likes
(39:01):
they would ding a bell.
And so you're getting you knowin the moment and you realize,
oh, I am using that filler worda lot In everyday life.
No one's going to be dinging abell for you and in some ways it
can feel quite harsh, butyou're just bringing enough
awareness to it to startnoticing it yourself.
(39:25):
Many fellow words we reallydon't notice.
Start noticing it ourselves andthen you just get to practice a
bit more.
A big one, I think again, youjust do it naturally is the
power of the pause yes, speakingand nervousness around speaking
.
We want to fill in the gaps, wewant to use filler words.
(39:48):
So if you can practice pausingbefore you speak and that means
taking those breaths, reallylistening to what that the other
person is, you know, wanting orsaying you now have a chance to
formulate your thoughts in amuch more concise way to what
the other person is wanting orsaying.
You now have a chance toformulate your thoughts in a
(40:10):
much more concise way.
So if you're sitting therelistening to me now and thinking
, oh, what's the next question?
Or maybe, oh, that's a goodpoint, I'll know that for later.
You're often thinking about I'mnot in your head, but that's
usually what's the next thing tosay, and sometimes that takes
(40:32):
you away from really gettinginto the moment.
So practicing the power of thepause just allows you to have
this powerful, powerful momentclarity, confidence.
And it was a mark twain who Iwas looking for it before
because it's so good.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Well, I was just going to say the pause thing in
podcasts is an interesting one,because often when I listen to a
podcast and the host or guestis using a lot of pauses, I
think, oh, my app is broken, oh,what's going on?
I look at my phone it's like,oh, there's an error.
But it's not.
It's just the person has takena pause and uh, yeah, we have a
podcast editor and she will takeout pauses that are are in
(41:12):
there because it's it's betterfor the, for the listener
experience.
But I guess that's maybe thedifference between podcasting
and giving a pitch and doing ated talk yeah, exactly yeah, the
, the edited down version.
Speaker 3 (41:27):
No one wants to hit pauses and it's like I remember
as a producer when I had tointerview, you know, guests,
celebrities, whatever.
There was an art to reallyhelping them bring out the best
story, helping them feelcomfortable, and I think you're
(41:47):
doing a great job with that.
But I think just always usefulto keep in mind, if I can hold
back or pick up on certainthings that they've said, it
might go off on a differenttangent, but hey, you might get
something really juicy out of it.
So, yeah, it's an art tolistening, to communicating, and
I can't fault you in many ways,to be honest.
(42:10):
So it's going on our season ifsomebody video of you, of you on
a panel.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
I'll give you a song oh yeah, uh, no, I refuse um.
Can we hear the mark twain?
Speaker 3 (42:22):
quite did you mark twain?
Where's he gone?
Speaker 1 (42:26):
Simone, you did say you're a people pleaser, though
Are you being too nice by nottelling?
Speaker 2 (42:30):
us our faults.
Yeah, maybe just tell us ourfair.
Don't stare at us whilst we'reactually calling.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
I don't think Andy actually consented to being
criticised so maybe you shouldjust criticise me, okay deal.
Speaker 3 (42:49):
so maybe, uh, you should just criticize me, okay
deal.
the right word might beeffective, but no word was ever
as effective as a rightly timedhorse that is good that is very
good, like that and also,especially when you're on a
stage or, you know, on a paddle,means that you're allowing the
listener to digest what you justshared.
(43:11):
When you keep filling the gaps,this now, oh, now I'm thinking
about the next thing.
Now, think about it.
Don't really?
It's a powerful moment to say,oh, now it's about to absorb,
because they want to think aboutwhat you just said as well.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
So, yeah, yeah that very much aligns with what
andrew huberman was saying aboutthe best ways to learn.
He did a whole podcast aboutlearning and he said the best
way to do that is to takefrequent pauses.
You know, do like a five minutepiece of information and then
give them 30 seconds just ofsilence, just to digest that.
(43:47):
And yeah, just keeping doingthose, those frequent pause.
I can't remember exactly howlong he said, if it was a pause
for for 30 seconds or fiveminutes, but yeah, pauses are
are useful for our learning yeah, and and the reason I talk
about it is because they'reactually really hard.
Speaker 3 (44:03):
It's such an awkward moment that we were like, oh,
they don't like feeling thisawkwardness, but to be able to
sit with that is so powerful.
You know that all ties into theemotional intelligence and
self-awareness when it comes tobeing a good speaker.
It has to start with that.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
Yes absolutely, I wanted to talk about, if I I may
change the tangent a little bit.
You spoke earlier about your umbackground and I think you've
done um meditation training.
How much, if any, does thatkind of feed into the work you
do now?
Speaker 3 (44:40):
a huge amount.
Yeah, it was.
It was interesting because Inever imagined myself as being a
meditation teacher and I wasvery much identified.
I think you know I was comingup to nearly 20 years in the TV
industry.
So to then be like, oh, I'mjust going to go off and be a
meditation teacher, it was soalien to me.
But there was a couple thingsgoing on.
(45:04):
Work challenges were definitelya big part of personal anxiety,
overwhelm.
I was using food a lot, alcohola lot to cope with the stress
and the intensity of.
I sometimes would do 27 hourshifts on shows like Big Brother
Just silly, crazy workconditions and everyone was
(45:29):
doing it.
So I was like, oh well, it'snot.
You know, I have to pack it.
This is how you get ahead, justpush through.
And I didn't have a breakdownor anything.
But I knew that this was nothealthy and I knew I needed to
have used something other thansugar and alcohol to to get me
through.
So the meditation was the first, was really such an empowering
(45:51):
moment for me that I realized,oh, I can take some sort of
control of this I have, I canmanage these emotions in a way
and I can help reduce my levelsof cortisol, I can sleep better,
you know I can.
Obviously, the work conditionsdefinitely needed to change as
well, but that was a reallyawakening moment.
(46:12):
A real awakening moment and aswhen I started to learn about
how to do public speaking, howto be a better leader in the
workplace, I knew that thatmindset part was so important
and it really does play a partin everything I teach now.
(46:33):
So, aside from the publicspeaking courses and the
pitching presentation, I work alot with corporates.
So I teach seminars, workshopsall around managing stress,
managing anxiety, because I knowif everyone has the ability or
even just a few techniques, thiscould start a ripple effect.
(46:57):
They could then start lookinginto oh I can do something about
this, what else can I do?
They're not a victim to thecircumstances or their work.
They can actually make adifference and make a change.
So, yes, meditation, I went offand did a teacher training, this
400 hour teacher training, andI really just wanted to feel
(47:20):
better.
Another, another thing in thebackground that was going on was
my husband and I were reallystruggling to have a baby and we
spent so many years and so muchmoney through the whole
fertility journey and it wasreally breaking my heart on so
many levels and it wasn't goodfor our relationship, and so
(47:41):
meditation then became a big,bigger part for me, because I
needed it to help with the griefand to help me get through
those challenges way of offeeling that sense of self-worth
fulfillment, of being able tomove through their pain and not
(48:10):
suffer so much.
Speaker 1 (48:11):
So it's all very interlinked, they're not
separate absolutely well, Ithink one thing people think
when they start meditation isI'm gonna fail, and what do you
have to say that?
How do you fail at meditation?
Speaker 3 (48:28):
okay, this is a good one.
This looks like people sayingto me simone, I can't meditate,
my mind is too busy, I'm way toodistracted and just I'm not
good at it, can't do it.
And I used to think the samething like well, if we?
Well, if meditation is sittingon a cloud of bliss clearing all
(48:48):
my thoughts huge misconceptionthen A I'm not doing it right
and B I'm failing at it.
You can't fail at meditationbecause it is a practice.
It's not a goal.
What you're doing is developinga sense of awareness.
(49:08):
Failing that meditation is likesaying I went to the gym today
and I could not pick up that100-pound weight, so I failed at
being strong.
You're like no, you're notgoing to be strong on the first
attempt, and it's theprogressive slowly building up.
So the idea of failing one islike there I go again, worrying
(49:33):
about the future.
I'm dread, reminiscing on thepast, the problems, the pain and
actually those failed moments.
Or those are the moments ofawakening, cause if you can
catch the thought and be awareof it and be aware of the
emotion, that's the first stepin that's meditation.
(49:56):
So if you're easy to gobackwards and forwards from the
thought, a worry, a doubt.
There it is again.
There it is again.
That's the practice.
There it is again, there it isagain.
That's the practice.
And as long as you're notjudging it and wanting it to go
away or fighting it, you canthen, over time, start to have
this amazing sense ofgroundedness, this feeling of I
(50:17):
don't have to be ruled by mythoughts, I don't have to be
dictated by these beliefs.
That's such an empowering placeto be.
So.
No, you can't fail.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
And meditation yeah, that practice of surrender, I
think, is something that iscomes up in so many different
traditions.
You know breathwork, ayahuascaand meditation and it's it's
just the people who fail atmeditation, I think, are the
people who need to understandthat.
You know you're surrendering isa sort of an action of strength
(50:50):
.
You know it's not weakness.
You're surrendering to themoment, you're surrendering to
your pain, you're surrenderingto the grief, and I find so many
people struggle with that andit really holds them back and
they get stuck in.
You know their pain or they'restuck in in their anxiety and
things like that.
But, um, yeah, I think it'sreally important.
And accountability that'ssomething you speak about and uh
(51:14):
, yeah, how important isaccountability?
Speaker 3 (51:19):
you know, accountability really for me has
is, like I said, what evenworking with a coach that first
time around, the very first timeI did, allowed me to A see what
was possible to be in thecompany of someone who was
supporting, supportive andhelped me create a clear
(51:40):
direction of where I wanted togo, a direction of where I
wanted to go, and then showingup for her every week, I just
saw a huge shift in my life thatyou know, friends can do it to
a degree and you know, sometimesfamily members, but to have one
person or even a group ofpeople, all you're focused on is
helping you meet those goals.
(52:02):
And the reason I think it'simportant is because as soon as
you say I want to.
So I've just signed up to dothe LA marathon next year.
Never done one before and it,you know, took me a while to get
my head into it, but I dideventually.
So that was a is a huge changefor me.
(52:23):
I've got to start running.
I'm sort of, you know, am Isomeone who can be a runner when
I've always hated it and theprocess of doing something big
and scary?
I have to have accountabilityfor it.
So I've told friends I just,you know I've got a plan and
what you know, work with a coachthese are all ways to help me
(52:45):
meet that goal, because it's abig goal.
It's a huge change for me andeven if you wanted to have a
small change in your life,change is fundamentally hard.
It's unfamiliar, and even whenyou've got so much excitement
and motivation in the beginning,it usually tapers off because a
changes too weird for us.
(53:07):
It's very, you know, we see itas a threat.
It's kind of like no, I draw onstaying in the same place.
It feels safe.
So the accountability elementhelps you through the hurdles
every time you hit the lowpoints and it says I need help.
And often we do need need help.
We can't just do it on our own.
So, yeah, I've run a fewaccountability groups because,
(53:30):
again, it's just something thatI know personally has helped me
in many ways and, as you know,do it the right way, then you,
then you can also meet thosegoals yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker 1 (53:44):
I accountability people.
If they've got the money, Ithink you should use coaches for
whatever they want, because somany people just say, oh, I
can't do this, I can't exercise.
Well, when people get apersonal trainer, just having
that accountability, they turnup to the gym.
Or I can't meditate, whenpeople have a meditation coach,
they're more likely to do itsame with any kind of yeah,
(54:06):
accountability based thing.
It doesn't don't necessarilyhave to pay for a coach.
You know you can do it with afriend and things like that, but
just having that support is sovaluable definitely yeah, or you
can go and find a freeaccountability group or your
friends.
Speaker 3 (54:23):
It's just committing to it really saying yeah, this
is the plan.
Speaker 1 (54:27):
I told each other accountable yes, okay, it might
be unfair to um ask you thisbecause you said about it off
off air.
Speaker 2 (54:36):
Um, simone, but can you talk a little bit about like
the future, like what?
What's next for you?
What are you working on?
When does this work?
Speaker 3 (54:43):
um grow where is it going?
Yeah, it's.
It's interesting because andlike the meditation teacher
question, though I'm not gonnabe, I'm not a meditation teacher
, and or what could I ever beone the same happens around
public speaking.
You know, I had all this senseof well, I'm not exactly this
(55:03):
big inspirational motivation atthe speaker.
And why am I doing this work?
And, ultimately, the people I'mworking with?
Now, every time I work with aclient, the sense of fulfillment
to help them go from that pointA that moment of I'm dreading
this, I'm terrible at it,everyone's judging me into a
(55:24):
place of acceptance, into aplace of belief and courage.
I can go out and I can go intothat room and I can do this
while I have that trust inmyself.
That alone is so motivating forme.
But I'm also working with a lotof experts and people with an
amazing story or a reallyimportant message, and they
(55:46):
don't quite know how to tellthat story.
They don't know how to write it, they don't know how to deliver
it in a way that will createimpact.
And when I work with those typesof people, I'm like you have
got such an important message.
Whoever you tell this to, Iknow they're going to be sitting
there thinking I need to hear.
I know they're going to besitting there thinking I needed
(56:07):
to hear this and this is goingto make a difference in my life.
So if I can give them that sortof confidence and the platform
to be able to do it whether it'son the tech stage, whether it's
through social media videos,however you want to do it that
is super inspiring for me.
So I want to do more of that.
I helped three three experts inthe past six months to do a ted
(56:32):
talk, so I've got them bookedon a stage and and I helped them
through each part of theprocess.
Speaker 1 (56:37):
It's just really fun.
Speaker 3 (56:38):
You know each element of it, so more of that, please.
Speaker 1 (56:42):
Awesome awesome, and how do people find you I?
Speaker 3 (56:48):
do I have a website?
I'm on Instagram.
I think the best thing to do isat the moment, I'm creating new
courses.
I offer free workshops a lot,so it's either on my Instagram
We'll signpost it We'll put iton there.
Yeah, it's simontieatmecom andget on my newsletter because
that's where they'll hear aboutany of my workshops.
(57:08):
If it's a company, I do a lotof corporate work, so they will
contact me and I can send over aproposal and tailor it to their
company as well.
What does your team need?
What specifically do you wantto achieve?
Achieve out of um, a publicspeaking course?
Do people just really need toget better at the presentations,
(57:30):
and often there's much more toit, but that's um.
Yeah, they can just email meand I can send them information
awesome.
Speaker 2 (57:40):
Well, thank you very much, simone yes, thank you very
much indeed for giving us yourtime.
Yeah, so interesting talking toyou and I think that thing
about knowing that it matters tosomeone is a really good
takeaway, so thank you for thatyeah, you're welcome brilliant
(58:01):
hi, welcome back.
Uh, the what my point on the?
Um that one of the last thingsI said I thought was a very good
one, though I say so myselfwhich is, I think you know, in
the, in the environment of zoomsand people not being on the
screen and perhaps um a littlebit of uh monotony, just
thinking that what you're sayingmatters to one person, um, and
(58:24):
I think it's a very nice messageis that what we're doing does?
Speaker 1 (58:27):
is that what we're doing now?
Just telling, and thanks to ourone listener for being there.
Speaker 2 (58:32):
We, we hear you, we see you, yeah um no, I thought
it's a really nice message and areally important one to take
away yeah, so shall I.
Speaker 1 (58:40):
Shall I do say the things that I thought I did
really well, now oh, yeah, sure,highlight my contributions yeah
, none.
None saying controversialthings and building yourself up
to it.
Speaker 2 (58:50):
That's a good thing.
Um, yeah, no, I thought Ithought she also.
Um, I thought it was also veryuh, I enjoyed your interaction
um surrounding uh, when you saidthat you actually really enjoy
it, you relish it.
Um, because it come off theback of, of, I think, her
expecting us to be like we'repretty nervous and dread it and
(59:13):
have to build up to it, which iskind of more where I sit, but
it's, I guess, with yourpractice of um having to be an
authority on breath work.
Maybe you've got used to, uh,used to it um, I think it's just
a star for attention.
Speaker 1 (59:27):
Didn't get enough attention from my parents and
then when I would go up on stageyou know, in school plays and
public speaking competitions Iwould get the uh, the love and
attention that I am.
I wasn't getting elsewhere.
Speaker 2 (59:38):
So, yeah, there's a deeper, deeper insight into my
time for that now, but I was themain part in the school play,
so maybe there's something goingon there for me as well.
Speaker 1 (59:47):
Maybe, maybe, yes, well, more on Andy and I's
childhood trauma next week.
Speaker 2 (59:54):
No, thanks again to Simone for coming on.
I think speech andcommunication is so important in
today's world, maybe more thanever.
It feels quite divisive, soconnecting and putting your
message across all good thingsto know about.
Speaker 1 (01:00:13):
Yes, indeed, all right.
And where do they find us, andy?
Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
Great question.
They find us on Instagram atthe Breath Geek at Andy Esam,
and they find us on Richard'swebsite, richardlblakecom.
Yeah, and sign up for ournewsletter.
Sign up for our newsletter.
The first one is now out.
The second one is out.
Probably the fourth, fifth,they're probably all out now.
Speaker 1 (01:00:38):
We had a bit of a malfunction with the second one.
We had a malfunction in that itwent out slightly prematurely.
It's still fine.
Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
Uh, it's not offensive or anything like that
no, some of some of richard's uhfitness um photos ended up in
there um from the lock to theprivate file the before uh,
there's a good reason to sign upfor my newsletter.
Speaker 1 (01:01:03):
You may get things that I accidentally sent out to
all of my contacts instead ofkeeping them private.
All right, well, thank you forlistening this far.
Speaker 2 (01:01:12):
Thank you for listening.
Yeah, and see you next week.
Bye-bye.
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