October 25, 2024 • 50 mins
Unlock the secrets to achieving lasting physical well-being as we sit down with Natalie from Spiro Health, an esteemed chiropractor specializing in Advanced Biostructural Correction (ABC). Forget what you've learned about posture being a conscious effort; Natalie enlightens us on how ABC offers a revolutionary approach that could transform your relationship with your spine. We tackle common myths surrounding posture and exercise, sharing practical tips that require no fancy equipment, promising relief from those persistent aches and pains.
Embark on a journey to optimize your spinal health with our discussion on a three-month stabilization program designed to reshape your body with twice-weekly sessions. Natalie walks us through the spine's unique ability to self-correct—except when it comes to backward bends—and how this knowledge can be leveraged to prevent common injuries. The importance of consistency, the influence of footwear, and the role of everyday activities in spinal health underscore why the spine is the unsung hero of our overall biomechanics and well-being.
Explore the nuances of safe exercise practices, with a spotlight on yoga's impact on the body and how to maintain neutrality in your movements to avoid injuries. Memory foam mattresses and shoes are put under the microscope as we question their true benefit to body alignment. From ideal sleeping postures to the choice of shoes, we leave no stone unturned in providing you with a comprehensive guide to better health. Plus, discover how frequent posture changes and awareness during daily routines can greatly enhance your comfort and health. Let Natalie’s expertise inspire your journey to a healthier spine and a more comfortable life.
FOLLOW OUR SOCIALS:
Guest: Natalie Robertson
Website: https://spirohealth.co.uk/
Linktree: https://linktr.ee/spirohealth
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/spirohealth/
HOSTS:
Richard Blake
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/The_Breath_Geek
https://richardlblake.com/
https://linktr.ee/RichardLBlake
Facebook: @TheOptimisedU
Andy Esam
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/andyesam/
PODCAST:
Laughing Through The Pain: Navigating Wellness
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl_gOq4wzRjwkwdjYycAeng
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/laughing-through-the-pain-navigating-wellness/id1726046369
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2TdW2qSWyVpXUyfKvNrBon?si=ff8aba9b92c24616
Buzzsprout: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2289623
Find us on Instagram
Richard @The_Breath_Geek
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl_gOq4wzRjwkwdjYycAeng
Webiste - www.TheBreathGeek.com
Please leave us a review, like and subscribe.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
hello, oh, hello oh, it's me, hey, big breath big
sigh that was, um, that was themost unprofessional I've ever
been.
Um, when people were warming upfor that podcast but not even
warming up we started recording.
I was at a huge breath and wehad to stop recording.
I felt a bit embarrassed aboutthat.
But after that, what a crackingepisode.
(00:21):
Who's it with?
Speaker 1 (00:23):
it's with natalie from spiro health and she is an
advanced biostructuralcorrection chiropractor.
So we get into the body in someways, not not, you know, not in
the weird way, but like how tosit, how to sleep, how to stand
the injuries.
We pick up the things we mightbe doing wrong unknowingly that
(00:46):
are affecting our bodies, ifwe're creating aches and pains
and things.
So, yeah, I feel like peopleare going to learn a lot.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
I think you might have learned a lot too
absolutely, yeah, I um I didlearn a lot and I think um
jam-packed full of practicaltips, which is always a good
thing, um no fancy gizmos needed, um, and she actually said the
best chair is the ikea diningchair, which my machine is not
in the same price bracket as alot of the uh office stuff you
(01:15):
are seeing these days.
So some really interesting uhrevelations as well.
Um, and good tips for, yeah,sleeping standing.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
And well, there's a lot of hope in there, isn't
there because, um, you know, itsounds like abc can really uh
sort your body out in a way thatyou might not think is possible
yeah, absolutely that was whatit gave me because, as I said in
my story, you know, I had thissort of downward trajectory of
more and more injuries, less andless mobility, until I find
(01:44):
found abc and it really, yeah,it flipped my trajectory from a
downward spiral to an upwardsone.
So, yeah, listen up, listener,if you are someone who needs a
bit of help and hope withregards to your, your body and
your structure yeah, enjoy hey,listener, if you're enjoying the
insights and stories we shareon our pod, then don't miss out
(02:06):
on any of our episodes.
Hit the subscribe button todownload and listen to our
conversations at yourconvenience.
Natalie, welcome to the podcast.
Tell us how does ABC differfrom traditional forms of
(02:28):
chiropractic care?
Speaker 3 (02:32):
And yes, that is the million-dollar question that I
get asked most days Rich.
So ABC is an acronym, for it'squite a mouthful advanced by a
structural correction.
I studied in South Africaoriginally and I did a technique
(02:53):
of chiropractic calleddiversified.
So there's I mean, don't get mewrong, there's about 200
different types of techniques ofchiropractic.
So, and all of them work reallywell, I would say, and I was
doing really well using mytechnique when I came across ABC
, it became way more predictablefor me.
I had people in my office goingand experiencing miracles in
their body every week, which isso rewarding as a practitioner.
And what I would say istraditional chiropractic it's
(03:20):
all by hand, which is fantastic,because that's the healing
power of what we do.
It's all by hand, which isfantastic because that's the
healing power of what we do.
But in traditional chiropracticyou are changing somebody's
configuration of what'shappening in their body, which
gives them temporary relief, inmy opinion, whereas ABC is a
longer-term, more permanent,more transformational treatment,
(03:42):
because you fix the bodyliterally.
I mean that sounds like carsalesy, but you do, you fix the
body, and I've been doing it nowfor long enough to be able to
really say that with confidence.
So we work with what the bodycan't fix, so you can fix
yourself.
And specifically, if you want toget specific.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
I'd like to get specific, if that's all right,
yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Yeah.
So, andy, if you think aboutthe spine, the spine has three
curves to it, and from behind,ideally you want to be a hundred
percent straight, and it's madeup of Lego pieces called
vertebrae, basically.
And where those vertebrae sitin terms of biomechanics, and
all the curves, is reallyimportant for how it props us up
.
Because when you talk aboutposture, posture isn't something
(04:29):
and all you listeners out thereare going posture and everyone
sits up straight.
Or as soon as I say achiropractor, they're like oh,
you do chiropractic andeverybody sits up really
straight.
It's hilarious.
You should not be thinkingabout your posture, it should
just be there.
It should be something thatwhen you stand up, you're
standing upright, you'rebreathing, while your ribs are
moving, while your head's in agood position.
(04:50):
It's not a conscious thing.
So that's one thing, because alot of people think, oh, I can
do chin tucks, I can hang offthe end of my bed to get the
arch back into my neck, I can dothese millions of exercises and
stretches and actuallypointless.
So back to structure these Legopieces or these vertebrae.
They have millions or hundredsof muscles around them to
(05:10):
stabilize them.
We don't have muscles attachedin the spine that can pull one
vertebra backward on another.
That's the only time, as ahuman being, we struggle to
correct ourselves, becauseotherwise we're designed to
correct ourselves.
That's one of the biggestpremises of ABC.
So when these bones go forwardand it doesn't have to be from
(05:31):
major car accidents or rugbytackles or big falls or traumas,
it can be from the things thatwe do every single day, like
sitting in a certain position,working as we are now, like
having this podcast, or sleepingin bed.
Where's your head?
Where's your pillow height?
What's your mattress doing?
What shoes are you wearing?
These have an impact on theselittle Lego pieces or vertebrae.
So when bones go forward, ieyour body looks more collapsed
(05:55):
or more hunched over, we don'thave muscles to pull that back.
So once you've collapsed avertebra, that's it for us.
Now, instead of us falling over,the body's super clever and it
twists up to compensate for that.
So we don't fall over, we justtwist up.
But now these little twistshappen from a really young age
(06:16):
and change the biomechanics ofthe body.
But they don't only change thebiomechanics.
They'll change how the bloodflows.
They'll change how the braincommunicates with the nerves.
They'll change how the bloodflows.
They'll change how the braincommunicates with the nerves.
They'll change how hormones aredistributed around the body.
So there's a whole lot ofdifferent things that can affect
, but basically it's thesecompensations or twists that
create a pattern and then whenyou use a body that's twisted up
(06:39):
, you start wearing yourself out.
So there's a lot of evidence ofus reversing things like
arthritis, reversing knee issues.
There's x-rays pre and post ofsomebody having ABC.
You know, one or two or threeyears later and you're looking
at a completely different spine,completely different knees,
completely different hips.
It's fascinating.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Yeah, it is fascinating and I am a big
advocate for ABC.
My story, I think, is probablyquite a typical one in that I
was doing a lot of CrossFit atthe time.
Well, prior to that, I wasdoing a lot of football, soccer,
and I'd stopped playing soccerbecause I had injuries.
And then I was doing CrossFitand I could do that for a while,
(07:20):
but I just kept on picking upmore and more injuries for a
while.
But I would just, I just kepton picking up more and more
injuries shoulder injury, thenelbow injury, chronic mid-back
pain and then hip pain and thenachilles pain.
Uh, achilles and it, my, my, mybody was just like slowly
declining and this was aroundsort of age age 28, 29, so still
a young, a young person.
(07:41):
I shouldn't have been goingthrough those things.
And I had tried regularchiropractic and you know those
chiropractors were were amazingpeople and super smart, but it
wasn't working for me.
You know, I'd get a bit oftemporary relief and then the
pain would just come back in adifferent spot and it was just
like managing injuries.
Until I went to the biohackersmeetup and saw Natalie and her
(08:03):
former colleague Stuart giving apresentation and I thought, ah,
this might be what I needed,like I couldn't go for the quick
fix, I couldn't just go allright, I want to.
You know, I want to one session, I want to be fixed.
I've realized I had to go on along, multi-year journey and
that's when I started at SpiraHealth in Putney and really had
(08:24):
to change a lot of the things Idid in my life.
But over time I did get relief.
I don't have those sameinjuries.
I'm still doing CrossFit at 37,still PRing my snatch, age 37.
So I'm, yeah, definitely a bigadvocate.
But, yeah, what other kinds ofstories do you have of clients
changing in ways such as I did?
Speaker 3 (08:48):
I mean, it's not only sort of this age group, it's
also newborn, newborn babies,unbelievable.
I mean, I do the smallestamount of work not much work
with them, because they'reobviously super young and their
bodies haven't gone through muchof this what I've spoken about.
They're not even sittingupright.
So bones going forward andtwisting up probably haven't
(09:09):
even happened yet.
But there's another system thatwe deal with which is called
the meningeal system.
For those listeners, anyonethat's not familiar with that,
meningitis is an inflammation ofthe meninges and the meninges
is, like a think of it, like askin that covers the brain and
spinal cord.
It's got three layers to itwhich are usually really loose,
really really loose.
But when your body goes throughtwists and bends and shifts it
(09:34):
gets tightened up so it startsto affect the nervous system
directly.
So ABC deals with those.
So we do structural care but wealso do a very deep form of
stretching on this meningealtension.
So yes, from babies withsleeping issues, scoliosis,
people with, and they get toldby orthopedics nothing can be
(09:55):
done other than surgery.
And it's not true.
I've seen it with my own eyes.
I've got results in my ownoffice of a change in scoliosis.
It takes time.
Scoliosis is a doublecompensation, so it's a twist on
a twist.
So it is complicated and itdoes take a long time, but it's
100% possible to help with that.
(10:16):
I mean I've been in tears withgood friends of mine because
they haven't moved a shoulderfor I don't know five years and
then suddenly one appointmentnot saying one appointment and
it's fixed.
I'm just saying, along the lineof the journey of fixing
someone in a number of months oryears, suddenly the shoulder
just unlocks and they can justmove their shoulder and then
it's like it's a big moment.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Wow.
So can you talk a bit moreabout the patient journey and
what you're actually doing,because it sounds like when rich
came to it, he realized thatit's maybe going to take longer,
but obviously, as you said, theresults last longer, in many
cases forever.
So can you talk a little bitabout the patient journey and
what you're actually doing?
Speaker 3 (10:58):
so typically you obviously assess the client,
take a good medical history,orthopedic, neurological tests
etc.
Take some post, take somepostural pictures, x-rays if
needed, et cetera, and then onceyou've looked at them and go,
okay, listen, I can help you.
And there's quite a cleardefinition of what we can and
can't help with ABC.
The three things that we do notwork with is malignancy,
(11:19):
fracture and diabeticcomplications.
Those three things we won'twork with.
But everything else, everythingelse post-surgery, lots of
neurological conditions thatpeople wouldn't touch with a
barge pole if they werechiropractors.
We are, we're there.
So people come in and we assessthem.
We usually start with athree-month program, so it's
(11:41):
called stabilization.
We are seeing them twice a week.
I say this because just byresearch that we do to transform
the body using this technique,the quickest way to see the
results is to come in two perweek.
Three per week doesn't reallyaccelerate it too much.
One per week is too smallbecause people tend to mess
themselves up in inverted commaswith how they sit, sleep,
(12:03):
because people tend to messthemselves up in inverted commas
with how they sit, sleep andstand, which I can get into a
bit later on some tips on thosethings, but it's hard to fix a
body and transform someone'sspine if they keep going back
into patterns and habits.
Much like any kind of therapy,you're going to have Go back
into old patterns and it slowsyou down.
So typically it looks like that.
To start with, andy, pain relief.
(12:23):
This is the frustrating partfor a practitioner.
I've had people with discinjuries crawl into my office
they can't even walk through thedoor literally crawling through
my office into the treatmentroom.
I do one session and they walkout Frustratingly in their head
they're like, wow, I'm almostthere.
(12:45):
I mean, I couldn't even walkwhen I went into this and it's a
miracle.
It does seem like a miracle.
The healing and complete healingof the tissue and inflammation
and et cetera hasn't happened.
But there's been so much neuraltension released from the
stretches we do and thebiomechanics that we fix that
the whole body just workscompletely differently very
quickly.
Mechanics that we fix that thewhole body just works completely
(13:07):
differently very quickly.
But the challenge is educatingsomeone in the fact that your
body will revert back to oldpatterns very quickly.
This is why the program isthree months and I see you twice
a week.
So, frustratingly, we can getreally good results really
quickly.
People breathe better.
Clarity's there, energy,energy's up.
You know pain is 70, 80 goneand yet you know the education
(13:29):
is listen.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
This is an investment and this is going to take some
time yeah, I think one of thethings that I found fascinating
was how the spine is a rootcause for a lot of people's
injuries.
You Someone might have a kneeinjury and they go and get loads
of physical therapy and amassage around the quad and the
calf but nothing helps it.
(13:50):
And then you fix their spineand their knee pain goes away.
You see a lot of that.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
I see so much of it and once I did ABC for myself as
in, learned about it.
Abc for myself as in, learnedabout it.
You know, cognitively I waslike makes so much sense.
It makes so much sense as towhat the actual cause of that
biomechanical problem in theknee is.
So when someone comes in with a, you know and they go oh, I've
(14:20):
had surgery, I've got cartilageissues, I've torn ACLs without
even having trauma, just runninga marathon or something, and I
don't touch the knee.
I mean, I do very minimal workon the limb at all and the knee
straightens, the strengthreturns, they can walk better,
they can sit better, they canexercise and I haven't even done
any work on the knee.
So, yes, the spine is the key.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Hmm, and then there's that idea that the spine can
correct itself in all directionsapart from backwards.
Is that just like a hypothesis?
Is there evidence for that?
How did that come into being,that concept?
Speaker 3 (14:56):
Yeah, that is a good question.
I mean I'm probably not in aposition now to give you, but I
could research that for you andgive you some factual as to how
they really picked that up,Because it was essentially three
guys, three main guys in the1970s.
Jc Jatkiewicz was one of themain guys and just an absolute
(15:19):
genius when it comes tobiomechanics of the body.
It can look at you from 20meters away and tell you what's
going on in your body.
So, yeah, I'll find out aboutthat and give you some more on
that topic.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Can we move on to some of the things that are bad
for our posture, or maybe someof the activities that most
damage our posture, or some ofthe kind of shoes we're wearing
way we're sleeping, the thingsyou mentioned earlier.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Yeah.
So just to keep it super simple, the two things that you don't
want to do with your spine ishyperflex it.
So there's a natural, normalamount of flexion of the neck or
the mid back or the lower back,and then there's a natural, a
normal extension of the neck,extension of the thorax and
extension of the lumbar spine,of the thorax and extension of
the lumbar spine.
And if you stay within thoserealms you'll be fine, as in.
(16:07):
I'm specifically talking aboutexercises.
So no hyperflexion, nohyperextension, just as a basic
rule.
So when you're doing things likeweights, you just want to keep
your body as neutral as possible.
I mean, I remember when I wasworking with personal trainers
and when you're doing back orthink that they'll specifically
ask you to arch your back, andwhen you're doing back or think
that they'll specifically askyou to arch your back, like when
you're doing a pull down, toreally activate those muscles,
(16:28):
and small things like that canreally not create an injury
there and then.
But you do that on a dailybasis, three, four, five times a
week, and the likelihood of youpushing one of those bones
forward or putting it intoextension is really high, and
then the likelihood of your bodytwisting up is high, and then,
of course, your injuries comeand little niggles come thick
(16:48):
and fast eventually.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Yeah, I was going to say there's this idea that
everyone should be doing yoga,but you have a lot of recovering
yoga instructors in yourpractice, don't you?
Speaker 3 (17:02):
So what was super interesting about that is
because I actually really enjoyyoga, I knew it wasn't good for
my body personally, and so whatwe did is we got together with
about 20 yogis, reallyexperienced yogis.
Just had some conversationswith them and a lot of them were
saying, I mean, they've beendoing some of them yoga for 20
plus years and they were sayingit's interesting how their
(17:25):
bodies are no longer able to dothe poses as they've got further
along in their careers.
And I'm like, wow, I mean you'dthink that you'd keep that
what's the word elasticity?
And keep that stretching of themuscles because you're doing it
so often.
So it would just be, theflexibility would be there, but
slowly but surely they werelosing it.
Their flexibility would bethere, but slowly but surely
(17:47):
they were losing it.
Um, so we worked with them andwe came up with a yoga flow, um,
spine friendly yoga flow Iactually have it on my, my
website which isn't any hyperextension or hyper flexion, but
it does involve twisting,because you can do things that
twist, you can latch, reflex,you know you can do a safe
amount of flexion and extension.
I enjoy the breath work, thestress management of yoga, so
that's a pretty safe way to doyoga.
(18:08):
There is ways that you canleave out certain poses.
So if you are a yoga fanatic,if you're in your session with
yoga, I would just look atreducing the amount of flexion
and extension that you do,forcing your body and also in
certain poses that you're doingone side versus the other.
Sometimes it can get quitecompetitive and you with
yourself even, and you want topush that stretch.
(18:29):
I wouldn't push your body intoa stretch because when you are
stuck in one of those twists orthose configurations I speak
about, if you are going tostretch out what the body is
actually doing to stabilize you,you could really destabilize
yourself and cause some bigproblems yeah, I think yoga is
like the idea of having someflexibility is good.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Taken to the extreme becomes unhelpful.
The same with like vegetablesare good for you, so let's only
eat vegetables and you get.
You know all the complicationsthat come with with veganism.
And the same with, yeah,probably strength training or
running marathon runners whojust have, you know, emaciated
and things like that.
Like we do, we do need balanceand it's sad to see that when
(19:11):
people just think they're doingsomething good for themselves,
like yoga, and they're actuallyharming themselves when they
take it to the extreme.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Two things in my office.
The main injuries come well,actually three.
Let me talk about three.
One, yoga.
So people post yoga.
Oh, I've been doing yoga forsix weeks and I picked up this
or that.
Two is the deadlift in the gym.
So the deadlift in the gym is agreat exercise.
I mean, let's face it, itreally activates your posterior
(19:39):
chain and it's wonderful.
But the likelihood of youpushing or dragging a vertebra
forward, doing that is very high.
So I usually tell my clients tostay away from deadlifts if
they can.
And what's the third thing?
Speaker 1 (19:58):
How do you feel about hex bar dead deadlifts?
I've heard they are better yeah, look there's.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
There's some, some different techniques.
I was going to say that thetechnique is important, but also
what's worth saying is itdepends on the body.
So I might do that deadlift andmy body probably handles it
quite well, but somebody elsewho's just twisted or just a
little weak in that certain spot, it'll create an issue over
time you were going to talkabout sleeping, natalie, and I
(20:26):
was looking forward to that yes,so that was actually the third.
The third thing that I see inthe office that creates the most
injuries or the people come inwith is sleeping on a memory
foam mattress memory foam andit's a big one.
It's a big one because mostpeople have invested a lot of
money in it and it's so wellmarked that you think you're
investing in your health.
But actually I cannot fix abody that sleeps on a memory
(20:49):
foam mattress.
Why is that so the the qualityand the properties of the memory
foam?
I mean, have you slept on?
Speaker 2 (21:00):
I used to have one.
Yeah, I've slept on a half andhalf, I think, so it's the
spring.
And then, yeah, exactly yeah, Ithink I used to sleep on one of
those.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Well, the material itself.
When you lie on it, youactually think it's quite firm
and you're like, well, this isgreat, but it does end up
molding sort of into your body.
So let's think about somebodynow that's got these collapsed
vertebrae, that I speak aboutthese anterior vertebrae, and
then their body's twisted up andthen you get into bed and all
the bed does is mold into whatyour configuration is.
(21:32):
So every night when you go tosleep, it's not like the next
day you'll wake up andpotentially be in danger, but
over time you're going to getmore and more and more tightly
twisted up than you would if youwere sleeping on a firm
mattress.
Because we recommend firm.
There's another type of foam atthe moment that's the best that
we can recommend called latex.
(21:52):
It's latex foam essentially.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
A lot of it can be organic and hyper hyper
allergenic, because memory foamcan get really hot and actually
it's quite toxic yeah, yeah, thetoxicity of mattresses is a
raging topic in all the sort ofhealth biohacking facebook
groups I go into, so can you saymore about that toxicity?
Speaker 3 (22:15):
I haven't actually looked into most of it, it's
only just the materials.
Um, actually I think it wassomething that tim had posted
that I read about where therewas five or six different points
that he put together, justsaying that this is the most
toxic substance in the world.
Do not sleep on it yeah, Ithink yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
They use all sorts of chemicals, formaldehyde, all
sorts of things like like a newcar smell.
A new car smell gives me aheadache.
They're using the same kind ofthings in mattresses to preserve
them, and then we're justbreathing them in for eight
hours every day, pretty much.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
And what about pillows as well?
Speaker 3 (22:51):
So that's what I was going to say.
What's interesting is memoryfoam pillows, memory foam in
shoes.
So sketches have insoles thatare memory foam inside the shoe.
Same thing, same concept, alittle different or a little
tricky maybe for people toenvision.
But if you imagine that yourbody now has these bones that
are stuck forward so youcollapse, you can notice this
(23:13):
because you've got roundedshoulders, your head's forward,
your back probably has too muchcurve in it, et cetera.
And when you look in the mirrorand you're brushing your teeth,
you'll see that you're notsymmetric.
You're like oh, thiscollarbone's a bit lower, my
shoulder's a bit higher on thisside, or I feel a bit twisted.
So when you put shoes on thatare now memory foam and these
twists and bends andcompensations I talk about
(23:35):
happen everywhere.
They happen in the cranialbones, they happen in the jaw,
they happen in the fingers, theyhappen right down into your
arches, your toes and your feet,so your whole body can be
compensated up.
Now, when you put these shoeson really soft just like the
sleeping example that I gave,where you've got a twist on one
side, the shoes they don'tstabilize your body.
So when you put the shoe on,it's a micro challenge for your
(24:01):
body to actually stabilizeitself.
So I'm exaggerating it here.
But your body will be movingaround to try and find a stable
spot all the time in the shoes.
The likelihood of you pushing abone further forward when your
body's got to look for a stableplace is higher, so shoes can
really impact us over time aswell yeah, shoes is definitely
something I want to come on to.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
But on that concept, uh, just going back to sleep, um
sleep posture, some people,people, often ask me how should
I sleep?
You know, side back front.
What do you have to say aboutthat?
Speaker 3 (24:31):
well, I mean, there's evidence, especially when I was
pregnant.
You know, sleep on your leftside, your stomach, and I think
is it around digestion as wellDigestion and circulation.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
For the left side, yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
But definitely side sleeping would be number one for
me.
Back sleeping not an issue.
It's just that your pillowheight has to change between
side sleeping and back sleepingBecause, of course, side
sleeping you're going to need alot higher than you are when you
lie on your back, because ifyou lie on your back with a high
pillow you're going to pushyour head forward all night and
(25:05):
that's not going to help stomach.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Sleeping is please please don't just stop.
Just stop doing what you'redoing.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
I always think any people whose stomachs leave just
passed out.
I don't think anyone couldactually consciously get into
that position.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
What's super interesting at work is that
again, working with people intime and correcting their
configurations and giving themthe right pillow hide and they
change their mattress.
They don't want to sleep ontheir stomachs anymore, it
doesn't feel right for them andit all changes.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Yeah, you guys do a great sit-sleep-stand workshop
where you train your clients tosleep.
And yeah, on the mattress, Ihave the abc mattress that you
can buy from their website.
It's super firm, non-toxic.
But before I could get that, uh, you and stewart had me
sleeping on the floor on acouple of mat, on yoga mats and
with rolled up towels, and so sowhy do you do that?
(25:53):
Just mean, yeah, exactly, it'slike you know.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
See, if you can do this, but I think it very much
depends on the results we get.
So if people there's always,your body's always giving you
clues, always, always, always,always.
If you know people go, I getout of my car and I can hardly
walk.
I'm like, well, your car seatclearly didn't do you any favors
, let's see what we can do foryour car seat.
Same thing with your, you know.
Your your sleeping.
(26:19):
Oh, I wake up, or five in themorning and I've got to get up
because I'm in too much pain.
I'm like, well, let's take alook at your mattress and your
pillow.
We do, and that all changes.
So putting people on the floorisn't the best experience for
them, as you know, because youcan have that pressure point of
the shoulder or the hip orwhatever on the floor.
But usually the pain that theycome in with is so much better
(26:40):
if they sleep on the floor andthey get the pillow height
moderately right and they'll sayoh, you know what?
I didn't have the best night'ssleep because I was sleeping on
the floor and was really firm,but I have to say that my back
feels so much better.
Or my shoulder, yes, actually Iwoke up and it wasn't as tight
and can we cover off the pillowheight question.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
What is?
What are we talking about there?
Speaker 3 (27:01):
so there's one thing that I want to say, which is
there isn't one pillow that fitsall, and if anybody's saying,
buy this pillow because you knowit's every, it'll work for
everyone it's, it's bullshit.
Because our bodies aredifferent like it's unbelievable
how many differentconfigurations I've seen of how
(27:21):
twisted up and shapes and sizesfrom a mechanical point of view.
So you cannot expect pillowheight to be the same with
anybody.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
What we use is a height adjustable pillow, so it
has got layers of foam and whenI'm working on someone's body
and seeing them twice a week andthey're going through
transformation, their pillowheight probably changes every
two or three weeks yeah, andit's fascinating when you do
that workshop and you see people, when they get the right sleep
(27:50):
height, their eyes go from there, you know, because you're in a
kind of bright room, you're inyour office and people have
their eyes open.
Then when they find the exactright height that I just like
can't stay open.
People just become so relaxed.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
They're just like falling asleep in a crowded
crowd of people it's, it's, it'smagic, it's andy, it's like
it's because, of course, when Iwas studying and learning all of
this, this is what I had tolearn.
You know, this is what I, what Ihad to study.
So what Rich said, where peopleare, some tiny little person
like smaller than the three ofus, is on a stack of a height of
(28:24):
pillow about this big.
So she's lying on her side buther head is almost like because
people say, oh, I should justhave a pillow that's from my
neck to my shoulder and that'show really high my pillow should
be, and it's untrue because itdepends so much on the meningeal
tension which I've spoken aboutand the mechanics.
So she had this massive pillowheight but she was so relaxed
(28:44):
and once you do reach a pointthat your pillow height is good,
because we go through all thesedifferent layers, your eyes
just close and it's really quitehard for her to even open her
eyes and you can see her breathis the biggest that she's got
and also any aches or pains thatshe's had are not there.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
I really, really want to do the exercise now.
I can't tell you how much I do,especially as I'm about to go
to bed.
Do you ever get any people whoare just kind of curious about
this stuff I mean, say, like me,I mean I don't think I've got
perfect posture but it's notcausing me any problems that I'm
(29:19):
aware of.
But I am curious about going tothe stuff and finding out more
about how better to treat mybody.
Basically, do you ever get anypeople like that coming to you?
Speaker 3 (29:27):
it's, it's on the minimum, so it's the the smaller
sort of numbers.
It is really one of my idealclients, though for myself,
because it's somebody who's notin pain but just looking to
reach their highest potential.
So we we basically with pain,posture and performance issues,
and and what is what is solovely about it is when you,
(29:50):
when you don't have pain, and weadjusting you and correcting
you, then you noticing how muchbetter your body functions, even
though you're at a pretty goodlevel already.
So things like, like Rich said,you you're reaching, you know,
personal best better, your bodyfunctions, even though you're at
a pretty good level already.
So, things like Rich said,you're reaching personal bests
with things like a 10K or yourchest press, and so it's good to
see in energy levels and evenfocus and concentration at work,
(30:11):
clarity, stuff like that,creativity.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Yeah, and going back to that idea of sort of
stabilization as well, I thinkthat's a really interesting
concept as well, the idea thatyou know, when we go into a soft
mattress or a soft shoe or evena soft couch, like we don't
actually relax.
We initially feel relaxed, butthen actually it's stressing our
body.
Can you say more about that?
Speaker 3 (30:35):
That's so interesting because when you're fixing
probably six weeks, maybe evenless, four to six weeks in, when
people's body are getting fixed, they're like I don't even I
don't feel I get pain on mycouch now and I'm like she's
like yeah, I didn't have thatbefore and I'm like your body
was so screwed up before thatwhen you got on the couch it
(30:56):
didn't make any difference.
But now that we fixed you upsitting on something bad, your
body's going.
This is not working for me atall.
So it's so true, the subtletyof the change in things like
breathing rates or evenbreathing efficiency.
You don't even know that'shappening on the couch.
But I mean, think about anairplane flight.
If you're traveling economy andyou're on an airplane flight,
(31:18):
you do.
You know, four to six hours,maybe even a long haul like
South Africa, 11 hours Nobodygets off the plane feeling great
, nobody gets off the plane, andthat's just the shape of the
actual chair.
So a tip there is to actuallyput the pillow that they give
you, which is really small andquite feeble put it under your
butt, cheeks so that your hipsare higher than your knees when
(31:40):
you're sitting.
That is that.
Is that really make a hugedifference to your spine posture
, function, physiology on theother end yeah, and you sell
those seat wedges, don't you?
Speaker 1 (31:52):
for for office chairs , for cars and everything.
So, so why is it important tohave our hips above our knees
when seated, when seated.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
It's uh, basically it's like a high heel for your
pelvis.
So a certain, a certain heelfor men and women is actually
quite beneficial for our posturebecause it pops.
It pops us up.
So we, you know, for shoes wehave these tiny little heel
chips that we put, especially inbarefoot shoes, the back of the
shoe, to create a lift Now inthe pelvis.
(32:27):
When the hips are higher thanthe knees, you tilt the pelvis
in the direction that props upthe spine from the bottom, so
you're using less effort to justsit.
And then, of course, if you'remore upright, you're using less
effort to just sit.
And then, of course, if you'remore upright, you're breathing
better because your ribs canmove and you've got more space
for your heart and lungs.
So sitting at a desk all daywith hips high and the knees is
(32:48):
one of the best things you coulddo, and obviously the position
of your, your computer, it's agood, important one as well and
then one of the best and worstkind of shoes is so,
birkenstocks, crocs, you know so.
I see children in crocs and Iyou know part of me wants to
(33:11):
stop all the parents on thestreet and just say please don't
do this to your child childabuse it's just, you know, and
it's so well marketed again, andso yeah, whatever, and there's
all these marketing gimmicks,but again, the shape of the shoe
it forces your body to look forstabilization all the time,
which then increases the chanceof you pushing a vertebra
(33:35):
forward.
So they're just learning how towalk, some of these kids, or
even run properly, so it changesthe whole biomechanics of their
bodies.
So Crocs, birkenstocks, as Isaid, sketches, anything with
memory foam soles.
A heel is actually not bad forwomen.
You know, if you're tall enough, you can have sort of a
two-inch, three-inch heel and beokay.
If you're tall, one, one and ahalf inch to someone who's me is
(33:57):
not so tall important.
And also, you know people say,well, I tried barefoot shoes but
I was in so much pain and it'slike, well, you know, if your
body is really twisted up,you're not going to do well with
spending eight hours andcommuting in your barefoot shoe.
You've got to build up to thatand also, obviously, get some.
Get some treatment first.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
It's unfortunate that you said Birkenstocks and Crocs
, because I'd say they were boththe shoes of the summer in the
UK.
I think that's what I saw most.
So any brands of barefoot shoeyou would mention, for those of
you who don't know what abarefoot shoe is, yes, it's a
minimal shoe.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
It doesn't have and should not have, but we would
like it not to have an archsupport.
Or if you actually look at yourshoe really closely, you look
at the heel part of the shoe,you'll notice that there's
almost like a trough.
So I say to people you knowBirkenstock's amazing for your
feet.
Your feet obviously feel greatin there because it's supporting
the arch.
(34:56):
It's got a little space foryour heel, it's got a space for
your toes, so your feet arefantastic.
But the impact that that has onyour structure all the way
above is not something you wantto do.
Right from your breath again,your efficiency of your breath
and then your posture, sostructurally changing you over
time.
(35:16):
So, five are barefoot.
We enjoy those shoes.
We enjoy Groundies.
Groundies is a German brand.
I'm using some Feel Grounds,which is UK-based, and there's
so many more coming out.
So every time I look at abarefoot shoe, I'm really just
going for flat, flexible andwide and no support on the arch
(35:40):
and no negative heel or troughhappening in the shoe.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Okay, great advice.
Support on the arch and nonegative heel or trough
happening in the shoe.
Okay, great advice, all right.
Well, um, yeah, we've coveredthe, the sleep, the sleeping,
the standing.
That's, that's the one thing.
Yeah, I want to ask aboutstanding standing.
How do we stand?
Should we stand?
Speaker 3 (36:03):
well, that's you know .
What I said in the beginning isthat people are like, how
should I be, what should myposture look like?
And they ask me and I go well,it's, it's not something
conscious, it should beunconscious and it should be
there.
So you know, what I do isrestore these curves.
And people then say alsosomething like well, should I
have a standing desk?
(36:24):
Now, a standing desk is great,but you'll notice that a certain
number of time into yourmeeting or whatever you're doing
, you'll start fidgeting.
So, either leaning on one legor crossing one over, or what I
do is I end up opening my legsquite wide so that I can like
leaning into.
So as soon as you noticeyourself compensating, those are
(36:44):
compensations.
Sit, just sit, just change.
It's the change between sittingand standing that your body
wants.
It's not so much, you know.
Oh my God, I sit for eight days, eight hours.
It's a problem.
I'm going to stand for eighthours.
It's not that, it's themovement that your body wants.
So we just encourage people,you know, get.
So we just encourage people,you know, get up, use the toilet
, get a drink, get a coffee, geta tea, come back, and then you
(37:05):
know, change, standing sitting.
Standing sitting but ideally Imean a mechanical, biomechanical
position of standing is thatyour feet are directly under
your hips.
Your feet are turned out atabout 10 degrees on either side.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Arms are relaxed by your side and you're looking
straight ahead.
Yeah, that's interesting.
You say that that there is noperfect posture, because I was
listening to this footballpodcast and they're always like,
oh, phil foden, he has theperfect posture, but I don't
think he does.
I think he's got slightly likelordotic spine.
Um, and then also on the topicof posture, I often get
instagram adverts for like, thiskind of like almost looks like
(37:42):
a bra, but for men and womenthat brings your shoulders back.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
What do you think about those, those kind of yeah,
do you want me to say that I'vegot one, or should I just leave
that off this episode?
Speaker 3 (37:55):
well, I mean, I always say to people what are
your goals?
You know, if your goal is to beupright for an evening because
you've got an event, you know,wear the back brace.
But if your goal is to bepain-free evening, because
you've got an event, wear theback brace.
But if your goal is to bepain-free, muscle tension-free
and be upright, then look foranother way.
I mean, if you think aboutwearing a cast on your arm for
six weeks because you broke abone, when you take that cast
(38:16):
off because you haven't movedthose muscles, you've atrophied.
So if someone's wearing a bracefor X amount of time in a day,
the muscles aren't beingactivated at all some of them
and there'll be such animbalance there as well.
So it can create such aknock-on effect of wearing those
braces.
If that's what you're lookingfor to change your posture I
don't promote those at all youtouched on flying and I'm just
(38:39):
conscious.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
in the age of digital nomads and people working from
loads of different environments,could you give kind of
practical tips for people whoare maybe sitting on four or
five different chairs a week,sleeping maybe in a couple of
beds in a week?
What are the kind of things youcan take with you?
Or practical tips like hipsabove knees?
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Yes, so hips above knees.
So for me, if I can't travelwith my wedge, um with me, which
just you know, looks like this.
I've actually got it on thisyou'll have to describe this for
the listeners rich it's like atriangular cushion.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
It's pretty tough, um , it's.
It's a wedge shape.
That's why it's called a wedge,um, and it covers your chair,
maybe half half the chair, threequarters of a chair so it
doesn't go on.
Most, most chairs.
I have them in my car.
I thought I'm sitting on oneright now, actually, uh, in my
office.
So bonus points for me bonuspoints for you.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
So if you can't do that, obviously I use you know,
if I go to a theater or if I'm,like you say, working in a space
where I know the chair isrubbish, I will roll up my scarf
or my jacket and I'll stick itunder my butt cheeks so that my
hips are higher than my knees.
Same thing in a taxi orsomething.
I'll be like no, I can't sitlike this.
(39:55):
I'll roll something up, stickit under my bum.
So that would be the one waythat I would get around a chair
that isn't so good.
And also, depending on what'sgoing on on your spine, you can
sit to the edge of the chair sothat you know if it's a terrible
, terrible chair.
I find that a lot of bar stoolsare a problem.
You know where there's no back.
So when you're sitting for along time and you have no
(40:17):
support, it's not ideal.
You know, people will say to mewhen I'm working, should I sit
on an exercise ball?
And I'm like no, absolutely not.
I mean, you can do it for aperiod of time if you want to 20
minutes or something like that,but it's not something to sit
on for eight hours.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
Why is that?
Speaker 3 (40:35):
You know you're not giving your body a chance to be
as supportive.
I mean, you're not stable, sothe whole time it's obviously
challenged, which is what youwant to do when you want to
challenge those muscles.
But I wouldn't do that foreight hours.
Your spine, if you're going tosit and focus for a while,
you'll need some support there.
So the position of your hipshigher than your knees balances
your pelvis, props up your spinewithout effort.
So your muscles are not workingas hard.
(40:57):
What else you said?
So in hotel rooms, if the bed,now you'll know if the bed is a
problem for your body becauseyou won't feel good in bed.
I mean, I always remember goingto my first night away of being
a new mom and I was like I'maway from my baby, I'm gonna
sleep so well, I'm gonna have nointerruptions.
(41:19):
And I get in this hotel roomand I'm lying in the bed and I'm
like crap, it was my.
I just started to get likegrowing pains.
My legs were sore, I didn'tknow what to do.
I kept tossing and turning, Islept on the floor, froze my ass
off and I still slept on thefloor and I didn't get any sleep
.
But yes, so beds, you will knowif the bed is not good for you.
If you can't fall asleep,you're tossing and turning and
(41:40):
you've got any sort of tensionor aches or pains, then sleep on
the floor.
Pillar height I'll use towels,so bath towels, something in the
bathroom.
And if the pillow isn't doingwhat I want it to do, and the
three things I would look at,one lying on my side is the
position of where my uppershoulder is.
So if your upper shoulder theone you're lying on, the
(42:12):
opposite one, if that's fallingforward and your hand is going
underneath your chin to prop upyour head when you sleep, the
pillow is way too low.
So you want to look for thisshoulder, the top shoulder, to
be in a neutral position.
If it's too far back whenyou're lying on your pillow and
you almost want to fall ontoyour back, the pillow is usually
too high.
So those are kind of just someguidelines for that.
And so use a towel from thebathroom and just create these
levels and just go up and downreally slowly and your body can
(42:35):
ascertain a change of differentpillow heights to the height of
a piece of a paper.
So when I say to people, youknow, go up and pillow height.
I'm not saying go home and adda whole pillow or, you know, go
down and take away a pillow.
I'm saying go home and put atea towel underneath your pillow
and see if that helps you sleepbetter.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
Awesome.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
And just so Rich doesn't have to ask the question
about breath, which he does allthe time.
Obviously, Rich bringseverything back to the breath.
You mentioned breath earlier.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
Can you talk about the role that breath has in the
body?
In the work you do so, we useit as a observational tool.
It's probably one of our mostpowerful observational tools
when we are standing, becausethat's how we do most of our
treatments.
We don't have to, but standingis best.
We're looking at the movementof the chest, the ribs, the
first rib, which is actually noone really knows this, but the
first rib is actually under yourcollarbone and it goes around
(43:31):
and actually connects to theback of your neck.
So people don't know that, butthis goes right around, it
connects to the back of yourneck.
So we're looking at theposition of the first rib, the
second rib and then all the ribsthat attach underneath that in
your chest bone, to see how eachside is moving and obviously,
how much they're moving.
The ribs move like buckethandles.
So if we don't see thatmovement being symmetrical or as
(43:52):
open, as free, as long as itcould be, there's an issue.
And every mechanical adjustmentthat we do we then compare.
So we're like, okay, that's abetter breath, oh, that's the
worst.
Okay, let me try something.
Compare.
So we're like, okay, that's abetter breath, oh, that's the
worst.
Okay, let me you know, let metry something else.
So the breath is anobservational tool and it's
probably one of the first thingsRich, I don't know if you can
vouch for this, but it'sprobably one of the first, most
(44:14):
home or hard hitting resultsthat you notice about ABC is
when you have that firstmaneuver and you have a few
things done, of how much easier,more efficient, lighter, bigger
, longer your breath is yeah,absolutely, it's a.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
It's a really interesting diagnostic tool.
You know, your body isstruggling if it can't take a
deep breath and going back toself.
Being the back of an uber orsomething you know, in a little
prius, because I find thatposition.
I get really anxious in ubersbecause my knees are so high and
well, normally like, yeah, yeah, my knees are high, so I often
(44:53):
hit, sit to the side and and dosome breath work to to calm
myself down there.
But, um, yeah, the, the breath,what you do or the you is about
, is this person breathingmaximally?
Is there something restrictingtheir breath?
And it's a really good telltalesign.
So, yeah, is there anythingelse you want to share, natalie?
Anything else you think wehaven't covered?
Speaker 3 (45:15):
I just think that it's important that people know
that you can change the shape ofyour spine.
It's fascinating how manypeople just don't think that you
can.
There's a lot of young people,particularly that are coming in,
that are kyphotic, so thatmeans they've got that bump on
the back of their neck orthey're really hunched over with
their shoulders becausetechnology has played a bigger
(45:37):
role in their lives than, say,for us, and people just don't
think that that can be changed.
And so really, it's just to saythat it's possible to transform
your spine.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
So there's hope.
Yeah, that's a great message toleave us with.
Thanks for that.
And where do we find you,Natalie?
Speaker 3 (45:59):
So SpiroHealth is in London, in Putney, on the high
street there, and we have agreat website, as I said, with
different resources on it.
We're on Instagram as well atSpiroHealth.
That's my two main channels.
Yeah, we do thesesit-sleep-standing sessions
actually, and we do themvirtually as well, so you can
join from around the world.
(46:20):
Obviously, the time differencemight be an issue, but we do
offer it online and virtuallytoo, which could be quite
beneficial for any questions,and you get to see us
demonstrating on people's bodies.
Speaker 1 (46:31):
And for people not local to London, for people in
California.
I see Jane Baxley at White OakChiropractic in Vacaville and
she's amazing, just like Natalie.
And there is a website isn'tthere, is it ABC?
Where there's like a map forpeople around the world who want
to find local practitioners soit's the abc provider map for me
(46:51):
.
Speaker 3 (46:51):
I'm affiliated to abce, which is abc europe.
I know there's abc australia inaustralia as well, abc
international, so just type itin.
There's a.
There's a great educationalwebsite called
meningialreleasecom, someningialreleasecom.
You can put that in the notes,I'll send it to you yeah, great,
(47:14):
all right.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
Thank you very much, natalie.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Yeah, thanks so much for giving me so much time.
Thanks rich, much appreciated.
Thanks so much.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
In conclusion no, we're not going to do.
In conclusion I really hate itwhen people finish a whatever a
book by saying what you shouldhave.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, as if you're not smartenough to have picked up what
you want to pick up?
Yeah, and also, I think theconclusion is different from for
everyone, isn't it someone?
Might already do all of that,and then they'll be like, oh,
that's good, I'm doingeverything right and I do abc
and my spine's perfect and Isleep perfectly, I stand
perfectly.
But I think a lot of peoplewould have taken some good
(47:59):
nuggets of wisdom from anincredibly intelligent lady.
Speaker 1 (48:02):
So thanks very much to natalie yes, and whilst we
spoke all about the positives ofabc which I mean they are
pretty much all positives Ithink it's also important
because we we are.
We are trying to make this showabout being balanced and not
just being overly salesy andhypey, and hopefully, hopefully
that episode wasn't too salesyand hypey.
(48:24):
But no treatment works foreveryone.
You know this.
This treatment really helped myback, it helped my shoulder,
but it hasn't hasn't helped myhip.
My hip, as I've mentioned, haslost labrum.
It, this treatment haslimitations.
It can't regrow labrum andcartilage, like maybe stem cells
can.
So it's possible that peoplewill try abc and they won't get
(48:45):
as phenomenal benefits as I didand they'll need something else.
But I think it's definitelyworth the try.
It's pretty minimally invasive.
It doesn't require flying tomexico and uh, having being put
under general anesthetic andhaving stem cells.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
It's certainly a lot cheaper than that, as well, I
was disappointed to hear thatbirkenstocks and Crocs are no
good for your feet, because Ifeel like they've both had a
real resurgence over the summer.
Really Well, I don't own either.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
I'm not disappointed.
I'm glad they're very ugly andthey need to go.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
Chefs around the world will be devastated by the
Crocs one yeah, big time.
No, very, very interestingstuff.
Practical tips crocs one yeah,big time.
Um, no, very, very interestingstuff.
Practical tips um.
Go find natalie on instagramand check out those videos on
abc.
They sound really good as aminimum.
Or maybe go and see her atspyro in putney big time.
Speaker 1 (49:36):
All right, thank you andy, thank you natalie, and
thank you listener you find us.
You find us find us oninstagram at the breath geek, at
andy sam and at the breathgeekcom, and on all good podcast
hosting sites.
Brilliant, well done.
Did I get the voiceover gignailed?
Speaker 2 (49:57):
it speak to you next time, bye thanks for listening
bye.
hello, oh, hello oh, it's me, hey, big breath big
sigh that was, um, that was themost unprofessional I've ever
been.
Um, when people were warming upfor that podcast but not even
warming up we started recording.
I was at a huge breath and wehad to stop recording.
I felt a bit embarrassed aboutthat.
But after that, what a crackingepisode.
(00:21):
Who's it with?
Speaker 1 (00:23):
it's with natalie from spiro health and she is an
advanced biostructuralcorrection chiropractor.
So we get into the body in someways, not not, you know, not in
the weird way, but like how tosit, how to sleep, how to stand
the injuries.
We pick up the things we mightbe doing wrong unknowingly that
(00:46):
are affecting our bodies, ifwe're creating aches and pains
and things.
So, yeah, I feel like peopleare going to learn a lot.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
I think you might have learned a lot too
absolutely, yeah, I um I didlearn a lot and I think um
jam-packed full of practicaltips, which is always a good
thing, um no fancy gizmos needed, um, and she actually said the
best chair is the ikea diningchair, which my machine is not
in the same price bracket as alot of the uh office stuff you
(01:15):
are seeing these days.
So some really interesting uhrevelations as well.
Um, and good tips for, yeah,sleeping standing.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
And well, there's a lot of hope in there, isn't
there because, um, you know, itsounds like abc can really uh
sort your body out in a way thatyou might not think is possible
yeah, absolutely that was whatit gave me because, as I said in
my story, you know, I had thissort of downward trajectory of
more and more injuries, less andless mobility, until I find
(01:44):
found abc and it really, yeah,it flipped my trajectory from a
downward spiral to an upwardsone.
So, yeah, listen up, listener,if you are someone who needs a
bit of help and hope withregards to your, your body and
your structure yeah, enjoy hey,listener, if you're enjoying the
insights and stories we shareon our pod, then don't miss out
(02:06):
on any of our episodes.
Hit the subscribe button todownload and listen to our
conversations at yourconvenience.
Natalie, welcome to the podcast.
Tell us how does ABC differfrom traditional forms of
(02:28):
chiropractic care?
Speaker 3 (02:32):
And yes, that is the million-dollar question that I
get asked most days Rich.
So ABC is an acronym, for it'squite a mouthful advanced by a
structural correction.
I studied in South Africaoriginally and I did a technique
(02:53):
of chiropractic calleddiversified.
So there's I mean, don't get mewrong, there's about 200
different types of techniques ofchiropractic.
So, and all of them work reallywell, I would say, and I was
doing really well using mytechnique when I came across ABC
, it became way more predictablefor me.
I had people in my office goingand experiencing miracles in
their body every week, which isso rewarding as a practitioner.
And what I would say istraditional chiropractic it's
(03:20):
all by hand, which is fantastic,because that's the healing
power of what we do.
It's all by hand, which isfantastic because that's the
healing power of what we do.
But in traditional chiropracticyou are changing somebody's
configuration of what'shappening in their body, which
gives them temporary relief, inmy opinion, whereas ABC is a
longer-term, more permanent,more transformational treatment,
(03:42):
because you fix the bodyliterally.
I mean that sounds like carsalesy, but you do, you fix the
body, and I've been doing it nowfor long enough to be able to
really say that with confidence.
So we work with what the bodycan't fix, so you can fix
yourself.
And specifically, if you want toget specific.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
I'd like to get specific, if that's all right,
yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Yeah.
So, andy, if you think aboutthe spine, the spine has three
curves to it, and from behind,ideally you want to be a hundred
percent straight, and it's madeup of Lego pieces called
vertebrae, basically.
And where those vertebrae sitin terms of biomechanics, and
all the curves, is reallyimportant for how it props us up
.
Because when you talk aboutposture, posture isn't something
(04:29):
and all you listeners out thereare going posture and everyone
sits up straight.
Or as soon as I say achiropractor, they're like oh,
you do chiropractic andeverybody sits up really
straight.
It's hilarious.
You should not be thinkingabout your posture, it should
just be there.
It should be something thatwhen you stand up, you're
standing upright, you'rebreathing, while your ribs are
moving, while your head's in agood position.
(04:50):
It's not a conscious thing.
So that's one thing, because alot of people think, oh, I can
do chin tucks, I can hang offthe end of my bed to get the
arch back into my neck, I can dothese millions of exercises and
stretches and actuallypointless.
So back to structure these Legopieces or these vertebrae.
They have millions or hundredsof muscles around them to
(05:10):
stabilize them.
We don't have muscles attachedin the spine that can pull one
vertebra backward on another.
That's the only time, as ahuman being, we struggle to
correct ourselves, becauseotherwise we're designed to
correct ourselves.
That's one of the biggestpremises of ABC.
So when these bones go forwardand it doesn't have to be from
(05:31):
major car accidents or rugbytackles or big falls or traumas,
it can be from the things thatwe do every single day, like
sitting in a certain position,working as we are now, like
having this podcast, or sleepingin bed.
Where's your head?
Where's your pillow height?
What's your mattress doing?
What shoes are you wearing?
These have an impact on theselittle Lego pieces or vertebrae.
So when bones go forward, ieyour body looks more collapsed
(05:55):
or more hunched over, we don'thave muscles to pull that back.
So once you've collapsed avertebra, that's it for us.
Now, instead of us falling over,the body's super clever and it
twists up to compensate for that.
So we don't fall over, we justtwist up.
But now these little twistshappen from a really young age
(06:16):
and change the biomechanics ofthe body.
But they don't only change thebiomechanics.
They'll change how the bloodflows.
They'll change how the braincommunicates with the nerves.
They'll change how the bloodflows.
They'll change how the braincommunicates with the nerves.
They'll change how hormones aredistributed around the body.
So there's a whole lot ofdifferent things that can affect
, but basically it's thesecompensations or twists that
create a pattern and then whenyou use a body that's twisted up
(06:39):
, you start wearing yourself out.
So there's a lot of evidence ofus reversing things like
arthritis, reversing knee issues.
There's x-rays pre and post ofsomebody having ABC.
You know, one or two or threeyears later and you're looking
at a completely different spine,completely different knees,
completely different hips.
It's fascinating.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Yeah, it is fascinating and I am a big
advocate for ABC.
My story, I think, is probablyquite a typical one in that I
was doing a lot of CrossFit atthe time.
Well, prior to that, I wasdoing a lot of football, soccer,
and I'd stopped playing soccerbecause I had injuries.
And then I was doing CrossFitand I could do that for a while,
(07:20):
but I just kept on picking upmore and more injuries for a
while.
But I would just, I just kepton picking up more and more
injuries shoulder injury, thenelbow injury, chronic mid-back
pain and then hip pain and thenachilles pain.
Uh, achilles and it, my, my, mybody was just like slowly
declining and this was aroundsort of age age 28, 29, so still
a young, a young person.
(07:41):
I shouldn't have been goingthrough those things.
And I had tried regularchiropractic and you know those
chiropractors were were amazingpeople and super smart, but it
wasn't working for me.
You know, I'd get a bit oftemporary relief and then the
pain would just come back in adifferent spot and it was just
like managing injuries.
Until I went to the biohackersmeetup and saw Natalie and her
(08:03):
former colleague Stuart giving apresentation and I thought, ah,
this might be what I needed,like I couldn't go for the quick
fix, I couldn't just go allright, I want to.
You know, I want to one session, I want to be fixed.
I've realized I had to go on along, multi-year journey and
that's when I started at SpiraHealth in Putney and really had
(08:24):
to change a lot of the things Idid in my life.
But over time I did get relief.
I don't have those sameinjuries.
I'm still doing CrossFit at 37,still PRing my snatch, age 37.
So I'm, yeah, definitely a bigadvocate.
But, yeah, what other kinds ofstories do you have of clients
changing in ways such as I did?
Speaker 3 (08:48):
I mean, it's not only sort of this age group, it's
also newborn, newborn babies,unbelievable.
I mean, I do the smallestamount of work not much work
with them, because they'reobviously super young and their
bodies haven't gone through muchof this what I've spoken about.
They're not even sittingupright.
So bones going forward andtwisting up probably haven't
(09:09):
even happened yet.
But there's another system thatwe deal with which is called
the meningeal system.
For those listeners, anyonethat's not familiar with that,
meningitis is an inflammation ofthe meninges and the meninges
is, like a think of it, like askin that covers the brain and
spinal cord.
It's got three layers to itwhich are usually really loose,
really really loose.
But when your body goes throughtwists and bends and shifts it
(09:34):
gets tightened up so it startsto affect the nervous system
directly.
So ABC deals with those.
So we do structural care but wealso do a very deep form of
stretching on this meningealtension.
So yes, from babies withsleeping issues, scoliosis,
people with, and they get toldby orthopedics nothing can be
(09:55):
done other than surgery.
And it's not true.
I've seen it with my own eyes.
I've got results in my ownoffice of a change in scoliosis.
It takes time.
Scoliosis is a doublecompensation, so it's a twist on
a twist.
So it is complicated and itdoes take a long time, but it's
100% possible to help with that.
(10:16):
I mean I've been in tears withgood friends of mine because
they haven't moved a shoulderfor I don't know five years and
then suddenly one appointmentnot saying one appointment and
it's fixed.
I'm just saying, along the lineof the journey of fixing
someone in a number of months oryears, suddenly the shoulder
just unlocks and they can justmove their shoulder and then
it's like it's a big moment.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Wow.
So can you talk a bit moreabout the patient journey and
what you're actually doing,because it sounds like when rich
came to it, he realized thatit's maybe going to take longer,
but obviously, as you said, theresults last longer, in many
cases forever.
So can you talk a little bitabout the patient journey and
what you're actually doing?
Speaker 3 (10:58):
so typically you obviously assess the client,
take a good medical history,orthopedic, neurological tests
etc.
Take some post, take somepostural pictures, x-rays if
needed, et cetera, and then onceyou've looked at them and go,
okay, listen, I can help you.
And there's quite a cleardefinition of what we can and
can't help with ABC.
The three things that we do notwork with is malignancy,
(11:19):
fracture and diabeticcomplications.
Those three things we won'twork with.
But everything else, everythingelse post-surgery, lots of
neurological conditions thatpeople wouldn't touch with a
barge pole if they werechiropractors.
We are, we're there.
So people come in and we assessthem.
We usually start with athree-month program, so it's
(11:41):
called stabilization.
We are seeing them twice a week.
I say this because just byresearch that we do to transform
the body using this technique,the quickest way to see the
results is to come in two perweek.
Three per week doesn't reallyaccelerate it too much.
One per week is too smallbecause people tend to mess
themselves up in inverted commaswith how they sit, sleep,
(12:03):
because people tend to messthemselves up in inverted commas
with how they sit, sleep andstand, which I can get into a
bit later on some tips on thosethings, but it's hard to fix a
body and transform someone'sspine if they keep going back
into patterns and habits.
Much like any kind of therapy,you're going to have Go back
into old patterns and it slowsyou down.
So typically it looks like that.
To start with, andy, pain relief.
(12:23):
This is the frustrating partfor a practitioner.
I've had people with discinjuries crawl into my office
they can't even walk through thedoor literally crawling through
my office into the treatmentroom.
I do one session and they walkout Frustratingly in their head
they're like, wow, I'm almostthere.
(12:45):
I mean, I couldn't even walkwhen I went into this and it's a
miracle.
It does seem like a miracle.
The healing and complete healingof the tissue and inflammation
and et cetera hasn't happened.
But there's been so much neuraltension released from the
stretches we do and thebiomechanics that we fix that
the whole body just workscompletely differently very
quickly.
Mechanics that we fix that thewhole body just works completely
(13:07):
differently very quickly.
But the challenge is educatingsomeone in the fact that your
body will revert back to oldpatterns very quickly.
This is why the program isthree months and I see you twice
a week.
So, frustratingly, we can getreally good results really
quickly.
People breathe better.
Clarity's there, energy,energy's up.
You know pain is 70, 80 goneand yet you know the education
(13:29):
is listen.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
This is an investment and this is going to take some
time yeah, I think one of thethings that I found fascinating
was how the spine is a rootcause for a lot of people's
injuries.
You Someone might have a kneeinjury and they go and get loads
of physical therapy and amassage around the quad and the
calf but nothing helps it.
(13:50):
And then you fix their spineand their knee pain goes away.
You see a lot of that.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
I see so much of it and once I did ABC for myself as
in, learned about it.
Abc for myself as in, learnedabout it.
You know, cognitively I waslike makes so much sense.
It makes so much sense as towhat the actual cause of that
biomechanical problem in theknee is.
So when someone comes in with a, you know and they go oh, I've
(14:20):
had surgery, I've got cartilageissues, I've torn ACLs without
even having trauma, just runninga marathon or something, and I
don't touch the knee.
I mean, I do very minimal workon the limb at all and the knee
straightens, the strengthreturns, they can walk better,
they can sit better, they canexercise and I haven't even done
any work on the knee.
So, yes, the spine is the key.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Hmm, and then there's that idea that the spine can
correct itself in all directionsapart from backwards.
Is that just like a hypothesis?
Is there evidence for that?
How did that come into being,that concept?
Speaker 3 (14:56):
Yeah, that is a good question.
I mean I'm probably not in aposition now to give you, but I
could research that for you andgive you some factual as to how
they really picked that up,Because it was essentially three
guys, three main guys in the1970s.
Jc Jatkiewicz was one of themain guys and just an absolute
(15:19):
genius when it comes tobiomechanics of the body.
It can look at you from 20meters away and tell you what's
going on in your body.
So, yeah, I'll find out aboutthat and give you some more on
that topic.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Can we move on to some of the things that are bad
for our posture, or maybe someof the activities that most
damage our posture, or some ofthe kind of shoes we're wearing
way we're sleeping, the thingsyou mentioned earlier.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Yeah.
So just to keep it super simple, the two things that you don't
want to do with your spine ishyperflex it.
So there's a natural, normalamount of flexion of the neck or
the mid back or the lower back,and then there's a natural, a
normal extension of the neck,extension of the thorax and
extension of the lumbar spine,of the thorax and extension of
the lumbar spine.
And if you stay within thoserealms you'll be fine, as in.
(16:07):
I'm specifically talking aboutexercises.
So no hyperflexion, nohyperextension, just as a basic
rule.
So when you're doing things likeweights, you just want to keep
your body as neutral as possible.
I mean, I remember when I wasworking with personal trainers
and when you're doing back orthink that they'll specifically
ask you to arch your back, andwhen you're doing back or think
that they'll specifically askyou to arch your back, like when
you're doing a pull down, toreally activate those muscles,
(16:28):
and small things like that canreally not create an injury
there and then.
But you do that on a dailybasis, three, four, five times a
week, and the likelihood of youpushing one of those bones
forward or putting it intoextension is really high, and
then the likelihood of your bodytwisting up is high, and then,
of course, your injuries comeand little niggles come thick
(16:48):
and fast eventually.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Yeah, I was going to say there's this idea that
everyone should be doing yoga,but you have a lot of recovering
yoga instructors in yourpractice, don't you?
Speaker 3 (17:02):
So what was super interesting about that is
because I actually really enjoyyoga, I knew it wasn't good for
my body personally, and so whatwe did is we got together with
about 20 yogis, reallyexperienced yogis.
Just had some conversationswith them and a lot of them were
saying, I mean, they've beendoing some of them yoga for 20
plus years and they were sayingit's interesting how their
(17:25):
bodies are no longer able to dothe poses as they've got further
along in their careers.
And I'm like, wow, I mean you'dthink that you'd keep that
what's the word elasticity?
And keep that stretching of themuscles because you're doing it
so often.
So it would just be, theflexibility would be there, but
slowly but surely they werelosing it.
Their flexibility would bethere, but slowly but surely
(17:47):
they were losing it.
Um, so we worked with them andwe came up with a yoga flow, um,
spine friendly yoga flow Iactually have it on my, my
website which isn't any hyperextension or hyper flexion, but
it does involve twisting,because you can do things that
twist, you can latch, reflex,you know you can do a safe
amount of flexion and extension.
I enjoy the breath work, thestress management of yoga, so
that's a pretty safe way to doyoga.
(18:08):
There is ways that you canleave out certain poses.
So if you are a yoga fanatic,if you're in your session with
yoga, I would just look atreducing the amount of flexion
and extension that you do,forcing your body and also in
certain poses that you're doingone side versus the other.
Sometimes it can get quitecompetitive and you with
yourself even, and you want topush that stretch.
(18:29):
I wouldn't push your body intoa stretch because when you are
stuck in one of those twists orthose configurations I speak
about, if you are going tostretch out what the body is
actually doing to stabilize you,you could really destabilize
yourself and cause some bigproblems yeah, I think yoga is
like the idea of having someflexibility is good.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Taken to the extreme becomes unhelpful.
The same with like vegetablesare good for you, so let's only
eat vegetables and you get.
You know all the complicationsthat come with with veganism.
And the same with, yeah,probably strength training or
running marathon runners whojust have, you know, emaciated
and things like that.
Like we do, we do need balanceand it's sad to see that when
(19:11):
people just think they're doingsomething good for themselves,
like yoga, and they're actuallyharming themselves when they
take it to the extreme.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Two things in my office.
The main injuries come well,actually three.
Let me talk about three.
One, yoga.
So people post yoga.
Oh, I've been doing yoga forsix weeks and I picked up this
or that.
Two is the deadlift in the gym.
So the deadlift in the gym is agreat exercise.
I mean, let's face it, itreally activates your posterior
(19:39):
chain and it's wonderful.
But the likelihood of youpushing or dragging a vertebra
forward, doing that is very high.
So I usually tell my clients tostay away from deadlifts if
they can.
And what's the third thing?
Speaker 1 (19:58):
How do you feel about hex bar dead deadlifts?
I've heard they are better yeah, look there's.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
There's some, some different techniques.
I was going to say that thetechnique is important, but also
what's worth saying is itdepends on the body.
So I might do that deadlift andmy body probably handles it
quite well, but somebody elsewho's just twisted or just a
little weak in that certain spot, it'll create an issue over
time you were going to talkabout sleeping, natalie, and I
(20:26):
was looking forward to that yes,so that was actually the third.
The third thing that I see inthe office that creates the most
injuries or the people come inwith is sleeping on a memory
foam mattress memory foam andit's a big one.
It's a big one because mostpeople have invested a lot of
money in it and it's so wellmarked that you think you're
investing in your health.
But actually I cannot fix abody that sleeps on a memory
(20:49):
foam mattress.
Why is that so the the qualityand the properties of the memory
foam?
I mean, have you slept on?
Speaker 2 (21:00):
I used to have one.
Yeah, I've slept on a half andhalf, I think, so it's the
spring.
And then, yeah, exactly yeah, Ithink I used to sleep on one of
those.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Well, the material itself.
When you lie on it, youactually think it's quite firm
and you're like, well, this isgreat, but it does end up
molding sort of into your body.
So let's think about somebodynow that's got these collapsed
vertebrae, that I speak aboutthese anterior vertebrae, and
then their body's twisted up andthen you get into bed and all
the bed does is mold into whatyour configuration is.
(21:32):
So every night when you go tosleep, it's not like the next
day you'll wake up andpotentially be in danger, but
over time you're going to getmore and more and more tightly
twisted up than you would if youwere sleeping on a firm
mattress.
Because we recommend firm.
There's another type of foam atthe moment that's the best that
we can recommend called latex.
(21:52):
It's latex foam essentially.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
A lot of it can be organic and hyper hyper
allergenic, because memory foamcan get really hot and actually
it's quite toxic yeah, yeah, thetoxicity of mattresses is a
raging topic in all the sort ofhealth biohacking facebook
groups I go into, so can you saymore about that toxicity?
Speaker 3 (22:15):
I haven't actually looked into most of it, it's
only just the materials.
Um, actually I think it wassomething that tim had posted
that I read about where therewas five or six different points
that he put together, justsaying that this is the most
toxic substance in the world.
Do not sleep on it yeah, Ithink yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
They use all sorts of chemicals, formaldehyde, all
sorts of things like like a newcar smell.
A new car smell gives me aheadache.
They're using the same kind ofthings in mattresses to preserve
them, and then we're justbreathing them in for eight
hours every day, pretty much.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
And what about pillows as well?
Speaker 3 (22:51):
So that's what I was going to say.
What's interesting is memoryfoam pillows, memory foam in
shoes.
So sketches have insoles thatare memory foam inside the shoe.
Same thing, same concept, alittle different or a little
tricky maybe for people toenvision.
But if you imagine that yourbody now has these bones that
are stuck forward so youcollapse, you can notice this
(23:13):
because you've got roundedshoulders, your head's forward,
your back probably has too muchcurve in it, et cetera.
And when you look in the mirrorand you're brushing your teeth,
you'll see that you're notsymmetric.
You're like oh, thiscollarbone's a bit lower, my
shoulder's a bit higher on thisside, or I feel a bit twisted.
So when you put shoes on thatare now memory foam and these
twists and bends andcompensations I talk about
(23:35):
happen everywhere.
They happen in the cranialbones, they happen in the jaw,
they happen in the fingers, theyhappen right down into your
arches, your toes and your feet,so your whole body can be
compensated up.
Now, when you put these shoeson really soft just like the
sleeping example that I gave,where you've got a twist on one
side, the shoes they don'tstabilize your body.
So when you put the shoe on,it's a micro challenge for your
(24:01):
body to actually stabilizeitself.
So I'm exaggerating it here.
But your body will be movingaround to try and find a stable
spot all the time in the shoes.
The likelihood of you pushing abone further forward when your
body's got to look for a stableplace is higher, so shoes can
really impact us over time aswell yeah, shoes is definitely
something I want to come on to.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
But on that concept, uh, just going back to sleep, um
sleep posture, some people,people, often ask me how should
I sleep?
You know, side back front.
What do you have to say aboutthat?
Speaker 3 (24:31):
well, I mean, there's evidence, especially when I was
pregnant.
You know, sleep on your leftside, your stomach, and I think
is it around digestion as wellDigestion and circulation.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
For the left side, yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
But definitely side sleeping would be number one for
me.
Back sleeping not an issue.
It's just that your pillowheight has to change between
side sleeping and back sleepingBecause, of course, side
sleeping you're going to need alot higher than you are when you
lie on your back, because ifyou lie on your back with a high
pillow you're going to pushyour head forward all night and
(25:05):
that's not going to help stomach.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Sleeping is please please don't just stop.
Just stop doing what you'redoing.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
I always think any people whose stomachs leave just
passed out.
I don't think anyone couldactually consciously get into
that position.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
What's super interesting at work is that
again, working with people intime and correcting their
configurations and giving themthe right pillow hide and they
change their mattress.
They don't want to sleep ontheir stomachs anymore, it
doesn't feel right for them andit all changes.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Yeah, you guys do a great sit-sleep-stand workshop
where you train your clients tosleep.
And yeah, on the mattress, Ihave the abc mattress that you
can buy from their website.
It's super firm, non-toxic.
But before I could get that, uh, you and stewart had me
sleeping on the floor on acouple of mat, on yoga mats and
with rolled up towels, and so sowhy do you do that?
(25:53):
Just mean, yeah, exactly, it'slike you know.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
See, if you can do this, but I think it very much
depends on the results we get.
So if people there's always,your body's always giving you
clues, always, always, always,always.
If you know people go, I getout of my car and I can hardly
walk.
I'm like, well, your car seatclearly didn't do you any favors
, let's see what we can do foryour car seat.
Same thing with your, you know.
Your your sleeping.
(26:19):
Oh, I wake up, or five in themorning and I've got to get up
because I'm in too much pain.
I'm like, well, let's take alook at your mattress and your
pillow.
We do, and that all changes.
So putting people on the floorisn't the best experience for
them, as you know, because youcan have that pressure point of
the shoulder or the hip orwhatever on the floor.
But usually the pain that theycome in with is so much better
(26:40):
if they sleep on the floor andthey get the pillow height
moderately right and they'll sayoh, you know what?
I didn't have the best night'ssleep because I was sleeping on
the floor and was really firm,but I have to say that my back
feels so much better.
Or my shoulder, yes, actually Iwoke up and it wasn't as tight
and can we cover off the pillowheight question.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
What is?
What are we talking about there?
Speaker 3 (27:01):
so there's one thing that I want to say, which is
there isn't one pillow that fitsall, and if anybody's saying,
buy this pillow because you knowit's every, it'll work for
everyone it's, it's bullshit.
Because our bodies aredifferent like it's unbelievable
how many differentconfigurations I've seen of how
(27:21):
twisted up and shapes and sizesfrom a mechanical point of view.
So you cannot expect pillowheight to be the same with
anybody.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
What we use is a height adjustable pillow, so it
has got layers of foam and whenI'm working on someone's body
and seeing them twice a week andthey're going through
transformation, their pillowheight probably changes every
two or three weeks yeah, andit's fascinating when you do
that workshop and you see people, when they get the right sleep
(27:50):
height, their eyes go from there, you know, because you're in a
kind of bright room, you're inyour office and people have
their eyes open.
Then when they find the exactright height that I just like
can't stay open.
People just become so relaxed.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
They're just like falling asleep in a crowded
crowd of people it's, it's, it'smagic, it's andy, it's like
it's because, of course, when Iwas studying and learning all of
this, this is what I had tolearn.
You know, this is what I, what Ihad to study.
So what Rich said, where peopleare, some tiny little person
like smaller than the three ofus, is on a stack of a height of
(28:24):
pillow about this big.
So she's lying on her side buther head is almost like because
people say, oh, I should justhave a pillow that's from my
neck to my shoulder and that'show really high my pillow should
be, and it's untrue because itdepends so much on the meningeal
tension which I've spoken aboutand the mechanics.
So she had this massive pillowheight but she was so relaxed
(28:44):
and once you do reach a pointthat your pillow height is good,
because we go through all thesedifferent layers, your eyes
just close and it's really quitehard for her to even open her
eyes and you can see her breathis the biggest that she's got
and also any aches or pains thatshe's had are not there.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
I really, really want to do the exercise now.
I can't tell you how much I do,especially as I'm about to go
to bed.
Do you ever get any people whoare just kind of curious about
this stuff I mean, say, like me,I mean I don't think I've got
perfect posture but it's notcausing me any problems that I'm
(29:19):
aware of.
But I am curious about going tothe stuff and finding out more
about how better to treat mybody.
Basically, do you ever get anypeople like that coming to you?
Speaker 3 (29:27):
it's, it's on the minimum, so it's the the smaller
sort of numbers.
It is really one of my idealclients, though for myself,
because it's somebody who's notin pain but just looking to
reach their highest potential.
So we we basically with pain,posture and performance issues,
and and what is what is solovely about it is when you,
(29:50):
when you don't have pain, and weadjusting you and correcting
you, then you noticing how muchbetter your body functions, even
though you're at a pretty goodlevel already.
So things like, like Rich said,you you're reaching, you know,
personal best better, your bodyfunctions, even though you're at
a pretty good level already.
So, things like Rich said,you're reaching personal bests
with things like a 10K or yourchest press, and so it's good to
see in energy levels and evenfocus and concentration at work,
(30:11):
clarity, stuff like that,creativity.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Yeah, and going back to that idea of sort of
stabilization as well, I thinkthat's a really interesting
concept as well, the idea thatyou know, when we go into a soft
mattress or a soft shoe or evena soft couch, like we don't
actually relax.
We initially feel relaxed, butthen actually it's stressing our
body.
Can you say more about that?
Speaker 3 (30:35):
That's so interesting because when you're fixing
probably six weeks, maybe evenless, four to six weeks in, when
people's body are getting fixed, they're like I don't even I
don't feel I get pain on mycouch now and I'm like she's
like yeah, I didn't have thatbefore and I'm like your body
was so screwed up before thatwhen you got on the couch it
(30:56):
didn't make any difference.
But now that we fixed you upsitting on something bad, your
body's going.
This is not working for me atall.
So it's so true, the subtletyof the change in things like
breathing rates or evenbreathing efficiency.
You don't even know that'shappening on the couch.
But I mean, think about anairplane flight.
If you're traveling economy andyou're on an airplane flight,
(31:18):
you do.
You know, four to six hours,maybe even a long haul like
South Africa, 11 hours Nobodygets off the plane feeling great
, nobody gets off the plane, andthat's just the shape of the
actual chair.
So a tip there is to actuallyput the pillow that they give
you, which is really small andquite feeble put it under your
butt, cheeks so that your hipsare higher than your knees when
(31:40):
you're sitting.
That is that.
Is that really make a hugedifference to your spine posture
, function, physiology on theother end yeah, and you sell
those seat wedges, don't you?
Speaker 1 (31:52):
for for office chairs , for cars and everything.
So, so why is it important tohave our hips above our knees
when seated, when seated.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
It's uh, basically it's like a high heel for your
pelvis.
So a certain, a certain heelfor men and women is actually
quite beneficial for our posturebecause it pops.
It pops us up.
So we, you know, for shoes wehave these tiny little heel
chips that we put, especially inbarefoot shoes, the back of the
shoe, to create a lift Now inthe pelvis.
(32:27):
When the hips are higher thanthe knees, you tilt the pelvis
in the direction that props upthe spine from the bottom, so
you're using less effort to justsit.
And then, of course, if you'remore upright, you're using less
effort to just sit.
And then, of course, if you'remore upright, you're breathing
better because your ribs canmove and you've got more space
for your heart and lungs.
So sitting at a desk all daywith hips high and the knees is
(32:48):
one of the best things you coulddo, and obviously the position
of your, your computer, it's agood, important one as well and
then one of the best and worstkind of shoes is so,
birkenstocks, crocs, you know so.
I see children in crocs and Iyou know part of me wants to
(33:11):
stop all the parents on thestreet and just say please don't
do this to your child childabuse it's just, you know, and
it's so well marketed again, andso yeah, whatever, and there's
all these marketing gimmicks,but again, the shape of the shoe
it forces your body to look forstabilization all the time,
which then increases the chanceof you pushing a vertebra
(33:35):
forward.
So they're just learning how towalk, some of these kids, or
even run properly, so it changesthe whole biomechanics of their
bodies.
So Crocs, birkenstocks, as Isaid, sketches, anything with
memory foam soles.
A heel is actually not bad forwomen.
You know, if you're tall enough, you can have sort of a
two-inch, three-inch heel and beokay.
If you're tall, one, one and ahalf inch to someone who's me is
(33:57):
not so tall important.
And also, you know people say,well, I tried barefoot shoes but
I was in so much pain and it'slike, well, you know, if your
body is really twisted up,you're not going to do well with
spending eight hours andcommuting in your barefoot shoe.
You've got to build up to thatand also, obviously, get some.
Get some treatment first.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
It's unfortunate that you said Birkenstocks and Crocs
, because I'd say they were boththe shoes of the summer in the
UK.
I think that's what I saw most.
So any brands of barefoot shoeyou would mention, for those of
you who don't know what abarefoot shoe is, yes, it's a
minimal shoe.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
It doesn't have and should not have, but we would
like it not to have an archsupport.
Or if you actually look at yourshoe really closely, you look
at the heel part of the shoe,you'll notice that there's
almost like a trough.
So I say to people you knowBirkenstock's amazing for your
feet.
Your feet obviously feel greatin there because it's supporting
the arch.
(34:56):
It's got a little space foryour heel, it's got a space for
your toes, so your feet arefantastic.
But the impact that that has onyour structure all the way
above is not something you wantto do.
Right from your breath again,your efficiency of your breath
and then your posture, sostructurally changing you over
time.
(35:16):
So, five are barefoot.
We enjoy those shoes.
We enjoy Groundies.
Groundies is a German brand.
I'm using some Feel Grounds,which is UK-based, and there's
so many more coming out.
So every time I look at abarefoot shoe, I'm really just
going for flat, flexible andwide and no support on the arch
(35:40):
and no negative heel or troughhappening in the shoe.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Okay, great advice.
Support on the arch and nonegative heel or trough
happening in the shoe.
Okay, great advice, all right.
Well, um, yeah, we've coveredthe, the sleep, the sleeping,
the standing.
That's, that's the one thing.
Yeah, I want to ask aboutstanding standing.
How do we stand?
Should we stand?
Speaker 3 (36:03):
well, that's you know .
What I said in the beginning isthat people are like, how
should I be, what should myposture look like?
And they ask me and I go well,it's, it's not something
conscious, it should beunconscious and it should be
there.
So you know, what I do isrestore these curves.
And people then say alsosomething like well, should I
have a standing desk?
(36:24):
Now, a standing desk is great,but you'll notice that a certain
number of time into yourmeeting or whatever you're doing
, you'll start fidgeting.
So, either leaning on one legor crossing one over, or what I
do is I end up opening my legsquite wide so that I can like
leaning into.
So as soon as you noticeyourself compensating, those are
(36:44):
compensations.
Sit, just sit, just change.
It's the change between sittingand standing that your body
wants.
It's not so much, you know.
Oh my God, I sit for eight days, eight hours.
It's a problem.
I'm going to stand for eighthours.
It's not that, it's themovement that your body wants.
So we just encourage people,you know, get.
So we just encourage people,you know, get up, use the toilet
, get a drink, get a coffee, geta tea, come back, and then you
(37:05):
know, change, standing sitting.
Standing sitting but ideally Imean a mechanical, biomechanical
position of standing is thatyour feet are directly under
your hips.
Your feet are turned out atabout 10 degrees on either side.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Arms are relaxed by your side and you're looking
straight ahead.
Yeah, that's interesting.
You say that that there is noperfect posture, because I was
listening to this footballpodcast and they're always like,
oh, phil foden, he has theperfect posture, but I don't
think he does.
I think he's got slightly likelordotic spine.
Um, and then also on the topicof posture, I often get
instagram adverts for like, thiskind of like almost looks like
(37:42):
a bra, but for men and womenthat brings your shoulders back.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
What do you think about those, those kind of yeah,
do you want me to say that I'vegot one, or should I just leave
that off this episode?
Speaker 3 (37:55):
well, I mean, I always say to people what are
your goals?
You know, if your goal is to beupright for an evening because
you've got an event, you know,wear the back brace.
But if your goal is to bepain-free evening, because
you've got an event, wear theback brace.
But if your goal is to bepain-free, muscle tension-free
and be upright, then look foranother way.
I mean, if you think aboutwearing a cast on your arm for
six weeks because you broke abone, when you take that cast
(38:16):
off because you haven't movedthose muscles, you've atrophied.
So if someone's wearing a bracefor X amount of time in a day,
the muscles aren't beingactivated at all some of them
and there'll be such animbalance there as well.
So it can create such aknock-on effect of wearing those
braces.
If that's what you're lookingfor to change your posture I
don't promote those at all youtouched on flying and I'm just
(38:39):
conscious.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
in the age of digital nomads and people working from
loads of different environments,could you give kind of
practical tips for people whoare maybe sitting on four or
five different chairs a week,sleeping maybe in a couple of
beds in a week?
What are the kind of things youcan take with you?
Or practical tips like hipsabove knees?
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Yes, so hips above knees.
So for me, if I can't travelwith my wedge, um with me, which
just you know, looks like this.
I've actually got it on thisyou'll have to describe this for
the listeners rich it's like atriangular cushion.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
It's pretty tough, um , it's.
It's a wedge shape.
That's why it's called a wedge,um, and it covers your chair,
maybe half half the chair, threequarters of a chair so it
doesn't go on.
Most, most chairs.
I have them in my car.
I thought I'm sitting on oneright now, actually, uh, in my
office.
So bonus points for me bonuspoints for you.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
So if you can't do that, obviously I use you know,
if I go to a theater or if I'm,like you say, working in a space
where I know the chair isrubbish, I will roll up my scarf
or my jacket and I'll stick itunder my butt cheeks so that my
hips are higher than my knees.
Same thing in a taxi orsomething.
I'll be like no, I can't sitlike this.
(39:55):
I'll roll something up, stickit under my bum.
So that would be the one waythat I would get around a chair
that isn't so good.
And also, depending on what'sgoing on on your spine, you can
sit to the edge of the chair sothat you know if it's a terrible
, terrible chair.
I find that a lot of bar stoolsare a problem.
You know where there's no back.
So when you're sitting for along time and you have no
(40:17):
support, it's not ideal.
You know, people will say to mewhen I'm working, should I sit
on an exercise ball?
And I'm like no, absolutely not.
I mean, you can do it for aperiod of time if you want to 20
minutes or something like that,but it's not something to sit
on for eight hours.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
Why is that?
Speaker 3 (40:35):
You know you're not giving your body a chance to be
as supportive.
I mean, you're not stable, sothe whole time it's obviously
challenged, which is what youwant to do when you want to
challenge those muscles.
But I wouldn't do that foreight hours.
Your spine, if you're going tosit and focus for a while,
you'll need some support there.
So the position of your hipshigher than your knees balances
your pelvis, props up your spinewithout effort.
So your muscles are not workingas hard.
(40:57):
What else you said?
So in hotel rooms, if the bed,now you'll know if the bed is a
problem for your body becauseyou won't feel good in bed.
I mean, I always remember goingto my first night away of being
a new mom and I was like I'maway from my baby, I'm gonna
sleep so well, I'm gonna have nointerruptions.
(41:19):
And I get in this hotel roomand I'm lying in the bed and I'm
like crap, it was my.
I just started to get likegrowing pains.
My legs were sore, I didn'tknow what to do.
I kept tossing and turning, Islept on the floor, froze my ass
off and I still slept on thefloor and I didn't get any sleep
.
But yes, so beds, you will knowif the bed is not good for you.
If you can't fall asleep,you're tossing and turning and
(41:40):
you've got any sort of tensionor aches or pains, then sleep on
the floor.
Pillar height I'll use towels,so bath towels, something in the
bathroom.
And if the pillow isn't doingwhat I want it to do, and the
three things I would look at,one lying on my side is the
position of where my uppershoulder is.
So if your upper shoulder theone you're lying on, the
(42:12):
opposite one, if that's fallingforward and your hand is going
underneath your chin to prop upyour head when you sleep, the
pillow is way too low.
So you want to look for thisshoulder, the top shoulder, to
be in a neutral position.
If it's too far back whenyou're lying on your pillow and
you almost want to fall ontoyour back, the pillow is usually
too high.
So those are kind of just someguidelines for that.
And so use a towel from thebathroom and just create these
levels and just go up and downreally slowly and your body can
(42:35):
ascertain a change of differentpillow heights to the height of
a piece of a paper.
So when I say to people, youknow, go up and pillow height.
I'm not saying go home and adda whole pillow or, you know, go
down and take away a pillow.
I'm saying go home and put atea towel underneath your pillow
and see if that helps you sleepbetter.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
Awesome.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
And just so Rich doesn't have to ask the question
about breath, which he does allthe time.
Obviously, Rich bringseverything back to the breath.
You mentioned breath earlier.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
Can you talk about the role that breath has in the
body?
In the work you do so, we useit as a observational tool.
It's probably one of our mostpowerful observational tools
when we are standing, becausethat's how we do most of our
treatments.
We don't have to, but standingis best.
We're looking at the movementof the chest, the ribs, the
first rib, which is actually noone really knows this, but the
first rib is actually under yourcollarbone and it goes around
(43:31):
and actually connects to theback of your neck.
So people don't know that, butthis goes right around, it
connects to the back of yourneck.
So we're looking at theposition of the first rib, the
second rib and then all the ribsthat attach underneath that in
your chest bone, to see how eachside is moving and obviously,
how much they're moving.
The ribs move like buckethandles.
So if we don't see thatmovement being symmetrical or as
(43:52):
open, as free, as long as itcould be, there's an issue.
And every mechanical adjustmentthat we do we then compare.
So we're like, okay, that's abetter breath, oh, that's the
worst.
Okay, let me try something.
Compare.
So we're like, okay, that's abetter breath, oh, that's the
worst.
Okay, let me you know, let metry something else.
So the breath is anobservational tool and it's
probably one of the first thingsRich, I don't know if you can
vouch for this, but it'sprobably one of the first, most
(44:14):
home or hard hitting resultsthat you notice about ABC is
when you have that firstmaneuver and you have a few
things done, of how much easier,more efficient, lighter, bigger
, longer your breath is yeah,absolutely, it's a.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
It's a really interesting diagnostic tool.
You know, your body isstruggling if it can't take a
deep breath and going back toself.
Being the back of an uber orsomething you know, in a little
prius, because I find thatposition.
I get really anxious in ubersbecause my knees are so high and
well, normally like, yeah, yeah, my knees are high, so I often
(44:53):
hit, sit to the side and and dosome breath work to to calm
myself down there.
But, um, yeah, the, the breath,what you do or the you is about
, is this person breathingmaximally?
Is there something restrictingtheir breath?
And it's a really good telltalesign.
So, yeah, is there anythingelse you want to share, natalie?
Anything else you think wehaven't covered?
Speaker 3 (45:15):
I just think that it's important that people know
that you can change the shape ofyour spine.
It's fascinating how manypeople just don't think that you
can.
There's a lot of young people,particularly that are coming in,
that are kyphotic, so thatmeans they've got that bump on
the back of their neck orthey're really hunched over with
their shoulders becausetechnology has played a bigger
(45:37):
role in their lives than, say,for us, and people just don't
think that that can be changed.
And so really, it's just to saythat it's possible to transform
your spine.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
So there's hope.
Yeah, that's a great message toleave us with.
Thanks for that.
And where do we find you,Natalie?
Speaker 3 (45:59):
So SpiroHealth is in London, in Putney, on the high
street there, and we have agreat website, as I said, with
different resources on it.
We're on Instagram as well atSpiroHealth.
That's my two main channels.
Yeah, we do thesesit-sleep-standing sessions
actually, and we do themvirtually as well, so you can
join from around the world.
(46:20):
Obviously, the time differencemight be an issue, but we do
offer it online and virtuallytoo, which could be quite
beneficial for any questions,and you get to see us
demonstrating on people's bodies.
Speaker 1 (46:31):
And for people not local to London, for people in
California.
I see Jane Baxley at White OakChiropractic in Vacaville and
she's amazing, just like Natalie.
And there is a website isn'tthere, is it ABC?
Where there's like a map forpeople around the world who want
to find local practitioners soit's the abc provider map for me
(46:51):
.
Speaker 3 (46:51):
I'm affiliated to abce, which is abc europe.
I know there's abc australia inaustralia as well, abc
international, so just type itin.
There's a.
There's a great educationalwebsite called
meningialreleasecom, someningialreleasecom.
You can put that in the notes,I'll send it to you yeah, great,
(47:14):
all right.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
Thank you very much, natalie.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Yeah, thanks so much for giving me so much time.
Thanks rich, much appreciated.
Thanks so much.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
In conclusion no, we're not going to do.
In conclusion I really hate itwhen people finish a whatever a
book by saying what you shouldhave.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, as if you're not smartenough to have picked up what
you want to pick up?
Yeah, and also, I think theconclusion is different from for
everyone, isn't it someone?
Might already do all of that,and then they'll be like, oh,
that's good, I'm doingeverything right and I do abc
and my spine's perfect and Isleep perfectly, I stand
perfectly.
But I think a lot of peoplewould have taken some good
(47:59):
nuggets of wisdom from anincredibly intelligent lady.
Speaker 1 (48:02):
So thanks very much to natalie yes, and whilst we
spoke all about the positives ofabc which I mean they are
pretty much all positives Ithink it's also important
because we we are.
We are trying to make this showabout being balanced and not
just being overly salesy andhypey, and hopefully, hopefully
that episode wasn't too salesyand hypey.
(48:24):
But no treatment works foreveryone.
You know this.
This treatment really helped myback, it helped my shoulder,
but it hasn't hasn't helped myhip.
My hip, as I've mentioned, haslost labrum.
It, this treatment haslimitations.
It can't regrow labrum andcartilage, like maybe stem cells
can.
So it's possible that peoplewill try abc and they won't get
(48:45):
as phenomenal benefits as I didand they'll need something else.
But I think it's definitelyworth the try.
It's pretty minimally invasive.
It doesn't require flying tomexico and uh, having being put
under general anesthetic andhaving stem cells.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
It's certainly a lot cheaper than that, as well, I
was disappointed to hear thatbirkenstocks and Crocs are no
good for your feet, because Ifeel like they've both had a
real resurgence over the summer.
Really Well, I don't own either.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
I'm not disappointed.
I'm glad they're very ugly andthey need to go.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
Chefs around the world will be devastated by the
Crocs one yeah, big time.
No, very, very interestingstuff.
Practical tips crocs one yeah,big time.
Um, no, very, very interestingstuff.
Practical tips um.
Go find natalie on instagramand check out those videos on
abc.
They sound really good as aminimum.
Or maybe go and see her atspyro in putney big time.
Speaker 1 (49:36):
All right, thank you andy, thank you natalie, and
thank you listener you find us.
You find us find us oninstagram at the breath geek, at
andy sam and at the breathgeekcom, and on all good podcast
hosting sites.
Brilliant, well done.
Did I get the voiceover gignailed?
Speaker 2 (49:57):
it speak to you next time, bye thanks for listening
bye.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.